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Couples opt for humanist weddings as appeal of the church wanes



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Published Date: 21 July 2008
MORE and more couples are choosing humanist weddings over religious ceremonies because they have little connection with a church, a celebrant said last night.
Figures released yesterday show humanist weddings are on the increase while overall marriage figures are in decline.

The General Register Office for Scotland said the number of marriages conducted by the Humanist Society of Scotland (HSS) has ri
sen for the third year running – despite only being made legal three years ago.

In 2007, the HSS conducted 710 legal marriages, up on the 434 in 2006.

The previous year-on-year rise in 2006 was 429 per cent (from 82 to 434), although humanist weddings were only made legal in June 2005.

Meanwhile, since 2005 the number of weddings conducted by the Catholic Church has fallen by 3 per cent while those conducted by the Church of Scotland have fallen by 13 per cent.

Jim Petherick, the HSS convener, said: "We're delighted to see confirmation of what we've known for many years, that humanism offers a coherent ethical structure that lets people take responsibility for their own lives."

And Ron McLaren, vice-convener of HHS, who has conducted more than 40 humanist weddings, said he was not surprised that humanist weddings were becoming so popular.

"The main reasons we are seeing this increase is that there has been a major decline in church attendance and young people feel a bit awkward in engaging with a minister of religion when they don't attend church.

"Around 50 per cent of the 16-24 age group profess to having no religion in their lives.

"As to the ceremonies themselves everyone tends to be delighted because they are so very personal.

"We have no religion or dogma and the service is dictated by the couple themselves. There are no hymns or prayers and the only prescribed part is the legal wording.

"This allows couples to write their own poems and choose music which means a lot to them. One of the most unusual choices was the Proclaimers' I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles) but Morecambe and Wise's Bring Me Sunshine has proved popular."

The HSS has risen from 12th to fourth most popular option for weddings.

Although classified by the registrar-general as a form of religious marriage, humanism is not a religion, but a secular philosophy or belief system.

One advantage humanist weddings have over others is that they do not require the venue to be licensed but can take place anywhere deemed "safe and decent".

Humanist weddings have taken place in hotels and castles beaches, back gardens and the summit of Ben Nevis.

Overall there were 29,866 marriages conducted in Scotland in 2007. Of these 15,480 were civil marriages and 14,381 were religious ceremonies.

Freedom to choose your own vows

GINA and Paul Marshall chose a humanist wedding ceremony at Guthrie Castle near Forfar on St Valentine's Day this year because it allowed the couple the freedom to choose their own vows.

Both had been married before and Mr Marshall, 47, had been undergoing treatment for cancer.

The marketing and management consultant said: "We had both done the politically-correct family weddings in church but this time, with neither of us being particularly religious, we wondered what else was around.

"We considered a Celtic marriage which led us through the internet to our local humanist celebrant.

"Everything in the ceremony was written by us and it took us three to four weeks which gave us the chance to personalise it and include family and friends, including my two sons.

"It was an emotional day for us and the ceremony added to making it special because there was none of the pomp and circumstance of a traditional wedding.

"We had appointed a friend as a sort of 'master of ceremonies' but he threw away the timetable, saying the wedding was about us and he was totally correct."



The full article contains 660 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/07/2008 00:49:33

Maybe Church Weddings will die out in future generations, but I guarantee ask 100 girls their dream of marriage, and 80% would say,..

"Walking down the Isle in a White Dress, looking Beautiful"

Don't be fooled by this article, I am correct!! and defy anyone to argue this!!

These days its the more, 'Living Together' without any marriage, is more a truism, than anything else!

DYW, and I lived together quite happily for 6years, then that, 'little girls dream' had to be fulfilled for my DYW, albeit at the registry office, next best thing to a church wedding, but the 'Glamour' she had, in her 'Wedding Dress',...

If I had said,...

"How about the 'Hearts Football Ground' Love",?

She would of Divorced Me! :))
2

Pocket Dictionary,

21/07/2008 04:49:34
I've never seen the point of having a church wedding if you don't attend church. The ministers who refused couples a ceremony when they never came to church were quite right to do so. Same with Baptising the weans.

What's the point if you don't intend to bring the kids to church?
3

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/07/2008 07:10:22
A humanist wedding doesn't mean a. the bride can't dress up and be escorted down an aisle by a proud (and much poorer) daddy. b. that the event must lack any spiritual dimension. We've attended both recently and been very moved and impressed by the profound respect for what the events are all about.

It is hypocrisy to be wed/buried via a church if you don't believe in its teachings.
4

Beth Boyle,

NY 21/07/2008 08:28:19
I had a church wedding 28 years ago and already then most people I knew had outdoor weddings or weddings someplace other than a Church. I got married in the Church I had attended all my life though. The best part was celebrating with friends and loved ones and that is probably true of most weddings were ever they are performed.
5

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/07/2008 08:31:01
The irony of this being that Humanism is a religion, 90% of which is lifted from the New Testament, otherwise why bother defining yourself as a humanist at all?

The 10% of humanism which doesn't come from the New testament is concerned with elevating human beings, and their rights to behave how they want so long as they've thought it through to a kind of god like status, and it's this 10% which could undermine the whole of the rest of the creed.

Ultimately the right to be an individual as espoused by humanism conflict with societal living.

Secondly it is essentially a materialist creed (if not in purpose then in fact), inherently sceptical about any reason for life. There is nothing more undignifying than unfettered materialism.

My aunt and uncle are effectively Humanist missionaries, and trust me - I'd rather speak to religious nutters. Humanism is something for misguided Grauniad readers only.
6

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 21/07/2008 08:39:10
We did the church thing. Ach it was nice, regardless of the religious aspect. Church buildings are rather nice in the main and always in a nice location too.

It's like anything else, church weddings will go out of fashion then come back in when everybody regards it as "quaint" and "something different from the norm".
7

hertscot,

21/07/2008 08:41:58
#7
As an atheist, I agree that Humanism looks and feels religious, however everything you spout after that is mince!
8

onecoleslaw,

21/07/2008 09:40:34
I'm having a humanist ceremony later this year, and I also get an aisle. So best of both really.
9

onecoleslaw,

21/07/2008 09:49:39
#9 Agreed.

The whole point of humanism is that it's not a religion and doesn't have any rules.
10

Thistledhu,

21/07/2008 09:58:35
lets face it. it is weddings funerals and christenings that give the clergy the influence that they have in community's

I doubt any of the churche's will enjoy reading this article
11

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 21/07/2008 10:01:31
11

True, Humanism has not fixed set of "rules" but they do have guiding priciples and morallity. Otherwise, something without rules or boundaries is anarchic - something the humanism is most certainly not!
12

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/07/2008 10:13:15
#9, it's very sad that something as vacuous, as purposeless, as auto erot*c and self centred as humanism is gaining credence.

Not mince - fact. Humanism goes hand in hand with all the other great ills of our society - particularly consumerism.

It's not big enough to be a threat because it's still a minority faith, but that'll change if the numerous, aggressive arch secularists (who, by the way, have hijacked a faith which is supposedly neutral on the existence of God)get their way, which they might, for a period, before people realise how wrong these people are!
13

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

21/07/2008 10:23:48
Well , this is rather a nice advert for Humanist weddings.

I had one too. My tip today is that if you want a REAL humanist wedding, do your own vows, get your own "co-ordinator" and dont give these people money (200 pounds) for showing up and basically doing what you tell them to do.

Marriage between two people should consist of vows and a ceremony which they want.

I've no complaints really , it was fine, but it just seems pointless to give them money !
14

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

21/07/2008 10:24:48
14 Any right thinking moral atheist can see through this garbage.
15

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 21/07/2008 11:00:35
Sheldon The Crack Dealer.

You should sell more crack and smoke less then use the money to purchase some books. Then read more and hopefully rid yourself of much of your ignorance.

Religions have a common strain. Believe in a GOD.

You are confusing morality with religion.

Your fear is clear for all to see. You worship a false idol and you are scared you have wasted time.

Humanism is 90% like the new testament?? without God, Heaven, Angels, jesus, hell, devil, virgin birth, etc, etc.

You mean it is about people. Humans. It was not supposed to be cryptic.
16

Mikey,

21/07/2008 11:13:22
I got married in a Druidic ceremony in Saughton Park Rose Gardens. Wife wore white wedding fress and all the normal trimmings.

We're not religious so it never even occurred to us to have a church wedding. And we're still together!
17

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/07/2008 11:53:10
In times of moral decline, and failing societies man will eventually return to God. We may be side tracked by debates on female Bishops and Homosexuality, but in the end the Bible did state marriage is between a man and a woman and that women should not be Bishops - all of these aspects being infront of God. These are point of fact. Thus marriage can only exist in the eyes of God when approved in a Godly manner, i.e. in a church. Those who seek humanist weddings are offending God and are nothing other than blasphemers and heretics and their reward will come through the fires of Hell.

18

Miss Pixie,

formerly of Dinleyhaughfoot Cottage, Roxburghshire 21/07/2008 11:59:23
#18, Mikey: What on earth is a wedding "fress"?????
19

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 12:26:08
Weddings are important and people should have the right to marry without mention of the god entity or that Jesus chap.

I dont believe in the god entity, and I am happy that it doesnt exist. Can you imagine that monster visiting our planet? He has already murdered 2.5 million in the ficticious book known as the bible, imagine what horror he could cause in the real world?
20

Amberlite,

Ayr 21/07/2008 12:42:48
Great news! Always thought its up to the couple marrying, do exactly what they want, not forced to bow to the "traditional" members of our society. Anyway you cant please people can you? On one hand they moan about "co-habiting", ooooh how awful! Then, when more people are deciding to marry a different way.....they still moan.
21

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/07/2008 12:45:57
17 Here Today

More homophobic and anti-feminist bullsh*t from a close-minded bigot. Take you hate and prejudice elsewhere, please. The "moral decline" is that persons such as you are allowed to spout your nonsense.

It is always nice to be married in a lovely old church but the "Humanist" rituals seem just as lovely.

22

hertscot,

21/07/2008 12:47:35
12 SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER

Get a life

17 Here Today HBOS Tomorrow

If that post isn't supposed to be tongue in cheek, you need help!

Perhaps both of you can ask your imaginary friend for guidance.
23

Alasdair,

21/07/2008 13:23:41
Humanism's as big a pile of nonsense as the old religions anyway. Still, I suppose at least these people are finding their own drivel to follow rather than the usual casual blasphemy of getting married "in God's eyes" as an unbeliever.

Religions are about FAITH. That seems obvious, but it seems to be lost of half the goons that get married in a church.
Faith is an absolute. Going into a church, and acting out the motions as though one is a believer is an act of blasphemy. It is lying in the face of the representative of that faith. Lying in the face of their God. Personally I'm a heathen, so don't give a to$$, but the hypocrisy comes when people claim they're getting married there out of respect for their family's wishes or so on.

And a telling question occurs when someone ends up taking communion/saying prayers or "amen"/making wedding vows to god, etc. because of pressure from their families.. I've seen it happen before, I'm sure many of you have. The family want a church wedding, say, and so nag their offspring into going along with one - even though they know they don't have faith!
These parents are actually worse than any casual blasphemer - they claim belief in the church but coerce non-believing offspring into lying in front of their God??

If I were the deity in question, those are the people that would be FIRST in the burny Hell - before murderers and fiddlers.
24

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 13:24:46
HBOS

Fight back dude, dont let them rob you of your freedom..
You are allowed to resign god to the trash can, it is cool. And dont let them force you into believing otherwise.
Be free and love the world without fear of religious hatred and indoctrination.
25

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 21/07/2008 13:41:08
Media 1

You do know your comment works both ways and people are also allowed to believe in whatever religion without persecution? It's pretty clear in the Human Rights laws.
26

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/07/2008 13:47:13
Thanks to everyone for their comments relating to my post. It was tongue in cheek, I cannot stand the God bigots and while I respect anyones right to get married in a church I will continue to attend weddings which take place outside church. Also for that matter I also respect people´s rights to have the religion of their choice.

Given the current skirmish in the Church of England I think it is time people realised that an institution which has about as much regard for women as Islam and is as loving towards others created by God (homosexuals) is nothing other than an outmoded institution scared by its own existence. After all if you had been selling a dodgy insurance policy (promising life after death) for that long it would be very hard to admit you were wrong, as fraud and deception are somewhat illegal - except when applied to religious groups.

Too all my fellow blasphemers and heretics out there, I wish you all a lot of fun! Hell certainly has much better weather than where I am sitting right now.
27

danbob,

21/07/2008 13:54:22
Humanist weddings are just a fad. A bit like hoola hoops. Here today gone tomorrow. The proof of this fad will emerge in later years when a high percentage of these couples will divorce. It will be proven that their mariages were built on foundations of sand. A good day out in a romantic setting like a castle or a stately pad, and when the good day out is over there will be nothing left.
28

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/07/2008 14:01:38
Divorce in itself is not a problem, Sweden for example had and perhaps still does have a very high divorce rate. However its children seem happy and the citizens constantly rate it among the best places to live.

Humanist may be a bit of a fad, I am atheist/agnostic and don't really want to end up following something else simply because it is not built on the equally shaky sands of Christianity. However I have yet to hear of anything other than trifle come out of the mouths of the COE or the RCC when it comes to trying to convince me of their ways. And I say that as as someone who spent many a year in church and the joys of Sunday School as a child... Fortunately I found that other books were far better reads and switched to them instead of some political manifesto which was designed to keep a King in power and unite the various religious groups behind him.
29

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 14:01:53
Dave Barra

I guess you are right, in fact I know you are right. But I sometimes become fustrated by stupidity! Anyway, I cant argue with your point about rights, so I guess I need to say to people...THAT!

If you believe that there is a man in the sky who just hung about in space for a few billion years and then decided to manufacture human life, plant life and animal life because he got bored then so be it. If you believe that we are made in the image of this man who is as big as the cosmos, yet still invisible, then so be it. If you believe that he sits in the sky and makes little humans, some black, some white, some Asian, some deformed, some perfect, some ugly and some pretty then so be it.

If you think that he finishes a day’s work and then switches on his heavenly answering machine to listen to the prayers coming in from all over the world then so be it. If you believe that the bible was written by this god entity that nobody has ever met then so be it. If you believe that the bible is good and that the murder of 2.6 million people by your god entity is acceptable, then so be it. If you believe that prior to the eating of an apple, snakes could speak and they had legs, then so be it. If you believe that this god who makes all these different people has a tendency to fukc about by making them believe different things then maybe you should be looking for a more responsible god. And if you believe that virgins can give birth, then welcome to the world of science in which cloning in the image of ourselves is possible.

Dave from Barra is right, if you honestly believe that god and Santa Claus are real, then you should be able to do so without ridicule.

PS: Just so I know, this god who his of our image. Is he circumcised?
30

danbob,

21/07/2008 14:04:43
26# We stand together on this. These modern day heretics were predicted to appear in the bible.

But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.  For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires,  always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth
(2 Timothy verse 3
31

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 14:16:25
So let me get this straight, god makes man, man becomes corrupt and starts wars, or he is born with defects and god is free from blame because! WELL THATS JUST THE WAY IT IS....hahahahah bwhahahaha bwhahaha
LMFAO, hahahahaha!
I always love the religious sports stars. When they come first its "I want to thank the lord for his support and his guidance and for delivering this prize to me" AND then the next week when they finish 53rd, "I just wasnt at the races today, I couldnt get going"
There is never a thank you for god when you finish 53rd...lmfao
32

danbob,

21/07/2008 14:27:18
Media 1# In the book of Genesis it states there were 2 forbidden trees. The tree of knowledge and the tree of life. Adam and Eve it states ate from the tree of knowledge. Hence the human species became very knowledgable. But as a punishment it states that they were robbed of the tree of life. Hence the reason why life dies. As it states in Genesis, You were made from the earth, to the earth you shall return. This is where the saying at funerals of Earth to earth. Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust comes from.
33

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/07/2008 14:37:55
Danbob, yes religion does have a dislike of knowledge. In fact it used to burn people who uncovered scientific truth and for while detested the idea that the earth was round. A well-known university in the states which regularly hosts presidents and candidates (and confers honorary degrees on them) has a dinosaur from I think at most 3000 years ago. When challenged on the authenticity of the said dinosaur evidence is strangely not forthcoming.

Also on the subject of sexual relations the RCC at one time had no problem with sexuality, well not as much as it does now. Indeed they even let Priests get married. However they soon realised that the said Priests would leave their money to their wife or partner rather than the church, then suddenly the idea of Priests having relationships became a sin.

34

Stuart Hartill,

Isle of Man 21/07/2008 14:39:18
The HSS are actually being quite modest about an amazing achievement. Opinion from the Scottish Registrar General which I saw in the course of pushing for legal humanist ceremonies over here suggests the official view is they achieve a standard of ceremony at least equivalent to any church body and better than most. The only obstacles to more ceremonies are the number of licences available and finding a gap in a celebrant's diary - even folk from outside Scotland are waiting a year or so for a slot rather than undergo the indignity of a registry service.
However, it is still nothing short of ridiculous that the rational must be inconvenienced like this throughout the British Isles, yet any two superstitious souls can be legally married by their local cross-dressing voodoo merchant.
35

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/07/2008 15:46:58
#33 rubbish - for centuries the church provided the backbone to every seat of learning in Europe. Think of all the people inspired by their faith from Kopernicus to Newton. Much the same was true in th Islamic world.

Many aspects of humanism are very compatible with christianity - indeed they are derived from it. Where humanism is wrong is in elevating human desires to a god like status, removing any sense of spiritual purpose from life and its acceptance of relativism.

The reality is humanism has been hijacked by secularists - witness the statements on this forum.

To me humanism is meaningless, vacuous and ultimately misguided. Ot's also the weapon of choice for the latest minority group who wish to tell every body else how they should think - secularists.
36

Mcsnagpile,

21/07/2008 15:47:43
You are better having a vegetarian wedding, there is always a big turnup.
37

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 15:53:49
If science was to tell us that there was a big silver spoon the size of 20 football fields buried in the sahara desert, none of us would believe it until we saw it.
There is no rational reason why god should be any different.
38

hertscot,

21/07/2008 15:58:10
35 SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER

Secularists believe that we all have a right to our opinions, and that the laws of a country should reflect that right,

Freedom of faith, speech, thought is not a bad thing.

And, yes religious bodies did promote learning, but only if it was supporting their belief, you only have to look at the treatment of Copernicus, Gallileo, Darwin and the other scientists who found accurate ways of describing the world around them.

The RC church has only recently admitted that Gallileo was right about the earth orbitting the sun, great promotion of knowledge that is, but then, they only followed god's example from Genesis, where Adam & Eve were punished for eating from the forbidden tree and gaining knowledge!


39

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/07/2008 16:05:51
#35, it still does provide education. The CoE and other religious providers will shortly control about 50% of the schools in England. If you as a pupil or your parents do not fully agree with the teachings you can quickly have your school bus pass revoked as you are not religious enough to qualify. I strongly recommend you look for clips on the Internet of Head Teachers being interviewed about the teaching of creationism or evolution. Some insist on telling children there is little evidence for evolution and then claim there is for creationism then make the children chant that creationism is right. I find the idea of children being made to chant and cheer any view (creationism or evolution) absolutely unacceptable. They should be informed and taught about both views, but not be forced to accept either. Teaching is about obtaining the facts to equip you for life and hopefully future employment, thus in turn hopefully making you questions things you hear. It should not be about brainwashing small children through the use of chants or religious coloring books.

Also keep in mind that in some countries if you work for a Catholic University and you get divorced, even if the divorce is not your fault you can be fired. Now thats fair isn't it!
40

danbob,

21/07/2008 16:48:18
33# With great respect you write like somebody who has only ever got his/her knowledge from listening to what the mainstream churches preach and practice. What would you say if I told you this. Nearly everthing that the churches have been responsible for or taught is totally wrong with the biblical teachings. As Jesus said," Many will follow and preach great works in my name. But I will say to them your works are false and I do not know you.
41

danbob,

21/07/2008 16:58:13
Going back to the original story. Marriage is a union before the eyes of god. If you do not belive in God why marry?
42

danbob,

21/07/2008 17:02:30
Likewise if these couples who have humanist weddings have children and one of their children or partner died, would they have a vicar or priest conduct the service?
43

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 17:06:59
danbob

If two people wish to marry, there is no reason why they should be forced to do it in a church.
And if as you say, it can only be a union before the eyes of god, then you need to provide those eyes in the flesh. Nothing else will do.
44

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 17:11:50
danbob #42

That is because death has been monopolised by the church, but things are changing.
Pretty soon, it will be odd for a funeral service or a wedding to involve the word god.
Religion is on its way out, people have had enough of it. We need to cater to the needs of the agnostics and the athiests, they are our future.
45

Saoghal Beag,

21/07/2008 17:35:29
is there any difference between the ceilidh after a church wedding and a humanist one?
46

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 17:41:01
Church weddings are a thing of the past in sunnier climates.
Most weddings over here happen in gardens, on beaches, within amazingly plush and luxurious bush lodges and specially designed farm wedding venues.
The church will soon be a thing of the past!
47

danbob,

21/07/2008 17:45:51
Media 1# 43/44# you are unwittingly half right. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about churches. They wearn't around when the bible was wrote. I was attacking the hypocricy of some people. What it does say is this. A mariage is a union between a man and woman. What God has created, ie. this union, let no man come between. It says nothing about where you can have a wedding. Having a wedding in a stately home for example is acceptable in the eyes of God as long as the union is genuine and not just a good day out, As for funerals and death it may come as a nasty shock to many but what the bible says is this. The living will be concious of death, but the dead will be concious of nothing at all. In other words when you die you just die. Not that far removed from the humanist viewpoint. So why do people who really know the bibles message belive in it's teachings? Have you thought about that?
48

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 17:49:34
danbob

I have given up wondering why anyone would give respect to the bible.
In fact, I try and avoid such people because I cannot take them seriously.
49

danbob,

21/07/2008 17:53:56
48# I respect your viewpoint but may I ask you this how do you know that the people you speak to about the bible really understand it and are telling the truth.
50

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 18:04:51
danbob #49

I suppose I am just pragmatic.
When I read the bible I was horrified by the blatant disregard for human life by the god entity. Brothers killed brothers, fathers would sacrifice sons without thought, sisters would bed their fathers and so on.
I was also stunned to find that the god entity murdered 2.6 million people in the book, whereas the devil only killed 12.
As a mature and intelligent human being I was able to completely disregard the book as a work of truth and enlightenment. I now see it as a sublime piece of fiction. So when I come across anyone who really lives their life by the book, or someone who believes that the book is the word of the god entity, then I sort of loose interest in the person and see them as a sort of freak. So whether they understand it or not is irrelevant to me, the fact that they are prepared to speak about it as possible truth is enough for me to ignore them.
51

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 18:12:06
Media 1 - in your post number 29 you state, quite rightly, that "Dave from Barra is right, if you honestly believe that god is real, then you should be able to do so without ridicule."

Why then do you precede, proceed and continue with ridicule?

Also, I believe your 'analysis' to be trivial and literal. Your posts over the years suggest a very superficial, self centred understanding and totally non empathetic approach to life.

I have a number of committed humanist friends who I admire hugely and with whom I am able to share fantastic experiences, but then our relationships are borne of mutual respect. A characteristic you seem unable to get to grips with.
52

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 18:19:48
Vincent W

I dont believe in god, the concept is outrageous to say the least.
However, people who believe in a higher power are entitled to their opinion and ridicule is not necessary. But the bible is quite a different story, belief in that deserves some ridicule.
I believed in Santa Claus until I wasold enough to know different, I found the same experience with god.
Respect is important, I agree and within the real world I would probably not be so blatantly critical, why cause others to feel hurt when I can keep my views to myself? But these threads are informal, so one can openly say what they wish.
Personally, I cannot respect anyone who tells me they believe in an entity they cannot touch, see or hear. IT IS that simple.
53

Big Jock McDoc,

Scotland 21/07/2008 18:29:09
It could be argued that anti-religion philosophies like Atheism, humananism and liberalism could be defined as a religion as it has a set of beliefs and values that require faith.

I wonder how long these philosophies will last under close scrutiny and exposure to the dualistic religion of Islam that only see's the world in terms of Moslems and non-Moslems?
54

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 18:34:26
Big Jock

Lets simplify it should we.

"Seeing is believing" End of story
55

Big Jock McDoc,

Scotland 21/07/2008 18:37:26
#54

I admire your faith.
56

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 18:39:45
Media 1,

I don't think that you understand the concept of respect, it isn't just important as you say, it is one of the most fundemental gifts we can give each other.

Informal though these threads are, I don't think that you can be taken seriously if, in one sentence you commend respect and in the next you do the opposite by ridiculing other people. Either you are a WUM or you wish to be taken seriously, I don't think you can be both.

The Bible is a complex collection of documents and demands respect, as does any set of writings. I don't think literal and simplistic interpretations of every book is appropriate or intelligent. To me it's about searching for the meaning behind the writings. I think you have failed to scratch the depth of an atom into understanding. Your frankly pathetic and deliberately provocative comparison of God and Santa Claus illustrates this perfectly. You have entirely failed to understand what Saint Nicholas is all about.
57

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 18:45:35
Media 1,

There's a great deal of evidence that Saint Nicholas did exist.

You "End of Story" statement in post number 54 really suggests a closed and non enquiring mind.

As a scientist I believe in many things I cannot hear, touch or see. wouldn't be able to do my job if I didn't
58

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 18:45:41
Vincent W

I would like you to tell me here and now, why I should offer respect to a book in which the entity known as god is responsible for 2.6 million murders.

Is that the sort of evil I am expected to respect?
59

Mcsnagpile,

21/07/2008 18:45:45
The problem with the religious thingy is it dominates every body’s life even to the point of demanding which god to believe in. Can the Prime Minister or the Queen declare himself or herself atheist? We have all these religious groups vying with each other on their rights to obey their god’s law. Afghanistan or Iran or Israel without a god would they be at war? In fact would there still be divisions. Well in the past they were all still fighting over there own petty gods, the Greeks, Romans, and another.

It is in human nature to have a blood bath over a Gods dispute now and again.

Why not dust down the old goat and get him to do the marry thing. At least he symbolises fertility.

I am sure another set of Gods are in the eaves waiting for an audition.
60

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 18:50:26
Vincent, as a scientist you can always see, the mathematics is your eyes! You cant fool me!
If god exists, show him to me.

And since you are a scientist, tell me this.

Is it possible that we may one day travel at the speed of light? Is it possible that we may one find a planet that is lifeless, but abundant in natural resources? Is it possible that we may want to mine those natural resources? And if we do, is it possible we may clone humans in the image of ourselves to mine that land?
61

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 21/07/2008 18:54:09
There should be no compulsion to believe any particular story about gods.

Since the beginning of time people have been making claims and other people have been denying the claims while others(often the slightly simple of mind) follow blindly.

#30 Danbob - You could apply that statement to every era before and after christ.

Media 1 - The one thing we can agree on. A dangerous work of fiction and its followers should be laughed at.

I have read much religion and see it for what it is control and power. It took many years to finally clear the guilt and fear placed in my young mind before I was even school age about doubting God and Jesus.

I now accept my place amoungst the other life forms. no more special than the next. I also have spoken at length with many devoutly religious people who really have no idea about religious books, significant events in their history, etc.

The just blindly follow who truth and proof end faith begins. See you in hell.

ps. Think about human history and imagine who would actually be going to heaven according to the RC criteria.


62

Lou,

21/07/2008 19:00:38
We had a humanist wedding last year. We're both secualar atheists, and to get married in a church or other religious venue would have been completely hypocritical and downright offensive to those in our families who celebrate religion. We wrote our own ceremony and own vows, had dedications instead of hymns and poems instead of a sermon. We had several letters afterwards telling us how beautiful it had been, and indeed it was the most emotional wedding that most people had ever been to. Perhaps because we had put in so much effort, and partly because it really was from the heart.
As far as #42 is concerned- of course I would not use a vicar or other religious figure for a funeral. I would use a humanist celbrant- they do funerals too!
63

Big Jock McDoc,

Scotland 21/07/2008 19:08:19
#61

A bit from the dangerous work of fiction:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you"

Matthew 5:38-42
64

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 21/07/2008 19:08:48
#62 Lou

I attended my one and only humanist wedding a few years ago and it was the first wedding I noticed that LOVE was the prevailing theme. The best and most loving wedding I have ever attended.

I have sat through many CofS weddings wondering when the stranger who does not know the family, bride or groom will stop bumbing through the service trying to find relevance for God.

When I finally marry my fiance we will write the service and select the music and poems.



65

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 19:21:06
An Greumach Mor

Congratulations, I wish you all the best for your wedding.

Yours will be a wedding in which love is the theme, and rightly so. You are absolutely correct when you say that other weddings are sometimes ruined by the man in the cloth who knows nobody and speaks about something none of us can relate to in an attempt to find some sort of relevance for the invisible entity.
66

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 21/07/2008 19:27:32
#63 Big Jock

Here is some more from your book and from Mathew showing total contradiction to your last quote. I could play this game all night. I was raised Free Church of Scotland. I know my fairy tales.

Sounds like Jesus gave up turning the other cheek and decided to kill everyone instead.

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

How very forgiving! How very primitive! How very contradictory!
67

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 21/07/2008 19:29:35
Thanks Media1 now if only we could agree on Scottish Independence.....
68

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 19:36:41
People can throw verses at eachother and place whatever spin on they want on them. But in essence, no matter what you believe you will be reading from a book in which the star of the show, the god entity, murders a total of 2.6 million people in cold blood.
It is this fact direct from the book itself that renders all debate futile.
Whether you believe god to be real or unreal, whether you believe the bible to be truth or fiction you are reading from a book that tells you the star of the show is a murderer.
69

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 19:51:31
An Greumach Mor - Good luck with your wedding, I recently wrote the service and chose the music for a different but equally important rite of passage.

It worked brilliantly, and many people (aetheists, catholics, methodists, humanists, agnostics) were gracious enough to complement me on it. Although the priest was unknown to me three months before, but I was able to draw on my catholic liturgical knowledge to put together something meaningful and special to everyone present. He presided, but we incorporated prayers, readings, songs, poems which worked. The thing is that as a regular church goer I could do that. I agree I too have been to too many services which are hollow, but that is often because the couple are unknown to the minister/priest. I agree with Lou above who recognizes, in her own words, that "because we had put in so much effort, and partly because it really was from the heart". She made her point so well.

My wedding was the same, we chose and organised the music (played and sung by family and friends), we wrote the prayers, and selected the readings, we talked over the homily (sermon) with the priest. It was very special for us too.

It's really only Bar-room antagonists like Media 1 who don't understand the meaning of respect that don't get it.

PS - what does an greumach mean?
70

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 19:53:45
Media 1 - you don't even scratch the surface, were you beaten too much as a child?
71

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 19:53:54
An Greumach Mor

Your welcome!
We must disagree on something :)

Isnt religion a fascinating subject?
Imagine going to work tomorrow and telling people you saw god in your bedroom the night before? They would lock you up or shun you, you would be excluded from the group because whilst the thought of god exists in the minds of some people, the acceptance that he could be real is impossible to digest.
I remember trying it out with my congregation one day back when I was a believer. I had been experiencing change in my view points, the church and its message had alientated me and through their lies and I was able to see the light and remove myself from their world of hate, destruction and intollerance. But sometime before that I had told them that I saw Jesus the night before to which they told me I didnt. I could not have seen Jesus was their response. And this is why the church must be applauded for their sheer brilliance in duping the believers. It was then I realised how much power the church had over their followers.
Back when Jesus was creating some hype and changing peoples views, back when Jesus was the David Koresh of his day, the church wanted him out, so they killed him. But here is the masterclass biblical entry. The church said that one day, the messiah will return, thus cancelling out any chance of such an event. Because no matter who comes along and says they are Jesus, they will always be accused of being nothing more than an imposter. Thus any chance of the church power being threatened by this apparent saviour is doomed. No more prophets, the church made sure of that.

It is also funny how I can be scolded for comparing the god entity with santa claus, yet it is perfectly acceptable to believe in a false invisible nothingness.
72

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 19:56:20
Vincent W #70

Fortunately not. A few scraps in the street now and again, but nothing more!

Scratching the surface is not even necessary! The fact remains that the star of the show murdered 2.6 million and that alone renders the debate futile.
73

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 20:00:13
Media 1 - you didn't see Jesus the night before and the congregation saw through you then just as I do now. You were and are nothing more than an antagonist. A bar room bully and a trivial simpleton.

What about St Nick - there's a heck of a lot of evidence he existed?
74

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 20:05:23
Vincent

Of course I didnt see Jesus! doh
Let us remind ourselves what I said.

I said that a belief in god is similar to a belief in Santa Claus, because both are mythical.

For a scientist you are not that sharp! Are you sure it is not scientology?
75

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 20:20:59
Who was it that said,
Religion is man made, even the men who made it cant agree what their prophets, redeemers or guru's actually said. They just keep teaching more and more about less and less.
Should we just surrender our inellect to this divine entity and accept the shocking indoctrination without question?
How dare anyone suffocate their mind on the false words of those who sell the divinity lie?
76

St. Brendan,

I wish you were here 21/07/2008 20:29:05
Media currently @ 29:
You should at least be able to find out yourself is that He is an Atheist. So at least the Atheists among you are created in His image.
77

Vincent-W,

21/07/2008 20:43:56
Media - doh! You were behaving in a provacative manner when you claimed to see Jesus, and no-one fell for your lies then - just as I don't now. You don't discuss or debate, merely shout your ideas and don't engage. I think you are a bit of a bully.

I'm pretty sure Santa Claus (St Nicholas) did exist and I'm pretty sure that God does too.

Many people have said religion is man made, which one are you referring to?

If you are referring to me when you write of suffocated minds then you are both presumptious and ignorant.

Media - get back on topic, are you a wum or a serious contribtor?
78

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 20:44:55
If you were to compare the god entity in the bible with Hitler,you would be hard pressed to decide who was the most evil.
In fact, funnily enough, the most docile killer in the bible is the entity known to us as the devil.
He is a kind of quiet entity, he doesnt say much, doesnt try to hard and doesnt kill as much as the talking, shouting, evil and utterly out of control god entity.
If didnt know better, you would think the devil was actually good and the god evil - hmmm, I wonder if! nah cant be lmfao hahahaha
79

Big Jock McDoc,

Scotland 21/07/2008 20:56:26
#77

He's a WUM, found him using the same tactics on another thread concerning Christianity, funny how I don't see him as angry on the threads concerning Islam.

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Christian-teacher-under-fire-in.4209368.jp

80

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 20:56:31
Vincent W

Ok back to basics!
Let me put it this way.
As a human being I am equipped with an enquiring mind. That mind is a practical mind and it requires proof to some degree that what I am being told is truthful. Therefore, I just cannot accept that there is a god who lives in the sky and manufactures people in his image all day long. I cannot accept the bible either because my mind does not permit me to do so. I am a peaceful person, I am compassionate and living here leaves your heart broken on a daily basis. I detest killing, I detest rape and murder and I will fight against those things until I die. So when I come across a book whose main character is the most evil and despicable monster I have ever met, it forces me to ask why so many people could be in love with such a monster.
I am also not a greedy person. I understand the human impulse to ask for more. Give a person a week holiday, they want two weeks, offer them 2 course meal they will want 3 courses. Drive a BMW and you will want a Ferrari. Live a full life on this wonderful planet and you will find some way of asking for another life when this one is done, because enough can never be enough for some people.
I am not afraid to die, nor am I looking for free handouts from some divine entity on the basis that THERE JUST MUST be more.
I can deal with what I have been given and be grateful for it. I dont require more than I already have, this is enough and its wonderful.
81

Big Jock McDoc,

21/07/2008 21:00:02
#80

What else are you going to cut and paste from your personal library?

82

Media 1,

cape town 21/07/2008 21:05:12
Big Jock

It matters not about what you see as my arrogance or intollerance.
The very bottom line is that a book called the bible exists and within it, the main character is a murderer.
Of that there is absolutely no doubt, it is there in black and white. From human sacrfice to incest, murder and rape as well as small babies being killed and their blood smeared on doors.
I cannot accept such a book because the peaceful person that I am will always deny such evil an existence in my world.
83

St. Brendan,

I wish you were here 21/07/2008 21:17:13
Media currently @ 82:
Which religion are you attacking?
Christians have only one covenant, the covenant of Jesus in "The New Testament" which is an offer to all peoples. You seem to be addressing "the old testament". Its covenants are for Noah and his sons descendants only, Shem, Ham and Japhar, which are the Jews, Arabs and Armenians only. Read the Book yourself before you criticise it.