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Glasgow East by-election: SNP storm to historic election victory by 365 votes

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Published Date: 25 July 2008
GORDON Brown was hit by a political earthquake early this morning when the SNP narrowly snatched a sensational victory in the Glasgow East by-election.
John Mason won by 365 votes over Labour's Margaret Curran after recording a 22 per cent swing to the SNP. The declaration had been held up after Labour demanded a recount at 1:30am, with only 355 votes separating the two main parties.

Mr Mason, who had arrived at the count to a hero's welcome from party activists, told The Scotsman: "This is going to have a huge impact. Somebody said it's No 10 on the Richter scale. It just feels tremendous. It was a huge challenge, a huge majority to overcome.

"It is going to send a message all around the country."

Alex Salmond, the SNP First Minister, was not present at last night's count, in contrast to his high-profile presence on the campaign trial.

The Prime Minister now faces a summer of discontent after the degree of Labour unpopularity was laid bare in what was previously the party's third-safest Scottish seat.

If the result were to be repeated at the next general election, Labour would be ousted from government and more than 150 of the party's 350 MPs would lose their seats.

Mr Brown, already suffering the lowest personal ratings of any prime minister since polling began during the Second World War, now faces the prospect of months of back-bench plotting before the Labour conference in September.

With dozens of MPs fearful of being ousted at the next general election – due by June 2010 – speculation will increase about the need for Mr Brown to stand down. Alternatively, he could face a challenge from a Labour heavyweight.

However, internal Labour Party rules make it difficult to mount a challenge against a sitting prime minister, as any rival would have to secure the signatures of a fifth of the parliamentary Labour Party – at least 70 colleagues.

Today's result, declared shortly before 2am, is the SNP's first gain from Labour since Jim Sillars won Govan in 1988.

Mr Mason, the SNP group leader on Glasgow City Council, polled 11,277 votes – a 43 per cent share – to 10,912 for Ms Curran, the Labour MSP for Baillieston.

Tory, Davena Rankin, came third with 1,639 votes, while Liberal Democrat Ian Robertson polled 915, losing his deposit.

There was a 42 per cent turnout – compared with 48 per cent of electors who voted in the 2005 general election.

The health minister, Nicola Sturgeon, described the swing towards her party as "epic", saying it had been a "tremendously good" night.

Ian Robertson, Liberal Democrat candidate, said: "At the moment I feel quite disheartened. I guess it will be back to the classroom tomorrow. Our vote was always going to be soft here and we've lost out to the squeeze from the SNP."

David Mundell, Conservative shadow secretary of state for Scotland, said "We have to look at this vote in a UK context, not just a Scottish one.

"It's devastating for Gordon Brown and Labour and shows that they are now seriously on the slide."

Mr Salmond will view the result as a ringing endorsement of the SNP's first year in government at Holyrood. Earlier this week, he raised the stakes by describing the by-election as a "tale of two governments" and effectively a referendum on his own popularity and that of Mr Brown.

The campaign had seen Ms Curran portray Mr Mason as a "hardline" Nationalist interested more in independence than improving the lot of one of the UK's most deprived communities.

But Mr Mason and Mr Salmond said an SNP victory was the only way to "send a message" to the Prime Minister about concerns over the rising cost of living.

Labour failed to retain the seat despite former MP David Marshall having won by 13,507 votes in 2005 with 60 per cent of the vote. Then, the SNP took only 5,268 votes and 17 per cent of the poll.

This morning's result was the third seat Labour has lost in the current parliament, following by-election defeats to the Lib Dems in Dunfermline and West Fife in 2006 and the humiliation of losing Crewe and Nantwich to the Tories in May, when a 7,078 Labour majority was converted into a 7,860 winning margin for the Tories in a supposedly safe area.

Mr Brown was further damaged last month when Labour fell to fifth place in the Tory safe seat of Henley, behind the British National Party.

Today's result also marks one of the biggest swings in political support of modern times, sitting alongside the 29 per cent swing to the Liberal Democrats in Brent East in 2003.

However, the result was not the biggest majority Labour has seen overturned in recent times – it lost Leicester South to the Liberal Democrats in 2004 despite defending a 15,715 majority.

But the significance for the future of the party – and the Prime Minister – is far greater with this result.

FULL RESULTS

John Mason (SNP) 11,277 (43.08%, +26.06%)

Margaret Curran (Lab) 10,912 (41.69%, –18.99%)

Davena Rankin (C) 1,639 (6.26%, –0.64%)

Ian Robertson (LD) 915 (3.50%, –8.35%)

Frances Curran (SSP) 555 (2.12%, –1.42%)

Tricia McLeish (Solidarity) 512 (1.96%)

Eileen Duke (Green) 232 (0.89%)

Chris Creighton (Ind) 67 (0.26%)

Hamish Howitt (Choice) 65 (0.25%)

The full article contains 922 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

moral___superiority_,

25/07/2008 01:38:45
604 Ayrshire Scot­­™,25/07/2008 00:34:23
"I hear from a pal at the count that the SNP have won by over 1,100"

Ayrshire Scot the man with imaginary friends that provide invented figures.

What a chump.
2

moral___superiority_,

25/07/2008 01:39:50
The SNP double counting needs to be checked.
3

,

25/07/2008 01:44:10
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4

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

SNP VICTORY HQ 25/07/2008 01:53:18
NEWSFLASH:
RECOUNT UNDERWAY AT THE GLASGOW EAST BY ELECTION. SNP WIN BY LESS THAN 500 VOTES. AN NATION CHANGING WIN AND A VICTORY FOR THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE
5

CRAGman,

25/07/2008 01:58:25
Well done the SNP - but it means nothing re, independence which is far more important to the SNP than social justice, etc.. Labour needs to up its game on that score.
6

Soosider,

Glasgow 25/07/2008 02:00:19
Listening to BBC gone to full recount, first count was SNP win by 435 votes,Labour asked for recount as they want to be sure that Margaret Currans votes have not got mixed up with Frances Currans. Seems to me very unlikely that nearly 500 votes would fall into this category, seems like bad grace
7

Christina, Aberdeen,

25/07/2008 02:04:59
This was not just any Labour candidate who appears to have lost.

This was Margaret Curran. EX Scottish Executive minister and Labour leadership candidate.

If Labour can't hold their third safest seat in Scotland with their most experienced politician what can they hold?
8

Christina, Aberdeen,

25/07/2008 02:06:41
Labour has _lost_ votes because of the recount! :-)
9

Just_Me,

elgin 25/07/2008 02:09:01
It seems the labour party is several years slower than other parties to actually bother finding out about what scottish people want!

No doubt they will keep telling us that we dont really want independance!

I see a labour defeat now only casts doubt on labours leader rather than the almost certainty of resignation a week ago!

Well done SNP
10

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25/07/2008 02:13:06
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11

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 25/07/2008 02:15:46
SUPERB!!!!

Honestly what can the Labour party possibly say now..To lose Glasgow East. My Goodness.

From over here in Vancouver the pain can be seen on Labour parties faces.

Scotland..the next step is independence. We will be home to vote, and will send money if allowed.

All the best, and my hats off to the good people of Glasgow East. Sheep no more it seems.
12

Jardine,

25/07/2008 02:16:52
Some those whose ballot papers were "spoiled' must have been under the impression that Curran (Margaret) was a socialist!
13

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25/07/2008 02:19:39
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14

Pica Sapien,

The burgh 25/07/2008 02:23:36
Woot!!!! and I'm up a tenner.
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 02:24:41
Brilliant just brilliant and delighted that the people of Glasgow have had the sense to do this (at last).
16

Pica Sapien,

The burgh 25/07/2008 02:25:26
What can you say, I didn't think we could do it....but we have done it!!!!

There is no way this organ can spin this well, but I wait to see how they try it.
17

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 02:25:35
Well AM2 any thoughts on tonights glorious result???

Or are you going to have this post deleted????
18

A WIN IS A WIN AND ALL THAT,

25/07/2008 02:26:10
Excellent win for the SNP. Unionists trolls must be very upset at this result.
19

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 02:26:51
That's the end of the Sleaze Party in Scotland now!!!

Oh happy days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/07/2008 02:28:18
Hearty Congratulations to the Hon John F Mason MP.

Cutty Serks always meet there ain fait!!

How petty minded can Magde get, thoroughly disgusting!!!

A monumental day in the history of our Great Nation, Scotland go Forward, we have nothing to fear but fear itself!!!!

Oh and where IS AMduex?
21

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/07/2008 02:30:05
Jeez is Dwougeee Alixandur still going on about Nu Labour/Owld Torie are the party of the people whit P Rat!
22

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 02:30:26
The lowest point for Labour in Scotland in the history of the party lol.
23

unbiased,

Erehwon o Elddim 25/07/2008 02:31:38
We won. we won, we won - hallelujah -- after 40 years of supporting SNP - we won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
24

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 02:31:58
All this from a 'hardline nationalist' too
25

,

25/07/2008 02:32:04
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26

subrosa,

25/07/2008 02:36:43
Auch I'm just fair delighted :) Congratulations John Mason.
27

Jed Zeppelin,

Scotland 25/07/2008 02:37:27
...the shape of things to come! Let us now grab the mantle for change and give the Scottish people the country that we deserve.

It's all about Scotland baby!
28

,

25/07/2008 02:39:35
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29

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 02:40:13
22.54% swing.

:-)
30

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 02:40:13
Congratulations to the SNP on winning, and to the Tories for taking third place from the Liberals.

I also want to congratulate John Mason on using the term "epic win" in his victory speech. Most appreciated.
31

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Cloud 9 25/07/2008 02:40:21
At last, at last! The Scottish people have taken destiny by the scruff of the neck and hurried it along!
For we will rise and be a Nation Again.
Onwards to prosperity for all!
Goodbye AM2 and all unionist doubters. The Scottish People have spoken again! The end of liebour is on us. Cheerio Gordon, Cheerio Lying Cheating Scum.
32

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 02:42:32
34 bring them on

Must disagree.

Comrade Broon must stay.
33

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 02:47:17
Heartfelt thanks to David Marshall...is he in Spain yet in his 'hacienda lotto'?
34

Gordon, Canonmills,

The Union is dead!!! 25/07/2008 02:47:29
TAXI (to BOURNEMOUTH?) FOR AM2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
35

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 02:50:49
43
He is far to "unwell" to go to Spain surely?
36

back from huttcity,

25/07/2008 02:52:06
no am2 posting an hour before anyone else tonight?
37

Statsman,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 02:52:09
Epic fail Labour!
38

Dave B,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 02:53:49
Great result for Glasgow.
The swing would have been even more if Labour hadn't put up a credible candidate who was pretty well liked personally in the area.
Things are changing across Scotland.
39

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25/07/2008 02:53:51
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40

,

25/07/2008 02:54:39
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,

25/07/2008 02:55:34
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42

back from huttcity,

25/07/2008 02:55:43
At least "Proud to be Scottish" showed up on the herald boards. I am sure AM2 will have been at a "party" or something when shows up.
43

,

25/07/2008 02:56:04
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44

,

25/07/2008 02:56:19
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,

25/07/2008 02:56:38
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46

,

25/07/2008 02:57:09
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47

,

25/07/2008 03:02:23
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48

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 03:02:55
When can we expect an interview with Comrade Broon or will he hide(just like AM2) and pretend that nothing has changed??????????????
49

An Independent Scottish Voice.,

25/07/2008 03:03:00
;o)
50

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 03:07:12
As john curtice pointed out, if this swing occurred across Scotland, Labour would have one, ONE MP left. Let's chase that last one out!!
51

TommyKaye,

UK 25/07/2008 03:07:52
Newsflash Body puled out of River Clyde thought to be that of poster called AM2 - still alive he whispered

"Ahm fair scunnered, I had thi sfunny dream" he then thanked the man who saved him - who said to him "its alright pal and by the way do you know the SNP have just won Glasgow East" -

upon hearing the news the said AM2 apparently jumped 50 feet back in to the deep dark river..........
52

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 03:10:34
62 TommyKaye

If only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:0)
53

LTM,

25/07/2008 03:10:54
So proud of the voters of Glasgow East. I keep reading in other papers stating that this was a vote against Labour, not Scottish Independence, but that's a desperate argument. The Telegraph had a poll that labour was up 40 points a few weeks ago in Glasgow East. That was the same poll that stated the majority is happy to stay under London's wing. I think the more we give Salmond to work with, the more he'll be able do for Scotland till eventually the nation will see convincing progress and that we deserve a bigger voice on the world stage. This is a very encouraging sign and long may it continue.
54

glassbenmhor,

25/07/2008 03:14:54
FABLOUS,WONDERFUL,

But as well for me personally,

RICH RED REAKING VENGENCE,

Its a start but many more of the Ca-bull to fall oh its a coming,

and why,

THE BLACK WATCH

and all the other great families that are Scotland's History.

Yes a good start, but lets not loose the head, sharpen the tongues and ready ourselves for the

ROUT AHEAD
55

rureddy,

Montreal ,Canada 25/07/2008 03:15:51
The result is rather sad. Labour were entrenched and stupid and had to go, but, the Nationalists have few ideas. My family lived in that area for over 150 years and we have relatives still there. That area is too far gone for mild improvements, it needs a really massive overhaul. Scotland is in for another wave of emigration.
56

Canadian Jambo,

25/07/2008 03:16:03
Enjoy it boys-(there appear to be no women commentators)-it won't last long. I spoke with Alex tonight (we're both Hearts' supporters). He assured me(against my views) that the royal family and hangers-on were safe and that Scotland would continue to be ruled by foreigners, both American and English. Oh yes, we would have Muslim schools and 'faith-based' education and the RC heirachy would continue to exert influence on social policy. Don't ya love it!! (What century are we in?)
Cheers.
57

missing home,

la verne 25/07/2008 03:17:00
I'm having such a hard time trying not to gloat..I don't like this side of me, but I love the result, WOO HOO!!
58

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 03:21:29
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Congratulations to John Mason for this stunning victory.

Many Thanks to all in the SNP and especially
the Cybernats who helped to swell the ranks of the activists on the ground and
provided heart felt passionate to make this happen.
The power of the new media (e.g. blogging & youtube)
is now proven to be a force to be reckoned with and the old media no longer has a free rein.

Most of all many many thanks to the good
people of Glasgow East for having the courage
to stand up and break from the
Labour mold in which they have been held
prisoner for way too long.

As I savour a nice Caol Isla to celebrate little can be
sweeter than this triumph apart of course from the
eventual freedom of our Scottish nation which is
now closer than ever.

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic
59

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 03:21:31
Bold Comments.
60

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen. 25/07/2008 03:27:33
It's comforting to learn that Scots have supported their own government. Congratualtions SNP!

How exactly is Broon going to word his resignation? By all accounts he's done for.
61

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 25/07/2008 03:35:12
As a fan of democracy, Congrats to SNP for pulling a win equally phenomenal to George W Bush defeating Bill Clinton's VP, Al Gore, here in 2000.

As a fan of change, I hope the following happens:

Replacement of the boring, uncharismatic and incompetent Gordon Brown with a Prime Minister on the level of Baroness Thatcher or 1997 Tony Blair that can energize the British Public into believing in their country (or countries), and can take decisive action to help resolve the current British and global economic crisis

Conversion into a full Federation, a la Canada, Australia, and my own US of A, to permit the Home Nations to determine their own domestic destinies, by creation of a codified Constitution that restricts, in law, what Westminster can legislate on and the mechanisms used (like our Commerce Clause - restricting the US Government from legislating over the 50 states in most areas unless it involves commerce) instead of by law until Westminster decides otherwise. Included in this would be abandonment of the idea of Westminster Parliamentary Supremacy.

If reform of the Lords is to occur, I would hope that reform ensures that each home nation has equal representation, either by peers or election of individuals. It occurs to me that the majority of grievances held by Nationalists UK-wide all stem from one main issue - Westminster legislating in every part of your lives. Federalism resolves those ills.

Should your independence vote fail when called, I recommend you steer the conversation in this direction. Although, as a fan of the UK and its influence in history, I would hate to see the break up of one of the most influential nations in history.
62

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 25/07/2008 03:38:02
Congratulations to John Mason and all the people who volunteered to get out the vote. You have done a fantastic job.

This result has shown a siesmic shift in west of Scotland politics. This test has well and truly seperated the Men from the Monkeys in Red Rosettes. Many west of Scotland Labour MP's and MSP's will not be having a comfortable sleep tonight.

Their years of complacency and neglect will soon be coming to an end.

63

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 03:38:34
What! No AM2? Quel surprise!
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 03:39:49
Not a single Unionist here tonight?

AM2, kimba, sme, Scotbrit.......
65

,

25/07/2008 03:41:31
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66

Willie Macleod,

Wick 25/07/2008 03:43:46
#72 Conan Morning Conan Congratulations to John Mason and the SNP on a great win.

There will be a lot to discuss in the wake of this result.

Dont stay up all night celebrating.

Catch up with you somewhere on the threads in the next day or so.
67

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/07/2008 03:44:05
Just filling up my glass with another dose of Grahams Black Bottle, and toasting the victory of the Hon. John F Mason MP.

Still can't believe taht Madge was such a sore loser....not :-))

68

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 03:45:39

The official result declaration

see tinyurl.com/5prkgd

John Mason's Victory speech

see - tinyurl.com/67e2xd

69

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 03:50:59
Has anyone sighted our ermine clad buffoon, Lard Foolkes or is he lying in a gutter after drowning his sorrows????
70

,

25/07/2008 03:57:38
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71

Deeside,

25/07/2008 03:57:43
The real reason Labour's original candidate's choice didn't show at the selection meeting.... http://www.fan-hitter.co.uk/news/story.php?newsID=32

There's an inherint and very bad taste to Labour's arrogance in Glasgow politics - at last the people have said enough is enough - they did it without the support of the media - the extra hard work of Labour's cronies in George Square (and questionable use of public servants for political means) to block the media reporting on corruption at the heart of Labour in Glasgow still couldn't stop people leaving Labour and voting decisively with their feet in Glasgow East!
72

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:02:47
oops forgot Ms Curran's speech - she is really scary

see - tinyurl.com/68fuvg
73

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

25/07/2008 04:04:00
Castaway ... that may be baaaaaad news for Gordon Brown. He may not have those 651 days :wink:
74

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen UK 25/07/2008 04:04:25
So what's up with Curran's SLAB Leadership bid now that Bendywendy is happily pissed out of her mind celebrating Curran's demise too?
75

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

25/07/2008 04:04:55
Traquir ... she WAS really scary

:roflmAo:
76

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:05:16
"In tonight's vote, there was a 22.54 percent swing toward the SNP, according to BBC News 24 television. A shift of this size replicated across Scotland would reduce the number of Labour lawmakers in Scotland to one"

see - tinyurl.com/5ly6bu

Obviously this would be very hard to achieve with
the current first past the post system, but
nevertheless great to even imagine the possibility :)

Saor Alba
77

Deeside,

25/07/2008 04:06:21
Scary?? Just bitter, twisted and pathetic :)
78

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:07:43
89 Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

"Traquir ... she WAS really scary"

True,but I was kind of hoping though that Labour
would be stupid enough to still elect
her their leader in Scotland - perhaps
as a consolation prize for all her
hard working trying to defend the Union :)
79

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 25/07/2008 04:12:11
From Bloomberg

"In tonight's vote, there was a 22.54 percent swing toward the SNP, according to BBC News 24 television. A shift of this size replicated across Scotland would reduce the number of Labour lawmakers in Scotland to one from the present 72, according to John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University in Glasgow."

Which one would that be?
80

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

25/07/2008 04:12:58
92 Traquir

"True,but I was kind of hoping though that Labour
would be stupid enough to still elect
her their leader in Scotland - perhaps
as a consolation prize for all her
hard working trying to defend the Union :)"


Naaaa ... they couldnae be that stupid.

Hmmm ... on second thoughts ... they COULD be that stupid! :roflmAo:

Poor old Gordon. Do you notice that over time he has managed to learn not to drop his jaw so much when he is speaking?
81

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:15:39


The headlines are just so sweet -

"Brown's humiliation in Glasgow East: SNP demolishes Labour's 13,507 majority"

see - tinyurl.com/6ey7yd

"Catastrophe for Labour as SNP triumphs in Glasgow East"

see - tinyurl.com/5ha37x

"Glasgow East byelection victory adds remarkable new chapter to SNP history"

see - tinyurl.com/57brqu

"Glasgow East by-election: Labour suffers humiliating defeat as SNP celebrates"

see - tinyurl.com/6muupp

"Brown's humiliation in Glasgow East: SNP demolishes Labour's 13,507 majority

see - tinyurl.com/5wbxdd
82

NemarketNDPer,

Taipei, Taiwan 25/07/2008 04:17:12
A well deserved kick in the butt for Labour and M. Cullan, outspoken supporter of the imperialist war for oil in Iraq.
Remember G. Brown, it was Labour who first deserted the people and now they will vote for the SNP, the Pope, the devil, or anyone else in order to trash the once glorious Party.
OUT OF IRAQ NOW!
83

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 25/07/2008 04:24:27
What a wonderful day for Glasgow East and SCOTLAND. There is nothing the SCOTTISH people cannot do when they put thier minds to it.Great result!!!!
84

An Beal Bacht,

25/07/2008 04:33:22
Dream of the possibilities. Good night all.
85

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:37:17
I wonder why AM2 was not regaling us with stories
of his personal Unionist canvassing especially given
he lives in Glasgow. Surely he was out
in force selling the glories of the Union as per
the Unionist guide on how to "Preserve The Union",

see - tinyurl.com/5ncw8z

Surely he did not just sit at home in his room
on his computer instead of traveling a few
miles down the road to espouse the glories
of the Union that he tells us he so passionately
believes in. Seems somewhat of a dim contrast
with many of the Cybernats who put their money
where their mouths are and actively and with
fire in their bellies campaigned fully for
their believes on the streets of Glasgow East.

He really could have made a difference - we had
been hoping for a 4 figure majority and he
could have made the difference :)

Saor Alba

86

Traquir , Alba,

25/07/2008 04:37:38
100 :)
87

Richardinho,

25/07/2008 04:37:48

They said devolution would kill the SNP 'stone dead'-it didn't.

They said the SNP could never form a government in Holyrood-they did.

They said that the SNP couldn't take the Glasgow-East seat-they just have.

The SNP are developing an uncomfortable (if you're a unionist) habit of doing 'the impossible'!

Well done John!
88

Electric Hermit,

25/07/2008 04:54:00
Congratulations to John Mason. Congratulations to Alex Salmond. But most of all, congratulations to the people of Glasgow East. You've done us proud!
89

American Expat,

25/07/2008 04:55:06
I'm new to the UK and Scotland, so I must ask the people here... what does this mean vis a vis independence? I'm hearing that it means nothing from some folks, from others that it's a major step towards it. I'm also hearing from some friends that only about 1/3 of Scots favour independence, yet others tell me it's more than half.

Anyone here provide some help ton an ignorant American student?
90

Christopher Crossley,

Wuhan City 25/07/2008 04:56:55
I echo Electric Hermit's (#101) sentiments. Many congratulations to John Mason for his astounding victory on behalf not only of the SNP, but also of the people of Scotland.
91

Christopher Crossley,

Wuhan City 25/07/2008 04:57:53
Sorry, I meant #102! :)
92

Snuffy Ivy,

Aerdeen 25/07/2008 05:06:18
#103 You make a fair point.
For starters Americans need to make some pretty important decisions of their own about how to run a democracy "by the the people for the people"...... once that's decided then you'll understand the notion of why nationalism is on the rise in Scotland.

In each case (USA & Scotland) the "PEOPLE" are fed up with lack of representation by their duly elected "officials" who rule from afar, and who have absolutely no concept of reality. The Scots have had enough, and are in rebellion with London. Sound familiar?

If you're a student, how about enrolling an a government class or two, then you'll get an eye opener.
93

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 05:11:01
Roll on Independance.Superb
94

An Beal Bacht,

25/07/2008 05:18:37
103American Expat, 25/07/2008 04:55:06 writes:

"I'm new to the UK and Scotland, so I must ask the people here... what does this mean vis a vis independence? I'm hearing that it means nothing from some folks, from others that it's a major step towards it. I'm also hearing from some friends that only about 1/3 of Scots favour independence, yet others tell me it's more than half.

Anyone here provide some help ton an ignorant American student?"

It's possible that this result will force Brown to resign. Labour will then choose another leader but it's unlikely that said leader would have any credibility as PM. This would necessitate a general election with the Tories as favourites. If the Tories win in England but are locked out in Scotland it would lead to a referendum on independence - given the recent history of the Thatcher years and the Scots unwillingness to revisit that scenerio - and especially if the SNP get a sizable contingent elected to Westmin.

It's all on the line - the whole shebang.
95

An Beal Bacht,

25/07/2008 05:27:17
109Castaway, 25/07/2008 05:22:08

GE = 22.54 swing to the SNP. There are polls and then there are elections.
96

An Beal Bacht,

25/07/2008 05:28:11
Night all - I will sleep soundly tonight.
97

Vaward,

Perth 25/07/2008 05:30:28
@ 106

Snuffy, if people are so fed up, then how come only 40% turned out to vote?
98

mike3,

25/07/2008 05:31:08
Winners can smile, losers can please the'selves.
99

gerad,

greenock 25/07/2008 05:32:12
All those who are giving AM2 a hard time. Remember that this is a civilised country and as such, even AM2 the poor wee soul deserves a time to grieve. After all he really did believe that Liebour would win. Poor sod.
100

missing home,

la verne 25/07/2008 05:56:09
112, because they're fed up?
Great result for snp don't know about the candidate though...
101

bobwmac,

New Mexico/Stirlingshire 25/07/2008 06:07:01
Margaret Curran may not have won an extra wage, but she didn't lose anything either. Her snout is still firmly in the trough.
102

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 25/07/2008 06:13:17
Congratulations to the 1000+ SNP workers and the many thousands of Glasgow voters who have ' Sent Proud Edward home... to think again' and to proclaim to the world... Scotland's future, as a brighter and more prosperous independent nation once again.

Upwards and onwards to victory!






103

inoui,

Bordeaux 25/07/2008 06:22:40
#1. More to do with Westminister than G Brown. Clearly Scottish people are rising from the shadow of an all cosuming, domineering, self interested neighbour. I'm sure for the better.
104

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 25/07/2008 06:25:22
# 103 yes, you are here to learn.
Scotland 1 Westminster 0
105

yockel,

25/07/2008 06:36:50
LOL
106

Larry Johnstone,

GOVAN 25/07/2008 06:42:52
SNP ALL THE WAY.

TIME FOR LABOUR TO LEAVE SCOTLAND ALONE, ACTUALLY THAT'S WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS LEAVING US ALONE, AND DOING NOTHING FOR US.

SNP WAY TO GO.
107

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 06:43:24
Bye bye Labour. You'll not be missed.

Congratulations to the SNP, clearly a fantastic result, but I suspect we all know its mainly a vote against Labour. When even their safe seats go, it must be clear that they have failed, are not delivering for anybody, and are doomed.

They can't go soon enough for me.
108

Finnz,

North Sea 25/07/2008 06:45:20
At last the people of Glasgow have decided to throw off the yoke of Unionist oppression and have chosen the path to real freedom.
Browns masterplan of a perpetual Labour government supported by the downtrodden masses wholey dependant on Labour largesse via the welfare state has been given short shrift.
This victory is one by the Scottish people for the Scottish people and is likely to be repeated time and again whenever and wherever the question is repeated.
109

Guga II,

Rockall 25/07/2008 06:46:25
A great day for Scotland and, hopefully, the first of many.

I notice that there is a severe shortage of Unionist trolls this morning. Their lies and distortions have caught up with them.
110

The Tin Man,

25/07/2008 06:47:42
Well done SNP!
111

John S,

25/07/2008 06:51:37
The opinion polls got it wrong, the bookies got it wrong, the Labour Party got it wrong and the Glasgow East voters got it right.

112

Pocket Dictionary,

25/07/2008 06:52:51
The real lesson here is political parties in their fourth consecutive term of office have nothing more to offer. The Tories found that out too.
113

steve 1511,

aberdeen 25/07/2008 06:52:57
a vote against prices? a vote aginst brown,NO a vote against a party of sleaze and corruption, dishonest at every level,as the trough feeders get fatter the poor get poorer
114

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 25/07/2008 06:56:14
Great news but how do you get more Scots to vote?
Here in independent NZ (yes like every nation we have domestic problems, usually exaggerated by the opposition - but we have a sovereign Government) under 80% is considered a low vote.
UK politicians really need to gain some respect from some of the 50%+ who don’t vote.
For all you UTube posters 10,000 thanks as we can not get political programmes such as Newsnight Scotland here. BBC IPLayer not allowed by BBC outside UK) but we can get the UK/English version of Newsnight.
Saw GE candidates debate e on UTube courtesy of ‘Baronsarwarofgovan’ - greatly appreciated Baron and really shame on the BBC - censorship by omission.
If you still read these forums: Hi! Bill, Eve, Wiz, Shooey, and Unionist Geoff.
115

Macuistean,

On holiday in France 25/07/2008 06:57:23
Heard the news on the car radio at 04.00 this morning but couldn't use the computer till now. Just wondering how many of M. Curran's votes were postal votes by people who hadn't heard the whole story?
116

Pink Sombrero,

25/07/2008 06:58:20
Can you hear the Amtwa sing?

Can you hear the Kimba sing?

Can you hear the Ciderman sing?
117

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 07:06:17
Just watched that pair of idiots on the BBC breakfast programme and after reporting the historic trouncing of the Sleaze Party, they looked as if they were about to burst into tears!!!

I would have thought they had a lot of money on the Sleaze Party!!!!!

No comments this morning Hamish??????
118

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 07:09:17
The MacChattering Classes have spoken???

Did you hear us Cairns?????

Your getting the same, soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!
119

Earman,

Dumfries 25/07/2008 07:12:43
Congratulations to Mr Mason and his team on their stunning win!

What SHOULD happen now is that the Labour Party in Scotland should realise that negative campaigning is costing them dear, and adopt a more positive approach. They should also realise that, in order to remain in existence as a Party with any influence at all, they must PROPERLY join the debate over the future of this Nation.

I sadly suspect, however, that they will be found to be both unwilling and incapable of doing either.
120

1745,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:15:33
Congratulations and celebrations to the SNP, John Mason
and the people of Glasgow East. !!
Glasgow has shown Labour the door maybe at the next election we will close it for good.Independence is on its way.
Nicola ...loved your shoes!!
121

1745,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:15:33
Congratulations and celebrations to the SNP, John Mason
and the people of Glasgow East. !!
Glasgow has shown Labour the door maybe at the next election we will close it for good.Independence is on its way.
Nicola ...loved your shoes!!
122

Colkitto,

25/07/2008 07:16:03
The days of newspapers swaying the electorate with anti-SNP rhetoric are over. The Herald, Scotsman and especially the Daily Record have failed to turn off pro-SNP voters.
The Record even tried to use my comments from the Herald website in their paper.
Labour like the union are doomed !
123

Jimmy the Pie,

25/07/2008 07:18:33
Superb win John Mason.

Despite concerted attacks on you by the Screaming Harridan, The Sleaze Party, their poodles at the BBC and the Hootsmon, you whipped them all, while maintaining your dignity.

Congratulations again!!!!!
124

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:26:17
Congratulations to the SNP. We're now well and truly on our way to Independence. The fears and the smears have finally been put to rest. And now it's time for the Scottish media to wholeheartedly commit themselves to fair and decent reporting of the Scottish Government in its endevours to rid our nation of its social ills - and to rid Central Scotland of a languid, lazy Labour hierarchy who have allowed injustice to fester on its watch.
125

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:27:32
No doubt AM2 is waiting for the official Labour party spin, in the meantime he will be compiling volumes of statistics to prove that this was a vote of confidence in Labour and unionism
126

Tynietiger,

25/07/2008 07:28:37
Labour played the braking up the UK card in every leaflet and attacked John Mason on a personal basis but score ended up Scotland 1 UK 0.
127

Russell M,

Stirling 25/07/2008 07:29:35
Now complete the coup by bringing jobs back to the East end of Glasgow and Scotland at large. This time let's, as much as possible, keep the ownership and management local. Imaginative and progressive but local so we can avoid the massive shut-downs and golden parachutes of the past.

The Scots can work as well as any other people, but like other indigenous peoples we don't handle the destruction of our culture very well. So let the imperialist speculators and exploiters go home.

"...we can still rise now,
And be the nation again,
That stood..."
128

Tynietiger,

25/07/2008 07:29:37
Plus daily outpouring of anti SNP propaganda from Daily Record
129

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 25/07/2008 07:33:29
And another one bites the dust!

Personally I think the result may be flawed....... and the only way to test this is to have a full series of by-elections, starting with Fife.

Anybody out there (apart from most of Fife) want to help me organise a leaving present for Gordon Brown?


Yours etc


Angus Whitton
130

Indy Evolution,

25/07/2008 07:34:42
Says a lot for the people in Glasgow East that they can see past the propoganda of the biased entirely pro-union Scottish Media.

Beating tired old Labour was the easy bit for the SNP... getting out their positive message despite the media was the hard bit.
131

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 25/07/2008 07:34:52
Can you hear that? Listen carefully. Aah, the sound of unionist silence!!!
132

ruthie,

alba 25/07/2008 07:36:24
The people of Glasgow East have sent a clear message DESPITE the best attempts of LIEbour to smear the SNP and the scottish media to brainwash the people of Scotland with their proLIEbour garbage!
THANK you people of Glasgow East for showing LIEbour that we won't be treated like 2nd class citizens any more.
Delighted - and highly amused at the silence of the unionist trolls!
GOODBYE LIEBOUR - CORRUPT TO THE CORE.
133

yolanda,

25/07/2008 07:38:50




Fantastic result! Congratulations to John Mason. Now, while he gets to work on behalf of his constituents, we can expect the usual drivel from those who said this result was impossible. It will probably go along the lines of "the majority is too small to call this a landslide" or "this is just the voters sending a message to Labour, but nobody really wants independence"...or something similar.

There is no getting away from it. This is an UNBELIEVABLE result!!!

134

an interested party,

25/07/2008 07:40:29
No that is proper funny
135

kimba,

25/07/2008 07:50:02
Hope the people of Glasgow East don't live to regret their decision,the snp gave you a lot of spin and you fell for it!
136

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:53:28
#152 "Hope the people of Glasgow East don't live to regret their decision"

After decades of being in a labour stronghold don't they have the lowest life expectancy in the western world anyway?
137

Melly,

Cuckfield 25/07/2008 07:54:49
Oh dear, the Scotsman website opens up Saturday`s ( blank ) edition - are they trying to tell us that Friday didn`t really happen ?
138

Guga II,

Rockall 25/07/2008 07:55:46
I notice that the Hootsmon Online site has no stories at all, though the Hootsmon.com site is working, but half their International stories are left-overs from the 24th. Maybe their editor, their subbies and half their staff are in mourning.

The question is, will the Hootsmon now stop acting as a mouth-piece for the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party? Probably about the same time as the pigs form an airline.
139

Arrow,

edinburgh 25/07/2008 07:57:43
now let us see if they can have a parliamentary investigation in Westminster into the Marshall affair to see if we the taxpoayer can get our money back for his £.5 million scam. that would be the icing on the cake.
140

Guga II,

Rockall 25/07/2008 08:00:07
Oh, look, a Unionist troll (#152) has surfaced, to try and tell us that we "fell" for the SNP spin.

No mate, it just means that a lot of people woke up to the blatant lies and corruption of Labour; the party led by a liar, charlatan and war criminal.
141

Scudder,

Glasgow 25/07/2008 08:00:45
I would Proclaim ,.,.,.
Glasgow East NO MORE,
The Union NO MORE .,,.,.
We Arra Peepell
Now let's get the job finished .,,.
FREEDOM ,,, INDEPENDENCE ,,,,
142

BIG EYE,

Paisley 25/07/2008 08:01:28
Firstly a massive well done to john Mason and his team and the people of the East End of Glasgow. You have shown Scotland the way.

Secondly as Scots get up this morning alreday smiling over their conflakes consider this. Throughout the election the bookmakers had Labour as odds on favourities. Now either punters are more pro Labour than the rest of the population or, as is more likely, some more wealthy members of the Labour Party (MPS,MSP's Shopping Centre owners etc) thought it would help if they placed substantial bets on Labour to manipulate the odds and let the press continually report Labour as odds on favourities.

It cheers me up to think that on top of witnessing Labour's incredible fall from grace they have now also lost thousands of pounds in the process!

It also means that thanks to them SNP punters enjoyed better odds than would have been justified in the circumstances.

As someone who has benefited in this way I would like to say thanks and I will be sending John Mason a cheque in the next couple of weeks for him to donate to a charity of his choice in the East End.

Once again Well Done John it nice to see the good guy win!
143

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 08:02:31
This is possibly the worst result for Labour - if the Nats had won by a larger margin then I think it is safe to say that Brown would be on his way. It now looks as though he will limp on - until the next disaster arises.

In many ways Brown has only himself to blame. He is correct that many of the economic factors that voters are facing are almost entirely outwith his control. However, what he seems to fail to understand is that the electorate want someone to actually lead the country, to make things easier, to lighten the load in these worrying times. Instead he has bumbled from one crisis to the next, reacting not acting, and, quite bluntly, not dealing with the real issues that concern us. Voters are not going to be won over by tougher action on terrosrists or debates on embryology - however worthy that may be. They are only going to be won if he leads from the front and deals with the real bread and butter issues not the periphery.

That all being said, the truth is that even with good leadership the electorate would still be punishing whoever was the government right now. If the Tories had been elected at the last election they would have faced exactly the same problems as Labour. And, despite their protestations, their economic policy would not have been fundamentally different from Labour's - we would be talking about by-election losses to the Lib Dems if they had been elected.

As for the nationalists - again it shows that they are far better than Labour when it comes to getting their activists organised. Whilst the likes of Nicola Sturgeon may in public be stating that this is the breakthrough, privately they will know that one swallow does not make a summer. Discontent with Labour does not necessarily equate to a vote for independence. Many voters will have absolutely no problem voting for a left of centre nationalist government - because they believe they have the better policies - but would not vote for independence. What is ironic i
144

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 08:03:26
Sorry - post got truncated.

(#160 continued)

As for the nationalists - again it shows that they are far better than Labour when it comes to getting their activists organised. Whilst the likes of Nicola Sturgeon may in public be stating that this is the breakthrough, privately they will know that one swallow does not make a summer. Discontent with Labour does not necessarily equate to a vote for independence. Many voters will have absolutely no problem voting for a left of centre nationalist government - because they believe they have the better policies - but would not vote for independence. What is ironic is that for a long time independence was more popular than the SNP's own ratings - now that situation is reversed - that Nats are more popular than their own raison d'etre. Perhaps that is the nub of their own problem - the more they govern effectively at Holyrood, the more they make the case that devolution is working.

The question for the SNP is how do you turn votes for the SNP in to votes for independence?
145

yolanda,

25/07/2008 08:05:41


The people of Glasgow woke up to the fact that Labour simply cannot deliver. To lose the vote in an area which traditionally is a Labour stronghold is a complete and total humiliation for Labour. They deserved to lose, for many reasons. It's not just about Gordon Brown, as some suggest. It's about the corruption and ineptitude within the party. Their time is up.

I'm sure John Mason will represent them well.

The voters are sick and tired of being lied to and stolen from, and, thank goodness, they made their voice heard.

I thought Nicola Sturgeon was very impressive last night, as the result was being counted. She was calm, coherent and in control. What a contrast to loud, brash, gallus Margaret Curran.

146

Dbxsteve,

In a happy place! 25/07/2008 08:12:55
This marks the beginning of the end for Labour in....

....and a whole new beginning for the people of Scotland with oil prices where they are and only going to rise further there has never been a better time for Scotland to take control of her own destiny....

The recent Finacial Times report showed that at $100 a barrel Scotland would be better off as an independent nation.....at $140 and rising it is time to sieze the day!!!
147

McMillar,

Fife 25/07/2008 08:14:47
I’m sure Douglas Alexander will view this as positive for Gordon Brown. Did you see him last night? What does he actually do? Apart from act as a disciple of Gordon. The people have spoken and voted for change. Hopefully the right decision as there will be a lot to do in Glasgow East over the next few years. Very glad that don’t have to suffer the irritating Curran on tv/radio any longer.
148

A Crofter,

Western Isles 25/07/2008 08:17:01
It seems one bunch of Trumplickers has marginally beaten another bunch of Trumplickers in a by-election where most of the electorate were on holiday.

It looks like another victory for the 58% majority who didn't vote for any of these bottom-feeders.
149

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 08:17:20
The biggest revelation to me is how far Nicola Sturgeon has grown as a politician over the last year. Last night/this morning she was the dominant figure on the "panel. Calmly and with great aplomb, she utterly dismantled Douglas Alexander in every possible way.

At the age of 38, she is very, very impressive is a natural successor to Alex Salmond.
150

Melly,

Cuckfield 25/07/2008 08:18:05
Oh what a beautiful morning
Oh wh a beautiful day
I got a wonderful feeling
Everything`s goin my way ,,,,,,,,,,,,
151

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 25/07/2008 08:22:59
At 365 votes - a vote a day keeps New Labour away!

Excellent result and congratulations to John Mason. What a contrast to the ranting, vindictive and incomprehensible nonsense from Ms Curran. At least the other candidates seemed to be coherent and you could understand their point of view. Labour are out of power and it shows.
152

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 08:24:46
Imagine how big a win this would have been without the biased intervention of the Scottish media.

This result surely must send them a message too? If they choose to ignore it, they will die on their feet.

PS Isabel Fraser sounded gutted a few minutes ago while interviewing Nicola Sturgeon.
153

hibbyspurs,

25/07/2008 08:24:53
Congratulations to John Mason & the SNP in a Scottish Labour heartland yesterday. A truly stunning result.

I make no bones about the fact that I'm a unionist and there fundamentaly I disagree with Independance.

However I have been quite impressed with the SNP since it formed the Holyrood administration and have always felt that for a Scottish Parliment to be effective a strong opposing voice to the governing party in Westminster was required as opposed to the cow towing Scottish Labour party just doing as No10. told them.

The result is a damming inditment on the Labour Party as a whole and shows how deeply unpopular LAbour has become across the entire UK. The loss of Crewe and now the loss of Glasgow East demonstrates that LAbour are facing anhilathion in 2010 from the Conservatives in England and the SNP in Scotland, Scotland will have a strong voice in Westminster after 2010 and I cant see any way in which the SNP will lose control of Holyrood either in the present climate.

The Conservatives are now looking at a landslide victory in 2010 of that there is no doubt.

Whilst fundamentaly different in their ethos towards unionism or independance, both parties have shown a willingness to work together where possible to ensure a stronger, better Scotland.

When the Conservatives are returned to government and the SNP at Holyrood I hope that through strong negotiating and a wilingness to do whats best for Scotland & the UK these two parties can ensure strong growth and stability for Scotland within the framework of a United Kingdom.

Congratulations again, LABOUR ISNT WORKING!!!
154

McMillar,

Fife 25/07/2008 08:26:34
#167 - Strange but true. Must agree she came across very well and jumped from debate to debate without hesitation. Good arguments and well presented. Hair still a bit weird but has certainly matured a lot. Was the most credible person there.
155

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 08:26:40
I hear that Margaret Curran "threw" this election under the threat of having to leave her £1m south side pile and move back to the east end!
156

Senga Jean,

25/07/2008 08:27:39
#166 Well a supposed crofter bad mouthing a stupendous result is just a little reminder that Scotland has unworthy naysayers in its midst. You do not have to like Donald Trump to assess fairly whether his development will benefit the people of Scotland or a few midges. A wonderful day indeed.
157

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 08:30:22
#166 crofter.

You clearly don't understand the finer points of politics. This was no marginal victory for the SNP. This was a massive swing of 22.54% to the SNP.
158

rabrats,

edinburgh 25/07/2008 08:30:23
Come on everybody!
Clap your hands!
All you looking good!

I'm goona sing my song
It won't take long!
We're gonna do the twist
and it goes like this:...............
159

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 08:33:18
11,277 heart felt "thank you"s to the people of Glasgow East and a big pat on the back to all the activists that got off thier butts and put the boots on the ground.Well done ,you have made history .
Gordon Brown (trousers?)did you feel that ? I think the earth just moved.
160

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/07/2008 08:34:14
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha giggety giggety giggety...
161

Daveunderwater,

SNP Heartlands 25/07/2008 08:43:00
Early this morning the Edinburgh Earth Observatory recorded a small tremor in the east of Glasgow.

Alex "Bram Seer" Salmond predicted this last week.
162

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 25/07/2008 08:43:07
The only thing that astonishes me about this result is that there were still 10,000 voters who were prepared to support Labour. As for getting the seat back at the general election, this belief shows that the Labour Party is still incapable of analysing what is actually going on in Scotland at the moment. The party is in a state of disintegration and it is not going to recover, at the next election or ever. It has tried, and failed, to swim against the flood tide of what is now a mass social movement. Alex Salmond has said, and I agree, that once the Scottish Parliament was re-established independence was inevitable. The Calman Commission can save its breath and the taxpayers' money, for this movement is now unstoppable.

163

yolanda,

25/07/2008 08:43:10
#177. I thought the same as you. I didn't believe it would happen, although I hoped it was possible. I'm so delighted to be proved wrong.

Brilliant result for the constituents of Glasgow East, John Mason, and the SNP.

Just think how big the majority would have been if the media, including this newspaper, hadn't been so biased. That doesn't matter now though. Regardless of their attempts to influence the vote, John Mason did the business for Glasgow.
164

McGinty,

25/07/2008 08:43:16
#166. You're right about Trumplickers, and the daft thing is, it's totally unnecessary for both parties as hopefully the issue should be settled on merit, rather than on political opportunity. Most reasonably minded people in Scotland will surely rate issues like social justice more highly and both parties need to up their game on this.
165

GordonJ,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 08:53:08
The people of Glasgow aren't daft. This is only a smack on the nose for Labour to help them wake-up and realise the issues that are out there. Come General Election time they will be back in and the SNP will be running home with their tails between their legs. It's a well known fact that the majority of people are not for independence of Scotland - as a result the SNP is a meaningless party.
166

Gorgie's Finest,

25/07/2008 08:53:39
Well done the SNP.

The people of Scotland have spoken.

The gravity of this win is most significant. Labours 3rd safest seat in Scotland and 25th safest seat in the UK. Gordon "The StealthTax Man" Browns Jacket must be on a shoogly peg now.
167

McTumshie,

Glasgow 25/07/2008 08:54:16
A justified vote against the party of deadbeats and a vote against the fact that Glasgow East has languished in a state of dereliction for years. It may even be a protest at the way MPs continue to feather their nests while their constituents suffer the privations.
168

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 08:56:03
My heartfelt thanks to the people of the East End.

I always knew you could do it, after all, this is where I come from.

Well done John Mason!

This result ranks alongside your favourite football club’s famous cup victory over their one time east-end neighbours a couple of years ago.
(That contest was live on tv too).

Mason 1 Unionists 0. How sweet is that?

Thanks are also due to all those nice people at Ladbrokes, who inadvertently have helped to swell the SNP coffers for the next contest.
169

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/07/2008 08:58:25
Gordon Brown is a Moron but he has leather skin, He won't go of his own accord, he needs to be forced to walk the plank by his scurrilous scurvy ridden bunch of rum guzzling shipmates...
170

Daveunderwater,

25/07/2008 08:58:41
It seems David Marshall had 500,000 reasons to stand down, all will be revealed shortly, not that keeping the sleaze under wraps made any difference to the result.
171

lodger,

Highland 25/07/2008 08:59:10
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

or in gaelic :-

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

If that sounds to you like laughing, your right, I AM!

What a fantastic result!

When the history of Scotland is written about in future times, this will be seen as a major turning point.
172

eric,

Lothian 25/07/2008 08:59:16
:)
173

Jambo Number 1,

25/07/2008 09:01:52
If only Hibs had conceaded a 7th then my night would have been a true party.

WELL DONE TO ALL MY SNP COMRADES!!!!
174

Daveunderwater,

25/07/2008 09:02:23
# 185

How many smacks will it take?

I'm surprised Labour have any snout left, having been in the trough for so many years.
175

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 25/07/2008 09:03:16
And the Tories have still to play the trump card - what Brown has done to everybosy's pension.
176

Mikey,

25/07/2008 09:05:23
The people have spoken and the SNP have been elected.

Listening to the SLab Boys, it's obvious they've learned nothing. 'We'll yake the seat back at the next election,' my a*se! You've been exposed as liars, cheats and thieves! Time to kick them all out!
177

Steve_HMFC,

25/07/2008 09:08:14
I never knew Gunther from Friends was the SNP's candidate... seriously I havnt seen many photos of him, he was severely overshadowed by Salmond (11 or so visits?) in the by-election.... Salmonds challenge that it was a referendum on Edinburgh govt vs London govt was proof he didnt have confidence in his candidate to beat Curran based on their individual credentials.

But fair play to the guy, he might look like a ned, but he's now an MP and I hope he serves the interests of Glasgow East well vis-a-vis just focusing on 'his only reason of being in politics' of trying to break up the UK..
178

Logie Almond,

25/07/2008 09:08:19
The people have spoken...the b*st*rds!
179

Fraz 0810,

Dunfermline 25/07/2008 09:10:37
Huge congratulations to the SNP and Mr Mason on what can only be described as an historic day in british/scottish politics - this was, after all, Labour's 3rd safest seat people!
A huge kick in the teeth for Liebour, and certainly no less than they utterly deserved - it's about time we had a party in Scotland, voted by Scotland, and representing Scotland - bring on the election.
Only concern with this vote is that it may be more representative of the pervasive loathing of Liebour, than a conscious and true vote for independence - either way, I'd still rather have the SNP representing me than that bunch of londoncentric muppets.
180

BK,

Cyberspace 25/07/2008 09:13:46
"
David Mundell, Conservative shadow secretary of state for Scotland, said "We have to look at this vote in a UK context, not just a Scottish one."

Like in the context that the UK might have no future at all?
181

Owain Glyndwr,

Caerdydd 25/07/2008 09:19:49
Llongyfarchiadau mawr o Gymru i John Mason a'r SNP.

Many congratulations from Wales to John Mason and the SNP.

Keep up the good work.


182

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 09:20:54
Am 2 upset to post today?
183

Sedov,

Scotland 25/07/2008 09:23:33
The only surprise was that the majority was not bigger.
All parties had mediocre candidates with mediocre policies and who wrung their hands over the poverty in the area but had no real solutions on how to redistribute the wealth from the rich to the poor so it will be business as usual I'm afraid. The SNP, like Labour are unwilling and unable to really change things in favour of working people and they will soon be found out as another bosses party in the East End of Glasgow ( although many people already know that) The Tories will be chuffed as they are looking at the big picture and so will the one time socialist Tommy Sheridan who, by his latest rantings appears to be a closet nationalist and is moving more and more to the right although he would deny it of course. The good news is that this result confirms what the tiny rump of remaining (real) socialists in Scotland have been saying for a long time - that only a radical socialist programme for real and fundemental change would be the hottest ticket in town and bring the traditional support back for Labour. Those Labour Scottish MP's who denied a leadership contest by the coronation of Brown must be asking themselves what damage they have done to their own chances at the next election. Although the SNP may snip around the edges of the status quo and be as opportunist as ever - nothing much will change.
184

aljok.23,

the world 25/07/2008 09:23:45
How did Labour get so many. Shame on you Glasgow. Shame on you. Wake up .What is in the way?
185

AJ Fife,

25/07/2008 09:25:38
It's a great day to be Scottish and a great day for the SNP campaign team!

Glasgow's East End have said no to poverty, misery and corruption. The Glasgow public have, at long last, finally seen the light. Mr Salmond and his party represent and fight for the people of our proud nation, and this result endorses the SNP efforts of the last year.

The days of Westminster control are numbered and Scotland's future looks brighter by the day!
186

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 09:28:24
No doubt Unionists will be hoping that the Nationalist hold on Glasgow East will only last until the next UK General Election but the most incompetent politicians in the Western World, the Scots Unionist parties, have once again allowed the SNP to crash through another glass ceiling, and who knows where it might end?

Instead of governing for the well-off in Middle England, Gordon Brown's failing government had better start looking after its core Scottish (and British) Labour support or it might well end up defecting in tens of thousands to the Nationalists?

This result says more about Unionism in Scotland than an opportunist Nationalist Party and it is high time that the Layabout Party in Scotland, along with the
Blue Rinse Scots Tories and anonymous Scots Lib-Dems, redd out their rotting parties before there is no Union left to support!
187

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 25/07/2008 09:30:09
I have never been so more proud of being a loyal Scot than I feel at present for our Scottish Nation,its people and its future; than I do at this moment.
Born in the early 1920's and involved politically from an early age as a teenager with great pride hoping to live long enough too see the day, when the restoration of our Nation's people regained the freedom to decide what is the right or wrong political path to choose for themselves, on how they wish to be governed FROM Scotland, and not from "British" London.
Being,Ayrshire born in the same county as our highly revered world wide bard and patriot Rabbie Burns,is an honour I would never trade at any time-and for any amount of 'English Gold'.
Rabbie, when the traitorous Establishment sold our country's Independence without any consultation with its people, prompted him to launch his powerfull and immortal attack on the ACT of UNION when composing his wonderfull poem with his everlasting and famous declaration!
WE'RE BOUGHT AND SOLD FOR ENGLISH GOLD,
SUCH A PARCEL OF ROGUES IN A NATION.
Let our present Scottish government make it a top priority for our Nation to be rightfully represented at the 2012 Olympic games the same as any other nation on planet earth, and I'll be happy, and only hope I live long enough to enjoy that day!
188

nostress,

grangemouth 25/07/2008 09:30:36
I'm very pleased the people of the East End of Glasgow have finally got an honest, decent representative and that serial liar Margaret Curran and her corrupt, lousy party got their just desserts. Maybe now, we'll get the real story of the Marshall family's reign of corruption which has fleeced the public finances for so long. You can be sure John Mason will be an MP, who will put the interests of his constituents first, not his party.

Interesting to hear M. Curran's language in her speech - "I'm sorry to have lost this seat for Labour" - tells you everything you need to know about their priorities - party first, second and third and to hell with the people! The contempt Labour have for their own supporters is breathtaking!

Labour are corrupt and rotten to the core and have been for decades in Scotland. Just watch their vituperation and visceral hatred for the people of Scotland grow!

The only words of truth M Curran could come out with in the past 4 weeks were in her loser's speech this morning when she finished up with "inequality is at the heart of Labour" - you really couldnae make this stuff up
189

shivago8,

livingston 25/07/2008 09:32:12
Bonnie Scotland,we are on a roll.
lets stand up and unite in our independence
The English breakaway is on the cards
190

Michael,

25/07/2008 09:32:40
Excellent result for the SNP. For those of us who have sat through decades of election nights where the Currans of this world have been returned time after time, this is a fantastic feeling. What makes it even more satisfying is knowing they've brought this on themselves. "The Labour resurgence starts here". ............aye, right!
191

rodm,

25/07/2008 09:34:45
# 167
Totally agree, she was on Radio 4 this morning what a revelation.Lets have a general election as soon as possible, Tory UK government, SNP Scottish Government,
leading very quickly to independence for both Scotland and England, and not a Labour scumbag in either place
well done Glasgow.
192

cataibh,

Over the Struie 25/07/2008 09:37:15
Steve 197 Have you been living in the dark ages? The reason the SNP is so popular is that the party was formed to bring independence to Scotland. I joined the SNP in 1955 for that reason and that reason only.
193

Finbar in the Sun,

Nottingham,UK 25/07/2008 09:37:33
God Bless the people of the much maligned Glasgow East.

Just logged on.Happy days indeed.

Going to be a great weekend.

Sun is shining,weather is sweet,makes you want to groove,go dancing!!!!!
194

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 09:39:17
I had my doubts in my last post yesterday. I did say at the beginning that I had spread my bets. I also said the SNP would win. I also said the bookies feared this. The odds on labour shortened yesterday to try to find mugs looking for a "safe" bet. Well done to the good people of Glasgow East. Off to collect my winnings. I'll see you all at the next by election.
TTFN
195

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 09:40:23
ps Over time, you'll ALWAYS make more money betting on 2nd favourites.
196

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 09:44:04
#185 Gordon

You are kidding yourself son. Mason will consolidate this result over the next 2 years in the run-up to the next General Election. Make no mistake, Mason connects with the people.
197

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 09:45:38
#208 Mr. Lachie Todd
"This result says more about Unionism in Scotland than an opportunist Nationalist Party and it is high time that the Layabout Party in Scotland, along with the
Blue Rinse Scots Tories and anonymous Scots Lib-Dems, redd out their rotting parties before there is no Union left to support!"

Another Unionist that could not give a t*ss about Scotland or who runs it,just so long as it ruled from London. Mate you really have not got a clue ,its an attitude like the one you have that makes the SNP the ONLY choice for Scotland, as the good people of Glaswgow East have just demonstarted.But I admire your guts for posting .AM2 where are you??
198

Alan B,

25/07/2008 09:48:08
When the dust settles it will be interesting to see what this result actually means.

Will Brown resign? It seems now likely that there is no way labour will win the next election. He will probably try to hold on to the bitter end. But that in itself could destroy the labour party. The longer he holds on the bigger the defeat and the longer the recovery time for the party. (It is even possible the lib dems could become the 2nd biggest party after the election.)

The problem for labour now is they will be seen as losers. Poeple tend to abondon parties when they get into difficulties and there is really no way back for brown. the problem for labour is browns ego will not let him manage a handover to someone that could rectify the situation.

For scotland specifically it will bolster the snp and will give them an air of superiority that will attract support. Who will replace wendy. None of labour holyrood msps even look competent for the job. If it is ian grey as tipped he will be swept aside by salmond.

This will all give momentum to the snp. If labour do another uturn on a referendum they will be humiliated but if they donen't they have so little credibility to fight any referendum.

I am very interested now to see what calman actually comes up with. With rumbles the best of the lib dem candidates supporting fiscal autonomy it is unlikely they as a party will allow calman to be a whitewash.
199

Rosie,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 09:49:48
:) What a great night for Scotland! I am so happy happy happy happy!
200

The Strategist,

25/07/2008 09:53:55
Margaret Curran is of course now unlikely to stand for the leadership of Labour in Scotland.
201

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 25/07/2008 09:55:21
Good news! Just saw Ton Benn talking sense on the Beeb. Why are Labour spending so much money on war, Trident, aircraft carriers etc when there's so much poverty in Glasgow, in the world.

At the very least, independence would see and end to spending money on war instead of hospitals, schools and public services.
202

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England 25/07/2008 09:55:40
Gordon, in the name of God - GO! (back up to Kirkcaldy) and leave us to manage our own affairs for a change.

What a great day. In future, men will celebrate June 24th as the day the corrupt alliance of the Union finally broke up - and good riddance to bad rubbish.

From all the people of England, currently living under an occupying foreign junta, I wish all Scots well (apart from Brown, Darling, Alexander, Browne, Blair, Falconer, Kennedy and the Krankies, obviously) on your journey to indepence - I only wish the English nationalist movement had such a charismatic leader as Salmond.

One day soon, we too will have our own 'Glasgow East' - and English Nationalists will start to gain control of our much abused country - and cast the Kirkcaldy Kontrol Freak back where he belongs.

ENGLISH PARLIAMENT NOW!!!!!!!!




203

eric,

Lothian 25/07/2008 09:55:42
Away back tae yer Posh hoose in South side of Glasgow Noo Mags!geez aw peace.
204

Gruithainn,

Arbroath - crucible of Scottish Independence 25/07/2008 09:56:15
The result merely emphasises that all 3 Unionist parties tinkerings with the dying embers of the United Kingdom cannot match the burning flame of freedom that is alive in Scotland. The process of independence is gathering probably irretrievable momentum - the SNP may be thwarted in future, but cannot & will not be stopped now.

Well done to Glasgow East for an historic moment.
205

weeshooie1,

Wollongong 25/07/2008 09:58:56
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away. Whoa son, this is history, not some wee fairytale. Congratulations to John Mason and the SNP :0) x 10
206

Dick Lynas,

25/07/2008 10:00:46
As someone who spent the first 25 years of his life growing up in the east end, I actually feel a bit of sympathy for Gordon Brown, the man who gets to carry the can.

I guess whoever followed as leader after the ten ruinous years of Blair was always bound to suffer in the same way that whoever followed Bush was always bound to suffer - as we shall see later in the year.

Yet only the other day Brown made a courageous speech in the Knesset where he told the Israelis exactly what they should be doing to resolve the middle east situation - a speech of a kind that Blair would never have had the courage or the principles to make (although if there are any developments in the midddle east we can be sure that Blair will claim the credit)

Meanwhile the east, as opposed to the middle east, will get back to its usual state once the cameras pack up and go.I wont be surprised if the seat reverts to Labour at the general election but the next Labour MP will be a member of the opposition.

A further legacy of the Colgate Kid

207

Memyself&I,

25/07/2008 10:01:01
#226 Seperatist nonsense.
208

eric,

Lothian 25/07/2008 10:01:17
Mr Salmond visited the east end 11 times over the year.!Labour have abandoned the working class in Scotland.Roll on the general election .Ill be celebrating with our English freinds when they convert labour into touch.
209

Sunrise,

FIfe 25/07/2008 10:02:21
This was a surprise.

All the stories of Labour just squeezing home seemed to have been all spin after all. The bookies got it wrong too.

I'm not a great fan of Ms Curran but I sense she was let down by the Labour machine. She was certainly good enough to win this for them. But, it seems that no matter how much energy she could put into the task she was untimely brought down by poor party support and the an opponent who’s only real claim to fame was that he was a very honest and decent man. He should be proud of himself.
210

Mikey,

25/07/2008 10:03:44
The problem with Gordie is that he CAN'T resign! Three leaders between elections? Even Labour can't be THAT stupid? Or can they?

As a loyal Scot, I was delighted with the result. The absence of the usual Brits on the forum shows where THEIR loyalties lie!
211

Steve_HMFC,

25/07/2008 10:05:53
#214

"Have you been living in the dark ages?"

What?

"The reason the SNP is so popular is that the party was formed to bring independence to Scotland."

Thats not necessarily true, despite the SNP's successes last May and today, the support for independance has not grown in line with their popularity. They were elected on the manifesto of having a referendum on the issue, if they had said "vote us and we'll make Scotland independent staright away" they would have lost a lot of votes...

In both last May's Holyrood elections and this by-election they played down the independance issue (barely mentioned these last few weeks) because they know the majority of Scotland dont have an appetite independence at this moment in time.

The SNP have had a good year so they must be wondering why support for separation hasnt increased.. they are in no doubt waiting for a Tory govt to be elected in Westminster. Independence will inevitably be more popular if the Ruling Party in the UK is predominantly English and led by a toff like DC, with only one or two Scottish Mps, one of which (Mundell) might be in the cabinet.. this scenario would fuel independence support more than now now when the Pm, CoE and other cabinet members are Scottish. (the Tories are also likely to ban Scottish MPs from a lot of voting on English issues)

"I joined the SNP in 1955 for that reason and that reason only."

So you're not interested in 'minor' issues such as the Economy, Health, Education, the Environment, Transport, Crime, Policing, and Work & Pensions?
212

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 25/07/2008 10:06:45
Labour are right, this is one of the most deprived areas in the country. But then, it has been Labour that has been in charge of all the most deprived areas in the country for the best part of 50 years. With representation at Local, Scottish, Britiah and European Level, Labour has dismallly failed to help most of those areas, which are as relatively poor these days as they were 50 years ago. Vote Labour, Vote for continuing poverty.
But not anymore, the People have woken up at at last.
213

Chris,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 10:07:38
#152: At least the people of Glasgow East realised that Curran lives in the affluent South side, not, as she claimed, all her life in the East end:
"Margaret Curran, Labour's candidate in the Glasgow East by-election, was yesterday forced to clarify a claim she had lived in the east end "all my life" after it emerged she has lived in an affluent part of the south side of the city for the past 20 years. The Glasgow Baillieston MSP angrily denied allegations that she had misled voters, although an aide later conceded she may have made a "slip of the tongue". Ms Curran is not the only candidate to stay outwith the Glasgow East boundaries: at the close of entries to the Electoral Office at Glasgow City Council yesterday, it emerged that, of the mainstream candidates, only one - the SNP's John Mason - actually lives there."
Slip of the tongue - aye, right.
214

Stickman,

25/07/2008 10:08:25

This is great news for Scotland. Corruption and sleaze has been booted out on its a*se. You just KNOW that John Mason won't stick his fingers in the till, unlike Marshall and his cronies (such as Red Mags) who have conveniently tried to brush aside all questions relating to the theft and deceit of her former colleague. How the SNP conduct themselves in future remains to be seen, but for the moment at least, Scotland can look forward to honest politicians.

Well done John Mason and SNP. An absolute stoater of a victory!

Nicola Sturgeon, after last night you have gone way up in my estimations. I feel we are in safe hands.... for the time being at least.
215

donald anderson it's me,

weegieland 25/07/2008 10:10:25
Where was John Reid and his Loyalist vote during the by election. Will we have to suffer Brian Wilson on the telly again?
216

AJ Fife,

25/07/2008 10:11:45
#233,

It's a bad day to be British and a particularly bad day to be associated with the Labour Party!!

The Onionists will reappear next week sometime, I'm sure. Their wounds will take a lot of lickin'! :)
217

,

25/07/2008 10:11:55
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218

,

25/07/2008 10:12:15
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219

AM2,

Scotland,UK 25/07/2008 10:12:39
#13 MacGillicuddy

I went to bed. Even if the SNP had been edged out, there was only ever going to be one winner. Congratulations to Mr Mason and his campaign team.

However, the lack of grace in victory displayed in last night’s and this thread: the tasteless and divisive goading of unionists as “trolls”, “doubters” and “oppressors”, for example – and more than anything else, the portrayal of the SNP's win as a victory for Scotland, the implication being that the other parties are “enemies of Scotland” – causes my blood to run cold.

So enjoy your “celebrations”, CyberNats. I won’t sully your thread again. But don't kid yourselves that a majority of people will ever think as you do.
220

C U Jimmy,

Mauchline 25/07/2008 10:14:10
Keep Gordon brown and all the other no brainers, "if it works don't fix it".
221

Mikey,

25/07/2008 10:15:33
#230, Seperatist nonsense?

Seperatist, yes! Nonsense,no!

Every loyal Scot will be cheered up by this result! Today is a good day to be Scottish!

222

yolanda,

25/07/2008 10:16:51
Morning AJ,

Isn't it a lovely morning! Isn't it nice to see the good guys won after all? I had my doubts, but I'm happy to have been proved wrong. It's not often Im wrong, but I don't mind this time!

All is well in the Square...
223

scottish person,

paisley 25/07/2008 10:18:30
I cant believe it, not only have the SNP won, they have silenced the gub, known as AM2. Have we seen the last of his rants. I cant believe he does not have the guts to post.
Well done Mr Mason. Good riddance McChattering Cairns and Curran.
I feel proud of the people of the East end of Glasgow.
224

Keren, It's time,

We won we won we won you lost you lost you lost 25/07/2008 10:18:46
Fantastic result - part of it is due in no small part to Anne and Liz who masterminded the SNP campaign.

I'm not one to gloat but what the hell..

Are you watching Hamish MacDonnell are you watching Hamish Macdonell??
225

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 10:19:31
242 AM2

Why did you report my post yesterday?
226

Sedov,

Scotland 25/07/2008 10:19:56
#234 HMFC A good post which analyses correctly the present situation. It is important to have a sense of perspective about what is happening. Labour have failed - the electorate want to try something else, that is their right - and the SNP have only been in power in Scotland for a tiny proportion of the time that other parties have been in over the past and therefore have not really been tried and tested over any reasonable time . In reality the SNP have acheived very little in the short time that they have been in power but the protest against Labour will have to run its course before the real verdict over the nationalists is decided. There is a long way to go and I stick to my prediction that within the next two years they will be found out - but for the NATS -enjoy the moment.
227

,

25/07/2008 10:20:11
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228

C U Jimmy,

Mauchline 25/07/2008 10:20:11
Repy to 240

You missed out Oliver Cromwell and General Wade.!
229

R.Soles,

Manchester 25/07/2008 10:20:51
This is also a timely reminder for the Labour party and its supporters that some people never listen and others never learn. Well done the voters of Glasgow East. Buy Margaret Curran a canoe. It won't cost £500.000

230

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 10:20:54
242
Dug yourself out from the broken pieces of Unionist sky...?
...Again;-)
231

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 10:21:28
242:

Think you better listen to what the SNP canvassers said regarding the feedback they were getting on the question of independence on the doorsteps of Glasgow.

Most people agreed without question!

232

Gtj,

25/07/2008 10:24:43
I would like to Congratulate the people of Glasgow East for seeing Labour for what they are.

I think some unionist supporters and the Labour party need a reality check, however this will not happen until they lose the next UK general election.
233

Alan B,

25/07/2008 10:25:24
#Steve_HMFC

"So you're not interested in 'minor' issues such as the Economy, Health, Education, the Environment, Transport, Crime, Policing, and Work & Pensions?"

The point about independence is to allow scotland to control these issue you mention above. All scotland to select the party of government and kick them out when they do not perform. Rather than the situation where if england vote for a party scotland are ruled by that party nomatter whether they have a popular mandate. We have also seen how the labour party had to give up all its values and policies to make itself electable in england.

In regard to the issues you mention:
Economy - Scotland has massively underperformed while in the union over the last 40yrs. Economic growth has averaged less that 2% per yr on average. Over the last decade it the small european nations that have performed best and are known in economic circles as the arc of prosperity. Scotland has underperformed not only them but also the uk as a hole. Do you honestly think labour or the tories will turn round scotlands economic performance within the union.

If you are interested in scotlands economic performance then independence makes sense. Although it could be argued that by devolving economic tools to the scottish parliament then you could remain in the union. Problem is none of the unionist parties will consider that eg fiscal autonomy, competition policy, regulations, monetary policy direction.

Most of the other issues you mention flow from having a successful and just economic policy.

Issues like crime, policing, transport, health and education are largely devolved. So you have to ask are they better managed and more democratically accountable now than before the scottish parliament.

But there are also problems with the fudge that labour made in the sp. We have see that with labour try to use legal means or withholding money to stop the democratically elected government implementing its policies.

Look at
234

Alan B,

25/07/2008 10:25:52
cont..

Look at transport. It is absurd that westminster control train track but the sp funds track projects and trains. The whole train system should be run by the scottish parliament. This situation was created as labour devolved powers after devolution but did not want to go back and ammend the scotland act. But the renationalisation of railtrack should have allowed this mess to be sorted out.

On police and transport it is ridiculous that the sp cannot control the number of police in a police car while policing and law and order are main devolved matters. U could go on about drugs and firearms etc.

Given the current mess of the union and scotland economic underperformance within it over a long period of time what is the point of the union.
235

AJ Fife,

25/07/2008 10:26:31
Hi Yolanda,

Like you I thought it was maybe too big an ask, but there you go, the First Minister called it exactly right!

The real winners last night however, are the people of Glasgow's East End! They are now represented by someone who will give his all and who has the backing of a dynamic and vibrant party.

I'm not sure about the Square being alright Yolanda, but your Patrick seemed to be a bit frisky the other night!
236

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 10:28:03
Let us remind ourselves who won last night...a PRO-INDEPENDENCE party overturning a massive majority and leaving the Tories and Lib Dems nowhere...that is the reality but unionists still will not accept it.
237

geekpie,

forfar 25/07/2008 10:28:09
Alex Salmand frequently referred to the price of petrol in the campaign which was both populist, irresponsible and below the belt.

He knows as well as the next man that, as the RAC Foundation pointed out last month, the cost of motoring has fallen by 18% in real terms over the past 20 years, which is why there are far too many cars and far too many people organising their lives around excessive car mileage.

Irresponsible from the SNP.
238

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 10:28:43
Oh dear Labour, oh dear ... you HAVE been found out for years of arrogance, corruption and sleaze ... even your staunchest supports leave you by the bushel !!

I don't support the separatist agenda but I LOVE the fact that the people are waking up and seeing the disgusting Labour party for what they are ....

I thought democracy was dead ... maybe this is a sign that the people can get rid of a cancerous corrupt political movement without resorting to extreme measures ....

Well done SNP!! Well done ! Please do with this new power good for the people. Curb spendthrift councils - get rid of unnecessary staff throughout the public sector - root out the corruption and nepotism and do it with such vigour and with sharp teeth that these corrupt useless slime balls will never think about a career in public service again!

PS - screw the unions too - get rid of them or castrate them - they are behind the gross inefficiency and the unreasonable objections you get when trying to sort the mess out.
239

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 10:29:18
AM2 I was going to suggest you hitch a lift to Berwick but it may have to be a bit further south than that.
: )
240

Thistledhu,

25/07/2008 10:30:29
Watched on tv as the candidates were told the result at the side of the stage did anyone else see Magaret curran point and wag her finger at someone.
Wonder what she was saying?

Something like you talked me into this youve ruined my career perhaps?
241

,

25/07/2008 10:31:23
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242

Reiver97,

The Borderlands 25/07/2008 10:33:01
Congrats to the SNP on pwning Labour with their Epic Win! The SNP are in your bases taking your seats. FTW! etc

A marvelous piece of news to start the day with.

But a closer look at the result its shamefully shows that any one of the three other candidates supporting independence (and all sharing other key policies with the SNP), the SSP, Solidarity and the Greens could just have saved the seat for the Union and possibly even saved the job of the pro-war PM with their 1,300 votes.

Thankfully it didnt happen but they should be ashamed with themselves nevertheless.
243

An Beal Bacht,

25/07/2008 10:34:41
234 Steve_HMFC, 25/07/2008 10:05:53

"In both last May's Holyrood elections and this by-election they played down the independance issue (barely mentioned these last few weeks) because they know the majority of Scotland dont have an appetite independence at this moment in time."

Labour let everyone and their granny know that Mason was a "hard line nationalist who only came into politics to break up Britain." They got the message Steve.
244

,

25/07/2008 10:35:50
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245

Steve_HMFC,

25/07/2008 10:36:26
#256-7 Alan B

Thank you for your detailed and intelligent post.

The point I was making with the previous poster was they said they only joined the SNP for the single issue of independence, not because they felt it would sort out the issues you clearly raise. Their post just seemed a little narrow minded
246

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 10:36:55
Is AM2 upset? No opinion polls to quote on this one i guess?
247

yolanda,

25/07/2008 10:39:24


Don't you fret Horrible Cankers, there's nae kissin'. He's all yours...

As for the monumental thrashing of Margaret Curran and Labour, time will tell, as you say, but for the moment at least, I feel optimistic that we will start to see more honesty. Let's face it, NOBODY could be as steeped in corruption and sleaze as the Scottish Labour Party.
248

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 10:39:25
267
An Independent Scottish Voice

Why am I in your list of unionists? Have you read anything I posted during the week? Remove me from your list this instant. Once removed, I'll stop posting.
249

Alan B,

25/07/2008 10:40:45
#geekpie

"Alex Salmand frequently referred to the price of petrol in the campaign which was both populist, irresponsible and below the belt. "

Why? Can you justify that remark?

The point about petrol prices is prices have gone up massively over a short period of time.

While the government tries to blame oil price, the point they ignore is much of the petrol price is tax. The government have also made a huge tax windfall due to rising oil prices becuase of taxation.

The snp proposal that that tax windfall should be used to lower petrol taxes so that prices are not so high makes alot of sense.

the underlying problem for labour is they have made a mess of the economy. When time are good they should have build a solid fiscal framework. eg balance the budget over the economic cycle. What they have done is run massive deficits while at the same time increasing taxation considerably. Now when the economic conditions have deteriorated they are not in a position to give much of a fiscal boost to the economy and allows us to run bigger deficits over the next few yrs.

This poor fiscal position (breaking browns own fiscal rules) means he is gratefully accepting the oil tax windfalls rahter than lessening the taxation on petrol to help absorb the prices people are having to pay.
250

Red Tower,

Dunoon 25/07/2008 10:43:30
#74

It always amazes how out of touch Americans are about our politics.
Here is a man who is banging the drum for Maggie Thatcher who would have lost by a landslide if she had been standing in Glasgow East (the problems there were exacerbated by Thatcherism) and for Tony Blair who at George Bush's bidding led us into an illegal war in Iraq. He also was the architect of converting the Labour Party into New Labour i.e. an extension of Thatcherism.

As for fedarlism , our Liberal Party banged that drum for years and it got them nowhere. So please Mr Boone keep your recommendations to yourself. WE HAVE PRECIOUS LITTLE TO LEARN FROM AMERICA. We have no respect for a nation that flaunts international treaties whether on global warming or human rights.
251

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/07/2008 10:44:07
#223 I saw that interview too and was gobsmacked at Tony Ben's frankness and logic in what was probably the most honest political interview I have ever seen. Why do we need to see Dow Jones results every hour? Instead of unemployment figures etc and why are leaders chosen for their charisma instead of their political reasoning? So much common sense yet invisible to modern politicians... The wee interviewer didn't know where to take the interview as he had no answers to give or questions to ask...
252

brownlie,

25/07/2008 10:44:55
Oh, woe is me!!!

What is to become of my beloved union?

AM2 - if you have tears, prepare to shed them now!!!

I understand that Salmond will be sending you, Paisley Pete, Monkey Boy, Rufus and British Pride a letter of thanks for services to the nationalist cause over the last few weeks.
253

view from the grassy knoll,

25/07/2008 10:50:13
twas michael crick wot won it............
curran's display on wednesday's newsnite was a car crash

check it out on you-tube (or 'ya-choob' as SLP now known)
254

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/07/2008 10:51:07
232 Sunrise,FIfe 25/07/2008 10:02:21

Madge was never 'good enough to win this for them',
throughout the campaign, on any televised debate, she evaded answering questions, was downright rude and obnoxious to her fellow candidates and believed that she had an irrefutable right to interrupt anyone when it was their turn to furnish answers to questions, more especially so if it questioned the validity of any of the lies she was telling.

In short the woman is a boorish harridan of the first magnitude.

Oh by the way congratulations to the Hon John F Mason MP and all those SNP activists who were there, on the streets, manning the phones and all the others who helped in whatever way large or small.


255

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25/07/2008 10:55:08
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256

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 10:55:54
#234 Steve_HMFC
"So you're not interested in 'minor' issues such as the Economy, Health, Education, the Environment, Transport, Crime, Policing, and Work & Pensions? "
These are EXACTLY the issues I am concerned about .That why I stopped voting labour and started voting SNP
1. Economically - intrest rates etc. are set for the south of England thus causing unemployment in Scotland. Do you think this is a good postion with the current economic crisis?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/198830.stm
2. This also leads to businesses getting driven OUT of Scotland to head south. Do you think this is good economically?
3 caused a population exodus,note there where less people in Scotland in 2006 than in 1961 and note the amount of ex-pat posters
5,116,900 (2006 est)
5,094,800 (2005 est)
5,078,400 (2004 est)
5,057,400 (2003 est)
5,054,800 (2002 est)
5,062,011 (2001 est)
5,083,000 (1991 est)
5,180,200 (1981 est)
5,234,000 (1971 est)
5,201,000 (1961 est)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Scotland

1961 - 43,983,300
1971 - 45,870,100
1981 - 46,623,500
1991 - 48,067,300
2001 - 49,138,831 [4]
2005 - 50,431,700 [5]
2006 - 50,762,900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_England
Is this good for pensions??
4 caused a Scottish "Brain drain",note the amount of well educated ex-pat posters paying thier taxes to foreign countries.Is this good for work and pensions??
5 caused english people to look at Scots as "subsidy junkies" where the FACTS seem to point the other way
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/trueoilwealth.html
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/myth1995.html
6 caused the Scots to blame the english for OUR problems ,instead of giving us the tools to deal with the problems ourselves. Is this good for law and order and crime prevention?
7 a 25%-30%(at least) LOSS of living standards ,or a 30% Union Jack Tax.
Using the UK’s own assumptions for tax revenue and spending, but including Scotland’s share of North S
257

Geoff,

sa 25/07/2008 10:57:08
Wow!

Firstly,one has to say that Alex Salmond and the SNP deserved their victory and are to be congratulated. I am not nor never will be a supporter of Scottish Independence but one has to acknowledge this achievement.
Secondly and without detracting from the above one has to admit that Genghis Khan could have beaten Labour-they are in a shocking mess and it is quite clear that Gordon brown has to go now. In some respects I do not blame him entirely. I think he is a decent man caught in a situation largely not of his own making in a time of worldwide economic turmoil and at the end of a stale administration. The voting public eventually tires of everyone!
Thirdly as I(and I am sure others) predicted, the entry of the other Unionist parties-Tories and libdems,almost certainly split the vote and cost Labour the seat. The combined Unionist vote was larger than the Nationalist total. Even given for the uncertainties of how voters would have switched if the Tories and LibDems had stood aside, it is probably reasonable to presume that most of them would have supported Labour. If the other Unionist Parties REALLY have the presrvation of the Union as a priority then they will have to consider some kind of Quid Pro Quo co-operation as a Unionist front.
Finally and again, not detracting from the SNP's great performance, it is probable that much of their new support is anti-Labour rather than pro Independence. A Referendum is inevitable.
I still however think that full Independence would be rejected at such a poll.
258

gus1940,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 10:58:06
That's one small step for Glasgow East -potentially one giant leap for Scotland.
259

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25/07/2008 10:58:17
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260

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 10:59:21
cont/
7 a 25%-30%(at least) LOSS of living standards ,or a 30% Union Jack Tax.
Using the UK’s own assumptions for tax revenue and spending, but including Scotland’s share of North Sea Oil receipts, this answer revealed that between 1978-79 and 1994-95 Scotland had a cumulative surplus of £27.6 billion, or £34 billion in today’s prices. At the same time the UK had a deficit of more than £330bn.

That's why the people vote for the SNP.
11,277 thank you's to the people of Glasgow East and all the activists that went there and made history.
261

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 25/07/2008 10:59:29
I am still smiling. I have a mountain of paperwork on my desk, but today, nothing's going to get me down.

Unionists can claim this is not important as the ZaNu Labour muppets did after the Holyrood elections last year. Now they are losing at Westminster from their 3rd safest seat. Yet they still cannot see it. They still deny the will of the people.

No wonder they are so shlt in government when they obviously lack any perception of their environment or the will of the people.



262

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 11:05:00
#282 Hen Broon

And can you imagine Curran's reaction had John Mason claimed to have lived and worked in Glasgow East all his life when he hadn't.

Banshee-like behaviour would have ensued
263

,

25/07/2008 11:05:35
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264

Montford's Jaicket,

Over here 25/07/2008 11:06:01
Well, NotLabour can take heart from the fact that they will have at least one MP after 2010 - stand up Mr Michael Martin; tell us, does it feel good that none of the major parties will oppose you in 2010 or are you, perhaps, thinking of retiring and leaving ALL NotLabour seats open to an SNP/Tor/LibDem onslaught? This, surely, is the nightmare scenario for Gordon Brown and his cohorts after Glasgow East - NOBODY can count themselves as having a safe NotLabour seat any more! Even Coatbridge must be a viable target. With a 10% swing, there are 15 NotLab seats in danger - 20% makes it over 30!

Song moment "Panic in the streets of Birmingham..."
265

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/07/2008 11:06:15
Serious question. Does anyone know what swing would be required to reach Salmond's 20 MP target?
266

Americanbob,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 11:07:10
#273 Red Tower,
You say that it "amazes you how out of touch Americans are about our politics".
#74 Boone said "As a fan of democracy, Congrats to SNP for pulling a win equally phenomenal to George W Bush defeating Bill Clinton's VP, Al Gore, here in 2000." It amazes me just how out of touch Americans often are about their own politics.
In an election where the winning candidate had all the votes counted by officials appointed by his brother how could he have lost? Real democratic huh?
267

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 25/07/2008 11:07:24
Firstly congratulations to John Mason. Some have said he is unlikely to hold the seat at a General Election. I believe he has a considerable personal vote. He won a council seat at a byelection and has continued to be returned and had the highest vote of any candidate at the last local elections. His own area Garrowhill turned out to vote for him. I also believe that the Scottish Government will make the sorting out of problems in Labour's traditional heartlands a priority, as it is necessary for the SNP to make a serious breakthrough in the urban central belt.

The SNP have become a 'national' party in the sense that they he seats in both rural and urban areas which Labour and the Tories never really had.

Ms Curran was a very capable candidate but trying to emphasise the 'local' was always going to be difficult as she could not play that card against Mason, because he was genuinely local and like her was an established representative of the area.

Regarding the result, I was not impressed by the way Glenn Campbell spoke through all of the opening part of the victor's speech. The graphics could have been shown without every percentage and swing stated. It was as though the BBC wished to censor Mason. Curran got a clear run with her concession speech. We maybe did not hear her speech in full either as I never heard her refer to the outgoing MP or congratulate the winner.

In the past the SNP was a party for the protest vote, even a bit of a joke, never having to be taken to task for what they were offering as they would never get into power. This is no longer the case in that, like Labour, they can be tested on their record. As far as I can see Scotland is no longer the one-party monolith dominated from the central belt with an irrelvant rural hinterland and is now emerging as a normal two-party country where most consituencies will be fought out by Labour and the SNP on far more equal terms. The Tories and the Libdems, I reckon, will be increasingly seen t
268

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 25/07/2008 11:07:33
I loved the look on Maggie Currans face last night. Like a pitbull chewing a thistle.

This is no surprise, Scottish symbols have always been difficult for ZaNu Labour to swallow.

A lot of ZaNu Labour MP's will be worried about their own employment now. The Gravy Train may be making an unexpected stop in political and then diverting to unemployment.

Will self interest of the ZaNu Labour in Scotland MP's cause them to reconsider how they represent our people. Maybe they will realise that the people are their employer.
269

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/07/2008 11:12:00
One small pick for a scotsman one giant step for Scottish Nose Pickers :)
270

The Master,

No 7 on Nats' hatelist and apparently falling 25/07/2008 11:18:50
Labour persistently reminded voters of Mason’s fundamental objectives, but this pretty evidently did not seem to deter them: after all, the Nats’s emphasis in the campaign was on food and fuel prices etc.

In other words, they no longer associate the Nats primarily with their separation agenda and, as time wears on (and a referendum is no doubt eventually lost somewhere down the line), Scottish separation can only become ever more peripheral to the party. Mark my words, for they are wise words and it can only be a matter of time before fundamentalists within the party begin to tumble to their truth.
271

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 11:18:50
Just to let everyone know it even made the Russian news and 'independence' was the core of the story and the rise of the SNP...hehehehe at least we are getting some international profile!
272

,

25/07/2008 11:19:47
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273

Suomi,

SaloFinland 25/07/2008 11:21:48
Congratulations SNP.This result confirms the evidence from the 2007 elections for the Scottish Parliament that the SNP can now compete with Labour in their heartlands.A popular local candidate and an SNP government that delivers what people want,overcame media bias and a huge Labour majority.Interesting times.
274

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

25/07/2008 11:28:37
293 The Master,No 7 on Nats' hatelist and apparently falling 25/07/2008

Mark MiWurds, wiz he no a poyit frae Yorksheer?

Still in denial I see.

275

Cam3,

25/07/2008 11:35:16
Stunning victory. Good news for Scotland. Good news for Glasgow. Well done Glasgow East!

On the subject of Unionist trolls, who've little more time to do anything other than waste energy on telling us how incapable we are, I think the notion of a 'league table of unionist half-wits' is a great idea - a simple guide [if you will] to a brand of nay-saying, fearmongering ideologies we can tell our children to avoid.
276

Nevsky,

Moscow 25/07/2008 11:37:16
There will be BIG changes afoot in the Scottish Labour Party.

They now face a Tory Government in Westminster and a new leader of the Labour Party who is not a Scot and does not come from an entrenched 1970s Labour background.

The gap will inevitably widen between the UK and the Scottish Labour Party who will have to gain more independence as it seems an almost impossible task now to keep any unity in a UK Labour party.

It's possible now that members will see their future in an independent Scotland as Labour has nothing to fight for in the UK. They have nowhere to go!
277

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

25/07/2008 11:37:23
Hi all, Congrat's to the SNP from an English Pro-Independence man.

Not Long now eh?
278

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 11:38:18
#293 The Master(debator or a cunning linguist?)
"Scottish separation can only become ever more peripheral to the party. Mark my words, for they are wise words and it can only be a matter of time before fundamentalists within the party begin to tumble to their truth."
Another deluded unionist. Please in recent European history there have been
Estonia , Latvia ,Lithuania , theCzech Rep , Slovakia ,Slovenia , Bosnia and many other "OLD" nations that have re-claimed thier national European status. Can you name ONE that thinks today it was a BAD idea? BTW I do not think any of these countries pump oil but they are still happy to be independant. So the break up of the USSR must of come as quite a shock to you.....
279

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 11:45:45
Get me off the list of Unionists please.
280

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 25/07/2008 11:47:06
There is a slight bleary-eyed feeling for today but I think that goes hand in hand with a sense that there was something really crucial to the future of Scottish politics on show and to be seen last night with Mason's victory. I'm not suggesting people in Scotland are yet determined to the arguments of independence as a whole and nor do I suggest Labour are knocked out for the count and ready to admit defeat on their one issue of unionism, but there are signs around which we can tip-toe.

Firstly, I hope this means the more commitedly silly political commentators we heard from and whose scribblings we had to endure during the campaign begin to speak and write about Glasgow East with a greater level of respect. Secondly, and most importantly for the future of Scotland, I would suggest, more so than some of the other by-election victories for the SNP, that this signals people's new openness to the premise that underpns a belief in independence. In order for Scotland to aim toward a good politics of multi-party, social democratic democracy and the benefits that pertain from such politics then Scotland should be independent. In order for Scotland to improve our relations with all our neighbours then Scotland should be independent. In order to become an equal member of the EU and to then maximise influence in the EU and in the wider world then Scotland should be independent. In other words, the everyday issues and independence cannot be detached from one another, a belief in independence underpins a belief that politics can and should be improved. That is the aspect of this victory, I think, that suggests Scotland's politics is already on the way to great improvement.

Congratulations to all the actvists, to the SNP members, to the SNP leaders, and to John Mason.
281

N B,

25/07/2008 11:48:09
What worries me about the rise of the national socialist party in Scotland is that they are Political Chameleons who change their policy to suit the focus groups and opinion polls. Gone are the days when they were a single issue, almost apolitical party who cared more about attaining independence rather than becoming cogs in the wheels of the current politcal machine. Also, as the retinue of full-time SNP politicians grows, the more desperate they become to find tax-payer funded jobs for them to fill.

Independence for Scotland within the European Superstate is definitely achievable, the question that the Scottish people have to address is, is it worth having? The facts of the matter are that Scotland has a sick(by European standards) and ageing population. Being part of a union with an Economic giant like England benefits Scotland in so many ways.
282

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England 25/07/2008 11:51:16
#302

Dave - No no you mis-understand.

I am Pro-Scottish Independence, from England. I am fed up wi' being 'British' Ahm nae British, I'm English, from England and wish that to be the case.

Many posters on these boards from Scotland have expressed the same desire (all be it from the other side of the fence, eh?)

How's Barra today. Tunbridge Wells is overcast but warm . . .
283

N B,

25/07/2008 11:53:23
Who remembers when Jim Sillar's took up his seat at Westminster following the win in the Govan by election. Interviewed on the steps of the Houses of Parliament he Declared, " We are not going in there to plead Scotland's case, we are going in there to demand Scotland's freedom!". How times have changed.

All this was in the days before the Australian Mr. Gibson, plucked at the Scottish heart strings with his epic portrayal of Mr. Wallace.

284

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

25/07/2008 11:53:54
#305

N.B - erm . . . you might want to use another phrase other than the 'national socialist party'

That has very dodgy historical conotations . . .
285

N B,

25/07/2008 11:56:11
#307 Dave

The generous English have funded many of the facilities you take for granted in your island paradise. Without them remote locations such as yours will be the first to suffer.
286

Geoff,

sa 25/07/2008 11:57:19
259 Nevsky-see my post at 280. A pro independence party won yes, but the majority of the votes were still cast for Unionist Parties.
287

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from earth's core 25/07/2008 11:57:46
#305 N,B
What economic benefits from an economic giant like England?
We have ploughed 100BILLION pounds ,this year alone, into Englands financial markets just to keep them open! and the Eurozone or EU is the BIGGEST economic force on the planet and has been since the Euro hit approx 1.8 dollars. It would be much better to conduct our trade FREELY with them.
#312 N.B you are waffling b*ll*cks again
288

Fanling,

Switzerland 25/07/2008 11:57:52
Well done the articulate John Mason, and the SNP. The Labour candidate was a cringing embarrassment of the kind that has plagued "traditional" Labour heartlands for generations. Change is long overdue. It's up to the SNP now to work to make it happen.

#242 AM2
Started off well ("I went to bed [sure]. Even if the SNP had been edged out, there was only ever going to be one winner. Congratulations to Mr Mason and his campaign team."), but couldn't resist the needle:

'So enjoy your “celebrations”, CyberNats. I won’t sully your thread again. But don't kid yourselves that a majority of people will ever think as you do.'

Let's see whether you keep your promise this time. You pretend to congratulate, but the mask quickly slipped. The "don't kid yourselves" aside is based on precisely what? Oh never mind - there will no doubt be a manufactured stat in the archive to cover it.

289

mcmadmanreturns,

25/07/2008 11:58:10
They're all sulking. But AM2 will be back soon to delete all posts he doesn't like.
290

N B,

25/07/2008 11:58:52
#310 Neal

THe SNp are both Nationalist and Socialists. The historical comparison is pertinent if you consider there Politcal Chameleon approach, who knows what they really stand for? What the focus group wants the focus group gets, dangerous stuf...
291

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 25/07/2008 12:00:26
Its a case of labour, trying to spin and manipulate the whole shebang, which thankfully blew up in their faces.
Having done some canvassing on the doorsteps to try and get the beleaguered tory vote out, alot of them were voting SNP tactically, but I was also interested that alot of locals (labour) had high respect for John Mason as a councillor and that made it easier in some cases for them to switch to SNP.

However having talked to one of the counting staff, the real swing lie with postal voting, with high numbers of SNP voters voting postally, just how many of these were ex labour I have no idea, but it would seem that "The Fair" campaign backfired in this direction.
So on balance a good result for the SNP, better organized a more coherent message, for labour you now have Majoritis a terminal condition. As for the tories, they can take some heart out of this, but there is a long long way to go before they can expect to get double digit seat numbers in a general election in Scotland, as for the lib-dems they are looking at a very difficult time, up here they are tainted with their association with labour for 8 years, and a pretty vapid line up for their scottish leader (which is a shame because Ian Robertson was a good local candidate). As for Tommy and the rest, well its a case of a long goodbye with most likely some of them doing a session chez Saughton/Corton Vale, I bet he wished he had gone for a Mosely defence!!!!

So congratulations Mr Mason a good victory, though I have a feeling like Winnie, Margo and Jim your tenure in Westminster will be a short one, then again the Labour party has at the moment an ability commit every mistake in the book and with Mr Hutcheon on the prowl watch out!!!!
292

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25/07/2008 12:01:09
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N B,

25/07/2008 12:04:23
#314 Cuth

Most of the North sea oil fields are actually closer to Norway than Scotland. We got them because British teritiorial waters were deemed to be 200 miles surrounding each coastal point. If the fields were to be re-allocated on the disolution of the UK then Norway would have a claim on most of them. If the UK continued without Scotland then it is the UK that would own the rights to the oil fields.
294

,

25/07/2008 12:04:54
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,

25/07/2008 12:05:24
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walter,

25/07/2008 12:09:42
Just got of the phone to a friend of mine and he could not stop laughing.
His brother in law who is labour through and through and hates the SNP as much as he hates the Tories was moaning that he now has an SNP MP.
He has been complaining that after 13 years of scrounging from the state the government were going to make him go to work (legally as he has worked the last 5 years illegally and still claimed as being disabled) so he did not vote.
My mate told him if he does not use his vote then don't complain at what you get.
297

voltaire's janny,

25/07/2008 12:13:41
its dependence with no 'a' ya tard...
298

,

25/07/2008 12:14:32
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299

inkster,

25/07/2008 12:18:41
Shhh your hypothetical rhetoric trolls, FM is speaking on BBC News..."there are no safe seats for the Labour Party in Scotland" To Gordon Britannic Brown " No change in Policy, no job". Please Gordon stay we need you to hang on and continue to be dwarfed by the SNP.
300

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 12:19:37
#325 To try and portray this vote as a vote for independence is delusional to say the least.

This vote was about giving Labour and Gordon Brown the the kicking they deserved.

Nothing more.

Nothibng less.
301

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

25/07/2008 12:22:01
#317

N.B - All very well but the word Nazi also has its roots in the 'NAtionalsoZIalistische' movement. I can foresee problems if'n that political name gets used, even if they bear no relation to each other.
302

voltaire's janny,

25/07/2008 12:22:37
So AM2 despite such a result you think that it does not indicate anything at all about desire for independence?

Or you think that the triumphalism herein evident represents something dark afoot in Scotland?

We listen up; there are thousands upon thousands of Scots this morning with broad grins. The momentum to reverse the treaty of union must at the very least have grown with this result, no?

I am from the community (white, male, middle class, professional) that pays for everything with our taxes. You might expect me to be very wary of populist Nationalism and a lefter-than-leftie appeal to the demographic of Glesca's east end. We'll get to a proper balance of business friendliness, social conscience, regulated freemarket economy etc in good time. First of all though, control of our own destiny.

It's time.
303

N B,

25/07/2008 12:27:37
#329 Neal
It was Orwell who wrote, "Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception."
304

The Master,

No 32 on Nats' hatelist 25/07/2008 12:28:00
#325 Hawkeye: greetings, old chum! To turn your post around, I have to say (reluctantly) that people are warming to SNP government within the SP, which is a very different proposition to saying that they’re warming to the idea of independence.
305

N B,

25/07/2008 12:31:03
The SNP are a nationalist socialist party. They are populist and portray themselves as disestablishmentarianists; while infesting every aspect of the political estabilshment. History shows us that Nationalism mixed with populist socialism is a volatile cocktail.
306

Yeti,

25/07/2008 12:31:08
Looks like this is making news all over the world. From the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/europe/26britain.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
307

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 12:33:28
#328

Labour are being desperate to believe that this was a protest vote, poor deluded fools
308

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

25/07/2008 12:33:43
#331

N.B - As a political system I think I'm probably pro -National Socialism if I'm pro-politics at all.

The basic tenet of 'my country for my people' is one that could stand to be used in island of ours it's true . . .
309

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 12:34:46
is "N B" the new moniker of AM2?
310

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

25/07/2008 12:36:13
#333

NB - Volatile indeed. Just look at what happens when you put the words 'Labour' and 'New' together . . . absolute disaster!!
311

inkster,

25/07/2008 12:40:52
The voters of GE know that the SNP and John Mason in particular stand for an independent Scotland.

Margaret Curran has one speech and over the years it has kept her in comfort in the leafy suburbs of Glasgow. That old Keir Hardy polemic she learn as a teenager just doesn't cut it anymore.

She was trashed by people who don't want Gordon Brown or David Cameron.

It was a pro independence vote. Watch the odds tumble.





312

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 12:43:16
#320 N,B
So an independant Scotland would not have its borders recognised by the UK!!!!!
Here is a list of the North sea oil fields .Yes England /UK would claim some ,but by far the most would be in SCOTTISH NATIONAL WATERS. You could waffle b*ll*cks for the GB Olympic Team mate, Gold medal contender!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_and_gas_fields_of_the_North_Sea
The unionist are being shown for the ONE TRICK PONY they are. They want LabourToryLibDemLondon party to run Scotland and thats ALL. Apart from spreading doom and scare stories and cbvious b*ll*cks . BTW what country recently decided independance in Europe was a bad idea?.............I'm still waiting.
313

Nikostratos,

25/07/2008 12:44:53
Every silver lining has a cloud and as the result shows 43% voted for the pro-independence party and 51.5% voted for the pro-union parties on a 42.25% turnout less than the 48% for the last election.

So that 6% is most likely labour pro-union voters giving a grand total of 57.5% for the union and 43% for an independent Scotland.

And that after the snp flooded Glasgow east with activists a feat unlikely to be repeated with a nationwide ballot.

so stick that in ya pipe and smoke it yeah!
314

N B,

25/07/2008 12:45:48
#340

I suppose what I would like to see is a true single issue party that stands for Independence and nothing else. Conflation of the independence arguement and one political party's national socialist viewpoint does not further the debate.
315

N B,

25/07/2008 12:52:25
#342 Cuth

First of all, calm doon. Secondly I think the pragmatic approach to the independence debate is to ignore the oil, the North Sea fields have already passed peak production anyway. You shoukd assume that Scotland will get none of the current North Sea oil revenue or at most a pro-rata allocation. Then see if your arguement for indepence still stands, it might well do. But take the big shiny Golden Ball of massive oil wealth out of your pipe dream, it ain't going to happen.
316

inkster,

25/07/2008 12:52:42
we won and you lost so stick that in your pipe yeah (you prat)
317

mcmadmanreturns,

Saor Alba 25/07/2008 12:54:09
Nikostratos:

Nice try but wrong again. We are playing by the rules and the rules say the person with the most votes in fptp elections wins. You also can't count the non voting persons as supporting others than the successful candidate.

Do try to stop greetin some time today...

318

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 12:54:57
343
Remind me Niko, who won the seat last night?:-)
319

mcmadmanreturns,

Saor Alba 25/07/2008 12:55:51
#345

Broadly yes, except that a pro rata share of the oil fields would see 90% of current UK oil production pass to scotland. Billions of pounds a year of income to be invested, as per Norway, for our future.
320

Tyrone Shoulders 2nd version,

25/07/2008 12:56:35
326

I demand to be removed from the list!
321

inkster,

25/07/2008 12:58:16
344 dream on AM you will get 'the conflation' (oh dear) you're given ie on the battlefield 'not necessarily of your choice'. You had your chance for 300 years and loved it but you got complacent and blew it. Loser(s).
322

N B,

25/07/2008 13:00:01
#349

The pro-rata allocation would be based on population. Remember the UK currently owns the fields and it would be at their discretion how the split was done. What if the Shetlands stay part of the UK? Then Scotland would be have virtually no grounds to ask for any share at all.
323

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/07/2008 13:00:03
#343 Your desperate clutching at straws amuses us, and also tells us much about the "difference" between Labour and the Tories that you count their votes together as meaning the same thing. Keep it up!
324

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 13:00:20
#344 N B
"Conflation of the independence arguement and one political party's national socialist viewpoint does not further the debate."
You just do not give it a rest , WAFFLING B*LL*CKS .
The German Workers Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
was in fact a PSUEDO socialist party backed by big business. It stood for GREATER GERMAN NATIONALISM(BRITISH NATIONALISM) and NOT Bavarian ,Prussian or Rhineland nationalism. It was led by a Chancellor who was appointed to power NOT voted and they lied to thier parliment to start a war with Poland . This is more like the NuLabour experiment and Gordon Brown (shirt) to match his brown trousers.
#345 N B
I was the one pointing out that NONE of the new nations in Europe pump oil BUT they are still happy to be independant. Or are you FINALLY going to give 1 example of independance being a bad idea? It sYOU going on about OIL mate.....
325

Nikostratos,

25/07/2008 13:02:06
#348 conan

Oi! i said that i believed the snp would win the Glasgow east by election..ya just wasn't listening(put your hearing aid back in and put on your old nhs glasses )


#347

don't Britannia wave the rules or so I've been told
326

Conan the Librarian™,

25/07/2008 13:03:38
Seems to me there is "conflation" between NB and Highland Mighty...
327

Sunrise,

FIfe 25/07/2008 13:04:29
277: Rabbies Wee Bruthir

You misunderstand me.

Using Labours own standards, Margaret Curran is a superstar. Comparing her to what else is available to them she is good.
328

Brian Hill,

25/07/2008 13:05:02
The significance of this win is that it comes on top of SNP wins in Glasgow in the Holyrood elections...e.g. Nicola Sturgeon and in the Council elections last year. In other words, it demonstrates that the SNP have now permanently penetrated the impenetrable viz Glasgow.

Scotland will never gain Independence without Glasgow which has always been a drag on SNP progress over the decades. The tide is now turning in Glasgow. This is completely different from Govan in 73 and 88.

I was amazed yesterday at the degree of antagonism towards Labour from lifelong Labour Party supporters as they went to vote for us. As Alex Salmond says, this was a choice between the SNP Government in Holyrood and a Labour Government in London.

John Mason must now work his socks off for Glasgow East and Alex must continue to show an interest in the constituency. This will not only sew Glasgow East up for a decade or more it will deliver Glasgow itself into the Independence camp and take its place as leader of that move towards Independence. And if we are wise we will let it.

Great day, terrific night and another great day as the English Broadcasting Company's 24 hour newsprogramme is dominated with a capital D by the by election.
329

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 13:05:16
#338 I genuinely believe it is too early to make predictions about the consequences of this by-election. We have been here before

* 1967 - a 37.9% swing from Labour to the SNP in 1967 to win Hamilton
* 1973 - a 26.7% swing from Labour to the SNP to win Govan
* 1988 - a 33.1% swing from Labour to the SNP to win Govan
* 1994 - a 19.2% swing from Labour to the SNP to narrowly lose Monklands East
* 1999 - a 22.6% swing from Labour to the SNP to narrowly lose Hamilton South

As for my politics - I'm not a Lib Dem. Was a member of the Labour Party until Blair was elected leader. I could see then the direction Labour were heading in and I was not comfortable with it at all. The movement of Labour to the right has created a vacuum in Scottish and UK politics - there is no party for a voter like me - a non-Trotskyite, non-nationalist, democratic socialist. Many voters who are like me will have decided that the SNP is the best alternative - it ticks two out of those three boxes and they know they can vote against independence come a referendum.
330

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/07/2008 13:05:24
So here's a question - who's going to stand for the Scottish leadership of Labour now? The hot gossip says that Andy Kerr doesn't want the poisoned chalice and won't run. Curran surely can't now, as the woman who lost Glasgow East - Salmond would make mincemeat of such a lame duck. Iain Gray will probably never recover from his evisceration by Gordon Brewer on Newsnicht and would similarly crumble under pressure from Salmond.

Which seems to leave Cathy Jamieson as Labour's next leader in Scotland by default. The FM must think every day is his birthday at the moment...
331

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 13:05:44
343 - that is all very good and well - very academic and in the realms of conjecture .... the fact of the matter is that Labour got their backsides thoroughly trounced any which way you look at it ... I don't mind admitting that I am happy with being in partnership with England - I don't mind the union ... but the SNP are providing the ONLY alternative to labour and I like that better !
332

N B,

25/07/2008 13:05:51
#351

No offense intended Dave but you chaps in your remote outposts are a bigger draw on community funds than the sink estates! I defend and respect your right to live there, but thankful that the English tax payer is paying for it and not the Scots one.
333

N B,

25/07/2008 13:11:25
#355

How many of the countries going independent were leaving a Union with an economic powerhouse such as England? If Independence is the will of the people then so be it, but let us first look at what we would lose by doing so. I am afraid that half-truths and power-lust do not boil my tatties in the same way they do for you.
334

Brian Hill,

25/07/2008 13:11:59
Poor Nicostratis, his brain is flashing: SYSTEM OVERLOAD....SYSTEM OVERLOAD..... as he tries desperately to find some solace from this electoral disaster for the Unionists.

What does he fall back on??? Why, statistics of course. I can just see him and his unionist comrades going cross eyed trying to find something positive to say. Give up and join the SNP Nico.
335

Nikostratos,

25/07/2008 13:13:51
#354 Rev of the closed mind

They are both pro union parties the last time i looked

and as for straws i got plenty

http://www.barsupply.com/images/fat-straws.jpg



Oh and the saying is "every day is Christmas".get it right.......

336

inkster,

25/07/2008 13:13:54
The only things we would lose is our financial and territorial chains
337

The Master,

No 32 on Nats' hatelist 25/07/2008 13:14:08
#294 Nevsky: “Just to let everyone know it even made the Russian news and 'independence' was the core of the story and the rise of the SNP...hehehehe at least we are getting some international profile!”

About says it all that it’s the media in farflung lands who completely fail to understand that the British have a noble tradition of giving a bloody nose to the governing party at byelections and that votes tend to pile up behind whichever party is most capable of inflicting that defeat. No doubt the Russians are failing to mention that it was the Lib Dems who gave Labour a bloody nose in Fife most recently.
338

The Master,

25/07/2008 13:15:57
#366 Hawkeye: I'd like to sue you for every penny you haven't got for that one!
339

European Scot,

25/07/2008 13:17:05
NB

"The SNP are a nationalist socialist party. They are populist and portray themselves as disestablishmentarianists; while infesting every aspect of the political estabilshment. History shows us that Nationalism mixed with populist socialism is a volatile cocktail."

The SNP are a left of centre democratic party.
Your comments about a 'nationalist socialist party', and 'infesting every aspect of the political establishment,' is a rather nasty little effort on your part, to connect an open political party that believes in democracy, and the will of the people, with the fascists, with the Nazis of the past, through word association.
Goebbels would have approved of your use of language, trying to suggest, trying to imply, that a lie is the truth.
You are the one with the volatile cocktail, and quite a nasty little mixture it is too.
The SNP happens to believe in the future, and Independence of its country.
Just like millions of other people around the Free World.
The vast majority, believe in the freedom of their individual countries.
You just don't appear to be one of them.
340

Nikostratos,

25/07/2008 13:18:36
#368

It takes some finding Brian .but ya gotta try.ha ha

offski bye
341

N B,

25/07/2008 13:21:59
#373 DodgyDave

The population of the Western Isle is circa 25,000. With circa 50% of working age.

A ‘Wealth of the Nation 2003 Report’ reports Western Isles average household income at £23,400 for 2003 This represents a 5% increase from 2001, however, the Western Isles is ranked 3rd equal lowest out of 121 UK Postcode Areas. Only Dumfries and Truro are lower at £22,900 and £22,600.

Gross Value Added (GVA) is also a commonly used indicator of economic performance and forms the basis for GDP calculations (GDP = GVA + tax revenues – subsidies). The most recent GVA estimates put the Western Isles at 65% of the UK average, fourth equal lowest out of 23 areas in Scotland (2002). Again, this is a decline from the position in 2001. At the regional level, GVA in the Highlands & Islands is estimated to be 69% of the UK average.
342

N B,

25/07/2008 13:25:27
#375 EuropeanScot

Two question for you:

1) Are the SNP a Nationalist party?
2) Are the SNP a socialist party?
343

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 13:25:36
#365 N B
At least you are consistant.
More waffling b*ll*cks from N B.
100 BILLION POUNDS so far this year ,just to keep Londons Financial markets open? BTW the financial services inductries are moving to Asia, London is looking at a future of decreasing revenue.
In 2006 UK lost 34 BILLION POUNDS but Scotland either made money or broke even according to the government figures. Surely the UK is a non viable independant state? and how does the English taxpayer subsides the Western Highlands.Its the Highlands OIL ,at the momment THEY ARE SUBSIDISING YOU!! London is the biggest per head expenditure in the UK.
#367 N B
England economic power house?!?!?!? It looses money? Where do you get your economic information from?? The Labour and Unionist party office ,cbviously. They are proven liars. The EU is the BIGGEST economy on the planet. Better trade freely with them , and how would trade stop between England and Scotland after independance?
Still waiting for an example of a recently indepandant European country that want to return to dependance?
344

N B,

25/07/2008 13:27:40
#378 DodgyDave

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good arguement. You claimed the Western Isles was in effect a net contributor to the UK economy, I proved you wrong yet still you waffle on. See for yourself:

http://www.w-isles.gov.uk/factfile/socioeconomic200503.htm
345

N B,

25/07/2008 13:33:32
#380 Cuth

I would be all for Independence if there was any advantage to the country in going down this road. Without resorting to half-truths or speculation, why don't you try and convince me of the arguement for? Persuade me and the rest will follow...
346

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 13:34:18
#379 N B
"Two question for you:

1) Are the SNP a Nationalist party?
2) Are the SNP a socialist party?"

N B = Neverending B*ll*cks

Answer 1- a Scottish nationalist party yes . NOT British nationalist.
Answer 2- NO its a social democratic party ,but more left wing than NuLabour.
Please read about the German Workers Party and find how similar to NuLabour it is.
I am off to enjoy the weather and the weekend , all the best to all posters ,yes even you Neverending B*ll*cks
347

N B,

25/07/2008 13:36:46
#385

I think we are agreed that the SNP are a Nationalist Socialist party. If you accept this fact then many other things will start to make sense.
348

European Scot,

25/07/2008 13:38:16
379 NB

I'll answer you

The SNP are the Scottish National Party
The SNP are a left of centre democratic party.

Now you answer me
Does this little piece below suggest the above ?

"The SNP are a nationalist socialist party. They are populist and portray themselves as disestablishmentarianists; while infesting every aspect of the political estabilshment. History shows us that Nationalism mixed with populist socialism is a volatile cocktail."

Or could it be there was another little message ' hidden' away ?

Back later, off to lunch.
349

kimba,

25/07/2008 13:38:16
Funny how Gordon Brown announces that in future jobsseekers will have to work for their money,and Labour loses one of the most work shy places in Britain,curious!
350

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from earth's core 25/07/2008 13:39:04
#386 N B
last comment
Please read my posts ,I give references and I work in the maro economic financial industry. The union is NOT good for Scotland I do not know 1 independant business analyst that thinks it is good for Scotland.
Have a nice weekend
351

GM,

25/07/2008 13:41:16
@242

AM2 = Fail

yet again.
despite hundreds, if not thousands, of contribtions from you here, the SNP have won.

Shades of May 2007?
Are you going to resign again?
Are you going to maintain that broken record of yours re: stats, polls, spin, lies and obfuscation?
Are you going to ever accept that Scotland certainly seems to be heading for independence?
Are you going to work within that new framework or simply work against it?
352

N B,

25/07/2008 13:41:22
#388 DodgyDave

We will try this one more time.

Gross Value Added (GVA) is also a commonly used indicator of economic performance and forms the basis for GDP calculations (GDP = GVA + tax revenues – subsidies). The most recent GVA estimates put the Western Isles at 65% of the UK average, fourth equal lowest out of 23 areas in Scotland (2002). Again, this is a decline from the position in 2001. At the regional level, GVA in the Highlands & Islands is estimated to be 69% of the UK average.

In simple terms, you Western Isles types have your hand in the till of the British Exchequer, subsidised to the gills!

353

theburnschap,

The Broch 25/07/2008 13:43:18
@ 353 NB

I think you'll find that your population concept is a pro-unionist myth.

The UN Covention on the Law of the Sea stipulates a lot of information on territorial waters, internal waters and an aspect called and Exclusive Economic Zone.

Generally a state's EEZ extends to a distance of 200 nautical miles (370 km) out from its coast. The exception to this rule occurs when EEZs would overlap; that is, state coastal baselines are less than 400 nautical miles apart. When an overlap occurs, it is up to the states to delineate the actual boundary, which is what we did with Norway.

And your point about Shetland is true, if it were to have independent status as a country. But as it is, it comes under the sphere of influence of the Scottish Parliament (unless you can correct me) and therefore is part of the country called Scotland under the Scotland Act 1998.

As such I suspect that upon independence, as stated by a few posters on here already, roughly 90% of the oil fields would lie in the Scottish EEZ. And even with a limited lifespan of production at over $100 a barrel, that is a significant amount of revenue for a country that the pro-unionists would have us all believe can't stand on its own two feet.
354

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 25/07/2008 13:44:13
How honest of AM2(242)to admit that there are times when he is apt to sully a thread, keep it up AM2.

As for the rest, same old sour grapes,lies,etc as before, here is hoping that they go on in the same way for a long time, it really helps the Nat cause, you think it would have dawned on them by now that insulting the folk that they actually want to go out and vote for their parties doesn't help..........but
thankfully no!

I wonder if the penny will ever drop that it is not enough to tell people who they shouldn't vote for,you also have to have the courage to give an opinion on who you think they should vote for, but again thankfully, most of the unionist 'experts' who come on here don't seme to want to do that.

It sets a great example.
355

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 25/07/2008 13:45:52
#386 N B
REALLY last comment
Please convince me otherwise. I am still waiting for 1 European country that would hand its indepandance back . I will even let you use countries like Holland or Austria ,why don;t they unite with Germany . The Baltic states or Finland unite with Russia etc etc etc ....
Have a REALLY nice weekend
356

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 13:46:09
"381 Hawkeye the Noo,25/07/2008 13:25:44

I am against uniformity, as it were, and believe in the celebration of diversity, also extending that to the diversity that exists within nations."

I'd go along with that but would argue that independence is not the only route that can achieve that goal. I support a very decentralised form of federalism that I believe could achieve that aim. A step in the right direction would be full fiscal autonomy - something I do believe the Nats could support as well.

There are one set of circumstances where I could see myself voting for independence. A simple yes-no vote goes ahead in 2010 (or some other date). The No campaign indicates that if they win it will mean no further dentralisation of power. Then, and only then, would I vote yes in a referendum.
357

The Master,

No 32 on Nats' hatelist 25/07/2008 13:47:51
#384 Hawkeye: the frost will be turned right up again when the SNP proceed with that referendum question of theirs about “opening negotiations with a view to independence”. Talk about p*ssy footing around something!
358

N B,

25/07/2008 13:47:55
#395

"it is up to the states to delineate the actual boundary, which is what we did with Norway."

THe UK agreed this delineation with Norway. Therefore the oil belongs to the UK. If the UK no longer exists the agreement is null and void. If the UK still exists it is their oil. What I say to you is that you should not make your case for independence on a false premise.
359

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 13:48:10
#387 "Answer 2- NO its a social democratic party ,but more left wing than NuLabour."

Ghengis Khan would be more left-wing than NuLabour . . .
360

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 25/07/2008 13:49:36
391, well done kimba keep it up, that kind of comment will soon have Glasgow East back in the Labour fold.

A challenge to all you other unionists, which of you agree with Kimba and which of you don't?

I can give you about an hour to make your minds up.
361

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 25/07/2008 13:51:05
N B has written that the North Sea oil fields will be allocated in relation to population of Scotland vis-a-vis the UK. What complete tripe. The North Sea will be demarcated in accordance with the international conventions relating to the continental shelf. The boundary is determined by relation to the nearest land fall at low tide. Currently the England/Scotland border is fixed as due east of Berwick upon Tweed. This is not the appropriate division. It will run in a slightly north easterly direction as the England landmass lies generally further to the east than the Lothian, Fife & Angus land mass.

As for Shetland, I do not believe there is an interest in autonomy there and they consider themselves as Scots. Their dialect is not much different from that of Aberdeenshire.
362

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 13:52:49
#403 kimba's views are irrelevant - apart from being nominally an English Democrat, she also spouts a pile o' keech.
363

N B,

25/07/2008 13:53:30
#399 DodgyDave

You know and I know that the Western Isles are subsidised to the gills by the English tax payer, you should be more grateful. Bite the hand that feeds you if you will, but beware of the consequences...
364

kimba,

25/07/2008 13:53:44
403. Is it not true that Glasgow East has one of the highest rates of people claiming jodseekers allowance AND incapacity benefit!
365

kimba,

25/07/2008 13:56:11
405. At least i speak the truth, you are nothing but a billious troll.
366

Paula,

25/07/2008 13:56:58
Was this to do with the fact that some of the work shy in Glasgow East got a fright at Labour poking at them with a stick to get working?

I was surprised the SSP or Solidarity didn't win and am disappointed that Labour were 2nd. It would have been brilliant had they been 4th or 5th.

Margaret Curran always appears very bitter and shrewish especially in interviews. As do all Labour female politicians actually.
367

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 13:57:08
Perhaps the Labourtories should send for a priest to read the last rites?

But does anyone know of a pro Trident, abortion supporting, war mongering, and supporter of high tax for the poorest paid priest?

Where is David Cairns when they need him most?

Oh! wasn’t he in charge of the Curran losing campaign?

Obviously Mr Cairns is in line for promotion in the imminent Westmonster cabinet re-shuffle.
368

kimba,

25/07/2008 13:58:14
410. You arrogant gomper!
369

N B,

25/07/2008 13:58:30
#404

As I say to the others, put your case for independence without the UK oil. Simple fact is that most of the oil is nearer Norway than Scotland(inlcluding the Shetlands). The delination agreement exists between Norway and the UK. No agreement exists between Scotland and Norway, if you apply the law you quoted, Norway would get the fields when the current UK/Norway agreement is terminated.
370

Paula,

25/07/2008 13:58:57
Dave from Barra, people like NB exist just to wind others up. It is all they have in their lives and the best thing to do is ignore them. They are poor little people and should be pitied.
371

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 13:59:05
#404 My understanding is that the SNP's policy is that if Orkney and Shetland did want independence they would not stand in their way. But, as you point out, there has never been even a strong autonomy movement in those isles - the last candidate who stood for Shetalnd and Orkney autonomy was in the 1987 election.
372

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 14:00:16
kimba - aw'a and bile yir heid.
373

theburnschap,

The Broch 25/07/2008 14:01:41
@401

Using that same argument, the UK would cease to exist in the same state as it did when it entered the agreement. So the Union that still existed would have no influence over an agreement that ceased to exist. As would any legislation and agreements that the current UK have.

I suppose you are also a believer that an independent Scotland would have to apply for entry into the EU, but the Union of England, Wales and NI wouldn't.

But you didn't answer the point on the EEZs - Would this implementation of UNCLOS 2 be incorrect? Would Scotland not be in control of the 200 mile EEZ coming from the coastal perimeter of Scotland?
374

N B,

25/07/2008 14:02:46
#415 Paula

I think it is you that is posting attention seeking drivel trying to become part of an otherwise lively debate.
375

ThomasP,

25/07/2008 14:05:04
#414

You are correct. According to the UN Law about sea resources Norway has the right to claim part of our Oil/Gas fields.

However, they didn't because in the water there is an incredibly deep hole that drilling pipes can not be used from Norways side to reach their resources.

Norway allowed Britain to take her resources because they can not reach it effectivly for it to make money.

The same would be done for Scotland since Norway can not reach the resources from their own territory.
376

N B,

25/07/2008 14:07:12
#418 What about Norway's 200 mile perimeter? The arguement would be that they have given up 40 years of peak oil so they would be able to assert their rights in a new agreement.
377

kimba,

25/07/2008 14:07:17
417. Bring it on,my little haggis to==er
378

The Master,

No 32 on Nats' hitlist 25/07/2008 14:09:58
#403 ochone: hope life’s treating you well. Let’s just say that I’d agree with kimba when having a laugh with some mates, but it’s a typical “Alf Garnett” type in that it contains a great deal of truth if you don’t intellectualise it too much. Hope this helps!
379

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/07/2008 14:11:19
I think this is a sign that Labour are losing their sheep. The flock is in rebellion, they want a new shepherd
380

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 25/07/2008 14:11:48
Once again NB does not understand international law. It does not require agreement between the UK and Norway. The demarcation of sea boundaries is determined by international convention. Disputes are settled by international arbitration. The border is determined purely in relation to the nearest landfall. There are further rules reagarding isolated rocks which are not able to sustain habitation.
381

kimba,

25/07/2008 14:13:43
419. Dave,the day England needs "LOOKING AFTER" by a bunch of haggis throwing trolls,is the day when world war three has obliterated most of the civilised world! As England or should i say Westminster provides most of Scotlands money, that is a gompering thing to say!
382

N B,

25/07/2008 14:16:00
#426 Huntly

But many of the major fields are closer to Norway, therefore on the termination of the Uk/Norway delineation agreement, Norway automatically gets most of the oil. It may lease the field to British companies but it will be their oil. Or the UK/Norway agreement is left in force, therefore it would be the UK's oil.
383

Paula,

25/07/2008 14:17:55
#420 That would be the lively debate where you are being proven wrong time and time again.

Glad to see I touched a nerve though.

Also the majority of English do not have this narrow-minded nonsensical view shown on here, if they did there wouldn't be so many wanting to move here. In fact they have other things to worry about other than us up here.
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kimba,

25/07/2008 14:18:56
424. OK,you can "intellectualise" it till the cows come home, but the majority of people in Glasgow East are in receipt of jobseekers allowance or incapacity benefit,FACT!
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N B,

25/07/2008 14:19:00
#429 DodgyDave

The people of the Western Isles are Picts not Celts.
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theburnschap,

The Broch 25/07/2008 14:19:17
@422

I think that has been adequately answered by ThomasP. And I would have no problem with Norway asserting her rights over her resources - but your previous postings seem to be against an independent Scotland being able to assert her rights.......

Any chance you'll answer the questions rather than posing new ones?
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N B,

25/07/2008 14:21:18
#430 Paula

I was just pointing out your attention seeking drivel, nothing more.
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kimba,

25/07/2008 14:21:48
429. Christ,you really are a gompering nut!
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Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 25/07/2008 14:21:55
Another common misunderstanding concerns treaties entered into by the UK. An independent Scotland and the remaining part of the UK would BOTH continue to be subject to existing treaties until such treaties are renegotiated.
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25/07/2008 14:22:20
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 14:23:13
#432 Wrong NB - the Western Isles are Norse-Celtic. the Confederation of the Picts centred on Fortriu never extended as far as the Western Isles.
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ThomasP,

25/07/2008 14:23:22
428 N B

There is a reason for why Norway has allowed Britain to take part of their Oil/Gas Fields.

If they can not reach it then why allow the resources to sit under the sea?

Your just scaremongering.
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Paula,

25/07/2008 14:24:00
#434 I love you too.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/07/2008 14:25:37
#437 The nationalist counterpart to kimba surfaces from his sewer . . .
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