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Independence: SNP 'to keep asking until voters give right answer'

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Published Date: 16 July 2008
THE SNP candidate in the Glasgow East by-election sparked a fresh row over Scotland's future last night, when he warned the Nationalists might not accept a No vote in a referendum on independence.
John Mason, who is a Glasgow councillor, said the SNP could go on asking the people in successive referendums until it got the answer it wanted – a view which puts him at odds with Alex Salmond, the First Minister.

"When you ask someone to
marry you, sometimes you have to persist," Mr Mason said during a campaign visit to a community health shop in the Barlanark area of the constituency.

He quickly added that he did not expect to have "another referendum the following day" if the Nationalists lost the first one.

However, his remarks contradict Mr Salmond's view on an independence referendum.

The First Minister has stated a referendum is a "once in a generation" event and around 20 years would have to elapse before the independence question could be put to the people again.

Mr Mason's remarks are all the more embarrassing for the SNP leadership as he is a self-declared hardliner within the party.

Asked earlier this week about his approach to independence, he replied: "The whole SNP wants independence, there's no question about that – I think we all take a hard line."

The SNP's political opponents seized on Mr Mason's comments to claim he had proved the Nationalists were only interested in one issue in the by-election – breaking up Britain.

David Cairns, the Scotland Office minister, said: "These comments prove Councillor Mason is more hard line than Alex Salmond. He is the extreme face of nationalism.

"It demonstrates he is obsessed by one issue only, to the exclusion of the concerns of ordinary people in the East End."

Mr Mason's comments represent his first real slip-up in the campaign. So far, he has followed the party line and not deviated from Mr Salmond's view on anything.

However, he has now placed Scotland's constitutional future in general and the SNP's plans for a referendum in particular at the centre of the campaign.

Mr Mason tried to spend yesterday focusing on the growing problem of fuel poverty, praising the Scottish Government for the number of central heating installations it had carried out last year and its plans to extend health checks to more people.

The SNP candidate said he would be writing to Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, setting out an eight-point plan to tackle fuel poverty.

If Mr Darling was not prepared to come to the constituency to discuss the issue with the voters, said Mr Mason, then he would take his argument to the Chancellor.

Stewart Hosie, an SNP MSP, is expected to push this same message when he raises the issue of a fuel tax regulator – cutting the tax when the prices go up – in the Commons later today.

Meanwhile, it also emerged yesterday that Margaret Curran, Labour's by-election candidate, had inadvertently asked Mr Mason to vote for her.

Ms Curran sent a leaflet to voters in the constituency, asking them to vote for her, to help her stand up for them.

As Mr Mason lives in the constituency, he received a leaflet from Ms Curran.

A spokesman for the Scottish Labour Party

said: "Margaret Curran is fighting for every vote – literally. She is writing to every single person on the electoral register to set out why she will be the strongest possible voice to stand up for the East End.

"If Councillor Mason hasn't done this, then more fool him."





Page 1 of 1

 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 15/07/2008 22:50:52
It’s a bitter irony that John Mason should use a marriage analogy when actually he wants a divorce. In fact, he once said that breaking up Britain is his only reason for being in politics.

Here are his exact words:

“I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I’m opposed to.”

But is Mason really “more hardline than Alex Salmond”? I have my doubts.

What Salmond actually said about the timing of repeat referendums was “in my view it’s a once in a generation thing”. In his view.

When pressed on whether or not that was a cast-iron guarantee that the SNP wouldn’t seek to grind us down with damaging “neverendums”, Salmond wryly said that he wouldn’t always be in control of his party.

At that point it was clear, to me at least, that his comment was little more than a confidence trick, intended to send a false signal about how relaxed the nationalists are about their independence agenda.

It’s clearly part of a broader strategy. Another example is the SNP’s preferred referendum wording, which sugarcoats the question as if the public would simply be asked to sanction a gentle series of exploratory fireside chats involving Holyrood and Westminster buddies, rather than brutal, high stakes negotiations with no holds barred and the likelihood of protracted legal proceedings with no predictable outcome.

But I digress. The cat certainly is out of the bag as far as John Mason’s core motivation is concerned. So if the people of Glasgow East imagine that he genuinely cares about the bread-and-butter issues on which his pre-cooked rhetoric touches, they should think again. His only reason for being in politics is to break up the country.
2

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 00:03:16
I joined the SNP for the simple reason that I want to see an independent Scotland.

Is that a problem AM2???
3

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 00:10:39
Typical of the SNP, they are democracy-hating tyrants and professional aggitators. They care nothing of wasting public money for their narrow minority interests.
4

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 00:12:08
Not at all, Jimmy. But if you were in politics for that reason alone, it would be reasonable to ask if you could also be a good representative.
5

ThomasP,

16/07/2008 00:14:45
I support the Scottish National Party because I feel an Independent Scotland can do far much better as an Independent country.

Is that suprising?

You know what, I suspect other within the Scottish National Party may also feel the same way as I and they also feel an Independent Scotland is better determining her own future.
6

,

16/07/2008 00:16:55
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7

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 00:17:31
#3 Tripod

For reasons with which I won't burden you, I emailed a forum contributor and the name on the email account leaked out. I betrayed nobody. Now, please feel free to criticise the substance of my post, but personal slurs only serve to indicate the paucity of such argument.
8

,

16/07/2008 00:18:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
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9

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 00:19:43
9 ThomasP

I do enjoy when the SNP supporters call someone an idiot and then make a stupid point.

Parliamentary time costs money, the time costs money, both in real terms and in opportunity costs. Failed bills cost money.

Do you understand a little better. I am laughing at what you must be thinking now, there is no defence to your glib remarks. LOL.
10

ThomasP,

16/07/2008 00:20:10
#1

For the SNP to encourage Scottish Independence, then Scotland must be confident and successful.

Mr Mason will be a great representative and I am confident that Mr Mason will do the best for Glasgow to put back the confidence that Labour have destroyed over the years.
11

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 00:21:12
The national conversation costs money.

The Islammegafest 2009 costs money.

1,000 extra police officers costs money.

Guess which one the SNP identified as Scotlan'd top priority?

Guess which two these professional agitatirs delivered.
12

clan_mackay,

16/07/2008 00:21:14
compliments of order-order.com

tinyurl.co.uk/nlql

13

,

16/07/2008 00:24:10
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14

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 16/07/2008 00:24:27
Labour must be hard up if they have had to drag AM2 back out.

Is this a U-turn or a relaunch ?

As for the SNP working steadily towards independance , the clue is in the name.

Why is this news to the Scotsman ?
15

John PM,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 00:25:01
Mason is right and Salmond is wrong and if any SNP leader said they were giving up on independence for a generation they would be out on their a*se.

Remember party policy in the SNP is up to the party members not newspapers and not the party leader.

16

ThomasP,

16/07/2008 00:25:30
14#

The Calman Commission costs money...
17

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 00:25:34
#13 ThomasP

For years, the SNP has been trying to sell the idea that their nationalism is inherently “positive” and that anyone opposed to their agenda is pessimistic, fearty, lacking in self-confidence, untrusting of their fellow Scots, etc.

I think there’s a growing realisation that this is yet another a con trick. Bluster, swagger, empty bravado and windbaggery. Yep, that just about sums it up.
18

,

16/07/2008 00:29:02
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19

FrancesP,

16/07/2008 00:29:29
#1. AM2 - "When pressed on whether or not that was a cast-iron guarantee that the SNP wouldn't seek to grind us down with damaging 'neverendums', Salmond wryly said that he wouldn't always be in control of his party."

What are you talking about, man? He didn't 'wryly' say anything, it was a statement of the bleedin' obvious! "Alex Salmond claims not to be immortal - shock, horror".

What he did make abundantly clear was that, for as long as he IS leader of the party, his own view that a referendum is once-in-a-generation will hold sway. Of course, the rather silly 'neverendum' jibe originates from Quebec, and ironically the once-in-a-generation policy is perfectly in line with what's happened there - referendums in 1980 and 1995, and no prospect of another one until and unless the PQ get back into power, which will be a few more years at least.
20

ratzo,

16/07/2008 00:30:04
Hardline British Nationalism has not often been a positive force in Scotland and it offers nothing in the way of a positive future. By contrast the post-nationalist version offered by the SNP within Europe is precisely one of the most positive and progressive of current political philosophies.
21

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 00:32:06
#26 FrancesP

Thanks for the laugh. :-)

Anyway goodnight, CyberNats! Don’t forget to get some sleep so you can wake up bright and breezy for another day of accosting the decent, unsuspecting folk of Glasgow East with your fantastic spin. ;-)
22

,

16/07/2008 00:32:31
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23

,

16/07/2008 00:33:26
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24

ThomasP,

16/07/2008 00:35:28
#22

You've pretty much spoke of your own opinion.

I cannot possibly comment on what the SNP have tried to do for the past 80-odd years when the Party was created.

I doubt you are over 80 years old either and you should be unable to comment on how the SNP has painted their Nationalism during the times they existed.
25

walter,

16/07/2008 00:36:03
What a difference, Mason wants the people to vote for him "not" because he intends to represent them but because he wants to break up the union.
Curran on the other hand intends to represent all the constituents even those who are standing against her for other parties.
It is about time the SNP accepted the fact that just because they win a seat where more than 2 parties stand they do not represent the majority over a one issue policy when the other parties all agree on that policy.
26

John PM,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 00:36:48
David Cairns said "He [Mason] is the extreme face of nationalism". No I think you'll find that's the BNP.

Also who is really impressed with a British imperialist nationalism which threatens the world with Nukes while hypocritically demanding no-one else has any?

Scotland wants equality with other nations. That's normality. It's not unusual (I hate to break it to the Scotsman and the increasingly dim Labourites) for an SNP candidate to support independence!

Everyone in the party does. Mr Mason is telling the truth while his opponents are onto their usual bucket of scaremongering and lies. Sad pathetic stuff but do we expect any better? Not really.
27

Iainbroch,

Moray 16/07/2008 00:37:21
Liebaah mail drop - haar! haar! haar! My ribs hurt!

No need to explain that to those with intelligence, I see at least one idiot who would not appreciate the idea of a mail drop in Glagow at this time!

Wheres the other eejit?
28

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 16/07/2008 00:37:58
Das Schottishman is trying to dictate the by-election agenda using fabricated news. Do they really want to open up this subject? I mean given that over 80% of the population want a referendum and all.

I mean Curran doesn't know what to say when asked if she wants a referendum or not. Labour are in disarray on the subject.

This really is the amateur and lightweight banality that we've come to expect from this propaganda sheet.
29

John PM,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 00:40:47
Oh and the SNP (yawn) does have other policies as we see every day with their work in the scottish Government... Is this really the standard of debate?

"Curran on the other hand intends to represent all the constituents even those who are standing against her for other parties."

All good MP's represent their whole constituency and the fact is that statistically the SNP's are by far the most active.
30

Guga II,

Rockall 16/07/2008 00:46:38
AM Squared.

Why is it that you never criticise the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party for their single-minded policy of keeping Scotland subservient to the English?

Why is it that you never criticise them for their blatant lies, sleaze and corruption? You were, for example, very quiet about The Mouth of the South breaking the law (by her own admission, too). I also don't recall you criticising them for their dodgy, lying expenses claims. Not that you're biased.

I can, however, understand why you, as a Northern Irishman, have a fixation with the Union, but why do you expect the people of Scotland to follow suit?

As for anyone in the SNP having the motivation to break up the defunct and archaic Union, how is that letting "the cat out of the bag"? The greater majority of nationalists in Scotland have always wanted to break up the Union; it is no big secret. We do not wish to remain as an English colony, to be exploited by our colonial masters; again, no big secret.

Incidentally, I also thought you had stated that you were no longer going to participate in discussions on these boards. What made you change your mind?
31

Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 00:49:10
39
All the money he saves on his Council tax thanks to the freeze, he is entitled to a wee dram, dae ye no' think Ken?
32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/07/2008 00:49:48
AM2.

In your numerous posts, so far, you have attempted to suggest that John Mason will not make a good MSP for the East End.

This is, very obviously, YOUR very obviously blinkered opinion.

You, but more importantly the voters of Glasgow East, know that he is an extremely good political representative, as evidenced by the fact that he received the HIGHEST NUMBER OF 1st PREFERENCE VOTES, of any candidate, in the GCC Election 2007.

AM2, where did he achieve this? Could it have been in the East End of Glasgow?

Why do you do it, AM2? Why are you intent on making yourself look so foolish?
33

Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 00:51:48
41
It's an addiction Guga.
I really should be going to bed now as I have work tomorrow...but just one more post...
34

,

16/07/2008 00:55:31
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35

monkey man,

16/07/2008 00:56:15
Mr Mason's comments shows the palpable desperation of the extremist separatists of the SNP. The SNP have no chance of winning Glasgow East even when Labour are in complete disarray. The real Scottish people are showing they don't want the SNP, not now, not ever.!
36

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 01:01:56
50 Tripod

All you SNP boys whack it, you are master-debators on this forum.
37

,

16/07/2008 01:02:03
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38

Royster,

16/07/2008 01:02:24
#27. Yes, it's so progressive it leaves our country indefensible and a total non-player in European and international affairs.
39

monkey man,

16/07/2008 01:02:25
Even the thickest of the wee Bravehearts should be getting the message by now that if they can't defeat this battered and bruised Labour party at present then they never will. The SNP are already in free-fall never to return....
40

Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 01:02:54
Good Morning Tripod.

(I won't beggar you if you don't mind:)
41

Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 01:08:11
51
Wow, what an original insult, do you mind if I copy you ONAN other thread 1ST?
42

TommyKaye,

UK 16/07/2008 01:09:14
So Labour have been cuaght out lying again eh.....


http://www.order-order.com/2008/07/exclusive-glasgow-east-labour-fakes-93.html

Oh dear it is on a blog but it will be mainstream news by the end of the morning.
43

Kim McLaggan,

McAdam 16/07/2008 01:12:26
For the first time in many years the SNP can change the face of Scotland for the better,a fresh new start or the same old false promises the old line parties continue to tell the people.Time to discard the horses blinders and go for the SNP win,nothing to lose thats a given,if the SNP dont live up to there mandate vote them out next election.
44

,

16/07/2008 01:16:15
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45

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/07/2008 01:20:15
It's great to see NuLab bringing their Blogging "A" team into play.
46

Statsman,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 01:22:46
Nationalism is our last line of defence against the crooks wanting to ruin this country. The sooner people realise that, the better.

What have Labour done for the people of Glasgow East. What would the Tories do for them?

It's all a false Labour/Tory paradigm with the same interests only caring about the super-rich in London.

The SNP are not the answer to everything but we need change. You don't get change by choosing the same thing over and over.
47

Comment is Free,

U.S. 16/07/2008 01:23:10
A few things.

1. At least Mr. Mason is honest.

2. Ian Paisly actively campaigns for the up-keep of the Union and Britishness.

3. Gordan Brown actively campaigns for the up-keep of the Union and Britishness.

Logical Question:

If the UK purportes to support anything close to freedom of speech (yeah it took 1776 for Scots to get some of that again, now if only heave-ho-lets-go would work again in 2011, woops that comment may get me locked up in the Tower like it did Queen Mary), then why is Mr. Mason being criticized for his honesty? He is supposed to have the same rights as the Unionist campaigners is he not? He openly stated he wants the opposite thing they do. What of it?
48

indune1,

Canada 16/07/2008 01:26:53

Pi**es me off that we/I can't comment on the Khadr thread.
49

Guga II,

Rockall 16/07/2008 01:39:25
#64. We can't comment on a lot of threads, not even about African fruit.

The Hootsmon Pravda Branch and Xinhua Branch censors don't like to give us much leeway; free speech is dangerous (in their opinion).
50

Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 01:39:42
58
Heh, Not on this paper it won't.

Evening Dunnie, and Goodnight, been up far to long fending off bridgedwellers.
51

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 01:40:39
63

Freedom of speech.

Mason does have freedom of speech, the Scotsman has freedom of speech to criticise him for using his freedom to speek in a distasteful way, everyone has freedom to criticise this professional agitator.

Another simple concept totally lost in the mind of an SNP supporter.

Free to speak, free to criticise people for what they say. Ironically it is you trying to supress free criticism of this silly little man.
52

indune1,

Canada 16/07/2008 01:43:03

66 - sorry I missed you old friend. Pleasant dreams.
53

John Muir,

Botany Bay 16/07/2008 02:05:31
The Newsnicht interview with John Mason was as follows, about six minutes in:

“So you are a hardliner on the question of independence?”
“I think the whole SNP wants independence. There’s no question.”
“You take a hard line?”
“I think we all take a hard line.”

See for yourself at tinyurl.co.uk/hm6t

This is then twisted by the Liebour propaganda machine to be John Mason is "a self-declared hardliner within the party”. How can supporting a policy that EVERY SINGLE member of your party wants make you a hardliner? The policy is in the manifesto, for gawd’s sake!
54

John Muir,

Botany Bay 16/07/2008 02:22:49
47, 52 I agree. LibDem guy actually seemed like a good bloke. Scotland sorely needs some credible opposition.

I suppose it can only happen when our political elites stop going to London to be part of someone else's government.
55

Iainbroch,

Moray 16/07/2008 02:23:41
To all free thinking liberated Scots - sweet dreams and have a great day tomorrow - it is coming yet for aw that.
To the dim wits on the take - fall under a bus! Or stick your peckers or some other part of your anatomy in an electric socket if you cant wait that long!
56

Edward,

16/07/2008 03:04:58
When I saw the headline, I knew it just had to be YET another SNP bashing story from Hamish MacDonnell
No doubt breifed by a Labour spin doctor. Does Hamish not have a life? He really should get one!

I found it funny though that John Mason received a leaflet from Margaret Curran as he lives in the constituency. Sadly Margarte Curren will not receive ANY electoral leaflets through her door as sh doesnt live in the area
57

Edward,

16/07/2008 03:14:12
Hamish must have missed the story carried accross the rest of the papers about control freak Brown's idea of having every phone,e-mail, text message on a national data base. But then again that would have put Labour in a bad light.
Questions should be put to Margaret Curran about this, allthough I doubt that Hamish will do that
58

Royster,

16/07/2008 03:21:46
#63. FYI Queen Mary was never locked in the Tower. If you want to comment on UK affairs, at least get your facts right.
59

An Beal Bacht,

16/07/2008 03:27:27
70 - John Muir, Botany Bay 16/07/2008 02:22:49 wrote:

"47, 52 I agree. LibDem guy actually seemed like a good bloke. Scotland sorely needs some credible opposition."

This was the guy who, during the debate, cited a report that argued Scotland was getting too much money, and reminded viewers his party advocates a review of the Barnett Formula. He also said on Newsnight tonight that he could work with the tories, but not with the SNP, because they want independence for Scotland? Didn't I read that the challengers for the leadership of his party in Scotland were sending out feelers in just that direction? Did no one brief him?

Aye - he's slick, but no friend of Scotland.
60

JimC,

Kilmarnock 16/07/2008 03:40:53
Hard to believe some of the comments by the hootsmon. They would have us believe that Independence was the only issue in this by-election. Grasping and straws spring to mind. BTW for anyone interested, I set up a new site for Scottish opinion and debate the other night at caddis.co.uk its open to all political persuasions.
61

W Smith,

Middle East 16/07/2008 03:43:16
Gerri Peev wanted the First Minister to go to Red Ken Livingstone for advice.

Aye, right.

Like Ken is some sort of expert.

He's an expert all right - in corruption.

He spent hundreds of millions of pounds on jobs-for-the-boys pet projects and now he's being audited.

I wonder if The Scotsman will run the story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2302818/Mayor-of-London-Ken-Livingstone-%27squandered-millions-of-pounds%27.html

LOOKS LIKE DAVID MARSHALL WAS AT LEAST TAKING KEN'S ADVICE, EH GERRI?
62

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 03:51:36
Lets put this to bed once and for all so the num-nuts can sleep peacfully at night.

The SNP constitutional preference is Scotland as an Independent monarchy.

The Unionists costitutional preference is Britain as an Independent monarchy.

Both of these are nationalist views - just vewing different nations or conglomerations of nations. 'British' is as 'nationalist' (construe any dark overtones you wish) and 'Scottish'.

The Labour party,like the Libs, Tories and SNP have individual policies within their constitutional preference.

It is absolutely disengenious to narrowly portray the SNP who have governed with skill and agility over many policy areas as a single issue party.

So expect the unionists to keep on doing it.

63

SNP hypocrisy,

16/07/2008 03:57:22
Whatever happened to democracy? We all new the SNP thought this way anyway, nice of this political light-weight to let us know what they were secretely thinking. However the majority in a democracy is always right, and whenever a minority government tell us otherwise or that the majority is wrong - then the SNP would face a backlash which could only be termed a revolution. I really hope they keep talking this way! Know your enemy Scotland, he has several chins, very smug grin, think everyone else (the majority) is wrong and that somehow he will get you to think as he does. Reject the SNP! Vote tactically wherever you live and boot these arrogant undemocratic SNP clowns out of office.
64

,

16/07/2008 04:08:48
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65

McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

16/07/2008 04:32:17
This SNP Mason guy shouldn't have used chasing a woman for her hand in marriage as an analogy, he should have sighted the example of an immature, rude little child who hasn't learned how to behave yet.

Can I get a puppy daddy?

Can I have a puppy daddy?

Can I have one now daddy?

I want a puppy daddy, please daddy?

Bwaaa ha ha, I wanna puppy!! I wanna puppy!

Can I dad? Can I have a puppy daddy?

Can I have one now daddy?

Can I have a puppy daddy?

A cat then daddy?

I want a pony daddy!
66

Traquir , Alba,

16/07/2008 05:12:57
I remain amazed at how naive the Unionistas are to believe that we nationalists will just roll over
and give up our aspirations for Scotland to become
a free nation in her own right should
we ever get a no vote in a referendum.
They all appear to have been have taken in by the
tactics of the brain the size of a plant Wendy Alexander (aka "Scotland's, the UK's
the World's, the Universe's Most
Inept Political Leader" - see tinyurl.com/3llxyq).
Like their dear ex-leader they follow a herd-like
instinct of stupidity. We nationalists will
NEVER give up - so hard luck, but just
to prove that we believe, unlike
our Unionist brethren, in a level playing field
we are willing post-independence to allow
the Unionistas to have as many referendums as they
want to ask Scotland to voluntarily join a Union
with England for the first time. Of course no
other country that has left the British Empire
has pursued this opinion so I suspect it may
be a bit of challenge :)

I see the sycophant David Cairns is calling
John Mason "the extreme face of nationalism", perhaps
he was having a chat with Mr AM2 who yesterday
called John Mason a "supremacist". The Unionistas
as this point are reaching real lows in their
desperate battle to save their inviolate Union.
"the extreme face of nationalism" is something
that should be reserved for the BNP and
terrorist groups such as those that operated
in Northern Ireland. To compare a fully democratic
and peaceful party like the SNP with real
extremist nationalists is absolutely abhorrent and
apologies should be forthcoming if these type
of people have any respect for democracy and
common decency.

AM2 is so blind with hatred for Scotland gaining
her rightful place as an independent nation he
can't even see the irony in his own statements.

"Bluster, swagger, empty bravado and windbaggery."

Per Burns, AM2 would indeed benefit from
"the giftie gie us tae see oorsels as ithers see us".

Saor Alba


67

Royster,

16/07/2008 05:30:37
#83. Why do you want to return to mediaeval kingdoms that have a very poor record of success?
68

Pilrig.,

Livingston 16/07/2008 05:35:28
"Extreme face of nationalism" ? Now who was it who wanted us to fly Union flags from flagpoles in oor gairdens ?
69

Pilrig.,

Livingston 16/07/2008 05:36:48
Clue - the pension snatcher
70

Pilrig.,

Livingston 16/07/2008 05:39:29
Another clue - the guy who reneged on his promise to give us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
71

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 16/07/2008 05:44:00
Beware the thin end of TORY objectives. Cameron [a Scot] state he/they will raise more taxes when re-elected. How much more in the field of mis-management, mis-spending and now aiming to meet the Labour's spending spree.
I hope DC keeps his ideas of further taxes to England
72

Traquir , Alba,

16/07/2008 05:45:47
Here is the original now deleted page of
the Margaret Curran lies about 93 year old
veteran Mr McGuiness :

see - http://tinyurl.com/5sfn38

This is how the page looks now after they have
been caught out yet again with blatant lies
and deception.

see - tinyurl.com/6l2vh5

The four "slips of tongue" referring to
Mr McGuiness now refer to Mr Hipson - wouldn't
it be hilarious if Mr Hipson turns out to
be an SNP voter :) Also the picture of
Mr McGuiness receiving his MBE has now also
been replaced.

Some additional lies still appear on the site
though :

"I hope every single voter in the East End uses their hard-fought right "

Yep - well if the election had not
been press-ganged into as short a time frame
as possible in the middle of the Glasgow Fair
then perhaps "every single voter" would have
had the chance to vote. Labour are really plumbing
the depths of the cesspool in which they habit.

"Polling day has been deliberately placed during the summer holidays - Scottish schools have already broken up. It is also midway through the Glasgow fair holiday, when the city traditionally empties and the more politically volatile C2 demographic - backbone of many a byelection swing - are safely away on vacation."

"Today, humiliatingly, Labour's view is that the fewer people who vote, the better. Glasgow East - like Brown's premiership - is now entirely about survival."

see - tinyurl.com/66cr87

It is also rather sick that Ms Curran focused
an individual who was fortunate enough
to reach the ripe old age of 93, despite the fact that
life expectancy is in places in
Glasgow East is as low as 54 the same as
Gambia , lower than Sudan and Bangladesh
never mind the healthy 71 for the Gaza strip.

Saor Alba
73

Traquir , Alba,

16/07/2008 05:51:00
84 Royster,

"#83. Why do you want to return to mediaeval kingdoms that have a very poor record of success?"

Well I guess this is one of the most balanced
Unionista postings I have seen for some time.
Usually they go on and on about Scotland returning
to the dark ages if she stops suckling from
the ample and generous British teat. Now at least
one Unionista admits that both England and Scotland
would be reduced to the dark ages - progress
indeed. I suspect that Unionistas need to be
collectively on some very strong anti-depressants
with their constant glass half empty attitude.
74

Royster,

16/07/2008 06:09:47
#91. But why? Seriously?
75

donald,

glasgow 16/07/2008 06:11:53
Typical of the SNP. They actually stand for wot they say they stand for. Poor Hammie and Royal Labour have a problem accepting that fact.

Every week Labour hacks and press chums look more and more foolish as they keep discovering that Labour is an Independence party.
76

beeree,

local 16/07/2008 06:51:30
It always amazes me how many Snippers suffer from imsomnia. Every article affecting SNP immediately has a platoon of apologists trimming the message to soften criticism.

Makes me wonder if there is but one nerd in a lonely office, with a dozen PCs and a stock of off the shelf answers.

It has always amazed me that the ones who call for an independent Scotland are too ready to sell Scotland to the highest bidder - explain how Trump, Soutar, First Group fit into the democratic pattern.
77

Royster,

16/07/2008 06:59:02
#94. I agree. Most of the the pro-SNP stuff is either a stock answer from the duty cadre at SNP HQ or some mad rant from a US citizen like Senga Jean.
78

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 16/07/2008 07:01:47
SCOTLAND WILL BE INDEPENTE!!!!!!
79

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 16/07/2008 07:07:00
SCOTLAND WILL BE INDEPENTE!!!!!!
80

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 07:11:52
AM2

"It’s a bitter irony that John Mason should use a marriage analogy when actually he wants a divorce. In fact, he once said that breaking up Britain is his only reason for being in politics."

I'm not sure what your idea of a happy maggiage is, but John Mason's suggestionis that Scotland and England develop a relationship where they are equal.

His opponents want to continue in a situation where one partner has all the power, goes out to be a part of the world (while keeping the other at home), hands out "house-keeping" money (and resents how much), constantly tells the other how lucky it is and it really should be more grateful.

Oh ... and the other that it would never make it on their own, and if they don't stop with the whining they have to look at reducing how much money they get.
81

John S,

16/07/2008 07:14:45
I am shocked the SNP have a secret, hidden agenda, they want independence and will keeping on asking the Scottish people until they achieve that goal.
Thank you Labour Party for discovering this on behalf of the grateful Scottish people, the 664,227 poor souls who voted for SNP in May 2007 have been hoodwinked.
82

Scotindy,

Los ANGELES 16/07/2008 07:15:31
Scotland will be INDEPENDENT!!!!
83

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 07:30:35
#102 Rulesbutnotrulers.

That was a disgraceul post.

I had thought more of you than that.
84

Number 6,

Germany 16/07/2008 07:37:08
What ? the SNP want independence ? oh no. As Salmond has already said, this will be a once in a generation question. If it's rejected so be it. Many supporters of Independence WOULD NOT want to see the question
repeated if the country clearly did not want it.

What would be the point, all it would produce is the
Scottish unionist Army or some other group. No , not independence if it meant the country would go up in flames. The transission must be peaceful and the will of the majority, and the SNP know that.
85

TommyKaye,

UK 16/07/2008 07:40:36
Xenophobes!

So if you want independence you are xenophobic so that means Mahatma Ghandi was a xenophobe!

Crikey
86

,

16/07/2008 07:41:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
87

The Tin Man,

Standing in the corner with a dunce-cap on 16/07/2008 07:46:45
The register of posters who have used personnal abuse so far on this thread:

- Tripod
- ThomasP
- Ken Fitlike
- Sanny
- Traquir, Alba
- Talorthane
88

conservative,

Fife 16/07/2008 07:50:22
I think that Mr. Mason's views tell the whole story. A single-policy party who care nothing at all for the wishes of the majority of the electorate.
89

eric,

Lothian 16/07/2008 07:55:23
London labour mps have said ,if every person in Scotland voted for independence No gvt in London will respect that vote!
90

lachlan,

16/07/2008 07:55:24
#106 looks like the dreaded E.U.is going to save the rosyth ferry.
91

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 16/07/2008 07:57:50
INDEPENDENCE forget liebor. And move FORWARD to the FUTURER........
92

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 07:58:28
#108 conservative, Fife

Have you just realised that the SNP want independence???

Where have you been all these years???

And to say that they care nothing at all for the wishes of the majority of the electorate, is a bit stupid to say the least.

Without the majority nothing can happen.

You seem about as in touch as a certain political party named after you??
93

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 16/07/2008 07:59:49
99 Talorthane
I'm not sure what your idea of a happy maggiage is, but John Mason's suggestion is that Scotland and England develop a relationship where they are equal. His opponents want to continue in a situation where one partner has all the power, goes out to be a part of the world hands out "house-keeping" money.

So could you explain why we have the following situation:
Blair - a Scottish PM takes us into an illegal war
Brown - a Scottish chancellor - taxes us to hell to pay for the illegal war
Brown - now a Scottish Priome Minister - becomes PM without an election, and with Darlin - a Scottish Chancellor presides over the biggest national UK debt in history.

In effec the Scottish Labour Party have kept Labour in power in the UK since 1997 and have remitted something like £30 billion a year back to their home territory - to be wasted on the largest benefits dependency area in the UK.

England is an economic giant within the UK; Scotland is a benefits dependency with the largest 'coooncil' sector in the UK.
94

Traquir , Alba,

16/07/2008 08:01:46
Wow, the Unionistas are clearly getting somewhat
upset here and their name calling is
reaching new depths of depravity:

Nazi, Xenophobes, Dark Ages, Supremacist,
Extremist Separatists, National Front

What a lovely bunch of people :)


95

,

16/07/2008 08:05:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

,

16/07/2008 08:06:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 08:06:35
107 The Tin Man

"The register of posters who have used personnal abuse so far on this thread:

- Tripod
- ThomasP
- Ken Fitlike
- Sanny
- Traquir, Alba
- Talorthane"


I would like to to show where, exactly, I have been personally abusive to anyone.

From a qucik glance at your list of alleged "personal abusers", these all happen to be nationalist in their political views. And those I recognise tend to beconstructive in their arguments, and far from abusive.

So, I would like you to give some evidence to theseclaims.



98

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 08:06:49
Absolutely unbelievable what the unionists are stooping to on these boards.

I'm with Traquir - what a lovely bunch.

Maybe all you defenders of British nationalism could take a note of Traquirs posts:- informative and making wider points all the way supported by links that only strengthen his arguments. That is what these boards are designed for - not slinging mud.

Any unionist care to qualify any of this nonsense with some links?:-

"Nazi, Xenophobes, Dark Ages, Supremacist,
Extremist Separatists, National Front"

We won't lose any sleep waiting for a reasonable response

99

The Tin Man,

16/07/2008 08:10:08
#117

"That was a disgraceul post.

I had thought more of you than that."

Admittedly a borderline case, and not in the same level as Mr Tripod.
100

The Tin Man,

16/07/2008 08:11:42
#117

As for your last comment, I was being impartial, and you can scan the posts for yourself for inter-poster abuse.
101

R.Soles,

Manchester 16/07/2008 08:11:54
Apologies to readers of 115 as the article continues


One union insider said: "It will be beyond belief for union and party members that someone who was [Peter Mandelson's] sidekick and tried to profit from his connections in government should be the first appointment of the new general secretary." In his email Collins says: "I am spending this summer settling in to my new responsibilities and getting to know you all. Part of that involves reviewing our collective capability so that we all work together in the most effective way possible.
"To help with all this I have asked Derek Draper to work with me on a voluntary part-time basis ... Derek ... will be assisting me in thinking through where we need to go organisationally to ensure our campaigning in the next few years matches our past best. I believe we can achieve this goal, despite our financial challenges, if all sections of the party work together."
Draper was special adviser to Mandelson, who in turn was acknowledged as one of Tony Blair's closest aides and a master of political spin. But Draper fell out with Mandelson over arguments on manipulating the media. Draper's downfall came in 1998 when he became a New Labour lobbyist for GPC Market Access. He boasted to an undercover reporter, the Observer's Greg Palast: "There are 17 people who count. And to say I am intimate with every one of them is the understatement of the century That claim to the paper government forced his exit from Labour politics.
He went to the US where he trained to become a psychotherapist.
102

gus1940,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 08:12:31
Hold The Front Page - Scotsman Exclusive.

'SNP want Independence'

What a contemptible propaganda rag this paper has become.

Stop treating the few readers you have left as if they were idiots.
103

Earman,

Dumfries 16/07/2008 08:17:22
Firstly, let me say that if this article is the best (or is that the worst?) that this newspaper can do to further their obvious one-sided Unionist agenda, then I am truly saddened that indigenous journalism in Scotland has come to such a pass.
Secondly, are both sides of the "divide" in danger of not seeing the woods for the trees? The impression I get is that both Unionists AND Nationalists are standing far too close to the big issue and are now only able to examine the minutia, scoring minor political points where they can. The issue of Scottish self-determination is WAY too important for this kind of petty behaviour. Step back one and all....now, a big deep breath. Now, having done so, and with clear heads, let's all do what is best for our Nation. These times present a real opportunity to secure a fair and decent deal for all who regard Scotland as their home. Whatever the result in Glasgow East, everyone with any input...voters, commentators, party workers et all, must be able to look into the eyes of the residents of that constituency and convince them that what they have said, what they have worked for, what they have voted for, is what they TRULY believe in, and not just a result of blind adherence to their party, whichever one it is.
104

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 08:17:54
113 Tweedmouth

"So could you explain why we have the following situation:
Blair - a Scottish PM takes us into an illegal war
Brown - a Scottish chancellor - taxes us to hell to pay for the illegal war
Brown - now a Scottish Priome Minister - becomes PM without an election, and with Darlin - a Scottish Chancellor presides over the biggest national UK debt in history.

In effec the Scottish Labour Party have kept Labour in power in the UK since 1997 and have remitted something like £30 billion a year back to their home territory - to be wasted on the largest benefits dependency area in the UK.

England is an economic giant within the UK; Scotland is a benefits dependency with the largest 'coooncil' sector in the UK."

Firstly, I would contest any claim that Tony Blair is Scottish.

But, on your main point, I would agree that Labour in Scotland have kept the Labour party alive, and at times, in power.

but this is not some kind of benefit that Scotland needs to feel grateful for, this is simple a result of the Labour Party's power base being decimated while remaining relatively unscathed in Scotland.

Anyway, it's becoming pretty clear that Gordon Brown will be the last ever Scottish Prime Minister. The English voters have been so manipulated on the issue that they will never allow this to happen again.

But, back to dispute. I obviously don't agree with your last paragrah:

"England is an economic giant within the UK; Scotland is a benefits dependency with the largest 'coooncil' sector in the UK"

This may have been believed by some people at some time, but with more information being available to the public and the continual development of the SNP, this will soon be as credible as Margaret's Curran's claims of residency in the East End.



105

Dougie Douglas,

Brsiabne 16/07/2008 08:18:33
Tweedmouth #113

What absolute nonsense you spout sir. What loathing you have for Scotland.

Are we supposed to be grateful that English public have put up with the labour party which happens to be run by prominent scots at the moment?

Are we supposed to inhibit the progress of scots in the labour party because of their ethnicity?

Are we supposed to be grateful that the British central government gives us our fair share of revenue to run services?

Do you expect us to swallow the idea that the Scots are supported financially by the English.

You are clearly displaying anglo-centric imperialist views for all to see. You suggest that Scots being leaders in the present constititutional set up is distasteful. The wiff of a southern English superiority complex pervades your post.

If you find Scotland , and the Scots so distasteful why do you hang around here costantly? Away get yerself onto the Daily Mail blog.
106

,

16/07/2008 08:19:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/07/2008 08:19:08
#102 Rulesbutnotrulers

"I'm still waiting to learn what the SXP can do for Glasgow East Enders after this by election that it couldn't do before it."

And everyone else is waiting for you or your LibDem cronies to come out and explain what it is exactly that you mean by Federalism.

Every time you or any one of your parties Leaders has been asked you have dodged the Question.

"Mason has indeed let the cat out of the Scottish National Front's ragbag. "

The "Cat" has always been out, the SNP has been explicit from day one about what their flagship constitutional policy is, you LibDem Federalists have never ever clearly reiterated what it is you mean by Federalism.

So I will ask again, What do you mean by Federalism?
108

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 08:24:17
119 The Tin Man

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the following is a form of personal abuse?


"That was a disgraceul post.

I had thought more of you than that."


This was discussing someone's behaviour (comments), not the person.

It was also directed to a person I have discussed matters with before, and formed anopinion of them.

It may be subjective but it is not abusive.


"You diddy!"

Now, that's abusive.

This is because it focusses not on what you have said or done, but on you as a person.
109

McMillar,

Fife 16/07/2008 08:26:20
Rather pointless article as we have a fair idea what the SNP stand for already. It’ not like the people of Glasgow East have massive choice here. It’s Labour or SNP, you choose. Make up own mind and don’t rely on the Scotsman for honest unbiased reporting. ZZZzzz.
110

Senga Jean,

16/07/2008 08:31:19
I vote SNP to make a difference and they do. They have surprised me by how much improvement they have brought about under very difficult political conditions. The EU does not control its members tax policy so we in Scotland are stuck with our neighbour deciding what is good for them (but not for us) and the bitter irony is they are Scottish MP's mostly who decide against our Scottish interests. Independence then is the one BIG thing that could improve this and I therefore support the SNP candidate in Glasgow East because he would make a difference long and short term. IS IT TIME?,,, ITS TIME!
111

bluehead,

edinburgh 16/07/2008 08:37:40
Independence should have been the real deal to start with,Scotland will never see proper changes until they relieve themselves of England.
the sight of brown and his cronies on televisions is a sickening sight to behold.
112

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 08:42:02
#130 sm753

You said "Let me offer a promise of my own - any attempt to "keep ansking the question" will by fought by some of us through the courts."

Do you think any Scottish court would deem holding an independence referendum illegal????

You must have plenty money to waste on legal fees??

If you feel your 'human rights' are being compromised by living in a democracy then you really are a disturbed individual.

I laugh at the hypocrisy of most Unionists who welcome countries like Slovakia, Kosovo and Montenegro as independent nations and chastise countries like China over Tibet, but would do anything to keep Scotland shackled into Union that is well by it's sell by date!!
113

Sunrise,

Fife 16/07/2008 08:42:13
#130 sm753

Is this the response of a Scotsman? You really are going to take a referendung result through the courts?

It seems your approach to whatever the people decide in a referendum, if it does not agree with your dogma, is to use the courts to put aside the vote. Since the labour party is actually calling for a referendum how can this be……

For many years I've met this kind of attitude from Labour people: “We know best, and we decide how people should live and if the people have a different view then they are wrong and must be protected from themselves.”

It is the voice of an arrogant establishment that has been if power too long and is not needed or wanted any more.
114

Micropacer,

16/07/2008 08:42:28
The SNP want independence!

Who cares - if we the Scottish people dont want it we will not vote for it in a referendum.

The simple and plain fact is the SNP are the best Party currently to run the Country. The likes of AM2 would rather have a Clueless Unionist Gimp than an very able SNP leader.

The Uber Nats would never vote a good Unionist in and the Uber Unionist a good Nat in. The rest of us just want the best people for the job - and without a shadow of a doubt thats the SNP. I cannot see that changing anytime soon.

Alex Salmond is correct - the referendum is a once in a generation thing. I think hes probably concerned that the better the SNP run Scotland in the UK the less there is an appetite for change.

Currently the SNP would lose that referendum - you would have to be seriously misguided to belive otherwise. I dont currently see things changing fast enough in 2 years to change that even with the Tories in which wont make much difference IMO. New Labour are probably disliked more currently. Things can change quickly so its all still to play for but I dont see it happening in time for 2010.
115

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 08:49:31
Devolution has created a quasi-federal UK in everything but constitutional name. Devolved government is now the status quo and was introduced to prevent the Scots seceding from this unitary state .

The centralised, 20th Century British State is long Gone With The Wind.

We must also remember that after the partition of the Island of Ireland, for political, military, and then geographical reasons, it more than suited old Imperial Britain to create the very first devolved administration in the UK in the form of the semi-autonomous Northern Ireland statelet, although its collapse, violent interregnum, and return to true democratic devolved government are well documented.

At present the Scots are more than happy with devolved government and repeated polls have shown that they are not willing to go the whole hog and vote for complete Independence. Semi-autonomy suits the Scots.

However, by the same token repeated polls have also shown that the Scots have no intention of going back to any form of centralised UK State and that is where the danger lies for politicians.

Any future plans to reduce the powers of the Scottish Devolved Government, or indeed, any attempt to abolish it can only have one inevitable outcome!


116

The Tin Man,

16/07/2008 08:50:00
#128 Talorthane

A well-argued case, and I retract my alegation.

Apologies for not commenting on the article - I think it is rather petty.

The register of posters who have used personnal abuse so far on this thread:

- Tripod
- ThomasP
- Ken Fitlike
- Sanny
- Traquir, Alba

117

SEUMAS,

fearn 16/07/2008 08:51:46
Would be interesting to read theposts removed by the administrator, they are probably pro S.N.P.
Am2 and Macdonnell are probably the same person and are entitled to opinions but not to come out with obvious lies,however we have become used to lies from the liebour party. Roll on independendence but not separatism.
118

Miss H,

16/07/2008 08:53:11
SNP will always fight for independence - shock. Not.

136 is right. Independnece will only happen when people vote for it. If you don't want it don't vote for it.

If people like 130 want to waste their money by trying to repress the democratic process who cares? It just shows how desperate they are.

Incidentally who heard this morning's GMS with the Glasgow East themed piece about Barlanark - and how politicians never went there after dark?

John Mason lives in Barlanark. A fact which I am sure the BBC are aware of.

Shoddy journalism or bias? I am not sure but I will be complaining anyway.
119

BIG EYE,

Paisley 16/07/2008 08:59:41
The Labour campaign so far

The SNP support Independence for Scotland

Shock horror...why no claim to be an exclusive?

John Mason is a hardline Nationalist becauses he agrees with every other party member on Independence

Another exclusive surely!

The SNP is a one issue party

Yes and what issue is that.student fees, bridge tolls,prescription charges, ending the PFI?PPP rip off etc. Please specify what issue it is!

Margaret Curran is listening

That's good I hope somebody tells her where she lives

The thought of Father Cairns celebrating about his great discovery about the SNP desire for Independence fills me with glee. What a plonker!
120

Bob M,

Paisley 16/07/2008 09:00:43
#130 "the inevitable slip of the Nat mask begins"

When have the SNP's opinions on the matter ever been masked?

121

Miss H,

16/07/2008 09:01:05
102 Are you kidding? What do you think the effect of the loss of Labour's 3rd safest seat in Scotland would be - as opposed to returning another Labour MP. Which outcome do you think is most likely to make the Westminster Government consider what more can be done to help people suffering the effects of rising prices? If Labour win it's business as usual. If the SNP win it's not.
122

danbob,

16/07/2008 09:01:55
Maybe the SNP asked Mugabe for a few tips in the famous letter how to make people give you what you want. Sounds like something out of African politics.
123

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 16/07/2008 09:02:49
To hold regular and frequent referendums would, of course, be pointless and absurd. However, not putting a referendum forward until 30 years have elapsed from the previous one is equally stupid.

If at any time the view of the people is perceived to have changed in support of independence then it is only proper that it is tested in a referendum.

The SNP exists for the purpose of gaining independence. It is only correct that they should be able to put that policy to the electorate at all times. No other party is restrained from putting forward its policies to the electorate. If the country wants independence it will get it, if it does not it will not.
124

Roy,

16/07/2008 09:03:45
"THE SNP candidate in the Glasgow East by-election sparked a fresh row over Scotland's future last night, when he warned the Nationalists might not accept a No vote in a referendum on independence."

Labour didn't accept the YES vote in the rigged 1979 referendum!

If the first Independence referendum did not reach a concensus, you expect the SNP to say, 'Ach well, that's that then. We'll nae bother any more.' Aye right.
125

Iain Ban,

Fife 16/07/2008 09:10:11
# McScotch identity crisis; indupundunce noo,

Yet another SLAB troll appears on the site. This one seems not to have a brain and seems to be typing out a SLAB checklist just to annoy people. How about we all agree just to ignore it until it gets bored and goes away.

The SNP can ask me as often as it sees fit and I will always vote for independence. I have no problem with referenda and believe that we - the people - should be consulted directly by the Government more often. As long as the Union exists, however, we need to be careful as the SLABs would vote for Trident and new nuclear power stations simply out of spite and hatred of the SNP if the London executive ever did trust the people and allow them to vote in referenda (as likely as finding a SLAB troll with more than two brain cells, mind you). A very sick view of democracy, in my opinion.





126

Alan B,

16/07/2008 09:12:11
The whole hardline argument is ridiculous.

Glen Campbell kept asking the snp candidate whether he took a hardline on independence. The candidate kept replying that he supported independence. And when pushed accepted the terminology hardline.

But lets face it all 4 main parties are hardline on the consitution. The snp for independence and the 3 unionist parties. Is anyone seriously suggesting labour and the tories are not hardline unionists.

Their unionism is not up for grabs. They do not have a persuadable position. Until Wendy none of the unionist parties were willing to let the people choose in a referendum.
127

Alan B,

16/07/2008 09:16:24
#Rulesbutnotrulers

2 points.

1)if u believe in federalism why not support a loose eu federalism rather than a uk one. if u believe in the concept of federalsim surely an eu one would be more beneficial that any form of federalism for the uk.

2)federalism is about having shared powers. What powers do u think it is better to share with the rest of the uk.

Beyond defence i cannot see really any arguements for anything. And with defence i think we all know scotland has a different perspective to england on nuclear and involvement in certain overseas adventures. (rightly or wrongly).
128

Miss H,

16/07/2008 09:16:46
144 Are you insane?

129

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:21:51
#151

Salmond did write a letter to the leader of mseveral contries including Zimbabwae and Iran, onw country that is killing its political opponents and the other which is supplying minitions that are killing scottish soldiers. do you deny that?
130

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 09:22:11
#137 Mr. Lachie Todd

Your post is perhaps the only sensible one on this board. Most Scots seem more or less content with devolution so that's the way it's likely to stay.

Also it's difficult to see the SNP ever winning enough support at Holyrood to push through a referendum on independence. Winning the by-election in Glasgow East will give the SNP a fillip but it won't lift them above 50 per cent of the vote in the next Holyrood election.

Personally I don't feel that the SNP will win Glasgow East. My guess is that Labour will hang on with a small majority. But this is only a feeling and I wouldn't want to bet on it.

131

wayne bijlyeerheid,

16/07/2008 09:28:50
The Anglo-trolls are suffering this morning,
"I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I’m opposed to" has stirred their deepest bottom feeders.
Well done Mr Mason, brightened my day, we've had enough of hypocritical WoS Labour's irn-bru (Irish nationalist-British unionist)verbage.
132

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 09:29:04
138 The Tin Man

Thank you
133

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 09:29:47
#31 Spook

I’m not sure from where you get the idea that there’s some kind of equivalence. I am convinced that the benefits of Scotland being part of Britain far outweigh any benefits of independence. Others, having weighed the evidence and filtered it through their own personal perspectives come to the opposite conclusion. Neither view is inherently “superior” to the other. Only the SNP claims otherwise.
134

danbob,

16/07/2008 09:34:39
151# No Missy I arn't insane. I'm not one of those lemmings that hang on to every lying word a politician utters.
135

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 09:34:54
144 danbob

After reading your absurd post I can't help but wonder if you agree with your Dear Leader re the EU referendum?

That was Mugabe style democracy.

The screwed up postal voting system described by a judge as 'banana republic style corruption'

That was Mugabe style democracy.

You do know what I'm talking about???
136

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:34:56
#158

Why would it have to be declared Independent, because thats what happened in the Past? doesn't mean it has to happen in the future.
137

John south of Soutra,

16/07/2008 09:35:30
Tweedmouth, you're at it again with your anti Scottish rants, as I have reminded you in the past, if you are claiming that Blair is Scottish as he was born in Edinburgh, then by the same token, Darling is English as he was born in London, you can't have it both ways.
Also if you hate Scotland so much why do you live in Coldstream
138

Ladiskar Rasnik,

South Lanarkshire 16/07/2008 09:37:02
SNP candidate believes in independence!
Shock horror!
139

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/07/2008 09:39:10
#147 Rulesbutnotrulers

It is good that you have finally reiterated something about what you envision. However many questions still remain, such as:

You say the shared policy areas would be military, currency, foreign and trading policy and subscribing to the same charter of human right and duties.

How is that any different from what an Independant Scotland would enjoy within the EU?

The only difference between your vision of a United States of UK and what an Independant Scotland would be in the EU is the use of a common language "English".

If find it difficult to understand why you continually use the term Xenophobic to describe the SNPs vision when yours is based on a Xenophobia of people whose mother tongue is not English.

140

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 09:39:58
#41 Guga II

You said: “I can, however, understand why you, as a Northern Irishman, have a fixation with the Union, but why do you expect the people of Scotland to follow suit?”

Once again, you seize every opportunity to gratuitously introduce my Irish roots into the conversation. Why would you do that? It indicates very clearly that you consider people who aren’t “natural-born” Scots to be somehow less credible, less entitled to a stake in the political process.

That fits with something you once said about another poster: “I wouldn't pay too much heed to Pete from Paisley. He is obviously English.”

Despite the fact that people born in England, Wales or N.Ireland comprise about 10% of the population of Scotland, you speak of such people as “foreigners” and refer to them as “interfering in Scotland”.

You have even told me to “go back to Ireland”. This is clearly more than a governance issue for you. It’s racial.

You positively demonise the English, calling them “neighbours from hell” and referring to Scotland being oppressed by the “jackboot of English colonialism”.

You have accused them of “raping and pillaging” Scotland. You have said that there is “no good reason to try and keep on their good side” and that “we actually need an ASBO against them, in the form of independence”.

Any right-thinking person can see that such extreme views only serve to undermine your own credibility.
141

LKK252,

16/07/2008 09:40:32
I think the general gist of the article is that if there is an Independance Referendum, where Scots vote against Independance, the SNP will not accept the will of the people...and here was me thinking we lived in a democracy!!
142

Aesop,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 09:42:25
Poster #157 You question the economic benefits of independence when the real question is the psychological damage caused by dependence.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Scots, Bretons, Native Americans and Australian Aborigines, for example, have higher rates of alcoholism, drug addiction, depression and suicide than, respectively, the overall population of Great Britain, France, USA, or Australia?

Even back in the 14th century the Scots who signed the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 had a higher sense of purpose and self-worth than those independence doubters who have a shopkeepers mentality:

"It is not for fame, riches or glory but freedom alone..."

143

danbob,

16/07/2008 09:42:29
160# I agree with what you say about postal voting. Now tell me what is absurd about pointing out the obvious.
144

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:43:54
#166

good post, this Mason character is turning out to be a bit of a nightmare for the nats, typical councillor cannon fodder.
145

home thoughts,

abroad 16/07/2008 09:44:40
This is absolute nonsense. The Scottish people have never had even one chance to express our view on Independence in a referendum. So to moan on about the possibility of so-called neverendums is just disingenuous and pernicious.
146

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 09:45:23
Are the SNP "hardline" on independence?

Well, "hardline" is obviously a relative term, and we need to look at the positions adopted by other parties.

The SNP work within the current constitutional setup. They have identified their preferred constitutional arrangement (independence) and accept that they have to work democratically to bring this about. In the meantime they are working towards bringing more powers to Scotland ("Devolution max").

That's not hardline. That pragmatic and democratic.

Now, let's look at the opposition.

The unionist parties prefer eiother the current setup or an enhancement of the devolutionary setuop, but will not countenance any discussion on independence. Labour have lost a leader in Scotland (partly as a result of breaking rank on the issue), the Lib Dems turned down the chance of government on the matter (preferring opposition than risking the public being heard), and they now say they will work with the Tories in England but not the SNP in Scotland, again to prevent the public having a say.

This seems much more hardline to me.

As far as referenda go, there only needs to be one. If the SNP win it then there is no need for any more. The resistance of the opposition to hold even one suggests they acknowledge this possibility.

So the argument over subsequent referenda is redundant until the first one has been held.

If a referendum was held, and lost (we're obviously speaking hypothetically here), then it's up to the SNP as to whether they include this in subsequent manifestos, no-one else.

If the public don't like it, they won't vote for them in enough numbers.

If they continue to vote for them then they they it would be clear that a 4 yearly referendum is not a problem with them.

In fact, in order to re-energise the electorate, maybe a referendum should be held at least every 4 years on something of importance.
147

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 09:46:35
John Mason should know that repeated referendums can backfire. In Quebec the Parti quebecois held two referendums on independence (each with a deliberately ambiguous question like that in the white paper) and lost both. The outcome was to discredit the party. It is the now the third party in the Quebec national assembly. The Canadian Liberal party is the biggest and forms the government (policy - federalism). The official opposition is the new Action democratique du quebec (policy - autonomy within Canada). The Party quebecois has been reduced to third place.
John Mason should be careful in what he asks for!
148

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:46:39
#168

Who did the survey back then?
149

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 09:46:45
#43 Frank McBride

You asked: “Why do you do it, AM2? Why are you intent on making yourself look so foolish?”

Overblown hyperbole, Frank, and I won’t reply in such terms.

In any case, Mason represents Ward 20 (Baillieston), one of 21 wards in the Glasgow City Council area. The parliamentary constituency of Glasgow East is one of only seven constituencies covering the same area.

So for you to suggest that “the voters of Glasgow East, know that he is an extremely good political representative” isn’t quite true. The voters of about a third of that constituency are evidently content with his role as councillor, where he has no real scope to forward his independence agenda. This election is a whole different kettle of fish.
150

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 16/07/2008 09:48:12
#22 That comment is just wrong. No doubt about it Scottish Nationalism and by Default SNP votes are on the increase. This is because the SNP are a positive force in Scotland and the electorate are recognising that right across the country. I for one have seen a massive positive change in my local area to both the local economy and general environment mostly thanks to huge efforts by the new SNP authority. Don't get me wrong a couple of local Labour councillors have been involved in some of the changes however the difference since the SNP took more control is blatantly obvious...
151

danbob,

16/07/2008 09:48:36
168# I say us scots have an adictive streak. Take a very honest look around the people you know, How many either Smoke, gamble, drink heavily, eat unhealthly, take drugs or have some other addictive trait. It's in the genes.
152

DouglasT,

16/07/2008 09:48:59
Its a referendum, the people decide. If they don't want it, they will vote against it. Mr Mason is being honest, a rare quality in politics.

Compare that with ...

EU constitution rejected, re-presented as a treaty with the referendum option suppressed where possible. Rejected again but majority of countries continue to ratify it. wonder why.

Wendy Alexander donations: I broke the law ... I didn't intenionally break the law ... I didn't break the law. Aided in conspiracy by Gordon, Whitton, McCabe, Baillie, etc. This continues to unravel.

Brown. Opinion polls did not influence election decision; no deals done on 42 day detention; etc.

Smith; did not propose criminals visiting victims in A & E.

Jowell; did not know her huge mortgage had been paid off.

Browne; difficulty is finding where he didn't lie.

Cairns; another one defined by 'when the lips move ..'

Hoon; same as Browne

Curran; lived all her life in Glasgow East
153

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 09:49:19
Does anyone know if the Polis have begun investigating David Marshall, ex New Labour Sleaze MP for Glasgow East, financial affairs yet????

Fraud is fraud whether perpetrated by a benefit cheat or an MP!!!!!
154

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 09:49:34
170 All Politicians are the same

"good post, this Mason character is turning out to be a bit of a nightmare for the nats, typical councillor cannon fodder."


You wish.

Most nationalists actually seem to think he's doing a pretty good job.

in fact, I haven't heard or read any nationalists who are disappointed with him at all.

It sounds as if it the opposition who are hoping to believe that he's no so good, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
155

Miss H,

16/07/2008 09:49:36
166 Are you also insane?

When the Tories were booted out of power in 1997 did they say OK we accept the will of the people and will never stand for election again?

When Labour are booted out of power at the next general election do you expect them to dissolve themselves and vanish forever?

Did you oppose the 1997 referendum on establishing a Scottish Parliament because the previous attempt to establish a Scottish Assembly failed in 1979?

Or are you only opposed to the democratic process when it involves testing support for Scottish independence?
156

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:50:59
#171

there is a paty whose overriding aim is Indepenedence and the people can vote for them at every election if they want, that is a choice. what you cannot get your head round is that independence is a minority view point.
157

Boggle fey the Bog,

16/07/2008 09:52:58
102 Rulesbutnotrulers
"Mason has indeed let the cat out of the Scottish National Front's ragbag. We'll vote until we get it right, and then, suddenly, no more votes just in case we want to change our minds. Democracy is a one-way trip as far as these Xenophobes are concerned.
I'm still waiting to learn what the SXP can do for Glasgow East Enders after this by election that it couldn't do before it."

An interesting post, but can you explain to me who the Scottish National Front are?

I thought that John Mason was a member of the Scottish National PARTY, in fact until your 'revelation' I did not even know of the existence of this organisation,The Scottish National Front, who, according to you, happen to have a person called Mason on their strength, perhaps you could enlighten myself and other users of this forum with more detail.

I also see that in your confused, befuddled and paranoid state, that you have also discovered this other 'entity' which you style the 'SXP'.

Pray tell to me who the SXP are?

It would appear that in your rush to bolster your fantasies,which I have no doubt that you believe to be 'Real', you are like a lost child getting confused and irritated.

The greatest threat to democracy in this country at present is the subtle marginalisation of the electorate, this has allowed the most restrictive right wing government (under B liar and Brown), since Charles I, to control, subjugate and remove democratic rights, without recourse to the electorate, and like Charles I they think they have a 'God given right to rule and not be accountable to anyone save their God'.
And like Charles I , they will be removed from governance by the people of this country.

Is it not strange, that when Onionists, run out of logical and reasoned responses they turn to fear and smear, to charge that Scotland's Party and it's supporters are Xenophobic, is just one of those fear and smear tactics.

The path that these Onionistas walk has frightening and un
158

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 09:53:07
#182 All Politicians are the same, Scotland

Yes independence is a minority view until it becomes a majority view.

Not long now!!
159

antifa,

16/07/2008 09:53:29
136 - you are not welcome here.

Your comment was disgracefully sensible and much too representative of majority Scottish opinion.

Hence it was completely ignored by the Nat and Unionist green-inkers who populate this board.
160

Boggle fey the Bog,

16/07/2008 09:53:50

cont:/ from #183

The path that these Onionistas walk has frightening and uncanny similarities with all extreme and repressive regimes throughout history, what next?
The Scots are the cause of all the problems in the UK, Oh sorry that ones been done to death, hasn't it.
Or the Scots are subsidy junkies, Oh that's been done as well!!

So great befuddled one, who travels under the style of 'Rulesbutnotrulers', please enlighten us with an explanation of your somewhat vacuous and irrational ramblings.
161

Phil1,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 09:54:07
9 ThomasP,16/07/2008 00:16:55

I guess no 9 ThomasP had been drinking judging by the time the post was made and by starting it by issuing a personal insult - always the first choice of a fascist.

Bullying is a good pastime for some 'idiots' eh No 9 ThomasP. Reminds me of the EU if a referendum doesn't give the correct answer then Mr Mason and THomasP will just keep asking until the stupid people vote the way they want them to. Its called democracy SNP style.
162

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:55:45
There is a revealing aspect of Scottish party politics whenever a Labour and Conservative representative or candidate get together for a hustings or debate. On the Politics Show debate we could see this aspect playing itself out. Labour, despite the SNP being their only real opponents, gave great weight and significance to whatever the nice Conservative lady said, as if the Tories were something more than just a small-minor party in Scotland. The Conservative, equally, despite just hoping to hang onto the deposit, rounded on Labour for this and that, as if the contest was really hotting between the two. All the while revealing, in the shy little furtive glances between them, an absolute desire for things to be so much simpler up here, a wish that Labour and Tories, the great pals of British politics, could duke out between them, high-noon style, and not have to bother addressing any other concern than who can come across as more genuinely centrist. Party politics could be so much simpler if it weren't for that gosh-darned issue of the Scottish constitution.

We also see this aspect whenever some supporter of the union makes strange demands that those who believe in a move to independence should just darned well stop believin'. One chap, quite significant, I forget who, saying the SNP should promise to stop all this flim-flam, hi-jinks (I'm paraphrasing, BTW), and political thinking. I presume the reason is this strange claim of there being a 'neverendum' (whoever thought that word up should get a little tin medal from the queen). Yet, once one has come to the conclusion that in order for people in Scotland to have proper relations with all our neighbours and the rest of the world, in order for Scotland to enjoy being a member-state of the EU, and to establish a democracy based on social democratic values, Scotland requires to exercise the currently reserved powers. In order to be convinced from this argument then surely a cogent argument must be made for
163

Carmichael, A.,

16/07/2008 09:56:33
~188 cont.
In order to be convinced from this argument then surely a cogent argument must be made for the union that doesn't involve scare-mongering, nor appeals to Imperial superiority complexes, nor appeals to an elite culture. Thus far such arguments have not been forthcoming. And, that is why Labour and Conservatives wish they were arguing with each other because that would mean neither would have to formulate such arguments and, you know, the longer they wish they were arguing with each other and ignoring the realities in Scotland then the harder it is going to be for them to ever formulate a coherent and cogent argument - and you'll notice, next time, that the Conservative representative never drinks water when the Labour representative speaks, think about.
164

Edward,

16/07/2008 09:57:41
#90 Traquir , Alba
I find Labours manipulation unbelievable, where are the so called journalists, who should be exposing this blatant manipulation of facts, if they are that!

Somehow I doubt Mr Hipson is actually 93, more likely 88. But whats a few years when Labour are manipulating the truth
165

subrosa,

16/07/2008 09:58:30
During my time in Glasgow east yesterday I was talking with a chap about politics. He has decided to change from labour to SNP he said. When I mentioned the referendum his reply was interesting. It was something along the lines of "Do you really think once independence is here that labour, tory, libdems will vanish into the mist? They'll be first in the queue for a place in the new Scotland they will, shouting they believed in independence all the time, but it wasn't their party's line. Liars the lot of them".
166

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 09:58:41
#181

A general election which has to be held every 4 years is slightly different from a ground breaking referendum to completely change the way a country is Governed. The same nats who were decrying the EU for wanting to hold a second referendum in ireland are now saying they would do exactly the same here, do all Nats sign the hippocritic oath. Mason is a good thing as every time he opens his mouth he illustrates the hardline extremists views of many nats.
167

Auckland Arab2,

16/07/2008 09:58:53
Given that the people of Scotland have NEVER been asked, this headline is a typical Hootsmon fiction. He was asked his opinion and he gave it. So what.

As for "Mason has indeed let the cat out of the Scottish National Front's ragbag" what utter claptrap! Can the Unionists on these forums really claim that new Liebour has done a good job in 11 years? Seriously? And the Major Govt before it? If the SNP is a ragbag then Blair, Brown and Co. are utter lying bar stewards, corrupt to the core, who have spent the last 11 years lining their own pockets (and those of their big business supporters). Sleaze, sleaze, sleaze. Illegal wars. Nanny state interference at all levels of society. Motorists persecuted to an inch of their license. Need I go on? What a fantastic record of achievement. I don't think it would be very hard for any Govt to better than awful record.
168

John S,

16/07/2008 10:00:45
Every time the SNP presents its election manifesto which contains a promise to hold a referendum to the Scottish people and they are elected to form the Scottish Government they will be entitled to hold that referendum even if this happens every four years, this will be what the voters wanted.
169

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:02:51
#194

only if they happen to get a majority, do you really think the SNP are stupid enough to go for a referendum every 4 years if, as seems likely they don't even break 40% in the first one?
170

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 10:04:14
#142 Bob M

You asked: “When have the SNP's opinions on the matter ever been masked?”

That’s not the issue. We all know the SNP wants Scotland to become an independent country, as is their right.

It’s the baggage that quite often goes along with that view which causes concern.

Look again at the quote I gave in post #1. Note how John Mason casts his nationalism in terms of not wanting strong links between Scotland and England.

The benign philosophy known as “civic nationalism” seems intelligible to disturbingly few people. More malignant forms often bubble to the surface and impact the public discourse negatively.

Even some SNP politicians can show signs of this. Some examples might be:

– Winnie Ewing calling the other parties “enemies of Scotland” and “traitors”
– Alex Salmond’s comment about “anti-Scottish prejudices” of English MPs
– Stewart Hosie’s reference to “anti-Scottish voices south of the border”
– Kenny MacAskill’s reference to the England football team as “the Great Satan”
– Cllr Ross Vettraino's remark that the English are “so bloody arrogant”
– Annabelle Ewing's bizarre claim that “The UK is not a 'nation'”
– and so on.

Of course, some of you will nod along with those quotes and wonder what the problem is. That’s the problem.
171

George Mackay,

Dundee 16/07/2008 10:05:35
Any folk know why John Michie has changed sides? Last year he campaigned for the SNP. Two months ago he was on the Andrew Neil Thursday night show making the case for the SNP and independence. Now he's campaigning for Labour in Glasgow East.
Does Labour pay more than the SNP? Or has Michie fallen out with someone with an evebn bigger ego than him?
172

,

16/07/2008 10:06:05
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173

,

16/07/2008 10:07:00
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174

BIG EYE,

Paisley 16/07/2008 10:07:28
William Hill who was offering 7/4 against the SNP yesterday now have odds of 11/8.

Is there something going on in Glasgow East I wonder?
175

,

16/07/2008 10:08:20
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176

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 10:08:35
#198 Hen Broon

Good morning to you too. Have a pleasant day.
177

LKK252,

16/07/2008 10:09:11
181 Miss H

I can assure you I'm perfectly sane eventhough my opinion differs from yours and I feel you may have misinterpreted my post.
The General Election is run along set, democratic principles. If the Tories lose an election it clearly states that there must another 4/5 years before another election can be called. This is what we call democracy and part of our constitution.The referendum on Scottish Independance has no such agreed guidelines and is even dispute amongst the Nationalists themselves!
178

chico y,

16/07/2008 10:09:56
Can't see where the "slip up" is that puts Mason at odds with Salmond. Usual biased trash from this rag trying to make a drama out of nothing. Nobody believes you anymore, why bother ?

No "blows to SNP tax proposals" today then ?

179

,

16/07/2008 10:10:07
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180

The Strategist,

16/07/2008 10:10:57
What astonishes me more than anything is that given the appalling mess that Westminster and the City have made of the economy then Scotland isn't screaming its head off to get out from under the control and influence of this bunch of comedians and demanding a referendum tomorrow.

181

John S,

16/07/2008 10:12:43
#194:That will be upto the SNP to decide if they wish to include a referendum in subsequent manifestos if they do then it will be upto the people to decide if they want to vote for the SNP and another referendum via the ballot box.
182

,

16/07/2008 10:12:47
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183

,

16/07/2008 10:12:58
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184

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:15:16
Oh my god HM and AM2 on the boards at the same time great ready for a tidal wave of distortion
185

,

16/07/2008 10:15:20
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186

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:18:50
The abusive comments are flying now, Mason is a muppet and has made a mistake. Salmond is the SNP, nobody is going to vote for Sturgeon, I wouldn't let her take charge of my shopping in Tesco never mind a country, as much command presence as your average pet rabbit.
187

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:20:49
The fact that Mason and Salmond have slightly differing views only goes to illustrate that unlike the labour party the SNP is not a centrally controlled beast.

In the labour party there is one line - no dissent is permitted. The SNP is a broad School - this is a strength - it is only a weakness to have a spectrum of views if you live in a country where the mmedia will seek to exploit these differences of opinion.

The key thing in a democratic party is freedom of thought, giving a spread of views in any one subject - this is normal and is the crux of democracy and good government.

Of course this explains where we are at in 2008 with teh labour party - no debate - no vision.
188

Miss H,

16/07/2008 10:21:54
153 Publius. It's all about terms and definitions. There's an interesting presentation from John Curtice on the Calman Commission website looking at public opinion from 1999 onwards.

http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/uploads/2008-06-26-john-curtice-presentation.pdf

Obviously they are looking at it from the point of view of unionists - i.e. securing the position of Scotland in the UK - but the message is still clear. The constitutional preference of the majority is devolution but a clear majority (aroumd 70%) believe that the Scottish Government should run Scotland while less than 15% think the UK Government should. As you would expect there is a similarly high level of support for Holyrood taking on more powers to do that. So that seems to be the current preference, which I guess could be described as independence within the UK. The Scottish Government running Scotland (rather than Westminster) but Scotland being part of the UK.

My belief is that this circle can't be squared. If we want the Scottish Government to run Scotland - as around 70% of us seem to - then we need to become independent. That's the SNP's case and it is a clear one. It's up to the unionists to clarify how they think Scottish self-government can be achieved within the Union.

So the challenge for devolutionists is to find a way in which the Scottish Government can run Scotland while still remaining subservient to the UK Government. People may come back and say I am being narrowly nationalistic talking about the Scottish Government being subservient to Westminster - I am not. That is a statement of fact. In a sense then it is up to Westminster to save the Union by letting go. The signs thus far are that they are not willing to do that.
189

G,

dundee 16/07/2008 10:24:56
SNP member wants independence shock!!!

the real story is Alec Salmond's reluctance to push independence or even test opinion with a referendum.
However if Scotland went independent the main reason for the existence of the SNP would disappear - maybe Salmond isn't so keen to hasten the end of his party....
190

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 10:26:31
Hilarious.

Mason would be a great candidate if only he could keep his Separatist agenda out of his mouth.

Now we know why he requires Salmond to hold his hand.
191

brownlie,

16/07/2008 10:27:01
210 British Pride

You've started early with the insults today. Usually you wait until you've been rumbled.

Your good self and AM2 will probably wish to flood this thread with our usual unionist negativity. It would appear we have nothing else to offer the Scottish voters and certainly not the Glasgow East voters.

No doubt Paisley Pete will turn up soon to pollute this thread and embarass us unionists.
192

Marian,

16/07/2008 10:27:55
The EU has set a precedent by its asking the same question again and again until it gets the answer it wants so why should the SNP not do the same?
193

Miss H,

16/07/2008 10:28:35
203 To accept your logic you would have to believe that the people who voted SNP did so without knowing that the SNP were committed to holding a referendum on independence. People did know that and will know in future elections what they are voting for as well. The SNP will only be in a position to hold a referendum if the voters put them in that position. This is what we call democracy.
194

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:29:18
Miss H

Independence by degrees is not a problem. What is evident is that devolution has brought a desire for more home powers. It's a process, when more powers are voted for by Scots more shall be given.

Independence creep is something the unionists should be more afraid of than a referendum. Of course the unionists cannot ignore the will of 70% of the people, they are only trying to control how much is given - which is pointless.

Might aswell make a timetable now for full Independence by 2020.
195

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 10:29:59
They won't have to keep asking, 2010 should be long enough to persuade the "don't knows" of the benefits of Independence.
196

Queen D,

Glasgow 16/07/2008 10:30:51
Been better to lead with Guido Fawkes!

Most interesting blog from our Guido.

Viva Guido!
197

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:33:54
"'N British,16/07/2008 10:26:31
Hilarious.

Mason would be a great candidate if only he could keep his Separatist agenda out of his mouth.

Now we know why he requires Salmond to hold his hand."

LOL - this is as shocking news as the headline:-

"BROWN WANTS TO MAINTAIN UNION"

This 'story' and the contributions from Unionists on this thread are borderline twighlight zone. How utterly bizarre. The average man on the street must be scratching his head thinking 'doh, tell me something I didn't know'

198

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:33:55
"'N British,16/07/2008 10:26:31
Hilarious.

Mason would be a great candidate if only he could keep his Separatist agenda out of his mouth.

Now we know why he requires Salmond to hold his hand."

LOL - this is as shocking news as the headline:-

"BROWN WANTS TO MAINTAIN UNION"

This 'story' and the contributions from Unionists on this thread are borderline twighlight zone. How utterly bizarre. The average man on the street must be scratching his head thinking 'doh, tell me something I didn't know'

199

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:33:55
"'N British,16/07/2008 10:26:31
Hilarious.

Mason would be a great candidate if only he could keep his Separatist agenda out of his mouth.

Now we know why he requires Salmond to hold his hand."

LOL - this is as shocking news as the headline:-

"BROWN WANTS TO MAINTAIN UNION"

This 'story' and the contributions from Unionists on this thread are borderline twighlight zone. How utterly bizarre. The average man on the street must be scratching his head thinking 'doh, tell me something I didn't know'

200

jacquesmac,

~~~In a vacuum 16/07/2008 10:34:34
Has anyone gone into Magrits "period" at Glasgow University?

What did she study, did she graduate and with what?

I smell putrefaction somewhere in her background, maybe lots of places?
201

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:34:55
#223

We have been listening to free by 83 etc for years Dougie, now is 2020 then 2120, the UK is here to stay, even with unpopular wars, sleaze, corruption and an incompetent PM you cannot get support above 40%. This is the best chance ever and you cannot persuade the people. They have spoken by their indifference to the narrow seperatist agenda.
202

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 10:36:13
Good post Hawkeye - you summed it all up nicely
203

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 10:36:25
Even better, when pressed Sturgeon argued it would be over for "a generation".

Pressed further, her generation wasn't the usual 30 years or so, but 10-15.

Scottish Nasty Party at it's best, finally rumbled as the sham they are.

You couldn't make it up.

204

Saul Tyre,

Germany 16/07/2008 10:38:45
'He quickly (!!!) added that he did not expect to have "another referendum the following day" if the Nationalists lost the first one.'

'Mr Mason tried to (!!!) spend yesterday focusing on the growing problem of fuel poverty, praising the Scottish Government for the number of central heating installations it had carried out last year and its plans to extend health checks to more people.'

Yes, a very impartial 'report'.

205

Dougie Douglas,

#233 16/07/2008 10:41:48
Er, have you heard of the referendum in '79?

It has been observed that the Scots are very loyal and their loyalty to Britain will take time to change. It is not in our charectar to say 'the war is going bad time to ditch that lot'.

The SNP must continue to be the most effective devolved government thus far - displaying competence and vision. By showing this leadership the SNP will gain loyalty and support for the concept of Independence
206

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:43:59
If Councillor Mason (now there's a name with connotations)or the rt hon Salmond intend to have regular referendums (be they be weeks or decades apart) until they get a yes vote. Will they promise to carry on holding them to see if the country wants to re-unite with the rest of the British Government of the British Isles? Of course, no such thing will happen, we all will be little bitty pawns for the EU parliamentarians to play with by then! They certainly won't allow us to play any part in choosing our Scottish management!
207

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 16/07/2008 10:46:17
I wholeheartedly applaud Mr Masson for his outright honesty. Now nobody has any excuse to say they did not know the SNP intention so BEWARE!
208

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:46:18
#239

Or should it be referenda? referendi? vote?
209

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 10:46:50
238. Good post

Except for the ICM poll last week showing support for independence at 39% vs 41% against, and last month showing support for at 41% vs 4-% against.
210

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16/07/2008 10:48:41
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211

Derek Emery,

Midlands 16/07/2008 10:53:26
Asking voters again and again until you obtain the correct answer is used all the time be the EU so it must be a very respectable way of proceeding. The EU prefers not to ask unreliable voters at all but rely upon politicians. Perhaps this is the way forward for the UK including Scotland? Do we need to allow people a meaningful vote at all on anything?
212

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 10:54:52
Mason is awesome, he illustrates what lies beneath Salmonds smug intelligence and Sturgeons little girl lost expression.
213

Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 11:00:17
Has Red Wendy been spotted out on the streets of Glasgow East battling for the Union????

What about David Marshall, ex MP for the constituency. Has he managed to hobble out and do battle for the glorious workers party that has served him and his family so well over the years????

What about Fatty Foolkes???

Has he been dispensing his pearls of wisdom to all and sundry???
214

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:00:23
#245

You really are brilliant, the question was written by a team of physcologists and tested to give the highest yes vote. Scotland would be leaving the UK that is a statement of fact. It doesn't matter as a minority Governmnet will not get to ask that question anyway and even that question only got a 33% yes vote in the latest polls.
215

European Scot,

16/07/2008 11:01:47
215 All Politicians ....

" Sturgeon, I wouldn't let her take charge of my shopping in Tesco never mind a country, as much command presence as your average pet rabbit."

246 All Politicians ....

".... and Sturgeon's little girl lost expression."

What a short memory you do have.
Nicola Sturgeon, in her first appearance at FMQ's standing in for Alex Salmond, tore Wendy Alexander apart, in a confident, competent and clinical way.
She displayed all those qualities you could ever wish for, in her role as Scotland's Depute First Minister.
It is your own level of competence, regarding personal judgement, which seems to have a rather large question mark hanging over it.
216

iainscott_8,

London 16/07/2008 11:02:46
RE: Message 4

How can the SNP be undemocratic when it is actively seeking a referendum on a major constitutioinal decision? A referndum is seeking the democratic consent of The People is it not?

The Nationalists in Scotland have wanted a referendum on Independence for decades (if not centuries). This has always been denied by the UK Parliament so how democratic is that?
217

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:03:46
Being better than Wendy Alexander is not actually a good standard. As per my moniker i have very little time for most politicians, I respect Alex Salmond even if I disagree with his central policy, but wee Nicola on the world stage don't make me laugh.
218

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 11:03:48
EXCUSE ME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that I have your attention -

Can we all use the Scotsman site to write in to Letters to the Editor to Complain about the Refusal of the Free Press to allow us to comment on stories regarding the Middle East (Bair NOT in Gaza), the Guantanamo Video and the Saudi-Russia-Iran weapons deal tri-angle!?!

If they do Not change this Policy, can we all write in to the Nationals exposing the Scotsman for what it is - left-wing, Blairist and censorial!!!

We need to do this, all on us!
219

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 11:04:02
248. We all know that the real question should be

"Do you want Scotland to be independent, given this will lead to doom, death of all first born, third world poverty, difficulties in receiving broadcasts of Coronation Street, Albanian style isolation and ill-fitting shoes"
220

Molz,

Porty 16/07/2008 11:04:46
If the heroic Shettleston people vote Labour they'll be voting for socialism,like they've always done, but they ain't going to get socialism from Labour.
It won't stop them trying again and again though, poor souls.
221

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:07:03
#253

No a simple "Do you want Scotland to leave the Uk and become an Independent Country?" will suffice.
222

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 11:07:53
What a peach:-

"Luke Skywalker,United Kingdom 16/07/2008 10:46:17
I wholeheartedly applaud Mr Masson for his outright honesty. Now nobody has any excuse to say they did not know the SNP intention so BEWARE!"

Er, which planet have you been on for the last 30 years Luke?
223

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:07:58
#255

Once again abuse but you do not deny the facts as to how the question came about.
224

iainscott_8,

London 16/07/2008 11:08:55
I was up in Scotland last week and took a walk around Glasgow East.

If what I saw there is typical of a labour run area then no small wonder that the Scots want away from the Union. If I was forced to live there I'd never vote Labour because labour have clearly taken the Glasgow folk for granted and treated them with total contempt.
225

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 11:11:07
#248 All the usual nonsense

If you want to talk facts.

Scotland would not be voting to leave the UK, as that implies that there would remain a UK after Scotland has left. So there's no point using an obviously inaccurate question.


What objection is there to a positively framed question?

The only reason I can see is that these apparently democratic unionists only want to hold a referendum if it is designed to fail.
226

Alfie Bett,

16/07/2008 11:13:27
As far as most independence seeking voters are concerned every single election is a question of the desire for independence if it were anything other than that it would deprive a young person who was just too young to vote in a referendum of the right to vote for independence until they were almost middle aged, while many of the unionists who voted to keep the union would be by that time long dead and keeping Scotland in the union from beyond the grave,literally the dead hand of unionism.
The more I see the comments of that David Cairns the more I think he holds the intelligence of the Scottish public in utter contempt,I mean great revelation!the SNP candidate wants independence! shock horror!just as well we found that oot eh.
He tries throwing in a few emotive words,breaking up Britain,extreme face of nationalism, he should thank his god(if he still has one other than GB) that extreme nationalism is non existant in the SNP before coming out with stupid statements like that.
227

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:14:07
The objection is that during the testing of the question it not only got more yes votes than a simple do you want to leave the UK, which would still exsist only with different members but more importantly, many people questioned thought that negotiations were not a final decision, hence the crucial choice of the word.
228

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 11:15:07
Why not "Do you wish Scotland to Secede from the Union?" Simple, effective, does what it says on the tin!!
229

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 11:15:57
Just gone into the lounge and asked my Australian wife (with no interest in Scottish politics) what the SNP's main aim was.

Imagine my shock when she said with a bewildered look on her face 'eh, Scottish Independence'

Not only is she a looker and a great mother but she is very sharp - she hasn't read the Scotsman this morning but could deduce that all by herself.

How the hell did she do that...........?

230

,

16/07/2008 11:16:29
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,

16/07/2008 11:17:31
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,

16/07/2008 11:18:07
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,

16/07/2008 11:18:32
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European Scot,

16/07/2008 11:19:01
248 All Politicians ....

" It doesn't matter as a minority 'Governmnet' will not get to ask that question anyway and even that question only got a 33% yes vote in the latest polls."

Apart from a question mark over your powers of personal judgement, there appears to be another one regarding your ability to deal with numbers.

I thought the latest polls were closer to 39%

251 All Politicians ....

" but wee Nicola on the world stage don't make me laugh.

Clearly you didn't see that session of PMQ's.
235

,

16/07/2008 11:20:01
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:20:38
I was born and live in a country called Britain that is Independent, within Britain we have Scotland and England and Wales and NI. So as far as i am concerned I do live in an Indpendent country that I do not want to see split up. Some people do, we differ we resove it democratically.
237

,

16/07/2008 11:21:11
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,

16/07/2008 11:21:11
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Conan the Librarian™,

16/07/2008 11:21:41
269
Good Morning Ciderman.
240

,

16/07/2008 11:21:50
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Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 11:22:16
#264

Seems not unreasonable to me, I imagine taht such plain language would not be to the liking of the unionists.

Any divergence between the nations in the UK will require a long and process of divying evrything up as.

It will be entertaining to see what position the Scottish unionist take when these negotiations are taking place.
242

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 11:24:16
274:

Why then do you accept and seem proud of British independence but Scottish independence is something you are not prepared to consider. Strange logic? In fact it's not logical at all.
243

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/07/2008 11:25:08
Hick, please ignore spelling @279 time for bed
244

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 16/07/2008 11:26:04
If Labour had been HONEST in the original independance vote in the 70's we would not have to keep asking. But what has Unionism given Scotland?
1 a loss of business investment ,as business rates are set according to the south's needs so encouraging business to move south.
2. Increased unemployment due to unfavourable business environment and the migration of businesses to the south
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/198830.stm
3 caused a population exodus,note there where less people in Scotland in 2006 than in 1961 and note the amount of ex-pat posters
5,116,900 (2006 est)
5,094,800 (2005 est)
5,078,400 (2004 est)
5,057,400 (2003 est)
5,054,800 (2002 est)
5,062,011 (2001 est)
5,083,000 (1991 est)
5,180,200 (1981 est)
5,234,000 (1971 est)
5,201,000 (1961 est)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Scotland
1961 - 43,983,300
1971 - 45,870,100
1981 - 46,623,500
1991 - 48,067,300
2001 - 49,138,831 [4]
2005 - 50,431,700 [5]
2006 - 50,762,900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_England
4 caused a Scottish "Brain drain",note the amount of well educated ex-pat posters paying thier taxes to foreign countries
5 caused english people to look at Scots as "subsidy junkies" where the FACTS seem to point the other way
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/trueoilwealth.html
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/myth1995.html
6 caused the Scots to blame the english for OUR problems ,instead of giving us the tools to deal with the problems ourselves.
7 a 25%-30%(at least) LOSS of living standards ,or a 30% Union Jack Tax.
Using the UK’s own assumptions for tax revenue and spending, but including Scotland’s share of North Sea Oil receipts, this answer revealed that between 1978-79 and 1994-95 Scotland had a cumulative surplus of £27.6 billion, or £34 billion in today’s prices. At the same time the UK had a deficit of more than £330bn.
All very OBVIOUS EFFECTS of the unwanted ,forced marrige of "the union" . It was not wanted then
245

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/07/2008 11:26:36
Even if the SNP wins the referendum the first time round there will be another referendum.

The SNPs prefered question is to ask for the power to negotiate independence.

Once that negotiation is completed the results will have to be put to the people of Scotland again.

If they ratify that, then there will be independence.

If in an independant Scotland the majority in Parliament wants to negotiate a return to some sort of union with the whats left of the UK then they will be free to hold more referendums.

This unionist argument that once you have independance their is no return is a lie. It will be possible, but only if the people of Scotland and rump UK can agree on equitable terms.

To claim that with independance comes the suspension of democracy is a measure of how desperate the unionists have become.
246

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:27:19
#266

its been proven legal thats all, yes I think it is wrong to use a long worded question that only exsists to maximise the answer the questioner wants opposed to a short and simple to the point question. As to FMQs anyone can look good debating with pygmies.
247

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 16/07/2008 11:27:39
cont./ All very OBVIOUS EFFECTS of the unwanted ,forced marrige of "the union" . It

was not wanted then ,its not wanted now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707
I could go on.....

If you want UNIONISM ,then be HONEST and admit that is the PRICE we must pay

for it, I think its a complete rip off!

So what exactly is the benefit of the union?
Defence ? - well Scotland is stuck in 2 ILLEGAL wars right now ,thanks to the

union. So NO it makes us LESS SAFE and wastes billions in pounds and caused

untold slaughter and misery and creates MORE TERRORISM .D'AH

Standard of Living ? - NO ,as I said we are 25% to 30% ,at least, WORSE OFF

thanks to the union. So what's that about higher/tartan taxes?!?!

Trade ?- NO, as has been demonstrated business rates are set for the south of

england even if it means unemployment in the north.It causes UNEMPLOYMENT and a

DECREASE in trade!!

EVERY Business Analyst I work with,and I work with a lot, thinks Scotland would

be financially BETTER OFF INDEPENDENT . Despite what AM2 says,i have always

found his economic arguements either niave,blinkered or just plain decietful , this was the man who proudly endorsed the strength of the the British economy , which then promptly collapsed under the economic pressures I pointed out. Also the Adam Smith Institute and his beloved Whitehall both disagree with him ,from

both the left and the right.
View from the LEFT
"LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whitehall dossier 30 years ago of the

powerful case for Scotland becoming independent with booming oil revenues, but

the information was kept confidential by Harold Wilson's government to keep

nationalism at bay.
The dossier, most of which was written by a leading government economist in

1974 and 1975, sets out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest

currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the

same way as Switzerl
248

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/07/2008 11:29:37
#285

At least do some research, Iraq which I think may be illegal has never been proven so and Afghanistan is a UN approved action.
249

Rufus T. Firefly,

16/07/2008 11:30:00
Excellent work AM2.

You certainly know how to get the Natz spitting blood.

As always your posts are spot on, based on fact and always polite.

The natz do not like that however. As always all they can do is resort to insults.

Look at HEN BROON for example. What a state to get yourself into. I think he may just implode.


250

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 16/07/2008 11:32:53
EVERY Business Analyst I work with,and I work with a lot, thinks Scotland would be financially BETTER OFF INDEPENDENT . Despite what AM2 says,i have always found his economic arguements either niave,blinkered or just plain decietful ,but he is entitled to his view .but this was the man who proudly endorsed the strength of the the British economy , which then promptly collapsed under the economic pressures I pointed out. Also the Adam Smith Institute and his beloved Whitehall both disagree with him ,from both the left and the right.
View from the LEFT
"LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whitehall dossier 30 years ago of the powerful case for Scotland becoming independent with booming oil revenues, but
the information was kept confidential by Harold Wilson's government to keep nationalism at bay.
The dossier, most of which was written by a leading government economist in 1974 and 1975, sets out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the same way as Switzerland.
It argued Scotland could quickly become one of Europe's strongest economies with "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses."

View from the RIGHT
"Adam Smith Institute, Friday, April 27, 2007
The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent, leaving the average Scot many thousands of pounds better off each year. This is
the finding of a research Briefing Paper published today by the Adam Smith Institute, the free market economic think tank."

and finally do you think that Holland , Finland , Austria , Denmark, Luxemburg etc. would give up thier soverignty to Germany or Russia for economic reasons!?!? What about the Czech Republic ,Slovakia ,Slovenia , Croatia , Bosnia , Estonia , Latvia , Lithuania etc . etc etc. have they all realised what a big stupid mistake they have made by becoming independent soverign countries. I think the best a unionist could do for a come back was talk about
251

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 11:34:35
279

Oh gods, you're right there - the Unionists are even now gathering Lol.

As for the divvying up, the Civil Service will be delighted to, how many will it keep in jobs?
252

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 11:34:39
Is AM2 still here. Last time i looked on here about a month ago he posted a long letter of resignation with a very high moral tone, has he come back? Has he gone back on his word to no longer contribute to the discussion boards?

He is a used car salesman or something like that i believe?
253

westview,

standing up for a better way. 16/07/2008 11:34:45
Independence GOOD, dependence BAD.
254

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 16/07/2008 11:35:12
And Finally cont./
I think the best a unionist could do for a come back was talk about Bavaria in the 19th Century ...I think that says alot about the mind set of unionists, HELLO guys its the 21st Century.Surely if it is of great benefit to give up our soverignty to London ,to be the 5th biggest economy , then it would be even better to give our soverignty to Brussels and be the BIGGEST economy ,which the eurozone now is!
and the UK LOST 34.8 BILLION POUNDS in 2006 , surely by unionist logic, the UK is a non viable independant state.
Sorry for the rant but it had to be said , now back to work for me!
255

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:36:27
238

1. Polls don’t consistently show that. Some polls have shown support for independence ahead of support for the SNP and vice versa. Public opinion is fluid. What is consistent is that most people want more powers for the Scottish Parliament and want the Scottish Government (not Westminster) to run Scotland.

2. The question we propose is based on what will happen if people vote yes. It would be misleading to suggest that we would become independent the day after a yes vote – we wouldn’t, as the details will need to be negotiated between the Scottish and London Governments.

3. On what basis would the result be actionable? Spell it out. Note that you can't go to court simply because you dislike the outcome of any particular vote but only because there has been some flaw in the process which breaches legislation.
256

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 11:38:07
Just ask any unionists to name a country that would hand back it's independence? The have no argument and they know it, quite why they are unionists i don't know, they strike me as becoming those rather repugnant Rangers fans who wear English shirts..just cause they want to..quite pathetic really
257

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:39:03
286 What makes you think it is Afghanistan he is referring to?

There are indications that certain UK troops are already in Iran.

That is surely illegal even by UK standards?
258

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 11:41:08
#282 Cuthlan

Almost all European countries are losing native-born population. This is just as true of England as it is of Scotland. In both countries deaths and emigrants outnumber births. The English population has increased in the last few years only because of immigration.
Perhaps we should ask why fewer immigrants have come to Scotland. There may be lots of reasons but one may be the Anglophobia of many Scots. England is the nearest and biggest source of immigrants - but English people living in Scotland are often made to feel uncomfortable and return to England. Consider John Mason, schools, football and English flags.
259

Rufus T. Firefly,

16/07/2008 11:43:03
#290 Oh yes, AM2 is back and don't the Natz know it.

So there is no country that would hand back their independence?

260

Cuthulan,

amsterdam 16/07/2008 11:45:43
#286
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/
This memo shows that Tony Blair KNEW there where no WMD's in Iraq ,but he still went on to give his "45 minutes speach" Thus he LIED to Parliment ,which make him a traitor to the British crown. He also started a pre-emtive war on a non hostile country . Thats a crime against humanity and makes him a War Criminal.
261

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 11:47:57
#217 Miss H
You write that "It's all about terms and definitions". I think you are mistaken. Devolution admits of many variants. Independence has only one meaning. To date the majority of Scots have not been convinced of the arguments for independence.
Also the political arithmetic does not work. The SNP needs to win an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament to have any kind of a referendum. There is very little chance of this.
262

Talorthane,

16/07/2008 11:48:11
284 All Politicians are the same

"its been proven legal thats all, yes I think it is wrong to use a long worded question that only exsists to maximise the answer the questioner wants opposed to a short and simple to the point question."

That makes no sense at all.

According to this logic a short question will get a negative response, so:

"Do you want less taxation?"

...will be rejected by voters.



But a long question, such as:

"Do you agree that MPs expenses should be increased above inflation and abolish any need to provide invoices?"

...is more likely to be approved.



It's nothing to do with the length of the question, but whether it is understandable, and (legally) whether it acurately reflects its purpose without bias.
263

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 11:49:04
298:

name all the independenet countries that would give their independence back?
If independence is (as many of the unionists claim) akin to armageddon perhaps they would name all the European countries that have failed after they have taken this route, surely this is a good indication if it works or not?
264

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:49:10
297 You are now descending to lies to make a point which is not even clear.
265

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:50:51
301 As I said it is for people like you to reconcile how the Scottish Government can run Scotland while being controlled by Westminster. You are not really giving any indication that you can make that case.
266

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16/07/2008 11:51:07
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Yr Awel,

Here & There 16/07/2008 11:51:18
27 Ratzo

So the SNP's agenda is post-nationalist? But this would be the case only if they refrained from trying to impose upon 5.1 million of 'us' their own definition, which is, I am sorry to say, not mine, not that of a majority either. To me indeed, nationhood and statehood don't have to be co-terminous; in fact, they should not be, so exclusiveness (hopefully) is finally ruled out.
As to your Europe, it is dead even before it is born. This is because, in your view (correct me if I am wrong) the yardstick of politics is nationhood, which is clearly the opposite of what the European project is about (we e.g. share the political with, say, the Italians, not the national).

134 Jimmy the Pie

Your post verges on the insulting. The parallel with Tibet, I am sorry, is laughable! 1 - in Tibet, if you fly the national flag, you end in prison for a, well, CONSIDERABLE period of time; 2 - CRUCIALLY, the term nation there is NOT contested terrain. See above my answer to Ratzo.

165 / 196 AM2

Excellent posts.

181 Miss H

Could define the term 'democracy' please? I think # 203 has part of the answer...

217 Miss H

You say: 'the Scottish Government ... is subservient to the UK Government.' But this can hardly be. Westminster will be 'us' so long as we keep participating in Westminster (precisely) elections. Talking about which, one may ask the question: why is it that turnouts have been consistently higher for General Elections than for 'regional ones'?
To understand this paradox and the one you are talking about, may I give you some advice? Please read the following: Charles Pattie, Patrick Seyd & Paul Whiteley, Citizenship in Britain: Values, Participation and Democracy, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004. It is full of surprises, not very good ones for Nationalists though.

222 Miss H

Your argument cuts both ways actually...



268

Rufus T. Firefly,

16/07/2008 11:52:48
#303 You are correct that there is a long list of countries that have gained independence.
However, I cannot possibly pass judgement on them all, deciding which ones would regret it and which ones would not.

But you can apparently?
269

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:54:35
307 The Scottish Parliament is subservient to Westminster - that's a fact. Westminster retains supreme power to legislate in all devolved areas and can over rule the Scottish Parliament at any time.
270

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000miles from Earth's core 16/07/2008 11:55:04
FYI
THis is what the War in Iran will be about . NOT non -existant WMD's!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse
Iran has started selling Oil in Euros
This is what Saddam did in Iraq and look what happened there. MOre Lies about non-existant WMD's
http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/background/oilexports.html
Other countries that do this include Venezuala and Russia ,both of whom are getting a lot of BAD press from the western media. If you can buy Oil in Euro's you can kiss the dollar(petrodollar) goodbye.Do not invest in dollars !!!
271

Miss H,

16/07/2008 11:55:17
308 How many of them have tried to end their independence?

272

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

Dunny Wells, Kent 16/07/2008 11:56:33
301 - Publius, London

"To date the majority of Scots have not been convinced of the arguments for independence."

All very well, old boy, now can you state what the majority of English People want?



273

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 16/07/2008 11:57:26
The original issue got lost here. The SNP MPs at Westminster are in the main highly-regarded, diligent and hard-working, and have a reputation for holding the Executive to account. Although in favour of independence, they recognise that there are other day-to-day issues to get on with. Unluke John Mason, it seems
274

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 11:59:44
308:

Not 1 of them regret it and well you know it.
275

Ronaldinho Glavin,

16/07/2008 12:02:11
1. Does John Mason have experience of asking people to marry him?

2. If we go independent, can we re-join when the oil runs out?
276

Miss H,

16/07/2008 12:02:41
313 Don't be so naive. Yesterday John Mason spent the day campaigning on fuel poverty. That's a very pertinent issue in Glashow East. The decision of the Scotsman to focus on how he answered a question they put to him to the exclusion of everything else was their decision not his. The story was probably written before the question was asked.
277

Miss H,

16/07/2008 12:03:05
315 1. Don't know. 2. Yes.
278

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:03:35
311:

Again not 1. All European models show that independence works, it's quite simple really and unionists have no answer to it.
279

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:06:28
Wonder what we gem Mr Mason intends bringing to the debate today.

Poo sod will have been up all night, facing his inquisitors, sorry the party leadership and spin doctors.

"noo remember Joan, ye dinna says this, yis says this"....

He'll be absolutely shattered. Just ripe for another gaffe or two).

Can't wait.
280

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:08:38
301

Or to put it another way, as recent polls show....

We don't want it.
281

Richardinho,

16/07/2008 12:09:48
'SNP man supports independence'.

What can we expect next from the Scotsman-'Pope a Catholic', 'Bears defecate in woods'?
282

Yr Awel,

Here & There 16/07/2008 12:09:54
309 Miss H

Sorry, but: what a disappointing answer!
The logic of it is: we should never have voted FOR devolution in the first place.
For those of us who feel that they can be in at least two places at the same time (long live the political!), no institution is subservient to any other. The rest, it seems to me, is pure ideology.
283

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:10:40
'we' will when the Tories are in power i feel!
284

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 12:13:56
#312 Neal etc

Most English people have no view on Scottish independence at all. This is not surprising. For Scots living in Scotland England is the 'significant other' ('an elephant in the bed'). But Scotland hardly figures in the minds of English living in England.
Since devolution parts of the right wing press (mail, Telegraph, Kelvin McKenzie - ex-Sun) and parts of the lunatic fringe (English National Party) have tried to generate English resenment against Scotland. But to no noticeable effect.
285

Richardinho,

16/07/2008 12:15:38
It makes me laugh when I hear people complain about the prospect of having several referendums on whether to remain part of the union, when in 300 years we've yet to have ONE!
286

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:18:56
326:

To no noticable effect? Have you been on any of the English discussion boards....they call the Scots 'smelly socks' and 'spongers'..jockland is common..haggis eaters...dole monkeys another, subsidy junkies common of course

i think you should look at them really!
287

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:19:09
326 Good post. Concur completely.

Very much under the radar, despite the best efforts of Angus Robertson and his band of merry men.
288

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:19:50
The English are beginning to detest the Scots and i don't blame them, there are some Scots i detest myself!
289

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 12:20:27
326

Publius - Ah, well I'm English born an bred, living in Kent (just down the road fom you eh?) and I have to say that Scotland does figure in mine at least.

I must say I've not noticed any particular anti-scottish press or feeling. I'm certainly not anti at all, but yes, I would love Scotland to be Independent.

I'm not British . . .

I'm ENGLISH, from ENGLAND!

Let them sort their own country out, that's what they want, let 'em.

Good Luck SNP
290

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 12:21:18
#311 Miss H

I am unaware of any country currently seeking to merge with another. But there are European instances other than our own 1707 Union.

For example, Salzburg, now part of Austria, was independent until 1803. Bavaria was incorporated into the German Empire only in 1871. Brittany was independent for over 700 years before joining France.

So I think the converse question is more pertinent. Would you like to see Western Europe balkanise?

Obviously, as an SNP member, you want Scotland to leave Britain. But would you see advantage in Salzburg seceding from Austria, Bavaria opting out of Germany and Brittany splitting from France?

Not to mention the following. All of these have separatist movements:

• Åland (Finland)
• Alsace (France)
• Andalusia (Spain)
• Basque Country (Spain)
• Catalonia (Spain)
• Corsica (France)
• Faroes (Denmark)
• Flanders (from Belgium)
• Friesland (Netherlands).
• Galicia (Spain)
• Greenland (Denmark)
• Lapland (Finland)
• Navarre (Spain)
• Padania (Italy)
• Sardinia (Italy)
• Savoy (France)
• Saxony (Germany)
• Thuringia (Germany)
• Wallonia (Belgium).

So would you want to see fragmented, enfeebled European micro-states and reduced global influence? Why? What possible advantage could there be in that?
291

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 12:22:42
#304 Miss H

The point is perfectly clear. Cuthlan attributed Scotland's sluggish population growth to the union with England. I pointed out that almost all European countries - east and west, north and south - are losing native-born population because deaths and emigrants exceed births. (I could have added that 25 years ago there were 100 Europeans for every 75 Middle Easterners/North Africans. Today the ration is 100:100. In 25 years time the ration will 75 European to 100 Middle Easterners/North Africans.)
This suggests a Europe-wide phenomenon of declining birth rates and mobile populations. Some European countries, including England, have been able to grow their population because immigration has been bigger than emigration. Scotland has not.
Qestion is why. My answer was lots of reasons. One reason is probably hostility to English immigrants by some Scots.
292

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 12:26:29
#328 Nevsky

The boards don't represent a cross-section of opinion. Very few English would contribute to a board on Scottish politics.
I suspect that some of the distasteful comments are from Scottish nationalists who see themselves as agents provocateurs.
293

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:27:04
AM2:

So you admit that there is not 1 country that would hand back it's independence? Then you must also agree that independence is therefore a practically unqualified success?

Your point as a unionist is what then?
294

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:27:51
320

Interesting to see The Herald, normally trumpetted as the other bastion of Unionism, now getting the thumbs up.

Here's something to ponder.

While sales of Scottish edition tabloid newspapers remain healthy, indigenous titles continuing to decline.

If this trend continues Scotland’s two remaining quality broadsheets could be out of business within a decade.

The end may be sooner than we think.

The 32 local authorities are planning to transfer all vacancy adverts to their own new website to save money.

That'll cost The Hootsman and Herald £m's.

295

Regal Bankie,

Clydebank 16/07/2008 12:28:56
#332

Why doesn't the UK join the Euro which would demonstrate that we don't live in a micro state within the EU.
296

Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:29:49
334:

Not on Scottish politics but just on the 'smelly socks' running England (a common theme)...backed up with plenty of rather unpleasant English zenophobic sentiment; not i think from Scottish nationalists.
297

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 12:32:02
#332 AM2

A long list, but none of these separatist movements has achieved independence. Even Belgium hangs together - just.
The main interest to us is that some European states oppose all independence movements because they think their own integrity may be threatened.
Spain and Cyprus vetoed EU recognition of Kosovan independence. Greece has said she will veto any EU application by Macedonia
298

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16/07/2008 12:32:06
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Jimmy the Pie,

16/07/2008 12:33:03
I have just listened to PMQs and noticed that Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon seems to have developed a stutter.
He is sounding a bitty deluded.

Do you think the pressure is beginning to tell???

His answers were rambling and incoherent (that includes the planted questions)

The padded cell isn't far away now I fear!!!
300

Yr Awel,

Here & There 16/07/2008 12:35:34
335 Nevsky

There is one huge country though... and it's called the EU: EUROPEAN U-N-I-O-N!
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16/07/2008 12:36:05
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Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:36:07
328

Desperate.

As anyone who visits England knows only too well, such boards aren't representative of the average English man and woman.
303

Publius,

London 16/07/2008 12:37:03
#336
Good point. Johnston Press (owner of Scotsman) is under pressure because of falling advertising revenue in its local newspaper empire. A lot of employers now prefer to advertise on-line - it is cheaper. Also decline in the economy is reducing every kind of advertising.
And it's not just papers. ITV and Channel 4 have lost a lot of revenue too. ITV shares are down by a half since this time last year.
304

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16/07/2008 12:37:14
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Nevsky,

Moscow 16/07/2008 12:37:48
339:

It does not answer the central point that independent countries succeed. There is no country to which you can point that has been a failure or where the people would hand back their independence.

Unionists have no answer to this and Scotland is not Kosovo or Macedonia so drawing and parallel is quite out of context.
306

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 12:38:22
This will be unpopular - read PROPERLY before shouting please.

It strikes me that the reason there is less immigration to Scotland is because there is a perception, probably not restricted to JUST the English, that Scotland is Cold, Bleak, Wet, Mountainous, and has very little to offer the Modern City Sophisticat.

Only having been to Scotland once in my life (Forfar for a Wedding - not mine) I could see why people could that.

Fairly average town, reasonable architecture, high unemployment (at that time), cold, raining, unfriendly people! We walked into a pub on the Friday night, absolutely JAMMED wi' punters, I mean 200 or so and the pub went UTTERLY SILENT - all eyes on us and you could feel the daggers man, seriously!

The majority of English people would think that could be in Anytown in the Union, I'm sorry but WHAT can you offer? scenery is not enough, public transport is basic - gods forbid you should want to cross Scotland by PT - seen enough debates on these boards about to know that.

Even with an Independent Scotland could your Capital City offer what London has? I do apologise for this but it IS TRUE.
307

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16/07/2008 12:38:41
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16/07/2008 12:39:24
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16/07/2008 12:41:20
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16/07/2008 12:42:58
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16/07/2008 12:44:00
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16/07/2008 12:44:54
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 12:44:57
#307 Yr Awel

You said: “To me indeed, nationhood and statehood don't have to be co-terminous; in fact, they should not be, so exclusiveness (hopefully) is finally ruled out.”

I’m not sure that I entirely agree with the “should not be” aspect of that statement, but nonetheless it strikes me as a succinct and pertinent expression of the ideal which unionism could, and should, embody.

My unionism is about four nations (or principalities/provinces/whatever) sharing sovereignty for mutual benefit. I find that whole concept inspiringly inclusive and indeed “non-nationalist”. The European Union, albeit to a lesser extent due to its supra-state structure, is admirable for similar reasons.

On a personal level, I like my multi-faceted identity: within Britain with its distinctly, but non-exclusive, Scottish and Irish aspects, and outwith the UK as a European. I perceive a richness and openness which more monochromatic senses of identity seem to lack.

So for example, I really quite enjoy seeing the saltire, union flag and EU stars fluttering side-by-side. They’re a potent symbol of the inclusive sharing of sovereignty inherent in the union ideal, and I think removing any plank of that would diminish us greatly.

Did that make sense? It’s a tricky concept to articulate without seeming “gushy”.
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16/07/2008 12:45:23
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16/07/2008 12:48:08
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16/07/2008 12:49:38
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16/07/2008 12:49:39
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Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 16/07/2008 12:49:54
Ordinary Scots are beaten with a large stick when they express an opinion on the English. Unionist get outraged and bang drums. Yet they don't see that this: "330 Nevsky,Moscow 16/07/2008 12:19:50
The English are beginning to detest the Scots and i don't blame them, there are some Scots i detest myself!" is real racism.

You can hate Scots - that's fine, they deserve it but you can't form an opinion on the English or you get hung out to dry.

What a slave mentality!
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 12:51:54
#340 Hawkeye

I merely listed some sub-state nations or regions which have independence movements. In so doing, I was not denigrating Scotland or claiming that they all have the same right to be considered as a "nation". You're beating a straw man with that argument.
320

Sedov,

Barnsley 16/07/2008 12:52:47
#1 AM A correct analysis which I have been trying to get across for the past two years but have been accused by the Salmond worshippers of scaremongering. Behind the claim from SNP supporters that the SNP are a social democrat party who just want Scotland to get a better deal through independence lies the more idealistic side of nationalism which I grew to know in my brief flirtation with the SNP when Sillars was the leader and which caused me to resign in horror. The SNP are for complete independence come what may and they will stop at nothing to get where they want. Its scary really as history has taught us that an extreme end to such examples of nationalist obsession (eg hating the English) is a one party state. I will go no further than that - but this is a warning to the people of Scotland to where nationalism can eventually lead.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 12:53:51
#354 Hawkeye

You claimed: “We don't want to sever relations with England and Wales. We want to improve them, actually.”

Who’s “we”? Not John Mason, evidently. Let me run that quote by you again.

He said: “I'm in politics for one reason and that is to break up the UK and so any suggestion of a strengthening of a link between Scotland and England is what I’m opposed to.”
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16/07/2008 12:55:00
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Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 12:55:36
345

Salmond will stop at nothing in his desperate attempts to sway voters to the Separatist cause.

Notice that today he is an avowed supporter of the Monarchy, sterling, financial sector, etc. His idea is to try and paint a picture that we wouldn't really have left.

Either he (or oe of his lackeys) has also claimed that if we didn't like it (separation from Great Britain|) then we could always rejoin the Union!!

Thanks, but no thanks.

BTW, when's the BBC TV debate.



324

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 16/07/2008 12:56:05
Sedov,
Thanks for the warning. Of course there is evidence of where British nationalism leads: Iraq where 1.5 million Muslims have been killed, most of them children. All for oil.

Yes, independence really is freedom from extremism!
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Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 16/07/2008 12:56:11
#296 Are northern Ireland not part of this Union? I thought that's what all the fighting was about. Or did I dream it?
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Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 16/07/2008 12:58:40
Hey who's messing with the post numbers?
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 12:58:54
#352 Steve_HMFC

Such slurs are both unhelpful and unfair.

The SNP can in no way be compared to a "Nazi Party".
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 13:06:47
#365 Hawkeye

I freely concede that the value I place on unions (both in terms of the composition of the UK and beyond) isn't shared by the Orange Order, BNP etc. I probably find all that as distasteful as you.

The rest of your post makes no sense. You seem to think unions are unworkable unless they swallow up their constituent identities. I disagree, as do the vast majority of British people, and a clear majority in each of the UK's constituent countries.

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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/07/2008 13:09:54
#323 AM2

"So would you want to see fragmented, enfeebled European micro-states and reduced global influence? Why? What possible advantage could there be in that?"

This argument is made utterly irrelavent by the treaty of Lisbon.

It no longer matters if the EU is divided into 27 member states as it is currently or if all the "Micro-States" that you listed came into being.

With a European President and Foreign Minister the EU will speak for Spain or the UK wether it is unitary or subdiveded into its component parts.

The advantage is that within the European superstate each of these microstates would be free to persue policies that are to their advantage without that being overriden by membership in an increasingly irrelevant memberstate like the UK.

As they are smaller decisions and governance become locally based and more responsive to the needs of the public.

Face it, the UK was a relevant way to go in the Age of Empire. For the last 100 years it has gradually become less of a benefit to the point that membership in the UK is now holding Scotland back from reaching its potential.


330

Sedov,

Scotland 16/07/2008 13:12:35
#360 - No - that is the other side of the coin - imperialism - which I am just as opposed to.
331

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 16/07/2008 13:14:09
I also will not stop pressing for Scottish Independance. Unlike the Unionist Trolls on here I do not see it as being the breakup of the UK, I see it as Scotland leaving the Act Of Union in the same way as it would be for the former Soviet satellite countries, or Kosovo. They simply wish to return to running their own affairs in the same way as Ghandi led the Indian People to Independance.

The difference between the Unionists and a Scottish Independance Voter is we have no other motive other than the nobal cause of self determination, which is every Sovereign Nations Right in International Law.

The greed of the Unionists to retain Scottish Natural Resources to bail out their failed Political System is an abomination to every civilised free thinking person.
332

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16/07/2008 13:15:22
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Matt there,

Somewhere 16/07/2008 13:15:23
"SNP 'to keep asking until voters give right answer'"

Oh. Just like Labour does with other issues?
334

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 13:16:31
#370 KampungHighlander

So, you have concerns about the Lisbon treaty. You seem to think that each country's sovereignty is diminished. But please explain how that's so damaging to the UK's interests, as the second largest economy in the EU, but would enhance those of an independent Scotland.
335

Phil1,

Edinburgh 16/07/2008 13:18:09
365 Hawkeye the Noo,16/07/2008 13:00:26

I don't think quoting Germany or Italy as examples of unions where all the parts have completely become only Germany or Only Italy has any bearing on reality.

Having lived in both countries I know that the Bavarian is German and also Bavarian and they keep their own customs and even language. In Italy those in Lombard region and scily (or Umbria etc) have retained their distinct identities.In US Claifornians are not the same as those in Texas and Neither is someone from Quebec the same as someone from British Columbia.There are scor3es of similar examples throughout the world similar to the UK.

The Union of Crowns in 17th Century and then Union of Parliaments in 18th Century have stood the test of time and despite anti-English sentiments from many members of the SNP the Scottish people remain welcoming to all vistors and immigrants.

Personal abuse is the refuge of the wicked and evil and shows that those who abuse have lost the argument.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 13:21:25
#372 A Better Way

You said: “I also will not stop pressing for Scottish Independance.”

Given your comments about “the Scottish Race” as your “own kind”, your references to non-nationalists as “the enemy”, your statement that in an independent Scotland that “our political system will be open to all, except Unionist Traitors” and your stated desire to “get rid of the English Scourge”, I can’t say I’m surprised.

What kind of “pressing”, though? I am alluding to your statement that “the freedom fighters of the IRA and Sin Fein gave Northern Ireland a Parliament”.
337

AM2,

Scotland,UK 16/07/2008 13:22:57
Anyway, enough - before he retaliates. I'm off out to enjoy this weather.
338

Miss H,

16/07/2008 13:26:03
356 Jim Sillars was never the leader of the SNP. Are you sure you were a member?
339

brownlie,

16/07/2008 13:28:26
373

Dear me, Paisley Pete, you really are running out of monikers when you feel you have to borrow the esteemed and estimable Conan's name! Still a bit improvement on yesterday's despicable moniker.
340

The Tin Man,

16/07/2008 13:36:43
#338 Nevski

What about Ukraine? Belarus? Kyrygistan?
341

The Tin Man,

16/07/2008 13:37:00
Moldova?
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Miss H,

16/07/2008 13:37:54
315 The UK Parliament retains ultimate power to legislate for Scotland on all matters.
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Suomi,

Salo,Finland 16/07/2008 13:38:00
Like John Mason,I joined the SNP because I want independance,a normal situation that the majority of people take for granted.I rather hope that should there be a referendum,it will be won.However,if not,of course there will be others,since we cannot set the future in tablets of stone for future generations.The question of when we have another referendum will be settled by the will of the people and whether they give a mandate at a future election.

I do not believe that independance is a single issue since the ability to grow the Scottish economy and to spend Scotlands income is directly correelated with the powers that independance brings.John Mason,a highly respected councillor understand only very well that independance can free up the resouces needed to address the poverty that exists in Glagow East.I have no idea who will win this by election but I wish John Mason every success in his efforts to help his constituents.
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Boggle fey the Bog,

16/07/2008 13:39:26
352 Steve_HMFC,16/07/2008 12:49:39

Correct!!! 100%!!! Spot on !!!...............Eh!!!

It's nice to see that you have finally woken up and become a non-unionist.

Pray enlighten myself and the other good users of this shining example of the Scotsman's commitment to freedom of speech and the right to reply, these humble, but hallowed forums!

Was it perchance when you realsied that the Fuhrer Broon, decided that he would not have any referenda, not even one to elect himself, or was it when Fuhrer Broon tacitly backed the Franco-Germanic Reich when they decided that Eire should have another referendum and keep having referenda until the Freedom Fighters of Eire voted 'correctly' and surrendered their country to the Franco-German Reich.

Or was it some other great epiphany?

We wait, with bated breath, for your forthcoming pronouncements.....not!!!
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George Mackay,

Dundee 16/07/2008 13:41:27
339
You think Forfar is a hostile place. You can't have been to Brechin. In Forfar they don't like strangers. My Auntie Jean (great auntie really) says that in Brechin they hate their neighbours. She had to move to Coupar Angus, because they didn't like her going out with a yank. But it was 1947.
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Miss H,

16/07/2008 13:41:37
376 Hint - when trying to tar the SNP with a racist brush it may be best not to do so on the day a report is published urging the UK Government to take a lead from the SNP Government on the way asylum seekers are treated.
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Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 13:45:05
Have just emailed to Ed's letters regarding the unwarranted removal of posts and the limited stories available to be commented on . . .

Expect me to be removed . . .
348

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 16/07/2008 13:51:16
Heres an intersting Link that reminds us what the Unionist Labour Party think of the Scottish Peoples intelligence.

Have a look and make up your own mind, thats if you have one if you are a Unionist Troll.
http://www.order-order.com/2008/07/exclusive-glasgow-east-labour-fakes-93.html
349

Scottish 'N British,

16/07/2008 13:52:19
Jim Sillars was the real face of the SNP, when it was a party that was unelectable, but principled.

In Sillars' day, the SNP was a left-wing, high tax and spend party that sought to target the rich, hated Europe (even more than the Union with England) and, curoiusly, openly campaigned for Separation for Scotland.

In his day,

Great Satan
Butcher's Apron
Send the Brits packing

were scandalous statements openly said, unapologetic and never to be denied.

Contrast this with today's band of withered opportunists who, fearful of the response from the Scots public, choose to campaign on a vote for Separation.

Weak and unprincipled.
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Alan B,

16/07/2008 13:53:47
#Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

I think lack of immigration has to do with the economy. People gravitate to a good job market. Irelands population increased with immigration and also repartriation when it started booming. The weather also means you would not come if you are looking for sun.

As for comparing edinburgh or glas to london it really depends on what you are looking for. Same with Dublin. What does london offer? I lived in london for about 7yrs and that was solely down to the job market. Firstly to get a job and experience and then as more and better jobs were available making it difficult to get something comparable back home. It really depends on what interests you and what age your are. If you like an outdoor lifestyle or like sport london is useless. As is the flexibility to jump in car and go somewhere. London generally seen as not being a good place to raise a family. But has attractions if you are younger. It is better if you like the arts. For nightlife it really depends on your social crowds. Personally i prefer glas and ed for weekend drinking and clubbing (when i was younger) but london for weekday drinking.

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16/07/2008 13:54:44
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Alan B,

16/07/2008 13:57:54
#Scottish 'N British

When Sillars was high in the snp Salmond was leader first time round.

Sillars as a leader was when he broke from labour to form real labour or scottish labour. Around the time of the undemocratic referendum of 79.

As for being anti british Sillars wanted to keep the pound.

353

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 16/07/2008 14:01:03
Why is it you never actually answer the gist of my comment. How is it you run away from posting your drivel because you were outed by an Independance supporter only to reappear at a later date preaching your Unionist rubbish.

The tone of my post is what it is all about, not whether we favour the breaking up of a Union with a foreign nation, but rather reassuming Sovereign the Rights of our Nation to persue its own future direction in the same way as Ghandi did. The democratic process.
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Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:01:45
So the SNP is "To keep asking until voters give the right answer" I am entirely in agreement-they should keep asking until the voters finally say "NO!"

Hope everybody is ok and that none of u are finding this stuff too stressful :)
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Andra, Dundee,

16/07/2008 14:02:23
I am concerned that if the desire for independence slips above the 50% threshold for a short spell and we happen to have a referendum then we will be stuck with independence for ever.
Would it not be reasonable to require a 50% vote in two succeeding referendums set 20 years apart before we take the plunge. Either that or the initial target is set at 60% or 70%.
356

Yr Awel,

Here & There 16/07/2008 14:04:49
386 Miss H

You give me the same answer as you did early on. My statement in 315 was, I hoped, a little more subtle. Again, I am disappointed.

348 AM2

Whatever the wording of my statement, I am, I expect, 100% on the same wavelength. I cannot think of anything to add to your subtle and rich post. Honest!

387 Suomi

You write: 'Like John Mason,I joined the SNP because I want independance,a normal situation that the majority of people take for granted.'
So those of us who believe in interdependence are not ... 'normal'? Normality, like nationalism, has a whiff of historical inevitability about it that I find hard to reconcile with facts, i.e. the diversity our societies are made of.

391 Miss H

Racism has to do with a lot more than immigrants and colour...

365 Hawkeye

You write: 'The German or Italian states can form a union and agree to call themselve Italian and German because there is a sense of unity under the national desginations of German and Italian. This is not the case in the UK.'
I am afraid this is not the case in Scotland or Wales EITHER. See the implication?


357

Yr Awel,

Here & There 16/07/2008 14:07:42
409

Independence being a one-off, I think you are 100% right to raise the question.
358

Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:08:17
405 Meths -howsit Meths! Yes that 2p would be an election winner!
402 Methalions-yes Labour made themselves electable by shifting to 'greener pastures' as have the Tories with their new soft image-Blue and GREEN(yes GREEN) logo to boot. Neither of them are now true to their working class/business class roots. The big question is though-have the voters of britain( small 'b' to cover everyone) changed so that parties of conviction-left and right are no longer viable?
359

George Mackay,

Dundee 16/07/2008 14:08:23
Annabel has been going to the gym to support the Tory candidate. Does that mean that Shrek is going to the gym to support John Mason? Who is going to the gym to support the Curran woman?
360

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

16/07/2008 14:09:56
406

Spook - Yer cheeky wee bawheid, but ye aye recht enough! Ah'll be a bit more wi' it frae the noo!

Ahm nae one, btw.
361

Miss H,

16/07/2008 14:10:16
398 says 'In Sillars' day, the SNP was a left-wing, high tax and spend party that sought to target the rich, hated Europe (even more than the Union with England) and, curoiusly, openly campaigned for Separation for Scotland.'

Wrong on so many levels!

Like Sedov here is someone who detests the SNP while knowing nothing about the SNP.

362

Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:10:58
409 and 410- they could always have a referendum to rejoin the Union if the first one was a 'Yes'!!
363

monkey man,

16/07/2008 14:11:30
I think what the separatists and other SNP extremists consistently forget is that the majority of Scots will never recognise Holyrood as nothing more than an talking shop and not a legitimate Executive, never mind a "Government".

Westminster is our seat of Parliament and always will be naturally so.
364

Miss H,

16/07/2008 14:11:43
411 No it doesn't.
365

Miss H,

16/07/2008 14:13:39
419 It is unfortunate for you that all the evidence suggests otherwise.
366

,

16/07/2008 14:15:07
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367

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:15:49
398. Great post.

The SNP in Sillars day was unelectable (hence Sillars winning Govan with a 33% swing), anti-European (hence the "independence in Europe" policy) and pro-independence, unlike today's SNP which is pro-independence. Nailed them!
368

,

16/07/2008 14:18:30
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369

,

16/07/2008 14:18:45
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370

,

16/07/2008 14:20:56
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371

Alan B,

16/07/2008 14:21:56
#Andra

Democracy is the will of the majority who bother to vote. Having a 70% threshold is completely undemocratic.

You whole approach is what is wrong with the unionist approach. Do not ask the people as they may vote in a way they do not like.

As for timing. The unionist parties could have referendum anytime they liked in the last 30yrs. They could then point to that as being the democratic basis for being part of the UK. The fact is they are scared they could lose.

You also talk about slipping above 50%. Couple of points. Firstly over the last decade opinion polls show a broadly even split between those wanting independence and not according to John Curtis the strathclyde so called election expert.

Secondly it is all about who cares ie 50% of those that vote rather than 50% of the electrate. Consider if you have a referendum with a 50-60% (or 60 something) turnout which is inline with scottish parliamentary elections and the devolution referendum.

A 50% turnout would mean anything over 25% of the electrate would win either way. And with 60% it is the side that get more than 30% of the electrate that holds sway.

Alot of it will come down to who votes and whether there is a large group who are not bothered either way and abstain.

372

,

16/07/2008 14:23:19
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373

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/07/2008 14:26:48
#375 AM2

"So, you have concerns about the Lisbon treaty. You seem to think that each country's sovereignty is diminished. But please explain how that's so damaging to the UK's interests, as the second largest economy in the EU, but would enhance those of an independent Scotland."

My mentioning the Lisbon treaty is not out of concern, it is simply a statement of fact.

The question is not about whether it has advantages for the UK, it is whether Scotland is better off being a member of the UK within the EU or whether Scotland is better off as an Independant country within the EU.

If we join the Euro, we will not be able to set monetary policy to suit Scotlands needs, but the current situation with the Bank of England setting our monetary policy is no better.

As an independant state within the EU we will have the ability to set Fiscal Policy. Something we can not do within the UK.

In terms of trade policy, The EU currently negotiates as a group. The UK has no more influence over this than any other state.

In terms of internal EU policy Scotland has had its interests subjegated to the larger interests of the UK. Since England is the Largest part of the UK whatever is in Englands interests becomes the UKs interests, no matter how badly that will effect Scotland.

Since most decisions are driven by concensus in the EU an independant Scotlands interests will have as much weight as the UKs.

We currently have no control of the Economic levers available to other member states. As an independant member we would.

I know you try very hard to come up with reasons why Scotland is better off in the UK, but they all tend to be very nebulous and based on wishful thinking and fantasy.

Scotlands interests will be better served when she has her own voice.

374

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16/07/2008 14:27:03
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375

Alan B,

16/07/2008 14:28:59
Would the unionist parties have to disband if scotland became independent as surely there unionist hardline attitute would make them irrelevent and their reason for staying in existence would be gone.

The tories in scotland were the unionist part of the conservative and unionist party. Could u really have a party whose main objective was unionism (hint in the name Union party) remaining.

Scotland could be alot better of politically if new progressive scottish parties were to be created on independence possibily by a split of left and right of the snp. This would mean that the corruption of the 2 main unionist parties would not be carried over to a new scotland.
376

,

16/07/2008 14:30:43
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377

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:30:49
432. Oh dear, Highland deleted for abusive posts again, he really must calm down.

I am a 97 year old war veteran who has lived in the east end all my life, and when I finish my current club 18-30 holiday I will do some more phone campaigning from Labour from my house in Inverness.
378

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 16/07/2008 14:32:08
A job for Hamish at the News of the Worlds must surely be on the cards.

Hamish, when you write such rubbish to you view it with pride or to you accept that your articles as pathetic propoganda for your political pals.

Hamish (Lord Haw Haw) MacDonell.
379

Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:32:13
430 Alan B-basically agree with you. there is no reason to suppose the spread of views of non voters would be any different from the sample that decide to vote. Also a simple majority-51% must decide it. I said semi tongue in cheek that a future referendum could decide to rejoin the Union-it could! If a unionist majority gained control in the Scottish parliament-well..! The wording of a Referendum IS important. Obviously each side might chose to "engineer" it to suit their agendas BUT you can not assume perfect knowledge of the issue with the whole electorate. Some voters genuinely might believe that the Holyrood Parliament is the same as full independence. Thats why I think a 3 question referendum might be better.
380

Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:34:25
A few of you guys have commented on the weather-dont tell me you can actually see the Sun!!
381

,

16/07/2008 14:34:41
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382

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:35:33
441. Sadly Highland was deleted for distasteful ranting.
383

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:35:35
'Union is best', didn't you like me pointing out that the SNP are anything to anyone, whatever it takes to be wanted?

How very childish of you to run to teacher again!

You really should try to grow up.
384

Miss H,

16/07/2008 14:36:18
428 You forget that the SNP are racist but also in cahoots with Muslim fundamentalists. That is one of my favourites!
385

Geoff,

sa 16/07/2008 14:37:24
431 Colonel Blimp-good afternoon squire. Could we omit the penalty shoot out? We er have had a few problems...
386

monkey man,

16/07/2008 14:37:41
# 423

Where is your evidence.? Holyrood can only achieve anything it does with English money, everyone knows that, so it has no credibility or legitimacy.
387

,

16/07/2008 14:38:02
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388

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:38:24
447. I'll have the link to the SNP's own GERS (which every nat is refusing to accept as accurate) on standby!
389

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:39:26
444. Miss H

quite right.

The SNP are racist and anti-immigrant, but also intent on throwing open Scotland's borders and encouraging immigration, and the SNP are racist and islamophobic but also determined to court the Muslim vote.

These things are clear.
390

Darien,

Panama 16/07/2008 14:41:40
Re-establishing nationhood is not something to give up on.
391

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 16/07/2008 14:42:33
Has anyone noticed how the unionist media are not referring to the most recent GERS analysis? Suddenly it's irrelevant, pfff.
392

,

16/07/2008 14:43:11
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393

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:43:33
450. Proof indeed that the SNP pander to the whim of everyone in their desperate chase for support.

Another example: Salmond wails that the Bank is trying to remove Scottish banknotes (obviously another nat lie but clearly pandering to the far-right) but then declares himself pro-Euro.....which will mean the end of Scottish banknotes!
394

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:44:06
I am psychic. I predict that Highlamd Mighty will soon bore us all to death by posting incoherent posts about a deficit which he has posted 29 times previously.
395

Union is Best,

16/07/2008 14:45:26
454. Spot on Highland, Scottish bank notes should not be accepted in London and should be given worse exchange rates and the SNP are ridiculous for saying otherwise. This is a Union dividend.
396

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:45:38
So you are now saying that Salmond's much trumpted GERS is "incoherent"? an astonishing revelation!

If even the SNP are now considered unrealiable, just what do you use as a source for all your wild claims??
397

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:46:28
456. And within minutes, 'union is best' is reduced to posting incoherent posts.
398

,

16/07/2008 14:47:40
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399

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:47:59
455. An excellent prediction. And based solely on #449. Amazing.

How do you do that?
400

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:50:07
459. Absolutely. Becuase the nats have never posted the same load of nonsense over and over again, desperately hoping that someone somewhere will actually believe them without checking.
401

monkey man,

16/07/2008 14:51:01
What should worry every REAL Scot is that Fatty Salmond, just like GW Bush in the US, is aligning himself with religious fundamentalists of every hue. Reducing the time limit for abortions, promoting sectarian apartheid in our education system, etc. He's attempting to drag us back to the Dark Ages.

Is this the "new modern Scotland " the SNP talks about.? It sounds more like Fatty Salmond will sink to new lows in his grasp for any kind of power.
402

Highland Mighty©,

16/07/2008 14:51:45