Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


T in the Park

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Salmond's seduction wins over business



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 02 May 2008
A SCOTSMAN survey today reveals the Scottish National Party is winning the battle for the hearts and minds of Scotland's business community.
As the party prepares to celebrate 12 months in office after winning the election a year ago tomorrow, Alex Salmond will be delighted at the results of our poll which shows that the business community is starting to believe in the SNP. Backing from business is vital if the Nationalists are to achieve independence and the First Minister has made great efforts to woo its support.

His cuts in rates for small businesses and the axing of tolls on the Forth and Tay road bridges have proved popular.

Many businesses have said they now feel that they have someone who is willing to listen and who will fight their corner.

Influential figures such as the entrepreneur Sir Tom Farmer say that while the SNP has made an encouraging start, the party now needs to "put some meat on the bones". However, The Scotsman's poll, of 648 businessmen and women, will put a smile on the First Minister's face as it found 39 per cent were now more in favour of independence than 12 months ago.

And 57.5 per cent of respondents believed the SNP was doing a good or excellent job in power.

Only 18.2 per cent thought that the Nationalists' performance had been poor or disastrous.

According to people from across the business community, the SNP's cut of business rates, in the Small Business Bonus Scheme, has brought cheer to many and swung support towards them.

It has seen many small businesses save hundreds or even thousands of pounds a year, boosting their profit margins by up to a third.

The aim of growing Scotland's economy, recently dismissed by leading Scottish economist Arthur Midwinter as being impossible to measure, has been popular within the business community.

Other measures like ending the bridge tolls, bringing in a new qualifications scheme for schools and giving a clear schedule for transport works have pleased the business world.

Also, the much politically criticised move of calling in Donald Trump's £1 billion golf resort in Aberdeenshire, after it was rejected at council level, has deeply impressed businesses.

Iain McMillan, the director of CBI Scotland, told The Scotsman: "The Trump issue was very important because it gave a signal, after the terrible decision by the council committee, that Scotland is open for business and whatever the political fallout, businesses viewed the SNP's actions very positively.

"We have been very impressed that the Scottish Government has set growing the economy as one of its top priorities."

But he added: "I think the jury is out at the moment. There have been many positives and some negatives. The SNP have engaged with business, the cuts in small business rates have been good, we like the skills and qualifications scheme and we are pleased that the Scottish Government has given a timetable and committed to spending money on transport infrastructure improvements.

"On the other hand, we were not pleased that they cancelled the Edinburgh Airport rail link and a lot of members are not happy that they are trying to get Scotland out of the UK.

"Also, we worry about the local income tax proposal and the message that will send out, that Scotland is the highest-taxed part of the UK. That is not a business-friendly attitude.''

Mr McMillan went on: "In addition, the changes to Scottish Enterprise have been a mixed bag. We were pleased with the general direction, but not with giving business gateway responsibilities to councils."

After emerging from the 3 May poll last year with one more seat than Labour, the SNP had to persuade bosses that business would not be placed way down the agenda.

So Mr Salmond picked one of their own to go and talk to them. Jim Mather, the enterprise and tourism minister, has a strong track record as a businessman and is at the heart of pushing the efforts to boost tourism by 50 per cent in Scotland.

"We like the efforts Jim Mather has made, although time will tell on the target," said Dumfries and Galloway B&B owner Alan Keith.

Mr Mather said his approach was to talk go out and talk to as many sectors of the business community as he could.

"My feeling is that the business community did not feel the previous administration engaged with them properly," he said. "One of my main tasks is to go out and talk to all these sectors, get people together and see what we could do about growing Scotland's economy.

"We have set that as one of our top priorities and I think that has chimed well with business people."

Sir Tom Farmer does not regret the £100,000 he gave to the SNP to fight the 2007 election. "There's a buzz about the country at the moment," he said.

"People in the business world who questioned my actions before now say that the change has been a good thing for the country."

But the SNP's political opponents have warned the Nationalists are enjoying a honeymoon period which will end.

Labour's finance spokesman, Iain Gray, said: "These results are not surprising considering the effort and public money ploughed into putting a positive spin on independence."

Tory finance spokesman Derek Brownlee said: "This reflects that many in the business community are enjoying the benefits of the cut in business rates pushed through in the budget by the Conservative Party."

And Lib Dem finance spokesman Tavish Scott noted: "I have yet to meet a businessman who wants the SNP government to waste its time debating independence."

VERDICTS

ALLAN KEITH, Bed and breakfast owner in Dumfries and Galloway.

"On the whole I've been impressed with the way that Jim Mather has approached some of the problems, especially by tackling the VisitScotland website. That has impressed people in the trade.

"There are still problems, especially with over-regulation. Their aim of 50 per cent increase in tourism is positive, but they need to deliver."

MOHAMMAD SHEIKH, 41, who owns the Home Collections in Kilbirnie, North Ayrshire

"I voted Labour last year, but now I would vote SNP. I think Alex Salmond is a strong leader who is fighting hard for Scotland, much harder than Labour did before him.

"I was very pleased with the cut in business rates because it means I have a lot more money I can spend on my family. I have three children, so having extra money in my pocket really makes a very big difference.

"I'm not sure about independence but I think it's worth looking at down the line and there needs to be more of a campaign on it first."

ANDY WILLOX, FSB Scotland's policy convener.

"The Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) in Scotland has been impressed by the SNP's first year in government.

"The introduction of the Small Business Bonus is having a real and positive effect on the cash flow of around 150,000 of Scotland's small businesses and is endearing the SNP to the small business community. Other key commitments, such as the abolition of tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges, are again giving the small business community reasons to be positive. However, there are still some areas of concern as energy and fuel prices spiral upwards and large scale supermarkets and out-of-town shopping centres continue to get the thumbs up."

JIM McCOLL, Chairman and Chief Executive of engineering company Clyde Blowers.

"I think most of what has happened over the last year has been pretty positive. I like the idea of the focus of the government being on economic growth. I get the same message from business colleagues.

"It has been good to have a government that recognises we need to grow the economy and encourage entrepreneurs to pay for all the other things we need to improve the quality of life for all people in Scotland.

"The SNP are a minority government and do seem to have accepted that they need to work with people, including the business community. I'm just a bit disappointed that some of the opposition parties have been a bit more negative."

SIR TOM FARMER, leading Scottish entrepreneur who gave the SNP £100,000 to fight the 2007 election.

"I am very pleased with my investment, because the money I gave to the SNP was an investment into the future of Scotland.

"There seems to be a buzz around the place at the moment, it's hard to put your finger on why that is exactly, but the change of government has brought a positive feeling to Scotland.

"However, the SNP now need to put the flesh on the bones of what they have achieved over the next three years. I only gave them money to help even up the fight because I thought Scotland needed a change.

"I think even the Unionist parties have quietly agreed with more independence for Scotland, even if it is not total independence, but it is hard to really see what independence really means."

SEEKING ANSWERS

The Scotsman did not use a professional polling company for the survey. Nevertheless, it is a useful snapshot because it questioned subscribers to scotsman.com's Business Briefing service.

Thousands of managing directors, senior managers and business people have signed up to the service, to receive daily updates from Scotsman journalists.

To read Business Briefing, go to business.scotsman.com

Registered users who wish to join the thousands of others who receive the Business Briefing daily newsletter, visit the Members Area portion of the site (button top left of any screen) and select Email Preferences.




The full article contains 1615 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 00:15:17
"And 57.5 per cent of respondents believed the SNP was doing a good or excellent job in power."

"However, The Scotsman's poll, of 648 businessmen and women, will put a smile on the First Minister's face as it found 39 per cent were now more in favour of independence than 12 months ago"

Is this the Scotsman!?
2

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/05/2008 00:16:50
Quite a lot of unison from members of the business community.

Business people look in their till to decide if a government is doing a good job of managing things.

You can't spin away the fact that the SNP's initiaves are helping business in creating more jobs.
3

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 00:17:33
...And just how many were in favour then?

Any chance of a cumulative total?
4

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/05/2008 00:18:40
#1

Is this the Scotsman?

Yes Conan I'm surprised they haven't critised the validity of their own survey
5

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 02/05/2008 00:18:46
#1

Is this the Scotsman?

Yes Conan I'm surprised they haven't critised the validity of their own survey
6

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 00:26:29
7
Hi Spook.Have a good birthday?
7

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 01:00:52
"Business"? What does that mean? Pointless spreadhseet shufflers in the financial district? Merchants who buy and sell shell suits making their cash by encouraging slave labour abroad and ripping off their neighbours at home?

Winning respect from "Business" is meaningless, companies do not have a vote!

Engineering and manufacturing, farmers and GP medical partnerships. Is that "business"? I wish it was!
8

GBscot,

Idaho Falls 02/05/2008 01:26:29
The cancellation of EARL will come back to haunt SNP and the Tory cohorts who backed them in the vote. Still no sign of a replacement EARL, one wonders if they are hoping the country will forget. SNP didn't forget the M74 extension nor the Glasgow Airport rail link. One must assume they are using the original EARL
funding to finance their policies at the expense of Edinburgh and the East of Scotland.?
9

somerferg,

Perth 02/05/2008 01:44:35

#10 - brrr, brrr, brrr, brrr - yes thats the sound of crickets. You must be feeling VERY lonely as your waffle just doesn't seem to be getting through - shame really :]
10

subrosa,

02/05/2008 02:02:25
# 14

You're joking surely saying 'at the expense of Edinburgh'. There's more money ploughed into Edinburgh than any other city in the country, far more. If the Edinburgers choose to use it for a single tram line then so be it. It won't come back to bite the SNP - they voted against it.
11

Wisnaeme,

wisnae there 02/05/2008 02:22:46
Ah, I wondered if a Mr Trump's name would appear in this article, himself being an entrepreneur businessman.

...are where is the penny's worth of not very news worthy comment of not a lot from Nicol then?

Tell me do Mr Stephen, would you say your business acumen pronouncements were helpful in regard to an investment by the sea side.

or was that business acumen less than helpful to yourself in the cackhanded way you dealt with your self's and your speciality of being economical with the truth.

I suggest Mr Nichol Stephen ponders his usefulness in matters of business and considers his options elsewhere.

Or just takes a long holiday and give us all a break from his endevors to create something out of nothing.
.
.


12

Alan Reid,

NZ 02/05/2008 03:01:37
This is good, well done the SNP.
13

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 03:02:53
19 Bob10

I appreciate your point. Winning business is about soliciting donations.

On a banal point of correctness, political donations are not tax deductable for a company.

"Wholly, necessarily and in the course of business" is the general rule, tax deductions for political donations specifically included in the legislation as exempt. Also, if I recall correctly (used to do this crap), any political donations must be noted in the public accounts of a company.
14

Watson,

Irvine 02/05/2008 03:06:07
Only 18.2 per cent thought that the Nationalists' performance had been poor or disastrous.

I wonder what this 18.2% thought of Nu Labour's performance over 8 years?
In the English/Welsh council elections the Nu Labour Party have lost over 100 seats
15

KampungHighlander,

02/05/2008 04:22:40
#10 Alfie
"Winning respect from "Business" is meaningless"

I guess when you cannot attack the facts, your best strategy is to diminish their importance. I guess we are going to see the Unionist mob rather than quoting polls, trying to say polls are unimportant as their numbers slide into the mire.

#18 Nobby
"One should never forget that Adolf Hitler wooed German Business in the 1930's because he wanted it's support. History shows what that led to."

When you can't attack policy, your only resort is slander and innuendo. Looks like you have lost the argument.

When are we going to get some really skilled minds supporting the Unionist side. The current lots performance is so pathetic it even makes Wendy look brilliant.

When is AM2 going to crawl out from under his rock?
16

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 04:40:42
#1 Conan. It is, indeed, the Hootsmon. That's why they had to use a pejorative term like "seduction" in their headline for this article. They just can't help themselves; but when you consider the ownership, the management and the staffing of the Hootsmon, I suppose it shouldn't be surprising.
17

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/05/2008 07:10:14
These Salmond policies have nothing to do with independence. They are good policies under any system.

Businessmen anxious to get into bed with SNP should, however, first ascertain and then evaluate SNP's post independence economic plans. I think we'd all like to know these, please. Some SNP supporters speak of land nationalisation, for example. Is this official policy?
18

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 02/05/2008 07:14:50
Who pays for all these freebies?
19

brownlie,

02/05/2008 07:34:12
26 AM2

Oh dear, as one of your strongest allies I fear the nats will make hay of your unfortunate quote from George Orwell.

They might point out that he was a Democratic Socialist who believed in free debate and free elections so he would definitely favour the free debate in the nats Conversation exercise. He would certainly be opposed to the extremely limited debate - open only to a chosen few - which is our Review. Being in favour of free elections he would almost certainly be in favour of a referendum.

I feel that it was a mistake to use the quote "Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty" which may give the nats the opportunity to accuse us unionists of flagrant dishonesty, given that we find it difficult to find any real evidence of this on the Scottish National Party.

Can I suggest a little bit more research before we come out with statements of this nature.
20

Geoff,

29 02/05/2008 07:37:43
29 Rules-well said. The SNP have given Scottish politics a fresh face and they have seemingly performed well under Alex Salmond but this does not necessarily translate into support for Independence.As I have said before and without in any way detracting from the SNP deserved first year accolades, they could hardly fail against the dismal performance of NuLabour-have yous seen the England/Wales local election results thus far!
Meths-if ur out of yer bed-did my Gers redeem themselves?
21

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 07:38:06
31 brownlie

You are talking crap. The national conversation isn't free debate.

A referendum is a waste of time in 2008. The SNP want one in 2010 so there is noone that wants it before then, what the fork are you on about?

Another hate-filled post from you denouncing democracy and making up double think labels for the SNP ministry of truth.
22

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 07:53:02
#32 AM Squared.

You do have a habit of shooting yourself in the foot, don't you.

In any event, as an Irishman, what do you have to say about Mahatma Gandhi's comments on nationalism?

“I want the freedom of my country so that other countries may learn something from my free country… so that the resources of my country may be utilised for the benefit of mankind.”

“My love, therefore, of nationalism or my idea of nationalism is that my country may become free, that if need be the whole of the country may die, so that the human race may live. There is no room for race hatred there. Let that be our nationalism.”

“Our nationalism can be no peril to other nations in as much as we will exploit none, just as we will allow none to exploit us.”

“It is impossible for one to be internationalist without being a nationalist. Internationalism is possible only when nationalism becomes a fact, i.e., when peoples belonging to different countries have organized themselves and are able to act as one man. It is not nationalism that is evil, it is the narrowness, selfishness, exclusiveness which is the bane of modern nations which is evil.”

Mahatma Gandhi
23

,

02/05/2008 07:55:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

,

02/05/2008 08:10:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

,

02/05/2008 08:12:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Nikostratos,

02/05/2008 08:21:41
"The Scotsman did not use a professional polling company for the survey."

Therefore as the snp would say we dismiss this survey as inaccurate and misleading........you may as well as put your thumb in the air...
27

donald,

glasgow 02/05/2008 08:21:42
"Seduction"? Honeymoon"? Is this th News of the Screws?
28

Stephen101,

Seduction? Or just competent 02/05/2008 08:28:35
No it is not seduction, SNP is popular with businesses because it is competent and knows what it is talking about and is clear about where it wants to get to.

Talk to Civil Servants who work with these ministers and they love it. Previously they had ex teachers, community workers, social workers thrust into positions they could not comprehend. Anything approaching a decision needed detailed evaluations, fact finding missions, 'best advice', in fact anything to make sure theur backs were covered. It took at least 18 months to educate them on what their job was, then a year doing it, and then the rest preparing to be re-elected.
SNP ministers arrived on top of their briefs with experience from the 'real world'.If a minister believes it is right to do something they say fine get on with it!


They might not get it all 100% right, but by God at least they are trying, and they have the skills and experience to make it happen.

The sooner the Scotsman wakens up to the fact that we could be entering a golden age for Scotland the sooner we will start to get balanced articles here that are based on fact.

The word seduction just triviliases the reality of what SNP has achieved in such a short time.
29

Stephen101,

Where is AM2 going??? 02/05/2008 08:31:38
Hey AM2, are you going back to Ireland/Ulster/N Ireland/the wee six/the 6 counties?

If so when, and do intend returing?

Will you have internet access when you do go? (My hired killer is awaiting the answer to that last one with some eagerness)
30

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 08:32:18
#38 AM Squared.

I was merely asking your opinion on Gandhi's comments on nationalism; especially as you seem to be dead set againsy any form of nationalism. Are you therefore saying that Gandhi was talking rubbish?

As for your other extracts from your filing system regarding things I have said in the past, let me put you straight on a few of them.

The English are foreigners. They are Germanic in their origin (Angles, Saxon, Jutes etc.). That is a fact. They are war-mongers and neighgbours from hell; just look at their history, particularly in relation to Scotland.

Scotland is under the imperialist yoke, and the jackboot of English colonialism. Again, a fact. They only hang on to Scotland as we are subsidising them. They would only consider giving us our independence when they can get no more out of us, and they can no longer exploit us.

I may, now and again, remind people of your Irish origins . This is only to allow them to wonder at why you are so virulently anti-Scottish, and what your motives are. I must admit, I am still puzzled by your motives, and can only assume that something on your background makes you so pro-English. Incidentally, unles you are, for some reason, ashamed of being Irish (and I cannot see any reason why you should be ashamed) what is your problem?

As for me telling you to go back to Ireland, I think you will find that what I said was that if you are so desperately unhappy living in Scotland, that perhaps you should consider going home. I consider that a fair comment. After all, if I was desperately unhappy at living in another country, I would move, or go home.

Anyway, I notice you, in your usual fashion, introduce assorted other bits to try and avoid the question - you do this regularly. That being, of course, do you think Gandhi was a fool or an idiot because he believed in nationalism?
31

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/05/2008 08:37:50
Gandhi was a South African. Just a thought.
32

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 08:41:53
Another piece of evidence that the SNP are Scotland's Tories. The SNP is a party bankrolled by businessmen, strongest in areas that were once Tory and pursuing pro-business policies. It is a good thing that Scotland now has a vibrant centre-right party. But it's a pity that many nationalists won't admit that that's what the SNP is.
33

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 08:48:28

#47 Guga II
You write "The English are foreigners. They are Germanic in their origin (Angles, Saxon, Jutes etc.). That is a fact. They are war-mongers and neighgbours from hell; just look at their history, particularly in relation to Scotland."

Is this what the SNP means by civic nationalism? ... Or ar eyou a unionist agent provocateur?
34

brownlie,

02/05/2008 08:49:08
35 AM2

Sorry, I did not realise that you are the sole judge of what constitutes unionism and I further did not realise that being a unionist precludes a person from pointing out any flaws in the system.

I was pointing out what I saw as flawed reasoning in quoting Orwell and attempted to point out Orwell's real thoughts on politics.

I, also, note with a great deal of concern, as I suspect do my fellow Scottish voters, the inherent unfairness of the Review.

This review was set up by three parties who, individually, are minority parties with no electoral mandate to govern this country.

These individual parties have, since the election, sought to stifle, quite often farcically and against their individual principles, any initiative by the democratically elected Scottish Government.

To further by-pass the democratic process in Scotland they have set up this review with even more narrow aims than mine could ever be. They have filled this review with individuals who are by no means representative of the Scottish electorate and they have ensured that you and I will have no opportunity to air our views and I cannot think of one person on the review with the courage to air my views for me. Indeed, the review has the potential to become a ridiculed charade.

Facing facts again, the democratically elected Scottish Government have in the National Conversation set up a forum where you and I and any other Scottish voter, irrespective of political persuasion, can make our views known.
35

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 08:49:26
51 Bob Christie

What's the weather like up your own ass?
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 08:50:01
#18 Bob

Disgraceful comment. You really should be ashamed of yourself!
37

Alastair the First,

02/05/2008 08:52:24
"And Lib Dem finance spokesman Tavish Scott noted: "I have yet to meet a businessman who wants the SNP government to waste its time debating independence.""


In that case, pop in and see me sometime, Tavish. Although I wouldn't describe it as "wasting its time".
38

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 08:55:47
#52 Publius.

Strange as it may seem, I am not a member of any political party; that way I retain the right to criticise any or all of them.

Not only do I criticise the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, I also criticise the Whigs and, when they put their heads above the parapet, the Tories. Moreover, if you regularly read these posts, you will see that I feel free to criticise the SNP also, particularly that waste of space Kenny MacAskill.

In any event, what has nationalism in Scotland got to do with foreigners? I don't mind foreigners, unless they threaten me or my country, but I do not want my country to be run by foreigners. I even know some Englishmen.
39

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 08:58:22
#26 AM2

You do yourself no credit with childish statements like this:

"Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty,"
40

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 08:59:43
#26 And before you say that is was Orwell's statement, you are endorsing it!
41

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 09:02:58
#29 Rules

True, but Labour linked independence to business during last year's election campaign.
42

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 09:04:47
#32 AM2 performing back-flips........
43

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 09:05:30
hmm a positive snp story by the scotsman anyone would think that labour has just lost an election and the scotsman are now trying to shore up their circulation figures...................
44

Boggle fey the Bog,

02/05/2008 09:07:09
AM2 and others, various posts.

In a recent poll carried out on a consumer survey site 77% of the respondents favoured Independence for Scotland with only 23% against, those against gave the reason for Not wanting Scottish Independence as being the fact that they needed Scotland's Oil.
The question put was as follows:-

'Given that Scotland is an older country than England , should Scotland retake it's place as an Independent Country?'

We could go on all day about polls, but at the end of the day the only ones that matter are elections.

BOT: The article is unusually biased, against no one, strange for the Hootsmaun.

Are they realising that by their 'blind faith' in the Onion, they are loosing readers? Are they finally realising that a good newspaper reports 'News' and is not a 'mouthpiece' for Political Party 'PR people'.
______________________

'The aim of growing Scotland's economy, recently dismissed by leading Scottish economist Arthur Midwinter as being impossible to measure, has been popular within the business community'

Seems a strange position for Nu Labour/Owld Tories 'leading economist' to take, after all when Black Jack was in power, was not the very same person 'Issuing figures' about the rate of economic growth within Scotland compared to the rest of the UK?
Bleak Midwinter indeed, the man's a discredited charlatan.
______________________

The latest ABC figures for the Scotsman for Feb-Mar 08 are ave. distribution of 53,128.

and for SoS are 71,622.


45

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 09:16:40
am2 orwell also said.

It can be plausibly argued, for
instance--it is even possibly true--that patriotism is an inoculation
against nationalism, that monarchy is a guard against dictatorship, and
that organised religion is a guard against superstition. Or again, it can
be argued that NO unbiased outlook is possible, that ALL creeds and
causes involve the same lies, follies, and barbarities; and this is often
advanced as a reason for keeping out of politics altogether. I do not
accept this argument, if only because in the modern world no one
describable as an intellectual CAN keep out of politics in the sense of
not caring about them. I think one must engage in politics--using the
word in a wide sense--and that one must have preferences: that is, one
must recognise that some causes are objectively better than others, even
if they are advanced by equally bad means. As for the nationalistic loves
and hatreds that I have spoken of, they are part of the make-up of most
of us, whether we like it or not. Whether it is possible to get rid of
them I do not know, but I do believe that it is possible to struggle
against them, and that this is essentially a MORAL effort. It is a
question first of all of discovering what one really is, what one's own
feelings really are, and then of making allowance for the inevitable
bias.


Whats your bias then AM2..... brit nat nationialism?
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 09:20:42
#35 AM2 Dare I say that your post sounds dangerously like your own propaganda campaign.

The Constitutional Commission was holed below the water line by democracy.
47

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 09:20:54
The truth is that england and scotland are supposed to be a union of equals. How can we be a union of equals when scotland has its own parliament and england does not. The only fair way to rebalance the union is to give england its own parliament however to do this then scotland must have complete control of all the powers of a parliament otherwise the political power again becomes unbalanced. It follows then that devolution max which is independence by another name is the only way forward. Each parliament scottish english welsh and northern irish must each have complete control of political power over the area which it governs otherwise the union is dead.
48

Mikey,

02/05/2008 09:27:01
It's funny that the virulently anti Scottish posters seem to favour Brit nationalism? Are we to assume that Brit nationalism = good, Scottish nationalism = bad?

Or maybe AM2 (who sometimes is capable of a good arguement) is a realist who knows that should Scotland separate from the rest of the UK, then UK plc. would go down the tubes tout de suite?
49

Mikey,

02/05/2008 09:28:11
Karinxxx, I would suggest that as a union of equals, the country of Scotland should have EXACTLY the same amount of MPs at Westmonster as England does!
50

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 09:34:43
Iain Gray, said: "These results are not surprising considering the effort and public money ploughed into putting a positive spin on independence."


So he doesn't trust business to make its own decisions and thinks they are gullible enough to be swayed by what he seems to think is an advertising campaign for independence? No wonder they're sinking in the polls.
51

union member,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 09:35:19
Tories coming home to roost, I see!

Good to see the CBI congratulating the Government for overturning local democracy. Maybe they'll be in favour of a military coups too!
52

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 09:44:32
Didn't the issue of Scottish 'independence' die the other day?

Even though support is at it's lowest ever along with the continuing slide in the SNP's poll lead, is there still some sign of life in that tedious beast?

Astonishing.
53

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 02/05/2008 09:44:50
50 Publius,London

Get a grip! The SNP is by its very nature a party of people from different and varied political backgrounds and experiences. Which actually makes it more balanced in its approach. I am sure most SNP members are happy to have their party support business, because business is something everyone has an interest in, be they the business owner or the employee.

What clearly upsets you is this is proof that Scotland IS a nation of can-do will-do people who only need a little encouragement in the directions they wish to go. As opposed to the subsidy junky myth so beloved down south.
54

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 09:45:06
AM2 #26

As you well know - since you are clearly not stupid - the result for such questions in any poll depend upon the question you ask. Or are you saying you doubt the two polls that showed support for independence being at 40% or over? If so, you are also guilty of cherry picking from polls that favour your political stance.

As for Orwell, I think you'll find that he was still very much the British nationalist and patriot despite his dislike of the right. Interestingly enough, he once wrote an article for Tribune in which he supported Gaelic (notably, this came during the two years he was living in Jura and writing Nineteen-Eighty-Four). Regarding the quote you selected, I'd argue that nationalism is an assertion of the right to self-determination through having more control over the decision making process. If anyone is convinced of being in the right, it seems to be you.
55

AJ Fife,

02/05/2008 09:51:07
Normally the Scotsman would bury such favourable results for the SNP! What's changed? Has AM2 and his team been kicked into touch at long last?
56

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 02/05/2008 09:52:19
10 Alfred E. Neuman

I'd lay off the cratur Alfred. I could not make head not tale of that guff you wrote. Maybe if I was p*ssed as a f*rt too I'd understand it.

Does this evidence of a vibrant Scotland embracing its politicians and working together really upset you that much?
57

Ananurhing,

02/05/2008 09:52:30
Not been on here for a while. Been a bit busy. WTF happened in the last 24 hours?
Nulab have achieved their flagship policy goal of total meltdown.
Tom Brown of the Herald on Newsnight last night apologising, and admitting he was wrong about the SNP government.
Now an unbiased, balanced report from the McPravda!
I think I need a wee lie down.
Job done I would say.
Looks like without a doubt, most definitely..........,
" It's yon time" already.
58

Venachar,

02/05/2008 09:53:56
Gordon Brown and the Labour Party would just love to have Alex Salmond and the SNP's ratings. No matter what party you are from when was the last time either a party or a leader was so far out in front.
Quite simply the SNP are doing things right in most peoples eyes.
Gordon Brown on the other hand is just proving how inept he is! Don't give him more than one thing to think about because he cannot cope. He thought he could be PM because he sat in 11 Downing Street and had all year to prepare for one day in March. He did not get it right, pensions theft and gold sales are two old examples. Left overs from his time as Chancellor the 10p tax band and the increased tax on vehicles, now they are even considering back dating to older vehicles. Do they not understand that people get fed up with crackpot policies particularly when it hurts them in the wallet.
God help us if there is a real emergency he does not know his errse from his elbow. Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander are the best adverts for the SNP going.
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/05/2008 10:01:35
Hi AM2.

See you're back with your usual, negative, selectively quoted, diversionary distortions. We must be on Election Alert!!!!
60

brownlie,

02/05/2008 10:04:18
34 Alfred

So you've escaped from the jacket again.

No matter how deluded you are, and I do sympathise with your affliction, you will not find any hate in any of my postings.

You may find a degree of contempt in some of them but I do not blindly believe that individuals with opposing views are entirely lacking in sincerity or merit.

What I do find contemptible are postings, with no evidence to back them up, which make statements that are blatantly untrue. Whilst you certainly do not have the monopoly on them just about every posting from you contains elements of that. If such statements are made I am quite happy to lampoon or ridicule them and will continue to do so.

61

Andrew D,

Brisbane 02/05/2008 10:06:31
Hand on heart I'm astonished that the Scotsman published this.

Though I'm sure normal service will be resumed with the Labour partisanship coming to the fore again soon enough. (Please prove me wrong!)

Oh to the numpty that tried to say that Alec Salmond is a proto-Adolf Hitler: pull your head in!
62

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 10:09:53
scotsman yer not fooling us this is just an attempt to keep the election results for labour off the front page.
63

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 10:10:46
this article is to make you stop here and not go on to comment on labours dismal election results in the politics section..............
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 10:12:15
Does anybody fancy a game of "Spot the Difference"

In 2007 Alex Salmond took over power from a Labour administration with a policy of lowering taxation. This would release the entrepreneurial spirit of the people thus stimulating economic growth and reversing years of economic underperformance relative to neighbours.

In 1979 Maggie Thatcher took over power from a labour administartion with a policy of lowering taxation etc. etc. etc.

I am not saying that the policy is wrong but why is it being hailed, by people in Scotland, as visionary when enacted by one when it was rejected and vilified by when enacted by the other?

PS sorry about the spelling of entr........ if I got it wrong.
65

brownlie,

02/05/2008 10:15:27
72 Highland

Good morning, I hope you found the sheep particularly active this morning. Yes, you are quite right independence is a dead duck - Alfred and your alter ego AM2 have convinced me of that. As soon as he was released this morning Alfred consulted the oracles and his findings have astonished the nats and Salmond has admitted defeat and he fled to a beach somewhere in the north-east where he is being consoled by what is left of the nat legions - one man and his dog. Mission accomplished so you have achieved your objective so you do not need to amuse us any more with your articulate and compelling postings.
66

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 10:19:10
70. Union member - I think you will find it was Labour who appointed Digby Jones, former CBI director, to a minsterial job.

Can you explain your comment "over-turning local democracy" ? Given that the full Aberdeenshire council voted massively in favour of the Trump application, in what way does the government putting it to a full public enquiry constitute "over turning local democrarcy"?
67

Arfur,

02/05/2008 10:19:44
#50 Publius - 'It is a good thing that Scotland now has a vibrant centre-right party. But it's a pity that many nationalists won't admit that that's what the SNP is' - I wouldn't know and couldn't care less.

Is this what you base your vote on the people who speak for you on? An imaginary line? If so you are a very stupid little man.

I tend to base my vote on who is going to do the best job for me. Which so far (by far) is SNP.

10 Alfred E. Neuman - Winning respect from "Business" is meaningless, companies do not have a vote! - ???????????????????????????????? Are you this thick man! The people that own them do, the directors do, the parters do, the people that are employed do, the people that can now be employed due to extra cash do.

You usually talk complete guff, but that takes the biscuit.
68

AJ Fife,

02/05/2008 10:34:02
AM2,

A wee slip there pal. You used to claim to be Irish!
69

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 10:34:17
here AM2 you missed a bit from orwells essay. what he actually said about patriotism was

By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular
way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no
wish to force on other people


If you are a patriot then you cannot be both scottish and british because if you are a british patriot then you beleive in britain and not seperate countries of england and scotland so stop being an eejit. AM2 your a UK nationalist i wont call you british because as we all know you being northern irish. northern ireland isnt part of britain
70

John south of Soutra,

02/05/2008 10:34:37
#16 subrosa, the edinburghers didn't vote for the tram line it was foisted on them by labour,libdems and the tories, ask poeple in Edinburgh about this project and you will find that they would rather the money was spent on thngs like the south suburban line etc
71

,

02/05/2008 10:38:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Arfur,

02/05/2008 10:41:29
#94 Jwil - was just going to say that, WHATS GOING ON???????????????

This story, Alexander inept story and a report by Salmond. Could The Scotsman be changing its tune?
73

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 10:41:55
here am2 orwell could have written this bit just for you..........

INSTABILITY. The intensity with which they are held does not prevent
nationalist loyalties from being transferable. To begin with, as I have
pointed out already, they can be and often are fastened up on some
foreign country. One quite commonly finds that great national leaders, or
the founders of nationalist movements, do not even belong to the country
they have glorified
74

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 10:43:06
arfur dont be silly they are just trying to stop people commenting on the terrible election results for brown and labour this story and the others are the honey to attract you.
75

Queen D,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 10:44:35
Did someone mention the Telegraph?
That wondrous home of Allan Cochrane and his ridiculous rants.
I think as a newspaper it is a laughing stock in Scotland.Mind you it is an English paper , so can be forgiven for NOT having its finger on the pulse of Scotland.
The same cannot be said for Scotish newspapers.They should have their finger on the pulse of Scotland , and fail time and again to give balanced views.
As someone in business, I too am pleasantly surprised with the SNP , keep up the good work lads and lasses!
This country needs wealth makers and that is where support for business comes in.
Business EMPLOYS people and pays their wages.
I see that Au Naturale has gone into liquidation.
I am sad about that on two counts, the employees and the products.
Spook, Happy Belated Birthday! I have shoes older than you!
76

Sedov,

Scotland 02/05/2008 10:51:11
This news comes as no surprise to me as I have always maintained that the SNP are a centre right party whose policies will suit the bosses - at least in the short term. The real party of the bosses is the Tories and if business does not get what it wants from the NATS it will drop them like a hot potatoe, just as business and the middle classes in England are now dropping New Labour. It is noticeable that Salmond is not declaring any support or even sympathy for the Grangemouth strikers or any other forms of industrial action going on in Scotland. As the present economic situation bites and forces employers to make more and more cuts in jobs and conditions, strikes will increase ( they are already doing so all over Europe) - This will put Salmond and his cohorts so called left creditionals which he claimed before coming to power under severe scrutiny -what then for the present business support he is enjoying at the moment -or indeed his band of loyal supporters who workship at his alter?
77

S Stewart,

Scotland 02/05/2008 11:07:37
Great news indeed. And I hope to God we get independance before the rest of Britain go Conservative again (see the local elections down there).

I'm not a fan of Salmond, but I'm liking his style so far, and the fact that Scotland is getting it's foot in the door at last. Populist enticement or not, envious eyes are watching us now - where they didn't even notice we existed before.

And hey, just who are these people they poll about independance? They never ask me or my family, or friends or workmates, who ALL bar two, want to be free of the Union.
78

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 11:09:45
#88 AM Squared.

Shot yourself in the foot again, didn't you?

You're from Northern Ireland, but claim to be a Scottish patriot AND a British patriot. As pointed out above Norther Ireland is part of the YUK, so I suppose you could class yourself as a YUK patriot; though given your tendency to keep on bringing out the same garbage, time after time, maybe you should really class yourself as a YUK parrot.
79

Rob,

Moray 02/05/2008 11:15:19
All pretty unsurprising stuff really - but a good excuse for more SNP ranting. Let's face it, after the total incompetence of the previous Labour administration, even a well trained alsation would appear as a huge improvement. Labour are now increasingly being found out on a total UK basis - for once Scotland was ahead of the trend in booting them out.

Mr Salmond won't take anye comfort from the Telegraph poll on Wednesday - that shows that fewer and fewer Scots want to be out of UK. The sooner the referendum happens the better - then we can put the nonsense aside and concentrate on running the country: and just to be fair to the SNP, I, as a Unionist, think they've done a decent job so far.
80

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 11:31:25
AM2 #90

You write: Nationalism is a philosophy at whose heart, to varying degrees, is a them-and-us, “my country and damn the rest” philosophy.

That is certainly not my view. I don't accept that opting for further control over the decision-making process is a 'my country and damn the rest' philosophy. Many people in Scotland wish more powers for the Parliament and the question is simply one of how much power it should have. I want full control over the decision-making process and do not wish to cede control of certain aspects, such as going to war, or having Trident, to Britain. The desire for more political control at a more local level is one shared by Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, the SNP, and parties of the left (such as the SSP). Your portrayal of the desire for independence as a negative thing hinges on your definition of the word 'nationalism', a definition that I feel is wanting.

You are also somewhat disingenuous in quoting Niall Aslen (of Independence First and Siol nan Gaidheal) as if his arguments are the same as the SNP's. They are not. I am sure you are aware that Sion na Gaidheal were banned from the SNP some time ago. There will be varying views of what independence means, just as there are regarding devolution. There is no one unionist perspective (which may or may not be a weakness). Trying to tar everyone with the same brush suggests a poor grasp of the current political situation in Scotland.

Selectively quoting passages from Orwell to try and support your view that all nationalism is bad and therefore all nationalists bad is, frankly, banal. I want to see Scotland have full tax raising powers and its own exchequer. I want an independent Scotland. This does not mean that I am a closet Nazi or a borderline extremist. It simply indicates that I have aspirations for Scotland that you do not share. It may just be the case that Scotland can do more for others if it is independent. Hardly a 'them and us' argument.
81

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 11:33:12
92. "NI is not part of Britain"??

It's not part of the island of Great Britain but there is a reason it's called the plural 'British Isles'.

Honestly.

82

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/05/2008 11:34:44
Stop knocking AM2!

Knock his views if you really must (even tho' most of them rise well above those of his critics), but STOP abusing the person. And if you can't tell the differenece then you really shouldn't be allowed to take part in any adult conversations. Personal abuse is a sure sign of a lost argument.
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 11:41:01
103. The obsession with people's place of origin is rather distasteful and does nothing for discussion.
84

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 11:41:47
Guga

before you really get on your high horse, you might like to look at where most "real" Scots came from, if you check your history, that would be Ireland or the Scandiwegian countries, hence the gaelic language variations of which were spoken in both. So before you carry on your verbal slaying of the "oppressors" look back to your history and discover you are carrying a chip on your shoulder that is thousands of years old and the people you seem to so despise were actually the true people of Scotland
85

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 11:42:21
112. AH, I see. I misunderstood his "stop knbocking AM2" as an instruction to you, AM2, with regard to your constant attempts to suggest Scotland could not run its own affairs better than the UK has done, but I understand now.
86

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 11:46:22
AM2 I have a strong sense of both Irish and Scottish identity.

good god man you dont know wether your coming or going.

one minute your british the next your scottish or british. I can see why your posts are so confused. your having an identity crisis.

encyclopedia britannica
or United Kingdom or Great Britain


Island country, western Europe, North Atlantic Ocean.

It comprises Great Britain (England, Scotland, and Wales) and Northern Ireland. Area: 93,788 sq mi (242,910 sq km). Population (2005 est.): 60,020,000



87

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 11:47:28
see great britain england scotland and wales. northern ireland is part of the UK.

your UKish nto british.
88

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 11:51:25
for those who are saying we are attacking AM2 we are attacking his comment that he is a british patriot. he cant be hes irish and UKish. thats the point.
89

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 11:52:52
117 Methalions

You sound like a friend of Dorothy with your constant snivelling and whining. I wish you would put a sock in it.
90

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 11:55:10
anyways im going bye byeeee.
91

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 11:55:26
121 - Alfred Neuman announces:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B98FGeNyGS0&mode=related&search=sheep%20lambs
92

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 11:57:40
#105 Bob

Not a question of truth Bob. It was your linking the SNP with Hitler.
93

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 12:01:06
124 Connaughtboy

Adolf Hitler was a Nationalist too. Nationalism is very, very dangerous. A country is just a human invention, it does not really exist.

The SNP are nothing more than a cargo cult. They see people in other countries behaving a certain way and want to do the same without understanding why, or how it actually works.
94

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 12:01:06
#73 SeriouslyAmused
#87 Arfur

SNP, like it or not, is now Scotland's centre right party. The collapse of the Tories left a vacuum. The vacuum has been filled by the SNP. It is bankrolled by big businessmen (outspent Labour by 4 to 1 in last year's election), its leaders hobnob with businessmen big and small, it is trying to reduce taxes (beginning with the council tax), its votes come from areas that were once Tory, it is far stronger in the east and north east (ex Tory) than in the west (still mostly Labour). Flag waving and nationalism are the sort of things that Tories do. The SNP does them too. The flags and nation may be different but the idea's the same. Its leader boasts that he once worked for RBS - a highly predatory organisation. As Sedov (#101) points out Salmond's apparent neutrality in the Grangemouth dispute favours the owners not the workers.

One interesting question is whether big businessmen will carry on supporting the SNP if the Tories return to power in Westminster. Big businessmen can be fairweather friends. The English businessmen who threw in their lot with Labour are already jumping ship. Digby Jones, CBI boss, who even took a job as a minister, now says he want campaign for Gordon Brown in the next general election.
95

brownlie,

02/05/2008 12:01:50
110 Rules

Strange that you are asking posters not to abuse AM2 and ignore the most abusive poster - perhaps because he adopts a unionist position. I agree that personal abuse is self destructive and you post that personal abuse is a sure sign of a lost argument.

Consider these snippets;

"George Orwell got it right.... Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty"

"What you think serves your narrow aims"

"Rank hypocrisy"

"Cyber-nat"

Guess who posted them?
96

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 12:02:22
Only this week a leading company in England has announced it's moving to Ireland because of lower business taxes there.

This is why Ireland has had one of the highest industrial growth rates in Europe over the past 20 years......viz they had the freedom to make setting up business in Ireland very attractive to investors.

Could an Independent Scotland do as well as Ireland?

I would think so, don't you?
97

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 12:13:30
#125m

You say: "A country is just a human invention, it does not really exist." Well done for stating the obvious; however, you missed the obvious fact that countries and their political structures are exactly what everyone here is discussing. Presumably, yourself included. If you are so against countries and their political groupings, what are you doing here?

Oh, nice attempt at a Nazi jibe. Shame you constantly choose to descend to gutter politics and damning those you don't agree with as extremists.

98

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 12:15:09
AM2 you chose to paste together quotes from Scottish People and use them to somehow proove your case.

What do you think, exactly,caused this type of reaction from Scots?. Secondly didnt you think that it was wonderful that the Scottish People used the Scottish Governments discussions site without fear or favour. Unlike Westminster and so many English people obsessed by their fellow countrymens loyalty to their country. Exactly how many Scottish Muslims do you know well and have any discussed blowing the shoite out of their homeland, Scotland. Scots are known for their dedication to the principles of the Democratic System. We want Independance from the Contract of Union, but only if the Scottish People support it wholeheartedly. Nobody will bend their arms up their back, or threaten to detain them for 42 days without charging them, up here in Scotland.I thought it was our Scottish Prime Minister Alex Salmond who stopped the practice of bullyboys from immigration breaking down doors in the early morning to terrorise their families. No I am afraid to admit that I fear the direction of the UK Government that is using the exact same tactics that Hitler used on the Jews. I dont like Herr Blair or Herr Brown and the English Media telling us that Muslims are a danger to our public safety. They try to spread fear which makes the people focuss on the poor Muslims rather on the policies that Brown and his Fascist Government keep sneaking through the English Parliament, like the 10p theft, or the Non Lords Debate on the Treaty of Lisbon. Do you support the UK people not being permitted a referendum on the EU even though you have supported membership on quite a few ocassions.
99

Awake,

North Lanarkshire 02/05/2008 12:16:24
So AM2 is from Norn Iron?

That explains the brainwashed bitterness.
100

Boggle fey the Bog,

02/05/2008 12:19:09
108 AM2,Scotland,UK 02/05/2008 11:33:12

Synonymous with what?

If you look at your passport (if you hold a UK passport that is) you will see that it states 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

So legally speaking NI is part of the 'United Kingdom' but NOT part of 'Great Britain'.

Just like the Independent Republic of Ireland (Eire), along with The Kingdom of Scotland,The Kingdom of England, The Principality of Wales, The Province of Northern Ireland and the Independent State of the Isle of Man, they all constitute that which is known geographically as 'The British Isles'.

So NI is NOT part of 'Britain' it is a Province, which along with two Kingdoms and a Principality make up the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and NORTHERN IRELAND.'

101

brownlie,

02/05/2008 12:19:25
125 Alfred

Do you mean the Austrian Adolf Hitler?
102

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:20:56
129. 30 secs of research uncovers this little snippet:

Shire, which is moving its HQ to Ireland for "tax reasons" only paid £1m in UK tax between 2000 and 2006. UBM, another company that recently announced the same move and reasons, only paid £5m in 2006.
103

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:24:13
133. Read this carefully as you have clearly got yourself confused:

NI is not part of GREAT BRITAIN which is the island made up of England, Wales and Scotland.

The BRITISH ISLES covers GB, Ireland, Orkneys, Shetland, IOM, the CI etc.

NI is BRITISH.

Unless the IOM, Orkneys, Shetland and the CIs aren't British either.
104

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 12:29:45
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and will stay that way after a referendum is held in 2010.

I think Salmond will bottle it though, he's kept his Westminster job as a safety net.
105

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:30:30
124. While there are some coincidental similarities between Nationalism in Scotland and in WW2 Germany, the only true Nazi-esque element of the nats is Jackie Priest.

Recent comments from this odious and psychotic ex-pat nat are that Scotland has the "purest race in Europe" and that England is a "gypsy" and "culture-less" race which "is stealing all our money".

(Substitute 'Germany' for 'Scotland' & 'the Jews' for 'England' in the above paragraph and it becomes even clearer!)
106

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:33:13
139. The way the SNP's poll lead is fast disappearing (dropping about 1% a month), Labour will be back in front by 2011 and Salmond's threat to campaign on any blocked referendum will be all-but irrelevant.
107

Arfur,

02/05/2008 12:34:49
126 Publius - as previously stated, i couldn't care less.

As long as the party in charge are looking out for the Scottish people, increasing tourism, increasing business and making good decisions, i am happy.

You on the other hand are one of the stone age idiots that is stupified by one party no matter what. "Grunt,mmma..a.a dadda..ddyy vo...voo.vootted..LLLLLLLaabour, i,i,i vooote...LLLLlaabour, Grunt'
108

brownlie,

02/05/2008 12:36:03
135 Highland

Perhaps you could save us a bit of research if you can identify who, in Government, formulated the UK taxation policy and rules that enables companies to evade tax in this manner?

Are these companies hounded as vigorously as those of us who pay income tax and if not, why not?
109

Arfur,

02/05/2008 12:36:48
#143 Highland Mighty - what colour is the sky on your planet?
110

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 12:37:24
High&Shoitee,

Very good effort putting up the company names.

I wonder how much these same two companies spent on their employees wages. Or how much money did they spend on support services like transport, Printing business,misc office supplies ,factory materials and outside maintanance contractors. Every one of these small business need larger companies as customers, to both increase their trade in the community etc and increase the employment opportunities to even more local Irish Folk. You can bet at the end of the day these companies will generate much wealth and taxes for all the Irish People.

Thats exactly why the Scottish Government will open up our economy, and the Unionists will never do it. They know a wealthy Scotland would make an unhappy Scottish People who kept seeing our Taxes going down south to subsidise English Wealth.
111

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:38:15
142. Another related snippet, Microsoft R&D and major pharamaceutical R&D investments have gone to the Republic of Ireland not Scotland. Why?
112

The Master,

02/05/2008 12:39:11
You Nats may think that this article is positive towards the SNP, but I note that there is a complete lack of backing from the business community for your two flagship policies, namely the independence agenda and LIT. In this respect, Iain McMillan of CBI Scotland seems to have no respect whatsover for the poll tax 2:

“we worry about the local income tax proposal and the message that will send out, that Scotland is the highest-taxed part of the UK. That is not a business-friendly attitude.''

As regards the independence agenda, the silence of the voices from business on this topic about says it all. It’s only too apparent that the “business plan” for this consists of little more than 20 years’ worth of oil and that businesses don’t even consider it worthy of serious consideration. There is Tom Farmer, of course, but he admits that he is a voice in the wilderness and everyone knows that he prefers his own version of “devolution max” to outright independence. Me thinks you Nutty Nats do protest too much!
113

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 12:39:27
#137 Highland Midgie.

"Unless the IOM, Orkneys, Shetland and the CIs aren't British either"

The Shetlands and The Orkneys aren't British, they're Scottish.
114

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 12:39:43
148 Abetter Way

Excellent news, the Scottish Government should help us find employment as stationers and office juniors. Good grief, that is nearly as bad as carrying luggage or mowing the 18th.

I must say is these are the best deals the SNP can offer then forget it.
115

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:41:26
142. Of course there also the little factette that more multinationals set up their European HQs in the UK than anywhere else in the continent.

Oh, and the UK has more companies in the Forbes 2000 list of the world's biggest companies than all but the USA and Japan (and more than France and Germany combined)

And that the World Bank rates the UK the top country in Europe (sixth in the world) to do business.

And the UK has lost the HQs of two small companies is a matter of concern?
116

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 12:42:54
#145 AM Squared.

I see you're at your usual; trying to divert attention away from a topic by bringing up other things.

You are quite abusive at times, then try and blame other people.

Like I said, ,you are a YUK parrot.
117

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 12:43:15
I was watching SKY coverage of the Council Elections and found it very interesting that Labour were loosing seats with up to 19% swing against them. Their polling so called expert reckons they will loose three hundred seats. Sounds good.
118

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:44:16
154. How many major corporate HQ or R&D centre investments has Scotland attracted in the last 5 years?
119

Annoyingboi,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 12:44:40
Well done SNP, I think your first 12 months have been great!

Coming from Edinburgh I agree with the decision not to proceed with EARL. Over-hiked, expensive and poorly planned. We have an excellent bus service to the Airport which is more than sufficient.

I just wish we could have ditched the trams too!
120

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:45:12
151. Master - did you skip over the central finding of the poll - businesses now 40% more in favour of independence than a year ago?
121

Sedov,

Scotland 02/05/2008 12:45:23
The SNP came to power on the backs of an incompetent and useless Labour Party both in Scotland and nationally. Even then, the contest was a close one which demonstrates still the loyalty that many people still have for the Labour Party. So, bad as things are, there is still hope for a LP recovery. but this would mean ditching the pro-Tory policies of New Labour and with the preceived danger of alienating the "middle classes" who according to the spin doctors act in their own rather selfish mannerand vote for the party who are most likely to raise their standards of living. At the present time that appears to be the SNP in Scotland and the Tories in England. But there is no such thing as the middle classes anymore - everyone, including white collar professionals, who work for an employer of even themselves are in reality working class - so lets ditch these fashionable theories and go for a radical socialist programme which will be a clear alternative to the bourgeois nationalist and reactionary Tories. workers will then surely come back to Labour.
122

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:45:33
148. They are only moving their small HQs, not their entire operations.

This is not a crisis.

Anyway, the Tories will be back in soon and then company taxes will really start to drop.
123

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:46:07
157. I don't know. How many?
124

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:50:08
150. Indeed, an odd way of thinking and generalising.
125

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 12:51:04
AM Squared.

I noticed that you were noteable by your absence when your political masters announced the scrapping of the 10p tax rate.

You were also absent during the discussions on the Mouth of the South admitting she had broken the law over her political donations.

You were also absent when the revelations came out about Broon and his ilk making ridiculous claims for expenses for things like food, utility bills, TV licences, taxis for the missus, fake jobs for relatives, make-up and who knows what else.

Did you get your instruction from party HQ not to make any comment, in case you got shot down in flames?
126

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:52:47
163. You keep mentioning UK inward investment. I am asking about inward investment to Scotland. Could you tell me why Scotland over the last 15 years has attracted a minuscule fraction of corporate HQ or R&D centre investment compared to Ireland?

Could you also explain why Scotland's average 30 year GDP growth is a quarter of Ireland's, half of comparable small European countries and behind the UK's?

Surely if the UK is so massively successful in attracting inward investment there must be loads of corporate HQ or R&D investments in Scotland you ca point to as a result of this success?
127

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:54:29
163. Are you stating that Bulgaria has equal infrastructure, training and skilled population to Ireland or the UK to compare the impact of CT rates in isolation between Bulgaria and Ireland or the UK?
128

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 12:55:46
162. HM

you were boasting of the UK's success in attracting inward investment. Yet you don't know anything about inward investment in Scotland?
129

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:56:24
159. Did someone say "poll"?

Support for independence down to just 19% (multi-option) and 25% (two-option). Both %'s the lowest ever.

SNP lead over Labour down from 11% in Nov to just 5% in Apr. A drop of 1% a month.

54% found the existing Holyrood set-up "satisfactory". Only 20% think there should be more tax-raising powers.

"Agent Salmond, continue with mission."
130

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 12:57:38
167. No, I don't have the figures.

Do you?
131

brownlie,

02/05/2008 12:57:53
145 AM2

If you read my posting carefully you will note that I said that I considered that personal abuse was self destructive.

I am not the kind of unionist who automatically and sheep-like believes that everything the unionists do is right and that, conversely, everything anyone else does it wrong.

Indeed, I think that the principle adopted by unionists at present of opposing every single initiative by the Government, irrespective of the country's need, is counter-productive and is being recognised by the public as such.

I think I have the right to criticise any position that I think is wrong but I do not claim that either unionism or nationalism is perfect.

I feel that it is a mistake on your part to identify particular offensive statements made by individuals who obviously support nationalism and post those views as being representative of the nationist movement.

When I pointed to what I consider to be abuse on your part I in no way identified that as being the viewpoint of unionists in general.
132

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:00:39
171. Yes thanks. Good to see that knowing nothing about it does not hamper your commentary though.
133

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:12:48
175. AM2 - I did not ask about R&D contracts, but R&D centres.


None of the investments you mention were corporate HQ or R&D centres - unlike Ireland's record.

I ask again, why is Ireland much more successful than Scotland in attracting such investments?
134

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 13:18:26
174. Well...er...any chance of you telling us then? Don't keep it to yourself!

177. Obviously those R&D contracts are not going to 'R&D Centres' but to somewhere else.
135

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:19:35
179. AM2, your capacity for misrepresentation is undiminished I see. I asked about corporate HQs and R&D centre investment - your answer included none of these. I also asked about GDP growth, which you avoided. I asked why Ireland has been more successful than Scotland in attracting inward investment, you chose to ignore the question. Do you never tire of being constantly off-side?
136

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 02/05/2008 13:21:48
This attempt to selectively choose examples to smear everyone favouring Scottish independence is the usual tactic to divert from the topic.However lets deal with it first.My Finnish wife and her family could be descibed as nationalists since they value the independance of their country.They do not hate anyoune, do not feel superior to others,and they support the fact that their country gives assistance to developing countries.What they believe in ,is what most Europeans believe in and what most Scottish nationalist believe in.I like Tommy Sheridans position where he favours independence for Scotland,but sees himself as an internationalist,rather than a nationalist.That is what 21st century nationalism is about.

Regarding business,of course they are being converted because they see a competent SNP government.Also,they can observe the opportunities and benefits for small independent countries in Europe.The world is changing and solutions fashioned in 1707 need to be adjusted and adapted for what is happening in 2008.The Norwegians who used to share a parliament with Sweden and the Finns who were owned by Sweden have adapted and their current relations whith each other are excellant.Bcottish business coming onside is just another example of this changing world.

Finally,the recent opinion poll did not even include the SNP's choice of independence within the European Union,while retaining the United Kingdom(UK). The UK actually means the Union of the Crowns.Of course the question as asked was loaded. This poll also shows a lot of undecided people and a large percent favouring greater powers.The problem with greater powers is that they are not defined.If we take all of the findings from all of the recent surveys,it is evident that things are in the balance just now,and very fluid just now.This is unsuprising,because change is always likely to cause anxiety and our mediais not unbiasaed, and the public needs information.However, I am encouraged by the general trend
137

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 13:29:03
"Support for independance is up 40%" what figure is this based on? if it was only 1% originally it would now only be 1.4%. If it was 100% originally someone needs some help with their maths. Anyone know the figure.
Guga, when did they get an internet connection on rockhall and is it British, Scottish, Welsh Icelandic, Irish, possibly even a little bit of Brazil, or just yours?
138

brownlie,

02/05/2008 13:31:31
AM2

So the policy would appear to be if you can't beat them join them. Ah well!!

I'm glad you don't deny that the unionists are opposing everything the Government do - it would appear - out of spite and irrespective of the consequences for Scotland.
139

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 13:32:43
#178 AM Squared.

Well you must admit, a couple of these epithets are quite appropriate, like apparatchik (because your posts look, in many cases, like they've been lifted from the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party press releases), and anti-Scottish (with your continually venting your spleen at the SNP, and any Scottish people that think we should be an independent nation).

As for the so called derision about Wendy Alexander, the name Mouth of the South is very appropriate for her, as all she does is repeat the instructions given to her by her political masters in London. She doesn't speak for Scotland or the Scottish people, only for Maggie Broon and her wee brother.

As for your comments about alleged insults to you "going with the territory", what territory is that? It implies that you are doing a job of work for your political masters, either the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, or the Tories (it's hard to tell the difference between them). I personally think you are a Labour stooge (another "insult" to add to your list).

Incidentally, why do you keep all these files on what people say? You do realise that people who keep such files are highly suspect. Are the ones that are continually disagreeing with you also put in a wee black book? Are we all earmarked for re-education?
140

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 13:35:23
#185. All mine. I declared unilateral independence years ago, and I'm ready to repell boarders.
141

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 13:41:38
178
Bet nobody has ever accused you of being thin-skinned though.
142

The Master,

02/05/2008 13:41:54
#159: Ayrshire writes: “151. Master - did you skip over the central finding of the poll - businesses now 40% more in favour of independence than a year ago?”

I wasn’t sure what that meant: does being “more in favour of something” mean that you actually support it? The Scotsman are keen to cover themselves by inserting the qualification that this polling was not carried out professionally, and I can see why.

If you’ve suddenly decided to attach weight to amateur polls, you may be interested to know that I carried one out one of my own in the Station Bar in Glasgow yesterday afternoon amongst a group with fairly reasonably spread ages from 21 to 55 whose income was fairly evenly ranged from under £20K to £50K. I have to come clean and admit that all but two of my sample of 8 disagreed with me that we’re far better off with Labour than the SNP and that Labour have done very little wrong, apart from being in power for many years. However, I found unanimous support for my anti independence stance. About says it all (in an amateur kind of way), doesn’t it, old crocus!
143

Shave,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 13:42:07
#187 Guga II
It is not 'anti-Scottish' to oppose the SNP. Nor is it anti-Rockall to consider you a fool.
144

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:42:31
189. AM2 - so you acknowledge that Scotland has attracted no corporate HQ or R&D centres, while Ireland has attracted many. Why is this if the UK is so succesful in attracting investment? Ireland also attracts massively more investment per head in all areas than Scotland - why?

You say that Ireland's corporation tax rate influences high value added investments - but claim Scotland lowering CT rates would have no impact? Odd.

Your last point is typical spin selecting one quarter out of 120 - Ireland's average growth rate over the last 30 years is 4 times that of Scotland, and other comparable small European countries' GDP growth are double that of Scotland. Why?
145

Miss H,

02/05/2008 13:43:51
178 AM2

Non-nationalists are less ‘Scottish’ than nationalists. That is self-evident. Someone who does not believe their nation the equal of others clearly does not care about their country as much as someone who does.

In case you feel like replying oh but Scotland can be the equal of any other nation without being independent– don’t bother because that is a daft argument and not even worth making.

None of that has anything to do with race.

Bashir Ahmad for example is more Scottish than Wendy Alexander. He may have been born and brought up in Pakistan but he wants Scotland to be an independent self-governing sovereign state and she doesn’t. That makes him more Scottish than she is whether you like that or not. Nigel Don is more Scottish than Annabelle Goldie even though he was born and brought up in England – for the same reason.

People either identify themselves as Scottish or British. They both have an equal right to be whatever they want to be but they are not the same.

It’s to do with whether you think Scotland is a real country or not. You don’t have to have been born in Scotland or brought up here to believe that Scotland should rejoin the community of nations and many Scottish nationalists weren’t.
146

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:44:10
192. Master old bean, can you include a point in your next fascinating missive based on your life and times, as this will facilitate discussion of it. Cheers
147

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 13:50:54
#193. Nor is it anti-Scottish to consider you an amadan.
148

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:54:23
200. Did amadan sing "Stand and Deliver"?

199. good work - were they McVities JCs or own label?
149

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 13:54:43
Ayrshire Scot, do you have those figures on R&D centres and investment? You claim to have them, can we see them?

Don't forget to provide a source so we know you aren't maing it all up.
150

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 13:55:31
jeez will yous stop putting in words i have to go look up.............
151

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 13:55:41
im busy
152

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 13:55:42
203. Zero was the answer.
153

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 13:57:27
#196 Miss H
You write "non-nationalists are less Scottish than nationalists".

That is a very nasty argument. Scots have all kinds of political opinions and we're quick to give them. We're an argumentative folk. But we are all Scottish.


Your argument does you no credit. Nor does it help the nationalist cause.
154

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 13:58:36
196. "Non-nationalists are less ‘Scottish’ than nationalists. That is self-evident."

"Bashir Ahmad for example is more Scottish than Wendy Alexander. He may have been born and brought up in Pakistan but he wants Scotland to be an independent self-governing sovereign state and she doesn’t. That makes him more Scottish than she is whether you like that or not."

Fantastic! Two for the scrap-book.

Are you also 'Jackie Priest'?
155

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 13:59:09
whats disgraceful about it shes saying they identify themselves as more scottish than other scots whits yer problem. you know your problem AM2 you want to force british nationalism onto everyone. i dont want to be british. get it.
156

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 13:59:35
203. Mmm....and your source?

It's just that I remember a certain oil company setting up a research centre a few months ago....
157

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:00:49
#207 Publius.

What would you call a person that is happy to have his country ruled by foreigners? Isn't that just what Vidkun Quilsling did?
158

brownlie,

02/05/2008 14:00:50
199 The Spook

How dare you address Alfred in that manner. He is out on day release so don't expect him to keep up with the Times.

188 Guga

I'm going up to Ness in summer - I hope they won't expect me to dine on one of your relatives.

159

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 14:00:59
Oh god Miss H is out, no wonder I got a whif of bullcrap coming down from around 178.

Ewwwww.

Independence my buttocks.

What are Miss H's views on the EUnion I wonder? Will Scotland be less equal in that when SNP signs us up.

Pathetic.
160

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 14:01:34
you dont seem to understand AM2 that to declare yourelf british and irish and scottish is to say

33 percent of me is scottihs 33 is british and 33 is irish. whereas a commitied nationalist is going to say im 100 percent scottish.

Still if you cant win an argument play the race/nazi card. You do it every time AM2
161

Miss H,

02/05/2008 14:02:25
214 We will be a member so yes we will be the equal of every other member.

162

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 14:03:14
I wonder why Miss H thinks some humans are less human than others on account of their beliefs. That is fascism at its worst.
163

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 14:03:42
216 Miss H

Why can't we be equal in this union then?
164

brownlie,

02/05/2008 14:04:38
208 Highland

Why do you bother with nats when you've already comprehensively proved that independence is a dead duck.

42/90 days without trial for Miss H - do you think?
165

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 14:05:21
#144 Arfur

You're wrong. I voted SNP last year. I had been toying with the idea for a while, but what finally tipped the scale was taking my ma to Largs for a day trip and watching the men from the cooncil cutting the grass. 6 men, 2 vans, a pile of equipment and most of the time none of them was doing anything. That's the Scottish public sector for you. I voted SNP to shake up Scotland and get rid of this sort of waste.
166

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 14:05:21
I think Miss H is living in a bubble where Scotland won't also get voted down in the EUnion.

Fundamentally Miss H believes in unions and does not believe in independence. What a bizarre approach to campaign on independence.
167

Ananurhing,

02/05/2008 14:07:32
160# Sedov

"Still hope for a LP recovery" ??????????????????????!

I don't think so. I remember the joy, optimism and the herald of a new dawn 11 years ago. My first daughter was born hours before Blair swept to power. I got the keys to my third new business on the same day. I employed 25 people at the time.
Over the next few years, such were the increased regulations and burdens on small business,( I paid more in business rates than I paid myself), that I thankfully had the good sense to sell the businesses, and downsize to the point of employing only myself. A rare wise decision on my part.
I reluctantly ended up employing another two people, and very recently launched another wee venture employing one. What swung it for me in deciding to go ahead with new venture was the business rates relief promised over the next three years. It just makes everything all the more do-able.
So, for a working class, self employed gaji such as myself, my mood and prospects with the SNP in power are in stark contrast to that of 8 years ago under NuLab, when the most sensible thing any small businessman could do was become a buy to let landlord.
Hardly sustainable growth really, was it. Pawn shop Britain, with the less well off and needy paying for everything, just to keep a roof over their heads.

Brown's a dead man walking dragging the UK economy and the Labour party with him. Brown and Blair have killed off the Labour party for a long time to come, and Cameron will inherit Brown's poisoned chalice. So yes, I will be voting SNP in my own self interest, and in the interests of that which I define as my country.
168

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:09:52
#212 Brownlie.

They're a barbaric lot these Niseachs.
169

Publius,

London 02/05/2008 14:12:05
#211 GugaII
To liken any presentday Scot with Quisling is very nasty. But such 'guilt by association' is also a very weak sort of argument ... and you are clever enough to know this.
170

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 14:14:15
All animals are Scottish, but some animals are more Scottish than others..........hmmm seem to have seen something similar somewhere...it'll come back to me later.
Karinxxx I'm afraid your in for a big let down, you are and always will be British(well at least for the forseeable future). Until full independance, which even if voted for in 2010, your passport, birth certificate et al would still say British and that would probably take another 5-10 years to sort . Also British nationalism isn't being forced on anyone, from the spread of views on this forum, the main ideals being pushed are Scottish nationalism. But if you insist a view is being forced upon you, just stick your fingers in your ears and shout la la la I'm not listening (I find it helps with most party political broadcasts)
171

The Master,

02/05/2008 14:16:08
#197 Ayrshire: are you or have you ever been some kind of a teacher? I’m a free spirit and do not always feel obliged to make an actual point. What’s wrong with that, pray tell!

#199 Spook: what was your reference on the “devolution flagging” thread to having mislaid a red sock in the vicinity of my Edinburgh flat all about? I’m back there on Sunday and can have a look if you want – anything for an old pal!
172

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:17:43
#227. Since when does a birth certificate say you are "British"?
173

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/05/2008 14:17:46
#194 Ayrshire

Since AM2 refuses to answer your Question about why Ireland attracts Corporate HQ's and R&D Centres while Scotland gets Electronic Sub Assembly Jobs and Call Centres is because of Irish Patent Taxation.

The same thing that allows Microsoft to book 1.2 Billion in Business and only pay 460,000 in tax is because under Irish Patent Rules any royalties received from outside are not Taxed.

Singapore does something similar except they exempt all external revenue from taxes.

So you can see why knowledge based companies are attracted to Ireland, where as Scotland will continue to receive the UK dross.

Since tax policy is made in London for the benefit of the Southeast this will forever remain the case until Scotland is Independant and can set its own policies.

That is why half measures like Federation or Devolution Max will not substantivily change Scotlands competetive disadvantage.
174

Miss H,

02/05/2008 14:19:09
207 I don't agree. There is no point in beating around the bush about this.

Unionists do not believe that Scotland is the equal of other nations. They do not believe that our Parliament and our Government should have the same powers as other nations.

So what does it mean when they call themselves 'Scottish'? What does that description actually mean? It does not mean a nationality because they do not recognise that Scotland is a nation.

So why don’t they just call themselves North British?
175

Alan B,

02/05/2008 14:19:39
Good to see Salmond turing businss opinion towards the snp. The only real problem is without economic powers devolved to the scottish parliament we will never be able to turn round the performance of our economy.

Good to see Brown getting humilated. Once upon at time i thought having a scot as uk prime minister would be good for scotland. But if u have to sell ur country and ur pride to be electable, then that is a price not worth paying.

Browns whole britishness thing, shows that he believes the being scottish is an electoral liability for him down south. If he believes it why should the rest of us follow him like sheep and support the union.
176

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:23:14
#232 Miss H.

"So why don’t they just call themselves North British?"

Strange that you should mention that. That is what Maggie Broon said when he was asked where he was born. He said he was born in North Britain. He subsequently had elocution lessons to get rid of his Scottish accent.

Strangely enough, Vidkun Quisling was a "son of the manse" too.
177

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 14:33:04
Miss H I think most people born north of the border would take it as in insult to be called north british. You don't need to be a raving Nat to be proud to be Scottish and proud of the culture and country. The qualifying phrase is "part of the union" if you feel oppressed by being part of something, good luck as you seem to feel being part of the union is bad, but being part of the EU, a part of europe is good. By the way I think Guga might well be looking for a hand with his spring cleaning on Rockall, as he has declared it independant and not part of anything, you should like it there!
178

The Master,

02/05/2008 14:34:08
#196 Miss H: It’s precisely because I care about Scotland and the prosperity of generations to come that I refuse to gamble its future prosperity on 20 years’ worth of oil. I would argue that I am more Scottish than someone like you, as I only want what’s best for Scotland and, if that means setting aside my Scottish identity (in your book but not in others’) then so be it!

#201 AM2: that’s my answer to Miss H’s deluded rant. I don’t think it merits a more wordy response, as it says more about her warped mindset than anything else.
179

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 14:35:49
#128 Bob

I just think it is highly inappropriate to try to assert a link, with ANY political party in the UK not just the SNP.

I have never called anyone this on these threads, but Bob you are scum.
180

Miss H,

02/05/2008 14:38:23
234

Quite.

There are some really hysterical responses to what I said which to me is self-evident.

Being Scottish does not make you more or less human than anyone else for example.

But you would have to be really really thick not to understand the difference between being Scottish and being Irish, French, Canadian, Swedish, Turkish, American, Japanese, Australian, Dutch or so on.

It's the difference between being a proper country and not being a proper country.

I just wish that unionists would be honest and admit they don't think Scotland is a proper country and therefore should not be independent. Then we would all know where we stand. At the moment we have people rabbiting on about how Scottish they are and the fact that they are happy to be controlled by Westminster doesn't make them any less Scottish than you or I.

What utter nonsense. If you are a unionist you are by definition British so why do they even want to identify themselves as Scots in the first place? If the original architects of the Union had had their way the name Scotland would not even exist any more. It would be a historical oddity. The fact that it does exist, the fact that this debate is even happening is because of people like you and me who throughout the years continued to argue that Scotland is a country not a region and should have the same rights and responsibilities as every other country.
181

Miss H,

02/05/2008 14:41:08
235 Why do you think it is an insult to be called North British? It is what you are. If you support the Union you are British. Get over it. Embrace the union jack - it's who you are!
182

The Master,

02/05/2008 14:41:10
#236 Spook: I’m sure Kimba would love this little offering, but I haven’t seen her around on here for some little time now lol! I shall have a look for it some time by way of an excuse to have a pleasant stroll along the river, but wonder if you might more profitably market such memorabilia on e-bay, you being a big name in certain quarters of Edinburgh!
183

The Master,

02/05/2008 14:43:58
#240 Spook: me again! That SPAR shop at Roseburn is renowned locally for being the most awful in the city: poor range, expensive and too cramped to move! If you think it could be turned into a global success, then you've obviously no a bad idea when you see one, a bit like your nationalism in fact!
184

Alan B,

02/05/2008 14:44:39
#The Master

With scotland having done so poorly economically, both
a) absolutely; less than 2% gpd growth per yr avg over the last 10/20 and 30yr periods
b) and relatively compared to other small european countries who have a higher gdp ppp than not only scotland but the uk as a whole.

What is the economic argument for the union?

I can understand people wanting to be part of the union for other reasons other than economics.

The argument that oh the uk is a big country with a gdp amounting to the 5th largest in the world, has simply not worked out, as it has not allowed us to do well within it.
185

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 14:46:26
AM2, of New Cut Riggs, Edinburgh...

I'm sorry, but I will not be preached to by some pompous, blikered unionist like you. I may be a nationalist, but I do not revel in the misfortune of England, I do not hate English people or wish them ill. I believe in Scottish independence because I consider it to be the best option for Scotland, not because it will leave England broke (clearly it will not)...you may enjoy quoting statistics and post histories to support your somewhat shaky points, but I suggest you try to think out of the box a little; work past numbers and words on a sheet and open your eyes. The union no longer serves Scotland's best interests and it's time to leave...fact...
186

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:48:59
#235.

" I think most people born north of the border would take it as in insult to be called north british"

If you read my post at #234, you'll see that Maggie Broon obviously doesn't think it's an insult. However, his attempt by way of having elocution lessons to get rid of his Scottish accent is an insult to the people of Scotland.

You do realise as well, that, at one point in time, they tried to eliminate the whole concept of Scotland as a country, and tried referring to it as "North Britain", and everything in it as "North British".

Incidentally, there are many of us who think we should get out of the EU as well as out of the Union. Both organisations are totally corrupt.

187

Miss H,

02/05/2008 14:50:26
237 What you mean Master is that you are not prepared to gamble Scotland’s future prosperity on the Scottish people.

Why can’t you just be honest about that?

Without Westminster governing us you think we would fall apart. And considering what a bunch of clowns we have in Westminster your opinion of Scots must be really really low if you think we would make a worse job of governing ourselves than they would.
188

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 14:51:22
#140 HM

The odious Bob10 was referring to the current SNP Government, not just posters on here. Given your comment, are you willing to condemn him?
189

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:54:16
#245 Daibhidh.

I notice you say that AM Squared is from New Cut Riggs in Edinburgh. That is interesting as he used to always tell us he lived in Glasgow. So, we were probably right when we used to accuse him of working for the Hootsmon, hence his access to files on everyone who posted any comments, and his ability to have comments posted before the Hootsmon came on line.
190

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 14:55:19
Has anyone visited the SNP shop at SNP.org?

They sell Saltire flags that have "made in Vietnam" labels sown into them.

How Scottish is that?
191

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 14:58:13
#151 mast

I think your statement is rather too sweeping. To conflate "the business community"with "the CBI" is wrong. What you seem to be arguing is that because the head of the CBI does not agree with LIT and independence, that means:

"there is a complete lack of backing from the business community for your two flagship policies"

I can tell you right now that I am part of the "business community" and I support both LIT and independence. That makes your statement incorrect.
192

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 14:58:38
Miss H

Why are you bringing the Americans into this, they have exactly the same system as here, individual states, admittedly more power regarding local taxes, but controlled centrally by an elected government. But proud to call themselves Americans and also proud of the state they belong to. See it does work
193

getinnnn,

Scotland 02/05/2008 14:59:47
I will be putting a bigger blacker X on My voting paper for the SNP next time....unless, maybe, a new Party comes along that wants Us out of the European Union too: That would be very tempting to vote for but the U.K is the quagmire Scotland are stuck in just now. The U.K is worse because it totally takes away the Scottish Identity: Just try to find "Scotland" in drop down lists any time You need to put Your Country's name in for anything online: It ain't there! Some American presenters mention Scottish Cities and quite innocently say they are in England or the U.K: That is the deplorable situation that exists. It's time Scots stopped being ashamed to be called Scottish and of being too scared of failure when We try to rule Our Own Country: When We don't rule Ourselves, to Me, that IS failure.
194

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 14:59:54
#251. You can get pictures on plates of the parasites at Buck House, also made in Vietnam. How "British" is that. You can even get Butcher's Aprons made in Vietnam, Taiwan and China.
195

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 02/05/2008 15:03:05
I would never take a single poll as evidence of what the future would look like.However,the cumulative evidence from all recent surveys of public opinion,including this one point to a growing confidence about Scotland's future role as an independent nation.The nitpicking around certain issues is a distraction.I take the view that all people in Scotland are patriotic and that all citizens views,irrespective of where they cam from,should be valued.Nor should we be side-tracked by accusations of left wing,or rightgt wing bias.The important thing is that our government makes progress in the areas that make a positive difference to peoples'quality of life.I think that the SNP government isdoing that.That is why the hysterical innuendo of their political opponents is largly falling on deaf ears.

My past experience of the SNP tells me that their members are recruited from all sections of society and represent all types of professions and jobs.People who try to smear nationalits on these sites need to rember that the person who drives your bus,fixes your car,serves you in shops,cares for your sick children,looks after the socially deprived,teaches your children etc etc are likely to support Scottish independence.Busines is just one section of society and no more important than the forklift truck driver. However,the growing support among business people for independence is a glimpse of a future that our children will inherit.I predict that our children and grandchildren will value independence,like all young people in the small,independent European nations.I hope that my children and grandchildren are also internationalists and learn to value cultural diversity.
196

Independence for,

Scotland 02/05/2008 15:05:07
All this great back patting for The Scotsman as it has run a pro SNP article, but cast your eyes on the Editorial, as there is always a "BUT". Business loves the SNP, BUT, (and here comes the bogieman with his scarestory) the SNP plans for local income tax could divert inward investment to England!
Oh give it a rest. We've had all the doom and gloom merchants giving us the world will end were we to have devloution, were we to elect an SNP government.
The reality is here! We have and it hasn't. The sun still rises every morning (well it comes daylight) and darkness befalls us each night.
If local income tax will be such a hell, why don't we scrap income tax all together and demand from only the house not the inhabitants monies to run this country? Yes it would be a bloody stupid idea, wouldn't it? All taxation should be performed on the basis of ability to pay, and the only way to judge one's ability is by a percentage of their earnings.
Widow Twanky with little savings living off the state pension lives in the family home worth £350,000. She is council taxed to death.
Joe Smith and his wife both work, they earn combined £60,000 p.a. Their son and daughter still live at home, both of whom work and together earn £35,000. They live next door to Widow Twanky. Who in their right mind believes that Widow Twanky should pay in tax the same as the four earners next door with a combinded income of £95,000 p.a?
197

The Master,

02/05/2008 15:08:51
#244 Alan B: Scotland’s economy is so integrated to the rest of the UK that independence is just about the most foolhardy policy imaginable, from an economic point of view. Comparisons with European countries such as Denmark are entirely spurious because they do not operate in this context.
198

Mikey,

02/05/2008 15:12:46
I've always thought that folk like Bob10, who break Godwins Law frequently, only do so to hide their own Nazi sympathies. They then deny it and accuse everyone elsae of being a Nazi. They do this to try and deflect attention from themselves, but are usually so thick (you listening Bob?) that they completely defeat the object of the exercise!

Political debate requires a modicum of sense. You always know in politics that you'll win some and lose some, but the unionistas on here (with some exceptions) seem to think that a debate means abusing the opposition.

The main two unionist rules seem to be,
a) if you can't win the arguement, abuse the opposition and

b) refuse to believe anything that isn't told you by someone from Whitehall.

The fact that this is self defeating does not occur to these people as they find it very hard to think about anything political without checking with London central.

The next election will see the progressive Scots taking on the reactionary unionist rump. Like all reactionaries, they will be defeated and perhaps will even leave the country with their tails between their legs.
199

,

02/05/2008 15:14:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
200

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 15:15:58
#226 David Cairns and Des Browne come pretty close though....
201

Alfred E. Neuman,

02/05/2008 15:18:05
260 Mikey

Shut up you nazi-sympathising fool, you do not come from whitehall, so what gives you the right?
202

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 15:18:20
#230 and he seems also to think that you can change a birth certificate. Sheeez
203

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:18:34
# Independence For

Working on the same principal, why should 4 people be forced to stay in a £350,000 pound house, an equity share of only £87,000 each and have to pay so much more, surely it would be better to get widow twanky to move into an £87,000 house and only pay a quarter of the council tax? Any thing else just wouldn't be fair....would it?
204

Queen D,

Glasgow 02/05/2008 15:19:04
Connaughtboy, I'm with you!
Collecting taxes and snooping on people for Westminster, has added to business woes in the paperwork department.
Like the sound of LIT and like what the SNP is trying to do for business.
205

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:21:45
#The Master

So what ur saying is were doommed effectively. 10yrs of labour and 17yrs of tory government (no need to go back to labour in the 70s) have left us with a crap economic legacy, and u think we can do nothing about.

Somehow u think that because we have been in the union for such a long time, underperforming that we cannot do better outside.

If we had been doing well inside the union i could understand ur point. But we have not.

My frustration having studied abit of economics in the late 80s was at the time there was this prevailing view that we needed to be attached to a larger neighbour and somehow that would be better for us. That has turned out to be false. Few credible economists nowadays would disagree, looking at the performance of small north european countries and comparing them to the large ones.

The problem with ur argument is that somehow u think that we cannot do aswell as these other small european countries.

To argue that we need the union economically is simply ridiculous. Most serious unionist conscede that economically we would do ok outside the union.
206

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 15:22:02
#235 odd one

The difference between a unionist and a nationalist is moe to do with the fact that a unionist will frequently talk Scotland down whereas a nationalist will do the opposite.

I sometimes get the feeling that unionists would rather see Scotland fail. Brown even seems willing to help the downfall.
207

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 15:22:20
#261 The Serf.

It is not black propaganda, it is fact. Do your own research and you'll find it out for yourself. You are bound to have noticed that he does not even pronounce the letter "r" any more. He is, of course, trying to brown-nose his way in with the English voters, but they are not as stupid as to fall for that garbage.

I have lived and worked in many countries over the years, including England and Australia, as well as many non English speaking countries. I still have a Scottish accent. Then again, I do not tell people I was born in North Britain, nor did I have elocution lessons to try and change my accent.

Maybe you're one of these people that goes to America for a two week holiday and comes back with an American accent.
208

,

02/05/2008 15:24:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
209

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:27:52
#The Master

Do you accept that devolving economic powers to the scottish parliament would help address scotland economic problems. For instance fiscal autonomy within the union would be a good start to allow the scottish government to create conditions for economic growth?

As the leaders of labour, lib dem and snp in scotland all agree that the euro would be good for scotlands economy. If we were to have an economically driven study to assess scottish membership of the euro. And it found that on balance it would be beneficial. What would be ur position? Refuse to join because it may put the union in jepordy or get scotland to join? (i realise this is hypothetical)
210

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 15:28:25
#270 The Serf.

Are you genuinely Scottish, or just pretending to be?
211

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:31:20
#268 connaughtboy

"The difference between a unionist and a nationalist is moe to do with the fact that a unionist will frequently talk Scotland down whereas a nationalist will do the opposite."

I would say it is more - both think scotland is not doing partlicularly well but a nationalist thinks scotland can do better, a unionist has given up.
212

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 15:31:47
268. What a load of cr@p.

The nats are always calling Scotland and the Scots a "British colony" with a trashed economy, subservient to the last and scared to go it alone.

How is that NOT talking Scotland down?
213

,

02/05/2008 15:33:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
214

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 15:33:49
274. More utter rollocks from the nats.

Feel free to direct us all to any of my posts that have said that.

Ayrshire Scot, still waiting for your source that says that there has been "zero R&D investment in Scotland".
215

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:36:49
#268 Conno

If you really want to have a read up on something, have a look at Carol Craig's book Scotland, a crisis of confidence. Then come back and make that comment again. I doubt that you will bother with the reading, or if you do, denounce it as unionist propaganda
216

Independence for,

02/05/2008 15:38:00
265 oddoneout

So Widow Twanky has to sell up her family home in which she has lived for decades, in order to reduce her council tax burden. In so doing she will then be hit with a nice bill from the Tax Man on profits from her £350,000 home not reinvested in her new property. She's shafted if she does and shafted if she doesn't. while the four top earners next door pay the same amount as a single widow.
Believe me, no one is forced to live in a £350,000 house!
217

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:38:24
sorry #273
218

John PM,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 15:39:31
The only person the Scotsman could find to attack the SNP was a Confederation for British Industry guy (they don't like independence eh what a shock!) who has already taken Labour's shilling and joined their committee to decide the bare minimum of crumbs which they can throw us, yep he's unbiased, or maybe not.

Maybe there should be a Confederation for SCOTTISH industry which would be more representative of actual Scottish business opinion. I fail to see what Iain McMillan brings to the table.
219

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:39:47
#270 The Master

"I know many (including my own mother!) who have said that they would go so far as to move to England if Scotland ever became independent. I’m not sure if I’d go that far myself, but it is a distinct possibility."

Two things:

One i think u are too influenced by ur mother. Get out the house more. It is better to have a mind of ur own.

Why would any scot want to move england if scotland became independent? I can understand living in england for other reasons. Done it myself for a while. But that attitude tends to suggest a lack of pride in scotland or a wannabe english. (almost like the celtic irish wannabes or rangers support the union because of the association with anti catholism)

That is part of the problem with unionism. It is not about a union that is good for scotland. A union at any cost.
220

John PM,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 15:45:07
"The nats are always calling Scotland and the Scots a "British colony" with a trashed economy, subservient to the last and scared to go it alone."

Some certainly are, looked in the mirror lately? But most Scots are a bit savvier. We played a part in the Empire undoubtedly but it's over now. What matters is right now. Would Scotland benefit from independent representation in the EU and UN?

Does the UK represent Scotland's views at the moment?

Would the UK welcome becoming a state of the US? If not, why not?

If people value the UK's independence, why do they say Scotland should never have ours?

It's not logical and that is why British unionism is losing all the arguments, that's when they attempt to have any.
221

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:47:43
Well by the time widow twanky gets on a bit, she's gonna have to sell up to get herself into a nursing home and will be lucky if her heirs get £2.50 and a brass washer as their inheritance. Also I ought to point out that if the plot sizes are the same, she is currently taking up four times more land than the individuals next door, so should actually be paying four times as much tax. The Greens might actually get that bit in as well.
The way it looks is that it is OK to make money elsewhere and then come to Scotland and pay nothing for the local services, but woe betide, if you want to work hard and make a decent living here for the betterment of scotland. How does that make you proud to be a Scot. If you're doing well...we'll hammer it out of you as soon as possible
222

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:48:33
#Highland Mighty

"The nats are always calling Scotland ...with a trashed economy

How is that NOT talking Scotland down?"

The simple difference is we all know scotland has underperformed economically. That is not really indispute. Labour were for ever telling us how scotland was run down under the tories. And under labour in a decent world economic climate they have been unable to alter scotlands low ecomomic growth rate in any meaningful way.

The issue is unionist as u can see for "Master's" posts think we can do no better. Nats believe that we can do aswell as any of the other small european countries.


At the end of the day i think the post above by Master which says that he would rather stay remain in the union even if scotland were better of economically outside it is actually more honest. It is those that say scotland cannot expect to do aswell as these other countries.
223

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 15:50:03
283. You're a little liar, aren't you! Or are you just incredibly stupid (which your spelling difficulties strongly suggests)?

I have never posted such stats or mentioned such matters.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Both you and Ayrshire Scot have been caught posting lies to further your 'argument' today. Very naughty!
224

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:50:07
#284

with the way things are going, what makes you think the UK is not already a state of the US
225

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 15:50:29
#276 mast

I am not only a businessman but I am also a business owner. I am perfectly happy with the SNP's blueprint for independence (rather than separation).

Sir Tom Hunter is on record as saying he would like there to be a referendum on independence. He also said that he is not yet sure which way he would vote. Clearly he sees nothing alarming in the SNP's blueprint yet you do.
226

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 15:54:03
284. Why do nats persist in using the 'UK not being part of the USA' as an argument?

How about the 'UK is part of the EU'?
227

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 15:56:00
211. Guga - use of terms like "Quisling" is just as silly and distasteful as the similar Nazi references thrown around on these threads. People should be able to disagree on the best constitutional future of Scotland without silly mince like that.

227. Master - no have never been a teacher, although have given the odd lecture, and indeed I have noted the lack of a point in many of your posts. Now that you have explained that this is because you are some kind of superannuated hippie (and property tycoon) I understand and will mention it no more.
228

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2008 15:56:07
#282 Alan B

I tend to think that the typical nationalist is more widely travelled than his unionist counterpart and is therefore better equipped to visualise Scotland in its true context, therefore I agree with your comment to Mistress about getting out more.
229

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 15:56:42
290. I saw Cabdury's Jaffa cakes on special offer (100% extra free) but I wasn't fooled.
230

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 15:57:04
The UK is also not a part of UAE...why not?
231

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:57:04
Highland Mighty

The uk is an independent state a member of the EU. So there is a big difference to scotland who has given up that sovereignty. A confederal uk (similar to the eu ) would be a stronger argument for the uk.
232

Alan B,

02/05/2008 15:58:52
#293 connaughtboy

Quality argument for mistress for the union. His mother told him.
233

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 15:58:55
277. HM - please see the list of inward investment projects supplied by AM2 above - zero corporate headquaters or R&D centre investments. I did not say zero R&D investment - I said zero R&D centres or HQs, comparing Ireland's strong record in attracting such with Scotland's failure to attract such.
234

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:01:58
I have reconsidered. Brown might actually be correct that independence will break family ties. Masters mother is going to go south if the uk breaks up. He will be lonely by himself.
235

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:04:32
301. There is no significant relationship between Highland Mighty and intelligence.

(Ayrshire 2008)
236

The Master,

02/05/2008 16:06:38
#282 Alan B: I wouldn’t disagree with much of your post: I am the mirror opposite of a Nat and proud and proud of the fact! I do, however, have a degree of pride in Scotland and would not describe myself as “wannabe English”. It’s just that, like the vast majority, I express my Scottishness through being part of Britain and find any alternative to that unthinkable. You Nats are just going to have to accept this attitude: your value system is not that of the vast majority.
237

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 16:06:54
294 Ayrshire-we cant get Jaffa cakes here.
One of the penalties of living in Africa :(
238

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 16:07:16
Can I add there is no significant relationship between posting on here and intelligence



I can't.....bother bother bother!
239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:08:01
305. If I may say you and Highland M demonstrate the "any alternative to that unthinkable" very well with the degree of thinking you put into your arguments.
240

Ananurhing,

02/05/2008 16:09:10
265# Oddoneout.

Chances are that Mr and Mrs Twanky worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes, and earned enough to buy their £ 350k house. Is it fair that Mrs Twanky in her old age, living on her pension, faces a double tax whammy on assets she acquired whilst economically active, that have already been taxed? Is it fair that she now has a tax burden that bears no relation to her income?
And your later comment on her being taxed on the size of the bit of planet she occupies is a bit odious.
How do you feel about the massive subsidies paid to the small handful of people, who own most of Scotland, many of whom pay no taxes at all?
241

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:10:11
306. Geoff, sorry to hear that! Do you want us to post you some out? BTW - Cadbury's Jaffa cakes are not the real deal however (no matetr that their packaging is cunningly designed to imitate McVs), everyone knows that McVities are the only true JC.

242

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 16:17:40
Ayrshire Scot, where's your source? You have clearly made it all up, haven't you?

Exxon opened up a major R&D centre just last year.

Seriously, if you cannot argue your case without resorting to lies, that just highlights how weak your case is.

Almost as weak as support for independence, in fact.

RBS, along with most of our financial sector, is owned by the major London institutions and the UK in general is one of the world's major shareholders (3rd in the world, in fact).

Get used to it.
243

Miss H,

02/05/2008 16:18:04
253

Yes they are proud to be Americans and no more so than on Independence Day. Americans have no problem calling themselves Americans.

Unlike your stated belief that most people born north of the border would take it as in insult to be called North British.

Why would that be? I can understand a Liverpudlian being annoyed at being called a Mancunian or a Yorkshire person being annoyed at being called Cornish. But none of them would object to being called British in any context.

In the same way a Texan might not be keen on being called a Californian or vice versa. But they are both Americans and are usually proud to be.

So what could possibly be offensive about calling a Scot a North Briton?

If you believe in the Union that is what you are – a British person living in Britain.

So what’s your problem with being North British? As a unionist should be proud to be British not insulted.
244

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:22:59
312. Highland Mighty - do stop being so silly. My case is that Ireland has attracted far more inward investment than Scotland, and far far far more corporate HQ/ R&D centre investment than Scotland. Do you deny that? And as why do you think this is?
245

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:24:43
312. HM, as to the ownership of RBS - so what? I think you will find that traded SE listed companies tend to be owned by shareholders all over the world these days. What is your point ?
246

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:25:44
#Ayrshire Scot

Highlands problem is he has been unable to put forward a coherent economic for the union.

His political support of the union outways the economic negatives. He feels a poor scotland is a price worth paying for the union.
247

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 16:26:20
316. So you are finally admitting you made it all up when you said there had been "zero R&D centres/investment in Scotland".

You're pathetic.
248

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:26:49
sorry "outways" / "out-weighs"
249

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:27:42
318. Clearly. Perhaps HM will explain why Scotland's 30 year GDP growth rate is a quarter of Ireland's, and half of other small European countries? The best AM2 could come up with was to point to the last quater Ireland's growth in 2007 as some kind of negation of the last 30 years of economic underperformance by Scotland in the Union.
250

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 16:27:58
320. Try 'outweighs'
251

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:29:48
#322 i should maybe proof read what i post. :)
252

Highland Mighty,

02/05/2008 16:30:02
321. Scotland has exactly the same economic, employment and trade policies that has made the UK one of the strongest economies in Europe and the world.

So maybe it's not 'political management' that's the problem....?
253

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:33:34
319. Highland, do calm down and stop being so silly.

Ireland has massively outperformed in FDI vs Scotland over the last 20 years, attracting dozens of high value, high tech HQ and R&D centres. Scotland has attracted one (according to you, but I am happy to amend and correct my "zero" HQ/ R&D centre FDIs for Scotland based on the 2007 list to "one" while I check the DTI list).

Can you venture an opinion on why Ireland has been far more successful than Scotland or per head, than the UK?
254

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:35:45
324. Sadly, UK macro-economic policy has not been well suited to Scottish economic needs. One example would be the high interest rates policy of the 90s, adopted to calm an inflationary credit boom. As Scotland never had an inflationary credit boom, this damaged Scottish industry. Would you agree that in this instance UK economic policy held Scotland back?
255

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:37:02
#Ayrshire Scot

AM2 is willing ireland to have an economic downturn so that it cannot be thrown in his face. He knows the economic arguments are not on his side. As we all know economies grow faster some yrs and slower others. It is the average over a period of time that matters. And also the gdp per head (ppp).

In the summer AM2 argued that if scotland had control of corportation tax and lowered it to ireland levels we could match irelands growth rate, without leaving the union. Actually quite a good argument.

However as
1) it contradicted his the uk is good for scotland becuase of the barnett formula
2)might be impossible under eu law unless we are independent.
3)it was inconceivable that it would not lead to more taxes being devolved.
4)labour backing away from wendies fiscal federalism

He changed his mind. Claiming that he had reconsidered why irelands performance had been so much better than scotlands and decided it was nothing to do with corportation tax.
256

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 16:37:45
#309

Odious?, you'll find that in order to get the Green's buy in, there might well be a proportion of it in LIT, but if you insist on calling the SNP's flagship policy Odious, who am I to stop you.......just the facts maam. So just to add insult to injury, over several decades, widow twanky has been underpaying the council tax and not putting in her fair share according to yourself. She should suddenly become exempt from paying for her past misdemeanors?


Subsidies?? ah your back on about the EU again....possibly

but even under LIT they will still get away with paying bogger all, they will just get their accountant to sort it out. For those people the land tax would actually cut them down to size...far from being odious
257

brownlie,

02/05/2008 16:38:37
300 Bob

What point exactly were you trying to make with your stand alone statements?
258

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:41:02
330. I think Bob was trying to clearly establish himself as a vacuous, smearing and largely pointless wee Greyfriar's. In that regard he has succeeded.
259

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 16:44:42
Miss H

So as part of the Union, you would love to be called British, If you called a lot of Americans, North Americans they would be most insulted (racist, Indian thing) also they wouldn't take very kindly to being called a south west, just at the bottom American,come on Miss H lets hear you say it "I'm from Scotland and proud to be British" or just pack your argument up in a bag and go home again (North Britain I believe)
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:45:43
333. Indeed - Bob is a Grefriars Bobby and DOuglas Hurd.
261

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:46:24
335. Boris is winning apparently.
262

Alan B,

02/05/2008 16:50:02
#324 Highland Mighty

"So maybe it's not 'political management' that's the problem....?"

Or maybe it is just that the political management has been favouring the south of england. When i was in london for a while it was commonly discussed that the uk governments economic policy was to promote a successful london. The evening standard would argue why this was a good policy. Even today i was in the bbc web pages and there were posts about the london mayor saying the same thing - a successful london means a successful uk.

Political management that actually addresses scotlands economic problems and where we can vote out what ever government fails would be a start.

We tend to have economic medicine for the south of england not for scotland and the north of england.

Look at some examples
1)interest rates for sterling over the last 30yrs have been to high for the scottish economy. The governor of the bank of england even said (honestly) that unemployment in the north of britain was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.
2)mirus was a disaster for scotland. making pt 1 above much worse.
3)during the 90s a answer from the tory treasury at the time about about who had subsidise who regarding scotland. responded that scotland had subsidised the rest of the uk to the tune of £27billion (early/mid) 90s prices) over a period of time. If say 20billion of that was for a 10yr period that is equal to 2billion a yr. That amounted to 10p in the pound of all scottish income tax going out of scotland. Consider today income tax is 20% half of that was going to the rest of the uk.

Also consider much of that was while we were in server economic difficulties in the 80s.
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:50:29
328. Indeed - AM2 took some perverse delight in a slower year of growth for Iceland and one quarter of low growth in Ireland, as if this negates the average growth difference over 30 years between Scotland and other small countries.
264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 16:51:18
341. LOL. What is the difference then between keech and keek? Is keech an Ayrshire-ism?
265

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 16:56:48
probably the same difference between leech and leak...gotta be able to get that one into a political context
266

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:00:03
95 Meths-ta for the tip. We get the highlights and sure we will see the final. Penalty shoot outs not a nice way to decide a game but a wins a win!
As to the topic at hand,well you guys have pretty much covered it..
267

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:00:07
95 Meths-ta for the tip. We get the highlights and sure we will see the final. Penalty shoot outs not a nice way to decide a game but a wins a win!
As to the topic at hand,well you guys have pretty much covered it..
268

Miss H,

02/05/2008 17:02:44
337 I don't want to be part of the Union. I want to be a citizen of an independent Scotland. I want a passport that says Scottish not British.

I am perplexed however at people who are unionists but also object to being called British.

That doesn't make any sense. Supporting the Union is all about being British. So why not celebrate it instead of cringing about it?

269

brownlie,

02/05/2008 17:09:41
335 Spook

I'm trying to work out if the 10 next to the bob at 300 is his age or his IQ.
270

Alan B,

02/05/2008 17:09:43
Miss H

"Supporting the Union is all about being British"

Not really. To some, possibly more those from the west coast anti catholic brigade.

Some unionists are actually quite anti english.

Support for the union is more due to fear for the economy, or because that is what the media tells them. To many britishness has little to do with support for the union.
271

oddoneout,

02/05/2008 17:13:43
Miss H

Now we've got to the heart of it! Explain specifically which bit you want to be part of, and those that you don't, there's a whole list

UK is obviously an non-starter, so how about the EU? NATO? the UN? Europe...erm can you opt out of Europe?
272

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:15:00
315 Meths-like true sons of king william!
310-Ayrshire-post me some Jaffas and I'll send u some biltong!
313 Spook-och what would you do without him? Next time he is in durbs were gonna have a few dops-will send u a photo!
273

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 17:18:48
355. Geoff, before i commit to posting the Jaffas (McVities's mind) what is biltong?
274

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:24:24
351 meths-yes an ironic twist. often wonder how managers and players in professional football manage to change alleigances so readily when compared to us mere mortals. Now if we could buy Alex S...
275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 17:26:51
358. Jeez, that don't sound like a fair exchange for some Jaffas?
276

,

02/05/2008 17:28:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
277

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:28:41
356 Ayrshire-biltong-local delicacy-dried slightly salted meat.Available in beef or game. Lovely with cold beer!
278

Ananurhing,

02/05/2008 17:29:11
329# Oddoneout

SNP'S flagship policy?
Underpaid council tax?
EU?
Maam?
Ach never mind!
279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 17:33:43
360. jeez, as if a bit of salty beef would pass my lips.
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 17:36:49
364. What? I eat healthy, is all I was saying, dude.

365, Erm, depends how sweaty they are I suppose.
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 17:37:07
365, Now stop it.
282

Geoff,

sa 02/05/2008 17:38:01
364 Ahem indeed!
283

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 17:38:14
Aye, well AM2 may claim to be from Glasgow, but I'm pretty darn sure he's actually our good friend Alexander MacKay from the letters page...
284

Miss H,

02/05/2008 17:45:22
354 Yes I am quite happy to be in the EU. Also the UN and other multi-national institutions. To join the community of nations as I said before.

But you have to be a nation before you can be a part of a multi-national body like the EU or the UN.

Scotland isn't.

We are represented in those bodies by UK ministers who put UK priorities first. Ask any fisherman.

So what is your point?

285

Miss H,

02/05/2008 17:46:49
353 That's actually fear of independence.

People who support the Union are by definition pro-British because that is the whole point of it.
286

,

02/05/2008 17:47:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
287

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 18:02:22
373. :-)
288

Dunnie,

Canada 02/05/2008 18:26:07


Ta Da!

372! Meths - I think it's Heather Mills.
289

Guga II,

Rockall 02/05/2008 18:27:00
#369 Daibhidh.

Duly noted. I'll put that in my AM Squared files!!!!
290

The Master,

02/05/2008 18:29:09
AM2's named after a computer component: read into that what you will! I know you Nats love a conspiracy theory (and please don't take this as an invitation to start bleating on about that McCrone thingy: it's like soomeone grinding their nails down a blackboard to the rest of us!)
291

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 18:33:57
373
Del
Saucy :-)

376
Welcome back Dunnie
292

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 18:47:08
376. Hoos Poos Dunnie!

378. You are named after a down-market S-&M club in Antwerp. People will justifiably read into that quite alot.
293

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 18:51:09
380
Yes, he baits people a lot Ayrshire.

But usually gets a leathering in the end.
294

The Master,

02/05/2008 18:53:48
Jeepers Creepers! You’re right, Ayrshire! Well, you learn something new every day! I really must abandon this moniker for a while if it has such seedy associations! Any suggestions for a less controversial alternative?
295

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 18:55:15
382. Try "The Slave" - the name of a down-market S-&M club in Brussels?
296

The Master,

02/05/2008 19:01:26
Once thing that we have in common is that we’re slave to our entrenched belief systems, Ayrshire. I’m happy to admit it, but are you?
297

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 19:06:15
386. Master, you are an ageing, manky alcoholic with bad skin and a droopy bum who drinks in skank-y bars (ref. Station Bar above) in Glasgow, and lacks original thought. I am not. You adopt monikers based on the filthy, sticky-floored, kinky sex clubs of Belgium (with minimal entry charge) that you frequent. I do not. There our similarities failed to begin.

Cheers x
298

The Master,

02/05/2008 19:10:13
#387 Ayrshire: I love you too!
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 19:11:29
388.xx hehehe :-)

When is your party? Is Kimba coming?
300

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 19:13:57
A sex club with minimal entry can't be much fun.
301

,

02/05/2008 19:19:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

,

02/05/2008 19:20:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 19:22:31
391. LOL. Indeed, except for the animal cruelty and risk of Albanians losing arms aspect, I agree.

392. It won't allow skank-y either. Clearly someone has had droop probs with a skank-.
304

Ananurhing,

02/05/2008 19:28:30
382# The Master

I liked your old relatively normal cross dresser moniker. Auntie something, wasn't it?
305

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 19:32:55
Everbody stop picking on the "master".

He likes it too much.
306

,

02/05/2008 19:56:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
307

Black Beard,

02/05/2008 20:34:29
That's it, I'm moving to Luxembourg. Thank you AM2, I've been waiting for just such a statistic...
308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 20:43:35
397. AM2

oh dear, you never dissapoint. Are you saying that the 3 year period you have chosen out of the last 30 years (not even the last 3 years we note, just your preferred slice) is more representative than the entire last 30 years?

The cost to Scotland of the last 30 year GDP (ppp/ph) gap is greater, by multiples, than the entire Scottish government budget. And you offer a selected 3 year period out of 30 years that you have cherry picked as being indactive? For shame.

Can you explain why Scotland has averaged 1.8% GDP (ppp/ph) growth over the last 30 years while Ireland has had 7.2% and other small EU countries (with no oil, gas or other advantages) have have had double that growth?

309

Miss H,

02/05/2008 20:43:41
AM2 still does not get the very basic point that independence is not about Scotland doing exactly the same as Ireland or Finland or Norway or Sweden or Denmark or Iceland or indeed Luxembourg .

It is about Scotland having the same decision making powers and the same freedom to tailor policy to suit our specific needs and aspirations that they so.

Independent countries have those powers and that freedom. Scotland doesn’t.
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 20:47:04
397. And I can only marvel at you putting PER CAPITA GDP GROWTH (PPP) in capital letters ("If you dig deeper, and refer to PER CAPITA GDP(PPP) GROWTH "

because as you know I was quoting PER CAPITA GDP (PPP) GROWTH figures over the last 30 years.

Perhaps you will explain why you think the period 2001-2004 better reflects the state of the Scottish economy than the 30 years preceding, and up to, now, which are the actual reality of where we are now?
311

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 20:52:40
397. Your selection of figurs for only 2001-2004 reflects your obsessive, deluded, Simon Pia phoning headmaster type, and all consuming prediliction with spin. It is entirely like someone saying that for the years 1968-2008 they did drugs, drank to excess, shagged STD ridden purveyors of pleasure and ate badly all that time, BUT should be in perfect health, because during that 30 year period for a brief interval (from 2001-2004) they were vegetarian.
312

,

02/05/2008 20:56:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
313

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 21:21:40
409 - AM2 - why, I wonder, do you prefer shorter measures? These, your preferred subjective sliced figures, show Scotland lagging the UK. You cannot erase history by not including it in your preferred slice of stats - it is a fact that Scotland's GDP growth over the last 30 years is a half of the average of small european countries, and a quarter of Irelands. This has cost Scotland 40-80 £billion, transformational additional funding (if we had had it) Why is this?
314

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 21:24:31
407. Disaster. I was rooting (metaphorically) for Ken. Was it Dick Tuck (not an operation that AM2 recently had) who said "the people have spoken, the b+stards"?

315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 21:29:50
407. I have done in depth research since my last reply, and Ken seems to have closed the gap - at lunchtime, when AM2 was selecting quarters of growth and the Master was waiting for "Rubzz" of Antwerp to start serving drink, Boris was ahead in 10 out of 14 areas.... it is now 8 to 6.... the Evening Standard say that no second preferences will be needed, which seems as reliable as AM2's GDP stats.

Hey, AM2. who do you prefer for London Mayor?

316

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 21:37:10
Hmm, Ken.
Right on, but with an anti-Scots element...

Boris.
Almost everything I despise wrapped up in one package.

But funny.
317

,

02/05/2008 21:48:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
318

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 02/05/2008 22:04:25
A positive story on the SNP for a change in the Hootsman, Ayrshire Scot good to see the real you back on, pity i missed AM2.
319

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:05:43
417
Peculiar statement;-)
419
That why you went to Spain?
320

Davie from Irvine,

02/05/2008 22:06:38
419 The tories governing from London wont be ruling Scotland if we come out of the political union.
321

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 22:09:36
AM2 see thats why you dont get the point that miss H is making. you say that you are 100 percent british and 100 percent irish. Im 100 percent scottish and thats all i want to be................I dont want to be british anything. Im a scot its part of my make up its who i am. Its how i define myself. I have no other loyalty but to one country SCOTLAND. My loyalties are in now way divided as yours are. I want the best for my country and i beleive that we can only have the best as an independent country because then we can work for the betterment of scotland. I dont beleive that westminster can cater to scottish needs because we are very different countries.
322

,

02/05/2008 22:10:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
323

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:10:47
420. Thanks, fellow Ayrshire coaster (great sunset tonight over Arran, but I feel we should not gloat over the East coast and landward contingent). I am sure AM2 will be back, and goood to see him on again, as about the only Unionist apart from Geoff who is capable of informed discussion.
324

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:12:48
426. What is "tiffin". As a child during the "carry on years" I associate it with Kenneth Williams and now with people accosting me constantly, as a fitter young man,in later life, in Soho.
325

karinxxx,

02/05/2008 22:14:34
AM2 westminster has attempted over the years to make scotland homogenous with england instead of celebrating our diversity. When scotland wants to do things differently then there are complaints from england as if we were some part of england we are not we are a seperate country. In essence what i as a nationalist am saying is i dont want my country to be the same as yours and people need to respect that. I respect the rest of the uk right to be different why cant they respect our right. If you re read the essay you will see that this is what orwell is saying.
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:15:06
426. WHat do you mean by "BJ"? I associate the phrase strongly with my perambulations through Soho in a kilt.
327

Davie from Irvine,

02/05/2008 22:15:20
Ive got to admit i usually quite like AM2 even though i disagree with most of what he says.
328

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:16:16
425
Do you not miss a pint in your local sometimes?

427
Ayrshire, west coast sunsets are lovely.

We've got haars...
329

,

02/05/2008 22:17:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
330

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:21:32
430
Unfortunately I am still tied to the rat race rails...
331

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 02/05/2008 22:23:20
After the next Westminster election it looks like we will have a tory government with an SNP government in Hollyrood, that should be interesting.
332

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:23:35
434. We have haars here as well, but Margo has not yet campaigned for local tolerance zones for it
333

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:23:58
429
Us slightly older chaps can tell you "Tiffin" also was a chocolate bar containing raisons and biscuit.
334

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:25:34
435, Ah, bit too big for you was it? appetite bigger than your capacity?

335

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:26:58
438
She hasn't?

Fog me.
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:28:00
439. Ah yes, is coming back to me. I think when I was 13 an older chap offered me some to go in his car. I think Tiffin should be made class B.

337

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:29:38
441. No. The haars just wander about the coastline.
338

,

02/05/2008 22:30:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
339

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:46:11
444
That happens in Leith as well.

340

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 22:47:38
449. Play misty for margo?
341

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 22:55:47
450
Bleary for Blair? Brume for Broon?
342

Truely English,

02/05/2008 22:59:10
424
Of course you are Scottish, but the important factor is that you speak English and are culturally the same as all us Brits.

Good luck to you wherever you go as you have a major advantage as you can speak English.

Didn't the Tories do well in England and Wales.
343

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 23:10:58
452
"culturally the same as all us Brits"

Well I've just finished ma lava bread jellied eel piece, washed down wi a bitter and scrumpy pint and a malt chaser.

And the tories did do well...Scottish Independence is almost here...
344

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:13:17
452. Why did you say ""culturally the same as all us Brits"? Makes it sound like we are differnt from you Brits?

PS - liked your Gaydar profile
345

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 23:21:01
454
What was there to like?

Perhaps I don't want to know...
346

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:27:05
455. Union jack panties in swimming pool pics
347

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:27:37
455. Who won the mayor thing? I am still rooting for Ken
348

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:32:40
459. Yes, but he was out of focus (both ways)

349

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:34:49
460. Agree, nauseating hypocrisy from Brown (who said Livingstone would be a disaster for London) clinging on to him in hope of one electoral redemption. But still Ken is preferable to Boris (in vague way that one sell out Labourite who has no principles and hates Scotland is better than a vile Tory)

350

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 23:34:52
456
What was the one with a cartoon elk on the wrapper?
457
Consider yourself disciplined.It would have been OK if said panties had a saltire...
351

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:40:56
463. Ah, Truely (sic) English troll's (A E Neuman, Cider, HM) profile pics on gaydar show a rather fat, acneous chap with a simian over-bite anyway, so the flag on the panties was obscured by rolls of fat and glare off the orthodontic braces. I only looked in passing anyway.
352

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 23:45:18
465
Know your enemy...
353

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:46:48
465, Or at least the sad uggers who will buy your drinks in parts of London
354

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:47:35
466, Who won the bollocking mayor thing? Nothing on BBC>

355

Conan the Librarian™,

02/05/2008 23:51:34
468
Looks like the floppy haired fop f*ck
356

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/05/2008 23:56:06
469. Yeah, just looked at the first pref votes on "london elects" - Tory wipe out, was thinkin if Ken was behind a wee bit (like Truely -sic- English pics, in terms of wee bit behind) he could win, but no is Tory blue-wash.
Poor Labour types. They will no doubt tell us tomorrow why the Union does not mean Tory UK government

357

Truely English,

02/05/2008 23:56:39
Boris is our Hero. Who else could win. He is batting for all of Britain.

Got a lot of Scottish friends who are really tired of Labour but fully supportive of the Union and our shared language and beloved culture. Long may the English language be up there at the top.
358

Conan the Librarian™,

03/05/2008 00:01:10
470
Work the morn. Night Ayrshire.
359

 Ayrshire Scot™,

03/05/2008 00:04:48
471. You need to lose weight, your gaydar pics are vile.

473. Nighty and hats on.
360

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 03/05/2008 00:18:38
471 Truely

Boris and the English language. Are those your two outstanding principles?

One is a joke and the other could describe the joke.

London didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Labour. London will be the loser. Boris will fall flat on his face. It's in his nature. As someone on Question Time said: "Cameron will have to get him out of tricky situations throughout his mayorship".

Like I said. A joke.
361

Hubert Farnsworth,

CGL™ 03/05/2008 00:54:55
We did and it does you idiot.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.