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Published Date: 06 March 2008
THE government saw off a rebellion over Europe last night, winning a crucial vote to repel calls for a referendum on signing up to the EU reform treaty.
25 of Gordon Brown's Labour MPs defied a three-line whip to vote for referendum whilst David Cameron Faces anti-Europe fervour among many Tory young turks
25 of Gordon Brown's Labour MPs defied a three-line whip to vote for referendum whilst David Cameron Faces anti-Europe fervour among many Tory young turks
In a vote where rebels in all three main parties defied the whips, the government won with a majority of 63. But the issue, which continues to divide parties both internally and across the dispatch box, left a huge split in the ranks of the Liberal Democrats, with three of the party's front-bench spokesmen resigning.

The government's victory will be a huge relief for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who saw 25 of his own MPs defy a three-line whip to vote in favour of a referendum. Some 13 Lib Dems, including the three now former front-benchers, Alistair Carmichael, David Heath and Tim Farron, voted with the Tories in calling for a referendum, while a handful of Conservatives voted with the government.

The SNP MPs also voted against the government, and in favour of a referendum. Among them was the party leader, Alex Salmond, who made a rare appearance at Westminster to cast his vote.

The outcome means the decision on whether to sign up to the controversial treaty, which opponents claim is nothing short of a European Constitution, will now be taken by parliament.

The most potentially toxic of all the heated debates were the internal wrangles facing Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader.

Mr Carmichael, his Scottish affairs spokesman, said: "For a front-bench spokesman to defy his party's whip is a serious situation and one which I have not taken lightly. It is not something which can be done while remaining in post.

"Although I do not on this issue agree with my party leader, I remain supportive of his leadership and look forward to continuing to work with him to advance our party's cause, even if this is not to be from the front-bench."

Moments before tendering his resignation, Mr Carmichael, the Orkney and Shetland MP, had told The Scotsman: "I think Nick Clegg is a good leader, but he is a good leader with whom I disagree today."

Mr Clegg said: "I greatly regret the loss of David, Tim and Alistair from the shadow cabinet. They have served with great distinction and commitment.

"However, as they have recognised, the shadow cabinet cannot operate effectively unless the principle of collective responsibility is maintained."

Across the party divide, hostilities were more transparent, and it was a debate dogged with fiery exchanges.

Even earlier, during Prime Minister's Questions, the issue of Europe dominated, and Mr Brown told David Cameron, the Tory leader: "If this was a constitutional treaty we would hold a referendum."

He said the issue of Europe had been decided more than 30 years ago, and went on: "The Conservative Party leadership is being driven by the Eurosceptics on their back-benches. We need to put the pro-European case in the country. But I have to say to you that to go back to the 1970s and relive a referendum in the 1970s is not the way to plan for the future. The way to plan for the future is to have an agenda for a global Europe, which is exactly what this government has."

Mr Cameron turned his fire on both the government and the Lib Dems, saying: "The truth is all of us in this House promised a referendum. We have the courage of our convictions and are sticking to that promise – you have lost your courage and that lot (the Lib Dems] have lost their convictions."

Mr Brown insisted the Tory proposals for a referendum would put the country's membership of the EU at risk. "Why won't you wake up to the fact that 3.5 million jobs are dependent on our membership of the EU?" he asked.

David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, insisted a referendum should be held only when a "fundamental" shift of power was to take place. And he said the Treaty of Lisbon did not represent a fundamental shift and any referendum was, in a sense, an abdication of power by parliament and the government of the day.

He went on: "This government intend to make no such abdication of their responsibilities; neither do we intend to invite the House to abdicate from its responsibility."

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, asked MPs: "What has really changed between Tony Blair standing at the dispatch box and saying let battle be joined in a referendum in April 2004, and the current Prime Minister saying let battle be avoided at any cost and please don't let me be photographed at the signing ceremony? Two things have changed – the general election of 2005 was got out of the way and the government have decided that a referendum cannot be held because they do not think they would win it."

At the end of the Commons debate, the government's majority was further increased with a 311-247 vote against Scottish Labour rebel Ian Davidson's proposal for a two-question referendum.

While Europe dominated yesterday, its problematic roots go back decades. It has brought down two modern-day Tory prime ministers, seen a U-turn from the Labour Party on its position of the 1980s and it now threatens the position of the country's newest party leader.

It was the killer resignation speech of Geoffrey Howe as foreign secretary that did for Margaret Thatcher, while John Major railed against the Euro-sceptic "bastards" who prompted his decision to stand down as party leader, in an attempt to force his critics to unite behind him.

Today, Mr Cameron is not regarded as an enthusiast on Europe, and the Tory big hitters on the issue remain the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine. The Conservative leader also has to contend with an anti-Europe fervour among many of his young turks.

It was Tony Blair who promised in 2004 that Britain would have a referendum – though that was before the draft EU constitution was rejected by France and the Netherlands in 2005 and gave birth to the reform, or Lisbon, treaty. That was seen as a supposedly watered-down version that would be more acceptable to member states.

Mr Brown continues to maintain that there is no need for a referendum because the treaty is not of equal significance to a redrafted constitution. But many observers think this is because he fears the outcome of a UK vote on Europe would be a rejection of Europe.

CHANGING THE FACE OF EUROPE

• THE Lisbon Treaty establishes the post of president of the European Council.

The holder – Tony Blair, the former British prime minister, has been suggested by Nicolas Sarkozy, the president of France – will serve for two and a half years at a time for a maximum of two terms. This post will replace the system whereby the presidency rotates between member countries every six months. However, the job carries no executive powers.

• Another new post will be a European Union high representative for foreign affairs and security, uniting two jobs and giving the holder greater diplomatic clout and control over the EU's foreign aid budget. The intention is to give the EU a bigger presence on the world stage. The high representative will put the case – if there is a united one – of EU members at the United Nations Security Council.

• The European Commission – the EU's "cabinet" – will shrink from 2014, with fewer commissioners than member states (currently 27). Only two-thirds of countries will have a commissioner at any one time.

• The number of votes held by each member state will be redistributed, while the national veto will be removed in a number of areas. Under the new rules, a vote will be passed if 55 per cent of states are in favour – 15 out of 27 – and if they represent 65 per cent of the EU's population. It is also passed if fewer than four countries oppose it.

• New powers in fields such as justice and home affairs will be handed to the commission, European Parliament and European Court of Justice. But the UK can opt in or out of any policies in these areas.

• The treaty contains provisions allowing member states to agree that decisions currently passed only by unanimous vote can in future be agreed by a majority – although not on defence – in 45 to 70 policy areas. However, some are very technical.

• All 27 member states must ratify the treaty. before it can come into effect. If so, it should begin to come into effect from 2009.

WHO'S DOING WHAT

THE countries whose parliaments will be left to decide the fate of the European Reform Treaty are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Sweden.

The countries which have already agreed to ratify the treaty are: France, Hungary, Malta, Romania and Slovenia.

Ireland is the only member state which has agreed to hold a referendum. It will be staged in May or June.

Speculation of yet another Lib Dem leadership battle grows as Clegg struggles to make mark

NICK Clegg has only been in the job three months, but already his actions have triggered speculation that yet another contest to lead the Liberal Democrats could soon be under way.

Mr Clegg, who only narrowly won the party leadership, has done what to most Lib Dems is an affront to their party's principles: imposed a three-line whip ordering all MPs to abstain from voting on the European referendum motions.

The new leader was furious that the Commons Speaker had not allowed a vote on the "official" Lib Dem amendment.

This would have called for a referendum on whether the UK should be in or out of Europe. But what was originally an idea from Sir Menzies Campbell, Mr Clegg's predecessor, held no sway with up to a quarter of the parliamentary party.

One senior MP told The Scotsman: "(Mr Clegg] has asked us to abstain on an issue where passions run incredibly high. Banning a vote – effectively stifling democracy – is a concept that is alien to the Lib Dems."

Despite being a pro-European party, many Lib Dems hold seats in eurosceptic areas of the country and represent rural constituents who feel they have been hammered by Brussels.

The other factor that has made Lib Dems uncomfortable is that the party promised a vote on the constitutional treaty in its manifesto. But Mr Clegg, pictured below, effectively signed up to the government's line – that the treaty differs from the previously rejected constitution – to justify his refusal to hold a vote on it.

Even before the current bust-up, party insiders had been disappointed with Mr Clegg's performances.

The Sheffield Hallam MP has been playing it safe after the party was dogged by bad headlines in the final months of the leaderships of Charles Kennedy and Sir Menzies.

His worst fear, insiders say, is having the Lib Dems be the subject of the wrong sort of controversy or ridicule.

However, he has also been plagued by comparisons with David Cameron, although this is arguably more problematic for the Conservative leader.

The former MEP is telegenic and well spoken, and he has not yet stumbled at Prime Minister's Questions. But he has also failed to seize the initiative or headlines since becoming leader.

Mr Clegg has also been criticised for not having a clear narrative or message to send to the electorate.

He has been largely inoffensive, but the Lib Dems must broaden their appeal to get even the same level of votes as they did at the 2005 general election.

Under Mr Kennedy, the party secured its most successful results – largely attributed to the Iraq war. The potency of the war will have dissipated by the time of the next election, probably next year, leaving the Lib Dems without their unique selling point.

Meanwhile, the Tories have managed to encroach on the Lib Dems' other main brand: the civil liberties agenda.

All parties have now signed up, at least rhetorically, to the "green" policies once espoused only by the Lib Dems.

While Mr Clegg may have felt that his actions were strong, decisive and principled, 13 of his own MPs disagreed so strongly that they defied him.

It is an inauspicious start for a leader who has had to follow the high standards set by caretaker leader Vince Cable.

GERRI PPEV



The full article contains 2090 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 March 2008 9:32 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: European Union
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

06/03/2008 00:04:57
This will come back to haunt Comrade Broon more than any of his other lies and deceit.
Roll on election day.
2

,

06/03/2008 00:12:20
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3

subrosa,

06/03/2008 02:09:21
If Eire vote against then it can't be ratified? Am I right or is that wishful thinking?
4

,

06/03/2008 02:17:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
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5

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

06/03/2008 04:47:25
I once read an EU statistic that said that Moray had the lowest standard of living in the entire EU. I think either Highlands and Islands or Banff and Buchan took third. The stat appeared around 1999.

Looking out from my primary school window, I used to watch the oil rigs go to Nigg/Ardesier for refitting etc etc little realising that I bordered one of the worlds biggest oil deposits.

Strange the poverty.

ITS NOT EUROPE THATS THE PROBLEM.
6

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

06/03/2008 04:55:04
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

7

,

06/03/2008 06:16:50
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8

donald,

glasgow 06/03/2008 06:37:41
What about a democratic referendum for Scotland?
9

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 06/03/2008 06:58:03
So Tony Blair is King (without pedigree) of Europe, and Brown expects to take his turn. Presidents are only politicians who would be king but do not bring anything to the office like the Royal family do. Who will come 1000s of miles to see King Tony (unless they bring a bag of rotten tomatoes or worse) and bring $$$ to the econony?
10

Jimmy the Pie,

06/03/2008 07:14:44
I see the Johnston Press results aren't looking very good!
Would this be due, in no small part, to the idiotic stance they have taken with the SNP government or the idiots they employ as journalists??
11

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 07:27:23
I was so annoyed about this that I have just bought the domain name www.thelabourparty.org which was amazingly available and I have started posting the truth about these traitors and their regime in the hope that Labour voters will stumble across it and learn the truth.

I've made a nice graphic that shows what the Government is doing to Britain.
12

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 06/03/2008 07:30:39
Presidents cost the same as monarchs with more problems as they don't know their place. It has not been dug yet.
13

inoui,

Bangkok 06/03/2008 07:36:31
Never understood why the UK is the only country in the EU that refusues to have a refurendum which ever political party is in power.
14

steve 1511,

aberdeen 06/03/2008 07:54:31
the lies of labour.you can have a vote,to you cannot have a vote,how can blair a man who is renowned for dishonesty and lies be considered for any position in europe
15

Paul W,

United States of Europe (English Province) 06/03/2008 07:59:17
Who votes for a party whose key policy is to abstain on a referendum that changes the constitution of the UK when it relates to the EU, but would vote for a referendum on Scots or Welsh devolution? I've a feeling that the LibDem MPs will be back to sharing the one taxi after the next GE. They were beaten by UKIP at the last EU elections, they might have to get used to that as well.
16

A Better Way,

06/03/2008 08:03:00
Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:Newsflash:

It appears that the Unelected by the People, Prime Minister of London has once again lied to the people of the countries that are part of these Islands. Much to our embarassment it appears that this proven liar, has some form of Scottish Parentage, even though his loyalties are mainly to his beloved London.

Never being the brightest of polticians to come out of Scotland, it has now come to light that his many years in Londons smog and brightlights has somehow affected his ability to tell the truth or stop stealing from the public purse. He has fell in with a bad crowd, including the Alistair Darling, who paid 100 billion quid for an empty Piggybank, Douglas Alexander, who is a very close night time comfort for the Brown fellow himself. A true son of the Kirk. Des Browne who frowns when he attempts a smile and batters anyone who talks badly of Brown. He is constantly battering Scottish Labour into submission so much they cannot think or act for themselves.

Now dont any of you real Scots worry. Our Country will take our fishing grounds back for the benefit of our nation, and the same applies to the Oil that Brown Stole from us. Scotland will enter/not enter the EU only as a result of referendum of the Scottish People.

Its Time For The Scottish Way in Our Own Country. Vote out of Office every Britnat MP and Replace Them With Scottish Patriots Commited To Our Nation. They will light a fire under the Scottish Turncoats just as they did when they exposed the Cash for Honours Corruption by Blair and Brown.
17

Ken S.,

Reading 06/03/2008 08:22:42
#12 Rulesbutnotrulers,
".. Never vote..."
The problem is that if you refuse to vote until there is proper democracy, that idyllic situation will never arise. Politicians don't give a damn about those who don't vote, as they're just assumed to be happy with how they're governed.

Always vote, even if it is for the looniest one (other than a major party!) on the ballot paper. At very least, attend the poll and write "none of the above" on the ballot paper.
18

Nellie,

Liverpool 06/03/2008 08:26:50
#12, Yup. Democracy stinks, and this Government is fairly ripe, too, when it comes to honesty and open government. But what is the alternative?
19

scottish person,

paisley 06/03/2008 08:32:47
You dont have to guess who the hootsmon support. Broon licker. Ayrshire scot, change your name, you are no scot
20

rancid brown,

Gordon Brown: hang, draw and quarter 06/03/2008 08:55:16
#16 Well done! That's the sort of direct action we need. I can't understand why more people aren't getting angry over this.

We need more people to go over to Ireland in the lead up to their referendum in order to inform the locals of the EU lies.

Believe it or not, the Tories are essentially pro-EU too. Only UKIP will get us out of this nightmare.
21

Malc.F,

france 06/03/2008 08:56:07
please have a referendum on the UK leaving Europe.It is a cert that with the little englander mentality prevalent in the UK that you will leave and good bloody riddance.
Are you really stupid enough to vote the tories in again?Will you never learn?
Still, never mind you will always have the wonderful USA to guide and protect you when the Chinese come calling.
22

Guga II,

Rockall 06/03/2008 08:57:47
Maggie Broon: Stalinist, totalitarian control freak, blatant liar, charlatan and war criminal.
23

Fraz 0810,

Dunfermline 06/03/2008 09:05:37
#6 Subrosa - Technically, a referendum vote by the Irish would give the tseoich a mandate/requirement to vote against the treaty, which would effectively kill it. In reality, it would mean Eire being kicked out of the union, always supposing the other countries agreed to ratify it. The only way Eire could stay in the union is if the treaty were knocked back by other countries and it effectively died. However, this is not going to happen, as 1. none of the other government's are holding referendum's; and 2. the treaty was drawn up by the members - a turkey voting for christmas methinks.

It's all fine and well for everyone on the forum to start shouting and bawling about Broon not giving us a referendum, but the only time we will get a vote is on the actual constitution - not a treaty. Like it or not, the politicians are voted in to do our bidding in these circumstances. If we are really asking for a referendum on this, then why don't we just scrap the parliament vote and have ad-hoc referendum's on every issue? Seriously, this is nowhere near a "REAL" referndum issue, and this has been borne out by the parliamentray vote.
24

Nikostratos,

06/03/2008 09:06:56
HE Lisbon Treaty establishes the post of president of the European Council.

The holder – Tony Blair, the former British prime minister


Oh yes tony for prezz of all Europe..............


...............Thought for the day

The snp Drones Favorite word 'LIAR' because it is what they know best
25

sweet76,

Coventry 06/03/2008 09:11:42
Democracy in action. This Government is deperate to be a part of the continental soialist's club and are prepared to supress all debate on the subject.
Britain has not benefitted from membership and is time we left.
If you want to rebuild the fishing industry and manage the fishing grounds better: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to sign a trade agreement with China: You have to do it as part of Europe.
Want to deport foreign criminals after they've served thier time: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to reduce the amount of packaging on toys: you can't, Europe won't let you.
Want to subsidise French Tabacco farmers: Great idea!

The peoples of these islands should have the right to thier say.
26

Banana Heid,

ayrshire 06/03/2008 09:15:13
16# Stewart C. Well done on getting that domain it's a really good 1 to get, However after reading your ramblings I have come to the conclusion that you are clearly bonkers and should hand the domain rights across to someone with a grip on reality...Shame really as it could have been such a great site...
27

Alan B,

06/03/2008 09:27:29
There are a couple of different issues here.

Firstly i do not think a referendum is appropriate. A situation where if one country votes no means that the agreement of all the other countries is therefore abandoned. It seems right that governments try to come to some sort of agreement and make compromises as necessary in order to reach an agreement.

Having said that Britain should have a referendum on continued membership. That would allow people the choice of wether to remain within this club or not.

Part of the problem is the tory line. They support the eu because they see it as an economic disaster in waiting if we leave. (remembering the declining nature of the british economy in the 60s and 70s). But do not want the integration that most other countries seem to want. We therefore find ourselves in a sitation where there is a general negativity (in england atleast) about the eu, but not will to leave.

I do however believe the eu could be reformed in a more positive way. Countries should be free to join the euro or not without being forced. There does seem to much interference in certain areas. Decisions should only be taken centrally where there is a clear advantage. I would like to see CAP reformed so that countries subsidise there own farmers, with a move then to create a free market in argiculture within the there after but protected from outside.

I do believe developing a foreign policy would be a good idea. It is much better to be pro active and try to use the economic and political muscle to prevent disputes getting out hand.

28

Alan B,

06/03/2008 09:29:30
One thing i forgot to say. Blair having commited to a referendum meant that it should take place. Brown should really have called the general election after he took over and made clear that he would not have a referendum if he won.
29

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 09:30:24
I don't think I trust Brown and Labour enough to tell the truth about the significance of this vote. The fact that so many of his party broke the whip rather suggests he is telling porky pies though, and that this is important. Like the death-throws of any party, the leader is struggling to maintain control. Must be difficult to cope with when you are a control freak.
30

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 09:40:25
It is quite simple. The Government (i.e. the real Government, not the pseudo-regime in Edin) would certainly have lost a referendum. Therefore, there is no chance of such a vote being held. The same way all Governments defy the will of the people if they scent a loss at the polls. An alternative, rarely allowed, is to hold a referendum but to make sure the question is put in such a way as to engineer the desired result. In short, the will of the people has been defied and that is an absoulte disgrace.
31

Moscow Central 42,

06/03/2008 09:43:45

When will the (leadership) of the Liberal Democrats learn that abstaining from a vote on a critical issue merely reinforces the widespread public perception that they are a bunch of unprincipled political fence sitters. I am being charitable and have chosen my words with great care.They recently behaved in exactly the same way when it came to the vote on the Scottish budget.
32

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 09:51:35
#38 - that more or less sums it up! Scottish referendum? Nae chance.
33

Doh,

06/03/2008 09:52:04
#39 Moscow

Abstention is perfectly fine, although in this case I wish they had voted for a referedum.

The focus now switches to the Tory Europhobes will they promise to repeal this treaty if they form teh next government or are they just full of hot air and were scoring party political points?

Which is all you can manage.

I wish more Labour MPs had abstained rather than voting for the disasterous Iraq war.
34

Stu_R_20,

edinburgh 06/03/2008 09:52:20
I'm honestly spitting with anger over this!! I have never seen such utter disregard for the electorates opinion, it is time to assemble the weapons and begin the long march south!!!
Brown has indefinately sealed his fate at the next election, I will be voting tactically for the Tories or SNP.
35

Iain's,

06/03/2008 09:55:37
Just because Paw Broon comes from Kircaldy and not Dundee does not mean that he has not been promoted way beyond his station.

36

Doh,

06/03/2008 10:02:31
#39 Moscow

Sorry - I just realised you were being funny -

of course I remember the Labour party abstained over the Scottish Budget as well. What a bunch of fence sitters.

Very good - you are a funny socialist.

I stil wish Labour MPs had abstained over the Iraq war though. That isnt quite so so funny.
37

,

06/03/2008 10:05:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 06/03/2008 10:36:30
In 1983 someone described the then Labour manifesto as 'the longest suicide note' in history. That seems nothing compared to what Labour are doing now. Their barefaced lies and contempt for democracy is a recipe for party suicide. I see they are still plunging ahead with the ID card timetable despite its financial impractability, nevermind the other concerns such as all the data fiascos, and that it won't stop terrorism.

Its difficult to see what else Labour have to do to kill themselves off.
39

Geoff,

sa 06/03/2008 10:45:35
The Union Jack is a beautiful flag-specially with that golden fringe! :)
40

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 06/03/2008 10:51:38
And the next day; The Home Secretary launches her views on the proposed ID Card. Result..like lambs the media follow her and bad news day of UK peasants not being allowed vote on the non EU treaty is buried.
Fine chap this Brown. Great to see the "Great Leader" is to be President of Europe. With him and Hillary in charge what worries can we possibly have?
Come on Ireland rescue us!
Great idea sending a puppet to the song contest. Speakes volumes!
41

subrosa,

06/03/2008 10:53:17
#29 Fraz

Thanks for the explanation. I agree Eire wouldn't want out.

#45 Scott

Keep at it Scott, eventually the penny will drop.
42

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 10:54:07
48.Geoff, I find the union flag a bit busy, too much crammed into it. Perhaps it would be more attractive is one the design elements were removed?

Lib Dems abstain? I thought they backed a referendum on this?

And I thought Labour had a referendum on this in their manifesto?
43

bill2,

06/03/2008 10:56:23
We now rely on the unelected and mostly appointed members of the House of Lords to overturn the government's conspiracy to abolish Britain's independence.

A forlorn hope indeed, but the only chance we have to keep our democracy and get out of the EU.
44

Mikko,

Loch Ness 06/03/2008 10:58:35
It was simple: Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories all PROMISED a referendum in their manifestos. Only the Tories kept their promise. Come the next election the rest will find a huge mill stone hangs around their neck. I hope they come begging for votes to my door because I'll just say, "oh that's your manifesto is it - you'd told the biggest of lies last time so you know where you can stick it this time"
45

Doh,

06/03/2008 11:03:30
#46 clarry

Never trust the SNP.

Especially over the Trump application.

Some SNP councillors voted for it, some SNP voted against it.

Some SNP voted against it and then voted for it.

Some SNP voted against it but then voted against the chairman who also happened to vote against it.

Then the SNP minister has referred it to a public inquiry even though it is of national importance.

The SNP are sitting on the out of bounds post.
46

Publius,

London 06/03/2008 11:04:52
The government is not only unprincipled. It is stupid. If there was a referendum Labour and the LibDems would almost all unite to campaign for a yes vote. The Tories would be deeply divided with all the wounds of the Major years being reopened. The yes vote would likely win. A general election would follow and the Tories would be defeated.
After yesterday Labour looks unpincipled, the LibDems look stupid and the Tories are smelling of roses.
47

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 11:06:53
Banana Heid, #33. Thank you for your kind words.

I learned a great saying recently: "it's none of my business what people think about me."

As for www.thelabourparty.org, I suggest you have a good think about what I have written.

I have much more info to post about the MPs who want to lower the age of consent (incl. homosexual) to 13 (between teenagers with up to 3 years age difference).

There are the damaged individuals who want to teach 4 and 5 year old children about sex.

Yet, you think I'm mad.

You could be right. Maybe 5 year olds should be learning how to place a condom over a banana, Mr Banana Heid!
48

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 11:11:50
Banana Heid, #33, by the way, I have received four emails from strangers this morning congratulating me on my new website and basically agreeing with me. That's 4 out of 4.
49

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 11:15:04
16. Stewart

try out: scottishlabourparty.org

http://www.scottishlabourparty.org/

50

subrosa,

06/03/2008 11:40:29
# 56

Keep up the good work. Souter was lambasted for his attempt to stop the Clause but he was right. Do parents take an interest in their children anymore? Have they seen the type of material their very young children are being taught in sex 'discussions'?

Before anyone shouts about 'old fashioned' it's quite untrue. The labour party opened the gates for our children to be indoctrinated with this information. What good has sex education done? None. We still have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.

No other country teaches sex education to infants. It's morally wrong. When my grandchildren appear I shall ensure their parents SEE the material they are taught. Every last word of it.
51

Conan the Librarian™,

06/03/2008 11:46:25
51
Do you mean the white-fimbriated symmetric red cross,by any chance, Ayrshire?
52

davydee,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 11:49:56
#Stewart C
Brilliant the truth as it should be known all posters should hit this link
www.thelabourparty.org
53

Gusto,

06/03/2008 12:01:39
While the East block get more democratic - the West block gets less democratic.
And there's a queue of has-been polititians clamouring to be the first Stalin.
Highly dangerous course of events - wonder where they plan the first gulag..
54

davydee,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 12:02:21
#33 Bannana Heid
So #16 Stewart is bonkers but its the truth I say your bonkers this is the real world
55

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06/03/2008 12:08:35
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06/03/2008 12:09:45
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European Scot,

06/03/2008 12:21:39
48 Geoff,sa

Ah, such nostalgia from you Geoff.
" The Union Jack is a beautiful flag-specially with that golden fringe !
Or could that be interpreted as ......specially with that edge of 'guilt' !
Unfortunately it is a flag that remains for many around the world a symbol of British Empire, of colonial rule.
Ah dreams from the past of Unionist Heaven !
Imagine even one country being ruled over and controlled by another state.
So hard to believe in this day and age !
Under that nice big red cross, you'll see the fragmented white cross on a blue background.
This partially obscured element, better known by locals as the Saltire, will soon be re-emerging in its full splendour on the World stage. The flag of Scotland.
So too will the flag of England.
We as English and Scots won't become enemies, or be any the worse for it.
Quite the opposite.
It's just time to move on.
It's called democracy.
58

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 12:28:40
Why is rule from Brussels supposed to be bad and rule from Westminster good?

They're both multi-national superstates!
59

bill-alba,

fife 06/03/2008 12:30:05
#54 "DOH" enough said.
60

kimba,

06/03/2008 12:37:48
68.What dream was that in? you seem to forget non of our political parties are to eager to change things!
61

slap-dash,

land of milk and honey 06/03/2008 12:50:07
Kimba

He was talking about the "Butchers Apron" !

Also you are right for once. None of you`re political parties are eager for change but I do not beleive he was talking about you`re political parties.
62

Busymale,

06/03/2008 13:06:11
This party is a bunch of dictators who have no regard for democracy and the opinions of the people. If its not telling you what to think, say, eat or do it's telling us we're too stupid to vote.

Come the election, come the end.
63

subrosa,

06/03/2008 13:08:51
# 67

Thanks for that Meths, I thought I was due an appointment with my optician :)
64

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 06/03/2008 13:18:00
Thank you to everyone who has visited my brand new website http://www.thelabourparty.org/ and commented or emailed me.

I'm glad so many people recognise the truth; it is very encouraging indeed.

Thanks for the link to scottishlabourparty.org, Ayrshire Scot. That was a surprise as well! Of course an independent Scotland has to be free from the all-seeing, all-conquering EU, like Norway.

Thank you Dragonhead and davydee.

I have to go to bed, I was up all night doing the website!

We have to educate people and remind the MPs that they work for us.
65

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 13:29:10
Ah, the internet access tokens have been handed out at last! Time to sit back and soak up this afternoon's entertainment.
66

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06/03/2008 13:33:42
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06/03/2008 13:35:52
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European Scot,

06/03/2008 13:37:10
71 Kimba

You are correct in that none of your mainstream parties in England currently support the idea of Independence.
However there are many people in England from across the political spectrum who do support English Independence.
This isn't a matter of lack of will, rather it is a question of organising an effective political group to give a voice to that support.
Find a good political, charismatic leader, get some efficient organisation, and the rest will follow.
South of the border it's early days yet, compared with the movement established for Independence in Scotland, but there is certainly sufficient support in England for an English parliament to re-emerge.
There is the will, and there will be a way.
As a Scot I would support an English parliament in an Independent England.
That is not a negative kind of support, but one of giving it full backing.
I believe it is in the interests of both Scotland and England to have their full Independence. With that comes the mutual respect resulting from the recognition of each others right to sovereignty.
Friendship from our two neighbouring countries, with many of us having family and friends on both sides of the border, won't be damaged by Independence, it can only get better.
Less chips on shoulder, less arrogance.
I have full respect for the English flag and what it represents.
I have no such thoughts for the Union flag.
69

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06/03/2008 13:39:51
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70

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:44:05
27 Malc F - France

You are clearly a moron.

Your country voted AGAINST the treaty as well. Or didnt you notice. Or maybe you arent bright enough over there to realise that the Lisbon one is just a way of changing a coupole of words and getting it through undemocratically. Well over here our education is excellent and we CAN read.

The tories ARENT in so I dont know what you are ranting about.

You references to the US protecting us as quite funny. Especially as many countires incluidng us and the US you are so nasty about have saved your asses many times in recent history, because you arent capable.

Im happy to be PART of Europe, but not a STATe of Europe. you need us there anyway, your economy is crumbling.
71

Lastsocialist,

Paris, France 06/03/2008 13:48:03
Time for a United States of Europe built on federal republican lines. The EU is a joke. What Scotland, England, France and Europe need is a democratic superstate that, with 450 million inhabitants, will be the world's largest economic, and potentially military, power. 70% of UK trade is done with the rest of Europe so it is time Scots and English faced economic realities. Scottish independence is really an irrelevance compared with the larger geopolitical issues. It is a shame that Brown, Salmond, Cameron do not have the political vision to see what is needed.
72

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:48:29
80 European Scot

Brilliant, intelligent and thoughtful post. Independence for both countries is what is needed. and then friendship and cooperation.

Grown up politics, I wish more were like you!
73

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06/03/2008 13:48:54
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ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 13:52:40
83 Lastsocialist,Paris, France

You arent serious. Hand over control of the best army, one of the strongest economies so you lot can ruin it. With your indecisive, weak, corrupt, pc liberalism.

No thanks, you people have shown that while rome burns your response is to form 5 comittees to agree on a plan to find out how high the flames are.
75

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06/03/2008 13:57:36
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06/03/2008 14:02:45
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Sgurr,

06/03/2008 14:04:51
#83 - arguably, Scottish Independence has never been more important. There is something cripplingly wrong about the way the UK feeds London at the expense of the rest of us. Its no coincidence that the poorest parts of the UK are the furthers/most remote from London. Cornwall, Northern Ireland, Northwest Scotland. Also no coincidence that all three I've mentioned have their own independence movements (granted, NI is a special case).

As for urban poverty...if London had the urban poverty and deprivation indicators that Glasgow has, there would have been a revolution by now. The government would be shamed into changing it. Instead, Labour has just happily sat back and done nothing for people that they know will remain their core vote...or so they thought. Independence is the only solution.
78

Sanny,

06/03/2008 14:09:40
Did anyone listen to the speech by Ken Clarke during the EU referendum debate?

In his speech he made it clear that the Electorate can never be trusted with a referendum. Decisions, he said, should be made by “THE RULING CLASS”!!! His words - not mine.

I thought that all these dinosaurs were dead and buried. Apparently not, they have a safe haven in Westminster. The time has come when we should abandon Westminster and all the dinosaurs contained therein!

If Westminster will not agree to a referendum on this and more importantly, Scottish Independence, then AS should proclaim a UDI. I for one would take to the streets and even to arms to defend such a decision. We must free ourselves from the iniquity of this Union then extract our country from the other Union of Europe.
79

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06/03/2008 14:10:49
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80

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 14:12:26
89 Sgurr

The Uk doesnt feed London. Its London and the SE of england that feeds the UK. Fact. some 80% of the total economy.

Now before to start accusing me of being a Southerner, please take a look at where I live.

Yes, we can argue that more should go to poorer regions with some justification. but to pretend that money, primarily from the overtaxed private sector hasnt been poured into region and services without any performace measures is just cloud cookooland.
81

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 14:14:18
#89 Sgurr. What planet are you on? Have you been to Deptford recently? Or Dagenham? Or Southall? The poorest parts of the UK include at least two London Boroughs (Hackney & Tower Hamlets).The UK does not, by any stretch of the imagination, feed London. Quite the opposite in fact. London generates far more towards the UK's GDP than it receives back in Government funding.
82

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 14:16:04
91 Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say

Except the sea and who its resources belong to are an International issue, not an automatic one. you dont own the sea. Who owns that area of the sea and its resources is the person(s) with the most resources and guns. You ready to compete on that basis, I think not?
83

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06/03/2008 14:19:39
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84

Sanny,

06/03/2008 14:19:50
83 Lastsocialist

And you sir are, politically speaking, Blind and have lost control of your remaining brain cell.

Your idea of a Pan Europe was tried in the past by another two gentlemen, one called Napoleon and the other called Adolph. Both failed and this attempt to will fail, however this time let us hope it can be done without the horrendous bloodshed that accompanied the previous attempts.
85

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 14:20:04
#92 - London recieves more in subsidy than the rest of the UK....fact. It has proportionatly more spent on transport and infrastructure than anywhere else in the UK. Fact. And it sucks in the most qualified and entrepreneurial & many of the talented young from the rest of the UK. Fact. It is a perfect storm, which the Tories and Labour are happy to continue, as they sit in their ivory tower of westminster. That is what I mean by London sucking the rest of the UK dry.
86

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 14:21:38
#90 Sanny - Insaney more like. Take to the streets with arms? Calm down you lunatic. Free ourselves from what exactly? Prosperity and shared success as well as good standards of living. Forget this poverty nonsense - there is no such thing in the real sense anyway. Apparently poverty is defined as a household on less than £16k per year. Hmmm.... might have to do without the Sky TV and giant HD Telly.
87

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 14:22:40
GorgieCorby - I don't deny that there are poor parts of London, but if you take the city as a whole and compare the deprivation indicators with Glasgow, you'll see that your average weegie is considerably worse off than your average Londoner.
88

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06/03/2008 14:23:15
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06/03/2008 14:23:34
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06/03/2008 14:27:08
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Sanny,

06/03/2008 14:27:29
94 ldopas

Do try to research your subject before making idiotic comments. Marine areas are governed by International Law. The question of Scotland's rights have already been considered and decided, despite Mr. Blair's stupid attempt to annex a large section in Englands favour.

Given your medieval viewpoint perhaps you can explain why Iceland manages to have sole control over the richest (and best run) fishing area in Europe?
92

Matt there,

somewhere 06/03/2008 14:27:46
D owe hold the wake for the Liberal Party or do we wait until the next elections?
93

GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 14:28:02
Well Done Bird of Prey. Wish it was me!!
94

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06/03/2008 14:28:52
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06/03/2008 14:30:57
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GorgieCorby,

Northants 06/03/2008 14:34:38
Sgurr - Your average weegie is less wel off than your average Londoner. Could this be because people move to London to work and to try and make something of themselves. London is a dynamic constantly changing city that moves with the times and is pro-active in preparing for changes in the Global economy. Your average weegie thinks the work should come to them. My advice to them is to try and stop the nose-bleed and try a stint in London.
97

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06/03/2008 14:36:11
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98

Ananurhing,

06/03/2008 14:41:05
108# GorgieCorby

Thanks for that post, you just clarified for me that you are just a deluded ignorant racist bigot!
99

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06/03/2008 14:41:23
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Sanny,

06/03/2008 14:44:33
98 GorgieCorby:
As an English man are you happy to be ruled by Mr Clarke’s RULLING CLASS?
I thought the English prided themselves on their love of freedom. Is that not what we fought two World Wars for?

Make no mistake I am not anti-English, quite the contrary. It is the arrogance of imbecilic dinosaurs like Clarke that I detest, together with the leftovers from the ‘days of the British Empire’ and the rest of the bull$hit.

I want to see all four countries of this Union free to make their own decisions and to fashion their own version of a true democracy. I firmly believe this would strengthen the bonds between us in a way a Union with an overpowering centre-Westminster- cannot. This is a case where the sum of the parts is greater than the Whole.

101

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 06/03/2008 15:15:21
So who can tell me what else is in this Lisbon Treaty apart from what is reported in brief here, or is that it?

At the end of the day we should have a referendum on whether or not we want to be an active partner or not in this European Union (EU). At the very same time we should also ask the people of the UK whether or not they want to remain part of the smaller union known as the UK. If its a double No or a double Yes then fine we know where we stand. If its Yes to one and No to the other then it shows what a lot of confused individuals we have in this country of ours who don't really understand the serious issues at stake here that have more to do with the global threats both to our economy and our security. In this particular instance re the Lisbon TREATY it is just being used as another political football yet again by those anti-Europeans in our midst.

I certainly prefer to be in rather than out of this particular "club" and also be part of a voice that is more likely to carry some clout, in other words as part of the UK, but I suppose you would already have expected that much from a Liberal. Question is can the nationalists and Tory sceptics explain their thinking on these issues, or is it just a case of "stop the UK and EU buses as we want to get off" and then jump on another bus to goodness knows where it might stop next?

In other words - Get real!
102

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 15:17:22
97 Sgurr

Erm, the south makes 80% of the total economy I think its entitled to invest a bit more than elsewhere, dont you?
103

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 15:21:00
95 Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

See, you give it away in your question back to me. you sat they are "scottish waters" in that throwaway manner.

But actually they are currently UK waters, in which we have all invested a lot.

Your assumption that they will automatically become recognised as "scottish waters" is probably naive. Like it or not (and Im not debating the morality here), others may have a say be it by ballot or bullet.
104

ldopas,

Cheshire 06/03/2008 15:31:56
113 Liberal for life

so what you are basically saying is if we say yes to being in Europe we should accept every change however ludicorus and damaging people thousands of miles away come up with?

No thanks.

I am happy we are in Europe. I also like to have a say in how that is implemented. what is wrong with that?
105

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 15:33:57
The oil would unquestionably be part of Scotland. Any boundary discussion would be settled amicably, I have no doubt. Genuine ambiguity would probably lead to a situation like the Sao Tome/Nigeria JDZ, but I couldn't see it coming to that. Frankly, we'd be rich with half the amount in the N Sea. As for your ballot/bullet..what tosh...please!
106

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 06/03/2008 15:35:51
If Scotland were a sovereign State then the vast majority of oil assets would be under Scottish jurisdiction. This isn't being naive but fact under law. For instance the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea; such a convention is used in defining the maritime assets of newly formed states and resolving international maritime disputes.

There are also other conventions in place. Because Scotland has a separate legal system there is already defined boundaries of Scottish juridiction such as the "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999"
107

ldopas,

06/03/2008 15:37:14
103 Sanny

Grow up and can the stupid insults.

Iceland doesn not belong, like it or not, to anything resembling the UK model. Its a lone country and therefore its rights are secured on that.

Scotland is part of the Uk (like it or not), and waters incluidng those round england and wales are UK waters.

Just because some quango has "determined" things about waters around Scotland, doesnt mean that money and bullets won;t be involved when push comes to shove.

Instead of insulting me, you try and get your head out of your nether regions into the real world.
108

kimba,

06/03/2008 15:37:18
Will nick clegg and the lib-dums ever recover from their dummest performance EVER,they seem to put their political foot in it every time!
109

ldopas,

06/03/2008 15:38:46
117 Sgurr,

We'll see. Lets hope you are right.
110

ldopas,

06/03/2008 15:40:15
118 Cauchy Riemann

Yepp, and Im sure the Argentinians have a law about the Malvinas. Unfortunately......
111

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 15:46:18
115. "by bullet" - whatever do you mean?
112

AlecJ,

Aberdeen 06/03/2008 15:47:58
One of the BIG problems with the EU is the democracy deficit. President for Europe - good idea. But he or she should be elected directly by the citizens or at worst by an electoral college whose members vote in accordence with the popular vote in the regions of Europe. Not appointed by the fat cats who are the existing rulers. By that token, Tony Blair would probably get very few votes, not being elected by his pals. It would be interesting, to say the least.
113

ldopas,

06/03/2008 15:52:56
123 Ayrshire Scot

What you think I mean, is what I mean. bullet = force. dont forget the US investment in there as well. Will they do business with socialist scotland? Dont know, we'll see.
114

Sanny,

06/03/2008 15:53:42
110 Ananurhing

You are of course correct, but this idiot hasn’t the political nouce to understand. I wonder if he is aware that his precious London is the most heavily subsidised part of the country.

115 ldopas

If you do the research, you will find that this is a decided matter and that Scotland has jurisdiction of its marine areas as defined by International Law. You should also try to research the Act of the Union of parliaments 1707; where you will find that the several powers were reserved to Scotland, including Law.

Another interesting point is that unlike England, where Sovereignty rests with the Monarch in Parliament, whereas Sovereignty in Scotland rests with the people. In Scotland the Monarch holds their position by the will of the people and not by hereditary right!!

May I suggest you look into Ian Hamilton QC’s blog. It is and extremely interesting, provocative and educational site, written by a man who is a consummate communicator.
115

The Strategist,

06/03/2008 15:54:12
#113

Liberalisation of markets which is one of main things Brown is in favour of because he believes it will be good for the City in that it will lead to big takeover deals out of which the City will make money.

Of course what will actually happen is that big EU companies will eat up what's left of UK industry and nobody will be allowed to buy theirs.
116

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 15:57:14
125 WHo is going to be using military force?
117

kimba,

06/03/2008 15:58:02
126,and as LONDONS GDP is greater than the whole of scotlands they can afford too.
118

Sanny,

06/03/2008 15:59:49
119 ldopas

Now, Now, don’t go throwing the toys out of the pram there’s a good lad.

Just try to do a little research and THINK before putting pen to paper, then you won’t come across as such an uninformed plonker!

119

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:03:46
Hi meths, everything hunky dory in your part of the world?
120

Sanny,

Upwey 06/03/2008 16:04:05
127 The Strategist:

Quote/ ”Of course what will actually happen is that big EU companies will eat up what's left of UK industry and nobody will be allowed to buy theirs.” \Endquote

Too late my friend – it’s already happened!!
121

Ralph Smith,

Victoria BC Canada 06/03/2008 16:04:14
If you don't like Scottish soldiers being involved in wars contrived by Blair in Westminster how much worse will it be to be led into hopeless struggles by the likes of Monsieur Banana in Brussels in wars we cannot win? Most of the counries in the EU were defeated or invaded during the last war and hanker to get even - never fight for the EU!!
122

Sanny,

06/03/2008 16:07:07
131 Methalions
Thanks Meths! I didn’t have time to look up the dates. That said I think we’re wasting time on “Idopas” He doesn’t seem to have much knowledge of political history.
123

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:11:11
Meths. We have got to the dizzy heights of 48F!
124

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 16:19:42
#6 Subrosa......... Get your facts right before going to print! The name of the country you refer to is The Republic of Ireland and not Eire. The Republic of Ireland came into being in 1949.It is a sad state of affairs when we are now depending on the Irish to carry the day for us here in Scotland. The time has now come for complete independence from England.
125

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:22:41
METHS. Come on,I'm size 16 ask your good lady if that is big!
126

European Scot,

06/03/2008 16:24:38
84 Idopas

Thank you for your comments.
As regards Scottish territorial waters, that is determined under international law, and that would certainly be upheld by the EU.
As things stand at present the oil revenue goes directly, and legally into the UK exchequer.
However an Independent Scotland would legally be entitled to most of the Oil revenue, as over 95% of it lies under Scottish territorial waters.
As for guns and bullets diplomacy, it would never come to that.
Eurofighters won't be involved !
With an Independent Scotland and England sitting at the European table, the EU would uphold International law.
Scotland would rightfully receive its oil revenues.
Interestingly, the bulk of the gas fields would belong to England, and that revenue would go to the English exchequer.
Hopefully Scotland will use the power that comes with that oil to re-negotiate its fishing rights, prior to entry as an Independent country.
It needs to do that in order to reverse the effects of a disastrous fishing policy negotiated by a UK government, and which has more than decimated the Scottish fishing industry.
127

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 16:26:07
My good lady says, "jings, the obesity epidemic is bad out there".
128

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:32:59
SGURR. THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT YOU OR YOUR TR-LLOP.
129

Malc.F,

france 06/03/2008 16:33:37
So Idopas,I am a moron.I am not French but do have the luck to live in this wonderful country where people get off their asses, as you so americanly put it,and have a turnout of 86% for their elections which is about double the normal feckless UK turnout.
On the referendum point,I specifically said that the UK should have a referendum to LEAVE the EEC, not the same thing as France had a referendum for at all.
Yes the USA did eventually help us in the 2 world wars but I cannot for the life of me remember the yanks spending much time saving the lives of asses or mules or donkeys for that matter.
I am a Socialist so do not have a lot of time for New Labour but compared to Thatcher and the damage she did to the entire working class of Scotland and any other Labour voting area of Britain New Labour are angels.
I am Scottish as it happens and have benefitted from a guid Scots education which taught me how to spell,punctuate and formulate a sensible grammatical sentence.
Either you are not Scottish or standards have slipped dramatically,and you called me a moron.Your spelling and punctuation are,well,not very good.
Finally I care about people which is why I am daft enough to participate in discussions like this,but unlike you I respect other peoples opinions whether I agree with them or not.
130

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 16:35:33
29... Fraz..... Have you been drinking that Buckfast again. No country is going to be "booted out" of the E.U. The Irish people are exercising their democratic right under the wording of their 1937 constitution. Whether their decision be yes or no, does not give the E.U. the right to "boot them out" There are many countries in the E.U. who would like to see England being booted out.
131

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:35:55
meths. THANKS,maybe these numb nuts will shut up now.
132

Sgurr,

06/03/2008 16:37:15
Elvis too was a size 16...eventually..
133

 Ayrshire Scot™,

06/03/2008 16:37:58
152. Kimba, you haven't updated us on your legal action against Magic Hoops. Hwo goes it?
134

Malc.F,

France 06/03/2008 16:41:25
My original posting contained the Scottish spelling of the word asses,which I used to illustrate the creeping americanisms.For this my post was disallowed,yet I have seen many times real swearwords with asterisks replacing some of the letters.God give me strength.
135

AJ Fife,

06/03/2008 16:41:32
My old cyberpal -Magic Hoops- used to say "Kimba is a fine figure o' a........barrage balloon"!

Now, I wouldn't normally risk getting involved in petty squabbles with Kimba about her eating disorder, but Magic Hoops actually clocked the the Stockton lass in a photo!

His assertion was, that Kimba was like a walking portaloo, with the only difference being - you wouldn't mind getting inside a portaloo.....
136

Terrier2,

Edinburgh 06/03/2008 16:47:16
Castaway,06/03/2008 00:05:30
What is there to stop the Scottish Government from holding an advisory plebiscite on the issue in Scotland ? All they need do is ask the Green and Conservative MSPs for support and they must surely follow their public policy and help make it happen.


There is absolutely nothing, and it would be very welcome. I believe im right in saying that the Scottish Parliament has already voted in favour of holding a referendum on the treaty. They could even use it as dry run for their own independence referendum.

They won't however since the Europhile SNP are almost as scared of the electorate as bottler brown. They are afraid that Scots may not be as big a fan of the EUs vision of a superstate as they are. The SNP voting last night was for show, since they knew the Lib Fascists would save the day for Brown and Barroso.

144 - 'Hopefully Scotland will use the power that comes with that oil to re-negotiate its fishing rights, prior to entry as an Independent country.'

Sorry I had to laugh at the above statement - there will be common energy policy as a result of the treaty, which Scotland will have no right to opt out of. This has been coming for years - Why do you think Norway hasn't joined the EU? North Sea Oil will be declared a 'community resource' - so Scotland have nothing to negotiate with. Whether Scotland is independent from the rest of the UK or not - it is certainly better off out of the EU altogether.
137

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:50:27
AJ,Well. you seem to be hanging him all buy yourself,as for palmer he will get his.
138

kimba,

06/03/2008 16:53:17
METHS. You are full of useful info!
139

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 16:55:19
# 146 Meth....... I take your point in relation to the coinage.Under the Irish constitution of 1922 the partitioned south of the country became known as Saorstat Eireann ( Irish free State) In 1937 the Irish people ratified a second constitution , the name of the state becoming Eire ( Irish for Ireland)the Irish state at this time was a member of the commonwealth.However in 1949 the state of Eire became the Republic of Ireland. The word Eire is still widely used and the name under the 1937 constitution referred to the whole of the island of Ireland. (see articles 2+3of that constitution) The name in most common usage is the Republic of Ireland as in the name of their international soccer team.
140

Nikostratos,

06/03/2008 17:02:30
#149 Methalions

You know nothing about womens sizes '16' is largish different store have different size '16' belive me i know....OOPS best go wifey looking over
141

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 17:08:19
#165 Meths,,,,,,,,,, I must admit,I know the feeling as I have been an erse myself many a time. In relation to your keyboard, may I suggest that you start calling it "honey" that way the bees might respond and put a "sting "in your typing.However they could tell you to "buzz" off!
142

New Town Resident,

06/03/2008 17:21:19
~157. Absolutely spot on. This is the problem with the SNP and its all down to a combination of Salmond reversing their policy and the new SNP apparachiks after Brussels jobs. Time for a rethink now surely and do the decent thing and go for a vote in Scotland?

Doubt the SNP rank and file are quite so keen on the EU, but here they maybe have quite a lot in common with the Lib Dems? All the polls show Lib Dem voters are more anti EU than other parties (except UKIP) but somehow they just don't join up the dots. Is it simply that SNP and Lib Dem supporters just aren't very bright, or is it something more complicated - broad coalitions too much focused on other issues to work it out?
143

Malc.F,

france 06/03/2008 17:28:48
Erse,never thought of that what a silly bunt.
144

European Scot,

06/03/2008 17:38:09
157 Terrier2

You wouldn't be a Eurosceptic by any chance ?
The oil is under Scottish territorial waters, and nothing is going to change that.
What's with all this common energy policy, that doesn't change the right of ownership, doesn't change international law regarding the waters off the coast of Scotland.
It isn't about to become European oil. There may be a common policy regarding a common view of energy conservation, greater emphasis on cleaner technologies, targets for cleaner emissions and so on.
An independent Scotland having its own oil revenues isn't going to be any different to a UK currently taking those revenues.
North Sea Oil will be declared a "community resource". Says who ?
So international law regarding territorial waters goes out of the window. Really ?
Is Europe a 'Soviet' state with satellite countries and a European coastline ?
If what you are stating were fact then clearly Scotland would follow Norway's example.
However if it is just an opinion on what could happen, or what might be, that is quite different. That is just personal speculation or wishful thinking on your part.
Europe is a group of individual countries each of which will hang on to its individual territorial rights, be they land or coastline.
There may not be borders, but France remains French and so on.
The Euro is one strong currency, and I'd rather have Scotland backed up by a large market with a strong currency, which seems to me far more preferable than trying to go it alone.
145

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 06/03/2008 17:50:36
#169 Meth........ Most excellent! Well done.
146

Evia,

06/03/2008 18:10:28
Instead of arguing amongst yourselves why not go to the e-petitions site at downing street and make your feelings known there? It isn't guaranteed to get you what you want but at least you can try. Here is one for those who want to come out. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Leaving-the-EU/ There are many others you can find by typing in EU or Europe.

Roll on election time and let us get rid of Brown turd.
147

Richard,

west lothian 06/03/2008 18:23:29
Not in the latest news section here, but a must read.........

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/politics/Alexander-won39t-be-prosecuted-.3854032.jp
148

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/03/2008 19:19:51
Cleggs love Jobbies.
149

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/03/2008 19:26:19
The real face of the EU:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=62612529763293088


The real sovereign state in Britain:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5804259521663834255&q=Empire+of+the+city&total=2536&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

The U.K

http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/anonn-is-anall/the-challenge-to-the-uk-state/
150

Sambo,

The deep south 06/03/2008 21:03:48
Today's decision by The Bank of England to keep interest rates unchanged at 5.25 apparently was to keep wraps on inflation. One of the major reasons for inflation is the price of fuel.
Am I missing something here? I understood that the UK was an exporter of oil.
Why then is the price of a liter of petrol now at 1pound 9 pence? Why can't the government reduce the tax which I understand to be around 60 pence per liter.
151

Richard Lionheart,

G Brown Land 06/03/2008 21:21:40
The day democracy died.

The King is Dead.

Long live the Fuhrer!
152

yoric,

Gordons democratic republic of England 06/03/2008 21:54:14
I have to report the death of Democracy, yesterday, it was 500 years old.
Wounded in the Poll Tax protests, injured again in the 2 anti Iraq war protests, finally yesterday after a long illness, faced with the peoples wishes ignored, Democracy died.
Gordon Vladimir Brown has ordered a quiet funeral, the press will not attend.
153

Sambo,

The deep south 06/03/2008 21:58:36
#180 Methalions
Perhaps I do know the reason and it is to generate funds for the socialist programs generated by the labour government since the end of WW2. One of the major expenses is the National Health Service which both of our (US) Democratic candidates now seek to impose on us.
My biggest beef with the current UK government is their inability to provide a decent pension to the elderly who for the last decade have been left behind in the the inflation battle.
The current PM controlled those cost of living adjustments and did relatively nothing.
154

ldopas,

07/03/2008 10:26:48
148 Malc.F,france

This is a posting board, not a damn grammar class. Try to keep up.

I dont have much time, in fact any time, for anyone who has jumped ship from their country to snipe back at it from wherever they have decided to run away to.

Sean Connery would be proud.

Next

155

ldopas,

07/03/2008 10:33:09
136 Sanny

You may want to play to the gallery pretending to have some historical knowledge I lack. Carry on, you look like the smug p**t you probably are.

I though, understand that its a tactic because you dont hold the same views as me, to try an make out your version is the only true and researched version. Its a crass spoiling tactic not really used by people with real intelligence.

Anyway, Im happy to admit I probably dont have as much time as you to "research". Thats because I work hard. You I suspect are either unemployed or lounging in the easy world of academia.

 

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