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Published Date: 13 January 2009
A ROW has broken out in the Scottish Parliament after a new bill was put forward by Labour to abolish all hospital car-parking charges.
The SNP have accused Labour of hypocrisy because the charges were introduced when Labour were in power.

The private member's bill by Glasgow Springburn MSP Paul Martin adds to a recent Scottish government edict banning charges. The bill includ
es Scotland's three private finance initiative hospitals – Ninewells in Dundee and the Glasgow and Edinburgh Royal Infirmaries – which continue to levy charges.

When health secretary Nicola Sturgeon axed hospital charges, it was considered too expensive to include PFI because buying out the contracts would cost tens of millions of pounds. But Mr Martin claims the cost has been over-estimated.

"If commercial sites like Braehead and the Fort can provide free parking, it is a sad reflection that people who are being cared for in hospital, and their families, have to pay to park," he said.

The bill has welcomed by public sector union Unison, whose members working at hospitals must pay the charges.

Unison Scottish organiser Matt McLaughlin said: "We are backing this bill to ensure that the needs of patients, visitors and staff are met, in Glasgow and across Scotland."

But SNP Lothians MSP and former general practitioner, Dr Ian McKee, hit out at Labour.

"It beggars belief that Paul Martin is now calling for an end to these parking charges – it was a Labour government that introduced them," he said.





The full article contains 254 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 23:28:26
Another sure-fire vote winner from Labour.
2

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 00:04:14
Unbelievable Hypocrisy.

On the one hand forcing the Scottish Govenrment down the route of PPP and £26 bridge tolls

On the other hand using front line money to pay private contractors off for using carparks that were factored into their PFI projects.

Labour are well and truly rattled.

They are unravelling by the hour

3

Jimmy Le Pie,

13/01/2009 00:04:31
We still never found out who the clowns were who signed the totally discredited PPP/PFI contracts.

Bet it was New Labour Sleaze though???
4

Rasco,

13/01/2009 00:33:33
# 1 Rufus how much is it going to cost to buy out the contract from the PFI hospitals and I also believe the company don't want to be bought out,story was in another paper yesterday.
5

,

13/01/2009 00:33:52
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6

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:04:38
(#2) – (Wardog) – Why is doing the right thing eventually hypocrisy?

Was not the bridge tolls factored into the PFI projects too?

Why does it look as if you are a little rattled at this story?

Is it not you who are unravelling by the hour, and yes future SNP budgetary plans?
7

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:12:11
(#3) – (Jimmy Le Pie) – PPP/PFI is no more than a mortgage for when needs must, so what exactly is wrong with a mortgage?

Has anyone found any irregularities with the PPP/PFI that could be prosecuted, or are you spreading unfounded allegations for self gratification?
8

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:17:01
(#4) – (Rasco) – Do you believe buying out the contracts from the PFI hospitals is a worthy endeavour or not?

Would the PFI hospitals have a choice in the matter of having a contract bought out like this?
9

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:24:20
(#5) – (Jwil) – Wouldn’t you say that it is the job of political parties to give there opponents a hard time?

Isn’t it also the case that political parties try to win over the electorate whenever possible?

Is it not possible that the people might see how weakened a minority Government can be?
10

Edward,

13/01/2009 01:26:15
Labour = Hypocrisy
Labour were against the SNP in cancelling Hospital Car Park charges, now they want to put forward a bill to abolish all Hospital Car Park charges, including those of the Private PFI/PPP Car parks that Labour set up in the first place!
Of course Labour realise that in order to do thi the Scottish Government would have to negotiate and buy out the contracts, at what cost?
Labour made the mess with PFI/PPP , now they want to make a bigger mess of it!
You just couldnt make this stuff up! How can anyone take Labour seriously?
11

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:27:19
Do the people now believe the Labour party shouldn’t of put this proposal forward for buying out the contracts?
12

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 01:36:40
(#10) – (Edward) – Couldn’t it be considered as being better late than never by Labour in wishing to abolish all Hospital car park charges?

As the Scottish Government are so set against PPP/PFI, and you support the Government, can you not accept the buying out of a PPP/PFI contract as being anything but good news for the people who have to use the hospitals.
13

Edward,

13/01/2009 01:43:08
#12 Ewan Randall
At what cost?
All it will happen is, if this went ahead, it will eat into the budget which London want to cut back on, the the Scottish Government will be accused of wasting money
Sorry just dont buy into the labour idea, they were idiotic before and they still are!
14

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 01:48:39
6. Ewan

Oh dear Ewan

Do you have any idea how much it will cost to buy out these PFI contracts?

Can you specify where the money should come from that we are going to pay the private firms twice to achieve this?

Do you even know what PFI is?




Ewan, you seem to be punching the air that Labour have come up with an uncosted scheme that will take money out of frontline services.

You are rattled sir.
15

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 01:49:27
6. Ewan

Why have Labour waited until now to do this?

Why not 12 months ago?
16

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 13/01/2009 01:51:36
The liebor party are a shower of hypocritical liers, they introduce the PFI and now after all the gassing about the alternative cheaper option from the SNP,they want to do a U TURN.Pathetic Ranting Dumb Thick Headed Idiots.Bring on the referendum on INDEPENDENCE, the result will be that SCOTLAND will be attending the Olmpic Games as an Independent Country.However england will not be there, they will be part of something called gb! Or is that Gordon Brown??????
17

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 01:54:40
PPP Forth bridge ' would mean £26 toll ... per day'
Finance row rages on as Holyrood takes on Westminster By Paul Hutcheon and Tom Gordon

FUNDING THE new Forth crossing by a controversial public private partnership (PPP) could lead to a £26 a day toll being imposed for car journeys, new research has claimed.

Figures from experts reveal that PPP would likely increase the cost of the project from £2.3 billion to £4bn.

A 30-year payment plan would have to be recouped by tolls or the public paying £353 million each year.The UK and Scottish governments are in a battle over how the new crossing is to be financed. The SNP administration in Edinburgh, which opposes PFI/PPP, wants the UK Treasury to spread the costs of the project over 20 years.
advertisement

Treasury minister Yvette Cooper dismissed this approach as "not credible", a rebuff which sparked a war of words that has yet to be resolved.

But new research claims that funding the bridge via PPP could hit motorists with a minimum daily toll of £26.

The figures, produced by engineer John Carson and economists Jim and Margaret Cuthbert, were worked out on the basis of how to finance a £2.3bn PPP deal.

They concluded that such a loan, payable over 30 years at a rate of interest of 7.5%, would accrue another £1.7bn in operations, maintenance and lifecycle costs.

The £4bn figure, which includes maintenance costs for the existing bridge, would result in the taxpayer being charged £353m a year to meet the annual repayment charges for the PPP deal.

If the bill had to be picked up by the bridge user, rather than the taxpayer, the research claims there would be a minimum toll of £26 per day for motorists.

The toll would increase if motorists avoided the high bridge tax, according to the trio.

Carson, a PFI expert who worked on the original Skye Bridge deal, said: "I have arrived at a tolling level of £24.74. We would have to add to this the annual maintenance of £15m which would equate to £1
18

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 01:55:02
cont'd...

would equate to £1 on the toll. We have a minimum toll of £26 per day."

He opposes a new bridge and instead wants a tunnel built across the Forth.

Jim and Margaret Cuthbert said: "As things currently stand, it would be potentially disastrous to embark on a major project like a new Forth crossing under PFI or any similar model."

Meanwhile, Nationalist hopes for a new crossing suffered another blow after Treasury sources rejected the Scottish government's Plan B' for funding.

Sources close to Alex Salmond told the Sunday Herald that, instead of spreading the bill over 20 years, ministers would settle for spreading the bill over 10 years, reducing the capital costs to an "unexceptional" £200m a year.

However, Westminster last night ruled out this second option as well.

A senior source told the Sunday Herald: "Ten makes it no easier than 20. The point is you can't borrow money from yourself from budgets you don't have."

Cooper has suggested the Scottish government either converts revenue spending to capital, hoards its annual underspends, or drops its opposition to using a PPP/PFI deal.

A spokesman for the First Minister said: "This is a hugely revealing study from acknowledged experts, which confirms the wisdom of the Scottish government funding the new bridge with traditional procurement. Under an SNP government, there will be a new Forth Bridge built on-budget, on-time and toll free.

"Under the opposition parties, there would either be no bridge or an extortionate toll bridge, repeating the disastrous mistakes of the PFI Skye Bridge."

Labour finance spokesman Andy Kerr said: "I never set much store by the Cuthberts' politically-motivated figures. The fact that figures have been plucked from the air should not be taken seriously."
19

McGubbligan,

Oz 13/01/2009 02:58:24
What would a labour finance spokesman know about finance?
They've squandered billions of pounds,dragged a resource rich Scotland into a recession and they still don't get it.
Labour finance spokesman andy kerr is certainly an expert at plucking figures out of the air. He's being doing it and getting away with it for years.
Let's compare his economic credentials with the Cuthberts'
Kerr,the rest of the tory/labour rabble and puppet master Thatcher-Brown are a disgrace to Scotland and the sooner they're gone the better.
More and more former labour voters are joining the SNP the REAL labour party in Scotland
20

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 03:58:20
Ewan Randall is full of.....questions.

I have one for you Ewan.

If Labour is now admitting what an absolute failure PFI has been, demanding that the Government buy out these failed schemes, why are they still arguing to fund the Forth Bridge through PFI?


21

,

13/01/2009 06:03:51
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13/01/2009 06:08:06
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23

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 06:30:20
Oh Dear.

It has just been reported that Salmond's cut price bridge will not be big enough to cope with the expected volume of traffic.

Well done the SNP.

24

Finnzz,

13/01/2009 06:36:33
What Labour appear to have forgotten was their reason for using PFI in the first place was to keep this expenditure off the books. This meant that they could continue with their normal government expenditure up to their 'Golden Rule' limit and then show how clever they were by providing capital projects without having to actually budget for them.

Well, the games now up as these projects have now to be declared. Which of course proves that when it comes to unbudgeted spending, Labour actually have no equal.
25

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13/01/2009 06:43:21
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26

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 06:45:26
I see Pound Land (Where Salmond gets his suits and Nicola gets her haircuts) has just announced good results.
27

Walter Ego,

Durness 13/01/2009 06:55:14
This will go down in history as Robison's shame. Well done Labour.
28

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 07:02:27
#27

They are rumoured to be a takeover target for Euro Land their continental competitor, since the two currencies are approaching parity.
29

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13/01/2009 07:07:58
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30

tartan army 2222,

13/01/2009 07:47:19
Rufus

What are your views on 'Brown's butler'? You've been awfy quiet on that front.

2 Wardog

Absolutely correct. Hypocrisy beyond belief. The vast majority of people also understand that the SNP would love to have done this but costs made it untenable.
31

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/01/2009 07:55:24
At least Labour have a sense of humour.

This can be safely ignored. It will never happen and Labour are to blame for introducing parking charges in the first place.

What would be far better would be to re-finance all PFI projects with public money, although, given Labour's ineptitude, this would no doubt cost too much.
32

brownlie,

13/01/2009 08:19:58
23 Union is Best

Don't be late for your morning briefing as you've missed the last two and Jackie was not best pleased.

They announced the result of the latest employee IQ test and, as expected, SM came in last - just behind Rufus. I did not realise that since SM joined monikers are made up from the combined IQ i.e. in his case 7 + 5 + 3 = 15. Hereafter Rufus will be known as Rufus542.

Surprisingly, in view of the company present (JB and GF) points were added for the consistent use of words like "fat" "obese" "immensity" "Natz" "got it?" etc so goodness knows what SM's score would have been otherwise. Points were also awarded for "saviour of the world", Glenrothes and "PFI/PPP".

Any mention of "postal votes, recession, depression, unemployment, freezing pensioners, starving children, Calman and banks" are to be avoided at all times.

Rufus is going to be off-message for a few days as he is covering for the Luton Village Idiot who's being interviewed for the post of Gordon's butler. I hear Dave Maddox has also applied in order to cut out the middleman.

Catch you later.
33

Alastair the First,

13/01/2009 08:36:17
So Labour set up a scheme where parking is charged for; then they oppose SNP plans to remove parking charges; and then they U turn and attempt to force a removal of said charges from areas where the opt-out costs are horrendous due to Labour's incompetence when they set up the schemes?

clearly this is simply Labour trying to be as awkward and destructive as possible. Tell you what, if they want to do this, let them fund it from their own party funds.

Labour = Crooks. Labour = Evil. Labour = Thick as a brick.
34

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 08:36:31
#27 Rufus
Your somewhat juvenile attempt at a put-down has all the panache of a discarded cigarette butt.
35

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 08:39:43
(#13) – (Edward) – Are you saying that due to cost buying the contracts out is no longer morally wrong?
Do you not think due to recession that all regions of the UK will be getting a reduced sum to budget with?
Some people think the Scottish Labour party do what the Westminster party tells them to do, so don’t you think it unlikely Westminster are going to say the Scottish Government would be wasting money with this idea?

Is it not true that those people who called the Labour party hypocrites on this issue, are hypocrites themselves, for now attacking the idea of ridding Scottish hospitals of these contracts after all this time attacking there introduction?
36

alanh,

ek 13/01/2009 08:42:22
their cheek and hypocrisy knows no bounds.

You introduced the charges. SNP removed them from most of the hospitals but cant from the PFI ones as it will cost too much. You say that it wont cost as much. OK give us a figure then?
But now super nu lie-bour, north brittian dept, have ridden to the rescue and will abolish them. Do they suggest what money should be used from our budget and what cuts they would impose to front line services to pay for it?
Maybe they could just add a wee bitty to the proposed toll on the new bridge to pay for it

They must think that the electorate have the memory of a goldfish
37

TWC,

13/01/2009 08:55:09
We should remove Parking charges but first of all we need to understand what fool allowed this to be possible in the first place.
Which ministers were responsible for these agreements, let's get it out in the open then we can all back Paul Martin.
It should not be unaffordable unless we really bought "a pig in a poke".
38

Guy Wersh,

Eccy Byde 13/01/2009 08:55:12
Free...Thinker:
Your Tinyurl is broken. Got an up to date one?

39

,

13/01/2009 08:59:09
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40

,

13/01/2009 09:04:35
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41

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:05:20

24. I see the YOUKAY has no intention of meeting it's Carbon Targetss
42

,

13/01/2009 09:06:17
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,

13/01/2009 09:08:35
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44

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:09:36


38. How much to buy our the four or so PFI Hospitals and where do you propose to take the money from?

Bear in mind that the scottish block Grant is already about to be reduced by £1BILLION over the next two years,?

It's fairly simple question.

You are advocating paying private companies PUBLIC MONEY, our taxes TWICE for the pleasure of parking at a hospital which we'll be paying for at 7..5% interest over the next 30 years........

Did you do maths at school son?

45

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:12:17


Hypocrits.

Was't rufus and co not all criticising the SNp over scrapping carpark fee's and giving away free stuff?

Unbelievable farce at the core of Labour.

PFI today, PFI gone tomorrow.

We do the hokey cockey.....

46

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 09:12:45
(#14) – (Wardog) – Do you enjoy using a condescending attitude when trying to talk people down?
Does it make you feel big?
Is this how you would like to continue to feel about your position?
Estimates on three hospitals have come to about fifty million, would you say that is a fair estimation or do you have a better one?
Where do you think the SNP got the money to cut car parking fees last time?
I think this is a good enough definition of PFI for you and any other person who is ignorant of it don’t you? - “The Private Finance Initiative (PFI ) was launched in 1992 to open up opportunities for more private sector involvement in the provision and modernisation of public services. PFI involves the public sector procuring services to the quality standards it requires, instead of procuring a capital asset or other equipment then operating it itself. In many ways PFI is similar to buying a house with a mortgage over, say, a twenty five year period. In the case of school PFI the school buildings become the property of the developer, the school pays for them by a unitary charge and in return gets a building to meet its future needs, along with maintenance and possible various other services.”
Don’t you believe only a fool would suggest this is a subject worthy of punching the air over?
47

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:13:24

47. Absolutely.

A Second Runway, More road building, Labour are on a rush to the abyss.

Anything to save themselves in power.


48

noswod,

Honestas 13/01/2009 09:16:04
MAir free stuff. Each day the SNP is gaining tae gee yee mair stuff free. The next day its Old Labour fronting up even mair free stuff. I dinny ken if I can take ony mair free stuff. My view is that ya canny hae onything free sibbodie has tae pay frae it. At the minute its that nice man frae Whiteha who gees me an extra £1,600 pounds a year over the rest O the UK's citizens that keeps a' this free stuff coming and then every week the Nats and old labour oot bid wananother wi mair free goodies. Why should I as a non taxpayer have to subsidise £2-£4bn quid frae a new bridge oor the Forth only frae the benefit O people in Fife and car drivers ? I want mair free stuff, free rent would be good. A'weel I am off on my free bus doon tae the betting office tae put on ma free bet, after I tak sim cash ooot my freely supported bank.
49

aljok.23,

the world 13/01/2009 09:19:01
Labour proposes. (in 1000 words)
50

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:19:30

50 UAN

To you Ewan yes, I feel it's the only way you'll learn to stop asking stupid questions.

It makes me feel normal, are you afraid of sarcasm?

I'm sitting down, what position are you in?

"...Where do you think the SNP got the money to cut car parking fees last time?...."

The SNP budgeted for it through efficiencies, they didn't have to pay off a privatefirm before doing this.

SHOCKING £50M BILL TO GET FREE CAR PARKING AT THREE PFI HOSPITALS

Is that £50M a year Ewan?

"...In many ways PFI is similar to buying a house....."

£800MILLION PFI REPAYMENT DEBT EACH AND EVERY YEAR

People buying things they can't afford at higher interest rates that they can sustain is the cause of the CREDIT CRUNCH you imbecile.......

PFI IS SIMILAR TO BUYING A HOUSE ON A CREDIT CARD



51

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 09:19:42
#38
“Is it not true that those people who called the Labour party hypocrites on this issue, are hypocrites themselves, for now attacking the idea of ridding Scottish hospitals of these contracts after all this time attacking there introduction?”

I nominate you for a prize for the most convoluted phrase of the morning.
52

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 09:21:11
(#15) – (Wardog) – Why should I know why Labour have waited until now, all I know is that it is morally right?
I think Labour is no better than any of the other parties don’t you?
53

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:21:35

53. "Why should I as a non taxpayer have to subsidise £2-£4bn quid frae a new bridge oor the Forth only frae the benefit O people in Fife'......"

Surely a new bridge is vital UK / Scottish economic driver

Are you suggesting that every business north of the forth tak a detour to haul their goods?

54

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:25:33

57. Ewan's Morality

Ewan, ofcoruse ALL hospital carparking should be free

However, at your estimated coast of £50M, to simply pay off the PFI Privateers, that's a price too dear for three hospitals, nevermind whether it's legally possible.....

It will require the opening up of PFI contracts, something which would allow the PFI privateers to re negotiate other rates.

The price could be well over £50MILLION.

Do you know for a fact whether these contract can be opened at all legally?

55

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 09:28:07
(#20) – (KampungHighlander) – Do you believe the building of a bridge to be on the same moral standing as the charging for parking cars at the hospitals?
56

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:28:23

57. Ewan

Is it morally right for all P1-3 pupils to get free meals

Is it morally right that people's taxation should ALL be based on an ability to pay?

Is it morally right that anyone should have pay for prescriptions?

Is it morally right that Student's should pay for their education?

57

,

13/01/2009 09:30:49
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58

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:31:00

60. A Bridge too Far.

The forth road bridge is a crucial economic artery for everyone living north of the forth.

It's not just for commuters, many goods and services currenty do and will come over this bridge.

Is it morally right that people living further away from the central belt should see their taxes subsidise their hospital parking but receive no subsidy to alleviate additional costs for goods and services?

Your a bit mixed up aren't you Ewan.

59

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:33:31


62. here here....... As Brown's rating start to sink again after a media flurry with no critical analysis of the damage he's down, normal politics will now resume.

Any guesses on the anticipated taxation levels in 2011.

Oooop's does that mean that Brown is taking 'money form future unwritten budgets".....

60

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13/01/2009 09:33:41
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61

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:37:21

65. No idea, I don't think he has either.

No-one can know how much it would cost because they don't know the outcome of negotiations.

It is very likely that the PFO Privateers who built the three projects would simply challenge this bill in the courts...... very messy.

Also very revealing as information on the deals comes to light aabout Labour's wasteful expenditure of public resource in the good old days when Brown was increasing the block grant like there was no tomorrow.

I don't think Labour have really thought this one through.





62

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:37:41

ooops PFI
63

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 09:37:42
#50 et al
Ewan Randall,
13/01/2009 09:12:45

This poster is so very obviously a Troll from Pravda Central with orders to disrupt the flow of the posts away from the very obvious hypocrisy of ZaNuLab re PPP and derivatives.

FFSake, they imposed the damn things on us and are asking us to bail out their mess and at the same time hoping to disrupt the procedure of the buget at Holyrood.

This might have worked before the days of the internet and blogs when they could control the diffusion of propganda aka political knowledge.

On yer bike Troll.

Everybody else, just ignore him, at least he is getting paid for this; probably by us.

It will end very soon.

They must think
64

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 09:38:35
we are absolutely thick !
65

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 09:39:37
(#48) – (Wardog) – You have such a way with words that how could I turn you down?

Are you against paying private companies public money?
Do you think this practice should no longer be in the governmental domain?

Then don’t you see paying off any PFI contract would bring you closer to that reality?

Do you call me son due to you seeing yourself as a father figure?
66

,

13/01/2009 09:42:34
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13/01/2009 09:43:29
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13/01/2009 09:45:49
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Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:47:18

"...Then don’t you see paying off any PFI contract would bring you closer to that reality?...."

You really don't get it do you.

This WON'T pay off any PFI debt......the privateers will simply shift it elsewhere in their contract during negotiations so that our overall pfi debt repayments stays the same or indeed increases ...........

Effectively we will have paid twice to get free car parking in three hospitals.

That isn't good value.

PFI isn't about morals Ewan, it's about PUBLIC money being wasted.

If your figure of £50MILLION is anywhere near the mark, I'd rather that it was spent on keeping council tax frozen (£70M) for another year.

"...Do you call me son due to you seeing yourself as a father figure?...."

You obviously didn't receive enough love when you were younger ........ son


70

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 09:47:58
Do you care where I got the fifty million from?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/09/03/victory-for-daily-record-campaign-as-snp-scrap-hospital-car-park-fees-86908-20722199/
71

Alan Reid,

NZ 13/01/2009 09:50:11
Unionist scum!
72

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:53:23

75. Ewan

£4.5MILLION each year to subsise 13 Hospitals Carparkiing

£50MILLION (each year?) to make 3 PFI Hospital carpark free of charges


Breathtaking


73

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 09:56:08


When do you think Paul Martin will be crossing the floor?

I think Glasgow East has awoken his conscious....... where was his dissent when he built these hospitals and carparks and when he signed these contracts?

What's Andy Kerr's take on his private members bill?

Will Labour support the bill?

74

Miss H,

13/01/2009 09:57:33
Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious.

What is interesting is that as a private members bill there will need to be some assessment of the costs involved in the Government buying out PFI contracts. So that will be interesting.

It gives the SNP the opportunity to have another pop at Labour's fondness for making private profit from public services. All thanks to Labour themselves.
75

Calum10,

13/01/2009 09:58:42
UTTER HYPOCRISY

Paul Martin voted for the PPP/PFI. His party, Labour, continue to support PPP/PFI.
76

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 09:59:00
Is this Labour's latest gift to these poor struggling PPP/PFI providers ?
If this bill gets through they will probably be able to name their price to buy out their contracts.
As we are not fully aware of the contents of the bill we might be misjudging him, if Mr Martin has included a "no compensation" clause then his belated effort is to be applauded.
77

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 10:04:00

81. "...a "no compensation" clause then his belated effort is to be applauded....."


I can't see that standing up in court.

But your right, this is going to help open up the festering PFI can of worms that's sitting in the kitchen cupboard John Smith House.

78

Miss H,

13/01/2009 10:04:03
8 Ewan - buying out the contracts would cost tens of millions of pounds which would be taken from the health budget.

The SNP has looked at it and decided that it couldn't be done without having a detrimental effect on services. Something else would have to be cut in order to pay for it.

Now if Labour want to take another position that is fine. If they want to identify the spending which they believe should be cut in order to buy out PFI contracts then that is what they should do and the parliament - and country - can debate it.

What I suspect they will do however is just to say that the Government should find the money from somewhere unspecified and, at the same time as they criticise the Government for not spending money on buying out PFI contracts, they will also continue to criticise them for not spending enough on the rest of the NHS as well.

Labour actually remind me of the SNP in the first year or so of devolution. I remember our MSPs in 99/2000 thought it was enough to just criticise the Executive without putting forward any alternatives but it isn't. We learned that lesson - I would have thought Labour would also have learned it but apparently not.
79

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 10:10:46
Meanwhile on Planet Earth.

Dave (boy) Cameron has announced that he is looking at reducing the number of MPs in Westmonster by 10% and making these new ones.

"I believe in having seats that are the same size all across the country,” Mr Cameron told the FT.

I don't know if that means the rural seats will geographically identical or, more probably, numerally.

This of course assumes that he will be the next (and hope last) UK Prime Minister and will have such a majority to carry this through.

Assuming he does both I would bet Rufus Barfly's apron that the loser would be Labour.


So we have the situation for us in Scotland that a Conservative Government could be able to engineer itself into a position that, if not impegnable, could be vert difficult to overturn.

Scotland, which could well vote null points to the Tories, would then be faced by another Tory colonial government in perpetuity unless.............
80

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 10:14:39
Mar 3 2008 by Madeleine Brindley, Western Mail
“CAR parking charges for patients, visitors and staff at all hospitals in Wales will start to be scrapped this year, the Assembly Government is due to announce today.
The Western Mail understands free parking will be introduced from April 1 – the first anniversary of free prescriptions in Wales – at all NHS trusts that do not have contracts with private contractors.”

The SNP policy appears to mirror that of the Labour-Plaid coalition Assembly Government in Wales.

I wonder why the Labourites wailing on here believe that this policy is fine for Wales but inappropriate for Scotland?
81

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 10:18:14

85. Bull wee alba

An excellent point bwa, again it shows just how rattled Labour are becoming over the whole PPP funding thing.. What are the bets that the Treasury comes to a quiet conclusion that PPP for the Forth Road bridge is a non starter politically in Scotland.......

The word on the street is that the left in Labour's Scottish ranks are starting to squirm under Ian Gray's union straightjacket approach and Jim Murphy's 'Master's whip'......

There may be trouble ahead.

82

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 10:21:12
It's a bit early for April 1st isn't it.

How kind of Labour to highlight for everyone the excessive charges/profits associated with PFI. That was nice of them. They seem to have forgotten it was their flagship policy, silly them.
83

subrosa,

13/01/2009 10:21:31
# 50

'In the case of school PFI the school buildings become the property of the developer, the school pays for them by a unitary charge and in return gets a building to meet its future needs, along with maintenance and possible various other services.”

If only this was true. There are 4 PFI schools in my area which are buildings which do NOT meet their future needs. Maintenance is a dirty word as admin staff spend more time chasing up the developers contractors (who never arrive) and if they should happen to appear, the costs are extortionate for the slightest repair.

Labour should have ensured these contracts were far more water tight and protected the users as much as the private contractors. PFI/PPP are labour's shame.
84

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 10:22:54


Just thinking about it, the headline here is incredibly misleading.

The action being taken is a private members bill.

No where in the piece does Ian Gray or any other high ranking Labour Politician give it there blessing.

You would have thought the basic questions for David Maddox to ask was, does the Labour PARTY support this action?

How much will it cost?




Unfortunately David more often than not is content to put into writing Labour Party wheezes.

85

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 10:27:47
This is a cynical attempt to overburden the Scottish government with unnecessary debt, as was the equally ridiculous decision regarding the Forth bridge. Labour politics of the playground.
86

,

13/01/2009 10:33:49
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Reason:
87

,

13/01/2009 10:34:59
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88

Ananurhing,

13/01/2009 10:53:51
Paul Martin MSP? Is he not off to westminster soon? Once his Daddy steps down. If we're still wasting our time with that quaint old outmoded custom!

Rank hypocrisy! From the party that introduced these charges. Round about the time they thought that installing Coca Cola vending machines in every school was a great way to improve schools.

Still not got to grips with opposition have they? Oppose your own party's policies? If only!

At least Martin has shown he has the qualities we expect of a westminster MP. Shallow, pointless, and self serving.
89

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 13/01/2009 11:06:37
You couldn't make this stuff up, Nulabour absolutly pathetic and devoid of any meaningfull policies. Lets all give another bung to the PFI parking Companies
90

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 11:31:10
In proposing this Bill, Mr. Martin and the Labour Party in Scotland, must be relying on the short memories and complete lack of intellect on the part of its supporters?

A brass neck, of course, is the prerequisite to becoming a politician.
91

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 11:34:22
31 tartan army 2222,13/01/2009 07:47:19
Rufus
What are your views on 'Brown's butler'? You've been awfy quiet on that front.
=====================================================
I think its a great idea.
Everybody should have one.
Gives some one a job too.
92

brownlie,

13/01/2009 11:36:51
96 Mr Lachie Todd

Good point, Mr Todd, we unionists have always relied on this and it has served us well in the past! Aye, lad, where there's muck there's brass!
93

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 11:40:36
58 Wardog™,for £2 Billion, we could fill in the Firth of Forth and build a motorway and a couple of power stations on it.

That would provide a huge economic benefit to the people of Scotland.
94

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 11:45:56

99. Your having real trouble with this 'future' budget thing aren't you.

Nuclear Power Station costs £2BILLION to last 30 years, plus £10BILLION to clean upup for the following 120 years.

Compared to a 60year Bridge which along with reuse of the existing will bhelp reduce carbon emissions, promote sustainable travel and allow a better circulation of HVL's up and down from the ports alone the North East Coast......

There's a few industries that are quite important to scotland up there.

Oil, Whisky and Fishing to name but three





95

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 11:52:33
(#55) – (Wardog) – What in your opinion makes a stupid question?

Why did you believe you had to descend to my level have you got yourself a god complex?

You believe the act of making yourself feel big is normal?

Is there a reason why I should be afraid of sarcasm, or you?

Do you think a person should raise an eyebrow when in a position to deal with sarcasm?



Aren’t efficiencies political speak for cuts when prioritising resources?
If the SNP didn’t need to pay off a private firm before they made the efficiencies why was it they weren’t able to budget sufficiently to pay off all of the PFI hospital car park contracts, had they already overstretched themselves?


An interesting term “imbecile”, why do you say “People buying things they can't afford at higher interest rates that they can sustain is the cause of the CREDIT CRUNCH”? – The credit crunch, as most people know it, is due to credit being given out to those people who didn’t have collateral or the right amount of collateral to back them up for getting credit. The passing on of this debt is the reason the crunch has been passed on with devastating results. Is that tidy enough for you to understand?
96

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 11:53:35


99. PS Interesting to see you advocating spending Publci Money on Power Stataions, is this New Labour Policy? - Have you told the public about it?

I think the official line is that private companies will pay for the new nuclear stations AND their cleanup.

Another fine mess from Brown + Co

Meanwhile Salmond secured over £1BILLION of private investment in renewables for Scotland., last year alone....


97

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 11:56:29
(#56) – (bully wee alba) – What about it do you consider to be convoluted?
98

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 11:57:36

101 Rhetorical UAN raises his eyebrows in a faceoff.

"...Aren’t efficiencies political speak for cuts when prioritising resources?..."

£4.5MILLION in efficiencies to pay for free carparking at 13 hospitals up and down the country.

Your are advocating over £50MILLION in CUTS to get free parking at three hospitals out of misguided anxiety and guilt after supporting PFI.




£4.5MILLIOn for 13 Hospitals v £50MILLION for 3 Hospitals

It's pretty damming isn't it Ewen?




"...is due to credit being given out to those people who didn’t have collateral...."

Thanks for agreeing with me.


Imbecile



99

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:01:07


103. Comrade Smee

Smee, you never did tell us which party you supprot or think is doing a sterling job in opposition.

Are you a troy smee..... c'mon don't be shy about it.

Let your inner tory boy come out into the open smee.

It's time to come out of the closet




100

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:02:35

106. Smee


What revenue?

Oh did I forget to mention shortage of fuel estimated at £120BILLION, silly me.




Are you advocating paying for these from 'future' budgets Smee?


101

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:05:12


106. Amazing that Smee expects these nuclear companies to be around for 60 years. and never require state subsidy........ amazing doesn't do it justice infact.

It;s fanciful, ain't never happened yet, ANYWHERE.

Brown's nuclear wheeze is just another form of PFI to make us pay over the odds for electricity into the future.


102

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:08:03

111smee


Oh you mean, private profits?

Yes, well.....I can see the companies doing that Smee.....

Amazing that you have such optimism for technologies that could kill us all.

103

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 12:08:08
(#59) – (Wardog) – Do you believe it was morally acceptable to leave three hospitals with fee paying car parking, do the people using those hospitals have no better things to occupy their minds?
Do you know that the contracts can’t be opened without problem?
104

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:12:43

Smee Gassing off

Since May 2007 this Scottish Government has green lighted, 13 of renewables projects over 50MW. Over the course of the previous four years (2003-7) 19 renewable projects were determined, 17 of which were consented.

Current installed renewables capacity in Scotland totals 2.8 Gigawatts.

Installed nuclear capacity is 2090 MW .

Approval of the Clyde windfarm means that the total installed capacity either built or consented and under construction is now 5.5GW.

The Scottish Government's Energy Consents Unit is currently processing 36 renewable project applications - 26 wind farm, nine hydro and one wave project, which equates to 2.5 Gigawatts (GW) of electricity.



Smee, your pisssing into the wind (and tide) my friend
105

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:15:24

116. Do you believe that it';s morally acceptable to cut services to ensure that Private Firms receive monies borrow from them by the previous executive?

"...Do you know that the contracts can’t be opened without problem?..."

Have you ever seen a PFI Contract and it's accompanying clauses?

No I didn't think so.

Think about the precedent that this would set for ALL PFI projects through the UK?

Labour have opened up an almighty row on this which will be brought into sharper focus in April. when these debts and contract conditions are 'on book'


106

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:16:38

118 Smee

Eh, can you check to see what level of Government subsidy ALL of these companies has received to stay in business over their 'life spans'?

First Set Wardog

107

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 12:18:21
(#61) – (Wardog) – Do these things not being morally right stop other things which are not morally right from being changed?
108

Grahamski',

13/01/2009 12:19:33

God I need a Labour MSP badly.

I spit

109

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 12:20:14
122 And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?
110

Miss H,

13/01/2009 12:20:47
116 It's not a question of contracts being 'opened' so much as cancelled. Most PFI contracts are for 30 years and have been in effect for what? Five years? It is standard practice to have a cancellation clause in contracts like that requiring compensation if the contract is cancelled. Nicola Sturgeon has said it would cost 'tens of millions of pounds' to do that. Her judgement is that it is money the NHS cannot afford. If Labour thinks it can be afforded it is up to them to set out how.
111

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:22:21

122. £50MILLION for 3 Hospitals

You can't escape facts Ewan, PFI has been an utter and complete failure and future generations are going to suffer for Brown's short term excess and credit gluttony.

The debt over each new born baby is growing by the hour.


112

Grahamski',

13/01/2009 12:22:59

122. Ewan Randall

You'll do, unzip me!

113

Grahamski',

13/01/2009 12:23:42


unzip me now!
114

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:25:16

125. Miss H

Absolutely MissH, god knows what the cancellation of the whole contract would cost and what precedent this would set in Scotland.

Labour are waking up to the mess they have created.

115

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:25:49

Grahamski

I see that the lunatic fringe have arrived.
116

Grahamski',

13/01/2009 12:26:09

gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble
117

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:38:33

132. Smee refuses to comment on public subsidy of nuclear, he's clearly in denial about the companies that he listed.... like his support for PFI, taxation on sickness and local taxation base don the size of the house your living in and not the services that you use, Smee finds himself supporting the inequities of the world.....

bad luck or is he just a born loser?

Secured infrastructure development. Smee, you arguments seem to swing on interpretations of wee word which in time your always proven to have misunderstood. Try learning from your mistakes.

Are you saying that the Scottish Government won't meet there 2011 renewables target?




You do not appear to understand the difference between capacity and energy. .

You do know what the national grid is don't you smee.

Can you tell us how much nuclear energy was produced last year?





118

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 12:39:00
#60 Ewan?

" Do you believe the building of a bridge to be on the same moral standing as the charging for parking cars at the hospitals?"

I does if you have to cross the bridge to get to the hospital.

There Ewen, one of your myriad of questions answered. Are you a failed Jeopardy contest who can't say anything unless its framed as a question? Is that what they are treating you for at the hospital?

You don't have to answer, they where retorical, like all your questions.

But maybe you could answer my earlier question at #20

"If Labour is now admitting what an absolute failure PFI has been, demanding that the Government buy out these failed schemes, why are they still arguing to fund the Forth Bridge through PFI?"
119

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 12:46:05
From the Scotsman 24/10/07

“NHS Lothian has been ordered to hand over details of the controversial £1.2 billion private finance deal to build and run Edinburgh Royal Infirmary.
Scotland's information commissioner Kevin Dunion has ruled the health board was wrong to refuse a freedom of information request for a copy of its contract with PFI operator Consort.

NHS Lothian pays Consort for the construction costs and service s such as catering, cleaning, maintenance and security at the Little France hospital. The ERI, which opened in 2002, cost £183 million to build, but Consort will have earned around £1.26bn from the public purse by the time the deal runs out in 2031.”



Roll on the direct elections of the Health Boards, therefore making the individuals responsible for this sort of squandering of public resources accountable for their profligacy.
120

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:47:17

smee

"...Approval of the Clyde windfarm means that the total installed capacity either built or consented and under construction is now 5.5GW.....:"

Ah, consents again. Not "secured".

Are you saying that the £600MILLIOn Clyde Win Famr isn't under construction?




Smee, you didn't listen to my advice and pee'd right into the force 9, it's all over your brown woollen tanktop and crimson chords.

Set 2 to Wardog, Smee steps up to the oche, cringeworthy unionist to throw.


121

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:49:03


137. Brilliant, the PFI Ivory Tower is crumbling.

Brown is about to enter the worst 12 months he has ever known....

Smee is clearly rattled by the speed of the Prime Minister descent from being 'saviour' to ' villain'


122

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:52:14


smeee....

"...At present, the largest wind farm in Scotland is currently being built on Eaglesham Moor to the south of Glasgow...."

SECURED.

123

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:54:21

smee

Wardog throws to clinch this match, he need to check out from 62.

Double 20
Double 11

2011...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In the end smee, lies will only serve to diminish your case for the union.

124

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 12:56:19

game set match

I'm away for lunch smee, don't you dare come out from behind that sofa whilst I'm gone.....


125

brownlie,

13/01/2009 12:58:23


Fans of Gordon

Off topic, there's an "exclusive" article in the Sun where Gordon reveals his plans of Britain under Brown and America under Obama solving the "world's woes".

There is no comment from Obama.

Sm753 - you must be ever-so-proud!!
126

,

13/01/2009 13:09:21
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127

,

13/01/2009 13:12:17
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128

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13/01/2009 13:15:16
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129

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 13:34:39
100 Wardog™,13/01/2009 11:45:56

99. Your having real trouble with this 'future' budget thing aren't you.
Nuclear Power Station costs £2BILLION to last 30 years, plus £10BILLION to clean upup for the following 120 years.
=====================================================

I never mentioned ANYTHING about nuclear power stations so what on earth are you talking about man?
130

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 13:35:31
100 Wardog™,13/01/2009 11:45:56

99. Your having real trouble with this 'future' budget thing aren't you.
Nuclear Power Station costs £2BILLION to last 30 years, plus £10BILLION to clean upup for the following 120 years.
=====================================================

Anyway this could be paid for using 'Good Old Fashioned Public Procurement'.
131

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 13:40:20
(#68) – (Faux Cul) – Well haven’t you got the narrowest mind?
What makes you think I follow Labour?
Maybe I have a dislike for shortbread type nationalism, which is no substitute for the real thing, what do you think?
Isn’t it right that the SNP campaign before the last election successful branded it a mess?
Isn’t it right that as long as the payments are going in there is no actual mess?
Is not the Labour party only trying to respond to the spin the SNP have put on the issue?
132

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 13:43:28
134 Jackie Priest,13/01/2009 12:38:21
#133

I'm not British, pal, so stuff you.
====================================================

Not what your passport says Judith.
133

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 13:52:30
150 what spin ? It was a policy that was largely delivered, but can't be wholly delivered because of the penalty clauses contained within the PFI agreement(s) that Labour locked us into. That's not spin.

That Paul Martin seems to have gone rogue and highlighted the issue is not Labour's response to it, in my view, I think it is just his. I'm not sure but I think the Glasgow RI may be in his constituency.
134

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 13:57:14
SM753 has to be AM2 and not even in disguise.

His delusions about conjoining Litvinenko and fish sales to Russia betray a hunted personality living in nether world of spies, spooks and funny Channel 5 gadgets.

I BET HE REALLY BELIEVES IT ALL AND FANTASISES ABOUT BEING IN MI5 or 6 OR SUMMAT.

Sad really that this is the mouthpiece of Unionism. Wonder if the situation arose, he would denounce some of us to the authorities, Stasi style?

Brown is still mad and needs to be sectioned, pronto.
135

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 13:59:31
149 sm753 I think you are confusion capacity with the actual output, thermal power stations require a statutory outage, for nuclear it usually 2-3 years. They are also not producing power 24/7 depends on grid demand and wholesale price.

Gas turbines are quick to fire up, second is coal and last is nuclear, this usually takes 2-3 days to bring on line.
136

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:00:50
154 The plutonium required will come from the UK's nuclear stations, did I not read that AWE has been sold to an American engineering company?
137

brownlie,

13/01/2009 14:02:33
150 Ewan Randall

Ewan, what is "short-bread nationalism" and who do you see advocating it, on this board or elsewhere?
138

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:12:26
SM753 Torness has a expected life span of 40-45 years.

AGR are a UK design and although are thermally more efficient than PWR are more complex and more costly in maintenance and service costs.

Again you have to look at what the actually power output from the stations will be, they are decreasing as the family of UK AGR's are ageing and doing so quickly.

So over the remainder they will produce less, simply because as I stated AGR's are more complex and more difficult to maintain and will require more maintenance as the fleet get older.
139

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:13:20
156 to clarify the outage is every 2-3 years.
140

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 14:20:01
158 Jackie Priest,13/01/2009 14:02:13
#152

My passport isn't me.
========================================
Very astute.

However, to get a British Passport you must be either a;

British citizen, or a
British dependent territories citizen, or a
British overseas citizen or a
British subject, or a
British national, or a
British protected person.

So I guess you must be British.

Rule Britannia Judith.
141

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:25:37
SM753 I think BE's output was down in 2008 from 13twh the previous year to 9.5twh
142

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:37:31
149 SM753 Construction is scheduled to begin this year the link you provided only has information for the year ended and not the current one.
143

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13/01/2009 14:42:29
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144

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:45:27
166 I think you still are, on what basis are you performing your calculation of 85%?

The current fleet is providing less output with every passing year.

We are not building any new nuclear that I am aware off. I've heard the current UK government talk about wants and needs but nothing concrete no construction has started.

I don't recall anybody arguing that a single renewable project will replace a thermal station that is why there plans in place for the capacity for renewables spread over the country.

145

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 14:55:40
Anti-English attack in Aberdeen.

A young woman was left with serious facial injuries after an allegedly anti-English attack in Aberdeen.

Lucy Newman, 22, of Gourdon, near Inverbervie, was attacked close to the Trinity Centre on Union Street in the early hours of Saturday.

She told BBC Scotland a man made racial remarks relating to her English accent before punching her in the face.

What a disgrace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/7826264.stm
146

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 14:58:48
171 Indeed it is and this person responsible should be held accountable, and Rufus are you trying to claim this crime was instigated because of civic nationalism.
147

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 15:01:06
SM753 the figures I quoted were for Q1 in 2008, here is the link to BE

http://www.british-energy.com/pagetemplate.php?pid=210
148

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:02:28
Tormod, no, but I am highlighting the Anti-English sentiment that seems to prevail in so many communities north of the border and which regularly manifests itself on this forum.
149

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:07:46
What anti-english sentiment Rufus, because I don't see any. Or is that just rule number 4 in the big book of trolls.
150

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:09:46
175 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:07:46
What anti-english sentiment Rufus, because I don't see any. Or is that just rule number 4 in the big book of trolls.
======================================================
What is the point in me cutting and pasting it?

All you turn round and say is........either..........

Saving old posts, How sad

or

Searching for old posts, How sad.

You know it happens so stop being so disingenuous.
151

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:11:18
Rufus being pro-Scottish doesn't mean you are anti-English. How sad you don't seem to understand that.
152

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 15:12:28
Rufus Anti-something exists in all parts of the world, what folk are generally angry is that Scotland is seemed by many as not being a country in it's own right, With the right of self determination.

The only anti I've read on these threads is towards an establishment and political mindset, that is also shared by folk from the North of England towards the conurbation of London.

You have experienced London, I have experienced Africans being very anti other african nations, they same goes for Indians and Pakistanis about each other, especially about cricket.
153

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:14:02
There is a huge difference between being against the British state in the form of Westminster, and being anti-English. The two are not the same.
154

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:15:43
177 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:11:18
Rufus being pro-Scottish doesn't mean you are anti-English. How sad you don't seem to understand that.
====================================================
Rememmber Alex Salmond posing with a giant picture of Maradona's hand ball goal against England last November?

Was that Pro-Scottish or Anti-English?
155

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 15:16:17
179 Indeed and this is either not understood or worse is used by parts of unionism that cannot and will not stand for debate about Scotland's self determination.
156

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:17:56
178 Tormod,Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 15:12:28
Rufus Anti-something exists in all parts of the world, what folk are generally angry is that Scotland is seemed by many as not being a country in it's own right, With the right of self determination.
==================================================

If a majority of people want independence then they will get it.

Up until now only a minority have wanted it.

C'est La Vie.
157

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:19:15
149. smee

oh stop it smee, whacking you from pillar to post isn't fun anymore.

I know that your crying inside

SECURED

http://www.scottish-southern.co.uk/SSEInternet/index.aspx?id=14666&TierSlicer1_TSMenuTargetID=1364&TierSlicer1_TSMenuTargetType=1&TierSlicer1_TSMenuID=6

Scottish & Southern Energy have started work on the Clye Windfarm, the Eaglesham one is already well underway, not only that S&S have acquired a big chunk of Irelands Wind Generation market through acquiring airticity.....

You still don;'t seem to understand the difference between energy production and the way the grid works.

To help you out, last year Nuclear power in Scotland flat lined , only producing 8% of Scotland's needs against a growing renewables base. Funnily enough, Electricity generated in Scotland increased by nine per cent.

"....Even with statutory outages, breakdowns, and maintenance a modern thermal (coal, gas or nuclear) station SHOULD be able to hit a capacity factor of 85%......"

(can anyone spot Smee's get ut clause word?)

As a result of unplanned outages, nuclear's share of generation fell from 38 per cent to 26 per cent in Scotland.

In 2005, Scotland exported 15 per cent of the electricity generated to consumers elsewhere in the UK, but this rose to 20 per cent in 2006

CHP is the future Smee, no-one wants nuclear and it's dirty little secret, radioactivity.

Now stop your tantrums and away with you.
158

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:22:04
The NatZ position is that they don't want union with England but will accept union with other european nations.

Strange.

Why is that?

Racism, prejudice and bigotry lie at the heart of the nationalist argument.
159

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:22:09
180 that was a laugh Rufus. Lighten up.
160

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:23:33
184 the only bigotry I can see is yours. Now enough.
161

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:24:04
We couldn't survive alone as a country, the recent economic events have proved that beyond doubt. Either the English taxpayer financially subsidises Scotland or we become subsidy junkies of the EU where we have no say whatsoever.

Take your pick.
162

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:25:04
185 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:22:09
180 that was a laugh Rufus. Lighten up.
==============================================

No it wasn't.
163

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:25:16
187 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
164

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:25:20

180. FFS Rufus

Get over yourself will you.

Yes, the assault in aberdeen is a disgrace whether it was motivated by her accent or otherwise.

Your comment re: maradonna is ludicrous but I think you already know that.






165

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:26:09
187. Rufus, not so much as yesterday you agreed with me that the issue wasn't the financial viability of Scotland which you agreed was beyond doubt.

What gives?
166

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:28:55
182.

"...If a majority of people want independence then they will get it....."

Well, the majority voted of people voted for the SNP in May 2007, can we get it?

oh Is ee, it has to be by your rules

sorry
167

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:31:33


The Outcome for the vote on Independence May 2007

SNP 1st
Popular vote 664,227 (constituency)
633,401 (regional)

Labour 2nd
648,374 (constituency)
595,415 (regional)

Percentage

SNP 1st
32.9% (constituency)
31.0% (regional)

Labour 2nd
32.2% (constituency)
29.2% (regional)



I think those for independence might have just nosed it...

168

Miss H,

13/01/2009 15:32:28
187 Is that a wind up?
169

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:33:52
193, Wardog

Great stuff. You're contribution to this thread has been mind blowing. Keep it coming.
170

brownlie,

13/01/2009 15:34:03
182 Rufus521

Is it not anti-English to use a French expression instead of a perfectly good English expression?

184 Rufus521

Is it not a form of bigotry to describe Nationalist as Natz?
171

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:36:07
190 Wardog™,13/01/2009 15:25:20
Your comment re: maradonna is ludicrous but I think you already know that.
========================================================

No the fact that we have a petty, small minded First Minister that would pose with a Maradona Handball Goal against England is what is ludicrous.
172

,

13/01/2009 15:36:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
173

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:36:55

195. Your praise is best directed at your friend smee.

He needs friends around him at this time of loss....

Loss of dignity.....

174

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:37:05
197 brownlie,13/01/2009 15:34:03
182 Rufus521
Is it not a form of bigotry to describe Nationalist as Natz?
=================================================
Clearly Not.
175

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:38:17
200 Wardog™,13/01/2009 15:36:55

195. Your praise is best directed at your friend smee.
He needs friends around him at this time of loss....
Loss of dignity.....
==================================================
Only in your dreams.

He has been tying you in knots for weeks now.
176

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:39:53
199 Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,Lochindorb 13/01/2009 15:36:33
My wife is English. My politics are Scottish Independence. I wish Scotland to have a democratically elected government that the people of Scotland can elect and remove by their votes. A Government that has total control to raise and lower taxes as per requirements. A government that does not grandstand around the world fostering resentment and talking down to people.
====================================================

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You neglected to tell us your shoe size and star sign.
177

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 15:40:44
Rufus you are the small petty minded bigot here, not anyone else. Catch a grip.
178

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:41:00

202. Surely your mistaken old fruit.

Smee is rattled beyond belief, he's shaking like a broken man. walking the edge.

Resorting to humourless spiteful indignation.

Smee has lost I'm afraid, have you seen his rather threadbare blog, the man is a lonely soul looking for some unionist comrade.

I think you could offer him your ample bosom.

179

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 15:42:13
This is the first sensible suggestion stupid labour have made since the 1997. Or course, they should never have introduced their stupid anti-car measure in the first place but I suppose at least they are finally seeking to put matters right.

Let's just hope that the other parties don't oppose it just for the sake of doing so.
180

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:46:14
If someone was a true nationalist then they would want independence even if it meant a decline in living standards.

A zealot would accept a drastic decline in living standards.

Economic considerations are only of secondary significance in most (if not all) secessionist movements around the world. These nearly always revolve around fundamental differences in culture and/or language and/or ethnicity.

De Valera in fact took a perverse pride in the RoI being very much poorer than the UK - it suited his purpose to have a southern Ireland which was orientated towards agriculture rather than industry.


Since WWII and arguably before, the economy has been the chief battleground between Labour and Conservative in the UK. Due to the collapse of the Tories in Scotland, the economy has become the battleground between the SNP and Labour.

In contrast with the performance of Labour and the Conservative parties - which we at least know something from due to past experience - we are completely in the dark about how successful Scotland would be following independence. There are no guarantees - things could start off badly and improve - or get very much worse. Or vice versa. Much is in the hands of the Scottish people.

It is in the SNP's interest to pretend that there are 'guarantees'. Of course, there cannot be. An independent Scotland would be forced to make itself attractive to investors by slashing tax - particularly business tax - but this would impinge on our public sector. A post-independence Scotland then already faces a huge decision as to whether it takes the line Salmond is suggesting (in contrast to his stance as a left-winger throughout most of his political career) or it chooses a much more familiar 'Old Labour' approach. I suspect I know which will prevail.

Regardless, Salmond has said that he will keep sterling - this means that our interest rates will be decided in London. Geographical/economic momentum means that it will be exceptionally difficu
181

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:47:04
(cont)

Regardless, Salmond has said that he will keep sterling - this means that our interest rates will be decided in London. Geographical/economic momentum means that it will be exceptionally difficult for any modern-day government to challenge global market forces. Our room for manouevre is much more limited than we are led to believe.

But it's up for people to decide. We benefit more than the English from the NHS and we have a relatively old and unhealthy population which will increase demands on pensions too. Will an economic turnaround really handle all such problems, as well as compensating for public sector jobs lost after independence?

The bottom line for me is that I have simply no faith whatsoever in our political-media system. Holyrood has been an embarrassment and, in a week when the worldwide financial system was in utter turmoil with possibly grave repercussions, BBC Scotland TV news bulletins ran with the 'Famine Song' as its lead story on two days from five.

This is the sort of thing that made me lose confidence in Scotland.

We certainly 'had it' - a long time ago. But I'm sorry to say we've lost it.
182

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 15:47:46
(oh and the Hokey Cokey)
183

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 15:54:16
(#83) – (Miss H) – Do you believe all of the money the Scottish Government has to play with comes from the budget allocation for the health service?
184

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:54:57

207. Roofuss

Well done rufus for finally setting out your stall, smee could do well to learn from you.

Whilst I disagree with some of your points, your basically saying that an independent Scotland would have big decisions to make.....

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD

I understand you point regarding BBC, but isn't this as a result of the London centric media base, i.e. is northern ireland, wales, or indeed the regions of England any better served when resources are stripped down to feed the global media village of London?

What's rather heartening through rufus, is that you did once have faith in these things.

That means you can be convinced if the evidence is laid in front of you.

Try to see the potential in Scotland, from green energy exportation through to a self sufficient small country fully engaging with Europe, having arguments and making friends on equal terms.

Imagine no more fights about funding, about people taking responsibility, and yes MAKING DECISIONS that affect the type of future for our children so that Scotland's NHS can thrive the way we want it to whilst we spend less on nuclear and national defence perhaps?

Rufus, I'm waiting otuside on the freedom bus, the engine is running, we can't wait forever you know..... start asking yourself the questions..... I think you know the answers.




185

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 15:55:53
201. Ewan - Just tell us where you'd like to see the £50M come from?
186

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 15:56:13
(#84) – (Faux Cul) – Don’t you think this should be opposed very vigorously?
Wouldn’t this reduce the number of seats and power the SNP has at this time?
187

brownlie,

13/01/2009 16:00:39
201 Rufus521

"Clearly not"? How so?
188

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:01:49
"......we accept the conclusions of the Independent Expert Group: there are trade offs between the principles of equity, efficiency and accountability, but this balance should be determined by the constitutional objectives the funding system is designed to support. We will examine these trade offs, and the main funding mechanisms – assignment of tax revenues; devolution of taxes and block grant – in the next phase of our work, with further input from the Independent Expert Group. Full fiscal autonomy is inconsistent with the Union and we do not consider it further......"

Calman before Christmas


What they are basically saying is that Scotland, even as part of a Federal System (which incidentally they say isn't possible) could never control 100% of it's revenues.....

Anyone who has ever flirted with a more liberal union setup, maybe a confederation or federal system should be alarmed at Calman's statements.

Without very much evidence at all, he has narrowed the field.

This isn't a conversation, this is a fix.



189

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 16:04:25
199 I heard violins playing in the background there as you described how we once had it, but have now lost it. Boo hoo.

Try again Rufus - that was pathetic.
190

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:04:35
176 "...The NatZ position is that they don't want union with England but will accept union with other European nations....."

The Unionist parties position is that they don't want an independent Scotland but want the UK to remain as independent as possible within the EU.

191

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:07:13


209. Waco Texas springs to mind

192

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:08:37

207. Oh don;'t be so hard on old rufus observer., it's becoming clear that Rufus's bitterness is very brittle indeed.

That he once believed in Scotland tells us that he can again.

I haven't lost faith in you rufus, you can be brought back......

Like Darth, I feel the good in you.

193

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:15:34

212. Aye, the poor wee souls are soon going to run out of telephone book names

Remember March/May 2007, the number of 'Anne fae Renfrew' that appeared to spread utter lies about £5000 tax.

We can see the issue when Labour bus up supporters from the North of England to carry out leafleting in Scottish Seats, it's patently obviosu that a number of these polticial students / career chaser are employed to troll on these types of sites.
194

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 16:19:54
212 Ewan's ''shortbread type nationalism'' definitely gives his (unionist) hand away. I wonder how they pick their names.
195

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 16:34:44

214. I expect it involves an elaborate ceremony involving complimentary copy of the Troll's handbook, a DVD of Truth, Lies and North Sea Oil, a copy of various key UK Government Coverups and an ipod with 'Land of Hope & Glory' on it.


196

Alastair the First,

13/01/2009 16:38:38
179 Rufus: "We couldn't survive alone as a country, the recent economic events have proved that beyond doubt. Either the English taxpayer financially subsidises Scotland or we become subsidy junkies of the EU where we have no say whatsoever."


What a load of pathetic piffle. How can we in Scotland manage to be the only nation in the world that is, according to you, unable to survive and support ourselves? Utter drivel. You really do have a low opinion of the rest of us Scots, don't you?
197

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 16:42:21
Yes sm753 Once again Judith has scuppered the numbers.

Its probably deliberate mind you.
198

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 16:44:41
Yet again the numbers are all over the place. Who's been banned this time?
199

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 16:46:52
Oops sorry. I've just caught up.
200

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 16:49:16
213 Wardog™,13/01/2009 16:15:34

We can see the issue when Labour bus up supporters from the North of England to carry out leafleting in Scottish Seats,
======================================================
Or alternatively Labour bus up supporters from other parts of Britain to carry out leafleting in British seats.
201

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 16:49:53
222 Hugh Roscombe,13/01/2009 16:46:52
Oops sorry. I've just caught up.
===========================================
You coming back here in 8 days time Hugh?
202

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 16:51:06
SM753 you still seemed confused about capacity and actual output how did you get to the 85% figure?

And the link you gave was only for 2008 for the wind farms.
203

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 16:52:57
215 and large, baggy, Union Jack underpants. Don't forget them.
204

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 16:54:41
SM753 did you not write that the nuclear power stations would be operating for 60 years to provide income for a decomm fund?

I find that strange because you also wrote that torness would be hard pushed to make it to 45 years of operation.
205

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 17:00:32
227 I forgot about that, I was reading that on the train on my blackberry and thought I am sure the word People is used quite a lot in the Declaration.

Also does the Magna Carta contain mostly a contract between a king and his barons and king most abide by his decisions and the declaration of Arbroath is about Scotland as independent kingdom and contains elements of a social contract on popular sovereignty between a king and his PEOPLE.
206

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 17:02:25
Why are you discussing wind farms? Farms under construction are:-

Liniclate Wind Farm (Western Isles) - October 2008

Long Park (Scottish Borders) - October 2008

Millennium (Glenmoriston) extension (Highland) - October 2008

Crystal Rig 2a (aka Ila Project) Scottish Borders - August 2008

Aikengall (East Lothian)

Beinn an Tuirc Extension (Argyll & Bute) - September 2008

Crystal Rig 2 (extension) Scottish Borders - August 2008

Dun Law extension (Scottish Borders) - January 2008

Edinbane (Highland) - January 2008

Solway Firth/Robin Rigg A (Dumfries & Galloway) - December 2006

Above Rigg B December 2006

Whitelee, Eaglesham Moor East Renfrewshire - October 2006

Tangy Extension Argyll & Bute - January 2006

Ardkinglass/Clachan Flats Argyll & Bute - October 2005


Total MW - 30.8
207

Miss H,

13/01/2009 17:03:12
201 No of course it doesn't but the health budget covers health spending.
208

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 17:03:45
Rufus

Nine days to go. Any chance of a lift?
209

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 17:06:13
My favourite bit "Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."
210

Miss H,

13/01/2009 17:11:14
198 That is just nonsense. The SNP has never pretended that there are any guarantees of anything.

The position is very straightforward. The SNP wants the Scottish Parliament to have the same decision making powers as every other parliament - the same powers that our competitors have.

We believe Scotland can be a competitive, prosperous and aspirational small nation. We believe in the talent and ingenuity of Scotland’s people and our ability to participate successfully in the world market.

There are no guarantees of course - just as there are no guarantees about what will happen if we stay in the Union. A lot of what happens is down to international events and circumstances over which we have no control whether as an independent country or as part of the UK.

But we believe that we will be better placed to respond to events and capitalise on our advantages if we have the same powers as every other country in the EU. Not having those powers puts us at a disadvantage.
211

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:12:15
233 Hugh Roscombe,13/01/2009 17:03:45
Rufus

Nine days to go. Any chance of a lift?
======================================
If I could, I would and all that.

How long you coming over for and where are you staying?
212

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:13:20
235 Miss H,13/01/2009 17:11:14
But we believe that we will be better placed to respond to events and capitalise on our advantages if we have the same powers as every other country in the EU. Not having those powers puts us at a disadvantage.
=======================================================

It could be true.
213

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 17:15:19
Rufus


"How long you coming over for and where are you staying?"

Over for about a month. For the 2nd part of your question - none of your business.
214

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:20:18
238 Hugh Roscombe,13/01/2009 17:15:19
Rufus
"How long you coming over for and where are you staying?"Over for about a month. For the 2nd part of your question - none of your business.
===========================================
I suppose my first question was none of my business either.
215

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:22:07
239 Fur foulkes sake,13/01/2009 17:18:00
#230 & #234

Exactly Tormod.

If you are Scottish you would know what the Declaration said, if you weren’t Scottish you wouldn’t.
===================================================

Ha Ha

Yeah Right.
216

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 17:24:12
239 Bang on my friend SM753 has used the term nationalist cringe quite a lot, We should all feel proud of the Declaration.

The Magna Carter is important in it's own right, however sm753 couldn't help put it's importance above the declaration.

Maybe he is ashamed it contains such strong words of self determination and Scottish resolve and purpose.
217

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/01/2009 17:33:15
242 Rufus yesterday I used the grown up to describe unionist politicians for there pathological refusal to accept that Scots of whatever political hue deserve to be treated as Adults and not have there intelligence insulted.

You read it as I was asking you to be a grown up, what happened from yesterday as I thought your posts at the end of the thread were the most articulate I've read what happened today?
218

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 17:36:52

220 Smee


Changing the rules again.

Your point was that you refused to accept that the SNP Government haven't SECURED £1BILLION of private investment in Renewables last year.

The largest wind farm incuded in that £1BILLION figure is currently being built on Eaglesham Moor to the south of Glasgow.

"under construction"

Read my posts again, I didn't say anything of the sort, I asked you whether it was under construction.

Your have been categorically thoroughly rattled my friend.

I suspect the paranoia is now creeping into those dark brooding eyes.

Stop wriggling, it's embarrassing.

Stand still so that we can all see your indignity


Yours Triumphantly


Mutley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZm47SrmuwM&feature=related
219

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:40:11
244 Fur foulkes sake,13/01/2009 17:26:16
#242
Shouldn’t you be busy at work flying up and down to London with that executive job of yours rather than posting on here 24 hours of the day?
Oh, my sides!
========================================================
If you cast your small mind back, you will remember that I said that travel had been cut due to the current economic crisis.

So stop being so idiotic.
220

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 17:45:51
Tormod my post at 242 is correct.

If you conducted a survey tomorrow of 1000 people in Glasgow City Centre, how many do you think would know what the declaration of Arbroath was and how many would know its contents.

Seriously.

Fur foulkes sake's post at 239 is patent nonsense.
221

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 17:50:58
#226
Observer,,
Glasgow 13/01/2009 16:52:57

Vino sorted 6 bottles.

Can you find a recipient for 1, apart from your own?
222

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 17:51:12
248 OK so according to you as well as being subsidy junkies, economic illiterates, too old and sick to sustain an economy, we are also ignoramuses about our own history.

Excluding tourists I am fairly confident most of my fellow Glaswegians could answer your question, and maybe some of the tourists could too, the Declaration of Arbroath is a very famous document.
223

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 17:52:50
249 Good evening I think you should send one to Rufus, he can toast himself with an aptly named wine.
224

The Master,

13/01/2009 17:55:45
May I take the liberty of rewriting post #239:

If you are a Nat you would know what the Declaration said, if you weren’t a Nat you wouldn’t

Why can't Nats understand that nationalism is a peculiar mindset, the tenents of which just don't have anything like the same centrality to the ordinary Joe out there.
225

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 17:57:04
251


So how do we do it?
226

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 17:58:16
252 You assume all unionists are ignorant of history ? I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement myself, but maybe you have more experience.
227

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 17:58:41
252 Master Debator

664,227 (constituency)
633,401 (regional)

That's an awful lot of peculiar folk out there.

May I suggest you post an apology, deactivate your username and never post such drivel again in public.......
228

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 18:01:41

252. Master Reset

Would it be fair to say that the SNp are only described as nationalists because of the current state of Scotland. i.e. It isn't a state.

Would the SNP be 'nationalists' in an independent Scotland or simple one of probably other patriotic parties.

Are Labour patriots?



229

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 18:02:37

256. He won't get off his knees until he's finishes what he dropped down to do..... has anyone seen smee?????

What's that strange gurgling sound
230

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 18:03:59
248.


"...If you conducted a survey tomorrow of 1000 people in Glasgow City Centre, how many do you think would know what the Act of Union was and how many would know its contents.

Seriously....."

231

The Master,

13/01/2009 18:06:03
#255: I take the point in your post #257, but, as regards #255, I do believe that surveys have shown that around 40% of SNP voters don't actually support the separation policy (I do wish AM2 were around to confirm this: I don't have the time to research it just now!)
232

Hugh Roscombe,

13/01/2009 18:08:49
260

WTF have YOU been?
233

,

13/01/2009 18:17:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
234

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 13/01/2009 18:24:24
#242 Rufus

You are now exhibiting all the credentials of one of those odd individuals who loudly proclaim their inherent right to stride along the “Queens Highway” expressing their support for the principle of discriminating against particular sections of our society.

Your bellow of “No Surrender” would appear to represent the extent of your intellectual ability.

However, as someone who claims to earn in excess of £54k per annum, (“I would personally lose out from the introduction of LIT”), and someone claiming a degree in economics, but yet thinks that the UK Govt would only achieve a total of £2bn in taxation from North Sea oil & gas operations in 2009, you have no credibility.

Who on earth would employ such a clown as you at the salary you claim to earn?
235

The Master,

13/01/2009 18:25:27
#261: let's just say that other sites have caught my interest more recently, however much I have grown to admire the Scotsman's trademark slant!
236

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 18:45:01

260. Why don't you email AM2 for some help

scottishunionist@gmail.com

237

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 18:53:34
#241 janeshore

"A good script, we really should have it on some postcards"

I don't think so, not unless you want them to think all English People are anti semites.

From the Magna Carta

"If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond. And if anyone die indebted to the Jews, his wife shall have her dower and pay nothing of that debt; and if any children of the deceased are left under age, necessaries shall be provided for them in keeping with the holding of the deceased; and out of the residue the debt shall be paid, reserving, however, service due to feudal lords; in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews."
238

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:03:05

Smeee

"....Oh I think you'll find that I enthusiastically accept that the SNP have not "secured" anything....."

mmmm, your at odds with every publication that accep[ts and indeed uses the word 'secure' in it's description of the SNP Government determining in favour of £1BILLION worth of investment in renewables.

Once again, your argument simply comes down to your definition of a particular word..... in this case 'secures'....... really smee, do you think this is a sustainable debating position.....

Your utter contempt for Scotland and it's achievements is blighted only by your sheer and palatable distaste for the SNP.

The projects have been secured, the work is proceeding and more projects are on-stream to meet Scotland's 2011 Targets and go along way to meeting the 2020 targets..... a Scottish success story in the face of global slow down.


You just can't bring yourself to admit when your wrong.

A poster called 'baffled' had much the same affliction on the Herald.

Now, no more fishy tales and roaming around with pistols. in your hand and mad look in your eye muttering clauses from the act of union......

Your sunk Admiral.

Move along nothing to see here.....








239

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:06:53

269. Declaration of Arbroath

"...Thus our nation under their protection did indeed live in freedom and peace up to the time when that mighty prince the King of the English, Edward, the father of the one who reigns today, when our kingdom had no head and our PEOPLE harboured no malice or treachery and were then unused to wars or invasions, came in the guise of a friend and ally to harass them as an enemy. The deeds of cruelty, massacre, violence, pillage, arson, imprisoning prelates, burning down monasteries, robbing and killing monks and nuns, and yet other outrages without number which he committed against our people, sparing neither age nor sex, religion nor rank, no one could describe nor fully imagine unless he had seen them with his own eyes......"


The Articles of Union mention people once in the context of slavery and trade.

It never mentions the word 'nation'




Smee's is almost definitely 'baffled' from the herald.






240

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 19:11:44
269 MacCormick - v -the Lord Advocate Lord Cooper of Culross '' the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle and has no counterpart ion Scottish law''.

See also Gibson - v - the Lord Advocate 1975.

In Scotland the people are sovereign, in England they are not. That is not hooey, it is law.
241

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:11:54

269. "...For anyone today to try and interpret "we" and "us" as written by those men, at that time, as referring to the wider "peepul" is farcical...."

Declaration of Arbroath opening gambit.....

"... To the most Holy Father and Lord in Christ, the Lord John, by divine providence Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman and Universal Church, his humble and devout sons Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise..................and the other barons and freeholders and THE WHOLE COMMUNITY OF THE REALM of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence......."

You obviously know nothing about the declaration.

How sad that you should choose to denigrate this incredibly important document and it's stature in our nation's culture and history.

Your are a disgrace smee.

persona non grata







242

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 19:12:53
271 Same completely circular style of argument.
243

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:16:13

276. Aye, he's beat up and getting ill natured.....

Ol baffled, who would have thought it.....

244

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 19:16:16
#263 Bully Wee

I can assure you that where I work there are a heck of a lot of people earning more than £54k a year.

It might sound a lot to you but thats the market rate.
245

Faux Cul,

13/01/2009 19:16:36
#271
Wardog™,
13/01/2009 19:06:53

Smee's is almost definitely 'baffled' from the herald.


Thank you!

A bottle of Observer Wine for Smee!

Obs to deliver!


But where?

246

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:17:43
278. Loads o' Money.......


No wonder your cacking yourself about LIT.

247

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 19:17:59
279 I am sure both of them can be reached through the Scotsman. They seem to be on the same shift today....
248

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 19:18:42
from the Magna Carta wiki

"In 2006, BBC History held a poll to recommend a date for a proposed "Britain Day". 15 June, as the date of the signing of the original 1215 Magna Carta, received most votes, above other suggestions such as D-Day, VE Day, and Remembrance Day. The outcome was not binding, although the then Chancellor Gordon Brown had previously given his support to the idea of a new national day to celebrate British identity.[13] It was used as the name for an anti-surveillance movement in the 2008 BBC series The Last Enemy. According to a poll carried out by YouGov in 2008, 45% of the British public do not know what Magna Carta is.[14] However, its perceived guarantee of trial by jury and other civil liberties led to Tony Benn to refer to the debate over whether to increase the maximum time terrorist suspects could be held without charge from 28 to 42 days as "the day Magna Carta was repealed"
249

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 19:20:57
280 see 273. In the same case the lord Advocate conceded that the Parliament of Great Britain ''could not'' repeal or alter (certain) ''fundamental and essential'' conditions of the Act of Union. And one was the principle of Scottish sovereignty resting with the people.
250

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:22:11

280. Smee

"...how did they ask anyone other than Men with Fancy Titles and Hats...."

oh baffled, give it up you boring count.

Your wrong as always.







251

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:24:00
280 Baffled

..."...how did they ask anyone other than Men with Fancy Titles and Hats...."....

A perfect description of the parcel o' rogues.....

252

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/01/2009 19:32:16
#278 Rufus

"......people earning more than £54k a year. It might sound a lot to you but thats the market rate."

It was once a considerable sum, but on your next holiday in Sitges, Mykonos or Key West, it wont go nearly as far as it used too.
253

,

13/01/2009 19:37:38
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254

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:40:40
278


£54k

LIT would be Earnings - Personal allowance x3% LIT= £1440
Typical Band E House Council Tax = £1482.56



255

,

13/01/2009 19:44:58
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256

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:45:36
291. Smeee

"...Possibly because it did not exist?....."

or

possibly because the Act of Union was penned by " Men with Fancy Titles and Hat's" who sought to subvert such a notion.








257

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 19:46:23

269. A very valid point.
258

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13/01/2009 20:10:21
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13/01/2009 20:14:25
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13/01/2009 20:19:51
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13/01/2009 20:21:13
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13/01/2009 20:22:20
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Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 20:27:12
(#105) – (Wardog) – So you are saying the people who are served at those three hospitals are less worthy than those at the other fourteen right?

Isn’t it just possible that a person sensitive to the needs of all of the people of Scotland might count all of the people of Scotland as equal?

I agree this is pretty damning, don’t you think so?

Only the inarticulate would believe the two interpretations were the same, have you been sucked into your own short bread tin world where anything you say counts as anything else which is covered by what others say in your stead?

(#120) – (Wardog) – Wouldn’t you be better asking the SNP Government seeing those other fourteen hospital car parks have had public monies spent on them to private firms?

As you said you didn’t know what was involved with the contracts involve I take it you are clueless?

The arguments are less with the people screaming out for their infrastructure and more with those who enjoy kicking political balls and them all over the place, don’t you agree, or are you more interested in keepy uppy?
266

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13/01/2009 20:50:50
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13/01/2009 20:58:38
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268

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 20:59:34
289 Now now Smee why the denial ?

The Treaty of Union did not abolish Scots law.

The McCormick ruling was made by the Court of Session.

The doctrine of the sovereignty of the people is clearly recognised as part of the constitutional debate, and has evolved from the ''community of the realm'' which is now recognised as the registered electorate.

I don't particularly care how Betty Windsor styles herself, but the Mccormick judgement was important and has never been overturned.

269

,

13/01/2009 21:03:54
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13/01/2009 21:04:16
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271

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:04:19
316 ''Don't be rebellious.''

Deary me, have we to know our place and tug our forelocks too ?
272

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:06:56
313 You have to look at the context in which the Declaration was written. Who signed it ? Most of those who had a voice in those days, obviously very different to now. But it was those who represented the ''community of the realm'' and that is easily translated.
273

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 21:08:10
(Observer,) – “And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” - Isn’t it wardog with the god complex? If you are talking about angels then we could say whatever number God wishes couldn’t we?
274

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 21:08:29
(Wardog) – Are you a nationalist with leanings towards the tories, using their baby theme as you are?
PFI has been a public relations disaster yes, but can you honestly say they don’t work when you want to cover many projects but don’t have the ready money to cover them?
275

,

13/01/2009 21:10:31
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276

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:14:20
321 ''Do these things not being morally right stop other things which are not morally right from being changed''

That's a bit of an open ended question on a thread about three carparks.

Hence my angels/pin reference.
277

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13/01/2009 21:15:55
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278

Observer,,

13/01/2009 21:17:34
325 quite clearly you need to look at the context it was written in of course. What did the Declaration assert ? The sovereignty of the people (who were in those days bloke with hats) as being paramount.

As for the Union - that was made, it can be un-made. Nothing has un-made the Declaration and McCormick re-affirmed that.
279

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13/01/2009 21:20:40
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280

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:24:00
Smee your circular argument is going nowhere. The signatories to the Declaration represented the community of the realm as it was in 1320. A lot of things have changed since then, but the underlying principle behind it hasn't, which has been legally recognised by the Court of Session. Who did or did not wear hats is not hugely important.
281

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13/01/2009 21:24:10
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282

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:32:33
Smee - Westminster is located in England dear - English law applies. This is Scotland, and Scots law applies here.

However I can assure you I have nothing to do with any ''right wing Nat nutters'' I don't know who you mean.

This is actually a sidebar, international law ensures the right to self determination, but you're right, it's fun.
283

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 21:35:04
335 Unfortunately the signatories to the Act of Union did represent the Scottish people when they sold us down the river. However, as you will know Article X1X makes clear, the Treaty did not abolish Scots law.
284

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13/01/2009 21:38:52
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13/01/2009 21:40:25
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286

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 21:43:18
296

Waiting till I go eh baffled, up to you old tricks

You are still a depressing miserable old pessimist with nothing to contribute but "doomed, yer aw doomed...." - Well, I think we all had enough of that at the Herald.

Old stuck in the mud , sad sack

"...So you're happy to cite the Men with Fancy Titles and Hats in 1320, but not in 1707...."

no simply to highlight your plight of...

So you're happy to cite the Men with Fancy Titles and Hats in 1700, but not in 1320.

Touche



297. Smeee

I mistyped, I meant to say "a very squalid point"

'Squalid' as in low down and dirty, slithering, belly dragging conotations



298. Baffled "Best of luck to the renewables folks,"

Yes, yes Smee, we've all read you doom mongering before. Fortunately we now have a government who are getting on with the business of showing you up for the fraudster and charlatan that you are.


306 Ewan.

It appears that you are unable to ell us whether the £50M is annual or indeed where you'd like to take that money from to pay off the private companies that have the cotnracts. You are also unable to confirm whether thse contracts can be opened or scrapped at all.

In short you have nothing but empty hypocritical rhetoric, goodbye, you are the weakest link.


"....As you said you didn’t know what was involved with the contracts involve I take it you are clueless?...."

breathtaking ignorance.

"...infrastructure and more with those who enjoy kicking political balls and...."

In you case that would be licking political balls.

Please go away and read a bit more about PFI.




308. The thrashing continues unabated, bashful baffled is a glutton for a good ol whipp'n.

313.

"...if they were talking about "popular sovereignty", why was it never mentioned again in the Scottish Parliament for nearly 400 years?...."

Why would those in the parliament mention it?

Equally, why would those same people wish to mention it in the acts of union
287

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 21:53:20
335.

Neither groups in 1320 or indeed in 1007 were elected representative of the people, democracy as we know it did now exist and in the act of the union signing, their are records of wide spread rioting.

The key thing isn't who signed or indeed drafted these documents, it's the idea and sentiment included in them.

Bernard de Linton, the likely author if the declaration, put into words crucial idea that has transcended through the ages and must have existed long before he penned it and certainly exists up until this day.

It's what scares you most smee, such ideas are whispers, you can't beat them with phoney legislation or indeed roguish contracts of state.

An idea lives without documentation, it just so happens the very ideals of that idea were recorded in 1320.

An inspirational document, destined to be far more memorable than the 'Act of union' whose contents almost solely discuss taxation, revenue and shared common market..... suitable for the parcel of rogues that penned it.



288

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:00:43
341 The Declaration of Arbroath is said to have influenced many outside Scotland, not least the authors of the Constitution of the United States. Now, no matter how much of a general screw up the US politicians may have made of their legacy, the founding principles were sound. The document starts ''WE THE PEOPLE''. It's the same here.
289

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 22:10:14
342. Absolutely, it also played a crucial role along with other European ideals in the French Revolution.....

No one is pretending that Scotland was alone in having some of these ideals, the same thing is seen with the Levellers and others in British history.

The key thing with the declaration or Arbroath as you rightly point out Observer, was it's format and plea.

Something which has been taken up in other constitutions later in history.

It's precedent marks it as a key document, just as certain elements of mgna carta set that document as a beacon in resting control from the sovereign king.





290

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 22:16:22
342 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:00:43
341 The Declaration of Arbroath is said to have influenced many outside Scotland, not least the authors of the Constitution of the United States.
=====================================================

Altogether now

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
291

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 22:22:14
250 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 17:51:12
248 OK so according to you as well as being subsidy junkies, economic illiterates, too old and sick to sustain an economy, we are also ignoramuses about our own history.

Excluding tourists I am fairly confident most of my fellow Glaswegians could answer your question, and maybe some of the tourists could too, the Declaration of Arbroath is a very famous document.
===================================================

You are living in a dream world if you believe that.

Half the people walking about Glasgow dont know what day of the week it is.
292

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 22:24:54

344. Rufus

You deny that the Declaration of Arbroath was a key template for the Declaration of Independence and indeed contains many of the ideals also expressed by the Leveller's and the French Revolution?

Do you still wish we 'owned' america rufus.... secretly.... you can tell me.

293

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:24:55
You're a wee ignorant bigot Rufus but keep on posting dear, you display your ignorance with every comment you make. All grist to my mill.
294

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:26:01
347 He's too daft to google. Jeez, it's not hard is it.
295

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 22:26:40

346. Rufus doing down Scotland

"...Half the people walking about Glasgow dont know what day of the week it is...."

This statement tells us more about your superiority complex than anything else, locked away with your rich buddies, quaffing port and discussing ploys to avoid taxation.

Your sooooooo middleclass rufus




296

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:29:26
350 Wullie was funny. Obnoxious, but funny. Rufus only has one of these qualities.
297

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:34:06
352 Oh come on you should be able to do better than that, what with you being a historian who went to Churchill College.

But anyway, as I said earlier the right to self determination is enshrined in international law.

But as an aside, as we are not subject to the sovereignty of Parliament then it's hard to see how any Act made by Parliament can supercede our constitutional position that sovereignty rests with the people. But as I said, it's an academic argument (and I'm not an academic).
298

Observer,,

Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:35:32
I'm off, goodnight.
299

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 22:36:18
349 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:26:01
347 He's too daft to google. Jeez, it's not hard is it.
=================================================
Did you have to search for it?

How sad.
300

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 22:37:35
351 Wardog™,13/01/2009 22:26:40

346. Rufus doing down Scotland

"...Half the people walking about Glasgow dont know what day of the week it is...."
=======================================================
When were you last in Glasgow?

Whenever it was you must have been walking about with your eyes closed.
301

Rufus-T-Firefly,

13/01/2009 22:39:38
354 Fur foulkes sake,13/01/2009 22:32:49
#352

"hereof and forever after"

To borrow a line from Observer "As for the Union - that was made, it can be un-made"
=======================================================

How Profound.

Thats up there with Keats and Shelley.
302

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/01/2009 22:48:47
Why the u-turn from Labour(Scotland)? They introduced the charges. Are they resorting to having to capture the populist vote?
303

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 13/01/2009 22:52:11
Smee, 352. Please don't try and make me wet my pants.
304

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 22:59:17
(#131) – (KampungHighlander) – Are you saying then the sick and injured plus their families are not to be treated any different than the user of a bridge?

I don’t know Jeopardy what is the format/

Are Labour actually admitting the failure of PFI, or are they wishing to relieve the pressure on the vulnerable patients and families using our hospitals?
305

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 23:18:27
(#148) – (Observer,) – Why do you think a policy which has built much infrastructure throughout the UK has been attacked in stereotypical fashion by Scots over the extra expense due to credit?
Was it not the SNP who set out to con everyone into believing the evils of credit and the PFI?
When people are short in resources because of many projects is it not right getting credit to cover the costs of the extra work done is essential?
306

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 23:24:24
(brownlie) – Why would anyone advocate short bread nationalism, when it is nationalism based on reality that can only be effective?
Hadn’t you realized that short bread nationalism is nationalism based on the image and style rather than the substance?
307

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 23:30:52
(Wardog) – “Just tell us where you’d like to see the £50M come from?” – Isn’t your question only relevant if you had the Scottish budget details and the total sum to be allocated by Westminster?

If you have them I will gladly have a look for you if you want?
308

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 23:33:04


363. Are Labour actually admitting the failure of PFI, or are they wishing to relieve the pressure on the vulnerable patients and families using our hospitals?

I don't know Ewan.

What do you think?

Did they realise the pressure that they were putting on vulnerable patients when they isigned these deals or maybe it's juts one big mixup.

Labour always helps the vulnerable.

Here's a list of things they've done to help lately...

100% increase in basic rate Income Tax
Pensions obliterated during a series of raids by Brown
Pension Stocks annihilated by a Crisis exacerbated by Brown's Polices
£12Billion squandered on a 2% VAT cut on Party Frocks....
Bailing out the Fat Cats
Illegal Wars
Backroom Deals on Abortion Rights
Sky High Council Tax
Prison Population out of control
Methadone Programme instead of proper Rehabilitation
Binge Drinking out of Control
Abject Failure to deal with anti-social behaviour
Airguns remain a serious threat in Scotland
Welfare Reforms welcomed by Tories
Privatisation of NHS and City Academies
Post Office closures and expected Privatisation
Party Sleaze / Dodgy Donations / Cash for Honours
Dodgy Arms deals with Middle East
Abolishing Scottish Regiments / Poorly Equipping our Soldiers
UK Government withholding over £1BILLION from Scots.
10 year Transport Plan Total Failure
New Nuclear Power at expense of Renewables
£250 BILLION on renewing Trident System
Humiliating defeat over 42 pre charge detention
Actively deregulated Financial Services
Presided over the biggest Personal Debt crisis ever known.
Poverty Gap Trend Increasing


Impressive isn't it
309

Ewan Randall,

13/01/2009 23:35:55
(Fur Foulkes sake) –I will always consider there is a chance of insanity, it is one of the only ways a sane person may test themselves for the debilitating illness, do you believe me to be a nutter, and if so why?
310

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 23:37:54

366. Ewan

Let's assume a one off payment of £50MILLION, and just hide the slight legal problem of opening up a PFI contract under the carpet for now.

The 2007-2011 budget can be viewed here.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/11/13092240/0


Now where do you propose the cuts?
311

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 23:38:28


368. TROLL ALERT
312

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 00:08:08
(#367) – (Wardog) – I think you really know the answer to this question, but you really don’t want to admit it in writing do you?
Do you think there is the remotest possibility they lost sight of the detail by only focusing on the big picture, and then when painted into a corner with the revelations stuck to their guns in panic instead of holding their hands up?

“Labour always helps the vulnerable.” – The one thing I do know about the Labour party is their unparalleled achievements in helping the vulnerable, surely you already knew?

Nice list by the way, who helped you write it out the three blind mice?

You don’t often see lists and babble in such close proximity do you, how did you manage to make such an awful mess of the whole thing?

Why don’t you try again, and leave the babble out and anything else which is conjecture and hearsay, will that help you out?
313

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 00:38:00
(#370) – (Wardog) – Spooked are we?
Are trolls alert?

What is your definition of this term on this Scotsman site?
314

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 00:50:19
(#369) – (Wardog) – Do you think the PFI contracts are so unpopular people would allow a reduction in certain areas?
Do you think it so hard to target £50M for a one off payment from the proposed budget?
You are pulling my leg right?
I wouldn’t take at all off of one area, but don’t you think you could take £50M off of Scottish Water’s £2.5Billion?
315

Wardog™,

14/01/2009 00:57:11

372. Do you think it so hard to target £50M for a one off payment from the proposed budget

You seem to be struggling with it spectacularly.


I think you put your trousers back on Ewan, the children are starting to cry, your cringe is hanging out, as are your rather fragrant disregard for hypocrisy....
316

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 01:05:49
(#312) – (A genuine account) – DNA testing has shown a huge number of Scots of Pictish descent, this couldn’t have occurred if the declaration of Arbroath had been accurate. Many countries embellish their origin stories as they really didn’t know what had happened themselves. Who out there in medieval times were going to dispute other countries origin stories?
317

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 01:13:27
(#374) - (Wardog) -I get it, you didn't expect I would even have a go did you?

Hadn't you even notice Scottish Waters £2.5billion then?

Do you really think your meaningless words can harm me?

Can you be any more of a sad individual than you already are?
318

Ewan Randall,

14/01/2009 01:17:04
(Wardog) - This is me leaving this area of this site as it is obviously run itself into the ground, so will you be joining me elsewhere?
319

Billiam Wallace,

15/01/2009 15:51:59
#343 from Dufus T Gitface:

342 Observer,,Glasgow 13/01/2009 22:00:43
341 The Declaration of Arbroath is said to have influenced many outside Scotland, not least the authors of the Constitution of the United States.
=====================================================

Altogether now

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Altogether now? Erm.. No, I don't think so. Only you are laughing as it is not funny and you are the only pretentious prat who has no regard for the Declaration of Arbroath or indeed anything Scottish. Looking through your sad list of posts, one cannot fail to noticce a total lack of any positive ideas for the future of Scotland, only a litany of bile and hatred for an oppressed people who are striving for a better future. Instead of defending the indefensible in NuLiebour and their ilk, you would be far better coming up with something positive for the future. You are a sad wee man and your pitiful condition makes me sad for you.

PS Ewan Rank-hypocrite generates exactly the same feelings of disgust and melancholy.

 

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