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CBI: Forget Scotland's National 'conversation' and get on with running country



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Published Date: 25 March 2008
ONE of Scotland's leading business figures has criticised SNP ministers for wasting their time pushing a "conversation" on independence when they should be growing the economy.
Iain McMillan, the director of CBI Scotland, spoke out as Alex Salmond, the First Minister, prepares for tomorrow's launch of the second phase of his National Conversation, an event designed to involve "civic Scotland" in a discussion about independence.

The CBI chief said he did not want to "snub" the Scottish Government by refusing to take part, but he believed the time would be better served by running Scotland and growing the economy.

His comments came as it emerged several senior figures from Scottish society will not be taking up invitations to attend the launch.

Mr McMillan cannot be there, as he has a prior engagement, while Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, will be absent as the launch clashes with another event.

The first phase of the National Conversation, launched on the Scottish Government's website last August, has attracted 26,000 comments from individuals and organisations across Scotland and the website has recorded 314,000 hits.

Ministers now want to start discussions in a range of organisations about various aspects of independence, to feed these views into a final consultation document.

But Mr McMillan said CBI Scotland had already submitted its response to the consultation on independence, and he saw no reason for the Scottish Government to spend its time asking for more views.

He said: "We are not going to snub the Scottish Government or refuse to take part in this, but I don't think we want to get into a conversation about this.

"Our view is that the devolved government should be getting on with running Scotland and improving the economy, not entering into a debate about the future of Scotland in the Union."

He said the CBI was not persuaded by the case for independence and had made this point to the Scottish Government.

The National Conversation was also derided yesterday by the Labour Party, who claimed it was being met by "complete indifference" by the Scottish people. It published a selection of comments placed on the website by Nationalists and claimed the site was attracting bigots.

Among those cited by Labour is one that defends a call for flag burning, saying "burn that union jack for all of them and for all the men and women of the isles who where made to do the ill deeds for a few greedy people".

Another includes claims that "the English living in Scotland are mostly here to enjoy retirement on the richer pickings they had available to them so let's take control of our own country".

Another says: "When ppl (people] ask me why Scotland is not independent. I always say it will take a nation of millions to hold us back. That nation is England."

The Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said it was clear that "offensive" comments were being posted.

"There is no place for bigotry on a government website, yet the National Conversation website has posted inflammatory comments which have called for the burning of the Union Jack, attacked the Royal Family, our English neighbours and the UK," she said.

A spokeswoman for Mr Salmond said the best way forward was "open debate", and this was what the National Conversation was doing. She said: "Questions about our future need to go beyond government, parliament and the media to include individuals, groups, communities and all political viewpoints."

DRIVE TO GET 'CIVIC SCOTLAND' TALKING
TOMORROW'S launch of the second phase of Alex Salmond's National Conversation is designed to involve so-called "civic Scotland" in the process.

Ministers have invited representatives from Scotland's churches, trade unions, environmental groups, universities and colleges, women's groups and Scotland's business community to an event at Edinburgh University.

Mr Salmond will make an opening speech and then the guests will be invited to join a series of discussion groups.

The groups will focus on the Scottish Government's strategic objectives – a greener, healthier, smarter, safer and stronger, fairer and wealthier Scotland – and individuals can join any group they choose. These workshops are designed to begin a process ministers hope will take place across the country.

Each of the organisations represented tomorrow is then expected to take on the discussion with its "stakeholders", reporting back with a detailed position for the consultation at a later date.


The full article contains 743 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:10:09
Well said, Mr McMillan. Alex Salmond recently said that Scotland is “flourishing” and that “we have everything it takes for a Celtic Lion economy to take off in Scotland” (within the UK). Long on words, short on action; that’s Eck.

And Jackie Baillie is spot on too. Every comment on the SNP’s so-called national conversation website has to be pre-approved by their moderator but quite a few really distasteful ones are being permitted. Here’s another comment which appeared, posted in reference to independence: “However the best bit will be seeing the English go bankrupt over night as they will be unable to keep going without the money from OUR oil. Goodbye England go sponge elswhere!”
2

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:10:33
"....several senior figures from Scottish society..."

Ian Macmillan you is a troy and against independence or indeed greater tax raising powers for Scotland and Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotlandhas another event to attend......

Keep trying hootsman, you'll have to do better than that.

3

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:13:10

1. AM2 - Can you update us on the progress of the Constitutional Review?

I think you unionists are starting to get itchy about the conversation as it progresses from an online consultation into a full nationwide conversation.



4

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 00:14:05
Barely 3 people a day post on that 'national conversation' which is usually little more than a 'nationalist rant'. In total, it has attracted less than 650 posts, less than many articles on the Scotsman or Herald sites.

Hilariously, one SNP MSP recently spent a good ten minutes on Radio 5 plugging the site....and was rewarded with 4 posts that day!
5

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:17:00
Iain McMillan is right to see “no reason for the Scottish Government to spend its time asking for more views”.

But there is a reason. They’re not actually seeking views at all. It’s a propaganda exercise masquerading as a consultation. The SNP’s website refers to it as the “national conversation on independence” and even as a “campaign”. That’s why they want to hold stage-managed public “meetings” at our expense.

The forum threads are introduced by SNP ministers and dominated by nationalist activists and diehards, who respond in vehement rhetorical terms to virtually every post in which someone dares to express a non-independence viewpoint. They’re seeking to drown out any possibility of measured exchanges of views. So people like me who might be involved in genuine debate have opted simply to have nothing to do with it.
6

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 00:17:35
I missed this bit on my first read!

"The first phase of the National Conversation, launched on the Scottish Government's website last August, has attracted 26,000 comments from individuals and organisations across Scotland and the website has recorded 314,000 hits."

Are these the SNP's figures as I don't count 26,000 here!:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/a-national-conversation/Tell-us/commentIssue
7

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:23:08

CBI's Offical Response to The National Conservation
tinyurl.com/2x5myh

AM2, the National Conversation is far wider than just the forums and you know it, this next phase will bring it further into community and civic groups to have their say more fully on specific topics ranging from greater powers through to what independence might actually mean.

Your continual bleating will fall on deaf ears, people want to take part in this and will have every opportunity to do so.

8

,

25/03/2008 00:25:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

blueguru,

US 25/03/2008 00:29:40
How can the SNP grow the economy as long as Gordon Brown and his lackies are doing everything in their power to destroy it. No, independence is a very necessary first step. Take off your blue spectacles Mr McMillan.
10

The Daleks,

Longmen 25/03/2008 00:32:40
We solicited some anti-SNP rhetoric from a Tory businessman which we have printed above and tried to pass off as a story.

We realise that you probably just ignore this one sided negative nonsense now, but we're obliged to stick it in anyway.
11

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:33:34

AM2

The Quote below is from the opening page of the Online Consultation Website ...... yet you continue to claim that the conversation only considers independence.

Go on, put your tuppence in, I know your a secret federalist in your heart of hearts......

______________________________

The Government suggests that there are three principal choices to be considered in the National Conversation:

* Continuing with the current constitutional settlement with no or minimal change
* Extending devolved power in Scotland in areas identified during the National Conversation
* Taking the steps to allow Scotland to become a fully independent country

The National Conversation about Scotland's future is now under way. The people of Scotland are invited to join in - it will be up to them to make the final decision

_____________________________

12

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:35:38

The real question, given the recent poll findings for support for greater powers is what will the Liberals do when the SNP propose a second question in the Referendum Bill?

Can the liberals afford to vote against this?

They are plummeting in every poll that comes up, they need to get onboard with this and salvage something form the tories and labour......



13

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:35:47
#7 Wardog

Have their say? Aye, right! Opinion polls show that only a relatively small minority of voters favour independence over devolution, but the SNP haven't changed their policy! Are you seriously suggesting that this is a genuine "conversation" and not a monologue? If so, why do the SNP call it a "campaign"?
14

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:38:39
#11 Wardog

Please don't misrepresent me. I didn't say that. What I actually said was that there are specific subforums within the “Down to Detail” section only for “an independent Scotland” and for “extending devolution”. Other options are not entertained. Given that multi-option opinion polls generally show combined support for the status quo or returning powers to Westminster at a higher level than support for independence, I think that’s fairly presumptuous!
15

subrosa,

25/03/2008 00:38:40
Ah Mr McMillan of the CBI speaks for Scotland's business community. Well he doesn't speak for me and I'm part of it.

As Wardog said this will progress to all communities and forums not just the internet.

As for insulting comments AM2 just take a wee look at the Telegraph or Times when an article about Scotland is written. It's unfortunate some people cannot discuss without insult and tit for tat actions are used, but then didn't we all learn them in the playground.

I'm waiting for Ms Alexander to announce her heid bummer tomorrow. Gordon thinks there should be change...
16

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:39:22

#13 AM2

Read my posts at 11 + 12

It's highly likely that a second question regarding greater powers will be included in any referendum bill put forward.

These powers will be gleaned from the consultation process.

Your so blinded by a fixation on independence that you can't see the creeping tide of greater powers, full fiscal autonomy.......


17

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:40:30

#14 Grasping at straws, show us your polls that give support for the status quo.
18

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:42:21
#16 Wardog

This is a thread about the so-called National Conversation. Your crystal ball gazing is irrelevant.
19

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 00:42:44
11. Have there been any polls published in the past 4 days that show there has actually been some sort of increase in suppoort for independence? The nats are all very excited again....but over what?

The last poll I saw last month showed support for independence was DOWN 2% since May 07. It also showed support for staying in the UK was UP 5% since May 07. And that's after 11 months of Salmond picking one ridiculous fight after another with Westminster!

Then there was the SNP admitting that only 0.5% of Scotland has actually bothered to read that much-publicised flagship manifesto pledge that is the 'White Paper on Independence'.

Then there is this bizarre claim that 26,000 posts have been submitted to the 'National Conversation' when the site itself clearly shows little more than 700 in over nine months.

Then there are the last three polls that showed that the SNP's 'honeymoon' lead has eroded from 11% in Nov, to 9% in Jan. It is now down again to just 7% this month.

I still cannot see where this evidence of any increase in support for independence is!!
20

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:45:03

#18 Show us your polls that give support for the status quo.
21

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 00:46:27
20. What do YOU think support for independence is?
22

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:49:07
#17 #20 Wardog

Some from the past year...

17 Apr 2007 (Populus/Times)
Independence 15%
Status quo or return powers 23%

30 Apr 2007 (Populus/Times)
Independence 21%
Status quo or return powers 17%

19 Aug 2007 (YouGov/Sunday Times)
Independence 23%
Status quo or return powers 29%

16 Mar 2008 (MRUK/Sunday Times)
Independence 23%
Status quo or return powers 31%
23

,

25/03/2008 00:52:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 00:53:06

21. I've posted many times about what I think independence in but at the moment, I'm more interested in greater powers for holyrood, something that AM2 purposely avoids in his polarised post. and something which the majority of scots want.

22. And how many want greater powers AM2?

Your attempts at hiding the prevailing mood are pathetic

25

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:53:28
#19 Highland Mighty

The "314,000 hits" claim is nonsense too. In internet parlance, a "hit" just means a file download from a web server. It could any type of file and each webpage typically comprises quite a few such files.

For example, the page to which you linked in post #6 contains 1 HTML file, 2 stylesheets, 1 javascript file, 1 icon and 16 images. That's 21 hits counted each time a person views that page.

If that was typical the 314,000 hits would correspond to only about 15,000 actual pageviews (which would make posting 26,000 comments impossible). Typical SNP innumeracy.
26

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 00:53:31
22. The pro-UK %'s seem a bit low!

How about this one from this Jan (compared to May 07)?

If there were a referendum on whether to retain the Scottish Parliament and Executive in more or less their present form or to establish Scotland as a completely separate state outside the United Kingdom how would you vote?

In favour of retaining the present Scottish Parliament: 57% (+5%)
In favour of a completely separate state outside the UK: 27% (-2%)
27

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 00:59:06
#24 Wardog

Now you're switching the topic. You expressed doubt at my statement that opinion polls generally show combined support for the status quo or returning powers to Westminster at a higher level than support for independence. So I demonstrated that it's true. That was the purpose of post #22. I wasn't "hiding" anything! It just wasn't directly relevant.

I have posted several times that the as yet undefined option of greater devolved powers within the UK tends to command around 65% support. You've been present on threads when I've posted that. Please stop posturing. Play clean.
28

,

25/03/2008 01:00:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 01:02:30
#27 self

Correction: 65% is devolution, total.
30

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 01:04:29
#26 Highland Mighty

It seems I've confused you too. Sorry. OK, here's the most recent poll...

16 March 2008: MRUK/Sunday Times

• 23% wanted complete independence from the UK.
• 45% favoured more devolved powers but not independence.
• 22% favoured the current devolution arrangements.
• 9% wanted fewer powers or the Scottish Parliament to be abolished.

31

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 01:05:01
Anyway, enough. Goodnight all.
32

,

25/03/2008 01:07:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

Wardog,

Buckie 25/03/2008 01:10:08

16 March 2008: MRUK/Sunday Times

And if you don't support independence, in what circumstances would you consider supporting it?

If Alex Salmond really impresses as First Minister 29

If UK government cuts Scotland's share of public spending 29

If Conservatives win the next UK general election 24

If Labour wins next UK general election 20

For other reasons 5


Not looking very good for the status quo then AM2.

Like I've already posted, it's most likely that a second question will be included on the referendum bill in 2011...... but the scope of powers will be closer to the Liberals Fedarlist Fiscal Autonomy than the 'take back power' option of Labour.



34

Highland Mighty,

25/03/2008 01:18:23
33. Salmond has sky-high ratings, yet support for independence is STILL in the 20s.
Salmond has been constantly accusing the UK of 'the tightest' budget, yet support is STILL in the 20s.
The Tories are looking good to win the next election, yet support is STILL in the 20s.

Yep, the Union is very much under threat.
35

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 01:35:33
#25

A "hit" is a request for a webpage. The javascripts, stylesheets, images, and other includes do not contribute to the hit count in any web stats software I have ever come across in my eight years of web development (each of these components may have their own hit counts, in some packages, but those counts are frankly uninteresting).
36

Richard,

west lothian 25/03/2008 01:38:48

Highland Mighty,

So you'll be lobbying every unionist M.S.P./M.P./M.E.P. for a referendum a.s.a.p?

I don't think so. I wonder why?

Singed the petition yet?

HAHAHAHA!
37

W Smith,

Middle East 25/03/2008 01:48:03
Iain McMillan is a biased unionist but he's also correct on this issue.

After being elected selling us the story that Scotland's economy should be like Ireland's Alex Salmond wastes time prattling on about, or doing, the following:

1) James McFaddens goal against France.
2) Celtics holy goalie 'right' to cross himself.
3) Acts of Settlement.
4) Berwick-upon-Tweed.
5) Iraq War.
6) Trident.
7) Guatanamo Bay.
8) Writing a respectfully worded letter to probably the most brutal regime on earth - the Iranian government.
9) Writing a respectfully worded letter to Mugabe while inflation at over 2000% in Zimbabwe doesn't even get a mention in the letter!

and so on and now two salaries, Lexus driving Salmond wants to spend even more time prattling on about independence.

Any chance of Salmond and his sidekicks doing any work real for a change?

Alex Marie Antoinette Salmond is beginning to like the lazy middle class Leftie that he is.

(If the Zimbabweans don't have bread let them read Salmonds anti-Trident letter!)

Lets 'chat', lets 'discuss', lets have a 'conversation', lets have 'dialogue'

LETS NOT DO ANY FRIGGIN WORK!
38

Edward,

25/03/2008 02:24:23
#4 Highland Mighty
Obviously counting is a bit of aproblem with you,or your not looking at the right website!
There are currently 9 blogs in the conversation website
(http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/a-national-conversation/Tell-us/Blog)
The main one regarding Scotlands future is currently standing at 1816 messages
39

Edward,

25/03/2008 02:30:34
This will be the same Iain McMillan of the CBI that signed up to Gordon Browns all for the Union letter in the run up to the Scottish Elections
Not exactly non political is Iain McMillan
40

Edward,

25/03/2008 02:34:07
#14 AM2
'Given that multi-option opinion polls generally show combined support for the status quo or returning powers to Westminster '
So which planet would that be on???
You obviously dont actually notice the opinion polls that state the MAJORITY want either independence or increased powers for Holyrood and hardly anyone wants status quo, as for returning powers to Westminster, it just doesnt register!
So cyou making up your own opinion polls then??
Get real AM2 and start discussing fgacts instead of your own mytholigy
41

Edward,

25/03/2008 02:37:26
AM2, why do you ignore the polls that have the SNP riding high in the polls for both Scottish Elections and General Elections or the polls which show that Alex Salmond as the highest every approval rating of any political leader north or south of the border?
Your use of percentages is amusing, it interesting that you omit the percentage for increased powers, does it not fit in with your arguement
42

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 02:45:34
The confederation of BRITISH industry doesn't like the idea of independence. What a shock!
43

Castaway,

25/03/2008 02:50:55
#30 - That poll is misleading like all the polls you quote because they do not follow the question the Scottish Government is proposing to put in a referendum to the Scottish people.
The Scottish Governments preferred option is to ask Scots whether they agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
Using the above - TNS System Three poll carried out in late November 2007
The questions asked are the ones the Scottish Government is proposing to put to the voters in referendum with those polled having the choice of either I AGREE or I DO NOT AGREE also included was the option DON'T KNOW the actual result was:-
I agree -40%
I do not agree -44%
Don't know-16%
TNS System Three poll from Aug 2007 when for the same questions the result was:-
I agree - 35%
I do not agree - 50%
Don't know - 15%

So the preferred referendum question is independendance or the status quo ie the present Scottish Parliament, now let the polls you are quoting ask that question ?
44

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 03:08:15
I wonder if Iain McMillan would like to comment on why Scotland 'enjoys' a lower growth rate than the rest of the UK?

Surely rather than expressing an opinion about a constitutional question and debate he should be concentrating on helping the Government grow the economy.

He has had a long time to express his views about Scotland's lagging economy, to suggest that the SNP are taking their eyes off the ''economic ball' after decades of lacklustre unionist economic performance is a bit rich.

Can he provide some eveidence that this debate is going to detract from Economic growth? - nope just a bit of speculation given front page billing by the usual suspects at the Scotsman.
45

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 25/03/2008 03:49:04
Forget 'conversation' and get on with running country, says CB
------------------------------------------

Right on McMillan Dude.

The SNP leader Alex Salmond is a great squawker, but so far that is all he is .

As we say in the US 'money talks and b*ll sh*t walks'.

Hey Dude light a fire under the SNP's a*s. .

If the SNP crave independence, then show the people of Scotland how U they the SNP can and did grow, the Scots economy from say current 2% to 5% per year for the next 5 years.

They would then, have earned the right to Independence and the sustainability of that independence.

STOP the political Squawking it leads nowhere.
Happy Haggis Day

GC
46

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 25/03/2008 05:58:49
How foolish - how utterly foolish - this man is supposed to be smart, a leader of commerce. Did he really thing the Gnats were interested in growing the economy? Or acheiving anything else real for that matter?

A "conversation on independence"? More like talking to a brick wall - but hey - its painted tartan!
47

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 25/03/2008 06:07:41
What a bore this whole concept is... Its like being accosted by the drunk that staggers in front of you at Waverley station... "Ye know - we need independence , no really - where you goan? I wiz sayin... C'moan - listen, listen - this is a Conversayshun buddy and Ham talking!...."

How much of a need to get on with real life are the Gnats gonna ignore? We need government, not a half-wit inebriate trying to MAKE you have a talk that you are just not intereted in.

Sober up fatty and get on with the job your are drawing a salary for.
48

Viewfromwales,

Abertawe 25/03/2008 06:28:09
I think that the Scottish CBI need to stop thinking in such narrow and short-term ways.

The Scottish Government does not need to stop its economic policy in order to conduct the national conversation!

The constitutional,social,cultural and economic future of Scotland are linked - and all will benefit from independence.
49

inoui,

Bangkok 25/03/2008 06:38:04
Wouldn't need a National Conversation if there were no Anglofile motivated parties in Scotland. Do well outside UK just like every other country.
50

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 25/03/2008 06:44:36
Independence is the ONLY real policy the SNP has, so it must talk about it.

That it divides its supporters by adding in all the other rubbish (ie LIT) is a sign that it has lost its focus.
51

Bob Christie,

25/03/2008 06:47:49
Confederation of BRITISH Industry!

Says it all really. THEIR mind is already made up.

Time to set up a Confederation of Scottish Industry now that CBI has thrown its toys out of the pram.
52

beckypumps1,

Fife 25/03/2008 07:00:27
Another slow news day.Not to worry the comedy half hour is always fun to read.
53

Media 1,

cape town 25/03/2008 07:04:33
I have been saying it for months. Salmond needs to run Scotland within the context of her current position in the union.
Salmond should be running Scotland as a leader, not running around the world singing an independence warcry on behalf of a nation who have not yet had a referendum on the issue.
I get the distinct impression that a referendum AGAINST independence would not change Salmond's approach. Even if Scotland voted against independence, Salmond would continue to fight for it regardless that the majority were against it. That is the bottom line, Salmond is about Salmond, he is a freedom fighter fighting for freedom in a country that is already free.
He must either get on with governance or leave.
54

Nikostratos,

25/03/2008 07:10:36
Free the............. SHETLANDS NOW............
55

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 07:12:35
#35 Aqwes

You're mistaken about the meaning of "hit". Read any of the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_%28web_request%29
http://www.marketingterms.com/dictionary/hit/
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/hit.html
56

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 07:16:25
#43 Castaway

The SNP government wishes to limit people's choices. The opposition parties will never sanction that kind of undemocratic question. And anyway, I note that you exclude the latest single-option survey, which in January showed support for independence, even when a simple yes/no question was posed, down to 27%.

57

Media 1,

cape town 25/03/2008 07:23:53
The people of Scotland must decide, that is the most democratic way to sort out the issue on independence.
Salmond should be pushing hard for a referendum without even mentioning the word independence! By mentioning independence he is suggesting that is what the people want...He has no right to assume that the people want independence, he must therefore, wait until the people have decided.
By roaming the world on tax payers money belting out a warcry on independence, he is behaving like a dictator who chooses NOT to listen to what the people want.
He must govern Scotland, not forget about Scotland to chase a personal dream.
I dont think he can do that though, I said before, Salmond appears to be the sort of man who would dismiss the results of a referendum unless they suited his agenda.
58

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 25/03/2008 07:25:42
#40 Edward

You seem to think that people having a general predisposition towards a Mk II version of devolution in which more decisions are taken at Holyrood-level is part of some kind of natural progression towards independence.

You're wrong, and you only have to look at the wording of the Scottish parliament motion which established the Constitutional Commission to see why. Each of the three unionist parties now evidently thinks that the time is right to look at increasing the Scottish parliament's fiscal accountability, but they're no less committed to the Union as a result! You're grasping at straws, as you'll see for yourself in due course.
59

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/03/2008 07:36:59
If any readers are pressed for time, allow me to summarise the CBI's position on this matter, and indeed on every other matter they ever comment on:

"MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY! WANT MONEY! MORE MONEY! DON'T CARE WHERE IT COMES FROM OR HOW WE GET IT! MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY! MONEY!"
60

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/03/2008 07:37:31
"PS: MONEY!"
61

eric,

25/03/2008 07:37:37
Labour gave SNP Scotland on a Plate .Labour left the Country in a mess,Glad Scotland has woken up to it before English ,Roll on the elections in England.
62

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 25/03/2008 07:46:38
It does not say much for a leading businessman that he is against strategic assessment, forward planning, and testing the market. If his members adopted that attitude there would be small chance of their own economies growing.
63

Media 1,

cape town 25/03/2008 07:48:07
Rev S Campbell

Encase you havent noticed, Money makes the world go round. Money is the MOST important thing in the world.

Independence, Independence, Independence is all that Salmond preaches. You may want to ask why that is the case, when the people of Scotland have not even had a referendum on the issue yet. The word meglomaniac springs to mind
64

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 07:49:03
Around 14 posts in 7 hours by AM2.
Around 14 days no posts re Wendys wee scandal by AM2.

It's similar to an old football chant "You only post when (you think) your'e winning.
65

brownlie,

Glasgow 25/03/2008 07:52:06
47 Stephen
When did you bump in George Foulkes in Waverley station? He never mentions you at all?
66

Bob Christie,

A Referendum NOW! 25/03/2008 07:54:57
#57 Media in Cape Town wrote:

"Salmond should be pushing hard for a referendum without even mentioning the word independence!"

I see Salmond is just to say "let's have a referendum" but not what it is to be about.

Well that may be the you South Africans do things but, if you lived here you would know that that is not our way.
The ENTIRE SNP and those who support it are pressing hard for a referendum as we speak.

It is ONLY being prevented by the cringe-worthy unionists who fear the result.

BTW: judging by one of your postings yesterday on the state of things un your country, would not your time be more usefully spent on trying to effect change there and leave us who live HERE to try and make our country better?
67

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 25/03/2008 07:56:04
The SNP could, by now, have run an indicative independence referendum had it really been serious about seeking 'freedom'. That it hasn't is surely proof it knows it would lose- after all only 15% Scots adults supported it at the last election. We 85% Scots are not daft!
68

walter,

25/03/2008 08:01:39
Do you agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

Result majority disagree.

Next Scottish election and another referendum as the previous question was for the previous administration to negotiate.

Loaded questions.
69

Colkitto,

River Clyde 25/03/2008 08:04:47
McMillan is an out and out unionist.
70

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 25/03/2008 08:04:53
Are New New Labour having a conference in Scotland this week?

Let's see previous conferences brought forth such mince as:

Under the SNP, Scotland would

Suffer environmental Collapse in Scotland

Become a base for international terrorism.

Create mass migration out of Scotland

Have armed border guards at Gretna Green.

and of course the chestnut, every family in Scotland would be £5000 per year worse off.


The Scottish Government must be doing something right if the amount of bile shown here is proportionate to the dependence junkies fear that their scaremongering is falling apart.
71

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 25/03/2008 08:05:47
#68 Walter, meant to ask, how did your council tax freeze go?
72

Bob Christie,

25/03/2008 08:11:43
#67 writes:
" The SNP could, by now, have run an indicative independence referendum had it really been serious about seeking 'freedom'. "

And YOU would have been the first to squeal about the "waste of public funds" to get a result binding on neither side.

Get real!
73

walter,

25/03/2008 08:13:23
#71
Why would you ask me that.
74

brownlie,

glasgow 25/03/2008 08:20:08
67 Rules
You cannot be 85% Scottish - you can be 50%, 25%, 12 1/2% but not 85% unless you are a mutation.
75

Iain Percival,

Black Isle 25/03/2008 08:22:43
Couldn't agree more; effectively running a country / economy takes more than chatting. Anyone who heard Salmond's address to the graduation ceremony at the Uni of St. Andrews last November would realise he is so long on rhetoric and so short on reality. For example, "Scotland's universities are the envy of the world" - er, no, wrong. Unbelieveable chit chat (actually, crap) from the leader of a government not willing or able to address the funding requirements of Scottish universities struggling to make a mark in a globalised market. We need actionable, measurable plans - not conversations and rhetoric. By the way, applicable to politicians and parties on both sides of the border!!
76

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/03/2008 08:22:56
#63 "Encase you havent noticed, Money makes the world go round. Money is the MOST important thing in the world."

May the Lord have mercy on your empty soul if that's what you truly believe. On our current path, money is what's going to STOP the world going round, at least in as far as humankind is able to observe it doing so.

You can't eat money, it doesn't keep you warm, it doesn't protect you from wild beasts and it doesn't keep the rain off your head. The obscenity of greed that is modern capitalism will destroy this planet for humans within 50 years, and we've got nowhere else to go. If you have children or grandchildren, I pity them as I pity everyone else's in the world two generations from now.
77

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:25:06
ahem..

"Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 25/03/2008 07:56:04
The SNP could, by now, have run an indicative independence referendum had it really been serious about seeking 'freedom'. That it hasn't is surely proof it knows it would lose- after all only 15% Scots adults supported it at the last election. We 85% Scots are not daft!"

As opposed to the less than 15% that voted labour or for any other party?. I'm glad you put yourself in the same boat as the neanderthals who can't be bothered voting. You share their complete lack of aspiration. But we all knew that.
78

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:28:40
Rev S Campbell. I know youve got to consider the less fortunate amongst us but please don't give media 1 any succour. He is a class-A ratbag.

Media 1's assertion does show how twisted a world view he has though. But we all knew that.
79

DaveK,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 08:29:08
#77 Exactly. Salmond and his lot are big on rhetoric and short on action depsite the so called "changes" brought in since their skin of the a*se "Victory". I was more victorious last time I went to the loo. If they had the courage of their convictions they would have put "Freedom" to the people to vote on it, they didn't, they knew and know that they will lose and thus their analogica entis is basically no more.
80

Ken S.,

Reading 25/03/2008 08:29:47
The politician elected in your country to govern my country reckons the Union is a good thing. Some readers disagree with him:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/25/do2501.xml&posted=true&_requestid=129365

However, I'm sure all on this site are wholeheartedly with our illustrious PM on this topic ;-)
81

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:30:21
#75

Did Salmond say that?

Got a link for that?

Aye, complete $hite

82

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:30:38
#75

Did Salmond say that?

Got a link for that?

Aye, complete $hite

83

Ken,

25/03/2008 08:31:03
AM2,
Knew you would not let me down. Churning out the same old unionist propoganda :-)
Polls are different, I could quote one that had more than 50% for independence/fiscal autonomy etc, you can quote ones that are 27% etc...
The fact is that we are going forward, the country is starting to feel confident, especially with the snp government. Independence will come, sooner or later. Enjoy the journey AM2!
84

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 25/03/2008 08:31:07
The SNP are focusing on the economy.Jim Mathers Enterprise Minister points out that sustainable economic growth is the main priority and that the Government aims to create the best possible environment for business and personal success.There is a lot of evidence piling up that they are succeeding.For example:

1)Lloyds TSB survey of business shows that the proportion of companies hiring more staff has increased under the SNP government.

2) The Gaurdian today points out that the SNP have created a spirit of entrpreneurialism.They inform us that in October-December 2007 more than 25,000 new business accounts were opened(a 6.7% increase over the same period in 2006).They also cited anecdotal evidence that expats are coming home because they are encouraged by the performance of the SNP government.

When we get headlines referring to an expert,there is a need for the journalist to do some research and not to present the opinion of one "expert" as fact,or representative of all of the business community.In fact there are many leading experts in business and economics who are satisfied with the SNP governments performance and do see the opportunities offered by an independent Scotland.I believe in freedom of the press,but with freedom comes responsabilities.There is a need to create balance by examing all points of view and evidence.

The tasks for the SNP are to govern well(which they are already doing) and to inform the Scottish voters about the difference between what can be delivered by an independent country in Europe and a Regional government in Edinburgh.I welcome a political party that engages in actively listening to people.For so many years I had to put up with political representatives who were not remotely interested in what I felt,or wanted.

The latest opinion polls are actually very encouraging.There is a very large group that are open to persuasion, and could vote yes to independence.Nothing is certain but I think that the public behavior of some
85

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:31:08
#75

Did Salmond say that?

Got a link for that?

Aye, complete $hite

86

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:31:10
#75

Did Salmond say that?

Got a link for that?

Aye, complete $hite

87

voltaire's janny,

25/03/2008 08:32:57
Growing the economy while still attached to perfidious Albion is like pi$$ing in a pot with a hole in it.

No doubt the CBI is against independence. Like any institution it thrives, needs and wants growth for that is how to grease their own palms. After all top-cats are paid on organisational size, not achievement, merit or execution.

88

Linda,

Edinburgh 25/03/2008 08:35:40
Dinosaurs in CBI obviously don't realise that Scottish economy cannot get any financial advantage until such time aas the Scottish Parliament has full fiscal autonomy or independence.

The National Conversation considers all options., he should read it as opposed to threr Unionist Review which does not consider all the options and any proposals will be vetted by a Gordon Brown approved Chairman.
89

Media 1,

cape town 25/03/2008 08:37:58
Bob Christie

I do live in Scotland, albeit 3 to 4 months per annum.
SA has been home for many years, its an awesome country, it has economy, infrastructure and wealth in abundance, but sadly the ANC Freedom Fighters cannot run a nation so its falling apart as we speak. But that is not my concern, I will make all the money I can until its time to move to Brisbane.
In terms of Scotland, which is what this thread is about. The SNP are not governing as they should be.

There is no way you can tell me that Salmond is the right man for the job. He is a freedom fighter, not a politician. He should be governing Scotland within the context of the union, and doing what he can to ensure that Scotland continues as an affluent and powerful nation.
I dont mind Salmond shouting loud for a referendum. I dont mind that at all. I want Salmond to shout LOUD for a referendum, but he isnt. He is shouting loud for independence. He mentions referendum from time to time, but he isnt pushing for it because he fears it may not turn out the way he wants it to.

And do me a favour! Look at Salmond, are you telling me that he would accept a negative response to independence? Cmon, he will NEVER accept that because he is a F R E E D O M fighter, fighting for freedom in an already liberated nation.
90

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 25/03/2008 08:38:31
Thanks for the link Ken S

Here is a little gem for the all the unionists:-

"Five million work-shy, loud mouthed spongers with their begging bowls constantly shoved in the face of decent, hard working English folk. That is the reality of Union. It means nothing to me.
Posted by Barry Field on March 25, 2008 12:48 AM"

can you feel the love?