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New legal threat to SNP's alcohol crackdown

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Published Date: 06 October 2008
A SECOND plank of the Scottish Government's flagship approach to tackling the country's booze culture appeared under threat last night.
Serious legal doubts were raised over the plans to set minimum prices for drinks, with experts warning that the controversial proposals could face court challenges in three different areas – European competition law, UK competition law and judicial review under the Scotland Act.

The SNP administration suffered a major setback last week when MSPs voted against its plans to raise the minimum age for buying alcohol in shops from 18 to 21.

That age-limit plan was to be part of a comprehensive assault on alcohol abuse and binge drinking. Other proposals included minimum pricing for alcohol, drink-only aisles at supermarkets, a curb on window advertising in off-sales and a ban on giveaway booze promotions in supermarkets.

All parts of the strategy, masterminded by Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, have been criticised by the drinks and retail industries, but now legal experts have added to the Scottish Government's problems, warning that the minimum-pricing policy might run into a series of different court challenges.

Ministers want to set minimum prices to drive up the cost of cheap lagers and ciders popular among teenagers.

In their initial consultation document, ministers suggested a price of 35p per unit of alcohol, a level that would raise the price of Strongbow cider rise by 27 per cent and McEwan's Export Premium by 35 per cent, but would leave Buckfast tonic wine much the same as it is now.

The new structure would not have much effect on the price of malt whisky but would drive up that of supermarket own-brand whisky and greatly increase the cost of mid-market supermarket wines.

Critics warned of the variable impact of the minimum-pricing proposal when it was announced in the summer, and Catriona Munro, a competition law partner at Scottish legal firm Maclay Murray & Spens, said then there could be "issues" with competition law.

Now Ms Munro and her colleagues have done detailed work on the Scottish Government's proposals and have compiled a more comprehensive critique.

They have concluded that, on the limited information made available by the SNP government, there are serious doubts over the minimum-pricing proposals on three different fronts:

&149 There could be a challenge to the policy under EU competition law, either from a foreign drinks manufacturer or a British retailer or manufacturer;

&149 There could be a challenge to the policy under the UK's competition laws, through the Office of Fair Trading;

• British retailers or manufacturers could take the Scottish Government to judicial review, arguing that the policy does not come within the remit of the Scotland Act because it deals with competition law, which is reserved to Westminster.

Angus Evans, a specialist in competition law at Maclay Murray & Spens, said one potential problem would come when the Scottish Government decided what price to set as the minimum for alcohol.

He said this would have to be done with the drinks industry, because ministers would need expert advice, but this would lead to problems.

He said: "Somebody could complain under the EC competition laws. In essence, what you would be saying is, Scotland is part of the UK and it has put into place legislation which rubber stamps an illegal agreement to fix prices.

"There would also be an argument that, if the Scottish Government is setting the price of alcohol, that could be seen as a competitive disadvantage for companies in other countries.

"If they set the price too high, if you are a Bulgarian making wine, all of a sudden, this change makes it difficult for you to compete. But it's going to be more serious with spirits because Scotland has its own industry. The EC might see that as a real protectionist measure."

Mr Evans did not believe that the Office of Fair Trading would be in favour of a move that set different price regimes on different sides of the Scotland-England Border as this would simply encourage greater use of internet sales and cross-Border booze tourists.

He went on: "There is also a question mark as to whether the Scottish Government has a right to do this under the Scotland Act. Health policy is devolved but competition policy is reserved."

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said: "(We have] made a range of bold proposals to tackle Scotland's cultural problem with alcohol. From raising the age of purchase in off-sales to 21 to introducing minimum pricing based on alcohol content, we believe these can tackle the alcohol misuse that's costing Scotland dearly.

"As ever, we will proceed on the basis of our own legal advice and not that of others. We are satisfied that the Scottish Parliament has the legal competence to implement our policies."

But Murdo Fraser, the deputy Conservative leader, said it appeared as if the Scottish Government's whole approach to alcohol was starting to fall apart.

He said the existing laws had not failed – it was just that the authorities had failed to use them.

"The blanket approach to minimum pricing is wrong. We should be targeting problem drinks and problem drinkers, not penalising everybody," he said.

Steps to tackle drinking abuse

THE Scottish Government's plans for a crackdown on alcohol include:

1 Raising the age limit for off-sales to 21: This has been condemned by students (including SNP students) and opposition parties, who claim the authorities should enforce existing laws better, not make criminals out of students and young drinkers. Last week, the Scottish Parliament voted by 72 to 47 to oppose this plan.

2 Minimum pricing for alcohol: The Scottish Government wants to introduce a minimum price for alcohol based on the alcoholic content of drinks: probably 35p per unit. This has been opposed by drinks manufacturers and retailers and now the legality of the proposal has been questioned. Competition lawyers have warned it could be challenged under European competition law, under UK competition law and by judicial review under the Scotland Act.

3 Separate aisles in supermarkets and shops: The Scottish Government wants to make the buying of alcohol a "special case purchase", like buying cigarettes, and wants to follow Northern Ireland, which has separate aisles for alcohol. However, this has been criticised by Diageo, the world's biggest drinks company, as "unnecessary and ineffective", and by retailers as expensive.

4 Ending loss-leader-type promotions: So-called "Bogof" offers – buy one get one free – have already been banned from on-sales and the Scottish Government wants to extend this to off-sales, too. Concerns have been raised about how this would dove-tail with the minimum pricing policy, but this is the one area that has had the least criticism from the trade and may be the most likely to survive into law.

5 Introducing a "social responsibility fee" to pay for consequences of misuse: This would be a fee that certain pubs, clubs and off-licences would be charged to help pay for late-night policing and other services linked to alcohol misuse. The Scottish Grocers Federation said the "social responsibility fee" was a tax that could threaten the livelihoods of small shopkeepers. Councillor Marjorie Thomas, convener of Edinburgh's licensing board, has also expressed caution, warning that city centre pubs were already being hit with increased charges.

6 A ban or a strict curb on window advertising for off-licences: This would greatly restrict what off-licences could use in their windows to promote products inside their shops. John Drummond, of the Scottish Grocers' Federation, said he believed window displays represented "almost their only opportunity" to advertise.

Price list

Asda's own South African red wine £2.50
Asda's own South African white wine £2.50
Asda's Beer Delux, 20 half-bottles £5
Asda's smart price vodka, 70cl £6.79
Tesco's French Red £2.49
Tesco's French White £2.49
Tesco's own beer, one 440ml can 24p
Tesco's Value Vodka, 70cl £6.54
Morrisons Australian Red £2.94
Morrisons Pearly Bay white £2.96
Morrisons Lager, four-pack 97p
Morrisons Vodka, 70cl £7.97
Sainsbury's Basics Spanish Red £2.23
Sainsbury's Basics Spanish White £2.22
Sainsbury's Premium Continental lager eight-pack £2.79
Sainsbury's Basics Vodka £6.54

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1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:06:16


"New legal threat to SNP's alcohol crackdown",

GOOD, GOOD, GOOD, INFACT VERY GOOD!!!

A Muppet Proposal that WONT Change a thing!, except affect the ones that don't cause trouble, and that have no problems with Alcohol!

It is about time the SNP realise, they cant act like,...

....'Bulls in a China Shop'!!!!
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:10:09


BTW! our 18-40year olds will never vote SNP again!

Effectively they are putting nails in their Coffin one more,

A Party that, if they don't behave themselves, will be History!
3

The Strategist,

06/10/2008 00:18:47
I'm quite astonished that bashing the SNP is more important to this apology for a newspaper than the meltdown in the banking system.
4

,

06/10/2008 00:18:53
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5

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 00:20:01
Another example of a badly thought through SNP policy.

Just as well they are not really in charge.

Imagine what life would be like if they had any real power.

6

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 00:24:37
#3 Worry you not.

Alex Salmond is going to fix the crisis in the banking system (just after he gets back from fixing the Hadron Collider).

His newly formed (in his head) Scottish Central Bank will be able to sort all the problems out.
7

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/10/2008 00:27:40
Alcohol is a controlled substance and not subject to normal competition rules, EU, UK or otherwise. Anyone can sell a bar of chocolate to anyone at any time at any price. Alcohol is not a bar of chocolate.
8

subrosa,

06/10/2008 00:30:02
I congratulate the Scottish government for doing its best to tackle the issue of alcohol abuse in this country. Every political party agrees there is a serious problem but only the SNP are prepared to do something about it.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 00:33:16

#4,,

"sensible enjoyment of alcohol"

That's where you are Wrong!

They are more than,...'Dammed Right Stupid'!

10

,

06/10/2008 00:36:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:36:59


Mor eold news, these threats were raised at the otuset of the consultation and were dismissed then as bollokks.

Fixing minimum drinks prices is possible under both UK and EU competition law, provided that minimum prices are imposed on licensees by law, or by a public body exercising public functions imposed on it by an enactment. Any involvement by alcohol producers or sellers in the fixing of minimum drinks prices, however, whether it be by voluntary industry codes or local agreements between pubs, police and licensing authorities, breaches UK and EU competition law. The critical factor when it comes to setting minimum drinks prices is that the alcohol industry should not be involved in the process in any way whatsoever.

This position has been confirmed by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) in written advice to local authorities in England. The OFT, which monitors compliance with UK competition law, confirmed that “…where minimum prices are imposed at the sole instigation of a public authority such as the police or a local authority …there is unlikely to be an agreement between undertakings that can be the subject of a challenge under the Act. (Competition Act 1998) However, it is crucial to differentiate this from a situation in which licensees actively and jointly participate in the determination of minimum prices in a meeting or other joint forum, facilitated by the police or local authorities and licensing officials.

This latter scenario is likely to fall within the Chapter 1 [anti-competitive behaviour] prohibition”. The OFT position was also clearly spelled out to the Scottish Beer and Pub Association (SBPA) who complained to the OFT in 2004 that the provisions in Licensing (Scotland) Bill would have the effect of introducing ‘linear pricing’ and therefore be anti-competitive. Rejecting the SBPA complaint, the OFT pointed out that in exercising its legislative functions the Scottish Parliament was not engaging in ‘economic activity’ and therefore
12

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:37:32
cont'd

in ‘economic activity’ and therefore was not an ‘undertaking’ for the purpose of the Act. Accordingly, the Competition Act did not apply to the Scottish Parliament acting in its legislative capacity.

Minimum drinks pricing schemes are already in existence in some local areas in England and Scotland, with the full knowledge of the OFT.

(1) Setting minimum drinks prices as specific monetary amounts makes monitoring and enforcement easier as authorities and the public can immediately see if a retailer is selling alcohol below a minimum price. However, deciding what the minimum price should be for categories of alcoholic beverages poses some practical and administrative challenges and legislators or public authorities may have to give some consideration to EU trade law on the matter.

In relation to EU law, if prices in the UK were set at a level which was deemed to disadvantage imported alcoholic beverages against national products, either because imported beverages could not profitably be marketed on the conditions laid down or because the competitive advantage conferred by lower cost prices was cancelled out, then a minimum pricing framework may be judged to constitute a trade barrier contrary to EU free movement of goods rules. If prices are fixed by reference to a solely national criterion without taking into account costs in other EU member states then the policy could fall foul of free movement rules. Deciding whether a minimum pricing framework did or did not constitute a trade barrier would require analysis of the relevant alcoholic beverages’ markets in Europe.
13

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:37:46
cont'd

However, it’s also important to note that EU law allows exceptions to the free movement of goods rule on the grounds of public health, provided it can be shown that the prices set did not constitute a disguised trade barrier and were proportionate to addressing the problem of alcohol-related harm.

Proportionality requires a measure to be necessary to achieve the objective, and that the objective cannot be achieved by any less trade-restrictive means. On this point, health campaigners would argue that the best available evidence demonstrates direct links between alcohol price, consumption and associated harm and that action to increase alcohol price is one of the most cost-effective ways to reduce alcohol-related harm. Campaigners would therefore argue that minimum drinks pricing was both necessary and proportionate.

(2) In contrast to establishing minimum drinks prices as fixed monetary amounts, minimum pricing achieved by a minimum profit mark up would not be contrary to the free movement of goods rule. However, determining whether a trader was selling alcohol below cost would be much more difficult to monitor and enforce as compliance could not be immediately observed from the selling price.
14

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:38:15


Additionally

Problem drinking impacts on major areas of public policy - health, social work, law and order, which are all matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Under the terms of the devolution settlement, the Scottish Parliament has the authority to legislate on minimum drinks prices in a devolved area, such as licensing or health, providing the legislation is not contrary to UK competition law (which is a reserved matter) or community law.

Scottish licensing legislation gives scope to Scottish Ministers to introduce minimum drinks prices. Indeed, new Scottish Licensing legislation which is due to come into force in 2009 has already been used to tackle irresponsible promotions of alcohol in the on-trade, and the current Scottish Government has promised to extend the provisions prohibiting irresponsible promotions the off-trade as well.

The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 comes into force in September 2009. The 2005 Act is in part based on the recommendations of the Nicholson Committee which was mandated to review all aspects of liquor licensing law and practice in Scotland with particular reference to the implications for health and public order and to recommend changes in the public interest.

The Committee opined that any legislation following upon their report should ‘set out certain guiding principles or objectives which are to be the underlying basis for any decisions made by licensing boards’. Further to this recommendation, the 2005 Act sets out five licensing objectives that licensing boards must seek to promote and take into consideration when granting or reviewing licences. The five objectives are: preventing crime and disorder; securing public safety; preventing public nuisance; protecting and improving public health; and protecting children from harm.

These objectives are similar to those contained in the Licensing Act 2003 (which covers England and Wales), except for the reference to public health which is absent from the Wes
15

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/10/2008 00:38:43
cont'd

Westminster legislation.

Schedule 3 to the 2005 Act also contains provisions designed to control irresponsible promotions in the sale of alcoholic drinks.


Irresponsible promotions which the 2005 Act will outlaw include:


•the supply of an alcoholic drink free of charge or at a reduced price on the purchase of one or more drinks;

•the supply free of charge or at a reduced price of one or more extra measures of an alcoholic drink on the purchaseof one or measures of the drink; and

•the supply of unlimited amounts of alcohol for a fixed charge.


These provisions on irresponsible promotions currently only apply to the on-trade in Scotland. However the current Scottish Government has promised to amend the legislation by extending the provisions to cover the off-trade as well.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Kenny MacAskill, has also announced that the government is considering action that can be taken within Scotland to end the deep-discounting of alcohol.

The provisions of the 2005 Act appear to be sufficiently broad to allow the addition of a further description of a drinks promotion which is irresponsible if it involves the supply of an alcoholic drink below a certain price.

The Act permits Scottish Ministers to add further descriptions of drinks promotions to those presently set out in the legislation or modify any of the descriptions and extend or restrict their application.

The Act further permits Schedule 3 of the Act to be modified by Scottish Ministers so as to add further conditions they consider necessary or expedient the purposes of the licensing objectives.

It could be argued that prohibiting the sale of alcohol below cost it was at least expedient for the purposes of the public health objective of the Act.
16

,

06/10/2008 00:53:43
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17

notime4anovice,

glasgow 06/10/2008 00:58:58
What a pity Hamish the reporter didn't spend his weekend trying to find ways of implementing a safer drinking policy for Scotland instead of wasting his time with this guff. He'd have been better off spending his weekend in the pub.
Loads of surprising stuff about Diageo disagreeing with seperate aisles for drinks.
And retailers saying it would be too expensive while they sell alcohol as cheap as chips.
Angus Ogg from some company no one has ever heard of going on about the EC. Surely it's the EU now Angus.
Hamish thinks the EU might not allow us to set prices for alcohol as some Bulgarian wine seller ( who buys that gutrot ) might be at a disadvantage. Tell that to the French who limit the price of their EDF energy rise to 3% while we get a 35% increase.
Depressing anti SNP article from a depressing anti SNP paper.
18

Maisie from Morningside,

06/10/2008 01:20:04
If retailers think having a separate 'drinks only' aisle is too expensive then they can always take the cheaper option of not stocking alcohol at all.

It's their choice.
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 01:35:47


Far Be It, from this Paper Being "Anti-SNP"

The SNP have been caught with their, 'Panties Down'!

Stupid Policies that Wont Work!

Trying to be Dictators!

Acting like Fools!

YES! this IS NEWS For All Papers, Far less the,..

'Scotsman News'!

20

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 06/10/2008 01:37:42
#10 Charles, Love,
Is all well with you and Suzanne? I have just arrived back from California(San Francisco) My favorite city in the world.
DOW. x


21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 01:49:11


doublescotch ~20,

The Answer is NO!

Suzanne is going through a really terrible time, I ask for your 'Prayers'.

On top of the IVF Failure, she was subjected to a serious attack,

It is taking me, more than I know, on how to deal with it,

All I have is uncoditional Love and Wisdom to offer.

-----------------

Sorry Readers! but "doublescotch" has been on these threads for years, I had to answer her Question, Her comments do relate to topics, as mine, this was a,..

Alcohol Related Attack on my Wife. (and maybe more)
22

Edward,

06/10/2008 01:54:59
Who is paying Maclay Murray & Spens for their work?
Perhaps Jack McConnell can answer this, you see he has connections with this firm, when he worked for Public Affairs Europe a company jointly owned by Maclay Murray & Spens and Beattie Media. Not saying he paid for the services but Im sure he will know who in Labour arranged it
23

Edward,

06/10/2008 01:58:48
What I find amazing is that the SNP Goivernment are doing there bes to tackle he problem of binge drinking in the young and all we get is attacks on them by Labour and their media flunkies. Surely for something as important as this the Scotish Government should be getting support. What this paper has never made it clear is that the Scottish Government are only consulting on the matter and putting forward some ideas and looking to the other parties in Parliament to either supprt, modify or come up with better proposals
24

The jurist,

06/10/2008 02:01:36
Very useful, Coileach an taobh Tuath.

Commended.

The trouble though is more psychological. It's the puritan ethic for the 21st Century and Government interfering in areas it has no business to be in, to get cheap headlines, mainly because they have such limited powers and keep looking to score a home run from them. McKaskill, get into this century. I'm tired of looking at your ruggedly handsome, grimacing, 17th century face. Also look around you. People really don't care about kak handed moral outrage, which you are so good at.
25

2Right,

On Location 06/10/2008 02:39:47
Come on kenny boy You are the Lawyer after all
26

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:18:28
#23 Edward and Charles Linskaill

If that's the best they can do on the subject it's pretty pathetic. The problem is that the measures punish the 90% of the population who don't drink and cause chaos. And whether they have any effect on the young binge drinkers is really a shot in the dark.

And yes Charles I do agree with your comments. The idea that our children won't be allowed to buy a beer when they're students is farcical...it's an intrinsic part of the course;-)
27

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:24:06
So what do all the SNP critics suggest we do about Scotlands alcohol problem and the crime it generates.
Obviously nothing.
28

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:26:49
Can't restrict sales, can't increase the price, can't raise the age for purchase and consuming alcohol.
So let's do nothing, truly pathetic.
This is our country, come up with some ideas instead of just rubbishing the ones put forward.
29

madabbot,

far away 06/10/2008 03:33:05
Some one has been on the buckfast when they wrote about the QE2 and her trip to BIRTH in the Forth nice one Scotsman or shouel we say allo sailor.......
30

Blarney,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 03:34:04
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2457426.0.Increase_in_alcohol_abuse_fuels_youth_crime.php
Yes everything is fine the way it is, my backside.
Start to join in trying to fix our country instead of hindering people who are trying to do something.
Our country is the sick man of europe, does that make you proud.
If you think the ideas are wrong then come up with some that you think will sort this mess out.
31

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 06/10/2008 03:47:19
I find it incredible that this newspaper which supports Labour and its hyperbolic increases in taxes wont support a similar move by a party that their own readership voted for.

In this case however the issue is one of taking taxes from a sector of commerce that costs the tax payer a great deal in terms of taxes, safety, lifestyle etc.

Its only fair that this industry which so boldly inflicts this harm on society as did and still do the tobacco giants, should be made to pay a bigger proportion of the bill and even overpay to make it take some responsibility for the problems.

Yet this newspaper perversly defends them - its like telling the victims to thank mengele for carrying out his despicable acts.

Government tax policy is not an issue that the courts need to rule on particularly when its applied in a fair manner accross the industry. Having a set tax per unit of alcohol is perfectly fair - if people want strong alcolhol concentration they just have to pay more - its a very elegant solution which to some extent is already being applied - after all why do we have the excisemen? This would simply adjust the numbers to make apply more sensibly in todays society. And it would apply equaly to local and imported goods so there is no anti competitive issue in this case.

It would render imported cheaper products potentially less cheap and nearer the price of the made in Scotland products - this is actually good for the scottish economy in at least thre ways. British made products would be more competitive, There would be less working days lost due to illness, there would be less violence and accidents. All good - so all you knee jerkers just think before you comment. Its not about law its about society and standards
32

jabberjocky,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 04:49:22
who's side were you on when Scotland was dying ?

The Scotsman - pathetic as usual - why dont you go and interview some a&e staff about this issue rather than some corporate shill ?

I love how theres no comment on the photographer that was fined for taking a picture of a drunk woman - half the population is drinking itself to death but lets just pretend its not happening and prosecute anyone who says otherwise.
33

Nikostratos,

06/10/2008 05:13:32
#35 col

sounds like a good idea to me...
34

somerferg,

perth 06/10/2008 06:19:19

Usual junk journalism from Hambo and lunatic comments from Charlie and his wee pals. What a shame there are still clowns out there who think that the issue of alcohol abuse in Scotland is one best left alone. Yes all you lot can rant on about are "your rights" to get pi$$ed as and when ever oh and of course encourage your sprogs to do the same (just like dear old daddie) How's about considering the responsibilities that go with those rights i.e. to ensure that the issues of domestic violence/ poor health/ lost productivity are dealt with properly in relation to the abuse of alcohol. Oh I forgot thats just a a bit too difficult for you to comprehend better to go back to the way things used to be with the party who likes to keep the plebs poor and ignorant as well as drunk while they line their own pockets - just ask wee joke McFlannel.
35

R Davis,

Vienna, Austria 06/10/2008 06:41:13
Two headlines from West coast papers this morning.

Increase in alcohol abuse fuels youth crime (The Herald)


Thug gets 14 years after kicking man to death for refusing a drink. (The Record)

Neither of them are startling news. Although the second is sickening.
The price list at the end of the article doesn't mean a lot. Alcohol is cheaper here, cheaper than the prices quoted, but no where near the same problem as Scotland. Something has to change.
36

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 06/10/2008 07:06:12
#34 "I wish Salmond would do us all a favour and retire"

Yeah, I bet you do. He keeps annoyingly making idiots out of Unionist trolls like you by bringing forward policies that are positive, sensible and popular with the Scottish people, and increasing the SNP's poll ratings month after month after month, to the point where they're odds-on favourites to win a byelection starting from 10,000 votes behind. It certainly would be doing you a favour if he retired, but I fear you're in for a disappointment.
37

Kyle N Carrick,

06/10/2008 07:11:35
35. Nice that you took AM2 shopping though.
38

Kyle N Carrick,

06/10/2008 07:13:35
41. If only Salmond had the sure-footed political instincts, managerial competence and policy expertise of Gordon Brown.....
39

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 07:26:35
#43 Superb point.

If only he did.
40

AntiPCman,

06/10/2008 07:29:12
11 onwards - Thank you for that, very informative, though I think aspects would be challenged.

I am not a supporter of the SNP but I do recognise that this issue has to be tackled. I am impressed with the SNP's sentiments but not with their methods of announcement on the way forward. They headline their ideas based on a poorly thought through manifesto and then fall foul of legislation or legal permission - eg. Council Tax and inability to borrow monies for school building through SFT.
As a teetotaller for 35 years, it makes no difference to me whether alcohol exists or not but something needs to be done to combat the excessive drinking in Scotland which is not confined to a tiny majority but is endemic in the Scottish culture. I am in a position to have an effect on people's drinking but I can only do that with legislation that works.
Get to it and sort some workable measures out and Scotland can enjoy alcohol in a sensible manner.
41

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 06/10/2008 07:31:55
I have a real problem with the under 21 thing - mainly because no-one has ever seriously implemented present laws on under age drinking- before thinking about more. However I am in favour of minimum pricing. Brown is also considering this in England - so we could get some rare co-ordination on both sides of the border. I believe he is actually looking at 40p per unit - so higher than here.
42

,

06/10/2008 07:35:14
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Reason:
43

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:35:27
43 Kyle
If we are to assess Salmond's abilities it is evident that he is strong in his "political instincts". However doubts appear to exist over his "managerial competence" and "policy expertise". The situation with the policies on alcohol appears to be the latest example of policies which have run into trouble as they have not been thought out properly.
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:53:04
50 bring them on
As in his injudicious tirade against "spivs and speculators" perhaps
45

Linda,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:56:31
Those who oppose anti irresponsible drinking measures will pay the price at the ballot box.
46

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:13:04
1 Raising the age limit for off-sales to 21: This has been condemned by students (including SNP students) and opposition parties, who claim the authorities should enforce existing laws better, not make criminals out of students and young drinkers. Last week, the Scottish Parliament voted by 72 to 47 to oppose this plan.


Duuuhhhhhhh as students would say. It won't 'make criminals' out of them IF THEY DON'T BREAK THE LAW BY TRYING TO BUY ALCOHOL IF UNDER 21.

COMPRENDE?????????????


47

McMillar,

Fife 06/10/2008 08:15:45
Bizarre that this is a headline with everything else that’s going on. Maybe the RBS team had a word with them to do easy…..The SNP proposal is surely a good move when the key aim is to reduce the number of young people drinking too much. Doesn’t really impact on me as I go for the expensive 2 for 1 at tesco! They are doing the right thing for Scotland here and objections all look rather petty. It is time to get rid of the ‘sick man of europe’ tag and we need to generate a lot more health + wealth.
48

Bigwull,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:18:54
prohibition doesn't work, I detect religious freakery behind this
49

Boy Wonder,

06/10/2008 08:21:20
Raising the alcohol buying age is simply the wrong way to go. And I saw this backlash coming from miles away. Why didn't Eck and his twonk of a minister McAskill??

Don't pursue this one SNP ... you'll lose the younger voters!
50

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:24:58
Why dont certain posters on this thread get off their anti-SNP anti-Salmond high horses and look at the wider social picture.

There are too many drink related crimes perpetrated by under 18s.

There are too many 14 - 18 year olds that think it is normal behaviour to drink themselves into a coma over the weekend.

The council and police are doing their bit by trying to crackdown on youth crime.

If drink was not available until 21 and ALL booze outlets strictly enforced the law the problem would disappear.

I woluld add a caveat to the Bill, compulsory £1000 fine to anyone buying alcohol to pass on to children (hey mister, gonnae get us some booze fae the shoap??)

Things were never this bad when I was young.
51

Calum10,

06/10/2008 08:26:58
Remember "LOBBYGATE"?

Jack McConnell worked for Public Affairs Europe Ltd that was jointly owned by Beattie Media and Maclay Murray & Spens.

Christina Marshall worked for Beattie Media.

MacLay, Murray & Spens have a very, very, very close relationship with the Labour party.

This is a put up story by the Scotsman, the Labour party and those closely associated to the Labour party.
52

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:35:53
The SNP want to do something about the appalling drink culture in Scotland.
THE OTHERS DON'T.
53

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/10/2008 08:59:57
Don't tell me, the Scotsman has been phoning around different Lawyers until it got a couplewho's views it liked.
54

cabrach loon,

06/10/2008 09:24:06
Education re the damage to health by excessive drinking is the most important step - how I wish I had been better informed before I left school and drank too much as a student - I suffer for it now 50 years on!

Price restrictions are pathetic like prohibition in the USA - the effect is the opposite, same as with drugs - crime may escalate instead!
55

SEUMAS,

fearn 06/10/2008 09:24:35
WHAT a misnomer--Hamish Mcdonnell I presume you are in favour of unregulated alcohol consumption with the attended problems it causes or is it that you just hate the S.N.P.
56

Miss H,

06/10/2008 09:32:36
65 Sorry but that is just rubbish. People have never been more educated about the dangers of alcohol as they are now yet yet people have never drunk as recklessly than they do now.

It is absolutely about price and availability not simply education.

As prices in real terms have dropped consumption has increased. Read the statistics in the consultation - the link between price, availability and consumption could not be clearer.
57

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:32:45
Scotland's fascination with alcohol must stop but the SNP's naive attempts to tackle the problem are laughable. If you want to know how to stop drinking, ask someone who has successfully kicked the habit - Kenny MacAskill. I take my hat off to him.
58

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:34:40
67

Miss H, you have been guilty of posting some tripe in your time but, on this occasion, I agree with you. I take my hat off to you.
59

Miss H,

06/10/2008 09:38:02
26 You are missing the whole point - while illustrating what the problem is.

It is not simply about young binge drinkers. It is also about the middle aged folks who come home from work, open a bottle of £2.50 supermarket wine and drink it. Every night. They are also drinking recklessly and hazardously though many of them may ignore the health message because they do not fit the stereotype of the teenage binge drinker.
60

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 09:41:38
Perhaps this member of the Labour Party had imbibed too much?!
http://tinyurl.com/3lgjux
61

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/10/2008 09:52:20
70

MissH, why are you talking sense today? I find it strange that I am agreeing with you 100%.
62

Calum10,

06/10/2008 09:55:57
This is a completely made up story by HAMISH MACDONELL for Maclay Murray & Spens have a very close association with the Labour party. Jack McConnell was once employed by MacLay Murray & Spens as a lobbyist.
63

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 09:59:23
Those who - like the SNP here - fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. America tried prohibition. It did nothing to curb alcohol abuse and much to give organised crime a solid economic base.

The SNP's daft notion that they can legislate unhealthy and antisocial behaviour out of existence shows just how far out of touch they are with reality. Salmond (not exactly an avowed teetotaller himself) is a populist bully throwing lollipops at voters, and it has mostly worked so far, but he has got it badly wrong with this one.

Btw, Scotland has a real gambling problem as well. Do you think there is any chance of the Smug One closing down the bookies?
64

Miss H,

06/10/2008 10:01:18
74 If the SNP was proposing to introduce the prohibition of the sale of alcohol you might have a point. But since they are not you don't.
65

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:03:28
If any of the commentators above really want alcohol-only check-outs at large supermarkets (but not small supermarkets, and off-licenses), I will eat my shorts.
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 10:05:17
70 Miss H
Are they going to stop doing this just because the price goes up from £2.50 to £2.80?
67

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:08:36
Ah the labour luvvies....may I suggest you check your spelling before you hit the submit button..Oh thats right you cant spell...how outrageous to say the snp are dictatorial...after 11 years of the labour high commands..giving us the nanny state?...Brown competant?..at least the snp are trying to solve this problem the labour party are more interested in the alchohol industries profits than the health of the nation..you labour deadbeats and dinosaurs are like your leader deluded and guilty of not living in the real world...psychophants who are running scared of by elections..i.e jack mc connells seat...wake up you fools the labour party have been treating the people of scotland with contempt for decades John Smith must be turning in his grave at the site of this pathetic excuse for a labour party...party of the rich...NEW LABOUR NEW TORIES ...VOTE SNP
68

Miss H,

06/10/2008 10:10:06
77 In itself no but combined with the other measures - separate sales aisles, a ban on 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 type offers, restrictions on advertising etc - then yes I would expect it to reduce consumption. Not least because it will raise awareness in a way that 'safe drinking' education just does not do.
69

Ronnie Ray,

GLASGOW 06/10/2008 10:12:34
wow still not spotted the deliberate errors yet!
70

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:14:08
#78 Ronnie

Yes, the Labour party is a party of centalised-state nannying. I am disappointed that you ignore exactly the same traits in the SNP (which propogates even more centralised government than Labour, and also fails to believe in people's abilities to think for themselves).
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:15:11
Another non-story. The Scottish Government have consulted civil servants and have taken legal advice on this policy. They will press ahead and this will become law. Murdo Fraser's party supports this part of the bill as do the other opposition parties, so I foresee no problems.

Better luck next time Hamish !
72

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:18:56
#78 Ronnie

By the way, Ronnie, I don't remember Labour ever relying on Tory votes like the SNP do in Holyrood (it would be inconvenient to declare it as a pact?).
73

notime4anovice,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:19:51
#78 Ronnie

Although I agree with your sentiment about Labour luvvies I wouldn't get into the spelling thing too much.
Everyone makes mistakes. Even yourself.
It's competent not competant for example.
And some sentences with capitals and full stops would make your article easier to read.
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:20:27
#74 GC

In the American context, Prohibition was the complete ban on the sale, manufacture and transportation of alcohol. Are you suggesting that this is what the SNP are proposing?
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/10/2008 10:23:56
#83 TM

No they just relied on Libdem votes.

I do note, however, that Labour at Westminster have relied on Tory votes on a number of occasions
76

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:26:59
#81..tin man we have tried the drink smart route..very little effect ..if scotland were to become independant the first three major problems that would have to be tackled are alchohol abuse ...sectarianism..poverty..if your alchohol bill is high maybe you are drinking to much! is it wrong to try and stop people destroying their health?..
77

SEUMAS,

fearn 06/10/2008 10:27:20
I remember when the pubs closed at 10p.m. in the winter and slightly later in summer, perhaps this should be considered again as opposed to the 24h.r. situation created by the labour party.
78

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 06/10/2008 10:28:53
#84 read #80
79

The barfly,

Orkney 06/10/2008 10:36:29
All this talk about new alcohol laws, price reforms almost makes me choke on my pint. Thank you Alec
80

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 10:36:37
74 Ghengis McCann, Edinburgh 06/10/2008 09:59:23
The SNP's daft notion that they can legislate unhealthy and antisocial behaviour out of existence...

What else is legislation for if not to curb "unhealthy and antisocial behaviour". Nobody seriously imagines that anti-social behaviour can be eradicated completely. But where there is a big problem, with huge social and economic costs, even a relatively small impact on behaviour can return significant benefits.
81

Snowy Bottles,

Norway! 06/10/2008 10:41:00
Something has to be done to lessen Scotland's Alcohol problem! It really is nothing to be proud of! Don`t see why there should be a legal challenge from the EU as In Sweden you can only buy strong alcohol (anything stronger than beer) in Government owned shops with a high fixed price and these measures fall short of that.
82

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 10:41:05
#87 Ronnie

So you are really in favour of the Nanny State ethos, but you believe that Nannyism from one party is better than from another.

I fail to see how the proposed legislation would alter people's attitude to intoxication. If you are in favour of going down this route, then you should stand up and say that you want the price of alcoholic drinks quadrupled.
83

walter,

06/10/2008 10:51:53
The assertion that the SNP are at least trying to do some thing about the situation that alcohol has on society when Labour has done nothing about that situation is made yet more amendments to existing legislation have been made since Labour came to power than had been made since the Acts were introduced.
Here's a wacky idea (I believe it is the way the Tories want to go) enforce with more vigour the existing laws.

Also why is it that if an individual or organization is critical of the SNPs policies they are automatically connected to Labour, Anti SNP and Anti Scottish.
Why is it that when a media outlet reports on these individuals or organisations they and their reporters are also connected to Labour, Anti SNP and Anti Scottish.

84

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 10:53:37
49 Ugly George, Edinburgh 06/10/2008 07:35:27The situation with the policies on alcohol appears to be the latest example of policies which have run into trouble as they have not been thought out properly.

In the first place, these are policy PROPOSALS. The whole point being that they are subject to examination, discussion and revision.

Secondly, you are accepting The Scotsman's word that the proposals have "not been thought out properly". Hardly a sensible thing to do given this newspaper's record for increasingly desperate anti-SNP propaganda. As others have pointed out, most of the issues presented as unforeseen insurmountable obstacles have, in fact, already been dealt with.

It also does not seem to have occurred to you that it may sometimes suit the SNP's purposes to highlight impediments to effective legislation in Scotland's parliament as a consequence of the anachronistic and increasingly detrimental union.

I do not wholly agree with every aspect of the government's proposals aimed at addressing alcohol abuse. But I most certainly support their aims and applaud this kind of bold initiative. As should we all.
85

walter,

06/10/2008 10:54:57
I do not know why I asked those questions in post 94 as I already know the answer.
The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked their side, they persuades themselves that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to this belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against them.
Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but they are also (since they are conscious of serving something bigger than themselves) unshakably certain of being in the right.
As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit. It is difficult if not impossible for any nationalist to conceal his allegiance. The smallest slur upon his own unit, or any implied praise of a rival organization, fills him with uneasiness which he can relieve only by making some sharp retort.
History around the world shows the rhetoric of nationalist is the same "Real (insert nationality)" were defined as those who unquestioningly backed the Leader, the party, and their policies. Any dissent from those policies was portrayed as a betrayal, as the work of enemies. Those who did dissent were harassed, threatened, and charged with being traitors to the country.
When reading the comments of Scottish nationalist posted on forums such as these this is all to evident.
86

Snowy Bottles,

06/10/2008 11:02:42
96 Walter

I take it you are also referring to Gordon Brown here ?
87

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 11:05:04
To get back to the original story, or part of it anyway......

Does anyone posting here have experience of gangs of feral youths from around 14 upwards drinking collectively in their neighbourhood, leaving empty (sometimes smashed) vodka bottles and cans around, kicking car doors once fully blootered, shouting and screaming (the females are the worst with their ear piercing drunken shreiks.

No??????

Then try it sometime, then comment on whether the alcohol age of consent should be 21.
88

The Tin Man,

06/10/2008 11:10:09
#98 Rambo

I take it you reported the matter to the police?

If the age-limit for buying alcohol is increased to 21, that creates a lot more under-age drinkers for you to report to the police.
89

brownlie,

06/10/2008 11:23:35
More importantly the present laws should be pursued more rigorously.

Everyone in this area know what shops/off licences sell cigarettes and drink to under-age individuals - except, apparently, the police.

Perhaps a salutary fine or imprisonment on/off those who sell/buy drink for those under-age would be a starting point.
90

Alan B,

06/10/2008 11:27:30
Do not really support the idea of a minimum price for alcohol.

However do support the idea of raising the minumum age of alcohol sold with in off licences to 21 (or may 20). The idea being that under 21s can drink in pubs etc and other supervised environments but to discourage people drinking in the street with the associated problem. ie it is better to stop the cause of the problem than having youngers drinking in public and then having to use the criminal justice system to deal with them.

As a quid pro quo reduce the age that you can go into a pub to 17 or even 16.
91

Alan B,

06/10/2008 11:33:17
#The Tin Man

Surely the idea is not to stop people drinking but to do so in a pub and not in the street or a park. a supervised environment means that problem can be dealt with and other not drinking do not have to fear going out the house or taking their dog for a walk in the park.

If you are taking the liberatarian view then why have we banned alcohol in public places already. Sruely that infringes on the liberty of those who can act responsibly. ie having a beer or bottle of wine at a barbacue etc. (if we ever get the weather).

It is about balance.
92

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 11:36:06
96 walter, 06/10/2008 10:54:57
I do not know why I asked those questions in post 94 as I already know the answer.

You certainly seem to be convinced of the infallibility of your own knowledge and understanding. Together with the use of facile stereotypes to aggregate those who have not similarly benefited from divine revelation, this marks you out as a bigot.
93

cataibh,

Over the Struie 06/10/2008 11:39:14
I suggest that the age to be able to buy booze should be lowered to 16, this way the tax to the goverment will increase and this will be in line with good thinking and everybody will be happy.
94

Jaime,

FALKIRK 06/10/2008 11:55:38
I'm thinking of forming a "co-operative" that will have "members" who will contribute to a "fund" that will be used to sally forth to Berwick-upon-Tweed for weekly forays into the supermarkets there and "trade" with the "foreign" alcohol provisioners - said alcohol will thereafter be "distributed" among the "members - not sold you understand - and therefore will not breach any laws known to mankind - Scottish, UK, or European methinks. Anyone interested in joining? Failing that, we can all become converts to Islam and give up our thirst for alcohol which will help our SNP government in its bid for capital works funding from Quatar.
95

walter,

06/10/2008 11:59:20
#103
BIGOT
A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinion differing from their own.

Maybe you can tell me from what I have written where it make me intolerant of others with opinions differing from mine.
96

Miss H,

06/10/2008 12:01:21
As regards the comments about the ‘nanny state’. Up until about 20 to 30 years ago public policy on alcohol in Scotland was quite hardline. Since the 1980s however we have all been going down the line of liberalising alcohol licensing and legislation in an attempt to change attitudes, push more continental style drinking etc in the hope that this, combined with education, would promote more sensible drinking habits. But it has not worked. In fact that is putting it mildly. It has been disastrously counter productive. As prices have dropped and availability has increased levels of consumption have risen massively.

People just need to read the statistics which are horrendous. Whether it is the health impact, the impact on the economy or the impact on crime and disorder – and the report published today on that and covered in the Herald is quite startling – the problems caused by excessive alcohol consumption are spiralling out of control. This is not something which has happened all by itself. (And Scotland has not always had these problems. Fifty years ago we had a lower than average level of cirhossis deaths for example, now we have one of the highest in Europe).

It has happened because of mistakes in public policy - and it is only by reversing those mistakes that we can start to reverse the consequences. The starting-off point must be the realisation that pretty everything we have done over the past two decades as regards alcohol has been wrong. We need to realise that our forebears, who controlled the sale and availability of alcohol very tightly, were right and we have been wrong. That may be hard for some people to admit.
97

TA1,

06/10/2008 12:02:06
Perhaps those who're shouting about SNP trying to implement policies that can't work should do less shouting and more listening - like to the folk living in the areas where they have piloted the no under 21 rule in offies. They, and the local police, have noticed a marked decline in the problems caused by this age group in the pilot period.
98

Displaced Scot,

UK 06/10/2008 12:09:16
This has to be a UK wide law, it will not work as the majority of people in Scotland are within hours of the English Border. Asda's carpark in Carlise will be full of booze cruisers from north of the border every Saturday morning stockpiling for the week ahead. You will need to have the Police waiting just over the border checking all cars driven by anyone between the ages of 18 & 21, then there is a Human Rights issue.
99

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 12:10:10
106 walter, 06/10/2008 11:59:20
Maybe you can tell me from what I have written where it make me intolerant of others with opinions differing from mine.

Are you admitting that your narrow-minded pronouncements on the character, personality, opinions and attitudes of ALL (Scottish) nationalists might just be wrong?
100

Arfur,

06/10/2008 12:19:49
I did not support the under 21 rule but this one yes. Makes sence. Some people will cut if prices go up along with other changes.

Youngesters dont have much cash on them. And even if they do get hold of booze then they will have to get less of it due to the price.

Shame the unionist posters on here think more about bashing the SNP than trying to get rid of a problem as serious as this. Sums them up however.

As for this artical - yet again this smell smeared rag talks complete garbage. I think i have read that about 6 of SNPs pledges are illigal or something and all of them turn out to be fine.
101

The Strategist,

06/10/2008 12:27:22
I still find it astonishing that given what's going on in the financial world the Scotsman decides to pick up this issue.
102

Ewan M,

06/10/2008 12:30:34
Why do some SNP supporters seem so unaccepting at any Scotsman stories not portraying them in all their glory. Sounds like the SNP are starting to take some heat and you don't know what to do.
103

Snowy Bottles,

06/10/2008 12:31:09
110 Displaced Scot,

Guess it all depends on how much you need booze in your life. Not sure all under 21s have access to a car and if the money they save will be more than the price of fuel, time and effort to get across the border? when they can just pop to the pub down on the corner? or have a coffee instead?


104

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 12:39:00
114 Ewan M, 06/10/2008 12:30:34
Why do some SNP supporters seem so unaccepting at any Scotsman stories...

Had you read these "stories" impartially, you would not need to ask.
105

Findlay Thompson,

06/10/2008 12:40:40
Methinks the Liberals, Labour & Conservative parties are in the pockets of the drink manufacturing merchants.

read on...
The number of young offenders who blame alcohol for their crimes has almost doubled in the last 30 years, according to the most comprehensive study into drinking and violence in Scotland.

The study by Bill McKinlay, governor of Barlinnie prison, and academics at Glasgow Caledonian University reveals a startling insight into offending and alcohol misuse over time.

Contrary to public perception, very few of the young offenders going into prison blamed drugs for their crimes but they increasingly claimed the problem is due to drinking. And offenders were far more likely to carry weapons and be more violent when drunk.

advertisementIn 1979 some 29.5% of the young men blamed their offence on alcohol compared to 40% in 1996 and 56.8% in 2007.

More than two in five - some 43% - of the inmates interviewed in 2007 revealed they had drank Buckfast immediately prior to their offence. The number blaming just drugs dropped from 21% in 1996 to 9% in 2007.

"Originally when I saw the research I found it hard to believe," said Dr Alasdair Forsyth, senior researcher at the Glasgow Centre for the study of Violence. "It's not common to get findings as spectacular as this but these are the results.

"The study indicates that drink per se does not cause people to be violent but it encourages them to go much further than they would have done otherwise. They said that if they were sober they would not have got caught - not that they would have been deterred from offending. If they do blame drugs, they blame Valium not heroin.

"In 1996 when there was more of a drug-using population - they tended to be less involved in serious violence.

"When we were fixated by drugs in the 1980s, alcohol was almost ignored as a problem and people started drinking more.

"The fact is that alcohol never went away and is now more of a problem than before." The re
106

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 12:41:14
At last it seems that common sense is starting to prevail in politics and in the law.

These proposals were plainly ridiculous right from the outset. All they will do is hit the law-abiding majority, cause enormous inconvenience for retailers and force them to adopt unworkable practices. Additionally, some of them are against the law.

In the meantime, the neds who cause trouble will continue to do so.

Enforce the existing laws regarding public order that the neds are breaking and leave the rest of us out of it. It was over-zealous enforcement of age limits in pubs which led to this situation in the first place. We need to take stock of this and ease up on the draconian enforcement if we are going to see any improvement in the situation.

This also needs to be accompanied by the changing of people's attitudes---if you can't handle it, don't drink it.
107

Findlay Thompson,

06/10/2008 12:50:17
#118

Fuel Head...

Do you own a VEB Sachsenring Automobilwerke Zwickau,
Trabant GTi?

The grapevine tells me these are flying machines only to be driven by exceptionally skilled drivers.
108

Findlay Thompson,

06/10/2008 12:50:51
#118

Fuel Head...

Do you own a VEB Sachsenring Automobilwerke Zwickau,
Trabant GTi?

The grapevine tells me these are flying machines only to be driven by exceptionally skilled drivers.
109

brusque,

06/10/2008 12:54:16
#1

""""A Muppet Proposal that WONT Change a thing!, except affect the ones that don't cause trouble, and that have no problems with Alcohol!

It is about time the SNP realise, they cant act like,...

....'Bulls in a China Shop'!!!!""""


42 days detention?

ID Cards?

Spying on everyone's phone calls and E mails?

I guess you think "Nanny" Brown is being diplomatic?
110

Doh,

06/10/2008 13:03:59
Old SNP slogan

Its Time

New SNP slogan

Times Up
111

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 13:04:03
118 Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head, Edinburgh 06/10/2008 12:41:14
This also needs to be accompanied by the changing of people's attitudes...

Legislation, with accompanying public information campaign, can be a useful tool in helping to shape social attitudes. The obvious example being drunk-driving which, barely more than a generation ago, was widely considered to be only a little more serious than illegal parking.

I am not convinced that the entire package of proposals put forward by the government would be necessary or even efficacious in this regard, but we have to start somewhere.
112

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 13:06:28
122 Doh, 06/10/2008 13:03:59

You make a strong case for measures to curb binge posting.
113

PlanA,

06/10/2008 13:07:08
If the authorities want to crack down on underage drinking as part of this remit why don't they also target the offenders themselves? I seem to remember underage drinking is an illegal activity. As with all 'social' problems these days it's always someone else's fault: The supermarkets, corner shops, careless adults, etc. Yes we have heard of police campaigns targeting groups in parks but why no publicity emphasising those caught underage drinking will be prosecuted? We seem to have lost using the fear of being caught as a deterrent and this applies to many more of the social problems we have. As long as offenders are blameless we are chasing round and round in circles. Too many cures and not enough prevention. Simple common sense really, which is why it's overlooked by the majority of politicians.
114

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 13:18:15
125 PlanA, 06/10/2008 13:07:08
If the authorities want to crack down on underage drinking as part of this remit why don't they also target the offenders themselves?

They do, of course. As you go on to concede. The effectiveness of deterrence is questionable, at best. And punishment comes after the fact. By all means, let offenders be dealt with appropriately. But we also need measures that seek to reduce the likelihood of offending in the first place.

It is not, as you seem to imagine, a case of "blaming" others whilst excusing those who break the law. It is, rather, a case of recognising the plain truth that there are more factors at play than here than just the behaviour of individuals.
115

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 13:21:15
# 99 The Tin Man,

Yes

We were plagued with gangs of drunken teenagers for about three years. The police and council finally got funding in place to set up Youth Action Teams to confiscate booze from and disperse gangs underage drinkers. Things have quietened down, I would say we have been largely untroubled over the past two years, however the problem still exists as the Meadows is a very large area.

A lot of posters seem to be missing the point, which is that raising the age to 21 will, amongst other measures, deter underage drinking AND NOT affect sensible social pub goers or 'buy a bottle of wine for drinking at home' people.

116

walter,

06/10/2008 13:21:38
#111
I will ask again where does it make me intolerant of others who do not share the same opinions as I do.

117

Kenny,,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 13:24:53
#96 walter
I assume as you are a British Nationalist that diatribe applies to yourself.
118

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 13:33:15
We have seen the effects of rigid alcohol laws in Canada and Norway and there is a totally different drink culture in both countries.
Whether the culture supplements the law or is a result of the law we don't know.
Certainly the proliferation of off licences in Scotland needs to be addressed as nothing else has had any effect.
119

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 13:35:16
128 walter, 06/10/2008 13:21:38
#111
I will ask again where does it make me intolerant of others who do not share the same opinions as I do.

All of it. The whole of your post #96 oozes intolerance.

And now you are getting tedious. Which may be worse than the bigotry.
120

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 13:42:16
#123:

"I am not convinced that the entire package of proposals put forward by the government would be necessary or even efficacious in this regard, but we have to start somewhere."

Agreed. We do have to start somewhere, but lets do something that at least has a sporting chance of addressing the problem rather than hitting the innocent shall we?

Enfocrement of existing public order laws would be a very good starting point. After all, no-one would be that bothered if all these so-called drunks behaved themselves and didn't cause trouble... Would they?

If we still had a proper police force rather than a firm of speed camera film processors and CCTV screen watchers, we would have the manpower to actually enforce the basic laws.

I tell you somewhere that would be a good starting point. Instead of patrolling up and down Rose Street to make sure no-one has the gall to take their pint with them when they slip outside with a fag, maybe they could make their presence felt in some of the parks and along the canal banks---where crowds of under-age kids ARE drinking and causing problems. Just a thought.
121

JT,

06/10/2008 13:44:22
Once again the sensible majority of the population will have their freedom of choice taken away! It doesnt matter what age you put it up, there has always been and always be under age drinking. We do need to tackle the yob culture that goes with this, however when you have pubs in areas such as Gorgie that are open pretty much 24/7 then there is no hope for the kids to stay away from the drink.
122

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 13:48:15
#127:

"which is that raising the age to 21 will, amongst other measures, deter underage drinking..."

No it will not. It will merely deter them from BUYING drink. Tell you what, I'd rather stick with the existing situation than have to deal with a rising tide of muggins and burglaries which these neds WILL resort to in order to get their hands on drink if they cannot get it by any other means.

Draconian enforcement of restrictive laws is NOT the answer. It has in fact led to the situation we now find ourselves in. It doesn't work. End of story.
123

walter,

06/10/2008 13:51:42
#129
No I am not a British nationalist if I were I would support the BNP and that I do not.
I do not like their rhetoric, British people who are non white should not be in this country and any white British person who does not think the same are not True Brits.
White British people who see non white British people as equals are traitor to Britain and all that rubbish.

124

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 13:58:25
127 Rambo.the.Jambo, Edinburgh 06/10/2008 13:21:15
...raising the age to 21 will, amongst other measures, deter underage drinking AND NOT affect sensible social pub goers or 'buy a bottle of wine for drinking at home' people.

While I agree that it will not have any significant impact on "sensible social pub goers", you are completely wrong in imagining that raising the age-limit would deter under-age drinking. In fact, it would exacerbate the problem massively. Because it would instantly criminalise all the "sensible social pub goers" between the aged 18-20.

We should be clear, however, that the proposal is to raise to 21 the age-limit for off-sales only. Although I am not persuaded that this is any more acceptable than a general raising of the qualifying age.
125

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 14:01:40
Alex Salmond's latest SNP broadcast is now available on YouTube.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B-xG3D8OMQk



126

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 14:08:38
137 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 14:01:40

Such infantile nonsense only serves to highlight your lack of any rational argument as well as your inability to adequately articulate your views.

In plain language, you just made a complete fool of yourself.
127

The Sprucer,

06/10/2008 14:10:29

#29 I agree that something needs to be done yet I would do it slightly different. I would restrict the availability of alcohol to pubs, clubs and selected off licences NOT supermarkets and newsagaents/corner shops. This is where the problem lies: in the housing schemes where people (who don't work) are quite able to get themselves a 12 pack and a bottle of tonic at 12 oclock in the afternoon, sometimes even before.
128

The Sprucer,

06/10/2008 14:13:39

I would also like to restrict the timetable as well. Why not for example having off licence sales from 5Pm 'til whenever the shop closes and curb sunday drinking.

Anyone duly sticking their head in the sand (Unionists) please pop in to the Royal Infirmary on a Saturday night.
129

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 14:14:50
Hey Electric, it sounds like you believed the post and went to Youtube to check it out.

What a complete tool you are.
130

walter,

06/10/2008 14:22:31
#131
All of it. The whole of your post #96 oozes intolerance.

That is my view of what I have read of nationalism around the world, comments made by nationalist on these forums just strengthens my view as far as I am concerned.
It does not mean that I do not accept that others have different opinions on nationalism than I do nor that I expect them not to have other opinions either.
The fact that you have flung a word like bigot in my direction just because you do not like what I have said means you probably see it as true and do not like it so you wish to shut me up by accusations of me being bigoted.
131

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 14:28:51
141 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 14:14:50
Hey Electric, it sounds like you believed the post and went to Youtube to check it out.

While I did not for one second "believe" the post, I was intrigued to discover the nature and extent of your foolishness. Trust me! It is not something you should be drawing further attention to. Stop digging!
132

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 14:29:24
'The new structure would not have much effect on the price of malt whisky but would drive up that of supermarket own-brand whisky and greatly increase the cost of mid-market supermarket wines'

WHY? This just lets rich drunks of the hook. Increase the price of all alcohol across the board but drop the nonsensical policy of banning under 21s form buying a few cans from an off-licence. Increase a bottle of malt to £70-100. Use the tax revenue to make up the shortfall in the NHS. Make drunks pay the real price for their indulgence.

Do this and you get my support , otherwise forget it.
133

brownlie,

06/10/2008 14:31:54
142 Walter

"Every nationalist is capable of the most blatant dishonesty...."

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of views, beliefs, or opinion other than his own. I would class that opinion of yours posted at 96 as falling into that category.

Do you know every nationalist in Scotland or are you posting blatant lies in your sweeping generalisation?
134

Miss H,

06/10/2008 14:34:56
144 Silly point. Malt whisky already costs more than other spirits - which is why it is not the drug of choice of any drunk I know. If all spirits were priced at the same level as a single malt less of it would be drunk.
135

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 06/10/2008 14:36:09
The SNP are at least trying to look for solutions to this problem, however you only have to read some of these posts, which simply dislike Scotland having different legislation to the rest of the UK. And here i thought the Scottish Parliament was SUPPOSED to look after Scotlands interests, simple, however must be too complicated for some people
136

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 14:36:50
142 walter, 06/10/2008 14:22:31
The fact that you have flung a word like bigot in my direction just because you do not like what I have said means you probably see it as true...

Far too many logical fallacies in this to catalogue here. Non sequitur and various syllogistic errors will have to do.

I am content that you should be condemned by your own utterances.
137

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 14:36:59
#105 Good post Jamie.

I was also thinking of selling 'addresses of convenience' in Berwick to avoid the proposed (not so) local income tax. The SNP are very favorably disposed towards small businesses. Fancy going into partnership and applying fro an enterprise award from the Scottish Government?
138

Green Fir Christmas Trees,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 14:37:32
This is a ridiculous story, as world markets hit new lows, the tartan press hits new highs in parochial reporting!
http://www.thebloggersguide.com/edinburgh/the-tartan-press
139

brownlie,

06/10/2008 14:41:09
142 Walter

Actually, having had another look at your posting at 96 it strikes me as possibly being libellous. Perhaps Cameron Fyfe might be interested!
140

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 14:43:35
146

You joking -just look at the BMW/4x4 brigade that literally get away with murder.

Incidentally you will find that the highest incidence of cirrhosis of the liver is found amongst this group. Trust an SNP supporter to come to the defence of the bourgeois establishment of Scotland. My plan would
reduce alcoholism your plan (ie what Alex and Kenny told you to think) will make it worse. So stick that up your SNP.
141

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 14:43:55
147 Westfield Bairns, falkirk 06/10/2008 14:36:09
The SNP are at least trying to look for solutions to this problem, however you only have to read some of these posts, which simply dislike Scotland having different legislation to the rest of the UK.

If Alex Salmond found a way of freeing the world of poverty, hunger, disease and conflict some of these rabid unionists would denounce him as incompetent for not doing so while on a unicycle. Best pay them no heed.
142

Weegiewarbler,

Afloat 06/10/2008 14:55:12
It would seem no thinking person would deny there is a problem here - would they?

It also seems those in opposition (lib/lab/tory) are not worth what some otherwise apparently intelligent folks seem to spend on them.

You see in our opinion - no credible party would attack another on an issue such as this without first having an alternative to propose - out of ALL the suggestions, a possible solution might be found?

Here's one for thought. We know about what this problem costs. In fiscal terms anyway. Figure out how many (approx) units of alcohol are sold in the country yearly.
Divide the costs by the amount of units.
Triple the levy per unit, to allow for administrative costs and an advertizing blitz.
Put media EVERYWHERE - including offlicences & clubs.

Exempt pubs and clubs unless sold as a "carry out" - the barkeeps should be monitoring their customers.
Part of this exemption would be a statutory fine for pubs and clubs that regularly allow clients to drink to excess.
Pubs and clubs can also be an intrisic part of the social network & should be encouraged. (no - we're not in the "trade").
Exempt drink consumed with a meal in a licenced resteraunt.
Toughen the penalties, eg - disorderly conduct is one level, drink involved doubles or trebles it, with the same standards as for driving.

This social problem took years to develop, and in our opinion is simply another "union dividend" - which will slowly dissipate with time.

We do find it rather incredulous though that most of the major parties in Scotland think care so little for the future of our youth!
143

Miss H,

06/10/2008 14:55:55
152 If you have any evidence to suggest that the highest rates of cirrhosis of the liver are found among people who drink single malt whisky perhaps you will post it?
144

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 15:01:20
As has already been pointed out, alcohol is a "controlled substance". Surely the onus for dealing with the consequences of irresponsible consumption rightly falls on those who profit by its manufacture and sale. Those who are licensed to so profit on the supposedly strict condition that they do so in a responsible manner and in compliance with the law.

For far too long retailers and operators of licensed premises have evaded their responsibilities in this area while local authorities have focused almost exclusively on the relatively trivial matter of opening hours.

The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 includes provisions which will almost certainly go a long way to addressing this issue. These provisions come fully into force next year. All resources should be devoted to implementing and enforcing these provisions.

While I welcome the government's efforts in advancing new ideas, I am of the opinion that no further measures should be taken until we have had an opportunity to fully assess the effect of the new regulations. In particular, we should avoid draconian measures which target consumers and are sure to alienate large sections of the community.

The only exception I would make to the "moratorium" on further legislation is a total prohibition on ALL promotional offers.
145

WHISTLEBLOWER,

gdgdg 06/10/2008 15:18:56
I thought Calvinism was dead in Scotland.

Just because a few neds in and around Glasgow aren't kept properly occupied, why do the rest of us have to pay?
146

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/10/2008 15:21:41
Alcolhol is already a restricted product and is not subject to normal competition rules. A minimum price per unit does not per se discriminate between products. What it will do is drive the cheap and nasty stuff from the market place and protect the better product; the cheap and nasty £2.50 bottle of wine, the white cider, and the fiery downmarket whiskies and spirits.
147

Kenny,,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 15:50:47
#135 walter

It is obvious you have no grasp of what Nationalism actually is. Rather it is just a term of abuse for you and you define it to suit your own narrow ends.

By any accpeted definition of nationalism your comments on these forums reveal you to be most definetely a British Nationalist. Perhpas you are indulging in some sort of bizarre slef-loathing behaviour.
148

JCA REID,

Annan 06/10/2008 15:53:35
Why didn't the SNP Administration simply "devolve" the matter to Local Authority Regions/Districts to vote accordingly?
Some areas have brought this in to curb binge drinking yobbism with a marked success.
Just goes to show what a "pretendy" Parliament we actually have!
149

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 16:06:55
162 JCA REID, Annan 06/10/2008 15:53:35
Some areas have brought this in to curb binge drinking yobbism with a marked success.

In your desperate haste to belittle and deride Scotland's parliament you have abandoned clarity. What do you mean by "this"? If you mean the full measure as proposed by the SNP, that would be surprising since they do not yet have the force of law. Not to mention the fact that those who side with you in denigrating the nation and people of Scotland hold that these measures are unworkable and illegal.

If you actually meant something else, maybe you would like to tell us what it was.
150

sweet76,

Coventry 06/10/2008 16:28:33
I can see a lot of under age drinkers when I'm coming home from work on a Friday night but have never seen an offie close. In England we can't even enforce the law we do have. I can't ever remember Police coming into a pub to check ages.
151

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 16:31:39
JCA Reid, how dare you abandon clarity.

You do after all, answer to Electic Hermit.

In fact it looks like we all do, judging by the pathetic and pedantic nature of his replies.

None of his posts will get the Crystal Mark. Thats for sure.
152

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 16:36:32
164 sweet76, Coventry 06/10/2008 16:28:33
I can see a lot of under age drinkers when I'm coming home from work on a Friday night but have never seen an offie close. In England we can't even enforce the law we do have. I can't ever remember Police coming into a pub to check ages.

How many of the under-age drinkers you see on a Friday night are in a pub? How many of them do you imagine paid pub prices in preference to the cut-price offers at the nearest supermarket?
153

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 16:38:46
165 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 16:31:39
None of his posts will get the Crystal Mark. Thats for sure.

If there is anything you don't understand, sonny, you only have to ask.
154

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 16:51:10
What strikes me with the Scot Nats on here is the obsession with separating everything into neat little parcels of what is Scottish and what is English.

We have been in a Union for 300 years and thus have 300 years of shared history. They seem to want to erase these 300 years as if they never happened, which of course can't be done. It is not Scotland's oil, it is the UK's, just like Westminster isn't Englands parliament, it is the UK's.

Most people from my experience don't share this obsession with separating everything into Scottish and English constantly, it is tedious and pointless, and based on a narrow minded, xenophobic Anti-English mindset.

It is also rooted in this perpetual fantasy notion of Scottish victimhood (a la HBOS) and this is despite the UK currently having a Scottish PM and Chancellor, from a party whose last 3 leaders were born Scots and whose cabinet is usually dominated by Scots.
155

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 16:55:53
167 Do not worry Electric Hermit, I certainly don't need any help from a chump like yourself.
156

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 16:58:32
168 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 16:51:10
What strikes me with the unthinking unionists on here is the obsession with keeping everything exactly as it has been for 300 years.

Fortunately, not all of us are so fearful of change and progress. While you dwell on the past, we look to the future.
157

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:03:34
169 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 16:55:53
167 Do not worry Electric Hermit, I certainly don't need any help from a chump like yourself.

Your earlier posts showed no hint of embarrassment at looking foolish. Why so shy all of a sudden?

You admit to having difficulty understanding some of my points. Just tell me what is confusing you and I'll be glad to help you out in any way I can.
158

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 17:04:00
Electric, I certainly look to the future.

In that future I can see an extra 1000 policemen.

Looks like that future is not reality.

I must have been dreaming.
159

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 17:06:18
putting the age up or price to buy bevvy wont make any difference , the problem lies with letting anyone sell the bevvy, supermarkets aready have an over 21 policy and have had it for a few years now , the problem lies with the local shops who sell anything to anyone regardles of age , lets go back to only pubs and supermarkets selling bevvy, round the corner from me the post office/ local shop/ takeaways of which there are four all sell bevvy and if everyone on this site went into their local shop they will find only one common denominator
160

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 17:08:15
Electric, whats this?

"You admit to having difficulty understanding some of my points. Just tell me what is confusing you and I'll be glad to help you out in any way I can."

Are you imagining things now are you deliberately passing off inane nonsense as fact?
161

Miss H,

06/10/2008 17:09:01
168 What strikes everyone else is how irrelevant your comments actually are.

Like many unionists you can't seem to understand that the only person obsessed with dividing everything into Scottish and English is you.
162

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:10:20
172 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 17:04:00
I must have been dreaming.

That would explain a great deal. Perhaps when you return to reality you might have something meaningful to contribute.
163

Miss H,

06/10/2008 17:12:11
162 They have been brought in on a voluntary basis - what the SNP is proposing is to make it manadatory.

It will probably end up being a power which is exercised at local level.
164

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:12:23
174 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 17:08:15
Are you imagining things now...

You just said that you were the one who was "dreaming". Try to keep up!
165

democracy,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 17:18:20
All you SNP haters out there who pretend to disagree with this policy make it clear that had the previous administration brought it forward you would be supporting it 100% because its obvious you are a party orientated bunch of posters rather than policy driven, how sad are you?

Just promise me this,when some of you have your property damaged or god forbid, yourselves, by a bunch of drunken 14-18yr old louts who got their booze from some irresponsible 18-20yr olds via an off-licence please do not complain to the Government as they tried to do something positive about it!!

They bother to put in place 3 test areas and dicovered that it worked, said so by the police and residents from those areas and guess what the other parties choose to disagree and won't allow it through because it is an SNP policy and it would not do politically to allow the Scottish people see yet another intiative of the Government to succeed as it would start to appear that the other parties are becoming an irrelevance!!
166

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:18:53
173 brettgallacher, edinburgh 06/10/2008 17:06:18
putting the age up or price to buy bevvy wont make any difference...

I suspect you are correct. The obsession with price-based measures is as misguided as the obsession with opening hours. What we need to recognise is that there are wider social factors involved in the fact that ever younger children appear to be drinking to ever greater excess. Until we understand something about why that is happening, any measures are likely to be inadequate.
167

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 17:20:15
#178 Another riveting post from Electric Hermit.

The fact that he can't backup his statements speaks volumes.

168

Kyle N Carrick,

06/10/2008 17:23:04
178. LOL. How easily you kipper and fillet the repulsive, bitter and negative Rufus T.
169

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 17:28:44
Electric, looks like the reinforcements have arrived.

2 against 1 would be a fairer fight for you.

Anyway must dash.

Toodle Pip.
170

Nevsky,

Moscow 06/10/2008 17:29:12
168 Rufus#

See your brain is still amazingly producing small electrical impulses:

'It is not Scotland's oil, it is the UK's, just like Westminster isn't Englands parliament, it is the UK's'

Sorry to burst the bubble but the oil IS Scotlands and only British because morons like you keep voting to give it to Westminster.

Simple mathematics for you: billions into UK=no differennce to Scotland: billions into Scotland=a country as rich as Norway!

Has Norway given their wealth to Sweden out of interest for the 'general good'..nope..only Scottish dopes like you still believeing the lies from London...pat on the head for good Scottish subservient doggie!
171

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:32:26
172 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 17:04:00
In that future I can see an extra 1000 policemen.

Already happening. You should check your facts before shooting off your mouth.

The latest figures available show police numbers in Scotland at their highest level ever. At the end of June there were 16,339 police officers in Scotland, an increase of 118 over the previous quarter. By the end of this year the Scottish government will have directly funded the recruitment of 600 officers. This is in addition to normal recruitment.

Only a complete fool would have expected the promised 1000 additional officers to magically appear on the streets overnight. The government is to be congratulated on achieving so much despite the concerted obstructionism of the unionist coalition.
172

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 17:35:52
I've just been speaking to a friend of mine who was at St.Andrews University with AS. Apparently he spent an inordinate amount of time in the Student Union doing guess what?
173

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 17:43:03
#179,

The data obtained from these studies was purely anecdotal and was ridiculed by no less a person than professor Sheila Bird who is Vice-President of the Royal Statistical Society (in other words knows a hell of a lot more about statistics than Alex or Kenny). The problem is that you believe what you want to believe the rest of us assess the evidence and then make our minds. The evidence is inconclusive so the trials tell us nothing. Furthermore they would be rejected by any reputable academic journal. One of the claims made was a 60% reduction based on 7 observations!!!!!!
174

The_Reiver,

06/10/2008 17:43:41
188
No I went to a proper Tech College.
175

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 17:44:42
182 Kyle N Carrick, 06/10/2008 17:23:04
LOL. How easily you kipper and fillet the repulsive, bitter and negative Rufus T.

It really isn't much of a challenge. These poor souls are still parroting the same puerile unionist propaganda I've been hearing for decades. Present them with something new - such as the issue supposedly under discussion here - and they quickly lose the plot and have to resort to the little unionist book of tired lies and worn-out clichés.

But the fact that they lack the courage and imagination to aspire to something more than the comfortably familiar does not make them our enemies. They are to be persuaded, not pilloried.

But sometimes the sillier ones just present too tempting a target.
176

Ewan M,

06/10/2008 17:48:40
#184 Nevsky you solved all Scotland's problems, your great come back from Russia and take over from that joker Salmond. Did you go to his ecconomics class? You never passed as well did you!!!! Your not Alex Salmond are you?!!!!!!!
177

Ewan M,

06/10/2008 17:52:08
Your oil and gas argument is like saying the South of England will want to be independent in 30 years because their financial sector is taking in 10 times the oil and gas revenues.
178

Alan B,

06/10/2008 18:08:09
#Ewan

And you do not think there is a big risk that when oil runs out then England could very well decide it should go it alone.

It has taken England a while to get over the empire mentality. (the political classes i am not talking about the general population).

As such many would probably be quite happy if NI went its own way. Much of the rational for keeping NI was due to the defence needs. ie they did not need a repeat of WW1.

If scotland does not have much to offer and continues down the path of decline then why will England want to maintain the union. Oil and defence are 2 important reasons at the moment. But over time Scotlands bargaining power within the union will decline.

At the end of the day westminster is english dominated. As such if it wanted it could change any of the arrangements within the union that it wants. The question for Scotland is it a union at any price. During the 80s with Thatcher it was a union at any price. If westminster imposes policies on scotland that scotland does not agree with then is scotland going to accept it or stand up for itself. It will only be by standing up for ourselves that we will not be walked over. Unfortunately none of the unionist parties seem to want to stand up for scotland within the union.

Obviously part of the problem when bargaining is you must have a strong hand. By unionist parties saying it is a union at any cost which is effectively what they have then you have a poor hand to play particularly when scotland is run down over a long period making it more difficult to assert yourself.
179

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 18:08:12
Has anyone taken the time to check out the shopping list prices in the article? My local Asda and Tesco do the same wines for around £2.99 - £3.99 and the beers they mention are 2%abv for 440ml. There is already a duty on abv which is reflected in the price.

Also interesting to note is that Asda and Tesco have their own brand 4% and 5% beers brewed in the Netherlands or Belgium. Wonder why.

Still. Must agree with those who reckon that existing laws are adequate. MacAskill should perhaps take a sabbatical (maybe even give Cunningham a locum) until he learns the difference between being a zealot and a statesman.

180

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 18:11:37
re 196. maybe even appoint Cunningham as MacAskill's locum
181

williamx,

canada 06/10/2008 18:16:11
Just put a duty on it payable at the sales source and used by the government to increase pensions. A duty applied to all alcohol products regardless of origin should fix the EU also.
182

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 18:19:04
Nearly forgot. How can a minimum sales price be detrimental to Bulgarian wine exporters?

The Co-op, unable to compete with the big 4, have gone Fair Trade. This means paying excess profits to the Co-op. Lidl does Fair Trade at cheaper prices. It is all relative.
183

brownlie,

06/10/2008 18:27:44
159 sm753

Sorry, I read his posting at #96 as "Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty".

Are you now telling me that he posted "Every anonymous ID is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty"?
184

Ewan M,

06/10/2008 19:01:27
alan b don't see your point the wealth is in the south east of england, not in england itself.Your argument is a verylong shot if a a shot at all that's why Scotlands and all the home nations should work hard together to achieve better things for all it citizens.
185

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 19:09:58
201, Ewan M. When are you going to grow up out of fantasyland? The days of the largesse of the Empire have gone. The UK has turned malefactor towards the constituent parts. Dog eat dog, if you like.

That you cannot see it is for you to experience and others to observe.
186

Exileskin,

Windsor UK 06/10/2008 19:43:59
what a wonderfull idea this will never happen.

Is taxation not a better way forward

Supermarket taxation whereby a levy is placed on alcohols sold in supermarkets and off licences on particular product types thus you are not telling people what to charge but you are reaping the benefits from local targetted taxation.
i.e a taxation on packaged lagers and ciders in the range of 30% on Higher alcoholic packaged lagers and ciders and a lower tax say 5% on LOW alcohol products - afterall it is all about taste is it not?
187

FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 19:55:40
Anybody fancy a pint? this is enough to drive anyone to drink, price rises would only make alcolics even more skint and desperate, and increase crime, haven't we learned anything from the drugs fiasco. Or do the politicians want to keep the hard fought for so called luxuries of life such as cars holidays and enjoyment of life for the wealthy few only?
188

pehman,

sussex 06/10/2008 20:03:48

I just heard on c4 news, Glenrothes by-election WILL be nov 6th, murphy will announce it tomorrow
189

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 20:10:10
Pehman, 205. That date is well known. For a couple of weeks here, anyway.
190

Eve,

Scotland 06/10/2008 20:37:22
#2 Charles Linskaill: Yer obvousley out of touch form that large age group!

Noone votes for or aganst a politcal party for one reason. Unless they're no thinking straight.

191

Eve,

Scotland 06/10/2008 21:01:26
Something has to be done about the amount people are drinking.

In pubs/ clubs a bar member of staff can refused to sell some one alchol if the appear to drunk.

When people buyin the form a carryout this does not happen, therefore noone points out yer drink to much and you can drink yer self uncontus, if you liked. Not healthy that!

There needs to be restrions on how much supermarkets and offlicences can sell one person on one vist.

I defently think the alchol should be limited to one area in the supermarkets and out of the way form other groserys. Think there should be a sepearte que too, making it more of a shore to buy Alcoholic drinks.


OR May be we should have alchol rashons books!!!! I heard rashon books worked well back in the 1940's. Or is that just old people remanising their youth.




192

Heed thi baw,

06/10/2008 21:59:28
By the way, where are all the SNP supporters that have been spouting forth that Scotland should be independent so that it can enjoy an economy similar to Iceland's?

Iceland's inflation is running at 14%, nearly 3 times ours and it's economy is close to bankruptcy. Small economies with their own currency clearly struggle more in uncertain economic times.
193

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 22:07:12
212 Heed thi baw, 06/10/2008 21:59:28
Small economies with their own currency clearly struggle more in uncertain economic times.

When was the last time you read a newspaper? Even the world's largest economies are struggling at the moment.

If you imagine we are in any way protected by being part of the UK then you are seriously deluded. In fact, we tend to be disadvantaged due to the fact that major economic decisions are invariably taken as if London/SE England was representative of the UK as a whole.
194

Gtj,

06/10/2008 22:19:10
Economies are collapsing all around us, the Capital system has been shown to be a farce. Families life savings and pensions are going down the tubes. Thousands upon thousands of peolpe are losing their jobs. What will we do? -

I know, lets moan about anything the SNP do to try and improve the lives of people who live in Scotand, and another thing, who's got the bottle of Buckie.
195

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 22:58:30
Good Point Heed thi baw.

Here is a quote from Salmond in 2007;

"Scotland would prosper as a small European nation. As we can see from our near neighbours in the "arc of prosperity" - Ireland to our west, Norway to our east, and Iceland to our north - independence works in the modern world. All of these nations have become independent in the last century - it is the natural state for the most successful nations".

Ireland was the first European company in recession, and Iceland is now officially bankrupt.

Salmond is a prize idiot.
196

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 23:01:06
Salmond is blowing hot air right now on newsnight.

He wants to guarantee everybodies savings in the UK.

What a hero.
197

Ewen Miler,

Amesbury 06/10/2008 23:01:15
I'm no fan of the SNP; but this seems to be another example of a party in power being unable to implement a common sense policy due to interference from Brussels and the blind adherence to existing Laws, which were not designed to apply to scenarios like this.

The Law should be: Guidance of Wise Men and the obedience of Fools!
Ad
198

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 23:05:29
I wonder what Salmond has to laugh about. He obviously finds this all very funny.

What a great First Minister.
199

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 23:09:42
I wonder if he still calls it 'The Ark of Prosperity".

No doubt he will quietly drop the comparisons with Iceland and Ireland and concentrate on the Norway comparison.

In fact he just did it on Newsnight.

How predictable was that?
200

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 23:13:26
The economy of the USA, 'Great Britain' and Germany , not to mention France Iceland, and several others including Ireland appear to be destroyed.
I'd love to know who is pulling the strings and making mega bucks out of it, because some swine or swines are.
So Rufus T what is your (clever) answer to the economic ills?
And what is your (clever) answer to drunken ,feral youth?
And what is your ( clever) answer to the general problem Scots have with alcohol?
And what was the Labour/Liberal answer to any of these when in power?
Got any answers ,clever or otherwise?
Great at criticism not so great at answers.
201

Gtj,

06/10/2008 23:14:21
The level of intelligence of some of the posts on here beggars belief.

Talk about jumping the gun or what.
202

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 23:19:08
#220 Queen D, if I do not have the answers then does that mean I cannot criticise?
203

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/10/2008 23:22:06
Salmond held up the 'Arc of Prosperity' as an example for Scotland to aim for.

One year later and the Arc is a busted flush (Salmonds favourite expression).
204

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/10/2008 23:31:38
Rufus, you sound like an old firm supporter on a Hearts thread.

Finance is on another page.
205

Electric Hermit,

06/10/2008 23:32:30
223 Rufus T. Firefly, 06/10/2008 23:22:06
Salmond held up the 'Arc of Prosperity' as an example for Scotland to aim for.

He was right then. And he's right now. Neither he nor anyone else foresaw the current situation. A situation which is not, as you seem to imagine, the end of history. In a few months economies will begin the process of recovery. Hopefully, lessons will be learned. But Scotland's aspiration to independence will no more be affected by this than by all the other economic crises that have afflicted capitalism over the past century or two.
206

Steve,

Bo'ness 07/10/2008 00:42:36
Arc of prosperity, eh.
It's not as if UK residents are trying to shift their capital into these piddly wee countries to keep their deposits safe. Like the Irish banks for example...

OH, Wait a minute!!...
207

Angleland Isover,

07/10/2008 06:33:04
Why yesterdays news? Are all the anti snp journalists on holliday.
208

Anton,

Porto Sant'Elpidio 07/10/2008 07:00:11
#92 Snowy Bottles, Norway!
Have you ever seen the hordes of Swedes "invading" Danmark on Saturdays and Sundays, especially now that there's the Oresund Bridge? I remember when there were ads all over Copenhagen saying "Help keep your town clean: help a swede to the ferry"...

Actually, it's very sad when people have to rely on booze to get their kicks instead of enjoying life's little *free* wonders...
209

TWC,

Ayrshire 07/10/2008 08:02:17
Sad that we will continue to pick young teenagers off the streets because Political point scoring is more important.
210

GM,

07/10/2008 08:04:38
is it just me or is all this yesterdays news?

Where is todays online edition?
Perhaps AM2 wasn't ready to get his comments in at 11.59pm and they've 'held the front page'?
211

Boy Wonder,

07/10/2008 08:13:50
Is today a media-free holiday???

 

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