Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


T in the Park

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Move south, it's too grim up north, says Tory think tank



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 13 August 2008
A LEADING Tory think tank is urging people from cities in the north of England to move south if they want a better life.
Cities such as Liverpool are beyond revival and millions of their residents should move to London and the South-east instead, the Policy Exchange think tank claims today in a report.

The conclusion will prove controversial and is untimely as the
Tory leader, David Cameron, starts a tour of regional cities today to try to win over sceptical voters.

Coastal cities such as Liverpool and Sunderland had "lost much of their raison d'être" with the decline of shipping and had "little prospect of offering their residents the standard of living to which they aspire," the report states.

It was time to be "realistic about the ability of cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle to regenerate struggling neighbours, such as Liverpool, Bradford and Sunderland.

"No-one is suggesting that residents should be forced to move, but we do argue that they should be told the reality of the position: regeneration, in the sense of convergence, will not happen, because it is not possible," the authors conclude.

The university cities of Oxford and Cambridge were well placed to become economic power-houses, the report argues, like the industrial north in the past.

The authors included Tim Leunig, a lecturer in economic history at the London School of Economics, who says:

"The issue is clear: current regeneration policies are failing the very people they are supposed to be helping."

And he added: "There is no evidence that the trend will be reversed without radical changes."



The full article contains 279 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 August 2008 11:56 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Conservative Party
 
1

Soup kitchen,

13/08/2008 00:04:22
Not very bright idea. Only educated/skilled people can move easily.

These cities will just get worse until they resemble Wales after the coalmines closed.
2

ThomasP,

13/08/2008 00:05:54
"Cities such as Liverpool are beyond revival and millions of their residents should move to London and the South-east instead."

It's great to see who gets priority in the United Kingdom.
3

ThomasP,

13/08/2008 00:09:35
#1

To be quite fair, it does not matter about the level of skill or your educational background. If you choose to move to a richer part of the country then you can skill find low-paid work because of the stuck up prats who are 'to good' for that type of work.

I suspect it would actually be eaiser to find work in that part of Britain because of the amount of wealth is spent and which creates jobs for everyone else.
4

,

13/08/2008 00:27:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Richard,

west lothian 13/08/2008 00:47:27
As Bruce's Pile points out, this is old news.

So unionists, is this our "union dividend"?
6

Fanling,

Switzerland 13/08/2008 01:19:10
Simplistic headline, simplistic story.

London-centric Tory think-tanks routinely trot out this drivel over their muesli breakfasts, safe in their insular little fastnesses, and secure incomes. Their comprehension of northern conurbations and what exists beyond their safe havens borders on zero. It's a dream-a-policy life to justify their existences.

The North, so to speak, might be a damn sight better off zipping a boundary between London and all points beyond the London boundaries north and west.

7

Guga II,

Rockall 13/08/2008 01:23:23
#4 Doonhamer.

That sounds like an excellent idea.
8

Conan the Librarian™,

13/08/2008 01:59:44
9
Col
"Snake Plisskin?" I heard he was dead.
9

henrymanchester,

UK 13/08/2008 03:06:00
Bag packed...Cloth cap on head...Mustn't forget my sun lotion....
10

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 13/08/2008 04:38:45
What vision!

It's all about London - this is a slap in the face for all who live in these cities
11

Nikostratos,

13/08/2008 05:34:34
"A LEADING Tory think tank is urging people from cities in the north of England to move south if they want a better life"

I think they mean move south in to france.....
12

ennerdale27,

sale cheshire 13/08/2008 07:18:11
This report is Home Counties drivel dressed up as an analysis and appears to be internally inconsistant.
We are tols that current policies "are not working" but
that Manchester and Newcastle have been succeful.
Manchesters' success is not due to the Tories - there aren't any.
13

Boy Wonder,

13/08/2008 08:12:38
I'm with #4 Doonhamer! You couldn't pay me to live down south!
14

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 13/08/2008 08:41:11
This report tells you everything you need to know about metro-centric Tory academics who, if this report is to be treated seriously, are prepared for selfish economic and social reasons to write off the future of whole swathes of the population of the "unfashionable" North of England!

With the exception of right-wing political anoraks, who has ever heard of this "leading Tory think-tank"?

15

Doh,

13/08/2008 08:43:23


This story and the one about Trade Union backing for a Labour leadership candidate just show how the two sectarian parties havent changed at in the last 20 years.

Labour panders to middle England while the Tories cuddle hoodies - all pathetic attempts to maximise their appeal by pretending to be something they are not. These stories reminds us of their roots.

Buyer beware.
16

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 13/08/2008 09:08:19

Now we know how "london" thinks. Anything north of the Watford Gap is in the nether regions. No wonder we Scots want to get on with our own development as a nation, hence our legitimate desire to run our own affairs. I wonder how the arch unionists will respond to this.
17

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 13/08/2008 09:08:23

Now we know how "london" thinks. Anything north of the Watford Gap is in the nether regions. No wonder we Scots want to get on with our own development as a nation, hence our legitimate desire to run our own affairs. I wonder how the arch unionists will respond to this.
18

Nikostratos,

13/08/2008 09:14:05
Its the kind of political philosophy(laissez-faire ) which led to the Irish potato Famine catastrophe......
19

Nikostratos,

13/08/2008 09:17:15
#17 doh

And nationalist parties haven't changed since Germany 1933......"Arbeit Macht Frie" ......
20

Steve_HMFC,

13/08/2008 09:17:53
The people who come up with things like this have probably never been up north... at least people in places like Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle have much better personalities than cockneys or other southerners.

For a more detailed rant go to youtube and type in "Jeff Stelling rant."

Btw BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/scotland_politics/7557933.stm
John MacDougall MP has passed away, god bless and parayers for his family.
21

Arrow,

edinburgh 13/08/2008 09:29:29
a bit of an oxymoron is it not "Tory Think Tank" a bit like "police intelligence".
clearly if everyone moved south wot lived in the Norf the saaf east would have all the cleaners it needed.
one assumes that Newcastle could move north back to Scotland? but in between what about in between there and Watford Gap? would it become a large estate for those and such as those moving out of London to avoid the great unwashed (as there would no be enough water to go around a population of 45 million in the SE).
i wonder what the the insular wee souls wot read the Evening Standard will make of this.
22

Rodster,

Glasgow 13/08/2008 09:51:05
Madness , complete and utter madness!!!
Yes these northern cities are in decline , they need massive investment they suffer the same syndrome as Scotland the only difference is they do not have the option of Independence.
We need to devolve more from The south East it is too overcrowded the transport infrastructure is creaking ,there is a chronic shortage of affordable housing. They build hospitals and schools to match the growing population but the teachers and porters etc cannot afford to live there to staff them .
We should immediately devolve hundreds of thousands of civil service jobs throughout the UK to ease the overcrowding and regenerate the north .
In doing this other businesses would have to follow to support the same civil servants.
New houses and roads would need to be built creating jobs and wealth in these run down cities.
New industries would spring up to take advantage of the new influx of workers .
The SE would ease in numbers providing more space and a better quality of life for all in SE .
This way the entire UK benefits not just the city fat cats that want to centrelise everything in the "state of London "


From the Common Sense Think Tank!!!
23

Alan B,

13/08/2008 10:12:00
This the problem with the tories. They really are at their core a south of england party. It is for this reason that they have alienated the north of britain.

The scottish tories must address this issue and how they can give a distinctive scottish view if they are to recover in scotland.

Labour simply have sold out in the last 10yrs. They went on about the north south divide in opposition and what they were going to do and when in power did next to nothing. Quite simply they need south of england and middle england votes and as such have not adressed the deep inbalances created through the north south divide.

While devolution has improved things for scotland (even if far too weak) the centralisation of power at westminster is detrimental to the uk as a whole. This over centralisation for so long will take strong decisions and restructing to put right.

Simple things like why is there no motorway to newcastle to the south. Why is their no motorway from newcastle to edinburgh? Why did it take glasgow so long to get a motorway to the south? Why is their no high speed rail to link the north and the south? Why no direct rail link from north of london to the continent via the channel tunnel? Why do we have wait for the eu to force competition on the channel tunnel?

But the biggy if you really want to address the north south divide you would be best relocating westminster to manchester and moving all the government depts to other cities within the uk. Treasury and renamed bank of england to glasgow. Foreign office to edinburgh. Defence to Newcastle. Education, health, social security to leeds etc. Move the whole of whitehall to liverpool. BBC could also be headquartered in Manchester. By moving the seats of power you would fundamentally address the problems.
24

PaulW,

Borders 13/08/2008 10:12:59
#22.

As a nationalist myself, rather than a Labour supporter, can I also extend my sympathies to Mr MacDougall's family. Mr MacDougall had what I understand to be a terrible illness, suffered by many workers fromhis era, and his death at such a relatively young age is a real tragedy. I think we should all follow Steve's example and spare a thought for them all for a while.

On the issue at hand, I am with #4 on this. We can now see how highly the new Tory party value the North of England and Scotland and this just confirms what we knew, i.e. that policy makers always have in mind the needs of the golden South East when framing policy.

If I were living there (North East or North West England), I would be pushing hard for regional government to provide a counter-balance to the centralising instincts of Whitehall. While the report is independent of whitehall, it may well signal the thoughts of similar individuals there too.

Obviously, with Independence we can develop policies that are bespoke for Scotland and not be locked into monetary policy designed to cool inflation in the South East. The UK as an entity is imbalanced. Scotland was growing at only a modest rate, but has had to suffer monetary tightening because the MPC at the Bank of England have their hands tied in that they have to control CPI driven by the overheating experienced in the Southern half of England, which dominates all economic commentary. So every time Scotland just about gets motoring, the Bank of England has to choke off that growth spurt. It has no real choice, as its remit is to control UK inflation. As in Scotland we have no real fiscal powers, we can't counteract or offset the impact of the one-size-fits all monetray policy.

I appreciate that Independence in Europe means we would be having (ultimately) decisions taken by the European Central bank, but we would have direct representation on that at least, unlike the Bank of England, and we would be able to exercis
25

danielrober,

13/08/2008 10:13:40
# 24 Rodster,Glasgow

Well said.

Though i undestand the Tories frustration. Some of the locals in the North will chose to deal with anyone other than a CONservative. This suff you attitude, from a 'minority' of loud people has happend to such an extent that some areas act more like a collection of principality states rather counties.

The conservatives just have to understand that they do not need to employ these local princes/princes(or warlords) and stick to normal civil service application processes.

Still at least they are thinking about the problem again.
26

Puzzler,

Edinburgh 13/08/2008 10:16:21
So that's it is it? Everybody move to London. That's the big plan?!!!

I suppose at least they are being honeset. IT has always been painfully clear that for msot hi heidyins in the capital the rest of the country barely existed.

How any group of thinkers can simply propse eto abandon the rest of England, let alone Scotland and Wales and focus on a single city in a country with a population of nearly 60 million is beyond me. No other comparable country behaves in this ridiculous one-eyed manner

They have shown themselves unfit for purpose.
27

PaulW,

Ayton 13/08/2008 10:16:30
..... from 26

......exercise the fiscal levers to help manage demand in the context of a fiscal tightening. Hence, samll countries within the EU can bee effective in responding to economic crisis, as they are more nimble in policy terms.
28

Steve_HMFC,

13/08/2008 10:20:45
#26

Exactly, obviously there will be by-election which is sure to have huge political consequences but for now Labour should be sad for his death not sad they might lose another seat and Nats should be respectful of his death before rushing into by-election fever.

Scotsman headline "Brown faces election pressure following death of Glenrothes MP John MacDougall" is exactly the opposite of what his family should have to read on the day his death becomes public
29

The Answer,

Glasgow 13/08/2008 10:25:49
Yorkshire and The Humber (Y+H) is doing just fine, 10,000 more males are in employment in Y+H than in the whole of Scotland.

Population aged 16+

4,179,000 Y+H
4,181,000 Scotland

Economically Active Males

1,441,000 Y+H
1,396,000 Scotland

Males in Employment

1,345,000 Y+H
1,335,000 Scotland

Public sector jobs

493,000 Y+H
586,000 Scotland


The last thing Y+H needs are more public sector jobs, Scotland is a fine example of the public sector killing the private sector.
30

Alan B,

13/08/2008 10:26:21
#PaulW

"Scotland was growing at only a modest rate, but has had to suffer monetary tightening because the MPC at the Bank of England have their hands tied in that they have to control CPI driven by the overheating experienced in the Southern half of England"

You have explained one of the fundamental problems with british economic management.

Overheating in the south causes interest rates in the rest of the uk to be too high. The problem is not necessarily the setting of interest rates per se but the failure of government address this structural imbalance.

Problem for scotland is we know neither the tories nor labour will address the issue and as such sterling is inappropriate for scotlands economy. In contrast the euro (and dm prior to that) has had lower interest rates over a longer period of time and is more appropriate to scotland economic needs.

One of the fundamental issues regarding the union is in its current form we cannot discuss within the scottish parliament whether we should be using the euro despite both lib dems and labour being official for its adoption. In or out the union scotland should be deciding whether to participate in the euro. At the very mininmum we need an independent economic assessment of the euro adoption impact on the scottish economy.
31

Alan B,

13/08/2008 10:28:58
#Steve_HMFC

"Scotsman headline "Brown faces election pressure following death of Glenrothes MP John MacDougall" is exactly the opposite of what his family should have to read on the day his death becomes public"

Completely agree it was a very distasteful headline. (Also a pity you could not offer condolences on that thread.)
32

Rodster,

Glasgow 13/08/2008 10:29:49
#25 Alan B I think we are agreeing violently here , although I have to admit you're posting is more articulate!
33

danielrober,

13/08/2008 10:30:27
# 25 Alan B,

There are a number of physical infrastructure projects that would benefit everyone, making the UK far more efficient. The complete dueling of the A9, A303, a high speed rail link from Edin-Nott, etc, etc.

Yet moving small departments out of London offers the greatest benefit to everyone, including London. The old Manderins did they job the way they had too, but that's the past. Modern infrastructure can make small civil service roles/departments more desirable and feasible.

The small movement of the Met office to Exeter has been another success, one that should be emulated. The mvement of small speacialist departments will not affect London, but will greatly benefit small towns.
34

Alan B,

13/08/2008 10:42:53
#danielrober

It was said years ago (80s) if the government had moved the dept of energy to Aberdeen then oil companies would have located their and not london.

We really have to ask why a company like BP was based in london when oil was generally a northern resource. At the time 70s/80s it was a nationalised company albeit with a different name.
35

Steve_HMFC,

13/08/2008 10:47:18
#32 #35

Its unfortunate you cant comment on it to offer condolences, probably for the same reason OF stories cant be commented on (and then they all come on Hearts stories with their sectarian bile instead!!) in that there is always a small minority of idiots who ruin it for everyone.

36

,

13/08/2008 10:51:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Wildeman,

Newcastle upon Tyne 13/08/2008 10:52:42
I moved away from London in 2003 to Newcastle, because of its incredible transformation into a vibrant, lively city where skills are rewarded and regeneration is a palpable reality everywhere. I fell in love with the easily accessible countryside around the city, and the coast half an hour by metro, the arts and culture scene, and the fun-loving Geordies. A couple of my incredulous London friends who became regular visitors have ended up staying.

London has lots to offer, but LIVING there is hard work for most. The QUALITY of life in the North East is very much higher than many parts of London which are dirty, violent overcrowded, unfriendly and definitely "grim". Average earnings may be lower here, but it would be a mistake to equate that with poverty; your pound goes further here. -Despite taking a significant cut in salary, I was able to buy a 4 bedroomed house in Newcastle for less than the Streatham "studio" (that's a "bedsit" to you and me)I was offered before I decided to move.

Only a fool would recommend increased migration to the overcrowded South; the smart people are moving to places like the North East where crime is lower, there's SPACE to live and contrary to the fantasies of this "report", improvements can be seen everywhere. The region's economy was destroyed in the seventies but it says much about the people here and their attitude to life that they have managed to turn things around. Tory anti northern propaganda will do little to change that. As an older Geordie friend commented today, "Anyone who moves to London is a fool! We can do without them, they come back in the end."
38

Doh,

13/08/2008 10:57:03
#38 Alan B

Must say a but disappointed in you on this one.
You have let your nationalist fervour overcome your normal good sense. You say:

"We really have to ask why a company like BP was based in london when oil was generally a northern resource."

The answer is quite simple. The latter part of you sentance is incorrect, the middle east oil fields do not lie to the north. They are actually south of London. BP was originally called the Anglo-Persian Oil Company.

By the way I am not Vince Cable, who in fact used to work for BP in Glasgow, which is also to the north of London. Just a thought.
39

Mallory,

Edinburgh 13/08/2008 11:02:01
Maybe Liverpudlians should return to the old sod..
40

The Master,

13/08/2008 11:11:59
#44: Life carries on etc, you sanctimonous pr*t!
41

danielrober,

13/08/2008 11:18:10
# 38 Alan B,

I can agree with that.

What we have today though is a different opportunity. After deindustrization we ended up with hundreds of unappraciated SME's in the pivate sector (employing 10,000's). Yet they were wasted due to neglect and lack of governmental backing, because they just were too small to be noticed.

Today we have the same problem in the civil service. Excellent little departments that make a difference to our economy, but have little weight in London.

So why not move the department for fish farming to Oban, balanced by moving the near offshore fishing department to Plymouth, but the head quaters would still be in London o be close to the MP's. Local offices can do national work, as shown recently by Exeter.
42

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 11:19:36
Rodster (24): "We should immediately devolve hundreds of thousands of civil service jobs throughout the UK to ease the overcrowding and regenerate the north ."

Thousands of civil service jobs have already been moved from the south-east: they are insufficient to regenerate these northern cities. Tactless that the report is, it is correct that the primary economic reasons for, say, Liverpool, are long past. Moving public sector jobs is simply redistributing wealth via tax. It will not bring back the prosperity of towns based on industries which have disappeared.
43

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 11:24:20
Wildeman (41): "Only a fool would recommend increased migration to the overcrowded South; the smart people are moving to places like the North East where crime is lower, there's SPACE to live and contrary to the fantasies of this "report", improvements can be seen everywhere."

In fact the report is positive about Newcastle, as well as Manchester and Leeds, and rightly so. Its only doubt is that the economies of these cities are not sufficiently large to regenerate nearby Sunderland, Liverpool and Bradford respectively. This is not an anti-northern report.
44

Lianachan,

Highlands 13/08/2008 12:20:32
If the kind of people who would move south on the back of a report by a Tory think tank DO actually move, then their absence in "the north" (several hundred miles south of me) will improve that region anyway.
45

danielrober,

13/08/2008 12:21:27
Fairfax,

At least the Tories are sitting down and thinking about this propblem. Pretending that there is not a problem, which seems to be the policy of the SNP, Labour and Lib Dems is just not working. So keep up the effort.

Effort - that's all most of us want from our government, people who address the hard problems, not the smile and trust me I'm 'NEW', 'DIFFERENT', 'SPECIAL' etc stamp.
46

Alan B,

13/08/2008 12:46:11
#42 Doh

I was not trying to make a nationalistic point. My point is regarding the location of certain uk organisations and the reason behind their choice of location.

My use of BP was an example, partly based on the fact it was a nationalised company at the time and hence the government like some other industries at the time were in control of head office locations and the power that brings.

Was the location of the uk energy dept in london a reason for energy companies to head quarter in london? It was said (do not know how true it is) that if this dept had been rellocated then companies would follow it. Better still if that dept had not been in london in the first place.

Part of the reason i am a nat is due to the failure of successive governments to address issues round the north south divide.

47

Alan B,

13/08/2008 13:01:17
#48 Fairfax

The issue really is? Does/should the uk government address the north south divide issues? If so how?

For many the tories in the 80s restructured the uk economy from the mess it was in but did it by favouring the south. Creating a "loads a money" south and while the north rotted. Remember the south was not exactly doing well pre-thatcher. An example - Policies like mirus you could argue were damaging to the north while a subsidy aimed more directly at the south.

Coming back the issue, should a uk government address the north south divides.

For me it should. How? The biggest driver for me is the location of power. As such if you really want to effect change you must address the power structures. We have a political centre in london, with all the things that follow from that power structure. This is then fed by having london dominate the media aswell. As such london issues become the important ones.

Over a period of time this feeds itself and you end up with the current situation.

As such for me if you want a one nation british approach you must move westminster from london - manchester being the best option. It is probably the most central big uk city. Regionalisation of england would be another step forward but has the problem that england do not tend to want that. Would personally like to see regional assemblies/parliaments replace house of lords.

Regarding your comments about relocating jobs out of the south. Firstly it has not been done in any big way. The political stuctures are in london. The media ie bbc are in london and nearly all the government depts are based in london. Most of the other related government institutions eg bank of england are in london. All things the government can effect.

From a right wing economic theory it is silly as you are suffocating potential growth in a high growth area. Most public secotr workers could easily get private sector jobs. And from a left wingish point of view it is bonkers to effe
48

Alan B,

13/08/2008 13:03:31
cont...

From a right wing economic theory it is silly as you are suffocating potential growth in a high growth area. Most public secotr workers could easily get private sector jobs. And from a left wingish point of view it is bonkers to effectively be subsidising the wealthiest part of the country. Or if not subsidising atleast locating them where there are tonnes of jobs and wealth anyway.

We now have the crazy situation where public secotr jobs like this are in london and then we need to pay them extra london weightings as it is the most competitive job market, rather than locating these jobs were you would not have to pay this money.

This unevenness has meant that their has already been a large relocation of people to the south with the knock on effect on house prices and infrasture problems caused by overcrowding.

49

Alan B,

13/08/2008 13:07:03
#Lianachan

No one is going to move because of a report. The issue is if it shows that a tory government will run the economy with a view that the north of britain is in effect a hopeless situation and that the economic policy of the country is to encourgage migration south.

We saw that to some degree with the thatcher government before.

How you come to the conclusion that people looking for a job or a better job, having to move south to achieve that will improve the north is beyond me.
50

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 13/08/2008 13:17:36
#1 "These cities will just get worse until they resemble Wales after the coalmines closed."

Yep, shutting the Coal industry was a great idea.

Well done Maggie and Arthur (Scargill).

Now as a country we are energy dependent on the Russians and Europeans to keep the lights burning, and we all pay through the nose for that priviledge.

Only in Britain could we be "energy poor" while sitting on enough Coal to last at least one hundred years.
51

Jock's Away,

Africa 13/08/2008 13:21:16
Are these academics paid for this rubbish? One was on TV today saying it would be closer to Europe. Using their logic for get China, the magnificent cities ports factories and advanced railways are in the wrong place!! they need to be closer to London, Oxford and Cambridge. Bring back MG motors we have a place a Cowley for you. News flash EUROPE is moving to china.
Note for Tories: ask for your money back. The most frightening thing is the authors are the very one teaching the next generation at universities and schools.
52

danielrober,

13/08/2008 14:28:53
# Alan.B & Fairfax

Instead of thinking about miles and compasses, why not think about hrs and minutes.

Edin-Lon is 370 ish mile, Edin-Nott is 250 ish miles. A modern train can cover these distances at 125mph, so Edin-Lon is about 3hrs and Edin-Nott is about 2hrs (on good days with no stops). A TGV will move at a steady pace of 150mph, a Bullet train 175mph and early Maglev at 200mph.

The new tain deigns that some private sector companies are working on, move at 300mph. So Edin-Lon travel time could be 1h 15min and Edin-Nott travel time could be 45min miles. That kind of makes the north-south divide a bit 20th century. We need new plans for the new century, one that the UK (or British Isles) is actually very well placed to benefit from.

Just don't expect a round of applause from our competitors. Can anyne really hear people saying 'yeh the British as a mulitcultural democracy are back - great'.
53

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 13/08/2008 15:02:13
This is not the first time, it was done in Scotland and called the "Highland Clearances" in order to get the sheep and the stags onto estates for the pleasure of the absentees landlords. Just think if the Tories could achieve it...the whole of the north just for leisure activities and second homes for the wealthy. Makes me glad I'm not there!
54

danielrober,

13/08/2008 15:12:27
# 59 Tommy Trout,Alicante, Spain

Yeh, yeh. My family was one of clans cleared. Yet we're still here, we just came back after the troops had gone. People are tougher than you think.

Enjoy the, beer and the Olympics.
55

Nikostratos,

13/08/2008 16:07:58
#53

From a right wing economic theory.....What happens happens Don't interfere..dont move Government reduce it to as little as possible.Public sector what public sector there wouldn't be one and so much less taxation.Oh anyway the snp will be doing it soon enough......
56

Bob Fae Fife,

13/08/2008 16:22:42
Just bide your time, when global warming puts much of the South under water the North will be reborn
57

Alan B,

13/08/2008 16:53:48
#Nikostratos

What are you on about? I was talking about economic arguments for addressing the north south economic divide in the uk. From a leftish/keynes type of view you would move aggregate demand (public sector jobs) away from the wealthiest parts. And from the rightish economic theory of the public sector crowding out the private sector ie it is silly to base most of the public sector where private sector growth is strongest. if you were to move the public sector from the south, northish those employed would easily get and fill the numerous private sector jobs.

The summary of the point is no matter whether you have a rightish or leftish/keynes disposition it makes sense to address the issue.

But under your way of thinking is ignore the issue scotland does not really matter. A union at any cost but who cares.

58

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 16:58:49
Alan B (54): "This unevenness has meant that their has already been a large relocation of people to the south with the knock on effect on house prices and infrasture problems caused by overcrowding."

I have no objection to parts of the civil service being moved elsewhere, nor to the BBC being moved. However, little will change in London if this occurs: the wealth of London and the South-East is not generated by the public sector. The general effect on the UK economy will also be small, since salary savings will likely be balanced by the resulting costs of staff movement and coordination. However, we do begin from different axioms: I don't believe governments should do anything about the north-south divide, such as it is. Further, many parts of the north are doing well, whilst there are many pockets of poverty in the south, so the generalization is a poor one in my view.
59

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 17:09:17
Alan B (55): "The issue is if it shows that a tory government will run the economy with a view that the north of britain is in effect a hopeless situation and that the economic policy of the country is to encourgage migration south."

That's not my interpretation at all: it specifically mentions the strong economies of Leeds, Newcastle and Manchester. Its conclusion is, I would say, that some former industrial cities, such as Liverpool, will not regenerate no matter how much money is spent on them -- so it's time to stop spending yet more tax pounds on over-optimistic regeneration projects. The report has specifically mentioned Oxford, Cambridge and London as possible locations for further expansion, but its conclusion is not that all should move south. It would presumably equally recommend Edinburgh as a possible new location.
60

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:14:35
#Fairfax

"However, little will change in London if this occurs"

I agree. I am not suggesting londons wealth is due to public sector.

"I don't believe governments should do anything about the north-south divide"

Do not really understand your rational for that statement.

I think firstly the question is have government policies brought about part of that north south divide. To my mind it has, as i believe the governments ie the tory thatcher government bought into evening standard economics of london first. ie decision must be made for the benefit of london rather than the uk as a whole as a booming london is the key stone of any successful british economy. It follows the idea that all headquarters must be located in london and regional plants can then be located in different parts of the country.

Secondly while governments do not run the economy as such they do create the environment for a successful economy. The north south divide is about less jobs and less decent jobs in the north ie lower economic growth. It surely falls on the government to try to address this and try to improve the economic growth rate. A government that simply says it will not try to address poor economic performance is negligent.

Monetary policy also has an impact. We currently have a situation were interest rates over the past few decades are set higher than needed for the north so causing higher unemployment and less economic growth, together with the fact interest rates should problably be higher for the south. It really does no-one any good. Interest rates are a blunt instrument but one of the most fundamental. We need to address the structural problems with the economy so that interest rates can be set more beneficially for the uk economy.

"The general effect on the UK economy will also be small"

I think that statement is wrong. I think addressing having the north booming like the south would make the uk much richer. The uk over the last decade has been outperf
61

Nikostratos,

13/08/2008 17:15:24
#64 Alan B,

Sorry but I am a tad exhausted from standing up.....its just i cant find a seat.......they appear to be all taken by the snp.

laissez-faire is not my cup of tea...but it is the torys(plus some snp supporters) and it means leave it alone unless of course the workers get a bit uppity.then u send in the old bill to duff em up a bit
62

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:20:03
#66 Fairfax

I have not read the report but more how a paper like the scotsman will report it.

The tories have a reputation for being only interested in the south. Whether that is true or not, there is that perception. This type of report will play to that perception.

The tories managed to wipe themselves out in scotland and wales with no mps and now very few. They also have a poor representation in the north of england.

Writing off liverpool is not exactly going to change that perception.

As for pouring money in. I would suggest much more money has been poured into london (rightly or wrongly) that places like liverpool or sunderland.
63

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:23:28
#Nikostratos

My point was about moving the source of power away from london along with public sector organisations eg bbc it has little to do with "laissez-faire". (That is a different agrument)
64

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:26:53
cont.. #Fairfax got cut of in #67

I think that statement is wrong. I think addressing having the north booming like the south would make the uk much richer. The uk over the last decade has been outperformed massively by the small european countries that make up the arc of prosperity. why? david david is the only uk politician that i have heard actually address that issue. It also would alieviate the housing problems.
65

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 17:30:45
Alan B (67): "Do not really understand your rational for that statement."

As I said, I believe we have different axioms. I'm clearly much more laissez faire.

"I think firstly the question is have government policies brought about part of that north south divide."

My view here is that government control of nationalized industries had, since the war, attempted to prolong the life of sectors which should simply have been allowed to die. This was a well-intentioned policy, but became untenable in the 1970s. Although the Thatcher government was tactless in the extreme, I can see little choice in retrospect.

"It surely falls on the government to try to address this and try to improve the economic growth rate. A government that simply says it will not try to address poor economic performance is negligent."

Again, we have different axioms. I don't believe it's the government's job to address poor economic performance in this way, not least because government attempts to promote growth so often fail dismally, despite spending vast amounts of money.
66

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 17:35:20
Alan B (71): "The uk over the last decade has been outperformed massively by the small european countries that make up the arc of prosperity. why?"

The South-East of England has outperformed that arc of prosperity, as has Edinburgh. It would be excellent if we could duplicate that across the island, but I don't think there are any easy answers.
67

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:42:05
#Fairfax

I do not support nationalisation of industries. And i do think part of the problem for thatcher was she inherited such a mess with the uk economy in competitive decline since the end of ww2. I do agree with the the underlying reforms of the thatcher period but i think much of it was handled poorly. ie i do not support unions, do think interest rates should be set to control inflation and not incomes policies which was the rage in the 70s, and do support a competitive tax regime.

"despite spending vast amounts of money."
I do not support a high tax environment or throwing money at problems to sort out economic issues. I also do not support a keynesian approach.

I personally see 2 things. Is having a very centralised power structure in the uk based in the south leads to wealth gravitating towards their with policies set for the south rather than the whole country.

Secondly governments should try to improve the supply side of the economy. eg Transport infrasture etc.





68

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:44:26
#73 Fairfax

I am not doubting the south east has done very well economically since the mid 80s.

I have worked in london in the past off and on for 9yrs due to the employment opportunities.
69

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:46:51
#Fairfax

"It would be excellent if we could duplicate that across the island, but I don't think there are any easy answers"

I do not actually think it is that difficult. The problems are political. A tory party that favours the south and labour that favour making the economy progressively less competitive ie they prefer to spend money that generate it.



70

Alan B,

13/08/2008 17:54:49
#Fairfax

" I don't believe it's the government's job to address poor economic performance in this way, not least because government attempts to promote growth so often fail dismally, despite spending vast amounts of money. "

Problem with that. I support lower corporation taxes to improve competitiveness and try to improve economic growth like ireland.

If you take your view then you would not alter tax policy to improve economic competitiveness as economic growth is not to be attempted by government.
71

hertscot,

13/08/2008 18:40:32
Oh let's vote for the tories, THATCHERS' ghost has arrived, concentrate the wealth in SE England and all will be wine and roses.

And some of you f***ing idiots will vote for it, bloody sheep, BAA, BAA, BAA.
72

GaryL,

Buxton - just about the 'north' 13/08/2008 19:04:41
Ah! The poor north gets another bashing from the London-based media power centre. We had years of abuse from the tories and it seems this is set to continue from another (imminent) tory government. Have these people ever been to Liverpool or Manchester? Liverpool has made huge strides in recent years.

Invest in the south, give it the Olympics and other projects, which in turn generate jobs in support industries and administrations; deny the north needed transport hubs and other vital projects which in turn leads to its decline. Then claim the north is unable to turn around its relative decline. The lunacy of these people knows no bounds. Would they tolerate such prejudice in other european nations?


All I can say is oppose Scottish independence. Don't leave the northern English to the mercy of the tories!

Gary

73

lulach mac gille coemgain,

13/08/2008 19:55:47
Aw this and England is sinking into the sea whilst Scotland is rising out of it - aaah - I see the Tory plan now . . . droon the northern commoners !
74

Southern Emigre,

Bracknell 13/08/2008 21:20:34
Despite the report counting Scotland as merely a region - and the report does claim to be analysing the UK not just England for those that can be bothered to read it - it acknowledges "Scotland’s decision to do something differently benefits everywhere else."
75

Finnking,

Lempäälä 13/08/2008 22:20:32
So, the job rich/labour starved London firms need cheaper labour becuase growth is down to zilch, aye?

The Tories are all set to transfer even more power to the southern industrialists, aye?

What's new?

Same thing in Finland with most of the population in the south and the north withering away, scratching a living out of elk meat and tourism. And vodka sales.

Business gravitates to centres of power. Distribute the government around the British Isles and the clearances will decrease.
76

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 22:58:22
GaryL (78): "Have these people ever been to Liverpool or Manchester? Liverpool has made huge strides in recent years."

The report specifically mentions the economic performance of Manchester. However, despite Liverpool's progress, the report's point is that there is relatively little to show given the sums of money spent. At some point, given finite resources, such decisions must be taken. It might be better, for example, if Liverpool's funding was partly redirected to Manchester and Newcastle, for example.
77

Fairfax,

13/08/2008 23:06:04
Alan B (76): "If you take your view then you would not alter tax policy to improve economic competitiveness as economic growth is not to be attempted by government."

My view is one opposing economic dirigisme, not opposition to all government action: I wish to reduce government, but do not argue for its complete impotence. I agree that tax policy promoting competitiveness is generally good, not least if the policy is to reduce tax and government.
78

jahbulon,

wales 14/08/2008 11:01:35
Familiarise yourselves with Agenda 21- While they overpopulate the already overcrowded cities (with everyone fighting over an increasingly limited amount of jobs) the elite will be rewilding your patch -

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.