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Holyrood and Westminster at war over oil and taxes



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Published Date: 30 May 2008
BIG guns were wheeled out yesterday in the battle over independence: their ammunition – oil and taxes. It is a battle that has been building for 21 years, ever since two Scots, then aged 33 and 32, entered the House of Commons as young and inexperienced MPs on the same day in June 1987. Yesterday, they clashed, not just as Scottish MPs from rival parties but as politicians at the height of their powers.
Alistair Darling, the Chancellor and Gordon Brown's closest political ally, was one; Alex Salmond, the First Minister and leader of Scotland's first Nationalist administration, was the other.

Mr Darling was first into the fray, using an interview with The Scotsman to launch his most sustained, detailed attack to date on the SNP's flagship policy of local income tax.

He didn't stop there. He also dismissed the SNP's call for oil tax revenues to be distributed to Scotland and for a "fuel tax regulator" to limit the rising price of fuel.

Within half an hour, Mr Salmond was on his feet at Holyrood, telling of the "fury" in Scotland over the UK government's refusal to use its oil-tax windfall to help families and companies cope with crippling fuel prices.

"A massive national outrage" was how he described Scotland's position as one of the world's top oil producers but with nothing to show from the massive extra revenues being generated as a result of rising prices.

Yesterday's clash showed how central the arguments over oil have become to the future, both of the government in Westminster and of the Union itself.

Faced with fuel protests in London, anger over rising domestic fuel prices and an economy under severe strain, the Chancellor knows the Labour government's hold is precarious.

The First Minister knows that, too, but he also suffers from the frustration of watching billions in extra revenue, which he believes should flow straight into Scottish coffers, propping up his political opponents in London.

Mr Salmond has had a fairly easy first year as First Minister – but a tough past week. For the first time, he has appeared on the defensive as experts and political opponents have undermined flagship policies on local income tax, the Scottish Futures Trust and his pledge to cut early-years class sizes.

It was in that context that yesterday's war of words took place.

The Chancellor was adamant: the SNP's "sums do not add up" and local income tax would be a "massive mistake". He went on to claim that, despite its claims to be waiting for answers from the Treasury, the Scottish Government was "refusing to talk" to the UK government.

Mr Salmond was equally clear about what he regarded as a betrayal by the UK government of Scotland's interests.

"I believe that we must, as a parliament and as a country, make a claim on the huge additional resources flowing into the United Kingdom Treasury as a result of sky-high fuel prices. That must be done, because that is where the financial flexibility is available to meet the pressures," he said.

Until now, the Scottish Government has isolated a number of issues, such as firearms legislation and control over fishing negotiations, as issues of contention.

Yesterday's decision to challenge the UK government so directly over oil showed that Mr Salmond is now prepared to put this issue right at the heart of his fight with ministers in London.

For the Chancellor, his intervention on the SNP's tax plans represents a clear signal of the determination of the UK Labour Party to take on the Nationalists on their own ground.

>BULLETS
'Daft tax that will damage Scots on world stage'

ALISTAIR Darling yesterday warned the SNP's plans for a local income tax (LIT) would be "a disaster" for Scotland's vital financial services industry.

The Chancellor argued that the Nationalists' tax plans would act as a deterrent for Scottish firms trying to attract high-flying business executives north of the Border.

Mr Darling also maintained that Alex Salmond's government had not approached the Treasury to seek to use Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to introduce the tax.

Last night, Mr Salmond would only say that his administration was "in the process" of discussing the move with the Treasury.

The Chancellor's broadside – ahead of a meeting with leaders of Scotland banks, insurance houses and investment businesses today – signals an intensification of Labour's anti-SNP rhetoric.

Mr Darling, who has been under attack over everything from possible fuel duty hikes to threats by firms to leave the UK due to higher taxation, attempted to throw the focus back on the Scottish Government.

He said: "Local income tax would be a disaster for the financial services industry.

"If we are going to attract the best to come to and remain in Scotland, to tell them that you are going to be paying more income tax would be the completely wrong thing to do."

The Chancellor added: "I meet the Scottish industry a lot and it's the first thing they mention. They are concerned by this proposal.

"In terms of the analysts, the experts, the people who make this industry work, if you start losing these people who say, 'I think I'll go and work in London or another part of the world', that would be hugely damaging. That is why the industry is so exercised about it."

Executives in banks and insurance companies have remained silent in public on the issue, but Mr Darling's remarks are sure to strike a chord with them. Senior figures in the financial services industry – which accounts for around 7 per cent of Scotland's GDP and employs 86,000 people – have grave reservations over LIT.

Mr Darling refused to be drawn on reports that the Treasury believes the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to introduce LIT. He said: "There are lots of arguments as to whether it is legal or not. Our criticism is that I don't think it's workable. Scotland would lose out if we had a higher rate of income tax."

He added: "At a time around the world when, frankly, all governments are under pressure to reduce headline rates of tax, to be travelling in the wrong direction here is just daft.

"It is not just a UK argument, this is argument people all over the world will be looking at it. I think Alex Salmond and his colleagues should just put their hands up and say, 'Yes, we made a mistake, let's just abandon this', because it would be completely damaging."

Mr Darling also claimed that the SNP was not talking to the Treasury, which controls HMRC, over the issue.

He said: "To be blunt about it, the Nationalists are refusing to talk to us about it. If they thought this (policy] was a goer, you would have thought they would open up with us and say, 'Can we use the HMRC computer systems' but they have not done it."

Yesterday, the First Minister refused to go into detail on contacts between the Scottish Government and Whitehall.

Asked specifically about the issue, he told The Scotsman: "We are always raising issues and sometimes we get an answer, sometimes we don't. We are happy to discuss it. We are in the process at the present moment. We have a set of proposals."

Mr Salmond maintained: "We wouldn't introduce a taxation that would deal a blow to the competitive base of any industries in Scotland."

'Outrage' of soaring fuel prices in oil-rich Scotland

THE impact of rising fuel prices was yesterday branded a "massive national outrage" by Alex Salmond, who called on Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, to use some of his oil tax windfall to cushion the blow of high fuel prices in Scotland.

The First Minister said Scotland had been left in an "extraordinary position" with soaring prices at the pumps while every other oil producer in the world was benefiting from increasing revenues.

Mr Salmond told MSPs that the UK Treasury was expected to reap an additional £4 billion in North Sea revenues – on top of the £10 billion predicted from initial forecasts.

"There seems to be plenty of room for manoeuvre in order to implement some of the policies to reduce the impact of sky-high fuel prices on the people and industry of Scotland," Mr Salmond said during First Minister's Questions.

The SNP has been basing its demand for Scottish independence on oil for the last 30 years, but recent price hikes, which put oil at $130 a barrel yesterday, have given the Nationalists added impetus.

The price of oil has increased the amount of money going to the UK Treasury in tax – revenue which Mr Salmond believes should be coming to Scotland.

The subject of oil was raised in the Scottish Parliament by SNP MSP Jamie Hepburn, who claimed it was a "bittersweet irony" that Scots were missing out on increasing oil and gas revenues in the North Sea. Mr Salmond replied: "I think the mood actually is becoming one of fury in Scotland.

"That we alone among the oil producers of the world, producing ten times – ten times – our consumption of hydrocarbons at the moment, should be faced with an extraordinary position that while every oil producer, through sovereign funds and the build-up of huge sums of capital, has the resources available to power their economy into the future, what's left for the people of Scotland is paying sky-high prices at the pumps and the industries of Scotland facing escalating costs.

"A bittersweet irony? A massive national outrage – and it's time we did something about it."

Mr Salmond added: "I believe that we must, as a parliament and as a country, make a claim on the huge additional resources flowing into the United Kingdom Treasury as a result of sky-high fuel prices."

The SNP's plan for the first 100 days in government included a commitment to put in a formal demand for a share of oil revenues to come to Scotland. That was done in a low-key and largely symbolic fashion last summer and since then John Swinney, the finance secretary, has written to Mr Darling asking for oil and gas revenues to be transferred. He has yet to receive a reply.

This, though, is the first time Mr Salmond has used the public platform of First Minister's Questions to launch such a co-ordinated and acrimonious attack on the UK government over the issue.

The SNP wants Downing Street to introduce a fuel duty regulator which would use the increasing revenues from VAT to reduce the duty itself, helping the consumer.

This has secured limited support from a small number of Labour MPs, but not from the UK government.

Mr Salmond has often used Norway as an example, principally because the Norwegian government set up an oil fund ten years ago, saving oil revenues. The fund is now worth £170 billion.

But the Norwegians also pay the most in Europe for petrol, at £1.21 a litre, just ahead of the Dutch, who pay about £1.20. The average price in Britain is about £1.14 a litre.

However, yesterday's assault showed Mr Salmond is prepared to pick a fight with Gordon Brown and Mr Darling on an issue which is not only reserved to Westminster, but is central both to the UK economy and the case for Scottish independence.

No place for Brigadoon or Braveheart in the global economy

Scotland's financial sector must roll with the punches, reports Martyn McLaughlin

IF GOOD old Scottish prudence is to prove the buoy which keeps afloat the nation's financial services industry at a time when the tide of the global economy is turning, there can be no better example than Andy Hornby's last-minute decision to rename the title of his address to the country's key financial movers and shakers.

Having taken stock of the current economic climate, the 40-year-old chief executive of HBOS took his speech, initially branded "A Global Success Story," and amended it to "Delivering in a Tough World".

"We are," Mr Hornby confirmed to no-one's surprise at the inaugural Global Financial Services Conference (GFSC) yesterday, "in tough times."

Having started out as a squeeze before turning into a slump, the subprime mortgage troubles have, ten months on, accelerated into a full-blown international crisis. The blame may lie largely with US institutions, but Scotland's 300-year-old financial services sector is not immune from the fallout.

It is a frustrating situation, but one which Mr Hornby and his competitors yesterday sought to overcome. Held at the Edinburgh International Conference Centre, the GFSC gathered a spectrum of economists, senior officials, and academics to navigate a safe course through choppy waters.

Mr Hornby was optimistic, a feeling echoed by his colleagues in the industry. "We have to wait until well into 2009 for the return to what we might call a sense of normality," he said.

Caledonia, it transpired, had much to be proud of, traits which could help the sector roll with the punches.

"Scotland is a very successful brand, but it needs careful management and branding," said David Nicol, chief administrative officer of Morgan Stanley.

Dr Ken Lyall, chair of Walter Scott & Partners Limited offered a more offbeat take. "The Brigadoon and Braveheart image served to differentiate us in the 1980s. We exploited it ruthlessly," he said. "But as we developed, that kind of idea was marginalised. We're now operating in a global world."

Petrol 41p a litre without taxes

BRITAIN would have the second cheapest petrol and diesel in the European Union if government duty and VAT were removed, figures revealed yesterday.

Without the taxes, petrol would be 41.2p a litre and diesel 48.8p a litre.

Petrol costs around £1.14 a litre at the pumps and diesel £1.26 – provoking hauliers to demand a 25p per litre cut.

A 62 per cent tax share on unleaded was the third-highest out of all EU member states, the quarterly Energy Trends and Prices statistics produced by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform revealed.

Philip Hammond, the Tory shadow Treasury minister, said: "Gordon Brown's claim that world oil prices are to blame for the soaring cost of motoring has been exposed as a sham."

He also attacked controversial plans to restructure vehicle excise duty, which could see drivers of less efficient older cars facing a big tax hike next year.

A Treasury spokesman insisted that the UK was generally a low-tax economy compared with other EU states.

BA prices begin to take off

BRITISH Airways is to hike the price of tickets as a result of the oil crisis – with holidaymakers and business passengers flying long-haul hardest hit.

The airline will increase its fuel surcharge by £60 from Tuesday on return flights lasting more than nine hours. Short-haul return flights will go up £6 while long-haul trips lasting under nine hours will increase by £30.

The move means passengers will pay from £32 to £218 in fuel duties on a BA return ticket.

BA said it would also increase its fuel surcharges by similar levels in markets outside the UK.

On Wednesday Sir Richard Branson's airline Virgin Atlantic announced fuel surcharge rises, although the carrier said that those sitting at the front of the aircraft would face higher charges than those in economy-class seats at the back.

In recent weeks airlines have announced cutbacks in services because of the sky-high oil prices while some carriers, including some operating between the UK and the United States, have gone out of business.

£225m plan for elderly

FURTHER details on how £225 million of funds being provided by energy companies will be used to help pensioners living in fuel poverty are due to be announced at Westminster today.

The government is to provide the firms with personal details of people claiming pension credits so they can receive fuel rebates and energy-saving grants to keep their homes warmer.

The move comes as Stephen Ladyman, a former Labour transport minister, called on Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, to "strike a new deal with the motoring public" and cut the tax on fuel when prices at the pumps are being driven up by global oil prices.

Mr Ladyman said a system akin to the "fuel duty regulator" proposed by the SNP should be introduced. This would return any increased VAT revenue received by the government from higher fuel prices into a cut in the fuel duty paid at the pumps – currently 50.3p a litre.

He said motorists were more likely to ditch Labour than give up their cars.

The full article contains 2835 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Richardinho,

30/05/2008 00:14:46
Alex Salmond is right; we are being shafted.
2

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 30/05/2008 00:19:23
Most people on Skye heat their homes with oil. It has trebled in price in the lasy year. People are leaving because they can't afford to heat their homes. People will die this winter.

Petrol costs a fortune and food is much more expensive than in the cities. No Aldi or frozen food stores here.

Rural Scotland is facing a disaster and we, the 12th biggest oil producer in the world, are powerless to do anything about it.

Why any Scot does not support independence God only knows. It is an outrage what is happening.
3

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 00:21:34
Spot the odd one out.

Its Wale's coal.

Its Lancashire's industrial revolution

Its London's financial markets.

Its Scotland's oil.


Yes, All have contributed to UK prosperity over the last 300 years but only one has been claimed as uniquely owned by the area in which it originates.

Selfish aren't we
4

M.T.,

30/05/2008 00:22:06
"BRITAIN would have the second cheapest petrol and diesel in the European Union if government duty and VAT were removed, figures revealed yesterday."

Cannot see Gordon Brown reduce taxes because he needs the revenue.

Businesses are rapidly going to the wall, particularly small businesses. House builders are only building housing estates they are already working on but not starting any new projects. This has a knock on effect. The confidence in the country is lower than I have ever seen.

If Gordon Brown does not reduce the tax on fuel then he must find a way to regenerate business, and soon.
5

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/05/2008 00:22:32
In the midst of this major crisis, magnified for Scotland, ALL political parties at Holyrood should be fighting Scotland's corner. Not just the SNP. This issue is much bigger than party political point-scoring.
6

Jimmy the Pie,

30/05/2008 00:23:31
What is really sad is the Scots who still want to be tied to the UK.

Who vote New Labour Sleaze and Corruption whatever they do to Scotland.

Just look at the last 10 years.

No more.

snp.org
7

Nikostratos,

30/05/2008 00:28:51
"fury" "A massive national outrage"

There Goes the First Minster again trying to stoke up anger and rage amongst the Scottish peoples.


'Can we use the HMRC computer systems' but they have not done it."

The snp have been saying the Government was refusing to let them use the system. And now it turns out that's not true or as most people would call it the snp 'lied'.

Why don't they just bring forward their silly little referendum Nicky said they would win easily so do it.

"the first time, he has appeared on the defensive"

Yep with power comes responsibility and Ole Alex and the snp are gonna be held responsible.......

8

Al Ford,

Insch 30/05/2008 00:30:38
As for Mr Salmond's reference at FMQs to the gravely anomalous position that Scotland is in whereby it is susceptible to being seriously harmed by the steeply rising cost of fuel without being able to reap the benefits of enhanced revenues, the people may well be willing to give the FM a hearing on this subject when we see the industrial and infrastructure fabric of Scotland being damaged because we are deprived of the means to do something about it. The serious problems which the rapidly rising price of a barrel of crude oil is beginning to cause in Scotland have every chance of being bitterly resented here as the Scottish Government hammers home the message that the rising price of this commodity could and should be to our advantage.

If the UK government remains unwilling to concede that power over oil revenues can be devolved, as it is elsewhere in the world, then the choice before Scotland, as the SNP will, of course, quite properly lose no opportunity to explain, will be: stay in the UK and watch the industrial and infrastructure fabric of Scotland be destroyed or opt for independence and economic salvation.

The oil-price crisis is not only an economic one. It is a constitutional one too. The nearer the price of a barrel of crude oil gets to the 200-dollar mark the more serious both aspects of the crisis will become.

At a certain point, when it dawns on the population as a whole that what we are faced with is so monumentally serious as to require us to rethink our whole attitude to the constitutional future of Scotland, a UK general election and an independence referendum will be at hand to allow us to give expression to any change of attitude which may conceivably occur.
9

Allan(handofgod137),

30/05/2008 00:30:49
Just a wee question here, if Scotland votes for independence, and the Orcadians and Shetlanders decide they'de rather go back to being Norwegian, and taking the oil with them, as our claim on it is based on their geographical position, how happy about this would you nats be?
10

Jimmy the Pie,

30/05/2008 00:31:46
Niko

You really are full of the smelly stuff, aren't you?
11

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 30/05/2008 00:35:41
Allan

There is no independence movement in Orkney and Shetland. They are part of Scotland and proud Scots. I hope noone else responds to his comment.
12

Resolutions,

30/05/2008 00:36:40
Bluntly the tax on fuel is making it so expensive that the country cannot be competitive with its exports, cannot attract tourists - a major industry, cannot get food, even local food to the shops, and as a result is being crippled by Westminster and Westminster alone.

Is this being selfish? No its an attempt at sel-preservation.
13

Resolutions,

30/05/2008 00:38:07
Allan - not all the oil is in the Northern Isles section by any means!
14

,

30/05/2008 00:40:18
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15

walter,

30/05/2008 00:40:56
Correct me if I am wrong and I am sure that if I am I will be corrected but do the North sea oil fields not lie in UK waters.
16

,

30/05/2008 00:41:15
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17

,

30/05/2008 00:42:23
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18

Conan the Librarian™,

30/05/2008 00:45:05
10
Please Jimmy, Niko is "special" and needs encouraging comments.
His abuse of elipsis is merely him being dotty.
19

,

30/05/2008 00:46:40
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20

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/05/2008 00:46:48
7 Nikostratos

Yes, there is outrage if you speak to people in Scotland. It is a major crisis. Why, as usual, did you take the opportunity to political point-score? Why don't you stand up for the people of Scotland for a change?
21

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 30/05/2008 00:47:14
The higher the price of fuel becomes the louder the claim for Scottish Independence becomes.

Go Brown!!!
22

Conan the Librarian™,

30/05/2008 00:47:24
14
Hey bird, went for the beer;-)
23

,

30/05/2008 00:48:40
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24

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 00:50:47
And who shares the major portion of the blame for high fuel prices? The New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, that's who. Their tax on fuel is nearly 70% of the pump price, and their greed is never ending. They even want to punish motorists further by upping the road tax, retrospectively, on most cars.

Maggie Broon may well come out with the bulldust that it is an international problem and that oil is now $135 a barrel, but the fact remains that countries like America only pay about £2 a gallon, or about 53p per litre. The Australians pay around 66p a litre. The fact that I have to pay in excess of £1.40 a litre is due solely to Maggie Broon's excessive tax on fuel.

It is a case of tax, tax and more tax, direct, indirect and stealth taxes. And what are they doing with all this money they are stealing from the public; other than funding illegal wars and lining their own pockets with their dodgy expenses claims?

The point also remains that an independent Scotland would not be having its resources stolen from them and exploited by a foreign government to subsidise a foreign country. Those Scots who support the Union are no better than the ones that sold us out in 1707. They are a Parcel of Rogues and traitors that are bought and sold for English gold.


25

,

30/05/2008 00:52:21
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26

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 00:52:46
#20 Andrew. Why would he stand up for the Scottish people? He is not Scottish.
27

Sanny,

30/05/2008 00:53:21
15 walter
You stand corrected Walter! The majority of the North Sea oil reserves are in SCOTTISH waters. This question has long been dealt with in the European Council.

28

,

30/05/2008 00:54:28
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29

Conan the Librarian™,

30/05/2008 00:56:18
Guga
I wonder how much money it takes for our highly trained soldiers to wander about London, dressed in red coats, with a bit of an endangered animal on their heid?
30

,

30/05/2008 00:56:23
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31

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/05/2008 00:56:43
Guga II

I stand corrected. That makes his comments even more outrageous though.
32

walter,

30/05/2008 00:57:41
#27
Are you saying that although Scotland is part of the UK Scottish waters are not.
33

Harry Shanks,

Rutherglen 30/05/2008 01:00:08
Correct me if I'm wrong, - when Alex Salmond was elected as FM did he not pledge to act -

"Wholly and exclusively in the interests of the people of Scotland"?

This is EXACTLY what he is doing on this issue and since the Wendy crew seem to expend a trememdous amount of time (and wind) blethering about people keeping their promises, I look forward enormously to
them backing Alex to the hilt!

Aye right!
34

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:01:43
Its a complete and utter disgrace that Scotland has been fleeced these past 30 odd years over Oil revenues
The only country in the world that is the 12th largest producer, yet does not benifit or receive any revenue from its oil wealth!
Compare this with the Provinces of Alberta and Newfoundland & Labrador in Canada they receive directly revenue from Oil, in fact Labrador were in volved in direct negotiations regarding revenues with the oil companies. The provinces also give a slice to the Federal Government in Canada.
The people of Scotland really should waken themselves up and realise how they are being shafted by successive Westminster governments. Scotland's Oil to them is the gift that keeps on giving
35

,

30/05/2008 01:02:14
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36

Royster,

30/05/2008 01:03:09
The high oil price - which isn't so high if you factor in the strength of sterling - is due to speculators using it as a hedge against inflation and a weak US dollar. It is also a play on the growing economies of China and India (as it is not so easy to invest there directly). If Chinese growth slows, or the Chinese let their currency float, and inflation does not take hold in the US then the oil price could collapse. Of course taxes are too high but that is always the case with Labour and the SNP would be no better here. How many years was Scotland supported by England when the oil price was not so high and? What goes up must come down.
37

Royster,

30/05/2008 01:04:16
#35. Still UK territorial waters. I think you are referring to law used mainly for contractual disputes.
38

,

30/05/2008 01:04:17
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39

,

30/05/2008 01:06:46
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40

,

30/05/2008 01:07:33
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/05/2008 01:08:59
36
Royster
By your comment "Scotland supported by England",
You seem to suggest that Scotland is now supporting England?
42

,

30/05/2008 01:09:18
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43

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:09:38
#32 Walter
If the uk was equitable in dealing with Oil revenues, it would have ensured from day one that Scotland received a sizable chunk of the revenues in recognition that the oil is in Scottish waters
It is after all a Scottish resource, like Hydro or coal, but Westminster saw this as a valuable cash cow that could finance projects in England. Scotland were never considered. An example of the duplicity of succeive Westminster governments is the now infamour McRone report of the 70's which was made top secret at the time and only recently released
44

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:13:02
If the uk was equitable in dealing with Oil revenues, it would have ensured from day one that Scotland received a sizable chunk of the revenues in recognition that the oil is in Scottish waters
It is after all a Scottish resource, like Hydro or coal, but Westminster saw this as a valuable cash cow that could finance projects in England. Scotland were never considered. An example of the duplicity of successive Westminster governments is the now infamous McCrone report of the 70's which was made top secret at the time and only recently released
45

,

30/05/2008 01:15:15
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46

TommyKaye,

UK 30/05/2008 01:16:30
The SNP should really be targetting the Tories as Labour are finished they are dead they are no longer credible and they are deeply corrupt.

The poll out tomorrow shows that LAbour will nto be elected again for maybe decades.

The Daily Telegraph has a YouGov poll tomorrow, with the Conservatives on 47%, Labour on 23% and the LibDems on 18%. Compared to last month's poll, the Tories are up three and Labour is down three. It's the highest ever Conservative showing in a YouGov poll and Labour's worst poll since, well, ever - ever since polling began.
47

celtic4,

USA 30/05/2008 01:20:37
#15 The North Sea oil reserves are in Scottish Waters, not Englands. Sorry.
48

Jimmy the Pie,

30/05/2008 01:23:36
From today's Telegraph

Labour support has slumped to its lowest level since polling began, according to a Telegraph survey.
49

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:29:04
London born Alistair Darling is a qualified Lawyer
where as Alex Salmond is a qualified Economist
Hmmm difficult one that, would I trust a Lawyer or an Economist?
Then again Alistair Darling did run Edinburgh buses, when he was a councillor, not very well though. Alex Salmond was Oil economist for RBS
Think I wold trust Alex Salmond over a failed Lawyer that could run buses any day
50

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:33:15
According to the Telegraph poll, Labour are less popular that when Michael Foot was their leader!
It is the lowest level of support for Labour since pollsters Gallup first asked people to declare their voting intention in 1943, a few months before the Battle of El Alamein. Under Michael Foot support for the party never dipped below 23.5 points
51

Edward,

30/05/2008 01:35:12
Mind you, Labour do have two whole years to recover the situation, then again perhaps not!
Even if they did pull a rabbit out the hat and imrove, the best that they could acheive is a hung parliament with the Tories in charge!
52

Nikostratos,

30/05/2008 01:36:18
#26 Guga

GUGA'S second favourite insult 'Foreigner' Guga's best and most Favorite insult 'English'......

Love it Guga ha ha ha ha........

#18 conan

If it is good enough for TS elliot
53

sjs,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 01:53:35
This outrage continues and we let it. It's partly our own fault. Why can't we have the referendum NOW. If its so important to you Salmond... please, just present your case in a week long conference, labour can say we should stay in the UK, then we can get to vote! I know I'm being over simplistic... but we just want to hear the cases put forward by each party and get to vote. I don't want another year of being shafted by England so give us our referendum NOW NOW NOW
54

ChinaBear,

Hong Kong 30/05/2008 02:43:15
Still don't understand how the oil is in Scottish waters? I thought that everything beyond the 3 or 10 mile limit was international water.
The North Sea was divided up under agreement many years ago into areas stating who had the right to drill where. Britain has an agreement to drill in an area of international sea, not Scottish sea.....
Mr Fish also fails to note the huge wealth enjoyed by Scotland that comes into Aberdeen as a direct result of the oil industry.
The fact is that Scotland will struggle to earn enough to pay the bills on it's own and driving top people away from the financial services industry through high taxes will exacerbate the process.
55

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:12:26
#39. So what? England, Scotland an Northern Ireland are not sovereign states and therefore cannot have territorial waters. These borders could be redrawn at anytime at the whim of the UK parliament in the same way as the UK parliament could redraw the boundaries of England and Scotland. Counts for nothing.
56

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:16:42
#33. 'Acting wholly in the interests of Scotland' instead of the nation as a whole shows why devolution isn't working. Most people put the UK above its individual parts.
57

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 03:26:52
#55 China Bear. I suggest you look up the Law of the Sea Convention on the Internet.

#56 Royster. We will regain our territorial integrity as well as all our territorial waters as soon as we are free from the dead hand on English Imperialism.

As for your "most people", "putting the YUK above its individual parts", this is according to whom? You and your fellow foreigners?
58

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 03:29:27
#58 Traquir. Talking of Quislings, Vidkun Quilsling was also a "son of the manse".

Also, Royster can be forgiven for continually attacking Scotland and the Scottish people as he is not, himself, Scottish.

59

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Say it how it is! 30/05/2008 03:30:02
Its Scotlands Oil.

The people of Scotland deserve to get the benifit!

Its time to give it back.

Lets cut ourselves free of English tryany and march forward to prosperity and freedom.
60

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:32:51
#58. I'm British.
61

The Pict.,

30/05/2008 03:39:49
Royster # 58. You are English (or an English lackie) which is the same as British.
62

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:51:58
#65 et al. Has it ever occurred to you nationalist half-wits that some people may have both Scottish and English parents and relations? Perhaps not. It's the inter-breeding I suppose.
63

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:57:10
#65. Why do I have to make a choice because of your bullying rhetoric?
64

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:58:34
#65. England and Scotland are artificial constructs created by Norman kings. The British have been on this island much longer.
65

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 05:01:58
Many Oil analysts are now subscribing to the Super Spike Theory.

In the Super Spike Theory Oil prices will continue to rise indefinately because some of the larger emerging economies continue to subsidies the cost of motor fuels.

Because their consumers are insulated from the higher prices on the world market, their overall Oil consumption will continue to grow.

Prices will continue to rise until either the Developed Worlds show serious drops in overall consumption or the developing economies run out of money to continue the subsidy.

Many analysts are predicting that Oil prices may exceed $200 per barrel by the end of this year.

As oil continues to rise the people of Scotland will become acutely aware that they have the most inequitable deal on Natural Resources of any country on the planet. Perhaps the only people who have been given as raw a deal are the people of the Niger Delta.

The twin realities of having your natural resources stripped out from under you for the benefit of another country, and being faced by a Tory Government in Westminster with no meaningful Scotish representation will finally be enough to persuade the Majority of Scots to support Indepenence.
66

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:19:55
#74. Back to the hectoring again I see. If Britain, in your words, is an artificial construct it has done pretty well for itself over the past few centuries. Indeed a lot better than its constituent parts have ever done. Being British, Scottish or/and English is not mutually exclusive unless you live in some kind of Brigadoon dungeons and dragons world.
67

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:24:06
#75. Sounds like you were a fan of the 'new paradigm'. Remember that? Did you invest in Enron shares and the internet bubble? If this oil price spike looks like a bubble and 'walks' like a bubble... then it probably is a bubble.
68

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:26:47
#72. I think you'll need the help of the Royal Navy if you want to start claiming oil around Rockall.
69

,

30/05/2008 05:32:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:36:06
#79. Ho, ho. The great Burns enlisted in a unionist militia.
71

terry osser,

morden 30/05/2008 05:36:14
weve all been shafted by mr bean for 11 years.
72

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:37:41
#79. My compatriots are British and my country is the UK. I see you as the snivelling traitor.
73

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:43:31
#84. British, Scottish and English. Not too difficult to understand.
74

Royster,

30/05/2008 05:44:23
#83. Why would the EU give Scotland support for oil off Rockall if it got nothing in return?
75

,

30/05/2008 05:44:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 05:57:18
#89 Traquir. He's not worth arguing with. Like all these Unionists, he obviously suffers from a split personality; and is obviously badly in need of medication.
77

,

30/05/2008 06:00:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Royster,

30/05/2008 06:06:20
#89. No, not considering that Scotland has been part of the union for donkey's years and that it has undoubtedly benefited from it and still does. North Sea oil is a very recent phenomenon. Personally I'd rather have the City of London than a finite resource such as oil with an extremely volatile price.
79

Saul Tyre,

Germany 30/05/2008 06:08:59
Aisdair Darling a big gun?????????????????????
80

Saint-Pierre Miquelon,

Oil Capital of Europe 30/05/2008 06:11:28
Scotland needs to preserve their precious oil & gas resources. The best way to do this is to cut the knot with England.

Think how much longer the oil will last without all those Chelsea tractors burning OUR petrol?
81

Royster,

30/05/2008 06:24:53
#95. Are you suggesting we close down the North Sea oil wells when the price is at $131 per barrel?
82

,

30/05/2008 06:25:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Damy Ruby,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 06:25:29
The big thing this article missed is that Darling and his boyfriend Brown will soon be either lowly useless backbenchers or unemployed. Imagine Darling having to fuel his own car like the rest of us. He was an idiot when he was in transport and he is still and idiot

BROWN: GO
DARLING: GO

PLEASE
84

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 06:26:17
#77 Royster

No there is nothing "New Paradigm" about this. This is basic economics. It is simply supply and demand.

World Oil capacity, despite massive sums spent on exploration, has been relativly static, growing by only 1 million Barrels per day over the last five years.

The demand side of the equasion is growing at 1 million barrels per day every year.

Normally high oil prices would slow down demand and increase efforts to create new supply.

Despite a 400% increase in price over the last five their has been only modest increases in supply.

Consupmtion growth has been fed a growing middle class in India, China and Indonesia. The developing economies are insulating their consumers from the World Price.

While you are paying over a pound per litre of fuel, I am paying 25p. I have no hard choices to face that may curb my consumption patterns.
85

,

30/05/2008 06:27:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 06:31:47
#92

I think Gordon Brown would rather have the Oil Companies since they now contribute more in Corporate Taxes (9.9 Billion this year)than the entire Financial sector.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11458232
87

dave A,

NZ 30/05/2008 06:32:27
Why doesnt Scotland declare war on England ? I need a good laugh go for it
88

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 06:45:14
#102 Dave

Making war is still a reserved power for Westminster.
89

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 30/05/2008 06:48:06
yes i'm sure there are several million scotsmen around the world who would come home and fight for our homeland.
i'll be the 1st
casey purvis
90

Royster,

30/05/2008 06:50:23
#101. Just one year then and the resource is dwindling?
91

Royster,

30/05/2008 06:51:57
#99. So what if the Chinese foat there currency thereby cutting over capacity? What will happen to the oil price?
92

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 06:56:39
#105

They also contributed more last year and will contribute more for the next few years as falling has prices shatter the banks balance sheets.
93

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 06:57:54
107

Should be "falling house prices"
94

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 06:58:36
Myth: an independent Scotland will as a matter of course have cheaper petrol.

Proof: Norway produces oil, is independent, but has as a matter of course DEARER petrol.

Stuff that fact in your tank and smoke it. Independence is no guarantee of heaven-on-earth.
95

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 07:06:46
#106

It is not exchange rates that are causing China's increasing consumption it is fact that they subsidise fuel prices.

If they cut the fuel subsidy you would have a massive rise in inflation that would probably lead to large scale social unrest. This is not something the Chinese government will not contemplate unless it has no other choice.

Given their extremely large foreign reserves they can continue with the subsidy for quite some time.
96

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 07:10:53
#109

They set their own fuel taxes. They chose to set them high. They also have a massive sovereign wealth fund from their windfall.

Whats does Scotland have? High fuel prices and no control over the tax level and no wealth fund.

I can see why your argument is so appealing.
97

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 30/05/2008 07:15:10
Any neutral person would find the situation very strange.Scotland has oil yet cannot use some of the income from oil to reduce fuel costs.I remember in the 1970's that the unionists told us that Scotland did not have the resources to be independent.When the SNP tried to use the discovery of oil to make the economic case we were told:1) The oil would not last,2)We were greedy and selfish.Strange logic when you are told that you are to poor to be independent,but when you try to make an economic case you are being greedy.Also,as the McCrone report indicates,London Labour hid the true value of the oil reserves from the Scottish people.

Personally,I believe that independence is in itself something valuable.Oil is a bonus,but the economic argument is not dependent on oil.However,there is something perverse when an oli rich nation,is not allowed to use some of its natural resources to alleviate rhe effects of rising fuel costs.Alistair Darlings party (with the exception of a few) have continually frustrated normal aspirations for independence,lied to the public,and rigged the devolution referendum in 1979.It is not a party to be trusted and I suspect that it will pay a heavy electoral price in future elections.
98

Royster,

30/05/2008 07:15:21
#106. So if they cut the subsidy or are eventually forced to by the market then the oil price will collapse.
99

Royster,

30/05/2008 07:16:51
#111 and 112. Then why not have a vote on independence now? The oil price is high and Labour are on the run.
100

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 07:16:53
If Scotland had control over its own resources all the arguments about PPI, PPP or SFT would be null and void.

We could simply do what all the other petro rich countries do.

Pay Cash.
101

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 07:23:13
#114

We are still waiting for the final piece to fall in place. Don't worry after the next Westminster election you will get your chance to vote in the referendum.
102

Royster,

30/05/2008 07:23:22
#115. What if the oil price collapsed? It rose very quickly so why can't it fall quickly?
103

Royster,

30/05/2008 07:27:45
#118. Then push for a referendum now.
104

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 07:29:16
#113

Yes, and so will the Chinese Communist Parties grip on power.

Don't hold your breath.
105

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 07:34:22
All those in favour for a vote on independence?
106

SouthernSkye,

30/05/2008 07:36:28
#2 Am Balach

I agree 100%. Wife had 1000litres(+ a bit) of heating oil delivered yesterday.The bill is over 600GBP.
5 years ao the same fill-up was 200GBP.
We need 4 tanks a year.
This year we will pay 2400GBP for heating and hot water. 200GBP per month average (although most of this goes during winter as we try to keep the heating off during summer).
Then we have the electricity bill on top of that.
Petrol was 122ppl in Inverinate the other day.Not sure the cost at the moment at the CoOp in Broadford.

I'm not after sympathy here but there are many who post who seem to think that the increased fuel costs will stop us using so much and it is a good thing.
If you are in the middle of the city, have public transport, don't need to use heating oil, perhaps it might. If things carry on like this there will be a "second Highland clearance" as no-one will be able to afford to live outside of the main urban sprawls!

Forget the politics. Pull together and sort this mess out please SNP-Lab
107

eric,

30/05/2008 07:37:12
It doesnt matter to me how we get independence oil or no oil .ireland has no oil.england has always leeched off its old empire .it must learn to walk without crutches now .
108

SouthernSkye,

Are New labour going bankrupt? 30/05/2008 07:42:17
Perhaps more reasons NL need to increase taxes????

Are new labour going bankrupt?

Had a little time today and found several references to NL not being able to sign off the books come the end of May and there is talk of forming a back-dated limited liability company to escape the creditors !
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/29/labour

Senior officials in the Labour party, including Gordon Brown, could become personally liable for millions of pounds in debt unless new donors can be found within weeks, the Guardian has learned.
The party has five weeks to find £7.45m to pay off loans to banks and wealthy donors recruited by Lord Levy, Tony Blair's former chief fundraiser, or become insolvent. A further £6.2m will have to be repaid by Christmas - making £13.65m in all. The sum amounts to two-thirds of the party's annual income from donations.
The figures are a conservative estimate as they do not include interest that will also have to be paid. A Labour source said that although the total debt was listed as £17.8m on the Electoral Commission website, the true level, with interest, was nearer to £24m.
The possibility that party officials and members of its national executive committee could become liable is being taken seriously by union leaders, and has been underlined by the decision of equity fund chairman David Pitt-Watson not to accept the post as Labour's general secretary............more via the link.
More on Mr Pitts-Watson here.....
http://www.labourhome.org/story/2008/4/7/7324/42400

http://www.labourhome.org/story/2008/1/25/14355/0024
Tribune today has a dramatic article about Labour Party attempts to reschedule up to £14 million of loans, and that NEC members could be personally liable for the debts if legal action is taken. Apparently a last resort of converting the party into a limited company is being considered by some, to protect the NEC members from liability!
The article claims "Some of [the 12 large providers of loa
109

Russell M,

Stirling 30/05/2008 07:53:19
Can you spell E X P L O I T A T I O N ?
110

Thomas1,

scotland 30/05/2008 07:54:19
Be careful on this one, after last weeks bashing of labour by the tories, the english voters might start voting new labour again thinking the oil belongs to the region south of the border.
111

john z,

edinburgh 30/05/2008 07:54:29
It IS SCOTLANDS OIL. It is an utter outrage, that a snivelling little grovelling sh@t like Darling - who has quite clearly forgotten where his constinuents live, should even think of saying what he did.

And where are the Scottish media condemning him???? Nowhere, as usual.

The only oil producing country in the world, that has no access to its own natural resources, and when this is rightly questioned, the Scottish media sit back and laugh.

Why oh why oh why can the people of Scotland not yet see how they are quite blatantly sh@fted by the English dominated parliament.

For all the dimwits who keep saying the oil was found or developed by the UK government, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. North sea oil is obtained by PRIVATE global oil companies. The revenue is not from oil SALES but from oil TAXATION. Somewhere between 85 to 90 percent of North sea oil fields are in Scottish territorial waters as recognised internationally.

If Scotland were independent, the revenue from Scottish oil, would produce a budget surplus for the people of Scotland, just like in Norway, Saudi Arabia and so on. But no, we give all our oil to England, then have to beg for a little of it back.

An utter disgrace. The likes of the Scotsman, the Herald and so on, ought to be ashamed of themselves.

As pointed out above, there are people in Scotland, a country rich in oil, who cannot afford to get oil to heat their homes, and this utter pr@ck,(former Edinburgh councillor) Darling has the cheek to condemm Alex Salmond. At least Alex Salmond is standing up for the people of Scotland, including Darlings' own constituents, people who Darling has clearly forgotten.

Would the people of Scotland please wake up, for heavens sake.
112

Isonomia,

Lenzie 30/05/2008 08:00:10
The best thing we could do with North Sea Oil is to leave it in the ground and wait till prices go above the £5/litre level which some experts predict.
113

dianne12,

Aberdeenshire 30/05/2008 08:01:14
Don't get this - North sea oil peaked in 1999 and has been in decline ever since. How about focusing on consuming less. These unionist vs nationalist arguments continue to dominate while the real issues are avoided! Nobody seems to care that we a currently in the throws of the 6th mass extinction event, nobody seems to care that we have depleted and polluted the resources that we depend on in less than three hundred years, nobody is interested in the exponential population growth in the same time. These are the real issues that threaten our existence. Do you really think that an independent Scotland is going to protect us from these global problems? The economic arguments that society is built on are fundamentally flawed - you simply can't use capital as income! eventually it runs out ...then what?
114

john z,

edinburgh 30/05/2008 08:03:00
As for Brown and Darling meeting the oil companies in Scotland- I smell a big stinky rat. They both knew they had no influence in reducing prices, but it gave them an opportunity to press the oil companies 'off the record' literally to start making noises about how Scottish independence will damage oil production, how it won't last very long etc..etc.. with the promise of Westminster sweeteners for the corporate liars in return.

Mark my words, this is EXACTLY what was done to Scotland in the 1970's when nationalism was strong, and Broon and Darling are wilfully lying and deceiving the people of Scotland all over again.

Expect some kind of statement or 'study' or 'report' soon from the oil companies in the North sea, essentially poo pooing the idea of Scottish independence, which will then be held up by broon and his lapdug wendy in order to show how the 'union' is really awfy good for the people of Scotland.

A parcel of rogues indeed.
115

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 30/05/2008 08:06:28
Just my usual reminder..

Alex Salmond is sticking to his manifesto...

Mr Darling is sticking to the 'Brown stuff'...

or is it the brown stuff that's sticking to him and his ilk?

It's time for him and gordon to go and fall on their swords.



Yours etc

Angus Whitton
116

Royster,

30/05/2008 08:07:13
#128. If Scots have been shafted by the English parliament or the English just want to keep Scotland, what's to stop them closing Holyrood and keeping the oil? Moreover the PM, his predecessor and the Chancellor are all Scots. Get real.
117

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 30/05/2008 08:10:47
Let's clear up the confusion for those who are either dim-witted or playing silly-buggers.

The vast majority of what is currently the UK's Oil lies in Scottish waters. When Independence comes this will be Scottish territory and ownership of this resource will pass to Scotland as will all revenues that accrue from it.

When Indepenmdence comes this will be the scenario:-

It's Scotland's oil

They are Morecambe bay's cockles (England's)

The Thames's Jellied Eels (England's)

Any suggestion of an English share of our oil must be balanced by a financially proportional share of cockles and eels.

No matter how hard the Unionists try you cannot change maps, boundaries and internationally recognised ownership.




118

scottish person,

paisley 30/05/2008 08:12:14
Do macmahon and macdonnell still have their rangers season ticket.

There Goes the First Minster again trying to stoke up anger and rage amongst the Scottish peoples.
Nickostratus you are a p***k.

Scotland must break from this shower of idiots in london, we must do it sooner rather than later.

Will I have to sign again because I dont agree with the hootsmon.
119

Thomas1,

scotland 30/05/2008 08:13:05
133,
i never realised there was an english parliament,where is it situated?
120

paulr,

edinburgh 30/05/2008 08:13:47
All I've seen here are the idiot twins brown and darling, attacking the SNP to try and divert attention away from the shambles they are creating from our economy.
It still amazes me that darling was elected to parliament then became transport minister after the mess he left edinburgh in with his moronic traffic plans.
121

Thomas1,

scotland 30/05/2008 08:14:20
It's oor haggis.
122

Royster,

30/05/2008 08:16:11
#134. Your argument about English domination holds no water. If Scotland wants to be independent, it just has to vote for it. The Scottish parliament was established with the help of English MPs you so despise.
123

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 30/05/2008 08:17:36
Hmmm, Royster you just don't get it do you?

Salmond made no mention of the English or England. This issue is about Scottish self rule and using our resources as we choose.

As far as you are concerned in your post at 133 - anything goes to keep us Scots at heel - even undemocratic and illegal actions.

Further ,as you well know, the average nationalist has no gripe with our neighbours but with the fellow Scots who vote for staying in an unequal union through sheer ignorance and fear. Fear stoked by lies peddled by you and your ilk.

Can you post a single link where Salmond has a bitch about the English?
124

Thomas1,

scotland 30/05/2008 08:19:34
I'd rather have independence than dependence.
125

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 30/05/2008 08:19:53
Thomas @ 137

exactly - he is just a troll trying stir things up
126

True Scot,

Over Here 30/05/2008 08:25:55
John Z Post 128/131

Couldn't agree with you more John. Our Nation has sat back and watched as westmonster takes every penny from us and then when we ask for some of the riches back we are laughed off and told we are a nation of subsidy junkies. My big concern is that westmonster will only let us go when all the resoucres are finished, which would be normal for them.
We are a rich country both in resources and people and it is about time we stood up on our own two feet and had a voice in this world, if not for this generation for all our barns
IT'S TIME
127

thinking,

Scotland 30/05/2008 08:28:03
#2 I agree with you
#14 - Having friends and family in the south of England I don't see how they are being propped up by 'Scotland's oil'. Most of the time their fuel prices have been higher than the average here. Yes, there will be places cheaper where there is competition but that happens here too. They pay the same income tax as here but their council tax is higher than most places here, so how are we propping them up?
128

Java_Man,

Scotland - UK 30/05/2008 08:31:34
'The English'! how derogatory is that phrase. When i hear that word it is always from the mouth of some half-cooked nationalist. Do you realise the damage Perpetrators of this attitude do to the nationalist cause. I for one never consider the nationalist vote for this very reason. I dont want to be part of this gutter attitude that belongs in some bygone era. The nationalist movement needs to dissociate themselves with these mindless,thoughtless and very uneducated individuals, and then only will they reep the total success they have always yearned.
129

tartan army 2222,

30/05/2008 08:35:06
Peteredinburgh wrote:

******Spot the odd one out.

Its Wale's coal.
Its Lancashire's industrial revolution
Its London's financial markets.
Its Scotland's oil.

Yes, All have contributed to UK prosperity over the last 300 years but only one has been claimed as uniquely owned by the area in which it originates.

Selfish aren't we******


What absolute nonsense.
Coal was not found solely in Wales (note the lack of an apostrophe grammar boy) - think Scotland and Yorkshire ring any bells?
The industrial revolution happened throught the UK - Carron Ironworks for example.
Edinburgh has one of the biggest financial markets in Europe.

And the English examples are pointless also - produced in England and benefitting England.

So no, we're not selfish, just claiming what is rightfully ours. But if you think your post will help save the dying union then go for it - just try and get your grammar right next time.
130

tartan army 2222,

30/05/2008 08:36:42
147

As opposed to 'Jocks' being bandied about on national radio. Or 'the Scots'.
131

donald,

glasgow 30/05/2008 08:39:05
Holyrood at war with Westmonster over oil and tax theft. Aboot bliddy time!
132

Royster,

30/05/2008 08:39:28
#149. What's your point? Oil is not found soley in Scottish waters.
133

Dbxsteve,

West Kilbride 30/05/2008 08:41:06
The dawn of independence is upon us.....

William Wallace: I AM William Wallace! And I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men... and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight?

Veteran: Against that? No! We will run. And we will live.

William Wallace: Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
[Scottish army cheers]

William Wallace: Alba gu bra!
["Scotland forever!"]

Our, FREEDOM, our independence, our prosperity is coming....
134

Thomas1,

scotland 30/05/2008 08:41:11
147 java man
If we can't call the people "who live" in the region south of the border "the english", what should we call them?
135

Royster,

30/05/2008 08:41:46
#87. Check your history.
136

MNS,

SCOTLAND 30/05/2008 08:42:27
I have voted for the S.N.P. since I was 18. It also
happened to be the same year that the voting age
was changed from 21 to 18. 34 years ago. Yes, I've
adopted the attitude that "IT'S SCOTLAND'S OIL".
But arguments aside - just did a very simplistic
search on the internet to find some of the
cheapest petrol on the planet.
Australia has cheap fuel -Shell...
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23746288-5012062,00.html
I used this website to calculate prices ...
http://coinmill.com/AUD_GBP.html

The article states... DESPITE the grumblings of
motorists, oil giant Shell says Australia has some
of the world's cheapest fuel.

And the nation's peak consumer group, Choice,
agrees - even as prices at the bowser jumped
beyond $1.60 (78p) a litre this week.

78p A LITRE IN AUSTRALIA !!! (EVEN TAKING
'SLIGHT' VARIATIONS IN THE CALCULATION FOR
ONE REASON OR ANOTHER)

MY QUESTION WHICH WAS THEN (AND NOW)....

" WHY ????? "

ALSO USED http://www.petrolprices.com/
UNLEADED FUEL The Lowest price in this (MY) area: 112.9p

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! READ ALSO !!! ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

Recent evidence
Evidence unearthed in late 2005 under the
Freedom of Information Act has shown significant
UK government concerns over the rising tide of
Scottish Nationalism during the early part of the
1970s and the consequences that this may have had upon ownership and control over the UK's North Sea resources. A report written by the Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone for ministers[16] in the mid-1970s indicated that with ownership of North Sea oil, an independent Scotland would have "embarrassingly large tax surpluses"[17], that the economy of an
independent Scotland, with control over the
majority of UK North Sea oil revenue would have
the one of the "hardest" currencies in Europe and
that "for the first time since the Act Of Union was
passed, it can now be cr
137

Joe,

Livingston 30/05/2008 08:45:45
It wont be Scotland's oil until Shetland embraces
the reluctant anti-tartan, anti-kilt Alex Salmond. His
rabble-rousing nationalism is all mouth and trousers.
The man is a political maniac intent on breaking up the union.
138

MNS,

SCOTLAND 30/05/2008 08:49:14
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! READ ALSO !!! ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

Recent evidenceEvidence unearthed in late 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act has shown significant
UK government concerns over the rising tide of
Scottish Nationalism during the early part of the
1970s and the consequences that this may have
had upon ownership and control over the UK's
North Sea resources. A report written by the
Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone for
ministers[16] in the mid-1970s indicated that with
ownership of North Sea oil, an independent
Scotland would have "embarrassingly large tax
surpluses"[17], that the economy of an
independent Scotland, with control over the
majority of UK North Sea oil revenue would have
the one of the "hardest" currencies in Europe and
that "for the first time since the Act Of Union was
passed, it can now be credibly argued that
Scotland's economic advantage lies in its repeal"
139

Dbxsteve,

West Kilbride 30/05/2008 08:49:24
#155 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

This should be compulsory reading for all Scots!!
140

brownlie,

30/05/2008 08:49:24
Superb show from Mr Darling!!

"He dismissed the SNP's calls for oil tax revenues to be distributed to Scotland and for a "fuel tax regulator" to limit the rising price of fuel"

Mr Darling, in his wisdom, knows that the Scottish public are quite happy to pay increased fuel prices in order to pay for essentials like Trident replacements and armed incursions into foreign lands.

He, also, quite rightly, claimed that the SNP had made no approaches to the Treasury regarding LIT. Strange that the Scotsman and other media sources claimed that the Treasury had stated that the SNP's plans were illegal so the Treasury (First Lord - Gordon Brown) made this statement without being aware of the plans.

Unionists - arrogance, and clairvoyance, is what we do!!
141

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 30/05/2008 08:51:19
#114 I would have a referendum now.However,my point is not about referendums,it is about:

1) The paradoxical situation that Scotland cannot control even a portion of its oil revenues to alleviate the distress to business and its rural communities caused by the rising fuel costs

2)The strange logic whereby arguing on behalf of those who are suffering from rising fuel costs is viewed as picking fights with Westminster.Of course this one dimensional view does not consider alternative perceptions.

3)Labour has consistently lied about the value of oil reserves in order to protect their own political interests.This is well documented in the McCrone report.

Alec Salmond is asking that some of the oil revenues be diverted towards reducing the impact of rising fuel costs.Considering that the Province of Alberta in Canada control all of their oil reserves,this is not asking very much.He was elected to stand up for the interests of the Scottish people.Asking for resources to reduce a very serious problem is what we should expect any first minister to do.Yesterday at FM question time,a Labour MSP was overheard too say,"here we go again" It is unbeleivable,but perhaps not surprising,that a Labour MSP cannot support the Scottish government on this issue.I think that the suffering electorate will remember this when the next election comes around.Labour are shooting themselves in the foot over this one and playing a very dangerous game.
142

Alasdair,

30/05/2008 08:52:43
#156, Joe - now Joe, it's regularly demonstrated on here that you don't know very much about very much, so maybe best if you get back in your angry little box, eh?

As to Darling - I'll give him one thing, the man has brass balls. Standing up saying that the SNP's sums don't add up, when he's the "closest ally" of a man who has overseen the UK's debt increase massively, in times of great prosperity, takes some doing.
143

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 30/05/2008 08:53:39
England has her own oil and gas fields, in Morecambe Bay and at Wytch Farm and off Humberside. Scotland doesn't ask for these areas to come to us as we clearly have no claim to them. Which British side was Royster on at Bannockburn?
144

Jings Crivens,

30/05/2008 08:54:05
Good this attack bt th eCavalier Salmond will help deflect the attention away from his broken promises and failing policies.

If it wasn't for being part of the UK, then little old Scotland would be being fleeced like any small country would by the big multi-national oil companies
145

Royster,

30/05/2008 08:57:37
#87. Robert Burns joined the Royal Dumfries Volunteers in 1795.
146

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 08:58:52
#156. "intent on breaking up the union".

Too true mate. The sooner we are independent, the sooner we can stop Scotland being exploited and having our natural resources stolen to subsidise the English.

No Scotman worth his salt supports the Union, other than a Parcel of Rogues that are bought and sold for English gold. Then again, I assume from your vitriolic rant about wee Eck, you are not Scottish.
147

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:01:41
Surely it's Shetland's oil?

What happens if Shetland has a referendum and votes independence from Alba?
148

brownlie,

30/05/2008 09:06:42
164 Jings

Not a great idea to mention "little" Scotland being fleeced as some nat is bound to come on here and say that they are being fleeced at present by Darling and co.

There is no sign of Norway being "fleeced" by the big multi-national oil companies but maybe they are better equipped and willing to stand up for themselves than "little" Scotland.
149

Deekie fae Midstocket,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 09:07:25
London Labour and the rabidly anti-Scottish Tories cannot be trusted. When will the people of Scotland wake up and realise that only Independence will improve their lot? Scotland: the only nation to have discovered oil and to become poorer for it. Union dividend? My giddy aunt!
150

Alasdair,

30/05/2008 09:11:05
#167, Rulesbutnotrulers - there's no legal framework covering the seas around Shtland to support such a mave, whereas there is for Scotland.
Also, if my Shetlander colleagues are to be believed, the Shetland independence movement consites of a small number of what they charmingly describe as "harmless weirdos".

Sorry to remove those straws you're clutching at.
151

DMK,

Livingston 30/05/2008 09:11:08
The local income tax is a smokescreen thrown up by the chancellor to diver attention, nothing more. If corporation tax is dropped to Irish or Swiss levels then perhaps Scotland could do as both this nations have been recently, attract major European HQs to Scotland regardless of LIT. Big Picture guys.

As for Oil, as a supporter of the Scottish Government it pains me to see the argumetn hasn't moved on from the late '70.

Yes, Scotland is the richest oil nation in Europe
Yes, the country has been shafted for years
Yes, it's particularly unfair to the rural economy

But the country has to wean itself from oil in order to make it last and to use it where there is no alternative, the country has to move to alternative energy and this country has a range of companies all with technology and capability to actually help drive this change.

Holyrood and local authorities can drive this change with legislation- regardless of the Westminster obsession with keeping the Chelsea tractors going in London.

The All Energy event in Aberdeen last week illustrated the issues perfectly- dozens of Scottish companies working on technology to generate green energy or to utilise energy more efficiently.

But, each jealously defending their own turf, underfunded and tunnel visioned and at least 3 different Scottish Government stands with a further contingent of local authorities all scrabbling to claim they can support companies.

Compared to the joined-up thinking of the oil industry it was a sad mess. Where is the joined up thinking? Where was the leadership?

Where was Jim Mather and his mindmapping software? Some one needs to knock heads together or Scotland's lead in energy capture, battery technology, battery management etc will all be lost to the Far East.

Imagine Edinburgh 2015:
The trams are running;
The City Car club has 75% of it's fleet as electric vehicles (charging points at their designated parking places)the rest are "plug-in hybrids";
Free park
152

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:11:50
165

I joined the British Army in 1974 didnt take away my commitment to Scottish Independence though.

151

Over 90% claimed by the UK Government is though.

133

The Scottish Parliament was created to stem the drive towards Independence. Every concession Scotland has ever gained from Westminster was to forced on them in order to appease the Nationalists and to help stem the spread of Nationalism.

117

The price of oil will collapse or not whether Scotland is in or out of the Union. Scotland will not be protected from a collapse of oil prices within the union will it.
And the price of oil will never collapse to zero so no matter what the price of oil and Independent Scotland will always gain whereas it doesnt matter what the price of oil is to Scotland while it remains within the union because we dont see a penny of it anyway.

114

Because they have a long way left to run yet and they are gaining speed and momentum by the day so why stop them now.

113

So what China will do what China does whether Scotland is in or out of the union. The effect on Scotland will be exactly the same.

109

Is a Federal option the way to heaven on earth then and if not then why do you support it or is it ok for us to support Independence without worrying about whether it will be heaven on earth or just a damn site better than where we are now.
153

Commited to Independence,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 09:13:16
167

Aye and why wouldnt the movement for an Indepedent Aberdeen and Grangemouth not claim the oil as well.
154

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:15:31
174

Aye now why dont you toddle off and google UN international maritime law and let them explain to you why its Scotlands oil.
155

Guga II,

Rockall 30/05/2008 09:16:18
#167. There you go again with your Shetland red herring. Why do you, as a foreigner, continue to try and disrupt these threads with your mindless garbage?
156

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:18:41
174

The status quo gives nothing to Scotland except the Barnett formula which is going to be decreaced further no matter if the Tories or Labour win the next Westminster elections. Now maybe you can explain why the Barnett formula is better for Scotland compared to controlling all of its own assets.
157

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:18:47
#171 Alisdair.

What happens if Shetlanders DO vote to break the Union with Scotland? They could all be very, very wealthy so that might just tip the vote in favour of thos 'weirdoes' who want independence!

(Isn't it odd how those who want independence for Scotland are sensible, but those who want independence for Shetland are cranks?)
158

dianne12,

Aberdeenshire 30/05/2008 09:18:53
Cheap oil is over! - what are they arguing about? North Sea oil peaked in 1999 it's declining at a much faster rate than predicted and becoming increasingly difficult to extract (forget the 1970's). This has been known for years (Hubbert), so what's the surprise with price increases! did anybody bother to prepare for this? I can't believe Mr. Salmond's recent comment "Good times for oil and gas" what a foolish comment. Short term econimics don't work, what about future generations?
There are alternative to this madness - what's the obsession with economic growth anyway... how about a bit of sustainability.

http://www.iags.org/n0524043.htm

try transition towns

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6932300.stm
159

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:19:44
167

Federation within the union how does that work then.
160

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:20:39
#177 Guga.

On the wacky baccy so early? Why be rude, unless it's because you can't discuss sensibly and politely?
161

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:21:32
179

What happens if there is a seismic shift in continental plates and Scotland is swallowed by the Atlantic and North Sea. One is as likely as the other.
162

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:21:50
#181 The USA is a good example of a federation within a union.
163

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:23:09
179

So Independent Shetlanders can be very wealty with their share of the oil but Independent Scots cant how does the math work then
164

Commited to Independence,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 09:23:52
185

The USA is a union of what regional states or national countries.
165

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:25:47
185

So would you support Scotland becomming a Federal state of the US
166

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:25:57
#173 Committed.

What proof is there that Scotland will definitely be better off if independent? There's several oil rich states few of of us would wish to live in.
167

It's me!,

30/05/2008 09:27:39
Labour is running scared. And they should be.
168

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:27:47
#189 Committed.

Now you are being silly.

Scotland can be an autonomous state within the Fed of GB. Think Switzerland.
169

Jay Kay,

30/05/2008 09:28:11
Petrol is 11p per litre in EGYPT thats ELEVEN FCUKING pence and broon is trying to justify this enormous hike, basically the greedy barstewards are raking back the loss of profit from the Grangemouth shutdown and now that the price has broken the 1£ a litre mark its open season on the motorist.

We the people of Scotland have a message for you, sell your hoose in North Queensferry mate because your not welcome here anymore, your a greedy fat arogant pig who has lost touch with reality.

The moral of the story is true absolute power corupts absolutly.

We need total INDEPENDENCE from westmonster and Europe and we need it now.
170

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:29:36
190

The nations you refer to would be no better to live in if they all joined up as a union or do you think they would be.
Scotland would be financially better off controlling its own income and resourses than it is under the barnett formula or do you think differently
Scots would have more say and better access to their politicians in Edinburgh than in London or do you think differently
Scottish politicians are more accountable to Scots than English politicians are or do you think differently.
Scottish political parties are not controlled by the English counterparts if there are no English counterparts or do you think differently
171

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:30:05
#188 Committed.

The USA is a union of over 40 previously independent states. Learn some history, pal.
172

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:30:33
192

Which Federation is Switzerland a part off then.
173

Nikostratos,

30/05/2008 09:30:34
#136


http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Scotsman-debate-Independence-the-divisive.4135523.jp

"Nicola Sturgeon (NStu): Of course, I believe we are closer to independence than a year ago; if I didn't say that, I know what would be on the front page of tomorrow's Scotsman"

"I think we could win a referendum now. That's partly because some of the issues facing us now, like high fuel prices at a time when Scotland's huge oil revenues are going down to London, make people angry."


Nicola could say what she believes in and not what is dictated by the Scotsman headlines. The implication is Nicola doesn't truly believe the snp would win a referendum.

although the snp are willing to use the peoples 'Anger' for political benefit. One can speculate if more anger is likely to lead to greater support for Independence is it politically opportune to encourage this with talk of taking revenues to London

#116 Guga II,

The problem with Guga II, (who has had posts deleted for racist comments)is he gives the distinct impression it isn't just the 'Union' he would like to break up.


#112 Suomi,

"Any neutral person"

You just don't get it...The time for neutrality is long past what is needed is to finish it one way or the other.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
Lincoln
174

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:31:37
196

Not 40 previously independent countries then none of them had to give up their national identities to join a bigger nation then
175

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:31:38
#194. Freedom.

Make a sensible contribution; or take your own advice.
176

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:33:23
198

You would rather support the party that causes the anger than the party that uses that anger to reverse the policies that cause the anger.
Are you really that shallow.
177

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:33:26
#199 Committed.

As I said, learn some history. Go and read up the arguments that occurred before the USA got it together, then get back to me.
178

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 09:34:46
179
I would assume that any independence movement on Shetland would attract the support of all those patriots in the SNP. Surely they wouldn't be so hypocritical as to deny the Shetlanders the right to self-determination?
179

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:36:15
202

Get back to you for what the answers to my questions
If you believe what you post then why cant you answer the questions when put to you.
180

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:37:24
203

If they have a case then lets here it. If there is an Independence movement then lets see it lets here from it.
181

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 09:37:40
Call this responsible reporting? This pro SNP stance will do the Scotsman no favours. Scotland needs objectivity, not bias.
182

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 30/05/2008 09:38:32
If North Sea oil ran out tomorrow Scotland would get full Independence the next day, If it wasn't for the oil England would have been bankrupt many years ago. Scottish voters voting Labour can't be right in the head.
183

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 09:38:58
203

Grahamski, I agree. It's Orkney's and Shetland's oil.
184

Endangeredscot,

30/05/2008 09:39:19
77 Royster

Do you just talk nonsense for the sake of it? In part the oil price is inflated, but that is because those inflating it are predicting it will rise. No major new finds are being discovered which means what is left is now a very valuable, and shrinking resource. Yes the price will rise and fall, but there will be a clear upward trend that will continue its upward curve.

Can you imagine the price oil will rocket to if there is another major conflict in the middle east? Or if terrorists sabotage a major terminal or pipeline? It will make the $200 barrel look dirt cheap.

Of course none of these is a certainty, but they are a distinct possibility. Therefore in a jittery world, hungry for more and more of a dwindling finite resource, the price is always going to go up and up until, frankly, it becomes too expensive to buy.

Why do you think Brown wants the North Sea to pump out more? It's to take advantage of the current and near future prices.

Once more, as in the early days of Thatcherism, the North Sea will be used to prop up an unpopular government.

And Scotland will be shafted again.
185

Lance Boyle,

Linlthgow 30/05/2008 09:39:47
207

CUJ, your logic is flawed. Why just Labour?
186

ai1,

Ultima Thule 30/05/2008 09:40:23
Don't you just love all this tosh about Scotlands oil Fact most of the oil is in waters belonging to Orkney and Shetland, yet we pay over a pound a gallon more than aberdeen for our own fuel. to all you SNP gadgies get your filthy thieving hands of our oil, our fish and our islands.
187

Lance Boyle,

Linlthgow 30/05/2008 09:41:29
211

Well put ai1.
188

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:42:46
Seems to me the unionist argument is comming from folk working for this paper. They are stirring up the blog in order to keep us posting on here.
It must be for the advertising profits
189

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 09:45:01
Look people.

A major proportion of the UK sector oil and gas will be under Scottish control once independence is secured - there is no argument about that. If you have a look at www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/99112601.gif you can see quite clearly that Scotland under Scots Law already has legal control over its waters.

I believe in a separate Scotland, and so do 90% of the Scottish people I know. There are also many English Students in our country who study here due to our laws governing tuition fees. A vast proportion of them also agree that Scotland would be better off Independent.

What we need is a concerted effort to get everyone in Scotland to vote. And I mean everyone. A proper campaign needs to be undertaken stating the facts to every man woman and child. This needs to be seen as a popular movement. Something akin to other independence movements around the world over the last century.

Given that the arguments against Scottish independence that I have seen so far are farcical I think the majority of people will vote for separation.

Our arguments after all are logical, and not conjecture, speculation or down right untruths. We are a knowledgeable people and many of us live abroad due to unfavorable circumstance at home.

Once independent Scotland would not be run by the SNP, as the SNP is a party made up of many different people with different political inspirations.

190

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 09:45:23
" Big guns were wheeled out yesterday"
?????????????

According to the opinion polls and approval ratings this should read,
A big gun and a lame duck!

Anyone noticed how, like Brown, Darlings accent has changed over the years?
191

Dan,

Peterborough, England 30/05/2008 09:45:32
Joking aside, the current situation cannot continue. The Union as was is no longer relevent, especially when you consider that the UK was one of the major contributors to KFOR that helped Kosovo break away from Serbia when they wanted independence.
It is rank hypocracy to push for greater autonomy elswhere yet deny it within the union itself. But then, this is politics so there is no reason for anyone to be surprised.

"Mark my words, this is EXACTLY what was done to Scotland in the 1970's when nationalism was strong, and Broon and Darling are wilfully lying and deceiving the people of Scotland all over again."
And the funniest thing about that, especially for me as an Englishman is that Brown et al - ARE ALL SCOTS!
Yes, you are being screwed over by your own countrymen.

Again.
Independence ideally would mean Scotland ruled by the Scots, Wales ruled by the Welsh and England ruled by the English and let them sink or swim on their own merits.
Given that, I believe we would end up with a new and far stronger union, but one based ideally on a meeting of equals.

Unfortunately, like most good ideas, it'll never happen because people are people and will always look to gain personal advantage.

Shame really.
192

Dan,

Peterborough, England 30/05/2008 09:49:14
By the way, the fuel prices are not just down to the current governemnt, (and I wonder if this will be mentioned at the next election), It was Major and Lamont that decided that in order to help the environment, Britain would be placed on what was described as a Fuel Duty Escalator - Duty would only EVER go up.

Thank you John Major and Norman Lamont of the Conservative Party, your legacy lives on...
193

brownlie,

30/05/2008 09:52:24
Rules & Grahamski


What if we unionists suspect that an independent Shetland is harbouring weapons of mass destruction. Obviously, the 45 minutes notice would apply so would the US come to our aid?
194

Grant,

30/05/2008 09:53:43
#211 Er, no it isn't

Most fields are in the central North Sea, meaning if it is anybody's oil, it's Aberdeen's, or the Highlands'. I suggest any of these Shetland nationalist imposters (who are just upset Scottish Unionists) take a look at a map.

Besides, the oil which lies in the Norwegian sector to the North east of Shetland, would be Unst's oil, not Shetland's. The independent minded folks of Unst share a great deal of contempt for the rest of Shetland.
195

ai1,

Ultima Thule 30/05/2008 09:54:13
Only the royal estates in Faroe Shetland and Orkney were part of the gaurantee of dowry between princess Margret of Denmark and james of Scotland not the Whole of the islands, King Christian did not own the islands so did not have the right to pawn them. many times the lands pawned have tried to be redeemed yet the scots have ignored all attempts to rectify the situation. why? because they were too busy raping the islands of every thing of value. the highland clearances were nothing compared to the crimes commited by scots on Orkney and Shetland. genocide would not be too harsh a description of what went on.
196

Grant,

30/05/2008 09:57:58
#185 Federation for the UK?

I can put it no better than Prof Vernon Bogdanor - the foremost constitutional expert in the UK, who thinks a federation of the UK is a non-starter:

""There is no federation in the world, to my knowledge, where one of the units contains 85% of the population. Many years ago the Royal Commission on the Constitution, which reported in 1973, looked at this question and said it was simply not a practicable proposition, and I think nothing has changed since that time to alter that verdict.""

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmjust/uc75-iii/uc7502.htm
197

ai1,

30/05/2008 09:58:30
218 if we had them we would have used them by now
198

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 09:59:28
#122

Being in a rural area limits a lot of alternatives such as switching from Oil to Natural Gas.

There are some alternatives that you could consider:

Switching your water heating to an electric water heater.

Installing a wood burning heater.

I dont know if you have access on Skye, but a lot of people in rural areas in North America and Australia use Propane for heating.

I think you should look at what alternatives might be available, rather than waiting for the politicians to act.

199

Java_Man,

dunbar 30/05/2008 10:00:16
153 Thomas1

BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ENGLISH PEOPLE, ITS ABOUT GOVERNMENT. When one heres the term "The English" it refers to all who are English not the government in which The gripe is with. So drop the phrase "The English" when referring to the current political state, I can assure you that many an englishman living in Scotland who classes it as their home will be as equal in support of an Independant nation than any indigenous Scot,.
200

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 10:01:12
#211 ai 1

Completely specious and deliberately divisive! Orkney and Shetland don't have sovereignty over any waters!
The Forties field? How close to Orkney is that?
Fact? I don't think so!
201

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:02:04
#220 Maybe you can complete the story and expound on how Shetland became part of Denmark in the first place?
202

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:03:38
I can't believe all these imperialist Shetlander's here staking claim to resources that aren't anywhere near them. Dear oh dear.
203

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:08:48
229 The brent the ninian the magnus the clair how close are they to wick,

228 we were never part of Denmark we just shared a king with Norway Sweden and Denmark, and unlike your king he was not an absolute ruler all land did not belong to him under god. he only ruled with the blessing of the people
204

Publius,

London 30/05/2008 10:14:12
Back to the story. Salmond and Darling get half marks each. Salmond is right about oil, but wrong about LIT. Darling is right about LIT, but wrong about oil.

Shetland independence - it won't happen. Not now. Not ever.
205

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 10:15:10
Shetland does get direct revenues from oil production - it is the only place in the UK that does. There is also a beautiful woman behind every tree in Shetland, so they need it.
206

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 10:15:53
#204 Committed.

Ask a sensible question in good English and I'll try my nest to answer in the same vein.

Meantime, be aware that you are gtting out of your depth.
207

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:15:59
your ideals of parliment came from the vikings, the notion that all men are equal also came from them a free man had as much rights as a king and he could challenge the king at any time, the alting gave men the place to be heard and and disputes settled. Scotland never had a free court for common folk until the union with England, so pull your head in Grant
208

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 30/05/2008 10:16:45
telling us how we all feel again

AS is like Putin
209

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 30/05/2008 10:17:01
Very interesting to see people very selectively picking sentences or words from fairly detailed postings rather than engage with the essence of the message.This nitpicking around the margins, semantic debates about the meaning of words,and quotations from people from the past is interesting, but doesn't really deal with the topic of the day.

However,I see that many are engaging with the topic of the day, rising fuel prices.It is a serious issue and I believe that people at home,especially the business community and those living in rural communities will appreciate the efforts of the SNP in Hollyrood and Westminster to find ways of alleviating their struggle to cope.I believe that the SNP have have an empathised sensitivity for the hardship resulting from fuel poverty and Labour are showing insensitivity.Of course the public need more than sympathy and empathy,they need practical help.I also think that Labour will find it very hard to explain why Scotland cannot use a portion of its natural resource to provide that practical help.They really need to think about this one because there are elections coming along.The attitudes of some Labour MSP's in Hollyrood yesterday doesn't help.I sometimes think that they have forgotten that the public can observe them at work,even those of us abroad.Some of us living abroad even have votes, so if they want to impress,they need to shape up.

In spite of the interesting debate on this site,I reluctantly need to go and do some work.
210

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 10:18:17
So, SNP wants a referendum for Scotland, but not for Shetland. Double standards? Snake oil salesmanship?

SNP speak with forked tongue. Take a telling, folk.
211

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:19:24
#229 Well they are closer to Norway and Unst than the rest of Shetland. What about the largest (by far) and most productive field in the North Sea - the Forties Fields, how close are they to Shetland?

You aren't telling the Story properly. Shetland was colonised, plundered and invaded by the Norwegians, who displaced the Picts.

212

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:21:13
#238.

Not at all if there were a genuine and legitimate demand for such a thing to happen, I'm sure it would be supported. But given there isn't, I'm not sure why Unionists bring it up a case of discussion.
213

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:24:52
234

I see youre unable or unwilling to back up a single opinion or statement you post.
214

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 10:25:50
#240 Grant.

Perhaps the Shetlanders will now get their act together after being under the heel of the dominating Scotti for so long? Rise up. Rise up, and vote for freedom.
215

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 10:25:56
#207 CU Jimmy

"If North Sea oil ran out tomorrow Scotland would get full Independence the next day, If it wasn't for the oil England would have been bankrupt many years ago. Scottish voters voting Labour can't be right in the head."

The UK suceeded in going bankrupt in the late '70's despite oil revenue. If you study your history, you will find that it was the discovery of oil that spurred Scotish independence sentiments, not the other way around. There has never been a serious political desire for England / Wales / N Ireeland to cast the porridge wogs adrift and leave them to there own devices.
216

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:26:07
238

That was very trollish are we seeing the real you now.
217

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:26:27
223 Shetland used to get a PENNY for every TONNE of oil that pased through Sullom Voe, now we are paying out money to keep Sullom open and opperating safely.

Most of the money collected on the penny a tonne went to paying for infrastructure to support the oil industry roads from sullom to lerwick and sumburgh houses for the oil workers that now stand empty and have to be pulled down for safety reasons, and the rest will be spent cleaning up the mess once the oil companies booger off again
218

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:29:42
238 242

You posted at 200

Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:31:38
#194. Freedom.

Make a sensible contribution; or take your own advice

And then you post 238 242.
I am starting to see where you are comming from.
219

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:30:08
Maybe they will Rules, and if it were genuine, I'd support that. But it isn't genuine. Given that nowadays most Shetlanders come from the dominating Scotti, I'm not sure that would ever be a legitimate reason for them to become independent. Hence why there is no demand for such a thing to happen.

On a separate note, I would like to see Scotland's islands like Shetland empowered after independence to make much more for themselves and take more responsibility for themselves. So I would like to see "more independence" for Shetland, Orkney, the Hebrides etc.
220

jjungle,

australia 30/05/2008 10:32:48
youd have to move to realize just how the scots are shafted at home.im now in oz and the ratio of earnings to cost of living is unbelievable to a newly arrived scot.even though the people that have been here for longer are up in arms about the rising cost of food,houses,cars,utilities,taxes and of course fuel which has doubled in price to 1.60AUD (80P) a litre everything is better run and more affordable right down to organised sports and education for our kids.id have loved to stay in scotland but i just dont know how a young family is supposed to get ahead.the money it seems is wasted by the government whereas down here if you cant get on and do well youre just not trying.money is spent on giving the people of australia the opportunity to better themselves at all levels and in practical ways where i just felt shafted by the union in scotland.shame
221

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 10:33:15
#248 Grant

Unfortunately, the SNP are taking power away from the Regions and centralising it in Edinburgh.
222

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:35:46
232

The only thing wrong with LIT is the SNP are trying to implement it with a minority government within a very restrictive Scotland act. Change any of the factors i.e the Scotland act or demography of the Parliament and LIT can be implemented with ease.
The policy itself is sound but the politics keeping it from being implemented is purely due to party loyalty rather than national loyalty.
223

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:35:53
240 I am a GENUINE Shetlander and I along with many others LEGITIMATELY demand a referendum, not much chance of getting it from AS though.
And if you truly believe the majority of oil is in Scotish and not Orkney and Shetlands waters why worry about us leaving an enforced union.

Like the Europians you have fished the waters around your shores till they are barren of life and with the removal of the Shetland box you will do the same to ours.
Stop pleapsing about the big bad englishman stealing your gold when you yourselves are very guilty of stealing ours
224

bluehead,

edinburgh 30/05/2008 10:37:11
no matter what broonie and his mob say,there is one thing that is a certainty and that is the labour party
are finished,
after recent events the only thing that seems to be proven are that successful politicians must have a twelve inch brass neck,be as thick skinned as an elephant,and conform to the principal that all promises,no matter how solemnly they are given, are there to be broken and never let truth interfere with a good policy
225

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:37:18
252

What power would that be then.
226

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:37:23
#252 No.

That's what the previous administrations have done. We see all the arguments about the ending of ring fencing in Local Government. The ending of ring fencing, is a step in the right direction to allowing local authorities to take local decisions.

Indeed when there was ring fencing before, and central diktat from Edinburgh, it really makes one wonder what the point was in having local authorities and local government in the first place.
227

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:40:14
#252 Well, first of all I'm as committed to Scottish independence as you.

What I mean is that these places should take decisions and have more responsibility over health, transport, economic development, tourism - and perhaps even raising more of their revenues where appropriate. Just more local accountability and local decision making for our remotest islands which are distant from the power base in Edinburgh. I think it is only fair.
228

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 10:40:41
#249 Jacckie

The fact that much of the oil & gas reserves would be within Scottish economic-zone waters, if Scotland was an independebt nation, is beyond dispute, but it is questionable whether it iis a goood thing for a small nation to be so dependent on one dwindling resource.
229

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 10:41:26
#251

So will you move back to Scotland if it gets independence then? Or will the better lifestyle and weather keep you in Australia?
230

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:42:11
231

Well if you really have looked it up which I doubt you would have noticed that all natural resourses within a 200 mile border from a national coastline are owned by that nation. And that International maritime law is disputed by nobody.
231

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 10:42:15
#256

Taxation, planning, and funding, for a start.
232

vorlic,

edinburgh 30/05/2008 10:42:29
get a coalition in to run the country,the best brains and intellegence.re nationalize every thing but get brains into to run the uk as a multi national company for the benifit of the citizens of the uk. after all it is our country,not the politicians.
go neutral and pull our troops out off war zones just think what the costs could do for the uk.
233

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:45:18
249 typical of someone who only knows the version of history written by the Scots. Shetland and Orkney were never part of Norway we just had the same King Who happened to own some farms on the islands, We even invaded Norway once or twice. We had closer links to the Dutch and Germans than than we ever did with the scots.
234

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:45:26
261

Just for the record all of the present oil fields presently being worked within the UK NS oil sector are all within 200 miles of the UK coastlines where over 90% of em are closest to the Scottish coastline than any other UK coastline.
235

R Mc,

Elgin 30/05/2008 10:46:22
Hi All,

Me thinks Gordon Broon and Alistair Darling won't be in power for much longer. New Labour my @r$e, dyed in the wool communists. They can't stand the idea of people having money,so they tax us to the hilt. The sooner we're rid of them the better.
236

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:46:29
262

So who should control taxation planning and funding then.
237

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2008 10:47:03
3 Pete ..Right on the button ..

Wee Eck is using this as a smoke screen for the failure of all his lalaland policies " I`ll just start another arguement with Westminster about the Oil and that will draw away attention for all the other daft idea`s they have found wont work.....the Punters always fall for that one "
and guess what ...They have ...
238

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 10:47:57
#254

You're starting to read like an embittered, chauvanistic, racist bigot now.

So the people of Shetland who cannot claim to have the same lineage as you are not GENUINE Shetlanders! How enlightened. What a long memory you have.

Well done. You've succeeded in bogging this thread down to your narrow minded level. I'm off! There's a Barite mine near me. Think I'll go and tell them to get their filthy hands off MY barite.
239

Geoff,

SA 30/05/2008 10:48:26
Good Day to you all! I posted some information on another forum yesterday and have mentioned it before as having reference to the debate. I am surprised(and also a little hurt) that no one seems to think it important,but here goes again- A BBC repoert of late last year stated that the Falkland Islands could be on the of a massive oil strike . It is reckoned that there could be between 5 and6 BILLION barrels for the picking(as opposed to approx 30 million remaining in the proven North sea redserves. The Falklanders are solidly BRITISH-not Scotch, Welsh,Irish or English. Should Scotland leave the Union then it is almost certain that the Falklanders would opt to remain with the balance of the british-sentiment apart,they would be in a position to defend the Islands militarily, Scotland would not. I do not buy totally into the argument that the current impasse is only about oil-far from it. But if Falklands Oil does get off the ground then this will almost certainly change the dynamic of this debate considerably-to say the least. I have never heard-in over two years of asking,any coherent SNP policy in this regard or indeed to do with the remining BRITISH overseas territories in generalother than the stock in trade-"subject to negotiation" answer. Many Nats on these forums deride them as a few lumps of rock in the ocean. The reality is that they comprise important banking centres,huge potential oil reserves,several militarily strategic bases not to mention two hundred thousand BRITISH citizens.

Anyone care to comment??
240

Alasdair,

30/05/2008 10:50:50
#174, sm753 - either you're a bit slow, or simple willfully obtuse.

You say:
"Take a look at the orientation of the England-Scotland border on land. It is fairly obvious that any maritime economic frontier would take off at fairly sharp north-easterly angle and would leave a lot of the oil (and most of the gas) on the _south_ side of it."
HA
HA
HA.
Seriously - THAT'S your understanding of how this works? My god.
You then say:
"And puh-leeze don't start pointing to mythical pronouncements by some vague "European Council" or decisions that, for administrative and health & safety reasons, the northern part of the North Sea will be regarded as coming under Scots Law."

I don't know what spurious decisons you refer to, however, I suggest you read:
1) The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968
2) Section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998.
3) The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order 1999
4) The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), sections on international principle of equidistance.

NONE of these are mythical. NONE of these are spurious EU equilvilents of bye-laws.

The Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction.

Please present your rebuttal.
And please do so with reference to actual laws, since I've been gracious enough to point you towards a few.
241

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 10:50:55
#264 ai1

And the people of the NE have a seperate Doric lanuage of the rest of Scotland, and have a more Pictish blooodline. I am sure they would do very well out of a border stretching from Stonehaven to Buckie, instead of their natural resourcess being plundered by Glaswegians..
242

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 10:52:10
270. Geoff, good day to you.

First, your stated figure for Scottish oil reserves (30 million barrels) is totally and farcically wrong, as that is about 19 days production. How typically unionist of you. Perhaps you would care to re-post with a tinge of reality?

Second, you are suggesting that Scotland may loseo ut on the benefits of an oil bonanza. That is exactly what is already happening today, with over £200 billion of North Sea oil revenues in the past 30 years, while in that period Scotland growth has been half that of other small European countries and a quarter of Ireland's.
243

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:52:27
269 Who's to say what was meant by a genuine Shetlander not you thats for sure not once did I mention lineage or race it was an assumption by yourself that shows you to be more concerned about such trivial things than i am.
244

jjungle,

australia 30/05/2008 10:52:54
#260 afraid i might have a bit of trouble convincing my australian wife who lived in scotland for ten years after meeting me in edinburgh while travelling for 6 months.she tried to get me to move for years convinced we would be better off here.i disagreed because im scottish and thats enough for me.have been here for just under 2 years though and wages have gone from 27000 gbp to 80000gbp funnily enough working in the oil and gas pipeline industry.so dont think so any time soon.
245

Alasdair,

30/05/2008 10:53:33
#270, Geoff - I hadn't heard that, please provide a news-source link.

Either way, I miss your point. This issue is not about a "balance of power" against England and the rest of the UK, it's about Scotland wanting to go its own way to the best of its abilities.
If the rest of the UK later profits greatly from Falklands oil, good luck to them.
246

Commited to Independence,

Scotland. 30/05/2008 10:53:47
270

If there were only 30 million barrels left in the North sea then it will dry up about this time next week.
247

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:54:58
271

Yes thats right you are an idiot.
248

Grant,

30/05/2008 10:55:40
#264

No, I know the History of Shetland that is widely written, by lots of people. Not some fairytale version where all Scots/English/British=BAD, Norwegians/Vikings/Danish=GOOD, which your prescription boils down to.

249

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 10:57:43
271

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea
250

ai1,

30/05/2008 10:57:48
never said the danes were good
251

DAMcK,

Lanark 30/05/2008 10:58:12
Alex, if you want to introduce LIT then go ahead. Stuff HMRC and the Treasury. Please don't follow their example and use the big software houses who overcharge, never deliver, use off-shore workers, use off-shore registered companies so they pay little or no Corp Tax.

There are plenty of Scottish companies very well equipped to hand the job. Keep it in Scotland!
252

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 11:00:17
278. Spot on Jackie. The Unionist argument seems to that because oil if finite, Scotland should not try to benefit from the massive revenues still flowing. Kind of like someone declining a massive lottery win because they would eventually spend it all....
253

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:01:01
#278 Jackie

Indeed. Sorry, I am not going to read the Neep Gazette, but I think that the oil argument is spurious. Norway has a similar standard of living to Finland, but Finland manages without the oil. It has more to do with how the country is run, and I believe that oil revenue would be wasted due to the Scottish mentality of bloated, poorly managed public services, allied with SNP tax cuts.
254

ai1,

30/05/2008 11:01:57
please enlighten me as to where you found your definative history of Orkney and Shetland.
I got my history lesson from those that lived it passed down from generation to generation not once did any of them have a good word to say about rule from Scotland.
A widely used Quote
"not much good ever came out of london but it is a hell of a lot better than ever came out of Edinburgh"
255

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:02:58
271

Ref 279 Sorry Alistair I meant to post to 174
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 11:03:47
285. Tin Man

oil revenues wasted? Indeed they already have been - £200 billion in oil revnues have by-passed Scotland in the past 30 years and we have had pathetic growth and under-investment in infrastructure in that period. Meanwhile Norway has twice topped the UN standard of living league, and has a sovereign oil fund now valued at £250 billion which will pay for investment in that countrie for decades ahead...
257

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 11:05:48
286. If people in Shetland or Orkney wish to leave Scotland I am sure they will vote for a party dedicated to that, and everyone will respect their democratic wishes. The SNP in the past stood down in favour of the OSM, which polled about 10% of the vote and argued for more devolved control...
258

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:09:57
270

Even if it were 1 million billion barrels Scotland would get the Barnett formula and England would get the rest. That is the union benefit.
259

,

30/05/2008 11:11:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
260

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:12:17
#288 Ayrshire Scot

For a start, oil revenue would be wasted setting-up unnecessary national government infrastructure that already exists.

Norway has very little to do with Scotland. Scotland is a predominantly urbanised, industrailised country that relies on the financial sector to a great extent. as far as I can make out, you are saying that Norway rrelies on it's oil-fund to a great extent.
261

Alasdair,

30/05/2008 11:13:16
#287, Commited to Independence - quite alright, I do the same myself!
262

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:15:37
#292 A Voice

Your dreams are laudable. How is all that going to happen, in practice?
263

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 11:17:38
#274 ai 1

Who's to say? You! Care to say what you did mean. Apologies if I misunderstood you. Please elaborate. I can assure you race and lineage mean very little to me. I come from a long line of refugees and outcasts. Shetlanders to Skye, and French Huguenots to Scotland.

'Ubi bene ubi patria' Where you're happy is where you belong.
Btw the boys at the barite mine just laughed and told me to go away!
264

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:19:42
#295 Jackie
Why is there 'no doubt about it'? I really don't see what the present administration has done to 'shake things up a bit'. Anyway, an onerous reliance on the public sector is the will of the people. That's what we want.
265

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:19:52
What is it with the so called unionists on these blogs and not answering questions. Dont they actually believe anything they post enough to back it up.
266

Geoff,

sa 30/05/2008 11:20:34
Ayrshire scot et al-thanks for your comments
Ayrshire Scot 273-thanks for correcting my figure-it was quoted by another poster a few days ago-on re-reading it is obviously wrong, but you and several others miss my point. It is not about being magnanimous toward the rump UK and wishing them well if the Falklands do prove a bonanza. I was wondering how the dynamic of the debate would change. despite what you say it IS about oil-ONLY about oil for many and certainly uppermost in the mind of the First minister. That being the case,do you not concede that a bonanza that is largely contingent on the Union continuing might influence hearts and minds?? Come on chaps. It most certainly IS about oil. That is not to say that there are not others who aspire to scottish Independence for other valid reasons, but if it wasnt for oil,do you truly believe the SNP would be where they are today?
276 Alasdair-google "Falklands Oil" and you will find this and other relevant links.
267

Commited to Independence,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 11:22:15
293

If national government infrastructure is unnecessary then why do we have one at Westminster and in every other Independent country in the world.
268

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:25:08
300

See my post at 291 to answer regarding the dynamic of the debate.
It would be intersting to see the UK build an oil pipeline from the Southern Atlantic ocean to an oil refinery in the UK.
269

Grahamski,

30/05/2008 11:25:32
218
But you're not a unionist, you're a nationalist. You can tell by your tasteless use of Iraq at every opportunity.
I know that nationalsts have a penchant for the odd untruth but to deny your core beliefs is pushing it, even for a nationalist.
In the meantime perhaps you could answer the question: Would you support an independence movement for Sheltand?
270

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:25:53
#300 Geoff

Indee. Goood post - it is intresting to see the upsurge in nationalism coinnciding with oil discovery. Along the lines of 'I want to divorce you because I have more stuff than you'. Which is petty, and debatable. Can'tt we have a more grown-up discussion?
271

James.com,

30/05/2008 11:26:31
If (when) Scotland votes for Independence the subsequent Treaty negotiations will be dragged out just long enough for the oil to run out.
272

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:27:43
303

It isnt the right of anybody outside of the Shetlands to support nor oppose it anymore than it is the right of anybody outside of Scotland to support nor oppose its right to Independence is it.
273

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:29:00
#301 Comitted

We alreeady have UK government infrastructure. An independent Scotland would then have to set-up Scottish governmental infractructure. Either tthat, or pay the restt of the UK to continue using the existing systems.
274

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 11:29:52
306
So you don't support Plaid Cymru?
275

True Scot,

Over Here 30/05/2008 11:31:51
Geoff post 300

Geoff, do you truly believe that if Scotland did not have the oil, westmonster would be holding on to Scotland as tight.
276

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:31:51
308

I dont vote for them.
277

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 30/05/2008 11:32:17
The sun is shining in independent Finland and family matters such as matriculation parties,sun,lake and sauna seem too hard to resist.However,one last observation for day.

I see that many posters are diverting from the topic,which is fuel poverty in Scotland,the SNP's attempt to find solutions, and Labours resistance to allowing Scotland to use a portion of its resources to reduce the problem.Many old chestnuts are being pulled out to divert from this topic.The divide and rule approach is very familiar to me.Shetland might want independence,borderers have more in common with those in the North of England than the Highlands etc.Well of course we can apply this argument to all countries.In fact we could say that London or the South East of England would be better off if they became independent.Applying this logic to Finland,Finns living in the north near the Swedish border probably have more in common than Finns living in South West Finland.In spite of this they still wish to be Finnish.The Aland Iseland in the Finnish Archepeligo is part of Finland but has been allowed to stay outside of the EU and is not required to take on the Euro.I think there is a model there for Shetland and perhaps Orkney.Alund has what autonomy it wants but benefits from the strenght of the Finnish economy.

The status of the northern isles is matter for them and a future independent Scottish Parliament.Winnie Ewing used to be their MEP since the islands were part of the Highland and Islands EU constituency.Discussions with her gave me the impression that the SNP were very sympathetic to any aspirations for autonomy that the islands might want.In fact,I believe that an SNP government would be sensitive to the needs of all Scottish Regions.

I would imagine that the paradox of having oil alongside fuel poverty is acutely understood in Shetland.It would be in their interests if the Scottish government were to succeed in prising some of Scotland resources away from Westminster.
278

Dan,

Peterborough, England 30/05/2008 11:33:37
#263 - the cost saving would be tremendous. Iraq and Afghanistan are conflicts that the UK can no longer afford financially. If the money were there for it, I would continue to support our presence, but it's not.

#305 - That would be classed as top grade cynicism if it wasn't likely to be borne out in facts.
279

brownlie,

30/05/2008 11:34:56
236 Keir Hardie

I take it from your monicker that you are not a New Labour supporter?
280

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 11:36:20
310
I wouldn't imagine any people outside Wales votes for them. In the meantime I take it by your ludicrous arguments that you recognise the inherent hypocrisy of an independence supporter not supporting an independence movement in Shetland.
When it comes down to it we are all unionists.
281

,

30/05/2008 11:37:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 11:37:13
If we were able to convert all of the meaningless hot air (ie drivel) vented on this forum, we wouldn't have an energy problem, would we?
283

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 11:37:56
315

So many words, so little substance.
284

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:38:38
#311 Suomi

Indeed. Idf Finland had oil, I hope stop being such a bunch of introverted grumps.
285

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:38:48
315

Mike Russell was brilliant yesterday the faces on the Labour benches looked like they had just finished licking vinegar from a roll of sandpaper.
286

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:39:34
316

Hot air from print now thats a neat trick.
287

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:39:35
Apologies foor my typing - can't get the hang of multi-tasking...
288

Dan,

Peterborough, England 30/05/2008 11:40:45
#311 - given what I know of Finland's history, you've been bounced between Sweden and Russia so often it's not much of a surprise at the amount of cultural bleed that has taken place. When I was last in Helsinki, (too long ago, if anyone get's a chance to go and visit, do so), the road signs were in both Finnish and Swedish. I would use Finland as an example of how it is possible to gain independence and still remain on freindly, (or freindly-ish in Russia's case), terms with your neighbours. It can be done, it just needs the right attitude from both sides.
289

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:40:53
317

Aye and no doubt your contribution will change all that being a wind up merchant troll kind of guy.
290

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:42:08
314

So would you support Scotland joining a union with Russia or China on principle then
291

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 11:43:16
#315 Commited

Great. So are you going to aanswer the question, or just continue to spout patriotic vitriol?
292

CLX,

ABZ 30/05/2008 11:44:11
#284,
The independence movement for Shetland and Orkney must be well hidden. During my many regular visits to the islands I haven't heard one bad word against the mainland (only on how much it costs to get there).
As for history being passed down through the generation, just like Chinese whispers there will always be some sort of distortion of what really happened.

Anyhoo, the islands are home to more South of the border cousins than London.... When will the ethnic cleansing start?????????

If you want it that much, make yourselves visible and go for it. I'll be waving from the mainland with a tear in my eye...not...
293

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 11:44:23
Walter 15: "Correct me if I am wrong and I am sure that if I am I will be corrected but do the North sea oil fields not lie in UK waters."

Walter No 15, the Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Act of 1964 (Geneva)delineated UK waters from European waters (by the Continental Shelf)but a later act CSJA 1968 (Geneva, ratified London) recognised that Scottish law should apply to Oil fields in the 'Scottish' sector so a line was drawn from Berwick to the Continetal Shelf. That line is 55 degrees 50 parallel north.

In short, our Oil lies in Scottish waters.
294

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 11:44:51
323

Damn it, Committed, you've got me sussed ... . Now who else can I bother on another forum ...
295

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 11:45:57
314
So you're being coy are you?
Not quite so keen to declare Shetland's inalienable right to self-determination, eh?
Can't think why....now what was it all those 'nationalists' were calling people who didn't agree with them? Unionist? That's what the independence movement in Shetland calls you...funny old world eh?
Speaking as a fellow unionist ain't it a drag?
296

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 11:47:07
Why is the oil factor always linked with Scottish independence?

Why not just give the Scottish parliament more financial powers and control over oil revenues, as the lib dems want? This would defeat the arguments of most SNP supporters who always go on about Scotland losing out on its oil income.
297

Dan,

Peterborough, UK 30/05/2008 11:48:56
#326 - Sound like Corby in Northamptonshire. A place so full of expat Scots who came to weork in the Steel industry, (before it got evisarated), that the shops use the Scots layout, best example, Iron Bru gets top Billing, Coca-cola gets second.
I'm looking forward to the SNP standing a candidate there.
298

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 11:49:26
#314 Grahamski

I don't think I've seen any pro independence posters coming out against a popular Shetland movement.

In all the time I've been reading these threads and your posts, I understand what you're against, but never got a handle on what you're for. What's your vision?
299

Jockdogma,

30/05/2008 11:49:36
I believe that Scotland should become independant as it may mean that the farce that is the Scottish Parliament pulls itself togther and becomes a suitable political forum rather than muppet show it currently is.
I don't however buy this "shot in arm" postion. It will take Scotland and its population sometime to come off its dependance on public sector employment and the welfare state and to return its popualtion to some standard of good health so that it does not stretch the NS to breaking point. Oil is not the key to turning scotland around but an outlook which engenders enterprise and a positive agenda which looks forward rather than being stuck in the mire of the past
300

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:51:44
329

Who are you posting to are you accusing yourself of being coy

325

Who are you posting to.
301

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 11:51:57
333

Well said Jockdogma. Utter tripe but well said.
302

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 11:51:58
Apart from the fact that the voters greatly appreciate the efforts of this SNP Government there are two more substantial reasons why Scotland will vote YES in the Independence Referendum.

The first is the continuing rise in the price of Oil. A rise not based on some 'fixable' short term problem a la 1970's but on the growing demand for Oil caused by the industrialisation of China and India.

This will not stop, it will increase the demands on a diminishing resource, this in turn will force the price ever upwards despite short term efforts to lower it.

Scotland can either sit back and watch the cash from its best natural resource flow to London in even greater amounts than before or it will say enough is enough, thank you but we will take it from here.

The second reason is beginning to unfold as we speak. It's the sorry state of a country which has consistently produced 10 times its own consumption of Oil based products for 30 years and still has 1 in 5 children in Glasgow living in poverty, more deprived areas throughout Scotland than you can shake a stick at and an infrastructure not fit for purpose in the 21st century.

Millions of words will be spoken and written between now and the referendum about the state of Scotland after Oil and Gas compared to Norway who discovered their Oil and Gas around the same time as we did.

And some of the most important of these words will concern the deliberate deceit of the Unionist parties to hide the truth about Scotland's wealth for 30 years.

The McCrone Report will be spoken of loud and often. By the time people vote they will have seen the SNP in action for 3 years and be conversant with facts which have been kept from them by Labour, Tory and Liberal politicians for 30 years. They won't like what they hear and they will vote accordingly.

VOTE YES
in the INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM 2010
303

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 11:53:24
333

The welfare state propaganda message put out by continuous union governments you mean.
You know the ones that never lie about anything.
304

CLX,

ABZ 30/05/2008 11:53:52
#331,
Am sure the way things are going regarding boundaries etc that Corby will one day have an SNP MP.
And Englandshire will be the biggest county of Scotland..hehe
305

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/05/2008 11:54:17
#270 Geoff

"Phil Richards, of the British Geological Survey, estimates that there is a one in five chance of finding commercially viable oil in the basin north of the Falklands, falling to a one in 10 chance in the south."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6501693.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6571431.stm

You might have to fight the Argies again if their is anything there. I would advising waiting till 2013 when you have a working aircraft carrier.
306

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 11:55:58
#333 Jockdogma

Well, there's always hope, isn't there.... I believe that what we see now is pretty much exactly what we get, post-independence, only further bolstered by oil revenues. If Scotland really did become even more awash with tax money, I can't see the public sector being re-organised in any way.
307

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 11:59:38
#338 Jackie

I would dispute that. The independence movement became popular, rather than a fringe movement, after the oil was discovered. I believe the two went hand-in-glove - I am sure you remember the SNP slogans from the '70's?
308

Geoff,

sa 30/05/2008 12:00:40
309 True Scot-I honestly dont think that the rest of the Union is "holding tight"to Scotland for her oil. The UK is not a dictatorship. Scotland will have a referendum and if the majority vote for Independence then Scotland will leave the Union unhindered and with the best wishes of virtually all of her former partners. I think there is truth in the argument that Labour especially rely on their Scottish seats but also as with other Unionists of all Parties and hues,we wish to "hold onto" Scotland as they are our close family and we do not want to see the family split. Please believe me when i tell you that this sentimental attachment to BRITAIN is a real thing in the minds of most Unionists. Very few have done the mathematical excercise re the value of Scotlands oil and factored this into their thinking.
309

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 12:03:25
#231 sm753

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Not only that but your opinion is quite frankly just that, opinions. I have no interest in discussing the matter with you any further and believe you should go back to your nice little padded room and wait for the nice doctor to deliver your medication.

Thank you Jackie for replying to that ignoramus about what was written.
310

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/05/2008 12:04:45
342

The Tin Man, I share your view on this matter. Until oil was discovered, the SNP consisted of a few tartan Tories. Now it consists of many tartan Tories.
311

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 12:05:21
Scotland doesn't need to be independent in order to take control of its oil revenue.

It is quite possible for the Scottish parliament to be given more financial powers and control over its oil revenue, as the lib dems, for example, advocate.

Surely this situation would be preferable to independence? It would allow Scotland to take control of its oil revenue without the need to spend a massive amount of taxpayers' money on the re-organisation of the infrastructure that independence would entail.

Or are SNP supporters just using oil as a smokescreen to try and gain more support for independence?
312

Grahamski,

30/05/2008 12:07:24
334
Yikes
Obviously I meant you but couldn't drag myself away from my own wonderful prose...in the meantime please don't be beastly to the Shetland independence movement...
313

Grahamski,

30/05/2008 12:08:06
332
They haven't exactly been falling over themselves to support it, have they?
314

Jockdogma,

30/05/2008 12:08:20
#337 I take it that your are not suggesting that the abuse of the welfare state is a myth, it is a UK wide problem of which Scotland has its share. An independant Scotland would need to develop a system which amended this position and didn't discourage people from working. the drain on the pucblic purse would be a drain on the hard fought oil revenues etc. My comment wasn't political just a case in point.
315

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 12:09:39
Tinman a wind up merchant agrees entirely with yer view how is that for an endorsement.
316

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 12:11:01
349
'An independant Scotland would need to develop a system which amended this position and didn't discourage people from working.'
This could have been said by Mrs Thatcher pre-1979.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
317

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 12:11:49
348

Like I said its not for us to support nor oppose it is it. Wouldnt want the English voting for or against Scottish independence especially as it would be their votes and theirs alone which would decide the issue.
318

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 12:12:32
Are you really a plonker, and unable to engage in reasoned debate?
319

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 12:13:40
349

No I am not suggesting it I am stating it as fact and here it is again THE ABUSE OF THE WELFARE STATE IS A FABRICATED STATE OF FACT PUT OUT BY LYING GOVERNMENT BODIES FOR POLITCAL PURPOSES.
320

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 12:15:30
#343 Geoff

I don't think anyone has problem with the other peoples of the union, who probably don't give a t**s about the union, other than Scots and Irish unionists.
The problem is with westminster, who I'm sure don't want to retain control in Scotland because they love us as family.
Just heard on the news of newly released documents detailing how the McMillan govt smothered the facts on the ill effects of smoking, because they didn't want to lose the tax revenue. Hmmmmm!
321

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 12:16:34
352
Don't be ridiculous. As a supporter of independence you support other independence movements don't you?
You just can't face up to the fact that on the subject of an independence movement for Shetland the Scottish independence supporters who do not support it are guilty of the most heinous hypocrisy. Fact.
322

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 30/05/2008 12:17:36
It is 30c in Salo,Finland and my wife is dragging me away from my computer.Before closing down:

#Tinman,Sorry,I don't have a clue what you are trying to say and don't have time to explore with you what this has got to do with fuel poverty and attempts to use some of Scotlands resources to reduce the problem.Hope that the weather is as nice where you.It seems too good here (as my Finnish wife is still reminding me) to sit in front of a computer.

#322 Dan,Your point is a good one.Finland was owned by Sweden and then Russia,It has an excellant relationship with both countries.It is interesting that Finland(population 5 million and no oil) is helping Russia (largest country in the world) economically.This should certainly make some people back home think.

By folks,I'm out of here.Finnish women are very persistent.
323

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 12:19:44
352

Taking yer arguement at face value and taking it to its logical conclusion you are therefore telling us that you would support Scotland being a member of any union with anybody is that right.
Its union on principle and not support for a specific union is that your arguement.
324

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 12:21:03
#357 Suomi

My apologies. I have met lots of very pleasant Finn's - It is just that they didn't want to live in Finland, but I am sure it is a lovely place. Hi-hi.
325

Noxious,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 12:22:05
#3 Spot the odd one out.

Its Wale's coal.

Its Lancashire's industrial revolution

Its London's financial markets.

Its Scotland's oil.


Yes, All have contributed to UK prosperity over the last 300 years but only one has been claimed as uniquely owned by the area in which it originates.

Selfish aren't we


Hmm - interesting observation, but rather naive.

When Wales' coal ran out the mines were shut and people who relied on this for their livelihood were left to rot. Likewise with the traditional industries in Lancashire and similar working class areas all over Britain. When the oil runs dry in Scotland, we'll be left high and dry by Westminster - they might even grant us independence once we've little natural resources left to prop them up.

Anyway - forget about it being Scotland's oil, how can you justify the fact that Britain, as an oil producer, is suffering from just about the highest petrol prices in the world - we should be benefiting at present compared with non-oil producing companies. Heaven help us all when the oil does run out unless we start investing seriously in alternatives - which is where the Labour government should be directing some of the current "windfall" instead of squandering it on short term bribes to try and cling on to power.
326

steve52,

Kinfauns 30/05/2008 12:22:21
London needs the extra money from oil revenue to help pay for the Olympics. Brown needs the extra money to pay for wars. Gorbals Mick needs the money to pay for MP's expenses.

How can Gordon Brown or any of that lot with their noses in the trough say they know what ordinary people are suffering. That lot dont pay for anything, we do, the tax payer.

The very least Scotland should get a share of this extra revenue.

Scotland has been supporting the UK for many years now and its high time we went it alone. As for those unionists, what are they doing to help the people of Scotland? Nothing at all. Just looking after their own interests is all.
327

Silence of the Yams,

30/05/2008 12:24:23
Scotland's oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
328

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 12:25:40
As far as I am aware these are the argument for an against an Independent Scotland:

For
Greater Autonomy
Better Representation in International Matters
Greater Self Determination
Higher Standard of Living
Lower Fuel Costs
Better Investment in Infastructure
Less Involvement in Wars
Higher Employment
Increased Global Respect
An Ability to Set Taxes
Short to Medium Term Increased Tourism
Faster Decision Making
Better Investment in Natural Resources

Against
Loss of potential money to be made in Iraqi Oil and Gas
Loss of potential money to be made in Iranian Oil and Gas
Loss of potential money to be made in Falklands Oil and Gas
Loss of a 300 year old successful union
Loss of an established bureaucracy
Loss of Tourism from 2012 Olympics
Loss of British Passport

If there is anything I have missed please add.

329

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 12:26:29
356

Scottish Indepedence supporters must support Indepedence on principle and not just specific to their own needs whereas Unionist supports can support a specific union based on what they perceive as being for their own needs but dont have to support unionism in principle and you dont think thats hypocricy.

thats another question by the way see if you can set a new trend by answering it this time.
330

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/05/2008 12:26:57
#362 Jackie

I guess we have to agree to differ on that one. Maybe the SNP had significant support in the '60's - I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Anyway, it is of no matter.
331

True Scot,

Over Here 30/05/2008 12:31:30
Geoff Post 343

Hi Geoff, Sorry mate but I don't have any sentimental feelings towards britain, and believe me it is not just about the oil, but the way my country has been treated for 300+ years
1. Scotland's men, arguably the best soldiers in the world, have been used as cannon fodder by sucssive westmonster governments over the last 300 years
2. Where ever you, as a Scotsman, go on this plant you are being mistaken for a englishman, and I, for one, am feed up explaining the difference between the two.
I do not wish any harm to come to england but I firmly believe that it is time Scotland took it's seat between Saudi Arabia and Somalia at the UN as an Independent country.
I see that there is an sa behind your name whereabouts are you JHB CPT
332

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 12:36:17
356
Squirm all you like, it doesn't change the fact that when it it comes down to it you are unwilling to support others who only want what you do.
333

,

30/05/2008 12:37:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
334

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 12:37:25
Scotland doesn't need to be independent in order to take control of its oil revenue.

It is quite possible for the Scottish parliament to be given more financial powers and control over its oil revenue, as the lib dems, for example, advocate.

Surely this situation would be preferable to independence? It would allow Scotland to take control of its oil revenue without the need to spend a massive amount of taxpayers' money on infrastructure re-organisation that independence would entail.

Or are SNP supporters just using oil as a smokescreen to try and gain more support for independence?

If you truly believe the Scottish people should have more income and better prosperity surely this would be a better idea than full independence as it would cost far less to the Scottish taxpayer.
335

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 12:37:46
364
Silly boy.
336

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

30/05/2008 12:38:24
Being a supporter of the SNP it is odd for me to criticise them, but I do find the current argument a little flawed. Firstly if Salmond is protesting against the extra tax revenue gained by the Treasury, and this is due to the price hike combined with tax then his only recourse to win over the hearts and minds would be to cut the said tax burden. Thus the extra revenue would fall, or if he cut it further disappear. Therefore staying popular = less tax... The only way to have stable income from oil is for the state to own or at least partially own the producers, this approach through would be seen as too socialist for the UK. But yet seems to work quite well in almost every other country except the US.. which of course prefers invasion to nationalisation.

I think the approach of Putin is the right one, i.e. return the (partial) ownership of oil to the people of the said country.
337

kimba,

30/05/2008 12:40:48
364.Loss of country, salmond will take scotland into EU super state, Scotland would in effect become extinct.
338

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 12:41:34
#371
Strange Boy
339

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 12:42:08
This is desperate stuff from two men who really should know better.

The "It's Scotland's Oil" debate is like the arguments from the 1970s. I actually thought the SNP had moved on from such simplistic bulls**t but obviously they have not. By playing that card they are just playing to the lowest common denominator.

Darling could also have easily diffused the whole debate by stating that the he would review the issue of fuel tax in October's mini-budget. Instead he just stoked the fires by dismissing the demands out of hand.

As for LIT, I think it's a debate he should stay well out of - it only gives ammunition to the SNP that Westminster are interfering in affairs of the Scottish Parliament. In any case, his focus on the financial services industry is not one that is going to particularly resonate with the voting public. Personally, I think there are stronger arguments against the LIT proposals but would be best left to the opposition parties in Scotland to present not the UK chancellor.


340

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 12:43:09
#369 A Voice

Under EU rules, you are perfectly entitled to go and live there. Goodbye.
341

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 12:45:03
#374

Scotland is already in the EU because Westminster took us there. Potentially in a vote, Scotland may not join the EU. Once Scotland is Independent we would be able to choose if we want to rejoin the EU as an Independent Nation.
342

kimba,

30/05/2008 12:47:40
This from the Herald Tribune: John Hutton, Britain's business and enterprise secretary, authorized two new oil field developments and said he planned to help companies extract reserves from previously unprofitable parts of around 30 existing fields.

The decision was announced after talks in Aberdeen, Scotland, between Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Treasury chief Alistair Darling and members of Oil & Gas U.K., a trade body for companies operating in the North Sea.
343

Jockdogma,

30/05/2008 12:48:11
Easy #354 its just a debate, I just find it hard to believe that everyone is using the benefits system in the way it was intended, but don't want to upset you anymore so I will accept your point as "fact" as you sound like your are about to have an episode
344

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 12:48:49
#378 Ryan

No we wouldn't. What party is proposing a referendum on EU membership?
345

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 12:48:53
376
Mr darling has been dragged into this debate by the SNP's ill-conceived and illegal LIT proposals. HMRC are apparently going to have to collect this tax. So the SNP say. Problem is, the SNP haven't actually discussed it with them.
Pretty poor show all round. This kind of behaviour is acceptable from an opposition, however completely unacceptable from an administration.
346

kimba,

30/05/2008 12:52:21
cont from 380,can't see salmonds name mentioned,or anyone else from the snp!
347

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 12:54:04
The fact that no pro-independence posters have responded to my post (#370) clearly shows that their argument regarding oil is merely a smokescreen.
348

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 12:54:54
383. Grahamski - you Labour types do give us a chuckle.

The SNP government has just started a consultation process on an LIT - surely it would be appropriate during this consultation to phase to gather data and "consult" - or do you think the SNP should have consulted on LIT before the consultation?

As for "illegal" you Labourites really do get confused. Wendy Alexander illegally took illegal donations. Labour have admitted to 120 counts of illegality over sleazy donations. A high court judge recently described Labour illegal election fraud as "disgraceful even for a banana republic". These are illegalities - the LIT is a policy proposal.
349

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 12:57:36
#382 The Tim Man

Apparently the SNP... Seemingly...

www.snp.org/node/7544

Hence I doubt that they would shy away from a referendum on EU membership if Scotland were to become independent and thus not be privy to the agreement made by Westminster with the EU...
350

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 12:57:37
#380 Kimba

How exactly is Darling going to "help". Tax break or peerage? And in what way will any of us benefit from this. Certainly not lower prices. The oil producers know exactly what's there, and will sit on it till it suits them.
351

kimba,

30/05/2008 12:58:09
378.Under SNP plans Scotland would be dissolved into the EU Superstate now under construction,The SNP seek to get sovereignty from Westminster and give it straight to their masters in the EU instead. Think scotland is getting a vote,think again!
352

monkey man,

30/05/2008 12:58:42
Holyrood has shown the Scottish can govern themselves, but only with English people's money. They would be bankrupt within a year without it.
353

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 12:58:53
#383 Although he is technically involved through the HMRC link, politically I think it was not particularly astute of him to respond as he did.

It just plays right into the Nats hands. They will paint it as another Westminster politician interfering in Scottish affairs.

By the way - if the issue was the HRMC - he could have legitimately raised that particular issue.

He didn't though.
354

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 12:59:33
390. Odd is it not that the UK is running a massive budget deficit. Bankrupt?
355

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 12:59:37
Jackie Priest (372): "PLus the fact that Scotland is under the shadow of England

I find it implausible that Scotland is losing tourists because of the incorrect belief that it's just like England. However, I suspect that Scotland will see a decrease in tourism after independence. After all, looking at VisitScotland's website below, there is the important point that many of the tourists spending money in Scotland are English tourists:

http://www.visitscotland.org/research_and_statistics/leisure_visitors/uk_ireland_profiles/uk_ireland-market_overview.htm

What will happen to these tourists after independence? Will they be attracted by slogans such as "It's Scotland's oil! It's time! Freed from England's shadow at last!"?
356

pwd,

Borders 30/05/2008 12:59:44
It's Britain's oil!

When North Sea oil and gas were first discovered it was obvious there was great wealth in the North Sea but to the vast majority of Scots it was never 'Scotland's Oil'. Scots were a more robust breed then, very British and Scottish, very proud of both and very conscious of decency, standards and obligations as well as rights. To commit the ultimate act of selfishness and proclaim something was entirely ours and shun, for the sake of a fast buck, our fellow Britons in Wales, England and Northern Ireland, with whom we had shared nationhood and values for a very long time, was something inconceivable. That a people could be made of such stuff may be difficult to understand for those Scots twisted with xenophobia and with a pathetic and misconceived sense of victimhood (it's the English!) but the fact is this: we knew the situation then and had no intention of clamouring for independence to grab for ourselves what was British, just as, say, Welsh anthracite or English gas was British.

Now there might be a short lived increase in the bonanza and the "it's Scotland's oil" brigade are making a noise again. Scots are still too honourable to fall for that, except perhaps the 17% of the electorate who voted SNP at the last Scottish election.

It's Britain's oil!
357

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 13:00:54
#387 Ryan

Thanks for the link. That is a proposed referendum on the EU reform treaty, which is commendable, but it is not a referendum on EU membership. I believe that the SNP have no intenttion of bringing the question up.
358

Arfur,

30/05/2008 13:00:55
caption for Darling

"Pull my finger"

WWWHHHHARRRRPPPPHHHHHH
359

People Get A Grip ,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 13:00:59
Taking into account some of the above it is like listening to people talking about football teams and the pathetic arguments people are trying to come up with to out do each other!!

In reality there is not that much wrong with life in the UK today sure alot of things could be better and things also could be far worse. Look at Ireland now for example in the Euro, also independent I for one know many people who have left, want to leave or feel stuck, with the way prices have rose there.

If Scotland was independent have people considered that the previously UK companies might and probably will charge more for many services and commodities that we all take for granted at present. We at present all have a strong bond within the identifiable Union, yes it can be annoying if some Scottish or English is mistaken for the wrong nationality I can understand that but that is just naivety on other peoples parts. You go on holiday and you have most in common with other British and Irish people wherever they come from and when your abroad it doesn't seem to make a difference why should it now.

There are an awful lot of English people that live in Scotland and vice a versa lots living in England some where whole communities are Scottish. Are people considering all this that they would want a country to be independent for what reason. Scotland is good as it is now, if it is not broke do not fix it. Also overall taking into account the present makeup of Scotland I 100% believe it would a clear majority by some margin of people wanting Britain to remain the same. 300 peoples views on here are not the majority and I think the SNP are playing a very dangerous game which will eventually make them look very unprofessional and not truly a voice of the Scottish people.
360

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:01:54
394. Why not follow your own logic - Its Europes Oil! Its the World's Oil! Strange that the UK never met the UN target of %GDP for foreign aid isn't it, given it is so selfless and had £215 billion in oil revenues....
361

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:02:20
368

At least yer honest enough to admit yer squirming.
Thats a start.

376

So you think Scotland should deny its our oil then you think we should be happy to hand it over to be used outside of Scotland in exchange for the Barnett formula how does that fit in with yer need for Federalism as opposed to devolution dont other federalist states not control their own natural resourses then.
362

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 13:02:22
#385 and 370 Tellen

If you re-read the article I think you'll find that what you propose is exactly what Alex Salmond is demanding.
363

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:04:20
398. The UK government has decided that students in England should pay fees. If that is objectionable to you, I suggest you change that policy rather than try and get the Scottish government to pay for the consequence of that policy.
364

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:05:27
397

"If Scotland was independent have people considered that the previously UK companies might and probably will charge more for many services and commodities that we all take for granted at present."

Any example you would like to share?
What UK services is it we take for granted and dont pay out of the nose for?

365

,

30/05/2008 13:07:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
366

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:07:59
394

Then why isnt the revenue shared throughout Britain then?
Scotland doesnt get a share of the oil revenue once again Scotland gets the Barnett formula.
367

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:09:36
Ayrshire Scot (399): "Strange that the UK never met the UN target of %GDP for foreign aid"

Why is this strange? Almost all rich nations refuse to spend the UN target of 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid, typically being in the 0.2% to 0.4% range. In other words, the UK is fairly typical; see, for example:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#Almostallrichnationsfailthisobligation
368

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 13:10:51
#405 A Voice

Indeed, but why did so many of your fellow Scots vote Labour?
369

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:11:35
407. Strange in the context of the post I was replying to, which decried the "selfishness" of Scotland seeking to benefit from its oil wealth, and which said the UK was self-less in nature. Just wondered why such a self-less country, so against oil revenues being used by Scotland doesn't share the bounty?
370

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:12:37
409. If the government of English students thinks it right that they pay fees, why should the Scottish government provide free education for them?
371

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 13:12:56


It's the old sovereignty chestnut again. From which the unionist pro status quo point of view is looking increasingly tenuous.
372

brownlie,

30/05/2008 13:13:44
303 Grahamski


"But you're not a unionist, you're a nationalist. You can tell by the way by your tasteless use of Iraq at every opportunity"

What may be tasteless to you in your blind, narrow-minded and obsessive belief that the union can do no wrong is a matter of life and death to many Iraqis. If you do not believe me ask any of the 5 million who have been forced to leave the country.

So the fact that I abhor the murder of innocents in Iraq makes me a nationalist, does it? So only nationalists share that point of view? More respect to them then.

Actually your statement is a gross insult to the many unionists in this country who share my views and are still horrified and alarmed by the atrocities still raging in that country due to the illegal invasion.

As a matter of fact I did not mention Iraq in my posting at 218. I referred to WMD and 45 minute warnings.

If you, or indeed anyone responsible for those atrocities, find my postings tasteless or offensive I could not be happier.

I will continue to exercise my right to criticise anyone, whether nationalist or unionist, and if you contribute ridiculous postings you can expect to be ridiculed and you will be.
373

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 13:14:11
That was meant for

#394 pwd borders.
374

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:14:58
Who else realises that "The Federalist" "Fairfax" "Grahamski" and "The Tin Man" all work for the Scotsman and its their job to keep us posting on here.
Look at the quality of their posts they are not even trying to debate or follow a logical argument to its conclusion. This entire forum is a farce.
375

,

30/05/2008 13:15:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
376

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 13:16:59
#389 Kimba

That is just unsubstantiated gross speculation and crazy rhetoric. I am telling you this fact again. Scotland is already in the EU because of the agreement made between Westminster and the EU.

#390 Monkey Man

Laughable. It's Scots that are running the UK at the moment.

#392 Ayshire Scot

Agreed

#393 Fairfax

I disagree, I think that due to independence and the global news coverage that it will receive, an increase global awareness of Scotland as a tourist destination will cause an increase in revenue from tourism. Please see post #364.

#394 pwd

Maybe, but I think that due to the downturn in the Empire and how it has affected our economy, it is right that the break up of Britain should take place so we are able to focus more clearly on problems close to home. Unfortunately that means we loose "English Gas" and "Welsh Anthracite", but it gives us an ability to focus our resources on High Unemployment, High Poverty, Terrible Infrastructure, etc. It also gives us an ability as a people to throw the shackles of corrupt governance, petty bureaucracy, while allowing us to distance ourselves from illegal and immoral wars fought for allies that have quite literally "lost the plot".
377

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:17:42
"Who else realises that "The Federalist" "Fairfax" "Grahamski" and "The Tin Man" all work for the Scotsman and its their job to keep us posting on here."

Oh please! I'm an English mathematician in Cambridge, with Scottish friends and family, who supports the dissolution of the UK. Why would the Scotsman create such a persona?
378

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:18:30
417 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9oRPhuhqxQ
379

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 13:18:52
#415 Commited

You really are a plonker, aren't you? Do you seriously believe tthat people are paid to write in the comments section of newspapers?
380

Saruman,

30/05/2008 13:19:42
“It’s oor oil!” Not the most sophisticated of arguments in favour of the Nats’ separation agenda, but a tried and tested one that appeals to the baser instincts of their supporters. The sad thing about all this is that they just seem completely unable to grasp that the vast majority of Scots just don’t think in those narrow terms.

Also, how sad for the Nats that Darling has decided to belittle poll tax 2 by implying that even they have apparently ceased to take it seriously, as there have been no enquiries to the Treasury regarding how it could be implemented. When your opponents attack a policy in this way, you really know it’s in trouble…
381

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:21:48
Ayrshire Scot (403): "The UK government has decided that students in England should pay fees."

That's true. To be more precise, the UK government won a vote to introduce fees in England in which Scottish Labour MPs' votes were crucial -- to their credit, SNP MPs abstained.
382

,

30/05/2008 13:22:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
383

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:23:30
423. Alistair Darling, who could not "re-write the budget" and who said it was impossible to redress the impact of the 10p tax debacle this financial year, and then did so and he crumbled under pressure, and who dithered on Nortern Rock and now has invested £100 bn in it, being such a credible opinion....
384

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:23:32
421

No I think they are paid to work for the Scotsman whether they clean the toilets or write editorials is irrelevant to the fact that they post on here in order to justify charging for advertising space.
Or maybe you have a better explanation for your inane stupid moronic unrelated posts?
385

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 13:25:08
#426 A Voice

Have fun with your paranoid delusional construct, and enjoy the fishing
386

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 13:26:14
Always beware a politician who changes his/her hairstyle. Shona Robison has has a de-curl. Whose job is she after? Swinney's? Sturgeon's?
387

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 13:26:49
Committed to Independence? You must therefore commit to Orkney being independent if the residents so choose. If they take their oil, then what will pay for the massive social welfare and civil service bills in Scotland?

Until you have satisfactory answers to such matters then you are committed to a dog's dinner; in which case you should indeed be 'committed' if only for your own good.
388

The Tin Man,

30/05/2008 13:26:50
#428

I'm off to clean the lavies. Bye all.
389

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:27:32
425

No the introduction of NEW international law is written by negotiation. Present standing International law is not. Present standing law can be added to but not subtracted from.
Get back into the real world and stop basing yer posts on wishful thinking and the wonderful world of Disney.
390

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:28:00
Jackie Priest (422): "You find it implausible because you have never been in a position to see that this is the case."

That's a fortiori true. In fact, my experience has always been the opposite: most of my foreign friends and colleagues seem to be aware of the Highlands, say, which implies awareness that it's rather different from England. I have never heard anyone suggest that Scotland is just like southern England.

"you do realise that after independence there would be no need for slogans such as "It's Scotland's oil! It's time! Freed from England's shadow at last!"

No logical need, certainly. However, I suspect we'll see lots of Scottish schadenfreude whilst oil prices are high.
391

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 30/05/2008 13:28:31
431

Well spotted Lance. I would think that, after his blunders, it will be Swinney's.
392

David MacVicar,

web 30/05/2008 13:30:44
376 The Federalist.

Its interesting you mention the 70s. In case you hadn't noticed we are entering a fuel crises similar to that of the 70s, with strikes already across Europe.

The underlying truths of the problems and their solutions have not changed. Our understanding of the facts have increased.

Facts: Scotland produces about 10 times more hydrocarbons than it consumes.
Scotland has no control to take any of the 4 billion extra in revenue that the treasury is taking in.
Scottish industries are particularly badly hit over the high process.
The UK government is doing next to nothing to remedy the problems.
====

As an oil producing country, producing 10 times what we consume it is simply unacceptable that this situation is left to continue as is.

The UK government has completely failed to tackle these issues in any way that helps the people of our country.
If the UK government does not do something then we need to take the bull by the horns.

Meanwhile Labour and Tories are still strutting along stating that Scotland is subsidized in terms of identifiable spending and Cameron stating 'we will treat you with respect'.

Why are they not standing up for our fisherman and other interests and communities worst hit by high oil TAXES and prices?

Meantile the Chancellor "Darling criticises local tax plan". UK chancellor, relegatd to the Scottish section of the BBC web page. He is the UK chancellor, representing the UK, any intervention he makes is a UK political issue.

The UK is a total fraud and is does NOT act in our interests, whatsoever. IT overwhelmingly acts against our interests. Anyone who disagrees with that statement could maybe show anything that the UK government has done in the last 3 decades that has favoured Scotland over anywhere else? Whereas there are many examples showing policies favouring the South.

Secutiy council, UN, EU influence unionists say?
Influence to do what - Sell our fishing, start the Iraq war, put Nuc
393

monkey man,

30/05/2008 13:31:12
Exploiting the emotions of the educationally sub-normal who believe they are watching a factual documentary called Braveheart on a loop might make them vote SNP, but this can only work for so long.

The average SNP voter is obviously dumb, but not so dumb as to vote for genuine independence outside the EU. They don't have the real bravery to do that.

They know they need an economic crutch to live off, so just swap the British Union for the European Union to be perennial benefit junkies.

394

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 13:31:15
431/436

Lance/Patrick, how about Hyslop? She's made a right ba's of the smaller class idea.
395

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:34:07
432

What difference would it make to anybody in the Orkneys if I committed myself to their Independence or not it wouldnt make an iota of difference as I wouldnt have a vote or say in the matter either way unless I moved to the Orkney and registered as a local voter.
Are you committed to federalism on principle or only to Scotland remaining within the Union you cant commit to both.
396

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 13:35:15
#398 Janis B

First of all, I was initially accused of being a NAZI. As such I replied, albeit a little abusive, but none the less justified. Secondly, I actually spent quite some time answering AM2's questions and then posted it, by which point the server had timed out and signed me out and I lost the reply. I then had to go eat and did not have enough time to set out the reply, however I do believe that Jackie answered the question for me stating exactly the same points as I stated in my reply. Thirdly, although I was rather patronising towards Kimba, stating she was immature I at no point stated her posts were unacademic.

I did state however when asked on my opinion if people in England should give their opinions on Scottish Independence "No, only in an academic manner".

Does that help?
397

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:35:23
Janis B (429): "why couldn't Mr Salmond extend the same EU students' monetary privileges to English/Welsh Students, as was promied"

I assume the reason claimed was cost. However, this suggests the following problem for Scottish universities: if Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU, then discrimination against English and Welsh students would become illegal, in which case Scottish universities will see their income reduce.
398

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 13:35:47
439

David, I remember the 70s, particularly 1979 when the SNP, to their eternal shame, conspired with the Tories to bring down the Labour Government. Number of SNP MPs prior to 1979 election - 11. Number of SNP MPs after election - 2. Good decision, eh?
399

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:37:19
446

Do you still have the miniuts of the meeting where this conspircy took place?
400

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 13:39:37
#400 & #401 I checked to see what I wrote - but no - I didn't say anything that you two implied I said.

In some ways we are seeing history repeat itself.

The "It's Scotland's Oil" argument is one that the SNP used in the 1970s and, for a short time, it worked - the February 1974 election (22% of the Scottish vote) saw 7 SNP candidates returned, rising to 11 (30% of the Scottish vote) in October. That campaign too came on the back of rising oil prices (the 1973 oil prices shock) caused by the Yom Kippur War, resulting in rising inflation coupled with high unemployment and recession.

And we all know what happened to the Nats after that . . . 2 MPs and 17% of the Scottish vote wasn't it?

Such a simplistic argument may work for short-term gain but ignores the broader arguments for more fiscal powers for Scotland. Yes - it's great that Scotland has this natural resource but it should not be the over-arching raeson for seeking fiscal autonomy.

In my opinion we should have fiscal autonomy whether or not there is oil. That's why I made the comment about the SNP not seeming to have changed. I genuinely thought that they had moved on in terms of the debate - that they could broaden the debate because the Scottish electorate are able to understand the more complex issues in favour of fiscal autonomy.

But now - I despair - it seems that the SNP have gone back to their old populist selves - just as they were actaully looking like finally getting rid of that label.
401

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:40:18
446. What did you think of Labour MSPs voting with the Tories to oppose council house building in Scotland last month?

402

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 13:41:28
#415 I don't work for the Scotsman.
403

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 13:41:43
446

"miniuts"? "conspircy"?

The SNP submitted a motion of no confidence. The SNP voted with the Tories. The SNP lost 9 of their 11 MPs.

Clever or what?
404

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:43:20
448

And your denial is worth what?

450

I suppose it could be argued that it isnt really work.
405

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 13:43:33
449

Ayrshire, despicable that's what I think. What did you think in 1979?
406

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 13:43:48
#423 Saruman

"The sad thing about all this is that they just seem completely unable to grasp that the vast majority of Scots just don’t think in those narrow terms."

Agreed.
407

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

30/05/2008 13:45:02
#452 I have a theory some people on here masquerade as nats just to give them a bad name - you look like a prime candidate to me.
408

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 13:45:12
413
Good to see I've pricked your conscience. Maybe the next time you seek to score cheap political points to advance your pathetic agenda on the back of very real suffering you might think twice....
409

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:45:13
451

So the Tories didnt vote with the SNP then?
Or the SNP didnt support Labour then?
Or the Tories didnt support Labour then?
410

David MacVicar,

web 30/05/2008 13:46:29
446 Robert Mason
Your post is nothing but distortion and deception. How very unionist of you.
411

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:46:31
453. I was 6 years old.

But in 1979 did not a Labour MP include the despicable and undemocratic 40% rule to a referendum on home rule, and did not various Labour luminaries campaign against Scottish devolution such as Robin Cook, Briam Wilson, Tam Dalyell and Neil Kinnock?

Should the SNP then have accepted Labour's betrayal to deliver on home rule because Labour MPs were blocking it?
412

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 13:47:55
459
A Thatcherite apologist writes......
413

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:48:13
454

True enough the thinking is much much more broad minded and reasonable and it will take us to Independence unless of course it reverts back to the narrow minded unionist agenda of self deceipt.
414

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 13:49:12
460. What do you see in this picture?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/fivelivebreakfast/BrownandThatcher.jpg
415

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 13:49:23
The Federalist (448): "it's great that Scotland has this natural resource but it should not be the over-arching raeson for seeking fiscal autonomy."

I disagree. I would take the view that the size of oil income is sufficiently great to render trivial all other reasons for fiscal autonomy. With oil income, Scotland can (whilst high prices endure) fund a large public sector and welfare state, both of which would be under threat if (as I hope) a Conservative government is elected when Brown deigns to consult the voters. Without oil income, an independent Scotland, or a Scotland with fiscal autonomy within the UK, would be forced to shrink the bloated public sector and welfare state -- whilst I would support that in any case, there is little support for such change in Scotland.
416

monkey man,

30/05/2008 13:49:30
Scotland couldn't survive as a stand alone independent state and for all his bravado Salmond knows this, that's why he'll never put his money where his mouth is for REAL independence. Scotland just doesn't have the resources to do so. Its place is either within the British Union or the European Union.
417

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 13:51:25
463

And if the so called bloated welfare state turns out to be just another political fabrication on par with unemployment figures immigration figures and oil revenue figure what happens to your arguement then?
418

Ryan Findlay,

30/05/2008 13:54:03
#464 Monkey Man

Wheres your evidence? Do you have any? Or are you just speculating?
419

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 13:58:01
462
Whatever, no matter how you squirm you will forver be damned as having helped deliver the devasting era of Thatcherism.
Almost unbelievably the nats are at it again. Their supporters can't wait for the next Tory government. They are quite prepared for us to be devastated again if it helps move on their own narrow political agenda.
Pathetic and arrogant.
420

ldopas,

cheshire 30/05/2008 13:58:10
292 A Voice From Scotland;o))

Ah the voice of the utopian naive, great to read but totally out of touch with the real world. Lets see...

"Oil is but one component of that picture. A very good starting base that is being stolen from us."

Stolen. Oh please. Well can we have back the huge premium that you nation has got over and above the english, generated from the powerhouse that is the South East of England. Stolen? I think youve done pretty well economically out of the union.

"Time and time again this thin desperate argument is deployed by those seeking so desperately to derail the coming independence for our ancient nation."

Ancient nation? Are you Simon Schama? We all belong to ancient nations.

"And time and time again people like me tell you that an independent Scotland will have the full range of resources at it's disposal, resources that are artificially suppressed due to our nation being controlled by another nation that has only the interests of the larger nation at heart."

I think you should check how the unions turnover is doled out first before you say that, get some facts on board. You have resources and apart from the issue of Oil (which incidentally you dont pay for the extraction costs, which you should repay all parties involved, its ok to talk revenues but forget costs).

"Oil is but one resource amongst many available to us. We are well placed in Europe for example to exploit our abundance of renewable energy resources. if you take as one small example, Peterhead carbon capture would if we were independent be going ahead."

Well who's stopping you now? Thats a fey excuse. We big bad baby eating English arent stopping you doing very much these days anway. Forge ahead with renewables, dont use us as an excuse for your lack of action.

"Our fishing industry would be under our control and thriving not being sold to the highest bidder and boats being scrapped."

Typically you are blinkered to the fact that quotas and fishing
421

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 14:02:05
Committed to Independence (465): And if the so called bloated welfare state turns out to be just another political fabrication on par with unemployment figures immigration figures and oil revenue figure what happens to your arguement then?"

In that case my argument is further reinforced: if the Scottish welfare state turns out to not be bloated, then oil income would become yet more dominant in Scottish economics.
422

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:02:17
468

Na It was the Scottish unionists who imposed Thatcher on Scotland and kept her there for 10 years the Nationalist all voted for Independence as usual.
Another union dividend and if Scotland doesnt vote for Independence soon we will have another 10 years of Tory misrule to plague us.
The choice couldnt be clearer.
423

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 14:02:49
471
If only it were that easy, eh?
Still, in your independent utopia I'm sure you'll get to wear a very fetching uniform....
424

People Get A Grip ,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 14:03:01
To 404:

To answer your question, have you thought about all the companies that are in our high street, telecommunication companies I am talking about all the companies that serve Britain currently. If Scotland went independent would all the services we have got now remain the same, the obvious answer is no they would not. Would a phone call from a pay phone remain the same price, when you cut yourself off and change the way you do things which is what becoming independent will do as Scotland will want to do things it's own way will all the services we have now got in place that we take for granted multinational companies Tesco, Asda Argos etc not levy more charges to serve Scotland and do business here. I am all for making sure we as a country safeguard what we have got but it is obvious when you look at the bigger picture that Britain is powerful and has a voice as it is now, you change this and with Scotland only being a small country it will get much less say in things! I for one am not prepared to take that risk and if you put it to the vote Independence will lose by a large majority. So I would be happy to see a vote on independence as it will fail as that is not what people actually want.
425

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 14:03:39
#467 Janis

So do you agree with sm753 and his opinion on posts #231 (removed due to actually causing offense) that all Scottish Nationalists are NAZI's?

Its a yes or a no answer so please keep it short.
426

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:03:53
472

It would certainly be a lot more dominant than the pittance derived from the Barnett formula thats for sure so why would that be a disadvantage to Independence?
427

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 14:04:43
468

Grahamski, you are spot on. Of course, the danger for the SNP is that, with the Tory revival, many recent SNP converts will revert to voting Tory.
428

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:05:55
475

Are you suggesting that the prices of all UK services will not increace if Scotland remains within the Union but will only increace in Scotland but not the rest of the UK after Independence? and if not then what are you trying to suggest?
429

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 14:06:21
473
That's a new twist. Just deny it completely and it will go away. A tip, if you stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalalalala very loudly that'll help too.
Back in the real world the nats delivered Thatcher and are salivating at the prospect of another Tory government. Tartan tories, eh?
430

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 14:07:50
#469 ldopas

As may not already be aware of. No Nation pays for the costs of extraction. That is covered by Privately owned companies. I am sure however that if we did offer to pay them for the costs they paid when setting it they would tell us to take a hike, as they make more money out of it.
431

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 14:07:53
Committed (477): "so why would that be a disadvantage to Independence?"

It wouldn't be a disadvantage: I'm not arguing against Scottish independence, which I support. The original point made was (essentially) that oil should not be the primary concern in questions of Scottish independence or fiscal autonomy. I argued that it should, simply because of its size -- you seem to be agreeing with me.
432

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:08:24
480

If I do that then everybody will think I am just another unionist troll pretending to debate the issues on these blogs.
433

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 14:10:12
480. Odd, I thought the electorate of England elected Thatcher, and that Scottish unionists preferred Thacther Tory government to an independent Scottish government.
Indeed, as the Tories have been in power for a large majority of the last 60 years, Tory UK government is the norm for the Union, so all Unionists must quite like UK tory government?
434

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:10:32
482

I dont believe for one second that Scotland needs the oil revenue to succeed as an Independent nation but it would be idiotic not to use the resourse to its best effect as an Independent nation is that your stance?
435

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 14:10:34
480

Yes Grahanski, they can't wait for Salmond to have his picture taken with Prime Minister Cameron on the steps of 10 Downing Street prior to a meeting of the Madsen Pirie Appreciation Society.
436

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 14:12:16
480. Poor old Labour things like Grahamski, trapped in a time warp, always looking backward, alienated by the Thatcherite, Trident buying, Iraq invading, inheritance tax cutting, 10p tax abolishing, ID cards and detention without trial loving right wing policies of his own party, and totally unable to accept their defeat last May, they just splutter incoherence and bitterness on internent forums. Ah bless
437

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 14:12:28
485

Ayrshire, when did you last vote Tory?

Let me guess your response - "I have never voted Tory in my life. I am a lifelong SNP supporter".

But you can't all be telling the truth ...
438

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/05/2008 14:13:11
487. From the Times "Lady Thacther was embarrassed by praise lavished upon her by Gordon Brown...."
439

monkey man,

30/05/2008 14:15:31
#466

The evidence is Alex Salmond's silence on demanding a truly independent state ouside Westminster and the EU.

If he has the courage of his own convictions why won't he make this simple plea.?

He is a coward of the worst kind in looking for Scotland be either dependent on Westminster or Brussels.

Also, this simpleton garbage that simply because Scotland didn't vote Conservative under Thatcher then it shouldn't have had a Tory Government is laughable.

Does this reductionist politics mean then if a certain part of Scotland votes differently from the majority party in Holyrood then "Holyrood has no jurisdiction" over it.? Crazy stuff. ! lol
440

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 14:15:36
485
No matter how hard you try and twist and turn you just can't get away from the fact that you helped Thatcher into power can you?
You're just going to have to deal with it. Not the best era for teh self-styled lefties of teh nationbalist movement. But you know what they say, if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas...how's that itching come on?
441

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:15:47
491

And lets not forget Tony Blairs praises for Maggie and her policies.
442

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 14:15:58
#490

I dislike being called a NAZI.

So, are you going to be a mensch and answer the question?

No of course not, you're going to be a coward and run.
443

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 14:16:05
489

Robert, an interesting point. Do you know that Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University has estimated that 63% of those who voted SNP in May 2007 had voted for other parties in the past?
444

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 14:17:26
Committed (485): "I dont believe for one second that Scotland needs the oil revenue to succeed as an Independent nation"

I agree. However, without oil revenue, I believe that Scotland would need to shrink its public sector and welfare state provision, taking Ireland as an economic model. I approve of such reduction in any case. With oil revenue, Scotland can continue to expand its public sector and welfare provision, if that is the wish of its citizens, taking Norway (say) as its model.
445

Dan,

Peterborough, England 30/05/2008 14:17:51
Ryan:
Against
Loss of potential money to be made in Iraqi Oil and Gas - at what cost to gain it?
Loss of potential money to be made in Iranian Oil and Gas - depends if you like your Iranian oil and gas to be radioactive or not. Until the world accepts Iran with the respect they want, it's not happening.
Loss of potential money to be made in Falklands Oil and Gas - compared to the cost of extracting and transporting it, and where will that be processed? Probably Argentina, so Net Benefit to Scotland - 0
Loss of a 300 year old successful union - define successful.
Loss of an established bureaucracy - That's a loss?
Loss of Tourism from 2012 Olympics - and loss of the associated costs, again, no net loss for Scotland
Loss of British Passport - Doesn't matter, unless you break away from the EU, it'll still be an EU format passport.

I will probably regret admitting this but...

The only person on these discussions that is connected with the Scotsman is me. And I work for the parent company, the trolls and blowhards you love to complain about are all home grown. Sorry.
446

Ananurhing,

30/05/2008 14:18:31
And there you have it folks! Examples of the attitudes that have been holding this country back for centuries, manifesting as monkey man, Robert Mason, and Patrick O Reilly.
Has anyone else noticed how Mason and O Reilly pop up at the same time?
Mason......O Reilly......Larkhall......Coatbridge?
United in defence of the union?
447

Lance Boyle,

Linlthgow 30/05/2008 14:18:55
494

Committed, it is a well known fact that those who refer to Thatcher as "Maggie" hold her in high esteem. Come clean - you are her greatest fan, aren't you?
448

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:19:19
496

People in England switch from voting Labour to Tory and back again frequently its why we get changes in Government. I have heard that pattern of changing party allegiance is common across the world.
449

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2008 14:20:19
488
I take it you have just abandoned trying to defend the indefensible then....
450

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:20:26
497

Only if you believe the current stats on welfare spending.
451

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 30/05/2008 14:22:51
#492 Monkey Man

Again, thats speculation. Do you have anything concrete?
452

subrosa,

30/05/2008 14:23:04
# 73

I think you're right Traquair insofar as Brown & Co want to get as much out of the North Sea as possible right now. That's what crossed my mind when I heard about them being in Aberdeenshire this week. 'Grab it while we can - ensure as little as possible is left for Scotland'. Disgusting behaviour and I do hope Alex Salmond will do something about it although his hands are quite tied.
453

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 14:23:04
502

Committed, that's the English for you - is that is what you are saying?
454

Tellen1,

30/05/2008 14:23:51
#439

"The UK is a total fraud and is does NOT act in our interests, whatsoever. IT overwhelmingly acts against our interests. Anyone who disagrees with that statement could maybe show anything that the UK government has done in the last 3 decades that has favoured Scotland over anywhere else?"

Er....Didn't the UK government allow Scotland to get its parliament, surely thats an example of the UK government doing something for Scotland?
455

Fairfax,

30/05/2008 14:24:27
Committed (504): "Only if you believe the current stats on welfare spending."

I can certainly see no reason to doubt the current statistics on welfare spending, but presumably you do. What percentage of Scotland's GDP (including oil) would you estimate to be allocated to the public sector and welfare provision?
456

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 30/05/2008 14:25:03
506

Subrosa, Salmond's hands may be tied but his knowledge of the oil industry is far better than theirs. After all, he was an admin assistant in RBS's oil department for a couple of years.
457

monkey man,

30/05/2008 14:27:10
The Scots are the worst appalling, embarrassing hypocrites around regarding Margaret Thatcher.

They ludicrously like to spout garbage that they "stood up to Maggie" whilst like everyone else in the UK they all bought their council houses and bought shares in the then newly-privatised public utilities, as when gas was privatised.

Scotland's individual private wealth today is all due to Thatcherism. There is no escaping that fact.
458

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 30/05/2008 14:27:13
499

Ananurhing, what are you suggesting?
459

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 14:27:17
509

Why cant you doubt them? the sourses are Government derived and are all party political and the track record of UK party political sourses shows clear evidence of lies and deceipts why should these stats be trusted when othe