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SNP left turn as right to buy is ditched

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Published Date: 19 October 2009
THE SNP gave a clear signal yesterday of its intention to roll Scotland back to the left, as it closed its party conference unveiling new policies boosting the power and scope of the state.
In her closing speech to conference in Inverness, Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon sounded the death knell of the "right-to-buy", the emblematic policy of the Thatcher revolution, which allowed council tenants to buy their homes.

She also revealed that Stracathro hospital, which the previous Labour-Liberal executive had handed over to an independent operator, would now be returning to full NHS control.

Together, the moves will further widen the gap in public service provision between Scotland and England, with ministers south of the Border opting to keep right-to-buy, and use the independent sector in health and education. Under the SNP, the private sector has already been barred from providing GP services, hospital cleaning and catering.

Echoing party leader Alex Salmond a day earlier, Ms Sturgeon used her speech to claim that Labour and the Conservatives had a joint agenda to cut and privatise public services. She said she would never allow private profit to come before the public sector.

But critics said last night that the SNP's "public sector good, private sector bad" mentality was "misguided", warning that Scotland could miss out on improvements to efficiency and higher standards as a result.

The main announcement in Ms Sturgeon's speech was on the right-to-buy, which has been available to council tenants across the UK for nearly 30 years.

However, new tenants and those coming back into the social rented sector will no longer be able to take advantage of the scheme. People entering newly built homes have already had their right to buy removed. Only those tenants already in homes will still be able to buy them.

Ms Sturgeon told delegates: "Home ownership is an aspiration this government supports. But we also have a responsibility to provide homes for those who can't afford to buy."

She added: "We're building record numbers of houses, but our ambition to substantially increase the supply of homes for rent will be frustrated if we then sell them off under the right-to-buy. That is why I believe that the right-to-buy has had its day. Over the next decade, these proposals will safeguard up to 18,000 houses."

The SNP will now press ahead with a new bill early next year to change the legislation on housing. There are currently 600,000 households in council homes in Scotland but once the people currently living in the socially rented sector die, buy their home or move into the private sector, the policy will cease to exist. In England, council house dwellers will keep the right.

The Conservatives hit out yesterday, saying the plans amounted to "political vandalism".

Mary Scanlon, Conservative spokeswoman for health and housing said: "The SNP is wrong. Under the Conservatives, tens of thousands of homes were bought and tens of thousands of affordable homes for rent were built. In fact, over 400,000 families across Scotland have now fulfilled their aspiration of home ownership as a result of the Conservative policy of right-to-buy."

She added: "It is a sad day for many people who hope that one day their status will change from tenant to owner."

For Labour, shadow health secretary Cathy Jamieson said that Ms Sturgeon had "completely missed the point". She said that housing associations were now warning that waiting lists for homes were likely to soar because of cuts in the housing budget. She went on: "To tinker with the right-to-buy completely misses the point. The best way to deal with homelessness is to build more homes."

Ms Sturgeon's announcement comes almost exactly 29 years after the 1980 Housing Act, enshrining the right-to-buy, was introduced by the Thatcher government. By 1982, many council tenants had exercised their right, with more than 400,000 people buying their council homes at reduced prices.

It was then subsequently extended to tenants in leasehold properties, becoming one of the Conservatives' most successful policies, proving a vote winner for the party in both 1979 and 1983.

Since its introduction, almost half a million homes for rent in Scotland have been sold at a discount. However, in recent years, the policy has been blamed for causing a shortfall in council housing stock, leading to huge waiting lists for people wanting to get a council house.

Later in the speech, Ms Sturgeon confirmed that Stracathro hospital near Brechin would be returning to full NHS control, just four years after it was set up as a joint venture between the NHS and an independent treatment provider. The centre has been operated privately and paid for by the NHS.

Ms Sturgeon said: "This is the only private contract of its kind in Scotland and it comes to an end on January 3rd next year. From January, it will be delivered in and by the NHS. Stracathro is coming home to the NHS."

She added: "I am proud that this government has stopped in its tracks the Labour privatisation of the NHS."

Her announcement was met with cheers by SNP activists, but business chiefs criticised the decision. David Lonsdale, assistant director of the CBI in Scotland said: "This is the latest in a series of announcements designed to squeeze out the independent sector from providing public services, following earlier bans on firms from providing GP services, hospital catering and cleaning, and prisons."

He added: "This 'public sector good, private sector bad' mentality is unfortunate and misguided. Shutting the door on independent providers means Scotland missing out on an opportunity to attract external investment, expand capacity, and ensure services become more innovative, accessible and responsive to patients' needs.

"Instead of banning commercial providers, ministers ought to be doing everything they can to encourage them, particularly in light of the need to deliver value for money services given the looming squeeze on the public finances."


'Going it alone' gets whole new meaning

THE SNP's Westminster campaign team was nearly wiped out yesterday. Party organisers arranged for all their 59 candidates to pose on a foot bridge over the swollen River Ness. With the weight of so many nationalists on board, however, the bridge began to sway alarmingly, prompting some of the more fearty candidates to dash for the shore.

Transport Minister always on the move

TRANSPORT Minister Stewart Stevenson makes a great play of his slightly eccentric geekiness.

Reporting to delegates, he recounted how he had so far attended 2,500 meetings, answered 3,500 parliamentary questions, and written 4,000 letters. Soon, Stevenson boasted, he would undertake his 1,000th train or bus journey. "And I've walked 500 miles," he added.

Where's the beef? Welcome Nicola …

THERE'S one problem with having what had been – until Nicola Sturgeon's meaty speech yesterday afternoon – a largely policy-free conference.

"Without any policies, there's nothing to do apart from bitch about each other," said one SNP stalwart over lunch yesterday. Good to see that even in the modern SNP, some things don't change.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 October 2009 10:47 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Allan(handofgod137),

19/10/2009 00:11:17
Same old gnats, the developed world abandons socialism while they embrace it as integal to their plan to make Scotland a 3rd world cpountry.
2

Justin Timbercake,

19/10/2009 00:17:19
#1 Correct.

The SNP want to take Scotland back to the dark ages.
3

Yok Finney,

Ross 19/10/2009 00:23:25
You're the politics of envy, Alan. Spain has a socialist party for every day of week, and what Brit wouldn't rather live there.
4

JaF,

19/10/2009 00:25:22
#2:JT:Correct,Timberfake is no fake.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 00:27:55

I would say this is a very bad move the SNP have made, and one which will be unpopular with many, surely if one is willing to work hard enough to enable themselves, to be able to purchase their council house, they are in effect bringing Scotland a valuable, much needed working population, who can only benefit our society, which then put money into our economy, enabling councils to build houses.



6

,

19/10/2009 00:29:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Moridura,

Kirkliston 19/10/2009 00:31:34
So it's a left turn to secure housing for low paid essential workers and the poorest in our society, after the winner-take-all, devil take the hindmost greed of the Labour years, pricing them out of the market. Well, I suppose it is a recovery of the values the Labour Party used to exhibit before they became the Tories Mark II

Nice to know we can always rely on this unionist twaddle from Barnes, and doubtless we'll soon hear from the Mad Ox himself. With enemies like these two, the Scottish Government doesn't really need friends.
8

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 19/10/2009 00:37:40
2#Justin Timber-Thickie.
We really must get you signed up for the next Olympics so you can bore for Scotland. I'n sure that somehow we can find you someone who can help you develop an original thought.
9

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 00:38:28
The right to buy was the part of Tory's masterplan to re-create us all in their "I'm all right Jack" image.

While I don't grudge anyone a bargain, I fail to see why I should foot the bill or why future generations should be condemned to choose between living in a right to buy created hellhole, or put themselves in hock to the banks to the tune of 5x their annual salary.

The housing market crash was caused by 1st time buyers being unable to get on the ladder...The right to buy pushed the first rung of that ladder beyond their reach.
10

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 00:47:26
-right to buy is ditched-

HOORAY!
Popular, needed and thirty years too late.

Shame on Labour for losing all those council houses to the corrupt Tory Mortgage marketeers.

Labour can turn right as much as they want to now there is a socialist government ad party in Scotland at last.
11

Jock MacSprog,

19/10/2009 00:48:21
#6, what's not to like? Paying for all those "free" things you listed , that's what's not to like
12

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 00:49:24
#5 Charles Linskaill

The council houses that were worth buying, were all bought years ago and have daft wee porches at their front doors now.

The ones that are left are in Pilton , sighthill etc

My Gran bought hers in Tamfourhill 30 years ago (seriously #6 she did)...CR Smith wanted more to replace the windows than she had paid for the house.
13

Julian.,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 00:50:56
#10 The Col

I doubt very much whether any of those council houses sold under right-to-buy actually cost the taxpayer anything.

Under this new SNP policy future generations will have little chance of getting on the housing ladder. They'll be lucky to even put themselves in hock to the bank for 5 times their salary. At least in the past they could start off in a council house with the hope of buying at a reasonable price at some point.

Methinks this has more to do with reversing a Thatcher policy for PR purposes. If council houses are in short supply then why don't they build more of the damn things?
14

Julian.,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 00:55:34
The main problem with right to buy is they never built any more to replace the ones that were sold. Easily remedied.

The other problem was that people took advantage of the good deals to buy the houses and rent them out at a profit. They should have had some clause put into the title deeds to stop them doing that.
15

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 00:57:12
#13 Jimmy Fae the West - "Shame on Labour for losing all those council houses to the corrupt Tory Mortgage marketeers"

I had forgotten all about those "mobile mortgage advice" vans that toured the scheemes, selling money to poor people.

And the chancers, who "bought" their elderly relatives houses then got the old dears to pay the often fraudulently obtained mortgage for them.
16

The Strategist,

19/10/2009 00:57:18
Left wing? What a daft comment... Every Govt whether Labour or Tory supported social housing up until Thatcher. It was only then that "right to buy" was introduced and with it came the start of the house price boom as council tenants bought their houses/flats for peanuts and sold them for a huge profit.

Removing the right to buy is eminently sensible becase it helps cool down at least one sector of the housing market.
17

Incandescent,

19/10/2009 01:03:50
#19 Spot on. Not really more to be said on the matter, though I'm sure that won't stop many here pontificating until around noon tomorrow.

P.S. Congrats to Charles for learning to use a semblance of punctuation.
18

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:04:16
Despite the heartfelt wishes of "The Scottish Government" it's still the United Kingdom. Anyone who wants to buy their home but hasn't until now should sue the S.O.B.'s for discriminatory conduct!
19

Edward,

19/10/2009 01:06:03
So funny Eddie Barnes!
SNP now more socialist than Labour
then again thatsnot hard when Labour are more right wing than the Tories
20

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 01:07:02
#16 Julian

Probably not but it was too expensive for the councils to replace them and the average quality of the council house stock deteriorated rapidly.

30 odd years down the line we are in the position where only single parent families have a realistic chance of getting a council house, young single people and couples on low-ish incomes have little choice but to rent privately...often houses that were once owned by the councils.

21

Vivas,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 01:07:57
This is the right policy for the right time. The public sector/low pay sector is going to take the biggest hit in the next few years. Wages static, recruitment frozen or declining, insecurity all round. Why the hell would low paid workers want to put their neck in the mortgage noose in the next few years ?

What we need to do now, is to replenish and increase the quality of social housing stock, and have good affordable homes for rent by low paid/public sector workers. If the last 12 months have taught us anything, its surely that mortgages and home ownership aren't the be all and end all for everyone ?
22

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:08:54
19. The Strategist,

You obviously have little idea of how much cash private home ownership pumps into the economy.

Home owners spend money to improve their major asset unlike Council tenants who wait for prolonged periods to have basic repairs carried out.
23

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 01:11:10
Jullian

I didn't read #17.

I suppose you guessed that.
24

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:16:19
24. Vivas

Only losers believe that perpetual renting is the way to live!

Generally speaking, over the long haul, homes rarely lose value, ergot when the mortgage is paid, you own an asset!

Renters, regardless of economic ability, have nothing to show after a lifetime of renting. Not the smart way to go, if you can do otherwise!

25

Cynicus Unbound,

19/10/2009 01:16:41
"2#Justin Timber-Thickie.
We really must get you signed up for the next Olympics so you can bore for Scotland"-#9, Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim

What a Rhum comment.

If we're talking Olympics then it's Team GB, not Scotland, that Rufus would bore for. And he wouldn't have it any other way. Would you, Rufus?
26

Julian.,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 01:18:26
#19 The strategist

Between 1980 and 2009 there was a 560% increase in house prices

Between 1951 and 1980 there was a 1099% increase in house prices.

Hardly conclusive evidence that the right to buy introduced in 1980 fuelled a property boom.
27

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 01:18:28
#25 Vista, - "Home owners spend money to improve their major asset unlike Council tenants who wait for prolonged periods to have basic repairs carried out."

They borrowed the money and encouraged by the lenders continued to borrow more and more as the "value" of their asset increased.

Once they reached their limit and the house prices crept beyond the reach of the would be first time buyers....need I continue?

28

Julian.,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 01:23:24
#23 The Col,

Yes, but would the rebuild cost really have been that much more than what they sold the houses for? Remember rebuild cost is nearly always at least 25% below market value.

Even if there was a small taxpayer subsidy, wasn't it worthwhile as a social objective?
29

Allan(handofgod137),

19/10/2009 01:23:49
Just a shame that the gnats aren't ruling out trumps "right to buy" the land and houses of the native Scots who don't wish to move to make way for his golf course.
30

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:28:47
30. The Col. of Monte Cristo,

Nobody ever gave a believable cast iron guarantee that you could get into home ownership on a shoe string! That is the major reason people get into trouble. However, the benefits of home ownership remain!
31

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 01:29:27
#25Vista, 19/10/2009 01:08:54


You obviously have little idea of how much cash private home ownership pumps into the economy.

Home owners spend money to improve their major asset unlike Council tenants who wait for prolonged periods to have basic repairs carried out
--------------------------
What a stupid argument. The wealthiest do not spend, they invest and if the poorest are tying up half their income on a 120%, 25 year mortgage they are not spending much either. If they replace the windows and doors from another loan on their house value they could lose it all when the Tories threaten a wage freeze.
32

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:34:06
23. The Col. of Monte Cristo,

Come on! You're joking aren't you. "quality" and "council house stock" in the same sentence. You need to move around more! :}
33

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:40:51
34. Jimmy Fae the West,

Yes, you obviously don't understand either. It isn't the wealthy that buy most houses. It's ordinary people who want to do the best they can for themselves and their families, the best way they know how. Sensible buyers seem to manage o.k. but nobody ever said buying a home was easy.

You need to move around more too!
34

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 01:41:32
#35Vista, 19/10/2009 01:34:06
Come on! You're joking aren't you. "quality" and "council house stock" in the same sentence. You need to move around more! :}
___________________________________

Oh dear? Council stock are built to far higher standard than private homes. The Private builders tried to offload some unsold stock to the Councils. It cost a small fortune to rebuild in the minimum standards needed.
35

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 01:43:45
#29 Julian

People were buying a greater proportion of half-price houses in the Thatcher era and inflation was rampant in the 60's and 70's.

So it would be fairly difficult to make any accurate deductions on the hoof.

#31 Julian

The problem was that it was jumblesale, the good stuff was snapped up and the councils were left with the dross.

The right to buy made it folly for the councils to build new houses that would end up being sold for a fraction of their cost.

Government assistance to get on the so called housing ladder would make sense to me, as long term renting tends to be more costly than purchase and councils have never run their renting operations at anything other than a loss.

What has happened with this unplanned free for all is that housing at the lower end of the scale has regressed almost to the standards of the 1930's.



36

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 01:45:40
# 36Vista, 19/10/2009 01:40:51
34. Jimmy Fae the West,

Yes, you obviously don't understand either. It isn't the wealthy that buy most houses. Sensible buyers seem to manage o.k. but nobody ever said buying a home was easy.

You need to move around more too!
_________________________________________

You need to learn which type of people build property portfolios! It is not the tenants of Social landlords.
37

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:49:02
34. Jimmy Fae the West,

You have been sniffing green ginger for too long.:)

For what it's worth, Abraham Lincoln once said, "Common looking people are the best in the world.That's why the good Lord made so many of them!"

Ordinary people long to better themselves!
38

Vista,

19/10/2009 01:53:46
34. Jimmy Fae the West,

Question? In your mind has owning a house become a "Property Portfolio."
39

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 01:54:07
I can't believe I am on here defending councils...Generally run in my lifetime, both politically and administratively...By people I would like to see boiled in oil.
40

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 01:56:01
# 40Vista, 19/10/2009 01:49:02
34. Jimmy Fae the West,

You have been sniffing green ginger for too long.:)

For what it's worth, Abraham Lincoln once said, "Common looking people are the best in the world.That's why the good Lord made so many of them!"

Ordinary people long to better themselves!
---------------------------------

OMG! is this Tory or Labour policy which states that no one can better themselves as Council tenant?
41

Julian.,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 01:56:02
#38 Col

I think we can safely say that there's no evidence the right to buy fuelled the property boom.

But to ditch this policy just because the prices people got the houses for were too low is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I thought you said you didn't want to foot the bill for these people to get houses by selling them off cheap. Surely helping them with a deposit or whatever on a private house is tantamount to the same thing.

Personally I don't think that policy would work. You'd just be propping up an already overinflated private market and most people on low incomes would need a substantial helping hand. Much easier to sell them a council house at a bit below market value allowing them to get a mortgage with no or little deposit.

42

Vista,

19/10/2009 02:02:00
43.Jimmy Fae the West,

Your a sick person. Get help before it is too late!
43

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 02:09:45
#44 Julian

I can't say that I have given it a great deal of thought but I think I would favour a guaranteed one shot shared equity scheme, that did not involve paying rent on the government slice.

Returnable on sale of the property.

I suspect measures would have to be taken to suppress house price inflation, whether that was a supped up capital gains tax or a capping of percentage price increase per anum, or some other means.

Would depend on administrative costs, effectiveness and fairness to owners who had improved their property.
44

Dougie Dougla,

19/10/2009 02:14:43
If council houses are sold at the market rate rather than a deflated (taxpayer assisted)rate the message is quite simple:-

If you want to buy a house that's not a problem - go right ahead and buy one - you just ain't going to buy a state subsidised council one. Right to buy was a Tory policy that had little to do with personal ownership rather than political ideology. As an owner of a home why would I want to subsidise a council home owner to buy a cheapy? - let them buy one in the same market as the rest of us. This then lets the stock of publically owned housing be used by those in need.

Alos, if you assume that council houses are sold at market rates the closing of this loophole will only increase demand for private builds.

In summary this protects the stock of public housing and increases demand for private housing thus boosting the construction industry. Very simple and effective policy from the SNP - correcting an idealogical Tory con.
45

Vista,

19/10/2009 02:28:04
47. Dougie Dougla,

"If you want to buy a house that's not a problem - go right ahead and buy one - you just ain't going to buy a state subsidised council one. Right to buy was a Tory policy that had little to do with personal ownership rather than political ideology. As an owner of a home why would I want to subsidise a council home owner to buy a cheapy? - let them buy one in the same market as the rest of us. This then lets the stock of publically owned housing be used by those in need."

I'm sorry Muppet,

If you have paid rent every week for a basic council accomodation and many years later you are given the opportunity to buy it at a rate below market value, then who has actually subsidised the purchase?
46

HMNP,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 02:29:18
I see the Brit Nats are at their usual nonsense, so the tax payer funds council housing & then sells off all the desirable stock on the cheap & the Brit Nats think thats is ethical, you lot get better all the time, it's like listening to Goebals at Nuremberg with you lot.
47

HMNP,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 02:43:06
Is this paper edited by Special Branch or some covert London based group, it is quite simply disgusting with it's anti-Scottish drivel & as for those Brit Nats that mouth off their subservient views, they are class A lackey's
48

Dougie Dougla,

19/10/2009 02:56:26
Vista I was going to give you an explanation but will not waste much of my time.

Simple economics are obviously beyond a labour benefit monkey but perhaps try asking a private landlord for a discount on buying his property because you rented his property for a few years. LOL.

Dimwitted posting Vista

49

Dougie Dougla,

19/10/2009 02:59:50
HMNP @ 50

It would be laughable if they weren't completely serious. Just bear in mind which party oversaw the largest financial regulatory failure in the history of the market, also which party sold the nations stock of gold at the bottom of the market. Thanks Gordon, thanks labour.
50

Royster,

19/10/2009 03:16:15
The problem with the end of right to buy is that it gives back the estates to chavs who have no interest in maintaining the property. The councils then gets hammered for repairs and maintenance and, in return, gets little in the way of revenue. If the council tries to raise rents, howls of protest. Sell off all social housing.
51

Royster,

19/10/2009 03:20:38
#6. LoL. It's all puffery. If you think Scotland is going to end up like some squeaky clean nordic state on SNP independence, you're sadly mistaken. Remember when Labour got rid of pub licencing hours, the idea was that we'd all end up sipping our drinks and discussing philosphy in turtle-necked sweaters like they apparently do on the continent. Didn't work out as planned, did it?
52

Vista,

19/10/2009 03:35:18
Waste of time commenting to the "Give it me free conference" or the "I'm entitled sub-committee".

You can never turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.
53

HMNP,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 03:48:43
Ah Royster, still defending the British state no matter what, I don't know about a Nordic state & certainly there would be no easy ride but, we will get independence that's is for sure it's just the amount Scotland looses before we get there that is is the pity.
Vista # 48 the overwhelming majority of houses that have been bought in the last 20 have been immediately after the five year rule that is five years after first renting, that perod is hardly long enough to remotely pay off the costs to the tax payer, you are defending the indefendable just to be anti-SNP & no other reason.
54

mark mccann,

19/10/2009 03:51:06
Eddie Barnes, you really ahve sunk to the bottom of the cesspit, I thought Maddox was bad.

"THE SNP gave a clear signal yesterday of its intention to roll Scotland back to the left, as it closed its party conference unveiling new policies boosting the power and scope of the state."
How is that going back? Are you saying moving to the right is going forward?

"Since its introduction, almost half a million homes for rent in Scotland have been sold at a discount. However, in recent years, the policy has been blamed for causing a shortfall in council housing stock, leading to huge waiting lists for people wanting to get a council house."
I'm confused, so your saying Nicola Sturgeon's doing a good thing now?

I had to leave my birthplace because of the lack of social housing, I couldn't afford the extortionate, holiday home rate that everybody charged. In my town not one council house has been built in the last twenty years but plenty of private homes to feed the affluent and retired.

"THE SNP's Westminster campaign team was nearly wiped out yesterday. Party organisers arranged for all their 59 candidates to pose on a foot bridge over the swollen River Ness. With the weight of so many nationalists on board, however, the bridge began to sway alarmingly, prompting some of the more fearty candidates to dash for the shore."
Remember the bouncy bridge over the Thames? They had to fix that cause it was too scary, at least most of the SNP hung on. Really though, when a supposed highbrow broadsheet resorts to this kind of mindless reporting, you know you need a new political editor.

Hang your head in shame Mr Barnes, you're not clever, you're certainly not funny and you're definitely not a journalist.
55

Royster,

19/10/2009 03:54:21
#57. So where were you living before you had to move away from your birth place? Do you parents own a home?
56

Dekester,

Canada's wetcoast 19/10/2009 03:54:49
Honestly folk's. How can anyone be so dim. A famous King once said something like this " A man without land is no man at all" please some one give me the correct quote.
I was in my home town on Scotlands east coast earlier this year, and the " cooncil hoose's" were disgusting. Honestly, they were third world like.

Near everyone should aspire to some form of home ownership. I know that is not possible for everyone. However property ownership is where it is at. Do you know any rich guy that doesn't own multiple properties. How about your beloved politicians.

Are they not all in do do. Over Second, and third home expenses.
Grow up..and get with. Renting is for the duped,lazy or unfortunate.

All the best.
57

HMNP,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 03:54:58
Well said Mark Mccann, spot on lad!
58

Royster,

19/10/2009 03:55:29
#56. Nothing wrong with defending the Bristish state whihch has kept us free for so long. Still selling snake oil no matter what?
59

mark mccann,

19/10/2009 04:24:47
Royster, if you must know, my parents had their own problems surviving up there. My mother was a nurse and she had to live in private rented houses while she brought up 5 children, when she retired she left the area and managed to scrape and borrow enough to buy a (guess what) ex council house in the Black Isle, my father was disabled from an accident and was unable to work, he was a teacher and as we lived in such a rural place was allowed to rent a small home from the ed auth.
I don't believe in burdening my already knackered parents with my wife and I, just to live in the same area. Judging by your posts Royster, I doubt you share the same beliefs.
60

Royster,

19/10/2009 05:33:35
#62. Apologies. That's the downside, I suppose, to living in a beautiful part of the country. I went down to London and it was the same there. Years of rental money down the drain.
61

overton,

balmedie 19/10/2009 06:26:10

Looks like everyone is correct about Alex Salmond i.e. he's a wee fat Commie.

The SNP seem to be set on wrecking our indigenous industries, our defence and our good relations with our immediate neighbours as well as those with the US.

With their arrogant assumption that they can't lose at the next election they think that they can walk over anyone who disagrees with them.

Well, the way that they are heading, at the next election they will be in for a bit of a wake up and if Salmond survives he won't be such a smarmy smart Alec at minister's question time.


62

Phil C,

19/10/2009 06:31:13
This is a mistake by the SNP. Stop buy to let, yes. Build new council houses, yes. But don't take away the right for people to own their homes.
63

Boy Wonder,

19/10/2009 07:11:13
At last ... a policy from a political party I can support. I NEVER agreed with the Tories on right-to-buy! Low-rent housing will always bne required in this country because of the financial and political system it embraces.

There are plenty of houses to buy and not enough to rent! Look at Edinburgh's council housing waiting list ... over 25,000 at last count!

We need more hoiusing stock, especially for people who have lost everything in the recent economic downturn!

Or is it wrong to have a conscience these days??

Shame on you who turn up your fat noses at those in need!
64

on holiday in Scotland,

Bad Marienberg 19/10/2009 07:17:06
#27
"Renters, regardless of economic ability, have nothing to show after a lifetime of renting. Not the smart way to go, if you can do otherwise!"

Who once said "Rent what you don't need, buy only what you need"? I think it was a multi-millionaire.

Anyhow, Where does your job take you tomorrow? Will you have one tomorrow? Buy or rent?

Buy, own the place and let the government inherit because you've got no offsprings?

Security for old age - need a new roof? A new heating because energy bills soar? No chance to get a mortgage any more because nobodyill inherit property and morgage? Living in a ruin?

Buy or rent? Lifetime achievement? It should be up to each one of us to decide himself / herself - provided the opportunity to buy still exists.
65

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 07:18:15
Well done Nicola!

A Scottish solution to a Scottish problem.

This is the reason why many of us supported the SNP in the first place.
66

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 07:22:01
Yet another Scottish state-subsidy junkie party.
67

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 07:24:25
We expect the state to heat our relatives homes. We expect the state to give us a new fitted kitchen...
68

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 07:25:39
#64 Overton

"Looks like everyone is correct about Alex Salmond i.e. he's a wee fat Commie"

...At least the citizens of the USSR had the right to by their accommodation from the state.
69

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 07:31:37
71 The Tin Man

There appears to be a whole plethora of right wing parties who would welcome your vote.

70

Soosider,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 07:36:30
A sensible policy for Housing, the reality is that most of the decent councils houses have been bought, however the councils (ie the tax payer) are still left with the payments for those now sold at a knock down price. The councils and Housing Associations have been unable to build new social rent houses.
"A move to the left" more like a move to common sense
71

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 07:41:23
70 The Tin Man

Who would you prefer your party’s policies to be associated with, Ghandi or the Orange Lodge?
72

Canis Majoris,

TEXAS 19/10/2009 07:46:56
Council Houses belong in the 19th-20th century. No progress there.
73

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

19/10/2009 07:47:51
"With the weight of so many nationalists on board, however, the bridge began to sway alarmingly,"

Sigh. An opportunity missed to raise the average IQ by 10 points at a stroke.

The story is excellent news. The Nats have just put a large stretch of clear tartan water between themselves and the bulk of the electorate.

Well done!
74

Foresight,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 07:53:41
I believe in an independent Scotland but I do not believe in a SOCIALIST SNP. How do I resolve this dilema.?
75

jdships,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 07:54:32
Nothing new in this story surely ?
Everyone knows SNP = left wing socialist.
Everyone knows that should there be "independence" all SNP MSP's will stand as Labour candidates .
Then , politically, it's back to 1997/2010 .
What a thought !!

Trust the "Fat Controller" et al ? If I don't trust Brown/Blair et al why should trust him .
They will soon be "singing from the same hymn sheet "
76

,

19/10/2009 07:54:58
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77

,

19/10/2009 07:57:03
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78

,

19/10/2009 07:58:05
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79

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 07:58:59
76 Group Captain
"With the weight of so many nationalists on board, however, the bridge began to sway alarmingly,"
----------------------------

None of the unionist parties would have had that problem to deal with as very few of them ever turn up for their conferences.
80

,

19/10/2009 08:03:48
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81

,

19/10/2009 08:08:13
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82

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19/10/2009 08:14:10
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83

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 08:14:33
(#1) – (Allan(handofgod137)) –What is it about the way the SNP are running things which makes you believe they wish to run Scotland anywhere near to the standards of a third world country?

(#2) – (Justin Timbercake) – What is it about the way the SNP are running things which makes you feel they wish to take Scotland back to anywhere near to the standards of the dark ages?

(#3) – (Yok Finney) –Can you prove that Allan’s post at #1 is the politics of envy and not that of concern?

What makes you believe that everyone would rather live in Spain than here?

Do you prefer Spain to Scotland?
84

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 08:19:45
#69 - Tin Man - Subsidy junkies??

Ok, what’s the subsidy here, pay well below market rent for five years then buy your rented council owned house at a discounted rate.



85

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 08:21:11
Are we in for a new fall in house prices if self certification is banned?

86

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 08:24:00
#87 Shoull have added this was the Tories buying votes and manipulating the electorial makeup in areas (just like they did in Westminster council).

Trad Labour members/voters must be fuming that this is a SNP policy!!



87

Rosscobhoy,

19/10/2009 08:27:59
Ending right to buy is not the way forward. Forcing local authorities in put the majority of the cash that comes in from right to buy into building new social housing would have been a better option.
88

aljok.23,

The world 19/10/2009 08:33:53
A poignant moment in the governorship of the SNP party. Possibly the best policy they will have ever implemented. Extremely well done to the only team who seems to have any kind of vision.
89

,

19/10/2009 08:34:41
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90

Hector the Red,

19/10/2009 08:36:59
A lot of people here have not read the article properly or nrver read it and just went into their usual Anti-SNP rant.
This policy will only affect those people new to public housing, not those aleady in them.....in other words a very......very......small amount of people affected.

"However, new tenants and those coming back into the social rented sector will no longer be able to take advantage of the scheme. People entering newly built homes have already had their right to buy removed. Only those tenants already in homes will still be able to buy them."

"There are currently 600,000 households in council homes in Scotland"

Seems like a sensible approach to me. Let's face it those people currently in the 600,000 households would have already bought their property if they wanted to or could afford it.....they obviously don't.

The policy also takes out the loophole of people using council houses as a stepping stone to get on the property market and will also increase the stock of social housing availiable to those who need it mot.

Win...Win....situation!
91

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 08:38:00
3 Yok Finney
"Spain has a socialist party for every day of week, and what Brit wouldn't rather live there."

Please tell me what these socialist parties are doing for unemployment in Spain - currently running at 17%.
92

Rambo The Jambo,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 08:38:02
# 84 Union Jock

Interesting oxymoron. What does rolling up one's trouser leg have to do with playing the flute?

You are confusing Freemasonry with the Orange Lodge, two separate and unconnected institutions.

Most Freemasons want nothing to do with the Orange Lodge.

93

AIasdair,

19/10/2009 08:43:19
One day unionists call the Nats tartan tories, and the next they accuse them of dragging us too far left.

Dear oh dear - how confusing it must be these days, realising that the old lies aren't working anymore.
94

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 08:43:43
Well, that's it then. One moment you have a pro-EU, pre-business social democrat party, next minute you have an anti-EU, anti-business state-socialism party akin to Labour in 1979. Weird - nu'oldSNP!

#87 Nitton

Ok, what’s the subsidy here?

Pay the State well below market rent for ever, including fitted kitchens etc, etc, etc.

This party is just pandering to the mindset created by one-party Scotland. 'Vote for us - we are more labourer than labour'.

Isn't it a bit strange that MSP's get us to pay the morgage interest on their property investments instead of being given free council house accommodation in Edinburgh?

95

AIasdair,

19/10/2009 08:45:14
#92, Ben Thehoose - hilarious stuff. Today's award for least appropriate and most idiotic reference to Naziism is winging its way to you.
It's early in the day, but I'm confident you've won.
96

Royster,

19/10/2009 08:48:13
#98. Of course it's appropriate. There's nothing liberal about the SNP.
97

Seannair,

Oban 19/10/2009 08:49:50
You can't be benthehoose of there isn't one within reach.
There are many former Council houses in Oban and across the Western Highlands that will, around this time of year, become silent and empty, as the home letting season comes to a close. At the same time in Oban and across the West Highlands be a large and growing list of homeless persons joining the list seeking social housing.
Mary Scanlon and Eddie Barnes may be comfortable with that scenario. Many find it obscene.
98

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 08:50:13
68 Dun Eidann
"A Scottish solution to a Scottish problem."

Surely we should be looking for the right solution irrespective of whether or not it is Scottish.
99

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 19/10/2009 08:50:46
Re Ben Thehoose (#92) : in a speech in the early 70s, the Duke of Edinburgh claimed that "it was nationalism and socialism that gave us nazis and fascists".

Labour's prominent anti-devolutionist MP, Willie Hamilton, later stated that it took a "political ignoramus" to make such nonsense out of Hitler's use of the term National Socialism.
100

The Ayrshire Bard,

19/10/2009 08:52:12
The simple fact is that pride of ownership means your own property will be maintained in far better condition than one that belongs to a council or landlord.
The more privately owned houses on a council scheme means a tidier environment and more likely to be trouble free.
101

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 08:57:45
(#5) – (Charles Linskaill) –Do you believe this move to be one that would be unpopular with a significantly high number of Scots?

Do you believe that this move could jeopardize the number of seats the SNP could win in the general election?

(#10) – (The Col. of Monte Cristo) –In what way did right to buy push first time buyers beyond reaching the first rung of the ladder?

(#13) – (Jimmy Fae the West) –Are you calling one million households who bought those houses Tory Mortgage marketeers?

Was this meant to be an insult to the buyers of those houses?

Is that not a large number of votes the SNP cannot afford to offend?

How many votes would those houses account for in an election?
102

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 08:57:53
8 There is nothing to prevent people buying homes if they can afford a mortgage to do so,including those former state sector houses which are already privately owned.Government has a duty to make housing available to those who cannot afford this ie first time and probably only ever renters who are a far more vulnerable section of society.
This was once traditional Labour Party policy,and its comical to see even the so called pretendy socialist New Labour Party attacking what many in that party would have still as policy, but they too have been ousted and dont have the brains to get out of the New Labour (Same old Tory)Party.
The Tory party we expect to attack this.
I wonder which was modelled on which (The Tories and the Ferengi I mean).There's not much to choose between them if you ask me.
103

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 08:58:48
According to the article :
"Under the SNP, the private sector has already been barred from providing GP services, hospital cleaning and catering."

This strikes me as a rather dangerously fundamentalist approach. Why barr such activities? I am not saying that private contracting of these services must take place but why not keep an open mind and state that we look for the best arrangement whether it is public or private.

If the management of a particular hospital feel that they can get a better arrangement by contracting cleaning companies to do the cleaning, why not let them do so?

104

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:01:49
101 If you live in Scotland everything is Scottish, even you George.
105

Ben Thehoose,

19/10/2009 09:02:31
#103 Colin W

You choose odd bedfellows: Chooky Embra, and Red Wullie.

Do broaden your reading. The Tartan Taleban even has a minority group to pick on and blame for all our troubles. Just watch out for references to Butcher's Aprons, white settlers and the auld enemie, etc.

Oh, and I avoided using the N word. You drew your own conclusions. That is telling!
106

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 09:08:29
(#10) – (The Col. of Monte Cristo) –Is it not the case that taking away the right to buy also takes away the ladder altogether for some people wanting to buy into property?

Is it not also the case that taking away right to buy also takes away that first rung of the ladder you were talking about for many?
107

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:10:40
108 All our troubles ? Surely the Union is something you should be defending?
The SNP has always recognised that Scotland will get what she votes for, she cannot avoid doing so in a democracy, and the solution and any blame or criticism lie within her own border.
It does not matter what you claim.That is the reality!

The people of Scotland are wakening up to the lies that have been perpetrated for years by Unionists for their own personal gain at the expense of their fellow countrymen.We did indeed get what we voted for!
108

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:11:13
They always have been a bunch of loony lefty morons. They are even worse than stupid labour and we would be well rid of them.

Why do people vote for such madness? It really is beyond me.

Oh yes, they want independence for Scotland all right---independence so that they can turn it into a communist state of oppression.

Have some sense. Kick them out at the next election.
109

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 09:15:37
106 UG


The cleaning is cheaper because it isn't done properly.
Leads to more disease. Than more expense to tackle disease. Pay cheap to buy dear.

Should let council tenants buy house after 20 years. They have paid for the house by then. As long the money raised goes to build more housess. Otherwise no mixed tenants. This can create gettoes where no one wnats to live.

One of the reasons given for prosperity in London S/E was house building in the 1930's.

Buying their council house (after years of tenancy) can enrich working class.
110

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 09:17:04
108 BTH

How about 'religious bigots' or 'inbreds'
111

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 09:17:17
Quite surprised at the venom being put on the SNP for this policy from unionists, even the right wing ones.

They are quite happy to susidise the market, state interference etc etc. Oh the irony.

Anyone remember the guy that tried to buy his council house, the one in the middle of Princes Street gardens?

As for the property ladder some folk are trying to bring into this debate. Rubbish, that "rung" could only ever stepped on by current council tennents, and did not affect the majoity of first time buyers who are now prevented, due to cost, from ever getting on it.





112

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:18:39
106

You said :

"why not keep an open mind and state that we look for the best arrangement whether it is public or private".

They did George ! Thats why they have done what they have done.
113

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 09:20:18
#108 - Even by your normal standards you have really gone over the top today. Whats wrong, somebody forgot to change your adult nappy today?



114

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 09:20:44
106 Ugly George

I see nothing wrong in having effectively managed in-house ancillary health services where all the investment goes into the provision of those services and none is siphoned off into profit for a few already well-heeled individuals in the private sector.

Every £ removed by the private sector is a £ less going towards the well-being of those being treated by the NHS.

You may see this as a “dogmatic” approach; I see it as common sense.
115

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:25:48
11 The not insignificant thing wrong with what you say is the SNP are the largest party in Scotland where you are what exactly?

A communist state of oppression? Have you any idea how much damage you do to the Tory party uttering total drivel like that?

Keep it up!
116

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 09:26:13
(#16) – (Julian) –Did the five times their salaries only apply for a small percent of mortgages?

What percent of the mortgage market did it account to?


(#19) – (The Strategist) –Is it not the case that right to buy had time limitation placed on them to reduce the quick sale?
117

SlyFifer,

Somewhere South of Fife 19/10/2009 09:29:01
There's simply nothing wrong with the SNP drifting off to the left, it is after all, their natural home and there is nobody else occupying that house since New Labour up sticks and headed right. Truth is though, there are a whole lot of members of the SNP who may feel disenfranchised by this drift, not uncommon in such a broad church with a single goal of independence in mind. Problem for Scotland is, after the next General Election will Scotland replace one party government (Labour) simply with another (SNP) ?, in coalition with either Conservative or rump Labour ?. Then if Holyrood were to have a majority SNP government after their elections Scotland would still be governed by a one party state. Not good for democracy. That is why the Scottish Democratic Alliance has been created to provide an alternative to the SNP for those who are more moderate in their views and who still share the goal of independence. The SDA though also advocate independence from the EU which would further still Scotlands road to recovery.
www.scottishdemocraticalliance.org
118

Billy the Fish,

19/10/2009 09:31:48
God help Scotland
119

Mèths,

19/10/2009 09:34:38
Billy the P­ish

"God help Scotland"

Don't need him - we've got Salmond.
120

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 09:35:09
#123 - God save us from idiots like you, blowing things out of proportion.
121

Unimpressed one,

19/10/2009 09:36:24
Seems like a sure vote winner, not. That and a punitive climate bill will really stoke the voters.
122

Linmal,

Livingston 19/10/2009 09:36:55
The more I hear about the SNP, the less I want to vote for them and I fear for my country.
123

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 09:37:05
122 SlyFifer

You appear to be a fifth columnist with the sole aim of splitting the independence vote.

The political nature of any post-independence government would be a matter for the electorate at that time to decide.

Little splinter groups such as the one you describe do not assist the overriding aim of achieving independence in the first place.
124

Finnzz,

19/10/2009 09:37:39
Once more the SNP lead and the other parties will follow. It is called common sense and that is something thats been in very short supply until recently.
125

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 09:42:53
#127 - A bit over the top, or is it just scare mongering? Hm, I wonder.
126

gus1940,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 09:43:01
Last week the old hoary chestnut that The SNP were 'Tartan Tories' was dredged up yet again.

This week they are accused of being 'Reds Under The Bed'

Can Barnes, Maddox, their bunch of other Quisling alleged journalists and their faithful daily suppliers of Unionist Press Releases not make up their minds?

Do they really think that the few remaining readers of this pathetic propaganda rag masquerading as a newspaper give the slightest credence to their biased utterances. They must think that we are all stupid and blinkered to the realities - It is they who are stupid.

When will they realise that they are wasting their time - The Glorious Union whose praises they continue to sing is DOOMED.
127

JeannieMac,

19/10/2009 09:43:51
Haha! The Scotsman is so funny (and has such incompetent headline writers. "Left turn to right..." Hilarious)

First you spend the entire article bemoaning the SNP POLICIES and then claim they HAVE no policies.

Lord. Someone competent needs to take over this newspaper. It's a laughingstock.
128

Huntarian,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 09:44:53
Comrades. left turn, by the left, quick march!

A clear signal that Wee Eck and the Knasher are going to be chasing Labour in 2010. I wonder where this leaves some of their best brains such as Duncan Hamilton, Jim Mather and Mike Russell?
129

aljok.23,

The world 19/10/2009 09:51:15
#129 The SNP naturally come up with solutions to all the problems deliberately created by The Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher and their Tories.
The SNP , the only party not in cahoots with Westminster, the only party capable of freeing Scotland from their yoke, the only party that can see fairness and good government as a reality that can inspire a nation to trust in itself and it's policies. Scotland , a nation of people whose outlook and personality shall be displayed to foreign countries as an inspiration for good government.
130

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 09:51:31
133 Huntarian,

It leaves Jim Mather and Mike Russell as cabinet secretaries in the broad church which is the SNP Government.

As far as Duncan Hamilton is concerned, I am not aware that he has any role to play within the administration, so it leaves him wherever he happens to be at the moment.
131

Xena - Warrior Princess,

19/10/2009 09:52:43
All the housing associations have charity status, there are thousands of people renting from these that can't buy their homes.
132

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 09:54:15
#133

"I wonder where this leaves some of their best brains such as Duncan Hamilton, Jim Mather and Mike Russell?"

It leaves them with orders that must be obeyed, without question, at all times.
133

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 09:54:19
# 45Vista, 19/10/2009 02:02:00
43.Jimmy Fae the West,

Your a sick person. Get help before it is too late!
_______________________________________
It is already too late for your dead union!

When the unionists have finished delivering their meaningless platitudes to the dead soldiers of Irakistan and then condemn the soldiers reason for serving of, "Homes fit for heroes" It all becomes clear. Social housing for the poor, first started here in Yorkshire by King Athel,(you might just have heard of Athel's stane ford? home of the Saltire) then again why should you. You despise Scots and all thing Scottish.

Labour and the Conservative BNPs wil only be happy when the poor are cleaning their laundry and houses for a handful of rice!

As your Noble Landed Lord Tebit once said, on yer bike mate!

I hope the SNP introduce this support winning pro-poor anti-Blairist legislation sooner rather than later!
134

Chief King Bonga,

19/10/2009 09:59:19
The SNP dont want people to buy their council houses because they want to keep everyone at the same level, they are just old Labour really.

Scotland with a progressive and dynamic right of centre party and behind free enterprise would be a world beater, for heavens sake look what Labour have done to the UK in the last twelve years, no, whenever they have been in power they have done their best to bankrupt the country, why follow the same route?

Scotland has its own natural resources, and an educated population, so why follow a socialist agenda that has failed everywhere else?
135

JimC,

Kilmarnock 19/10/2009 10:01:33
121 posts and not ONE mention of homelessness or overcrowding and its effects on children’s education. With over 4,000 on the council list in my town, this announcement does not go far enough, we should end RTB for any tenant.
136

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 10:03:33
133 Everybody who joined the SNP knew what a broad church any nationalist movement is by neccessity.If you hope to unite a people the last thing you can afford is to alienate anybody by intention,we already have people like 127 with their thought provoking and informative contribuitions to contend with, who far from being alienated as claimed was never there to begin with.
No one will be alienated because they knew from day one that they joined a party which was itself a coalition of a reincarnation of the Scottish Labour Party called the Scottish Party with a break away from the Tory Party called the National Party (of Scotland).
When you have origins which include people as diverse as socialists Robert Bontine Cunningham Graham and Hugh McDiarmid and on the other wing West Hartlepool born Sir Compton MacKenzie you cannot expect anything other than the broadest of churches.
Independence either benefits Scotland or it does not. What kind of Scotland we become is up to the highest authority in the land...........THE PEOPLE!
137

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 10:05:39
Easy question for those who despise Scottish council tenants.

If the Scottish government add another half a million high quality council houses, does the price of my house go up or down?

Your opposition to protecting the social housing stock (your social housing stock) and housing the poor, needy, homeless, old, young and newly married seems to be based purely on your small minded greed. VOTE SNP!
138

TheSmith,

Kirkcaldy 19/10/2009 10:08:47
I find it really interesting that my parents' friends carp on about their children not being able to get a house through the cooncil, then in the same breath, boast about how much money they've made through buying their own council house.
139

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 10:12:11

Build more


137 TM

What about Gordon Brown. He who must be obeyed. Even if it bankrupts the UK
140

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 10:14:40
139 KB


what about laissez-faire capitalist America, now bankrupt.
141

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 10:14:41
#122:

"There's simply nothing wrong with the SNP drifting off to the left"

No. There's not. Tommy Sheridan and has bunch of ill-educated freaks did that, so did Arthur Scargill and his rent-a-mob donkey jackets.

The problem arises because they happen to be in power.
142

JC1,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 10:14:41
Stracathro - coming into the NHS -main reason is the work there is drying up and the nats want to keep it open as it's in their heartland, so infortunately yuo'll have to travel there for yuor hip and eye ops rather than locally.
Right to buy? most council houses have been bought now. Just reactionary socialist posturing. Is the the housing minister now or did she have no policies of her own to talk about?

What a drab conference- no policy, bizzare sight of kenny compared to gandhi and salmonds usual anti 'westminster' rant embaressing us
143

The Strategist,

19/10/2009 10:14:42
#139

That's just about one of the silliest arguments I've heard. In fact you could argue that when we did have a more extensive social housing system we were also industrially considerably more successful... Point is that there is absolutely no way you could possibly develop any correlation between house ownership and enterprise.

The question you should really be asking is why it was that whilst the banks were prepared to lend you as much as you wanted to buy a house and property developers and landowners profited hugely they were not prepared to support the company birth rate which has fallen during Labour's tenure.

You might also like to compare Labour in Norway to Labour in Scotland and the UK...... Norwegian Labour is a progressive, enterprise supporting party as witnessed by the number of Norwegian companies now dominating the energy sector.

UK/Scottish Labour only supported the financial services sector and indeed Brown's refusal to allow the BoE to take into a house price inflation and raise interest rates accordingly was one of the main reasons house prices became unaffordable for many in the essential services sector and youngsters trying to get on the so called housing ladder. And that is why we need more social housing not less.
144

JC1,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 10:14:49
Stracathro - coming into the NHS -main reason is the work there is drying up and the nats want to keep it open as it's in their heartland, so infortunately yuo'll have to travel there for yuor hip and eye ops rather than locally.
Right to buy? most council houses have been bought now. Just reactionary socialist posturing. Is she the housing minister now or did she have no policies of her own to talk about?

What a drab conference- no policy, bizzare sight of kenny compared to gandhi and salmonds usual anti 'westminster' rant embaressing us
145

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 10:17:45
Re # 143TheSmith, Kirkcaldy 19/10/2009 10:08:47
I find it really interesting that my parents' friends carp on about their children not being able to get a house through the cooncil, then in the same breath, boast about how much money they've made through buying their own council house.
________________________________
Lol. Yes and equally stupid is those trying and failing miserably to oppose this policy, are arguing that Council tenants could not better themselves by buying a private house or renting private or even bettering themselves within the high quality council they rent!
146

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 10:22:18
"She also revealed that Stracathro hospital, which the previous Labour-Liberal executive had handed over to an independent operator, would now be returning to full NHS control."
Great news, apparently the contractor has been paid whether or not they had any patients in the hospital. In the first year they were only allocated 18% of the number of patients on the contract, no fault of the contractor but another example of a lucrative deal for the private sector.
147

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

19/10/2009 10:27:57
149 JC1

I note that you claim to be based in Glasgow, my home town.

Perhaps you are aware of the Scottish Government investment into the Southern General Hospital, or more likely, you have no real idea where that is?

148

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 19/10/2009 10:28:19
This shift to the left is gratifying and reassuring and confirms what I have been saying for weeks - that the Scottish socialist republic is now inevitable. O ye of little faith. Vote SNP for socialism. Vote SNP for republicanism.
149

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 19/10/2009 10:30:57
Great news about Stracathro but not new - NHS Tayside announced this in June. Still, another fundamental shift to the left. The Scottish socialist republic is now inevitable. Vote SNP.
150

Alan B,

19/10/2009 10:41:44
Cannot see who stopping the right to buy is a fundamental drift to the left.
151

Alan B,

19/10/2009 10:44:31
#Ugly George

""A Scottish solution to a Scottish problem."

Surely we should be looking for the right solution irrespective of whether or not it is Scottish."

The problem is we tend to get an english solution to a scottish problem.

152

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 19/10/2009 10:52:13
155

Good morning Alan B. The answer to your query lies in the name of the originator. Vote SNP. We must ditch the right wing English and their monarchy.
153

Mèths,

19/10/2009 10:56:02
Alternative etc

"Tommy Sheridan and has (sic) bunch of ill-educated freaks"

1 Tommy Sheridan: Attended Stirling University and graduated with an honours degree in Economics.
He also obtained a MSc in Social Research at the University of Strathclyde in 2008.

2 Rosemary Byrne: Attended Craigie College and graduated with a Diploma in Education.
Also Jordanhill College where she obtained a DIP.SEN.

Ill-educated freaks? Do your homework you silly buy.
154

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 10:57:02
This is amazing! This is morally right.

"But critics said last night that the SNP's "public sector good, private sector bad" mentality was "misguided", warning that Scotland could miss out on improvements to efficiency and higher standards as a result."

Of course the morons are going to come up with this propaganda garbage. Who said private sector bad? No-one. There are no efficiences when you use the private sector in health care - just look at the US. People in the US are crying out for a public health care system. Americans pay more than anyone in the world for health care and their system is the worst in the developed world.

And by building houses for the private sector the government distorts the supply and demand mechanism. It is not surprise the the countries with the highest levels of home-ownership are the worst hit countries in the global crisis. Countries with high levels are going into depression and countries with low levels coming out of recession. If people want choice then let them buy from the private sector and stop the government from intervening. This is about getting the government out of the private sector. However the morons won't accept that.

No, the SNP are absolutely spot on here. This is sound economics and it is morally correct. Congratulations and thank you SNP!
155

Ben Thehoose,

19/10/2009 10:58:09
The logical alternative to the Union is a Federation.

SNP won't tell you that because the USGB will set the nationalist gas at the peep for a century or more, but its carpet baggers want snouts in the trough and power NOW.

Today we are learning that the Tartan Taleban is a nationalist, socialist and republican party with a desperately poor record on education, Forth road bridge replacement costs, trams, Galashiels railway, etc.

Nae wunner they've never gotten over 17% of the electorate to support them. The Scots are canny.
156

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 10:59:59
(#21) – (Vista) –Do you think that this policy change discriminates against people being able to buy accommodation that are in a financial state to do so?
157

New Danielrober,

19/10/2009 11:06:44
I’m glad the SNP are been responsible and looking at every consideration for social housing. That is a healthy governmental action to take.

I would say though that the big council housing program was more successful than a failure. Millions have been housed and raised in this system, with a surprisingly small degree of failure. After the war housing was needed and it was delivered. By selling off most of these houses local and national civil servants could concentrate on delivering other services.

The selling off of council houses worked, what became a problem was the cheap sale of houses, the lack of rebuilds and then the return to the rental market of the same properties. Fortunes where made by families renting out old council houses, to the private sector at twice the price - subsidized by housing benefit. Taken together this was too much of a wealth transfer, paid for by private home owners to council tenants.

From recent experiences, what seems to have compounded this problem is an attempt, by only a handful of former council houses tenants to rewrite history. - by owning small empires of former council houses. This is an act of business choice, which should not be subsidized by the tax payer any more.

Yet most former council house tenants, have not built property empires and instead have raised there kids in homes which they own. I don’t wish to be in any officials place trying to balance this problem, but shutting down a tenants rights to buy a home and better themselves, because of some property extremists is unfair.
158

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 11:09:37
143 TheSmith,Kirkcaldy 19/10/2009 10:08:47
"I find it really interesting that my parents' friends carp on about their children not being able to get a house through the cooncil, then in the same breath, boast about how much money they've made through buying their own council house."

I know this was the most moronic illusion of the last few decades. The economics works like this: the Queen actually owns the house. The mortgages are given by the banks. Prices go up when you don't tax land and houses. People spend more and more of their money on the house believing that they will have wealth in the form of home equity and will therefore be able to borrow against it. The government needs money but they ain't taxing land/houses so instead they tax labour/industry. Industry therefore becomes uncompetative and manufacturing jobs go abroad. The government then has to borrow a lot of money. That money gets into the economy and people spend it on goods from abroad. The country goes slowly bankrupt. People have to borrow money from credit cards to survive. House prices go to high. People take out bigger mortgages. House prices crash. The mortgages are valued much higher than the houses. The banks crash. The banks then take money from economy in the form of bail-outs. Taxes go up and the money you made from buying your council house is gone plus there are no jobs plus the country and its people are so in debt that your economy crashes and currency plummets because the government printed too much money because no-one would lend it any more.
The country is bankrupt and law and order collapses.
Welcome to Britain. Thanks for the right to buy Maggie!
159

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 11:16:22
Ha, wait till the pound collapses. You think your house is worth less than 2 years ago? You ain't seen nothing yet.

Ah the fools. Didn't anyone tell them that Santa doesn't exist? We need low house prices. That way we keep manufacturing jobs. As house prices go up jobs go and so you cut your own throat.

The lessons have to be learned and the SNP have done that. Thank the good lord. Maybe I will make it back to Scotland one day.
160

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 11:18:10
Re #157W U Merchant, Aberdeen 19/10/2009 10:52:13


Good morning Alan B. The answer to your query lies in the name of the originator. Vote SNP. We must ditch the right wing English and their monarchy.
________________________

Love it! Wind up the council house renting Orangemen and they might be persuaded by you to support a Labour Catholic over any Scottish candidate that can increase the Social housing stock for the first time since Thatch?

With Homelessness on the rise as the sleaze fallen Lib-Labour regime built just six council houses in their last four years and earned a well deserved pat-on-the-back for handing back Scottish money which went to improve Tower Hamlets because McConnell could not find a use for it! Wind up merchant, you are incredible but loads of silly fun! Lol.
161

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 19/10/2009 11:18:42
#160 - Give it a break with your Nazi insinuations, you have already had one post removed, I wont hesiate to get them all taken away.

Post something sensible or shut up.
162

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 11:19:18
160 The LIDS advocated a federation and it had even less support than they did!The only party to have done so and they have dropped it as far as I know.
If you are only learning that the SNP are a nationalst party now that explains a lot.
Not only are they what it says on the tin,so were its parents, the "Scottish Party "and the" National Party" and its first president was a founder of the Scottish Labour Party with Keir Hardie ,(not to be confused with the Bradford Labour Party which Keir Hardie was the first president of)and is now the NEW LABOUR party.
The SNP are NOT a republican party and have never ever claimed to be such.They are clearly monarchist !

They are certainly a broad church who if a tag could be tied would be left of centre.
The term socialist would be innacuarate since many members came from the Conservative Party.IN fact the National Party was a Tory break with Unionism.

You might get further if you say something which is true !
163

ecosseman,

FACT NOT PROPAGANDA 19/10/2009 11:24:21
HAVING SOCIAL HOUSING BUILDING BACK IN VOLUME IS GREAT NEWS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT NEED AN AFFORDABLE HOME.

BUT BEWARE!THE HOUSING MANAGEMENT MUST BE STRONG,AND NOT ALLOW THE NEW BUILDS TO BECOME SLUMS.

THE RENT BOOK REGULATIONS MUST BE MET IN FULL,BY THE TENANTS OR IT WILL FAIL.

THE GET IT FOR NOTHING CULTURE MUST CHANGE,BRING BACK PRIDE TO THE NEW TENANTS BUT MAKE SURE THEY KNOW THE SCORE.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
164

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 19/10/2009 11:26:05
Mary Scanlon, Conservative spokeswoman for health and housing said: "The SNP is wrong. Under the Conservatives, tens of thousands of homes were bought and tens of thousands of affordable homes for rent were built." A misrepresentation. A dozen or so council houses were built. Perhaps at some point in the future, there will be a case for a right to buy, but for now, with a housing shortage, the only council houses needing sold are the ones which no one will ever touch otherwise. Most of those advocating right to buy sound like they've never had to queue for a council house. On this rare occasion, well done the gnats.
165

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 11:26:11
The UK's current budget deficit is 13pc of GDP. Living £175bn a year beyond its means. That means borrowing from abroad. On top of that the population have more household debt than the rest of the EU combined. That means people can't pay off loans. So where is the money going to come from? Tax jobs? What jobs?

No, the government is going to print money. The pound lost 30% of its value in the last year. That means everyone's house has lost 30% of its value in the world market. Every house-holder in the UK got 30% poorer last year. The government has to keep printing. Why? because high house prices drove away manufacturing. So, you can't sell anything abroad to pay off all the debt. That also means you can't afford to buy imports because your currency is losing value. Everything gets more expensive and so you have to build factories and start making things. The problem is there's no money for capital investment because you can't even afford to pay interest payments on the loans you have. This means depression for at least a generation.

Yes, but we can put up interest rates, stop the crash of the pound and get people to save. Then we can use the savings to invest in manufacturing. That's what they say isn't it? Well no because the government and household debt is so high that if you put interest rates up to 10% Britain will be gone forever. There will be social and economic chaos.

Gordon Wilson is right. Britain is bankrupt and Scotland needs out now!
166

Edward,

19/10/2009 11:28:18
Looks like Eddie Barnes is not on the Labour mailing list - Jim Murphy is going to launch Labour's Election slogan Vote SNP get Tory, which bearing this article in mind is going to be hilarious to say the least, as linking the two together means that the SNP are more socialist than Labour, but Labour are more right wing than the Tories
I thank you!
167

Edward,

19/10/2009 11:32:36
The problem with the right to buy (your council house) introduced by Thatcher and maintained by Labour
is that the idea was that councils would use the money to build more houses. The effect didnt happen and couldnt happen as the Tories also cut back on council subsidies based on councils selling off housing stock
Result was and is an ever decreasing social housing stock. Labour continued this.
The SNP are doing the right thing, its a pity that right wing parties such as Labour, who like to think their socialist and pretend to be, havent done this before
168

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 11:34:36
170 If Scotland were to leave now she would rightly be accused of deserting the sinking ship. Labour would accuse us of being here during the good times (what good times I hear you ask)and manning the life boats just because HMS AFLOATBUTONLYJUST has come a cropper.

Sounds good to me WHERE DO I SIGN?

Abandon Ship
169

Finnzz,

19/10/2009 11:35:11
This Holy Grail of house ownership that successive Westminster governments have pushed has directly led to the financial mess the UK is in. With Brown hoping and praying for house price increases in double digits to fuel his false economy, the writing for all was on the wall.
However, Brown has started us back on the same path of ruin. He appears to have only one economic template (as do most Labour leaders)and when that fails, he panics.

170

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 19/10/2009 11:35:27
If giving a tenant the right to buy their council (housing assn?) house is such a good idea, why didn't the Conservatives impose the same rule on privately owned houses?
171

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 19/10/2009 11:37:37
"The best way to deal with homelessness is to build more homes." Inaccurate. The best way to deal with homelessness is to deal with the emotional, social, educational, financial, relational and other reasons why people cannot live sustainably in their own property or in a tenancy on their own or with other people. Perhaps the second best way to deal with homelessness is to build more homes.
172

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 11:38:54
172 Whilst it was certainly SNP policy to ring fence the money from sales and build affordable housing with the money raised,I dont think anyone else ever seriously proposed doing so,although I may be wrong about PLAID CYMRU who probably did,since they were accused of being socialists by the Labour Party !
No fear of Plaid ever accusing Labour of that,is there!
173

frank mcbride,

lusitania 19/10/2009 11:39:48
#139, KB.

You are right!!! All we need to do is look at NuLabour to see the damage that can be done to society by politicians following Thatcherite libertarian social and economic policies.

"My greatest achievement was the birth of New Labour", Margaret Thatcher.
174

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 11:41:03
176 Whilst I recognise what you are saying the homes have to exist before you can put the homeless people in them so the answer is BOTH.
First you build the homes.
175

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 11:41:51
(#170) – (BlackDouglas2) –If the pound has gone down in value does that not make British products more sellable abroad?

176

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 19/10/2009 11:46:37
'SNP left turn as right to buy is ditched.' Misleading tabloidy headline. There may be other reasons why the SNP has gone to the left, but in this case to rent out houses as opposed to selling them is, in and of itself, not necessarily either left or right but rather a pragmatic attempt to deal with a particular situation.
177

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 11:48:03
177 cont

When I say affordable housing I mean of course houses which would replace the housing lost to would be tenants, and built for the purpose of renting (but no doubt the Unionists would have sold them also eventually).
The fact is housing people at all costs is what matters. Whether the houses exist is far more a priority than whether everybody can afford to buy them. Whether they can afford to rent them and whether they exist or not is a better start I would have thought!

The right to buy is only good when the right to rent also exists at least equally.
178

,

19/10/2009 11:49:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 11:50:26
Why does a party who believes it is about to take a country into independence need to change a policy like this one at this time?
180

camster,

glasgow 19/10/2009 11:53:48
169. I was brought up in Aberdeen in the 70s and the council housing estates were dumps. Kincorth, Torry, Garthdee all of them. Now the SNP wants us to have more of them.

The reality is that the SNP are just old Labour in new clothing. I am glad that this is comimg out now as it will stop misguided people voting for the SNP thinking it will help the economy. Now the SNP has decided that government is best at cleaning and cooking food I am just waiting for the nationalisation of my local chippy and my Polish cleaner.






181

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 11:55:20
With the pound going lower sure you can inflate away your debts but only at the expense of your creditors who get really annoyed and stop lending - how do you then balance the budget? You cut services to the bone and increase taxes massively. They ain't doing enough so they'll print even more and go into hyperinflation.

And who is going to invest in Britain with the pound plummeting? If I buy some shares worth one million pounds and then the pound loses 25% of its value in a year, my shares need to go up 25% just to break even.

Na, Britain is an economic basket-case. It's bankrupt and Scotland needs out!
182

,

19/10/2009 11:56:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

,

19/10/2009 12:02:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
184

Jimmy Fae the West,

In The Land of Green Ginger. 19/10/2009 12:02:57
Re 176Paddy McGinty's goat,
"The best way to deal with homelessness is to build more homes." Inaccurate. Perhaps the second best way to deal with homelessness is to build more homes
_________________________

Tee heee! Perhaps the goat thinks building more council houses will exacerbate Labour's policy of of homeless, poverty and destitution? As a poster has already stated, HMS BrITANIC is sinking. The union has struck it's iceberg and the gaping hole is threatening to drown the Scots as all the lifeboats are in London. Either start swimming now or grasp the lifesaver of the SNP!
185

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 19/10/2009 12:03:56
#176 'Whilst I recognise what you are saying the homes have to exist before you can put the homeless people in them so the answer is BOTH.
First you build the homes.'

Not meaning to go too far off topic and also not meaning to split hairs but maybe. We've all seen homes or tenancies (as well as communities) destroyed because some people don't know how to live in them. Better to put some homeless people into supported accomodation first before they go into their own pad or to give them a support worker to enable a successful tenancy/residence. Either that or more residential homeless accomodation or rehab units, something lacking due to lack of funding, competent/qualified staff and Nimby's.
186

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 12:07:04
Meths:

Just because Sheridan and one of his cronies attended University does not make them "educated". No matter how many degrees they might have, they are not educated in the ways of life and are not intelligent enough to realise the fact.

The very fact that they stand for what they stand for proves that. If they had even a modicum of intellect, they would not be indulging in looney politics.

And yes, even the most intelligent people occasionally make typos... ;-)
187

Scottish Stoic,

19/10/2009 12:14:58
I'm not really sure that stopping the right to buy can be viewed negatively.

The experience I have of this policy in my community is that these properties have been sold to landlords who move anybody in and fail to adequately maintain the properties. As this is happening in a large scale with the recent boom in easy credit, it means that once 'good areas' are turned into slums.

188

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 12:16:49
(#170) – (BlackDouglas2) –Did the government have a good alternative worth considering that could have been utilized that might have meant printing more money was not needed?
189

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 12:22:21


185 Camster

Snob

191 AFH

At least Tommy Sheridan and Co stood up for the poor, and didn't put self interest first and become a b(w)anker. Stop warrant sales, taking everything from the poorest. Kept Scottish Government clean.
190

Ggordon,

19/10/2009 12:25:25

What about Housing benefit going to private sector landlords. That could build many council houses, and help create jobs.
191

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 12:26:39
(#170) – (BlackDouglas2) –What is it that makes you believe that high house prices have driven away manufacturing?

Where would this be?
192

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 12:28:00
#188 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:02:31

"Moron comes back for more. What products is that? If you can read then you'll know that Britain lost its manufacturing base because it taxed industry and labour too much - it went abroad."

The UK's principle exports, by far, are chemicals and pharmaceuticals, believe it or not. Cars are also a major export, especially Nissans & Hondas.
193

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:35:50
193 Ewan Randall,19/10/2009 12:16:49
"(#170) – (BlackDouglas2) –Did the government have a good alternative worth considering that could have been utilized that might have meant printing more money was not needed?"

Absolutely. For a start Brown should not have deregulated the city. All the fraudulant, funny 'derivatives' money got into the economy and drove up house prices. People thought they could borrow against their home-equity so they didn't save. People started working in finance jobs instead of making things. The funny money paid their salaries.

That all gone. The house prices are not being marked to market because if the banks tell the truth we'll know they are all insolvent.

Had Brown let the banks fail there would not have been a bail out for the banks. This bail-out money is getting eaten up in terms of commissions and bonuses. Had the government forced an orderly liquidation of the banks instead of printing money and buying toxic assets they would be in a better position to borrow money and invest in manufacturing. All the debt there is now means paying more interest. That means that Brown does not have the ability to raise interest rates to stop inflation and ecncourage saving. Why? Because all the debt he has wracked up and now put on the taxpayer will become far too expensive to pay.

The homeowning democracy was a banking charade. It has destroyed Britain. They are trying to leverage again to go back to where we were but they can't. As they print more, the banks are sucking it up. The people are getting more and more in debt and the pound is dying.

And moron Brown kept telling us we needed more 'stimulus'. Yeh Gordon, you fix the problem of too much debt by increasing the volume of debt. Moronomics. The banks loved it and the rest of us are now their slaves.

Britain is heading back into a feudal state where everyone is an indentured serf to the banks/landlords.

What an utter disaster it is. Get out while you still can.
194

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:39:32
197 The Tin Man,19/10/2009 12:28:00
"#188 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:02:31

"Moron comes back for more. What products is that? If you can read then you'll know that Britain lost its manufacturing base because it taxed industry and labour too much - it went abroad."

The UK's principle exports, by far, are chemicals and pharmaceuticals, believe it or not. Cars are also a major export, especially Nissans & Hondas."

All small potatoe and foreign owned just like the football clubs. You could mention the export of pop music but again tiny.

The UK economy is 70% consumption. Most of that was imports. It borrowed to buy imports from those who produced them. Now the production and the consumption have gone east for ever. There isn't going to be a recovery!

Why are you so enthralled to an economy that you know nothing about?
195

,

19/10/2009 12:40:52
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196

educate,

Lancashire 19/10/2009 12:42:31
So, the loony left are set to take over in Scotland!
All I can say is, don't come knocking on our door when the country goes bust, as it surely will after one or two parliaments.
Socialism does not WORK - as old Abe Lincoln said - you can't make the poor rich by making the rich poor! You will just drag everyone down together.
The Scots exported the best engineers and financiers to the world - pity they did not leave a few more at home.
197

Ben Thehoose,

19/10/2009 12:45:07
A reality check: Britain is not bankrupt. In fact our national debt is lower than at least a half dozen other advanced countries, including USA, Japan, etc.

Homelessness is a tricky one as we have far more empty homes than homeless people.

Second homes are a menace as they pit up the local house prices above 'normal'; yet second homes have also saved many small communities. Several derelict properties around here have been bought and renovated.

Affordable homes are a con trick as each requires a subsidy of some £70k from the public, but the first occupier is then free to sell up later and pocket a neat profit for no work.

Council housing should be means tested for, encouraging the rich to move out and the genuine cases to move in.
198

Miss H,

19/10/2009 12:45:47
There would have been no problem with right to buy if a. tenants paid the full cost of the house and b. houses sold off were replaced.

But neither of those things happened. Houses were sold off at ridiculous discounts and were not replaced.

This has left us with a chronic lack of affordable housing.

The SNP is only doing what is sensible and what Labour should have done years ago.

199

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:48:16
Here is the figure for 2003

"In 2003, manufacturing industry accounted for 16% of national output in the UK and for 13% of employment, according to the Office for National Statistics."

Even if manufacturing went up by 10% because of the pound it would amount to 1.3% of the total jobs.

The loss of revenues from oil and the collapse of the City will not be compensated for by manufacturing. Not in your wildest dreams.
200

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 12:54:14
202 Ben Thehoose,19/10/2009 12:45:07
"A reality check: Britain is not bankrupt. In fact our national debt is lower than at least a half dozen other advanced countries, including USA, Japan, etc."

The level of debt is not the point in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is caused by the inability to pay your debts i.e. defaulting.

The US avoids this problem because it has the reserve currency meaning other countries keep buying its debt and because oil is traded in $ and so to buy oil countries need to buy $s and that holds the price of the $ up.

Japan's population owns its governments debt. The population are savers. Japan has a massive manufacturing base and so can sell products to other countries and so has a good balance of trade.

The UK has none of these advantages. Indeed, even with their advantages the US is on the verge of bankruptcy too.

Sorry that your reality check fell off a cliff.
201

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 12:54:48
(#183) – (BlackDouglas2) –Is it not the case that a nations manufacturing base alters depending on the make-up of that manufacturing base?

Is it not the case then that as long as there is manufacturing in a nation then there is a manufacturing base?

Are you saying that there is no manufacturing taking place?

If you are not saying that and you are admitting there is manufacturing then do you also admit that there is a manufacturing base?

How can British products becoming cheaper abroad make it more difficult for those abroad to buy them?
202

Navvy,

19/10/2009 12:55:25
So the SNP comes clean at last SNP = Nu Old Labour

They have just signed the death knell of a vibrant modern Scotland. Well, they can have it. When the last few wealth creators leave they will see how far their cake goes
203

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 13:06:40
205 BlackDouglas2
The cause of large fiscal deficits and national debt is simple - it means that govts are spending more than they are raising in taxation.

The problem for the UK is that the Labour govt have increase spending enormously and created a huge public sector which needs to be paid for. However the public sector in Scotland is proportionately far larger than the UK average. This huge public sector is not going to be funded from diminishing oil production. The SNP govt's own anlysys shows that, even if oil revenues are included, there is still a substantial fiscal deficit in the Scottish economy.
204

frank mcbride,

lusitania 19/10/2009 13:09:20
#207, Navvy.

I presume your idea of "a vibrant modern Scotland" would be along the lines of those excellent libetarian societies the UK and the US.

My own preference is Norway or any of the Scandanavian countries.
205

Chief King Bonga,

19/10/2009 13:11:32
148
"That's just about one of the silliest arguments I've heard".

I dont know mate, you comparing Labour in Norway to Labour in Scotland is pretty silly!
However, it was not an arguement, it was a point of view, as I was not replying to any poster.
I just think Scotland has so much potintial, a chance to wipe the slate clean, and start again, not make the same mistakes Britain as a whole has made
You have your own oil and gas, a tourist trade that could be incredible with a more dynamic approach, whisky, Golf, and why not turn the old yachtbuilding yards into making white boats like the Germans have in northern Germany building the last three Abramovich yachts.
Why has whisky not been given the `Vodka` treatment to appeal to a younger wider range of consumers?

Instead you seem to want to go back down the socialist route that has failed Britain so miserably.

I hope Scotland achieves its wish for independence, but I dont think this will happen under a socialist government
206

,

19/10/2009 13:14:01
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207

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:15:40
206 Ewan Randall,19/10/2009 12:54:48
"(#183) – (BlackDouglas2) –Is it not the case that a nations manufacturing base alters depending on the make-up of that manufacturing base?

Is it not the case then that as long as there is manufacturing in a nation then there is a manufacturing base?

Are you saying that there is no manufacturing taking place?

If you are not saying that and you are admitting there is manufacturing then do you also admit that there is a manufacturing base?

How can British products becoming cheaper abroad make it more difficult for those abroad to buy them? "

-----------------------------------------------

Getting a bit desperate with the first question arguing over the word 'base'? The second question is a lie.

Firstly, when I say that the UK has no manufacturing base that means that it is not worth talking about. It is far too small to be significant. I already said there was manufacturing taking place but again it is not going to save Britain from bankruptcy.

I didn't say that cheaper British products were more difficult to buy abroad - you just made that up because you lost the argument. Yes, British products will be cheaper but Britain doesn't make enough to make any serious difference to the British economy.

Manufacturing in countries like Germany and Japan dwarf the UK.
208

frank mcbride,

lusitania 19/10/2009 13:17:53
#208, UG.

Here we go again............you peddling economic myth.

The vast bulk of the National Debt is made up from Bank bail-outs, PPP/PFI and the cost of Central Government.

Public sector finance is more than adequately covered by taxation; the debt problem comes from handouts, in their various forms, to Big Business.
209

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19/10/2009 13:23:20
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The Strategist,

19/10/2009 13:23:56
#202

No.. Affordable homes are what they used to be.. When I bought my house in the middle 80s the price was roughly equal to my salary at about £40,000. My salary has of course gone up since then but the "value" of my house has gone up dramatically more. It's now "worth" about £230k..... Sadly I don't earn anything like £230k but more importantly neither do the youngsters that would love to own a house like ours.

House price inflation levels in the 90s and early 2000's were criminal and both Tory and Labour did nothing about it keeping interest rates at a stupidly low level allowing people to take out disproportionately high loans to buy their houses.

Remember - the only real winners have been the banks, the property developers and the land owners and the way the UK Govt is moving it looks like they're going to let them win all over again....... Madness.
211

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bnakrupt 19/10/2009 13:24:06
208 Ugly George,19/10/2009 13:06:40
"205 BlackDouglas2
The cause of large fiscal deficits and national debt is simple - it means that govts are spending more than they are raising in taxation.

The problem for the UK is that the Labour govt have increase spending enormously and created a huge public sector which needs to be paid for. However the public sector in Scotland is proportionately far larger than the UK average. This huge public sector is not going to be funded from diminishing oil production. The SNP govt's own anlysys shows that, even if oil revenues are included, there is still a substantial fiscal deficit in the Scottish economy."

Your wrong Georgie Boy. The reason for the fiscal deficits and borrowing are imperial wars, weapons systems and systemic fraud from the City of London. On the latter, I'll admit that government intervention in the form of printing money to keep the economy afloat after the banks robbed the population is a factor.

There is nothing socialist about the SNP's policy. Socialism would be governments taking over companies for the benefit of the people. That's not quite what's happening in the US and the UK. What's happening is government is taking over companies to favour corporations. That's fascism.

The reason that Scotland's public sector is smaller compared to England's is because it the private sector is too small. Shame we couldn't invest our oil money in our economy!
212

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:27:23
214 union united,19/10/2009 13:23:20

British bonds are going to explode. They are being bought by printed money. The US is giving money to central banks and even setting up overseas offices so that auctions look like they have foreign buyers. They don't. They're buying their own bonds.
213

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 13:28:17
213 frank mcbride
Before you accuse others of "peddling" myths, I suggest that you take some time to study the details and learn about what is going on.

Your lack of knowledge of these issues is evident from your comment:

"Public sector finance is more than adequately covered by taxation; the debt problem comes from handouts, in their various forms, to Big Business."

Research the 2009 budget statement and study it. Once you have done so you will see how wrong you are. "Handouts" to big business -either in the form of eqity purchase or loan guarantees are not included yet the amount of taxation levied is forecast to be £175bn short of expenditure. Your statement "Public sector finance is more than adequately covered by taxation" is completely contradicted by the facts.
214

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19/10/2009 13:30:04
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215

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 13:30:44
216 blackDouglas2
"The reason for the fiscal deficits and borrowing are imperial wars, weapons systems and systemic fraud from the City of London."

As I said th frank mcbride, go and study the budget and you will realise that the effect these items is marginal.
216

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:32:47
218 Ugly George,19/10/2009 13:28:17

That's because income is falling off a cliff. In the US personal income tax is down 21% and corporation tax down 58%. That means that normally tax covers expenditure but in the period you mention it doesn't because the economy is collapsing under the weight of corporate fraud and stimulus and war and weapons.

Sorry to burst the balloon :O(
217

,

19/10/2009 13:35:14
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218

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 13:37:18
216 BlackDouglas2
PS
To give you some idea of how the aspects you quoted are marginal, you will find that total annual defence spending is in the region of £40bn compared to a forecast defict of £175bn. So even if the Army, RAF, Navy, Royal Marines were completely disbanded leaving the UK with no forces at all, there would still be a huge deficit.
219

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 13:40:48
221 BlackDouglas2
"That's because income is falling off a cliff."

The recession has made the situation worse but go and study the projected figures for the next few years which assume economic recovery. The deficits are forecast to be very large up till 2013/14 - the forecasts don't go beyond that date.
220

,

19/10/2009 13:42:40
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221

frank mcbride,

19/10/2009 13:44:01
#218, UG.

Tell us, please, what reliable information is contained in any Budget Statement, 2009 or no?

The reality, as you well know UG, is that the UK Government is mendacious as well as profligate.

Perhaps you AM2sian reading of the UK finances is coloured by your incalculable esteem for that Union because it certainly is not based on the reality of the UK's finances.
The tax take for public services IS more than adequately covered. However, I believe that you will include Iraq, Afganistan, the support cost of these, the shortfall in the London Olympic Budget inter alia as Public Service spending.
222

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19/10/2009 13:46:36
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223

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 19/10/2009 13:51:35
Navvy,19/10/2009 12:55:25

Says:-
"So the SNP comes clean at last SNP = Nu Old Labour

They have just signed the death knell of a vibrant modern Scotland. Well, they can have it. When the last few wealth creators leave they will see how far their cake goes"
_____________________________________________________

I have not read such contradictory garbage since the last Unionist Contribution:-

Just when did this "vibrant modern Scotland" phase start?

Was it before or after we got down to the "last few wealth creators"

Name any of these "wealth creators" that are now going to leave.

224

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:53:08
223 Ugly George,19/10/2009 13:37:18

The reason the deficit is so big is because income from the economy is nose-diving and getting out of control. Normally wars, bail-outs etc would be a nightmare on the accounts but economic death is eclipsing it.

224 Ugly George,19/10/2009 13:40:48
"221 BlackDouglas2
"That's because income is falling off a cliff."

The recession has made the situation worse but go and study the projected figures for the next few years which assume economic recovery. The deficits are forecast to be very large up till 2013/14 - the forecasts don't go beyond that date."

Dream on. Projection from who? The people who said that there wasn't going to be a recession? International investors all tell you these figures are bogus. There isn't going to be a recovery. While the banks are underestimating massive losses on the balance sheet there will be no credit to the real economy. That's why jobs (gone forever) and the consumer have gone awol. With the only weapon left of printing money the next bubbles which are going to burst are housing (2), commercial property, higher education, bonds and the pound. It's a nightmare.

The deficits are going to sky-rocket but there ain't gonnie be a recovery. We're just at the beginning of this mess and at the top of the slope. The recovery will be 'L' shaped.

You keep drinking whatever they put in your tea - recovery aspirins or whatever it is. If I were you, I'd be buying gold and silver - just to make sure you can afford a flight out of bankrupt Britain.
225

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 13:54:18
Rangers and Celtic ( both ugly sisters) I hope.
226

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:59:24
227 union united,19/10/2009 13:46:36
"217. Anyone who talks about a sovereign currency issuer “going bankrupt” is commiting a category error. Such an entity can no more run out of it’s own currency than a bowling alley can run out of points to award bowlers…"

He's correct for once. Zimbabwe isn't bankrupt, it just starves its population to death. Is this an argument for union?


222 union united,19/10/2009 13:35:14
"217. Like the US but unlike Germany, Britain’s debt is denominated in a currency it controls, and for all its troubles, Britain’s economy is still big and strong enough that you can buy interesting things with pounds, unlike, say, the Icelandic krona."

You think the UK still controls its currency? Just wait till the run comes. Britain can buy interesting things? Like what? It's selling the Royal Mint for heavens sakes. As the pound falls it can buy less and with all the debt there is no surplus to spend.

Jeez, why am I spending all this time educating morons?

Bye for now.
227

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 14:00:47
There is complete and utter unanimity across the social housing sector that the right to buy must be withdrawn from new builds, in the same way that there was complete unanimity when the right to buy was amended under the last Housing Act.

So to try and claim that this is some kind of state control freakery is sheer hysterical nonsense and rubbish, which seems to be the hallmark of reporting in the Scotsman.
228

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 14:03:10
232
Correct.. The right to buy was useful for a short period only, but was just another case of Maggie asset selling.
229

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 14:09:24
233 This is the kind of legislation which Labour should have brought in. It is to their eternal shame that they didn't. If John Wheatley was alive now he would be a member of the SNP.
230

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 14:16:24
I also agree completely with the distinction being made between private healthcare and the NHS. Like many tax payers I do not think that profit should be a motive in the provision of NHS healthcare.

Positively public is not just a slogan now, it is a reality. Labour Party members should be deeply ashamed that it took an SNP Govt to make this call.
231

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 19/10/2009 14:23:28
It all comes down to those in power who actualy care about there constituants and not base party politics.
I don't care what/which party does. The individual should be the cryteria, so well done snp.
232

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2009 15:05:16
So the SNP-Tory coalition is probably not going to happen after all?
233

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 15:07:37
#231 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:59:24

Perhaps this may enlighten you on the point of currency devaluation:

6th October 2009

"The plight of indigenous exporters who trade mainly with the UK has reached catastrophic proportions according to the IEA. John Whelan Chief Executive of the Irish Exporters Association (IEA) stated today (6th October);
“Continued action by the Bank of England to depreciate sterling is causing grave damage to our indigenous export businesses who traditionally rely on the UK markets for their sales.’’

The IEA commentary shows that sterling at today’s exchange rate with the euro is 18% below the rate this month last year.
The IEA initial figures for exports to the UK in (July/August/September) Quarter 3 2009, are shown to be down 23% on the same period last year. This represents a significant worsening of the situation compared to the first half of the year when exports to the UK were down 11% over the prior year.

John Whelan stated, “The current sterling to euro exchange rate has made it impossible for many Irish companies to continue trading with the UK.”

He went on to say, ‘’if sterling valuation continues to be undermined by the Bank of England quantitative easing process, then serious long term damage will be done to the indigenous export sector in Ireland and the many jobs depend on it.’’
234

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

19/10/2009 15:10:48
I don't think any party has addressed the real issues with right-to-buy - it is seen purely in a "it's right" or "it's wrong" viewpoint.

Personally I have absolutely no problem with the principle of right-to-buy but I also recognise that the system as it stands is flawed. Clearly if properties are being bought by council tenants that leaves a gap in the council housing stock. Right-to-buy should only happen if housing of an equivalent or better standard is built to replace the stock that is sold off. That clearly has not happened.
235

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach, San Diego, California 19/10/2009 15:17:46
Never confuse the loving macro-intentions of the SNP or any other party or government with the micro-intentions as to housing as if there were no other way to achieve the big picture.
236

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 15:23:53
#231 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:59:24

The UK is Eire's largest export market. The UK is Eire's principle supplier. This is mirrored by Scotland, but much more so.
237

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 15:28:11
#231 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:59:24

Now you have the ideal economic conditions for you to sell-up and move back home.
238

,

19/10/2009 15:31:29
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239

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 19/10/2009 15:35:14
238 Tin Man*

Same goes for every country exporting to the UK...this is generally balanced becuase imports are cheaper...so for core products from the UK..it's much cheaper in Ireland....bonus!

240

,

19/10/2009 15:42:50
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241

,

19/10/2009 15:43:15
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242

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 16:06:23
(#186) – (BlackDouglas2) –How do you increase the cash flow in the economy without increasing the availability of cash in the economy?

Is it not the case that an economy depends on a reasonable cash flow being available?

Is it not also the case that without that cash flow being reasonable an economy will slide into recession?

If you do not have a reasonable cash flow available what sensible options has a government got to increase it?

Is it not the case that as well as printing too much money to ease the economy printing too little can be ineffectual?

What is the best way to measure if you have printed enough money to kick start an economy?

Is it not important to an economy to have inflation?
If so what would you consider to be a healthy rate of inflation?

Is it possible to have a healthy rate of inflation when interest rates are so low and cash flow is not at a beneficial rate?

Is it necessarily a bad thing to increase the rate of inflation?

Is it not also the case that when there is a restricted cash flow lenders also can become reluctant to lend?

Is it not the case that creditor would probably prefer a healthy rate of inflation and a good cash flow rather than having an almost non-existent rate of inflation and a very poor cash flow?

How much extra money would you have to print before you would get to a tipping point where hyperinflation would occur?

How far off from this point do you believe we are?
Can you show us some evidence to back up what you are saying?

Is there not a difference between a British citizen investing in anything British with our own currency and someone investing from abroad who changes their own currency into pounds to invest?

Is it not the case that they are probably able to buy much more with their investment than in the past?
243

Billy1690,

19/10/2009 16:07:37
#243 Naffsky:

That's pathetic.

I suppose you want the Soldier's Song for the SNP?

Away back to Russia
244

fritigern,

Inverness 19/10/2009 16:13:42
Despite the belief of many socialists a council house when sold to its occupants doesn't disappear!! The patronage of allocating council houses has for decades been one of the perks of being a socialist councillor in Scotland. Compared to most of Europe, Scotland already has a ridiculously large percentage of council housing, and all the social problems which go with it, and certainly doesn't need any more.
245

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 16:13:58
247 Has you local library got any economics textbooks?

246

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 19/10/2009 16:14:43
248 Redneck*

Certainly not but you have to admit that unionism is unionism so i think it's time really that they all got together.

For instance the orange order in Scotland should throw open it's doors to unionist catholics...otherwise it's all a bit pointless....or are there unionist catholics and unionist protestants....phew..i'm getting confused...aren't the catholics (a lot in Labour) also vehement supporters of Irish independence?

Anyway...you must have a meeting tonight...sash all folded nice and tidy beside your Charles and Diana commemoration socks?
247

,

19/10/2009 16:46:03
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248

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 16:52:05
251 nevski
"Certainly not but you have to admit that unionism is unionism so i think it's time really that they all got together"

That is a rather fatuous point to say the least. Should everybody who votes Ulster Unionist be lumped together with murderers in the UDA? And should everybody who votes SDLP be lumped together with muderers in the "real IRA" ?
249

ppink,

19/10/2009 16:52:34
I nearly wept with joy when I saw these two vicious Thatcherite policies reversed by the SNP.

As one who was brought up in the Mearns I remember (sometimes terribly) the iconic status of Stracathro.
When a motorbike sweeps past I still mutter 'see you in Strathcathro.'

My family suffered when our land was compulsorily purchased to build council houses after the war. Too bad but it was for the common good. But now these houses are all dormitory villas for the middle class from Montrose and district . That is not what the Labour Party is/was about.

Labour have lost their compassion - villas in Bearsden and ermine cloaks in Kensington.

The SNP have common sense. The union nightmare will soon be over.

VOTE SNP

250

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 16:56:38
#253

Everyone who votes Opus Dai is a member of the SNP, and plays for Rangers.

Join the Masons.
251

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 16:57:06
Sorry.

JOIN THE MASONS
252

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:04:56
238 The Tin Man,19/10/2009 15:07:37

Well, had my siesta and feel like swatting some more flies:

"Perhaps this may enlighten you on the point of currency devaluation"

Your article talks about exports from Ireland. Like I said Britain is an import economy, sorry was an import economy - there's no money to buy anything anymore.

"241 The Tin Man,19/10/2009 15:23:53
#231 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 13:59:24

"The UK is Eire's largest export market. The UK is Eire's principle supplier. This is mirrored by Scotland, but much more so."

Massive market there eh? Shame it too went into speculative housing market overdrive and is nosediving as an economy just ahead of the UK's. No money to buy what few products the UK sells to them.

"Now you have the ideal economic conditions for you to sell-up and move back home."

Sure, as Britain moves out of first world status? Taxes are going up and are going to go up massively and services are going to be cut massively. People's purchasing power is going to be cut as the pound is devalued and there'll be massive unemployment or part-time employment for as long as a generation. It's going to be a state of bank serfs. The entire middle class is going to become poor. Wealth will be concentrated with a small oligarchy at the top and the rest of the people will be working for food. Most already are.

People need to get out of Britain.
253

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:07:24
245 union united,19/10/2009 15:42:50
"Britian has considerably less debt as a % of their GDP than America. It's about time the fearmongers Report Unsuitable246 union united,19/10/2009 15:43:15
GREW UP!"

Ha, a unionist talking about fear-mongering! How the tables have turned. Britain will go down the tubes with the US. The US is held up because foreign creditors subsidise it massively. The UK does not have the luxury of having the world's reserve currency. It's time for unionists to WAKE UP!
254

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 17:07:33
(#198) – (BlackDouglas2) - Did the government have a good alternative worth considering that could have been utilized that might have meant printing more money was not needed since the credit crunch?

What evidence do you have that all of the banks maybe insolvent?

What evidence do you have that any of the banks being maybe insolvent?

If the government had forced an orderly liquidation where necessary instead of printing money and buying toxic assets would this have helped to circulate cash much better around the economy?

If the government had forced an orderly liquidation where necessary instead of printing money and buying toxic assets what would have happen to the money belonging to those who had deposited their money?

Is it not the case that these actions might have reduced cash flow within the economy driving it further into recession?

Are there any internal reasons within the banks that require any of the bonuses to be paid out?

Is it not possible that these bail-outs might have taken into consideration financial restraints on the banks including things like bonuses?

What evidence do you have that debt will be too expensive to pay?

What evidence have you that the pound is dying?

How do you know that stimulus is not a good thing at this time?
255

Ugly George,

19/10/2009 17:10:19
257 BlackDouglas2
"Wealth will be concentrated with a small oligarchy at the top and the rest of the people will be working for food. Most already are."

Really, if that is the case how are there over 20 million private cars on the roads? If most people are "working for food" only how can they afford a car, its road tax, insurance and petrol etc.?
256

The Tin Man,

19/10/2009 17:12:28
#257 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:04:56

Eire's current predicament would be mirrored in Scotland. When your principle trading partner prospers, so do you.

"Massive market there eh? "

Yes, indeed it is. About £28 billion.
257

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 17:21:20
What is wrong with working for food? You sound as fearful as the unionist lot.
258

,

19/10/2009 17:26:54
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259

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 19/10/2009 17:29:17
253 George*

All i know is that an extreme sectarian group is trying to align itself politically with unionist parties who seem willing to accomodate them.

Who next for Labour...the Scottish KKK?
260

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 17:29:52
263 Ha ha. Yeah, become independent by destabilsing your neighbours. Shame the future of your country has become a game to you.
261

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:30:15
247 Ewan Randall,19/10/2009 16:06:23
"(#186) – (BlackDouglas2) –How do you increase the cash flow in the economy without increasing the availability of cash in the economy?"

You give it all to the banks. The banks have false accounts and so are hiding their asset to debt ratios. If they told the truth they would be bankrupt and their assets would be sold off on the market at a discount. Until they do, the banks will not lend to business or individuals - they will simply continue to trade fraudulant derivative with each other and pay themselves bonuses out of taxpayers money. The taxpayer will have to bail them out again next year.. That's your answer.

"s it not the case that an economy depends on a reasonable cash flow being available?"

Yes but it's not getting it. That's why shops are closing and business are collapsing and unemployment rising..

"s it not also the case that without that cash flow being reasonable an economy will slide into recession?"

Or depression.

"If you do not have a reasonable cash flow available what sensible options has a government got to increase it?"

They should have liquidated the banks. The money they gave to the banks could have gone to the people in the form of tax rebates and the consumer would have picked up. Now they are printing money but people are going to save because house prices are collapsing. When they print even more you'll get hyper-inflation.

"Is it not the case that as well as printing too much money to ease the economy printing too little can be ineffectual?"

The economy is being eased as none of the money is getting into the real economy. What they should have done is put up interest rates to encourage borrowing and inward investment. The pain would have been a lot but not economic death which now approaches.

"What is the best way to measure if you have printed enough money to kick start an economy?"

Jobs. The premis is wrong. Printing the money causes debt and debt has caused credit
262

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:32:14
Jobs. The premis is wrong. Printing the money causes debt and debt has caused credit freezing. YOu can't cure a heroin. addict by giving him even more heroine.

"Is it not important to an economy to have inflation?
If so what would you consider to be a healthy rate of inflation?"

No, this is an illusion of a debt based economy. The idea is that you print more money and draw forward demand. This is the government interfering in the market - this is private sector bad according to this article. No, when you take money from the productive economy to give to the non-productive economy you lose more jobs than the temporary ones you create. So, a healthy rate of inflation is ZERO. Capital formation is from savings and underconsumption. When you want to save money at home you make more than you earn right? That's what makes a country wealthy too. Debt is not wealth as modern economists will tell you. The collapse of the Western debt economies now has proved this although most people have bought so much into this religeon that they can't get it out their thinking yet. It's round the corner though.

"Is it possible to have a healthy rate of inflation when interest rates are so low and cash flow is not at a beneficial rate?"

There is no healthy rate of inflation.

>"Is it necessarily a bad thing to increase the rate of inflation?"
Yes.

"Is it not also the case that when there is a restricted cash flow lenders also can become reluctant to lend?"

Yes, that's what's happening now.

"Is it not the case that creditor would probably prefer a healthy rate of inflation and a good cash flow rather than having an almost non-existent rate of inflation and a very poor cash flow?"

They'd like a stable currency with as little inflation as possible. There is no cash flow now.

"How much extra money would you have to print before you would get to a tipping point where hyperinflation would occur?"

When investors dump their pounds you're already there.

"How fa
263

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt. 19/10/2009 17:32:49
"How far off from this point do you believe we are?
Can you show us some evidence to back up what you are saying?"

The fact that the pound lost 30% of its value in a year is evidence of printing. The reason you would print money in a import economy is because you can't borrow enough to balance the budget.

Here is a link to some articles if you are interested: http://www.berninger.de/home/blog-single-view-details/datum/2009/01/20/uk-declares-bankruptcy-hyperinflation-takes-up-speed.html

"s there not a difference between a British citizen investing in anything British with our own currency and someone investing from abroad who changes their own currency into pounds to invest?"

Yes.

"Is it not the case that they are probably able to buy much more with their investment than in the past?"

Yes but by this time next year it will have less value. When they then convert their investment back into their own currency they've lost..
264

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:34:33
260 Ugly George,19/10/2009 17:10:19
"257 BlackDouglas2
"Wealth will be concentrated with a small oligarchy at the top and the rest of the people will be working for food. Most already are."

Really, if that is the case how are there over 20 million private cars on the roads? If most people are "working for food" only how can they afford a car, its road tax, insurance and petrol etc.?"

They are paying them off via loans to the banks with interest.
265

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:36:27
261 The Tin Man,19/10/2009 17:12:28
"#257 BlackDouglas2, Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:04:56

Eire's current predicament would be mirrored in Scotland. When your principle trading partner prospers, so do you.

"Massive market there eh? "

Yes, indeed it is. About £28 billion."

-----------------------------

The problem with Eire is that they borrowed too much money and that money went into speculation. It has nothing to do with Britain. Ireland has no oil..
266

ppink,

19/10/2009 17:42:34
I can't bear this junior quasi economics any more

For all you post siesta swatters and know-alls, Marx said it all much more concisely many years ago:


"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to the bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to Communism. "

Karl Marx, 1867
267

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:49:17
ppink
"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to the bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to Communism. "

Not bad but wrong.
268

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 17:57:39
271 Not a fan of economic determinism myself
269

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 17:59:15
Check this out by Christopher Monkton. It sort of says what ppink says above except that it's a handful of bankers who run the communist politicians.

Interesting video about the creation of a one-world government in the Treaty of Copenhagen in December -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMe5dOgbu40
270

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:05:20
I got as far as 0.32 when he called the EU left wing
271

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:10:28
275 Graham in,Alloa 19/10/2009 18:05:20

Poor thing. Don't you know that political ideologies are designed to make us blind to reality? Listen to the guy and ignore his and your own prejudices. His constitutional views are not relevant to his left v right smokescreen political dogma..

It's pretty epic stuff for someone with a reputation to kill and a timescale so short..
272

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:23:20
So I should listen to the guy who's blind to reality and uses a dogmatic political smokescreen?
273

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:25:34

Oops, Brown tells us there's 50 days to save the world. He really want us to sign up at Copenhagen. I'm starting to think Copehagen might be a big problem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8313672.stm
274

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:26:48
1.05 'we haven't been screwing up the climate'

do you collect mince and save it to favourites?
275

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:27:55
277 Graham in,Alloa 19/10/2009 18:23:20
"So I should listen to the guy who's blind to reality and uses a dogmatic political smokescreen?"

Most people I know talk cr%p because of attachment to an ideology. That doesn't mean everything they say is cr$p. ANd anyway, even it was I might listen so that I know how cr$p is moulding the opinions of the people..
276

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:29:16
It's about time the CERN international scientists focussed on fixing practical problems such as energy supply. The politicians can't, and they should admit it.
277

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:31:10
279 Graham in,Alloa 19/10/2009 18:26:48
"1.05 'we haven't been screwing up the climate'

do you collect mince and save it to favourites?"

Look, if you wanted to get the population to do whatever you wanted it to do you'd scare it to death through crashing the economy, war on terror, war and climate armageddon. I might be wrong but I'm not convinced that we are not being deliberately terrorised by governments on this subject.

Whatever, it's about the constitution. Brown tells us the world will end if its not signed. That has to set alarm bells ringing! DOn't you agree?
278

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:32:27
Above is regarding Copenhagen and climate change. OK...will try your youtube video for a third time
279

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:38:12
He's an obnoxious Tory - agreed. However, I get a bit worried imagining rationing and an army of green spies fining you and confiscating property etc because of some carbon crime. It really does worry me.
This could be used to usher in a new economy where you have the super rich with lots of things and the poor with nothing - total feudalism using a smokescreen of environmentalism..


http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/seasia/en/press/reports/ngo-copenhagen-treaty.pdf
280

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 18:43:05
Jeezus,

Iran is threatening to invade Pakistan:
http://www2.debka.com/headline.php?hid=6328

I read a story of June 2008 that proved that Bush got $400 million in order to train terrorists to destablise Iran. In the last few days terrorist suicide bombers killed some high ranking Iranian military. If Iran invades Pakistan we are teetering on the brink of world war!
281

Graham in,

Alloa 19/10/2009 18:44:24
I don't know much about the Copenhagen Treaty. Thanks for the link
282

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 19:04:32
(#212) – (BlackDouglas2) –What makes you believe that it is a lie that having manufacturing in a nation means that a nation has a manufacturing base?

When you say that the UK’s manufacturing base is not worth talking about is that the opinion of experts?

Are you sure that I said that you said that cheap British products were more difficult to buy abroad?

Can you show me that proof?

Are you saying that Britain is not making enough to make any serious difference to the British economy due to the recession or are you saying this was already the case even before the recession?
283

BlackDouglas2,

19/10/2009 19:06:27
Sobering economic forecast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efuepuPb2u8
284

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 19:13:44
287 Ewan Randall,19/10/2009 19:04:32
"(#212) – (BlackDouglas2) –What makes you believe that it is a lie that having manufacturing in a nation means that a nation has a manufacturing base?"

That's not what I said. Look, the 'base' is too narrow to really grow the economy. It will not provide enough jobs for the ones being lost. Expect massive unemployment for a long time.

"When you say that the UK’s manufacturing base is not worth talking about is that the opinion of experts?"

Yes. Compared to major industrial nations like Germany, Japan and China it is miniscule. Like the US the UK economy was converted to service sector jobs. That sector grew based on debt. It must now decline massively. Those who lose their jobs will not be able to move to manufacturing. It's gone.

"Are you sure that I said that you said that cheap British products were more difficult to buy abroad?

Can you show me that proof?"

Not sure what you're talking about here. Exporters will benefit - it's just a shame there's not that many of them. Not enough to pay for the budget deficit and not enough to create the jobs the UK is now losing.

Are you saying that Britain is not making enough to make any serious difference to the British economy due to the recession or are you saying this was already the case even before the recession?

The manufacturing sector was too small. That's why the UK got into debt. Now that the UK economy is collapsing there is no manufacturing sector to fall back on.

Simple
285

morris,

edinburgh 19/10/2009 19:16:05
171 Yes indeed Skullduggery Murphy was on tv tonight saying just that in the Glasgow bye election launch.

What a shame the opposite is true and anybody who believes what Labour said should be certified under the mental health act.

Firstly its a by election only and a Labour victory would achieve nothing whatsoever, and be quite futile, because they are on their way out at the General Election anyway.
Secondly if you vote for anybody other than the SNP you stay in the United Kingdom and get a Tory government guaranteed, because England with near enough 600 seats will elect one.

The opposite of what Labour claim is unavoidable .
Please note the ease with which STV broadcast this crud without even pointing out its total numptyspeak.

Surely Glasgow North East cannot be stupid enough to listen to Skull Murphy ? Can they?
286

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 19:30:24
More on Iran:

"Iran vows revenge after claiming bomb attack was carried out by Britain"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6372556/Iran-vows-revenge-after-claiming-bomb-attack-was-carried-out-by-Britain.html

------------------------------------------

Again, it's starting to look like a new war is the only option to save political skins..
287

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 19:39:41
I do believe that this is being worked in conjuction with a shared equity subsidy for first time buyers.

Private housebuilders were using the shared equity system prior to the slump.

This is where residents pay part rent/part mortgage - exactly what Thatcher calculated with the right to buy on council houses. So the SNP have addressed both sides, although that is not reported in a one sided article.

Besides, given the claims of single person homelessness or young couples wanting the first rung on the property ladder, why don't they try for a Wimpey matchbox (like I have) for a few years and then upgrade when they have a wee bit of equity to put towards their next mortgage?
288

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 19:44:17
#104 Ewan Randall - "(#10) – (The Col. of Monte Cristo) –In what way did right to buy push first time buyers beyond reaching the first rung of the ladder?"

Young couple both in full time employment earning circa £6.00 per hour...a very high proportion of unskilled people.

Prior to right to buy, they would have been unlikely to consider house purchase and would have rented from the council.

After 30 years of right to buy - people in their circumstances will have to wait several years before they get a sniff of a set of council house keys.

So they must buy - A modest flat in an inexpensive area will between Mortgage, CT and insurance will cost £500-£600+ per month...leaving with them with around £100 each every week to cover all other experiences.

Travel to work, food at work, food at home, electricity, gas, TV/internet, telephone, clothing, household sundries, holidays, savings, HP and credit card debts, bank charges, Entertainment, Pensions and personal insurances, Lottery tickets(probably more than they can afford) beer, fags, drugs and so on.

Maybe one of then needs a car in order to get to work?

DANGER DANGER POVERTY TRAP!

Is it any wonder that so many people fake invalidity etc for an easy life?

289

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 19:44:33
What I would like local authorities to address is why former council houses with a market value of more than double of mine are assessed in the same council tax bracket.
290

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 19:49:32
Agree with you to some extent, Col@293.

But why can't councils build anything other than 2 or 3 bed houses or flats?

Have you ever seen a council build one bed starter packs?
291

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 20:04:30
Let's get the lowardly mobile people up and running.
292

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 20:10:33
#295 Jock Tamson

They still have some in Falkirk District, a wealthy relative of mine was offered one in the multi's in tamfourhill recently...he had been on the waiting list for forty years but he decided to stick with his three bedroom three bathroom number in New Carron.

Johnny come lately's might get the chance of a bed at the new Model Lodging House in The Castings though.
293

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 20:15:09
294 Councils haven't been building houses for years. Housing Associations have 'though, and the houses they build are better than private new builds (unless you are at the high end of the scale). And they come in all shapes and sizes.

See your Wimpey House? It wouldn't get built with public money because you can't swing a cat in it.

Also Housing Associations have been doing shared ownership for years, and have also been building houses for sale, at the same time as building houses for rent.

That's what we need, mixed tenure and options for people. People shouldn't feel boxed into either buying or renting, they should be able to do what suits them.

That's what the SNP seem to be doing here.
294

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 20:22:09
We need to get back to the idea that a house is actually for living in. Not generating false wealth.
295

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 20:22:28
293 The Col. of Monte Cristo,19/10/2009 19:44:17

"DANGER DANGER POVERTY TRAP!"

Could not agree more! The banks are squeezing people. What they want is to have everyone in debt because debt is their product. They are going to squeeze every business and every person until they can afford nothing but the survival basics. We are all to live in perpetual debt - it's feudal.

That's UK moronomics. I want Scotland to get out and do things differently. We're citizens not bank serfs! No-one on the right never mind the left should aspire to that.

Excellent post!
296

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 20:23:48
299 Observer,,Glasgow 19/10/2009 20:22:09
"We need to get back to the idea that a house is actually for living in. Not generating false wealth."

Brilliant post! Gets right to the heart of the problem in very few words.
297

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

19/10/2009 20:31:28
#298 Observer - "See your Wimpey House? It wouldn't get built with public money because you can't swing a cat in it."

There are more than Wimpey at that game.

They take all the doors off in the furnished showhouses...if you look carefully, you can observe that the doors would not be able to open/close because of the furniture.

They also get 3/4 scale furniture...two seater couches, with three cushions and supply fridges and cookers that are markedly smaller than the standard 600mm ones in the shops, which would not fit into the spaces provided.
298

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 20:35:29
German army and politicians to get a different swine flu vaccine from the rest of the population:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm8Is6LBiXk
299

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 20:39:43
Geez. First time I've felt on the back foot for agreeing with something in principle.

Observer. Can you tell me why it is OK for private buyers to buy a Wimpey matchbox and for private tenants to rent the same type of property, and have their rent and council tax paid by the local authority when it is not OK for said council to build same and do same?

ColB. Ah, the Maltings. Worked on new build flats in Edingurgh with more bathrooms than floorspace. Offers over £250.000 and a splendid Pilton view.

Hey Mr Tamfourhill Man play a song for me.

I was advised not to do that song parody at a Dykes (Stables) thingee.
300

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 20:48:22
No smoke without fire:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_to_enter_diplomatic_talks
301

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 20:48:34
On the subject of Wimpey - and I have worked on a few of their sites - they are the masters of reduced space maximisation.

Their starter packs are second to none and ideal for young couples in la la nest, divorced daddies (moi) and young singles looking to buy cheaper than renting.

The deatail is mini house but unlike ColB I have had to shop around for the wee furniture.

Last great buy was a halogen oven. The old Zannussi popped its mama mia a while ago and the halogen one is far better.
302

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 20:56:08
304 I am not sure I really understand the question. But I don't think houses that don't allow for reasonable cat swinging should be allowed to be built, particularly as a large number of them will be bought to let. Because it's ridiculous to have a two tier system for people who rent, there should be one standard and it should be the one that the public sector currently work to.
303

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 20:58:45
306 Jock Tamson,Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 20:48:34

Wimpey homes are terrible. These people should be put out of business. How did they get away with it for so long? Shareholders? Ideology? Tories/Labour?

They have no place in Scotland.

It's just junk like politics, like business, like media news, like newspapers, like education, like the history they teach, like the food we have to eat. JUNK JUNK JUNK.

Profiteers running riot all over our nation!
304

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 20:59:50
I live in a traditional tenement. You could swing an elephant about in here. I don't really understand why people buy these modern houses to be honest.
305

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 20:59:59
(#266) – (BlackDouglas2) –What evidence do you have that the banks have false accounts?

Does that evidence show which banks have false accounts?

If you cannot prove that the banks concerned have false accounts do you really have any basis for believing that they will not be lending to business or individuals?

Is it not the point of printing more cash to reduce the number of shops closing and businesses collapsing and to stop unemployment rising?

Is it not the lack of a decent cash flow that has put these things in jeopardy?

You did not have a sensible option for a government to increase cash flow then?



How would putting up interest rates to increase saving encourage the cash to flow around the economy?

Would it not have the opposite effect?

Is there a reason you did not answer, Is it not the case that as well as printing too much money to ease the economy printing too little can be ineffectual?

What evidence have you got that the economy is likely to die?

Why is it the wrong premise asking what is the best way to measure if you have printed enough money to kick start an economy?


(#267) – (BlackDouglas2) –Why do you believe that having inflation is an illusion of a debt based economy?

Is it not true that the aim of the economy is to expand?

How do you expand an economy if there is not more money than products?

If you cannot then how can a zero rate of inflation be healthy?

Where is all of this hyperinflation then if we are already there?

If we are already there for hyperinflation to hit then why would it take until this time next year before the economy would hit the skids as you put it?
306

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:01:58
307, Observer. Are you having a blonde moment?

I get them in Amsterdam - so I'm told.

I don't understand this. You are normally on the button, so to speak.
307

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:07:34
308, BlackDouglas2. They are an affordable rung on the housing ladder. That's all Wimpey is.

BTW, I am a great opponent of the "national house builder" per se. It's the land purchase and land bank system which is the problem - along with the modern fixation with national housebuilders who sell half the properties to speculators before the development is complete.
308

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:08:50
Will Ewan Randall join a debate?
309

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:13:21
Jings Ewan you really are a massochist.

Check out the articles here: http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

Check out this vid with Janet Tavakoli - a structured finance analyst from Wall St.

or Matt Taibbi from Rolling Stone magazine: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover

If they're doing it on Wall St... Morre on UK banks

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/british-banks-deemed-technically.html

You need more? The global derivative market is $700 trillion. Global GDP is around 50 and falling. Governments changed the accounting laws to help hide banks losses in case they went under all at once..

Go and look it all up. Come back in a month or so and say something useful..

310

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:17:10
I take that comment at 312 back about Wimpey.

Wimpy spend a great deal of money making sure that the foundations are good. But I would check the ground away from the original build if I was planning an extension.

This would be on ground built on after the mid 90's when their land bank was being depleted. Apart from Newton Mearns which was blasted level from rock.
311

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/10/2009 21:21:05
311 Evidently I must be having a blond and dizzy moment because I still don't really understand the question, sorry.
312

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:21:19
Re 315. Apart from plots 13-15. They had to import clay and construct with floating floors.
313

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:24:06
Ewan:
You did not have a sensible option for a government to increase cash flow then?
Like I said - give people income tax rebates instead of bank bail-outs. The consumer will spend it in shops..

"How would putting up interest rates to increase saving encourage the cash to flow around the economy?"
In a consumer society this matters. When all you have is money that you borrow the only jobs there'll be are in retailing. We need manufacturing jobs not retailing. Consumer spending had to drop so that people could save. Jeez, do you ever get it?

"Why is it the wrong premise asking what is the best way to measure if you have printed enough money to kick start an economy?"

Because the problem was too much money in the first place. The whole country is inflated and now the prices have to come down. Putting in more money causes the distortions in the economy to be perpetuated. You need to let the market recover without steroids..

"Is it not true that the aim of the economy is to expand?"
Debt does not make the economy expand, it makes consumption expand. This is where the myth lies. When you spend using debt the economy contract but you have the illusion of wealth until credit runs out..

"If we are already there for hyperinflation to hit then why would it take until this time next year before the economy would hit the skids as you put it?"

The economy has hit the skids. It is a question of when the currency caves. It has already lost 30% of its value. When the bond market crashes then people are going to sell them. Then you will have no money for a budget and Brown will have to print even more money. Then hyper-inflation kicks in.
314

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:27:35
Observer. We do not exactly live in a time when public housing tenants can demand more space than private.

Don't have cats and don't swing them in cooncil hooses.

Why shouldn't cooncil hooses be the same size as private hooses?
Give me a logical reason.
315

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:32:24
Can anyone tell me why someone who cannot avoid social housing requires more living space than someone who can?
316

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:34:13
British banks are 'technically insolvent'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/british-banks-are-technically-insolvent-1418229.html

ANOTHER £100BN BAIL-OUT FOR 'INSOLVENT' BANKS
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/80480/Another-100bn-bail-out-for-insolvent-banks

“The domestic UK banks are technically insolvent….”
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2009/01/the-domestic-uk-banks-are-technically-insolvent/

The British Pound, Not So Sterling: UK Banks are Technically Insolvent
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20090121&articleId=11926

Don't Panic - UK Government Censors news story titled "Banks are 'technically insolvent'"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj7udeHQ-X0


QE just acting as a sugar rush for insolvent banks that deserve to fail
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/5742424/QE-just-acting-as-a-sugar-rush-for-insolvent-banks-that-deserve-to-fail.html
317

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:35:58
319 Jock Tamson,Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:27:35
"Observer. We do not exactly live in a time when public housing tenants can demand more space than private.

Don't have cats and don't swing them in cooncil hooses.

Why shouldn't cooncil hooses be the same size as private hooses?
Give me a logical reason."

Maybe they should. SO make private houses as big as council ones then?
318

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:39:25
Oi, Barnes. Did you realise that the right to buy put Britain on a par with the Soviet Union, whereby tradesmen had the same wealth as professionals?

Some left turn, eh no?
319

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:41:59
Wrong, BlackDouglas2@322. Make council houses as small as private ones. Make them, yes, but just as small as private ones.

320

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:49:52
324 Jock Tamson,Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 21:41:59
"Wrong, BlackDouglas2@322. Make council houses as small as private ones. Make them, yes, but just as small as private ones."

Hey, we'll be long enough in our coffins. I want space! Space is good.
321

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 21:59:23
Interesting video on economic history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY
322

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 22:05:34
BlackDouglas2. Your scenario is:

Can't afford to buy a private matchbox? Rent a public spacious house - subsidised by a private matchbox.

Live on the state. Exist by your own efforts.

That is some message to send out.
323

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 22:10:10
Btw, BlackDouglas". Cremation, dear chap, cremation. Less time in the coffin - not that anyone in a coffin really cares.

You sound like an economic whiz kid. This is a construction article and you haven't given any indications that you know anything about construction.
324

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 22:14:55
Dunno how the public house is subsidised. I mean you pays your rent. The rental sector historically always gave up more returns than the original capital spend. So the renters end up subsidising the rest.

If I don't wish to put myself into debt slavery to the bank for 30 years then I'd prefer to rent. If I see buying a house as an investment then I'll do that.

If anything, I remember house owners getting all sorts of tax offsets and you ended up getting the opposite - tennents subsidising home-owners.
325

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 22:24:00
329, BlackDouglas2. You are beginning to get the wrong end of the drift.

Google it a tad.
326

Jock Tamson,

S 19/10/2009 22:25:21
Bedtime. Tomorrow my mortgage will be less than is it today.
327

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 22:25:41
328 Jock Tamson,Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2009 22:10:10

"You sound like an economic whiz kid. This is a construction article and you haven't given any indications that you know anything about construction."

I just keep the heid in - no economics whizzkiddery around these parts. Construction? Not much of it going on I suppose. Commercial mortgages are even more leveraged than houses were so that's about to hit the fan. Construction jobs? People should switch to manufacturing. Problem is there's none of them either..
328

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 19/10/2009 22:28:04
331 Jock Tamson,S 19/10/2009 22:25:21

Bedtime. Tomorrow my mortgage will be less than is it today.

Problem Jock is that with the pound falling your house will be worth less than it was today.

O' the best.
329

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 22:59:37
(#289) – (BlackDouglas2) – At what level does a manufacturing base have to be before to really grow the economy?

When you say “really” what is it referring to?

Which experts are you talking about when talking about the manufacturing base not being worth talking about?

Do you not think that the pound being lower might encourage more people to create ventures that might export?

Can you explain to me please exactly why the manufacturing sector being small is the reason the UK got into debt?
330

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 23:09:10
(#293) – (The Col. of Monte Cristo) – Is it not the case that rent to buy allowed people onto the property ladder because of the lower costs of their property?

If this is the case then would that not place the rung in front of them rather than take it away?
331

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 23:28:34
(#314) – (BlackDouglas2) – “The warning does not mean British banks are about to go bust, because the assessment is purely theoretical”

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/01/british-banks-deemed-technically.html

Doe this not say it all from one of your own links?
332

Ewan Randall,

19/10/2009 23:45:50
(#318) – (BlackDouglas2) –If you were to pick between those who lend money from the bank and those getting tax rebates for who are more likely to spend it in the economy who would you pick?

If you have a recession and you are given a tax rebate is there not a good chance you would save it somewhere just incase you might need it?

Would the tax rebates not be relatively tiny per person at any given time considering the number of people in employment if you are measuring them again what the banks have been getting?
333

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

20/10/2009 00:13:29
#335 Ewan Randall

A consequence of the council house sell off is that stocks are about 40% of the previous total and the average council house waiting list is seven years.

The people on the "ladder" are not ascending because in order for them to do so, new people must get on in sufficient numbers.

The whole thing has stalled because the typical guy reaching for the ladder is in terms of income, ranked 600,000 places below the fellow who occupied that position 30 years ago.

He cant afford to get on - he has to live with his parents, get a privately let slum or rent a room in someone else's house and unless he has some medical problem or is a single parent he will not be getting a council house any time soon.

Every town in Scotland is chock full of streets that a year or so ago was bristling with "for sale" signs, which were seldom up for more than a couple of weeks before they collected a "Sold" or "Under Offer" sticker.

Now these same streets have 2 or 3 "For Sale" signs that have been in front of the same houses for months...The housing market now resembles a pyramid scheme that has reached saturation point.

The decimation of social housing stocks, is a major factor in it's demise and the main reason it will never be the same again.

334

57vintage,

Keith 20/10/2009 10:13:20
This is very good news.

Congratulations to the SNP for doing what should have been done as a priority by the first Scottish Executive in 1999.
335

bumpkin,

21/10/2009 21:55:24
is it not a lurch to the right,? excluding the poorest from aquiring property, so are forced into landlords hands.

 

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