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Murphy says new deal will keep Clyde working for next 15 years

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Published Date: 03 July 2009
AN AGREEMENT to be signed within weeks will help ensure defence work for the Clyde for the next 15 years, Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy has claimed.
With fears over the future of two of the Clyde's last remaining shipbuilding yards, Mr Murphy announced yesterday that their futures may be secured with work on a new generation of frigates.

A secret memo that emerged this week raised concerns
that once the giant aircraft carrier contract came to an end in 2014, warship builder BVT's Scotstoun yard in Glasgow could close due to a lack of orders.

And there are worries too about BVT's Govan yard. Between them, the two yards have a dependent workforce of 4,000.

However, after a meeting with BVT yesterday Mr Murphy said the "terms of business agreement" between the Ministry of Defence and warship builder BVT would offer "real assurance" for future jobs.

The SNP yesterday challenged the UK government to stand by the yards and make sure work was provided to keep them open. SNP defence spokesman Angus Robertson said the government should guarantee shipbuilding contracts beyond the aircraft carriers, including transportation vessels and speeding up frigate replacement.

Mr Robertson said: "As a UK minister, Mr Murphy must categorically rule out his government's behind-the-scenes support for the closure of these yards."

The author of the leaked memo, BVT surface fleet chief executive Alan Johnston, who accompanied Mr Murphy on yesterday's visit, insisted the document was no more than the type of "worst-case scenario planning" conducted by all prudent firms.

He said: "What we are looking at in these stolen documents are planning scenarios. We are looking at planning scenarios on the downside, but our aim is to drive for the upside of this business – and we see a very solid future here on the Clyde."

Mr Murphy insisted: "There's seven years of work here, and we are looking over the next few weeks to sign an agreement that would guarantee some work for the next 15 years.

"The Clyde has a remarkable history in shipbuilding, but it also has a big future."

BVT employs 7,000 workers at the Govan and Scotstoun yards in Glasgow, at Portsmouth and at a facility in Bristol.

The terms of business agreement to be signed shortly is understood to be a 15-year pact setting out how the Ministry of Defence and the company will work together.

It was expected to include provision for up to 18 new-generation frigates to replace the Type 22 and Type 23 vessels. Mr Johnston said that steel for these could begin to be cut in 2013 and Govan could be a contender: "I would suspect that's a prospect."

Decisions on where these would be built had not yet been made but the firm had the flexibility to switch work between its yards – as shown by work now under way at Scotstoun on vessels which had started to be constructed at Portsmouth.

Mr Johnston said: "First, this is the first time in a generation that a shipyard can look seven years forward and see a steady, full order book.

"We have to be confident that we are signing a 15-year agreement with the MoD which commits sole-source activity – BVT – to provide the Future Surface Combatant (the frigates].

"In terms of the agreement, I am confident we will have those ships in design and construction over the next few years, ready to start steel cutting in 2013."

Analysis

THE combination of the threat to jobs in two of Scotland's most iconic industries – whisky and shipbuilding – has focused minds on the real political battleground of the next two years.

Both the SNP and Labour were in an almost indecent hurry over the last few days to lay the blame with each other for job losses in the Clyde and the Johnnie Walker plant at Kilmarnock.

The reason for this is the political portrayal of the recession.

The SNP is keen to blame job losses on Labour for being responsible for the recession at a UK government level and argue that as the Scottish Government it does not have the powers to tackle it.

But Labour want voters to see the recession as a worldwide phenomenon outside their control and ask why SNP ministers are not using their powers to support jobs. In the end whoever wins this blame game will be the one who comes off best in the general election next year.





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  • Last Updated: 03 July 2009 11:07 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Shipbuilding
 
1

,

02/07/2009 22:01:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

Brianwci,

03/07/2009 00:44:30
Newsnetgeneral, sounds like a good idea to me. Good luck with it.
3

Brianwci,

03/07/2009 00:54:02
As for Murphy saving the shipyards. Sounds like a set up to me.

First the FEAR: Shipyard to close.

Second: Super Murph to the rescue.

Third: Shipyards saved for at least 15 years.

ANOTHER BENEFIT OF BEING PART OF A LARGER UNION.....

....FORGETTING OF COURSE IT WAS THE LARGER UNION WHO THREATENED TO CLOSE THE YARD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

4

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 00:59:49
"will keep Clyde working for next 15 years"
Now I wonder if Murphy means that as a charity donation which would of course be withdrawn should Scots dare leave this Union or does he mean it is because they are the most highly skilled team available and are the best candidates to do the job ? I kind of suspect the former would be the standard position which is rather demeaning and just part of long standing Labour desire to nurture Scottish dependency sub culture. For the latter no doubt an Independent Scotland would still have the same skills, and no doubt invest to improve them further, so would still be in a position to win via EU tendering rules the most competitive bid to build war toys for England if that is something they still continue to deem necessary. Equally the world class Scottish ship builders would be in a position to bid on other tenders and of course like any good business diversify
their business model to include not just war toys as their exclusive market. Even the most junior of businessmen know that putting all your eggs in one basket is utter stupidity.
5

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 01:04:53
#1

All hail Newsnet Scotland...How can we donate?
6

,

03/07/2009 01:10:26
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7

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 01:12:43
? signed within weeks? would that be the same week as a glasgow by-election by chance?
8

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 01:18:24
The yards have five years worth of work on their order books.

"Secret" memo released - saying both yards are in jeopardy after then.

Murphy pulls another 10 years worth of orders out of his backside.

START TO FINNISH...THREE DAYS!

What are we going to get as an encore?

=============================================

Gordon Brown declaring that Great Britain has frigates lodged up it's bumhole...and all Alex Salmond has is Yellow Poo!
9

Edward,

03/07/2009 01:24:54
This is a typical Labour lie!
The fact of the matter when Murphy was pressed on future jobs, he conveniently fudged over the issue
There is NO guarantee any more due to new EU regulations concerning open competition, which is why
in news stories in the south of England they are told that contracts for building ships will go overseas!
All Murphy is doing is setting up the 'if Scotland leaves the union, you will loose jobs' stall
This story will be aired very frequently during the election campaign, in order to scare the workers of Govan to vote Labour
10

Edward,

03/07/2009 01:28:36
Brown now desperate as he sends his lacky Murphy to quell the Govan unions with airy fairy promises of fleets of frigates .
Brown does not like it when the truth is out there that an Independent Scotland would be able to compete on the european stage for work under the new EU open competition regulations. So as besides building Naval ships for Scotland's own navy, it will build for others and not be saddled with the breadcrumbs from Westminster
11

,

03/07/2009 01:30:55
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12

Fletty73,

Stirling 03/07/2009 02:27:21
Do Labour take us for simpletons?

Spreading scare stories, them claiming to save the day.

The crafty Mandelson is now in charge of the country.

Despite not one person voting for him.
13

,

03/07/2009 02:45:23
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14

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 03/07/2009 03:23:32
Sad and Sorry Suzanne, (the tranny). Must you post your inane drivel on EVERY thread? Retorical question as you obviously see it as your duty to type out inflammatory sh0ite in support of the rotten union and the even more rotten NuLiebore Party. If you are a mole for the SNP you are doing a great job getting votes for them. If you are truly a Unionist troll you are the worst weapon they have and that is up against some pretty stiff opposition when you look at their politicians.
15

,

03/07/2009 03:30:31
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16

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 03/07/2009 05:23:25
Little Miss Eco.
17

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 03/07/2009 05:24:47
#14 Sorry Suzanne,
"Good work from Murphy"
The next time that waste of space does any good work will be the first time, I can assure you.
18

steve 1511,

aberdeen 03/07/2009 05:28:50
murphy and lybour as much use to scotland as a nodding dog in the back window of a car

straight jacket for murphy
19

donald,

glasgow 03/07/2009 05:41:11
#4
What a crude con by Labour, MOD, the Tame Unions and the tame media. Do you smell a wee rat?

The management always states a terrifying rumour and then cons the Tame Unions into accepting what they really wanted all along. The mugs then see the Unions and Labour as their "saviours", whilst the management screws them even more.
20

donald,

glasgow 03/07/2009 05:44:48
The Weegie Times has kept up it's anti SNP propaganda by having Broowne, Murphy and Wilson by actually blaming the Johnny Walker closures on Alex Salmond.

It says nothing of the Johnny Walker retainer to a certain Labour Lord, of £8,000 per annum to sleep it of on his watch for Fooks sake.
21

donald,

glasgow 03/07/2009 05:46:35
Weegie ET scares Weegie readers again.

Read the rest for the Unionist Old Firm scares and divisiveness.
22

Geoff,

sa 03/07/2009 06:25:26
Cutting through all the political manouevering, the simple fact is that no matter where Scotland is going politically, its shipbuilding industry has to be competitive to survive.
This is simple economics.
Despite Labours shameful politicking and poor management of the whole decade long Carrier saga(with millions spent and still no start made)it is probably true to say that Scottish yards would be favoured, aswithin the UK, for British defence work for both strategic and reasons of national sentiment.

Its a little rich for Angus Robertson to go on in these circumstances about Scottish shipbuilding jobs, being as he is, a member of the pacifist and anti british SNP whose members are always on about there being no need for the carriers in the first place.

Chilly morning in Durban but clear skies
23

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/07/2009 07:10:03
This fake crisis seems to be more about raising Murphy's profile rather than protecting jobs. Maybe Iain Gray's masters in Westminster are unimpressed by his performance. I see the dead hand of creepy Lord Meddlesome, Secretary for Business and Scaring Little Children.

These Carriers will not get built, they will just keep cynically moving the start date as a political ploy.

When the Tories get in next year and actually see how deeply the Government is in debt, they will have no choice but radically cut Defence Spending to keep Hospitals and Schools from closing.
24

Geoff,

sa 03/07/2009 07:32:49
Morning KampungHighlander-yes ironic that the party that was always stronger on defence might end up having to make the radical cuts-Defence is of course always the soft target. When you think of the billions wasted in Iraq, the cost of the two cariers is really quite modest.
25

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 07:47:56
Spud Murphy also brings the Scots Panda's from China, during a recession......

In China, if you are delivered a white elephant, it's not because of a token of love/admiration/respect etc, it's to bankrupt you.
26

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 08:01:21
EU competition laws do not apply to matters of national security such as warships.
27

DialMforMurdoX,

03/07/2009 08:04:23
Rather ironic is it not that in amongst all this Labour scaremongering, tiny little independent Trinidad and Tobago population 1.3 million, one of the most prosperous and stable democratic nations in the Caribbean, fuelled by a second oil boom, is keeping the Govan yards afloat by ordering one patrol boat and work and maintenance on another two as part of a £150 million order for BVT?

The 90-metre vessels will accommodate 50 fully-equipped troops and have the ability to conduct boardings at sea and carry out helicopter operations.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7934304.stm
28

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:04:27
Good to see the Nat frothers hoist by their own petard. It doesn't matter how much Labour is spinning about this (a lot, as usual) but they can't bring themelves to admit that, as the yards' order books stand at the moment, it's only the Union dividend that's providing the jobs. As we all know, had we already left the Union, the orders wouldn't have been there and, in the future, orders from an 'independent' Scottish navy will be next to nowt. Certainly there would or never will be an aircraft carrier called the SNS Alexander Salmond.
29

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:07:39
#34 DialMforMurdoX

Oooh, a whole patrol boat that carries 50, eh? That should keep the apprentices in work for all of 6 months.
30

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:14:16
BVT surface fleet chief executive Alan Johnston issued a memo contemplating the closure of shipyards in five years time when they have work for fifteen.
Can we assume that Mr Murphy is taking steps to ensure that BVT have him replaced by someone who is more in touch with the state of the company's order book ?
31

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:17:14
35

Yes, you are right. Scotland must continue to suckle at the teat of the Union dividend. Otherwise, Scotland may actually make something of herself.
32

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:24:08
# 38 Andrew Morton

Not my argument. All I'm highlighting is the usual hypocrisy of politicians and the double standards of many Nat supporters on here. Slagging of Labour for allegedly failing to protect jobs that they know they wouldn't be able to protect themselves in similar circumstances. Oh, and you seem to be having no bad a sook at the Anglo-Saxon teat yourself, Andrew, down there in sunny Berkshire. Pip pip.
33

DialMforMurdoX,

03/07/2009 08:24:47
#36 Yep, kep working that cringe baby.

Unfortunately the Govan yard only got the work because BVT Portsmouth fell so far behind in the order.

Astral shipyards of Australia got the order for six of these babies. Each vessel has a maximum speed of 40 knots, a range of 1000 nautical miles and will be armed with General Purpose Machine Guns and a 20mm cannon.

Incidentally, also under construction at Austal’s Australian facilities are four 21.2 metre patrol craft for the Armed Forces of Malta.

Isn't it amazing, Draco, small independent countries with the ability to order new vessels?
34

john z,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:26:13

The cynical plan in full;

1 'leak' a 'memo' suggesting the yards will close.

2 Send Jim p(m)uppet Murphy along for some press coverage and some positive 'pr'

3 Announce that in reality there are fifteen years of orders

4 Labour saves the day

5 Labour win in Scotland.


What a cynical conniving manipulative bunch of LIARS we find in Labour.

Time for Scotland to kick these bare faced liars and manipulators into touch.

And Gordon Liar Brown wonders why people hate him so so much.


Oh and just a wee thing, to those evil liars in Labour who dreamed this wheeze up, consider this; just to deceptively improve your poll ratings, you have put an almost endless list of businesses and workers on the Clyde through the wringer this week.

Labour are finished in Scotland after this.


35

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:26:58
39

Yup, but at least it's money earned that we "sook" and not given......
36

Phil C,

03/07/2009 08:28:32
#35 Draco

It's the union warmongering dividend. Murphy can put his wee pretend Superman outfit on if he wants. Only a switch in production can morally save our shipyards. An independent Scotland will need to face up to not wasting £billions on war machinery, just to keep the yards in work.

It's a big ask but could we maybe try to develop an industry for building commercial ships instead? If we can't compete with the Far East etc, then jobs will need to be relocated in other industries, as we have had to do often in the past. Team UK has been a total flop for us.

We will only have a chance to invest in, and rebuild, our heavy industry in an independent country. Can we afford to? Can we afford not to? I think that the unions have woken up to the fact that we're not in the 1960's any more. There may be a chance.
37

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:30:40
Didn't the Glasgow ship yard complete a couple of cruiser/destroyers for a foreign country a year or so back?

I wonder if that could be repeated, through, um, you know, competition?
38

,

03/07/2009 08:33:06
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39

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:34:37
# 40 DialMforMurdoX

And the point of your argument is? Who's saying small independent countries don't place orders like you're saying? But I wouldn't like to be an apprentice and depending on the next order coming along from Trinidad or Malta. Just like the work from any future Scottish navy would be much less than the RN as it is. And since the 2 Clyde yards seem to be relying on government contracts at the moment, all I'm saying is its fortunate for the workers that AT THE MOMENT, we're still in the UK and the SNP could gave the grace to admit that or, at the least, have the sense to keep quiet rather than attack Labour (however much that's fun and otherwise entirely justifiable)
40

john z,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:36:49
Of course, under this wonderful english union, most of the yards on the clyde have been closed, Surprisingly, new ships are not all getting built in Korea or somewhere else in Asia. No, many cruiseliners including the cunarders are built in Finland and Germany and other European countries.

Another english union 'benefit'

As for order, under EU rules, the clyde shipyards would still be able to bid for work from the english government, as they do now. Orders on the clyde do not depend on the union.

No, the union oversaw the near total destruction of one of Scotland's greatest assets.

Now we Scots get 'scraps' from the english table.

Following the election, those 'frigate orders' will get 'reviewed' and then cancelled.
41

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:38:24
Hang on, wouldn't the RN be proportional if the Union ceased? The RN would have no right or need to patrol the thousands of miles of Scottish coast line and waters, therefore there would be less orders for England too.

If, out of some sort of security measure, they insisted in patrolling the Scots water, then they would have to pass on some of the contracts.

The only thing Spud Murphy has done here is play the spin game. I have read these stories for years now, it's always the same. It's called threats.
42

mad world,

03/07/2009 08:39:52
#38
She might? Possibly.. Then again, maybe not ! I think indepencence is the only way to go..Otherwise we are going to have generations of this bickering.. And what Scotland wants as part of the Union is never going to happen.. Lets take equality with England, a nation of 5.5 million wants equality with 50 million, given that she already has her percentage share of mps given her population this can only mean Scotland 1 vote, England 1 vote.. so 5.5 million has the same voice as 50 million.. hmmmmmmmmmm I'm a unionist at heart, but i'm just tired of the small minded nats continual bitching, look at them, if something goes Scotlands way it's a bribe, if it goes Englands way we want independence.. We all live on the same island more or less . The best bit is even when independent these people will still be blaming the English for everything, oh and the EU.. I do like the concept of Scotland going green with energy, can you see it 'look at Scotland , how we produce most of our energy from green sources' Oh, but were still gonna sell oil to the rest of the world.... go figure!!!!
43

,

03/07/2009 08:41:08
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44

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:41:52
#43 Phil C

You can sneer all you like but, the fact is, it's currently the 'Union warmongering dividend' that's keeping these folk in a job. The state of the shipbuilding industry seems to me to be pretty dire otherwise. I believe world shipping requirements have been dramatically reduced at the moment. I saw only last night that Maersk were mothballing container ships in a loch up North somewhere because they're currently surplus to requirements. So the UK government orders are a God-send to the workers on the Clyde. Orders that an independent Scotland would be unlikely to be placing.
45

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:42:27
47 john z

Wasn't landlocked Checkoslovakia and semi landlocked Poland awarded ship building contracts under the EU tendering process?

Two countries with little to no ship building tradition, no ship yards and in one case, no outlet to the sea?
46

mad world,

03/07/2009 08:42:31
#47
hello again John
hope your well?

'As for order, under EU rules, the clyde shipyards would still be able to bid for work from the english government, as they do now. Orders on the clyde do not depend on the union.'

That doesnt apply to defence contracts!
47

john z,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:42:53
Look, here is the bottom line,

The London government has responsibility to protect ALL shipyards, including those in england. The priority will ALWAYS be those in england under the english union.

A Scottish government would be working only to help the Scottish yards.

Time and again, we have seen Scottish yards sacrificied by english politicians, just to save yards in england in order to win votes.
48

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:44:00
49

Huh? Utterly incomprehensible.
49

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:46:03
53

Thats right, it doesn't apply to defense contracts, but the MOD/Navy can choose to award the contracts to Govan if they want.

However, to re-iterate, does Govan need to be dependent on defense contracts alone? or can they tender for whatever they wish?
50

Phil C,

03/07/2009 08:47:34
#51 Draco

Nobody's sneering. There's a huge gap to fill in developing other new industries in Scotland. The jobs could be switched to producing commercial ships, wind turbines, wave generators or even electric cars. Export markets would be huge. We have the infrastructure and the manpower.
51

Draco Was a Wimp,

03/07/2009 08:52:37
#56 Andrew

I refer you to john z's argument at #54. Sine it would appear that the current UK government's inclination is to protect English jobs over Scottish, just how likely is it that a future ENGLISH government would, in the future , place orders at a Scottish yard at the expense of English ones? (presuming they're still allowed, as they are now, to do so under EU ruleS)
52

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 08:55:18
58 Draco

Very little I'm sure. However, to re-iterate, does Govan need to be dependent on defense contracts?

Additionally, it is quite possible the ickle Scotland could build a wee fleet of her own. However, these defense contracts are merely a conduit to recirculate collected domestic taxes and brings little cash into the economy from the outside.

Correct me if I'm wrong?
53

mad world,

03/07/2009 08:55:44
#54
'Time and again, we have seen Scottish yards sacrificied by english politicians, just to save yards in england in order to win votes. '

Examples please!

Funny you get the same responce in England but the other way round.

And I recently stated the RN engineering facility at HMS Sultan is being move from Gosport, near Portsmouth to Wales.. So how are the English manipulating the English vote there?


54

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 08:57:28
#57 Phil C

All certainly very desirable. I wish Scotland could get back to being more of an engineering powerhouse as you describe. But that's not where we are at the moment. Dreams and aspirations don't pay mortgages and buy food on Clydeside TODAY. The UK government does. If the circumstances remain the same, a Scottish government probably wouldn't. That's all I've argued.
55

mad world,

03/07/2009 08:59:28
#58 Defence is exempt from that EU rule

#59 Assuming an independent Scotland was allocated 9% of the existing Royal Navy, what ships would Scotland be wanting to build?

Patrol craft?

56

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:00:20
62

Why 9%?
57

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:04:16
Oh, and it will almost certainly not be 18 frigate, more like 12 i'd expect

Under the 1999 defence review the Navy should now have 12 destroyers, we have 8...........
58

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 03/07/2009 09:04:19
It is now starting to look like the Johnnie Walker closure at Kilmarnock is following the same pattern as the warship yard closure.

Alex Salmond is painted in the popular Scottish Press as the failed protector of Scottish jobs, then Des Browne suddenly appears, ala Murphy, to save the day. What's the betting that it will not close?
59

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:04:50
#59 Andrew

Again, I refer you to my answer to Phil C at #61. I'm talking the here and now, not what-ifs in the future. I'd love Govan and Scotstoun to once again become the World's biggest producers of bulk carriers, liners, oil tankers and Greenpeace protest vessels. If it was in a separate Scotland, I'm neither here nor there about that. But we're living today. TODAY the yards depend on the UK government because that's the state of the shipbuilding industry. If the state of the industry ws the same today under a Scottish government, it's highly inlikely it would be palcing these orders. That's all. Oh, and by the way, I presume the Scottish government wouldn't need to build a new Scottish navy, we'd inherit approx 8% of the RN.
60

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:07:20
66 Draco

Why 8%? BTW, we MUST consider the future, the present is transient.

Tell me, whats happening to the docks in Belfast (Harland and Wolf)?
61

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:08:57
#63

Got that from an article on the possible divided navy, quite a good article i'll see if i can find a link..
It took into account actual ships rather than just percentages, giving Scotland an effective small navy
62

Phil C,

03/07/2009 09:09:16
#61 Draco

Where we are at just now is a mess. Jobs are being kept for the right reasons but doing the wrong things. An independent Scotland has the potential to redraw the industrial landscape with a clean slate.

Yes there will be changes, and some hardship. But the need for new industries has never been greater. The UK's efforts at managing this need have been pitiful. I think an independent Scotland would do much better.

I repeat, we have the infrastructure and the manpower to vastly improve things. We won't get there without dreams and aspirations. Do we have the guts to try? That's the question.
63

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:11:46
Basic psycology dictates that in order to perform well, one must be under a certain amount of stress.

Living on piece meal handouts applies no stress, therefore no performance. It means Scotland will languish instead of reaching her potential.
64

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:12:46
#59 Andrew

Sorry, I see mad world beat me to it. And I see we're 9% of the population rather than 8. Don't shoot me. And I wonder if you, down there at the moment as you are, count towards it? It could be that wee bit less thanks to yourself. You could be contributing to the loss of a Bofors gun to a future Scottish navy.
65

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 09:14:43
So one minute there is a threat of closure leaked out and the next the Murphy is going to save them thus creating the illusion that Murphy is some kind of hero saving Scotland's warship contribution as controlled, of course, by Murphy's masters in Westmonsterland.

Ho Ho, we'll all fall for that eh?

Independence from Westmonsterland NOW.

You know it makes sense.
66

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:15:54
#67 Andrew

That's all very well. I presume you're not relying on a job at a shipyard to take your kids on holiday this year?
67

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:18:19
#70

Actually thats very true in principle.

And given the caveat that this story is true, you'd describe 15 years of work as piece meal?? This is a good order for the Clyde, offering what on the face of it looks like security for quite a few workers..

68

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:19:49
71 Draco

9% of the population. How about working out the proportions on coastline and area of territorial waters to cover.

See if you can find stats on how much coast line Scotland has and England (sans Wales) and territorial waters assuming Scotland has the same rules applied as England.

No, I'm not relying on a ship yard to take my kids on holiday this year. There will be no holiday for my family this year as we relied on the banking sector to employ us. Not anymore.

See? Nothing is safe.
69

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:20:07
#69 Phil C

And, THAT, Sir, is the $69,000 question. I'll still be wondering that myself as I stand with pencil poised over the referendum paper. Heart, head or a difficult mixture of both.
70

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:21:15
75

Yes, if you consider that doesn't cover either a generation or even a single person career and that there is a possibility that Scotland and her peoples maybe around for a bit longer than 15 years.

Big picture?
71

Phil C,

03/07/2009 09:21:15
#77 Draco

I am unashamedly a dreamer. Without dreams we have no future. Without dreams we make the same mistakes, over and over.
72

mr broon,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:21:31
The Secretary of State makes a bold claim when he knows he won't be around in 15 years time to honour it!

Do the shipyard workers at the two yards on the Clyde really believe that Portsmouth will be sacrificed for both of them?

Remember, in the 1990s when Malcolm Rifkind sacrificed thousands of jobs at Rosyth dockyard by giving the multi-billion Trident nuclear submarine refitting contract to Devonport dockyard in Plymouth.

Politicians have a habit of repeating themselves.
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 09:22:06
#76 Andrew

My commiserations. I hope things improve for you and your family.
74

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:24:41
82 Draco

Thanks! We'll bounce back, always do.
75

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03/07/2009 09:28:41
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76

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:30:38
#75

I'd take 15 years of employemt right now , in a heartbeat.. sorry to hear about your job.. My income is down approx 60% in the last year.. living hand to mouth at the moment and not a good time.. The perils of being self employed.. so again 15 years looks good to me! And let face it in this day and age I dont think theres many out there that would not accept a possible 15 year contract as anything security..

So yes, I am aware of the big picture!
77

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03/07/2009 09:35:55
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Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:42:40
85

I see your point but again, it's not a good diea to be dependent on public sector employment (effectively is what this contract is).

In order to be more competative, Govan et al has to get themselves out there and win foreign contracts, otherwise they cannot break the cycle of being dependent on public handouts.

See what I mean? Defense contracts don't bring any investment from outside the Uk, therefore is not creating economy.
79

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03/07/2009 09:42:56
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Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:45:19
87

Quite the opposite of the the nats think.

"The SNP yesterday challenged the UK government to stand by the yards and make sure work was provided to keep them open. SNP defence spokesman Angus Robertson said the government should guarantee shipbuilding contracts beyond the aircraft carriers, including transportation vessels and speeding up frigate replacement."

C'mon, it's obviously a shared concern, across all parties.
81

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 09:47:00
90

It's called "opinion". I'm no tennis expert, but I think Murray could win this as well.
82

ken 17,

Glasgow Area 03/07/2009 09:52:04
Listen children, the Titanic has resurfaced.
The EU say it must sink again as the rescue did not conform to tendering practises.
Labour to the rescue, Yards have 15 years of work, what do the Portsmouth papers report?
I'll bet that the most interesting conversation will be at Union level, working out how todivvy up the work as management don't seem able
As for 'Worst Case Scenario', any company I ever worked for had these, but nobody ever lat them see the light of day.
Here's a thoufgt for Labour, send the orders to China and let them copy at their leisure, we'll be in no hurry to fit out/commission vessels coz we'll have nobody capable of using them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
83

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:52:48
As someone who has been caught out by public sector contracts ending, i agree with what you say.. And private sector work is even more fickle.. And quite a few of the European yard that did appear to be doing well have government support, in a way that British yards did before Thatcher..
84

mad world,

03/07/2009 09:55:45
#95 is reply to #88
85

Scotfree,

Erskine 03/07/2009 10:02:48
The current regime in Westminster is not likely to last the year so is in no position to promise anything beyond that time and whatever government takes over from blundering Browns regime will inherit the worst run economy in record with massive debts unable to subsidise any pet project.
An independent Scotland would finally have access to the 100-200 billion annual income from Scotland’s oil over the next 50 to 100 years. This would enable it to quickly repair the damage of labour and conservative rule over the last 50 years, which in the case of shipbuilding alone, where in WW2 90% of all ships built were on the Clyde, we now have the spectacle of colonial secretaries making empty promises for remaining yards.
It is likely that A Scottish navy would have to be rebuilt over the next 10-20 years to meet the need of Scottish and European defence, similarly the transport needs with would be vastly upgraded with regular ferries to near 800 islands and 12000 km of coastline to defend, new designs for deep sea oil platforms, and offshore wind and wave platform and independent Scotland would have a thriving and growing shipbuilding industry.
In contrast if it continues under English income from Scotland’s oil will, as they have over the last thirty years, go to London, to prop up its banks and oil companies, to refinance the great casino of the City of London and bankroll traitor politicians like Murphy, Reid, Wilson and their ilk.
86

mad world,

03/07/2009 10:11:31
#97
100-200 billion annual income????????????????????
where did you get that from? I think you'll find it's nearer 10 billion at the moment.

Secondly, and I hate to labour this point.. The oil rights belong to the UK under international law. It only becomes Scotlands oil if and when Scotland becomes an independent country! Now there's a possible reason to vote for independence!
And on the Scottish oil question, take a trip to Shetland and walk around saying it's all Scotlands oil and see what kind of reaction you get!
87

Lianachan,

Highlands 03/07/2009 10:22:42
If Jim Murphy gave every house in Scotland a lump of stone and said it was a tiger repellent, would all of the Labourites on here be posting about how great he is and how he's made all of us safe from tiger attacks in our homes? Based on the way he's presented a solution to a non-existant, made up problem here, I'd say so!
88

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 10:36:48
100

LOL!
89

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03/07/2009 10:50:10
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Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 03/07/2009 10:57:31
102

Do you want to have Murphys children or do you think you're not good enough for his seed?
91

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03/07/2009 11:05:21
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Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 11:08:59
Jim Murphy can't guarantee anything, the Tories may very well bump Glasgow and give the lot to Portsmouth when they get in. it would make political sense for them to do that, after all they can probably gain a few votes down there, they are not going to get them in Glasgow.

It's a shame that the yards are being used as a political football here because they have earned the right to do this work, but t'was ever thus.
93

Herry Oaksters,

03/07/2009 11:15:22
99.
Murhpy doesnt need to worry about tiger attacks as tigers like a bit of meat on their victims.
94

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 11:19:13
Another phoney staged platform for Murphy. When pressed by a reporter from the BBC his bottle went and the BVT guy looked raging that the journos weren't following the script. All Labour are these days is one stunt after another. (I had to check I spelled that right).
95

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03/07/2009 11:26:32
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Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 11:28:52
Rufus how many monikers are you using these days ? Do you not get dizzy ?
97

Brianwci,

03/07/2009 11:38:47
#34 DialM...Excellent post DialM, thanks for the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7934304.stm
98

ukrefusenik,

camelon 03/07/2009 11:41:12
they couldnt be straight if their cowardly souls depended on it , for labourites all politics are to do with lying well . the diminishing returns that they recieve from lying to Scotland , just leads to more and more desperate strategums , more and more self denial , are the labourites going to get their backsides severely kicked at the very next electoral contest ? they can only steal one set of voting returns , the chance of repeating the electoral fraud that was GLENROTHES will be nullified by the extra vigilance of every nationalist in every(winnable)seat in the country . i know because i was forced to post in the so called liberal english broadsheets , that even their erstwhile core support has developed a hatred towards them . they will be humiliated by the tories in engerland . we will watch their every criminal move , like hawks
99

JCA REID,

Annan 03/07/2009 11:45:14
Just Labour politicking. Trying to make this guy Murphy look like a statesman, when he like all the others, are no more than a bunch of Mainwarings or a Hodges characters let loose from their parish council onto a larger stage!! Murphy save anything, don't make me laugh! He couldn't save the last scotch pie being yaffled at a Labour Beano!!

As for an independent Scotland having Aircraft Carriers - there's simply no need. Australia, an island, whose land mass is greater than the 48 contiguous US States...they don't have ANY Aircraft Carriers & they're doing fine.
100

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03/07/2009 11:46:10
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101

Geoff,

sa 03/07/2009 11:52:12
114 JCA Reid-Australia has a different foreign policy and different history from the UK. Also its massive size give it a huge reach for land based aircraft lessening the need to project power from Carriers. As a matter of interest Australia was to have bought HMS Invincible from the RN just before the alklands war.
Lucky she didn't!!!

The vital role of the Aircraft carriers in that campaign says it all!
102

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/07/2009 11:52:22
#14 Sorry Suzanne

"Good work from Murphy"

For what exactly - the Labour Party?

The whole affair, starting with the leaked memo, is a set-up, designed to show Monotone Murphy, out knight in shining armour, riding to the rescue, just before the Glasgow by-election is anounced. Wait for the next phase of the great deception - the future MOD contracts are at risk if the SNP win.

It may fool just enough weegies (combined with the postal votes) to hold Glasgow, but it stores up huge problems for Labour in future.
103

Geoff,

sa 03/07/2009 11:52:46
Falklands war...
104

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/07/2009 11:58:25
How many luxury superliners have been built on the Clyde since 1967? That is the huge market a highly skilled scottish workforce should have been exploiting. Sadly, successive UK governments have failed to support them, whilst other, competing nations fell over themselves to beef up their ship-building industries.

An entire national industry wholly dependant on a few inhouse MOD contracts is very very sad.
105

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 12:03:37
Only a muppet would see this as labour saving the day. The problem Scotland has is that labour has spend the best part of the last 50 years creating and brainwashing muppets into believing keech like this. They ruled through scare mongering and what Murphy has just done is the exact same.

JohnZ at 41 hits the nail on the head, "...Oh and just a wee thing, to those evil liars in Labour who dreamed this wheeze up, consider this; just to deceptively improve your poll ratings, you have put an almost endless list of businesses and workers on the Clyde through the wringer this week.". Nice eh? Stress these people out, threaten to remove their families financial security then dangle it on a stick in front of them telling them 'you had better vote for me!'.
Our fat labour millionaires will lower themselves to any depth to keep theirs and their families snouts at the trough. They are a total and utter disgrace. I can't believe I spent so many years voting for these liars.
106

ukrefusenik,

camelon 03/07/2009 12:07:39
anent the many monikered labour troll , it is sad that they have so few people that will genuinely defend their pathetic record , that they have to deploy such amateur multiples , so transparent you can almost see the turkey jowl wobble behind each one , scottish freedom is such a popular thing when set beside the deadleg british state , that we seem to outnumber them . 100 to 1 (2 ?). its the lack of genuine wit , in what they obviously imagine are hilariously witty handles , that is the final giveaway . he wasnt even the master of baiting , har har har
107

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03/07/2009 12:09:26
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03/07/2009 12:12:56
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Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 12:13:36
124 Today you are talking nonsense.
110

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 12:14:23
125 You're in Primary seven right ?
111

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03/07/2009 12:14:24
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03/07/2009 12:18:53
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notanactivist,

03/07/2009 12:24:00
The government should be getting these yards away from their dependance on MOD contracts. The yards know they will always get the work so don't try to find any commercial work.

Twop things killed shipbuilding on the Clyde: over-militant trade unions and lazy, unimaginative managers. The unions are fortunately long gone but sadly it seems the management culture remains the same.
114

ukrefusenik,

camelon 03/07/2009 12:25:51
when you see a multiple pretending to have a "conversation" with itself , isnt it a bit like the embarrassment of witnessing a mentally ill person pretending to carry on a mobile phone conservation on a train . rufus talks to creature talks to suzanne talks to itself , have you people no self awareness ?common shame ? we are real people with a real political point of view , how stupid do you think this nonsense makes you appear ?
115

,

03/07/2009 12:26:58
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116

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 12:27:50
Rufus stop talking to yourself it's scary.
117

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 03/07/2009 12:29:29
Amazing how Britain cannot afford to run the ships that they have at the moment that so many of them have had to be mothballed.

Funny I was at a Royal Navy presentation at Glasgow Airport a couple of years ago and on speaking to the ex-Captain of HMS Illustrious the navy people like himself don't actually want these carriers, they would rather have a lot more smaller ships.

Fact is Britain is bankrupt, because of Labour, and the Banks because of Labours poor management and encouragement (They are still doing this!). Britain cannot afford to run these anymore never mind build them.

It is time for Scotland to build a new superyard further down th Clyde, with differing sizes of drydocks, as was put forward by John Browns years ago and get back to building all types of ships again instead of waiting on handouts from another country.
118

,

03/07/2009 12:36:25
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,

03/07/2009 12:44:00
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Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 12:50:34
138 You should be so lucky.

Anyway enjoy yourself Rufus with your one=man double act, adios for now.
121

Tartan Bond,

03/07/2009 12:56:22
Freddie and Bruno # 135

Why don't the SNP do something instead of sniping from the sidelines?
Salmond could promise to build the dry docks that you talk about in his putative independent Scotland. Then he could talk about all the ships that he would build there: small ships, big ships, dredgers, liners, container ships, bulk carriers, VLCCs.
Scotland under Salmond would have its own massive Merchant fleet, then Salmond could build a real navy to protect his Merchant Navy.
Has the SNP no imagination, or, is that all they have?
122

,

03/07/2009 13:00:45
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,

03/07/2009 13:03:17
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Scotfree,

Erskine 03/07/2009 14:00:23
Even without the benefit of increased oil prices Scotland is currently, in GDP terms, in third place in the world’s wealth league
Current production of Scotland’s oil is said to be 1.500 million barrels a day at an oil price of 80 dollars, that is, currently, an income of 40 billion per annum. With growing demand from China and India (their reaching even a 6th of US income per person would equate to a doubling of global demand for oil) any global economic recovery is likely to lead to a price in excess of the 125 dollars reached last year (70 billion per annum) so an income in excess of 100 billion with reserves for 30 to 100 years, is quite realistic considering the tradition of underestimating the prices and reserves of Scotland oil exposed by the McCrone report.
It is also well reported that MI5 and its agents in the press, media and Westminster were set up to encourage talk of the oil not being Scotland’s and to consider England’s annexure of the Shetland islands. Given England bankrupt position and its inability to control other colonial outposts (such as Hong Kong etc) the likelihood of there succeeding with any part of Scotland is nil.
It is a sad but telling testament to the so called Union dividend that it mainly consist of weasel type nonentities in the Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties either endlessly doing down Scotland’s prospects, denying and obstructing Scotland’s potential or betraying its interests to England for personal self interest. Fortunately their days are numbered, thanks in large part to the freedom of information the Web provides as a counter to the foreign owned media in Scotland.
125

Darien,

Panama 03/07/2009 14:24:46
Mr Murphy insisted: "There's seven years of work here, and we are looking over the next few weeks to sign an agreement that would guarantee some work for the next 15 years.

Murphy will be history within the next few months, so his "guarantees" are worthless, just like him and all New Labour aparatchniks.

Any Westminster "guarantees" are also useless. Nobody can trust perfidious albion.

Scots naval shipyard workers should consider the rather better opportunities to be derived from the naval requirements of an independent Scotland, which is a nation that will have money to spend, unlike the UKofGB&NI which is well and truly bust.
126

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 03/07/2009 14:29:19
#140 Tartan Bond & other unionist quislings

The fact is as long as Scotland allows England to control all its taxation etc then, no matter what Scottish government is in power in Scotland, it will always be limited in what they can and want to do.

Why do numpties like yourselves not see that is the reason that England does not want to be in the same situation with Europe. Funny England wants a referendum for that very reason.

If it is so good for Scotland then all the taxation and resources should be handed over to Europe and Britain should live on the handouts the same as Scotland.
127

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 14:49:19


I see some Brit Nats are on here yet again stating that Scotland's oil is inconsequential, running out and simply not worth the bother, in fact the Union is likely doing us a favour taking off our hands. I recall similar lies through out the 80's and 90's yet over the last few decades over 250 billion flowed to the Westminster Treasury and was squandered rather than invested in Scotland. No doubt they would like to do the same with at least another 250 billion, but Scots are wiser now and will not permit this theft to continue.

Even the Scotsman reported on the massive potential
here - 9th July 2008.

"£750bn oil reserves remain untapped under North Sea"

"While realising this goal will require massive further investment from the industry, at $100 per barrel it is worth $1.5 trillion to the British economy"

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/750bn-oil-reserves-remain-untapped.4268487.jp

Now of course this 1.5 trillion should flow predominately to the Scottish Economy not the English economy. Naturally with oil being about $70 just now it would only be a trillion rather 1.5 trillion, but let's not quible this is still as massive sum and very significant for the UK population of about 60 million and of course massively beneficial to a country that actually owns the oil like Scotland of only 5 million.

The Brit Nat posturing that our natural resources are insignificant and perpetually running was exposed as lies as long time ago, and it is just sad posturing and/or death throes to continue with such attempts at
deception.

Additionally there is the potential for significant additional reserves on the West of Scotland and around
the Scottish area of Rockall. Scotland needs to secure our own resources for the benefit of our own people rather than letting England annex them as and when it wants.



128

Scotfree,

Erskine 03/07/2009 14:52:21
On 21 August 1998 Alex Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library ref 98/8/56 EP/rij which gave a table showing, that based on Scotland’s GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world’s wealth league, out of 26 countries listed. A recent report now shows Scotland in 3rd place, an improvement due to the decline in the financial sector (affecting Luxembourg’s position as 1st) and Scotland’s exports of oil whisky, timber etc.)
The oil price this time last year was $125 per barrel after which the global economic downturn led to a decline until January this year from which time it has been steadily rising to $70-$80 mainly due to increased demand in India and China whose economies remain in growth. A global recovery would lead to a recovery to last years price and beyond, particularly as demand from China and India will only increase. Of course it should be noted that the only secure supply for Europe is in Scotland and Norway’s waters which would imply any disruption to world supplies would lead to America protecting it’s sphere of influence and the price and value of European sourced oil supplies vastly increasing.
129

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 14:57:58
157 Scotfree,Erskine

Excellent post, do you have some links.
130

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 14:59:58
Cut 'n' paste fest ;

The Royal Norwegian Navy (often abbreviated as RNoN) is the branch of the Norwegian Defence Force responsible for naval operations.

As of 2008, the RNoN consists of approximately 3,700 personnel (9,450 if mobilized, and 32,000 if fully mobilized) and 70 vessels, including 3 heavy frigates, 6 submarines, 6 corvettes, 14 patrol boats, 4 minesweepers, 4 minehunters, 1 mine detection vessel, 4 support vessels and 2 training vessels.

The RNoN also includes the Coast Guard, which has Nine new vessels on order;

Six Nornen class inshore patrol vessels, designed for coast guard duties such as search and rescue, fire fighting, environmental and fisheries protection, customs duties and police duties and three new hybrid diesel-LNG large offshore patrol vessels, Barentshav, Sortland and Bergen .

STX Europe AS, formerly Aker Yards ASA, STX Business Group, is the largest shipbuilding group in Europe and the fourth largest in the world.

With headquarters in Oslo, Norway, STX Europe operates 15 shipyards in Brazil, Finland, France, Norway, Romania and Vietnam. In addition, STX Europe holds a 30 percent ownership share in Wadan Yards, which comprises two yards in Germany and one in Ukraine.

131

mad world,

03/07/2009 15:02:48
It is not Scotlands oil unless you want to ignore international law! Its that simple
132

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 15:13:40
Aye right governments no in that position to offer 15 years of safety. What happens when the Tories get in. Does a change in government no sometimes make these kind of contracts worthless. Cause they things are going at the moment things can only get worse for the Labour party and the English are bound to vote in a Tory government.

David Camaroon has already admitted that he doesnae care what us Scots think with his pro-WoMD staying in the Clyde to pollute oor land and waters.

#4 Brianwci: It pure reeks of it!
133

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 15:16:47
#160 mad world

Well explain it to us then...Monosyllables will do.
134

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 15:18:44
160 mad world

I think you will find that when Scotland's gets independence it will be our Oil or is that something you dispute ? Given the significance of the size of this natural resource it is rather germane to any discussion on independence. Even as part of this Union Scotland is still a country, albeit massively, neutered by England, with her own legal system,
education, religious institutions, a partial Parliament also well neutered,
and indeed massive natural resources in her territory.
You will note that in Scotland it is the Scottish people that are sovereign, Westminster has no sovereignty over our people, our land or our resources.


135

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 15:22:02
#160 mad world: If that's international law, then international law mak no sense and needs to be corrected as it would be corrupt and couldnae be trusted.

The waters that surround oor country belong to oor country no one else, if they belonged to some other country being it neighbouring or else where it would be illogical and it would be plain stuiped to expect that.
136

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 15:23:45
Mad World, 73,

I never said 15 years of work is piecemeal, however the way the YUK gov. mess people about makes you wonder is that the reason there is a story here.

Why threaten closure and then give assurances?

Only a bunch of schizoid numpties would behave like that eh?

Also it would be preferable to be building merchant and pleasure boats to damned warships, but I suppose since that's all that's left you think that's great?

Well, if it wasn't for the warmongers of this world it would be a far better place.

If Scotland was independent of those cretins in Westmonsterland we could sort out OUR priorities but will never be allowed to do so by the warmongering scum in Westmonsterland.

So what is the choice?

Stick with the bams or sort out ALL of OUR country, Scotland, by cutting them out of the equation?

It's a no brainer, as they say, or at least should be for those with any sense.
137

mad world,

03/07/2009 15:26:52
Under international law the oil rights and revenues belong to the sovereign nation, in this case thats the UK. If and when Scotland becomes independent , on that day it becomes Scotlands oil, well approx 90% of it. I really dont want to get into the Shetland debate although Mr Clueness did call for independence last November, and Alex Salmond has already stated that they can go their own way. Has anyone got the figures if this was to happen? And don't panic although i'm a unionist at heart, these days i tend to support independence... but like the vast majority of thinking people on here, I wan't the facts, the truth.. From both sides of the debate.
138

mad world,

03/07/2009 15:30:23
#163
I try to base what would happen on international law.. Or is Scotland planning to pick and choose the laws it likes?
139

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 15:30:36
161 Eve,Scotland

You are spot on. Decisions will be made where power resides and with an at least two term England imposed Tory Government and the relevant HQ's all firmly controlled and run from England it is clear that the power deck has been completely stacked against Scotland.

So how does this stacked deck looked :

. England Dominated British Government 2010-2018 at
least. Actually in reality it is an England
dominated British Government from 1707 until we
free ourselves of it. The Government just
oscillates between different flavours of domination
such as the recent decades where we have had
Thatcher tories imposed on us followed by faux
Socialists who are more Tory than Tories, followed
by more Tories, .... This is not what the Scottish
people have voted for.
. BVT is a joint venture HQ'ed in England and owned
by British Aerospace HQ'ed in England and the
VT Group also HQ'ed England.

More Brit Nat manipulation and skullduggery willing assisted by their North Britain 'Scottish' converts such a Brown. Scotland needs to stand up for herself for the sake of the current and future generations.
140

redcliffe62,

03/07/2009 15:32:17
and the contracts for this are?
and the vessels to be built are?
more verbal waffle from the part time cabinet member who has the media on his side as if he was important. he held a safe seat last time, and even that looks unlikely next time. scare tactics do work on the feeble, the weegie record readers in particular.
mr where's my weekly benefit money (springburn resident) would have no understanding of political nuance unless it was written on a can of beer from oddbins.
141

mad world,

03/07/2009 15:35:14
#168
if it makes you feel any better British aerospace ( currently Bae systems ) has just bought the VT groups ship building side of the business..
142

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 15:37:55
167,

If Scotland was Independent of Westminster we could do just as I said, it's got F all to do with International law as we would not be breaking any.

As you said, an Independent Scotland would, according to international law, own the assets in our territory and not the English bully boys in Westmonsterland.

Britain is English controlled and is simply a way of including Scotland in that. That's why people refer to Britain as ENGLAND and Scotland never gets mentioned in it's own rights any where near as often as it is MISTAKEN for a part of England and that was always the plan anyway. England is English controlled, Scotland is English controlled.

The Union is a total sham.

143

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 15:47:13
Mad World,

What international law allows illegal wars to plunder another country's resources?
144

mad world,

03/07/2009 15:50:49
#171

If Scotland was independent of Westminster.. No argument there then.

The English bullyboys? A little racism coming out there!

Your problem appears to be that the rest of the world doesn't recognize Scotland.. And you blame the English for that too?

On the subject of the Scotstoun yard (YSL)as well, used to be Yarrow.. take a look at where it started.. London.. It was moved to Scotland in 1906 to reduce labour costs.. I take it thats was exploiting the Scots then
145

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 15:53:59
166 mad world

A more than reasonable response. In terms of Shetland if they really wanted independence then yes they should be allowed to have it, but there is no significant Shetland independence movement there at the moment. This is despite latterly best efforts of the British State to try and create a Shetland nationalist movement whilst trying to suppress self-determination in Scotland.

"Plan to hive off Orkney and Shetland"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5729048.ece
"Treasury official even proposed that a local campaign for independence in Orkney and Shetland should be encouraged so that Scotland would be denied access to more than half the North Sea oil."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5728477.ece
."Agents from MI5 and Special Branch
infiltrated th party as part of a
campaign to undermine support for
Scottish independence"
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/secretservices/Files-prove-that-MI5-spied.3327519.jp

If you value democracy and fair play their is another reason for supporting Scottish independence, we certainly don't get it under the current arrangements.

Also another strange coincidence that despite the British Government vehemently denying Scotland an Oil
Fund they did see fit to grant one to Shetland - yet more British skull-duggery at work.

This is what Callaghan had to say about a Scottish Oil
Fund.

"I assure him that we did not dismiss easily the idea of an oil fund. As the SNP knows, it has a superficial political attraction. But when the people of Scotland or of England and Wales come to look at it they will see that it is only a superficial attraction.

We decided that, on balance, it would have been rather deceptive and cosmetic to say that we would establish an oil fund."

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1978/mar/21/north-sea-oil

One rule for this in power and one for the rest of us
in this England controlled Union. T
146

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 15:55:57
173

the racism is Scotland being enslaved by our larger neighbour and our people being denied democracy due to Westminster panhandling.

Most English people I know are brand new but the American and Israeli influenced ENGLISH parliament in London is another story altogether.
147

ukrefusenik,

camelon 03/07/2009 15:58:00
after the disgraceful foreign inspired hounding that happened to b***f*** of camelon , i'm always wary of anyone calling for censorship , however the diseased person posting the scatalogical kak ,needs steering away from the keyboard , i would say leave him where he is , we know what he is , but even fuseniks stomach is starting to turn . it doesnt make you BIG, you know ? the other boys are laughing..... AT you !
148

mad world,

03/07/2009 16:01:28
#172
I'm not doing all the legwork , it's international law. You look it up.

I'm all for a referendum, but I want it based on facts, I'm not interested in anti-English or anti-EU or anti-Scottish jingosim , miss information and i don't want it based on 800 year old or 300 year old history..
I want the facts.. And i want questions answered
The real accounts now, not a 30 year old document based on projections
How much is the oil really worth? Now
How much does the Barnett formula favour Scotland if at all?
What happens with the Scottish banks if we can still call them that?
And a long list of other questions?
And yes I would like to know about Shetlands options, because if Mr Clueness gets support and we get independence in Scotland without Shetland... Then what?
I want the answers! IS that so much to ask?
149

Yeah1,

03/07/2009 16:04:32
#175

"the racism is Scotland being enslaved by our larger neighbour and our people being denied democracy due to Westminster panhandling."

Get a grip on reality. Scotland isn't 'enslaved' - that sort of talk is utterly ridiculous.

Are you comparing Scotland's present circumstances to, for example, the countries under Nazi occupation in the war?

As for claiming Scotland's people are denied democracy - another ridiculous assertion.

Who got the highest vote in Scotland at the last general election - Labour

Which party won the election - Labour

Now how exactly is that democracy being 'denied'?
150

mad world,

03/07/2009 16:04:34
#174
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5120287.ece

Have a look at this?

151

Ugly George,

03/07/2009 16:13:02
174 wolf of badenoch
It really is becoming increasingly tedios and tiresome to have all of these alleged (but never actually carrid out) paranoid, conspiracy theories regurgitated ad nauseam.

Never mind delving into obscure civil service documents and comments from decades ago that were produced by some underemployed civil servant and subsequently ignored, look at the facts and the reality of what has actually happened as opposed to what some people thought might happen.

The Scottish govt's own analysis and figures show that for the last year for which figures were available (2007/08) Scotland had a budget deficit of £3.8bn even if 93.5% of all UK oil/gas revenues were included. This equates to £740 per person in Scotland.

For the same year, the total UK deficit was £39.4bn which equates to £650 per person. In other words, even with 93.5% of all oil/gas revenues the Scottish deficit was proportionately worse than the UK one. Check the comparable figures for the previous years and you will find the same position. These are the official figures as accepted by the current SNP Scottish govt.

So the official figures show that all this hollow rhetoric of Scotland being robbed of oil revenues is total and utter nonsense. There is no other possible rational and objective conclusion which can be obtained from studying what actually happened.
152

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 16:14:57
179 mad world,

Yep, I had seen that before a reasonable article, but still no substantive support. If you check the most recent elections general and european you will find next to no support. Also you will notice that Alex Salmond is also receptive speak an discuss ideas on this and many other items,

"Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said he welcomed Mr Cluness's approach, which would be considered by the government."

This is in stark contrast to Unionist stitch ups like the Calman Commission where independence is even not allowed to be discussed and anybody in favour was excluded from even participating - not very democratic.
153

mad world,

03/07/2009 16:16:42
#180
George

Thank you! This is what I'm looking for! God knows I look on the web but it takes forever to trawl through the dross...!

154

mad world,

03/07/2009 16:22:43
#181
I agree, Independence should be able to be discussed, and a referendum given..
My fear is when we get the referendum it will be decided on a long list of disinformation and lies..
I agree that Alex salmond has shown some respect for Shetland by saying they can decide their own fate.. But is he just being a politician..
Has he ever shown how the books will balance given this possibly unlikely scenario?? Some may call it a long shot, but it is a possibility , so what is the SNPs worse case scenario?
155

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 16:27:37
180 Ugle George,

Thank you Mr George for your as always positive outlook in terms of Scotland's prospects. Given your analysis it would appear that we would be £90 worse of a year to break away from this England controlled Union. I suspect a large number of people including myself would be more that willing to pay that, perhaps even a bit more. I think you should widely market this option to people which is in stark contrast to the gloom and doom of being many 1000's off and Scotland becoming a banana republic after independence.

In terms of Oil & Gas perhaps you could tell us where the vast sum 250 billion 'squandered' already was invested in Scotland. I can certainly see significant investments in the South East and London in particular,
but not a lot in Scotland ? Also perhaps you would care to comment on statement of an expert in the Oil and Gas field, and while you are at it perhaps you could let us know what your professional capacity is here that would allow anybody to take seriously you comments ?

"While realising this goal will require massive further investment from the industry, at $100 per barrel it is worth $1.5 trillion to the British economy"

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/750bn-oil-reserves-remain-untapped.4268487.jp


Good luck with your latest campaign sounds like a winner - "Don't get independence you will be
£90 a year worse off"

It will also be helpful if you could come up with some positive suggestions as to how Scotland could become
£90 a year better off. Glass half full not half empty, positive thinking is good for you. Perhaps scrapping just one imperialistic war toy such as the Trident WMD would help towards this. Given you like crunching figures perhaps you could figure this out for us as to how much Scotland would benefit from not having to pay for WMDs that we totally oppose ?


156

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 16:36:41
#180 Ugly George, you have just claimed that Scotladn woudl have been worse off if it were independent. Please supply the source for those figures you have just claimed fact.
About 3 weeks ago, figures were published that showed Scotland's share of the UK deficit compared to an independent Scotland's share and it showed the advantage would have been with an independent Scotland. How come, just weeks later, you then claim the opposite and provide no sources?

#182, Mad world: surely you are smart enough to research your own facts from trusted sources? Anyone who would dare make a claim like this would post their sources. Don't be hoodwinked. This is the internet. There are all sorts out there...
157

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 16:37:21
Even as a Unionist the economic arguement against Scotland becoming Independent really winds me up. If Denmark and Belgium can survive then I am sure that Scotland with all her natural resources would do fine. The decision will not be made on economic but rather emotional grounds I feel. Having worked throughout the UK I do feel british I have far more in common with people from Edinburgh, London and Cardiff than I have with people from Islay, Newlyn and Pembroke. Britain is surely split far more along demographic lines than borders that have not exsisted for 300 years.
158

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 16:43:40
183 mad world

"so what is the SNPs worse case scenario?"

It looks like Ugly George provides a worst case for
you - £90 a year worse off. Of course if you look at the glass half full rather than half empty then much more is possible. Scotland has significant additional natural resources in terms of Wind, Tidal, Hydro, and Coal which can be used to grow the economy with the HQ's an economic impact concentrated in Scotland rather than England such as was done with the likes of BP. Other areas such as diversifying our shipbuilding from an all eggs in the one war toy basket makes basic business sense and then there is the potential to create major new industries to benefit Scotland e.g. In recent years Dundee has become a major world hub for software gaming and bio-chemistry.

Given control it is up to the Scottish people to shape our economy and also decide
on our priorities. Is Scotland's 'forced'
'investments' of billions in
white elephants like Trident WMDs,
The London Olympics, Wars etc in the best interests of the Scottish people. In my opinion definitely not which gives rise to where else could these monies could be invested for the
betterment of the Scottish nation.
The basic thing here is choice and the Scottish people need the choice, and incidentally the confidence,
to run their country as they see fit for the benefit
of the Scottish people as a top priority.

So starting from a Brit Nat a scenario of being £90 a year worse off after independence and taking this as true, which it of course may not be, then how can you improve on that. How much do we benefit from not investing in British White Elephants and instead areas that will benefit and grow our country ? What other new industries can be grown and nurture e.g. carbon storage, Carbon Capture industry, renewable energy power which even Brown had previously stated could rival the massive economic boost of North Sea Oil.

159

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 03/07/2009 16:45:59
#180 Ugly George

Considering all this guff re the Scottish budget is all based on guestimates we will never know the true situation until both countries gain independence.

Britain is bankrupt, the entire economy was based on debt, who got the country into this state and why would a country in ths state, such as England, want to keep on subsidising its neighbour to the detriment of its own people?

Why does England want a referendum on Europe so that it does not get into the same position as Scotland is within the UK.
160

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 16:49:03
178 yeah 1,

"Scotland isn't enslaved"

Really?

Well what about the 18 years of Tory rule that WE did NOT vote for? Is that democracy?

Oil in Scottish waters being taken to be utilised for the benefit of the London plutocracy while deprivation in Scotland is among the worst in Europe.

Our Parliament being undermined constantly by Westminster and their Labour lackeys in Scotland.

It is simply co-incidence that Scotland voted Labour at the last general election and we ended up with a completely useless warmongering Labour government more interested in American and Israeli issues than Scottish ones. If England had voted otherwise that is what we would have been stuck with, also at the more recent SCOTTISH Elections the Scottish people voted SNP and yet the London Labour Mob continually pick fights, interfere and indeed resurrected the role of Murphy to antagonise and hinder US.

If it is not slavery it is as close to slavery as you can get.

Time to tell them where to get off, methinks.
161

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 16:50:48
#168 Wolf of Badenoch: Sorry you've lost me I'm so distracted by the fact that you have 13 lines in yer comment which shorter and block together. I must have wee bit of ADD the day.

Though it's pretty inevitable that the Tories will be elected at the next election and the trends do show that the Labour party take awhile to recover from defeats BUT then again the they use to be two different parties BUT now the only really difference is the names and level of confidences within.

i.e. David Cameron clearly has a lot of confidence in himself and his party where as Gorden Brown has backstabbers and sleepless nights. Which makes the Tories more electable.
162

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 16:53:19
#189

"Enslaved" surely that would be against somebodies will. we live in a democracy the fact that there has NEVER been a majority in favour of Independence does not make us slaves.
163

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 16:57:02
180 Ugly George.

Your figures are based on Scotland suffering terrible disadvantages BECAUSE of the one-sided, so called union.

Only because successive English Governments have slaughtered Scottish manufacturing to preserve theirs is this the case.

If it is a union why is most of the wealth per head in London and surrounding areas while Scotland suffers terrible deprivation because of CORRUPTION in the Scottish branch of the Labour Party.
164

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 16:59:01
191 I don't agree that we are slaves, but the people who live in Scotland do not determine the shape of the Government who rule them on important issues like the economy, defence, and foreign policy. We are numerically inferior to the other larger partner in the Union.

That may be all very well if there is broad agreement between the different nations who comprise the UK. But that is no longer, if it was ever, the case.

When the majority of England can determine that the majority of Scotland will be governed by a Party that they did not vote for, you have a democratioc deficit which in reality devolution has only partly assuaged.

That is not an anti- English comment, I am only stating the obvious; that there are rather more of them than there are of us.

165

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 17:00:04
190 Eve,Scotland

Sorry about that, it looked ok when I posted it, but does look a little confusing now. The basic point is that the centre of power will make the final decisions and in he instance of shipbuilding all of the power is with Westminster and the companies involved which are all headquartered in England. The deck is being stacked against us and the result inevitable until such time as we leave this game table.
166

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:00:24
#173 mad world: Who blames the English? The ordinary English person does and say nothing to offend me or any other Scot.

Most of us blame the Westminster Administration/ Whitehall for imposing a foreign identity on us. Things wouldnae be so bad if they allowed us to have Scottish written beside the word nationality.

Anyway I've been to the other side of the world and they new about Scotland and the Scots. Allow occasionally some of them got their accents a bit muddle up and thought we were Irish.
167

Yeah1,

03/07/2009 17:01:53
#189

"Well what about the 18 years of Tory rule that WE did NOT vote for? Is that democracy?"

Most of Northern England didn't vote for the tories either - are they 'enslaved' too?
168

Yeah1,

03/07/2009 17:04:49
#189

"If it is not slavery it is as close to slavery as you can get."

Claiming that Scotland is 'enslaved' or its people are even 'close to slavery' is an disgusting insult to the many thousands of people through history who really were slaves.

If you think you are a 'slave' now perhaps you should go back in time to the 19th Century and work as a black slave in America - thats real slavery.
169

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 17:04:59
Mad World,
"North Sea oil revenue would ‘see Scotland in the black’"The Herald, June 19 2009
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2515217.0.North_Sea_oil_revenue_would_see_Scotland_in_the_black.php

"Scotland revealed as £3.8bn in deficit despite oil prices" The Hootsmon, June 19 2009
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Scotland-revealed-as-38bn-in.5381776.jp

Same detials, different headline. Go get the figures yourself.
The key thing here is that the GERS figures are ESTIMATED for Scotland. Now, do you believe those that told us in the 70s that the oil was running out? Yet here we are, after beign subject to 30 years of plunder, with at least another 50 years still remaining... If Scotland is such a busted flush, why do the Westminster parties put so much effort into telling us not to leave them? Whilst at the same time (according to them) send us billions in subsisdies every year? It doesn't make any sense for a country who's debt has never been greater and is rising faster than it can manage.
170

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:08:02
#194 Wolf of Badenoch: Aye I've got it now! Thanks.
I kind of expected that to be the case.
171

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 17:08:36
''Most of Northern England didn't vote for the tories either - are they 'enslaved' too? ''

The North of England have always got a raw deal but they are part of the same country - they didn't make a Union that is only 300 years old.

With all due respect to the North of England they are not in the same position as the Scots, who are not enslaved, I agree with you on that.

Scottish independence may be the spur that the areas of England who are routinely discriminated against in favour of the SE need to get off their butts and do something about it. But that is their business.
172

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 17:09:22
Unionist #180 (your names have lost all meaning)

The Industries that operate in Scotland and Englandandwwales and the tax regime that they operate under are integrated.

Not all Government spending is "identifiable" and no attempt at tracking the ultimate beneficiaries is made.

There are no barriers to trade or movement within the two entities and no records available that could be used to compile an accurate record of cross border trade.

The "official" figures that you quote are crude guesstimates.

What conceivable reason can there be for producing them in the first instance( even the more realistic post SNP version)?

I can think of only one, which of course discredits them completely.

Can you think of another?

Vis Scotland's exit from the Union...There are to many variables for any extrapolation of anything of meaning, even from accurate to the penny pre Independence figures.
173

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 17:10:37
196 Yeah1,

"Most of Northern England didn't vote for the tories either - are they 'enslaved' too? "

Whilst enslaved is a tad too strong and emotive I would suspect they are none to happy about it. However don't you see a little bit of a difference between a Country like Scotland and an English Region ?
174

DialMforMurdoX,

03/07/2009 17:12:32
#191

"the fact that there has NEVER been a majority in favour of Independence does not make us slaves."

I suspect there was a sizeable majority in favour of Independence in 1707, pity we didn't have democracy then...
175

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:15:22
#189 Fitba Krazy: "Our Parliament being undermined constantly by Westminster and their Labour lackeys in Scotland."

I wonder if the same is said and done with the Wales and Northern Ireland equivalents. I don't hear about, maybe I should have a wee read at their paper to see if they are.
176

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 17:16:18
191 All Politicians are the Same.

And when was there a vote on Scottish Independence?

You are simply making assumptions.

When the Union was FORCED on Scotland the people of Scotland did NOT want it.

The fact that Scotland has many numpties who are scared by PROPAGANDA and scaremongering is the reason why people like myself feel enslaved.

Why does the English Gov. see fit to produce scaremongering?

Is it to hold onto control of Scottish assets?

Of course it is, and what about the constant lies about the oil etc? Why do they do that?

To scare people into sticking with London control to enable the continuation of using Scottish assets for the benefit of S.E. England.

Are the North of England enslaved too? you ask.

Perhaps. You would have to ask them. Scotland has no say in the North of England but the English Gov. has plenty of say in the North of Scotland, surprise, surprise.

I believe this to be typically inequitable in favour of England, as usual. Are you denying that?
177

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:16:36
they didn't make a Union that is only 300 years old. Older than Germany(the original one) Holland, Belgium and Italy.
178

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 17:17:50
203 Of course the sizeable majority were opposed to the Union at the time, that is why you had riots and disturbances in every major centre of population.

But that was then, and this is now, I don't think it's realistic to call us slaves although I understand the thoughts that lie behind that.
179

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 17:19:02
206 302 years old then - and a shotgun wedding.

But that was then and this is now.
180

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:22:09
And when was there a vote on Scottish Independence?
You are simply making assumptions.

If there was a majority, especially an overwhelming majority do you not think they would have made themselves heard. They have had hundreds of chances to vote in a massive Natinalist majority and they haven't. Montenegro and Kosovo managed to gain Independnence in the most adverse circumstances because they WANTED it. So don't moan from your priviliged DEMOCRACY because you cannot persuade a majority of your felllow countrymen who have had very opportunity to make their feelings clear.
181

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 17:30:31
209 Err actually no, Kosovo didn't''gain independence in adverse circimstances'' but let's not go there.

We are NOT Kosovo.
182

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 17:30:49
There is a difference between the Scottish people being enslaved and Scotland the Country being enslaved, but not a lot.

Why should Scots have to leave their Country because they are impoverished or ashamed to live in an enslaved Country?

What about those that got bonked over the head and woke up halfway to the Caribbean or wherever?

see http://www.geocities.com/sconemac/slavery.html
183

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:32:24
#209 All Politicians are the same: No we haven't.
Some people are fickle or scared of repercussions form the likes of MI5 if they become to vocal about the cause.

You also seem to have cut yer self off from the fact that in the olden days the Labour party were pro-Scottish independence.

And before that the average man/ woman where no allowed o vote, their employers voted for their employees.

It was also at one point illegal to ware kilts, play bagpipes, speak Gaelic etc. never mind support Scottish Independence.
184

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 17:37:14
209 All Politicians are the Same

"They have had hundreds of chances to vote in a massive Nationalist majority and they haven't."

Perhaps the likes of tanks in George Square to suppress the Scottish workers had something to do with it eh?

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly025.htm
185

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:37:37
I did not say that you were Kosovo but I am fed up with people moaning about being enslaved when we have every opportunity to gain Independnece if we want it.

No the Kosovans went through quite a lot on their road to Indpenddence actually.
186

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:38:19
213. Hagbard/ SmeeAm2

great post! But is there not a danger, as well as being utterly pointless, that it confirms our unionist obsession with second monikers/ second homes?
187

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 17:38:35
Hagard Celine,

IN DENIAL per chance?

Yeah Yeah Yeah.
188

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:39:11
215. Great post

Makes one wonder why we Unionists oppose a simple, free and democratic referendum on independence?
189

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:41:04
I confidently predict that if Scotland becomes independent that its steel industry will be destroyed, its fishing industry decimated, and corporate HQs such as those of Britoil, British Gas and Distillers will move south!
190

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:43:46
#214 what do you call the elections that we reguarly have then?

#212 The repurcussions from MI5? Yes please put that tin foil hat back on they are listening to you.

Countries that genuinely want Independnece have always got it.
191

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:46:37
220. Great post

re "#212 The repurcussions from MI5? Yes please put that tin foil hat back on they are listening to you"

probably some dribbling nonsense about UK government special advisers setting up websites to spread totally fictitious stories about oppoition politicians having VD and mental wives.

No one would stoop so low or fantastic!
192

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:47:02
#218

I do not oppose a referendum.
193

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:50:24
222. Great post

Makes one wonder why we Unionists do given that we favour self determination and choice?

194

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:52:41
Unionists - we favour self determination and choice as long as no one ever gets to vote on anything we don't want!

Avanti the Union!
195

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:54:18
#223

You see the thing is that i am completely capable of blanking your sarcasm out and you will get bored before I do because at least I am posting my opinions and not attempting to be smart whilst hiding behind my moniker.
196

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:56:10
225 "you will get bored before I do "

Yes, I can think everyone who reads your posts sees our new tactic, great stuff!

Now, getting back to why Unionist parties oppose a free, simple referendum on Independence? Is it because we favour democracy, or is it because we know best!
197

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 17:56:13
#220 All Politicians are the same: Thank you so much for the vote of confidence. Indeed some day we'll get to vote and we'll vote yes cause the Tories are never ever going to be oor friends.

There is after all still time left to do so, unless the worlds about to end. ;)

Besides we've had 302years the Irish had 700years. I doughty that we will be any where as near unlucky as them to be kept in this union any where as long as that. I give it 10-15year tops that is left of the union.

Though my heart say it should end within the next few years. I still want to be relatively young when it happen.

"tin foil hat" No thanks it might mess up my hair and sounds like a waste of tinfoil. Where you wearing on one about 4hrs ago the day by any chance?
198

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:57:35
225. PS - "not attempting to be smart whilst hiding behind my moniker"

How lucky your given name is "All" and your family name "Same" otherwise you would indeed look like a posturing cove who does indeed hide behind a moniker!

Onward the Union!
199

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 17:58:57
All Politicians are the same,

What about the tanks in Geo. Sq?

The elections we have coincide with almost total media propaganda decrying Scottish Independence. Why?

Because most of the media including the BBC are ANTI-SCOTTISH.

Many silly people unfortunately believe the constant scare stories put out by FOREIGN controlled media.

Why are they anti-Scottish?

Because they are believers in London control as they do fine out of it as it is, so they sell the people of Scotland down the river to continue lining their own pockets while the people suffer some of the worst deprivation on the continent.

Is that how it should be? Keeping corrupt, greedy, cretinous, ugly horrors wealthy at the expense of the Scottish People.
200

English Voice,

03/07/2009 17:59:47
225 - PPS ""not attempting to be smart"

really better if you made an effort old bean. While your oafish opposition/ support for Unionists who oppose a referendum is obtuse and hypocritical, it doesn't help our PR effort!
201

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:06:30
Eve 204,

"I wonder if the same is said and done with the Wales and Northern Ireland equivalents. I don't hear about, maybe I should have a wee read at their paper to see if they are."

They probably want Wales to stay in the Union. I am not so sure about N. Ireland.

It is up to the people of Wales and Northern Ireland to decide what they want.
202

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:09:44
231. Great post!

One wonders why, if the case is closed, you and other of our blessed Unionist cyber cohort devote every day to posting on here and personal blogs, arguing the point?

I do hope no one can think back to 2007 when we told the Scotchlanders that a £5000 tax bill per family to pay for our hypothetical deficit of an indenpendent Scotchland would be crippling. Otherwise they may wonder how on earth our Unionist tax bill of £50,000 per PERSON to pay for our UK actual deficit is survivable?

Some might think our Unionist economics are just made up, but we know better! A Scottish deficit of £3 billion would of course lead to Zimbabwe style deprivation, as we said in 2007, while a UK deficit of £250 billion is grand.

Others may wonder why we have maintained the economic doom scenario, even when under our own figures Scotland was in massive surplus? Surplus and deficit by our own calculation methods, we keep saying deficit.

Onwards dependency and begging bowl, be grateful for what we give you, mentality!! Onwards the Union"
203

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 18:10:54
#219 English Voice

Good grief man...that is unthinkable!

We must preserve the Union at all costs.

If Scotland becomes independent, the motor vehicle factories at Linwood and Bathgate will be No More... quicker than it takes the ink to dry on the Proclamation!
204

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:12:51
231. Hagbard says "There was a surplus in the mid-80s."

Odd then that we Unionists said throughout the 80s, mid included, there was a deficit.

Why did we do that?

Anyway, good thing that the horrid £5000 SNP tax bill per family has not come to pass via a £bn deficit. Much better we have a £250bn deficit in the UK (or a deficit 9 times higher per head than we said would lead to ruin, despair and a lack of hair conditioner)
205

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 18:14:02
#232 Fitba Krazy: True and I'm no about to dictate to them either. I was just wondering if they faced the same problems and discretions as us.

Just can't Imogen them having a Jim Murphy carrotier talking down to their people in a mono-tonne voice.
206

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:15:28
235. Well, Col, you are a rose-tinted-spec type of man, I can see. I go further and say that if Scotland was independent, the Invergordon smelt mill will be gone, the Scottish regiments will be disbanded, the Paisley and Loudoun valley textile factories will be gone and Singer will leave the Clyde.

207

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:18:07
235. Col

I even believe, if the calamity of independence occurred, the American Naval base at Dunoon would close (so affronted would they be) and Ravenscraig would no longer enjoy UK government support, thus crippling Lanarkshire!
208

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:19:07
231 Hagbard Celine

"BTW, anyone thinking renewables can ever come close to replacing oil in revenue terms is deluded and innumerate."

Absolute nonsense. Oil is finite renewables are not.

Unless you want to hang around for several million years or so until the oil returns through the metamorphosizing of compressed vegetation.

Renewables HAVE to be exploited or it's back to the stone/bronze/iron age.

That might happen anyway with the nuclear genie well out the bottle.
209

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:20:53
231. Hagbard "BTW, anyone thinking renewables can ever come close to replacing oil in revenue terms is deluded and innumerate."

Spot on.

Just like those lunatic types who said in 1971-1976 that North Seal oil would any contribute any significant revenues!

210

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:24:05
233 Hagbard Celine.

What a clown you really are.

It was about Scottish workers rights.

The workers wanted to work less than 57 hours per week and the ENGLISH gov. sent in the tanks.

They also kept Scottish soldiers away from the scene and mobilized English ones instead. Why?

Obviously this was because they thought the Scottish Soldiers would side with the Scottish workers.

Some union eh?

A total SHAM and always has been.
211

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:24:42
242. Great post!

Of course, the 1983 and 1987 Labour and Conserative campaigns, manifestos and public statements conceded that an independent Scotland would be in massive surplus!

In fact, Hansard confirms no statement to the contrary!

Odd, is it not, when you post that our GERs calculations actually put Scotland in massive surplus in the 80s, that no Unionist agreed?

Onward the Union! Onward Orwellian new-speak!
212

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:25:33
233 Haggard Celine

WTF is Judith, Judas.

213

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:26:11

242. Hagbard "BTW I know who you are."

So do I. is this an unusual state for you?

214

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:30:05
235 The Col of Monte Cristo,

"If Scotland becomes independent, the motor vehicle factories at Linwood and Bathgate will be No More... quicker than it takes the ink to dry on the Proclamation!"

Aye, and the BoS will not survive either unless it moves in with an English one.
215

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:32:46
248. Hagbard

odd that you stated above that Scotland was in massive surplus according to GERs in the mid 80s, but more odd that all Unionist parties stated the opposite.

Avanti the Union!
216

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 18:33:19
#233 Hagbard Celine

The Soviet Consul in Glasgow at the time, was of the opinion that the Demise of the Imperialist and anti-worker United Kingdom's Ruling Class; would be best served by Workers in Scotland abandoning the Union and all it's attendant anti-worker baggage, including the pro-war Labour Party.

http://www.marxists.org/italiano/enciclopedia/m.htm#p2
217

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:34:55
237 Eve

It may well be worse in Wales and/or Northern Ireland.

I got the train down to Wales last year and whilst Preston station was modern and immaculate Bangor station was the opposite.

I thought there and then, how typical is this?
218

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:38:11
248. The McCrone reports states:

"The SNP countered these figures by claiming that North Sea oil should by 1980 be yielding a Government revenue of approximately £800m. and have charged the Government with giving Scottish oil away to the international companies ridiculously cheap. Up to now much of the Scottish public may have regarded the SNP figures as pretty wild and they have been publicly condemned as such by Ministers"

So a UK government civil servant, in an official UK government report from 1974, says that SNP claims of £800 million revenues by 1980, were rubbished as wild by UK government ministers.

219

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:41:10
248. Hagbard says no Unionist tried to under-estimate oil revenues - but claims of an £800 million revenue by 1980 from the SNP were rubbished by Unionist parties, and Uk ministers.... even thought the official prediction was more than 4 times higher

"As well as the gain to the Government Revenue, North Sea oil will of course make a massive contribution to the balance of payments; indeed these two aspects are closely linked. At present world prices the expected output of 100m. tons of oil in 1980 is worth approximately £3,000m" - McCrone report, 1984. Same report which observes

"The SNP countered these figures by claiming that North Sea oil should by 1980 be yielding a Government revenue of approximately £800m. and have charged the Government with giving Scottish oil away to the international companies ridiculously cheap. Up to now much of the Scottish public may have regarded the SNP figures as pretty wild and they have been publicly condemned as such by Ministers"
220

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 18:42:52
Hagbard Celine 242

""We" didn't. As with many other things that Nats (even those calling themselves things like "English Voice") claimed were said in the 80s, 70s or whatever, they exist only in their paranoid deluded minds."

Yet another load of absolute codswallop

http://tinyurl.com/3snn2h
221

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:43:51
248. Come now, Hagbard, explain why the UK government ministers rubbished SNP claims of £800 million revenues by 1980 as "wild" while the UK civil service predicted revenues of £3 billion?

222

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:48:08
248. Ah, Hagbard is off to sell his 4th second home this year and equipping himself with a taxpayer expensed duck island, while paying an adviser to spread rumours of VD, true Unionist style!

We won't hear back from Hagbard why Unionists in the mid 80s said Scotland would be in deficit in the mid 80s while he now says it was in surplus, or why Unionists chose to ignore civil service predictions to rubbish claims of oil revenues actually 4 times lower than predicted.

avanti the union!
223

Eve,

Scotland 03/07/2009 18:54:12
#251 Fitba Krazy: I've never been to Wales or Northern Ireland. So I don't know. I'm in no hurry to go and vist the latter for the reason that a large proportion of the people I've met from there have taken an instant dislike to me before I've even said a word.

It's pure weird! They come to Scotland and then they decide they don't like the look of some of us. It really puts me off visiting and I've heard some lovely things about scenery there.
224

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:54:28
Well, well, old Hagbard at 248 guffawed at the notion any upstanding Unionist down-played oil revenues during 1971-76

Odd that a UK government civil service report from 1974 observes UK government ministers rubbishing oil revenue predictions 4 times lower than they were advised were probable.

Next thing you know the UK government will be paying people to set up websites dedicated to inventing rumours of VD in their opponents!
225

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 18:56:47
It is quite interesting that there are so many Brit Nat deniers of Scotland's oil wealth both in the past and in the future. They appear to not seen anyway it could have used in the past more effectively for Scotland nor in the future. A few simple questions for them :

. Was the massive 250 billion that was taken the last several decades invested remotely optimally for Scotland ? Evidence would appear to be it was squandered.

. Why should we let Scotland's future billions in terms of Oil & Gas revenue be squandered by our benevolent British guardian or there is some change in plan where the squandering of the last 30 years will not be repeated ? All evidence appears to point to more squandering on wastes like Trident WMD, wars, London Olympics.

. How much economic impact is still possible from the the remaining reserves ? According to one expert in the field this could still be upward of a trillion $ "at $100 per barrel it is worth $1.5 trillion to the British economy"

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/750bn-oil-reserves-remain-untapped.4268487.jp


Now I don't appear to recall in 1980's and 1990's
or indeed now the Scottish media putting massively bullish stories about all of the potential of Scotland's massive Oil & Gas revenues and how they could be used to Scotland's benefit and there was no question that the vast majority of the revenues would go to an independent Scotland. Then again perhaps they did not need to actually have a free media reporting stories of critical impact to London as they could just pop down to London and get a paper copy of the Hansard debates in Westminster - I wonder just how many people did that as opposed dependent on the mass media such as the BBC and the Scottish newspapers ?
226

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 18:57:12
Smee will be away to update his blog with more of his nationalist myth busting.

But even David Maddox no less has disputed his version of events - now that is quite an achievement.
227

,

03/07/2009 18:57:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
228

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:57:46
259. its OK. hagbard has slinked off, humiliated, to set up a web-blog called "bustingmyownmyths.com"

229

English Voice,

03/07/2009 18:58:12
261. And laws of car crushing
230

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 19:04:01
BTW talking of unionists Grahamski has claimed that Labour are about to launch their own referendum in May. He seems to have vanished now as well.
231

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:04:21
Hi Andy
232

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:05:08
Hi Rufus
233

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 19:05:52
257 Eve,

That was the only time I have been to Wales and I have also never been to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland like the rest of Ireland does apparently have many natural scenes of astounding beauty that I would like to see, maybe one day I'll make it over to see some of them.

I suppose it's just your luck who you meet, the Irish I've met in my time here in Scotland have been brand new.

234

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:06:50
Genetic imperfection is a trouble. Often the parents wonder, quite rightly, if their own neglect, and frank lazy complacency, contributed to the suffering of their off-sring
235

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:07:38
Well, well, fakies abound.

But the humiliating 248 and subsequent stand.
236

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:11:00
263. Do you find this alleviates your guilt for inlficting your vile, polluted genetic tainted seed on innocents, or for getting gubbed in discussion?
237

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:12:44
Oh sunshine on malta, the impotent bitterness. If anyone could harness it (with gloves and a mask, no one wants to get near the source of the generational taint)
238

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:13:50
268. God, I hope my offspring are unaffected by proximal posting to the tainted, dog-like genetics. I shall wash before I do anything else.

He he
239

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 19:14:50
267 the only thing you'd be good at is falling under a bus.


Bye loser.
240

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 19:17:53
#266 English Voice,

Gordon Brown is paying people who are wealthy enough to be able to aford a New Car...£1000 of our money.

To crush their old car...Is this Car crushing malarkey some kind of Unionist rite of passage?

All the same...I bet he is miffed that he jumped the gun.
241

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:19:18
275. Col

LOL. We unionists are all about car crushing.

242

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:21:32
I am glad that the Scottish blight Murray is out Wimbledon, the saltires and ginger, dependency junkies were tainting the whole thing. Should be kept to Brits
243

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 19:23:35
Hey SS

Yelow Poo was my Idea...I used it at #9.

Coppycat!
244

Lee John,

03/07/2009 19:26:50
This site is all over the place.
Got to this article late.
Can't follow links to posts as the numbers are out.
Can't be bothered.
Bring back the Herald comments.
245

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:26:55
266. Well quite!

Those of us so bitter, deranged and guilty from crippling our offspring with our nasty genes (product of us smoking and no exercise or vegetables on our part) like to repeat ourselves.

And crush cars or oppose housing, or buy plasma things.

Benign to the knowledge that people who dont live on DLA are just laughing at us/
246

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:27:30
267 - see 269

anti-oxidants?
247

English Voice,

03/07/2009 19:28:18
267. Sunshine on maltese dornoch, begone
248

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 19:28:29
#265 English Voice

marvellous news...you couldn't bag a brace of strawberries for less than a tenner, because of all those wealthy Scotch gits gazupming us natives.
249

Lee John,

03/07/2009 19:28:46
The nat-mythbusting blogspot is run by a naysayer. He's probably a Brit Nat, moron or Labour MSP.
Then again, same thing really.
250

Lee John,

03/07/2009 19:30:32
What has car-crushing to do with this? I don't think I'm in on this. Is it a long running gag?
251

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 19:31:05
273 Nah - he's a Tory. So that's Brit Nat and Moron done but he's to the left of New Labour.
252

Lee John,

03/07/2009 19:37:19
276

Obviously it's his full time job. No-one can spend this amount of time on newspaper forums (I hate the word fora) unless he's being paid. Admittedly a pensioner would have the time, or someone unemployed. Maybe if he ran his own business that could also explain how he has the time, but I doubt it.

I'm going for an MSP or MP on holiday, or a paid lackey. I'll go for a paid lackey. Some saddo who believes the pap is masters tell him.

It's actually quite sad.
253

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 19:40:13
# 267 Hagbard Celine,

I reread the maiden speech Harry Ewing "Lord Ewing of Kirkford".

It contained much that was of great value. He had a hugely successful career and is still regarded locally in Falkirk, Grangemouth and Stirlingshire as a man who interpreted the political landscape with great intelligence and had a fine political career.

In his maiden speech — he said :

"Falkirk is, always has been and always will be an iron town".

In fact, within about five years of Labour Goverment, pretty much all of the iron foundries that polluted and poisoned the place had closed.

He also said " In world terms, the North Sea is little more than an Oil Slick...It will be cleaned out in 10/15 years.

It's in Hansard...look it up!

254

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 19:40:43
281 Paid lackey ? No I'd just go for lackey at the moment, with ambitions to be a paid one.
255

Lee John,

03/07/2009 19:46:52
This happened a few days back. An idiot replies with the coprophiliac nonsense. Seek help son.
256

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 19:50:31
#281 Lee John,

One of his predecessor monikers claimed - "to have a business that pretty much runs it's self", when asked that same question.
257

,

03/07/2009 19:52:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
258

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 19:56:53
281 Smee I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the argument for independence is a stand-alone one. The oil doesn't actually come into it, other than as a sidebar, and an illustration of why we can't trust Westminster.



259

English Voice,

03/07/2009 20:00:56
Gosh. I am still empathising with those who passed on their vile, polluted seed and thus sentenced inonocents to a shorter life tme of agony.

How do you reconcile it?with poo posts

what a total failure

at genetic, evil seed level, and at response

happy sunny malta
260

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 20:05:58
#281 sm753, - "Well that's a good thing, then. Especially since they were doubtless producing stuff at a cost which was a multiple of the market price, surviving only on subsidy"

Or in the words of your sidekick...Let them eat Yellow Poo.
261

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 20:10:23
Who was it that cautioned us against eating "curried poo?

What ever became of him.
262

English Voice,

03/07/2009 20:12:01
288. Polluted
263

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 20:33:51
AN AGREEMENT to be signed within weeks will help ensure defence work for the Clyde for the next 15 years, Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy has claimed.

"will help ensure" sounds a bit like was nearly pregnant.

Will ensure means something tangible.

Will help ensure means the opposite potentially!

Considering there is a by election in Glasgow soon,which Labour dare not lose, but they will certainly have a serious dent in their majority at least,the real question is how many of the North East seat realise that Cameron is headed for no 10 and to return Labour under those circumstances would just destroy the lead shown to Scotland by neighbouring Glasgow East,only to see Glenrothes reinforce its claim to be Glenumpty.
I doubt that Glasgow will be so easily conned!
264

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 20:35:26
183 Not yet! She will .
265

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 20:38:09
291 Never mind Smee, did you spot Grahamski announcing that Labour would be announcing a referendum on independence to be held at the same time as the next General Election, at their soon to be held Conference ? Although of course he has pipped them to the post by announcing it on the Straw thread here instead.

266

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 20:46:36
281sm753, 03/07/2009 19:49:23

Have the Mods forgiven your previous bad comments and allowed your old moniker back?

I never liked the Hag-bird Celine Dion moniker.
267

English Voice,

03/07/2009 20:59:06
ooh er, polluted
268

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:00:10
208

Scotlands steel industry was destroyed when the UK cut back their steel production by 10% as instructed by the EU. Of course closure of Ravenscraig meant reducing Scotlands capacity by 100%.
That is how the UK met the 10% Target. It caused Alan Lawson to quit the Tory Party (when he was almnost certainly going to be their leader in Scotland and potentially Scottish Secretary)and join the SNP.

I doubt we have much to fear since we no longer have a STEEL INDUSTRY!

Scotlands fishing industry couldnt be decimated since the fish in Scottish territorial waters will either be caught or thrive !Are you suggesting that English fish wont cross the border?

When did British Gas have corporate headquarters located in Scotland?
Granton House in Edinburgh was a British Gas(Scotland) HQ and administered all things Gas in Scotland and half of the jobs located there went south apoprox 10 years ago.
I remember it in some detail because I was a UNISON shop steward just prior to this.

Revenues from oil, will accrue to the Scottish government irrespective of which oil company owns the oil.

Whisky distillers need the peat water in Scotland to maintain the taste of Scotch Whisky. Also the term WHISKY can ONLY be used in reference to a distilled in Scotland product. No Whisky distillery is going to remove the right to market its product as Scotch.


You are off your trolley !
269

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:02:31
297
I should correct my own mistake !

Alan Lawson shoud read Ian Lawson of course. (whats worse is I know Ian and Celia Lawson )
I did know an Alan Lawson also however !
270

Ugly George,

03/07/2009 21:08:02
248 Wolf of badenoch
Are you deliberately ignoring the point. You complained that oil rvenues have not been invested in Scotland yet you accept the SNP govt's own analysis that shows that these revenues do not even cover the expenditure in Scotland.

How could the have been invested if they have already been spent on other services in Scotland? Your argument is contrary to any rational analysis.
271

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 21:20:00
297 Morris,

English Voice is sardonically pointing out that the unionist scare stories suggesting the demise of Scottish industrial assets have actually already happened under unionist control.
272

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 21:22:02
299 Is that what you read out of that post ? What I read was that the oil wealth has been largely squandered (thanks Thatcher we REALLY do owe you one) and will no doubt keep on being squandered in the future. I think it's safe to say that looking at the past thirty years. I don't think the poster was implying that everyone in Scotland was going to live a life of leisure paid for by Scotland's oil, we will presumably still have an economy, so oil revenues don't need to equal expenditure. But the oil revenues could be put to much better use by us than these clowns in Westminster, who have a track record of being bloody woeful.

That's what I read into it.
273

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:29:26
301 Observer
The point is that (according to the SNP govt's own figures) the oil revenues plus all tax revenues raised in Scotland do not cover public expenditure in Scotland. Their own analysis demonstrates this clearly.

So if you are saying that the oil revenues could be put to better use you would have to say what current spending in Scotland would have to be cut so that this could happen.
274

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:33:50
300 If you say so !

I understand what you have said okay.
Im still scratching my head over what he said and why!
275

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 21:36:02
#299 Ugly George,

My view is that the way in which the UK government has spend money both north and south of the border has been a disaster for every area of the UK except the South East of England.

When it comes to waste the UK Treasury is really very proficient.

As a country we are employing far to many people paid for by public money with very little results.

Look at many of the previous ex soviet block nations that were bordering on third world. Spending on Military, Government and Nationalised industries that were just black holes.

The UK plc is badly run but especially badly run in Wales, Scotland and NI. All the real enterprise is concentrated and nurtured in the south east.

Scotland could do better for itself just by having more decision making control at a Scottish level.

It is not what the oil generates within the economy but what the oil could help to stimulate in other areas of the economy that would give us an advantage.

We are a small country and this oil would strengthen our financial profile while we stabilise the deprivation of the Cities and invest in the population.

Strong leadership and good management and focus can transform and countries economy in the same way it can transform a companies balance sheet or a football teams performance.
276

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 21:36:31
That is Scotland has already lost the quoted assets and it was NOT the fault of Scottish Independence.

The Westminster Gov. have seen to that, therefore the Westminster scaremongering about Scottish Independence costing Scotland it's assets is preposterous.

Actually, Scotland becoming Independent will cause Westminster to lose control of Scottish assets, hence the scaremongering.

It's just a shame that there are still some too stupid to realise this.
277

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 21:37:42
302 George I think you are being a tad literal. Not all revenue raised in Scotland gets spent in Scotland; we send a large portion of it down South in hidden subsidy. But be that as it may, rather than arguing all night about a bunch of stats, and there are lies damned lies and statistics as we all know, it's rather WHAT you spend your revenue on that makes the difference as far as governance is concerned.

As far as I am concerned, having bored myself stupid studying the subject, adding in the oil revenues will make an independent Scotland marginally more wealthy than a dependant one, but not enough to make a huge difference. I prefer to think of the action as being financially neutral.

Which leaves us in the position of deciding what we spend it on - and I think that is where there is the clear blue water between us and the unionist parties.
278

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 21:39:49
303 English Voice is sometimes a wee bit too clever for those who are not familiar with how he posts, that is not an insult, I fell for it myself, a lot of folks do.

He posts as a faux unionist - now you are in the loop sit back and enjoy - you will.
279

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:41:01
305 I understand the use of sarcasm .Am I to presume English Voice is not a Unionist?

I had presumed that he was.

Now I think I get the picture here.
280

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 21:41:10
303 Morris,

English Voice is taking the P out of the Westminster supporting clones. If you read a few more of English Voice's posts and alike respondents you will no doubt get the drift.
281

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 21:43:06
302Ugly George, Edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:29:26
301 Observer
The point is that (according to the SNP govt's own figures) the oil revenues plus all tax revenues raised in Scotland do not cover public expenditure in Scotland. Their own analysis demonstrates this clearly.

==================================

Now are you talking about money attributed to Scotland by the treasury such as 9% of military spending, etc, etc.

Or are you talking about money actually spent in Scotland.

Is your point that Scotland is in deficit? The UK is and always had been in massive deficit since the war.

In fact if you think about Scotland. Very badly managed yet only a small deficit on the balance sheet by Murphy's figures and we all know they will be a worst case scenario.

After 300 years of London rule could we really make the situation any worse. When the purse strings of UK plc are tightened and the government need to cut something. I would imagine a population where there are no votes for either Labour or the Tories would be high on the list of places to cut spending.

We need Scottish solutions to Scottish problems. We are an extremely inventive and resourceful and Resource Full nation.
282

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 21:43:59
309 I think I just twigged Thanks. I just hope English Voice is not somebody I know ! I already called Ian Lawson Alan !

I think Ill shut up for a while!

(It wont last )
283

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 21:46:08
''After 300 years of London rule could we really make the situation any worse. ''

No !!
284

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 21:57:18
311 Morris,

I see you already got it at 308

I wouldn't bother shutting up for a while, mistakes are easily made.

I once thought Observer was a Fitba Player when in fact it was someone who was quoting Observer who was.

Still, maybe she is. Who knows?
285

Ugly George,

03/07/2009 22:00:24
306 Observer
"Not all revenue raised in Scotland gets spent in Scotland; we send a large portion of it down South in hidden subsidy."

What is the nature of this "hidden subsidy" ? The Scottish govt's GERS analysis details the revenue raised in Scotland and the expenditure for which Scotland is responsible either in terms of what is spent in Scotland (health, education, social security etc.) or Scotland's pro rata share of common services.

The vast majority of expenditure is in the former category. The only items of any significance in the latter are defence and interest on national debt. In terms of defence, this is only 6/7% of total UK expenditure and much of it is either spent in Scotland (2 naval bases, 3 RAF bases, two naval shipyards, army infantry and armoured regiments, Royal marines base etc. etc. or overseas (Falkland Islands, Cyprus, Germany etc. and of course Afghanistan)

In terms of national debt interest, Scotland is deemed to be liable for a pro rata share. Where is the "hidden subsidy"
286

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 22:01:32
302 Ugly George

Perhaps one alternative would be to invest in decreasing the proportion spent on public services rather than current situation being that Scotland reportedly only rivals the likes of Cuba in terms of dependency. If you think that Cuba style dependency is the best that Scotland could have achieved over the last 3 decades whilst billions of Scottish Oil money flowed to England then you have a very low opinion of the cspabilities of the Scottish. In any case even with your own pessemistic figures we will only be 90 quid year worse of so we will be in good position to start repairing the Cuba style dependency engineered by this Union. Scotland can do so much better than any Brit Nat is willing to give us credit for . After 300 years of Union and 250 billion in the last 3 decades alone Scotland should and can be better than the dependency culture Union dividend.
287

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 22:02:55
English Voice

I apparently owe you an apology big time!

You are not off your trolley at all,just too fast for me as I try to latch on to whats happening.

I'm back in shut up mode again by the way.


Carry on .

Maybe I could be a Unionist also.I wouldnt have to think too hard to look foolish.

The Labour Party provide such a wealth of suitable material after all.

I always fancied being John (Total) Bull or perhaps
The Voice of Treason ..

Any suggestions gratefully acknowledged.
288

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 22:03:52
310 Sgian Achlais
Please see post 314
289

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 22:06:49
Ugly George 314,

"Where is the "hidden subsidy"

In the pockets, bank accounts and back gardens of unionist politicians?
290

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 22:07:29
314 George - think of the things that are not devolved. They are massive, for example social security is not devolved (some benefits are such as housing benefit and council tax benefit, but the major social security benefits are not). Defence, and all the expenditure that goes with it. The billion quid that the UK Govt has wasted on ID cards. And the national debt ! Bloody hell the Treasury just gave the banks £1.3 trillion - that's our money too. And where is that money going to George - the SE - where the power is. Just think about it.
291

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 22:18:09
315Wolf of badenoch
"whilst billions of Scottish Oil money flowed to England"

Why do you persist in this assertion when the Scottish govt's own figures show that this is not the case. As I said, their own most recent analysis shows that even if 93.5% of oil revenues are added to the tax revenue raised in Scotland the total does not meet the expenditure in Scotland. So if the oil money does not even pay for what is spent in Scotland, how can it then flow to England.

As far as the Cuba comparison goes, this is related to the fact that Scotland has a very high level of public expenditure and a very high proportion of public sector workers. My view is that both of these are too high and should be reduced but I don't find many people in Scotland who agree with me.

292

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 22:21:59
318 fitba krazy

Even if this is true, what proportion of the £billions raised in taxation does it account for and is it significant in terms of the overall fiscal position.
293

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 22:25:10
''a very high level of public expenditure and a very high proportion of public sector workers. My view is that both of these are too high and should be reduced but I don't find many people in Scotland who agree with me.''

I don't know if just slashing jobs for the sake of it is a good thing,particularly not in the middle of a recession, I think to get back to what I said earlier it's WHAT we spend it on that matters.

If you look at successful small European countries like Norway, they have a significant public sector, funded by public expenditure. But their public sector is productive; it is designed to support Norweigians living productive lives.

Our system supports dependency and that's all it supports.
294

karin Mac,

03/07/2009 22:28:49
bit of gossip everyone. which labour MSP is having a a little fling .....
295

Observer,,

03/07/2009 22:30:21
Do tell
296

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 22:31:04
Ugly George 320,

I agree with you that there are too many public sector workers and that expenditure is also excessive.

The nepotistic nature and "jobs for the boys (and girls) nature of Labour run quangos sees to that.

The first part of your post is not logical and is grasping at straws.

It would be a bit much to expect just the oil revenues to cover Scottish expenditure when you consider the amount of rebuilding requiring to be done and the waste of Scottish talent thrown on the scrapheap as Westminster looked after it's own at the expense of Scots and many living in Scotland.

They have been lying to and misrepresenting the "working class" for decades and many in Scotland have found themselves out of work and losing their livelihoods as a result.
297

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 22:34:14
#210 Ugly George

Scotland has a very high level of public expenditure and a very high proportion of public sector workers. My view is that both of these are too high and should be reduced but I don't find many people in Scotland who agree with me.

==========

U. George,

I agree that too much is wasted in the wrong places within the public sector especially in the central belt. There is far too much money being wasted in the wrong places within the public sector in Scotland.

This always seemed to me purchasing votes by the labour party. Much of the money is wasted trying to manage the deprivation created by the mis-management of London governments and incompetent councils.

There is a lot of good people doing their best on the front line but they are over worked and under paid. They are fighting the economic fire with insufficient tools.
Only
298

Ugly George,

03/07/2009 22:35:52
319 Observer
Hold on - you need to be more careful with the details. The setting of benefit levels for social securityetc. is not devolved but the GERs calculations have taken into account how much is actually paid out in Scotland in this category.

Also look at you comment on the banks. You state that the money that wnt to the banks is going to the south east. That is a peculiar assertion. By far the biggest recipient of govt money to bail out the banks was the Royal Bank of Scotland which is based in Edinburgh.

Then there is yoiy reference to "defence and all the expenditure that goes with it". Indeed. Just remind yourself of the initial headline of this thread - about contracts for Royal navy ships. Scotland has 8.5% of the UK population bt it has 2 out of 4 naval bases (50%) and 2 of the 3 (67%) of the naval shipbuilding yards.

As you said "just think about it"
299

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 22:35:59
Has anyone heard any more about Grahamskis referendum which according to him has been anounced by Gorgon Broon ?

I always thought that was one of precious few sensible utterances to come out of Puddles mouth.
If the level of support for independence is increasing and theres plenty of evidence to suggest that this will be so after the General Election,if its not already,then the earlier a referendum is held the better for the Unionists,I would have thought,and certainly they dare not risk one after Cameron has entered No 10 (and Broon has been collected along with all the other rubbish that once was evident there).

He has been keeping a low profile lately AS HAS Nikostratos and our old friend Sedov has sodoffed also apparently.

Maye its mid term and new moniker season of course.
Maybe they are the same person for all I know.
Im always suspicious when somebody agrees with any of them.

When did that happen I hear you asking.

Mmm Good point.
300

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 22:39:03
321 Ugly George,

Oh it's true alright, guaranteed for sure.

How many billions?

Quite a few I would think although an exact figure is difficult to extrapolate due to the "hidden" element.

I would say it is extremely, highly significant in terms of the overall fiscal position.

The corruption involved is immense and also well hidden but is gradually being exposed albeit slowly due to the silence of the Scottish media in many departments.
301

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 22:39:58
326

I don't think for a minute that they will do it. But it shows you the psychology of these people - they seem to view us as rats in a lab that can somehow be manipulated by their interventions.

So they will intervene and make the intervention really scary BOO!

They don't seem to realise that WE own this.

Bizarre.
302

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 22:40:56
Scottish media should read "Scottish" media since they are foreign controlled in the main, of course.
303

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 22:44:04
322Observer,, Glasgow 03/07/2009 22:25:10

I don't know if just slashing jobs for the sake of it is a good thing,particularly not in the middle of a recession, I think to get back to what I said earlier it's WHAT we spend it on that matters.

=====================================

Observer,

If I recall correctly you work within the public/voluntary sector in Glasgow so you have a better insight than me to the workings within the public sector.

I have no problem with not for profit publicly funded organisations that perform important public functions.

For example I would keep water, electric, roads, trains etc all within the public sector as I see no reason why a small group of people should profit from these.

It has been my experience when working with the council in the past some of the highest paid numpties I have ever met are earning an excellent living doing sweet fa with the full support of there equally inept colleagues.

Many of them are doing basic administration tasks with a massive pay, pension and benefits for £30K plus when there is no real talent or specialised skills involved.

Jobs for the boys, etc.

I see the salary slips and the pension statements as part of my work and am utterly shocked often.
304

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 22:46:32
328 God you've so completely missed the point I was making in such a spectacular style that I have to assume it was somehow my fault
305

Sgian Achlais,

03/07/2009 22:48:33
328Ugly George, 03/07/2009 22:35:52
319 Observer
Hold on - you need to be more careful with the details. The setting of benefit levels for social securityetc. is not devolved but the GERs calculations have taken into account how much is actually paid out in Scotland in this category.

================================

U, George,

There is no true exact figures for what is being raised and spent in Scotland for many of the figures in the GERS report as the Treasury use many assumptions and proportions to produce the figures.

We all know who controls the treasury.

examples to follow.
306

Observer,,

03/07/2009 22:50:52
333 I agree there is a lot of waste in the public sector - but I also think there is a huge gap in what they could be doing and what they don't.

I would just re-organise the damn thing completely to not support dependency but to try and support independency in individuals.

But no one ever listens to me:)

307

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 22:55:23
Labour Lies 334,

"Madness"

Of course there is a method in the "madness" and that is to pochle the result and keep Scotland enslaved to the union scam.

308

Observer,,

03/07/2009 22:59:59
333 And yes Managers are paid for too much they peg their pay to private sector equivalents, but they work for profit, and we don't, and we benefit from good terms and conditions and pensions so we should not expect private sector pay. I don't.
309

morris,

edinburgh 03/07/2009 23:00:21
326 Of course any referendum could ask any number of questions and we dont know what they are or indeed how many there would be in Gordon Broons version!

A multiple choice referendum which includes the meaningless "further powers" (but what are they) and/or a federal solution (where Westminster retains 91% of oil revenues in line with her population etc)or a variation on a similar con is probably the best we could ever get.

Devolution was never intended to provide Good Governance.It was intended as a power retention excersize,or failing that slippery slope, a gradual surrender of power is also a retention of revenues for as long as they can.

How you word the questions would have a major input into how we answered them presumably.

I hope Douglarse Alexander masterminds the operation if they really have gone loopy.
310

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 23:01:25
#314 Ugly George - "What is the nature of this "hidden subsidy" ?"

Well here is one of them.

I have not spent one single day outside Scotland in the last 51 weeks.

So every penny I have spent has been spent in Scotland.

Care to take a guess at proportion of it spent more than it took to say Asda/Tesco/M&S/Shell/Virgin/BT/BBC/VAT/Heinz/Kelloggs/Birdseye/Burtons/BHS/DFS/B&Q/Homebase/Screwfix/Ladbrookes/Camalot....IN Scotland.

Not a Lot.

Repeat for someone who lives in England...Teensy weensy disparity - No?

Any country who's economy is a branch office of a larger neighbour is going to be raped, malicious intent on behalf of the rapist is not the issue.

Unionists claim it is inevitable, desirable even...And we should lie back and think of England.

F'ing Pimps...the lot of you!
311

Wolf of Badenoch,

03/07/2009 23:04:11
337 Observer

I think you are spot on here there is definitely too much of a dependency culture in Scotland.
Ugly George will be pleased that is two cybernats agreeing with him on this point. Also I am ok agreeing with him a worst case of Scotland only being 90 quid worse of after independence. Now we just need to close the 90 quid gap and Ugly George will become a fully fledged Cybernat rather than just an undercover agent on our behalf.
312

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:05:54
337 Observer,

You are correct. It is all about what it is spent on.

However, much of the "public" expenditure doesn't actually reach the public due to the magnitude of scams that are now being gradually exposed by too few journalists.

Contrarily many are covering it up with their silence due to their corrupt collaboration with the avarice of the thieves.
313

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 23:09:18
342 Joking aside, it will be a hell of a lot easier promoting an independency culture in individuals, when we are actually independent as a country, than it is now. Because there is so much fatalism around that needs to be countered with a political will to actually do something.
314

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 23:14:36
#342 Wolf of Badenoch

£7 per week x 52 weeks = £364

less retailers commision(unless it is an English based chain) 2 or 3 tenners and my contibution to "good causes" in Scotland.

I think that should more than cover my 90 quid...If there's any change, tell Ugly George he can keep it.
315

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 23:15:30
343 Do you know how much money the last Executive spent and how little effect it had ? Grrrr. I was in public service (don't laugh I actually take it quite seriously) during the Tory era and we were starved. Then the Labour lot got in and honestly they have WASTED so much. Just wasted it. Corruption ? Yes in certain parts - and Michael Martins constituency is a perfect example.
316

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 23:20:48
Fitba Crazy you thought I was a man ? No. I like football when Scotland plays it but basically think it's a formerly working class game taken over by capitalists. Boo.
317

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:21:03
The reason for the dependency culture is the greed of the large pharmaceutical companies addicting people to powerful anti-depressants and also causing illness through side effects such as diabetes.

This suits the London Gov. who have closed down many of Scotland's manufacturing plants and also con the victims by telling them they are being looked after as long as they vote Labour.

You only have to look at the worst case scenarios in Scotland to realize they are the ones controlled consistently by Labour.

Labour promote illness in the population as they help themselves whilst falsely claiming they best represent the poor, the homeless, the sick and the unemployed. All lies to keep themselves at the trough, of course.

What a bunch of evil, greedy, power mad, useless bunch of cretinous turds.

Keeping people in poverty and illness to falsely claim they represent them, thus maliciously gaining the trust of the gullible.
318

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:25:24
347 Observer,

Not at all.

Women play fitba as well.

Only part of the game has been taken over by the one footed, funny hand shakers.

The money making part.

How do one footers become "top" players?

That is the question I am still waiti ng on an answer to.

Many of us are excluded because of our age and jealousy because we could blow them off the park and they KNOW it.
319

,

03/07/2009 23:28:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
320

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 23:28:56
348 fitba Krazy

Are you saying that the UK govt and pharma companies are conspiring to put people out of work, make them sick and get them addicted to anti-depressants.

If so I think many might assert that you should drop the first part of your name on these threads.
321

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/07/2009 23:32:19
348 Yeah they're all on DLA and medicated up to fock You meet people and they don't know what day of the week it is. But hey they they're in receipt of benefits and that keeps a lot of folks, including me, in a job.

I would like to seriously change that because it does my nut in that they have got the vote.
322

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:35:15
346 Observer,

"Do you know how much money the last Executive spent and how little effect it had?"

No,pray tell, but I would estimate it at Billions.

Am I right?

There is nothing wrong with taking it seriously, and I am not laughing btw, it's the ones who don't and are laughing at us who are the problem. They do exist as you most probably already know.
323

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 03/07/2009 23:38:07
342 Wolf

On the issue of dependency culture and high levels of govt spending, this is what worrries me about the claims over oil revenues.

Many seem to believe that if the Barnett formula does not provide the funding for this then north sea oil will. Maybe it would but the level of production is declining at a rate of 5/6% per year and any economy dependent on a diminishing source is highly vulnerable.

The problem of high state spending and subsequent dependency has to be dealt with. The problem is that I do not see any political group in Scotland with the will or determination to do so.
324

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:38:23
351 Ugly George,

"Are you saying that the UK govt and pharma companies are conspiring to put people out of work, make them sick and get them addicted to anti-depressants."

Yes.
325

Fitba Krazy,

03/07/2009 23:44:01
351 Ugly George,

So you think I am crazy eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QMYFgC_YSo
326

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

03/07/2009 23:51:11
#348 fitba Krazy

I hadn't looked at it from that angle

Civil Servants get salary increments just for serving the time and Bankers get bonuses simply for being there at the right time, ie anytime.

Underclassers must be more innovative if they are to prosper, feigning chronic pain, depression or stress related illness earns you a considerable pay rise from the DSS and releases you from the tedium of actively seeking employment.

It also provides you with a never ending supply of free prescription medicine, which can be readily converted into more tax free cash and gets your foot on the even more lucrative imported "medicine" ladder.

Little wonder the Drug Companies are standing in line to offer consultancies to politians...much more cost-effective than advertising.
327

Ugly George,

03/07/2009 23:55:53
356 fitba krazy

I would not presume to make such a diagnosis over the internet. Please read what I actually wrote.
328

ukrefusenik,

camelon 03/07/2009 23:58:48
i see that andy murray has turned scotch again .
ah shame , just when they had mercilessly bullied him into saying how much he loved being british . he turns back into a sweaty sock .tsk tsk, how inconsistent , scottish trait , that is ,inconsistency .
329

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 04/07/2009 00:01:09
356 fitba krazy

Please let me get the rationale of this conspiracy theory right. Are you claiming that the Labour govt thinks that it is more likely to get people to vote for them by puting them out of work? And are they recruiting the pharma companies to help them in this quest?

As a strategy this must be both novel and entirely unique in political history.
330

Fitba Krazy,

04/07/2009 00:02:07
357 The Col. of Monte Cristo

They are not necessarily feigning illness.

The Labour mob make you ill for real.

Especially when they destroy your livelihood while handing out freebies and accolades to their "friends"
331

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

04/07/2009 00:06:22
#359 ukrefusenik,

The poor wee soul got hell the other year there for supporting Anyonebutenglandia at the Football and Cricket..
332

Fitba Krazy,

04/07/2009 00:07:45
358 Ugly George,

Ok George you are not saying I am crazy but suggesting many may suggest so.

Tell me news, many think that anyway.

Am I bothered?

Ha Ha

NAW.

The truth is crazy, not me.
333

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

04/07/2009 00:13:05
#361 Fitba Krazy, - "They are not necessarily feigning illness."

So it is just Jerry T-Creature from the Lagoon of Death and his other Ugly Nonikers who are faking it then?
334

Fitba Krazy,

04/07/2009 00:17:29
360 Ugly George,

I don't think that the Labour Gov. think they'll get votes by putting people out of work.

I think the Labour Gov. think they'll get votes by twisting the reason to absolve themselves of any blame, ie. blame the tories, and lying to the people about almost everything.

The Pharmaceutical Companies require people to be ill or they are out of business.

The more healthy the population the less profits for pharm companies.

The more healthy your teeth are, the less profit for dentists.

The more psychiatric illness, the more work for psychiatrists.

The more brilliant fitba players, the less chance of a game for the connected but hopeless etc. etc. etc.

Work it out, you don't have to be Einstein.

Anyway, my long term suspicions have, to some degree, been corroborated by Dr John Rengen Virapen, Whistleblower of the Psychopathic Pharmaceutical Industry.
335

ukrefusenik,

camelon 04/07/2009 00:22:40
i would rather collect empty ginger bottles for a living as a free scotsman , than to empty champagne bottles living as an unwilling britishman .english money has always been used against scottish dignity , if i had a pound for every time i've heard a puir scotsperson tell me they would love to live in an independent country , but then assume the physical , literal cringe to tell you as if imparting some rueful bad but incontrovertible news , that mither scotland is too wee ,too puir ,to prosper , i would be able to buy a unionist newspaper SACK everyone , and then scotland could have one voice that didnt exist to pour poison in her ear
336

Fitba Krazy,

04/07/2009 00:26:08
364 The Col. of Monte Cristo

"So it is just Jerry T-Creature from the Lagoon of Death and his other Ugly Monikers who are faking it then?"

LoL. That lot and their/his/her/it's ilk for a start?

Definitely, YES.

If they are not, they have a serious problem. Yes?
337

JCA REID,

Annan 04/07/2009 11:45:19
RE Geoff #114. Has Australia bought an Aircraft Carrier? I don't think so. It is putting it's naval strength into increasing its submarine fleet.

 

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