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Europe: the fault lines open again



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Published Date: 06 March 2008
THE government saw off a rebellion over Europe last night, winning a crucial vote to repel calls for a referendum on signing up to the EU reform treaty.
25 of Gordon Brown's Labour MPs defied a three-line whip to vote for referendum whilst David Cameron Faces anti-Europe fervour among many Tory young turks
25 of Gordon Brown's Labour MPs defied a three-line whip to vote for referendum whilst David Cameron Faces anti-Europe fervour among many Tory young turks
In a vote where rebels in all three main parties defied the whips, the government won with a majority of 63. But the issue, which continues to divide parties both internally and across the dispatch box, left a huge split in the ranks of the Liberal Democrats, with three of the party's front-bench spokesmen resigning.

The government's victory will be a huge relief for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who saw 25 of his own MPs defy a three-line whip to vote in favour of a referendum. Some 13 Lib Dems, including the three now former front-benchers, Alistair Carmichael, David Heath and Tim Farron, voted with the Tories in calling for a referendum, while a handful of Conservatives voted with the government.

The SNP MPs also voted against the government, and in favour of a referendum. Among them was the party leader, Alex Salmond, who made a rare appearance at Westminster to cast his vote.

The outcome means the decision on whether to sign up to the controversial treaty, which opponents claim is nothing short of a European Constitution, will now be taken by parliament.

The most potentially toxic of all the heated debates were the internal wrangles facing Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader.

Mr Carmichael, his Scottish affairs spokesman, said: "For a front-bench spokesman to defy his party's whip is a serious situation and one which I have not taken lightly. It is not something which can be done while remaining in post.

"Although I do not on this issue agree with my party leader, I remain supportive of his leadership and look forward to continuing to work with him to advance our party's cause, even if this is not to be from the front-bench."

Moments before tendering his resignation, Mr Carmichael, the Orkney and Shetland MP, had told The Scotsman: "I think Nick Clegg is a good leader, but he is a good leader with whom I disagree today."

Mr Clegg said: "I greatly regret the loss of David, Tim and Alistair from the shadow cabinet. They have served with great distinction and commitment.

"However, as they have recognised, the shadow cabinet cannot operate effectively unless the principle of collective responsibility is maintained."

Across the party divide, hostilities were more transparent, and it was a debate dogged with fiery exchanges.

Even earlier, during Prime Minister's Questions, the issue of Europe dominated, and Mr Brown told David Cameron, the Tory leader: "If this was a constitutional treaty we would hold a referendum."

He said the issue of Europe had been decided more than 30 years ago, and went on: "The Conservative Party leadership is being driven by the Eurosceptics on their back-benches. We need to put the pro-European case in the country. But I have to say to you that to go back to the 1970s and relive a referendum in the 1970s is not the way to plan for the future. The way to plan for the future is to have an agenda for a global Europe, which is exactly what this government has."

Mr Cameron turned his fire on both the government and the Lib Dems, saying: "The truth is all of us in this House promised a referendum. We have the courage of our convictions and are sticking to that promise – you have lost your courage and that lot (the Lib Dems] have lost their convictions."

Mr Brown insisted the Tory proposals for a referendum would put the country's membership of the EU at risk. "Why won't you wake up to the fact that 3.5 million jobs are dependent on our membership of the EU?" he asked.

David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, insisted a referendum should be held only when a "fundamental" shift of power was to take place. And he said the Treaty of Lisbon did not represent a fundamental shift and any referendum was, in a sense, an abdication of power by parliament and the government of the day.

He went on: "This government intend to make no such abdication of their responsibilities; neither do we intend to invite the House to abdicate from its responsibility."

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, asked MPs: "What has really changed between Tony Blair standing at the dispatch box and saying let battle be joined in a referendum in April 2004, and the current Prime Minister saying let battle be avoided at any cost and please don't let me be photographed at the signing ceremony? Two things have changed – the general election of 2005 was got out of the way and the government have decided that a referendum cannot be held because they do not think they would win it."

At the end of the Commons debate, the government's majority was further increased with a 311-247 vote against Scottish Labour rebel Ian Davidson's proposal for a two-question referendum.

While Europe dominated yesterday, its problematic roots go back decades. It has brought down two modern-day Tory prime ministers, seen a U-turn from the Labour Party on its position of the 1980s and it now threatens the position of the country's newest party leader.

It was the killer resignation speech of Geoffrey Howe as foreign secretary that did for Margaret Thatcher, while John Major railed against the Euro-sceptic "bastards" who prompted his decision to stand down as party leader, in an attempt to force his critics to unite behind him.

Today, Mr Cameron is not regarded as an enthusiast on Europe, and the Tory big hitters on the issue remain the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine. The Conservative leader also has to contend with an anti-Europe fervour among many of his young turks.

It was Tony Blair who promised in 2004 that Britain would have a referendum – though that was before the draft EU constitution was rejected by France and the Netherlands in 2005 and gave birth to the reform, or Lisbon, treaty. That was seen as a supposedly watered-down version that would be more acceptable to member states.

Mr Brown continues to maintain that there is no need for a referendum because the treaty is not of equal significance to a redrafted constitution. But many observers think this is because he fears the outcome of a UK vote on Europe would be a rejection of Europe.

CHANGING THE FACE OF EUROPE

• THE Lisbon Treaty establishes the post of president of the European Council.

The holder – Tony Blair, the former British prime minister, has been suggested by Nicolas Sarkozy, the president of France – will serve for two and a half years at a time for a maximum of two terms. This post will replace the system whereby the presidency rotates between member countries every six months. However, the job carries no executive powers.

• Another new post will be a European Union high representative for foreign affairs and security, uniting two jobs and giving the holder greater diplomatic clout and control over the EU's foreign aid budget. The intention is to give the EU a bigger presence on the world stage. The high representative will put the case – if there is a united one – of EU members at the United Nations Security Council.

• The European Commission – the EU's "cabinet" – will shrink from 2014, with fewer commissioners than member states (currently 27). Only two-thirds of countries will have a commissioner at any one time.

• The number of votes held by each member state will be redistributed, while the national veto will be removed in a number of areas. Under the new rules, a vote will be passed if 55 per cent of states are in favour – 15 out of 27 – and if they represent 65 per cent of the EU's population. It is also passed if fewer than four countries oppose it.

• New powers in fields such as justice and home affairs will be handed to the commission, European Parliament and European Court of Justice. But the UK can opt in or out of any policies in these areas.

• The treaty contains provisions allowing member states to agree that decisions currently passed only by unanimous vote can in future be agreed by a majority – although not on defence – in 45 to 70 policy areas. However, some are very technical.

• All 27 member states must ratify the treaty. before it can come into effect. If so, it should begin to come into effect from 2009.

WHO'S DOING WHAT

THE countries whose parliaments will be left to decide the fate of the European Reform Treaty are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Sweden.

The countries which have already agreed to ratify the treaty are: France, Hungary, Malta, Romania and Slovenia.

Ireland is the only member state which has agreed to hold a referendum. It will be staged in May or June.

Speculation of yet another Lib Dem leadership battle grows as Clegg struggles to make mark

NICK Clegg has only been in the job three months, but already his actions have triggered speculation that yet another contest to lead the Liberal Democrats could soon be under way.

Mr Clegg, who only narrowly won the party leadership, has done what to most Lib Dems is an affront to their party's principles: imposed a three-line whip ordering all MPs to abstain from voting on the European referendum motions.

The new leader was furious that the Commons Speaker had not allowed a vote on the "official" Lib Dem amendment.

This would have called for a referendum on whether the UK should be in or out of Europe. But what was originally an idea from Sir Menzies Campbell, Mr Clegg's predecessor, held no sway with up to a quarter of the parliamentary party.

One senior MP told The Scotsman: "(Mr Clegg] has asked us to abstain on an issue where passions run incredibly high. Banning a vote – effectively stifling democracy – is a concept that is alien to the Lib Dems."

Despite being a pro-European party, many Lib Dems hold seats in eurosceptic areas of the country and represent rural constituents who feel they have been hammered by Brussels.

The other factor that has made Lib Dems uncomfortable is that the party promised a vote on the constitutional treaty in its manifesto. But Mr Clegg, pictured below, effectively signed up to the government's line – that the treaty differs from the previously rejected constitution – to justify his refusal to hold a vote on it.

Even before the current bust-up, party insiders had been disappointed with Mr Clegg's performances.

The Sheffield Hallam MP has been playing it safe after the party was dogged by bad headlines in the final months of the leaderships of Charles Kennedy and Sir Menzies.

His worst fear, insiders say, is having the Lib Dems be the subject of the wrong sort of controversy or ridicule.

However, he has also been plagued by comparisons with David Cameron, although this is arguably more problematic for the Conservative leader.

The former MEP is telegenic and well spoken, and he has not yet stumbled at Prime Minister's Questions. But he has also failed to seize the initiative or headlines since becoming leader.

Mr Clegg has also been criticised for not having a clear narrative or message to send to the electorate.

He has been largely inoffensive, but the Lib Dems must broaden their appeal to get even the same level of votes as they did at the 2005 general election.

Under Mr Kennedy, the party secured its most successful results – largely attributed to the Iraq war. The potency of the war will have dissipated by the time of the next election, probably next year, leaving the Lib Dems without their unique selling point.

Meanwhile, the Tories have managed to encroach on the Lib Dems' other main brand: the civil liberties agenda.

All parties have now signed up, at least rhetorically, to the "green" policies once espoused only by the Lib Dems.

While Mr Clegg may have felt that his actions were strong, decisive and principled, 13 of his own MPs disagreed so strongly that they defied him.

It is an inauspicious start for a leader who has had to follow the high standards set by caretaker leader Vince Cable.

GERRI PPEV



The full article contains 2090 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 March 2008 9:32 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: European Union
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

06/03/2008 00:04:57
This will come back to haunt Comrade Broon more than any of his other lies and deceit.
Roll on election day.
2

Castaway,

06/03/2008 00:05:30
What is there to stop the Scottish Government from holding an advisory plebiscite on the issue in Scotland ? All they need do is ask the Green and Conservative MSPs for support and they must surely follow their public policy and help make it happen.
3

,

06/03/2008 00:12:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

subrosa,

06/03/2008 02:09:21
If Eire vote against then it can't be ratified? Am I right or is that wishful thinking?
5

,

06/03/2008 02:17:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

06/03/2008 04:47:25
I once read an EU statistic that said that Moray had the lowest standard of living in the entire EU. I think either Highlands and Islands or Banff and Buchan took third. The stat appeared around 1999.

Looking out from my primary school window, I used to watch the oil rigs go to Nigg/Ardesier for refitting etc etc little realising that I bordered one of the worlds biggest oil deposits.

Strange the poverty.

ITS NOT EUROPE THATS THE PROBLEM.
7

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

06/03/2008 04:55:04
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

8

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 06/03/2008 06:16:50
independence now!!
casey purvis

9

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/03/2008 06:37:33
Never trust manifesto promises. Never trust politicians. Never vote. At least, not until Britain becomes a real democracy and not merely a 'parliamenetary' one. Who knows what's best for you: them or you?
10

donald,

glasgow 06/03/2008 06:37:41
What about a democratic referendum for Scotland?
11

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 06/03/2008 06:58:03
So Tony Blair is King (without pedigree) of Europe, and Brown expects to take his turn. Presidents are only politicians who would be king but do not bring anything to the office like the Royal family do. Who will come 1000s of miles to see King Tony (unless they bring a bag of rotten tomatoes or worse) and bring $$$ to the econony?
12

Jimmy the Pie,

06/03/2008 07:14:44
I see the Johnston Press results aren't looking very good!
Would this be due, in no small part, to the idiotic stance they have taken with the SNP government or the idiots they employ as journalists??
13

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 07:27:23
I was so annoyed about this that I have just bought the domain name www.thelabourparty.org which was amazingly available and I have started posting the truth about these traitors and their regime in the hope that Labour voters will stumble across it and learn the truth.

I've made a nice graphic that shows what the Government is doing to Britain.
14

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 06/03/2008 07:30:39
Presidents cost the same as monarchs with more problems as they don't know their place. It has not been dug yet.
15

inoui,

Bangkok 06/03/2008 07:36:31
Never understood why the UK is the only country in the EU that refusues to have a refurendum which ever political party is in power.
16

steve 1511,

aberdeen 06/03/2008 07:54:31
the lies of labour.you can have a vote,to you cannot have a vote,how can blair a man who is renowned for dishonesty and lies be considered for any position in europe
17

Paul W,

United States of Europe (English Province) 06/03/2008 07:59:17
Who votes for a party whose key policy is to abstain on a referendum that changes the constitution of the UK when it relates to the EU, but would vote for a referendum on Scots or Welsh devolution? I've a feeling that the LibDem MPs will be back to sharing the one taxi after the next GE. They were beaten by UKIP at the last EU elections, they might have to get used to that as well.
18

A Better Way,

06/03/2008 08:03:00
Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:

It appears that the Unelected by the People, Prime Minister of London has once again lied to the people of the countries that are part of these Islands. Much to our embarassment it appears that this proven liar, has some form of Scottish Parentage, even though his loyalties are mainly to his beloved London.

Never being the brightest of polticians to come out of Scotland, it has now come to light that his many years in Londons smog and brightlights has somehow affected his ability to tell the truth or stop stealing from the public purse. He has fell in with a bad crowd, including the Alistair Darling, who paid 100 billion quid for an empty Piggybank, Douglas Alexander, who is a very close night time comfort for the Brown fellow himself. A true son of the Kirk. Des Browne who frowns when he attempts a smile and batters anyone who talks badly of Brown. He is constantly battering Scottish Labour into submission so much they cannot think or act for themselves.

Now dont any of you real Scots worry. Our Country will take our fishing grounds back for the benefit of our nation, and the same applies to the Oil that Brown Stole from us. Scotland will enter/not enter the EU only as a result of referendum of the Scottish People.

Its Time For The Scottish Way in Our Own Country. Vote out of Office every Britnat MP and Replace Them With Scottish Patriots Commited To Our Nation. They will light a fire under the Scottish Turncoats just as they did when they exposed the Cash for Honours Corruption by Blair and Brown.
19

Ken S.,

Reading 06/03/2008 08:22:42
#12 Rulesbutnotrulers,
".. Never vote..."
The problem is that if you refuse to vote until there is proper democracy, that idyllic situation will never arise. Politicians don't give a damn about those who don't vote, as they're just assumed to be happy with how they're governed.

Always vote, even if it is for the looniest one (other than a major party!) on the ballot paper. At very least, attend the poll and write "none of the above" on the ballot paper.
20

Nellie,

Liverpool 06/03/2008 08:26:50
#12, Yup. Democracy stinks, and this Government is fairly ripe, too, when it comes to honesty and open government. But what is the alternative?
21

scottish person,

paisley 06/03/2008 08:32:47
You dont have to guess who the hootsmon support. Broon licker. Ayrshire scot, change your name, you are no scot
22

rancid brown,

Gordon Brown: hang, draw and quarter 06/03/2008 08:55:16
#16 Well done! That's the sort of direct action we need. I can't understand why more people aren't getting angry over this.

We need more people to go over to Ireland in the lead up to their referendum in order to inform the locals of the EU lies.

Believe it or not, the Tories are essentially pro-EU too. Only UKIP will get us out of this nightmare.
23

Malc.F,

france 06/03/2008 08:56:07
please have a referendum on the UK leaving Europe.It is a cert that with the little englander mentality prevalent in the UK that you will leave and good bloody riddance.
Are you really stupid enough to vote the tories in again?Will you never learn?
Still, never mind you will always have the wonderful USA to guide and protect you when the Chinese come calling.
24

Guga II,

Rockall 06/03/2008 08:57:47
Maggie Broon: Stalinist, totalitarian control freak, blatant liar, charlatan and war criminal.
25

Fraz 0810,

Dunfermline 06/03/2008 09:05:37
#6 Subrosa - Technically, a referendum vote by the Irish would give the tseoich a mandate/requirement to vote against the treaty, which would effectively kill it. In reality, it would mean Eire being kicked out of the union, always supposing the other countries agreed to ratify it. The only way Eire could stay in the union is if the treaty were knocked back by other countries and it effectively died. However, this is not going to happen, as 1. none of the other government's are holding referendum's; and 2. the treaty was drawn up by the members - a turkey voting for christmas methinks.

It's all fine and well for everyone on the forum to start shouting and bawling about Broon not giving us a referendum, but the only time we will get a vote is on the actual constitution - not a treaty. Like it or not, the politicians are voted in to do our bidding in these circumstances. If we are really asking for a referendum on this, then why don't we just scrap the parliament vote and have ad-hoc referendum's on every issue? Seriously, this is nowhere near a "REAL" referndum issue, and this has been borne out by the parliamentray vote.
26

Nikostratos,

06/03/2008 09:06:56
HE Lisbon Treaty establishes the post of president of the European Council.

The holder – Tony Blair, the former British prime minister


Oh yes tony for prezz of all Europe..............


...............Thought for the day

The snp Drones Favorite word 'LIAR' because it is what they know best
27

danielrober,

06/03/2008 09:07:19
What a shame. What a dissapointment. I can see the Labour point of view and i can see the Conservative point of view. Yet the Lib Dems just confuse me. Why go to parlimwent if you are not going to take part, in issues of such vast importance.

Bring back Charles K.
28

sweet76,

Coventry 06/03/2008 09:11:42
Democracy in action. This Government is deperate to be a part of the continental soialist's club and are prepared to supress all debate on the subject.
Britain has not benefitted from membership and is time we left.
If you want to rebuild the fishing industry and manage the fishing grounds better: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to sign a trade agreement with China: You have to do it as part of Europe.
Want to deport foreign criminals after they've served thier time: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to reduce the amount of packaging on toys: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to subsidise French Tabacco farmers: Great idea!

The peoples of these islands should have the right to thier say.
29

Banana Heid,

ayrshire 06/03/2008 09:15:13
16# Stewart C. Well done on getting that domain it's a really good 1 to get, However after reading your ramblings I have come to the conclusion that you are clearly bonkers and should hand the domain rights across to someone with a grip on reality...Shame really as it could have been such a great site...
30

Alan B,

06/03/2008 09:27:29
There are a couple of different issues here.

Firstly i do not think a referendum is appropriate. A situation where if one country votes no means that the agreement of all the other countries is therefore abandoned. It seems right that governments try to come to some sort of agreement and make compromises as necessary in order to reach an agreement.

Having said that Britain should have a referendum on continued membership. That would allow people the choice of wether to remain within this club or not.

Part of the problem is the tory line. They support the eu because they see it as an economic disaster in waiting if we leave. (remembering the declining nature of the british economy in the 60s and 70s). But do not want the integration that most other countries seem to want. We therefore find ourselves in a sitation where there is a general negativity (in england atleast) about the eu, but not will to leave.

I do however believe the eu could be reformed in a more positive way. Countries should be free to join the euro or not without being forced. There does seem to much interference in certain areas. Decisions should only be taken centrally where there is a clear advantage. I would like to see CAP reformed so that countries subsidise there own farmers, with a move then to create a free market in argiculture within the there after but protected from outside.

I do believe developing a foreign policy would be a good idea. It is much better to be pro active and try to use the economic and political muscle to prevent disputes getting out hand.

31

Alan B,

06/03/2008 09:29:30
One thing i forgot to say. Blair having commited to a referendum meant that it should take place. Brown should really have called the general election after he took over and made clear that he would not have a referendum if he won.
32

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 09:30:24
I don't think I trust Brown and Labour enough to tell the truth about the significance of this vote. The fact that so many of his party broke the whip rather suggests he is telling porky pies though, and that this is important. Like the death-throws of any party, the leader is struggling to maintain control. Must be difficult to cope with when you are a control freak.
33

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 09:40:25
It is quite simple. The Government (i.e. the real Government, not the pseudo-regime in Edin) would certainly have lost a referendum. Therefore, there is no chance of such a vote being held. The same way all Governments defy the will of the people if they scent a loss at the polls. An alternative, rarely allowed, is to hold a referendum but to make sure the question is put in such a way as to engineer the desired result. In short, the will of the people has been defied and that is an absoulte disgrace.
34

Moscow Central 42,

06/03/2008 09:43:45

When will the (leadership) of the Liberal Democrats learn that abstaining from a vote on a critical issue merely reinforces the widespread public perception that they are a bunch of unprincipled political fence sitters. I am being charitable and have chosen my words with great care.They recently behaved in exactly the same way when it came to the vote on the Scottish budget.
35

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 09:51:35
#38 - that more or less sums it up! Scottish referendum? Nae chance.
36

Doh,

06/03/2008 09:52:04
#39 Moscow

Abstention is perfectly fine, although in this case I wish they had voted for a referedum.

The focus now switches to the Tory Europhobes will they promise to repeal this treaty if they form teh next government or are they just full of hot air and were scoring party political points?

Which is all you can manage.

I wish more Labour MPs had abstained rather than voting for the disasterous Iraq war.
37

Stu_R_20,

edinburgh 06/03/2008 09:52:20
I'm honestly spitting with anger over this!! I have never seen such utter disregard for the electorates opinion, it is time to assemble the weapons and begin the long march south!!!
Brown has indefinately sealed his fate at the next election, I will be voting tactically for the Tories or SNP.
38

Iain's,

06/03/2008 09:55:37
Just because Paw Broon comes from Kircaldy and not Dundee does not mean that he has not been promoted way beyond his station.

39

Doh,

06/03/2008 10:02:31
#39 Moscow

Sorry - I just realised you were being funny -

of course I remember the Labour party abstained over the Scottish Budget as well. What a bunch of fence sitters.

Very good - you are a funny socialist.

I stil wish Labour MPs had abstained over the Iraq war though. That isnt quite so so funny.
40

,

06/03/2008 10:05:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 06/03/2008 10:36:30
In 1983 someone described the then Labour manifesto as 'the longest suicide note' in history. That seems nothing compared to what Labour are doing now. Their barefaced lies and contempt for democracy is a recipe for party suicide. I see they are still plunging ahead with the ID card timetable despite its financial impractability, nevermind the other concerns such as all the data fiascos, and that it won't stop terrorism.

Its difficult to see what else Labour have to do to kill themselves off.
42

Geoff,

sa 06/03/2008 10:45:35
The Union Jack is a beautiful flag-specially with that golden fringe! :)
43

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 06/03/2008 10:51:38
And the next day; The Home Secretary launches her views on the proposed ID Card. Result..like lambs the media follow her and bad news day of UK peasants not being allowed vote on the non EU treaty is buried.
Fine chap this Brown. Great to see the "Great Leader" is to be President of Europe. With him and Hillary in charge what worries can we possibly have?
Come on Ireland rescue us!
Great idea sending a puppet to the song contest. Speakes volumes!
44

subrosa,

06/03/2008 10:53:17
#29 Fraz

Thanks for the explanation. I agree Eire wouldn't want out.

#45 Scott

Keep at it Scott, eventually the penny will drop.
45

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 10:54:07
48.Geoff, I find the union flag a bit busy, too much crammed into it. Perhaps it would be more attractive is one the design elements were removed?

Lib Dems abstain? I thought they backed a referendum on this?

And I thought Labour had a referendum on this in their manifesto?
46

bill2,

06/03/2008 10:56:23
We now rely on the unelected and mostly appointed members of the House of Lords to overturn the government's conspiracy to abolish Britain's independence.

A forlorn hope indeed, but the only chance we have to keep our democracy and get out of the EU.
47

Mikko,

Loch Ness 06/03/2008 10:58:35
It was simple: Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories all PROMISED a referendum in their manifestos. Only the Tories kept their promise. Come the next election the rest will find a huge mill stone hangs around their neck. I hope they come begging for votes to my door because I'll just say, "oh that's your manifesto is it - you'd told the biggest of lies last time so you know where you can stick it this time"
48

Doh,

06/03/2008 11:03:30
#46 clarry

Never trust the SNP.

Especially over the Trump application.

Some SNP councillors voted for it, some SNP voted against it.

Some SNP voted against it and then voted for it.

Some SNP voted against it but then voted against the chairman who also happened to vote against it.

Then the SNP minister has referred it to a public inquiry even though it is of national importance.

The SNP are sitting on the out of bounds post.
49

Publius,

London 06/03/2008 11:04:52
The government is not only unprincipled. It is stupid. If there was a referendum Labour and the LibDems would almost all unite to campaign for a yes vote. The Tories would be deeply divided with all the wounds of the Major years being reopened. The yes vote would likely win. A general election would follow and the Tories would be defeated.
After yesterday Labour looks unpincipled, the LibDems look stupid and the Tories are smelling of roses.
50

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 11:06:53
Banana Heid, #33. Thank you for your kind words.

I learned a great saying recently: "it's none of my business what people think about me."

As for www.thelabourparty.org, I suggest you have a good think about what I have written.

I have much more info to post about the MPs who want to lower the age of consent (incl. homosexual) to 13 (between teenagers with up to 3 years age difference).

There are the damaged individuals who want to teach 4 and 5 year old children about sex.

Yet, you think I'm mad.

You could be right. Maybe 5 year olds should be learning how to place a condom over a banana, Mr Banana Heid!
51

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 11:11:50
Banana Heid, #33, by the way, I have received four emails from strangers this morning congratulating me on my new website and basically agreeing with me. That's 4 out of 4.
52

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 11:15:04
16. Stewart

try out: scottishlabourparty.org

http://www.scottishlabourparty.org/

53

subrosa,

06/03/2008 11:40:29
# 56

Keep up the good work. Souter was lambasted for his attempt to stop the Clause but he was right. Do parents take an interest in their children anymore? Have they seen the type of material their very young children are being taught in sex 'discussions'?

Before anyone shouts about 'old fashioned' it's quite untrue. The labour party opened the gates for our children to be indoctrinated with this information. What good has sex education done? None. We still have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.

No other country teaches sex education to infants. It's morally wrong. When my grandchildren appear I shall ensure their parents SEE the material they are taught. Every last word of it.
54

Conan the Librarian™,

06/03/2008 11:46:25
51
Do you mean the white-fimbriated symmetric red cross,by any chance, Ayrshire?
55

davydee,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 11:49:56
#Stewart C
Brilliant the truth as it should be known all posters should hit this link
www.thelabourparty.org
56

Gusto,

06/03/2008 12:01:39
While the East block get more democratic - the West block gets less democratic.
And there's a queue of has-been polititians clamouring to be the first Stalin.
Highly dangerous course of events - wonder where they plan the first gulag..
57

davydee,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 12:02:21
#33 Bannana Heid
So #16 Stewart is bonkers but its the truth I say your bonkers this is the real world
58

,

06/03/2008 12:08:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

,

06/03/2008 12:09:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

European Scot,

06/03/2008 12:21:39
48 Geoff,sa

Ah, such nostalgia from you Geoff.
" The Union Jack is a beautiful flag-specially with that golden fringe !
Or could that be interpreted as ......specially with that edge of 'guilt' !
Unfortunately it is a flag that remains for many around the world a symbol of British Empire, of colonial rule.
Ah dreams from the past of Unionist Heaven !
Imagine even one country being ruled over and controlled by another state.
So hard to believe in this day and age !
Under that nice big red cross, you'll see the fragmented white cross on a blue background.
This partially obscured element, better known by locals as the Saltire, will soon be re-emerging in its full splendour on the World stage. The flag of Scotland.
So too will the flag of England.
We as English and Scots won't become enemies, or be any the worse for it.
Quite the opposite.
It's just time to move on.
It's called democracy.
61

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 12:28:40
Why is rule from Brussels supposed to be bad and rule from Westminster good?

They're both multi-national superstates!
62

bill-alba,

fife 06/03/2008 12:30:05
#54 "DOH" enough said.
63

kimba,

06/03/2008 12:37:48
68.What dream was that in? you seem to forget non of our political parties are to eager to change things!
64

slap-dash,

land of milk and honey 06/03/2008 12:50:07
Kimba

He was talking about the "Butchers Apron" !

Also you are right for once. None of you`re political parties are eager for change but I do not beleive he was talking about you`re political parties.
65

Busymale,

06/03/2008 13:06:11
This party is a bunch of dictators who have no regard for democracy and the opinions of the people. If its not telling you what to think, say, eat or do it's telling us we're too stupid to vote.

Come the election, come the end.
66

subrosa,

06/03/2008 13:08:51
# 67

Thanks for that Meths, I thought I was due an appointment with my optician :)
67

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 13:18:00
Thank you to everyone who has visited my brand new website http://www.thelabourparty.org/ and commented or emailed me.

I'm glad so many people recognise the truth; it is very encouraging indeed.

Thanks for the link to scottishlabourparty.org, Ayrshire Scot. That was a surprise as well! Of course an independent Scotland has to be free from the all-seeing, all-conquering EU, like Norway.

Thank you Dragonhead and davydee.

I have to go to bed, I was up all night doing the website!

We have to educate people and remind the MPs that they work for us.
68

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 13:29:10
Ah, the internet access tokens have been handed out at last! Time to sit back and soak up this afternoon's entertainment.
69

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 13:33:42
Hmmm, i see from yesterdays posts that my good friend (An Northern Irish voice)was panning the lib Dems hard, well done and it was an Substantial torrent of free for all panning.
Now what is it with the lib Dems and itchy feet?

It was like trying to control an outbreak of locusts from the school science lab
21:41pm 26th February 2008


Mutiny! Amid much stamping of little booties (or should that be sandals?) almost the entire contingent of Liberal Democrat MPs stomped out of the Commons Chamber yesterday teatime.

Tools down! It's a walkout! The Libs were furious about a ruling by the Speaker, who had declined to let one of their amendments be called on the Lisbon Treaty. (Clegg's little heroes are mostly pro this constitutional treaty, by the way. They thought the Speaker was going to co-operate.)

Who spat the dummy out then?
70

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 13:35:52
OH good lord, help ma flapping, they are at it again!






View GalleryA LIBERAL Democrat MSP stormed out of a Holyrood committee yesterday, accusing its Nationalist convener of playing party politics.

Mike Rumbles had tried to question Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa) witnesses about a controversial planning application for the Aviemore Highland resort. SNP ministers have been accused of interfering in the process.

Two Sepa officials were giving evidence to the rural affairs committee's inquiry into flooding and flood management, and Mr Rumbles tried to question them about the Aviemore application.

The convener, Roseanna Cunningham, said: "I don't want these two witnesses to start going down the road of Aviemore. I'm ruling on this."

But Mr Rumbles hit back: "I want this information. That's not correct."

Ms Cunningham refused to budge, prompting an angry Mr Rumbles to leave. "This is a disgrace," he shouted as he left.

He later accused Ms Cunningham of being "extremely partisan and party political".

This lot are like a jack in the box high on steroids

71

European Scot,

06/03/2008 13:37:10
71 Kimba

You are correct in that none of your mainstream parties in England currently support the idea of Independence.
However there are many people in England from across the political spectrum who do support English Independence.
This isn't a matter of lack of will, rather it is a question of organising an effective political group to give a voice to that support.
Find a good political, charismatic leader, get some efficient organisation, and the rest will follow.
South of the border it's early days yet, compared with the movement established for Independence in Scotland, but there is certainly sufficient support in England for an English parliament to re-emerge.
There is the will, and there will be a way.
As a Scot I would support an English parliament in an Independent England.
That is not a negative kind of support, but one of giving it full backing.
I believe it is in the interests of both Scotland and England to have their full Independence. With that comes the mutual respect resulting from the recognition of each others right to sovereignty.
Friendship from our two neighbouring countries, with many of us having family and friends on both sides of the border, won't be damaged by Independence, it can only get better.
Less chips on shoulder, less arrogance.
I have full respect for the English flag and what it represents.
I have no such thoughts for the Union flag.
72

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 13:39:51
Now they have backtracked on a referendum on Europe but give credit when credit is due, at least they did not run out of the chamber and cried "WAH WAH WAH WAH" , "We are the lib fibs and should be taken seriously"


Hmmm, pathetic little party..!!
73

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:44:05
27 Malc F - France

You are clearly a moron.

Your country voted AGAINST the treaty as well. Or didnt you notice. Or maybe you arent bright enough over there to realise that the Lisbon one is just a way of changing a coupole of words and getting it through undemocratically. Well over here our education is excellent and we CAN read.

The tories ARENT in so I dont know what you are ranting about.

You references to the US protecting us as quite funny. Especially as many countires incluidng us and the US you are so nasty about have saved your asses many times in recent history, because you arent capable.

Im happy to be PART of Europe, but not a STATe of Europe. you need us there anyway, your economy is crumbling.
74

Lastsocialist,

Paris, France 06/03/2008 13:48:03
Time for a United States of Europe built on federal republican lines. The EU is a joke. What Scotland, England, France and Europe need is a democratic superstate that, with 450 million inhabitants, will be the world's largest economic, and potentially military, power. 70% of UK trade is done with the rest of Europe so it is time Scots and English faced economic realities. Scottish independence is really an irrelevance compared with the larger geopolitical issues. It is a shame that Brown, Salmond, Cameron do not have the political vision to see what is needed.
75

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:48:29
80 European Scot

Brilliant, intelligent and thoughtful post. Independence for both countries is what is needed. and then friendship and cooperation.

Grown up politics, I wish more were like you!
76

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 13:48:54
#80 European scot

I agree with most of your post (95.3%) but the quickest was for the English to vote for Independence is for Alex Salmond to announce that the Scottish Government will pay all household fuel bills in Scotland, that really would upset the banana trolly.
77

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:52:40
83 Lastsocialist,Paris, France

You arent serious. Hand over control of the best army, one of the strongest economies so you lot can ruin it. With your indecisive, weak, corrupt, pc liberalism.

No thanks, you people have shown that while rome burns your response is to form 5 comittees to agree on a plan to find out how high the flames are.
78

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 13:57:36
Lastsocialist,Paris, France 06/03/2008 13:48:03

Scottish independence is really an irrelevance compared with the larger geopolitical issues?

#Well not in Scotland but that's like saying the war in Iraq is of little irrelevance to the people in the south pole, of course it is, its nothing to do with them!!

BTW, Europe is already the largest economy in the world but i doubt it will ever become a global super power in terms of military might
79

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 14:02:45
Now back to the silly Dems..

Storm over LibDem 'sweets from strangers' election handbook
Conservatives have protested after the Liberal Democrats issued an official party manual which calls on local election candidates to peddle sweets to children to entice them to deliver election leaflets.

Eric Pickles, Deputy Chairman and Shadow Local Government Minister, has accused the Liberal Democrats of irresponsible behaviour and has also fired off a letter to Lib Dem chief executive Lord Rennard demanding the document's withdrawal within 48 hours.

Calling for the manual - entitled 'Winning Elections' - to be withdrawn, Mr Pickles commented: "Political parties have to be responsible and not encourage children to get in potentially dangerous situations. No responsible adult should ever entice unsupervised children to take sweets

How can you let your children near this lot? next thing the Libs fibs will roll out Ming the ping and tell children that he is a mummified fossil from the jurassic period!!
80

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 14:04:51
#83 - arguably, Scottish Independence has never been more important. There is something cripplingly wrong about the way the UK feeds London at the expense of the rest of us. Its no coincidence that the poorest parts of the UK are the furthers/most remote from London. Cornwall, Northern Ireland, Northwest Scotland. Also no coincidence that all three I've mentioned have their own independence movements (granted, NI is a special case).

As for urban poverty...if London had the urban poverty and deprivation indicators that Glasgow has, there would have been a revolution by now. The government would be shamed into changing it. Instead, Labour has just happily sat back and done nothing for people that they know will remain their core vote...or so they thought. Independence is the only solution.
81

Sanny,

06/03/2008 14:09:40
Did anyone listen to the speech by Ken Clarke during the EU referendum debate?

In his speech he made it clear that the Electorate can never be trusted with a referendum. Decisions, he said, should be made by “THE RULING CLASS”!!! His words - not mine.

I thought that all these dinosaurs were dead and buried. Apparently not, they have a safe haven in Westminster. The time has come when we should abandon Westminster and all the dinosaurs contained therein!

If Westminster will not agree to a referendum on this and more importantly, Scottish Independence, then AS should proclaim a UDI. I for one would take to the streets and even to arms to defend such a decision. We must free ourselves from the iniquity of this Union then extract our country from the other Union of Europe.
82

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

06/03/2008 14:10:49
#89 Sgurr, indeed London really is a special case

Mr Salmond pointed out in a BBC interview that the Barnett formula debate ignored the fact that England, particularly London, benefited heavily from spending on UK departments such as defence and the Treasury. The best solution was to allow Scotland and England to take separate control over their own revenue and expenditure. He told yesterday's SNP conference that having oil revenues would move Scotland from being the EU's 10th most prosperous country to its third
83

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 14:12:26
89 Sgurr

The Uk doesnt feed London. Its London and the SE of england that feeds the UK. Fact. some 80% of the total economy.

Now before to start accusing me of being a Southerner, please take a look at where I live.

Yes, we can argue that more should go to poorer regions with some justification. but to pretend that money, primarily from the overtaxed private sector hasnt been poured into region and services without any performace measures is just cloud cookooland.
84

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 14:14:18
#89 Sgurr. What planet are you on? Have you been to Deptford recently? Or Dagenham? Or Southall? The poorest parts of the UK include at least two London Boroughs (Hackney & Tower Hamlets).The UK does not, by any stretch of the imagination, feed London. Quite the opposite in fact. London generates far more towards the UK's GDP than it receives back in Government funding.
85

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 14:16:04
91 Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say

Except the sea and who its resources belong to are an International issue, not an automatic one. you dont own the sea. Who owns that area of the sea and its resources is the person(s) with the most resources and guns. You ready to compete on that basis, I think not?