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Overseas bank lines up to bid for HBOS



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Published Date: 01 November 2008
A FOREIGN bank is interested in buying HBOS and has approached the UK government on how to proceed, The Scotsman has learned. It has received assurances from the Treasury that any bid would be treated equally to the one on the table from Lloyds TSB.
The unnamed firm is acting through a London-based merchant banker which first put the proposal to Jim Spowart, a leading Scottish businessman who has raised concerns about the future of HBOS.

Mr Spowart, the founder of Intelligent Finance, has been in talks with Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary, about the proposal since Wednesday. Details of the possible bid emerged as the government said the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB should proceed – despite an official report indicating the deal might be bad for consumers and businesses.

Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, last night overruled concerns about the takeover raised in an Office of Fair Trading report, which also states that the deal should be referred to the Competition Commission.

Earlier this week, The Scotsman revealed there was interest in the HBOS subsidiaries Clerical Medical and Insight Investments, but it is understood the new suitor is looking at the whole group.

Last night, Mr Murphy said: "I have been contacted by a prominent Scottish businessman and he has talked about the possibility of a second bid. If there was a second, concrete bid then the government would listen."

It is understood Mr Murphy has spoken with Mr Spowart six times since the bank revealed its plans. Treasury officials are thought to have told representatives of the merchant bank that they will talk to their client "from a position of neutrality".

Competition law has been waived for the Lloyds TSB bid and a recapitalisation deal offered to the banks on the basis that the takeover will go through.

Mr Spowart said: "There's a possibility that a financial services organisation has expressed an interest in making an approach to the bank (HBOS]. This came as a result of a merchant banker approaching me and I thought, given what I learned, I should alert the government.

"We are at a very early stage. We are just checking the territory at the moment. The Secretary of State has said he would look at it on a neutral basis. That has been conveyed to the party concerned."

Shane O'Riordain, from HBOS, last night declined to comment on the proposal.

The OFT's 158-page report raised competition concerns over personal current accounts, mortgages and banking services for small and medium-sized businesses. It also cited particular worries about the Scottish market. It is significant as it is the first ruling from a government body that casts doubt on the wisdom of the deal.

However, Lord Mandelson overruled the OFT and gave the go-ahead for the takeover, saying that preserving the "stability of the financial system" outweighed any potential anti-competitive effects.

His immediate rejection of the OFT's view drew a sharp response from business people, politicians and consumer groups. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said: "The report underlines the need for this proposed merger to be subject to full and proper examination, and not rushed through against the interests of Scotland."

The deal would change the face of banking, creating a giant that will be far and away the biggest British bank, with nearly a third of the UK mortgage market, more than £300 billion in deposits and about 3,000 branches.

The OFT says the £12.2 billion tie-up between the two institutions would create a bank with control of about 33 per cent of British customers' personal bank accounts – and 40 to 50 per cent of Scottish accounts.

The OFT concluded there was a "realistic prospect" the takeover would be anti-competitive for the UK banking market.

The watchdog also said it might be preferable for HBOS to remain independent, with government assistance, then sold on to other parties whose businesses did not overlap so much. The OFT and Lord Mandelson said they had taken into account the views of the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and the Treasury – as well as other stakeholders.

Scores of other organisations, including The Scotsman, made submissions warning that the deal would be bad for consumers and small businesses.

But Lord Mandelson said: "I am satisfied the public interest is best served by allowing this merger to proceed without a reference to the Competition Commission.

"I recognise there are concerns about the possible effects of the merger on competition, as set out in the OFT's report. I am asking the Office of Fair Trading to continue to keep the relevant markets under review to protect the interests of UK consumers and the British economy."

Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, announced in September that the government would waive competition rules to allow the Lloyds TSB takeover to go through, saying it was needed to shore up the financial system.

Since then, however, the government has announced a rescue plan for UK banks that some analysts believe would allow HBOS to stay independent.

The government's decision to allow the deal was met with dismay north of the Border, where high-profile voices have warned of swingeing job cuts, irreparable damage to Scotland's economy and serious negative effects on competition.

Tavish Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said:

"This is not a done deal because shareholders have yet to see a proposal. The biggest shareholder of all, the taxpayer, is deeply concerned by job losses and the loss of the headquarters."

Alex Neil, an SNP MSP, said: "By any reading of this OFT report, there is no justification for this merger and every reason to stop it. It is outrageous that the so-called Business Secretary has allowed this merger to go ahead and totally ignored the implications for competition, both at a UK level with personal accounts and mortgages, and at a Scottish level for small and medium-sized businesses."

Mr Spowart, said the report showed the deal was "a betrayal of the consumer, a betrayal of Scottish small businesses and a betrayal of Scotland as a whole".

David Alexander, of the Edinburgh property firm DJ Alexander, said: "This merger shouldn't happen, and it is going to be one of the worst things to happen to Edinburgh and to Scotland."

Earlier, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, had said HBOS would not exist had it not been for the public bail-out.

After Lord Mandelson's decision, an OFT spokesman said: "We don't take a view of the public interest issues because issues like financial stability are beyond our remit. We respect the Secretary of State's decision."

A spokesman for HBOS said: "We welcome today's decision by the Secretary of State. It represents another major milestone for our deal with Lloyds TSB."

What the OFT report said

• "(In relation to personal current accounts (PCAs)] The merger will remove a firm, HBOS, that was (at least until less than two months ago) a major driver of competition in the market, and strengthen the current market leader, Lloyds."

• "In relation to SME banking, the OFT's concerns are focussed on Scotland and are similar to those in relation to PCAs – the increased incentive on Lloyds to enhance its margins on current customers. The OFT also cannot exclude competition concerns across Great Britain."

• "The market share estimates... indicate that the Scottish SMEs market is highly concentrated, and increase this concentration."

• "There is a realistic prospect that the merger will result in a substantial lessening of competition in (SME (small and medium enterprises)] banking services in Scotland."

• "In relation to mortgages, the OFT considers there is a realistic prospect of an SLC (substantial lessening of competition]."

• "In light of Government's recapitalisation plans... the OFT considers it is realistic to assume that any specific Government intervention and support to HBOS would have involved some level of recapitalisation."

• "The OFT believes that it is realistic to consider that HBOS would be an effective competitive force in the market place."

What Lord Mandelson said

• "I am satisfied that on balance the public interest is best served by allowing this merger to proceed without a reference to the Competition Commission.

• "I recognise that there are some concerns about the possible effects of the merger on competition, as set out in the OFT's report.

• "I am asking the Office of Fair Trading to continue to keep the relevant markets under review in order to protect the interests of UK consumers and the British economy."

Anger at £3m pay-off plan for top HBOS executives

HBOS could face a parliamentary investigation if it awards golden handshakes of almost £3 million to departing directors, it emerged yesterday.

At least five executives are expected to leave when the Scottish bank is taken over by Lloyds TSB. Their contracts entitle them to combined pay-offs of about £2.7 million.

The sums would make a mockery of the government's insistence that failure should not be rewarded. The Commons Treasury Select Committee said it would investigate if any package was not disclosed.

As reported in The Scotsman yesterday, the superbank created by Lloyds TSB and HBOS will be based in London and almost all of the board will be Lloyds staff. Only two of the Edinburgh bank's top staff have had jobs at the new institution confirmed.

Michael Fallon, deputy chairman of the Treasury select committee said the prospect of secret pay-offs was scandalous, adding: "The public have a right to know about rewards for failure. We'd expect any package to be disclosed and we have the power to require that they are."

But Shane O'Riordain of HBOS said: "Every worker, irrespective of their grade or level, has contractual entitlements."

Royal Bank of Scotland, which is being bailed out with £20 billion of taxpayers' money, has signalled it is preparing to pay bonuses to thousands of staff, it was reported last night.
Middle East trio to prop up Barclays with £7.3bn boost

THE billionaire Abu Dhabi sheikh who bought Manchester City football club two months ago was last night set to pump up to £5 billion into Barclays.

The bank yesterday unveiled Sheikh Mansour Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, a member of the emirate's royal family, as a major investor in plans to raise up to £7.3 billion to strengthen its finances.

Two other existing Middle East investors – the Qatari Investment Authority and Challenger, which represents Qatar's royal family – are also putting up more funds.

The trio could own nearly a third of the bank between them following the capital-raising exercise, with Al Nahyan's stake a potential 16.3 per cent.

The sheikh's billions helped lure Brazilian star Robinho to the Premiership football club for a British record £32.5 million in the summer.

Now Barclays hopes his wealth will help it meet the tougher capital requirements called for by the Financial Services Authority to enable banks to withstand financial turmoil.

The Middle East cash helps Barclays shore up its finances without using public funds – meaning it will be able to pay dividends to its shareholders, unlike Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland.

Chief executive John Varley said the growing presence of Middle Eastern investors reflected the "significant shift" in the availability of capital and economic power over the past five years.

The full article contains 1889 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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1

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:13:31
Great news for the Natz.

Even a Zimbabwean Bank would be better than an English one.
2

Rasco,

01/11/2008 00:15:47
Broon and co. just want to Sc... Salmond and will do anything even at the expense of Scotland.
3

Rab haw,

01/11/2008 00:21:49
The whole episode of this last few months ie share price manipulation , government interferance and government manipulation of the banks involved, especially with the proposals of a totally incompetant chancellor tryng to once AGAIN DESTROY the confidence of HIS own people, simply for THEIR own ends these parasites of the working class the LIEBORITE Totems deserve to be shown up now for the snake peddlers they are .
4

Rasco,

01/11/2008 00:21:55
According to the Times Broon is going to Middle East asking for money.
5

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 00:22:12
Good news for Scotland Rufus i think you mean!

Any foreign owned bank wold be better for Scotland than this Lloyds deal now and i hope this new deal goes ahead; anything that maintains the HQ in Edinburgh will be better than the Lloyds deal so good news.

Bad news day for Labour so before i toddle of to bed Rufus here are a couple for you:

Brown is going to the Arab stattes tomorrow to beg for money for the UK, already being called a 'bail out' as Brown simply does not have the cash and he is now facing a very very dire situation which could end up in the UK being bankrupt!

Doubts are now being raised as to how much the UK can borrow before the international money markets say no, enough is enough.

Appears that Brown and Darling knew about the Icelandic bank problem in January and have been warned since but they did nothing, Vince Cable demanding a full enquiry.

Oh and lastly seems that Jim Murphy has caused a bit of a diplomatic incident over his jumping (wrongly) on quotes fron the Norwegians (rather like you did too Rufus).
6

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:24:13
Maybe it is a Zimbabwean Bank when you think about it.

When Salmond was writing to his penfriend Robert Mugabe, maybe there Was a p.s. in the letter asking him to buy out Hbos.
7

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 00:25:53
7 Rufus#

Asked if Brown would raise the issue of human rights when he was begging for money his office stated 'a wide range of issues will be discussed'.

Seems Brown will even take blood money to save his neck, what a chump, what a disgrace and what a bleedin begger!
8

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 00:28:25
Quite remarkable to see that Germany has now the highest employment in 16 years and the UK the lowest amazing when you consider that Germany was integrating 40 million people and have managed to outstrip the UK.

What has Brown been doing for 11 years i wonder, we seem to have gone backwards..i mean southwards to beg for money!
9

Rab haw,

01/11/2008 00:31:26
When are the news media in Scotland or at least 1 truth seeking medium going to start speaking for us , and start giving us the truth on a great deal of stories that have been smothered for political reasons ie for unionist purposes
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 00:32:34



Once Again, my thoughts may prove correct, I told you all 6weeks ago Spain's Largest Bank, may make a move on HBOS, already a partner to the RBS, it would be of NO surprise atall!

If my predictions come true, I want a £1 per reader, of the,...

...Scotsman News, to honor my Predictions!

(NO Credit cards, or Cheques accepted)



11

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:32:49
Nevsky your propensity to talk drivel is only superseded by Kyle the carrots (aberdeen scot) ability to create multi signons.

Your assumption that the HQ would stay in Edinburgh is based on what exactly?
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 00:33:36






Bank of "Santander"






13

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:35:42
Nevsky, Human Rights??

Salmond, letters, Mugabe.

Go figure.
14

Rab haw,

01/11/2008 00:36:06
BROWN SHOULD BE HISTORY for the good of all in THIS country AND THE British Isles. He has always been a chancer rather than a chancellor and claimed the credit for others actions and avoided the blame for his own.
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 00:36:09
13 Rufus#

Who knows where it would be based but it seems most likely that if a foreign bank took over they would use the existing infrastructure don't you think Rufus? Too complex for you to figure out?

We know what the outcome of Lloyds will be, closed down and moved to London so anything is better than that offer, also would be nice to see Daniels having the smirk wiped off his face!
16

Shamus,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 00:40:39
1#. You are obviously a racist. What has banking and capitalism got to do with nationality.
17

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:42:56
#17 nevsky, all depends on the circumstances and of course which bank it was.

You talk about it as if its a cast iron certainty.
18

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 00:46:57
#18 Shamus are you new to this board?

The Anti English sentiment that appears on here from the Natz on a daily basis is quite disturbing.

19

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 00:56:35
21 Rufus#

Not as disturbing as the anti-Scottish sentiment posted by Scots such as yourself!
20

Shamus,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 00:59:59
21# No quite old. The Natz as you call them are consistently racist and quite stupid.
21

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 01:03:53
At least I live in Scotland Nevsky.

I am not spending my life in Russia on a computer telling the Scottish people they should be like Norwegians.

Have you seen anything of Moscow?
22

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 01:07:05
25 Rufus#

Yip see loads of it every day (in fact way too much), you would like it here the press is heavily controlled by the state, perfect for unionists!
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 01:11:53




At the end of Day, WHY-CRY,..'Spilt-Milk'!?

We as a Nation,..'Just Never Get It Right'!

The Main Point to all of this scenario is,...

If we had the,..'GUT'S', the Whole Situation of HBOS, or more the Likes of, BOS, would have Never Happened!

Just Trample, all over us, Mice only SQUEAK!
24

Edward,

01/11/2008 01:16:35
#14 Charles Linskaill
Banco Santander would be interesting if it was going after HBOS. As you said there is a bit of history between them and RBS, so there very familiar with Scottish banking
25

Guga II,

Rockall 01/11/2008 01:18:14
#25 Roofarse Blowfly/Bring Them On.

You may live in Scotland, but you are not Scottish. You should confine your colonial mentality and attitudes to newspapers where it will be appreciated, like the Guardian.

26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 01:20:25



Edward ~29,

I think it is a thought, that has merit, we wait with anticipation.


27

The_Reiver,

01/11/2008 01:31:47
Who cares who buys HBOS? Good riddance to bad rubbish. Rip-off merchants who were a DISGRACE to Scotland.

#1 nice one!
28

Edward,

01/11/2008 01:53:38
Labour will try and rush through the take over, ignoring the shareholders.Mandelson is already pushing, by ignoring the OFT questions
29

subrosa,

01/11/2008 02:08:35
I just don't understand how Mandelson is allowed to ignore the OFT's comments. Why are we paying for the OFT when politicians can just brush their comments aside?

Surely there must be a serious protest about this. We can't just stand by and watch labour messing up our finance sector.
30

,

01/11/2008 02:09:25
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31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 02:19:09


Edward ~33,

Well the "shareholders" are worth Nothing now!

Running at about now 65pence a share, from the once was, about, £9.00 per share, they are if any!, the last obstacle, in the way for HBOS, to even be taken over be the,...

..'THE BANK OF FAIRIES'!
32

,

01/11/2008 02:25:02
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33

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 01/11/2008 02:36:25
honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of our Yankee Banks, JP Morgan Chase or Bank of America. Those two have already taken on several of our banks at Dubya's insistence, and since Broon is his lapdog, I wouldn't be surprised if they do the same there, especially since both have trading offices in London.

What's worse to you: HBOS being owned by the English, or owned by us Yankees?

(meant as a joke, as I love my fellow yankees and English and Scots women)
34

,

01/11/2008 03:01:49
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35

,

01/11/2008 03:02:09
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36

,

01/11/2008 03:12:14
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37

An Beal Bacht,

01/11/2008 03:14:45
Good thread.
38

An Beal Bacht,

01/11/2008 03:14:46
Good thread.
39

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 03:26:59



Traquir , Alba ~40,

"It is about time we put Scotland's interest
first and foremost"

Whilst we all know this, it NEVER comes to,..'Fruition',

All to Willing to help Others, but NOT Ourselves!, History tells this!

And not helped with people like the ones that we elected, thinking they would make Scotland,..
...'A-Better-Place',...

'Self Grandeur' rather than, 'Self Scotland'!,...

'Speaks Mountains'!
40

,

01/11/2008 03:42:30
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41

,

01/11/2008 03:47:22
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42

,

01/11/2008 03:50:12
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43

nolimits,

BC Interior 01/11/2008 04:02:43
You know.....or maybe you don't, that it is possible to start a banking institution from scratch. This, my friends of the post, is a golden opportunity for Scots to have their own bank. Just an outline here, but if all Scottish savings holders withdrew their cash from HBOS and any other institution south of the border and deposited in a brand new Scottish bank, it would seem to me that a viable institution would be going in no time. Kinda like our credit unions over here in Canada. Locally owned and operated under very strict guidelines. Hey, its an idea.
44

,

01/11/2008 04:07:54
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45

,

01/11/2008 04:11:24
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46

donald,

glasgow 01/11/2008 04:41:31
Darling will no more listen to Salmond than Mandelson, Murphy and Llyods done deal. Yes aliens from outer space could not have less consideration for Scotland than the present set up, Labour included.

Lloyds was allowed to steal the TSB, as surely as Halifax was allowed to steal the Bof S and Midland to steal the Clydesdale Bank. Broon opposed a Scottish merger between RBS and BoS for the same reason he proposed a merger between the Scotsman and the Herald. Though he needn't have worried about their loyalty to his beloved London rule.
47

,

01/11/2008 06:17:34
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48

Bibamus,

01/11/2008 06:27:59
Maybe it is a Lithuanian Bank that is interested. That could be the Heart of the matter
49

Bibamus,

01/11/2008 06:28:07
Maybe it is a Lithuanian Bank that is interested. That could be the Heart of the matter
50

Mikey,

01/11/2008 07:45:36
Good point, sm, good point.

Won't be answered by our resident racist trolls though. I guess the Laird o Freedonia and his ilk are too busy dreaming up some more racist, anti Scottish garbage to post!
51

,

01/11/2008 08:00:41
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52

Aye Right...,

01/11/2008 08:10:45
#54 Bibamus

I'm with you there - Ukio bankas yo buy out HBoS with that nob Romanov at the helm.
53

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 08:22:32
12 Charles Linskaill
What a surprise, are we expecting a Spanish Aquisition then?
54

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 08:25:23
48 nolimits
You see, the old problem: too wee, too poor, too stupid, eh?
55

John S,

01/11/2008 08:38:39
#48 nolimits, good idea.
#50 Traquir , Alba. .......and of course ensure there are no British mechanisms put in place to stop such a good idea succeeding.

We have the Airdrie Savings Bank.The Bank which has no shareholders. It does not require to pay dividends and any surpluses are available for reinvestment for the benefit of customers.

Also the Dunfermline Building Society.The Society is a mutual organisation and as such, exists to serve the needs of members without the necessity to satisfy shareholders. Profits made are sufficient only to provide for the costs of the business.
56

james 1st,

hamilton nz 01/11/2008 08:43:01
any english bankl will move all head office functions to london therefore it is preferable that a bank from another country is allowed to purchasr hbos. that is not anti english it is pro the liklihood of keeping head office functions in scotland.
it has always appeared to be the desire of the westminster government to keep as many head offices as possible in london and the southeast of england much to the detriment of all other parts os the country, including but not limited to scotland
57

bluehead,

edinburgh 01/11/2008 08:43:10
the sight of the dracula figure of mandelson is giving people the creeps,the whole idea is scandalous to allow such a take over,the less the english have to do with a Scottish intuition the better it would be,there is little doubt that that brown and his mob are trying to undermine the SNP because they know that the labour lot are on the way out
58

Corstorphinery,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 08:45:04
Why all the secrecy about the identity of the new suitor? Under stock exchange rules shouldn't this be disclosed?

Makes me think this is not a serious bid and more posturing by the Scotsman and other anti-merger interests.

I notice this new bid has not been reported by any other news agency. Not often the Scotsman has such a scoop eh? That is, if it has any substance at all.....
59

Fairfax,

01/11/2008 08:47:03
nolimits (48): "but if all Scottish savings holders withdrew their cash from HBOS and any other institution south of the border"

An excellent idea. For symmetry, all English depositors should remove their deposits and business from HBOS, RBS (including its subsidiary NatWest) and all other Scottish financial services.

livilion (52): "You see, the old problem: too wee, too poor, too stupid, eh?"

Yes, it's very sad. It's time for Scots to stand up for themselves: it's Scotland's Oil and Scotland's Banks which have accumulated the majority of their egregious debt. Let HBOS and RBS remain in Scotland, but let their £0.2 trillion costs be those of a newly independent Scotland, together with their share of UK national debt. England can follow 48's advice and withdraw their business from Scotland's financial services: this would help English banks such as Lloyds, currently being pressured into the disastrous HBOS takeover.
60

Calum10,

01/11/2008 08:48:16
The arguement being put forward by Labour is this:

For the Unions to be saved Scotland must be kept small, poor and stupid.

If that means destroying thousands of Scotish jobs so be it.

If that means destroying small Scottish businesses so be it.

If that means making Scotland uncompetitive so be it.

If that means turning Scotland into the poor man of Europe so be it.

Labour is attacking Scotland. It is destroying hopes, aspirations and ambitions. Once more another generation of Scots will begin to realise that in order to be successfull you first must leave the country of your birth.

Scotland does not need enemies when it has the Labour party.



61

bonhommedubois,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 08:48:28
Lots of jumping to assumptions.

What if the 'foreign bank' only just came onto the scene?
What if the 'foreign bank' sounded out Spowart and through Spowart Labour was sounded out?
And what if Labour thought - this is a better deal - but it is up to the shareholders? But we are happy with this 'foreign bank'.
But there's long way between talks and a 'deal' - so Lloyds needs to be kept on the back burner?
What if a foreign bank (Spanish? US?) did eventually do the deal - and Scotland got an HQ - and jobs were saved and all businesses in Scotland were better off?

Who would take the credit?
And how would everyone feel?

Great news if it is true. I think 50,000 -100,000 jobs in Scotland will go if the Lloyds deal goes through.
62

Fairfax,

01/11/2008 08:53:58
Corstophinery (64): "Why all the secrecy about the identity of the new suitor? Under stock exchange rules shouldn't this be disclosed?"

As I understand it, public disclosure is only required once the Board of one corporation has submitted a formal bid to the second corporation's Board. Confidentiality is typically
maintained before this stage. In any case, given HBOS's £100 billion plus credit crunch legacy debt, and tens of billions capital injection, its new majority shareholder will almost certainly be English taxpayers in practice.
63

,

01/11/2008 08:57:29
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64

bonhommedubois,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 09:01:35
Looks to me like this has been leaked to The Scotsman. +68 is right, unless a formal bid is made this is just talk.

I'm not sure one should automatically assume the Government will still have to put in cash - what if this suitor has the liquidity to take over the lot? That would save Broon £15 billion or whatever.
65

,

01/11/2008 09:05:04
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66

School Inspector,

01/11/2008 09:09:07
Oh dear, is being run as an outpost of a Middle East / Far East bank worse than being run as an outpost of an English one. This xenophobic paranoia is one of the reasons why Scotland will remain a lovely place to live but a terrible place to make any money.
67

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 09:16:49
On the 5th instead of putting a Guy on the bonfire how about a Brown, a Darling, a Mandelson or a Murphy.
68

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 09:23:41
65 Fairfax
>>it's Scotland's Oil and Scotland's Banks which have accumulated the majority of their(?) egregious debt.<<

So what kind of debt did eg Nothern Rock, Bradford and Bingly, Lloyds TSB or HM Treasury have?

Curious that HBoS was being given a clean bill of health right up until the credit crisis and hedgefund managers started creaming the system.

Could a case not be made for suggesting that BoS was doing fine until throwing in it's lot with Halifax, another Union Dividend perhaps?
69

,

01/11/2008 09:26:54
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bonhommedubois,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 09:31:02
*74 - Agreed. But let's assume they could. It has to be better than the Lloyds deal - if the foreign bank had no UK base/branch network then it would be ideal for Scottish jobs?
71

,

01/11/2008 09:31:56
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72

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 09:32:30
#72 School Inspector
You missed the Scottish Govt's mission to Quatar for financing of Scottish transport infrastructure work then, and the Unionist reaction to it?

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-targets-Qatar-for-cash.4535661.jp
73

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 09:33:27
11: Rab haw
Very good comment.
71: The posters here who are doing this are interested only in diverting attention away from the story onto their orgy of 'Scotland as basket case' drivel - which is totally consistent with the unionist message to me. at least that's what I understand by union dividend.
77: Perhaps a 'don't you dare or see what you'll get'.
74

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 09:37:13
68:
There's no such thing as an English taxpayer, yet. For that there would have to be such a thing as a Scottish taxpayer. So at the moment there are UK taxpayers and UK budgets.
Give us our money and we'll show you who's the basket case.
75

Mcsnagpile,

01/11/2008 09:38:14
To get to the New HBOS Bank of Turkey take the No 6 Carpet up the Mound,
76

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 09:39:43
82:
Well, in theory the government of a country could take a significant shareholding in key industries in the public interest. We are all moving back in that direction anyway.
77

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 09:42:29
79 sm 7531/2,
Maybe to save Gordon Brown from getting egg on his face as he was the prime mover in getting the aquisition done.

Let's call this deal what it is, Lloyds TSB are in a hostile take over of HBoS, who will then be consigned to the dustbin with Lloyds HMG the principle beneficiaries.

When the markets stabilise, and share prices again rise, HMGovt will flogg off its shares to whoever wants them.

Bank of Scotland and its employees will remain only an entry in Wikipedia, and the HO on the Mound converted to hotel and conference facilities.
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01/11/2008 09:44:28
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The Strategist,

01/11/2008 09:46:02
I've taken all my cash out of my bank and put it in a Scottish mutually owned building society.

What I would like to see now is that building society get together with other mutuals in Scotland such as the Airdrie Savings Bank and create a new entity which could be capitalised effectively by the City and Shire councils.

HBOS and RBS should be allowed to wither on the vine. They are part of the "City establishment" and haven't been an integral part of the Scottish economy for a long time.
80

TWC,

Ayrshire 01/11/2008 09:49:08
Yup the answer is move your money from HBoS if the take over goes ahead
81

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 09:49:49
#88 The Strategist

You mean like the Trustees Savings Bank of Glasgow I kept my pocket money in as a kid?
Whatever happened to it?
82

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 09:57:01
87 sm 7531/2
Question is; who gets to keep Scottish Power's profits on the £5.4bn revenue they turn over every year and how much of this directly benefits their consumers in Scotland?
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01/11/2008 10:13:40
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 10:19:17
Hyenas squabbling over a carcass. The carcass being the Scottish Financial services industry. I very much doubt if there is any foreign buyer. This smells like a tactical move by the anti-takeover brigade. Be careful lads. If the gov withdraws support BOS ceases to exist at all.
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01/11/2008 10:23:24
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 10:26:45
51 donald,glasgow 01/11/2008 04:41:31

"Lloyds was allowed to steal the TSB, as surely as Halifax was allowed to steal the Bof S and Midland to steal the Clydesdale Bank."

EH?

So RBS stole Natwest from the English?

RBS also stole Citizens bank from the Americans?

Then RBS also stole ABN Amro from the Dutch??

Or does stealing only take place when an English bank takes over a Scottish one?
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 10:30:25
93 Martyk,01/11/2008 10:19:17

Its a very valid point you make.

Another bid would appear to be unlikely and the very high possibility still exists of HBOS going under if the Government withdrew its funding.

Alex Salmond knows that and that is why he is being strangely quiet on the subject.

Mind you that clown Alex Neil wont be happy until Hbos goes under.
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01/11/2008 10:37:25
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gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 10:47:28
Perhaps I have totally misunderstood the situation re the troubles of the 2 Scottish banks but could somebody answer the following question.

If HBOS could only be saved by being taken over why is this not also the case with RBS?
90

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 10:47:32
97 sm 7531/2,01/11/2008 10:37:25

"Remind us all again who it was who lifted the competition legislation which allowed the speculators to manipulate the HBOS share price?"

What you on about now?

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The Answer,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 10:55:23
"66 Calum10,01/11/2008 08:48:16
The arguement being put forward by Labour is this:

For the Unions to be saved Scotland must be kept small, poor and stupid.

If that means destroying thousands of Scotish jobs so be it.

If that means destroying small Scottish businesses so be it.

If that means making Scotland uncompetitive so be it.

If that means turning Scotland into the poor man of Europe so be it.

Labour is attacking Scotland. It is destroying hopes, aspirations and ambitions. Once more another generation of Scots will begin to realise that in order to be successfull you first must leave the country of your birth.

Scotland does not need enemies when it has the Labour party."

1 Correct scotland is small , poor and stupid.

2 What jobs ? are you talking about 1 in 4 jobs being public sector!

3 Small and nothing else.

4 Uncompetitive (hence the need of English tax)

5 You are the poor man of europe

I would rather hand over my tax to a muslim fanatic then see it being given to the lazy scotch..
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 10:55:24
100 Indeed I do, but your post does not make sense.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 10:57:55
"102 JayDeeTee,01/11/2008 10:54:41
So the headquarters may not be situated in Londion after all, but somewhere abroad? This is quite amusing. All you Onionists must be sick at that thought."

Yes that would be bad news for the UK.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 11:01:04
97 sm 7531/2,01/11/2008 10:37:25

"Remind us all again who it was who lifted the competition legislation which allowed the speculators to manipulate the HBOS share price?"

I will make it simple for you.

When did the Hbos share price start to be manipulated?

and

When when was the competition legislation lifted?
97

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 11:02:35
96 RT Firefly
'That clown' hit the nail on the head when he said that Darling and Brown's signatures will be on the P45s of thousands of HBOS employees made redundant. That's the truth.
And by the way, Alex Neil is very far from being a clown, I think everyone knows that.
Now George Foulkes on the other hand is a clown.
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livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 11:02:45
95 Rufus T. Firefly
The 'Trustees' Savings Bank was run by trustees on behalf of its depositors. It was not the trustees' bank to sell.
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noswod,

Honestas 01/11/2008 11:03:25
Could be the Chinese or Auzzies. A less worse solution than Lloyds as it will take them longer to suck the heart out of HBOS giving us more time to adjust to a zero bank economy. Worst case Russians, Arabs or Hedge funders/Yanks buy cheap, rip off and then sell out. Broon doesay care off to see the Arabs to seal deal with them buying 35% of Barclays, at $60 a barrell they dont have any money tae bail oot Britain. One day selling the Scots Bank to the English the next day selling the English Bank to the Arabs, theres nothing left to sell, thats 11 years of labour for you.
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Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 11:06:21
103
Have to agree with Calum. The Answer, I think you are the answer, or at least the advert.
We will be ALOT better off outside the union, and you'll be happy too.
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01/11/2008 11:09:04
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Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 11:10:07
sm7531/2 - good post.
The other interesting thing is that Darling and mandelson are obviously not fully in agreement about this, at least I sense that they are firghtened for their seats, whcih Mandelson doesn't have to be as he now has a permanent one.
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livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 11:10:08
103 The Answer,Glasgow
I take it then you are also in favour of Scottish independence from Whitehall?

You make a good case for it.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 11:16:42
#108 Livilion

The 1985 TSB Act opened the way for the group to restructure in preparation for its stock market flotation in 1986.

Once it was a PLC it was at the mercy of any company that wanted to take it over.
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livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 11:18:27
An American decided to write a book about famous churches around the world.

He bought a plane ticket and took a trip to Orlando , thinking that he would start by working his way across the USA from South to North .

On his first day he was inside a church taking photographs when he noticed a golden telephone mounted on the wall with a sign that read '$10,000 per call' .


The American, being intrigued, asked a priest who was strolling by what the telephone was used for .
The priest replied that it was a direct line to heaven and that for $10,000 you could talk to God .

The American thanked the priest and went along his way .

Next stop was in Atlanta . There, at a very large cathedral, he saw the same looking golden telephone with the same sign under it.

He wondered if this was the same kind of telephone he saw in Orlando and he asked a nearby nun what its purpose was .

She told him that it was a direct line to heaven and that for $10,000 he could talk to God .

'O.K., thank you,' said the American .

He then travelled all across America , Africa, England , Japan , New Zealand . In every church he saw the same looking golden telephone with the same '$US10,000 per call' sign under it. .

The American decided to travel to Scotland to see if Scots had the same phone .

He arrived in Scotland and again, in the first church he entered, there was the same looking golden telephone, but this time the sign under it read '40 pence per call.'

The American was surprised so he asked the priest about the sign .

'Father, I've travelled all over the world and I've seen this same golden telephone in many churches . I'm told that it is a direct line to Heaven, but in all of them price was $10,000 per call . Why is it so cheap here?'

The priest smiled and answered, 'You're in Scotland now, son - it's a local call' .
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 11:18:33
110 I am looking for your answer to this question which you so far have avoided.


When did the Hbos share price start to be manipulated?
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livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 11:24:01
115 Rufus T. Firefly
Ah 1985, The Miners' Strike and Thatcherism in the full flush of power.

When Gordon Brown was a socialist, supported CND, and Whitehall could flogg off anything it wanted, in the name of Free Market Forces.
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01/11/2008 11:30:59
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01/11/2008 11:35:52
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The Answer,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 11:36:40
Scottish Fantazy

Whisky revenue of billions sent to westminister to bail out the poor English.


Fact

£46 million of whisky duty sent to Westminister

http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bullspirits

OR

tinyurl.com/48gec2

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01/11/2008 11:40:16
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01/11/2008 11:45:53
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 11:46:53
From the Guardian on Friday and an interview with Voctor Bland (a close personl friend of Brown's. Just how was the buyout agreed between friends and the competition rules dealt with?

'Blank attended a dinner where Brown was also a guest. The PM brought up the subject. "He said, 'if you think you want to advance on this, we will deal with the competition issues'," Blank recalls.

Assault

It was a crucial moment. Daniels was also at the dinner'


HBOS sold over dinner between friends!
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01/11/2008 11:46:59
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ka,

www.kenny.aitchison.typepad.com 01/11/2008 11:59:08
Let's not all panic. We don't even know yet if it really is UKIO Bankas.
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Publius,

Girvan 01/11/2008 12:05:52
"Mr Spowart, the founder of Intelligent Finance, has been in talks with Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary, about the proposal since Wednesday. Details of the possible bid emerged..."

No they haven't. There are no details in this article.

Mr Spowart should put the money up or shut up.
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Oldwrinkly,

England 01/11/2008 12:07:43
I am an Englishman and LLoyds TSB shareholder.

(I will pause for a moment for the abuse to pass.)

I love Scotland and have spent many happy holidays there, but I remain baffled as to why so many Scots allow Brown and Labour to use their country as political toilet paper.

Maybe someone can enlighten me.

However, back to the Hbos story.
Search as I may, I can find no report at all of this in any of the "English" press.

I cannot help wondering if this is not just another "red herring" thrown to the Scottish electorate to stop them from thinking too hard about Labour's abysmal record in Scotland.

It would be typical of the contempt shown by Brown to both your country and mine.
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Publius,

Girvan 01/11/2008 12:08:34
#121 The Answer

What was the question?

In case you didn't know the Engish drink whisky too. Most of your 46 million will have been excise duty collected from the English in England.
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subrosa,

01/11/2008 12:19:06
# 128

You echo the sentiments of my English friends. I don't understand it either. It's my opinion that any other country would have their people out on the streets protesting. What's wrong with us? Have we had too many years of being debased and no energy left?
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 12:31:28
My money is on The Bank of Nova-Scotia "Scotiabank" being the foreign partner.

It's a good Scottish sound name (funnily enough) and the Headquarters are in Halifax!

As to the current issues... The faults are all close to home. BoS should never have allowed Glaswegians to work in senior roles in Edinburgh
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01/11/2008 12:33:34
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 12:38:53
132

That's really interesting.

So when the whisky is exported the country that it is sold to can add no further duties?
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01/11/2008 12:40:06
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 12:42:22
134

Surely the amount that is added by the importing country will affect the volumes purchased thus affecting exports from Scotland.
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01/11/2008 12:51:40
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TWC,

Ayrshire 01/11/2008 12:53:24
127 Publius,Girvan 01/11/2008 12:05:52

"Mr Spowart should put the money up or shut up".


He said on Radio this Morning that he will release details in a week, but confirmed it was a REAL proposal and may not need any public money.
Big Gordo will be sick
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01/11/2008 12:53:38
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 12:53:39
131; its called Nova Scotia as a sop to the many thousands of Scots dumped there at the time of the Highland Clearances. On the " foreign bidder" for HBOS. Presumably the gov would still have to come up with many billions for any foreign bidder to take HBOS on. The UK Gov handing over billions of British taxpayers pounds so a foreign bank could take over a British one? Makes no sense to me.
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01/11/2008 12:53:58
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 12:57:22
137

Wow. £48Million. That's enough to buy 6 new trains to run between Edinburgh & Weegieland, to upgrade a motorway junction or build several hundred metres of tram lines.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 12:57:25
139 sm#

Treausury predicts that Scottish whisky will run out in 30 years anyway.

140 Martyk#

Nope, Spowat has already stated that the bank interested in HBOS would not need any UK funding.

141 obligor#

Why should any come out and place themselves at the mercy of the markets unless concrete proposals are in place?
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Edwardg,

01/11/2008 12:57:35
Personally I wouldn't be surprised if its one of the State owned Russian banks.Putin has already said that the Russian State would consider acquisitions abroad through one of its banks. A Japanese bank is another option. Of course Santander could bid, but they would have the same problems that are faced by Lloyds i.e. competition issues. BNP Parisbas has just bought Fortis. All the other French banks and Deutsche Bank could probably afford to bid. The Italian banks are also an option.

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Martyk,

01/11/2008 12:58:10
138; folk dont seem to understand that HBOS is bankrupt. Without public money there would be no HBOS as of 4 weeks ago. Any foreign bank taking it over would at least want to dump the toxic assets on the taxpayer. This so called foreign bid " story" stinks. Something very wrong here.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 12:58:52
I wonder of Brown on his begging trip to the oil rich countries will be telling them that they can't base their economies on that volatile commodity oil?
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 13:00:35
Nevsky; He said " may not need public money".
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 13:00:45
145 Martyk#

Nonsense you forget LLoyds need cash too, are tey bankrupt? No bank is bankrupt as they have the assets in place and was a well capitalised bank (stil is, as stated by FSA).
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 13:01:59
147 Martyk#

Nope he said on radio 4 that the bankinvolved would not need the UK money, it could afford to provide what funds were needed.
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 13:08:19
150

I'm pretty confident that there isn't much in the way of a *whiskey* industry in Scotland. The *whisky* industry on the other hand employs a fair few people in my home country. On the rare occasions that I choose to drink my whisky of choice would be Glenkinchie.
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01/11/2008 13:09:55
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 13:11:35
Nevsky . If HBOS is a going concern then why is it in need of rescue? Whether gov , foreign or Lloyds. It is only a going concern because it has public money support. Without that support it would cease to exist. I dont really understand your viewpoint. HBOS and probably RBS would both have collapsed last month without gov backing. I cannot see any way you can disput this. If I can only pay my bills because my neighbour gives me the money does that make me solvent?
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 13:12:12
153 sm#

Miss Marple franchise and Pimms?
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 13:12:39
£46 million doesnt sound much in the context of gov finances? Sure you have the right number?
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 13:16:41
154 Martyk#

This is not a problem with the banks this is a problem with cashflow and what is percieved as bad debt. Lloyds need cash as well so do Barclay's but that is a very different thing from being bankrupt.

Don't see why you are agianst Spowat bid if it retains more jobs and an HQ in Scotland; care to explain?

The bid could not in all honesty be any worse that the Lloyds bid!
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Rob,

01/11/2008 13:21:54
Ho ho ho - what a laugh. A big Scottie merchant banker thinks he has a few Euro pals who'll stump up for HBOS. Dream on pal.

Some of the ensuing whisky debate is pretty good too! So the Treasury think we'll run out do they? Wow - that really is a dumb forecast. The issue for scotch right now is whether they will have enough 12 year old whisky available over the next few years to meet the demand from China, the Far East and India - where they don't drink the short aged stuff we drink here with lemonade. Stocks are being laid down but it's a dicey business forecasting demand 12 + years hence - and that's exactly what the whisky companies (nearly all of which are "foreign" owned) have to do. The value is not what the Treasury takes in duty and VAT at around £8-9 per bottle - it's the £2 billion conrtribution it makes to GDP. Vodka sales are greater than Scotch in the UK - a lot of that's produced in Scotland right now, but in an independent Scotland I guarantee you that it won't be!!!
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 13:23:05
152

Sorry, was off enjoying lunch. Can't spend all day on the computer.

£48m isn't a lot of money. It's approximately the annual profit of the Sainsbury department store in Oxford street. Or a quarter of the annual profit of Primark.

Closer to home, Jenners business in Edinburgh was sold for £46m a few years back. The building intself was valued at £37m
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Stephanie-Jane,

London 01/11/2008 13:42:14
Scotland should be brave and vote for independence.

Good luck
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01/11/2008 13:44:05
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01/11/2008 13:44:29
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Stephanie-Jane,

01/11/2008 13:47:56
Oh, and I sincerely wish we had a leader like Alex Salmond, instead of that awful Gordon Brown. No disrespect, I know he is a Scot but I do not trust the man.

Salmond seems passionate, honest and stands up for the Scots. More to the point, he is positive and ambitious.
He paints a bright future and believes wholeheartedly in it.

I wish we had someone like that here in England.

Again, good luck.
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Stephanie-Jane,

London 01/11/2008 13:51:38
Why is the Scottish press so against Salmond?

Surely they should support someone that is so pro-Scotland?

Strange.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 14:07:48
175 sm753#

Fail to see what is funny if it protects Scottish jobs and infrastructure.

Any deal other than that proposed by Lloyds would seem to be a better option; personally i would prefer Spowat rather than the arrogant slime-ball Daniels any day.

Why do you say 'dream on'? Are you a director of any European bank; perhaps you know something they don't..personally that is more ho ho ho than anything!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 01/11/2008 14:13:55
175 sm753#

What is ho ho ho is listening to Brown yesterday saying oil is a volatile commodity and that he would fight for every vote in Glenrothes then jumping on a plane to beg for cash from oil rich economies..now that IS ho ho ho.
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TWC,

Ayrshire 01/11/2008 14:33:26
#164 Rob,01/11/2008

People who write laughter are brainless and can seldom have any positive ideas.
There have been a lot of them this week especially when they thought Labour were making a come back but they've petered out again.
Losers
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01/11/2008 14:41:27
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livilion,

livingston 01/11/2008 14:42:18
#154 Martyk

HBoS' business is doing fine, the problem is its share value has been attacked.

In words of few sylables:if you live in a house that the money lenders consider valuable you can borrow against equity, if your neighbourhood should become undesirable and the value of that house crashes, all else remaining the same, you lose your equity and get no loan.

If your business is buying and selling money, and other banks become suspicious of your paper worth then it becomes impossible to trade. Hence the govt intervention.

If the PM briefs the BBC and the popular media that he himself is clearing away laws preventing a hostile takeover of your business, how long do you imagine you might continue trading after hedgefund opportunists get their claws into you?
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subrosa,

01/11/2008 15:39:23
Mr Spowart was on radio earlier saying he was disappointed this has gone public because it puts pressure on the people concerned on his side. But he stated, it is a very serious attempt to ensure HBOS is kept independent. His associates were not mentioned obviously.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:03:13
Whatever happens in the world, Salmond will find some way of spinning it as all the fault of the evil union, and tell us how much better we'd have faired in an independent Scotland.

Much like Irish Republicans it is alway the fault of 'the brits', and this explanation will be stretched and distorted to cover just about everything.

The ideology takes precedence everytime and facts will be ignored or twisted to fit the ideology. In reality he has no idea, and the fact he argues that in every single incidence Scotland would be better off alone shows he's at it.

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Fairfax,

01/11/2008 16:05:18
Livilion (75): "So what kind of debt did eg Nothern Rock, Bradford and Bingly, Lloyds TSB or HM Treasury have?"

B&B and NR have much less debt than HBOS, as does Lloyds. HM Treasury is not a bank, but a department of the UK government.

"Curious that HBoS was being given a clean bill of health right up until the credit crisis and hedgefund managers started creaming the system."

It would indeed be curious were that correct. In fact, the HBOS shareprice has decreased by roughly £2 per quarter since Autumn 2007: its wholesale legacy debt was no secret. The hedgefund managers merely moved in for the kill in its last weeks, following the panic induced by Lehmans' death.

"Could a case not be made for suggesting that BoS was doing fine until throwing in it's lot with Halifax, another Union Dividend perhaps?"

Hmm. So when HBOS is doing badly, then it's a British bank whose faults lie with its English components, whilst when it's being subsumed by Lloyds it's a tragedy for Scotland. I support Scottish independence, as you know, and one of the requirements of independence for Scotland is to take responsibility -- it's time for the obsession with England, together with some of the sillier Scottish conspiracy theories, to be put to sleep. In fact BoS, even before the Halifax merger, was not merely a staid corporate bank: the excesses of HBOS are consistent both with BoS and post-demutualized Halifax.
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Niall,

Fraserburgh 01/11/2008 16:09:33
178.

Your Comment about Alex Salmond : "I remember when the Fat One first rolled onto the screen years ago. The hair on the back of my neck stood up and I instantly found myself thinking of phrases like "secondhand car dealer" and "snake-oil salesman"."

You know that was exactly what I felt the first time I saw and heard Tony Blair on T.V. Sure enough my instincts were proved to be correct... Illegal wars, pile of sleaze and corruption and lies innumerable.

'S Mise
Niall ban
176

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:11:41
Salmond is an opportunist, and a flim flam merchant with no idea how an independent Scotland would pay for itself or regain its dynamic nature and escape its recent flirtation with dependency on the State.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:16:41
SNP is accused after 'doctoring' flag image

THE SNP has come under fire for digitally altering a photograph on a Scottish tourism website to show a Saltire rather than a Union Flag.

A photograph on the Scottish Government's Homecoming Scotland website of the British flag flying at Edinburgh Castle was reportedly changed to show a Saltire in its place.

Royal British Legion Scotland described the move as an "insult" to war heroes.

Spokesman Neil Griffiths said: "We take the strongest exception to this. It is absolutely wrong.

"This is extremely offensive to the thousands of men and women who have served under the Union Flag."

Mr Griffiths also accused the SNP of using taxpayer's money to promote its own political agenda on the publicly-funded website.

Yes this is the SNP at its best.
178

Fairfax,

01/11/2008 16:19:18
Livilion (183): "HBoS' business is doing fine, the problem is its share value has been attacked."

With respect, you have misunderstood the central problem of Credit Crunch itself. HBOS is not doing fine at all, but must refinance some £100 billion of debt. HBOS, like all the former building societies, had predicated an enormous expansion in lending on the availability of inexpensive liquid credit in the wholesale markets: they were borrowing short (i.e. over relatively short periods of time, such as one year) to lend long (over the decades of a mortgage's life). Once banks ceased to believe their own risk estimates, the wholesale market effectively ceased to exist in any practical form. It was then only a matter of time until the need to refinance borrowings led to financial disaster. For the most egregious mortgage provider, N&R, which had funded almost 2/3 of its mortgages via the wholesale markets, death came quickly. For HBOS, death has been more prolonged, but it will come. Its future is part- or full-nationalization, contraction and, sadly, loss of jobs. This will occur whether the Lloyds takeover proceeds or not.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:20:19
And from http://www.forscotland.com/

Its a gauling sight to see the " Union Jack " flying over Edinburgh Castle. Its Scotlands capital, and this flag symbolises the continuing dominance and interference that London enforces on Scotland.

Ha Ha Ha

What a bunch of losers.

These are the over-riding most important things for the Natz.
180

TWC,

Ayrshire 01/11/2008 16:22:18
Rufus T. Firefly, Niall,
At least Alex Salmond has policies which are good for Scotland. Tell me some new Labour policies that are good for Scotland.
BTW I'm bnot a Nat, I just want a Socialist Scotland with Full Fiscal Independence.
181

Central Station,

01/11/2008 16:26:37
No doubt this "European" bidder will still be looking for the British tax payer billions and further guarantees.

Only here could we contemplate government intervention and handing control to a foreign company.

Makes my blood boil!!!
182

Martyk,

01/11/2008 16:28:26
Nevsky; I am not against the Spowart "bid". Hard to be against something that doesnt actually exist ! Over 80% of the gov bailout money is heading to Scotlands 2 banks. This indicates to me something fundamentally wrong with Edinburghs banking methodology. Do you agree with the statement that without gov support both HBOS and probably RBS would have collapsed last month? If you dont agree with that statement then you dont understand what has happened.
183

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:28:37
"You’d think that after the rather petty spat over flying the Saltire or the Union flag on public buildings in Scotland that things couldn’t degenerate any further. Well they just have. MSP Christine Grahame, that model of restraint and balanced thinking has waded into the argument by suggesting that if the Saltire is not flown higher than the Union Jack at Edinburgh Castle and the “British Army is not prepared to reconsider its position then I think the time will have come to review its tenancy arrangements."

She brings shame on not just her party, but also on the whole notion of what government is about. It is not about futile gestures designed to make us feel like a nation. It is not to pretend that the “British Army” is an army of occupation, neither is it about trying to turn people in Scotland against the idea of the Union by through childish arguments.

She claims to have discovered that ownership of Edinburgh castle was transferred to Historic Scotland at devolution, making the Scottish Executive responsible for the flagstaffs. Has this prime example of a Numpty got nothing better to do? Why do we have to throw money away on those such as Ms. Grahame?"

You see the SNP care about the really important issues. Flags, bones and chessmen.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:32:11
194 TWC I am not a labour supporter.
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 16:38:04
Livillion; Utter rubbish. You have no idea what you are talking about. In words of few syllables or not. Fairfax; Thank you for saving me the trouble of pulling up Livillions post.
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01/11/2008 16:40:55
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01/11/2008 16:41:35
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:42:34
The Arc of Prosperity is now the Arc of Poverty.

It is so bad in Iceland that they now have a food shortage.

In Ireland, a country with a GDP of 190 Billion Euros, a national debt of 45 Billion Euros, has guaranteed bank liabilities of 400 Euros. Lets hope all the savers dont withdraw at once.

And the Norwegian Foreign Minister has told Alex Salmond he is talking Nonsense.

Independence is a busted flush and is further away than ever.



190

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 16:45:21
"200 Traquir, Verbal diarrhoa,"

You are the one person on this website that needs to learn thats its not quantity over quality.

The word 'Brevity' does not exist in your dictionary, does it?
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01/11/2008 16:46:30
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01/11/2008 16:52:11
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 17:02:56
Nevsky; I am not against the Spowart "bid". Hard to be against something that doesnt actually exist ! Over 80% of the gov bailout money is heading to Scotlands 2 banks. This indicates to me something fundamentally wrong with Edinburghs banking methodology. Do you agree with the statement that without gov support both HBOS and probably RBS would have collapsed last month? If you dont agree with that statement then you dont understand what has happened.
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01/11/2008 17:03:26
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01/11/2008 17:03:34
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 17:13:03
If you look at it all dispassionately then the two countries in Europe whose banking sectors have been destroyed by the current problems are Iceland and Scotland. Iceland is a very small non-EU nation who had no one to call on for help. Scotland is a small nation part of a union with a vastly wealthier neighbour. Both nations banks tried to expand away from their tiny home bases by borrowing to finance wild expansion. Both nations banks came unstuck big time. Posters like Livillion and Nevsky are still immersed in a fantasy that the two Scots banks are basically OK and were somehow unlucky to go bust. They werent. They were foolish. During the coming week both HBOS and RBS announce their trading results. These are going to be horrific. To me HBOS is already gone. It actually probably should have been allowed to go properly bankrupt as it was so incompetently run. RBS has a bit more going for it but is obviously going to be broken up and sold off. Best hope is for an independent RBS to emerge from the ashes shorn of its overseas entanglements.
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 17:19:05
Rufus was it? I looked up the Irish national debt figures and the rest at CSO . ie and their national debt is Euro 37 Billion. GDP is Euro 190 Billion. So their debt to GDP ratio is about 20%. The second lowest in Europe after Luxembourg. UKs is 37% even if you believe Broons off balance sheet accounting methods. Irish GDP per capita is almost 40% higher than the UK. So hardly poverty stricken is it? I dont like posters who conjure figures up from thin air and I think it is best to correct them. Giving sources too!
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01/11/2008 17:23:25
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01/11/2008 17:26:42
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01/11/2008 17:48:13
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Ewan Oosami,

01/11/2008 18:00:33
What the hell does Mandleson know about business and banking - he's a failed tv producer, never had any training in economics other than corrupt practices and is the ultimate gravy train rider.
208

Publius,

Girvan 01/11/2008 18:13:00
#223 sm 7531/2

I've lost track of all these sm numbers. Why don't you adopt a nom de plum like other poster?

I don't know about 216 but I always thought that Northern Rock should have been left to go bust (albeit with compensation savers). I think HBOS should be left to go bust too - again with compensation for savers.
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01/11/2008 18:13:00
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Martyk,

01/11/2008 18:21:07
You are mistaken SM. Although I do not recall queues at HBOS branches there most certainly were very large online transfers out. A NR situation was developing and the gov stepped in. HBOS is finished. Accept it . Move on. Our best hope is for a brand new National Bank of Scotland from the remnants. Probably amalgamated with Standard Life to give a capital base and a quote. Oh , and an Edinburgh Stock Exchange. See this disaster as an opportunity as I do.
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Andrew.,

Oxford 01/11/2008 18:34:54
227

"National Bank of Scotland" is part of the RBS Group. They merged in the 20th Century.

"The European Union Bank of Scotland" perhaps?
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01/11/2008 18:41:54
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Old Gedney,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 19:25:48
This Jim Spowart is a nutcase, of course we'd all want HBOS to remain independent - that is I-N-D-E-P-E-D-E-N-T - thought i'd spell it out and decision making to remain in our capital city but this 'alternative deal' takes ownership of HBOS into foreign hands with the ultimate final decision making over HBOS taken not in Edinburgh, not in London but overseas, in other words no better for HBOS and no better for decision making being kept in Scotland.
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2008 20:12:45
Despite all the best efforts of the UK Unionist establishment to try and destabilise the Scottish banking System to weaken the case for Independence they are about to be scuppered at the last moment. Ha, Ha, Ha.

In this case I think Charles Linskaill could well be right....for a change. But I have no doubt whoever it is Scotland will be better served if HBOS becomes European rather than English.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

01/11/2008 20:33:27
Hey Sm7531/2 spanners/priest/parcel/weirdo why impersonate someone else?

Whats wrong with you?

Traquir might be the equivalent of the pub bore, but at least he is on the level.
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01/11/2008 20:53:52
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01/11/2008 20:57:40
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Anguished Scot,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 22:38:28
Wake up Scotland and smell the coffee. Westminster has its claws in RBS and any option that retains jobs in Scotland is worthy of serious consideration. One could not be blamed for being sceptical about what has happened to the banking sector in Scotland and that the situation may perhaps have been engineered. Give Alex Salmond a break and perhaps this great nation will eventually be "GREAT" again.
219

Shamus,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 22:44:43
HBOS is not an independent bank. It is a merger between Halifax and BOS. It is now international. The shareholders are worldwide. The HQ by agreement was EDINBURGH. That can change as is always the case with banks.Scotland has no right to claim any special status. When BOS SOLD OUT WE GAVE UP OUR RIGHT TO AN INDEPENDENT BANK. They did after all want the Halifax mortgage business. And they screwed that up. The losers are the shareholding workers that voted with the shareholders. It was a gamble. They have taken the bonuses now it is time to lose.
220

Marga,

Fife 01/11/2008 23:01:48
Brian Hill 231

Re. Charles and his predictions. If you look carefully at the BBC report, it says:

.. the unnamed bidder had been attracted by the low stock market valuation of Britain's biggest mortgage lender, which could give it a foothold in the UK market.

Logically, then, it could not be the Santander, which already has that foothold. Of course, there's more than one solvent bank in Spain, but I somehow think that with Santander already in the door, this may be less likely. Intriguing ...
221

Marga,

Fife 01/11/2008 23:05:34
By the way, have you seen the Sunday Herald lead? It seems Mr Murphy's talent for stealing the limelight is not seen positively by all, sm753.

Scots secretary under pressure to resign after leaking HBOS talks

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2464996.0.0.php

SCOTTISH SECRETARY Jim Murphy was last night under pressure to resign after he leaked sensitive financial information about a fresh bid for the troubled bank HBOS.

Murphy (pictured right) confirmed to journalists on Friday evening that he had been involved in discussions with Jim Spowart, the Fife financier, about an alternative to a proposed takeover by Lloyds TSB. Spowart, who had wanted the discussions to be secret, is furious Murphy confirmed the pair had been talking before a bid had crystallised.
222

Marga,

Fife 01/11/2008 23:09:01
This Murphy story is a bombshell. Good for the Sunday Herald:

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2464996.0.0.php

Alex Neil, the SNP MSP who has been campaigning for HBOS jobs to be saved, accused Murphy of trying to spike the second bid.

He said: "This is a resigning matter. Jim Murphy has shown that he can't really be trusted to keep confidential matters to himself. This is market-sensitive information. This is really underhand and mischievous behaviour to try and spike any chance of another bid."

David Mundell, the shadow Scottish secretary, said: "If there is any suggestion that any politician has got embroiled or broken any confidences then that is a very serious situation and must be investigated."

Tavish Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said: "This is really dirty tricks to save Labour's neck. This is purely because Gordon Brown cannot be seen to change his mind after waving the Lloyds TSB and HBOS deal to go through."
223

Marga,

Fife 01/11/2008 23:11:32
Same Murphy story:

Spowart, who last year signed a letter in support of the Union and sat on the same platform as Gordon Brown during the Scottish elections, said when he first spoke to Treasury officials he was treated like a "bumpkin frae Cowdenbeath", as if there was nothing he could possibly offer.
224

Shamus,

Glasgow 01/11/2008 23:24:32
Breaking News. Big Tam MuckGraw who has recently taken over a Credit Union in the Southside of Glasgow has made a takeover bid for HBOS. He is locally known as 'Big Tam' Tam is well known as a CeltGers fan attends Catholic Church and moves mysteriously in Masonic Circles. He is highly respected in the community. He says that all profits will be shared intraveniously by the local residents. He is sending his two pals to meet Mandy with an offer he cannot refuse.
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Martyk,

02/11/2008 01:14:55
235; banking transfers are recorded at 5 pm every evening,During those few days HBOS transfers out were very much larger than normal. Look it up.
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02/11/2008 06:56:15
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livilion,

livingston 04/11/2008 10:41:02
199 Martyk Fairfax

The Financial Services Authority

Quote:
"...There is no doubt that false and damaging rumours were circulating about HBOS on 19 March 2008 and these would have had some impact on HBOS’ share price..."
Also
17 Sep 2008
" ... We are satisfied that HBOS is a well-capitalised bank that continues to fund its business in a satisfactory way..."
Endquote



Clearly you value your own opinions higher than that of the UK Government's own FSA.
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21/11/2008 20:54:03
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