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Scots Tory leader attacks SNP government as 'left-wing' and 'living in the past'



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Published Date: 24 March 2008
SCOTTISH Tory leader Annabel Goldie yesterday launched an attack on the Scottish Government, claiming the Nationalists' "left-wing agenda" was beginning to emerge.
Miss Goldie, left, hit out at the SNP administration, accusing ministers of "living in the past" when it came to public services.

"The SNP's left-wing agenda for Scotland's public services is starting to emerge," she said.

"They may have succee
ded in keeping it under wraps during the election, but there is only so long you can hide your true colours."

The Conservative leader in Scotland said decisions taken on education, prisons, health and the future of Scottish Water all supported her argument.

Opposition politicians have accused the Scottish Government of scrapping the "Schools of Ambition" scheme and Miss Goldie said: "The decision to scrap the Schools of Ambition scheme demonstrated socialist dogma at its worst." On justice, she claimed: "The SNP have achieved the incredible feat of even making Scottish Labour seem more in touch with public opinion."

She hit out at SNP proposals to extend the use of the home detention curfew scheme – which allows prisoners to be released early under electronic tagging – and said: "They want to empty our prisons, as proved by a determination to extend home detention curfews to more violent offenders."

She also said the government had refused to form partnerships with private-sector health providers, branding this "nothing less than political ideology getting in the way of patient care".





The full article contains 253 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 March 2008 10:27 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 24/03/2008 01:03:20
Away and raffle yourself Annabel
2

The Daleks,

Longmen 24/03/2008 01:14:39
Whilst I fully support Scottish independence, I'm extremely concerned that the SNP seem to be hell bent on filling the country with immigrants.

Not only does this keep wages down, it keeps our own unskilled people out of work, and acts as a disincentive to train our own apprentices. In addition it undermines our culture and sense of national cohesion.

I know I'm not the only current SNP supporter with grave concerns about this issue. Alex and co should remember who they were elected to serve.
3

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 01:30:26
2

Alex and company are elected to serve all residents of Scotland, regardless of colour, creed, ethnicity or place of origin. If you cannot accept that, perhaps you are in the wrong party.
4

The Daleks,

Longmen 24/03/2008 01:36:39
#3

I'm talking about the SNP's desire to import more immigrants, I'm not referring to the ones who currently reside here legally.
5

subrosa,

24/03/2008 01:45:15
# 4

The whole immigration business has to be completely overhauled. We need to know who is here, why and for how long.

The only way that could be done is to halt immigration and sort the mess out.

Then we can build a population worthy of being called Scotland.
6

Richardinho,

24/03/2008 01:54:34
Personally I think she has a point. I think the SNP IS too left wing. On the other hand, the Conservatives are too pro-British for my liking.
With Labour of course you get the worst of both worlds.
7

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen 24/03/2008 02:39:37
#6 Right on!
8

,

24/03/2008 03:54:27
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9

The Daleks,

Longmen 24/03/2008 04:34:11
#5

Agreed.
10

Peter The Imperfect,

Penelope's Pitstop 24/03/2008 05:02:08
I too have recently become very concerned about the SNP's bid to become a reincarnated version of Old Labour. Although it may succeed in attracting disillusioned Nulabs it will alienate many others like myself.

I also echo poster #2 and worry about their apparent arrogance in disregarding the views of ordinary Scots in their voiced support of flooding the country with immigrants and their willingness to support asylum seekers claims-however bogus.

I feel that we should address the reason why we have experienced a declining population-at its roots it stems from a lack of opportunity-essentially if there were many good jobs available then people would not leave-? Solution-create opportunity-in particular remedy any skill shortages due to an outdated education system, curb a bloated public sector -including Holyrood, and reform a welfare system which encourages people to remain on benefits and results in too many layabouts being supported by a decreasing minority of taxpayers etc etc.

This idea that we need new immigrants to bolster our population flies in the face of reality-do we really want to end up like Londonistan with its rampant race and crime problems? God forbid-multiculturalism has been an abject failure-everyone apart from the left-wing PC types who wish to destroy the country can see this.

Developing our own human capital and getting our own people properly incentivised and equipped with the right skills to be back in work and protecting our own interests must be priority no1.

At the moment I am increasingly sceptical that the SNP realizes this.


11

,

24/03/2008 05:23:28
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12

donald,

glasgow 24/03/2008 05:38:30
So Labour stole her claes. Whit's new?
13

,

24/03/2008 06:10:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
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14

The Daleks,

Longmen 24/03/2008 06:18:59
#13

It's not a question of not being able to stop them, it's a question of his actively encouraging them.
15

glassbenmhor,

24/03/2008 06:55:33
The deal for all of us is the final deliverence to standing upon our own two feet,so the quicker we all use the SNP to get us there the better,after which their purpose is DONE,they can go fly a kite as far as I'm concerned.
16

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/03/2008 07:42:59
Aye right Annabel - then explain why you are propping up this nationalist administration whenever the opportunity arises. The Tories continue to be the most hypocritical party in living memory.
17

Bob Christie,

24/03/2008 07:49:17
It ius quite understandable for the SNP to be seen as left wing since the alternative, the fused LabToryLib party is extreme right wing.
What else woulf you expect in Scotland's new two party system?
18

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 24/03/2008 08:04:06
It is plain for all to see that the SNP have a "left wing agenda" although they may call it an egalitarian agenda. The Tories since they steadfastly refuse to be other than a unionist party have nothing to offer the people of Scotland with right wing views and a belief in Scotland being an independent nation. The sooner this dawns on the good lady the sooner we will have balanced political representation in Scotland. Waken up Annabel to the reality of modern day Scotland and where it is heading in the future.
19

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 08:09:57
Drearie me we're either Tartan Tories, Tartan Taliban or Tartan Trots can't you chaps make up your mind?
20

Duncan in Edinburgh,

24/03/2008 08:33:44
I see that backing the budget wasn't the only favour Annabel agreed to do for Alex. Attacking him from the right is a very effective way to crowd out Labour's chances of attacking him at all. Although I hold a long-standing grudge against Goldie over her lies in Parliament during the Section 28 debate, I have to say that she has demonstrated quite some political guile during her leadership of the Tories. This is a clever move, that plays to the SNP's short-term interests, and the Tories' long-term interests.
21

eric,

24/03/2008 08:35:28
The tory party in Scotland should split,They may even get a vote!
22

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 08:44:14
It is choice of the indigenous Tory leader to suddenly attack the Nationalists after appeasing them, and treating with them to enable SNP legislation to progress through the Scottish Parliament!

The indigenous Tories cannot have it both ways? The Tories forget that, since 1997, they have been a MINORITY political party at Holyrood!

As one political commentator so cruelly stated: " The Scots Tories are treated worse than low caste political Dalits by the mass of the Scots Electorate"!

We would not have reached this stage in our history if the discredited Tories at the old Scottish Office had
simply listened to the Scots, instead of slavishly following Thatcher's anti-Scottish policies during the fag end of Great Britain!

History might well record that Thatcher never 'saved'
Great Britain but was the catalyst for Scottish Devolution, and the huge upsurge in Nationalism!

The Scots Tories can shout and bawl from the fringes of Scots politics but they will always be remembered for their culpablity in this shameful episode in our history!

23

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 09:00:48
Tories attack SNP here, Labour attacks Lib Dems in the Herald, SNP simply gets on with running the country.

Changed days eh?
24

Doh,

24/03/2008 09:20:24

How bizzare.

Why did she vote for the budget of a left wing out dated government.

Maybe she needs a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.
25

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 09:21:21
The SNP have done more in months for Scotland than the Tories or Labour did in years.(Should that be decades ?)
We have seen action on prescription charges, university fees, tolls, and many other less obvious changes which could have been carried out at any time by any government.
Why did the Tories and Labour not take some action on even the minor issues which were within their power in Scotland?
They wouldn't do it when they had the chance, why should we think that they would be any different if they were given the opportunity again ?
After over ten years in power Labour have not got rid of a single peice of Thatcher's anti trade unionist legislation.
26

Calum Crubag,

24/03/2008 09:40:35
"The SNP's left-wing agenda for Scotland's public services is starting to emerge," she said.

Shocking! It's an outrage that taxpayers are getting public services. I thought the successful merging of Tory and Labour had consigned 'public' services to the past.

More knee-jerk cac from the sinister right-wing forces of Brit Nat Tory/Labour unionism.
27

Stu_R_20,

24/03/2008 09:50:59
I'd like to see Big Goldie sort out our leeching public sector, efficiency sackings aplenty is what's needed.
Echoing some earlier posts the SNP's proposals for increased immigration are a concern...
28

Nikostratos,

24/03/2008 09:55:01
#23 OscarMacApfel,

"Tories attack SNP here, Labour attacks Lib Dems in the Herald, SNP simply gets on with running the country. "


stop fibbing Oscar the snp Government run the 10% of devolved powers the other 90% is Governed from the United Kingdoms Westminster Parliament
29

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 10:17:33
I think she makes some valid points.

Some fairly unsavoury comments about immigration above. How many of you separatists are motivated by a desire for Scotland to pull up the drawbridge, so to speak?
30

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 10:26:23
#28 Tsk fibbing! Isn't Scotland a country?

#29 Separatists! Michty how many of you Little Britain dependency monkeys favour a policy of eugenic migration?
31

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 10:26:39
So to speak...
32

Publius,

London 24/03/2008 10:34:43
#2 #10
I hope you are not the real voice of nationalism. Most immigrants to Scotland are English. Your barely concealed anti-Engish sentiments are starting to cause difficulties for Scots (like me) in England.
33

Publius,

London 24/03/2008 10:38:26
There may be something in what the Scottish Tories are saying. The Scottish NHS and Scottish Water are classic examples of state inefficiency, waste and ineffectiveness. The disciplines of the market need to be brought to bear on them. Sooner or later even the SNP will come to recognise this.
34

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 10:43:41
If the SNP are "left-wing" and "living in the past", why did the Conservatives vote for the SNP's budget?
35

 Ayrshire Scot™,

24/03/2008 10:44:02
33. "The disciplines of the market need to be brought to bear on them."

Yes, that worked well for Northern Rock, and in privatising prisoner transport, and in our privatised rail network. The magic phrase "disciplines of the market" - what an empty piece of maagerialist new speak.
36

Publius,

London 24/03/2008 10:57:14
#35 Ayrshire Scot (1) If the discipline of the market had been applied to Northern Rock it would have gone bust. And quite right too. This would have saved billions of public money. And it would have encouaged other banks to behave themselves. Labour couldn't face the electoral fallout in its North East England heartland where there are 6000 employees of Northern Rock.
(2) More passengers have travelled by rail and in greater safety during the last 10 years than in the preceeding 10 years. The only bit of the rail system that doesn't work properly is Network Rail and that is the bit that is owned by the state and the bit that closes down chunks of the system on holiday weekends.
(3) Agree with you about prisoner transport though. I don't think prisoners should belong to private companies. Prisoners are not customers!
37

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

24/03/2008 11:21:25
So we Nats are all 'Pinko Lefties' noo, it must be true Matron Goldie said it!!!

Oh aye an accordin to Windy 'Short change is what wie gie' Alexander, we're aw 'Tartan Tories', no tae menshun that some o' they Onionist trolls oot there aw ca' us Tartan Taliban, am really biginin tae think that there aw awfully confused an' dazed.

Mibbee they should aw stoap takin thon wacky baccy, so beloved o' the 'Twittering Classes', and just hie a guid glass o' Grahams Black Boatul insteed.
38

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 24/03/2008 12:30:08
Good Post #10. I totally agree.
39

,

24/03/2008 12:33:02
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40

Border Scot,

24/03/2008 13:08:03
#40 - It's far too simplistic to label the SNP a left wing party. Just look at what Brian Souter is reported to have said yesterday about taxation - it flies in the face of anything that could be called left wing and is essentially right-wing, libertarian economics.

The SNP exists for one reason - and that is to see Scotland become an independent country. At the moment, everything else is secondary to that. You can be a Thatcherite economically and support Scottish independence - as Brian Souter does; or you can come from the left and believe in independence; you can be pro-EU or anti-EU and still want an independent Scotland. And so on.

What will be interesting to see over the coming years is how successful the SNP as a party with real power is in keeping its coalition together, especially if there continues to be no discernibe clamour for indepndence.
41

,

24/03/2008 13:08:11
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42

,

24/03/2008 13:17:50
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43

Los Angeles,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 13:43:13

The SNP have had decades to formulate policy, to debate, to reject and accept ideas on the basis that whatever they choose to promote it will further the interests of Scotland.

The ultmate ideal of full independence, a return to complete self-determination, is and always has been, a long-term ideal, one that they hope will be earned by judicious good government.

Knowing that, knowing that their will is paramount, the people of Scotland see no threat in electing an SNP government.

So far, the people of Scotland have said the SNP are an asset to good government.


44

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 14:12:26
#43 Los Angeles

Great spin. Your cheque from McDonald Road is in the post! ;-)

After eight years, Scottish Labour were tired and hackneyed, their ability to conceive of truly fresh initiatives having all but dried up. It happens to every governing party after a while. They were in need of a period in the wilderness to rethink and regroup. The electorate duly obliged.

There are some smart cookies in the SNP - Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney in particular. Despite being a broad church, the party currently has a strong sense of mission, due in no small part to their independence agenda. The electorate rather like that. Even I rather like that aspect.

But haven't you noticed that support for independence has at best stagnated, and more probably even tailed off in the past year. The multi-option polls are consistently showing around 23% support for independence. For over a year, no single-option poll with even the most contrivedly pro-independence wording has shown anything remotely approaching majority support for separation. In fact, after an apparent boost for support indicated by two consecutive TNS System Three polls last year, the next single-option poll came in at only 27%.

So despite the SNP government's best effects, the public has no greater an interest in dismantling Britain. And I suspect that the SNP's calculated populism is part of the reason why. After all, if people react fairly well to the kinds of measures which can be effected within a devolved framework, why would they be interested in the inevitable upheaval and risks of divorce?
45

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 14:18:31
All the more reason to get rid of this silly experiment in devolved power
... these idiots and their hot air.

Yawn-nnnn!!!
Scrap Hollyrood ... it only makes Scotland look stupid and parochial

Outright independence or the status quo
... devolved assemblies just produce airheads like Goldie; Salmond; and Alexander.
46

Methalions,

24/03/2008 14:30:32
Amparo?
47

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 24/03/2008 14:45:11
Annabel, you're bang on Hen, the SNP's left wing agenda is coming out.

Would that be why they are now so far ahead in the Polls, and Tories in Scotland are an endangered species?
48

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 14:48:41
JoeMcT,BlairsFantasyIsland 24/03/2008 14:45:11

if it was not for Hollyrood ... there would be no elected Tories in Scotland
49

Allan(handofgod137),

24/03/2008 15:09:38
#47, so you'de be living in wee eck'sw fantasy land, recon the real reason we're backing eck's budget is to show up their lack of nouce which the left has when it comes to money. Give 'em enough rope.
50

Red Etin,

24/03/2008 15:30:37
"claiming the Nationalists' "left-wing agenda" was beginning to emerge."

...er, yes, that's why I vote for them.
51

Los Angeles,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:32:46

45 - Alvarez

Those "airheads" you refer to are all elected airheads.

Doesn't say much for your view of the electorate, obviously all fools except you. So, tell us, are you an elected or self-appointed airhead? And did you omit Nicol Stephen in error or deliberately?



52

Media 1,

cape town 24/03/2008 15:34:31
SNP = Freedom Fighters!

The only problem with that? Scotland is already free, always has been.
53

JayDeeTee,

24/03/2008 15:57:12
Who is Annabel Goldie and what is the 'Tory Party'?? Oh, I faintly remember them. Remind us of what percentage of the vote this lot got in the last election in Scotland?
54

An Beal Bacht,

24/03/2008 16:19:14
The unionist war cry:

SERVIIIITUUUUDDDE!
55

subrosa,

24/03/2008 16:22:55
#44

Part of the reason for further support regarding independence is to do with the Scots character. We're a canny lot and need more convincing that most to alter our opinions. So far many have changed from the status quo to 'more powers'. We're gradualists and quite happy to take our time. I'm sure most will recognise when our time has come.
56

An Beal Bacht,

24/03/2008 16:23:08
29 AM2, Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 10:17:33 writes:

"Some fairly unsavoury comments about immigration above. How many of you separatists are motivated by a desire for Scotland to pull up the drawbridge, so to speak"

Is immigration a closed (so to speak) subject then? Could supply you with a list of URL's from unionist sources that give new meaning to "unsavoury".
57

McGinty,

24/03/2008 16:33:19
#10
'...multiculturalism has been an abject failure...'
Possibly, but that's down to our lack of cultural cohesion and common purpose as Brits and Scots. The Irish, don't have this problem the same as us as they've embraced their common culture more than we have.
58

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 16:34:46
Number 51 ...
Los Angeles,Edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:32:46

... no I honestly believe that the Hollyrood experiment has been a total disater ... it was Blair and Mandelson's invention and a way of dealing with their "Scot's problem".

However devolved assemblies do not work ... they are bad news ... either be governed from the centre (i.e. London) or go for outright independence.
That is my point of view ... and
... no I am not an elected official
... nor do I hold any desire to be one.



Number 52 ... Media 1 ... excellent post ... as usual ... you are normally spot on mate ... well said.

Salmond is Scotland's biggest joke
... everything he does and says just makes Scotland look like parochial sabre-rattling fools
... but that is probably all the man's limited imagination can come up with.
Scotland needs to start defining itself in relation to the rest of the world ... rather than it's relationship with England.

Salmond is a buffoon and a circus clown whose antics make Scotland the laughing stock of this planet.
59

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 16:36:19
#53 JayDeeTee

For Holyrood, 16.6% (constituency vote)

2004 European elections: SNP 19.7%, Conservatives 17.8%
2005 Westminster election: SNP 17.7%, Conservatives 15.8%

I wouldn't write them off just yet!
60

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 16:39:29
#56 An Beal Bacht

Not at all "closed". But while recognition of religious and/or cultural differences which may be incompatible with our shared liberal, democratic values and resultant laws is important, talk of "our own people" and "rampant race and crime problems" is just incendiary.
61

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 16:41:28
Number 57 ...
McGinty,24/03/2008 16:33:19
... probably because 99.5 percent of people living in Ireland are WHITE !!!

However they do have their "gypsy problem".

Also if you go elsewhere
... the Irish are quite narrow-minded and xenophobic ... listen to their opinions and use of colourful metaphors to describe "ethnics"
Hardly a glowing example of an open and tolerant people are they really
... but then deep down ... part of the problem is
... who is ??
62

An Beal Bacht,

24/03/2008 16:42:33
59 - AM2, Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 16:36:19 writes:

"I wouldn't write them off just yet!"

Aye - they're like herpes - just when ye think ye've got rid ae them ...
63

Edward,

24/03/2008 16:51:55
Labour accuse the SNP of being 'tartan tories', the Tories accuse the SNP of being to left wing
And the Libdesm, well the Libdems are still thinking about this one. They will have a meeting , following by group hug, followed by sitting on fence
64

An Beal Bacht,

24/03/2008 16:52:24
60 - AM2, Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 16:39:29 writes:

"#56 An Beal Bacht

Not at all "closed". But while recognition of religious and/or cultural differences which may be incompatible with our shared liberal, democratic values and resultant laws is important, talk of "our own people" and "rampant race and crime problems" is just incendiary."

You're quite right - to blame all social ills on immigrants is just wrong. As for the term "my own people" that's just descriptive surely. Incendiary, however, is the Westminster labour governments policy of bringing in 600,000 immigrants a year. Most of these folks settle in England and is leading to "white flight" of English folks to Scotland and further afield. Surely this is a topic that has to be discussed openly and with respect.
65

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:00:35
Number 60
AM2 ...
The problem we face here in Britain
... and it is very very similar in France;
the Netherlands;
and Germany
... is a Muslim minority with no desire to integrate or participate in those shared liberal democratic values and resultant laws.
66

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:05:16
Number 60 ...
AM2 ...
Ask yourself this important question.

Why have the Press and TV in Britain been so cowed and submissive with regard to Islam ???

Why has this publication and any other not published the Danish cartoons about Islam and Mohammad??
67

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 17:07:30
#64 An Beal Bacht

We'll have to agree to disagree. I find the whole idea that people of "indigenous" origin or ethnicity are "our own people" and those with different backgrounds or ethnicities are "not our own people" extremely distasteful. It seems to imply classes of citizenship based on birthplace etc - a repugnant notion.

Now, I'm not sure that I understand the exact nature of your concern. If it's the non-integration of certain communities, the "ghettoisation" within various British cities and the resultant alienation of people who were previously there, then I'd say you have a legitimate concern. But if you have a problem with English people moving to Scotland, that's a different matter.
68

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 17:10:41
#66 Stefania

Primarily because the "dhimmi" mentality is being cultivated by some Islamists. I'm not blind to that. But we're talking only about a minority of Muslims here. You're tarring them all with the same brush, which is very unhelpful.
69

morris,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 17:12:39
Instead of accusing the SNP of being left wing and right wing maybe we should deal in facts.
This party was a coalition of two breakaway parties from Labour and Conservative ,and like all nationalist parties is a broad church with a common interest which unites them.The party usually adopts what most would consider a left of centre stance,but in truth I'm sure the SNP would take the view if Its Good for Scotland then its Good for the SNP.
That is what any party who genuinely cares about the people should be doing in any case.
What the SNP definitely are is pro Scottish.
They are also everything else to the exclusion of nothing,and memberships stretch across the entire political spectrum.

People like George Kerevan or Alex Neil are just as much at home as former leading Tory Ian Lawson was.Why not? If what they claim is correct then all of Scotland will benefit and all are required to participate.

Its hard to imagine a more broad church than that,but if Scotland is to unite, thats the only way it can happen. They oppose Scotland when they oppose each other and self destruct. The goal is independence ,what we do with it can be decided after we secure it.
Its a bit like a production line. You can argue what colour it should be ,or you can build one and then decide when you have something to paint!
This is why the SSP and Solidarity are surplus to requirements.
70

An Beal Bacht,

24/03/2008 17:19:34
67 AM2, Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 17:07:30

My concern is not with English people moving here but that they feel impelled to move due to incoming migrants replacing the "indigenous" population.

I understand your feelings re: ethnic identity - just don't share them.

Anyway - work calls -TTFN
71

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:25:02
Number 68 AM2 ...
... Good
I am glad you are not blind.

However look at developments worldwide.

Islam is on the offensive all over this planet.
In Iran; Afghanistan; Saudi Arabia; Kosovo;

... and yes unfortunately down South in London; Bradford; Leeds; Manchester; Preston
... there is a hardcore of militant Islamists who flagrantly stick one finger up at the democratic system ... our way of life ... and the shared liberal values and resultant laws.

Look across the English Channel at neighbouring France or the Netherlands.

Why does this newspaper or any other not publish the Danish cartoons??
72

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 17:26:22
#57 McGinty

Worth a read... "Jihad in Ireland"
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2006/12/jihad_in_ireland.html
73

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:28:51
Number 67 AM2 ...
... Well said ...!!!

The Maastricht Treaty of European integration allows for freedom of movement of goods; services; products; and PEOPLE !!!

This is the reason why Poles come here
... and why so many Brits now live in France; Germany; Greece and Spain
74

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:33:51
Number 72 AM2 ...
Just been to the site you describe ...
I thought it worth replicating the important content contained there:


Firstly, there is a Jihadi propaganda operation active in Ireland.

Secondly, there is, within the Muslim community in Ireland, high-level sympathy for Jihad.

Thirdly, there is a small [15%-19%] element in this community, which supports such terror.

Fourthly, several active Jihadi terrorists have been identified with Irish links.

Fifthly, a significant Al-Qaida figure is based in Dublin for some 25 years, and has acquired Irish citizenship.
75

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 17:34:12
#71 Stefania

Yes, I'm aware of the bigger picture. But in the context of this thread - i.e. Scottish politics - I was trying to tease out just how much Scottish nationalism is motivated by the feeling that England is being "overrun" by immigrants.

Whereas, in reality, smaller nations are probably more vulnerable. A few examples:

Sweden:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Denmark:
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/81636.html

Norway:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1247400.ece

Netherlands:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/12/31/netherlands.arrests/index.html

etc. Anyway, must dash. Bye for now.
76

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 17:41:01
Number 75 AM2 ...

Please credit me with some intelligence.
I do not read the 'Sun'
... or any of the rest of the xenophobic British so-called 'newspapers'
77

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 24/03/2008 18:32:44
Sorry. It's been such a long, long time. Could someone just remind me - who are the "Tories"?!
78

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 24/03/2008 18:44:56
To those who want uncontrolled immigration, I ask: "What is the purpose of a border?" and "What happens if the populations living on either side of a border become the same?"

The people of Scotland spilt blood to have the right to rule themselves in the way they wished to be ruled. That right does not exist right now, but if we were to regain it, then it would be folly to dilute our right by permitting free immigration. While it is not quite true to say that multiculturalism does not work - it depends on the initial extent of difference between the autochthonic and immigrant populations, the rate of assimilation, and the relative sizes of the communities - it is certainly true that pure forms of certain cultures are politically incompatible and people who wish to live in accord with such incompatible cultures must be separated by a border for the sake of peace. Which is a damn good reason for having countries. Another is to avoid equal representation (as opposed to equal opportunities) laws. Equal representation laws have an appallingly bad effect on any erstwhile meritocracy, forcing companies to employ second rate job applicants in order to match representivity quotas. Such systems cause the mass emigration of highly skilled workers and stoke the fires of racism and/or sexism and/or creedism, as the case may be. Scotland/Alba must NEVER go down the route of equal representivity - it's a killer.
79

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/03/2008 18:59:24
#77 Here's a typical Tory

http://tinyurl.com/39gv4g
80

Robert,

Kirriemuir 24/03/2008 20:07:22
While I did not previously support the SNP it does appear that as a political party they are in touch with the majority views of the people and the needs of Scotland and for that I am grateful. Previously I was a Tory supporter but guess who discouraged me? Today, I am looking forward to Tommy Sheridan's rise to fame; he is today's Rob Roy! My slogan now is, "Tommy Sheridan for King"! Tommy and the SNP would make this country a glorious place in which to live. I recognise he has a lot of critics but he is not afraid to stand-up and be counted nor to challenge the giants and this courage and his tenacity appeals to me.
81

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 24/03/2008 20:08:10
I never thought that I would agree with AM2 but I am also againt raciasm and intolerance of different ethnic groups.AM2 probably knows very well that the SNP welcome people of all etnic groups and recognise "new Scots" such as Asians,English etc.All parties contain racists but the SNP does not promote racism.Peoples desire for independance is normal,as my Finnish wife would tell you.It is not about feeling superior,it is about taking responsibility for the claim of nationhood.

Getting back on topic,the SNP probably are a moderate left of centre party,but so what? The important thing for success in politics is the extent to which you understand the wishes of the electorate.That is why the SNP are riding so high in the opinion polls just now.Also,contary to some peoples views,I believe that a majority can be obtained for independence,in a referendum.I think that our political opponents know this and that is why there is not enough support in the Scottish Parliament just now.The detail in the latest opinion polls suggest this possibility.Of course some individuals selectively use statistics that they like but ignore the detail.For example in a multi question survey,there is always a large number who would like greater powers.It is very possible that in a referndum campaign,a lot of those people could be persuade to vote yes for undependence.Also recent polls indicate that a large number couild be persuaded to change their minds and vote yes.Those individuals come from the whole political spectrum.The independence movement has a chance of converting a lot of people in both of the groups who are currently not saying that they want independance,because independance transends narror party polotics.Annabelle needs to learn this lesson very rapidly,as does Wendy.
82

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/03/2008 21:18:03
#23 - in your dreams. Problem you lot have got is the meglomaniac who leads the party and right now has the audacity to pretend he's behaving like Scotland First Minister in picking fights here there and everywhere instead of focussing on the issues that matter to people - like more bobbies on the beat, getting rid of student debt, creating more renewable energy sites, investing in education etc. All we see are more and more pledges to do things come 2011 - so Stop Nationalist Progaganda NOW!
83

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/03/2008 21:21:48
#81 - its the peoples of Scotland that need to learn quickly that who they have in power are "men of Straw" with no real political philosophy. They are a creed that only want independence for independence sake - then what? Who knows as they certainly don't. Its acharade, pure and simple, but a very dangerous one at that.
84

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 21:32:58
Number 83 ...
Liberal for life,Dunblane 24/03/2008 21:21:48

Well in the case of Alex Salmond
... power for the sake of power !!!

Still lots of delusional Scots are happy to be cogs in his glorious career.

He will cling on to power because that is what self-obsessed narcissistic politicians like Salmond do best.

He now has his snout firmly planted in the Scottish trough ... he will continue to ride the Gravy Train for as long as the electorate are taken in by his egomaniac nonsense.

He does not really care about Scotland.

... only his own glorious political career ... he wil say and do anything to maintain it !!!
85

Jackie Priest,

24/03/2008 22:07:29
AM2: "I was trying to tease out just how much Scottish nationalism is motivated by the feeling that England is being "overrun" by immigrants."

Eh?

What on earth are you rambling on about, AM2? A couple of bozos post some bozo racist claptrap and you're trying to apply this racist thing to the whole of the SNP and the pro-independistas?

It is impossible to take you seriously, except of course for your la la land anti-islamic hysteria, which is a threat to muslims within our communities who are among the most peaceful, hard-working and law-abiding peoples of our communities.
86

Stefania Alvarez,

24/03/2008 22:30:13
Number 85 ... Jackie Priest ...
You need to learn the truth about Islam and the paedophile prophet Mohammad (who married a six year old then raped her when Ayshea (his 'wife') was only nine years old )

Find out about Islam rather than quickly and stupidly defending it.
Read the hate-spewing Koran or Hadiths ...!!!

Find out the truth and wake up !!!
87

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 22:53:18
#85 Jackie Priest

Kindly don't try to put words into my mouth.

I'm not trying to "apply" anything. I was wondering to what extent it was a factor.

If the answer's "not much", that's great. I certainly hope it's not much.

Your claim that I'm guilty of "anti-islamic hysteria" has no foundation and only goes to show two things: that you're predisposed to thinking the worst of me (we knew that already) and that you have reading comprehension issues (read #60 and #68 again, in particular).
88

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 22:57:54
#78 Caora Dudh

You said: "The people of Scotland spilt blood to have the right to rule themselves in the way they wished to be ruled. That right does not exist right now..."

Yes, it does. The people of Scotland have the right to remain part of Britain or to go it alone, as they prefer.

Independence parties have never come close to polling a majority of the votes - in any election, ever.

Opinion polls show clearly that devolution trumps independence by a factor of over two to one.

But all the people of Scotland would ever have to do if they really wanted to become independent would be to indicate it through the ballot box. That's the essence of self-determination.
89

The Strategist,

24/03/2008 23:41:09
Goldie is just upset that Scottish Water won't be privatised so her chums in the City can sell it off to some overseas company.
90

Jackie Priest,

24/03/2008 23:43:45
#88
Well, AM2, what you arr witnessing now is the shift of the Scottish people towards self-determination which is happening relatively quickly given that 1) a pro-independence party has only existed for a few decades and 2) it was only about a 80 years ago that all Scottish (and British) people were able to vote.

The union is 300 years old and is based on a political foundation that is not democratic but was determined by a fraction of the Scottish people.

What we are seeing now is the fruits of Scotland's relatively short history of democracy coming to a crux of choosing what every nation chooses to do (unless prevented by someone else) - independence.

Stop being so full of denial with the poll stats. The majority of the people who support devolution actually state they support more powers for devolution. In other words, the support what is clearly a further step towards political autonomy which only requires a small step to reach independence.

These kinds of things don't just happen overnight but over the course of years, decades. It's clear that most Scots favour a steady approach to independence for which devolution is the mechanism of transition. And there are somewhere between a quarter and a third of Scots who want independence right away, which is too significant a figure not to have influence on the direction we're taking, which is clearly towards fuller autonomy and eventual independence.

The only thing we cannot be sure about is when independence will happen. There is no "If".
91

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 24/03/2008 23:59:14
#90 Jackie Priest

You are looking at this whole issue through the SNP’s gradualist prism, in which you see improving devolution as synonymous with Holyrood accruing ever more powers.

But I think most people aren’t hung up on Scotland’s constitutional position and see devolution in much more pragmatic terms. They can see that some things are best dealt with more locally at Holyrood and others (for example, marine and air transport, the financial markets, defence, national security etc) are more efficiently administered at the UK level.

Most people (myself included) seem to think that there are certain powers that the 1998 Scotland Act reserves to Westminster which might be better dealt with by Holyrood. But I don't see that as having any particular connection to the independence question. It’s precisely that dichotomy that is central to my confidence that the SNP's gradualist strategy for obtaining independence through the transfer of ever increasing powers is flawed and will fail.
92

Jackie Priest,

25/03/2008 09:35:19
#91

Whatever, but you're clearly wrong. Most people in Scotland favour independence. It's in our nature. They just need the self-confidence and conviction to put their desires into practice, which is what's happening now.
93

PaulW,

Borders 25/03/2008 09:50:31
#19 and #23
If you are being condemned for being too left wing by the Tories (Murdo Fraser used to write a document caled Capitalist Worker at Aberdeen Uni) and condemned by being too right wing by those to the left (e.g. on abolishing business rates for SMEs and proposals for an independent Scotland to cut corporation tax) then in my book you actualy pretty much in the centre ground which is where a party aspiring to represent all citizens of Scotland should be. The SNP is a social democratic party and is combining stimulation of sustainable enterprise / economic growth with more compassion than the Tories would ever deliver. That is fine by me. Annabel Goldie, Bill Aitken and Murdo Fraser - no thanks!

 

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