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Iraq violence puts pull-out of 1,500 UK troops in doubt

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Published Date: 29 March 2008
PLANS for a spring withdrawal of around 1,500 British troops from Iraq are in jeopardy amid violent clashes in Basra.
At least 120 people are feared dead, with 450 wounded, after four days of fighting between Iraqi government forces and Shia militants, which also saw US planes bomb the city in a bid to calm the uprising.

Defence sources have stressed that a plan by Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, to cut numbers from around 4,000 to 2,500 will only go ahead if supported by army generals in Iraq.

An update on how many troops will replace those deployed in December on a six-month tour of duty is expected in the next week.

Last night, a source said: "We're no longer talking about reducing to 2,500 at this time."

An increase in combat troops – rather than medics and training specialists – would indicate a readiness to re-engage with insurgents.

The news came as senior MPs said there was a need to retain a "critical mass" of UK forces outside Basra for their own protection and to enable them to continue to provide back-up to the fledgling Iraqi forces.

UK troop numbers have fallen dramatically from the 46,000 who took part in the 2003 invasion. Those remaining are on "overwatch" duties, having decided last September to withdraw from front-line combat to their base near Basra airport.

The current number of UK armed forces in Iraq was put at 3,800 in a parliamentary written answer released yesterday, having stood at 7,100 last year.

But, when asked to set out the plan for reducing forces further over the next year, Bob Ainsworth, the Armed Forces minister, said:

"We are unable to provide a month-by-month projection for the next 12 months.

"Our plans will be guided by the advice of our military commanders and are subject to conditions on the ground."

Sir Menzies Campbell, the former Lib Dem leader and a fierce opponent of the war, said: "There is a real doubt as to whether even the existing number of troops could be militarily effective. In all these operations, there is a critical mass and 4,100 seems to me to be below it."

David Hamilton, a Labour MP on the Commons defence committee, said: "You have got a situation where a critical-mass factor comes into operation. I don't think they would be able to maintain what they do with less people there. I don't think a reduction is a feasible option."

He added a longer-term withdrawal was desirable as Britain was unable to continue fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan.




The full article contains 453 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 March 2008 9:32 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Iraq , War in Iraq
 
1

subrosa,

29/03/2008 00:27:20
Bring our troops home. It was a promise. If you don't honour this promise then our soldiers will leave by their hundreds instead of groups of ten. They've had enough of this UK government, far too much in fact.
2

Senga Jean,

Scotland 29/03/2008 00:32:48
Why oh Why is Scotland stuck with supporting Brown who funded the war rather than speaking out in opposition to an unwinnable position. A second year law student at any Scottish University could have told you how to manage an invaded country and that for sure was not to destroy the police and military structure top down. The SNP were unpardonably correct. The folly was all Brown Bush and Blair.
3

indune1,

Canada 29/03/2008 00:58:13
1 Spot on. Leave it to the fanatics to fight over.

Bring our lads home - now!
4

indune1,

Canada 29/03/2008 00:59:05

2 - Not all Scottish universities have law schools. :)
5

mrd,

fairbanks 29/03/2008 02:38:11
Have read the above, it is better to withdraw troops from a non-tenable position, then to leave them there in a non-defenseable position. 4,000 troops are a non-active force, they can not protect themselves, nor anyonelse. If you have decided to leave, then leave, run for the exits. Scots historically don't run, but this is now, not then. Is the war right, is it wrong, it dosen't matter, it, is a war. In a war you either win or loose, that's all. The worst thing you can do to your troops is to leave them in a rear guard- action. No hope of winning, just staying the course for various reasons that don't really matter. Just to die for no reason; beyond their own reasons, which are their's own and you will never understand them. A sad case of affairs, you are either in or out, but then I don't think you are, just wishie washy, like most europeans. Pull your troops out, go for it. The heavy lifting will be picked up by others that believe the cause is right. If victory is the result, you may console yourselves that you had a part, at one time , for a small length, for a small amount of time. Ah but then, you will be able to write books as to the heroics of your troops, that you don't support, and you think are basically stupid. After all any intelligent man would find a job that didn't involve military service. Yes lets kick up a dust devil, calling for the removal of the troops, before they can do their job. Lets loose the war at home and then blame the troops later. It will make us feel so superior, to have prethought the outcome. Ah, but then, as you behave according to shri law, you can think on what you cost your children. MRD
6

indune1,

Canada 29/03/2008 03:18:10

MRD - hard to follow your train of thought.

We Canadians, along with our Brit cousins, are doing the heavy lifting in Afghanistan. We won't cut and run - nor will you, hopefully.

However, Iraq is another case - and a basket case.

Basra is not worth one more Scottisn, English, Welsh or Northern Irish soldier's life.

Iraq is not worth another soldier's life - regardless of his or her nationality.

Our soldiers - your soldiers - have been both in Iraq and Afghanistan for 5 yrs - that is the same length of time that it took win the Second World War.

Our troops - your troops - are not stupid.

Soldiering is an honourable profession.

Please do not assume that those of us who feel it is time to withdraw from Iraq - five years on - think that our soldiers have failed.

It is our politicians who have failed and if they were in the military, they would be on a general court-martial charge for perjury, conduct unbecoming, treason and dereliction of duty.

All found guily would be shot at dawn with a ball of their frozen sh**e. Fair enough?


7

larry b,

toronto 29/03/2008 03:32:04
now look here, the Arab world is full of peace loving, life respecting, religiously tolerant , democratic peoples.All this trouble is obviously part of the Israeli agenda.They put their towns quite squarely in the path of the Palestinian peace missiles, and are quite clearly the fly in the ointment spoiling the Arab Utopia we would see if the Israelis did not orchestrate the mayhem.
Come on Mcjihadis you hate Israel because of their inherent disbelief in democracy, freedom, socialism etc etc connect the dots for the rest of us and show how Israeli imperialism is the root of all trouble on planet earth.
8

indune1,

29/03/2008 03:52:43

Larry - I know our beloved Leafs are out but please follow the thread.
9

Tailspin,

Land of the Free 29/03/2008 06:36:33
Sorry lads, but your Basra troops are not able to do anything with 4000 men and the fighting in Basra is the direct result of your reduction from a fighting force to hiding out in your air base. You have left the field of battle and left it for others to fight your fight… I think you should just go home and leave the battle to those that care… We can use that air base. Oh, and when you get your solders back home maybe they can patrol the Underground and airports for terrorists at least you can say you gave them something to do between trips to the canteen for tea and chips… As Benjamin Franklin said, “Those that will give up their freedom for security will get neither.”
10

indune1,

Canada 29/03/2008 08:33:37

9 - An Image - Twin Huey lifting off from Embassy rooftop as hundreds of South Vietnamese civilians beg to be rescued from NVA.

Don't lecture us mate.
11

,

29/03/2008 10:06:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 29/03/2008 11:26:55
MRD, Tailspin: Listen, we have had just about enough of this Iraq war as much as reading comments such as these. Most of the people of the UK, and certainly of Scotland, did not want this. We were brought 'on side' as a society reluctantly and through a pack of lies about WMD and the infamous 45 minute missiles. For five years those of us who opposed the war from the very beginning have had to swallow our convictions for the sake of our troops and airmen. The time to truly show our support for them is now, bring them home.


This war will never be 'won'. What will constitute 'winning'? The damage was done by the invasion itself and the splitting up of Iraq along ethnic lines. Do please tell us snivelling cowards what the outcome will be? Death, death, death, on all sides. Injuries that will haunt for ever, destruction that will breed resentment and even if, and it is a big if, the 'Allies' and Iraqi forces manage some form of subjugation and order, it will not be ere long before the country disintegrates again.

It was foolhardy in extreme to think that democracy, as we understand it, could replace the iron fist of Saddam in such a place as Iraq. I was no fan of the madman, but I am less of a fan of us, the west, thinking we are supreme in all we do and that our hubris is enough to control someone else's country. Are we to remain there, in what is in effect another Vietnam, until all of our troops are either killed or demoralised? The US has lost thousands... is that a price worth paying for armchair pride? And how many more young men and women are to be a sacrifice for this foolishness and ignorant world view? It seems to me that so long as the one can be called a coward for being wise, the idiots will rule.

No matter what we do now, we have created a monster in many guises that will haunt us from now to eternity, a much bigger and many headed monster than Saddam and his cohorts ever were.
13

rancid brown,

Corrupt EU 29/03/2008 12:17:15
Will Homeland Security (the Militarized Police State) Shock You Into Submission?

http://www.infowars.com/?p=995
14

Gramma Kitty,

Portage Lakes, OH USA 29/03/2008 12:21:37
I am saddened and ashamed at the actions of the United States Government concerning the invasion and occupation of Iraq. My government bullied and lied and cajoled and arm twisted to get those "with us" to go in and wreak destruction on millions of people.
Now the violence is making us and Scotland, the UK and others stay? It's awful. It's wrong. We need to withdraw NOW.
But it won't happen like that unless the people take to the streets enmasse and the soldiers stop fighting.
Those whose business interest lies in the Arab lands won't leave because they are making millions at the expense of the people.
15

Gramma Kitty,

Portage Lakes, OH USA 29/03/2008 12:22:08
Make that BILLIONS.
16

shivago8,

livingston 29/03/2008 12:43:26
Becoming our Vietnam
17

,

29/03/2008 13:53:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Tris,

29/03/2008 14:17:05


Gordon Brown won't have a clue what to do as usual.

He must the the UK's most inept dithering old fool Prime Minister ever... even worse than Major.

On current form he will balme it all on "the SNP and people who want independence and how babies will die in Sierra Leone if Scotland gets it... and.... Oh Iraq? ah well, it's the SNP you see....."

Get the troops out you half wit. They can't do anthing to help; we can't afford any more; sitting in an airport is not doing any good except depriving these soldiers of downtime, seeing their family and friends before you send them off to tame the Afghans.... as if.

Got it Moron....? The message is GET THEM OUT NOW!
19

Griffe,

29/03/2008 19:06:17
Muslim fighting Muslim, Shiite fighting Shiite. This is no place for our troops. Get them out of there.
20

Siroos,

UK 29/03/2008 20:09:57
Most of you are missing one important factor. Iraqi OIL.
There is plenty of evidence that, the mullahs regime in Iran has an active hand in Iraq. They are the paymasters of the militia and the rogue elements.
Nothing will please the mullahs regime more than, the Allies vacating. These rouge elements will take total control and the Mullahs regime will annex south of Iraq and its oil reserves.
They will create another so called Islamic Republic.
Saddam was a Dictator but secular. Another dictatorship of the non secular type with ambitions of dooms day is not to anyones interest, especially ours in the Western World.
21

Siroos,

UK 29/03/2008 20:17:47
There will be no peace in Iraq, until there is a new and Democratic and secular regime in Iran.
The new rime will not interfere in the affairs of Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq ..................
22

Tailspin,

Land of the Free 29/03/2008 22:17:18
#13 - Seriously Amused… I find nothing amusing about September 11. I find nothing amusing about the 2500 citizens of the world murdered in the World Trade Center by Islamic terrorist. I find nothing amusing about the loss of 4200 plus, brave service men and woman of the coalition forces, or the 10’s of thousands Iraq people murdered by Islamic terrorist bent on forcing their will over the people of Iraq.

I see nothing amusing about war or the pain a suffering it brings to all involved. I live in a military town and I see the military funerals and hear taps played and I don’t see anything amusing. I see the widowed and orphaned families and recovering wounded, and it’s not amusing.

I thank God every day for the brave few UK and Americans that are willing to put their lives in harms way so you can be amused.

I see noting amusing either about the hundreds of thousands of Iraq people murdered by the psychopath, Sadam Husain, or his hundreds of violations of the UN Resolutions.

I saw nothing amusing about the bombing and loss of life by your home grown Islamic terrorists in the London Underground.

You asked: What will constitute winning (in Iraq)?

A free and democratic people of Iraq, constitutes winning. But it will take time for the Iraq people to learn the painful lessons of forming a Democracy, just as it did in Europe in the late 1940’s. Were you amused then? Were you even born then? I was and I wasn’t amused. The last time I checked we were still funding our armed forces (emphasis added) in defense of Europe some 52 years later, and I am not amused.

What I do see is your failure to learn from your own history. It’s the history that says that if we would have taken your view to fighting Axis terrorism after Dunkirk, Anzio, Normandy, Market Garden or Bastogne you would be speaking German. Heard that one before?

I see nothing amusing about your defeatist attitude and those of all your fellow travelers. My family left Scotl
23

Tailspin,

Land of the Free 29/03/2008 22:24:51
#23 Continued;
I see nothing amusing about your defeatist attitude and those of all your fellow travelers. My family left Scotland long ago and partly because of defeatist and apologist like you and your ilk but mostly for our freedom. Ring any bells?

Well my amused friend, you may fell comfortable living under Islamic Sheria Law but I don’t and neither do 70% of my countrymen who want to see us win freedom for the people of Iraq because it’s the morally right thing to do.

Oh, and #10 INNDUN 1: It wasn’t the Kaki suits that lost the Viet Nam war it was the Pinstriped suits. And don’t worry, we got your backside covered as usual.
24

JESSE,

UK 30/03/2008 03:38:12
OK LADS--LET'S GET THE HEAT GO'in.

They chant is we our their to help our friends the Israeli's.

Israel hates all Arabs.

That being the case:

WHY IS IT THAT THEY NEVER SEND TROOPS TO HELP OUR POOR YOUNG BOYS WHO GET KILLED EVERY DAY.

Perhaps the answer lies buried in the KING DAVID blow up in 1948.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!
25

indune1,

Canada 30/03/2008 04:55:06

24 - Oh yeah - just like you did in WW1 when you sat out for 3 and 1/2 yrs. Oh yes, let's not forget WW11 where sat out for 2 1/2 yrs.

Checking our 6 ? You have a selective memory.

As to Vietnam - your Army was a conscript one. Not the best terms for winning hearts and minds at home - never mind those in Vietnam.

Suggest you enroll in a serious Military History course - outside of the USA.

Reminds me of a joke.

An American vacationing in Canada remarks on the fact that Canadian paper money is colour coordinated as to its relative value - $5 , $10 and so on.

A Canadian replies by saying: " That's because our beer has alcohol in it!"

26

indune1,

30/03/2008 13:49:10
*Please enter your comment*
27

indune1,

30/03/2008 13:49:10
*Please enter your comment*
28

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 31/03/2008 01:22:32
#23 Tailspin - Land of the fries

I expect you were one of those who championed your tanks blazing into Iraq in March 2003 with "We shall never forget 9/11" emblazoned on their banners.

You are in no position to be critical until you learn the facts.
29

Findlay Thompson,

14/04/2008 10:51:27
23

"I see nothing amusing either about the hundreds of thousands of Iraq people murdered by the psychopath, Sadam Husain, or his hundreds of violations of the UN Resolutions".

I believe that chap was in power with a little assistance from the USA.

"A free & democratic people of Iraq".

As long as Islam is the chosen rule book of the majority of the Iraq people you will NEVER!, NEVER! have democracy in Iraq.

Pull out all foreign forces that are occupying Iraq now!




30

Findlay Thompson,

14/04/2008 10:54:13
25

Please do not make undue comments about our Israeli friends. You know they have absolutely nothing to do with the problems in Iraq!

 

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