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It's all over for the offers-over system, say estate agents

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Published Date: 20 November 2008
ONE of the central principles of the Scottish property market – the "offers-over" price – will die out with the introduction of next month's Home Reports, estate agents said yesterday.
It is predicted that, instead, properties will be marketed at "offers around", bringing them into line with the system in England where bids are encouraged just over or under the advertised price.

Under the new legislation every home put on the m
arket from 1 December will have to have documentation including a full surveyor's report and an estimation of the home's value.

Scott Brown of Warners believes that buyers seeing the valuation figure in black and white will be less likely to consider offering over the asking price.

"If the Home Report estimates your house is worth £300,000, you are unlikely to get anyone paying significantly over that figure, regardless of the offers- over price you set," he said.

In the past, those wanting to be clear about an acceptable bid would have used a fixed price, but Mr Brown says that the advantage of an "offers around" system is that it allows competition among buyers to drive up the price. "The final selling figure for a property could still rise above its valuation if there is enough interest to spark a bidding war."

Warners has already started listing properties at "offers around" and Mr Brown says he will now be recommending the option to more sellers. "After all, if buyers are going to know how much the property is worth in advance, there's no point in setting a price that is well below that value," he said.

Leslie Deans, an estate agent and solicitor, suspects that the "offers around" system's popularity will be short lived. "At the moment 75 per cent of our properties for sale are on at a fixed price and I can see that some owners might prefer an 'offers around' price if that became established and understood. But in a stronger market, the 'offers over' price has always worked very well for sellers."

Mr Deans believes that, like a fixed price, an offers-around price will limit the amount buyers are encouraged to bid. "The marketing tool of setting a low offers-over price, to create some competition will still work in a buoyant market and there are a lot of sellers who will want to make clear the minimum level of the offers expected."

Richard Loudon, of Simpson & Marwick, says that offers-over still has advantages. "The most sought-after properties, those with a value that is indefinable by a surveyor, will still be priced at offers-over."

He believes this price might be pitched much nearer the valuation figure, however. "I think the days of very low starting prices are gone, but for something with a real scarcity premium, an offers-over price will remain the best way of getting the optimum amount."





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1

Edward,

20/11/2008 00:46:55
Just to remind, that it was the last Labour administration that pushed through this system, which is a copycat of the English set up. But should also remind that the system in Scotland has been and is far more successful that the English. In England, House buying is a complete mess, with chains of buyers involved, which elongate the whole process.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/11/2008 03:09:51


"It's all over for the offers-over system, say estate agents"?

Yes It Is!,...'Greed', has its final say!


3

Navvy,

20/11/2008 03:14:24
people will always offer what they think what will secure the property

Estate agents add nothing but another, expensive, layer in the buying or selling process.

I will stick to the *SPC even though that system has its flaws
4

TM,

LA, USA 20/11/2008 06:30:19
That system never made sense anyway. Nothing else is sold that way. Seller offers and buyer makes a bid based on what the comparable sales data tells them is the value, not what the seller tells them it is.
5

john z,

edinburgh 20/11/2008 07:50:44
Just more squealing by fat cat estate agents.

The reality is, a number of english managed estate agents have expended up to Scotland during the Brown boom years, but they hate the fact that Scotland works differently to England.

In many respects the Scottish system is better than the english system, and using offers around in England usually attracts offers below the asking price.

The Scottish system of offers over is clear and better for getting the price you want.

This is nothing to do with the realities of house pricing, but lots to do with english estate agents trying to foist the english offers around system into Scotland. It makes it much easier for english estate agents to use the same databases and computer systems as they already use in england. It is NOT about helping homesellers!!

Offers over is clear, it is offers OVER. Offers around in england, is used to make offers below.

I have actual experience with housing in England, and EVERYBODY offers below, where the house is listed as 'offers around'. People shouldn't be duped by this nonsense from Warners, trying to foist their english home selling system on Scots.

'Offers over' and Fixed Price' is a good system, and works well.
6

,

20/11/2008 08:06:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Peekay,

20/11/2008 08:18:20
#6 "I have actual experience with housing in England, and EVERYBODY offers below, where the house is listed as 'offers around'."
That has not been my experience, so it is obviously not EVERYBODY.
8

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

20/11/2008 08:55:06
"It still doesn't alter the basic rule in Scotland that once an offer is accepted it is binding - that's the principal weakness in England."

Agreed. Both systems have their weaknesses. Perhaps we should consider having the strengths of both combined?
9

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

20/11/2008 08:59:36
#6 Offers over is also dead because buyers can no longer get the 100%+ mortgages that were required in many cases to buy under offers over.

Also with the Home Reports buyers at least have an idea of the property's value instead of resorting to guess work - and they can still get their own valuation as before if they don't trust it.
10

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

20/11/2008 09:24:50
#11 Many don't even do the same work but give clients a copy of a valuation report that another client has asked for.
11

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 20/11/2008 09:27:04
And about time too. The Scottish system has imported much of the English system, fixed price really means we'll haggle around this number, missives are delayed until days before completion so you can pull out at any time ( that implies chains) All tht remains is some obscure second guessing and bluff on price.

OO only appeals to sellers who dream of the super high suprise bid. Otherwise its ridiculous
12

carrottop,

Dumfries 20/11/2008 09:45:16

You have as much chance of getting a fair Home Report as you have of finding a straight garage for a MOT.

More jobs for the already privileged boys.
13

Captain Concussion,

20/11/2008 09:46:25
#11. What will make such a 'huge difference', do you think?
Nobody has mentioned the fact that SELLERS will be required to pay in the region of £500 - £800 for a Home Report to be prepared and the buyer may then opt to have a subsequent survey carried out for their own use anyway. Does that alter opinions any?
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 20/11/2008 09:53:11
If "offers over" and it's ilk had been outlawed 10 years ago, we probably wouldn't find ourselves in the situation we are in now.

Well done stupid labour. Another brilliant plan or yours causes misery.
15

bluehead,

edinburgh 20/11/2008 09:57:42
the fact that this will slow the housing market even slower is obvious to every one except this goverment who haven't got, a particle of brain, working between them,just how thick dos any goverment have to get before people realise what kind of mob is running this country,?they couldn't supervise a game of bingo,
what a pile this lot are!!!!
16

Pedant,

England 20/11/2008 10:15:55
We had this same discussion on these pages about 2 years ago. I had tried to buy a house in Edinburgh, but found the, "you may have to offer anything from 20% more, up to up to twice the 'offers over' price" system, made it impossible to get any sense of what 'offers over' price you should be looking for. I reluctantly moved away from Scotland, after 30 years, entirely because I found it impossible to buy a house under that system. I bought a house in England with no problem at all - I knew what price I wanted to pay, looked for a house around that, and bought it (for slightly less). It was just like buying a car - you know what you can afford, and with a bit of haggling, you may get a bit off. But you'd never buy one if the salesman said, "This is a price I've plucked from the ether. It bears no relation to what I will accept because I'm actually wanting lots more than that. Make an offer."
17

,

20/11/2008 10:22:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Ron S,

Edinburgh 20/11/2008 10:30:08
I agree with #6 - too much influence from so-called Estate agents.
Bringing in Home Reports at this point is a mistake because:
a)it will further slow the market by taxing sellers up front
b) my recent experience with the English system suggests the sellers pack is complete rubbish - riddled with 'boiler plate' text and with huge mistakes.
I would advise anyone taking a Home Report deal to ask, before they agree to buy it, how errors will be handled and who they will actually pay. Mine (through the Halifax) was factored before it was due to be paid. Ie the survey company had sold the bill to a shower of spivs so it was impossible to contest the bill.
19

Brian Ferrari,

20/11/2008 10:32:34
#11 Alasdair

Not sure if you left your brain at home this morning or if you are just crainially challenged, but you are meaning surveyors rather than estate agents. And they will be earning MORE not less money under the new system.

Up until now most offers are made subject to survey and only one (usually basic hence less expensive) valuation was obtained. In future the seller pays for a more comprehensive report (more expensive) and the buyer may then have to pay for their own report, depending how long it has been since the seller's report was carried out.
20

ccc,

20/11/2008 10:45:37
A blind auction is only good for estate agents and sellers. It is bad for anyone wanting to buy a house.

I have heard so many people overjoyed at how much they had got for their house due to offers over. They are then mega miffed when they realise the boot is on the other shoe when they have to buy their next place !!

It is a stupid system and simply drives prices higher than they should be. What good is it someone paying 200k for a house they could have reasonably paid 180k for ? The only people winning are those taking a commission for the deal. No surprise who that is...

As for these estate agents I don't know why they are still given input in these stories. They have no clue. This has been proven time and time again by their previous inane ramblings.

21

ccc,

20/11/2008 10:52:05
Anyone notice a certain similarity in the ramblings of todays estate agents parasites ?

"The advantage of an "offers around" system is that it allows competition among buyers to DRIVE UP THE PRICE" - SCOTT BROWN

"An offers-over price will remain the best way of getting the OPTIMUM AMOUNT." RICHARD LOUDEN

"Like a fixed price, an offers-around price will LIMIT THE AMOUNT BUYERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO BID" - LESLIE DEANS

----------------------------------------------------

Greedy parasites. Only interested in the amount of commision they receive. No care for what is a FAIR price or a REASONABLE TRANSPARENT system for buyers and sellers alike.

I hope these EA's go bust and lose their own homes. That would teach them a lesson they deserve. Their greed and ramping has been central to this entire financial mess we are in. They deserve to be hit hardest. I trust that karma will prevail.

:)
22

Brian Ferrari,

20/11/2008 10:59:09
ccc - you are suggesting estate agents should NOT try to get the best price for sellers. Interesting.
23

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 20/11/2008 11:02:06
All categories of offer types, whether offers over, offers around or fixed price are subject to negotiation prior to exchange of contracts. In Scotland the contract exchange signifies that the accepted offer is binding on both parties. The real problem as I see it is the visibility of the offer process. In England it is open but subject to problems due to last-minute reversals of contract and queues forming. In Scotland this is not problem due to the binding nature of the agreement.

However the weakness in the Scottish system is that the offer process is secret to other purchasers and so the natural laws of supply and demand are regularly distorted so that an estate agent can claim (as one did to us in Glasgow) that "offers should be pitched at least 30% above the "Offers over" price". So, in order to secure the property the intending purchaser has to put their best bid in (highest price guess).

It's this secrecy aspect which causes house price inflation in Scotland where it exists and that should be swept away. The advantages of the binding contract should be retained so everyone wins - no queues and people offering reasonably sensible amounts rather than vastly inflated prices. This might not be good news for surveyors, estate agents and solicitors, relying as they often do on their fees being a fraction of the house purchase price rather than for the speciic service they offer (another antiquated load of nonsense that needs abolishing). So guess what their preoccupation will be? Add a chancellor who was keen to inflate the economy and there's the recipe for disaster.
24

Captain Concussion,

20/11/2008 11:09:23
#24 - ccc.

A typical estate agency fee at the moment is probably about 0.75% of the sale price of a property, so for every £10,000 the seller gets, the agent gets £75. Hardly a licence to print money, is it??
25

ccc,

20/11/2008 11:19:47
#25.

I am simply suggesting than an estage agent should get the best deal for BOTH buyers and sellers. Not just sellers. They have concentrated on one side - that has helped push prices up to stupid levels - as explained by #26.

#27

It all adds up. The majority of an EA's income from sales is commission. So if house prices go up by 10% in a year their commission also goes up by 10% in that year. It is not difficult to see why EA's have been ramping the market for so long. How many other people have been getting double digit pay increases over the last 5 years.....

These people are now looking at WAGE CUTS. Now do you understand where the endless ramping comes from ?

They have no interest in buyers or sellers. All they care about is their commission (The vast majority anyway)
26

11+failed,

the pans 20/11/2008 11:24:17
When are these estate agents going to face reality. The latest Scottish system is, advertise at a Fixed Price and look at the Offers Under you receive, that is, if you happen to be lucky enough to get an offer.
27

Brian Ferrari,

20/11/2008 11:26:17
ccc

You fail to understand a very basic concept. A better deal for a buyer = not such a good deal for a seller.

You therefore can't get a BEST deal for a buyer and a seller.

And estate agents represent sellers' interests. They are their AGENTS and should have sellers' interests as paramount.
28

New Town Resident,

20/11/2008 11:34:02
#26. Spot on. I've dealt in both markets too and you put your finger right on it.

I'm not interested in debating which country is superior, they should both be changed to the best possible system, which definitionally will be the same in both. The problems with Scotland are price transparency, the survey scam and lying solicitors, the problems with England are lack of legal enforcement and lying estate agents.

However guess we also need to factor in transaction costs as well. Actually if you combine the best features of both England and Scotland I think what you get is the French system? People tell me transaction costs are higher in France but whether thats simply down to lack of competition I don't know.
29

New Town Resident,

20/11/2008 11:37:53
#30. Not necessarily? Some potential buyers are so put off by all the scams so sellers could be losing out on aggregate even if individual sellers get a good deal.
30

New Town Resident,

20/11/2008 11:43:07
re my post 32, now notice #19 says precisely that. personally i rented for a long time in Scotland because i didn't trust the offers over advice and the way some solicitors refused to consider offers unless I'd forked out for a survey up front.
31

ccc,

20/11/2008 12:19:53
#30

"And estate agents represent sellers' interests. They are their AGENTS and should have sellers' interests as paramount."

What are you talking about ? Unless I have missed something estate agents also represent buyers...

What we have with offers over is the estate agent doing two things:

(1) Pushing up prices by encouraging buyers to pay more than they have to.
(2) Pushing up prices by encouraging offers over for sellers - to encourage buyers to pay more than they have to.

This results in estate agents comission increasing faster than it should. Not difficult to understand why they like this system....

Let's hope the smart EA's use their noggins and realise the game is up. Fair transparent deals are the way forward for EVERYBODY.
32

allatsea,

Jakarta 20/11/2008 12:51:45
For some time housing has been seen as a commodity rahter than a home to live in. There seems little point in ramping up prices to levels that cannot be sustained when most have to buy another house no matter what they can sell their existing one for. Homes are for living in and not for playing with on the commodity market. :)
33

Stan Butler,

20/11/2008 13:18:04

The basic premise of this idea is nonsense 'if purchasers see the valuation figure in black and white they won't offer much more.'

During the long boom years purchasers were having properties valued before submitting offers(the expense of obtaining the valuations was one of the justifications for introducing sellers' surveys). It didn't stop them submitting ever higher offers.

What has led to the demise of asking prices being phrased as 'offers over', at least for the moment, is the state of the market, nothing else. If, or when, the market improves the offers over system will return. People have short memories, particularly where money is concerned.

For those lamenting the departure of what you regard as a uniquely Scottish system, save your breath to cool your porridge. The system was wildly inflationary, with people often paying tens of thousands of pounds more than they needed to to secure a property. Reintroduce the old Scottish system of sale by auction (roup). That is the best way of establishing the true price of a property.




34

ccc,

20/11/2008 13:33:16
#36.

I don't think this has much to do with any anti Scottish feelings !!

The English 'offering' system is far fairer and open (When talking about offers - this article is not about the impact of chains/legally binding offers etc..)

As #38 says the best idea of true value is at an OPEN auction. Offers over is simply a blind auction where you are bidding against imaginary numbers. Only ever going to push prices one way - and contrary to what we have been told for years, high property prices are in fact bad news for most people. As #35 clearly understand.
35

The Master,

20/11/2008 13:48:54
To quote the article: " Scott Brown of Warners believes that buyers seeing the valuation figure in black and white will be less likely to consider offering over the asking price."

I fail to see the logic here: in the days before it became common to offer "subject to survey", all parties would invariably obtain their own surveys, and so were well aware of the estimated value of the property before participating in the "offers over" system.

Even before the crash, when most offers were "subject to survey", the vast majority would have been well aware of the actual price of the property in any event: anyone can obtain a rough idea of the value of a property by checking the prices of similar properties on any number of free sites which obtain property price information from Registers of Scotland. Indeed, the Registers themselves will also provide such information on payment of a small fee. Alternatively, there's a chance there'll be a similar property for sale at a fixed price: it's not rocket science!

The truth of the matter is that the Home Report by itself will not lead to the demise of the "offers over" system, but the current market conditions undoubtedly have seen its temporary demise. Leslie Deans is quite right in his supposition that "offers over" will make reappearance once the market eventually revives.
36

Helter Skelter,

20/11/2008 16:41:37
Meet the new boss.
37

Dogandgoldfish,

20/11/2008 20:22:37
There are good and bad things in both the English and Scottish systems, I have bought and sold in both but where this new idea will fail is getting surveyors involved every house I have bought in England and every house I have bought in Scotland has had faults missed by the surveyors. I consider surveyors to be a gross waste of money and I no longer use them, so it now makes me wonder just who has pushed through this unwanted legislation. no-one ask for my opinion as a house owner but I am expected to pay money to a bunch of useless overpayed surveyors
38

Fred Quimby,

20/11/2008 20:45:14
That and fixed price.

ESTATE AGENTS STILL WHISTLING IN THE DARK METHINKS
39

Fred Quimby,

20/11/2008 20:46:46
37
JayDeeTee,
20/11/2008 13:05:34
Or Anglisised even.

Anglicised?
40

Dogandgoldfish,

20/11/2008 21:54:12
Sorry I should have said overpaid surveyors or maybe overpaid leaches would be a better description
41

,

21/11/2008 07:54:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

googler,

21/11/2008 09:28:58
#4 -

"Estate agents add nothing but another, expensive, layer in the buying or selling process.

I will stick to the *SPC even though that system has its flaws"

....but everyone quoted here IS a member of the local SPC.... and they currently promote themselves with the slogan "*SPC - sign of a great estate agent"
43

googler,

21/11/2008 11:26:21
Following on from #27 - "A typical estate agency fee at the moment is probably about 0.75% of the sale price of a property .. "

Warners are at the top of the ESPC tree, according to their claims; recent article in The Hootsmon said they sold £12 million worth of property in last 6 weeks.

12 mill at 0.75% = £90,000. According to their website, they have 90 staff spread over 5 offices. Divvy that £90k out amongst 90 staff over 6 weeks, and I make that £166.67 per person per week...

Feel free to correct my O-grade arithmetic on this if I'm missing something really obvious, but are the commentaters here saying £166.67 per week from which expense and running costs have still to be deducted is 'overpaid' ... ?
44

googler,

29/11/2008 10:56:46
... thought that one would silence a few ...
45

Househunter,

Glasgow 09/12/2008 23:55:03
Having read all of the above, I think that the offers over, offers around and fixed price tags are red herrings.

An offer will still only be determined by what someone is prepared to pay for a house and how much they want to live there.

Currently, I would offer less than the valuation in any Home Report. Last year I would probably have offered more than the valuation. Valuations go up an down over the years on the same property.

All this tells me is that a Surveyor's valuation is not a definitive answer as to what the house is worth. Instead it is a marker that you should either shoot above or below.

The sealed bid system I think is the fairest all round. For a seller it will optimise the price and as a buyer I don't want to be pipped by a pound for my dream house.

The only thing that Home Reports will change is jargon.




 

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