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More questions than answers in 'state of the union' review

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Published Date: 26 March 2008
JUST before midday yesterday, the political ground in Scotland shifted, starting a process that will change the United Kingdom for ever.
Professor Sir Kenneth Calman, one of the country's senior academics, was unveiled as the chairman of a new cross-party, cross-Border commission to review the devolution settlement.

His appointment will inevitably lead to more powers for the Scotti
sh Parliament and a complete review of the way money is divided around the UK.

For Donald Dewar, the late First Minister, the devolution settlement he devised represented "the settled will" of the Scottish people. Yesterday, in a wood-panelled and brightly-lit conference room, Sir Kenneth's appointment proved this was no longer the case. The devolution settlement now represents merely the starting point for a radical redrawing of the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

As he walked into room P102 on the first floor of the media tower in the Scottish Parliament yesterday, Sir Kenneth was flanked by three beaming party leaders: Wendy Alexander for Labour, Annabel Goldie for the Tories and Nicol Stephen for the Liberal Democrats.

Together, they command 78 of the 129 MSPs in the parliament, more than enough to drive through their plans in this or any other parliament.

But beneath the nervous smiles as the flash guns cracked and the television cameras rolled, there was considerable uncertainty – none of them really had any idea quite where this process will take the country.

"I believe this will be the commission that will decide the constitutional future of Scotland and will create a stronger Scottish Parliament within a stronger UK," Mr Stephen said.

That view was echoed by Miss Goldie, when she said: "Mainstream opinion in Scotland wants devolution to work better and for Scotland to be secure in a stronger UK – that is what this body is all about."

And Ms Alexander said: "I think ten years on is the right point to review whether the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament are properly managed."

But none could say what the commission would come up with, because its remit is so wide-ranging. It can examine any and all parts of the devolution settlement and recommend any changes – as long as Scotland stays within the UK.

Sir Kenneth was clear that he would stop short of considering the question of independence, but he, too, has no idea what his commission will come up with. "Like the majority of the Scottish people, I very much see myself as part of the UK, but a Scot within that," he said.

He went on: "Seventy-seven per cent of the Scottish public don't think independence is the right way forward. All of the work over the last few years makes it pretty clear that's not an issue right now. Certainly, for this commission, it will not be an issue we will be discussing.

"There are plenty of other issues that are relevant to Scotland and its institutions and its parliament, which will give us plenty to look at."

However, as the three party leaders and the new chairman of the constitutional commission were taking this brave leap in the dark, SNP managers were clear where they stood: they were delighted, even though the body would not consider independence.

They believe that any moves to strengthen the powers of Holyrood and weaken the ties with Westminster will push Scotland along the road to independence.

If the Scottish Parliament gets fiscal autonomy of any form – whether in the guise of assigned tax revenues or actual control over the power to raise or lower taxes – the Nationalists believe this will give Scots the desire for more power and will lead to Holyrood getting complete control over its finances in time.

A spokesman for the First Minister said the decision of the unionist parties to set up the commission had made an independence referendum more likely, and he made it clear Alex Salmond thought his opponents had played into his hands.

He said: "The election last May has brought about change right across the political spectrum. What we are seeing at the moment would not have happened had we not won the election."

He said Mr Salmond had always been willing to accept more than one question in an independence referendum, and now the commission had been tasked with coming up with more powers for the parliament, that option could be put to the people, too.

In a piece of media management designed to show the support of the UK government, Gordon Brown issued a carefully worded statement to coincide with yesterday's commission launch.

The Prime Minister said the Cabinet had given the commission its approval and he was "determined to review the provisions of the Scotland Act in the light of ten years' experience while securing Scotland's place within the United Kingdom".

However, Professor John Curtice, of Strathclyde University, warned that the creation of the commission was a "gamble" for the unionist parties, who were hoping it would entrench support for the Union but not lead to greater demands for independence.

"If this comes up with anything that increases the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament, Scotland is going to look different from the rest of the United Kingdom," he said.

He said the commission aimed to do two things: convince Scots of the need for more financial control and persuade the English that Scots should have more financial responsibility.

"The crucial thing about this commission is who it persuades at Westminster, because all the important decisions on this will be made at Westminster," Prof Curtice said.

Sir Kenneth will publish his interim report in November, with his final report due some time next year. He will take evidence from the political parties, from "civic Scotland" – which means the churches, trade unions, business leaders and others – and from any other interested parties and individuals.

His review will run alongside the "national conversation" being organised by the Scottish Government and, while the SNP's version is concentrating on independence, Sir Kenneth's review will look at everything but that.

Sir Kenneth stressed yesterday that he was a unionist and a devolutionist, and that he did not believe in Scotland going it alone. However, what no-one knows is how far his review will go in pushing devolution along the road to independence.

Calman says study 'will not be driven by Downing Street'

ONE of Scotland's leading doctors and academics took charge of the new, wide-ranging review of the devolution settlement yesterday, and immediately insisted he would not take orders from Downing Street.

Sir Kenneth Calman, the Chancellor of Glasgow University, who will chair the Scottish constitutional commission, said that he would lead a genuinely independent inquiry.

"I would not have accepted this if I felt this was something being driven from elsewhere," he said.

Sir Kenneth also denied his inquiry would be fatally weakened by the fact independence would not be within the scope of its study, adding: "All the work over the last few years makes it pretty clear that's not an issue right now."

The setting up of the commission was discussed and approved by the Westminster Cabinet yesterday.

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, said: "I am delighted that Sir Kenneth Calman has agreed to chair this body and that it has the support of both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.

"Together, we are determined to review the provisions of the Scotland Act in the light of ten years' experience, while securing Scotland's place within the UK."

The commission hopes to produce an interim report in November.

At yesterday's launch in Edinburgh, Sir Kenneth was joined by Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Liberal Democrats' leader and Annabel Goldie, the leader of the Scottish Tories.

The commission is officially described as an "independent review" supported by both the Scottish Parliament and the UK government, and its recommendations will be considered by both.

Its terms of reference, in line with a resolution passed by the Scottish Parliament, are to review the workings of the Scotland Act and recommend improvements, while continuing to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.

Sir Kenneth said that his activities and interests over the past 30 years had all involved questions of quality of life.

He added: "This report is about how we can improve the quality of life and wellbeing of the people of Scotland."

Meanwhile, the Scottish Government will today launch the second phase of its "national conversation" on the country's constitutional future.

This will involve taking the views of a range of organisations and institutions, from churches to trade unions and professional bodies.

Last night, a spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, contrasted the SNP-led administration's approach with the "extraordinary" exclusion of independence from the commission's deliberations.

The First Minister's spokesman also claimed the commission had been "hijacked" by the Prime Minister and downgraded to the status of a review.

He added: "We may disagree on the destination, but all parties must agree on the fundamental point that a referendum (on independence] is the democratic route."


The choices
These are the four main possibilities the commission will explore, as Hamish Macdonell explains:

1. THE STATUS QUO
THE first option open to Sir Kenneth Calman's review is to recommend no change at all – the status quo.

He could deliberate and take evidence for the next six months and decide that the devolution settlement is working well and there is no need to alter the Scotland Act in any way.

However, given that the Scottish Constitutional Commission was set up by three parties, all of which want to see change in some form or other, it would be almost inconceivable for Sir Kenneth to recommend nothing.

He could suggest handing back some powers to Westminster. Possible avenues include some legal controls, allowing the Westminster government to take complete control over anti-terrorism work – without having to ask the permission of the Scottish judiciary or the Scottish Government – or some environment controls. But any move to hand back powers to Westminster without bringing any other powers north would be hugely controversial and also unlikely. Sir Kenneth knows he is acting under the auspices of the main Unionist parties who want to see movement, particularly financial, in the devolution settlement and he will be under pressure to justify the commission's role.


2.NON-FINANCIAL POWERS
WHEN the Scotland Act was approved by Westminster, a number of key policy areas were reserved to Westminster.

The main ones – defence and foreign affairs – will remain in place because these represent the last bulwarks of the Union. If the Scottish Parliament was given charge of these policy areas, Scotland really would be independent. Sir Kenneth Calman's job is to consider whether any of the more minor powers should now be transferred to Edinburgh.

Some are small, self-contained policy areas like control over broadcasting or abortion policy in Scotland, issues which were considered for the Scottish Parliament but rejected by the UK government during the discussions in 1998. Others, however, are more wide-ranging, like firearms, drugs and immigration. These are big Home Office issues but there have been claims that Scotland would do better to make policy in these areas for itself. Immigration would be particularly problematic, because different immigration rules would need checks at the border and a Scottish immigration service, both of which would put up fresh barriers between Scotland and England.


3.ASSIGNING TAX REVENUES
IF THE Scottish Parliament is assigned tax revenues it would no longer get the £30 billion cheque from the Treasury it receives at the moment. Instead, it would be given money in parcels, allocated on the basis of the money raised in Scotland.

If, for example, stamp duty raises £500 million a year in Scotland, then that would be allocated under that heading. The advantage of this system is that it introduces a limited degree of control and responsibility. If revenues in one area go up, so the money coming to the Scottish Parliament in this area would go up, so it would be in the interest of the Scottish Government to improve the economy and hence improve the buoyancy of tax receipts in a particular area.

But there are major difficulties in this field. If Sir Kenneth decides that all Scottish tax revenues should be assigned, then what happens to North Sea oil revenue? If the majority of these receipts are assigned to Scotland, wouldn't that leave the Treasury short of cash?

Also, once the tax revenues are assigned, it would not be long before demands would grow for control of these taxes to be devolved too.

4.TAX-VARYING POWERS
SIR Kenneth's commission could solve some of the problems of assigned tax revenues by recommending that various tax levers are handed over to the parliament as well.

The scope here is limited by European regulations which forbid variations to certain taxes, such as business taxes, within a member state, but there is room for changes to stamp duty, excise duty and other indirect taxes, as well as more complex changes to the way the Scottish Parliament can vary income tax. At the moment, the Scottish Parliament can change the basic rate by up to 3p in the pound, up and down. It can also alter local taxes, as the Scottish Government is trying to do with its plans for a local income tax.

Income tax could be handed over to the Scottish Parliament in its entirety, but that would be such a big step it would be resisted furiously by ministers in London.

Whatever he suggests in this field, however, if Sir Kenneth recommends any changes to Scotland's fiscal base, it will inevitably spell the end of the Barnett Formula, the funding formula which has been allocating spending increases around the different parts of the UK for the past three decades.

Q & A: THE CONSTITUTIONAL COMMISSION

Q: What will the commission do?

A: It will review the devolution settlement, examine the powers the Scottish Parliament has at the moment and recommend changes.

Q: Who will it report to?

A: The UK government and Scottish Parliament.

Q: When will it report?

A: An interim report is expected in November this year with a final report in the summer of next year.

Q: Who is in charge?

A: Professor Sir Kenneth Calman, Chancellor of Glasgow University is chairman. He will be joined by other commissioners in the next few weeks.

Q: What is the commission's remit?

A: It can study any aspect of the devolution settlement, short of independence. The commission was set up to look for changes which may "better serve the people of Scotland, that would improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament and would continue to secure the position of Scotland within the UK".

Q: What will happen to the recommendations of the commission?

A: These will be considered by the main Unionist parties, but any changes to the devolution settlement will need to be enacted by Westminster, which would need to change the Scotland Act.

Q: How often will it meet, and where?

A: The frequency of meetings has yet to be decided. However, the first meeting will be next month, with regular meetings after that to hear oral evidence and consider written evidence. Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Lib Dems leader, said he hoped many of the meetings would be at Holyrood.

Q: How much will it cost?

A: Sir Kenneth is not taking a fee and neither will the other commissioners, so the cost will not be huge. Any other costs, including expenses of those involved and the costs of producing the reports, will be met jointly by the UK Government and by the Scottish Parliament's Corporate Body.

--
ALEX Salmond will today launch the second phase of his 'national conversation' on independence.

The First Minister has invited representatives from trade unions, church groups, environmental campaigns and business organisations to a conference at Edinburgh University.

He will deliver a speech and then invite representatives to take part in workshops based around each of the Scottish Government's main themes – a wealthier, healthier, greener and safer Scotland.

The conversation's first phase, launched last August, saw the public and organisations submitting comments on the Scottish Government's website. More than 26,000 comments were registered.

THE IDEAL CHOICE
AS both a unionist and a devolutionist, Professor Sir Kenneth Calman was the ideal choice to lead the Scottish Constitutional Commission.

He is respected in academia and in government, he knows politicians and how to work with them and he was willing to work for free.

All these factors propelled him into a job yesterday which is likely to change the face of Scottish politics for ever.

Now aged 66, Sir Kenneth came to public prominence, first as Scotland's Chief Medical Officer in 1989 and then as the CMO for England in 1992.

He trained as a doctor at Glasgow University and after working in London returned to Glasgow in 1974 as professor of oncology.

He has held high office in the World Health Organisation and was vice-chancellor of Durham University from 1998 to last year.

Sir Kenneth is currently the Chancellor of the University of Glasgow.

He has written seven books and more than 100 scientific papers and lists outside interests as Scottish literature, cartoons, gardening – and sundials.



The full article contains 2899 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

26/03/2008 00:47:45
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2

Edward,

26/03/2008 00:50:28
An utter disgrace that Scotland has to put up with being told by London what it wants.
It was a bit reminicent of what Henry Ford offered, when he first produced his Model T car, 'any colour you want as long as its black' With Labour and the other London based parties, its 'any form of home rule, as long as its within the Union!'
During Newsnight Scotland last night, Wendy Alexander was asked which taxes, would be devolved to Scotland, such as VAT or Corporation Tax, she could only mumble that these would not be considered as it was something to do with the EU (which its not). So already we have the makings of a farce, yes there would be tax raising powers considered, but not real ones!
When asked if the people of Scotland would be consulted, again another mumbled answer along the lines that yes the Commission (or was it review?) would go out to the country, but didnt seem to be to sure about this.
Im ashamed that I once supported Labour, the so called party of the people, now there a bunch of self servers that dont trust the people
The people of Scotland should turn there backs on these people.
3

,

26/03/2008 00:53:18
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4

The Answer,

Glasgow 26/03/2008 00:59:45
#4
"purile"

Remind me again the figures you said are raised from whisky tax by scots?
5

Edward,

26/03/2008 01:05:08
#5 The Answer aka AM2
Why dont you tell me, as Im at a loss to figure out what thats got to do with what I said here!
Remind me where I have supposed to have stated something about 'whisky taxes'?
6

PL,

26/03/2008 01:06:08
How can a journalist produce an article this long without telling us whether Labour intends to leigslate before the next UK general election? If not (or if Alexander doesn't know) this is fundamentally crucial: Labour is likely to lose the next election. And if it does, history and the cycles of political power suggest that Cameron will win at least two elections(especially as he intends to store up tax cuts in order to win a second term). Any implementation of the review's proposals could be 12 years away. It is sheer incompetence to write an article without considering this fundamental question. The proposals of the review could be obsolete before they have any prospect of implementation and the journalist neglects to mention this transparently obvious fact (or neglects to tell us that Labour DOES intend to legislate before the next election). Either way, a dunce cap is in order.
And the question of welfare, initially highlighted by Alexander, seems to have been dropped? U-turn? Again, no mention.
7

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 01:07:36
"the political ground in Scotland shifted"

Yes it did, when the SNP won the scottish elections. If that hadn't happened there would be no unionist review.

Labour and Lib Dems had plenty of opportunity to call for more powers when it mattered, ie when they had power.

As it is they are now in cahoots with the discredited Tories to agree a minimum of powers which might convince people that independence is not required. Brown thinks he might even be able to claw a few inconvenient powers back.

If Hamish MacDonell is excited about this then I think he's the only one.
8

The Daleks,

Longmen 26/03/2008 01:08:54
This guy is nothing but a Unionist stooge.

Read his comments.

He'll listen to what he wants to hear, and clearly independence is a word he's deaf to.

Pure window dressing. Do they really think we fall for this baloney any more?
9

,

26/03/2008 01:15:07
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10

Jimmy the Pie,

26/03/2008 01:27:11
Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon can see his legacy as the man who lost New Labour Sleaze and Corruption power. Coming away with waffle and drivel to gloss over the cracks won't do. Your time is coming to an end and not a moment too soon.

www.snp.org
11

walter,

26/03/2008 01:51:57
I am all for a review of the powers that Holyrood holds, I want the Scottish government to hold full powers in areas that affect only Scotland.
I want any power that is held by the UK government that is detrimental to Scotland while the rest of the UK prospers devolved to the Scottish parliament.
On that same line I want any power that will prosper Scotland to the detriment of the remainder of the UK reserved.
I would like this review postponed and Alexander, Goldie and Stephens to force this SNP government to hold a referendum this year on independence.
If the independence vote wins then we can start to work to that aim, however if it loses then the SNP government can either stand down as the people will have spoken or start to work for the betterment of Scotland and participate with this commission in the review of the powers Scotland should hold with in the framework of the UK.
12

Guga II,

Rockall 26/03/2008 01:59:27
I notice that Maggie Broon's "listening government" does not intend to consult the Scottish people on anything, only the Unionist parties.

Then again, what would you expect from the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party and their Stalinist, totalitarian control freak of a leader?

As for AM Squared, listen sunshine, if your mob in Northern Ireland want to stay as as a subservient part of this so-called Union, that's fine, but most of the people in Scotland don't, especiually the younger ones.
13

walter,

26/03/2008 02:28:47
I notice that Maggie Broon's "listening government" does not intend to consult the Scottish people on anything, only the Unionist parties.

Salmond intends to push through the LIT from those MSPs that represent the people, IE the SNP and LIB/DEM MSPs with the help of the Greens and Margo.
That is how our democracy works, those in parliament represent the people.
Brown is listening to the 79 MSPs (that's 32 more than the SNP) who represent the people.
Your claim that he is not listening to the Scottish people is rubbish the unionist parties that have 79 seats is the voice of the Scottish people.
14

,

26/03/2008 02:29:14
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Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen 26/03/2008 02:53:29
Let' see now, nearly 36 million people in England? barely 5 million occupants of Scotland give or take several million expats.

TOP TEN REASONS SCOTLAND COULDN'T MAKE IT ALONE:
(1) We don't have a track record of work ethics.
(2) We have trade unions.
(3) We have a Rabbie Burns approach to urban existence. (4) We want everything given to us for nothing.
(5) We suffer from a sense of entitlement.
(6) We're intolerant and resentful of the successes of the successful.
(7) We aren't very goal-oriented in our own right.
(8) We're the greatest at playing the red tape game.
(9) We live in the past.
(10)WE are all about US.
(11) We're NOT the sharpest educated knives in the drawer.
(12) We can't count to ten!
16

Abel Magwitch,

26/03/2008 02:55:18
H.G.Wells (admittedly not a Scot)once said that universities should have chairs and departments devoted solely to the study of The Future. That would not be a bad idea for Scotland just now. Leaving aside the economic issues, there is a question about the people. Are the educationl and health systems able to provide backup for an independent country? Is there a risk that crime and social problems will intensify after independence and contribute to a slow decline of the quality of life? We don't know the answers to these questions but someone should be asking them.
17

innesm,

Austin, Texas 26/03/2008 03:03:08
The glacier moves inexorably towards independence.
18

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 03:10:17
#18

What a load of rubbish only Highland Mighty, AM2 and Media 1 will swallow any of that.

36 million people in England - errr - only 10 million off the mark.

(1) We don't have a track record of work ethics.
Have you ever heard of calvinism?
(2) We have trade unions.
As does any western country
(3) We have a Rabbie Burns approach to urban existence.
Iv'e no idea what that means
(4) We want everything given to us for nothing.
Utter nonsense
(5) We suffer from a sense of entitlement.
No we don't
...

Ach.. wasting my time here I suspect, everyone can see you are cringing fool.

(12) We can't count to ten!

As is to qualify what a load of nonsense you have posted statement 12 can really be seen as a clarifying statement that indicates your personel level of education and your small minded-unionist 'we canny do it' attitude.

Utter banana
19

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 03:16:05
W Smith in his daily post from the bottom of the bucket is scraping hard!

You must be having a ball in the "Middle East" - you have a pathalogical hatred of Muslims and a love of all things Jewish.

My bets are you one of those ex-pat wangers in somewehere like Dubai thinking that your living like a king of the back of $2 a day Filipinos. Just call it a hunch.

You really are an odious man - you make Media 1 and AM2 look like angels.

20

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....Bye Bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil lead 26/03/2008 03:28:15
More questions than answers in 'state of the union' review
---------------
hey Dudes have U forgotten that
68% of the Scots voters, DID NOT vote for the SNP.

A FACT that U dudes ignore.
You will never get independence for Scotland when 68% of the voters do not support U the SNP.

And as long as U keep attacking Westminster, u are digging a political hole, from which U will not be able to climb out of. And an independent Scotland will remain a historical dream for U.

GC
21

,

26/03/2008 03:33:49
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22

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 03:34:07
Galactic posting from uranus.

Are you under the impression that the vote in May was referendum for Independence?

Why you insist on posting about things you have little understanding and little regard for is beyond me.

You are one sad 'dude'

Respectively
DD

23

,

26/03/2008 03:38:32
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24

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 03:52:27
It' started people
25

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 26/03/2008 04:22:56
25
Dougie Douglas,
Brisbane
----------------------------------

hey Dude, I no longer have digs on the Seventh planet.

But at least, I did not, and have no intention of, abandoning my country the US , like U abandoned Scotland

People who abandon their land of birth like U, where they were raised and educated, have show no respect, and have no gratitude for their ancestors.

U are the SAD dude ...dude.

GC
26

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:28:48
Tax control is the minimum including oil revenues taken at the metering point. The petroleum exchange moved to Scotland would be a bonus.

Oh yeah, control over our MP's expenses

See Michael Martin acting like the dimwit he is. Who is he trying to impress - Servio Berlusconi?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3621850.ece

Shameful and if there was any reason to get rid of them then this is it.

Imagine spending taxpayers money to hide how MP's spend taxpayers money

Disgrace
27

,

26/03/2008 04:35:28
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Reason:
28

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....Bye Bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil lead 26/03/2008 04:36:58
24
Scott Webb....,
26/03/2008,

Wrong Dude , I don't think that at all .

But I do think that, Ur constant negative tone, and attitude of the SNP, and its supports, towards Westminster, will not help Ur cause one bit.

And while 68% of the Scots voters did not vote SNP, it only makes Ur chance of gaining independence in a referendum less likely to happen.

At times the SNP remind me of New Zealand sheep.

When the lead sheep (A Salmond) goes BAHH , all the others follow with BAHH..BAHH..BAHH.

Happy Haggis Day dude.

GC
29

inkster,

26/03/2008 04:37:11
I reported Am2 a couple of hours ago about using the word 'separatist' which is commonly used to refer to eg 'Fark separatist' and 'Basque separatist'. This is an old unionist smear (good description of Am2 I suspect)Can he and others please stop using that pejoratist and insulting term to members and supporters of a democratically elected government. Please stop it - it's juvenile and frankly has a desperate ring about it. Please remove Mr. Moderator. Thanks in advance.
30

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:39:55
EVEN GORDON BROWN HAS CLAIMED 55k for a second home although living in a free one

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/26/nexpenses126.xml

They are stealing from us and even at Priministerial level!!

Thats why they have hired a lawyer to stop this coming to light. What an embarrasment

31

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

Farepak Justice 26/03/2008 04:41:12
100k to hide that the PM is a crook and steals 55k from the taxpayer while he gives squat to the poorest working families who had farepak vouchers.

Thats Labour for you if you are working class. You are there to steal from
32

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:42:57
Gordon with his snout in the trough.

Could Gordon Brown be the worst Primeminister the UK has ever had? lets have a vote or better still a general election after this
33

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:43:26
Using taxpayers money to hide your crimes against the taxpayers Gordon - that's clever
34

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:44:58
Michael Martin/Gordon brown/Wendy Alexander/Henry McLeish treat us like we are dirt.

They have taken politics to a whole new level here. Contempt for rules and worse that that, common decency.
35

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:46:00
"The House of Commons has already admitted destroying records, including those of expenses claimed by Tony Blair, after receiving Freedom of Information requests.

It claims that it is taking legal action - funded by the taxpayer - to prevent the addresses of MPs becoming public."

Given where we all know where they live anyway seems a bit farfetched does it not.

36

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:46:54
"Conservative sources alleged that they had been told that there may have been "a mistake" made in Mr Brown's expense claims"
37

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:47:07
Resign in disgrace Brown
38

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 04:47:31
The Labour party are no better than common criminals
39

FrancesP,

26/03/2008 04:49:37
#1. AM2 - "only 24% of people in Scotland said that they don’t also consider themselves to be British". We've had this argument before, but don't you think an even greater figure in Norway or Sweden would also consider themselves to be 'Scandinavian' or 'Nordic'? Such a finding would not in any way indicate a wish to give up their own countries' national independence.

More generally, the next time you present us with a barrage of poll findings, could you perhaps give us a link or else provide us with the full figures as they were originally published, because I've noticed a persistent tendency for you to lump together different figures in a way that conveniently suits your case. Needless to say, you also tend to gloss over the many, many findings that are less helpful from a unionist perspective.

Finally, did you notice that all three opposition leaders on Newsnight virtually ruled out a referendum on the commission's proposals? Weren't you telling us all a few weeks ago that would be completely unthinkable? It seems like the SNP are the only true democrats after all.
40

Former Unionist,

Fife 26/03/2008 05:03:21
After reading the Telegraph article I am now finished with the Labour party and will support the move towards independence.

I grew up in a mining village and voted with what I thought were the right intentions to help those at the bottom of the pile to a better existence.

Clearly with the lack of social mobility even under the Labour party, the wickedness in exploiting expenses even at Priministerial level, you do begin to understand why Scotland continues to be the poor and sick man of Europe.

I hope other's follow suit. You can't trust politicians if they feel immune and use the States money to hide their greed. They have taken away the trust of me and I hope many others.

41

Former Unionist,

26/03/2008 05:08:03
I never thought I would see the day a Labour Primeminister would claim 55k for a house he got for free, at the expense of families who work God knows how many hours for the minimum wage only to fund his greed.

You couldn't have scripted a better way to bring down a PM.

Even the Tories would not do this and it looks like David Cameron, out of all the leaders, has acted with the greatest integrity. That does surprise me.
42

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 05:18:05
"But there are major difficulties in this field. If Sir Kenneth decides that all Scottish tax revenues should be assigned, then what happens to North Sea oil revenue? If the majority of these receipts are assigned to Scotland, wouldn't that leave the Treasury short of cash?"

Finally Hamish has come clean on the fact that the UK has been supporting itself on the back of Scottish Revenue. Are we finally seeing the end of the Unionist lie that Scotland can't support itself?
43

Jonathan,

UAE 26/03/2008 05:22:53
Why would any transparent government not want the issues debated in public and decisions made on merit and voting power? If the political ground in Scotland has shifted perhaps it was put into reverse yesterday.

44

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 05:28:58
Galactic

Once again you display, for all to see, your introverted world view.

Somoene who has met a partner from another country cannot go and live with them in that country or they have 'abandoned' the country of their birth?

I know that Americans have a rather narrow world view as your postings always show (your either with us or against us) :-

China = evil

UK = good

Scotland = bad

Alex Salmond = the devil

A multi issue election = a single issue referendum

Australia = Switzerland's neighbour

You are a very bad ambassador for your country which is, thankfully, not completely habited by fools.

Look up 'pluralism' in the dictionary. Your rhetoric about me is completely at odds with your high and mighty attitude towards Scottish self expression.

Be gone troll

45

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 05:31:08
"The scope here is limited by European regulations which forbid variations to certain taxes, such as business taxes, within a member state."

Another great argument why Independance is the best option going forward. Their is nothing like a Unionist thinking out loud to strenghten the argument for Independance. Thanks again Hamish.
46

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 05:31:31
#45 Kampung

I agree, that lie has been debunked.

Most recently in The Herald and by Oxford University I believe.

Ask AM2 for the links.
47

,

26/03/2008 05:33:19
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48

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

It will never happen 26/03/2008 05:44:49
Independance is a myth. The Scots don't have the guts to follow it through.
49

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 05:53:10
Galactic Hemeroid.

"People who abandon their land of birth like U, where they were raised and educated, have show no respect, and have no gratitude for their ancestors."

You never cease to amaze with your level of ignorance, the entire population of the US are either immigrants or the descendants of immigrants. I know many Americans and I can honestly say that I never met one as stupid as you. Please stop talking about America, you create the false impression that everybody in America is as stupid as you.
50

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 26/03/2008 06:24:42
#29 Ian Paisley (RIP)

So, do you want the Edinburgh gov. to get all N. Sea oil production taxation from the line north of the Tweed, and you still want Scotland to get a share of, say, BP & Shell's corporation tax (companies registered in England, not Scotland)?
51

terry osser,

morden 26/03/2008 06:31:45
and mr bean doubled income tax for low paid workers from 10-20%
52

,

26/03/2008 06:37:35
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53

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 06:44:26
I want all tax taken 'ring fenced' that are produced from the area that is determined by the law of the sea to have been exploited from Scottish territorial waters hence the metering point at either refineries in Scotland or elsewhere. This is the way it is calculated to see how much oil has been produced.

Heres a question? Why are BP etc HQ'ed in London and not in the area of the UK where they are most active. Why is the petroleum exchange in London? Why doesn't Scotland entice HQ's away from London on a tax benefit system - forgot we are not allowed to compete with London, Luxembourg, Ireland, etc etc etc, so we don't even get the higher skilled jobs relating to oil like law, accounting etc etc

Given the fact we are 1 of 4 native speaking English countries, I do find it strange that Luxembourg is home to the hedge funds and other higher benefit and skilled businesses where Scotland gets the back office pish. Even Irelands financial hub is made up of higher skilled finacial jobs.

Like I say, if you sub contract out your economy don't expect much in return apart from the flotsam
54

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 06:54:34
Brown caught taking from the poor to give to himself now he's using the poors money to help hide the fact.

Gordon please say that you didn't claim 55k for a second home when the taxpayer already gave you a free one?

Why were Tony Blair's records destroyed when a Freedom of Information request was made?

The people demand an answer!
55

inoui,

Bangkok 26/03/2008 06:58:27
Like pulling teeth! Get on with the job.
56

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 07:00:47
Galactic Imbecile

Are you under the impression that everybody who immigrated to the US prior to 1960 was fleeing war and famine? Though that may be true for as small minority the vast bulk emigrated for economic reasons.

Since by your logic all immigrants are traitors, then Traitors Day must be an American Public Holiday. How do you celebrate it? Do you all get together and burn the flags of the countries your ancestors came from?
57

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

Yes Gordon 26/03/2008 07:02:10
why the 55k and Tony's records being destroyed?

Please explain in full

No wonder Wendy is such a close mate of the Primeministers.

You work hard every week for the little you get then have it taxed by stealth so that these crooks can rip you off even more.

The electorate demand transparency or your resignation.

I will tell my children how the Labour party were the enemy of the working class as they systematically lied, cheated and stole from the working man.
58

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 07:06:15
#56
You seem to be under the impression that a Federal System is some sort of panacea that will end peoples desire for Scottish Indepenance.

Canada has a Federal System but it has not stopped people in Quebec pushing for Independance.
59

,

26/03/2008 07:13:24
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60

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

26/03/2008 07:13:29
63

Well said Bob.

I would also like to salute their stupidi*y
61

,

26/03/2008 07:18:08
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62

eric,

Lothian 26/03/2008 07:21:13
If one scratched the surface of AM2s % and statistics,You would see the real picture.
Most of my family on Both sides of the Border
thought Scotland was safe in the Union,And held the veiw Labour were the only ones to vote for because generations before them always voted them.Then i scratched the surface only to find the ones in Scotland voted SNP and the ones in England are now going to vote Tory.!
63

morris,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 07:32:59
Devolution Mk I did not satisfy the aspirations of the people,and neither will this latest Mk II concoction.
Its all designed to delay independence and get the oil revenues safely into Westminster and you my fellow scots are off your heads for allowing it.

It will be less devolution than before ,removing the powers which allow objection to Scotland being used as a nuclear power generation facility,nuclear dump and home of Trident.
Its a case of mind over matter,Westminster disnae mind and you dinnae matter!
Oil out Nuclear sh you know what in .
Its no more than you deserve of course.
STUPID DOES AS STUPID IS
64

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 07:35:14
#68 Eric

I hope the dastardly Scottish side of your family are hanging their heads in shame for even thinking of voting SNP.

Are you planning never to talk with your English rellies?

Do they think you are a bunch of haggis munching 'seperatists'

I do of course say those things in jest but some unionists would suggest that you must HATE your English relations!!, they say the SNP is all about hating our neighbours, they cannot understand that a schism has not appeared in your family. They hate people like you as you simply state a reasoned position, no hate, no dislike, no lack of intelligence.

We must fight their blatant twisting with the truth. Everytime they wheel out the 'SNP hates England' line I suggest those of us who support the SNP and have friendly relations with our neighbours (98% of all nationalists that I have met) throw it straight back at them.

I AM AN SNP SUPPORTER AND HAVE MANY ENGLISH FRIENDS, THE ENGLISH ARE NOT OUR ENEMY BUT THE UNIONISTS AND THEIR LACKIES, DO NOT DARE TO MISREPRESENT MY VIEWS.
65

Brian M,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 07:36:42
It's been stated that Sir Kenneth will not be paid for chairing this best wee committee in the world, I wonder if he will get 'expenses' and allowances instead
66

eric,

26/03/2008 07:41:12
71 True.
67

morris,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 07:43:30
72
I would think so,and everybody in the political arena knows that salaries/fees are chicken feed compared to expenses !
We have MEPs who travel to Brussels/Strasbourg for less than some Labour Mps claim from Westminster!

Rest assured the Prof will be well paid for his services. Thats why we are told he wont be!
68

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh. 26/03/2008 07:43:43
#18 - I bet youu`re an Aberdeen F.C.supporter?
69

morris,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 07:45:22
71
G' Day Dougie and absolutely correct of course. Keep up the Good work !
70

Phil C,

26/03/2008 07:45:52
We don't need a review, or a commission or any more wasteful hot air being spent discussing the union. Decades of misrule and abuse by the London unionist parties, supported by their egocentric Scottish representatives mainly from Labour, have shown that the only positive option is independence.

Brown and his dribbling chums will continue to procrastinate. The more we hear from them, the more people want to break from Westminster. Someone should tell them, 'when you're in a hole, stop digging!'

We who care about the future of our nation must continue to build on the ever-growing number who's eyes are being opened to the huge possibilities and underused resources available in Scotland- particularly it's downtrodden people.

AM2s arguments and usual silly figures about being British are just irrelevant claptrap. Of course we're British. We can still be British (geographically) after independence. In the main, we are not anti-English, just pro-Scottish.
71

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 07:46:42

#1 Writes:-
“Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom is, I think, perfectly secure.”

That will be why you spend so much time and effort on here trying to convince others of the security of your views?

For someone apparently so convinced by the power of your own arguments, you curiously appear to feel the need to repeat the same points ad nauseum.

It appears to me that the individual you are striving the most to convince that your beloved Union is in no danger…………………….is yourself.


1 year ago no Unionist party had any appetite for a review of the powers of the Scottish Parliament. Now they are all falling over themselves in an attempt to set up a vehicle in order to increase the powers of the Parliament.

They told us “devolution will kill the SNP stone dead”, now they are saying, “increased powers will kill the SNP government stone dead”.

Dream on!

Drip, drip, drip,…………………….
72

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 26/03/2008 07:49:17
It i9s obvious to anuone outside the UK to see that there is a screaming need for a British parliament seperate from an English parliament.
73

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 07:50:24
#69 Daniel

You are being a little generous with your time for Galactic.

I would hope that the SNP view the ex-pat community as a valuable resource, if I could expand a little:-

I am 35 years old, I have a wife and three kids, I am liquid - I run my own company, I have been away from Scotland for 10 years because my wife is an Aussie.

I have never considered moving back to Scotland as we have 3 children under 5. If I did not have children I would be back in Scotland.

The vast majority of ex-pats I know under 40 are not economic or lifestyle migrants but have a partner who hails from here.

We choose to live here because of the family tie, this is coupled with the opportunities available here which haven't existed historically in Scotland, however things are changing in Scotland and that excites me and other ex-pats.

The SNP should view us a source of experience and capital. In a changing global world Scotland's greatest export could become a very profitable import.

Your walkabout analogy is spot on.

As a side note:- my cousin in Edinburgh is married to an Australian. She has not, to my knowledge, ever been labelled in any negative way by other Aussies.

74

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 07:51:40
#76 evening Morris - thank you
75

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/03/2008 07:51:51
#53

Since BP and Shell operate globally through incorporated subsidiaries in the countries where they have operations they would probably chose to set up seperate subsidiaries for Scotland. If however the Scottish Government was able to make a strong economic case of why they would be advantaged by moving their corporate presence to Edinburgh, Aberdeen or Glasgow, then I think they would give it serious consideration.
Companies loyalties are to balance sheets and shareholders not effemeral notions like Union.
76

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 26/03/2008 07:56:59
#18

Well said. You could add

13. No annual handout of £26 billion (pro-rata) from Westminster

14. No more lucrative defence contracts, as Westminster has said it wouldn't award them to a foreign country.


77

spiderman,

Argyll 26/03/2008 08:02:04
The creation of this commission by the parties not in power in Scotland goes against the fundamental principles of democracy. Excluding any consideration of independence makes an objective view of Scotland's options impossible. It's a travesty which Scotland's public can see through from the start. Sir Kenneth, once a rightly respected medic, has entered an area outside his field of competence and he - and the University of Glasgow where he works - should be ashamed.
78

Ken,

26/03/2008 08:05:15
Congrats AM2, second day in a row that you get the first word! You must be really sad, indeed your comments bare that out. You can quote 'your' figures till the cows come home, you know they are rubbish.
As for this unionist commission, it is an insult for one unionist to tell us what we want. Give us a referendum, let the people speak.
79

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 08:09:51
PJ Walker

Hand out of 26 billion - you are dreaming - you have swallowed the lies hook,line and sinker.

No lucrative defence contracts? Westminister spends billions with 'foreigners' at the moment. Specail (and illegal treatment) for us Scots for having the temerity to plot our own course?

Ok - I think we understand (lies, threats and illegality) - anything goes to stop the nasty 'gnats'!

80

PJ Walker,

Dubai 26/03/2008 08:15:14
DD, Brisbane

No, just stating the correct figure.

81

John S,

26/03/2008 08:18:20
Looking at the movement of powers in both directions, Westminster will want no hinderance to the Trident missile replacement system (defence and security) also the building of the new generation of nuclear power stations (national energy policy) within Scotland.
82

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/03/2008 08:21:29
#88

Got a link for that?

I absolutely dispute your figure.

Care to expand on your 'no foreigners' line?
83

,

26/03/2008 08:21:50
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84

paulr,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 08:22:26
As the people of scotland have never been given the opportunity to vote on independence, and I dont mean all the immigrants who have flooded into the country in recent years, how can they say that 77% of scots do not want it?
85

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 26/03/2008 08:22:35
DD, in Oz,

If you need it officially:

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=321029&NewsAreaID=2
86

Scotland to prosper...,

26/03/2008 08:22:43
"Like the majority of the Scottish people, I very much see myself as part of the UK, but a Scot within that,"

"Seventy-seven per cent of the Scottish public don't think independence is the right way forward. All of the work over the last few years makes it pretty clear that's not an issue right now. Certainly, for this commission, it will not be an issue we will be discussing.”

These comments give the game away even before the commission begins. Sir Kenneth openly admits to being a unionist and point blank refuses to consider Independence as an option. If this is not an indication of how just how concerned Lab/Lib/Tories about Independence, by installing someone who undoubtedly will reach the whatever conclusion Westminster want, then I don’t know what is.

And to not even consider Independence as an option makes the whole commission’s findings void by default. If this were an academic report that was to be graded, the student would get slated for not considering all the options, its simple common sense! Oh wait I forgot who was behind the commission, Lab/Lib/Tory, not an ounce between them!
87

izzie,

dundee 26/03/2008 08:24:01
call it what you will this commission/review is further
humiliation for Wendy Alexander It shows Gordon Brown is pulling the strings and Nicol/Annabelle/David and co are being manipulated from Westminster.Does anyone seriously think the Lib/Dems will support a RETURN of powers to Westminster?
88

Phil C,

26/03/2008 08:24:46
PJ #84 & 88

Just one wee problem with your 'correct figure'....

You've overlooked the revenues flowing from Scotland to Westminster!! You're building your sandcastles without sand!....

And you can keep the warmongering in London thanks!
89

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 26/03/2008 08:27:51
And the defence contract issues:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/-Scots-defence-industry-will.3902723.jp

90

Doh,

26/03/2008 08:30:26
#92

The people of Scotland get the opportunity to vote for independance at every general election - they just need to vote SNP.

We dont because we have been part of Britain for longer than New York has been part of the USA.

Or longer than Australia has been settled by white settlers (usually ex-pats urging us to independance whilst presumably not supporting returning Oz to the aboriginies). Funny old world.
91

thinking,

Scotland 26/03/2008 08:30:50
#18 Isn't it more like 60 million in England?

Before more is said about independence perhaps what we should be asking is, 'what has devolution done for us?'
1. 129 MSPs with inflated salaries, expenses and gold plated pensions (on top of MPs)all at taxpayers expense
2. A very expensive monstrosity of a building at taxpayers expense
3. Numerous unelected, expensive Quangos. Again at taxpayers expense.
4. A strong perception of racism that wasn't much in evidence before You always get some cranks who are divisive no matter what but that appears to have increased (I have lived both sides of the border and have family both sides)
5. etc. etc. etc!!!!!
92

donald,

glasgow 26/03/2008 08:30:55
Is there anyone dolly dimple enough not to know the result of Labour Commissions in advance? Even Bendy predicted her Labour Inquiries into themselves.
93

dyon gollins's back,

Brussels 26/03/2008 08:33:38
Look behind this effort and who do you find lurking in the background - two former high ranking Scottish Office officials both in office at the time of the 1997/1998 negotiations - one as head of the Scottish Office the other then or later in the 10 Downing Street policy unit - and doubtless still (continuously) in touch with their former colleagues on Regent Road and both currently working at Glesca Uni'- conclusion? - this caper, therefore, is very likely being run by the anti-independence elements within the Scottish Executive and is designed to stymie Oor Alec's ambitions before they become too popular with the lieges - no accident that Calman went to London after he was CMO in Edinburgh - there may well be other connections if you dig deep enough!!
94

Phil C,

26/03/2008 08:35:44
#100

There was a nail there and you hit it on the head. This whole thing's a waste of their time and our money- theiving, lying gits!
95

beckypumps1,

Fife 26/03/2008 08:36:01
Call me old fashioned but I thought the SNP had the most seats and should set the agenda, this commission/review displays arrogance on the 3 smaller parties’ in Scotland.
96

The Strategist,

26/03/2008 08:39:19
And as everyone wakes up today to learn that an Indian company has bought two of the most iconic British car companies for a mere £1bn how proud will that make them?

The UK is is in terminal industrial and economic decline. Does Scotland really want to get dragged down with it?
97

Hugo of Garven,

26/03/2008 08:40:21
FEDERATION ?

Several people have suggested Federation as a possible outcome of this unionist commission.

I hope the commission will give it serious consideration as it will need to ask many of the questions to be considered if (when?) Scotland gets independence.
98

Graeme2,

Aberdeen 26/03/2008 08:42:22
Ms Alexander said: "I think ten years on is the right point to review whether the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament are properly managed."

I think after 300 years for the "Treaty" it is about time we as Scotland reviewed whether the powers ceded to Westminister have been properly managed. But as we live in a Unionist political dictatorship will this be just a forlorne hope? Ms Alexander and her bunch of rouges to answer please?
99

Calum Crubag,

26/03/2008 08:42:23
Why have an unneccesary tier of govt. in Westminster? It bleeds taxpayer's money.

Let's make do with Holyrood.
100

tomislav,

UK 26/03/2008 08:52:09
Galactic ,,, Good comments mate but don’t rise to clowns like these you see here, if you notice most of them don’t even live here, their foreigners, and with some luck they might learn to keep their noses out of our business. Its always the case with articles like this, we are sure to suffer comments of useless twaddle from these nickerless kilties,,,, Their independence bile make me sick to my stomach. I wonder just exactly what do we need to do to finally get it into their thick skulls that the vast majority of Scots do not want independence, ever ,,, maybe tattoo it on their foreheads (lets face it, there’s plenty of room) .

I would tell them to shut up, or if they cant, then do us all a favour and catch a boat to somewhere nice and don’t come back, but happily most of them have done it already
101

tomislav,

UK 26/03/2008 08:53:17
Calum ,,, dont you mean Hollywood
102

,

26/03/2008 08:57:05
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103

Haggismaker,

Baltasound 26/03/2008 08:58:48
"If this comes up with anything that increases the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament, Scotland is going to look different from the rest of the United Kingdom," said Professor John Curtice.

This 'professor' should maybe pull his head out of the sand.

Bye the way, what does the rest of the UK look like?
104

Edward,

26/03/2008 09:11:35
Short Bio on Professor Sir Kenneth Calman
He has been Chancellor of the University of Glasgow, his alma mater, since January 2006.
Calman graduated from the University of Glasgow BSc, MB ChB, PhD and MD and lectured in Surgery before his appointment to the Cancer Research Chair in Glasgow in 1974. He became Professor and Dean of Postgraduate Medical Education in 1984.
He was Chief Medical Officer at the Department of Health from 1991, a period that included the BSE crisis, and before that Chief Medical Officer for Scotland at the Scottish Office from 1989. He was made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath in 1996.
He is the former Vice-Chancellor and Warden of Durham University, a position he held from 1998 until 2006. His time as vice-chancellor saw the expansion and integration of the campus at Stockton-on-Tees, with two colleges being established there in 2001 and the campus being renamed Queen's Campus during the 2003 Golden Jubilee celebrations. There has also been a return to the teaching of medicine at Durham, with students doing their pre-clinical studies at Queen's Campus before transferring to Newcastle to complete the clinical part of their degrees. In 2006, a new college in Durham opened, Josephine Butler College.
He is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal Society of Edinburgh.He enjoys collecting cartoons and sundials
105

AJ Fife,

26/03/2008 09:12:38
These unionist bozos don't realise it, but Mr Salmond has them ALL dancing to the SNP tune now!!

More devolved power = another step closer to independence

I wonder if Mr Salmond knew it was gonna be this easy?
106

scottish person,

paisley 26/03/2008 09:15:01
I dont care if he is superman! He is not interested in Scotland, neither are the rest of the dummies.
107

Oliver Cromwell,

England 26/03/2008 09:19:20
Don't English people have a say. The majority of us want Scottish independence then we will have our country back; the present settlement gives Scottish MPs votes over laws that do not affect their constituents this is very unfair.Our youngsters now have to borrow money to pay university fees because of Scottish votes as just one example.I think the current approach that Scotland diecides for itself how the UK will be organised will not stand the test of time.
108

JimC,

Kilmarnock 26/03/2008 09:20:33
Bryan Taylors question at the press conference was classic, the "Independence question" that is. O yes said Calman, but its not part of my remit LOL. What he means is that its not part of Brown's remit given to Wendy to pass on. And already even before its off the ground we see splits, it's not a two way street says Nicol, no son its a a Downing Street initiative get the facts right. And there you have it, the three stooges and their bit man, still shell shocked from last May.
109

scottish person,

paisley 26/03/2008 09:23:07
#116 You are quite right, we have hated the english having decisions over Scottish affairs Scottish empees should not be allowed to do the same. However is it not obvious to you that this is the reason they dont want independence. Oh how does it feel to be told what to do by another nation, we all know up here.
110

JimC,

Kilmarnock 26/03/2008 09:23:44
#116 No its because the majority of English voters voted Labour at the last election. If you don't like Uni fees then vote for the party that will get rid of them next time.
111

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 26/03/2008 09:33:28
#91 David Macvicar A very clear exposition. You are right - the Council of Europe (the senior European organisation with 46 member countries) does indeed have a mechanism for monitoring the democratic standards of its member states. It was as a result of this scrutiny that the Scottish and Welsh parliaments were set up. This monitoring system is permanent, and can be invoked at any time in the event of a regression to undemocratic practices by any European government. These standards are also maintained by the 56-member Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) through its Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights.

Innumerable acts of international law make it perfectly clear that the Scottish people have the inalienable right to decide their own future "without external interference". An OSCE conference underlined this law in unmistakable terms:

"(The participating states) confirm that, by virtue of the principle of equal rights and self determination of peoples, and in conformity with the relevant provisions of the (Helsinki) Final Act, all peoples always have the right, in full freedom, to determine, when and as they wish, their internal and external political status, without external interference, and to pursue as they wish their political, economic and cultural development. (Questions Relating to Security in Europe, No. 4)"

Note that this right is held by "peoples", not governments or legislatures, which can often be corrupt and oppressive towards their own peoples. This is confirmed by innumerable other instruments of international law.

112

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 26/03/2008 09:33:42
#57 Gregorf
"all oil from Scottish territorial waters"

Scotland has no territorial waters. Scotland is not a Sovereign State within the EU. The UKIS a state and DOES have territorial waters, within which it has oil rights. IF Scotland could become a sovereign state it could negotiate territorial rights from the UK and Europe. But that's a lot of 'ifs'. You and other nationalists are falling into the fantasy that Scotland already IS a sovereign state with territorial rights. It is fine to project that as a future political aim, but it is sheer fantasy to pretend that you already have those rights.
Scotland does not have territorial rights. It has theoretical rights which 'could' or 'might' be negotiated if and when it voted to become a separate state.
113

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 26/03/2008 09:36:18
Independance is coming whether u want it or not. And I sincerely hope those who are resisting leave the country as soon as Independance is achieved. Good riddance to bad rubbish...
114

Alan B,

26/03/2008 09:37:16
On newsnight Wendy was dreadful, only Nicol Stephans for once came across as if he knew what he was doing. Why critise the snp national conversation saying the commission is independent when it clearly isn't.

Asked basic questions she seemed unable to answer anything. Strenghtening the scottish parliament is a positive thing but she seemed unable to articulate a positive message.

2 particular things were noticable. While Nicol Stephans ruled out a referendum for more powers and hence rejected independence as an additional question. Wendy did not seemed to know what she believe appart from not wanting to give the people the choice of their destination via a referendum.

She also has got herself into a mess over tax. As Brewer asked her, u have argued for more tax powers for a while and now u have ruled most out as not being within eu law.



115

HEN BROON 5,

26/03/2008 09:41:54
Global warming me rrrs, had to dig my way to the RR this morning,glad I had the Webasto installed it was nice and toastie when I climbed in.

What a lovely happy beautiful nation this is. I feel so content. Over the past 20 years I have watched as the SNAP ground away at the foundations of the unionist vote and now they are completely undermined, what a bunch of stuttering fools the opposition were last night on Newsnight, they are snookered and they know it. They are all dancing to Alex Salmonds tune and he is playing them like a fiddle.

The unionists claim that the SNP have no mandate for there conversation, erm the SNP are the government I would say there mandate is very strong.

The unionists claim the SNP are wasting taxpayers money. Erm so the public enquiry into the Trumped Golf affair is the best way to do it is it? So dire has it been that they even tried to drag the Aviemore application in to it, not part of the remit, until they found the smell wafting of it was a Labour smell.

They calim that the SNP conversation is invalid because only independence is an option. So why do they not include independence in their remit, it is mainstream Scottish politics now?

Double standards.

The SNP are making huge progress when you consider the biased unionist media ranged against them.

You only have to look at the rabid activity on here by the insomniac fanatic troll AM2/ Highland Nighty/ etc/etc/ we know them all now, so many that some are forgotten dancing to the SNP tune like mad marionettes what fantastic entertainment, there every spluttering post another SNP vote.

ALBA GU BRATH.
116

HEN BROON 5,

26/03/2008 09:41:55
Global warming me rrrs, had to dig my way to the RR this morning,glad I had the Webasto installed it was nice and toastie when I climbed in.

What a lovely happy beautiful nation this is. I feel so content. Over the past 20 years I have watched as the SNAP ground away at the foundations of the unionist vote and now they are completely undermined, what a bunch of stuttering fools the opposition were last night on Newsnight, they are snookered and they know it. They are all dancing to Alex Salmonds tune and he is playing them like a fiddle.

The unionists claim that the SNP have no mandate for there conversation, erm the SNP are the government I would say there mandate is very strong.

The unionists claim the SNP are wasting taxpayers money. Erm so the public enquiry into the Trumped Golf affair is the best way to do it is it? So dire has it been that they even tried to drag the Aviemore application in to it, not part of the remit, until they found the smell wafting of it was a Labour smell.

They calim that the SNP conversation is invalid because only independence is an option. So why do they not include independence in their remit, it is mainstream Scottish politics now?

Double standards.

The SNP are making huge progress when you consider the biased unionist media ranged against them.

You only have to look at the rabid activity on here by the insomniac fanatic troll AM2/ Highland Nighty/ etc/etc/ we know them all now, so many that some are forgotten dancing to the SNP tune like mad marionettes what fantastic entertainment, there every spluttering post another SNP vote.

ALBA GU BRATH.
117

shivago8,

livingston 26/03/2008 09:43:07
The sight of Wendy,Nicol and Annabelle alongside yer man turned my stomach.
Hear no evil, see no evil, speak lots of evil wi the man from the NHS ARE GOING TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY WORSE.
118

Edward,

26/03/2008 09:43:18
#121 Tweedmouth
Just a little correction to your remark:'IF Scotland could become a sovereign state it could negotiate territorial rights from the UK'
IF Scotland were to gain independence, this would in effect mean the dissalution of the UK under the 1707 treaty and act. The title and meaning of 'the United Kingdom' only means Scotland and England. Take away the Kingdom of Scotland, your left with the Kingdom of England. Therefore the negotiation, if any, of territorial rights would involve England, but would be under the UN to arbitrate, in case of any dispute. Which Im sure there wouldnt be
119

HEN BROON 5,

26/03/2008 09:44:51
Apologies for twice posting and typos but it is worth reading twice going for some Langlauf, of to the hills.
120

Alan B,

26/03/2008 09:45:35
AM2 ur logic gets more bizzare and twisted. It is also noticable when u stated what u think powers should lie u have not mentioned the areas that are up for discussion ie tax, transport, social security etc.

it is almost keep it so vague that when the unionist parties come up with a solution u can back that because u will not have public offered an alternative. Maybe that is because u had to row back so much after stating in the summer that scotland could match irelands economic performance if we were to lower corporation tax and then found that it was not going to be on the table from the unionist parties. it would also maybe break eu law and hence ur own solution to scotlands economic woes were going mean we would have to be independent.
121

Oliver Cromwell,

England 26/03/2008 09:46:23
Dear JimC #119 The majority of voters in England voted for the Conservative party not the Labour party at the last General Election. Labour is in power because of Scottish Labour MPs who can vote on matters that do not affect their constituents and Welsh Labopur MPs. We have a constitutional balls up.That is why the issue of Scottish independence, which I think would be better for all of us, needs a UK solution.
122

Alan B,

26/03/2008 09:47:37
Also
The fact is the majority of people want more power to the SP. The majority of people are unhappy with the current arrangements. The majority of people feel let down by the lack of power of the scottish parliament.

While the most favoured option of the public seems to be more powers within the union. The question will be if dev max is not on the table, what would those who support this option have as a second choice.

Neither Wendy nor Goldie seem to want to consider dev max. Even the scotsman in its article does not even put fiscal autonomy as an option or dev max.
123

Angus Ogg,

26/03/2008 09:48:14
Help Ma Boab, What A Photie !!!

The Good

The Bad

&

The Ugly.

Guess which one is which ? ? ?
124

,

26/03/2008 09:50:08
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125

Alan B,

26/03/2008 09:50:16
#130 Oliver Cromwell "The majority of voters in England voted for the Conservative party not the Labour party at the last General Election. Labour is in power because of Scottish Labour MPs who can vote on matters that do not affect their constituents and Welsh Labopur MPs"

That is incorrect. While the tories got more votes in england ie won the popular vote they did not get more seats in england. So they lost england to labour. A redrawing of the seats for the next election should bring closer the relationship between number of seats won and votes.
126

Alan B,

26/03/2008 09:53:34
Can any unionist justify why

1)none of the unionist party leaders were willing to offer a referendum on more powers to SP.
2)all refused to have an independence question on such a referendum

I can understand someone arguing for the union, but to not give the people the choice of there destiny seems undemocratic.

Also how can powers be granted via a referendum and removed without them a position labour seems to favour?
127

,

26/03/2008 09:57:52
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128

steve52,

Kinfauns 26/03/2008 09:57:56
Dont know which way I would vote if granted the chance but must say I am moving towards independance owing to the actions of the so called unionists and their Westminster masters.

Why is independance not on the agenda? What are these people feart of? What gives them the right to ostracize a large section of the Scottish people by refusing to include independance?

Another talking shop which we, the taxpayer, are footing the bill for.
129

Smutley,

Embra 26/03/2008 09:58:58
# 131: "The fact is the majority of people want more power to the SP."

What's your evidence for this? (Serious question: not playing games here)
130

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 26/03/2008 09:59:07
#136. The powers were granted via a referendum because the devolution bill was implemented with the Council of Europe and the entire foreign diplomatic corps in London breathing down the Blair government's neck. If Gordon Brown believes that that situation is any different now, then he is mistaken. Nowadays there are such things as international sanctions that can be taken against any government that fails to maintain democratic standards.

131

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 26/03/2008 10:02:27
THe main reason that the Unionist PArties are opposing a vote on their proposals against Independence is that Unionist Parties accept that Sovereignty lies with Parliament and not with the People. They Support a political system that denies those who do not believe in an unelected head of state from sitting in parliament, a system that openly discriminates against one section of the population for their religion, and denies them the right to be PM. What we have at the moment is a totally undemocratic system of Government. Not every vote for a unionist party is necessarily a vote for the union and if the unionist parties are honest, they would admit this, just as every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. The SNP are being being more fair minded by offering a referendum on this issue that their unionist opponents because they accept sovereignty lies with the people
132

,

26/03/2008 10:07:36
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133

Alan B,

26/03/2008 10:08:04
#139 The opinion polls that have shown consistently that scots want more power for the parliament. somewhere in the region of 70-80% so with a good margin for error.

And yes i would support a referendum on different options as u are correct in ur implication that opinion polls are a guide.

i was replying to AM2 who said
"And in terms of the constitutional arrangements themselves, when presented with a full range of constitutional models, only about 23% plump for independence. By contrast, around 65% favour some form of devolution, with most of those having a general predisposition towards the level of powers which would create increased accountability at Holyrood"
134

Miss H,

26/03/2008 10:12:11
Hey AM2 yesterday you said that the SNP were trying to limit peoples choices by only offering the option of the status quo or independence. I said that was not the case and this morning (if you listen to GMS) Nicola Sturgeon confirmed that. The SNP are quite happy for a question on enhanced devolution to go on the ballot paper once the unionist parties have agreed what it is they want.

Last night however all three unionist leaders were asked if they would put their proposals to the people in a referendum. Nicol Stephen said no outright. Wendy Alexander and Annabelle Goldie said it was unlikely.

So I think you are going to have to withdraw your statement that the SNP wants to limit people choices and acknowledge that in fact the SNP is the only party which is fully committed to enabling the people of Scotland to decide their own future directly through a referendum.
135

John S,

26/03/2008 10:12:34
Will those who are consulted by the (was) Commission then Review now Commission be reminded/warned not to mention that I (sssh independence) word, I suppose they will be vetted as true blue unionists we cannot have moles asking stupid questions about I (sssh independence) or that other word which starts with an R (sssh referendum)
Sir Kenneth's review will look at everything but independence, so he will be ignoring the 27%-40% who want independence but this is democracy Labour Party style with the 1979 referendum in mind
136

Auckland Arab2,

26/03/2008 10:13:48
This talking shop will agree on nothing. It will come up with nothing concrete or constructive and will spend years in idle debate achieving absolutely nothing. I would call it a quango but that would somehow legitimise or glamorise it. Its just a sideshow that will quickly slip from view as it will serve no purpose and people will quickly grow tired of it. After all, the horse has bolted so forming a committee to discuss lock sizes seems a bit pointless to me.
137

Sgurr,

26/03/2008 10:14:25
144 - Since AM2 handed back his pager, he has been decidedly "off message" - I wonder if the Labour Party won't pay for his blackberry subscription as a result of their funding crisis/dodgy expenses problems?!
138

Oliver Cromwell,

England 26/03/2008 10:16:17
Dear Alan B #134. a Professor from the University of Strathclyde pointed out that it took 27000 votes per Labour MP, 42000 votes per Conservative MP and over 110000 votes per LiberalDemocrat MP for each Westminster seat at the last election.I still think this is an almighty balls up.
139

Alan B,

26/03/2008 10:18:11
#144 Miss H "Nicol Stephen said no outright. Wendy Alexander and Annabelle Goldie said it was unlikely."

When did they say it was unlikely. Wendy seemed struck dumb by the question and waffled about not supporting independence. She just seemed unprepared for the question and had not coherent answer. Goldie just sidestepped the question.

As such unlikely was the implication, but they were not even that positive about offering a referendum.
140

Miss H,

26/03/2008 10:19:47
139 Numerous opinion polls and surveys over the past 8 years or so.

I don't keep them but no doubt AM2 can provide!

It's not really in doubt that most people want the Parliament to have more responsibility - the debate is about where that stops, whether we go all the way to independence or re-jiggle the devolution settlement while maintaining the Union.

141

Smutley,

26/03/2008 10:20:48
#143 - Thanks Alan. Would appreciate it if you could be arsed posting some links. The most recent one I can find is from the Herald/System Three in late 2007, and it's about Independence not additional Parliamentary powers.

I just get the feeling that it's the MSPs who want more power, not necessarily the people who want them to have more power.
142

Miss H,

26/03/2008 10:22:33
149 She did say she thought it was unlikely. Annabelle waffled on about devolution being the status quo so there was no need for a referendum. If what they propose however is the status quo they really will be playing into the hands of the SNP!
143

Alan B,

26/03/2008 10:23:02
#148 Oliver Cromwell "I still think this is an almighty balls up."

I think it is more than that. Labour have carved the seats up to their advantage. Thatcher also played her part from what i remember. The tories were trouncing labour in england at the time and tories allowed labour to get a very good deal when the seats were carved up then.

It is amazing all the critism in the uk about george bush not winning the popular vote in the first election but winning because of their college system but their has been a wimper about the democratic deficit in our own elections.
144

Allan Murray,

Liverpool 26/03/2008 10:29:04
Its funny how if someone is in favour of the union the Scottish nationalist call them stooges and other names.
Just goes to show how pathetic the nationalist in Scotland really are.
Nationalist view seems to be its my way or no way basically you act loike spoilt kids. There are others involved in the Scottish independence voice.
whether or not you nationlist like it or not Westminster will have a say in the whole issue of Scottish. because independence will also involve the rest of the uk.
Nationalist need to grow up and except other peoples view even if it does conform to there views.
145

Alan B,

26/03/2008 10:30:37
#151 Smutley

I just did a google for YouGov (was the first polling company that came to mind). AM2 seems to keep links to all the polls.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/category/scotland
146

Prof,

26/03/2008 10:40:06
Since the last election the unionist parties have been running around like headless chickens. The Liberals reneged on their policy to support the largest party in Parliament and the labour party disappeared in haze of dishonesty and sleaze. Even the business heads have deserted this gang of four, who look increasingly like Mugabe and his mates
147

Allan(handofgod137),

26/03/2008 10:40:38
"His appointment will inevitably lead to more powers for the Scottish Parliament"

Why?
148

,

26/03/2008 10:46:09
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Reason:
149

,

26/03/2008 10:49:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
150

John south of Soutra,

26/03/2008 10:49:37
Walter states - I would like this review postponed and Alexander, Goldie and Stephens to force this SNP government to hold a referendum this year on independence.
It is these 3 parties who do want to hold a referendum
151

John south of Soutra,

26/03/2008 10:50:06
Sorry that should have said do not want to hold a referendum
152

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 10:52:52
I see we have the same old rhetoric from the nats about unstoppable independence. How tedious.

Let's go over some of the evidence highlighting the ridiculous nature of this campaign:

1. Despite 11 months of endless complaining, whinging and whining about the UK by Salmond and his cronies.....support for independence has gone DOWN to 23% and support for the status quo is UP to 76%.

2. Only 0.5% of Scots have bothered to read the much-publicised flagship manifesto pledge that is the 'White Paper for Independence'. 0.5%.

3. Support for the SNP was an impressive 11% ahead of Labour at the height of the party's political honeymoon in Nov. Sadly, that has dropped 1% a month since then and is only 7% now. At this rate, Labour will be back in front by Christmas.

4. Only 395 people have signed the Scottish Independence Convention's much-publicised petition. 395.

The SIC has tragically tried to exaggerate support by claiming ovr 3,400 have signed. Nope, just 395.

5. Of two petitions on the No.10 website for independence; one has 27 signatures, the other just 5 (that's five!)

And my new favourite:
6. The VERY heavily publicised 'National Conversation' set up with great fanfare, AND AT PUBLIC EXPENSE, has attracted input from less than 0.0001% of the population. Less than 0.0001%!

This latest independence campaign is faltering. Just like all the others.
153

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:00:23
Jackie Priest, the Alpine air down there in Switzerland has clearly wrecked your brain.

Maybe you should go and help your mother with the housework.

Go on, be a good boy.
154

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:03:27
#165 Highland Mighty
1)support for independence has gone DOWN to 23% and support for the status quo is UP to 76%.

Where is ur evidence for this? The polls show an overwhelming majority of scots reject the status quo. the most favoured option appears to be more powers for the sp.

If we stop playing games here. The question is - if the unionist commision does not come up with a dev max option will those that want more powers rather have independence or the status quo. It is one question that opinion polls have failed to answer.

The issue with asking people if they want more powers is there is not defined set of powers.

I for instance support fiscal autonomy as a first stage to independence. And would like a serious debate about independence after having a beefed up sp. Many of the things i want can be achieved within the union but are not and to a large extent may never be. In many ways i would support a conferderal uk, ie an independent scotland a member of the uk, just like countries are a member of the eu. only thing is what would be the point ie what powers should be pulled and for what reason. being confederal would allow scotland to a member of the eu on it own right.

Others on this site have argued for fiscal autonomy within the union. Wendy seemed to rule out corporation tax and stuff as it would break eu law.


155

Jaime,

FALKIRK 26/03/2008 11:03:34
Why can't we just have a referendum NOW asking quite tersely, "Independence for Scotland? Tick either YES or NO". A majority (of the Scottish electorate) wins the day - no turning back. And that will at least simplify the outcome of all other reviews and conversations. Please do it NOW.
156

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:08:25
167. This very poll has been repeated again and again by the nats of all people.

Jackie Priest has a copy, maybe he will oblige by posting it again.
157

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:10:29
167. In fact, the wording is misleading. But for any nat to comment on that would be hypocrisy of the highest order.

However, for the sake of clarity:

1. Despite 11 months of endless complaining, whinging and whining about the UK by Salmond and his cronies.....support for independence has gone DOWN to 23% and support for staying in the UK is UP to 76%.

2. Only 0.5% of Scots have bothered to read the much-publicised flagship manifesto pledge that is the 'White Paper for Independence'. 0.5%.

3. Support for the SNP was an impressive 11% ahead of Labour at the height of the party's political honeymoon in Nov. Sadly, that has dropped 1% a month since then and is only 7% now. At this rate, Labour will be back in front by Christmas.

4. Only 395 people have signed the Scottish Independence Convention's much-publicised petition. 395.

The SIC has tragically tried to exaggerate support by claiming ovr 3,400 have signed. Nope, just 395.

5. Of two petitions on the No.10 website for independence; one has 27 signatures, the other just 5 (that's five!)

And my new favourite:
6. The VERY heavily publicised 'National Conversation' set up with great fanfare, AND AT PUBLIC EXPENSE, has attracted input from less than 0.0001% of the population. Less than 0.0001%!

This latest independence campaign is circling the plughole. Just like all the others.
158

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/03/2008 11:14:37
Since Professor Calman admits that he is a unionist he cannot be neutral on the topic of Scotlands future autonmy,role and contribution to the modern Europe.Statements such as making Scotland secure within the UK,the settlement of Scotlands future certainly tell us that the others in this group have already set some limits and appear claim that they can predict the future.Of course this is foolish since none of us can settle a future that we cannot predict.It is also very risky for them if they do not consult everyone with a stake in this,and only consult with those that hold their views.

It is risky because the of the uncertain message from the surveys.Clearly many in the group asking for greater powers could vote yes for independence.This is clear from fluctuating opinion polls that range from 24% to 51%.However,the real dynamite in a recent survey is the discovery that a very significant portion of people who say no to independence now,say that they could be persuaded under certain circumstances.Those circumstances(such as Alec Salmond governing well and a conservative government at Westminster etc) could result in around 29% of the no vote switching to yes.We live in interesting and uncertain times,in a world that is constantly changing.None of us have a crystal ball so we should be cautious about settling things for future generations.This is a bit like thinking that the act of union in 1707 was a solution that would hold its currency for ever.

The commision is interesting but they need to avoid the mistakes of the past where interest in the future government of Scotland was motivated by political considerations.This interest was often weak,quickly dropped,or implemented in a way designed to frustrate.This process started with Winnie Ewings Hamilto by election victory and is heated up every time the SNP move foward.It takes a long time for some politicians to understand that the growing desire for independance might be expressed in more than one way,and
159

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:15:43
167 I think fiscal autonomy is what most electors understand by 'more powers' and I think it is what many of them will be expecting to come out of the Commission. It would be what some people used to call Independence in the UK - full economic powers but with the UK retaining a common defence, security and foreign policy and Scotland remaining part of the Union with the Queen as Head of State.

If that was what emerged I would be quite happy for the meantime, though I would still want to go 'all the way' to independence rather than stopping at third base. But I would rather be at third base than first base.

I am not suggesting that these powers are what the Commission is likely to recommend, but they may be pushed into going a lot further than they may want to at present.


160

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:15:50
#169 Highland Mighty:

The opinion polls do not show 76% support for the status quo. The opinion polls show that the majority want more powers for the scottish parliament.
161

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 26/03/2008 11:17:53
154: Is it ok for Unionists to say my way or no wAy?, but not Nationalists?. You are quite wrong about the SNP. They are at least willing to put their option of Independence to the people, the Unionists are not willing to put their option, 'whatever it is' That to me shows that the SNP believe that sovereignty lies with the people, whereas the Unionist parties do not.
Scotland alone will decide when it wants Independence, that is an Historical fact. England cannot have a say when a country decides its future.
The treaty of Union was a treaty and as such can be ended by either party
162

Nikostratos,

26/03/2008 11:18:16
#157

Your hatred of all things 'Unionist' does this include the 'European Union' a 'Union' which the snp has said they will cling to at all costs...

163

bluehead,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:20:10
there is not even the slightest doubt that there should be a referendum on independence
Scotland has suffered long enough through this goverment, it is time to seperate from from that pile
164

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:21:13
Highland Mighty - nobody is listening to you.

You would be much more effective if you just toned down the rhetoric. At the moment you come over like someone in the street with a sandwich board ranting about God.

Can't believe I am offering advice to a unionist but there you go.
165

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:21:13
Highland Mighty - nobody is listening to you.

You would be much more effective if you just toned down the rhetoric. At the moment you come over like someone in the street with a sandwich board ranting about God.

Can't believe I am offering advice to a unionist but there you go.
166

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:21:19
#172 Miss H

What is the snp's take the legality of fiscal autonomy in relation to EU law. Do we need independence to have fiscal autonomy?


167

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:22:28
175 Do you really not understand the difference between the EU and the UK?

168

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:23:14
179 I don't know. If the UK became some kind of federal structure perhaps not.
169

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:25:09
1 AM2

The fact that youre posting that p*sh at all demonstrates how strong you believe the union ties really are.
You seem to be worried enough to continuously post the same rhetoric day after day who are you trying to convince?? yourself??
170

kimba,

26/03/2008 11:32:20
Maybe all countries of the UK should have a referendum on whether or not they want to stay in the union;because this situation cannot go on,the nats in scotland are so convinced that they will win, seems to me only a referendum would prove that they would not.
171

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:37:45
#181 It is just that it has been mentioned that member states of the eu cannot have varying corporation tax levels (it was said the same applies to vat).
172

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:38:20
173. Feel free to read post 170.

And in answer to your question at 167:

16 March 2008: MRUK/Sunday Times
23% wanted complete independence from the UK.
45% favoured more devolved powers BUT NOT INDEPENDENCE.
22% favoured the current devolution arrangements.
9% wanted fewer powers or the Scottish Parliament to be abolished.

45% + 22% + 9% = 76% wanting to stay in the UK

compared to only 23% wanting independence.

And after nearly a year of Salmond trying to make us all so very angry with that nasty, mean, old UK too.
173

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:43:52
#186 Highland Mighty

That is exactly what i said. Ur statement that 76% wanted the status quo was WRONG. As u state only 22% want the status quo.

Not sure if u understand the meaning of "status quo", it means keeping the same. Staus Quo does not mean rejection of independence.

174

AJ Fife,

26/03/2008 11:44:03
kimba#184,

What do you know about it, and are you sure you're not really Jade Goody?
175

tomislav,

UK 26/03/2008 11:44:17
176 ,,, I most certainly doubt the need for a referendum ,,,, to find out what we already know ,,,,, whats the point ,,,,, whats the justification for spending millions on such a farce, apart from it might finally shut up the Braveheart Brigade ,,,, but somehow I doubt it
176

The Strategist,

26/03/2008 11:44:47
I find a lot of this argument misses the point. From an economic standpoint if Scotland seriously wants to compete properly in the global economy then it really has no option but to move quickly towards independence.

Making "the people" understand this is not easy though when you have such a badly informed and sometimes biased media that simply isn't prepared to discuss the issues properly or openly.



177

Edward,

26/03/2008 11:45:19
#184 Kimba
When you talk of 'all the countries of the UK' I take you mean Scotland and England?
What about Wales (which is a princapailty of England) and Northern Ireland (which is not a Kingdom, but an 'attachment' to the UK)
178

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:47:31
The only reason the oppostion is even considering more powers to the Parliament is because the SNP are in power. Does anyone honestly believe that more powers would even be considered had anybody else won the last election??
It seems clear to me that support for the SNP is the only way to get any consessions from Westminster.
The more we threaten to go independent the more we get back what is already ours from Westminster.
179

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:48:31
191. "That is all"

If only it were so!

Does anyone actually read his oft-regurgitated and baseless rhetoric or does everyone just scroll down?
180

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:49:26
186

Using a single poll to make an argument again??
are you really that stupid or is it desperation??
181

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:49:30
183 I would be on the opposite side of that argument to you because I favour Scotland being in the EU.

However where we agree is that we need to be able to take such decisions for ourselves.

When everything else is stripped away that is what independence means. Having the decision-making powers that other countries take for granted and the freedom to decide our own destiny.
182

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:49:41
191. The fact that are completely unable to even be slightly objective is what makes your posts so very very pointless!
183

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:50:31
195. Feel free to read post 170.

LOL!
184

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:52:37
186 So in other words 68% want to move on from the status quo.

That's what your figures mean. Only 22% favour the current devolution arrangement and 9% want to go back to pre-devolution.

As a nationalist that fills my heart with joy.

185

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:52:45
198

Nope that doesnt help at all Still cant make up my mind is it stupidity or desperation then??
186

Miss H,

26/03/2008 11:54:23
200 A bit of both I suspect.

Maybe he remembers when devolution was supposed to kill off nationalism stone dead.
187

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 11:57:18
199. Yep, the low 20s amounts to very weak support, I must admit.

200. You can just sense the desperation in my posts, can't you.

Feel free to continue pointing them out as it saves me repeating them.

Although the 'less than 0.0001%' that have contributed to the National Conversation can never be repeated enough.
188

Tom R,

26/03/2008 11:57:50
"The crucial thing about this commission is who it persuades at Westminster, because all the important decisions on this will be made at Westminster," Prof Curtice said.

If this analysis by Professor Curtice is correct, then the general assumption that the SNP will poll lower at the next UK general election than at a Holyrood election may prove to be wholly wrong. Admittedly the perverse Westminster first past the post electoral system would mean that an equal share of the Scottish popular vote between Labour and SNP would result in Labour having more seats, but beyond a certain point (40%?), this position dramatically reverses.

I no longer rule out the possibility of the SNP winning a majority of Scottish seats at the next UK general election.
189

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:58:15
202

Oh look its the pretendy neutral. The one who critisises the only political party of getting him what he wants federalism.
190

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 11:59:00
205

Sorry that should read capable of getting him what he wants.
191

Alan B,

26/03/2008 11:59:54
Highland Mighty, i really fail to understand ur logic.

Yesterday u said u support Devolution Max. However none of the parties (with the possible exception of the lib dems) support this position. It is becoming increasingly unlikely Dev Max will be an option. The difference between Dev Max and Independence really is only over foreign policy and defence, yet u attack those supporting independence and support those unionists do not support ur Dev Max ambitions.

Question: If it was in scotland economic interests would u support us joining the euro. If it was in scotlands economic interests to join the euro would u reject it becuase england politically did not want to join. As NI may well join the euro while part of the UK do u support scotland joining if in our economic interest while part of the uk while england stays out?
192

Miss H,

26/03/2008 12:00:24
202 Like I said those figures fill my heart with joy.

68% of people want to progress from where we are now. They want the Scottish Parliament to have more powers, more automy, more freedom. They want to see more decision-making in Scotland and less in Westminster.

I don't really care if only 22% of them have made up their minds at this stage where the journey ends. The direction of travel is plain to see.
193

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 26/03/2008 12:00:27

As a student of Irish Culture for over 20 years...
I am so glad they have turned their economy around..I never thought it would happen! And now instead of their brightest and best young folks despairing and leaving... those who left are returning in droves.
Wouldn't this be great for Scotland? YES, jobs and new green industry is what is called for here!
Seems to me..
England is wanting to wean her brood. She can no longer go on feeding them.
194

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:00:38
202. Thanks for that.

Their weak attempts at insults and abuse are like catnip to me. The poor mites have so many buttons that all solicit a hostile response.

Such fun!
195

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 12:01:01
203

If it isnt desperation or stupidity then why do you feel the need to lie or spin so often in yer posts??
196

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:03:14
209. There's that 'independence is inevitable' again.

Absolutely amazing.
197

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:03:35
212. Feel free to point out lies and spin in MY posts.
198

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 12:06:11
201

Aye I remember that one and it only came about because of the perceived surge towards Independence.
If Westminster wasnt worried we wouldnt actually have a Parliament at all which makes a nonsense of the polls the truth is Scotland is full of the undecided voters hence the contant need for the propaganda.
It is definately all to play for.
199

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 12:07:30
214

Well all of em actually. If it isnt an all out lie then its an unhealthy spin on the truth.
200

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 12:09:16
217

And further what polls never show is the amount of people who dont express an opinion at all.
201

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:09:44
208. So its unionism that is "dishonest" and "hypocritical"?

You nats make up baseless and unsubstantiated claims many, many times a day but you aren't 'dishonest'?

You wail for democracy but refuse to admit and concede that there is, and has always been, minority support for the SNP and for independence, refusing to accept the will of the majority. But that's not 'hypocrisy'?

In fact, every post of yours are prime examples of dishonesty and hypocrisy, aren't they.
202

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 12:12:26
#208 - Thus most Scots are dishonest hypocrites. You really do hold us in such high esteem, don't you?
203

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 12:12:54
208

Absolutely!! it didnt begin with a referendum or a vote by majority but by bribery and corruption how else can it possibly be labled??
Not a student of Scottish history obviously.
204

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:14:43
Highland Mighty
"Feel free to point out lies and spin in MY posts."

1)i already did when u stated 76% wanted the status quo. the poll u were basing that on actually said 22%.

2)the other day in a LIT debate u stated it would make top rate tax 54%. i had to challenge u saying it would be 44% as u had incorrectly added NI at 11% to the top rate of tax in which it does not apply.

3)also in the LIT debate u wrong stated the rate at which top rate of tax in order to help ur agruement by omitting the allowances.

u seem to base ur argument on certain fact, which when turn out to be true, u just turn round as u said in the LIT debate that it does not matter if ur facts are wrong.
205

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:15:25
sorry "which when turn out to be true" - which when turn out to be untrue
206

Red Tower,

Dunoon 26/03/2008 12:18:41
I remember when the Liberals had a policy on the structure of Britain . It was called Federalism. This could I believe, in the current situation, have commanded wide support.

However like so many good ideas they are dropped by the LibDems. Why? they have always tried ever so hard to be on the side of what they see as the powerful. When it comes to the crunch they just have no guts.
207

kimba,

26/03/2008 12:19:10
192.Edward I mean what I say,I said ALL countries.
208

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 12:20:12
#226 - Scotland will get what Scotland wants. That's because the Scots are a free people with the power to decide their own futures. I am sure that you agree, don't you?
209

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:20:57
224. Read 170, you frickin' idiot.
210

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:21:50
226. How many times are you going to ask this?

And how many times do I to answer you?

Just tell me.
211

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 26/03/2008 12:22:50
Divide and rule - Maxims "Divide et impera" or "Divide ut regnes" are traditionally identified with the principle of government of Roman Senate.

Having utterly lost all confidence in our government and political process, I take a far more objective view of matters such as Scottish independence being about the question of 'should Scotland be independent from the UK and more specifically from England'.

That question does not matter. Why? Because, in a round-about way, it will happen regardless. With the signing of the 'Lisbon Treaty' the UK will become 12 EU regions, broadly autonomous to each other, but no longer forming any separate or definable nations in themselves.

For sure the Scottish parliament will remain, becoming one of a dozen regional assemblies across what was the UK. This is the 'snake-oil' Blair found as his solution for Northern Ireland - they become no more a part of Eire than a part of the UK. Wales just happy to keep self to self. England is disseminated, broken and the remains no more a nation, just 9 politically autonomous regions of the EU and a historic coloured shape on a tourist map of the world. Westminster will be a museum to the British Empire, Great Britain, the United Kingdom and a country that was called England where people may visit to learning about the people who brought civility to the world.

Those who clamour for Scotland's independence from the UK are either a willing patsy for the objectives of the EU or have a shallow take of the politics of the day.

Scotland will be independent from the UK, that is a forgone. But Scotland will not be an independent nation, it will be simply one of many regions, albeit once a region with a name the same a the old nation that once historically stood in its place before.

The clamour for Scottish independence is being driven by a desire to make the people of Scotland and the UK believe the breaking-up of the Union is not caused by our nations assimilation into a federal E
212

Edward,

26/03/2008 12:24:16
#228 Kimba
So thats just Scotland and England then. As they are ALL the countries of the United Kingdom
213

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 26/03/2008 12:24:19
Oh dear, Hamish hasn't quite got it yet has he?

The idea of this commission or should that be review, is the complete opposite of what he says it is.

It's role is to make sure that Scotland not only remains firmly under Westminster control, but if possible to see to it that should there be any further meaningful transference of powers, it will be southward, the biggest trick will be to try and make the people of Scotland believe that whatever they propose it's for our benifit.

I look forward with confidence to them cocking it up!
214

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:26:32
226. Tell you what, I'll answer it again. what the hell, eh!

"Support for independence will grow if":

Salmond proves himself as a good FM - Well, he has but support is STILL only 23%.
The Tories win the next election - Well, that looks inevitable but support is STILL only 23%.
Labour wins the next election - One of them has to...but support is STILL only 23%.
Westminster cut Holyrood's share of the UK cake - Salmond has been beleating constantly about this 'tight' budget but you know what? Support is STILL only 23%!

That you desperately cling to such flimsy straws again highlights the extreme weakness of your situation and the eventual and inevitable failure of this current 'campaign for independence'.

"Independence Heaven by.....", when was that again?
215

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:27:26
#230 I did read 170. But it is not me that is posting things that untrue and then have to retract them when challenged.

What about the 2 other falsehoods u posted that i mentioned?

U can call people an "idiot" but it tends to show desparation as u cannot come up with a logical argument.

Was it me who did not know the tax rates in the UK. Was it me that did not know how NI works. U made posts as if they were fact and then do not apologise when u are shown to be wrong.

216

Edward,

26/03/2008 12:28:06
It was interesting that during a discussion yesterday with the BBC's political correspondent in London, he admitted that an Independent Scotland could survive fiscally, allthough though that when the oil runs out it might have a harder time. What he wasnt pressed on is, why countries such as Finland and Denmark with similar populations are doing ok, without any oil resources
217

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:28:35
229. But if it isn't full independence, then we aren't 'true Scots', are we Jackie Priest?
218

kimba,

26/03/2008 12:30:15
233.Edward,are you being obnoxious on purpose!
219

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:31:04
236. Who cares about allowances?! I wasn't even in that (what must have been a quite tedious) discussion!

What is wrong with you nats?!

(Ooh, there's that '?!' again)
220

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:35:52
#237 Edward

It is interesting that Luxembourg,Norway, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden, Netherlands, all have higher gdp per capita (IMF figs) that the UK and scotland is lower than the UK as a whole.

And on GDP per capita PPP then Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands and Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
221

Calum Crubag,

26/03/2008 12:38:05
I like the 'Resevoir Dogs' type photo-call. The only Unionists missing are the BNP and Orange Lodge. What a beautiful bunch.
222

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:44:56
#240 Highland Mighty

U stated where have u said things that are spin or untrue. I gave u some examples of where u posted things that were not true (that i remembered from the last few days.)

"What is wrong with you nats?!"
So u logic is post things that are not true, rather than apologising u just state that it does not matter or who cares.

I do not even support LIT. But if u argue that LIT will make income tax too high making it 54% and that is completely wrong, u think that is ok?
If u argue people will be paying 44% tax over 30,000 when it is nearer 40,000. Another untruth but seemingly in ur logic it does not matter.

If u post so vermently and when the stuff u post turns out to be false u honestly expect people to ignore it.
223

kimba,

26/03/2008 12:46:32
Good afternoon meths,yes indeed tremendous fun.[NOT]
224

langtonian,

scotus 26/03/2008 12:51:34
#32Inkster
Seperatist is what lies at the core of SNP policies,if you do not agree with the word seperatist then you are by default not for the current mk1 Manifesto,mk2 manifesto will bring you no relief as that will be couched in similar terminology.
225

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 12:52:38
244. Are you making up conversations again?

The LIT will punish multiple-income houses (eg working husband and wife) plus our most successful.

Always said that.

For info on income tax allowances, may I suggest this site: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm
226

Alan B,

26/03/2008 12:55:38
#247 Highland Mighty

I do not support LIT as i have said. That is not the point. I am talking about posts u made that were untrue.

"Are you making up conversations again?"
Problem is with that remark u are now lying.

227

brownlie,

Glasgow 26/03/2008 12:55:59
My understand is that the vote in Parliament for this Review/Commission was on the basis of an Independent Chairman being elected/selected. To class a self-proclaimed/confessed Unionist as Independent is a contradiction in terms. Indeed it is the very basis of the opposing views on this forum.

The premise put forward by the Independent Chairman that because - by his figures - only 22 percent favoured independence that option was ruled out.

By the same token those who wish the status quo to remain - with no additional powers being granted or taken away - are also regarded as being around 22%. By his own reckoning, therefore, the status quo option must be ruled out.

Add to that the Lib Dems stated intent of no Parliamentary powers being negotiated away and that leaves the only option open to the commission being increased powers for the Scottish Parliament.
228

Sedov,

Scotland 26/03/2008 12:57:50
Any new reforms arising from devolution which improve the lot for the Scottish people are to be welcome, that's if any meaningful changes do come out of this exercise and I remain sceptical. However, reforms are just that and can be taken back from the people as well given when times are bad and when it suits the system. Thus, this exercise is really a bit of window dressing as the commanding heights of the economy will remain untouched and intact. ( And the same will happen with the so called National Conversation which is another sham)
229

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:00:14
241. Indeed, we still have some catching up to do.

However, as we were 7th in the G7 for 'GDP per capita' in the 90s and now we are 2nd, plus our economic growth has outstripped the EU average for several years running now, it looks like we are catching up quite quickly.

What is needed is a low-tax government to really spur on economic growth.

Unfortunately, the SNP's answer is to clamour for more money from the UK Treasury and raise income taxes for our hardest working and most successful. And apparently they want workers to pay more NIC too.

Oh dear.
230

Alan B,

26/03/2008 13:08:23
#251

"What is needed is a low-tax government to really spur on economic growth."

Agreed. Brown has been poor with the exception of independence for the bank of england.

"However, as we were 7th in the G7 for 'GDP per capita' in the 90s and now we are 2nd, plus our economic growth "
Why not compare ourselves to the other EU nations rather than G7 stagnating countries (US excepted)? Lessons of the last 20yrs is that small countries have done better.

Also we is slightly misleading in terms of this discussion as it is the UK as a whole that has done quite well. Scotland has been stuck with low growth rates. If u are arguing the england has done well economically i would agree but scotland has not. the question for unionist is how to change that within the union.

"SNP's answer is to clamour for more money from the UK Treasury and raise income taxes for our hardest working and most successful"

The snp do not want money from the UK treasury they want fiscal autonomy and independence. While stuck with present arrangement they will have to get money from uk treasurey. They also have a policy of 20% corporation tax i believe something i think u and i would both support.



231

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26/03/2008 13:12:05
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232

DaveK,

Edinburgh 26/03/2008 13:13:25
The concept of a "National Conversation" is utter rubbish and Salmond knows this. The SNP will use, sorry, squander their time in power to push their nationalist agenda and pretend that they are doing the right thing by the people - sorry it will take more than their glib and oily rhetoric to gestate and give birth to a new Nation. I belive it takes an anti Semitic New Zealander in a Kilt, or perhaps Iranians, to help them pull out their Trump card.
233

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:16:22
253. "Mr Salmond said: "This government believes that independence for Scotland - where we are equal partners with the other nations of these islands offers the best prospects for growing prosperity in our nation."

Any chance of specifics for once, Alex?

And your National Conversation was a flop, ignored by over 99% of Scotland. As was your White Paper.

Independence is a non-starter, maybe you should accept that.
234

Busymale,

26/03/2008 13:16:59
How is it AM2 got first spot yet again? Is it because he's a Unionist working for this Unionist rag?
235

kimba,

26/03/2008 13:20:38
254,nice one!
236

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26/03/2008 13:23:05
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Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:24:51
258. And to be fair, you're only posting what Salmond told you to post.
238

,

26/03/2008 13:31:52
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239

Miss H,

26/03/2008 13:32:28
229 Yes and no.

We are free to decide not to have the power to decide things and that is the position we are in.

We don’t have the power to decide a lot of things, from relatively minor things to major things like whether or not we go to war. Our Parliament does not decide those things because it does not have the power to decide. We are free to stay like that for as long as we want.

We are also free to decide that we want a bit more power – perhaps even as much as most other countries have i.e. independence.
240

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:34:47
260. Have a read of post 170.

In your own time.

Finished it yet?

Now, are you sure you don't want to change your answer?

Mmm?
241

,

26/03/2008 13:35:23
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,

26/03/2008 13:36:28
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European Scot,

26/03/2008 13:37:26
229

"Scotland will get what Scotland wants. That's because the Scots are a free people with the power to decide their own futures "

A free people ?
Show us an example of a free and independent Scottish Press, a fundamental requirement of any free society.
Give us an example of just one non Unionist Scottish broadcaster.
Not much point in trying to change broadcasting in Scotland at the moment by the way, because it is 'reserved' to Westminster.
All those billions of pounds worth of oil that has been taken from Scottish waters, where does the money go, straight to London.
Why did you, a free people, only find out about the true value of those oil deposits a couple of years ago. A secret kept from you for 30 years by lies and deceit.
A free people ?
Not just yet, but soon enough.
244

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:38:03
261. You still don't get this 'United' bit, do you.

It is the UK Parliament that decides on foreign policy, defence, the economy etc. Matters of the international kind.

Holyrood looks after domestic matters.

Try to compare this to the USA, Germany or Australia which have similar structures.
245

Miss H,

26/03/2008 13:38:50
220 On this issue yes - dishonest, hypocritical and also cowardly.

Dishonest and hypocritical because this review can study anything it wants provided it does not look at independence. In contrast the National Conversation looks at the status quo and enhanced devolution as well as independence and the SNP is prepared to have a question on enhanced devolution on the ballot paper - while the unionists don't actually want to ask the people at all. That is why they are cowardly.

They don't trust the people. We can never repeat that too often my fellow nats.

246

,

26/03/2008 13:42:48
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,

26/03/2008 13:42:53
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Miss H,

26/03/2008 13:43:12
268 The UK Parliament decides on a lot more than that. It decides how much money the Scottish Parliament gets and what we are allowed to spend it on - and has the power to over-rule the Scottish Parliament at any time.

Try selling that arrangement to any other country and they would laugh in your face. But then they do not have the problem of what Rab McNeill describes as the 'Craven Scotch'.
249

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:43:15
269. The same national conversation that was totally ignored by 99.999% of the population?

Seems more like a lonely monologue than a conversation!
250

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:43:46
268. You mean like countries in the EU?
251

Richard,

west lothian 26/03/2008 13:44:18
I see the cowardly Highland Mighty is posting again?

Has he no shame?
252

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:45:29
271. Hi there Dumba/Ayrshire Scot.

How very original and novel of you to use YET ANOTHER multiple username to try to discredit the anti-nationalists.

Clearly you have nothing else to offer.
253

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:46:28
276. If the Scots are happier being part of the UK, who are you, an ex-pat, to complain and why?
254

,

26/03/2008 13:47:33
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,

26/03/2008 13:49:22
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Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:51:39
Are we?
257

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/03/2008 13:51:46
People can put whatever spin want on the recent surveys of public opinion.However,it is worth remembering that todays polls may not predict an outcome for a referendum in 2011,since public opinion is fluid,and there is likely to be a lot of switching around,especially in multi-choice surveys.

However,I find the underlying trends intersting.Since support for independence has flutuated between 23% and 51% it is reasonable to assume that many opting for greater powers when faced with a single question,have supported independance.Voters need to know what greater powers will be offered (or rmoved) and what the difference is between that and indepenance. That is the moment when you are likely to see either a shift to independance or a firming up among the greater powers group.Even more potent in any survey is the undecided group.The undecided group are the individuals who are cautious about independance but could be persuaded under certain circumstances.It is wise not to dismiss them just because they have not yet decided. They are the dynamite lurking in the polls and are likely to decide much nearer to the referendum.They will take their time to judge Alec Salmond, observe the result of the next Westminster elections and the outcomes from the Commission reviewing the powers of the Scottish Parliament.
258

Richard,

west lothian 26/03/2008 13:52:10

Highland Mighty,

Stop being such a coward and let the Scottish people decide...sign the petition....

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/let-scotland-decide.html
259

,

26/03/2008 13:52:17
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,

26/03/2008 13:53:35
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Richard,

west lothian 26/03/2008 13:55:43
Highland Mighty,

Your answer @ 281 "Are we"?

Are you now saying you want a referendum?
262

,

26/03/2008 13:56:15
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brownlie,

glasgow 26/03/2008 13:57:33
Highland Mighty,
Can I suggest to you that with your blinkered outlooks and non-sequential rants that you are doing more for independence that you are for your unionist cause.

Apart from that you are a complete bore.
264

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 26/03/2008 13:58:54
#23 Cannibal....... Please get your ball and chain off of my foot,you subservient little pipsqueek! Phoblacht na Alba go brugh!
265

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 13:59:01
283. Sign alongside those other 395 people in what is clearly yet another total waste of everyone's time?

Sign and hope another million people sign right after me and give the nationalists this one victory? (Well, two if you count the massive protest vote in the election.)

Nah. Thanks anyway though.
266

Richard,

west lothian 26/03/2008 14:02:50
Highland Mighty,

Sad little fascist, puffed up in your self righteous opinion.

So you think democracy a waste of time?

More fool you.
267

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:03:30
289. Not being a nationalist that wants to withdraw into the massed ranks that is the 'small countries of the world set' but instead being an internationalist within a major economic/political/cultural power that would prefer to engage in world affairs, I hardly think I'm the one with a "blinkered outlook".

And "non-sequential rants" encourages independence????
268

,

26/03/2008 14:04:45
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,

26/03/2008 14:10:19
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Richard,

west lothian 26/03/2008 14:11:22

Highland Mighty,

From the Scottish Independence Convention website....

"Current Running Total from all sources:
Sunday 15th March - 3455 Signatures"

This is the total number of signatures as of the 15th March, not the 395 you seem to think?

More dissembling from you?
271

kimba,

26/03/2008 14:12:13
295.And if all this comes about,will you return to scotland?
272

,

26/03/2008 14:13:39
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,

26/03/2008 14:14:06
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kimba,

26/03/2008 14:16:06
279.WOW, 3455 out of 5million scots,better get the border posts ready!
275

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26/03/2008 14:18:37
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westview,

here and now 26/03/2008 14:21:11
Sir Kenneth is to be congratulated in emphasising that he will be independent in his task of reporting on Devolution. Can he at least recomend that broadcasting in Scotland should also be independent ,so that his views are not distorted by the present media control from London?
277

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 26/03/2008 14:21:46
293 Tartan nighty you're Brian Wilson. I claim my prize of two weeks in Oban and a lifetime subscription to the west highland free press.
278

kimba,

26/03/2008 14:22:33
301. YES, we know what 3455 will vote.
279

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:25:08
297. We went through this yesterday!

This site says 3,455 signatures:
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/

BUT when you go into the petition itself, you see there are only 399 signatures:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/let-scotland-decide.html

Where are the other 3,156 signatures?

Yet another nationalist lie?
280

,

26/03/2008 14:26:18
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Reason:
281

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:30:39
304. The review is to cater for the largest section of society, roughly half, that wants to see more devolution, as shown in repeated polls.

If the largest section was to leave things as they are or scrap Holyrood altogether (not that that isn't tempting), the review would examine those options.
282

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:31:20
Clear proof that Dumba is Ayrshire Scot.

The name should have given it away a lot earlier but there you go.
283

Dumb and Dumberer,

Flakey paint council flat 26/03/2008 14:32:04
300
I live in a council flat in Redcar !!GOT IT!!

oos up for a shellsuit fat bloted and tumpleware pirty

i was at ramedial clas at scool becose i was stupid and now i vote news labor GOT IT!!
284

kimba,

26/03/2008 14:33:49
309. you must be one of the 3455 who are going to set scotland free,free from what or whom only you nats would know,they say only fools and dreamers think the grass is greener on the other side,I know which one you are!
285

Dumb and Dumberer,

toilet snorkeling 26/03/2008 14:34:11
my pet wabbit has mixoahatoses and has 2 left foots
286

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:34:14
Dumba, have you finished totting up the number of posts on the National Conversation?

You need to identify 50,000 individual users to reach that magic 1% barrier. I found between 800-1000 but we'll see how you do.
287

Richardinho,

26/03/2008 14:35:26
The polls have overwhelmingly shown a desire for more powers for the parliament,not less. Support for independence has went down as the desire for more powers has went up. Make of that what you will.

It suggests to me that the gradualist approach of the SNP is a popular one.
288

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:36:18
314. It's up to the majority, isn't it.

Haven't you figured out how this democracy thing works yet?

Oh, I see what you did with my name. Oh, that's very clever. Very clever indeed.

Go and show your mum.
289

kimba,

26/03/2008 14:37:26
315.Please answer my question at 298!
290

Dumb and Dumberer,

piking my nose 26/03/2008 14:38:16
ricardiniona

yes my nabour says that aswel and more peple r going to the snp .we only wish wees huv a s n per person so we could vote for them 2
291

,

26/03/2008 14:38:33
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Reason:
292

Dumb and Dumberer,

26/03/2008 14:39:55
321 sister .you are to stupid to plant a question.

320 higland lowlife. same qestions again. why are you a turd
293

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:41:42
324. Sor.y, ca. you repe.t the ques.ion? I hav. a v.ry bad c.nne.tion here.
294

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 14:41:44
#314 - The Scots are at perfect liberty to reject the Union by giving the majority of their votes to parties that want to end it. The Scots have never done this. In the same way, Britain could never be ruled from another country unless the British people consented to it. Thus, if Britain were ruled from a foreign country it would be the will of the British people.

That said, England is not a foreign country. It is a constituent part of the United Kingdom, as is Scotland. This the English are not foreigners, they our are fellow countrymen.

I hope that helps.
295

Dumb and Dumberer,

Melrose 26/03/2008 14:43:36
328

spoken like a true border person in a area with no railways GOT IT!!!
296

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 14:44:34
#324 - But it is now up to the majority to decide whether we stay a part of the UK or not. In 80 years of universal suffrage we have never once come close to giving a majority of our votes to parties that want to end the Union.

And on an historial note can you tell me what sovereign powers the Scottish people lost in 1707?
297

Dumb and Dumberer,

26/03/2008 14:46:01
330
the right to independace and out door toilets
298

Dumb and Dumberer,

26/03/2008 14:47:49
330
your just a big border jobby GOT IT!!!
299

brownlie,

Glasgow 26/03/2008 14:48:56
293 Highland Mighty
I am glad you can confirm that there are "massed ranks" for independence.
Please do not denigrate my country - we might be wee but we have big hearts.
As for "engaging in world affairs" if that means supporting the murder and maiming of innocent men, women and children - no thank you very much.
300

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:50:18
330. I'm going to place a small bet with the nearest person that you do not get a straight answer.
301

Dumb and Dumberer,

26/03/2008 14:51:37
335 wood that bee a em 2 ?
302

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 14:51:38
Dammit, I wasn't quick enough.
303

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 14:56:24
#334 - I have answered the question. It is just that I have provided an answer you do not like.

The simple fact is that the Scots have the ability to vote for political parties that support the dissolution of the Union. As I said in my previous post, for the 80 years since we have had universal suffrage in the UK, we have never come close to doing this.

In the same way, the only way for Britain as a whole to be ruled from a foreign country is if the British people consent to this. If the British people do consent to this, then as a democrat I would accept it, even if I did not agree with it.
304

Dumb and Dumberer,

umbongo 26/03/2008 14:58:31
Why do the mindless labour drones always try to counter anti-unionist posts by literary pi$$ing into the wind?
305

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 14:59:02
#338 - You have a British passport, as do people from England. They are your countrymen. But, you are right, Scotland and England are also two countries. They have willingly decided to pool sovereignty for the common good. The UK is a fine country, as is Scotland, as is England.
306

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 14:59:59
I saw Nicola Sturgeon on the politics show today... she was asked why she is refusing the people of Scotland a referendum.

She refused to answer.

She was drawn to the fact only 23% of Scots support independence.

She refused to acknowledge that.

Like all the bonny SNP she lives in a fantasy realm, where you can refer fondly to the will if "the Scots" while refusing them their democrativ rights and behind their backs calling them unionist stooges, traitors etc.

The SNP are losing support by the hour. While the prominent political party members are carrying out what they believe in a fair and albeit mediocre fashion, their grass roots on here make them look like an animal liberation front.

But in this case the beagles are enjoying a smoke! So shut it nationalists and for once listen to the voice of Scotland - we are happy and unamused by your repeated posturing and wind!
307

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26/03/2008 15:00:10
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Reason:
308

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:00:54
341. "Unionism is hypocrisy" is it?

I shall pass that on to the Americans and our other European neighbours.
309

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:02:17
346. Minority power with dwindling support for both party and their independence cause.

Don't forget that!
310

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:02:29
341

Jackie Priest is an amusing one.

She refers to "Unionist Hypocrasy"

Is she referring to the SNP quiting this union for the european union and claiming they are not in a union?

The mind boggles.
311

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:02:30
#341 - No, you just will not get answers that you like. Which, of course, is completely different.

As we are asking questions - can you point me in the direction of the pre-1707 popular vote in Scotland that led to the country being established in the first place? This may surprise you, but there was not one. Scotland is the construct of medieval Empire building and the people who lived in Scotland has as much say in its creation and development as they did about the Act of Union. As a Borderer I only share the same country as a Shetlander because of medieval conquest and marriage alliance. No-one ever got a vote.
312

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:04:02
348. Not lost but merely transferred.

And it seems that the vast majority of the country don't seem to be too concerned about that.
313

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:06:03
#348 - Supreme political authority; the Scottish peple; 1707? Really? Have you got the voting figures for any ofthe general elections that took place in Scotland before 1707? or a copy of the Scottish constitution for that matter?
314

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:07:16
#346 - Jackie, it may have escaped your notice but the curent SNP government is a minority government. That means it did not get a majority of the votes. It really is very simple.
315

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:08:07
354 Methalions

Oh dear, basic logic fading fast in your angry and disorientated mind.

Nicola Sturgeon this morning.

Alex Slamond this afternoon.

SNP logic.

"The sun rose this morning."

"How can it of!! It was seen setting this afternoon."

The party is like your head, confused and incapable of rational thought.

Unless Nicola Sturgeon dresses as a man and pretends to be Alex Salmond?
316

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:12:18
360 Methalions

Can you justify to me how Nicola Sturgeon did not say something this morning because Alex Salmond was seen doing something different this afternoon.

Warped and wierd logic.

Your anger is evident from your silly and trivial posts.

Yourdisorientation from claiming the sun did not rise this morning because you saw it set this afternoon.

Wierdo.
317

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:15:18
362

More warped SNP logic.

You can not read my posts because I have not read yours before.

Nonsensical.

Nicol surgeon did not say something this morning because I say Alex Salmond said the opposite this afternoon.

Nonsensical.

You are a confused person of mediocre intellect.
318

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:16:09
#359 - The Scottish people were not sovereign in Scotland in 1707. They had no say in how they were governed. They had never had a say in how they were governed. They were never even asked if they wanted Scotland to exist in the first place.
319

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:17:37
363

Your basic hypocrasy is evident from claiming I play the man.

And then immediately accusing me of all sorts.

Nonsensical and warped in the extreme.

Anyhoo, what did happen is Nicola Sturgeon tap danced away from answering any real questions.

Much like the SNP attack dogs do on here.

They start playing the man.

Check out bbc iplayer, Nicola Sturgeon is on the record as sidestepping all questions.
320

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:23:07
369 Methalions

You accuse of ad hominen. And then accuse me of all sorts.

You clearly get caught out with your silly and nonsensical claims and go running away to save face. Typical of the SNP.

The claims I made are documented on the BBC web-site. So really why embarass yourself further?

At least everyone can see how childish you are. Making things up that make no sense, using warped logic and then running away like a coward when challenged.

Perhaps if you kept your mouth shut from the beginning and not added you daft argument about "Another person did this at another time so it can;t be true." None of this would have arose.

Good day to you sir! And good riddance.
321

,

26/03/2008 15:23:30
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322

Paloma negra,

26/03/2008 15:26:09
#133 Boot ...
Such colourful metaphors you use to describe our friends from the Braveheart fraternity ...!!!
My ohh my ...
You should take up a career in broadcasting.

Move over Kirsty Wark and Paxman
... here comes Boot stamping !!!
LOL !!!

But seriously mate.
Alex Salmond and the other fantasy boys and girls are quite entertaining really.

Please note that I said "fantasy" cos that is was this idiotic dream the SNP are all having is !!!
A kind of mass halucination like one huge orgasmic acid-trip.

Shame they are in for a rather huge rude awakening when the electorate give Salmond' goon the "heave-ho"
323

Alan B,

26/03/2008 15:26:42
Border Scot: "The Scots are at perfect liberty to reject the Union by giving the majority of their votes to parties that want to end it. The Scots have never done this."

While this is correct, a referendum is the best way to find out the views of the scottish people. We have never had a referendum in independence.

The problem with using the westminster election system as a consent of the scottish people is it is not a true test of opinion. People vote for parties for a variety of reasons. With devolution people will choose different parties in the different elections. The media in a uk election hardly discusses and has scottish constitutional issues at the forefront of an election.

The reason for the constitutional issues coming to the fore here is becuase with devolution scotland can vote parties within scotland. The snp is a meaningless vote to some degree at westminster but at holyrood it is meaningful. The scottish parliament has given scotland options and a real debate over it constitutional future, something never practically available before.

324

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:27:27
299 What Highland Mighty suffers from is a bad case of 19th century nationalism.

That brand of nationalism which Gordon Brown was decrying the other day.

325

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:27:52
372 Methalions

I said GOOD DAY to you, sir!

326

Paloma negra,

26/03/2008 15:28:31
Next election day Salmond will be on a P45 ...!!
Lucky he already has two jobs to support his greedy fat smarmy face ehh.
Otherwise he would be selling the "Big Issue" the day after election day

LOL !!!
327

Calum Crubag,

26/03/2008 15:30:09
Highland Potato Blighty has single handedly increased the number of hits on the National Conversation site since his many posts yesterday. Good. But his bosses in Westminster aren't too chuffed at him going 'off message'.

Same with the few 'Old Labour' stalwarts left over who still want to 'soak the rich'. They might actually want a LIT which benefits the poor. As to multi-income (surely earning lots more than one or no income?) houses - using more resources, earning more = paying more. Sounds fair to me.
328

Paloma negra,

26/03/2008 15:33:04
Ironic and hilarious ...!!

You can picture all the red-faces in the Braveheart camp the next day ... after the election ... when the SNP get totally thrashed ehh??
329

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:34:29
#368 - My point is this:

You say that the Scottish people were never asked about whether they wanted Scotlad to join the UK. You are correct. But it is also a fact that they were never asked about the creation of Scotland either. I am afraid you cannot have it both ways.

Scots have fougt to advance and protect the interests of the UK for the last 300 years, just as Scots fought to protect and advance the interests of Scotland before that. Again, you cannot have it both ways.

You consistently accuse me of hypocrisy, after having invented a set of beliefs that you wish me to have, but which I do not hold.

The essential truth of my position is that I am a democrat and I believe in the free will of the Scottish people. In every election ever held under universal suffrage, the Scots have always given the vast majority of their votes to parties that support the union. Last year, they did so again. Which is why the SNP is running a minority government. I have to say I am very puzzled as to why you can't accept this. You are a democrat, aren't you?
330

Paloma negra,

26/03/2008 15:35:09
Alex "Big Issue" Salmond will not have that sickly smarmy grin the day after the next election will he.

Go Salmond ... and take all the other SNP jokers with you
... to the Dole Office pal !!!!!!!!!
331

Paloma negra,

26/03/2008 15:37:52
New Words to "Flower of Scotland"

"We're so submissive ...
... ohh can't you see
... we put oor faith in the pishy SNP"



... WHAT WE GONNA DO NOW???
332

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:37:53
#374 - Everyone knew before the elction last year that the SNP was offering a referendum on independence as part of its manifesto. But the majority of Scots choseto vote for parties that opposed a referendum and stated quite explicitly that they supported the Union.

I agree that people vote for political parties for a number of reasons. In other words, they prioritise. So what we can say with a good deal of certainty is that independence - a hugely significant, irreversable step - is not the priorit for most people in Scotland. When that changes, the SNP will get a majority of the votes.
333

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:38:13
308 The Independence Convention website says total running score of signatures from all sources Sunday 15 March.

The clue is in that 'from all sources'.

It may be news to you but there is a real world which exists parallell to the online world with things like paper and biros and people actually sign their names.

334

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:38:40
Border Scot, in case you hadn't noticed, Jackie Priest will spin her socks off to try to win the smallest of arguments - desperately trying to win a mere skirmish while losing the war etc.

Her denial is quite strong because the reality of life and love here is over the horizon and far away from Switzerland. All that is known to young Jackie is what is on these pages.

Despite being shown a bounty of evidence identifying the clear weakness of this current independence campaign (just like aaaall the others), this one will continue to declare "independence is imminent" and "support is growing".

You will have noticed that she has failed to identify the obvious protest vote against Labour (70% of SNP voters were anti-Labour not pro-SNP) that got the SNP their one single seat majority.

It wasn't the SNP that won it, their vote in every election before this was DROPPING, it was Labour that lost it.
335

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:39:59
385. Kindly find the other 3100 signatures then.

It's a bit strange in this internet age to have petitions all over the place when this one is clearly available worldwide!
336

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:41:56
384 But don't you think it is ironic that the Opposition parties have attacked the SNP every time they don't implement a manifesto commitment .. and also attack them every time they do. That is how it looks to voters,

It also looks as though the SNP trust people to vote on their own future and take their own decisions and the other parties don't.

Trust is a two way thing - the more the SNP trusts the electorate, the more the electorate trusts the SNP and the corollary also applies.
337

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:43:47
389. What do you think 'opposition' means?

It's their job to question the governing party.
338

Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw I ken were ane history,

26/03/2008 15:46:25
390

Hehe - so true.

The SNP are the real crud stirrers in the UK. Holyrood is getting as bad as Stormont.

They were god awful in opposition and got worse in government.

Scotland's only problem is that it has an opposition party in power!

Thank god the main parties have the good sense to try and prevent the crud stirrers derailing us.
339

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 15:47:50
387. Not that 3,400 signatures from a population of 6,000,000,000 is indicating any end soon for the UK.

Even 3,400 is a mere 0.0006% of the Scottish population.

(That's becoming a recurring figure, isn't it!)
340

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:50:55
387 I wonder have you ever seen a paste table with people standing behind it. On the table are sheets of paper clipped to a clipboard. There may be a number of other people hanging around (usually wearing anoraks) and handing out what are known as 'leaflets'. Many people pass them by but many people stop and the anoraky people pounce and hand them a leaflet and engage them in conversation, which usually ends 'you can sign the petition'. This comes as a relief to the wifie (or sometimes it may be the mannie) behind the paste table who can no longer feel his or her feet as it gives them a reason to go on living.

There are exceptions to this pattern - sometimes the people in the anoraks have megaphones and are shouting 'Sign the petition! Sign the petition!" through the megaphones. They are the SSP/Solidarity in case you have ever wondered.

You will also sometimes notice a paste table manned by well dressed ladies of a certain age and the people hamding out the leaflets are not wearing anoraks, they are wearing suits and they look about 13 years old. They are the Tories and they want you to sign a petition calling for a referendum on the EU Constitution.
341

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:51:53
#389 - I have not doubt that most Scottish voters are happy with the SNP government, but I am not convinced that will spill over into growing support for independence.

I livd in Catalonia for five years. In jsut about every single election tot he Catalan parliament that has ever been held, the CiU - the main Catalan nationalist party - won most votes. But Catalonia is no closer to voting for independence than it was when Franco died. The people have other priorities. Thhey like the idea of a government that sticks up for their interests, but they also like the idea of being part of Spain. I can see Scottish voters behaving in exactly the same way.

What we do know is that in 2011, if the SNP wins an outright majority, we will be on the road to a referendum on independence. I would not be at all surprised if, despite having the SNP in Holyrood, there was a big majority voting to remain part of the UK. But maybe I am wrong. The first thing that needs to happen to see if I am is that the Scots have to give a majority of their votes to the SNP.
342

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 15:52:55
#391 - Who is denying Scotland the right to independence? Why do you keep on making things up?
343

kimba,

26/03/2008 15:53:15
So,jackie priest will rile the nats up in scotland,but asked if he/she would move back to scotland if they obtained independence as of yet he/she has not been forth coming!
344

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:56:04
Jock "The Teuchtor" McGraw.

Another complete maddie in the great Scotsman tradition.

Where do they come from?
345

Mack1,

Carlisle 26/03/2008 15:56:37
Talk abour re-arranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic. What we want south of the Border want is independence for England; which begs the question: "Why, post-Devolution, should the decision to maintain the Union rest solely with Scots voters?" Devolution was the start on the road to deconstruction of the UK, regardless of how much Labour and Tory politicians try to spin or pretend otherwise.
It is just a question of time before English politicians finally cotton-on to this inconvenient truth and start to campaign accordingly; the first party so to do down here will by a landslide.
346

kimba,

26/03/2008 15:56:37
As you say in your post at 391;ANSWER THE QUESTION!
347

Miss H,

26/03/2008 15:59:32
395 The Catalan scenario is a possibility. Nobody has a crystal ball. I would rather that than nothing or to stay where we are.
348

john z,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 16:06:17
I would just like to say, I think the scotsman is doing an admirable job of its new role as PR agent for the pro- unionist parties in volved in this attempted coup.

I cannot believe this sham political exercise is being allowed to continue. The persons attending are NOT the current government, and are effectively usurping the democratically elected will of the Scottish electorate. If Scotland had wanted Wendy as first minister, I'm sure they would have voted Labour at the election. Sadly, they didn't.

Seriously, I believe the behaviour of the politicians is nothing short of an abuse of political process i norder to undermine the democratically elected Scottish government. This is a disgrace, and the Media, such as this should appreciate more what democracy within the law really means, instead of pandering to the whims of thier lords and masters in Labour HQ.

These clowns make a mockery of democracy and the Scottish people.
349

,

26/03/2008 16:07:26
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350

,

26/03/2008 16:08:43
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Reason:
351

john z,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 16:10:15
For all those above doubting the strength of feeling in Scotland, just one question; why will Labour, the tories and the lib dems not allow a referendum on the matter. No lengthy discussions needed, just a referendum.

As for England, the sooner the people in England demand independence from Scotland the better, instead of just whinging about it. Just do it, but don't expect any of our oil revenue.
352

kimba,

26/03/2008 16:16:56
404.Clever little nat,uncle alex will give you a big lolly or something along those lines!
353

john z,

edinburgh 26/03/2008 16:18:01
Number 380, Border Scot

Sorry, but your 'spin' won't wash. It is overly simplistic to say that in Scotland, people always voted for parties that supported the union. There is a simple reason why, if everyone in Scotland in the Westminster elections in Scotland, voted SNP, do you know what would happen?? nothing.

There are over six hundred MPs in westminster with just over 60 Scottish seats. Even if every seat in Scotland was SNP, it would never make a majority in westminster sufficient to determine a policy change such as independence. Everyone with common sense in Scotland knows this.

As they say in the USA, 'you do the math'.
354

kimba,

26/03/2008 16:19:00
406.Any of your oil,LOL,another dreamer!
355

,

26/03/2008 16:19:41
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356

Katty,

Bannockburn 26/03/2008 16:22:03
So Sir Kenneth Calmen said "I would not accept this
(review) if it was being driven from elsewhere and I will not being taking orders from London, OH NO!

Prof., Curtis has admitted that the final say of any change will lie with Westminster.

The writer did state the review was set up and arranged after being approved by Westminster.

Looks like Kenneth will learn just like his 3 stogies, Mrs Broon plays the tune.

What has this great country become?
357

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/03/2008 16:24:34
I met a Scottish friend at the weekend. He has a lot of experience with this internet blogging which I only discovered last year.He was explaining to me about the behaviours and tactics of trolls.The tactics involve posting frequentely antagonise,get off topic in order to disrupt the flow of discussion.Observing the Herald and Scotsman website over the past two days,I can see what he is talking about. Sometimes it is impossible to follow the logic and flow of the dialogue It has definately driven my friend away and probally others.This is a pity since the imput from those who have left is lost to us all.

The answer to the question put to Nicola is that a referendum will be offered when the unionist parties agree to one.At the present time they are saying no.Alec Salmond is today trying to persuade them to say yes,challenging them to say what greater powers means,and offering to cooperate with them in a multi-question referendum.

358

kimba,

26/03/2008 16:25:14
410. You are also a nasty wee t-rd.
359

,

26/03/2008 16:28:55
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360

European Scot,

26/03/2008 16:31:53
380

I posted to you earlier questioning your assertion that the Scots were a free people.
The problem is the press and television of Scotland are under a firm Unionist grip.
Whatever you hear or read has a pro UK spin, you do not get a balanced view of all political viewpoints, including the case for Independence.
Broadcasting is reserved to Westminster for very obvious reasons.
The fact that the SNP got into the position that they did was in spite of all the one sided propaganda that had been fed to the people of Scotland in the run up to that election.
You read on here about the minority of people who voted SNP, with that percentage being offered as an indicator of support for Independence. That is simply a lie.
Pro independence supporters exist in all of the political groups.
Blair led and now Brown leads a Labour party that came to power on a figure that equated to 22% of the UK electorate.
Using the same crazy logic used against the SNP that means 78% didn't support them.
Yet here we have Brown calling the shots at Westminster with such minority support, which has doubtless fallen even more since the UK election.
You say you believe in the will of the Scottish people, that is fine, but would you back that up with having an open and free media covering all political flavours.
At least then when people make their minds up it will be based upon a variety of
political views and opinions.
When the media dice are all loaded, that isn't democracy.
361

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/03/2008 16:33:42
#1 AM2 Your confidence in the Union is undermined by the frequency and length of your comments. Your "body language" ie your actions tell us that you are certain the Union is nearing its end and you are terrified that you will lose your pay off from the UK. Give the Scottish people the right to choose if you are so certain of the result. Independence is not just a process : it is a homecoming!
362

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 26/03/2008 16:39:18
Robert Mugabe would be laughing so much he might fall of his throne if he wasn't so busy fixing his own election.

Set up a commission on Scotland's future by dictat from the Prime Minister of the UK. Exclude the Scottish Government. Exclude the option of independence. Exclude any vote or consultation with the Scottish people because the so-called independent chair says that he knows "Seventy-seven per cent of the Scottish public don't think independence is the right way forward (but he is scared to ask)." And call the whole thing "independent."

If it was Kosovo or Western Sahara or Florida we would all laugh at how corrupt it all was.

The only consolation is how silly Wendy and co looked outside the Parliament. Were they waving or drowning?
363

oddoneout,

26/03/2008 16:47:06
@Jackie Priest

regarding Germany, US I think you would find bavarian people very upset by your commments, they were a nation, had kings...everything including different culture and language to the rest of the current germany and there are people there that want to go back to it. The US , the clue is in the name...united and states, 50 of them to be precise(51 if you include the UK) and you can't tell me that they are all culturally the same and they definitely speak a different language.
364

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 16:47:26
#418 - And when the Scots want independence they will get it.
365

Border Scot,

26/03/2008 16:52:33
#415 - I dispute the assertion that broacasting is under a firm unionist grip. I think the BBC is balanced in its coverage of political developments in Scotland and gives all sides of the debate an equal crack of the whip.

I do not dispute the unionist bias in the print media, but that is what happens when you have a free press - newspapers decide how they are going to cover events and if you do not like it you do not have to buy them.

What happens in Scotland happens everywhere else - newspapers tae a point of view and run stories to promote that point of view. You do the cause of nationalism no service by stating that the Scottish people are not free to make their own decisions.

And I agree that the voting system we have in the UK is a disgrace.
366

oddoneout,

26/03/2008 16:53:25
#403

The reason that this is being allowed is that the SNP does not have a majority. If everyone gangs up on you, you are out-voted...simply how democracy works
367

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 16:53:57
408. That's democracy for you, eh. That feckin' majority getting their way.

Tut.

It's strange how the nats are only bent out of shape and all because their precious SNP will never win power in Westminster.

Labour have, Conservative will, LD could....but SNP?

Should have picked a more subtle name that might have appealed UK-wide. They could have won power and then just thrown us out of the UK!
368

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 16:56:51
421. And here is Jackie Priest, yet again, forgetting that the SNP didn't win their one seat majority because their policies were suddenly popular (and after 17 years of declining votes in all elections) but becuase Labour were unpopular.

70% of SNP voters voted SNP as a protest against Labour.

It was a protest vote.

I really can't understand why she cannot see that. It really is quite puzzling.
369

Janis *,

london 26/03/2008 16:57:05

One has to admire you Scots for sheer chutzpah sometimes. I have been watching Mr Sarkozy speaking at Westminster. The introduction by the Speaker was priceless. He immediately opened his intro. with a load of spiel about the Auld Alliance & how influential Scotland & France had been for each other. S'cuse me Mr Martin, Mr Sarkozy is visiting Great Britain. Scotland, please take Mr Martin back with you when you go....the silly old fool.
370

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:09:46
Highland Mighty

u say the snp only won the last scottish election because of labours unpopularity. Is it not true that labours vote actually held up, it was non labour voters that tended to move to the snp. The greens and ssp the other independence parties went into melt down.

In many ways it became a 2 horse race.

371

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/03/2008 17:11:18
I agree with Jackie Priest,independance is in the balance.Professor Calman who understands the compexity of interpreting survey data also knows this through his academic background.The fact that he acts as if he doesn't know is worraying because it suggests that he is not neutral.

Nn matter let things take their course.Things are moving in the right direction. The SNP had 2 MPs when I joined,the late Donald Stuart, and Margo McDonald.There have been ups and downs but things have steadily got better.What history tells is is that the only thing we can be sure about is change.You cannot hold back the tide of change and there are all sorts of pressures forcing change that go beyond politics.Professor Calman knows that,but how indepenent and neutral is he?

372

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:14:48
429. Really? Where's the poll?
373

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:16:31
430. That YouGov poll in January:

"For SNP voters only - The SNP won due to the unpopularity of Labour rather than the popularity of the SNP."
Agree - 70%
Disagree - 16%


Neeeeext!
374

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:21:33
433. See that poll? No analysis necessary, straight from the horses' mouths!
375

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:22:24
#433 I am not suggesting there was not such a poll. There has been a spin in the media to this effect. To some extend i agree.

What i am suggesting is if u look at how people actually voted, labours vote actually held up. (god knows why). It was the move to the snp by voters of other parties that swung the election. As such i think if u look at what happened as opposed to the persception of what happened it is abit different.

376

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:23:54
#433 cont.. are u really saying that the green vote and ssp vote disintegrated because of labour unpopularity.
377

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/03/2008 17:25:16
I am more and more convinced that there is a team of journalists operating on this site ,to boost figures for the failing newspaper.
Which it is ,figures are nearing the desperate 50000!
Keep up the good work chaps!
I'm off to a site where the imbecile and the pompous appear to be barred!
If you leave the imbecile and the pompous alone ,they can have a jolly conversation with each other!
378

Miss H,

26/03/2008 17:26:14
433 I would argue with that on the basis that the SNP not only won the parliamentary vote they won the local authority vote.

Even if you accept the argument (which I don't) that there the protest vote against Labour was more signidicant than the pro SNP vote in the Scottish Parliament election the same cannot be said in the local authority election, especially one fought under STV.

You might have been telling the truth if you said that the SNP is becoming the new Labour, in the sense that they are now the party of mainstream Scotland. And credit. As well as in votes, you can see that shift in dwindling Labour membership figures as the SNP's increases and in the fact that donations to the SNP (all permissable!) are higher than donations to Labour.

There are dangers in that for the SNP - they could in theory become as unpopular as labour. But I don't think that will happen as a) they are better at politics than Labour is and b) they have a vision which Labour doesn't.
379

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:30:50
#433 a google showed the results of the previous elections were

SNP +20 from previous election
Lab –4 from previous election

Cons –1 from previous election
LD –1 from previous election

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/2007_scottish_parliament.htm

(i assume this web site is accurate)



380

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:31:37
See what I mean, heavily spun analysis to produce the desired result.

The poll I quoted asked the SNP's voters why the SNP won.

The vast majority say it was a protest vote.

Unless anyone can come up with a simpler way to identify a protest vote than asking the feckin' voters!
381

cataibh,

Bo'ness 26/03/2008 17:32:02
Could anyone tell me what support there was for independence in 1958?
382

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:33:37
439. All I can add to that is that the bus regulation pledge must have been deeply unpopular as that was the only major change to the 2003 manifesto!

You know that pledge, the one Souter paid 600k to have removed? That one?
383

Miss H,

26/03/2008 17:37:03
440 That's pathetic. There has been lots of analysis done of the election result - go and read it.

There is no simple answer but in my view the SNP won on the basis of having run a positive campaign. That's the lesson for us nats. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, don't mess with Mr In-between.....
384

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:37:29
#440 If this was a protest vote against labour as u suggest why did labours vote hold up.

(protest votes that we have seen in the uk tend to be in local government when the voters vote for a party other than that at government level).

u have also omitted understanding of the points put to u. the snp became the main benefitted from the ssp and green meltdown aswell as independents losing seats. How does that translate to a protest vote again labour.


385

Miss H,

26/03/2008 17:40:56
442 We have already been through this HM. Do we have to go through it again? Most of what the SNP was calling for in 2003 had already been done by Labour and the Lib Dems - hurrah for them - including an action plan on greater integration of bus services. here it is published in December 2006 :http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/157450/0042432.pdf

Move on to something you can actually score a point on - or give up for the day because you are crashing and burning right now and frankly making a bit of a fool of yourself.

386

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:44:12
443. So you don't think 'asking the voters themselves' is an accurate way of identifying reasons why the voters voted as they did?

If I wanted to know what your favourite meal was; would I be better off conducting surveys of the most popular meals in your age group and local shops/bars/cafes/restaurants and then analysing the results to identify the most likely possibilities.....or just asking you?
387

Alan B,

26/03/2008 17:46:03
#442 Alternatively people saw Salmond as the best of the leaders. The previous election the snp had Swinney who was clearly not leadership material. Atleast not for a party that needs to enthuse voters (labour could have anyone for a while and would still win).

The ssp went into meltdown for known reasons. As for the greens i do not know the logic of people voting for them in the previous election and then snp now. Maybe they thought the greens were not effective despite their 7 seats.

To a large extent it was the non labour voters that allowed the snp to win. Labour only lost 4 seats despite its apparent unpopularity and won a majority of first past the post ones.
388

Truely English,

26/03/2008 17:46:56
It is sad to read so many comments from people, who wish to tear our country apart rather than have everyone working together.
All my life I have supported our British way of life only to see it coming to nothing. you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

British culture is the best in the world and it doesn't matter whether it comes from Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland. We are all the same at the end of the day.
389

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 17:46:57
Are you refusing to accept this because it goes against your version of reality?

Of course you are! You always do!
390

Resolutions,

26/03/2008 17:50:25
#431#412 Suomi
Nice to see you back and nice and sane and objective. I agree the vitriol being spouted by too many on these sites now, is not allowing the development of a positive debate.

Keep up the remarks please - like many I am sure, I am into skipping a great deal when I see the names and only stop and read some. You can pick up the 'better' ones that way, but it is time consuming when you have only a short while in the e world!
391

Jim P,

26/03/2008 17:57:38
"I believe this will be the commission that will decide the constitutional future of Scotland and will create a stronger Scottish Parliament within a stronger UK," Mr Stephen said.

WRONG! The people of Scotland will decide the constitutional future of Scotland.
392

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 26/03/2008 18:00:40
This is re-run from 31
GalacticCannibal,
Murrieta, CA....Bye Bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil lead 26/03/2008 04:36:58
-------------------------------------------
Dudes,
I do think that, Ur constant negative tone of voice , and overall attitude of the SNP, and its supporters, towards Westminster, will not help Ur cause one bit.

And while 68% of the Scots voters did not vote SNP, it only makes Ur chance of gaining independence in a referendum less likely to happen, probably ZERO if U keep this up.

At times the SNP remind me of New Zealand sheep.

When the lead sheep (A Salmond) goes BAHH , all the others follow with BAHH..BAHH..BAHH.


Dudes, STOP SQUAWKING and THINK POSITIVE

Happy Haggis Day dude.

GC
393

Andrew Allan,

26/03/2008 18:04:59
#448., Truely English.
Truely E.,I like to look on Scotland, and our people, in a positive manner, unlike those who wish to see us incapable of self reliance. I do not see independence as ripping Scotland apart, or even ripping the UK apart. I see the process as being positive, one in which each country can work for the benefit of their own people, but at the same time increase the power of our shared beliefs within institutions we all belong to.
394

Highland Mighty,

26/03/2008 18:05:45
As it has gone quiet, let's stoke the fires:

1. Despite 11 months of endless complaining, whinging and whining about the UK by Salmond and his cronies.....support for independence has gone DOWN to 23% and support for staying in the UK is UP to 76%.

2. Only 0.5% of Scots have bothered to read the much-publicised flagship manifesto pledge that is the 'White Paper for Independence'. 0.5%.

3. Support for the SNP was an impressive 11% ahead of Labour at the height of the party's political honeymoon in Nov. Sadly, that has dropped 1% a month since then and is only 7% now. At this rate, Labour will be back in front by Christmas.

4. Only 395 people from around the world have signed the Scottish Independence Convention's much-publicised online petition. 395.

The SIC has tragically tried to exaggerate support by claiming over 3,400 have signed. Nope, just 395.

5. Of two petitions on the No.10 website for independence; one has 27 signatures, the other just 5 (that's five!)

6. In a recent poll, 70% of SNP voters say the SNP only won the 2007 election because of the unpopularity of Labour, not the popularity of the SNP.

And my new favourite:
7. The VERY heavily publicised 'National Conversation' set up with great fanfare, AND AT PUBLIC EXPENSE, has attracted input from less than 0.0001% of the population.

Less than 0.0001%.

This latest independence campaign is circling the plughole, following that road trodden by all the previous efforts.

Finally, a pinched cheek and some ruffled hair to the scallywag who can complete these well-known phrases:

'Free by...................'
'Independence Heaven by................'