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SNP tax plan is branded 'a double whammy for first-time buyers'

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Published Date: 21 March 2008
MINISTERS were accused of imposing a punitive tax on young first-time house buyers last night, after new figures showed that tens of thousands of people who are living with their parents will be hit by the new local income tax.
John Swinney, the finance secretary, has announced plans to replace the council tax with a local income tax, imposing a 3p rise in income tax on everybody earning a wage in Scotland.

Official Scottish Government statistics show there are 265,198 people aged between 20 and 34 in Scotland who are living with their parents, many of whom will be working and have to pay the new tax.

Last night, Labour politicians claimed many of these young people were living with their parents in an attempt to save money to get themselves on to the property ladder for the first time. And they warned the SNP's new tax would hit them for the first time, making it more difficult for them to save enough for a deposit on a home of their own.

The local income tax would be based on the income of each individual in a household, rather than imposing a set charge on each household, as the council tax does.

While it is impossible to know how many of the households in Scotland with grown-up children in them would be worse off, the accountants Pricewaterhouse- Coopers calculated that households in band D for council tax would pay more when their combined income hits £49,000 and Band G homes when their income hits £75,000 a year.

Households with three and possibly four income earners would hit those thresholds in greater numbers than houses with just one or two earners.

According to the latest figures, of the 265,198 young people still living with their parents, 31,718 are aged over 30, 67,338 are between the ages of 25 and 29 and the remainder are aged 20 to 24. It is not known how many of these are still in full-time education and therefore exempt from local income tax, but those who are earning will have to pay.

The row is the latest in a series of blows to the Scottish Government's plans for a local income tax, which were unveiled last week and unified Labour, the Tories, the business community and some unions in opposition to them. The tax was branded unfair because it would not raise any money from those living on unearned income, and ministers were accused of hiding the true cost, with claims of a £1 billion black hole in their financial calculations.

Accountants KPMG then warned that the new tax might drive out some of Scotland's wealthiest business people, who would see their local tax liability go up from a couple of thousand pounds a year to more than £100,000 a year.

Yesterday, Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, accused Alex Salmond of hiding the true cost of implementing the tax, claiming it could cost as much as £380 million more over four years than the Scottish Government has forecast.

Now that the figures have emerged for the number of young people who live with their parents, ministers are under more pressure to justify their plans because of the effect the tax would have on multiple-income households.

Richard Baker, Labour's spokesman on higher education and student support, said: "More young people are staying in the family home specifically to save money and get themselves on the property ladder.

"What the SNP is proposing is a double whammy. Many of these people will not pay the council tax but they will have to pay the local income tax and it will make it harder for them to get on the property ladder."

Derek Brownlee, the Scottish Tories' finance spokesman, said that the younger generation was already being hit harder than their parents because of less job security and higher house prices.

He added: "This is a disincentive to work and it's another burden that people of this generation don't need.

"This is another example of the local income tax unravelling once we get at the detail."

However, a spokesman for Mr Swinney defended the local income tax plans and criticised opposition MSPs for trying to protect their own incomes.

The spokesman added: "Labour and Tory MSPs are united in trying to stop hundreds of pounds of savings for people on low and medium incomes – people who are being hammered by rising fuel prices, rising food prices, and are only now being protected after a decade of huge Labour council tax rises."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 March 2008 11:21 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:17:33
Another nail in the SNP's 'Local Income Tax' policy.
2

somerferg,

Perth 21/03/2008 00:34:33

#1 - doubt it!!
3

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 21/03/2008 00:38:03
At last the dawning. The poll tax resurfaces.
4

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/03/2008 00:48:32
How can 'first time home buyers' be living with their parents. Surely 'first time home buyers' will currently be paying council tax. Perhaps the 'first time home buyers are living at home an letting out their property. Perhaps they are actually 'buy to lets.'
What a heap of nonsense this article is.
5

W Smith,

Middle East 21/03/2008 00:57:18
Jim Mather has bit of 'unearned income' that will, surprise, surprise, escape this income tax.

In fact, what our Jim recieves in annual dividends on his shares is more that the annual salary of many Scots reading this comment.

Nice one.

BTW
In Saudi Arabia several years ago the government tried to impose income tax on expats.

So many expats, including Fillipinos and Indians, resigned the Saudi government had to do a U-turn and abolish the income tax.

Salmond should take note - its one thing pushing the uneducated and unskilled around and demanding more tax but its a total different ball game when you start pushng the educated and skilled work force around.

Salmond, the economist, still hasn't worked out why so many Scots are working overseas.

DUH!

Alex Ferguson, the socialist and Labour supporter, earns around the same every year as Fred Godwin - around 4 million quid a year.

Sir Alex doesn't bring jobs or secure jobs in Scotland but will escape Salmond's income tax as he as the privelege of working and staying in England while Sir Fred is effectively 'punished' for making RBS a success.

The high fliers in Edinburgh will push this income tax on to their employers and the employer in turn may decide ITS TIME to move out of Scotland to cut costs.

Scotland has arleady lost NCR jobs to Hungary where the corporation tax, at 16%, is less than half than in Scotland, at 28%.

Maybe Salmond should stick to writing love letters to the regimes in Zimbabwe and Iran!
6

subrosa,

21/03/2008 00:58:45
# 3 AM2

Where on earth do you get these figures from? Must be some airey-fairy calculator you're using. Absolute rubbish they are.
7

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 21/03/2008 01:00:31
The reason why young people are living with their parents has nothing to do with local income tax but everything to do with the Labour Government who have 1)forced young students into massive debt in the form of student loans and graduate endowment, 2) allowed house prices to soar by permitting financial institutions to grant mortgage multipliers well in excess of the wages, 3) failed to provide affordable rented properties, 4) have connived in 'buy to lets' by permitting mortgage interest to be set against rents received for tax purposes, a privilege denied ordinary house buyers, and 5) allowed too much cheap borrowing which has now come back to haunt us.
8

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/03/2008 01:12:41
#7 Scotland is not Saudi Arabia. For starters Saudi Arabia for better or worse spend their own OIL REVENUE. OH DEAR OH DEAR another ex pat cavalier clown.
9

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:25:31
# 11

I assure you AM2 that they're NOT sound for 72 pensioners in my town. We were all just working out what we would pay this week and none would be worse off.
10

Yoohoo,

21/03/2008 01:49:45
What property ladder? Has the hootsmon been reading the news?
11

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:53:26
ah yet another pice of anti SNP drivel from Hamish Macdonnell, just to complete his week of daily articles all aimed at the SNP Government
I think Hamish should come clean and resign from the Scotsman and become a Labour MSP. After all he must spend an unhealthy amount of time getting breifings from them
12

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:55:35
#3 AM2
How do you make out a pensioner would be worse off. On what basis did you come up with that crap!
The fact of the matter is pensioners would be a whole lot better off as most would be paying a lot less with some not paying at all
13

,

21/03/2008 02:08:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 03:40:38
Well thank christ the halfwit from the middle east has finally acknowledged that Scotland got shafted on JOBS, because of Westminsters high taxes. NCR went to Hungary because the NEWLY INDEPENDANT Hungarian Government did what Alex Salmond promised in an Independant Scotland. Reduce Corporate Tax and seduce companies to relocate to Scotland.

Now all you Britnats take note on how many new jobs and investment Scotland will attract from London alone. The oil companies for a start, and all the Scottish Companies who moved down there. Scottish Government Departments like the Scottish Treasury will create more jobs and commonwealth.

As for the local income tax. Yes young wage earners will have to pay their share of the costs of local services, therefore reducing the burden on our Scottish People who have been carrying the entire burden.

As for Pensioners being disadvantaged, what utter rubbish, if you do not earn enough you do not pay.

I will gladly pay my 3p in the pound tax if it is paid by all who earn a wage. I am very happy to pay, if our Scottish Pensioners who have had to live through the abuse and betrayal of 50 years of Westminster puppet Scottish Ministers who were in some instances from another country, like England, Wales and Ireland.

Remember you britnats will soon follow your hearts and chose to live in the UK, so there wont be any charges other than council taxes.
15

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:26:26
So these people at the moment don't pay their share of the council tax through rent to their parents? The lazy bar-stewards!

This newspaper seems to be pursuing a line of argument which states that the local income tax will simultaneously take less money (the so called 'black hole'), yet result in people paying more.

clearly a non-sensical situation.
16

Colin Wilson,

21/03/2008 06:35:04
"Richard Baker, Labour's spokesman on higher education and student support, said... many of these people will not pay the council tax but they will have to pay the local income tax."

If they're living in the parental home, and earning, they should be contributing toward the cost of the council tax anyway. In effect, Baker is saying that parents owe it to young people to subsidise the latter's use of council services, in order to help them buy their own place. This really ought to be a matter of individual choice.
17

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:57:56
Either they are paying through rent to their parents, or else they are not paying at all. If the latter, then that's not fair. If the former then there probably wont be much difference. Either this is a tax rise or a tax cut, but the Scotsman and the rest of the opposition don't seem to be sure which it is.
18

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 07:30:05
Mum and Dad why am i paying more income tax?............See Alex Salmond about it
19

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 21/03/2008 07:41:40
Seems common sense that if you consume, then you pay according to your ability to pay.

The council tax was used because those in power were too idle to work out an equitable way to raise taxes. Much easier to hit those who live own/rent houses. It's a bit like attacking the motorist, an easy and convenient target to soak, when the illegal war coffers of Mr Brown are running on empty.



Yours etc

Angus Whitton
20

terry osser,

morden 21/03/2008 07:42:07
council tax is a service charge. i dont pay more to have my car serviced because i earn more. why therefore should council tax be related to income or even to house valuation. it should be a flat rate per house. the abuse of lit will be huge. i am self employed and can pay my income as dividends and escape payment. 23 tell me more about land value tax which i think is probably a non-starter--thanx
21

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:47:34
' hard workers pay more; scroungers and parasites pay less.'

So you'd like a system where the more money you earn, the less tax you pay?

that sounds workable.
22

clola,

uk but in india presently. 21/03/2008 07:52:44
Lot of hot air around, lets see what it boils down to, when all the waffle and threatening words have died down. You can bet some will win and some will lose. SNP should know that to attack pensioners or the young and fragile is not the place for their policy to bight hardest.
23

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:55:34
About 80% of Scots will pay less in LIT than Council Tax. The 20% who will pay more are trying to scupper LIT.
The media (and probably PWC) pay between reasonable and ridiculous salaries and are united against this "unjust", "unfair" and "unworkable" tax. Income tax is probably the easiest tax to administer and collect as governments worldwide have stuck by for centuries.
24

Max Born,

21/03/2008 08:13:03
#7
You are a deserter your comments count for nothing.
25

Scotland to prosper...,

21/03/2008 08:20:38
This story is pointless and misguided.

Firstly, to agree with this story, you need to agree that young people who earn should be exempt from paying tax. Even with the current system, everyone pays PAYE so to suggest young people will be worse off is ridiculous.

Secondly, to suggest that the council tax fairly spreads the cost of local government services is nonsense. The LIT takes into account the most relevant issue regarding the payment of tax, your ability to pay. It’s a far fairer and more transparent tax than the stealth taxes Westminster are conjuring up on a daily basis.

Finally, to suggest first time buyers will be worse off under LIT does not make sense. LIT will allow first time buyers to determine far more accurately their financial status and what they can afford before buying a house, rather than buying a house first, then finding out the tax implications.
26

thinking,

Scotland 21/03/2008 08:26:34
Why shouldn't all earners pay this tax? After all, they use the council facilities too. Probably more than their parents in some cases.
27

The Sheriff,

21/03/2008 08:27:26
There is a well known saying in life......You can please some people some of the time and you can please most people most of the time,what you cannot do is please everyone all of the time.

We have had the rates system,poll tax,council tax and now a proposed local income tax.Not one of those systems meets the criteria of pleasing everyone all the time,there have always been and there always will be some individuals or groups of individuals who will feel hard done to by whatever system is in play.

The present council tax is a stealth tax end of story,it is a tax on a net income yet it is used to fund services that are used by the local community.Some could argue why should I pay council tax as I don't use the facilities or have children or i only fill my bin up every two weeks in comparison to next door who's bin overflows every week.The fact of the matter is that services require funding and a local income tax is a good way of raising that funding.

There will be winners and losers,mostly losers in the higher earnings bracket well over the £60k mark as a figure out of the air.As an example I currently pay £1,159 for a band c property my gross income is no more than £18k with a substantial amount of overtime to take me up to what I consider to an affordable lifestyle without too many frills,if I have to pay 3% on gross earnings then I'll pay £540.If you take someone who currently earns £40k they will only pay £1200 which is slightly more than I currently pay and i am willing to bet they have a more comfortable style of living than I do.

So to AM2 in glasgow, how you can come to the conclusion that pensioners will be worse off after I have given the above figures?Only those pensioners who have multiple pensionable income will pay more than those pensioners who do not and how many pensioners will earn £40k?
28

Radical Mac,

Fife 21/03/2008 08:35:03
A local income tax is the fairest way ahead. As for first time buyers, the big problem here is that everyone wants the big new house with double garage as the first house. Taking on massive debt more than they can afford to pay. How LIT is implemented is the secret a standard rate wont work as our Labour Councils will just waste the money and then want a tap off the Scottish Parliament. It has to be fixed locally. Or they will waste it as in Edinburgh & Fife leaving a mess for their successors.
29

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:43:00
Ah thats why Hamish isnt on the defence disaster for Scotland story he's busy on the Tax disaster for Scotland story. Has any other country in existance faced such an army of potential disasters while trying to set up its own Independent Government??
Has any other country in existance had so many warnings of disasters which havent materialised past their sell by dates than Scotland???

So now we have to base our entire tax regimes in order to bring comfort to those adults who choose to remain with their parents instead of living on their own???
The SNP is now being critisised for not introducing a policy in order to give a tax benefit to approx 4% of the population. A 4% who have no mortgage debts, no insurance debts, no food bills, heating bills, phone bills, utility bills etc etc.
My heart bleeds for them.
30

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:45:23
7

So according to you Smith the SNP shouldnt tinker with Scottish taxes at all?? we should determine our tax policies based on what foreign workers want??
Just like every other country in the world does??
31

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:45:35
Another day another scaremongering attack by Hamish McDonell, the LIT will be based on income Hamish, that means you and your bosses will pay more while a lot of ordinary people will pay less.

The Scotsman has lost all credibility on this issue.
32

JimC,

Kilmarnock 21/03/2008 08:52:54
AM2, I don't know where Labour gets its figs from but here is a doze of reality for you. Any single pensioner on the state pension who may have a small (under £30 a month) private pension on top is intitled to pension credit, normally around £20-£30 a week. Their council tax bill is £18 a month over 11 months (here in Killie) That comes to £198 a year so where do you get the £152/year worse off from?? Even taxing them on every penny they get weekly at 3p in the pound, they would be better off by a mile.
33

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:58:48
11

What Labour say they intend to do and what they actually do is based more on coincidence than by design.
I am amazed that Labour keep telling us what they plan to do in spite of the fact they have had over 50 years in which to actually do it.
Does your gulliblity know no bounds??
34

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 09:06:20
So what it comes down to is that pensioners on a meagre income should continue to subsidise young wages earners. That should be very popular with traditional Labour voters.
35

conservative,

Fife 21/03/2008 09:07:15
And is there some reason why well-heeled youngsters in good-paying jobs shouldn't pay for their fair whack of the local council services? You see a good many more youngsters than pensioners zipping around in expensive new cars and thronging the pubs and clubs.
36

marmalade sandwich,

perthshire 21/03/2008 09:10:28
Local Income Tax won't work. Legislation has to get passed to allow employers to collect it, and with different rates across Scotland (possibly) it will be a glorious mess. And governments have a lousy record on computer systems.

And the message is dawning that Local Income Tax is a Poll Tax by another name, except that it will be less fair than the Poll Tax was.

I thought that the Council Tax status quo was accepted as having shortcomings, but probably the best we can do to be fair to most.
37

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:14:29
40

Can you explain to me how pensioners are going to suffer under LIT???
38

Doh,

21/03/2008 09:14:33
#34 Rules


The land value tax you describe (as is being promoted by some Tories) is the same as the Council Tax.

Property is already assigned a value and taxed at that value.

The only good reason for a Land Value Tax is the opposite of what you describe - to tax land on its potential value and not on its developed value.

That encourages development and encourages property sepculators to sell land for development.

Meanwhile the best tax for funding local government is local income tax.

Arguments for wealth taxes on such property as cars, art and CD collections or land are another issue.

39

,

21/03/2008 09:14:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 21/03/2008 09:15:22
AM2 wrote:
"Labour looked at the Council Tax/water/sewerage package as a whole, and intended to completely scrap water & sewerage charges for pensioners"

Labour promise many things - and then renegade on their promises. If Labour wanted to implement this why didn't they do this when in power?

In fact Labour could do this right now anyway - they are the government in power in the UK.

But Labour are not doing this.

If Labour were in power in Scotland it means that this would only be done in Scotland, not the rest of the UK. Does anyone with half a brain actually think Labour would countenance such a thing?

Of course not. In other words this Labour proposal is a tissue of lies. It would either be throughout the UK or not at all. If it was to be throughout the UK then Labour could do this right now. But they are not.

Anyone who thinks Labour is serious about this incredibly stupid.
41

Phil C,

21/03/2008 09:16:40
It's time the bleaters grew up. These profoundly fair proposals should be welcomed by everyone. It is only right that all those who can afford it, pay their share of local tax. Comparisons with the poll tax are ignorantly misguided in that Local Income Tax is based on ability to pay first and foremost.

The Scotsman again puts it's negative slant on what is a very positive proposal and the anti-SNP sheep come running out of the trees, baaaaing in agreement.
42

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 09:19:33
44 Foulkes
In answer to your query the clue is in the "should continue" - in other words if the council tax remains then pensioners will continue to pay the council tax but those mentioned in this article i.e. young wage earners living with their parents will not.
43

Phil C,

21/03/2008 09:22:25
5&9 Huntly loon

Totally agree- this article is complete nonsense in trying to manufacture a case against the LIT by using the poor first-time buyers. They would have paid council tax anayway!
44

Toast,

21/03/2008 09:23:11
Why shouldn't everybody working pay,they all expect the services,more pathetic labour moaning.The scotsman really is becoming pathetically isolated in its labour bias
45

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 21/03/2008 09:24:55
As to the article itself.

Any new way of collecting tax will have winners & losers. Simply to write articles pointing out possible negative scenarios is irrational. The point is you want to look at both the negative & positive repercussions. This article, one of several in the Scotsman recently, fails to do any of this.
46

Alastair the First,

21/03/2008 09:27:27
So what Labour is saying is that these young people should be allowed to freeload while they are living with their parents, despite using council services. Ridiculous - they are working and therefore able to pay their whack.

Labour = Crooks.
47

terry osser,

morden 21/03/2008 09:36:51
do you know, here at least, 30% of your council tax pays for local govt pensions. why?
48

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:40:07
49

So pensioners wont suffer under LIT then is that no a good thing??
49

Buspass,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:44:58
Quite right #53. If they are living with Mum and using the services - they pay their share, which they are NOT doing right now.
50

It's me!,

21/03/2008 09:47:24
Well, here is the proof that Labour are the party for freeloaders. Judging from what some of their MSP's are up to with their noses in the public cash trough they are looking after their own kind. Parasites. "You pay for me. I'll use the services but still complain that they are underfunded". Each according to their means!
51

Islay Herald,

21/03/2008 09:49:05
People, if you don't like the SNP's plans for an alternative to the Council Tax then what's YOUR big idea to solve the problem?
52

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 21/03/2008 09:49:12
I've done the maths, I'd be much better off with a 3p rise in income tax. My only concern is, is it enough ? Unfortunately Govt's over the years have proved time & time again that they get the sums wrong, always at our expense.
53

SilverShred,

in the jam jar 21/03/2008 09:52:40
Wendy (face in ususal contortions)

" But think of the vulnerable 32-year olds"...

Get a grip!

54

G,

Bridgefoot 21/03/2008 09:53:17
Dooh! says Homer Swinney - I never thought of that!

These KPMG must be the hardline wing of the Unionist alliance.....

And #58 - it is not our job to get a better alternative - it is government's job to balance the books and govern repsonsibly...in this the SNP have shown they can't be trusted with the coffee kitty nevermind the economy and the national budget....
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:53:27
58

If people prefer to pay council tax there is nothing stopping them moving down to England apart from the higher cost of housing and the higher council tax bands of course.
56

Linda,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:02:21
The Scotsman to-day says it has taken the "unprecedented step" of making a front-page apology to Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.
"We do so because we accept a number of vitriolic articles in the newspaper have suggested the couple caused the death of Scotland and then covered it up.
"We acknowledge there's no evidence whatsoever to support this theory and that Alex and Nicola are completely innocent of any involvement in their country’s decline. We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted.
"As an expression of its regret, the Scotsman and Edinburgh Evening News has now paid a very substantial sum into the Independence Fund and we promise to do all in our power to help efforts to rebuild the Scottish Nation.
57

Linda,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:23:26
Didn't see banner headlines in Scotsman when Labour increased lowest tax threshold from 10% to 20% thus making all lower paid workers worse off. Now 10% to 20% is a double whammy!
58

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/03/2008 10:29:49
So now we know. After a week of in depth investigative journalism and research into LIT, by Hamish McDonnell and NuLab, it has now been revealed that:
1. The vast majority of people will pay more.
2. The top >1% of earners will pay less.
3. There will be a shortfall of £1bn.

Does anyone else see something incongruous in these conclusions?
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/03/2008 10:31:44
Correction #65

2. The top <1%...........
60

KeithD,

Fife 21/03/2008 10:34:15
Just a thought....why don't the parents charge their siblings less dig money to compensate for the income tax their siblings would have to pay or is this too simple?
61

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 10:38:44
55 Foulkes
Yes it is a very good thing and my posting did not in any way suggest otherwise. The point I was trying to make, in vain it seems, is that a continuation of the unfair council tax would be unfair to pensioners and to the advantage of young wage earners. Traditional Labour voters, still blinkered by Labour propoganda, must inevitably be around the pension age so it would be to Labour's detriment to continue with the unpopular poll-tax especially if the UK government withdraw the auxiliary money which is Scotland's by right.
62

Doh,

21/03/2008 10:41:38
#65 Frank

I dont if this counts as incongrous or just silly.

"Accountants KPMG then warned that the new tax might drive out some of Scotland's wealthiest business people, who would see their local tax liability go up from a couple of thousand pounds a year to more than £100,000 a year."

Oh the brain drain again, the sooner it starts at the Scotsman the better.

£100,000 x 1 / 0.03 ~= £3.3 Million annual income

There must be many people in this unfortunate position.
I hope I dont get trampled in the stampede.

I have also calculated that they will still have over
£3.2 Million / year left so that should just keep the wolf from the door - unless they are Heather Mills.
63

walter,

21/03/2008 10:45:52
One of the means central government has of collecting revenue is though income tax from those that work.
Central government gives councils 80% of their revenue.
This means those who earn already pay into council funding and I suppose you could say the more you earn the more income tax you pay so the more you pay to the councils revenue.
Councils have to collect the other 20% locally and a percentage of that comes from council tax.
I have always found the CT unfair as it was calculated on the worth of the house and not the income coming into the house.
They say to rectify this they are going to introduce the LIT.
The LIT has those that are already paying into the system through the 80% from central government paying even more through the 20% collected locally, yet those on unearned income who do not pay through the 80% system will not pay through the 20% either.
It does not matter how much unearned income the household receives or where it comes from they will not pay a penny towards the services provided to them by the council.
This is meant to be fair? I don't think so, at least under the CT households paid something towards the services they used.
64

Allan(handofgod137),

21/03/2008 10:51:04
#23, local income tax is not a poll tax, a poll tax means everyone pays the same. The biggest flaw with the poll tax is that it was not weighted so that those who make the most demands on services paid the most. Local income tax is a tax on sucess and ambition. What we really need is to charge the people who wish the extra services such as nursery and childcare the full costsa of providing these services.
65

Bruce wn,

Midlothian 21/03/2008 10:53:21
We have income tax what is the difference.
The council tax is taxation without representation how would the community like it if only those who pay the council tax have a vote.
The council tax is wrong, unjust and targets those with no or low income.
If you earn money over the taxation levels then you pay taxes which go towards the local community.
But lets not lose sight over what we are all really talking about which is Education and Social Services remove them from the council tax and I for one would gladly pay for the services which my property uses.
66

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:56:22
70

So please specify who these people are who have unearned income??? pensioners perhaps? those surviving on benefits??? the disabled?? or the super rich living off their share dividends abroad in the sun surrounded by dusky beauties and sipping cocktails by their own private pools while avoiding council taxation on their 5 homes on the Med.
67

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:01:15
69

Those people are already avoiding income tax by living abroad for most of the year. They only have to stay within the UK for 90 days or less to avoid income tax altogether if they own homes in the UK you can bet they will be large and worth millions and their council tax bills will be a lot less than their heating and maintenance bills.
Christ you could spin these scenarios a million ways to support any arguement.
68

Carlo,

Fort William 21/03/2008 11:04:12
I've been trying to keep my counsel to myself over the past few weeks in the hope that John Swinney and the LibDems would enlarge on the collection method and the individual cost to each potential LIT payer........

From the present data available and the proposed tweaks to the LIT system as described and released, it appears as if the middle classes and double income households will be the biggest losers all round.

This demographic is where we were gaining ground.....if we do not tread carefully this can damage us at the ballot box.......

More thought please.......John!
69

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 11:05:49
well done HAMISH MACDONELL keep itup................Reading the Comments by the little snp people do give me a laugh.....

#73

Many people myself included have income from shares it is a bit more prevalent in the 'REAL' non snp world don't you know?

70

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 11:11:36
76 Nikostratos
What do you mean little? I'm 6'2". I suppose what you mean is people of less intellectual ability than you. Well, there cannot be many of them around.
71

,

21/03/2008 11:16:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 11:18:00
#77

I mean those of little ambition..........I myself am 4'1" but size isn't important..........although manners which you sorely lack are.

73

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 11:22:24
79 Nikostratos
Do you consider it mannerly to belittle people just because they do not agree with you?
74

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:25:22
75

Are you going to show the details of how you managed to work out that then or are you just planning on leaving yer post as an opinion based on yer political views???
75

alanh,

ek 21/03/2008 11:33:55
this drivel is starting to get annoying now.

a daily drip drip of why we should just stay with the ridiculous nu labs community charge, even tho it has risen by 60+% IN THE LAST 8 YEARS, hitting the lower incomes a lot harder than the richer(or are nu lab now the party of the rich?).

Now its back to the poor , working, young peeps that have to contribute to make taxation fairer. Its not rocket science and aint new. Or is this paper, or the nu lab party that gave them the "STORY" now against income tax and redistribution of wealth?????????
76

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 11:34:22
#80


you should address that comment to all the snp sycophants.............





#18

"As for the local income tax. Yes young wage earners will have to pay their share of the costs of local services"

Did not Margaret Thatcher say that?
77

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 11:38:17
75 Carlo
"More thought please, John" - that is why there is a consultation exercise.
78

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 21/03/2008 11:46:59
Can someone please explain the difference between the poll tax & the local income tax
79

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 11:49:07
#11 AM2

You need to compare the LIT to the current council tax system rather than the woolly promises of future changes from the opposition parties.
80

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:56:31
85

You were due a fixed rate of poll tax even if you had no income at all whereas with LIT you only pay a 3% of what you earn. So with LIT if you havent got it to pay then you dont pay it with the Poll tax if you havent got it to pay then tough tittie here come the ballifs.
81

my comments!,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:56:45
The figures the Government have put out are absolute nonsense and simply do not stack up and I am astonished no one has picked up on it.

They either know about this (and are hiding the facts behind incorrect data) or they just haven't thought it through properly.

It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the tax system by those in charge.

Here's why...

The Government are attempting to explain the winners and losers at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2008/03/11141717

So - take the person on £62k per year in a band F currently paying £1,233 council tax. According to the Government they are £470 worse off because they now have to pay £1,703.

This maths is correct!
£62,000 - £5235 (income tax allowance) = £56,765
3% tax on £56,765 is £1,703

But wait...this person is *actually* better off.

The money they used to pay the council was *after* tax.

The effect of paying LIT on their take-home pay is actually only £1005.

59% of £1,703 = £1,005 - if they kept the £1,705 they would pay tax at 40% and NI at 1%

So their take home salary goes down £1,005 yet they no longer have to pay council tax of £1,233. In my book (and most accountant's books!) they are up £228 on the deal.

I guess we now know where the £1bn black hole is. Not everyone can gain!!



82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 11:57:02
#32 AM2 is being dishonest. He is not comparing LIT with the current council tax system. He is using the other parties' proposals and using their stated benefits as a datum for his figures. This type of analysis is simply based on political propaganda.
83

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:02:06
88

Governments hiding behind incorrect data who would have thought???
84

,

21/03/2008 12:07:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:09:42
87

And of course they will be accompanied with the bailiffs.
86

Phil1,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:10:26
I cannot see what the difference between this local income tax and the old poll tax is - 4 people in a house will pay 4 ammounts under this plan and one person living in a house will pay once.

We all said that was an unfair 'poll' tax when Mrs Thatcher tried to introduce it how come it is OK now that Mr Salmond tries it on?

If you have family working and living at home with you they will have pay as well you and your partner. Perhaps we should just call it another poll tax because you'll to be registered so they can collect the tax just like the poll tax. Except this time the amount they collect will be unlimited - earn a lot pay a lot more.
87

alanh,

ek 21/03/2008 12:10:27
another thing that the "journalist" that wrote then piece above(or simply pasted and copied it from nu labs hq) seems toi have forgotten , or not realised, is that the parents of these pooooooooooor young people will pay less than they currently do. maybe they would be kind enough to reduce the digs money that their offspring pay to live in their home because of it.

total NON story as usual
88

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:13:03
#93 phil

If you can't see the difference, despite it being clearly explained above, then I guess there's no point in trying to explain it again. I suspect you WANT to conclude that they are the same.
89

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:20:44
93

Then yer either an idiot or a party politically motivated lying c*nt.

The difference is very very simple.

With the "POLL" tax you paid a fixed amount if your were a registered voter on the electoral register irrespective of income or personal financial circumstances. A huge benefit to the super rich as you can see and a complete nightmare to anybody with no or very little income at all.
On top of that to avoid it disenfranchised those with little or no income from the electoral register and thus took away any chance of voting for a change in government and government policy.

LIT on the other hand doesnt give a sh*t if you vote or not but it does care if you actually earn money.
LIT takes a % of your earned income so the more you earn the more you pay and if you earn bu**er all then you pay bu**er all and if you earn a little you pay a little if you earn a lot then you pay a lot.
Thats the principle the practice of course depends on honesty and integrity but then the Government cannot be responsible for somebody elses honesty nor integrity they are barely responsible for their own.
90

Doh,

21/03/2008 12:25:11
#88

Cant fault your calculations.

However I suspect that the Council Tax payable by your example is actuall £2233 not £1233. I would guess this is a typo inthe press realese.
I make the odd typo myslef.
As to your last point, not everyone will be better off, the estimate is 80% of people will be no worse off. That is in any given finacial year.

Over their lifetime as say a student, worker, pensioner
they will find their LIT burden will reflect their income, which might find more reassuring than the prospect of an ever increasing council tax.
91

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:30:10
97

Or you can spin it to say that any pensioner living in a house with a council tax band rating from A to infinity will pay nothing and benefit by 100%.
No doubt we can all play the council tax band game to suit our points of view.
But the main fact remains the MAJORITY benefit while a small minority wont which is in fact the complete opposite of both the old poll tax and the present council tax.
92

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 12:33:10
Of course people who are working and staying at home will pay local income tax, given that it is a tax based income it stands to reason that people who are working will pay it.Hamish really is clever to have worked this out isn't he.
93

Lock,

21/03/2008 12:33:31
Why, when talking about 'fairness', is usage never mentioned? Personally I think it is 'unfair' that I would have to pay more to get ZERO more services. That is unfair. Unfortunately for me I am a talented, well qualified and productive person so my definition of 'fairness' doesn't count.
94

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 12:34:33
Swinney should drop LIT before it destroys the Scottish government and the SNP. It is fraught with problems. These include:
(1) No transition period for households with several wage owners. Even the poll tax had a transition period to soften the impact on household with several adults.
(2) Doubt as to whether LIT is allowable under the Scotland Act. My view is that Act allows Scottish Parliament to vary standard rate of income tax by up to 3 per cent either way, but not to vary higher rate tax or to have local variation. Westminster may well take this view.
(3) Not clear who will collect LIT if Westminster does not let Scottish Government use HMRC. And if it is not collected by HMRC it will have to be collected after people have received their pay or pensions.
(4) Likely shortfall compared with council tax. The actual shortfall is argued about but everybody - including Swinney - agrees there will be a shortfall.
(5) The near certainty that any new tax will meet a howl of protest.
(6) A whole raft of other unknowns.
95

Miss H,

21/03/2008 12:40:32
93 What is similar between the poll tax and local income tax is that it is a tax which is liable to be paid by an individual. What is different is that the poll tax was a fixed amount, the local income tax is a fixed rate. So to take your example of 4 people living in a house and paying exactly the same as the 1 person living next door. Under these plans they will all pay a 3p income tax after their tax free allowance is taken off.

Let's say one of them earns £20,000. If the plan was in place today they would pay around £443 per year.

If someone else earned £30,000 they would pay around £743.

If someone else earned £40,000 they would pay around £1036.

These aren't exact figures because there are different tax breaks for different types of people e.g. age related allowances and so on.

But roughly speaking that is how it would work out. So although everybody is paying the same rate of taxation - 3% - the amount that they pay depends on the amount of income that is taxable.

I think the idea that in a family where working adults live with the parents the householder pays all the council tax themselves is a bit daft. It really doesn't work that way and why should one person be liable to pay tax for everybody who lives in the house? I don't think that would be accepted in most families I know of!
96

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:44:33
101

Then you are against all local taxation on principle and not just LIT?

102

The poll tax transistion period as you call it was to introduce it into Scotland a year before England and in spite of all the protests it wasnt abolished until the English decided they didnt like it either.

The Poll tax was introduced into Scotland and not England illegally so the legal precedent has already been set.

IR will collect it from source who else??? only opposition politicians seem to think this will be a problem.

Short fall compared to council tax?? God I hope so it wouldnt be a benefit to anybody if it wasnt would it???
Never mind the FACT that the council tax was never able to raise the correct amounts due in the first place.

A new tax on top of existing taxes maybe, not a different tax to replace an already seriously unpopular tax already under howls of protest.

A whole raft of other unknowns??? even to you it seems.

Not the brightest nor best thought out troll I have read and the other efforts were bad enough.
97

The Tar,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:47:47
This article is utter tripe, and I saya that as one of the people it describes, in that I live with my parents from financial necessity. The very way in which the Labour party percieves the problem as grown adults having to pay tax, rather than the more glaring problem of grown adults who work full time having to live with there parents until well into their career tells me all I need to know about the just how far from understanding the country they aspire to run they currently are. I'm utterly disgusted with the patronising stupidity from these people.

Can someone explain to me why full time workers in decent jobs can no longer hope to own even a studio flat within 20 miles of a City. The #9 post makes the most succinct observation of the situation and is worth a read.
98

NorT,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 12:51:10
It is about time that all earning members of a household contributed to the services they use which does not happen with the council tax. Local income tax is a very fair way of ensuring everybody pays for the services they receive. This is what the polll tax was all about but it was implemented without being properly though through. Good luck to the SNP Government in their quest for fairness.
99

sheena,

at home 21/03/2008 12:56:52
AM2 tells us not to take account of individual 'stories' but to believe his global statistics. BUT - we cannot help but be most influenced by how changes will affect ourselves.

This week I have received my council tax bill which has risen slightly due to water and sewerage. I already have my new tax code and new state pension (up £3 per week). The tax code is the biggie - I will now pay 20p in the £ on my (under £200 per month) private pension. I will not bore you with details of how hard it was to put money into this pension fund from my low wages as a voluntary sector worker.

So, as from 5th April, Council tax is £30 a month more than what I have left of my private pension as tax on it has doubled. Can you see why I am more than happy to lose 3% more of my pension to local income tax rather than ALL of it to Council tax?
100

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 12:59:09
Am I alone in now flicking past the innumerable comments by AM2 largely unread? After the first few they have become largely predictable reassertions of belief. They often seem to me to be coupled, regrettably, with overtones of assumed superiority generally and vague menace towards those of differing views.
The relationship between the present and former sovereign entities within the British Isles is important not only to the citizens of these entities but, given the significant role played by the United Kingdom in international commerce and politics, to the wider world.
It needs debate and adjustment on a rational and analytical basis if everyone's interests are to be optimally served, not mindless repetition of support for the status quo.
The only sovereign entities within the British Isles that existed when the United Kingdom was formed in 1603 were England and Scotland. This remained true at the time of the Union of Parliaments in 1707.
Neither England nor Scotland was a parliamentary democracy in the modern sense at either time. Since 1707 there has been some movement towards political settlements reflecting popular feeling, notably in relation to Ireland and the Welsh, but the relationship between England and Scotland now clearly needs re-framing.
As a Scot who has spent a lot of his life in England and outside the UK, I can tell defenders of the present situation that most people without Scottish connections living in England (whether their ancestors have been there since time immemorial or only since the 20th century) think they live in a nation state called England. Most think the term “England” is synonymous with “the UK” or “Britain”.
A high proportion of people without Scottish connections in Europe and North America share this belief.
Many people without Scottish connections living in England also think Scotland is largely financially supported by England. They are unaware of or do not recognize what Scotland has contributed to the UK exchequer
101

Allan(handofgod137),

21/03/2008 12:59:48
#107 And It's high time people stopped contributing to the services they DON'T use.
102

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:00:26
since 1707, if they acknowledge it has contributed at all. Those who are aware of a contribution generally take no account of its variation with time as industries and resources have waxed and waned.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England do not recognize the contribution made to the UK economy by the large number of Scots who have settled and worked in England. They largely ignore or undervalue the contribution of Scots to the British armed forces.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England think of Scotland as a small appendage to England, shrouded in mist and rain for much of the time (a mindset unfortunately enhanced by the current BBC national weather map showing the British Isles from a satellite positioned somewhere over France).
Most people without Scottish connections living in England are unaware that the land area of Scotland is 66% that of England.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England (and, it would appear, some Scots supporters of the status quo) also assume that were Scotland to have its own sovereign parliament (regardless of whether it remained a kingdom or became a republic) a "United Kingdom" (which they presumably think would consist of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) would still exist, the assets of which would be those of the present UK (consisting of England and Scotland plus, because of developments since formation of the UK in 1603, Northern Ireland and Wales) whereas in fact Scotland owns, because it has contributed towards them through taxation and in other ways, probably about 11% of those assets.
Among some sections of English society, notably some of the press, there is currently an unpleasant anti-Scottish stance. The Daily Telegraph, a newspaper for which I have otherwise considerable respect, is at present particularly given to this. A correspondent recently felt impelled to point out that some of its anti-Scottish comment would, if it had been directed towards colour
103

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 13:01:13
#105 (1) The point about the poll tax transition period was that in the first year it was not levied in full on everyone, supposedly to ease the pain of transition in households with more than one income. That is its relevance to the article in today's Scotsman.
(2) The point about HMRC (formerly IR) is that it is an agency of Westminster not Holyrood.
(3) The point about the raft of unknowns should be obvious. Every major change of law or policy has unforseen results. Something as big as LIT is certain to have unforseen results as well as a lot of teething problems.
104

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:01:24
coloured people or Jews, likely have rendered it liable to prosecution.
I have relatives by marriage who are English. My children are a quarter English. I have innumerable friends, acquaintances and former colleagues of all nationalities, creeds and colours. I am not remotely anti-English but feel there is a substantial need for the relationship between England and Scotland to be redefined.
One obvious step within the present structure would seem to me to be rapid establishment of an English devolved parliament, and creation of a UK parliament dealing only with matters not germane to devolved English and Scottish parliaments and Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies.
More generally, some sort of federal solution would also seem worthy of consideration, in the interests of all inhabitants of the present UK.
The contributions of David Cairns, other Westminster Labour politicians and AM2 clearly relate only to their own interests, and as many other contributors have pointed out make little sense. Labour won the last election with an exceptionally small popular vote, and on a minority vote in England. Its interests and those of current Westminster politicians generally now need to come well second to the wider interests of all inhabitants of the British Isles.
105

David MacVicar,

web 21/03/2008 13:08:38
11 AM2.

Labour accounting AND 'sound' in the same sentence. That has to be joke of the day.

Had Labour won almost everyone would be worse off:

a) The council tax would currently NOT be frozen
b) Council tax would be undergoing McConnells new Banding exercise. New banding = Re-evaluation = Higher prices.
c) Given 60% increase in 10 years we could have expected an average 6% incease this year alone.
106

Busymale,

21/03/2008 13:12:24
Whats wrong with wage earners who use a service helping to pay for it? Do they really expect to be subsidised by pensioners on benefits?

This is such a disgusting argument it beggars belief! Shame on you.
107

my comments!,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:13:47
#97

There are no typos in the Government's calculations - all their figures on the tables and the documents on the website actually work out.

What they haven't done is factor in the fact that council tax is currently paid after income tax is deducted.

This means ALL their figures for winners and losers are, frankly, complete rubbish.

It also means their estimates on the percentages of 'winners and losers' is also rubbish.

They've tried to make it look like only the highest earners are the losers.

Fact is, I can't work out if *anyone* loses except the very very few people earning over £100k AND living in small houses! There is also probably a breakpoint of a few households with 2 incomes which each nearly reach the 40% tax threshold and where they currently live in a small house where they will lose out marginally.

So if very very few people are losing out and most of those are losing by only a few hundred quid and pretty much every other household in the country is £500 a month or more better off - WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM.

Whre are the real journalists who should be exposing this?



108

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:15:20
102

1. The reason the government gives for not wanting to introduce a transitional period is because it will continue the situation where richer taxpayers pay a smaller proportion of their income at the expense of poorer taxpayers. It is perfectly in order to argue against that but you need to explain why you think it is right that lower paid taxpayers should be subsidising better paid taxpayers.

2. The SNP is not proposing a variable LIT.

3. You have just said that the Scotland Act allows the Scottish Government to vary the rate of income tax. Why then would HMCR refuse to do it? There would of course have to be a payment made to cover the administrative cost but that would be very much less than the cost of administering and collecting council tax. (Also I wonder if I am the only one who thinks it is ironic that the SNP is always accused of being separatist but are now being attacked for proposing to work with Westminster to deliver a devolved policy!)

4. Yes everyone agrees - that is why the SNP has always said that this is a tax cut.

5. Given that the overall burden of taxation is being reduced and that the majority of people will pay less I doubt that.

6. There are at least as many problems continuing with the present council tax system as there would be with changing it to one based on ability to pay - not least the prosepect of a revaluation.
109

my comments!,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:15:31
oops -I mant £500 a YEAR beter off not £500 a month!

(now that was typo!!!)
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:18:52
113

Of course it wasnt it was only levied in Scotland.

HMRC are already collecting income tax from Scotland so no changes their then is there???

Those unforseen results could also be more benefits and doesnt necessarily support a scare story now does it?? the problem with the council tax is the known factor of massive increaces every year and that is a very very scary story indeed.

Youre trying to make up an argument to suit Labour party scaremongering bullsh*t and it shows.
Every thing you present is supposition or opinion without a shred of evidence or fact to back it up.
Form your own opinions if you must but at least try and keep em within the realms of probablity at least.
111

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:27:57
118 You will need to explain that.

Let's take an example. Two people living in one house - ome earns £25,000. One earns £15,000. They live in a Band D house in Fife and currently pay £1,118 in council tax.

Under the SNP's local income tax the person earning £20,000 will pay about £443 and the person earning £15,000 will pay around £287. Jointly therefore they will pay £730 as opposed to £1,118.

Now what difference does it make that they also pay a national income tax and that their national income tax is taken off their salary before they pay council tax?

112

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:37:03
118

"What they haven't done is factor in the fact that council tax is currently paid after income tax is deducted"

Eh????

Have another go.
113

democracy,

Scottish Borders 21/03/2008 13:38:44
HAMISH MACDONELL is a relentless, SNP hating, Unionist and every move he makes within the Scotsman is to discredit a party who he now forgets that the people of Scotland voted in. No worries though, because the very same people know exactly what the 'Scotsman' agenda is, and are all much wiser nowadays and have long memories!!
If we are to believe "The Scotsman" or more accurately
"The Britisher" for perceived wider sales, and the NEW Labour party, we must accept that we are much better off with the 'status quo' council tax than an 'ability to pay' solution, so just listen to the people who know best, the 'Unionists' and stop whinging about the council tax and be grateful for such a fair tax!!
114

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 13:39:12
More party political propaganda from our Hamish at Das Scotsman Sturmer. They forget to metion that a first time buyer would have to pay the council tax - what a discredible piece of garbage this article is. And he reckons it works. Then you get the flood of spin-trolls who are actually around 3 people with multiple sign in names. All this to give an impression which holds no water.

The best is this series of lies: "The row is the latest in a series of blows to the Scottish Government's plans for a local income tax, which were unveiled last week and unified Labour, the Tories, the business community and some unions in opposition to them." Labour and the Tories unified? Of course they are - they voted for the war in Iraq too. The business community is not unified against this and most Unions are for the LIT.

Did Hamish do his training in Moscow before Yeltsin got in?
115

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:45:32
116

Actually thats a good point those arguing against LIT are using the present council tax banding figures as their reference when in fact had Labour won the last election the banding would have been reassessed UPWARDS to reflect the housing market values and in fact we would be paying much more than the 4% already publicised. Wage increaces on the other hand are being kept below the rate of inflation. So those arguing against will have to change their points of reference and start again.
116

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 13:50:44
In reality the changes must be delivered UK wide if they are to work properly and fairly. Anything else could be branded "son of the poll tax for Scotland" and we don't want this sensible scheme besmirched by that association do we.

Ability to pay is more important than inability to deliver and the SNP should recognise their limitations for once in their lives and tell their supporters not to waste their vote but vote LibDem at the next UK wide general election to ensure implementation of this fairer system of raising income for local(council and devolved parliaments)government services.

There I've said it, now I await the usual diatribe.
117

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:55:07
127

There is no similarities between the poll tax and the LIT in fact they are complete opposites.
One was a tax on registered voters the other is an INCOME TAX a tax on INCOME.
Is the present national income tax just another poll tax then?? will I avoid payment if I dont register to vote???
118

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 13:57:20
#119 (1) I'm not arguing for a transitional period. I'm only pointing out that some people are going to be upset when they find they have to shell out more tax.
(2) If LOCAL income tax is not variable from one district to another it is not a LOCAL tax at all! It is a Scottish tax.
(3) HMCR is only authorised to collect a varied income tax in terms of the Scotland Act, that is a variation of the standard rate, not the higher rate. Swinney's calculations assume a variation in the higher rate too.
(4) Precisely ... but the shortfall will have to be covered somehow or the Scottish Government will go bust.
(5) Those who have to pay more will certainly object. (Your argument is the same one used by supporters of the poll tax.)
(6) Local income tax is not so much based on ability to pay but on who the government can catch - not those who live on unearned income or those in the black economy who live on undeclared income. This is not at all fair.
#121 I am not a supporter of the Labour Party. I voted SNP in the Scottish elections
119

Miss H,

21/03/2008 13:58:58
127 So that means we have to wait for the Lib Dems to win a UK General election does it?

And when do you think that will be?

Really. Surely you must be able to see the complete absurdity of that position.
120

,

21/03/2008 14:07:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
121

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/03/2008 14:07:53
#102 Pubilius

Everything in your post is true. The LIT has been barely thought-out. Attempting to introduce a very major change in the tax system with half-baked balloon-head nonsense dosn't do the SNP any favours.
122

Miss H,

21/03/2008 14:10:55
129

1. It's not going to be brought in for another 3 years which means plenty of time for people to realise that.

2. Yes it's not a local income tax as generally understood because it would not be feasible to introduce a local income tax as generally understood at this time.

3. Yes the Government will be asking HMCR to do something for them if the Scottish Parliament votes for the local income tax bill. Why not? Cooperation works both ways. If the Scottish Government cooperates with Westminster why should Westminster not cooperate with the Scottish Governent to implement a policy backed by the Scottish Parliament?

4. The shortfall is estimated to be £280 million a year. That is not going to break anyone's budget. It may mean that government at both local and national level will have to stop spendng money on crap. That's fine by most people.

5. Yes they may but they will be vastly outnumbered by those who will pay less. The consultation asks whether a cap should be put on how much the rich have to pay and it may well be that this position is taken.

6. The number of people living on dividends in Scotland is not high and the reason the government gives for not pursuing them is that it would cost more to do than they would get in taxation. But if the response to the consultation is that people think such individuals should be 'caught' then a way to catch them will be found.

123

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:16:14
#124 - 16% of the electorate voted the SNP in. That is most definitely not the Scottish people!
124

Miss H,

21/03/2008 14:16:45
131 The SNP thinks that the solution to young people getting on the housing ladder is to build more houses at more affordable prices. You need to explain to everyone why that is messed up.

Also, can you tell us how many people on low or average salaries are actually sitting in £300,000 houses that they can sell?

125

Allan(handofgod137),

21/03/2008 14:16:49
So whe is one of you pseudonat sockpuppets going to answer my previous questions as to why I should be forced to pay towards sevives i neither use or want.
126

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:17:21
129

1. the same people who would have suffered the double whammy of having their council tax increase of 4% plus their property tax band re-evaluated upwards to reflect their house value increace??

2.So if local taxes everywhere are coincidently exactly the same over a single year period then they arent local taxes at all is that right???
Do you honestly think there is a problem of local councils receiving 100% funding from the government instead of 80%?? especially when you consider its the 20% the councils raise that is the problem which is giving us the massive tax hikes in local funding.

3.Then its time to revue the Scotland act and ask why it has such an obvious flaw.

4.What shortfall?? how do you know that the council tax didnt collect too much?? in fact it must have due to the amounts paid back in rebates. No matter how much was taken in by council tax it never seemed to be enough because councils were given the responsiblity of raising 20% of their income watch what happens when this isnt the case.

5. About what?? everybody would have to pay more with the council tax increase and the rebanding anyway.

6. All taxation is based on who the Government can catch including national income tax NI VAT council tax inheretence tax savings tax etc etc.
127

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 21/03/2008 14:29:27
something has to change. i am a single male who is by no means low paid in comparison, and i am now really struggling with the amount of tax, national insurance, mortgage, student loan, gas and electricity, and other taxes i am having to pay so Labour can pay for their terrorist activities around the world. I despair how families have to try and cope, but that message seems completely lost on Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander wearing their rose tinted specs. Thats why Labour are doing so badly. I would be better off with LIT, and most people would be even more better off than me.
128

Sedov,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:34:29
Of course the present system needs reforming but not in the way that the SNP are proposing which tries to be all things to all people for the sake of continuing as a populist party. This is impossible and goes back to what the SNP really stands for which is a bit tinkering at the edges just to give the impression that you are a wee bit radical but in fact leaves the situation pretty much the same as it was before and the same as all the other bourgeois parties who pander to the bosses. Tax the rich, support the workers, take on big business, join up with the workers in other countries to smash the system and ditch the poison of nationalism - and the hell with it -thats what a real radical party should be doing! But thats not the SNP is it?
129

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:42:29
142

So what are you willing to give up in order to make everybody equal??
130

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/03/2008 14:47:10
#142 Tavorish Sedov

Salutations brother! Perhaps the state should withhold your entire salary and give you what it sees fit to give you, instead if pissing around with taxes?
131

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 14:56:44
So painful for first time buyers eh? Well, why not ask why interest rates have to go up? Can Brown explain this to new home owners? Why do these people have the highest debt per capita in the world? Can Brown explain that policy? Why have poorer people had the 10% income tax level withdrawn? Can Brown explain this? Why has student debt rocketed? Can Brown explain that policy? No, apparently it's all because the SNP are going to change to Local Income Tax in three years time. It's already caused armageddon. Unionist fantasy land!
132

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/03/2008 14:58:01
#134 Miss H

I don't believe that you wrote that line about GBP 280MM!
133

walter,

21/03/2008 15:04:38
I liked this one about taxes the first time I read it.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men — the poorest — would pay nothing; the fifth would pay £1, the sixth would pay £3, the seventh £7, the eighth £12, the ninth £18, and the tenth man — the richest — would pay £59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement — until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by £20." So now dinner for the ten only cost £80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in £2, the seventh paid £5, the eighth paid £9, the ninth paid £12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of £52 instead of his earlier £59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a pound out of the £20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got £7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a pound, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven
134

walter,

21/03/2008 15:06:31
times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get £7 back when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO POUNDS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!
135

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 15:10:10
Perhaps the other 9 should have had a higher salary in the first place.
136

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:20:06
134

There is no shortfall as there is no actual figure to determine what is due. Councils have to learn to spend what is available and not spend what they want and ask for more because they can.
We pay more and more in local taxation and get less and less for it. Its a scam of huge proportions and its got to end. LIT is a step in the right direction if it takes the 20% raising powers out of local council hands.
137

Doh,

21/03/2008 15:31:01
#148 walter

A more likely tale is that they split the bill evenly,
but as the council tax went up the other 9 realised they couldnt afford to go out for dinner any more.

So the rich guy eat alone.
Until one day he died alone.
Then he passed into heaven through the eye of needle.
138

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:32:05
149 # Or if they were from Drumchapel their incapacity benefit should have been higher.
139

Allan(handofgod137),

21/03/2008 15:34:41
So, no ones prepared to answer my earlier question, I suggest all you supporting this tax read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayan Rand.
140

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 15:42:04
Hey Morag, Drumchapel was Labour's idea.
141

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/03/2008 15:45:29
#150
Congratulations, with this statement:

'Councils have to learn to spend what is available and not spend what they want and ask for more because they can.'

You have explained what everybody is beginning to realise - that for LIT to work there has to be massive cuts to jobs and services. The other Tory party did this in the 80s and called it rate-capping. Different decade but same old tory policies, eh?
142

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 15:51:27
Grahamski,
You, like Hamish, are full of it - morning, noon and night!
143

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 15:55:08
156

No I am saying that that particular lie should be exposed for what it is complete bullsh*t.
Higher taxes means less services why is that???
its not because of the amount of tax but in the distribution of that tax and the incompetant mismanagement of that tax. On corruption and deals down with tax payers money. PFI projects are a prime example of this kind of mismangement and corruption.
With a growing population comes a natural growth in tax income anyway.
144

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/03/2008 15:56:38
Re Allan(handofgod137) #153: because it's the result of a democratic decision, taken by democratically-elected representatives.

Anyone interested in seeing a tax-free, libertarian society in action could try a visit to Mogadishu.
145

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 16:34:22
One point mainly for Miss H.
A uniform tax across Scotland levied by the Scottish government is not a local tax - period. A local tax is a tax levied by a district council and each council sets its own rate.
One point for all.
The SNP has done quite well in government so far. LIT will destroy the party's reputation for competence. It will do for the SNP what the poll tax did for the Tories. Swinney should give up on LIT before it is too late.
146

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 16:40:32
Dream on Publius,
This is a local tax because it is to be spent on local services only. It exists in other countries and exists successfully. How you jump from that to equate it to the political consequences of the poll-tax is beyond logic.

This tax will help to create a social democratic country. Labour and pals are trying to drag in the rich losers in this scheme to drown it at birth for party political gain. They care nothing about the idea of fairness in society. A victory for the LIT will be a victory for democracy and social justice.
147

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 16:43:43
#139
Your maths are a little confused. The biggest increase in taxes isn't local. It's national. 4 per cent increase in council tax is quite low compared with increases in national taxation.
You need to factor in 'fiscal lag' (sometimes 'fiscal drag'), the fact that tax allowances do not increase in line with incomes so giving the government a greater percentage increase in income tax than the percentage increase in an individual's pay.
Also VAT receipts increase in line with rises in the price of goods, so government gets more anyway. Councils can only get more by raising council tax.

148

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 16:57:32
Council Tax increased by 600% in ten years. That wasn't a big increase in tax ? Are you a stranger to arithmetic perhaps ?
149

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:31:30
163

"Your maths are a little confused. The biggest increase in taxes isn't local. It's national. 4 per cent increase in council tax is quite low compared with increases in national taxation."

Not when its added to the band revue and most people find their properties have jumped 2 or 3 bands since 1991 which I noticed you have studiously ignored in your summing up.
The proposed increase in LIT is 3% so yer statement doesnt hold water in this case does it?

"You need to factor in 'fiscal lag' (sometimes 'fiscal drag'), the fact that tax allowances do not increase in line with incomes so giving the government a greater percentage increase in income tax than the percentage increase in an individual's pay.

Factor it into what exactly?? which taxes are you actually referring to??? Trying to obscure the argument again AM2???

Also VAT receipts increase in line with rises in the price of goods, so government gets more anyway.

Which has jack sh*t to do with anything.


Councils can only get more by raising council tax."

Until LIT is introduced of course.
150

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:44:05
161

Says who?? where is it enshrined that local taxation cant be uniform??????
A local taxation is a taxation RING FENCED FOR LOCAL CONSUMPTION irrespective of how it is raised.
Funny how this uniformity argument has only raised its head since the debate on LIT was introduced.
151

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:45:19
164

And thats without the banding revue. Imagine if the banding was revued annually.
152

morris,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 17:57:08
Oh dear !

People who pay income tax may have to pay income tax !
wow!

Who would have suspected that!
The system is fairer,because it takes money from those who can afford it in accordance with what they can afford and asks progressivly less from those who cannot.
Am2 Your figures must have come from a Labour Party Publication .I think it was the Things to tell Cupid Stunts Year Book 2008 .
You cannot possibly be stupid enough to beleive it,so you must be (like most Labour Party activists) a lying toe rag.
Its garbage and replaces a tax and there are therefore winners and losers.
The vast majority are winners,but I refer to lower and middle earners,either that or Northern Ireland schools need to learn how to do arithmetic!
153

,

21/03/2008 18:09:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
154

Lady Muck,

21/03/2008 18:15:14
I'm loaded I don't mind paying tax as long as there is proportional representation so that I am not dictated to by the vast majority of the unwashed who vote Labour in their droves. I will pay to wash them (not personally of course my lily white hands are too good for that)but only as long as I get a say in what the Council does.
155

Jingling Geordie,

Sunshine on Leith 21/03/2008 18:16:35
So the young might have to endure some hardship, anyone out there now a pensioner who didn't have a hard time when they were young?
Most pensioners will benifit from the introduction of a local income tax in leu of council tax and why shouldn't they.
Many will have worked and been taxed for the past 50 years, they've paid their dues and are entitled to a bit relaxation of outgoings in retirement, surely that's fair enough.
Bring it on, the sooner the better.
156

Himself,

Aberdeenshire 21/03/2008 18:19:26
Council tax should be abolished because it is not fair, the "first time buyers" who have no houses because they live with their parents are being subsidised by pensioners who pay the full tax. If you use the facilities you should pay for them. LIT as a method of paying for local services is also unfair; the service has a cost and should be paid proporionately by its users. Exemptions can be given for those on income below say £10k. The logic of a 3% tax for local services could then be extended to say 5% for vehicle owners instead of road tax, 1% for bread per annum, 10% for cigarettes 15% for booze and so on until under the socialist equality party everyone spends all they earn to have the same standard of living. Is that not what they mean by saying those who can afford it should pay more, and subsidise the lazy baskets who are nurtured by the nanny state. However, congratulations are due to Gordon Brown and Alistair darling who have solved the immigration problem; now all immigrants who are not ordinarily resident and domiciled in the UK will add £30k a year to the treasury coffers, at least until they can spend the time here to comply. The Special relationship with the Yanks is as peril here because the US of A have stated they will not allow their citizens to offset the £30k against their US tax liability. How did these people ever get elected?
157

morris,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 18:36:37
169

The answer is that Labour are on their way out, down south,(for a long long time, maybe for ever for all I know)!
If they are to ever achieve power again, they need seats which are in the south (and naturally Tory),and must stay right of centre.Most Torys think along the lines of money,rather than principle,and lower taxes are the key to any success which Labour might achieve.The last thing Gordon Broon can afford is fair taxation north of the border ,because Labour voters down south will demand it also.How can he be a true blue leader of the "Labouratory" Party when people are behaving like abunch of socialists, and civilisation (as New Labour knows it) , no longer exists in Scotland, and in England is also no longer popular or desired.Heaven forbid that we should have a Tory government! Its much better to have a " pretendy "Tory government (called New Labour),the beneficiaries of course being exactly the same plus Broon and his cohorts stay on the gravy train.
158

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 18:37:41
If nothing else the SNP's proposed action seems to highlight the unfairness of the council tax. I see a lot of negativity around LIT from, mainly, supporter of the union. What I see very little of is a defence of a council tax system which under LIB/LAB the anti-LIT brigade were obviously quite happy to pay irrespective of the fact that it was increasing year by year until it would eventually reach the point where it would be a major part of the tax system. Perhaps some of the anti's could present a feasible, fairer system.
159

morris,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 18:45:32
170

The Labour Party claim that an end to local accountability would result from this is false(like everything else the Numpty party claims).
Dont worry,it will still be possible to kick the New Labour party out on its rear where it so richly deserves to be .
160

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/03/2008 18:51:16
No taxation system is perfect. You just have to go for what you think is the best one. The council tax will require expensive re-evaluations, the people hate it and it is really unfair. London has forced councils to raise money that way because they have reduced their grant to councils causing debt to rise and so council tax has risen by 60%. With LIT people think of it in terms of income and are unlikely to want to see a % rise - it would be politically dangerous to raise it but with council tax, they just keep putting it up and spending our income tax on wars and weapons of mass destruction.

The opposition to this is about spite after losing an election and nothing about fairness at all. the council tax is a heavy, regressive tax which concentrates on the poor. Changing this system to LIT will help create a much happier society. To oppose it just to get headlines is political bankruptcy.
161

Sambo,

The deep south 21/03/2008 19:11:16
One of the slogans going into the election last May was the abolishment of the council tax. The voters bit, now it has become a 3p income tax which under current estimates will take 100 million per year just to collect. Doesn't Mr. Salmond think things through before he makes these statements?
162

HEN BROON 5,

Listening to Labours lies. 21/03/2008 20:09:36
HERE IS WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW:

GLASGOW MPs have been branded hypocrites after failing to vote for postponing post office closures.

That's despite three of them publicly complaining about plans to shut 19 offices across the city as part of Royal Mail's controversial cost-cutting blueprint.

Not one city MP voted for a Tory motion at Westminster urging the Government to suspend the plan to shut 2500 post offices across the UK.
advertisement

Nineteen Labour MPs did revolt against the Government and many others abstained and the Opposition motion was defeated by only 20 votes.

Just two weeks ago Glasgow South MP Tom Harris slammed PO bosses for bending their own rules after he compiled a dossier showing why the latest target in his area, Pollokshaws post office, was vital to the community.

Ann McKechin, MP for Glasgow North, campaigned to save the Kelvindale and Hyndland branches, while Glasgow North West MP John Robertson fought to keep four branches in his constituency open - in Crow Road, Kingsridge, Old Drumchapel and Temple.

Neither they nor any of the other three Glasgow MPs who could have voted - Ian Davidson, David Marshall and Mohammad Sarwar - backed the bid to halt the closures.

City SNP MSPs Sandra White, Bob Doris and Bill Kidd said they should "hang their heads in shame".

Ms White said: "I cannot believe the sheer brass neck of Labour, who on the one hand have been going around telling communities they have saved their post offices and on the other have been voting to close them.

"When you consider that no Scottish Labour MP voted against these closures you have to ask the question just what and who are they representing?"

Mr Doris said: "Some Labour politicians callously mislead their constituents by pretending to campaign against post office closures, but when it comes to the crunch they vote the other way."

Mr Kidd said: "I am disgusted by the behaviour of these Labour MPs. Not one of them had the guts to d
163

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:10:11
Mr Kidd said: "I am disgusted by the behaviour of these Labour MPs. Not one of them had the guts to do the right thing and vote for the motion which would have ensured that families, pensioners and others would not lose vital local services.

"They should hang their heads in shame. They have treated the people of Glasgow with disdain."

However, Ms McKechin defended the decision not to support the Tory position.

She said: "The motion was to postpone the closures - in Glasgow they have already shut so this would have had no effect."

Mr Robertson could not have voted as he was in hospital for a minor operation.
164

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:32:44
Labour admits SNP policies are right
In a rare moment of honesty, Labour's leader has admitted that the SNP is right to seek to abolish the Council Tax.

To be fair, it's Labour's leader on Edinburgh City Council, Ewan Aitken, who said


if the SNP deliver on actually getting rid of the Council Tax as opposed to just freezing it … then they will win the next election by a mile.

I take it we'll see him supporting the abolition of the Council Tax, now that we know he knows it's the right thing to do?
165

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:37:58
11/03/2008

The vast majority of Scots will be better off as result of the abolition of council tax and a move to a fairer system based on the ability to pay, Finance Secretary John Swinney said today at the start of a public consultation.

More than four out of five households will be better or no worse off under Government plans for a local income tax.

He insisted that the proposals will mean the biggest tax cut in Scotland in a generation with those on low and middle incomes better off by an average £350 to £535 a year.

Under the Scottish Government's proposals, on average:

Single pensioners will be better off by £7.30 a week
Pensioner couples will be better off by £13.80 a week
Couples without children will be better off by £3.40 a week
Couples with children will be better off by £3.10 a week
One parent families will be better off by £5.40 a week
Single people will be better off by £3.30 a week
Households with multiple taxpayers will be better off by £2.50 a week
Only the top income decile will, on average, pay more

Mr Swinney said:

"The proposal to scrap the council tax and replace it with a local income tax represents the most progressive overhaul of Scottish taxation in years and real help for hard-pressed taxpayers. This reform is designed to offer most help to those on low and middle incomes and represents the biggest tax cut for a generation.

"Working with councils, we have already delivered a council tax freeze that will shelter vulnerable households from further increases - but the system is fundamentally wrong. Band D council tax has risen by 60 per cent since 1997. It is time for a new approach.

"Today I am launching a four month consultation on the introduction of a local income tax. This new system will be the most significant improvement in local taxation this country has witnessed.

"The council tax is unfair, regressive and penalises people on low incomes. The people of Scotland will be better off paying a fairer,
166

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:39:14
More than four out of five households will be better off or no worse off under our local income tax."

The consultation proposes:

A 3 per cent rate of tax applied to the income that is already subject to basic and higher rates of UK income tax
A tax free personal allowance that matches the UK personal allowance levels
Collection that complements the existing national system through Pay as You Earn (PAYE) and self-assessment
Exemptions for savings and investment income
A tax for second homes, subject to local requirements and with flexibility for councils to determine the rate of tax. It is proposed this will be collected by councils
Mr Swinney added:

"This is a central part of our social democratic contract with the people of Scotland. Only the top income decile will, on average, pay more. The vast majority will be better off and the local income tax will benefit most those earning the least. Those earning the very least will see an average 5.7% weekly increase in their income. Most households will pay less tax and we will put more money back into people's pockets.

"These proposals represent a reduction in the tax burden on Scotland. That will be welcomed across Scotland and is key part of our plans to create a wealthier and fairer nation.

"Everyone will be affected by the abolition of the council tax and I want to hear people's views. We cannot deliver this in isolation, and we will listen to the people of Scotland before acting on our proposals.

"The Scottish Parliament has already voted in favour of the principle of abolishing the council tax. It is now our job to inform people of our proposals and build support needed to make a fair local tax a reality."

The consultation runs until Friday July 18.

167

HEN BROON 5,

21/03/2008 20:43:30
No wonder the unionistas are running scared, the word has gone out, "stop Swinney at all costs," if he gets this through we are finished.

You can tell by the number of new numpty unionist trolls that have shown up on here in the past few weeks. The unionist press is playing the end game. IT IS TIME.

ALBA GU BRATH.
168

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 20:55:51
That's right Henny pin it all on poor John Swinney then when it all goes tit's up................Wee Alex's can ask for his resignation.Charming the snps version of loyalty.
169

Nikostratos,

21/03/2008 21:41:48
#186

Hi meths.............I had a good school it was approved.......

Meths have you seen this sometimes i despair of humanity......and my Grammar...grandma well u know

US Soldier throws puppy off cliff

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=463231
170

Gtj,

Dundee 21/03/2008 21:43:04
Continued desperate stuff from the Scotsman.

Keep it up, it didn't stop the Council Tax freeze - and it won't stop the Local Income Tax, but your nothing but a trier.
171

Phil C,

21/03/2008 22:38:39
These proposals have practically no effect on first time buyers. They affect those who overstay their welcome 'at home'.....maybe, in that they might have to rightly pay their way!
172

Rab haw,

21/03/2008 23:00:29
Hell it is a total waste of my time and anyone else's time on this site when we have to contend with the diatribe from the like of AM2 an obviously PAID scribe for some inobscure thinking for a prodigously self gorging incoherant self sucking mammmas boy... on serious issues, hel go and get plaid boyho....
173

Matt there,

somewhere 21/03/2008 23:02:17
Ha Ha! That Hamish with his satirical articles! I can remember them all!

"SNP to eat babies! Warns Labour Party hack"
then there was:
"SNP to eat babies! Warns Labour Party hack"
and who can forget Hamish's other hilarious article:
"SNP to eat babies! Warns Labour Party hack"?

What's that? You think that Hamish MacDonell is a bit of a one trick pony who only ever writes the same article, with stuff that's spoonfed to him from via Labour Party press releases?

You know... you could have a point!
174

snoozyowl,

Wales 21/03/2008 23:29:46
Local income tax is an excellent idea. Let those who use services pay for them. Except that... there are a lot of people who find ways to avoid income tax. That's why indirect taxes have merit. Perhaps the best solution is to keep council tax but reduce it by half, and then have a 1.5% tax on incomes. As for wealthy people having to pay £100k, those would be the chaps on £3.33 million per year, it seems. Why we should be worried about them I don't know, as they can afford it and also probably will find ways to avoid it.
175

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 23:46:20
191
The SNP eat babies?

Is there a recipe book?
176

Hickory,

US 21/03/2008 23:55:12
Well now, go to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=541598&in_page_id=1770
There, you can see where your tax money is really goin'
to work.... er maybe not work.
177

Strathturret,

montrose 22/03/2008 00:26:01
Did Simon (p*** poor) Pia write this garbage?

Why is the SCotsman so keen on Council Tax? Because a fairer LIT will hit high earners in Scotsman and Johnson Press?

All taxes are unfair. LIT is less unfair the Council Tax.
178

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 22/03/2008 01:34:12
W Smith,Middle East 21/03/2008 00:57:18
Jim Mather has bit of 'unearned income' that will, surprise, surprise, escape this income tax.

In fact, what our Jim recieves in annual dividends on his shares is more that the annual salary of many Scots reading this comment.

Nice one.

BTW
In Saudi Arabia several years ago the government tried to impose income tax on expats.

So many expats, including Fillipinos and Indians, resigned the Saudi government had to do a U-turn and abolish the income tax.

Salmond should take note - its one thing pushing the uneducated and unskilled around and demanding more tax but its a total different ball game when you start pushng the educated and skilled work force around.

Salmond, the economist, still hasn't worked out why so many Scots are working overseas.

DUH!

Alex Ferguson, the socialist and Labour supporter, earns around the same every year as Fred Godwin - around 4 million quid a year.

Sir Alex doesn't bring jobs or secure jobs in Scotland but will escape Salmond's income tax as he as the privelege of working and staying in England while Sir Fred is effectively 'punished' for making RBS a success.

The high fliers in Edinburgh will push this income tax on to their employers and the employer in turn may decide ITS TIME to move out of Scotland to cut costs.

Scotland has arleady lost NCR jobs to Hungary where the corporation tax, at 16%, is less than half than in Scotland, at 28%.

Maybe Salmond should stick to writing love letters to the regimes in Zimbabwe and Iran!

I'M GLAD YOU DESCRIBE LIVING AND WORKING IN ENGLAND A PRIVELEDGE, I HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT IT IS

THERE ALWAYS BE AN ENGLAND
AND ENGLAND WILL BE FREE (WHEN RID OF HANGERS ON)
179

CROSSED GEORGE,

22/03/2008 01:38:51
morris,edinburgh 21/03/2008 18:36:37
169

The answer is that Labour are on their way out, down south,(for a long long time, maybe for ever for all I know)!
If they are to ever achieve power again, they need seats which are in the south (and naturally Tory),and must stay right of centre.Most Torys think along the lines of money,rather than principle,and lower taxes are the key to any success which Labour might achieve.The last thing Gordon Broon can afford is fair taxation north of the border ,because Labour voters down south will demand it also.How can he be a true blue leader of the "Labouratory" Party when people are behaving like abunch of socialists, and civilisation (as New Labour knows it) , no longer exists in Scotland, and in England is also no longer popular or desired.Heaven forbid that we should have a Tory government! Its much better to have a " pretendy "Tory government (called New Labour),the beneficiaries of course being exactly the same plus Broon and his cohorts stay on the gravy train.

WE, THE ENGLISH NATION DEMAND TO MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS BUT THIS IS IGNORED BY BLAIR AND BROWN

WE WANT A TORY GOVERNMENT, THEN ENGLAND WILL HAVE AT LEAST EQUAL RIGHTS TO SCOTLAND
180

CROSSED GEORGE,

22/03/2008 01:57:32
ehlndh,London 21/03/2008 13:00:26
since 1707, if they acknowledge it has contributed at all. Those who are aware of a contribution generally take no account of its variation with time as industries and resources have waxed and waned.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England do not recognize the contribution made to the UK economy by the large number of Scots who have settled and worked in England. They largely ignore or undervalue the contribution of Scots to the British armed forces.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England think of Scotland as a small appendage to England, shrouded in mist and rain for much of the time (a mindset unfortunately enhanced by the current BBC national weather map showing the British Isles from a satellite positioned somewhere over France).
Most people without Scottish connections living in England are unaware that the land area of Scotland is 66% that of England.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England (and, it would appear, some Scots supporters of the status quo) also assume that were Scotland to have its own sovereign parliament (regardless of whether it remained a kingdom or became a republic) a "United Kingdom" (which they presumably think would consist of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) would still exist, the assets of which would be those of the present UK (consisting of England and Scotland plus, because of developments since formation of the UK in 1603, Northern Ireland and Wales) whereas in fact Scotland owns, because it has contributed towards them through taxation and in other ways, probably about 11% of those assets.
Among some sections of English society, notably some of the press, there is currently an unpleasant anti-Scottish stance. The Daily Telegraph, a newspaper for which I have otherwise considerable respect, is at present particularly given to this. A correspondent recently felt impelled to point out that some of its anti-Scottish comment would, if
181

Albina,

Harrogate 22/03/2008 06:29:16
Welcome to the real world, Scotland!

Albina
182

Eve,

22/03/2008 19:04:41
Who on earth is planning to buy house this year/ at the moment!!! Really unless they are multi millioner it's no worth it!! What with the high risk of the market going in to ressesion.

Even folk who have purchase house within the the last few years are at risk from loseing money (value of house bing worth much less than they bought it for) or higher interst rates putting up there monthy morgage by a large amounts that they might NOT be able to afford the payments.

I don't know if this artcle is true or faulse BUT one thing I do know is it take a brave person to enter on to the houseing market with the way things are at the moment.
183

Eve,

Scotland 22/03/2008 19:05:33
#199 Albina: What are you on about?

 

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