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Labour could team up with the Tories at Holyrood

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Published Date: 18 August 2008
IAIN Gray, the frontrunner in the Scottish Labour leadership race, raised the prospect of a groundbreaking pact with the Conservatives yesterday as a way of taking on the Nationalists in the Scottish Parliament.
Speaking to a leadership hustings meeting in Aberdeen, Mr Gray said Labour and the Tories shared the similar aim of reducing council tax bills for the most vulnerable.

Mr Gray said Labour wanted to exempt pensioners from water charges while the Tories wanted to give pensioners a 50 per cent council tax reduction.

He said: "We really have to ask ourselves if we cannot find a way of getting some kind of compromise which would get relatively immediate succour to at least a section of the population and by working together actually drive that through the parliament."

Mr Gray said the Labour Party should be prepared to undertake that kind of cross-party approach if it was to use the parliament of minorities to its advantage.

Derek Brownlee, for the Tories, said his party would be willing to talk to anybody, from any party, who was committed to helping reduce the impact of the council tax.

With more MSPs and MPs supporting his bid than his leadership rivals Cathy Jamieson or Andy Kerr, and with sizeable union and constituency support, Mr Gray is leading the race to replace Wendy Alexander as leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament. His decision to seek a deal with the Conservatives – and the Tories' willingness to pursue it from their end – makes some form of agreement a real possibility.

That prospect will alarm some in the Labour Party who still regard the Conservatives as their most bitter political enemies but it shows that Mr Gray is not afraid to seek completely different solutions to achieve some form of success in the Scottish Parliament.

All the candidates for the Labour leadership believe the council tax should go in the long term, to be replaced with some form of property-based tax, but they also feel something should be done in the short term to help those suffering most acutely from high fuel and food prices.

The move to exempt pensioners from water charges was pioneered by Ms Jamieson and is being supported by the other two candidates.

Mr Gray, the former enterprise minister, also said he wanted to get supermarkets to lower the prices of "daily essentials" such as bread and milk to a uniform low level.

He said that some supermarkets charged more for basic foods in their smaller city centre stores than they did in their big, out-of-town superstores.

Mr Gray said it was often those on lowest incomes who had to use the city-centre stores and there could be "social tariffs" for foods, to make sure supermarkets provided the same prices for all.

A spokesman for the leadership contender said afterwards that Mr Gray was not looking to force the supermarkets to change their prices but he wanted to introduce a voluntary code to make sure the most disadvantaged did not lose out.

The hustings in Aberdeen was the first of a series which will see the three leadership contenders tour the country.

Mr Kerr was adamant that the party had to stop tearing itself apart. "We must stop beating ourselves up and start beating up the SNP," was his blunt message, repeating his insistence that while some in the party thought Alex Salmond was a "big figure", he saw him as a "big target".

Ms Jamieson took a different tack, stressing her left-wing credentials and insisting Scottish Labour had to change and stand up for "Labour values" if it was to regain the trust of the people.

The former justice minister also made it clear she would be backing those taking strike action on Wednesday in the public-sector pay dispute.


The full article contains 646 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 August 2008 10:04 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Vivas,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:03:47
Vote Gray, vote Slabservative.
2

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 00:07:36
the tories in partnership with labour.

I thought they already were as there is no difference between them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1562964/Baroness-Thatcher-visits-Gordon-Brown.html
3

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 00:07:49
Why should anyone be surprised at two Tory parties getting together? Mind you, I would be surprised if the Scottish Tories would align themselves with a really right wing party such as SLab.
4

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 18/08/2008 00:08:44


So , they are not desperate or anything then ?

It is due only to the fact that labour is sooooooo far from its original values and morals that this is a valid proposition.

Desperately clinging to the last shreds of dignity , the workers party decides to throw even those shreds away in a futile attempt to keep their snouts in the trough.
5

Boy Wonder,

18/08/2008 00:09:10
If Labour EVER go into a partnership with the Tories ... they'll be burying themselves forever!

That's one thing I NEVER want to see!
6

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:12:40
Hush! Is that the hum of Keir Hardie spinning?
7

,

18/08/2008 00:14:40
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8

Senga Jean,

SCOTLAND 18/08/2008 00:14:47
MAKES SENSE AT SO MANY LEVELS. Aye right,allright.Blairrite,Brownright, Bye Bye Baby. welcome the new dawn of Scotland free,self confident and rid of all the self loathing leaches. All of Scotland's peoples will be better off and not just in the material sense.
9

druidh,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:16:20
Tartan Tories?
10

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:17:06
#1 Vivas

It's called consensual politics. You nats approve when the SNP is involved.

#3 Oldnat

Strange comment. Am I to presume that you parted philosophical company with Old Labour when it began to drag its unelectable hulk into the late twentieth century?

#4 Figures

"Values and morals"? Do you actually think that old-style socialism is morally superior to modern social democracy?
11

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 18/08/2008 00:20:30
I dont think Nu Labour have any values or morals is what I think .
Labour selling out to the tories , i havent laughed so hard in ages. All to keep their grubby snouts in the trough any way they possibly can.

Moral compass ? How about Morally bankrupt ?
12

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:20:31
#11 Spook

I would venture to suggest that much of the particular antagonism between Labour and the SNP is due to the fact that they're competing for the same centre-left voters.
13

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:23:54
12
Good Morning AM2

Your comment at 3

"unelectable hulk"

What goes around, comes around.
14

Senga Jean,

18/08/2008 00:25:37
#15 i always associate that word with sex. Who is being shafted?
15

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:28:22
#13 Figures

So, you don't think that people anywhere between centre-left (Labour) and centre-right (Tory) have any values or morals. That's an awful lot of people!

Can I presume that your sympathies lie somewhere significantly left of Labour?
16

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 00:34:24
AM
"Can I presume that your sympathies lie somewhere significantly left of Labour?"

So, which parties are right of Labour?
17

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 00:41:27

AM2 Yes this would be consensual however most Labour voters I know are socialists not unionists any pact with the Tories will kill them .

This is Gordon Brown speaking via his Scottish puppet if they do this at last we might see an independent Scottish Labour party

Because most Labourite people I know cant stand the Tories after the Thatcher years bring it on it will end the union so much quicker .

And guess who will be the new Tartan Tories
18

Senga Jean,

18/08/2008 00:43:50
I think AM2 is a Unionist franchise....and this one is not nearly as challenging as the last one
19

What happens when the oil runs out?,

18/08/2008 00:44:42
The fires of hell could burn out too!

Annabel would eat Iain Gray for breakfast but she'd rather stab her eyes out first.

Nice to see the same old suspects turning up so early on the same thread.

Auntie Mary had a canary . . .

Too!
20

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:45:20
#22 Oldnat

The Lib Dems in certain respects and the Tories in most.

Now would you like to answer my question to you in #12?
21

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:46:23
#25 Senga Jean

I'm pretty much disengaged from newspaper forums.
22

,

18/08/2008 00:47:01
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23

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:47:38
25
Indeed Senga, he seems to start and then stop in less than an hour.

But he is funnier.
24

,

18/08/2008 00:49:24
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25

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:52:16
#24 Marky Bhoy

I think that, like Hamish Macdonell, you may be reading a bit much into what Iain Gray actually said. From the quotes above, he seems interested only in cooperation on certain issues where there may be sufficient common ground, not in a full-scale "pact".

Interesting that your Labour-voting friends consider themselves to be socialists. Presumably you have no mutual contacts with Oldnat or Figures, who seem to imagine Labour to be somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan!
26

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 00:56:29
32
Most Labour people I know vote that way because they think they are the party of 60 years ago IE the working man .

Thank goodness the message is slowly getting through
27

SlyFifer,

Somewhere West of Scotland 18/08/2008 01:01:32
WOW. This is such a great idea, why has no-one ever thought of this before. Corrupt Liebour, bereft of any sensible policy, sinking under the weight of absurd levels of taxation and of course our dearly beloved Conservatives and Unionists. What a great partnership. I can see it now, electoral bliss. With one fell swoop the SNP will eliminate this unionist cancer which has lied, cheated, deceived and mis-lead the Scottish people for generations. What a great thing this Internet age is. At last people can find the truth slowly leaching out behind the black out curtains erected in front of the Scottish people by these hideous cretins. Soon more will be revealed to the Scottish people who will finally find out just what scumbags Liebour and the Conservatives have been for decades.
28

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 01:04:53
#29 Marky Bhoy

Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum. Godwin's Law invoked. You lose. Goodnight.
29

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 01:08:58

36

Wrong again I win you are the one who posts links to the Scottish Unionist ( Fascist) party on here
30

,

18/08/2008 01:22:49
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31

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 01:38:23
AM
To answer your #12 I temporarily worked for Labour while they were the best mechanism to get a Scottish Parliament. If I hadn't been going to leave anyway, I certainly would have when there was a movement to return the allocation of council houses to the Labour Councillors. You are probably unaware of what women were required to do to get a house under that system.

Re your #27 Please provide evidence for your assertion. Strange to say, no one here will believe your stating anything.
32

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:53:59
#54,

You and my Auntie Mary too have figured out that all is not right around here.

Spooky claims to be from a minority group but uses white vans as a term of abuse.

Shurely shome mistake?

33

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:55:34
#55,

Me as well.

What can it mean?

How many times can you betray a friend and colleague?
34

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:58:27
Where did the 40 posts go?

How come they disappeared from RSS too?

This moniker is on borrowed time but all posts saved to HTML.
35

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 02:16:23
12 AM2, Scotland,

It is not often that AM2 is right – BUT he’s wrong again!!

It is plain that your understanding of the English language is faulty, in that you do not know the difference between ‘to connive’ and ‘to consent’.

Consensual Politics requires Mediation between the parties to find areas common agreement and to seek Compromise in other areas. What is proposed here is the joining of forces by two normally opposing ideologies to defeat what they perceive as the common enemy.

I know war is said to make strange bedfellows, but in this case their ‘common enemy’ is the party chosen by the electorate, so ipso facto they are opposing the will of the Scottish people.

I find it impossible to believe that any member of either the Tory or Labour Party would even consider such a proposal. The effect on their core vote could be devastating. The “ma Da and his Da afore him voted Labour” brigade will be horrified; as will the Blue rinse brigade. They will have no option but to vote LD or SNP, alternatively not vote at all. Such and agreement would obliterate both parties I just cannot see the grassroots Tory accepting this.


36

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 02:16:37
12 AM2, Scotland,

It is not often that AM2 is right – BUT he’s wrong again!!

It is plain that your understanding of the English language is faulty, in that you do not know the difference between ‘to connive’ and ‘to consent’.

Consensual Politics requires Mediation between the parties to find areas common agreement and to seek Compromise in other areas. What is proposed here is the joining of forces by two normally opposing ideologies to defeat what they perceive as the common enemy.

I know war is said to make strange bedfellows, but in this case their ‘common enemy’ is the party chosen by the electorate, so ipso facto they are opposing the will of the Scottish people.

I find it impossible to believe that any member of either the Tory or Labour Party would even consider such a proposal. The effect on their core vote could be devastating. The “ma Da and his Da afore him voted Labour” brigade will be horrified; as will the Blue rinse brigade. They will have no option but to vote LD or SNP, alternatively not vote at all. Such and agreement would obliterate both parties I just cannot see the grassroots Tory accepting this.


37

Christina, Aberdeen,

18/08/2008 02:58:46
Labour Unionists like Gray would still, as in Labour's submission to Kilbrandon Commission in the 1970s, rather see a Tory government in London than a Labour government in Edinburgh.
38

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 03:18:41
right anyone interested the realm of scotland and scotland UN story read here. page 150


https://wcd.coe.int/
com.instranet.Instra
Servlet?command=com.
instranet.CmdBlobGet
&InstranetImage=2425
84&SecMode=1&DocId=5
60272&Usage=2
39

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 04:07:19
66 its not a story its the proof of what the scotland UN commitee did the link i gave is for the council of europe which i hadnt come accross before probably with the secrecy thing.

Some people had doubted that the scotland UN commitee actually existed. Or that labour had nothing to do with the scottish parlaiment coming into being that these documents and the time line prove that devolution was forced on them they didnt want to do it.
40

Maisie from Morningside,

18/08/2008 04:24:51
He wasn't called TORY Blair for nothing.
41

,

18/08/2008 04:39:14
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42

donald,

glasgow 18/08/2008 04:45:47
The Union Jack Tories already have a pact with the Tories against Scottish democracy.
43

democracy,

Scottish Borders 18/08/2008 05:04:25
Iain Gray is a HUGE joke,he needs some alliances to go forward, as he simply couldn't himself.

Did you see him on one of the Newsnight Scotland progs. where he was reduced to a gibbering wreck by Gordon Brewer, so can you imagine what Mr A.Salmond will do to him, you would almost have to feel sorry for him.........almost!!!
44

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Aroond and aboot 18/08/2008 05:26:38
Is there no decency left in the Scottish Labour Party. Treachary is all it is. How can this so called party of the people even think about getting into bed with the torries who were responsible for decimating the whole mining industry never mind the Poll Tax.

Go on ya bunch of numpties, do it and watch whats left of your support base disappear as if by magic!

Scotland on towards freedom and prosperity.
45

Phil C,

18/08/2008 06:31:24
"Mr Gray said Labour wanted to exempt pensioners from water charges while the Tories wanted to give pensioners a 50 per cent council tax reduction."

What? Only 50%, help the vulnerable...

....The SNP propose a 100% reduction in unfair council tax for EVERYBODY. Instead, the poorest and most vulnerable will pay nothing. People will pay according to their means. Easy! It's called Local Income Tax. In this consensual age Labour would be better joining in with the SNP's common sense approach, rather than trying to cobble together some half-baked measures to improve their diminishing popularity.

This proposed 'alliance' of jokers is old Labour/Tory adversarial politics at it's worse. Voters should consign both these petty and damaging parties to history.
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/08/2008 07:11:42
This proposal reeks of desperation. Labours way of confronting the fact that they are now as unelecteable as the Tories.
47

Richardinho,

18/08/2008 07:17:00
"Mr Gray, the former enterprise minister, also said he wanted to get supermarkets to lower the prices of "daily essentials" such as bread and milk to a uniform low level."

Wow-that's pretty radical!

"A spokesman for the leadership contender said afterwards that Mr Gray was not looking to force the supermarkets to change their prices but he wanted to introduce a voluntary code to make sure the most disadvantaged did not lose out."

Ah no, just the usual nu-labour pii-sh and spin.
48

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:19:30
Aren't New Labour and Conservatives pretty much the same party now anyway, they only tinker at the edges of policy and their funding sources are different.

Labour carried over Tory policies when came into power at Westminster, Tories say will do similar with some of Labours if get in.
49

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:30:12

druidh,
edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:16:20

Indeed.....

New Labour (Same Old Tory),
should be their battlecry.

This unholy alliance has been alive and well for some time now,and it was inevitable that all Unionist parties would come together,when the truth about what they have been doing finally became common knowledge.
Recent events have accelerated this inevitability,as the three Unionist parties realise that LIEBOUR can no longer command the gullability of the village idiot.

Its still relatively unknown in most Scottish households that Scotland has been conned for the last fifty years at least,over the strength of the Scottish economy.The complete picture ceased to be published around 1958.Since then what we have is biased through exclusion or misrepresentation and the complete picture has been suppressed.
McCrone proved this in a number of ways.
1) If the Westminster government had been publishing the real complete figures for Scotland they would not need the McCrone Report.They would already know what effect the oil would have on the Scottish economy, because Scotland was actually sound without the oil and still is.The oil merely enhanced our strength.
2) The Report was basically what the SNP had claimed for many many years plus the oil revenues.Scotland was very sound indeed,embarrassingly so.The case for independence was overwhelming.
3) The Report was suppressed (and a hazy mist of lies and deception was transmitted over the airwaves and published by the PRESS GANG) and its only because of the Freedom of Information Act and the sterling efforts of an SNP researcher who discovered it ,that it surfaced at all!

This should be common knowledge of course,but at least the incompetence of the Brown government coupled to the warmongering and dishonesty of the BLIAR government are enough to convince most people that neither Labour nor the United Condom are the answer.

Who cares how we set ourselves free,as long as we do so.
ITS TIME.
50

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:52:25

Richardinho,
18/08/2008 07:17:00

It occurred to me some time ago that luxury and non essentials could carry a level of VAT or similar tax which was ring fenced and used to subsidise essentials, where NO VAT is payable.
We already do this based upon whether its cooked or not!Surely we could do this based upon whether its justified or not!
This would be self financing and taking 10p off a loaf of bread and pint of milk is only the tip of the iceberg.The whole idea of indirect taxation is one I do not particularly like,since the ability to pay is surely what we should look at first.The problem with taxation of poorer people is you create more problems than you solve, apart from being morally bankrupt anyway.

If we must tax them ,we could at least show some sensitivity and leave the daily bread that they eat alone!
Ok,if you want to increase VAT on luxurious items to compensate, then do so if you must.
I still cannot see the argument of employing PAYE which is fair,only to then impose indirect taxation which is reclaiming the fairness of PAYE back again.Hypocrisy is the word I would use.We already have to suffer the indignity of the budget where the government announces changes to the free pay allowances (as if we should be grateful),when anybody with basic level arithmetic should be able to work out that failure to do so, means any pay increase incurs more tax,(Free Pay allowance has not risen in line with inflation) and is in real terms a pay cut therefore, in net terms,(plus it buys less because of inflation anyway).
We cannot win presumably,but we can at least not volunteer our poorest citizens as a price worth paying!
51

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:54:49
It has often been said that if there is no Council Tax then there can be no CT benefit from central government.
With this in mind, if there is a reduction in CT to those who are already in receipt of CTB, how much does Iain Gray expect to lose of the £400 million we get from central government at present ?
52

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:12:06
82 Have you even read the scotland UN committee documents?

Do you understand that these prove that devolution was forced on the labour government by the council of europe and that it wanst their idea.

That they were forced into this by the scotland UN committee.
53

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 08:18:04
81
Presumably all of it.

The situation as I understand it,is that Westminster cannot allow Scotland to introduce fair taxation,because England will want it also and it screwes up Broon/Darling's intended tax bribes which are what they mean by a relaunch in the Autumn.
The money was always part of the Scottish Block Grant,which was itemised in previous years,as I understand it.You could clearly see it was included!

That was changed to a total only,thus facilitating the claim (which is another pack of LABOUR LIES )that this was a seperate item and only payable under Council Tax.
The claim that this is a seperate ring fenced payment is garbage,and was payable under council tax and rates before that,and there is no reason why it cannot be paid under a Local Income Tax ,other than it does not give Brown/Darling the opportunity to bribe you before going to the polls to save as many of their own fat rears and scrawny necks as possible.
If there were, why do the Lib Dems also favour this taxation?

Clearly like most of Labours claims its total nonsense and aimed at their own supporters most, most of whom they obviously consider to be too stupid to know any better.
I think a lot of people are seeing through Labour for the self serving quisling highland dancers that they surely are.They do NOT represent poor people,they get rich at their expense, whilst claiming to act on their behalf.They are the lowest form of life on the planet!
54

Venachar,

18/08/2008 08:28:59
The Monroe doctrine was that one navy could beat any two other navies at one time.

The Gray doctrine is for any two political parties to beat one party sometime maybe.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.
55

Bob M,

Paisley 18/08/2008 08:37:30
Hard to believe "Scotland United" was only a decade or so ago...

56

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/08/2008 08:39:35
From today's Guardian

A former Labour cabinet minister has declared that he is paid £36,000 a year for providing an estimated three hours a week advice after coming under investigation for allegedly breaching the peers' code of conduct.

Jack Cunningham is the 'working class' hero in question.
57

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:44:43
85 sm753

you are the one thats deluded so you have also read the 1993 veinna declaration that started the whole monitoring process of pluralist democracy?

You will also have read the documents from the council of europe for 1992 onwards before the other countries joined when they only had observor status.

Because obviously your going to go right now and read them?

and then of course you will come right back and tell us what they say?

Unless you can come up with a fOI document that disproves the scotland UN commitee documents then you are the one thats the fool.
58

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:48:36
85 sm753 these documents prove that it was the scotland UN committee and not the labour party that were responsible for devolution in scotland. There are others which will be released in time. these are still classified.
59

ReverinBlueJeans,

Ayrshire 18/08/2008 08:59:30
Scotsman seems to have decided who they're backing for the leadership contest judging by column inches given to the three candidates. Almost all to Gray, almost none to the rest.
60

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/08/2008 08:59:40
From the Telegraph

Labour chiefs are resigned to losing the upcoming Glenrothes by-election and are instead concentrating on limiting the damage caused to Gordon Brown's leadership by the expected defeat.

Yes, the Party and Gordon are far more important than any of the electorate.

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland
61

Doh,

18/08/2008 09:07:31

It used to be vote Labour and get Tory policies
but now it is going to be vote Tory and get Labour policies.

And of course the Nats are quite happy to deal with the Tories.

I tell you that David Cameron is a political giant.
His smile has enchanted the world.
Just like Blair.
62

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15
What an admission!

Iain Gray must be a very naive politician if he actually believes that the Scottish Electorate would agree to this cockamamie proposal?

In making public this ludicrous proposal he has only shown how weak and desperate leading members of the Labour Party and their advisors in Scotland have become!

Informal pacts, cross-party agreements, and shared aims with the Scots Tories must depress many Labour supporters who are looking for real leadership from the likes of Mr. Gray, not surrender to the Nationalists!

Does the Labour Party in Scotland have a death-wish?
The geriatric Scots Tory Party self-imploded because it refused to face up to the urgent need for constitutional change, and as a result its politicial power base was destroyed overnight.

Does the Labour Party in Scotland wish to suffer from the same fate?

63

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:14:21
97 Mr. Lachie Todd,Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/08/2008 09:16:14
Labour + Conservative = 62 seats. They would need the support of others!
65

Ian C,

Fife 18/08/2008 09:16:55
Instead of Labour and the Tories ganging together to get the SNP shouldn't they try and help them make Scotland better ? Or is that a too adult thing to do ?

For once, people in Scotland believe they now have a Government which is truly interested in them.

Labour cannot accept that the days of the "People's Democratic (aye, rigth) of Lanarkshire et al" have got. In 50 years they done nothing for Scotland but kept Labour alive/in power in England.
66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/08/2008 09:18:57
In any case, I can't see Annabel going along with it. She was mightily p1ssed off by the way she was treated in the setting up of the Calman Commission.

Labour have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
67

,

18/08/2008 09:19:21
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68

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:26:09
97 Mr. Lachie Todd,Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15

Again!
They dont want it to happen, but...................
they are privately resigned to the inevitability of it happening anyway,which is tantamount to the same thing in a way.

They are desperate and this (like devolution) buys them some time which is all that Labour have left,and precious little of it.

They are a party of opposition and they know it!The problem is its in the interests of all three London parties to deny Scotland as much as possible.They are united by their anti Scottishness.Labour are still seen as the least guilty of being anti Scottish.
They will suffer the same fate as their Tory friends and presumably see the combined strength of this unholy alliance as the only way to stop the SNP, and they will have to take independence via the FTTP system or a referendum therefore,with absolutely a total betrayal of the people and democracy a price they would willingly pay!

Such is the democracy of our Westminster rulers.

Sod the people .
Its the classic case of Mind over Matter.
Gordon disnae mind.The people dinnae matter!
THE PEOPLE WILL DECIDE and when they do,it shall be.
End of Debate.
69

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 18/08/2008 09:38:08
That Labour could join forces with the Tories should come as no surprise. The unionists are prepared to abandon any values and principles in an increasingly desperate attempt to save the United Kingdom.

The LibDems showed the way by their contemptible willingness to fail to support the chosen government of the Scottish people, after having spent eight years in coalition with a party that supported the Iraq war and the basing of Trident missiles in Scotland. The union was more important to them than the obscenity of Iraq and weapons of mass destruction in our beautiful Scottish waters.

As the 2010 referendum approaches, expect the worst from these carpetbaggers, and be prepared to counter it. The spectre of Vidkun Quisling has been raised in our country. Don't let it stalk the land.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/moridura

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OARvE4ZzMCY
70

,

18/08/2008 09:40:06
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71

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 18/08/2008 09:41:07
Labour merging with the Conservatives makes sense - they are the same party now anyway. Perhaps the English flavours could do the same thing and Gordo could beg Dave Cameron to be kept on as a deputy PM.
72

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:42:42
102 Angus Mannie,Montrose 18/08/2008 09:19:21


Very true Angus! Brill innit!
One thing that they must surely now realise is that the SNP will not consider doing anything detrimental to Scotland and her people,since we do not content ourselves with power at Holyrood (as in devolved mkI or MkII etc).We seek absolute control and independence,and if we fail to act in Scotland's best interests its because we are limited by the block grant funding, or overuled by the three london quisling parties.
The SNP will never press the self destruct button.
Even our village idiots should be able to work that one out!
Scottish we are and Scottish we remain and proud of it.
We may be a minority government at Holyrood but we are a government elect also!
Labour Tory and Lib Dem are merely enacting delaying tactics, which were probably discussed unofficially as in an unholy, but neccessary alliance,many years ago.
All three knew that whilst they would oppose each other at Westminster as always,here in Scotland they could jump into bed with each other as and when demanded by their Westminster masters.
They deserve each other!
The timetable has accelerated certainly but this was always going to happen at some stage.

Your move Scotland!
Its Time .
73

Alan B,

18/08/2008 09:50:38
There is not really much between the parties in the scottish parliament given its limited powers ie they basically have a fixed budget set by someone else which they then have to spend.

Also labour have ditched most of there values and any view of being a socialist party. As such it makes sense for them to try to cosy up with other parties. I think on many issues we can see the lib dems and snp are closer while the tories and labour share a similar view on certain issues. In many ways it actually shows that labour are growing up. It is also shows a maturing of the scottish parliament.

The biggest problem i had with what Grey said was that labour were interested in lowering council tax. in power many agree it has gone up too far too fast. As such that just seems like a clear lie. The thing about labour is they alway seems to have a problem with basic honesty.

I think labours move here is due the the most likely outcome in any further election. The lib dems really look like they are going to go into free fall. The tories look like they could make a steady but slow improvement making them clearly the 3rd party in scottish politics. If labour were to keep its immature distance from the tories they would simply be showing that they have no will to return to power.



74

DanB,

18/08/2008 09:53:03
In terms of old fashioned political differences you could barely slide a rizla paper between all four mainstream parties at Holyrood. I'd include the SNP in that liberal market-friendly consensus; the idea that the Nats are fundamentally more lefty or socially aware than the others is self delusion. The only big difference then is nationalism versus the union. Given that, some cooperation amongst the three broadly unionist parties is inevitable and dare I say it desirable. As a minority government the SNP does not represent the will of the Scottish people by any fair definition. Democracy is better served if the union-friendly views of the majority of the Scottish people can be given their proper prominence, despite the posturings of the tribalists who currently hold power (riding on the back of a disaffection with the UK government rather than an upsurging wave rushing inevitably towards independence, as some jokers on these forums seem to believe). Do the math, as they say.
75

Alan B,

18/08/2008 10:00:30
#DanB

I think the reason there is such a limited difference between the parties partially due to the limited powers of the scottish parliament. The old fashioned differences as you say were many round labour being a socialist party and wanting the nationalisation of industry. With labour ditching that the only big economic difference is round tax. But the sp has so little power over tax it conseals the issue. If the scottish parilament was to control taxation you would see more of a political difference. For instance even with the snp they have advocated a cut in corporation tax to 20%.

Where i think labour are different to the rest is that i think the rest at heart support and understand the generation of wealth. While labour in scotland still are at the stage of just wanting to spend money and not generate the wealth that underpins it.
76

brownlie,

18/08/2008 10:05:42
109 DanB

"As a minority government the SNP does not represent the will of the Scottish people by any fair definition"

The will of those given an opportunity to vote in the Glasgow East bye-election shows that the SNP does, increasingly, represents the will of the Scottish people.
77

Alan B,

18/08/2008 10:05:52
#DanB

"As a minority government the SNP does not represent the will of the Scottish people by any fair definition"

You could say that about any party. The previous labour governments in scotland were no different. Even at westminster the case is the same but parties get overall majorities in parliament due to the type of voting system adopted. So i do not really see your point.

Putting party politics aside constitutional issues really should be decided by referendums. Parties should really put democracy at their core rather than trying to achieve there own goals at any cost. That means having a view on say the constituion and then putting it to the people.

I personally would like referendum extended to many more issues like in the US where referenda question can be attached at election time. Giving direct democracy to the people.
78

bumpkin,

18/08/2008 10:07:43
two deadbeat parties can go into the electoral dustbin together
79

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 18/08/2008 10:26:29
The Scottish Government represents the verdict of the Scottish people under our electoral system as it presently stands. Successive British governments have taken power under similar systems.

Only the politically naive would suggest that any government represents the will of the total electorate - that is why we have opposition parties in our parliaments. But democratic opposition does not mean a systematic and ruthless attempt to frustrate the people's democratic choice. Up to this point, only Annabel Goldie has appeared to understand this, by offering intelligent and principled opposition.

However DanB may read it, the election of the SNP government was a seismic shift in Scottish political awareness, Glasgow East has shown that it was no flash in the pan, and I hope that Glenrothes will offer further confirmation of this surge towards independence.

Name calling - "tribalists and jokers" - is not political analysis, it is unionist desperation. The Scottish people's position on independence is evolving at an accelerating pace. It is patronising arrogance on the part of the unionist to claim that the Scottish electorate was not fully aware of the implications of making a massive shift in its voting pattern towards a party clearly and unequivocally committed to independence. That does not mean that every voter was voting for independence at the ballot box, but they sure as hell knew what the longer term consequences of their vote might be.
The Glenrothes result will be a significant new marker on the course. The 2010 referendum will be the ultimate verdict. Whatever the outcome, the dead grip of the Union and of the unionists has been irrevocably loosened. If you think we are joking, DanB, the joke will be on you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/moridura

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OARvE4ZzMCY
80

Doh,

18/08/2008 10:27:17


In Germany the Conservatives and Socialists are in coalition in government. It could happen here.

But both parties will suffer for it - as they further disillusion their core voters and confuse floating voters. This "convergence" will lead to increasing support for the SNP and of course the LibDems.
81

Yeah1,

18/08/2008 10:32:26
#111 Brownlie:

"The will of those given an opportunity to vote in the Glasgow East bye-election shows that the SNP does, increasingly, represents the will of the Scottish people."

So Glasgow East represents how the Scottish people feel about the SNP then? Considering they won a minority of the vote (43%) and only 18% of the total electorate in Glasgow East voted for them it doesn't really say much for them does it?

Apart from that it is somewhat ridiculous to suggest that the result in a single by-election skewed by 'protest' voting against an unpopular government and PM in any way represents how the Scottish population as a whole are feeling.

I will ignore the ridiculousness of you believing that the result in a single by-election in any way shows how the Scottish peop
82

Yeah1,

18/08/2008 10:38:41
#117

"The Scottish Government represents the verdict of the Scottish people under our electoral system as it presently stands. Successive British governments have taken power under similar systems."

Erm....no. The Scottish government is a minority government, the British government is a majority - major difference.
83

Number 6,

Germany 18/08/2008 10:39:18
Oh how humiliating is this for Labour and their supporters?. completley devoid of policies to fight the far superior SNP, they are forced to jettison their last molecule of socialist principals, and jump into bed with the party they have brain-washed their followers into thinking are the "anti-christ". How are they going to sell this latest betrayal on the steps of Glenrothes ?

Anything , anything to keep their snouts in the trough.
What a disgrace they are, and the sooner they are wiped off the political map the better.
I see "Big Cathy" has regressed back to the 70's and is supporting the up and coming stike action,that could bring chaos across Scotland. "Nice wan hen."
84

Alan B,

18/08/2008 10:42:29
#Doh

I do not think they will have a coalition. I think it would be more about working together in areas they share a common view. For labour it is probably about desperation as they are abit of a headless chicken at the moment.

I think it will confuse labour voters far more than any tory ones. I could not see tory voters really being alienated by a move like this. They will know that pr is how the parliament works and that means working with other parties. They will also know that there is not a big difference in policy terms between them particularly with the limited powers of the parliament.

I do not think the snp would make a big deal about labour cosying up to the tories as they themselves want a constructive relationship.

While i know you are a lid dem supporter. I think the lib dems are going to struggle electrally. I think they need to be far bolder and have some radical ideas if they want to turn there fortunes around.
85

Alan B,

18/08/2008 10:45:31
#117 Yeah1

"The Scottish government is a minority government, the British government is a majority "

That misses the point. The only reason the british government has a parliamentary majority is due to the voting system. It does not show that they have more support in the country.

In fact if you actually analyse it the uk government actually got a smaller share of the vote in england than the opposition. So they are not even the most popular party in england. They got the biggest number of seat in england because of the way the seats were carved up.
86

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 18/08/2008 10:49:57
May I suggest that the experimental new Labour-Tory hybrid party is called: "Laboratory"
87

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 18/08/2008 10:51:53
A very hearty welcome to our friends in the Labour party. You have seen the light of Conservatism. Now that you have expunged the corruption from your midst we can progress onwards together with the task of squashing those tiresome Nats who pervade these postings with puerile attacks on our great and glorious Union. Long live a united GB !!
88

Lauwrie,

18/08/2008 10:59:25
Quite a few of those mysterious red entries today where it says
"Comments Removed By Administrator
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and then doesn't give any.

Intriguing. One can only speculate.
89

bluehead,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 11:01:03
which proves finally that the labour will stoop to any level if they think that they can get there way
What a pile!!!!!
90

Yeah1,

18/08/2008 11:03:11
#124

"The only reason the british government has a parliamentary majority is due to the voting system."

Yes the FPTP system is not a true reflection of how people vote.

" if you actually analyse it the uk government actually got a smaller share of the vote in england than the opposition. So they are not even the most popular party in england."

It was an UK election, not an English one. They got the largest percentage of the vote in the UK as a whole - what they got in a particular part of the UK is irrelevant.
91

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 18/08/2008 11:05:25
120 Yeah1 I understand and accept your point - I did not mean to suggest otherwise. What I was saying was that successive British governments have taken power supported by a minority of the electorate. I was was not referring to the number of seats in the parliament.
92

weh,

18/08/2008 11:08:58
tinyurl.com/5n4xnf

This document proves that the EU FORCED labour to devolve powers to Scotland!

For tales of unparalled treachery towards us Scots-by Scots (and other nations) -its a MUST READ!
93

Doh,

18/08/2008 11:10:30
#112

Alan I know you are an SNP supporter.
Hence you *hope* the LibDems will struggle at the next election. However that is just wishfull thinking.
Even accoding to the last SNP poll the LibDems are level pegging with the Tories - and that is without a leader or a clear sense of direrction. So au contraire there is everything to play for at the next election.

Also remember at the last Scotish election the LibDems suffered by association with Labour and unwillingness to deal with the SNP. The same conditions will not apply at the next Westminster election.

BTW I think it is more than likely that the Tories will form a coalition with Labout if the opportunity arises. They do in Germany and in many local councils throughout Britain.

David Cameron is just Tony Blair in a blue rosette, and as more people realise that the more support will rise for third parties.
94

Gusto,

18/08/2008 11:11:35
"groundbreaking pact" - joker! study some history! They have been doing that since the 40s - just to keep the SNP at bay. So have the Libdems - alliegence to London and all that, chaps!!
95

Yeah1,

18/08/2008 11:14:47
#132

"This document proves that the EU FORCED labour to devolve powers to Scotland!"

Perhaps you could provide a link to the actual EU documents which supposedly shows this, rather than a link to an un-authoritative and clearly biased website?

96

,

18/08/2008 11:23:26
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97

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 11:25:45
Can anyone identify the point in time when Labour and Tories found this apparent enthusiasm for reforming the CT?
98

lulach mac gille coemgain,

18/08/2008 11:26:46
Unbelievable desperate measures - next the Labour Party will be joining with the BNP and Monster Raving Loonies !

The Labour party are an insult to Scotlands People!
99

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 11:30:02
Presumably in about half an hour AM2 and SM753 will be replaced by PM1505 for the afternoon shift? How are the circulation figures going chaps?
100

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 11:32:10
everyone on here is dilusional Scotland is earmarked to become part of the Russian Federation under mr putin as first Minister all opposition parties will be irrevelant as they will be illegal under russian rule, The russians want Scotland one because its wasy to take and 2 to control england because it is part of Nato.
101

,

18/08/2008 11:33:20
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Publius,

London 18/08/2008 11:35:24
This article - especially the headline - and some of today's posts are making far too much of an obvious point. In a multiparty parliament parties have to co-operate to get bills passed. If Labour and the Tories co-operate to reform the council tax, it doesn't amount to a coalition government. When the SNP and the Tories co-operated to get the budget passed, no-one talked of a coalition government. And when Labour, Tories and Lib-Dems co-operated to the trams bill through, no-one talked of coalition.
If the SNP want to get a referendum bill passed, they will have to find another party or parties to support them. So their supporters who fill the Scotsman's board may as well get used to the idea and stop abusing the parties they need to cultivate.
103

,

18/08/2008 11:36:24
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,

18/08/2008 11:44:01
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 11:44:36
Perhaps I could draw the CyberNats’ attention to this blog posting by Richard Thomson, a capable and respected SNP researcher...

http://scotsandindependent.blogspot.com/2008/08/outbreak-of-common-sense.html

In it, he describes Gray's position as “consensualist”, “pragmatic” and “sensible”, which is precisely what I was trying to put across earlier.
106

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 11:47:40
#145
Rab,son, you forgot your medication this morning didn't you?
107

,

18/08/2008 11:53:16
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,

18/08/2008 11:54:41
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Embra Don,

18/08/2008 11:58:59
There there Rab, just slip on this nice jacket with these fashionable tapes and buckles. We'll put you in a nice comfy room where SHOUTING WON'T bother anyone.
110

,

18/08/2008 12:06:15
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111

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/08/2008 12:15:43
Way back in 1994 a few months after the death of John Smith, and the election of one, Mr Anthony Blair MP as leader of the Labour Party, I 'coined' the phrase 'Nu Labour/Owld Torie' a few months later I 'nicknamed' Mr Anthony Blair MP 'Tory' Blair.

How gratifying to see that my original impression has been proved completely accurate and to the Labour Party's shame, they have , with this latest episode, by Mr Ian Gray MSP, proved beyond all reasonable, or indeed by any shadow of a doubt, that I was totally justified in apply that description to this financially and morally bankrupt party of turncoats and traitors.

This cohort of Quislings have not kept any of there 'Manifesto Promises', they are, indeed, the Party of Broken Promises', starting with
1. we will not privatise the railways
2. we will re-link the old age pension to the national median wage
3. we will reform the Upper house and make it an elected chamber
4. we will not surrender parliaments sovereignty to Brussels
5. we will use our 'golden share' in privatised companies to benefit the people and reign in the excesses of big business.

I use only five examples as a reminder that the liar Tory Blair launched all his election campaigns with his 'five promises card', which contained his main objectives for each parliament, none of which he attained.

Aye Nu Labour/Owld Torie/Torie/Scottish Labour one and the same, traitors one and all, to the good citizens of this fair and beautiful land which is Scotland
112

,

18/08/2008 12:19:19
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113

Miss H,

18/08/2008 12:23:25
147 AM2 of course it is consensual politics. The SNP has been doing it since May 2007.

It is also totally ~~~~~~~ hilarious since Labour have been using the Tartan Tory tag to attack the SNP since May 2007. The whole of their Westminster campaign is going to consist of 'Vote SNP and let the Tories back in again.' Glasgow East was a dress rehearsal and the fact that it failed will not put them off because they have nothing else to say and no other reason to ask people to vote Labour.

Almost as hilarious is the fact that some people are touting Henry McLeish as Labour candidate in Glenrothes after they spent Glasgow East telling people the SNP were going to empty the prisons of tens of thousands of violent thugs on the basis of a review of penal policy headed by .......... Henry Mcleish.

You could not make it up.


114

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18/08/2008 12:24:10
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115

Neil,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 12:25:13
Such a pact would not only be very cynical but, more importantly from Labour's point of view, be seen to be extremely cynical by its remaining supporters.

Principles are actually very important if a party has a long term future. Labour should try & find some, preferably some sane ones.

Pretty much the same applies to the other parties. Once politics was about more than getting your feet under the table.
116

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 12:32:51
#161 Rab The Ranter

I think that if you look back I neither agreed or disagreed with you - I was just worried about your blood pressure. If your pal Che had simply abused people and shouted, no-one would have listened to him either.
117

The Strategist,

18/08/2008 12:32:58
#147 AM2

Errr... Well not quite how I'd interpret Richard Thompson's blog. His statement is a very general one that doesn't neccessarily support a Labour/Tory pact but is in favour of collaboration where practical.


118

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/08/2008 12:37:30
Rab the Ranter

Having read all lot of your posts over recent months, I'm still at a loss to work out who you vote/work for???

First glance, it would appear you are a Sleaze party worker/voter, but as your postings get more fraught and frantic, I think you could be DUP/BNP??

Or have the BNP and the Sleaze party joined up???

Do enlighten us poor Nats
119

inkster,

18/08/2008 12:39:19
#147 AM2 quote

¨Richard Thomson, a capable and respected SNP researcher...¨

Thats him damned then, back to the fiddle Richard.
120

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 12:41:10
147 AM2,

While there is a lot to be said in favour of consensus politics, do you think that the new leader of the Labour group at Holyrood, will be able to reach consensus with his masters in Westminster and the Treasury over reform to the CT and the with-holding of CTB?
121

Number 6,

Germany 18/08/2008 12:46:37
#145 robert, the reason Nationalists are tearing in to Liebour is because once again, their rank hypocrasy comes frothing to the surface. For decades now we have been hearing from the liebour party that the tories are evil incarnate, now in sheer desperation to keep their places at the trough, they are happy to jump straight into bed with them!
The SNP have never said they would not work with other parties, for the good of Scotland. That is the difference. Liebour, a party of principals, although they will change them if you don't like them.

I feel this will all die down as soon as their London masters tell them to "Pack it in" and get "Back on message". Truely pathetic student politics from the now completley discredited Liebour group.
122

Lianachan,

Highlands 18/08/2008 12:47:37
Preservation of the union at all costs, eh? Shows where those party's priorities lie.
123

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/08/2008 12:50:36
136 sm753,18/08/2008 11:15:38

More to the point do YOU have any evidence to prove that there representations didn't have any effect on how Scotland is governed?

It is very easy to 'rubbish' a point of view when you have no logical or rational counter against it.

This is self evident by the rantings of such rabid, and I mean that in the literal sense' Unionistas as yourself, AMdux, Rab the Runter, Publius, who constantly and with out scruple fill these forums with the verbal detritus of Unionism and support for it's failed philosophy.
124

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/08/2008 12:56:19
178 Number 6,Germany 18/08/2008 12:46:37

'That is the difference. Liebour, a party of principals' Aye you are right 'A party of Principals, but not Principles'!!!

At least they think they are 'Principals' no one else does ;-))
125

Calum Crubag,

Alba gu brath. 18/08/2008 12:57:39
This just confirms what we already knew. Labour/Tory = right wing dinosaurs.

Thing is, when will the unions wake up to this? Duh!
126

,

18/08/2008 12:58:49
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,

18/08/2008 13:04:09
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128

English Bob,

England 18/08/2008 13:05:09
That's an unholy alliance if ever there was one.

Come on Scotland the brave - vote SNP and get it done!
129

Miss H,

18/08/2008 13:10:12
Rab we are not condemning them so much as laughing at them.

In fairness to Iain Gray we do not actually know if he is arguing for a ‘pact’ with the Tories or if he is saying that the Labour group should work with them on an issue by issue basis. In true Scotsman fashion that key issue is left unclear.

If he is suggesting a pact he is bonkers.

If he is suggesting that there may be areas where his party can work with the Tories then fine but Labour should then stop attacking the SNP for doing the same.

What seems likely is that he is suggesting that Labour could work with the Tories to block the SNP in the Scottish Parliament while at the same time arguing that a vote for the SNP at Westminster will let the Tories back in again in the UK.

That’s what we are laughing at in case you had not guessed.

130

,

18/08/2008 13:11:59
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131

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 18/08/2008 13:40:45
#125 - the merger is more likely to take the first syllable from one party and the last syllable from the other ... "Our Con"
132

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Toun Ayrshire coast 18/08/2008 13:45:21
As A Scot Nat, i dont agree with much AM2 posts, however i do enjoy reading his posts, keeps us all going, and does not stoop to personal name calling.
133

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/08/2008 13:46:36
187 Rab The Ranter,Ayrshire 18/08/2008 13:00:12

Sorry about that Rab I didn't mean to 'tar you wie the Onionist brush', but was only highlighting the written detritus that you so profusely profligate on these forums;-).

So please accept my apology.

Boggle
134

Matt there,

somewhere 18/08/2008 14:12:11
Hamish Macdonell gets suckered by a Labour party spin! Wheeee! What jolly fun. Twerp!
135

kimba,

18/08/2008 14:18:04
Well,that certainly got a reaction from the SNP lackies!
136

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:18:37
#130 Yeah1

My point was just that in Westminster it does not necessarily mean that becuase you have the largest share of the vote you get most seats. I was not suggesting it was an English rather than uk election. Just pointing out that basing your argument on number of seats can be misleading.
137

Number 6,

Germany 18/08/2008 14:24:22
#196 "Rab", you still fail to see the rank hypocrasy demonstrated by this suggestion. The SNP will and have worked with anyone they think can benefit Scotland.

Labour, on the other hand, have portrayed the Tories in Scotland as the "anti christ" for decades.

Now, out of desperation, they are prepared to jump into bed with them.

Do you see the difference now ?
138

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:24:33
#Doh

"Hence you *hope* the LibDems will struggle at the next election"

Do not really want the lib dems to struggle as you suggest. I just think they need to sharpen up considerably and as you say "a clear sense of direrction". Or they could face very difficult scottish election with the possibility of almost being wiped out if they get squeezed. I could see that happening if Scott gets election but think the other 2 candidates for leadership would offer alot more.

I think in uk election lib dems will suffer being squeezed by the 2 big parties. That tends to happen when elections are close and/or people decide to kick the sitting government out.

139

vitesse_skye,

portree 18/08/2008 14:26:23
Well i have seen it all now. Labour have existed so long in Scotland because they were the only credible option to the tories. They lost Glasgow East possibly on the cosy tea at number 10 with Paw Broon and Maggie. Now Labour are warming up their substitutes to play out the last few minutes until full time and one of them scores the ultimate own goal before he gets onto the park. Now Scotland have not only an option to the Tories but also to Labour. I canvassed in 1977 or 78 for Willie Hamilton in Glenrothes. A longstanding Labour MP when Labour meant high taxation a council house when you needed it. A choice of jobs in whichever field you wanted. A health service run by Matrons Nurses and Doctors. A dentist at the end of a phone when you had toothache. Labour under Blair/Brown and the Conservatives under Thatcher et al DESTROYED that yet the crass ignorance of Labour honestly believe that if they join an unholy alliance with the Queen of the Damned then Scotland will thank them for protecting the Union. The only union Thatcher did not break was this one but she sowed the seeds or its destruction and Labour have supplied enough s@#t to make them grow. SNP troops get down to Glenrothes and take your future in your own hands.
140

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:41:59
#vitesse_skye

You have abit of a rosy view of labour in the 70s.

Remember in the 70s they cut health spending in real terms, the only party in the history of the nhs to ever do so.

There economic legacy was 25% inflation, a failed incomes policy, sick man of europe economy, low productivity, mass hidden unemployment through non jobs and massive overmanning, and virtually bankrupted the economy which lead to them have to go to the imf for emergency banana republic like loans. It was the conditions laid down by the imf that incidently lead to labour cutting health spending.

141

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England 18/08/2008 14:45:15
I love it. They've got the rope, the stout tree - and now the Scottish Labour Party have found someone (in the shape of the Tories) who will give the wobbly chair a right good kick so they can swing nice and free...

Talk about doing absolutely anything to get power!

The Scottish Labour Party are finished - I can only hope that the canker spreads south and does for the Westminster lot also.

Good riddance to corrupt rubbish. (from a former life long Labour voter of over 30 years).
142

Roscoe P Coltrane,

18/08/2008 14:45:35
Final proof, as if any were needed, that Labour no longer exists and that you're even less likely to find a socialist amongst Labour's ranks than you are a ref with a spine at Ibrox.
143

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:47:44
#vitesse_skye

And from a moral and democratic point of view withheld the Mcrone report showing their own economic report of scotlands financial/economic position. While publicly saying it would be a economic disaster for scotland to go independent at the time labour in the 70s own economic and hiden report said completely the opposite (effectively scotland would be a rich country).

Add to that the morality over the assembly referendum where labour put in undemocratic clauses. A clause that meant with a turnout of 50% you would need 80% of those voting to get an assemby. It also conveniently counted the dead in order help stop an scottish parliament/assembly at the time.

Labour in the 70s were not some ethical party. They were just as corrupt as they are now.
144

Doh,

18/08/2008 14:49:10
#205 AlanB

I dont want to labour the point but I dont see this squeeze and wip-out you are predicting.

In the last YouGov poll the LibDems were up at 18% which is actually quite respectable. You also forget at the last local elections it was Labour that was squeezed into third place.

As David Cameron is revealed as the next Tony Blair - things can only get better - even in Scotland.
145

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:49:36
#Roscoe

Seem to remember that it is celtic that have had a dodgy goal/penalty decision in both games so far. :)
146

Doh,

18/08/2008 14:57:39


Oh one thing this article doesnt discuss is the complete hypocrisy of the Tory party - who oppose PR in the UK but benefit from it in Scotland. They should only have one MSP in Scotland under FPTP.

The Tories are laughable.
147

Alan B,

18/08/2008 14:59:39
#Doh

"As David Cameron is revealed as the next Tony Blair "

While I agree, Clegg seems to be abit the same (although i know little about him). But he does seem to want to reposition the lib dems to the right with a tax cutting agenda.

Have no idea how scotland will vote at a general election but i could see in a uk context the lib dems being squeezed. Although it is possible that labour voters could turn to the lib dems rather than vote tory.

"You also forget at the last local elections it was Labour that was squeezed into third place."
I would happily see the lib dems "squeeze (labour) into third place" in a general election.

I think they will struggle in the next scottish election (unless the snp make a mess and their star falls before that).

I do agree there is all to play for for the lib dems in Scotland. I just think they need far better leadership and get back to having some radical policies. A Charles Kennedy leading the lib dems in the scottish parliament would make a big difference.

Over the years i have liked alot about the lib dems. Firstly they were constitently pro-european. Supported the euro. Where the only party to officially support indepedence for the bank of england. Supported devolution for scotland and not just to stop the snp but for better government (as such there motivation was correct unlike much of labour). Also has clear policies like LIT and PR for government even if I would not completely sold on them.

Anyway we shall see how these elections go.



148

kimba,

18/08/2008 15:18:01
As Salmond paces the floor in Bute House,not only is Team GB doing amazingly well in Beijing,(who was saying the union is finished)but now half of Holyrood is ganging up on him!
149

zigzag,

Canada 18/08/2008 15:18:52
Double teaming works...then they bury the daggers into each others backs.

Is this an edict from Broon,How very Shakerpearian.
150

kimba,

18/08/2008 15:30:58
216. Only in your screwed up little head!
151

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 15:31:41
65 karinxxx,
Thank you Karin!!
I believe this is the paper often mentioned by Dr. James Wilkie. I also believe there is a lot more to come. I shall take time to study it carefully. Hopefully those well versed in Diplomatic Corp and Civil Service speak will provide a ‘plain language’ précis for general consumption.
152

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 15:33:14
They just dont get it, how about getting rid of the Council tax completely. A tax on the value of a house is utterly ridiculous and they know it.

The problem is that 50p of every £1 funds local authority pensions, and then there is the fact that if get rid of it and replace with an income tax for which there is already a method of collection - namely PAYE - then what happens to all the highly paid pencil pushers?
153

Finnking,

Lempäälä 18/08/2008 15:49:32
I'm out the picture over here, but.......

Is there no group within Nu-Liebour (Northern Branch) that is planting the seeds for a post independence (old style) Labour Party in Scotland? Surely they see the need for such a party and that they need to start creating it now.

The needs of all parties' English MPs will come way before the needs of the few in Scotland.

Also, if the Tories only slightly drub the English New Labour Party in the 'uk' elections and find themselves having to be nice to SNP (which, it seems, will have a fair few westminster seats) we will have a truly bizarre situation of two parliaments with various party alignments in each.

Then you have Europe.............

154

Climate change is a fraud,

18/08/2008 15:53:35
Proper Tories need to consider coming over to UKIP.
155

BIG EYE,

Paisley 18/08/2008 16:02:34
the way things are going for Labour the prospect of being the junior partner in a coalition with the Tories must seem very appealing indeed after all their one MP needs to go somewhere!
156

pehman,

sussex 18/08/2008 16:03:22

A slab-scon pact,don't make me laugh.

The scon's have done their reputation no harm in the past few months, they're even talking about winning a few more seats at w/minster and Holyrood.

Take a look at how the slib dum's have compared over the same period. they're on the verge of extinction due to they're pact with slab.

A pact with slab is the last thing the scons need.
157

Marga,

Fife 18/08/2008 16:25:08
Off topic, but has anyone else seen this article about the prospective sell-off of Gatwick and EDINBURGH airports? (sorry about capitals, a surprise at least to me):

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article4553090.ece
158

Resolutions,

18/08/2008 16:31:25
Has he asked the Tories? Has he even spoken to them?

I am sure that I heard in 2007 that the Tories were taking each matter issue by issue which basically is the agenda they have been following and in a quite remarkably civilised manner cf our Liebour party.

However, perhaps, just perhaps, there is the slightest teeniest weeniest hint of the Liebour thinking that just may be an idea.

Certainly been absolutely no evidence of this anywhere though has there? Or have I missed something?

(Incidentally the splurges of red continue to irritate and tend to discourage reading what may be relevant posts)
159

Scotish Exile,

18/08/2008 16:31:32
smacks of desperation, ganging up together to try and beat the SNP, what ever next?
160

Resolutions,

18/08/2008 16:34:05
Marga #225 Yes there was some talk that the BAA lot had to demolish their monopoly and several airports were mentioned including those two. But I had not realised that it had progressed to just two, or is it still speculation?
161

Marga,

Fife 18/08/2008 16:48:11
Resolution: see link:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/
article4553090.ece

Manchester Airport Group last night emerged as a a bidder for Gatwick. Other bidders are understood to include Hochtief, of Germany, Macquarie, of Australia, and Dubai International Capital.
...

Analysts believe that a sale of Gatwick and Edinburgh could represent a significant opportunity to raise funds for the business, despite the slowdown in the airport sector since the beginning of the summer.
162

,

18/08/2008 17:16:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
163

inkster,

18/08/2008 17:17:16
They are living in pre Glasgow East days.

Even if they teamed up the SNP would have a thumping majority at the next election.

eg the 'Angus Allianc'e - where political enemies have teamed up to (by 1 vote) keep the SNP out of power.

This kind of ganging up is definately not in the best interests of Scots and Scotland.
164

Doh,

18/08/2008 17:18:11
Just been reading that the Labour, havign learnt from the experience in Scotland, are considering having the
European and English local elections on the same day.

Apparantly Labour think this will cause less confusion.

Aye right.
It beggars belief that anyone still votes Labour.
165

Nikostratos,

18/08/2008 17:18:53
#65 Karinn

"right anyone interested the realm of Scotland and Scotland UN story read here. page 150"
http://tinyurl.com/5n4xnf

"It was a catalogue of intrigue and treachery unparalleled in our country’s history."

Didn't you Nat's say that about the Mccrone report i mean which "treachery was unparalleled" with what its confusing with so much treachery going on well at least in the Diseased minds of some nationalists.

Anyway the place where they got all the material from was actually 'AREA 51' Gulp......the Truth is out there......and reading some the nats deluded conspiracy tales prove some of them are well 'Out there'
166

Nikostratos,

18/08/2008 17:22:36
#223

There u go just for u where it always and with pride

http://www.btinternet.com/~se16/labour/Rosette120.gif
167

Nikostratos,

18/08/2008 17:23:21
#235 for #233

http://www.btinternet.com/~se16/labour/Rosette120.gif
168

,

18/08/2008 17:34:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
169

inkster,

18/08/2008 17:37:27
Nikostratus - Gulp gulp gulp...
170

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:40:53
Well well, teaming up with the tories now. That will certainly help bring out people in central fife in their droves to support labour. I can see that going down a real treat. Teaming up with the tories to tinker around with an injustice that the tories started and the labour party continued in another form. And they can barely bring themselves to admit that the council tax is unfair. What use are the labour party if they always have to be dragged kicking and screaming to throw washed out dishcloths of policies and 'solutions' to help the majority, the people they claim to represent and protect? Labour - you have nothing for us, your cupboard is bare.
What other bright ideas do they have up their sleeve?
The upshot is that the Union is really finished since the two major UK parties do not represent the majority of the people of Scotland for anything - that is why they are getting creamed.
171

,

18/08/2008 18:08:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
172

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 18/08/2008 18:16:52
So Mr Gray is... 'not afraid to seek completely, different solutions to achieve some form of success'! What an astoundingly defeatist and pathetic policy statement from a would be 'Leader' of a political party. Keir Hardie would howl with rage were he to hear this.

If Mr Gray wants to abandon all of his party's historic principles and climb into bed with the tories and if they welcome this with open arms, then surely both of these parties' nonleaders would be better off to dump the 'Scottish branch office' stigma of their organisations and come out as the UUS... the 'United Unionists of Scotland'. Since Anti-Scottish Independence is their only central plank, this at least would make them honest.

Of course he could do the right and courageous thing and that is to completely disengage the party from Westminster, adopt independence as a central plank and become a true opposition to the SNP.
173

Embra Don,

18/08/2008 18:46:51
#221 Climate change is a fraud,

Proper Tories need to consider coming over to UKIP.

LOL great stuff! I though many of them already had?!?

"Climate" - Don't go near the edge of the world in case you fall off.
174

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 19:15:48
242 .... Yes, The tory party and the Labour party may as well merge - same beast different heads !?

UKIP are a great protest vote against the political convergence we are having to put up with - The great left v/s right battle wasn't perfect but they have created a completely useless, directionless, and hopeless form of government as a result of this convergence - both parties have tried to be all things to all folk and ended up being nothing to anyone !

Politics is so boring, PC, and minority driven -- it is time for someone to take the lead out of the centre ground and start giving the people genuine choices again ...
175

John1,

Stirling 18/08/2008 19:58:48
"[Cathy Jamieson] The former justice minister also made it clear she would be backing those taking strike action on Wednesday in the public-sector pay dispute."
Old (suicidal) Labour lives on.
176

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 18/08/2008 21:21:52
This on really does "take the biscuit"!

I suppose if the unionist Tories can do deals with their diametricaly opposed national seperatists then it should come as no surprise to anyone that they would also contemplate doing a double deal with their so called socialist antitheses.

Ian gray might like to be aligned with "new labour" but where exactly do the Tories stand - up to their necks in proverbial s**t I would suggest!
177

stracathro,

glens 18/08/2008 21:34:49
245# spook in leith:
Only 10% think Labour stand up for Scotland's interests, hmm so much for the party of Scotland.!!

more like the puppet party of scotland - i wonder if the slabservatives will stand for office after they have failed to keep Scotland a provence!
178

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/08/2008 23:15:04
249 sm753,18/08/2008 21:12:57

You seem not to be replying to my post at #182

Never mind, carry on obfuscating and rotating.

I fear you're in for a disappointment, but I wouldn't dare to spoil the experience for you.

As I have said on many occasions to such as yourself 'put up or shut up'.

179

snecked,

ARGYLL 18/08/2008 23:25:44
I seriously hope that Labour and the Tories hitch up together (with what's left of the Libdems).
Thgis is the polarisation that the SNP needs starting to take place. Istead of the traditional right against left Scottish policis will now split into unionists v nationalists.
The nationalists always eventually win.
180

snecked,

ARGYLL 18/08/2008 23:27:57
corrected edition
I seriously hope that Labour and the Tories hitch up together (with what's left of the Libdems).
This is the polarisation that the SNP needs taking place. Instead of the traditional right against left Scottish politics will now split into unionists v nationalists.
The nationalists always eventually win.
181

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 23:39:03
85 sm753

Karin I wouldn’t pay any attention to this idiot As the saying goes there none to blind as those who will not see.

182

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 23:54:56
249 sm753

And why should I pay any attention to someone who gives him or her self a name that might just as well be a convict number? What qualifies you to denigrate the work of the Scotland-UN Committee? Do you recall Blair’s reaction the referendum? If you do can you explain it?

I have read all of the papers published on the realm of Scotland and this latest paper JUST released by the CoE and I look forward to the release of further papers that are due. I doubt if these latter papers will be of any interest to you as you seem to have difficulty in comprehending the import of the papers released thus far.


183

dtaj wmt gaga,

19/08/2008 00:11:50
Celtic could team up with Rangers. Too.
184

dtaj wmt gaga,

19/08/2008 00:13:57
All those %ages!

Spooky is turming into a SU!

Hardly surprising with so many posts on the mirror man's blog!
185

artemisclyde,

19/08/2008 10:26:28
an interesting turn of events.

was it not the labour party who were criticising the SNP during the Glasgow East by-election for the rumours that the SNP were ready to work with the Tories at Westminster?

Maybe it was just jealousy.
186

Eve,

Scotland fight on for glory Scotland we'll sing ye 19/08/2008 20:36:51
oootoh!!
187

Eve,

Scotland fight on for glory Scotland we'll sing ye 19/08/2008 20:44:37
Sorry about that comment above got destracted by how white wee cathy Jamiesons hair was in that photo.

Ah would this be the pack that they had about having their own wee unionist thing going on where they look at the powers and forget about the prospect of Scottish independence even allow. Scottish Independence makes the most sence.

Or is this another pack they're going to have.

I wonder how many packs the tories will have had with the new torries (sorry that should have been Labour)by this time next year.

Form the two parties how claime to be diffrent BUT don't suply the evedence on who they differ.
188

frenchnose music,

hell 19/08/2008 22:42:25
Senga Jean,SCOTLAND 18/08/2008 00:14:47
MAKES SENSE AT SO MANY LEVELS. Aye right,allright.Blairrite,Brownright, Bye Bye Baby. welcome the new dawn of Scotland free,self confident and rid of all the self loathing leaches. All of Scotland's peoples will be better off and not just in the material sense.

-rant much?

How I love Nats and their silly rants
189

Tomdonald,

20/08/2008 08:41:20
I have written to the editor several times suggesting Holyrood should become non-party and thus lead the way for Westminster to follow as they must. I would still want the UK to be GB and not GreatScotland though. The red pencil was apparently used they were never published.

 

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