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Interest rates drop to 300-year low but plunging confidence is real key



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Published Date: 09 January 2009
SO, WHERE do we go from here? Yesterday, the Bank of England cut interest rates by half a point to 1.5 per cent – the lowest level in its 300-year history.
But it was coolly received by business and financial markets.

"Too timid," said the Engineering Employers Federation.

"Cutting rates has so far done little to get the economy back on track," said the accountant Grant Thornton.

"Would have liked to have seen a more bold approach," said Liz Cameron, from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce.

But few now believe the cost of money is the heart of the problem – and fewer still that this latest cut will make much difference in staving off a deepening recession.

After a breakneck series of rate cuts, government-backed rescues of banks and unprecedented levels of cash injections into wholesale money markets, policymakers have exhausted almost all conventional solutions.

We are now flying blind through this storm.

And the Bank is now down to the last shot in its locker. A further half-point cut to 1 per cent – widely expected next month – will leave Britain's central bank with its armoury virtually spent, and with no sign of any immediate easing of the downturn. Yet last year, the universal cry was that lower interest rates would turn the tide.

Economists urged rate cuts as the most effective means of countering the credit crisis and its impact on the wider economy. Yet rate cuts – and all the extraordinary measures taken by the government and the Treasury – have so far failed to slow down, still less halt, what is shaping up to be the worst recession since the Second World War.

Now there is talk of an altogether more desperate solution: "quantitative easing", or a resort to printing money to counter the feared onset of deflation.

Amid the deluge of reactions to yesterday's rate cut, that from the RBS economist Stuart Porteous was the shortest – and the most pointed.

"As rates head towards zero, policymakers will be forced to embark on ever more unorthodox measures to get the economy moving again," he declared. "Listen carefully and you can almost hear the printing presses being cranked up".

The next stage in the crisis is likely to involve detailed discussions between government and the banks on how to stimulate lending. There will also be intense talks with Bank of England officials on how fresh funds can be channelled into the banks in a way that will ensure they are given as loans to hard-pressed businesses.

The deepening scale and depth of the recession – and the stark failure of official action so far – was evident in the bleak statement accompanying the Bank's rate-cut decision yesterday.

"The world economy appears to be undergoing an unusually sharp and synchronised downturn," it said.

"Measures of business and consumer confidence have fallen markedly. World trade growth this year is likely to be the weakest for some considerable time…

"In the UK, business surveys suggest that the pace of contraction in activity increased during the fourth quarter of 2008 and that output is likely to continue to fall sharply during the first part of this year. Surveys of retailers and reports from the Bank's regional agents imply consumer spending has weakened. The outlook for business and residential investment has deteriorated".

Little wonder the latest rate cut carried little conviction – or the one to come, for that matter.

The Bank's statement also highlights the poor state of credit supply and the need for more action on this issue, referring to "the need for further measures to increase the flow of lending to the non-financial sector".

It does not say what "further measures" it has in mind. But close observers expect it is mainly extra capital for banks on more generous terms, extra liquidity support and more generous debt guarantees.

The key to this crisis is confidence. And that is unlikely to return until the unprecedented measures already undertaken have had a chance to work through the system. For example, by the spring, many mortgage borrowers should be feeling the benefits of lower interest rates on monthly repayments.

But it is the slump in business confidence that is especially worrying. The government has staked its reputation on a recovery setting in during the second half of this year. But the worse the news flow from businesses, here and abroad, the less likely this now looks.

The government desperately wants to see the banks strengthened and stepping up their lending to business. But there is an immediate and direct conflict here between official concern to see bank credit expanding again and an insistence that banks should operate on a more secure capital base.

Since the viability of the banking system depends on maintaining general confidence in its capital strength, the priority for government would seem to lie in restoring the banks' capital position through recapitalisation and higher retained profits.

It is easy to exhort the banks to lend more. However, demand for lending is declining sharply as confidence retreats. Where there is demand, an equally acute problem is that banks' lending judgments in this environment are most likely to be highly cautious.

For example, they may cut back on lending to otherwise soundly based companies that happen to operate in credit-hungry business areas or where lending appears particularly high risk. Refusing to extend credit could send these business into administration.

The case for government involvement is that it can make good systemic defects by devising means to keep credit flowing to those businesses that see sources of bank finance drying up.

Further talks between government ministers and the banks are likely to focus on an offer of guarantees on loans the banks make to companies. The banks would then have no reason to fear losses on such lending, and would be more inclined to grant credit to borrowers benefiting from the guarantee.

However, the problem with this is the banks might still be constrained from lending by capital considerations, unless such loans were regarded as government debt and zero-weighted for the purposes of calculating banks' capital requirements.

Economist Stephen Lewis says: "If the government has to accept liability for the loans, if any scheme is to be viable, it might as well run the fund providing the finance. Setting up such a fund might, indeed, have been a more effective use for the £12.4 billion the UK government is spending on the temporary VAT reduction."

That would hand the banking industry, lock, stock and barrel, to the government. And not everyone would see that as part of the solution.

Graphic: How interest rates have changed since 1694

Business backing for Brown plummets


PROFILE

WILLIAM Paterson, a Scottish trader and writer, founded the Bank of England to help a financially crippled government raise cash.

Born on a Dumfriesshire farm in 1658, Paterson lived in England, America and the Bahamas before coming up with the scheme in 1691. It finally came off in 1694.

The lenders were wealthy landowners and they were known as The Company of the Bank of England.

Paterson, however, resigned two years later after falling out with his directors. He moved back to Edinburgh and launched the doomed Darien venture.

After just one year in Panama, he returned broke and bereaved, having lost his wife and son.

Scotland had to accept the financial help of Westminster. This led to the Scottish Parliament passing the Act of Union in 1707. Paterson died in 1719.


Bang on the money or a fiscal fudge? The experts deliver their verdicts

Yes, it will work – eventually


DAVID TINSLEY, UK economist at Clydesdale and Yorkshire banks:

History tends to suggest that these things do work eventually, although the time- lag can be quite long. When sterling fell out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism in the early 1990s, it took a good couple of years before UK exports benefited from the fall in the pound. Likewise, the fall in sterling this year will eventually make UK goods cheaper overseas, and also overseas goods more expensive here. That will have an effect on the UK economy. It all depends on the US, and probably to an equal amount on the Eurozone. You can't take advantage of a fall in the pound unless you have markets to sell into. Trying to sell into the US, and increasingly Germany, is very hard. With interest rates, we are in slightly uncharted waters because of a breakdown in the transmission mechanism – these cuts have been partially passed on to householders. We may have to look at measures to boost lending. In the meantime, we may see UK GDP growth go negative and employment fall.

It all comes down to the banks

STEPHEN GIFFORD
, chief economist at Grant Thornton:

We are already moving past interest rate cuts to more innovative methods to increase liquidity and the money supply. The next step is this so-called "quantitative easing" – it's not really printing money, but it's increasing the money supply.

Most of the money in the UK economy is created by the banks. A single bank can't create money, but the whole banking system, through the way it lends to itself, creates money. But the system is collapsing because they're not lending to each other. There will be all sorts of ways they can do that. Holding interest rates for a year or two will put some sort of credibility back into the system. But it all goes back to this lending by the banks. If they don't lend to each other, we will continue in this malaise for a long time.

They have to rebuild their balance sheets, which have taken a hit over the past few years, from things across the Atlantic to too much lending. Now it's going in completely the other direction and they are hoarding cash.

New move won't work because cheap interest caused crisis

KEITH PILBEAM
, professor of international economics at City University, London:

There are big problems with the interest rate cut. They are now so low that an extra 0.5 points is not going to make a great deal of difference. It's beginning to affect savers. We are trying to bail-out debtors but at the same time we are punishing savers. The net effect is quite small. The other problem is that the economy is going to get much worse. Unemployment is going up. That is a real problem because that hits confidence, and people start saving even more. People say we should get the banks to lend more money, but the banks have already lent their money. These Bank of England interest rate cuts are only for the short end of the market.

There are dangers in what we are doing with this unprecedented borrowing and the interest rate cuts, because that is what is led us to this in the first place. It's a vicious circle if people save money, but that is part of the process to get debt levels down. Sometimes it's better to have short-term pain for long-term gain.

A bankrupt nation, storing up trouble for the future

JONATHAN DAVIS
, managing director of financial adviser Armstrong Davis:

A sterling crisis has been the by-product of the Bank of England's cuts to interest rates. We are experiencing corporate bankruptcies every second day and more home repossessions.

Because our country is so bankrupt and the government has been forced to borrow so much by selling gilts, there is a risk of inflation in the future. The investors who have bought UK government gilts will expect a return on their investment. This will again feed into inflation and we can expect a rise in interest rates. We can expect inflation to reach the double-digits of the 1970s by the middle of the next decade.

The bottom of the housing market is at least two years away.

The economy is falling and almost no amount of Gordon Brown printing money to save banks will help our failing economy.

To paraphrase Napoleon: "Britain is a nation of house-sellers and buyers." That is not the way to build a strong economy.

Companies' problems can't be fixed by lower interest rates

ALAN TOMLINSON
, of UK licensed insolvency practitioner Tomlinsons:

The interest rate cut will inject some confidence into the business community, but for companies that are already struggling it will be of no real help. Interest on loans is only paid quarterly, so it cannot have an immediate effect.

Many of the companies we are advising at present have more fundamental problems, such as sharp drops in turnover, large debts and ever weaker pricing, which can't be rectified by lower rates. For many companies out there, this will be too little, too late. Many of our clients have reported a 30 per cent drop in business over the past year.

These are often family businesses, which make up the backbone of our economy. Insolvency has lost a lot of its stigma, so we can expect more companies over the coming few years to come forward and ask for help.

This year is going to be fairly grim, but these events go in cycles. During the 1990s we thought the world was ending and yet new businesses emerged. The same will happen again.

Face the fear and do it anyway

GEORGE KEREVAN
, associate editor of The Scotsman:

The economy is like a boat. Occasionally it gets knocked over by a big wave called a financial crisis, when banks lend too much in a fit of optimism only to discover borrowers can't pay back.

Fortunately, the boat usually rights itself after 18 months, as consumers clear their debts and banks recapitalise. This happens regardless of what governments do.

But what if consumers become so fearful they won't start spending again (as happened in Japan in the 1990s)? There are two options: export more or tax people who save. And if banks won't start lending again the government has the option of nationalising them and doling out cash itself.

However, at the root of all this is a little thing called "confidence". If the usual economic levers (interest rate cuts) are not working, it is because confidence has expired.

The ultimate solution is some intangible psychological boost such as US president Franklin Roosevelt's famous inaugural line in 1933: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

Over to you, President Obama.

The full article contains 2412 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 January 2009 12:22 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Interest rates
 
1

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/01/2009 00:34:23
I'm still paying more than 6% for my HBOS mortgage. My savings accounts are linked to BoE interest rates and I owe sweet FA.

So bah effing humbug to Broon and all who sail with him.
2

Forward not Back,

09/01/2009 00:57:25
Lowering interest rates will not work while the banking system is screwed. I note that they are talking about setting up a 'bad bank' to take on the toxic assets but the problem is that a lot more corporate and personal debts have become 'sub-prime' than before because of the collapse in house prices and the tumbling off a cliff in the corporate world.

It will end up with the printing presses running and inflation rocketing in a couple of years. Kiss goodbye to foreign holidays then as the pound completely collapses.
3

,

09/01/2009 01:11:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Cynicus in Exile,

09/01/2009 01:55:39
"Interest rates drop to 300-year low"

At last -the Union Dividend?
5

SkeptikScot,

09/01/2009 01:58:26
I don't think a half a point rate cut is going to make much difference ...

What's left? Printing money like Argentina did?

Nisan job losses, Dell moving much of its business out of Ireland (Dell represents 5% of Ireland's GDP!). It's all getting a bit scary for my liking.

6

livilion,

livingston 09/01/2009 02:06:28
Stay cool folks, Don't panic!
Gordon Brown has already used his expert knowledge of 1920s Labour history to save the world, now Alistair Darling's insight of the Law will see us ok through this global credit crunch.

First you flog off anything that will raise a few bob; gold, post offices, students debts, pensions etc, to help your balance of payments, pawn off your schools and hospitals on the never-never so they stay off the books, then when all else fails then just print the money to pay for it when the wehole thing goes titsup. What could go wrong?

Anyway, how was anyone to know that putting off everything onto credit cards was going to drop us all into the mire?

Like Arthur of the Britons, Gordon is just awaiting our call to draw the sword from the stone, and ride to the nation's rescue once again...
7

Jon Bon Jovi,

Dublin 09/01/2009 02:27:24

#5

is that percentage correct for Dell... if so thats severe!!!
8

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 09/01/2009 02:56:12
The only way to get the economy moving is to limit interest rates on credit cards to 6%. Everyone will then feel confident enough to start using them again and the economy surges. More debt good! Two legs bad! It's the Labour way.
9

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 03:22:06
It started with an inordinate love of money and it continues with a never ending stupidity about it. If we want money as a useful means of exchange, the £, lsd, system UK is not the way to do it.
10

Mcsnagpile,

09/01/2009 04:43:54
Reading this editorial is frightening. It demonstrates that nobody really understands or wants to understand the situation.

The problem is quite simple, there is too much debt especially hidden debt in the system. Until this debt is dissipated or properly packaged we will be in crisis. Reducing the cost of debt is certainly not a cure.
11

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 05:18:50
If there wasn't debt in the system it wouldn't work at all. It doesn't cost a bank very much to issue me with £100,000 credit to buy a house which it now owns. If I default on repayments, and the value of the property is only £20,000 due to the slump, it's still made a tidy profit which it can pay to the directors and issue the usual glossy bumph to the shareholders.

There are alot more sophisticated ways of confusing the public and "making money".

Mr Edison pointed out that a government can just as easily issue a dollar as a dollar bond. If this dollar was spent into circulation as for useful work, we'd all be better off.

At the momemt, private banks have the monopoly on money; I could pay you for what you feel you've honestly earned, but only if I'd borrowed this credit (or cash) from a bank in the first place.
12

Glasgow Expat,

Proud Short Seller 09/01/2009 05:33:10
Agree with 11. The only way to get rid of excess, non-productive debt is to inflate it away (which is what Broon and the Fed are trying to do) or pay it back. Yes, PAY IT BACK. This is an old, traditional concept and may seem a little strange to younger readers. In the olden days people used to do something that was known as "living within their means". People saved up to buy the flat screen telly and invested for the future. Maybe, when all this is done and the Dow is around 4,000, the next generation will have re-learnt these principles.
13

ddmc,

09/01/2009 05:50:53
Wait until derivatives explode, will they bail out the banks again. As long as the greedy (W)bankers know that the Govt will keep bailing them out over & over again they will not change, they should have let Northern Rock go down to send the correct message to the financiers, you donald ducked it so pay the consequences.

It's time the institutional investors threw their weight around & demand all the so called executives pay back all the bonus money & salaries, as long as it looked good on paper they let them get away with monsterous pay packets, now it's not so good these people still expect to be rewarded.
14

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 06:18:34
Governments of the UK don't issue credit or bail out anyone. They follow instructions and pose on television for the international banking set.

They're allowed to collect taxes and revenues like North Sea oil to flatter themselves, keep themselves in a job, while the bankers run the show.
15

Ubi,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 07:29:31
Having soaked borrowers the government now seeks to do the same to savers. Doubtless, it would have been well advised that a further reduction in interest rates would have little effect on lending.

By stealth, the government hopes to force the prudent to become imprudent by making deposits so unattractive that they are withdrawn and converted into riskier forms of investment. In the process propping up an economy brought to its knees by the government and its policies.

The government does not appear to have legislated yet to outlaw guaranteed treasury bonds, which may offer decent returns with the risks quantified at the outset.
16

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 09/01/2009 07:39:34
Amusingly, it was Scotsman John Law that invented "credit" that underpins our economic dynamics. And it is a Scotsman (GB) that is trying to get us out of the "credit crisis".

Theres aye a Scotsman at the root of all problems and solutions, eh?

Having said that, we're not getting away with this one this time. Just have to tighten belts and ride it out.
17

John Cameron,

St Andrews 09/01/2009 07:40:30
The real fear is the person in charge. When I was at university with Gordon Brown we would not have put him in charge of the kitty for an evening's pub crawl. The fact that he has made a complete horlicks of the UK economy was only to be expected. The fact that he is still in charge is truly terrifying.
18

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 09/01/2009 08:01:10
19

What's the rise? Is it a micro orr macro rise? And please, keep us informed at C.O.P. what the rates are once they have done another run on the pound.
19

TWC,

09/01/2009 08:22:46
19 sm753
Smee the rise is because this was expected, however when PPP / PFI is added to the balance sheet there will be another fall; also the job loss figures are beginning to mount so we are not out of the woods yet.

The real problem is that the rate cut is not going to free up spending. Savers who would have spent money are now franticly looking to move out of the Banks & BS (Me amongst them) and the those who are saving on Mortgage payments are rightly paying off debt or using Off set accounts.
This is not the answer. He'd be better buying a bridge with the money(ha ha).
20

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 09/01/2009 08:27:55
0.41% rise against the Euro and 0.23% rise against the dollar.

However, and you'll like this, a 0.15% FALL against the Norwegian Kroner and 0.57% fall against the Israeli Shekel for some reason.
21

,

09/01/2009 08:44:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 08:47:50
#17 Donie Murdo

You're absolutely right. Broon and his glove puppet Darling keep hinting things'll be better in 2010. B*l*ocks. The only way to get over this is tighten our personal belts and lose the debt, whether that be personal or national. If that means older school buildings, so be it. If that means an older car or no car, so be it. Broon hopes that by spending on tick (which, er, got us in the excrement in the first place) things will improve. He wants the banks to lend more money to people who weren't in a position to pay off their debt in the first place. The man is a total buffoon. Even I, who knows next to nothing about economics, can see that the recovery from this will be very long and very hard for a lot of people. The economy, whilst based on debt and services, should not be allowed to expand to the extent it did. What is this obsession with growth anyway?
23

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/01/2009 09:17:20
We're in ths mess becasue we abandoned monetarism (balanced budgets at domestic AND national levels).

We will only emerge safely, never to return, once Keynesism (huge credit generation, which is how we got into this mess in the first place, and which has NEVER worked), is abandoned.

Trust me: I was an economist!
24

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 09:22:10
-- What is this obsession with growth anyway?

When more goods are manufactured and transacted, more money would have to be circulating.

The UK system doesn't work this way. Let's just send more troops into Afghanistan and be proud of being british.
25

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 09:29:32
#28 Yok Finney

The trouble for an independent Scotland is we would probably be in even more trouble than the UK is as a whole. We have a higher percentage of the workforce in the service sector, the public sector and the parasitic-unemployable-living-off-the-taxpayer-sector. As you say, until the government (UK or SNP) turns the ship round and focuses all its attention on the revitalisation of a manufacturing sector, we're snookered for the foreseeable, in or out of the UK.
26

JayJay,

Right here 09/01/2009 09:33:07
On a tv show the other night, three families were shown trudging down a path towards repossession. In each case, there was a frankly bizarre demonstration of how the economy has "worked" over the past few years. Get a house, read the papers, find out the house is worth 25% more than you paid for it, remortgage, buy lots of unnecessary stuff and keep repeating until you have a massive and unaffordable debt. The concept that the debt had to be repaid, and came with an ever increasing monthly cost, just did not seem to occur to these people. One man, who by his own admission could barely read or write, had a six figure mortgage and an uncertain annual income. How some daft bank thought him worthy of a hefty mortgage, I will never know.
there are a million reasons why the world is utterly goosed at the minute. But at the core, there is this stupid notion that you can use notional equity to fund a lifestyle you could not afford. When this collided with a banking world where simple concepts like credit checks flew out the window in a blizzard of lending targets and performance incentives, it did not take a genius to figure out what might happen.
For brown to base his recovery plan on more of the same is pure comedy gold!
27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 09:42:04
#30 JayJay

Yes. A good few years ago I watched a TV documentary on the provision of self-assessment mortgages to people who could only be described as 'sub-prime'. The mortgage brokers and the banks knew the applicants were lying on their applications for mortgages but s long as the houses on the up and up, they didn't care. Broon and his bunch of toerags MUST have known that his entire economic 'miracle' of the 1997-2007 was based on institutionalised fraud. It was political and personal power based on a crime so huge most folk couldn't comprehend it was happening. Broon has ruined the economy of this country for the sake of his own and Labour's gain. Trust him to turn things round? He should be in prison for crimes against the nation.
28

Rosscobhoy,

09/01/2009 09:44:28
Well, i'm not going to complain. The result of all thats happened is that i was able to refinance the small debts i had at a much more favourable rate and will pay it off a few years earlier at no extra monthly cost. I'm happy with that.
29

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/01/2009 09:45:18
I can never understand why so many people believe in the myth that "economies must grow", where do people get the idea that this is some kind of fundamental law of nature, it isn't it is just a projection from several centuries of typical growth.

The truth is that there are fundamental reasons why this century the world economy must contract. OK, that does not mean that we won't "come out of this recession" into a period of growth, but sooner or later the economy will enter long term recession and rather than going more and more into debt to try and coerce economic growth that isn't there, what the government should be doing is being prudent with our money and not "trying to buck the market".

If the economy is going to turn around, it will do so in its own time and not to the timetable of politicians looking to get re-elected and basically all our (sorry some foreign sheik's) money they are throwing at the economy trying desparately to coax it out of its shell is a WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY!
30

Rosscobhoy,

09/01/2009 09:52:21
Would also like to add that the bottom half of post 30 is spot on. I worked for a major bank for several years selling personal finance and felt guilty using the sales techniques they expected us to use. They didn't care about what the client could afford to pay back, they'd just make sure we'd offer them as much as they were likely to be accepted for which was usually far more than was needed.
31

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 09/01/2009 09:58:06
27

Once you define what "Brittish" is in the context of your comment, then we may take you seriously. Till then, bye.
32

JayJay,

Right here 09/01/2009 10:01:38
Draco
Not sure if I would call it a "crime", but more a demonstration of the sheer cynicism of those in Government. There are many things they know, but do little about. They know the cost of public sector pensions, in itself, could bankrupt the nation, yet do we hear any pronouncements on how they will deal with that debt mountain? They know PFI is perhaps the stupidest scheme yet devised to finance public projects, but hey ho if it keeps the debt mountain off balance sheet that in itself is a virtue. They know that most people are at best politically neutral or indifferent, so if you keep them feeling all safe and secure, and continually tell them that borrowing outwith your means is perfectly sensible (and after all government does that all the time anyway) then its flat screen tellies and vote labour all round.
These guys, like the massively remunerated buffoons in Bank boardrooms, know not much more than you or I about running a business or an economy. they turn up, hope for the best, and say whatever it takes to keep the truth far removed from voters or shareholders.
In a speech yesterday, Brown used the term "global problems" three times in one sentence. Global my rear end. Laissez faire regulation, unrestrained greed, borrowing without responsibility. They knew all about it, but the sheep kept voting them in. My only regret is that I wasn't filling my boots along with everyone else. After all, it was nobodies fault!
33

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 09/01/2009 10:01:53
£1 gets 1.1075 Euro at current exchange rate with a fall of 0.33% in the last hour and falling. It has also fallen 0.56% against the dollar and still falling.

It's falling because of the lack of confidence in Broons handling of the economy and it's understandable.
34

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 10:17:23
#36 JayJay

Last time I heard, deliberately falsifying a document (e.g. a mortgage application) for monetary gain (e.g. a mortgage) was a crime. If the person authorising the application knew the application was fraudulent but gave it the OK, either because it was bank policy or for personal gain (i.e. commission) he or she is as guilty of the crime. The bank bosses knew and did nothing. They're as guilty for basing a large proportion of their banks' business and profits on criminal conduct. If Broon and Co. didn't know this was going on they must be damn stupid. Mind you, one of the prime criminals with expertise in the very fraudulent behaviour was one Peter Mandelson....
35

11+failed,

the pans 09/01/2009 10:24:33
Gordon has destroyed the income from savings, the next step "quantitative easing"(inflation)is designed to destroy savings capital. With thousands forced onto social security Gordon hopes they will vote Labour to maintain their paymaster(the government).
36

TWC,

09/01/2009 10:26:20
23 sm753,
When did I call for Independence??
37

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/01/2009 10:32:58
18 - since varsity what qualifications did Broon get to be in charge of the UK economy ?
38

C.U. Jimmy,

Half-Penny Lane 09/01/2009 10:33:39
One thing's for sure. Things are going to get a lot worse, when a graveyard of skeletons falls out of Gordon Brown's fiscal cupboards, before they get better.
39

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/01/2009 10:34:29
38 it's Lord Mandelson, if you don't mind ! : )
40

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 10:35:29
#39 11+failed

I believe Broon is a history graduate. He was obviously too busy trying to become Rector to listen during the 'Weimar Germany' part of the curriculum. I'm off to buy myself a new wheelbarrow to replace my wallet...
41

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/01/2009 10:43:16
44 - Funny I've been having the same Weimar thoughts....
42

TWC,

09/01/2009 10:46:47
44 Draco Was a Wimp
you're scaring the heck out of me, today's situation isn't that different from 'Weimar Germany' right down to the Mantra being supported by the press.
To spend out of this we need to finance big Infrastructure projects not cut interest or VAT.
43

Draco Was a Wimp,

09/01/2009 10:47:07
#45 Pilrig

Stand by for Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Broon...... Keep an eye on the motorway building programme.
44

Draco Was a Wimp,

09/01/2009 10:49:56
#46 TWC

Sadly, the majority seem to see Broon as the national 'saviour', not the cause. It really does almost make me weep tears of frustation at the stupidity/gullibility our fellow citizens.
45

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/01/2009 11:00:46
Poachers can become good gamekeepers of course, but they have first to change their ways: putting Brown in charge of the recovery is as sensible as handing Iraq back to Saddam after the war.
46

Finnzz,

09/01/2009 11:05:32
The entire mess has been caused by the banks allowing their customers to spend 10 years worth of earnings in one year on goods they either didn't need or want.
Its now going to take another 10 years to enable these borrowers to return to their previous fiscal status where they can actually afford to service their debts.

The most incredible thing is though, this government insist that the only out of the recession is to keep spending in the same fashion, which is what got us in this mess to start with.

With Brown and Darling only interested in their chances of winning another election, the hard choices that need to be made to stop total meltdown of the economy will never be taken.

I can see a return of rationing and exchange rate controls coming.
47

JayJay,

Right here 09/01/2009 11:18:45
Draco@ 38
Don't disagree. Don't forget the FSA (annual running cost of £350m) which is now talking tough and looking to hire yet more people to do what I do not know. It's not even as if the mad financing scams were cleverly designed scams. Northern Rock actually advertised the 125%, 7-times salary product yet the FSA persisted with the "nothing to see here" form of policing.
Yet the hapless financial advisor, or poorly paid bank manager being pressed for sales are but mere novices when you see what was going on in major financial institutions. Derivatives, securitisation, credit default swaps - massive fee earning pyramid scams that were always doomed to unravel the minute the wholesale market seized.
Brown, as Head of the treasury, made much of "prudence" and he must have been on some powerful herbal medicine if he thought the mighty city of London was a hotbed of probity and risk aversion. Like you, I am infuriated by the continued willingness of people to see this as the fault of Hank from Idaho failing to keep up payments on his farm. These muppets were all at it, and the Government did nothing to stop the merry-go-round.
48

Liz,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 11:25:36
#48
I have barely contained rage whenever Brown comes out with increasing ludicrous statements about how this is all the fault of 'anyone else but us'.

The brainwashing of the British public into being convinced that all this mess has nothing to do with the years of 'prudence' Mr Brown subjected us to is incredible. Most Labour ministers recently are quite simply lying to us about what is going on, then using playground insults to anyone who dares question their economic management.

The warnings were there and despite the warnings Brown did nothing about it. Much of the current mess could have been avoided if he had just done something more constructive than brag about what a great job he thought he was doing. For those who could see behind the spin all this was inevitable.
49

Toast,

09/01/2009 11:30:16
The banks are totally screwed paying the government 12% on the bailout billions and trying to rebuild their reserves [no choice there either] there is no money left to lend,Brown wasted 312.5 billion on his VAT scam which actually cost businesses money changing their stationary and accounting software,I've never been as busy [partly due to competitors having their overdraft rates increased and deciding to retire or go into recievership] but I have no intention of taking on staff or a larger workshop,if anything I will not be replacing staff due to retire,Brown has so messed up this country that I see no point and very little future mortgaging the future to cover-up the great "buffoons" fiscal incompetence.
50

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 11:32:33
#51 JayJay

1997 - 2007 will go down in history as a period to equal the Dutch Tulip Bubble, the South Sea Bubble, the Dot Com Bubble. You're right, Broon's economic 'miracle' was nothing but a massive pyramid scheme. Fortunately I held to the mantra I was brought up with, if you can't afford, you don't get. It's a pity Broon didn't keep to his much vaunted Presbyterian values. He is one of the greatest hypocrites in our country's history.
51

,

09/01/2009 11:38:49
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52

TWC,

09/01/2009 11:50:05
55 Bottoms Up,

At least your on £60K

Hey wait a minute are you an MSP/MP?
53

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 11:50:29
#55 Bottoms Up

That's a sore one. It would be easy to say why did you do it, but I suppose everyone wants to own their own home. I got bitten by negative equity way back in the late 80s/early 90s. I never again have allowed myself to get in a position where I was way overstretched and could see it was all bound to go the same way again. Everyone just needs to get out of the mindset that their house MUST keep going up in value and basing our personal finances on the assumption that it always will or should. As a nation, we just need to bite the bullet and accept we're going to get poorer. And always remember who played such a great part in getting us here. GET RID OF BROON ASAP, for all our sakes.
54

Fairfax,

09/01/2009 11:57:30
TWC (56): "55 Bottoms Up,

At least your on £60K"

Bottoms Up's salary would be in the low £50K range. Whilst I sympathize with his position, the decision to borrow £250K was ultimately his decision, not the bank's. In other words, we get the banks we deserve.
55

les vegas,

Glasgow. 09/01/2009 11:59:33
If "Quantative Easing" becomes a reality, then all the savers would be as well taking all their cash, burning it, and keep themselves warm for a few seconds. As that is all their money will be worth. Beware...
56

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 12:11:32
"Yet last year, the universal cry was that lower interest rates would turn the tide."

Indeed.

Bill Jamieson, The Scotsman, 30th September 2008:

"Everything critically depends on early, sustained action by central banks to pump in massive amounts of liquidity and to cut interest rates – quickly and decisively."

http://news.scotsman.com/billjamieson/Bill-Jamieson-39In-over-35.4540058.jp

Bill Jamieson, The Scotsman, 2nd December 2008:

"Plunging economy makes the case for halving rates."

http://www.scotsman.com/billjamieson/Bill-Jamieson-Plunging-economy-makes.4750383.jp


But it's probably unfair to pick on Mr. Jamieson. As he says, calls for lower interest rates were universal: with very few exceptions, politicians, financial experts, and journalists were all calling for dramatic interest rate cuts. Perhaps the lesson to be learned is that no one really has any idea what's going on. What's starting to worry me is that increasingly panicky measures to save the situation are going to end up causing even more serious problems.
57

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 13:21:48
-- The trouble for an independent Scotland is we would probably be in even more trouble than the UK is as a whole.

That has to be considered. Controlling the UK from London causes assymetric shock effects (or how would you phrase it?). Financial follies of the City get soaked up in the general melee whereas buying a house in the north-western extremities becomes unfeasible for working people. I noticed a derelict ruin near Gairloch going for £80,000 with fabulous views across the bay to the Cullins, though perhaps the price has come down.

Orkney looks more reasonable economically, maybe because they're better organised (a talent they have).
58

Observer,,

Glasgow 09/01/2009 13:24:09
Spookily I find myself in complete agreement with Draco again.

This cut is about trying to sustain high house prices, that has a large part to play in how we got into this mess in the first place.

A sane governmen would let them drop. Houses are for living in, not gathering vast amounts of unearned wealth, it doesn't work like that, it never could.

This government however are insane, and the sooner we get shot of them the better, before we all have to take wheelbarrows with us on our shopping trips, not to carry the (meagre) messages home, but to carry the money to pay for them.
59

,

09/01/2009 13:56:59
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60

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 13:58:28
Houses could be sold for the cost of building them + a reasonable profit for those involved. Boats are built this way. It's the question of land ownership and no democratic say about these ancient deeds and bits of paper.
61

,

09/01/2009 14:04:02
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62

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 09/01/2009 14:41:05
The banks should not have been bailed out. If we are to believe in competition then let them fail and someone better will take over. Why prop up bubbles? That only prolongs the recession. Rather than borrowing it would be better, if you have to have a stimulus, for people to have that bail-out money in their hands, no? After all it is their money and they'll have to pay for it. Instead it's bailing out Broon's greedy mates in banking and finance.

The answer about what to do about this recession is easy - nothing. The economy was based on debt and so was illusory. You can't go back to that so why is Brown trying to? Why are economists urging this?

There needs to be a recession and the bubbles need ironing out. Let it happen..

Instead, by throwing money at the problem you are going to cause hyper-inflation. Great, a hyper-inflationary depression is the answer to avoiding a recession.

Brown has to go and we should listen to economists and forecasters who are genuinely independent. I can't believe the garbage I read from politicians, economists and bankers about what needs to be done. They failed us and they should not be trusted in respect of fixing the problem. First though - Brown needs to go!
63

W Smith,

Middle East 09/01/2009 16:03:58
Scots who hate Mrs Thatcher take note:

My one and only mortgage was signed when Mrs Thatcher was still PM (peace be upon her!) in 1990.

The loan was for .... wait for it ....£26,000 which represented approx 3 times my salary which was £8,000 pa.

My bank manager considered me a 'risk' and insisted that, if I wanted a 100% loan, one of my close relatives would have to co-sign the mortgage agreement as guarantor for the loan in case I defaulted.

Who would have believed it way back then in 1990 that a Labour government would soon introduce working class Scots to a version of capitalism that was unheard of under Thatcher?

Take a bow Gordon, for introducing a kind of toxic, reckless, undisciplined, unregulated capitalism thats more Nick Leeson than Adam Smith.
64

Navvy,

09/01/2009 16:09:26
And not a care to those prudent retirees who rely on interest for income to live

New "Labour" out!
65

TWC,

09/01/2009 16:16:53
70 W Smith,
Mine was the 1981 for £24,000 the day I signed interest rate went to 15%, this was after the previous disasterous Labour Government.( We were told it was thatcher but now I know different)
It could happen again in 2011 if Brown keeps going.

It was really scary.
66

Jimmy Le Pie,

09/01/2009 16:19:35
Comrade Broon could hold "Britishness Day" on the day the printing presses in Mumbai, start churning out new pound notes.

It used to be called 'devaluation' in Harold Wilson/James Callaghan's day.

Comrade Darling calls it "Quantitative Easing"

Robert Mugabe uses this style of economics.
The Weimar Republic used this style of economics.
Most South American countries have used this style of economics.

Will New Labour Sleaze and Corruption drop newly printed notes by plane or will they just pay them into their own bank accounts and let the money filter down as the party worthies go on spending splurges???

No more boom and bust?????????????????????
67

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 09/01/2009 17:10:20
"Too timid," said the Engineering Employers Federation.

That's a belter. Perhaps the cut should have been 3%, which would make it totally worthwhile for those with debt. The system then pays the borrower. Result - no debt, provided no more is offered. Simple, ain't it?

Meanwhile, the poor saver seems to have been overlooked. How careless.
68

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 09/01/2009 17:22:56
#64 Observer

That's twice in the space of about a week. People will talk. Never mind, there's bound to be something about which we can resume our traditional stances. It's too easy to agree on the uselessness / unadulterated foulness of G. Broon.
69

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 17:42:20
-- The banks should not have been bailed out.

It was case of credits issued from another bank. Which is profitable for some.

If the high street banks went bust, how would local business continue? Or what about personal savings?
70

Ewan Oosami,

09/01/2009 19:48:30
#63 there's one going (or rather not going) for £165k near Aultbea
71

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/01/2009 20:14:40
January sales from the desperate.

Traditionally people spend in December and save in January and February. Is someone trying to buck a trend?

It is beyond my belief that Broon is still in power.

As for the 50 pence off the shopping bill - HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The man, in my humble opinion, is a first class twot.
72

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 09/01/2009 21:39:43
-- There's one going (or rather not going) for £165k near Aultbea.

Being an ancient mariner, fisherman and boater, I don't have enough interest in house prices. Though I think a decent family house could be built for ~ 50K. IF YOU COULD GET LAND TO BUILD IT ON. I think incomers and white settlers are a red herring. A pointless contention.

What would it cost for a boat? Hardly less than £ million though the design costs are ~ 1-3 %. One in five sensible ideas actually get built, says my naval architect. Though keeping a few wild card customers is sometimes worth having.

I am not the Sheik of Bahrain, but if I signed the email, perhaps I am. And would direct money into it.
73

,

09/01/2009 22:13:16
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74

Tris,

09/01/2009 23:04:13
#73

What's happened to Brown Britishness Day? When are we going to have it? I thought it was going to be on August Bank Holiday, when the English were on a day off, and the rest of us were working? But it never happened and now the year is over and.... still no Britishness Day.

Does that mean we're not British any more? or did I miss it?
75

livilion,

livingston 10/01/2009 01:26:58
26 Rulesbutnotrulers,

We're in this mess because Margaret Thatcher disguised her hatchet job on the Trades Unions by using her pools winnings from North Sea oil money to cover up the effect of destroying our manufacturing capability in this country.

Wholesale giveaways of UK assets to any Thom, Dyke or Henri and putting the cash into new Bankers' Paradise London and Westminster City bookmakers, spread betting and skimminmg off the cream for themselves and putting a few bob into party funds to keep everyone sweet. Ask Sid.

The rest can join in by buying mortgages and running up credit card bills on the equity. Bricks and mortar, can't lose can you?
Money for nothing and your chicks for free...

When I say Margaret Thatcher, I naturally include Honest Tony and our 'Saviour of the World' who instead of coming up with an alternative, simply tried to out-Maggie the Tories at their own game to win votes from middle England.

Seems to me a bit like a compulsive gambler winning the Lotto and then blowing the lot on scratch cards.
76

livilion,

livingston 10/01/2009 01:43:40
70 W Smith,Middle East

My parents bought their three bedroom end terrace Henry Boot council house in East Kilbride for £4,000 under the Harold Wilson government's right to buy scheme.

The difference then was that instead of the council having to give away the property for 40% of it's market value to turn you into capitalists, they had the option of using their rent to buy or to go to the bank and pay the going rate, which they did.

They moved there in 1965 and paid off their 25 year mortgage in 2000.
77

,

10/01/2009 18:51:43
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