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SNP defiant after alcohol bill setback

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Published Date: 03 October 2008
ALEX Salmond is preparing to defy the Scottish Parliament and continue with his plans to raise the age for buying off-sales alcohol to 21 – despite its overwhelming rejection by MSPs last night.
A spokesman for the First Minister said Mr Salmond still believed that raising the age limit was the right approach and the policy is expected to be included in legislation when it is brought before parliament, either later this year or early next.

Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Greens and Conservatives joined forces yesterday to vote through a motion condemning the Scottish Government's alcohol age-limit plans.

That vote is not binding on the government, but it sent a clear message to ministers that parliament will not support the proposals. Ministers had been expected to take last night's vote on board and drop the age-limit plans from a package of measures on alcohol.

But the First Minister's spokesman made it clear the SNP wanted to press ahead regardless. He said: "Ministers are very confident of the merits of the proposal."

An SNP insider disclosed later that the over-21s only measure would almost certainly be in the bill to tackle binge drinking when it came forward. But he added that, although ministers were determined to pursue this plan, they were prepared for setbacks and even defeats.

"What we are doing is kicking off a debate which is absolutely necessary in Scotland. We have brought forward radical plans and, as a result, there is now a debate on Scotland's relationship with alcohol," the source said.

Yesterday's vote, 72 to 47 in favour of a Tory motion opposing the new age-limit plans, was greeted enthusiastically by campaigners against the plans inside and outside the chamber.

As soon as the vote was announced, Murdo Fraser, the deputy Tory leader, wrote to Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, asking him to withdraw the plans. Mr Fraser said: "It is now clear beyond doubt that the government's proposals have no prospect of attracting parliamentary support."

Mr Fraser said the First Minister had promised, when elected, to listen to the views of the Scottish Parliament. Given the result of the vote, Mr Fraser then asked Mr MacAskill to do just that and ditch the plans.

Mr MacAskill insisted during the debate that Scotland's drink problem was so great that action was needed. He said 40,000 people a year needed hospital treatment for an alcohol-related illnesses and that Scotland had one of the fastest-growing rates of drink-related liver disease and cirrhosis in the world.

He said: "That's why we need a serious debate, with serious suggestions from serious people.

"The difference between us and the other parties is we recognise the scale of the problem and are willing to try to new approaches to tackle it."

BACKGROUND

THE proposal to raise the legal age for buying alcohol in off-licences is just one of a package of measures from the Scottish Government designed to crack down on excessive drinking, particularly among the young.

The Criminal Justice and Licensing Bill also includes proposals to set minimum prices for alcohol – probably about 35p per unit – and the introduction of separate aisles for alcoholic drinks in supermarkets and shops. Other measures include ending "three for the price of two" type promotions, and introducing a "social responsibility fee" for some alcohol retailers to help pay for the consequences of alcohol misuse.





The full article contains 573 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 October 2008 11:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

03/10/2008 00:11:00
I am no lover of the SNP, however, to be fair to them they are trying to tackle one of the biggest problems in Scotland today and therefore should be commended for this bill.
2

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 03/10/2008 00:14:51
Yesterday, the Labour Party, supported by the Tories and the LibDems, frustrated the Scottish government’s attempts to pass legislation to protect Scots, their homes, their families and their loved ones from drunken, irresponsible and violent young people, debauched by cheap booze ruthlessly targeted at them by cynical and amoral marketing. This courageous attempt by the SNP government - elected by Scots in 2007 to supplant the moribund Labour/LibDem coalition - was designed to prevent those under 21 years of age from buying alcohol from shops, convenience stores and off-licences - a measure that has been shown to be effective in a number of trials. This unholy coalition comprised Labour, a dying party in Scotland, determined to make mischief by any means possible for the Scottish government, the Tories, a party closely associated with vested interests in the alcohol industry throughout their history, and almost totally rejected by the Scottish electorate, and the LibDems, a party known in Scotland mainly for propping up Labour for eight years, in spite of their profound differences on major issues of principle, then failing to support the SNP elected government with whom they shared many fundamental policies.
From this weekend on, when law-abiding Scots continue to be affected by the alcohol-fuelled violence and bad behaviour of young people, intoxicated on cheap booze bought from retail outlets, when they contemplate the broken glass, blood and vomit in their streets, then they will know who has contributed to this – the opposition parties and the 72 members of the Scottish Parliament who shamefully voted against this significant measure in cynical pursuit of short-term political advantage and in support of vested interest, at the expense of the people of Scotland.
But voters can be assured that the Scottish government is still committed to eradicate this blight on the life of Scotland, and will not be deflected from pursuing effective solutions to the problem.
3

,

03/10/2008 00:32:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 01:25:38


PROOVED WRONG! AND CANT TAKE-IT AS A MAN!

"Mummy!, The Boogie-Man, Stole My Teddy-bear"!

Says Mountains about the Man! Don't it,??

Don't Worry Alex! Daddy will Bring your Bottle, and Read you a Nice Story!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 01:35:31

NOW CHILDREN OF THE SNP!

Have you all got your 'Teddy-Bears' and Bottles and,...

....'Snuggled-up-in-your-Beds'

..YES!

Good Children!, Daddy Will Read to you then,...

...Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses, And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again!
6

,

03/10/2008 01:39:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
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7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 01:46:26


#1,

Don't think Soo somehow!

Muppet's! wanting to be Dictators, and remove Human Rights!

And the best of it IS!, A Policy that has NO foundation, and came out their,..'Lucky-Bags'!
8

Bzzzz,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 02:01:03
Right sentiments (and commendable ones) wrong approach.
Alcohol abuse is a HUGE problem in this country and rightly so the SNP is atempting to address it.
Got to say however the Labour msp's the day outside Holyrood were absolutely pathetic and cringeworthy! the new leader obviously commanding the personality and charisma of trainspotters wooly bunnet.
9

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/10/2008 02:15:08
#4 bring them on, here it goes again, the little hater of the party that kicked New Labour from office, who the people of Scotland voted to get rid of because they were utterly useless!

Obviously this bitter little person whose party has NO answer to Salmond because he is totally superior to anything New Labour has and makes them all look like what they are, true amateurs whose only interest were themselves!!
10

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 03/10/2008 03:05:37
I actually disagree with the SNP's stance on the off licence age being raised universally to 21. It is a sledgehammer approach which does not address the problem of underage drinking.

What I am in favour of is limiting the age only in those areas where the police and the licensing boards have found a serious problem and they should be empowered to restrict the age for sale of alcohol on good cause being shown. This seems to be a fairer and more pragmatic solution.

It might also be useful in this age of technology to be able to identify through bar code where a specific bottle of can has been purchsed. All have sellby dates and batch numbers. Where alcohol is found in prossession of youngsters it should be traceable back to a source of sale. When that is determined licencing restrictions can be put on those outlets.

Also perhaps licencing hours could be set to allow those of different ages to purchase alcohol over different hours. The 12.30 Sunday restriction prevents someone from picking up a bottle of wine to have with Sunday lunch. To treat someone in their 40s or 50s like they were 18 years old is insulting.

As for 'Bring them on' I have yet to read a constructive comment from that poster on any subject on these boards. I really don't know why they bother posting when all that is ever said is "It's all Salmond's blame" It is becoming tedious now, to the point of being psychotically obsessional.
11

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 03/10/2008 03:26:00
There is a saying which goes 'It is better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.' "bring them on" falls into the latter category that removes all doubt.
12

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/10/2008 03:36:59
#16, Go away you stupid uneducated little boy and leave the postings to adults, does your mummy know you are still up using your computer at this time, or is the real reason that your bed is all wet!!
13

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 03/10/2008 03:42:48
i've just watched the VP debate. Palin spoke well but tended to resort to cliches. she did not make any gaffes. Biden was slightly stronger on the detail and probably edged it. They were both very courteous and and it was refreshing to see politicians from different sides agree where they could. She managed to hold her own. Biden looked quite presidential. Both came over as very personable.
14

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/10/2008 03:59:51
#19, away and suck your mummy's diddies like a good little boy!!
15

democracy,

Scottish Borders 03/10/2008 04:30:41
So it isn't right that you stigmatise all 18 to 21year olds regarding drunken behaviour in Scotland.

Surely if it is acceptable for insurance companies to do this by punishing ALL young drivers with extortionate premiums because of the indiscretions of the minority, then surely a Government can do the same!!
16

Watson,

The wild west 03/10/2008 06:34:55
Try living next to some of these wonderful students. But it's not just students. Cans abd bottles litter the street at the week end (or when the unemployment benefit is paid out). Screems and shouting at 3am, 4am, 5am plus the fighting and arguments. Try getting a policeman to respond. Unfortunately many of our MSP's who voted against the proposal live in nice quiet "respectable" areas of the country away from all of this. Remember Margaret Curran, she couldn't remember where she worked or lived.
17

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 03/10/2008 06:45:28
There was a scheme in Cleveland (North of England) that banned the selling of alcohol to under 21s on Friday and Saturday evenings. The scheme was voluntary but willingly entered into by the shops. Interestingly because the ban was only on Friday & Saturdays it didn't impoverish retailers.

Both the BBC and Cleveland police pronounced it a definite success. It was so successful at cutting down on anti-social behaviour and crime that it was permanently adopted.

#9 Charles wrote:
"Muppet's! wanting to be Dictators, and remove Human Rights!"

I'm really not interested in people whining about their 'rights'. People have responsibilities first and only then do they have rights. Drunken yobs don't have the 'right' to impinge their yobish behaviour on others.
18

yockel,

03/10/2008 07:13:27
Go on Kenny boy just ignore the vote, you are right redargless of what anyone else says, NuLabour in a kilt.
19

Mikey,

03/10/2008 07:45:24
I'm really fed up of people ruining the debates on these pages. I'm not fed up of 'bring them on,' he's just a moron and knows no better, I'm fed up of the eejits that respond to him!

As to the story, why not enforce the law we already have and if that's not enough, THEN raise the age!
20

LEAL,

03/10/2008 07:46:17
The main thing is that the debate is continuing.It is up to the other parties to find a better solution to the problem and then get it through parliament.Lab/lib did nothing to address the drink problem in their 8 years in power.We now have a government which is prepared to put forward radical measures to improve the lives of Scots,and which will take onboard sensible suggestions which are in the intrests of the Scottish people.When will there be a byelection in Glenrothes?
21

Itchy,

03/10/2008 07:49:14
#2 This bill is not about curbing alcohol abuse, it is about bringing the drinks industry and the supermarkets under state control.

It is a power grab worthy of the Soviet Union.
22

Guga II,

Rockall 03/10/2008 07:55:44
Wee Eck seems to be continuing with this in order to show support for that waste of space, Kenny MacAskill. He needs to wake up and realise that MacAskill is still showing his Labour Party roots with this Stalinist type legislation, and that he is damaging the SNP.

Eck, there is enough existing legislation to control the drink problem. Just get them to enforce it; and get rid of MacAskill while you're at it.
23

scottish person,

paisley 03/10/2008 08:09:19
You are the most balanced moron I have read, a chip on each shoulder.
24

Rambo.the.Jambo,

03/10/2008 08:32:15
# 4 (et al) bring them on,

Your Unionist anti SNP anti Independance stance is becoming seriously tiresome.

Take heed from all posters who disagree with you. You are a petty tiresome bigot and should stick to posting on Weegie sites.

I live in an area of Edinburgh that is blighted with teenage weekend drinkers carrying cheap vodka etc. Raising the age to 21 should hopefully deter a large number of them. It's not just a Partisan party issue, it's a health issue.
25

,

03/10/2008 08:43:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Me, myself and I,

Livingston 03/10/2008 08:47:42
Eighteen or twenty one should not matter, although I would prefer the latter.

What matters is the enforcement of the current measures available:

* Parents knowing what their children are doing.
* Prosecution of shopkeepers who serve underagers.
* Revoking alcohol licences of shops/pubs/clubs where trouble occurs.
*Police operating a zero tolerance of drinking in public - streets and parks especially where young groups congregate.

Like most things start in your own home.
27

,

03/10/2008 08:52:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

,

03/10/2008 08:59:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Snails dont like curry and chips,

03/10/2008 09:11:07
I get really tired of morons tarnishing all youngsters with the same brush. I have kids of my own, nephews and all my friends have kids too. They don't going rampaging round the streets, getting pi**ed or knifing folk. As far as I can see from the papers this is left to the more mature drug crazed members of our society. Kenny McAskill is like some modern age Mary Whitehouse with a bee in his bonnet. So what if some clampdown in Cleveland works, or Stenhousemuir etc - these places are dumps with high unemployment and damn all for anyone to do generating many more problems than just drinking. All the SNP need to do is to enforce the current laws and let the police hit areas where there are real problems - of course they dont want to discriminate against the real trouble makers so a blanket ban on otherwise law abiding citizens is far easier. I look forward to seeing a young peoples party in Holyrood that can then pass laws enforcing everyone over 60 to remain in their homes every day and knit kilts.
30

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 09:23:14
# 40 the majority of folk are not murderers but we need laws to protect innocent citizens particularly other teenagers from the mindless under age morons who cause havoc with their cheap booze.
I am not 100% in favour of the raising of the age limit but it is certaily worth a wider trial period.
It is virtually impossible for police to check on every off licence and behind every back street for under age drinkers when they already have stretched resources.
31

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 03/10/2008 09:24:15
MacAskill defiant? The last time he was defiant was at Wembley.
32

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/10/2008 09:32:28
#4 BTO

Troll !
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/10/2008 09:33:24
#6 Charles

Learn to spell.
34

yolanda,

03/10/2008 09:34:41

I understand the reason behind this, but I don't agree with it. All that raising the age to 21 would do is to greatly increase the number of underage drinkers. The government should focus on enforcing the laws that are in place already, by hammering the off sales establishments for selling to underagers, and putting police on the beat to deal with drunken anti social behaviour rather than trying to force through yet more legislation.

Is there much evidence that alcohol related offences are committed more often by under 18s than by adults anyway?

I am also concerned when a politician (of any flavour) says they will bash ahead with proposals which have been rejected by elected members. I'm a bit disappointed to see that Alex Salmond doesn't listen. I expect it of Labour, but I thought the SNP might actually pay attention to the opinions of others.
35

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/10/2008 09:37:26
I happen to agree with this proposal, in the context of the complete set of proposals. Why not a trial period nation wide?

I find it interesting listening to Iain "Andy" Gray, when listing things that under 21s can do, he studiously avoided including "fighting in Iraq". I could sense his extreme discomfort at this conspicuous omission. Hypocrit !
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/10/2008 09:39:13
Regarding "Bring Them On".

Clearly he/she is a troll. Can we agree to ignore it?
37

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/10/2008 09:45:27
#32 Dave

I disagree. The vast majority of students who support the SNP will not be swayed against them by one policy.
38

Tonto43,

Midlothian 03/10/2008 09:57:39
Sorry but i thought we lived in a democracy not a dictatorship. The vote went against the government. You have to accept the majority.
However the question of age limits for everything might be a better way of tackling societies problems.
It is ludicrous that I can marry and have a family at 16. However I cannot drive a car until i'm 17. Then I cannot vote, or go into a public bar or have a credit card,until 18 and if the Scottish Government had been successful buy alcohol in an off sales until 21. Can anyone see the stupidity in all this.
I can still be a child between 16 and 18 if I am on social work supervision, But I can marry and have kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone needs to sit down and have a reality check here.
You become an adult at either 18 or 21. Take your pick and go with it. I think 18 is the correct age for everything. Others will have their opinions but as it stands the whole age thing is stupid.
39

57vintage,

Keith 03/10/2008 10:12:09
"joining the army"

"list of do-ables', mindless violence, disturbing the peace, intimidating the public, wrecking property and otherwise behaving irresponsibly"

Are these statements in any way connected?

The laws are already there - let's see them used.
40

Marga,

Fife 03/10/2008 10:23:47
Snails - you say:

"I look forward to seeing a young peoples party in Holyrood that can then pass laws enforcing everyone over 60 to remain in their homes every day and knit kilts."

You already have a situation when many people over 60 are forced to remain in their homes in the evenings due to fear of drink-fueled violence. Your point was?
41

Snails dont like curry and chips,

03/10/2008 10:24:56
#43 - ever heard of an organisation called the police. Since some administration decided that the police job is now filling in forms and giving out speeding tickets rather than having a presence on the streets things have gone from bad to worse. Enforcement of current laws is simply the answer. Of course if we stop legally aged people from buying alcohol and those who really crave it can always start housebreaking to get their hands on a few bottles of Carslberg or whatever.
42

Scotsman in Dublin,

03/10/2008 10:26:37
The SNP Goverment should be commended for tackling what is a huge issue in Scotland and for creating debate on the subject, but I dont agree that changing the age limit to 18 is the answer. If at 18 you are old enough to pay tax, join the army etc you should be old enough to buy a drink, the problem is that people way under 18 are getting their hands on the stuff.

When I lived in the USA state law required the bars to check ID of everyone coming into the bar and if someone was found on the premises under age the barman was arrested. Perhaps this should be applied to off license sales in Scotland, if the seller is found to have supplied alcohol to a minor just arrest them on the spot - checkout assistants and corner shopkeepers would soon become vigilant if the thought that they would end up in jail for not checking ID.
43

Snails dont like curry and chips,

03/10/2008 10:30:54
#54 - some people (and it is not just the elderly)are too afraid to open their curtains in the morning in case (as per the doom ridden news media) the ice caps have melted or the earth has been engulfed in a solar blast. Edinburgh is teeming with older people from day to night (just look at the passengers on any bus) and I don't know of any who are too scared to go out. If they have any problems in their neighbourhood they should get in touch with the police who should sort the matter out ona local basis and in accordance with existing law.
44

Calum Crubag,

03/10/2008 10:36:43
Shame on the unionist parties for their actions. Some questions for them:

Should cannibis and other such drugs be legalised as existing legislation is not working. Cannibis use especially is so widespread, is it logical to keep it illegal?

What are their solutions to our drink problem? Labour and LibDems don't seem to have done much in their years of power.

And, if young people can kill and be killed at 18, why can't they also make the mature choice to take heroin if they so choose?
45

Calum Crubag,

03/10/2008 10:37:33
Meant to say... And, if young people can kill and be killed as soldiers at 18, why can't they also make the mature choice to take heroin if they so choose?
46

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 10:49:22
# 35 Heriot Watt university student association

Indeed. Ever since the Scotsman banned posting on Old Firm or Celtic/Rangers related stories our own sites have ben turned into sectarian repositories for Weegie bigoted rants
47

DAVID,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 11:12:22
The main issue here is the anti-democratic desires of the SNP.

What they're doing is underhand and duplicitous. There's no chance of the parliament voting this through as a standalone bill, so they'll chuck the measure into a more general bill with other measures and hope to bully people into approving it.

To SNP Supporters - are you really going to tell us that when parliament has rejected something it's good democracy for them to reject this sentiment and force it in via the back door?
48

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 11:18:16
If ever a national referendum were needed then this is it. I dont like the idea of the Scottish government forcing through legislation on its own with so much opposition anymore than I like seeing it comming from the UK government who forces their own MPs to vote against their conscience with party whips.
Put it to the country Alex and either get an overwhelming mandate for it or and overwhelming mandate to drop it honourably. Even if you lose the referendum you can walk away and still come out of it smelling of roses.
49

Miss H,

03/10/2008 11:18:28
64 You might have a point if bills are not subject to amendment ............
50

Miss H,

03/10/2008 11:20:05
65 Hallo? Nothing can be forced through the Scottish Parliament unless it gains majority support. There is no possibility of the SNP being able to 'force' through anything.
51

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 11:22:35
64

All this highlights is the stupidity of this devolution set up and the near impossibility of trying to get any legislation through as a minority government. Like I said above this is the ideal oportunity to use a national referendum to solve the matter. If the people give the Scottish government the mandate then even the opposition would have to shut up and accept it and if they dont then the Government can walk away without losing face.
52

Publius,

London 03/10/2008 11:25:05
Never mind teenagers. When I was in Kilmarnock (car park in town centre) with my elderly mother at 11.a.m. on a Saturday morning a month ago, we were jostled by two middle aged drunks. Please will SNP supporters on this page tell us what their party proposes to do about middle aged drunks?
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 11:25:41
67

Oh hello I was wondering when you were going to show up in Alans place.
Cant force through legislation eh? you sound as if your refering to a "DEMOCRATIC" parliament and not one set up in the UK.
And exactly how has New Labour been able to "force" through very unpopular legislation in spite of the so called "Labour rebels"???????????
54

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 11:27:58
69

If you were drunk as well you wouldnt even have noticed.
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 11:31:59
69

So the answer seems to be to drink more yersell.
If you cant beat em join em.
56

Publius,

London 03/10/2008 11:33:34
#71
You may drink and drive. I don't.

My point in #69 is serious. It isn't only teenagers who cause a nuisance by drunkenness in public. It's often people in their 20s and in my misadventure in Kilmarnock men in their 40s or 50s.
There are laws about being drunk and disorderly in public places, but they are rarely enforced.
57

NorT,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 11:42:26
There is an easy answer. Remove the proposed distinction between the age for buying in off licenses and pubs and make the minimum age for the purchase of alcohol 21 everywhere. That would stop the drunken students. A lot of establisments already have a no under 21s rule.
58

bluehead,

edinburgh 03/10/2008 11:49:55
I do wish Alex would stop being so thick,there was no chance of such a rule would be passed,all that has happened is they have shown just how ignorant they can be,the SNP disappoint me, I had hoped they would show more common sense, Alex is known to be shrewd and a clever man,however in this case he is at the bottom of the class,wearing the dunce's cap!!!
59

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 11:57:03
Regardless of whether or not Scotland has a teenage drink problem, you cannot and must not try to address it by targetting the innocent... and that is exactly what these proposed measures will do.

By legislating against innocent people, they will cause problems to manifest themselves in other areas and those problems will be far worse than the ones the legislation seeks to address.

Due to over-zealous enforcement of licencing age limits, we ended up with crowds of youths drinking in parks. By preventing 18-21 year olds form buying drink, we will likely end up with housebreakings and muggings in pursuit of alcohol.

It is about time that those in power realised that restrictive laws and draconian enforcement DO NOT WORK.
60

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

03/10/2008 12:00:09
Alex should realise that this is his 'wake-up' call. He and the rest of the Party are very much in danger of falling into the same trap Nu Labour/Owld Torie fell into. i.e. believing that everything that THEY want MUST be right, correct, proper and what the PEOPLE need.

What the people need, Alex, is respect from Politicians, and the enforcement of current legislation which is ample and vigorous enough, to curtail most of the 'Underage' drinking, and Yobbish behaviour from all age groups.
Perhaps he should start by abolishing children's panels, and bringing that group back under 'proper control'.
He could then 'punish' Police Committee's for NOT enforcing existing Public Order Laws.
What it ain't is Rocket Science. what it needs is Political Willpower, which appears to be lacking from ALL the current Political Parties.

Mini Rant over ;-)
61

The Tin Man,

03/10/2008 12:10:34
#78 Rabbies Wee Bruthir

Thank you for some sense.

Being drunk and disorderly is already illegal!!!!

Well there's a thing....
62

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 12:20:43
#78:

"He and the rest of the Party are very much in danger of falling into the same trap Nu Labour/Owld Torie fell into. i.e. believing that everything that THEY want MUST be right, correct, proper and what the PEOPLE need."

And you know where all that stemmed from don't you? During the 1980 Tory conference speech, Maggie Thatcher made her famous "The Lady's not for turning" speech. This was made against a backdrop of complete and utter disarray and indecision on the part of Callaghan's lot during their final days in government.

It was intended to contrast the Tories who had direction with the labour party who had none. Since then, every single politician has refused to change their minds about anything, no matter how ludicrous their initial idea has proven to be, lest they be accused of making a "U-Turn".

Mrs. Thatcher never intended her speech to be interpreted that way and I'm sure that she never intended politicians to become dumb, stubborn stick-in-the-muds on the basis of it. However, that is what has happened, and Salmond's daft reaction to this overwealming vote against a daft proposal is evidence of this.

I know MacAskill is an idiot, but I frankly thought that Salmond had more sense.
63

AJ Fife,

03/10/2008 12:30:29
The SNP attempt to make a real difference in our society and the unionists torpedo the Bill!!

The public have taken note........
64

Calum Crubag,

03/10/2008 12:35:46
#77 Octane head - I agree. The current legislation against drug dealers, rapists and murderers makes criminals of otherwise 'innocent' people. Lets repeal ALL laws then?

And who opposes this law? Drink manufacturers/ sellers (drug dealers) and students under 21. Quell surpise! Why not ask hard-drug dealers and junkies if THEY want to be criminalised too?
65

Calum Crubag,

03/10/2008 12:37:26
Tories used to say that cannibis was the 'slippery slope to harder drugs'. Have they changed their minds?

I'd say most junkies start with alcohol, tobacco and the pills from mom's cabinet.
66

Confused,

edinburgh 03/10/2008 12:49:45
I think the raising to 21 is a bad idea as it doesn't target those who are irresponsible. In my opinion it would be better to use the law to target the wrong doer not a blanket thrown over everyone, which seems to be the most popular form of law making by both governments. Drinking alcohol in the streets should be banned, drunks should be lifted from the streets and locked up with appropriate medical checks until they are sober enough to return to society. This does not have to be jail but for some it may be appropriate. Anyon e convicted of an offence while under the influence of alcohol should have the sentence increased instead of being able to use it as a defence. Establishments found to be selling to minors should be closed for a period of time so that it is obvious to all who are the perpetrators of this crime. When their licence is up for renewal any closure should be taken into account. All under 21s are not to blame. Target those who are with the full measure of the law. End cut price promotions. BOGOF for alcohol is just plain stupid.
67

Publius,

London 03/10/2008 12:56:21
Alcholism in Scotland is rife among all ages. Perhaps Holyrood should set an example by closing down its bar permanently. MSPs will be much better for not drinking on duty.
68

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 13:00:15
73

Who said anything about drinking and driving???
Different issue than your point at 69 and makes a nonsense of your claim to be serious about the matter.
You are a party political hack and this is nothing more to you than party political troll feed.
Middle aged drinking is not the issue its underaged drinking and increacing the underage threshold.
Is it an answer to the problems? no not on its own but it gives the authorities the teeth to bring out other measures which may have an affect on the overall problem. Without any illegality there is nothing anybody can do to combat the situation. The first step in dealing with a social problem of this nature is to make it illegal. It isnt the answer in itself.
69

AbandonAllHope,

03/10/2008 13:03:30
Good, when can they stop under 21's getting in the pub ?
70

,

03/10/2008 13:03:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 13:08:37
87

They try sometimes they succeed sometimes they dont.
When doctors operate on patients sometimes they succeed sometimes they dont is that a measure of failure? or success?
72

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 13:12:58
84

I think the raising to 21 is a bad idea as it doesn't target those who are irresponsible. In my opinion it would be better to use the law to target the wrong doer not a blanket thrown over everyone,

Thats a fair point and highlight the problems of using legal legislation to curb a problem not experianced by everybody who will be affected by the legislation.
The problem is its a law for everybody or its not really a law at all. Not everybody steals cars but the illegality of stealing cars should rightly apply to everybody not just those who actually do it.
73

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 13:29:05
#83:

"The current legislation against drug dealers, rapists and murderers makes criminals of otherwise 'innocent' people. Lets repeal ALL laws then?"

When you have something constructive and well-thought out to say then be my guest. Until then, shut up and go away.
74

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 13:38:12
#90:

"The problem is its a law for everybody or its not really a law at all. Not everybody steals cars but the illegality of stealing cars should rightly apply to everybody not just those who actually do it."

Laws concerning offensive behaviour already exist and apply to everyone. Examples are urinating in a public place, assault, public order, drunkenness, criminal damage etc etc.

These are the laws that are being broken. It is incidental that alcohol is related to the offences. If those who were drinking (sometimes illegally) in parks and on street corners were well behaved and didn't break the laws above, I doubt very much if there would be the same level of problems.

In fact, this situation did exist 30 years ago. 16 year-olds went to pubs and behaved themselves because they wanted to be able to go back there again the next week. There were no problems. It was only once they started enforcing the age limit rigidly that kids started drinking in parks.

Rigid enforcement of licencing laws is not the answer. Rigid enforcement of "social" laws may be. Also, the attitude towards handling ones drink needs to change. Let's bring back some machismo into the equation, where you are seen as a man if you HANDLE your drink, rather than being seen as a man if you act like a moron.
75

Publius,

London 03/10/2008 13:53:48
#86 suchaparcelofrogues

You write "Who said anything about drinking and driving???"

In my original post (69) I said the middle aged drunks were in a carpark. In 71 you said that if I was drunk as well I wouldn't have noticed. I don't know about you but I often park my car in carpark. For all I know the drunks may have parked their car there too.

I think you are trawling this board looking for someone to pick an argument with.

76

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/10/2008 13:58:39
My 18-year-old step-daughter who was considering voting for the SNP says they won't get her vote if they bring this in.

She, quite rightly, says that she's seen more trouble from drunks rolling out of nightclubs and pubs than from those buying drink from the local offie.

Perhaps the problem is that when there is trouble at the local off-license it is usually right on your doorstep whilst trouble outside nightclubs etc is not.

I just don't honestly believe that having one age for pubs/clubs and one age for off-licenses is going to work. Either the age limit should be 18 for all or 21 for all - obviously if it is 18 and a landlord/proprietor wants a higher limit then that should be left to them.

But ultimately this proposal dos not deal with the fundamental issue - it only deals with the symptoms. It compleetly ignore the fact that many people in our country, not just young people, have an appalling attitude towards alcohol. It is through education and by challenging and changing attitudes that this problem will be dealt with. One only has to look at our continental neighbours where a much less authoritarian approach means they don't have the problems we have. Young people are taught from an early age to respect alcohol - to see it as part of a social occasion not the sole aim of a social occasion.
77

Scotland to prosper...,

03/10/2008 14:00:24
Why do people instantly shout at the top of their voice: "my rights are being taken away!"

What about everyone else's right to walk down the street without feeling threatened by drunken yobs?

The problem is, alochol doesn't make people irresponsible, the society they are exposed to does. And I'm not saying its just the poor who drink and act yobbish, there's plenty of Etonian toffs causing similar hassle on a nightly basis.
78

walter,

03/10/2008 14:20:29
Is this democracy SNP style, the majority of MSPs who represent the majority of the Scottish people have voted down a proposal yet the minority of MSPs who represent the minority of Scottish people intending to include the proposal in a bill anyway.
What we have is the SNP government intending to have their bill with proposals including minimum price for alcohol, a ban on irresponsible promotions and a social responsibility fee for some retailers voted down by insisting that this proposal on the age limit is included in it.
Anybody would think they did not want the bill passed at all and were looking for another reason to say look we tried to do this but the opposition parties did not let us.
79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/10/2008 14:49:55
#96 "Anybody would think they did not want the bill passed at all and were looking for another reason to say look we tried to do this but the opposition parties did not let us."

As if any political party would try to pull a fast one like that . . .
80

Miss H,

03/10/2008 15:11:02
96 FFS Every bill is subject to amendment.
81

Calvinist,

03/10/2008 15:18:38
Keep up the good work Alex and Kenny;

You're losing 1000s of votes.
82

AM2,

Scotland,UK 03/10/2008 15:23:41
Alex Salmond, speaking on 16 May 2007: “My pledge to the Parliament today is that any Scottish Government that is led by me will respect and include the Parliament in the governance of Scotland over the next four years.”

Another broken promise.
83

vimto,

03/10/2008 15:43:11
Who the hell does Salmond think he is, he's nothing more than a tin pot dictator.
84

Alan B,

03/10/2008 16:31:27
#danielrober

It looks like the government can bring forward legislation to ban under 21 buying alcohol but that does not mean the legislation will be passed.
85

argonaut,

east lothian 03/10/2008 16:50:48
booze culture among teens in particular is at epedemic levels and something needs to be done. I cant recall any party previous to the SNP government doing anything at all about it except bringing in asbos which of course was a complete failure. Im just glad that this issue is coming to the fore and at last people in power are at least addressing the booze problem among teens and others.
i have seen too many people - young and old over the years - committ appalling acts and all down to the drink. my local supermarket is today selling 24 cans stella for a tenner - thats crazy.
86

Team Scotland,

In rehab 03/10/2008 17:29:12
Having returned recently from Paris where going out on a Saturday night with my wife was a pleasant experience shared by couples, the elderly and families alike. We could travel on the Metro on a Saturday night without running the gauntlet of deranged drinkers.

I could not help but notice on the very busy Champs Elesys they do not have to bolt the park benches to the ground. If that was the case here they would be sold for scrap, thrown into the fountains or kicked up someone’s ars5e.

Scotland’s alcoholism is an embarrassment as are those who fail to see it must be tackled vigorously if we are to become a civilised country. Alcoholics are predictably loud and aggressive but you are not the majority.

Te SNP are making this a matter of principal and rightly so.
87

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 17:39:21
#105:

Have you ever stopped to think that this kind of behaviour is inate in it's purpetrators? Booze only brings it to the surface. Booze is not the problem. the REAL problem is inbred stupidity.
88

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/10/2008 18:30:00
If you throw a grenade into a cesspit some shìt will hit the fan.
89

Alan B,

03/10/2008 18:47:23
#danielrober

"New rules without new laws and in the face of Parliamentary decisions"

Have you read the article

"A spokesman for the First Minister said Mr Salmond still believed that raising the age limit was the right approach and the policy is expected to be included in legislation when it is brought before parliament, either later this year or early next."

That clearly says the government intending bringing forward legislation for this measure. As such that is clearly not new rules without new laws (ie legislation).

So what are you on about.

Your posts are getting abit weird as they tend to defy the facts of what we are actually talking about.
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 03/10/2008 19:00:01
93

I walk through a carpark everytime I want to go to Scotmid or Tesco or Morrisons you tube.
Like I said not a serious point just another troll.
91

Media 1,

cape town 03/10/2008 19:41:42
I cant stand the SNP and Salmond gets my vote as the most pointless leader in the history of British politics. However, on this issue I agree with him.

Kids should not have access to alcohol.

21 is a good idea.
92

Decent,

03/10/2008 20:21:06
There is a drink problem in Scotland. Has nobody thought about why? Could it be because we allow people to sit on their fat a@@@@s claim dole money and breed and get £500 for each bairn they produce? Do you really believe these kind of people are capable of bringing up decent human beings? Stop paying them to breed and the problem will go away. End of story.
93

GM,

03/10/2008 20:25:13
I reckon the number of nationalists on this thread who feel it was a bad policy, coupled with the number of unionists who appear to think it was a good idea...
amply illustrate that this issue transends party politics.


Its a shame then the labour etc clearly simply followed party instructions to give the SNP a short term bloody nose.

shame really... a free vote would have been interesting.
94

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/10/2008 20:28:52
Media 1. What is the age for purchasing alcohol in S Efrica?

Why is Salmond pointless? Why do you not tell everyone where the Colonies are in your Stockbridge home from home?

Why are you pointfull as opposed to pointless?
95

karinxxx,

03/10/2008 21:13:33
okay i agree with everyone who says this isnt a good idea its not what we need to do is REDUCE the age at which young people are allowed to drink alcohol.

I say give it to toddlers and babies.
96

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/10/2008 21:19:16
115, karinxxx. You might like to consider that these ancient laws were brought about because of the effects alcohol could have on underdeveloped bodies. Bit like the sex before 16 thing and the school meals.
97

Dr Cloth,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 21:29:12
I think it's a great idea. Let's say to our 18 year olds that they can't have a glass of wine or a can of beer at home with their friends but they can go to the pub, drink as much as they like and waste police and hospital time with the results. They can also leave school, get a job, get married and parent children at 16 but it will be another 5 years later that they can finally bring home a bottle of wine home to their partner.

A brilliant idea from a brilliant party
98

Decent,

03/10/2008 21:35:57
I find it laughable that they are trying to reduce the age of consent for sex and raise it for purchasing alcohol! Why not just ask the parents to bring their children up to be sensible people? Oh sorry we can't because we have the inbred doleys to consider.
99

,

03/10/2008 21:37:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
100

Edinburgh Noddy,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 21:47:16
This is not a party issue. I don't know what the answer to problem drinking is, and I don't think glib suggestions help. There is a problem, and it seems best to look to what works, based on evidence, and maybe trials. A 21 age limit might work, but might be difficult to enforce fairly as it's hard to judge someone's age. But not all under 21s are immature, and not all over 21s are mature. I think a cross party group needs to look at the problem and trial solutions to see what works. It's silly to just 'guess' what will help and then legislate. Maybe we don't even need more legislation.
101

Dr Cloth,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 21:52:11
#119

In your last two paragraphs you mention "the English government in Westminster" and "Westminster parties for England".

I do hate to point it out but it is in fact a British Government in Westminster. Indeed the Prime Minister AND the Chancellor are Scottish. Damn those English and the stranglehold they have on Scotland....
102

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 03/10/2008 23:45:21
I suppose Labour would like to employ another 100,000 social workers or the like to council the poor wee cherubs - not to mention to rub the belly of their union masters.

If the youth can't handle their booze in a civil fashion then raise the age and give the law some teeth ! Bring back the birch for alcohol fueled violence and vandalism - simple !
103

SilverShred,

In the jamjar 04/10/2008 00:10:23

Hate to tell the Unionists, but by far the biggest issue on the doorsteps of Glenrothes is the absolute despair felt by people at the anti-social behaviour inflicted on their communities by under-age drinkers and their just-legal suppliers.
104

Belinda-2,

04/10/2008 10:46:00
#123

I was in Glenrothes recently and it was described as absolute hell by one of its residents .. just don't go to many of its districts, he said: desperate lack of resources and badly afflicted by drugs. Very few adult hospitality venues and the bowling ally that used to be frequented by young adults now closes at 6pm. Never having lived there I only have his word for it.

Much of the problem can be traced back to the destruction of Scotland's industrial base: this did not create the alcohol problem which is as old as the hills, but it created a generation of the population without an immediate sense of purpose, and deprived of the skills of their forefathers.

However I am sure that even Glenrothes has its share of responsible young adult drinkers. Since there is no public transport and no pub: what are such people to do in the evening if they want to have a drink? There will still be nowhere they can go.

If people are identifying young drinkers as a problem, all the more reason for proper intervention: not authoritarian measures that further restrict people's choices.

It is hard to reverse the kind of economic devastation that was imposed in the Thatcher years, but this is no reason for rolling out a measure that stigmatises the young across the WHOLE country: it is not even a good reason to impose it in Glenrothes.

However they say increased government repressiveness is a symptom of decline in the economic cycle.

Resticting freedom of those who have not abused it is repression.




 

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