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Scottish rescue bid for DBS 'was blocked'

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Published Date: 31 March 2009
COLLAPSED building society Dunfermline was offered a possible merger with a Scottish-led consortium just weeks ago, it emerged last night.
Scottish Friendly Assurance revealed an initial approach was made in the middle of this month to the ailing mutual, which was taken over by the Nationwide yesterday.

But there were claims the possible rescue bid was effectively blocked on "numerous" occasions. News of the secret approach was revealed as details emerged of the reckless spending that led to the emergency rescue of the Dunfermline by Nationwide.

The Scotsman has learned the Dunfermline offered loans of up to £20 million to an "insolvent" property firm in Lancashire, which then used the cash to provide 100 per cent mortgages on rundown terraced homes in the north of England. This was typical of about £800 million of investments made by the Dunfermline.

The building society was put up for sale on Saturday by the government after a Treasury bail-out was ruled out.

But Scottish Friendly claimed last night that the consortium had made several attempts to open negotiations with Dunfermline officials, but were not given an opportunity to meet them until Sunday, the day after it had collapsed.

In a statement, Scottish Friendly said: "Although numerous attempts were made to open exploratory negotiations with DBS, we were not given an opportunity to meet with them until Sunday, less than 24 hours before a deal was announced.

"While we are of course pleased that the position of DBS members has been secured, the announcement of (the] deal with the Nationwide precludes a Scottish-led solution that may have been a possibility if talks had been agreed between the consortium and DBS at an earlier stage in the process."

Stewart Hosie, the SNP's Treasury spokesman, said last night: "The possibility of alternative bidders – including a Scottish-based bid – that could have seen HQ functions and jobs remain in Scotland is something that all parties should have been aware of prior to the deal with Nationwide.

"The revelations over a possible bid from Scottish Friendly and the speed at which decisions appear to have been made only add to the list of questions the Treasury and the FSA (Financial Services Authority] must answer.

"Once again, a Scottish institution appears to have been sold off in haste without a thorough examination of the options. The FSA, the Treasury and the Dunfermline must reveal what offers where on the table and when."

Jim Willens, the outgoing chief executive of DBS, who will resign in the wake of the Nationwide deal, said: "I am not in a position to comment on any individual approaches. What I can say absolutely 100 per cent is that any proposition or proposal put to the society was looked at thoroughly and immediately."

Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, yesterday announced the government was sinking more than £1.6 billion of taxpayers' money into rescuing the Dunfermline.

Nationwide is to buy all of its branches, "good" loans and deposits, although the brand name will remain. However, it said some of the society's 530 employees "may not be required".

As the Prime Minister branded the stricken mutual the "author of its own mistakes", there was cross-party condemnation of the Dunfermline's board – and demands for an explanation as to why the City watchdog, the FSA, had failed to intervene as the building society's risk-taking increased.

Mr Darling called on Lord Turner, the FSA chairman, to explain its role in supervising the Dunfermline. There was also pressure on the outgoing Dunfermline chairman, Jim Faulds, and the former chief executive, Graeme Dalziel, who left the company last December.

Since 2006, the society had shed its reputation as a safe haven of 140 years' standing to embark on risky investments, such as the purchase of self-certified mortgages from two US firms – one a subsidiary of collapsed bank Lehman Brothers – and to lend to commercial property firms.

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' Treasury spokesman, told MPs the Dunfermline board had been guilty of "disastrous management" and a failure of oversight in allowing it to run up a £24 million loss for 2008.

That required the Treasury, Bank of England and FSA to put the rescue package in place which has resulted in the Dunfermline's staff, retail and wholesale deposits, branches, head office and original residential mortgages being transferred to the Nationwide.

A "bridge bank" has been set up to oversee its social housing portfolio in Scotland, while accountancy firm KPMG has been appointed to sell off commercial loans, which will be used to help repay the £1.6 billion to the taxpayer.

Mr Cable told the Commons DBS made a £10 million loan two years ago to Lancashire property firm In House plc – a company that was "loss-making, insolvent and had never filed any accounts".

He added: "There were substantial numbers of loans of this kind taking place. Is this not an absolutely gross failure of regulation by the FSA? It's very difficult to see how this could have happened under the old building society regime, which kept a much closer eye on the conduct of these societies."

Papers seen by The Scotsman suggest that In House used the 2007 loan to provide 100 per cent mortgages on multi- occupancy or rundown terraced homes in Hull, Stockton and Lancashire, and an industrial unit in Scotland.

A year later, it obtained a second £10 million loan from the Dunfermline, and it has withdrawn some £3 million to £4 million for similar lending. About 25 of the properties are said to be uninhabitable because of the amount of repairs required. The firm could not be reached for comment last night.

Mr Cable, Mr Darling and George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, were united in condemning the failures of the mutual's board and its decision to purchase more than £150 million of self-certified loans from the two US firms – GMAC and the Lehman subsidiary – and embark on £650 million of commercial property lending.

Mr Darling said the Dunfermline's toxic investments were made shortly before the credit crunch that led to the collapse of the residential and commercial markets. He added that the Dunfermline was now losing money as a result of firms collapsing or defaulting on repayments.

Mr Darling said Nationwide had promised there would be no compulsory redundancies for the next three years for the 345 staff of the Dunfermline's 34 branches in Scotland. However, he could give no guarantee for head office staff.


Page 1 of 1

 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

30/03/2009 23:52:14
Where is SNP MSP Alex Neil when we need him?

He is brilliant at saving banks.
2

,

31/03/2009 00:05:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
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3

Vivas,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 00:13:33
Seems like the management were feckless dummies who threw good money into a cesspit of debt. On that basis alone they should be held culpable and dismissed.

The Dunfermline ? No, the Westminster Labour government.
4

danbob,

31/03/2009 00:15:22
The real funny part of all this is the nutters on here who support Jim Faulds in his criticism of Darling for not bailing him out. Can you blame him for not bailing out a bunch of cowboys like this. Incompetence on a gigantic scale and still they cannot figure out why the treasury wouldn't help them out of the mire.
5

,

31/03/2009 00:18:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 31/03/2009 00:18:44
Still more questions than answers, there is a great need for a truly independent body to inquire into this whole affair.

There is no reason for any unionist, from gordon Brown down to those who have just started to comment on this topic to object, especaly if they are proven right.
7

Edward,

31/03/2009 01:00:57
How many smear stories will this paper run against the DBS? Answer - as many as Labour will give them!
Labour are a disgrace! Gutter politics!
Story now emergingthat there was the chance of a rival bid that would safeguard keeping the DBS HQ in Scotland
bu was neve given a chance.The question is why?
No doubt Labour are cooking up an excuse this very minute!
8

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 01:02:38

Incompetence on a gigantic scale (DanBob)

You must be referring to the Bradford & Bingley posting a loss of £500 of - "bad loans."

Incompetence is mild criticism in that case, don't you think?
9

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 01:04:27
You must be referring to the Bradford & Bingley posting a loss of £500 million of - "bad loans." That's better.

Who said £10 in the red get a refusal from the bank for a loan, £1 million debt gets the loan?
10

danbob,

31/03/2009 01:13:50
10# The difference is the ability of the society to service the loan and pay back the interest. BBBS has that ability. How in Gods name would the DBS service the loan they were wanting when they only made a £5 to £6 million profit a year. It's that sort of financial thinking that got them here in the first place.
11

subrosa,

31/03/2009 01:15:29
The buck stops with the FSA, set up by Gordon Brown when he made the Bank of England independent. The FSA have proved to be incompetent and lacking in any ability to monitor processes. Mutual societies need to notify the FSA of any transaction over a certain amount.
12

Jock MacSprog,

31/03/2009 01:20:43
yeah, lets take any joke bid seriously no matter how c{ap as long as its "Scottish" (whatever that is). Thats the SNP view, and apparently shared by many goofy one dimensional gnats on this message board.
13

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 01:23:24
lets take any joke bid seriously no matter how (McCock)

And you have inside information it was a joke bid, you just can't be bothered posting it?
14

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2009 01:39:29
There seems to be a great difference between the UK Treasury view and that of the DBS chairman. Can we see the figures, and the "expert" advice supplied to both?

When there is a difference in scale of £10s of millions and £1.6bn, I think it is in the Public Interest that the facts be made public as it i the taxpayer that is footing the bill.

My suspicion is that we are unlikely to see these figures and advice due to "Commercial interest". I wonder why that would be?
15

Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 31/03/2009 01:53:09
This has to be investigated by the Scottish press. But knowing how the Herald and this paper cow-tow to Labour, I am not holding my breath.
16

,

31/03/2009 03:02:11
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17

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/03/2009 03:45:11
In retrospect we should have had a scottish financial regulator (part of the civil service) to keep building societies and banks boring. Though if I had a light touch on the keyboard to create credit out of nothing, I think I'd have bought a racing yacht and executive jet, not sunk it into darkest Lancashire.

Nevertheless what's missing in Scotland are exciting building societies that would fund exciting buildings like timberframed geodesics. On a DIY level this could come in at £10,000. My point is that exciting buildings need not cost any more than a standard semi, be just as durable and be cheaper to heat. Though if you wanted an modern offgrid high-tech pictish hill fort, and why not if you've £millions to spend, we'd hae a look at your brief.

It'd be mair exciting than a 5 star hotel, executive housing and a golf course. Yawn.
18

Forward not Back,

31/03/2009 04:48:53
I can't believe that people are defending Dunfermline. It made stupid decisions and is paying the price. There are enough zombie banks in the UK without creating another one for the taxpayer to try and support.
19

yockel,

31/03/2009 05:28:22
Is this just a cynical and deceitful backdoor bailout for the Nationwide?
If the Dunfermline "American toxic debt" is in fact English prim residential then presumably all the Building Societies including the Nationwide are in deep trouble.
The dodgy debt at the Dunfermline appears to be UK commercial which they had already pulled out of but it indicates the state of the UK economy.
The Solution for the Nationwide without scaring the market?
Give them the Dunfermline's assets and a 1.6 billion bailout obfuscated with a lot of smoke and mirrors.
20

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 05:42:11
London Labour. They sacrifice Scottish institutions to make us feel helpless.

Many people know who Gordon's masters are and why he is a traitor to his homeland.

I am not going to take the chip or support your government by bankers Gordon.

Be a man and resign. For once in your life, be a man.
21

David MacVicar,

web 31/03/2009 05:49:07
A match made in hell, New Labour, banking, sleaze, corruption and incompetence.

The treasury steps in and decides to take over a banks debts with public money, taking on the debt and flogging the healty assests to a bank in another country.

Meanwhile several interested 'private' businesses take an interest which the public do not get the details of.
Meanwhile the Scottish government setup a public-private bid that reduces the level of public debt and would let the bank continue.

The treasury keeps all parties in the dark, the UK Finance minister LIES on television about the banks dept position and strikes a deal with the Nationwide behind closed doors. Result: no more Dunfermline(not necessarily bad), but another HQ leaves Scottish territory, a union dividend created and another New Labour achievement.

The HORROR of British New Labour isn't working.





22

john z,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 06:19:34
Assuming the nu labour thought police don't change the law to prevent it, it really will be interesting to see the official documents in 30 years time.

In the Westminster bubble, you see, they have a different perspective to that of most scots. In London, it is all about preserving and protecting the 'uk' economy. If you look at the DBS from that perspective, then the Dunfermline Building Scoiety isn't worthy of your time. It is an inconsequential wee mutual, in a remote region of 'the uk'.

And that is the problem. This is exactly why Scotland should run its own affairs. The Scottish Government and other financial backers were ready to save the DBS, but were not allowed to do so, by 'uk ministers'.

To those in the Westminster political bubble, Scotland is just an insignificant wee part of the country, and hardly merits their time.

Scotland needs to stop being a remote region of the UK. Scotland needs to get off its knees and take charge of its own affairs through independence.

A message to the people of Fife; Wake up would you, and stop voting for these London labour leeches. You are in their backyard, and over the weekend they just sh*t in your face.
23

john z,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 06:25:44
Actually, David Cameron needs to ask more questions on this matter during PMQ's on Wednesday (although it may be off due to G20 nonsense). The tax payer could have saved an awful lot of money to rescue DBS, by looking at the alternative ideas from the Scottish mutual consortium, and the Scottish Government plans.

The Tories in London and the Lib Dems should not let this one go...it shows gross ineptitude from the treasury and Brown/Murphy.
24

jtdx,

31/03/2009 07:27:12
While the FSA might not have done its job properly it is not their fault that DBS went belly-up. It is the DBS boards fault.

Saying its the FSA/Government whatever's fualt is a bit like if someone gets knocked down by a car saying "It was the coppers fault for not stopping me jaywalking".

And #22,#23 the government just dropped a billion pounds into DBS. What scotland needs is competent management in its HQs, not greedy self-serving boards that just try to grow the companies as fast as possible so they can award themselves huge salary packages. I cannot see how an Independent scotland will last more than a couple of months if the aim of the government is to prop up every HQ that is losing BILLIONS of pounds.

And don't try to give me "the oil will pay for it", there just isn't enough money there to prop up all the dead banks. 90% of the tax is paid at the pump, not at the wellhead. So even when scotland is independent most of the tax from petrol will still go to westminster. There will have to more to an independent scotland than
plan a) pump up free money from the north sea
plan b) let free money blow in from the wind using windmills to generate electricity
plan c) let free money wash in from the sea using waves to generate electricity
plan d) like c, but use tides instead of waves
[of course plan c and plan d need hardware that cannot even be built yet, but that doesn't seem to stop the dream].
25

puskas,

East kilbride 31/03/2009 07:28:08
Surely talks behind closed doors has being going on for sometime with Nationwide. This didn't happen overnight.

No20. I agree with your way of thinking.

Lets have no doubt Brown is a traitor to Scotland along with every Labour MP at Westminster. ( include unionist MSP's )
We have not heard the last of this action from Westminster. Only 24hrs have past since this forced adoption much has still to come out.
26

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 07:29:11
Good to see the nats on here scrabbling around desperatley trying to lay the blame for the catastrophic errors made by the DBS anywhere but where it should be: with those who took the decision to make a series of reckless and ill-judged loans.
Why the nats assume that anybody would take what they have to say seriously after the Alex Neil HBOS pantomime only goes to show how delusional these nutty nats really are.
27

puskas,

East kilbride 31/03/2009 07:31:15
No 25.... Similar to many of the unionist posts on these topics
28

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 31/03/2009 07:35:01
Do we need to rebuild Hadrian's wall and Offa's dyke? The Nationalist nutters make you want to leave them to their own devices, the list of such devices obviously doesn't include a calculator, or a pencil, or paper.
29

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 07:35:26
Gordon Brown is making great play of the DBS brought this upon themselves.That is possibly correct. However the question every Scot MUST ask (excluding Rufarse Firefly sized brain)is why was the bid blocked and there can be only one possible answer!The government favoured the removal of the DBS Scottish identity.

This was yet another enforced removal of a Scottish financial sector institution and there may yet be many more closures in Scotland under this government.
This is NOT ABOVE BOARD and anyone who says it is is an idiot.The most senior management at DBS have confirmed they never heard about this bid until it was too late and the consortium confirm that the bid was made.

WE ARE BOUGHT AND SOLD FOR WESTMINSTER GOLD SIC A PARCEL O ROGUES IN A NATIONWIDE
30

puskas,

East kilbride 31/03/2009 07:36:09
Pantomine posts seem to be a pastime for Grahamski.

The truth will out...
31

Mainstreet,

Dunfermline 31/03/2009 07:38:30
Scotland has now a trio of Banking disasters, RBS, HBOS and now the Dunfermline. It is impossible that our country with so litttle industry can generate the capital to extract these banks from their debt. It is ridiculous for these racially motivated screams which we see in these columns against Westminster to have any credence. We need to examine our economy. And remember Alex Salmond was an economist with RBS.
32

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 07:46:14
32
The truth indeed will out: would you like to start with the lies peddled by Mr Neil regarding HBOS? Or perhaps the thinly-veiled racism from Mr Salmond's wrong-headed explanation of London 'spivs' being responsible for the demise of 'sound' Scottish banks?
33

yockel,

31/03/2009 07:54:20
One positive for the realists, which seems to have slipped beneath most folk's radar is that the Treasury are now classifying "UK buy to let" as "toxic sub-prime."
That should give the economy a boost!
34

townplanner,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 07:58:42
Dear Sirs,

It is with dismay that I read of the latest desecration of another Scottish company, the Dunfermline Building Society. Those blinded by the Anglophillia that permeates our country like an aggressive cancer repeatedly deliver the agreed message of “rescue” and “saving branch jobs” at every opportunity.

But what about the transfer of head office functions to another country (again)? What about the high order jobs and professional advisers no longer needed to service head offices? What about the substantial contributions made by indigenous companies to our charities, arts and community organisations? What about the support provided to new companies by institutions on the basis of ‘local’ knowledge? What about the simple pride of a town like Dunfermline in its institution?

Surely the benefits of retaining an independent Dunfermline are worth £25m?

Conveniently, these questions will not be asked by the clique of weasels within Labour, the BBC or our complicit print media.

Couldn’t the Scottish Building Society have had some part to play in finding a solution and retain high order jobs? Of course, those on message know that anything Scottish is too small and ‘big’ is the only acceptable solution. Just like Lehman Brothers, AIG, Lloyds et al. Just as ‘big’ countries like the UK and US are the only ones able to survive the economic downturn.

35

livilion,

livingston 31/03/2009 08:05:49
#35 Grahamski,Falkirk

Oh well, when you put it like that, it's no wonder that No10 have taken the huff and are hell-bent on getting rid of the Scottish financial institutions.

They've already lost the next general election and if they can't have Scotland it looks to me like they're gonna slash&burn to make sure no-one else will want it. Teach those chippy Jocks a lesson.
36

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 08:08:26
33
RBS is a Scottish HQ banking group, but has interests world wide so the responsibility would have fallen on at least both governments presumably,had Scotland been independent,or have you never heard of National Westminster Bank not to mention a few other RBS group household names ?
B of S was part of HBOS ( taken over by Halifax Building Society)It was Halifax who had the "expertise"
in the mortgage sector supposedly!
Again both governments would have had to deal with this since it is not confined to Scotland.They have offices in Northern Ireland and Wales also and primarily operate in England(you may have heard of it)and customers at least this far afield.

The Dunfermline BS however I accept was a truly Scottish identity and probably has few if any interests further afield.There is nothing to suggest that a Scottish government would have allowed a bid from Scotland to be ignored so the Dunfermline would have been secured.

Your comments conveniently assume what is not correct.
37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 08:08:35
38
Taken the huff?
The UK has rescued HBOS, RBS and DBS - something an independent Scotland would have been incapabable of doing. And that's taking the huff?
You, quite frankly are delusional.
38

bonhommedubois,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 08:09:38
Strange that this alternative bid was not known about by some on the DBS board.

And Mr Willens is ex-Nationwide?




39

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 08:10:30
39
Are you seriously suggesting that the UK would have bailed out the RBS if Scotland was independent?
Are you mental?
40

,

31/03/2009 08:14:14
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41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 08:15:13
44
Oh lummy, the nats have finally cracked and have gone feral. Women and children first!
42

Phil C,

31/03/2009 08:17:09
This saga continues the Labour sponsored rape and pillage of Scotland's financial assets. Their policy has deliberately weakened Scotland's economy, solely for political reasons. These 'dead duck' institutions will recover and the benefit will go to England!

As has been called for umpteen times, it's time for the Scottish Government to start a new independent Bank of Scotland, and maybe a Scottish Building Society. I'd support them, as I'm sure would millions of others. The grumpy old onionists could do their own traiterous thing and support the english banks, just like the Labour Party has done.
43

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:18:17
Grahamski

Plkease stop this RBS argument. The RBS was as Scottish as Woolworths was British and Coca Cola is American. It's a global entity visible in 33 countries across the globe employing 130,000 or so people.

As it happens, the RBS was regulated by "UK" financial regulations, something in an independent Scotland would not have happened i.e. we would have to have our own financial regulations in place.

Now, I grant you there may have been a possibility that it still could've gone t*ts up under Scottish financial regulation but the impact would be localised and maybe not as far fetching.

However, stop the lies please. The RBS is global and was goiverned by UK financial regulation, something that would not have happaned in an independent Scotland.

BTW, what does the H stand for in HBOS?
44

Gdgy,

dundy 31/03/2009 08:18:41
So an attempt to take over the DBS was "blocked" several times...could that also be "unsuccessful"?
AS in a "crep" offer....
But that wouldn't stir so much Shitt...
45

,

31/03/2009 08:19:21
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46

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 08:20:16
42 Are you admitting that the England Wales and Northern Ireland Westminster parliament would have let jobs in England wales and Northern Ireland go under ?


Well well well. I hope you are paying attention WALES NORTHERN IRELAND and ENGLAND.
THAT IS WHAT HE SAID !
47

yockel,

31/03/2009 08:20:39
"a pledge to keep branch staff in jobs for at least three years was critical for the Government"

That's convenient, big job cuts in Scotland not too long before a General Election in which Labour will be in opposition.
48

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:21:00
Gdgy

I very much doubt this tabloid would report it as such i.e. "unsuccessful" etc. It appears the Hootmon has stumbled upon truthful reporting.
49

yockel,

31/03/2009 08:25:08
sm753 #46. Can you explain why a healthy BS needs 1.6billion to assume the good assets of a competitor?

This has got to be a bailout of the Nationwide using DBS assets.
50

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 08:26:00
48
"As it happens, the RBS was regulated by "UK" financial regulations, something in an independent Scotland would not have happened i.e. we would have to have our own financial regulations in place."

Mr Salmond called for even less financial regulation. Your naive belief in an independent la la land is charming but ultimately infantile. Do grow up.
51

Iain's,

31/03/2009 08:31:40
The Nationwide is the Co-op Building Society.

The Co-op subsidises lots of Labour MPs.

Dunfermline voted in a Lib Dem MP.

No surprise there then!


Beware the WRATH OF BROON!
52

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:33:20
Mr Salmond called for even less financial regulation. (Grayhamsick)

What Mr. Salmond wants and what the people of Scotland want are not necessarily synonymous. As you yourself are keen to point out, ad nauseaum, he wants independence, the majority don't.

Your opinion alters daily unlike a child who tends to show consistency in needs and wants.
53

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:33:48
55

He called for it, but since you are creating a la la land yourself by your speculation, perhaps you should pull your own trousers up and move on?

BTW, since the SNP are failures in your eyes and Labour complete sleazy failures in everybodies eyes as reported, to whom to you lend your support now?
54

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:35:16
Oh lummy, the nats have finally cracked and have gone feral. 9Grayhamsick)

"oh lummy" is an old fashioned phrase not used by Scots. Got an explantion for that, you phony?
55

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:37:16

The truth indeed will out: (Grayhamsick)

Not with Scotland haters like you around.
56

puskas,

East kilbride 31/03/2009 08:39:39
No 35.

In reply to spivs... Gordon Brown our world renowned saviour of the world.?
It seems your glorious leader is beyond redemption in your eyes. If not yourself many treble posters on these sites.

Hi, maybe your one of them.?
57

Pip10,

Yockel 20 31/03/2009 08:39:46
I haven't read all the post here, but Y20 has picked up on something I noticed, i.e. the debt Dunfermline bought was UK borrowing, not US borrowing, just administered by a UK subsidiary of a US bank. Admidittedly GMAC did a lot of the impaired credit and self cert stuff, but don't forget it was all backed by property as security and I would have thought DBS bought it for a discount/good price from GMAC. It could well be therefore that DBS are correct when they say the problem was short term liquidity for them (The credit crunch). The commercial lending to buy properties in the North is a sepereate issue, but again it is secured on land and buildings and the question to some extent is what was the LTV? If it was under 60%, that's not too bad.
I'm not saying DBS were not at fault, what I am saying is we are NOT getting the full picture and Y20's suspicions are just as valid as other posters on this blog.
One day we might know the truth, but by the time we do it will be too late.............
58

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 08:42:14
59
"oh lummy" is an old fashioned phrase not used by Scots.
Parochial? You?
59

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:46:42
Parochial? You? (Grayhamsick)

You are.

You see Scotland as a province of England.

I log on to read an important story and opinion and all I get is you spouting hatred for Scotland and sneering at the electorate. How do you communicate with people when the website isn't here?
60

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:46:55
63

As parochial as a Cockney. Can't remember that last time I heard a Diamond Geezer using "Jings Help Ma Boab"...
61

puskas,

East kilbride 31/03/2009 08:49:45
No 57 Los Angeles..

Quite cutting in your last sentence ? ..Re Grahamaski

Lets face with this gentlemans posts it seems dementia may be at work. Sadly, maybe worst a Foulke-sake troll.

62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:50:42
Lovely Jubbly....

Oops, parochial.....
63

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:51:05
It could well be therefore that DBS are correct when they say the problem was short term liquidity for them (The credit crunch). (Pip10)

It was exactly that. mortgage lending has colapsed; the income DBS needed fdried up.

What we are seeing is the wholesale raid of Scottish financial institutions by a predatory UK Government and its lackeys - an inevitability in a global market weakened by chronic greed and delusional accounting.

Protectionism is on its way big time.

64

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:51:31
I say, that's just not cricket, what?

oops, colonial.....
65

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 08:52:30
I'm taking your land and artifacts by force but will introduce democracy.

ooops, imperial.....
66

BIG EYE,

Paisley 31/03/2009 08:53:23
Yockel at 20 and 54 has the key question.

According to the Guardian newspaper (not SNP although probably more so than the Scottish media) the Nationwide was experiencing severe problems as well.

No matter what bad assets Dunfermline had, many of them had the potential to be realised when the current Brown inspired crisis improved. Independent assessment by KPMG estimated that the DBS needed between £30-60 million.

How then did the Nationwide need £1.6 BILLION pounds to takeover the GOOD assets of the DBS?

This looks like a bailout of Labour's favourite Building Society through the convenient vehicle of a small Scottish building society.

It STINKS to high heaven..just like the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party
67

Calgacas,

Moray 31/03/2009 08:54:13
With his expense claims again the highest in the country, could the MP for Falkirk by the name of Joyce not bail them out. What marks out of ten would we receive for guessing which party he belongs to. I did not realise Falkirk was further from London than any other Scottish constituency, which of course could be the only reason to genuinely justify such claims.

68

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 08:56:56

We cannot jail people for incompetency unless they cause death or injury, but we can jail for greed and criminal activity.

Unfortunately it does little good.

While the scumbags of Enron were getting twenty years apiece Bernie Madoff continued cheating people of their savings to the tune of billions, and our financial institutions continued saying the value in their head was the real value of everything.

Perhaps time in a mental institution is what the need.


69

gus1940,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 09:02:16
The smell emanating from this latest scandal is even greater than that from the forced takeover of HBOS.

How is it that our Labour government can come along to a mutual society and without consulting its members or management (before the accounts are actually published) grab the society and GIVE the good bits to the Nationwide (of course the DBS CEO came from The Nationwide only 3 months ago)?

I see from the above article that "The Nationwide will BUY its branches, good loans and deposits" Does this mean that The Nationwide will be handing over money for these? If so to whom - The Labour Government or The Members of The DBS? This is the first mention of the word buy as regards what The Nationwide is getting. I would be interested in finding out how much they will be paying for my money which as a member is invested with DBS or will the members be fobbed off with the usual answer that 'it is commercially confidential'.

Still not a peep or sqeak from Gray.

Is there no depth to which Culpability Brown and his band of quislings will descend to destroy Scotland's finacial institutions.
70

Faultserver,

Barbados 31/03/2009 09:03:09
I see KPMG are getting to make money from the sell off of the commercial loans. Interesting after their part in the "new" IT system costing 8 million that took years to develop and I don't think ever worked properly.
71

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:04:47
"What I can say absolutely 100 per cent is that any proposition or proposal put to the society was looked at thoroughly and immediately." (Willens Ex-DBS CEO)

Clearly it was NOT.

It is the equivalent of saying, Joe Shmo's call was logged but being Joe Shmo we didn't think it advantageous to answer him.

72

Number 6,

Germany 31/03/2009 09:06:56
Clearly, both the Board and the hopeless FSA are to blame here. What's very disturbing is that an attempt at a Scottish solution was blocked.

This is Brown and Darling again trying desperatley to give the impression that the Scottish economy can't look after its self.

Only the thickest of the unionista flock will fall for that.
73

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:14:13

Only the thickest of the unionista flock will fall for that. (No6)

So thick they are cheering while the postman brings them their massively hiked tax bill, and Nationwide posts a loss of £500 million - a company destined to go under and be divided amongst overseas institutions.

The competition our leaders crowed was so important for our financial health has been, in the end, ruinous.





74

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 31/03/2009 09:16:31
The Labour spin machine is on full steam now, slurring the management of DBS at every opportunity. "bad management", "bad mangement", "bad management".

This behaviour is disgracefull - what about the recent "bad management" decisions of the Llyods board, the FSA and of course, the man currently at the helm of the titanitc, Captain Pugwash Brown himself?
75

noswod,

Noswod 31/03/2009 09:19:30
Nay chance Orr a Scottish solution when the treasury is involved having destroyed Scotlands independant banking sector noo frae the Build Societys. Although the bail oot by todays standards was sma only £1.6bn, £320 per Scotsman or 4.8% of the Governments budget. Wee Ecky, the elite bank economist, when faced with the hardmen O the treasury foon great difficultly when confronted with civil servants that can add up - nay chance O a bail oot Jimmy. Did you know that Falkirk is further away from WhiteHa than Orkney & Shetland, than if you believe MP's expenses claims. It costs £187,334 frae a Falkirk MP (No1 on list of all MP's)compared tae £176,190 frae an MP frae Shetland (no 3 on list). Overal its guid tae see that the dependence culture is still alive and kicking with all three top places in the MP's expenses list taken by Scots MP's, can the MSP's do better ?
76

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:29:37
Because the FSA and Treasury have been looking at DBS' accounts since last October, knew that it was deep in the smelly (Sm and numbers)

So, the UK Government are even more culpable. They did not investigate other solutions available.

Ever applied for a job only to see it go to a less qualified person because interviews were fixed?


77

BIG EYE,

Paisley 31/03/2009 09:31:02
81

You really are a star aren't you.

As Nationwide inherited only the good assets, these good assets make a financial contribution (repayment of loans) which covers any interest payable on deposits (at current interest rates this is negligible).

So according to your understanding of banking and economics you think we should all feel sorry for the Nationwide because they now find themselves "burdened" by the DBS depositers money.

Also as you seem to consider savers money a liability would not the bank be better off if nobody saved (thus reducing liabilities). I used to wonder why you were so keen on the Union now I know!
78

yockel,

31/03/2009 09:31:45
sm753 #81 Ha ha aha ha. Good one, almost good enough for Gordo to use.

Loans = cash flow which the Nationwide needs

Pay interest on deposits, which planet are you on?

So the liabilities are greater than the assets i.e deposits are greater than the loans, where are these surplus deposits? Are you really saying there is 1.6 billion of Dunfermline deposits needing immediate cover or do you just not understand how politics works?

Fair enough the deposits might possibly need to be repaid.
Run on the Nationwide anyone?
79

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:33:10
Which ruled out mucking around with dodgy non-credible consortia of wee fund managers. (Sm and numbers)

More sneering at Scotland and the electorate.
80

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 09:37:26
(#79) – (Los Angeles) – Am I right you were not in favour of the Scottish government bailing them out either?
81

Rosscobhoy,

31/03/2009 09:39:20
#42

I refer you to Holland, Belgium and Luxemburg. Fortis i think is the bank THEY all bailed out. For some reason most Unionists seem to think Independence would mean a complete end to all trade between the countries.
82

Noodle doodle,

31/03/2009 09:39:28
given the effect the 'rescue' of hbos has had on lloyds, it was probably he correct piece of meddling to stop the scottish friendly getting too close to the dunfermline... if they'd took it over then they'd have took it over toxic debts and all.
83

Ananurhing,

31/03/2009 09:40:45
If this decision was made based on the inaccuracies/untruths emanating from Darling at the weekend, and repeated parrot fashion by Scottish Labour's "walking boss" Murphy, then no one can be blamed for thinking this is part of Broon's "whatever it takes" scorched earth policy on Scottish institutions and their HQs.
84

Denis,

31/03/2009 09:42:40
# 56 - Iain's - "The Nationwide is the Co-op Building Society."

No it isn't, it's a mutual building society, just like Dunfermline.
85

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:44:15

The British Prime Minister announces that Scotland will be integrated with England.

"We discovered late last year that our funds were low, and indeed income was not meeting expenditure, so we felt it imperative to subsume Scotland into our country, leaving the bad bits behind: haggis, Glasgow on a Friday Night, Sydney Devine, Edinburgh's dress sense, and distribute the good bits, Loch Lomond, the Highlands, medical discoveries, whisky distilleries, and all funds, to various needy people and companies in England.

We had a call from the Orkneys to buy Scotland but we judged it competition we did not want."

86

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 09:45:01
(#84) – (Los Angeles) – Are the UK government culpable then for saving the Scottish government from much embarrassment by stopping them from handing out Scottish tax payers money to the DBS?

Did the Scottish government actually know it was unlikely they would be handing out any money?
87

Denis,

31/03/2009 09:47:14
# 10 Los Angeles - But Bradford & Bingley no longer exists as an independent bank; it is now little more than a name which is still on some branches of Santander, for the time being:

http://www.bradford-bingley.co.uk/

"Bradford & Bingley savers are now part of Abbey, and together we are part of Santander"

# 86 yokel -

Nationwide has been more cautious and is still sound. However given a few more years and the madness which started in the banks (eg Bradford & Bingley) and spread into the mutuals (eg Dunfermline) might have infected Nationwide as well and brought it down.

I don't know whether either the England-based Bradford & Bingley or the Scotland-based Dunfermline was really "viable", or whether the procedure which had been hastily devised for the first should have been applied to the second, but it is basically the same procedure - shut it down, break it up, taxpayer takes on the bad bits, and taxpayer gives money to some other, stronger, organisation to take on the good bits and keep them running.

# 39 morris - This article, dated March 27th, came my way this morning:

http://www.propertyweek.com/st ory.asp?sectioncode=36&storycode=3137153&c=1

"Dunfermline, the ailing Scottish building society, is suing US insurer AIG over £2m of failed loan payments for a £100m residential scheme in Reading."

"... after Highmore Homes went into administration, it was unable to make the payments - and so, as guarantor, responsibility fell to AIG."

Dunfermline had taken the precaution of buying insurance to guarantee the loan repayments, and they did that with the world's largest, rock solid, insurance company.

They weren't to know that its management had decided that insurance was too boring and so decided to turn it into an engine for speculation in complex derivatives - why should they be expected to know that, when the US regulators apparently didn't know (or didn't want to say)?

Eventually it may become clear whether Dunferm
88

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:47:52
Don't know about me being a "star", but BIG EYE and yockel have just proved themselves to be morons. (SM and numbers)

Why don't you just say what's on your mind, that you detest Scotland and all in it?

All this obfuscation, pretendy argument, rants, antagonism, abuse, it's a waste of you time and ours, but above all, thoroughly dishonest.

Just say, "You all suck!"

And then run for your life.



89

Denis,

31/03/2009 09:48:33
contd...

Eventually it may become clear whether Dunfermline was "viable", or whether its losses would have been too great and it was a hopeless case.
90

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 31/03/2009 09:48:54
THE GREEDY LONDON SCUM HAVE DECLARED WAR ON HOLYROOD.

HOLYROOD MAY BE BATTERED NOW,BUT SHE WILL WIN THE WAR.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
91

Rasco,

31/03/2009 09:49:15
Jim Willens chief executive will resign but don't forget he was a member of the board of Nationwide before,Jim Faulds chairman only knew about Friendly offer on Thursday he says surely all the board should have known,not saying anything dodgy but I only wish we had some independent enquiry into it all.
92

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:50:00
Are the UK government culpable? (Randall's Scandal)

For everything, yes.




93

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 09:50:39
(#94) – (Los Angeles) – Isn’t that nursery missing its teacher at story time?
94

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:50:59

Jim Willens chief executive will resign but don't forget he was a member of the board of Nationwide. (rasco)

I smell a rat!!!
95

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:52:18
Isn’t that nursery missing its teacher at story time? (Randall's Scandal)

Isn't the aslyum missing its guinea pig?

96

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 09:57:36
Dunfermline had taken the precaution of buying insurance to guarantee the loan repayments, and they did that with the world's largest, rock solid, insurance company. They weren't to know that its management had decided that insurance was too boring and so decided to turn it into an engine for speculation in complex derivatives - why should they be expected to know that, when the US regulators apparently didn't know (or didn't want to say)? (Denis)

Excellent points.

97

yockel,

31/03/2009 09:59:07
sadomasochism753 #92

Boo hoo, now you've hurt my feelings.

Oh, you are just sooo Labour.
98

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 10:02:13
(#97) – (Los Angeles) – Do you believe poor grammar in a teacher makes them a poor example to children?
99

!Ya basta!,

31/03/2009 10:03:28
I don't understand the figures. How can such a tiny operation need a 1.6Billion pound bailout?

Why so much? And why do we have to bail it out anyway, nobody will really notice if it goes bust.

Again I have to make the point about our upside down world. The UK governemnt easily and quickly finds 1.6B for the DBS yet Scottish local government as a whole is being asked to reduce its budget by 1.3M by cutting services. What is more important?

This is all very very wrong.

#17. The biggest story that smells funny is why all this public money is being pumped into the financial sector and exactly where it is going. The money we are talking about globally could pay off 3rd world debt multiple times over, be used to do something singificant about environmental damage, improve education, health etc beyond our wildest dreams an dstill with some left over. There is something very very fishy about the almost complete lack of debate on whether all these bailouts are really in the public interest or just redirecting even more money to the global elite.

One thing is for sure. If these bailout strategies fail and jobs and service don't improve, there is a chance of widespread violent protest against our upside down system.


100

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:06:23
Do you believe poor grammar in a teacher makes them a poor example to children? (Randall's Scandal)

Do you believe incessant spurious questions waste a website's bandwith and bloggers time?

101

weh,

31/03/2009 10:06:28
London Labour. They sacrifice Scottish institutions to make us feel helpless.

Many people know who Gordon's masters are and why he is a traitor to his homeland."

Couldnt agree more, Statesman!

At LONG last he scales are finally dropping from the Scots eyes, as to how we have been manipulated by traitors and quislings for the last century, all to the SOLE purpose of keeping us in this accursed "union" for one purpose only-and that is to ROB us of all our assets, manpower and natural resources!

And, for heavens sake, HOW successful THEY have been in this endeavour! We are now the poorest "nation" in the western world as we speak, and we have NO free press or TV-just Labour handouts regurgitated!
102

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 10:09:24
(#104) – (Los Angeles) – The asylum might be missing its guinea pig but I bet you don’t miss the asylum?
103

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 31/03/2009 10:09:46
Wonder how many Norways bank have gone to the wall? Just a thought.
104

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:10:04
One thing is for sure. If these bailout strategies fail and jobs and service don't improve, there is a chance of widespread violent protest against our upside down system. (Ya Basta!)

Chance? Chance would be a fine thing. They are mobilising at the G20 summit now.

105

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:11:35
The asylum might be missing its guinea pig but I bet you don’t miss the asylum? (Randall's Scandal)

That one fell flat, didn't it?




106

Rab haw,

31/03/2009 10:12:27
This is simple asset stripping by a group who are looking after their own future when the electorate dump them . Brown and Darling will be proved no better than Fred the shred when it comes to looking after their own interests.
107

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:15:14
Wonder how many Norways bank have gone to the wall? Just a thought. (MacBeth)

None, a far as I can tell.

Brown must be the most hated man in Britain. An avid, rampant Unionist doing the work of the British Establishment and they are going to hang his reputation just the same.

Goes to show, even when you sacrifice all to demonstrate allegiance they still won't let you join the club.

108

danbob,

31/03/2009 10:16:29
110# Get a grip on reality. The three biggest casualties of this credit crunch the RBS, HBOS, and now DBS are all scottish. The whole sorry UK mess has been created by a scottish prime minister ex chancellor. The fact is this fella, everything scottish at the moment turns to rat sh**. Stop dreaming that an independent Scotland would be utopia. You would be bust. Christ I have even just had a begging letter from the paddle steamer Waverley preservation society. When does it end?
109

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:19:03


To anticipate the obsessive compulsive inanity of Randall Scandal:

"Is being the most hated necessarily an issue for hanging?"


110

G,

dundee 31/03/2009 10:20:23
Obviously this is all Labour's fault....they are in government so anything that goes wrong is their fault (even if there is no evidence of any wrong-doing...i.e. the "blocked" bid..)
Funny that nothing in Scotland is the SNP's fault even though they are in government...double standards or blind faith.....
111

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:20:43
Got it yet? Simple. Got it yet? (Sado Masochist)

Whenever I see those words and phrases I know the writer is an arrogant oik.
112

Rab haw,

31/03/2009 10:21:10
Danbob being Scottish does not stop them from being Unionist run old boy.
113

Publius,

London 31/03/2009 10:22:06
Don't know about the nats on this board, but I've got savings in the Dunfermline. I put money in the Dunfermline because I thought it was safe, boring and Scottish - and it would help our young folk to buy houses. I feel BETRAYED by Dunfermline's management. They were supposed to behave like a mutually owned building society, not a dodgy investment bank.
There was no other viable solution to the one found at the weekend. Scottish Friendly doesn't have enough money to cover Dunfermline's liabilities - and we don't even know who eslse was in the so-called consortium. If nothing had been done at the weekend, the doors of the Dunfermline would have been closed on Monday morning.


114

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:22:15
Funny that nothing in Scotland is the SNP's fault (Gee in Dundee)

Wrong. We often underestimte the depths to which the opposition will stoop to undermine an elected government.
115

It's me!,

31/03/2009 10:23:29
Incompetent board of DBS directors and a Labour government that sees yet another way to prevent Scottish independence by divesting Scotland of a financial institution leaving the wealth and power in England. What I want to know however is what criminal action is being taken against the directors of the building firm that took DBS money and where is that money now. Is it in the directors wallets, wife's name, off shore accounts etc etc. I have had too many official dealings with company directors to believe it all went on building materials and labour.
116

Rab haw,

31/03/2009 10:23:57
sm753 regarding self delusional paranoiacs, self loathing is a terrible state I advise you get another life.
117

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:25:41


No, I only detest morons and delusional paranoiacs. (Sado Mochist)

I have no idea how you manage to live with yourself.

118

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:27:29
I feel BETRAYED by Dunfermline's management. (Publius)

I feel BETRAYED by Westminster's politicians.

119

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 10:34:30
(#109) – (Los Angeles) – Can you please repeat this one and make it legible?
(#114) – (Los Angeles) – Is that a plea from you?



(#116)- (Los Angeles) – Did you know that the Norwegian sovereign fund lost about ten years worth of investment with observers suggesting they would have made more from their money if they had put it in the bank?

Do you not think that in England when people look at Gordon Brown all they see is a Scot?
(#119) – (Los Angeles) – “obsessive compulsive”

Do you realize you keep on saying that over and over again?

Why don’t you try anticipating that?
120

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 10:36:27
"Do you believe poor grammar in a teacher makes them a poor example to children?"

Why do you use the plural "them" if you are talking about a (singular) teacher?
121

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 10:38:35
Did Teacher lose his temper too often with his pupils is that why he had to leave the profession?
122

,

31/03/2009 10:39:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

danbob,

31/03/2009 10:39:56
123# Absolute cra* and you know it. Not one decision was made on the basis of the union. What happened is greed, greed, and more greed. But what's more I bet the majority of anti union posters on here were happy to buy into the myth when the good times seemed to roll on and on. There was a time I would have bought into the idea of an independent Scotland. However we even have one intelligent SNP poster on here telling everybody to take their money out of the DBS as a protest at this take over. What a prospect for Scotland should brainless sentimental fools like that take charge. Really scary.
124

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 10:41:14
"Did Teacher lose his temper too often with his pupils is that why he had to leave the profession?"

Correction ...

Did Teacher lose his temper too often with his pupils? Is that why he had to leave the profession?"

Sorted.
125

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:43:12

Do you realize you keep on saying that over and over again? (Randall's Scandal)

Do you realise you have an uncontrollable temper?
Do you realise you are patronising people by endlessly questioning their ability to analyse in their own way?
Do you realise endless questions are akin to a small boy tugging at his mother's skirt?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Do you realise you spell "realize" the American way?




126

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 10:52:18
There was a time I would have bought into the idea of an independent Scotland. (Danbob)

Is this Bluff 24b - claim you would have voted SNP were it not for the idiots in the SNP?

Kind of contradictory, is it not.

I'd have joined the RAC Club in London if only I liked motor cars.


127

awhl,

31/03/2009 11:03:17
How has this become a nationalist issue. These jokers are spread across the world, they have recklessly spent our money and we are now having to bale them out in a frantic attempt to prevent the world descending into chaos. I for one can't believe these investments (so called) were made legally blaming the FSA for incompetence is a bit like blaming the police for crime. We need to put some serious money and resources into bringing these people before the courts.
How can Nationalists be expected to be taken seriously when they view everything through an old emnity.
Any one on these pages never heard of the Darien disaster?
128

bluehead,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 11:05:15
it seems like the gruesome twosome are at it again,brown and his accomplice will do anything they can to put a spoke in the progress of Scotland,it is hard to believe that this pair ,brown! and darling,! can
lay claim to being Scottish after their treachery in the business of the Scottish banks,this latest case is beyond believe,
it is becoming increasingly clear that nothing is safe while these pair are around they are trying to destroy this land that was wonderful until this labour pile started mucking it about,and as for this murphy guy,who appears to be the secretary for "what a state we are in" scotland,he is as bad as the other pair,
if that lot had been around when sir William Wallace was around they would have been flayed alive for their treachery,
what a sickening mob !!!!!
129

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 11:09:23


The Union is a figment of the British Establishments imagination. In reality it is the domination of one nation upon another.




130

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 11:12:30
than the British use (Sado Masochist)

Which Briton? Somerzet? Gloucezter? Zackspeare? And which Norman?



131

Denis,

31/03/2009 11:13:22
# 108 !Ya Basta! - "How can such a tiny operation need a 1.6Billion pound bailout?"

Dunfermline is only "tiny" in comparison with the mega-banks like RBS.

RBS has about £2,200 billion on its balance sheet - £2,200 billion of liabilities, and £2,200 billion of assets, on paper - £800 billion larger than the UK GDP.

But of those assets, about £540 billion are "troubled", of which £325 billion have been "insured" by Darling for a ridiculously low "premium": .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4838590/Taxpayers-face-owning-90pc-of-RBS-after-25bn-capital-injection.html

So if those insured "toxic assets" turn out to be worth less than 87 pence in the pound of their previous book value, RBS can claim against the taxpayer for 90% of the shortfall - which could easily cost us £100 billion.

In comparison, Dunfermline has about £3 billion on its balance sheet, but once again some of the assets are not worth their book value.

Eg, it's impossible to say how much of the money lent for a property development in Reading:

http://www.propertyweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=36&storycode=3137153&c=1

will ever be recovered, and that alone is getting on for £100 million - much bigger than the projected £20 million loss for the year, allegedly the small sum needed to save the society which could easily have been found in one way or another, etc etc, except the London government is determined to destroy this Scottish institution, etc etc.

It may be that this £100 million in Reading, and the £20 million in Lancashire, really are "typical of about £800 million of investments made by the Dunfermline", in which case its assets could fall short of its liabilities by hundreds of millions, not tens of millions.

Nationwide has taken on £2.4 billion of liabilities, money owed to depositors, and some of the more reliable assets; the £1.6 billion is to make up the difference between the value of the liabilities assumed, and the likely va
132

The Tin Man,

31/03/2009 11:13:39
#140 awhl

Everything is a 'nationalist issue' to people who have their heads firmly wedged in the dark hole of patriotism.
133

Denis,

31/03/2009 11:15:03
Contd ..

Nationwide has taken on £2.4 billion of liabilities, money owed to depositors, and some of the more reliable assets; the £1.6 billion is to make up the difference between the value of the liabilities assumed, and the likely value of the assets acquired.

I don't know for certain whether this deal will turn out to be good, neutral or poor from Nationwide's point of view, and nor does anybody else posting here.
134

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 11:15:56
Big Eye (71): "No matter what bad assets Dunfermline had, many of them had the potential to be realised when the current Brown inspired crisis improved."

Many of them are corporate loans, for which the default rate is always high. It's for this reason the UK taxpayer has had to assume roughly £1 bn of them -- they're unsaleable otherwise.

"How then did the Nationwide need £1.6 BILLION pounds to takeover the GOOD assets of the DBS?""

Because Nationwide has taken on assets and LIABILITIES. In other words, the £2.4 bn of savings, some £1.6 bn had been spent by DBS on risky loans. in other words, the UK taxpayer is supporting the DBS depositors.
135

AJM,

31/03/2009 11:21:35
#138 Ghostshirt, thanks for getting the daily conversion story out of the way. Your only problem with this article is that it is not an issue of political consequences.

The nonsense of this "conversion" is clear when you remember that AS said many times yesterday that he welcomed the take over by Nationwide. So are you off the another party? delusioned again.
136

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 11:22:48


Last year the MPs of the British House of Commons gobbled up £93 million in expense claims.

Will that honourable place be broken up and the best bits dished out to another parliament?



137

AJM,

31/03/2009 11:25:04
As AS welcomed the take over, clearly something all the Nat posters are not happy with to put it mildly. Will they;

Be asking AS to resign as he is completely out of touch with the rank and file members of the SNP

or

Be off to another seperatist party that more clearly represents their shared sense of victimisation and loathing of anything south of the border.

Clearly AS has sold out once he is in power, typical.
138

,

31/03/2009 11:33:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
139

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 11:41:47
(#136) – (Los Angeles) – What makes you believe I have an uncontrolled temper?

Why do you believe I am being patronising by asking people questions of their own knowledge?

Why should that undermine the ability of someone to analyse in their own way?

Did you endlessly tug at your mother’s skirt?

Does a teacher who can’t grasp the importance of questions undermine the process they are meant to be upholding?

Are you nearly there yet?

You do know that the old rule, and one still largely followed by the OED (as well as American usage) was that words derived from Classical Greek with the letter Zeta in their suffix were rendered “ize” in English?
140

AJM,

31/03/2009 11:43:56
#156 Ghostshirt, perplexing is very mild from AS. Did he not welcome the deal, if he did do you share that sense of welcoming. If you did not is he out of touch with rank and file Nats. It is simple really who has lost it Nat posters or him.
141

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 11:45:33
(#52) - (Los Angeles) - Do you know what delusions of grandeur means?

Do P.E. teachers need to know these things?
142

Rab haw,

31/03/2009 11:48:04
The parasites who have fed their snouts long in the trough are now howling in panic on here, get out and face the truth yer Labour pay offs will dry up soon hahahahahahahah.
143

Brodric,

31/03/2009 11:56:00
Truth is we don't know the truth. So far, each bank bailed out ended up with greater losses than first anticipated. And maybe in a few months, these losses will again be greater than anticipated. We don't know.

It seems likely that all financial institutions were up to their knecks in dodgy dealings to line their pockets, and Dunfermline is one of them.

It just niggles at me that first HBOS and then DBS were rather quickly passed over to other institutions - and Lloyds itself already had a fair whack for both itself and HBOS. Will Nationwide be the next beneficiary.

It niggles me further that, here we are in a crisis and all the Westminster politicians can do is to carry on with their electioneering policies for the 'future'. If they don't pull together what is that future going to be. And it niggles me that because of this party political electioneering, that maybe, just maybe, this crisis has given Labour a great opportunity to weaken Scotland's position for any future go at independence.

Where is the truth and transparency? Yours well niggled.
144

AJM,

31/03/2009 12:01:17
#164 If I was "flogging dead horse" how come you chose to ignore and gave some waffle about him being a bit clever. May I remind you that he was very vocal about HBoS deal with LLoydsTSB. So how is welcoming the deal when his party supporters angrily oppose it, being a "too clever"?

He is clearly tacking the opposite line to all the NA posters on here, he is welcoming the deal with Nationwide. There is claerly a gulf between the two opinions.
145

Denis,

31/03/2009 12:04:29
Personally I don't think that applying the Bradford & Bingley "solution" to Dunfermline was necessarily the best course of action.

Think about it -

Last week Dunfermline had liabilities - mainly money owed to its depositors - and assets - some "good", and some "bad", which would probably have left it hundreds of millions short.

Now, the taxpayer owns the "bad" assets, Nationwide has assumed all (or most of) the liabilities, and has acquired the "good" assets, and has been given £1.6 billion by the taxpayer to make up the difference.

An alternative scenario would have been this: the taxpayer owns the "bad" assets, Dunfermline still has all the liabilities and all the rest of the assets, and has been given £1.6 billion by the taxpayer.

From the taxpayer's point of view, in either case the net effect would be £1.6 billion handed over in exchange for Dunfermline's "bad" assets, which will almost certainly turn out to be worth a lot less than £1.6 billion; but the second solution would have left Dunfermline as a separate society, rather than as part of Nationwide.

It may be that there isn't yet any legal mechanism for the Treasury to just buy the "bad" assets of a bank or building society, without first seizing it and breaking it up.

Or it may be that, with help from the SNP, Dunfermline's Chairman Jim Faulds actually ensured its demise, by making misleading, highly politicised, public statements about its true position, convincing the FSA and the Treasury that it would be wrong to put in taxpayer's money so that he could continue to mismanage it.
146

St.George,

31/03/2009 12:07:18
LOL,taken over by the Nationwide, "proud sponsers of the England football team"!
147

AJM,

31/03/2009 12:08:59
#170 Denis I think you are right in the last paragraph, there is a case of poor management at the DBS, hence £9.5m write down on a failed IT system.

Without a new managament group taking over the DBS it would have the same management group making the same sort of mistakes.

Hower I have no idea what the rules are.
148

Rab haw,

31/03/2009 12:12:02
What currency has been devalued against the rest ? The Irish are flooding over the border because of the strngth of the Euro against the £, reality is every other country is higher up the arc than us, we are now heading for the pit of poverty ,
149

AJM,

31/03/2009 12:13:58
#171 St George your point is the mindless sort of xenophobia that ocassionally surfaces on here.

Quote from the Nationwide website.

"Nationwide has been a sponsor of football in the UK for over a decade and has agreements with the four home nations.

Nationwide is the Official England, Northern Ireland and Wales Team Sponsor and an Official Partner of the Scotland Team."
150

yockel,

31/03/2009 12:21:23
Denis 170 "which would probably have left it hundreds of millions short."

Where did that come from?

151

yockel,

31/03/2009 12:24:28
Denis are you saying land in England is now worth nothing?
152

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 12:25:16
Denis (170): "An alternative scenario would have been this: the taxpayer owns the "bad" assets, Dunfermline still has all the liabilities and all the rest of the assets, and has been given £1.6 billion by the taxpayer."

I think this would still leave DBS non-viable, since the interest paid by borrowers on the £1 bn remaining good assets would be balanced (if not exceeded) by the interest paid on the £2.4 bn of depositors' savings. For the same reason, this is not a particularly good deal for Nationwide. Obviously there's also the dubiety of giving billions to managers who have already proved themselves incompetent. I suppose it would be possible to formally nationalize DBS, appoint new management, and then proceed from there, but this would cost even more.

"It may be that there isn't yet any legal mechanism for the Treasury to just buy the "bad" assets of a bank or building society, without first seizing it and breaking it up."

I'm not a lawyer, but almost any state intervention is being accepted at present, simply on the grounds of promoting financial stability. In other words, the formerly key objection that these would be state subsidies, and illegal under EU law, have been dropped for the duration by all EU states.
153

Denis,

31/03/2009 12:26:43
True, sm753, but then RBS has been rewarded for its spectacular failure.

There is an argument that under the present, extraordinary, circumstances the same principles should apply to all institutions, irrespective of their size.

So if you have to reward mega-bank RBS for its failure, because allowing it to collapse would bring down the whole financial system, you should also be prepared to reward a smaller institution for its similar, but smaller scale, failure.

I also note that while Dunfermline's "toxic assets" have now been bought by the state, and will in effect be quarantined prior to safe disposal, RBS still has its "toxic assets" on its balance sheet, but "insured" by Darling at massive risk to the taxpayer.

Eventually the RBS "toxic assets" will have to dealt with in the same way as Dunfermline's, or they'll continue to poison the system.
154

St.George,

31/03/2009 12:27:25
175. Funny how they don't say that on their advert! yet again England has bailed you out.
155

Denis,

31/03/2009 12:35:50
# 176 yokel - according to the article:

http://www.propertyweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=36&storycode=3137153&c=1

"DTZ subsequently valued the site at £5.2m, the claim form said."

So, no, land in England is not worthless, but the value of that land in Reading would still leave Dunfermline with a loss of approaching £100 million.

That's one project, the Lancashire project is another, and no doubt there are others.
156

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 12:37:49
Denis (179): "So if you have to reward mega-bank RBS for its failure, because allowing it to collapse would bring down the whole financial system, you should also be prepared to reward a smaller institution for its similar, but smaller scale, failure."

In a sense, we have rewarded failure here for precisely that reason. After all, it would also have been possible to simply let DBS die, allowing the depositors to recoup their losses (up to £50K per person) via the FSCS. Instead, £1.6 bn of savers' money, distributed in dubious loans, has been provided by the UK taxpayer. Whilst the toxic assets assumed won't be totally worthless, there will likely still be a substantial loss.

"I also note that while Dunfermline's "toxic assets" have now been bought by the state, and will in effect be quarantined prior to safe disposal, RBS still has its "toxic assets" on its balance sheet, but "insured" by Darling at massive risk to the taxpayer."

RBS, however, is also a de facto nationalized corporation, so those toxic assets already essentially belong to the taxpayer. I agree that the insurance scheme passes risk to the taxpayer, but this is probably analogous to requiring collateral from the directors of a limited liability company. In other words, this insurance is a restricted sovereign guarantee.

"Eventually the RBS "toxic assets" will have to dealt with in the same way as Dunfermline's, or they'll continue to poison the system."

That's true.
157

Dear_Gordon,

31/03/2009 12:39:18
Grahamski #40 -
Taken the huff?
The UK has rescued HBOS, RBS and DBS - something an independent Scotland would have been incapabable of doing. And that's taking the huff?
You, quite frankly are delusional.
---

The UK has "rescued" these 3 has it?

Let me ask you a question....

If I were to burn down your house, but while burning, nicked all your furniture, doors, and even the number screwed on outside, and "installed" them in my house and the houses of a few of my pals.

Could I claim to have saved your house?

Oh aye, and by the way, I used your money (tax) to buy the matches, petrol and getaway van! Thanks for that!
Enjoy sleeping in the garden!

That's maybe OK with you, because I'm guessing that you hate your house!

Me? I like my house. It's my neighbour the fire-starting cleptomaniac I detest!
158

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 12:43:19
My, i appear to have had my post deleted, it did not contain any unacceptable words or slanderous statements. However it did contain the words Rufus t firefly, Nulabour sleaze and Johnstone press.
Perhaps someone does not like these words being connected. Unionism don't you just love it
159

jane shore,

london 31/03/2009 12:44:31

Rab haw @ 174 A strong euro is not good news for Eire. The export trade is critical for Ireland, 4/5ths of what it produces is sold abroad.

There was a sad & lengthy article in The Sunday Times' magazine last Sunday. It is no wonder that your Mr Salmond is not banging on about "The Celtic Tiger" anymore.

160

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 12:45:42
183
"It's my neighbour the fire-starting cleptomaniac I detest!"

I take it by neighbour you mean England?

Give it up, you swivel-eyed little bigot....
161

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

31/03/2009 12:53:29
Grahamski, you really are a tired, worn-out, crashing bore. Oh, and if there's any bigotry around here, you appear to be the perpetrator.

Away back to watching the porno films.
162

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 12:55:28
Dear Gordon (183): "Let me ask you a question....

If I were to burn down your house, but while burning, nicked all your furniture, doors, and even the number screwed on outside, and "installed" them in my house and the houses of a few of my pals.

Could I claim to have saved your house?"

Let's get the analogy right: A wealthy man is revealed to have spent his family's money gambling. The Town Council, instead of sending in the bailiffs, pays his debts, rehouses his family, gives them their spent money back, but puts a reliable Uncle in charge. The formerly wealthy gambler, and some of the more impressionable townsfolk claim this is unfair -- his debts weren't that big, and he was good for the money, and it's just the Lord Mayor likes the Uncle.

163

morris,

edinburgh 31/03/2009 12:55:36
72

You make infinite sense of course,but its not so long ago that one of the highest claims in Scotland was from East Lothian which is almost closest to London!

The Highland and Islands seats can travel for less! The system is a free for all and that's why these quislings are there. They know they betray their country and they milk the system for every penny they can get.This is a career and has sod all to do with serving the people.Its a self service trough!

The sad part is half of Scotland thinks they care whether they live or die ,when in truth, they look after only no 1 . They are a get rich quick club and operate outwith any known standards of decency.I have heard that the first thing that happens upon a new Labour arrival at Westmonster is they show you how to claim some expenses (when you have not been there long enough to have incurred any almost)!
Labour are a disgrace ,but the people who vote for them are even worse.How can anybody mistakenly claim for a porn video when its not even for her own use!The fact that there are hundreds of thouands of pounds which she has claimed but is accountable for nothing says it all.The government of this country are corrupt ,rotten to the core.England will remove Broon and his cohorts.What are we going to do is the question!
164

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 31/03/2009 12:57:09
#180
Don't be so stupid. DBS and the other failed institutions that were HQ'd in Scotland went belly up because they provided massive loans to English businesses and householders.

Certainly, the directors of these institutions have proven to have been incompetent, greedy, inept, irresponsible and negligent and, certainly, they should be disqualified from holding any directorships ever again but perhaps they also incredibly naive in believing that Scottish principles of financial probity were shared by the English and found themselves floundering in a snake-pit of shady companies and unscrupulous borrowers.

It adds insult to injury that Scottish taxpayers are equally bearing the cost of making good the result of possibly fraudulent borrowing by English companies.

165

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 13:05:54
Jacqueline Hyde (191): "but perhaps they also incredibly naive in believing that Scottish principles of financial probity were shared by the English and found themselves floundering in a snake-pit of shady companies and unscrupulous borrowers."

Of course. How could I not have seen it before? It's the fault of we evil corrupt English. Obviously it cannot be, even in part, the fault of Scots.

Truly, anti-English Scottish conspiracy theories are reaching pathological levels.
166

The Tin Man,

31/03/2009 13:10:32
#192

Jaqueline Hyde is English, lives in London, is a Labour Party activist, wears union jack panties, and is having a laugh.
167

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 13:14:10
184 What a ridiculous post. Is our economy now based upon gambling and guessing games ? Is it a matter of chance which organisation gets bailed out and which one doesn't ? Nonsense. There should be a policy and it should be applied consistently and it should have a founding purpose.

Labour are MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG and they are going to bankrupt us all.
168

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 13:15:16
Tin Man (193): "Jaqueline Hyde is English, lives in London, is a Labour Party activist, wears union jack panties, and is having a laugh."

If that's the case, then I apologize for my sense of humour failure. Given some of the more inane posts , I hope it's understandable. She sounds delightful, except for the Labour part link.
169

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 13:19:48
Lets have a reality check here. All the flim flam in the world about who's to blame for the state of the economy can not hide the basic facts.
Scotlands economy is a product of its Union with England, in other words it has happend on Westminsters watch.
Comparing what Scotland could or would have done if independent is irrelevent as no one knows what Scotlands economy, banking regulations etc would have been like.
However one can guess an Independent Scotland would have been better placed to deal with this
The Treaty Of Union has been an expensive mistake foisted on Scotland and it's repeal is, no doubt going to happen. The debate is now about a time frame
170

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 31/03/2009 13:25:21
John Swinney is a good man and must not be held accountable for this fiasco.
171

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 13:34:13
Westfield B (197):
(i)
"Comparing what Scotland could or would have done if independent is irrelevent as no one knows what Scotlands economy, banking regulations etc would have been like."

and

(ii) "However one can guess an Independent Scotland would have been better placed to deal with this"

So, according to your point (i), your subsequent point (ii) is irrelevant. Adroit rhetoric . . .

"The Treaty Of Union has been an expensive mistake foisted on Scotland and it's repeal is, no doubt going to happen."

Expensive for England, certainly. Remember the Darien scheme: Scotland gambled its GDP, blamed the failure on England, had its debts paid by England, then sulked. There's a pattern here, but I can't quite make it out. . .
172

Tartan Viking,

31/03/2009 13:35:53
Hope the people of Glenrothes are happy. Well done to you all. The Union benefit you voted* for has come home to roost.

* Not that we can examine the results since all the records of the vote are missing.
173

Dear_Gordon,

31/03/2009 13:36:50
Grahamski @ 183

Now now! - Lets not start with the name calling.

My analogy was obviously a little cryptic for you. The "Firestarting Cleptomanic Neighbour" was meant to be analogous to Mr Brown, Mr Darling and perhaps by extension the Labour Party.

I have no problem with England or the English. Certainly less so than you appear to have with Scotland and the Scots.

I also do not excuse the "scottish" banks and building societies of blame. Far from it. However, Brown is exploiting a disastrous situation for his perceived political gain, and that is outrageous.
174

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 13:48:29
202
You know, dear, I almost prefer the knuckle-dragging bigotry of the 'old guard' of the nationalist movement. At least there was a bit of honour in their howl-at-the-moon England-hating.
Now, the more sophisticated specimen like you is a different matter altogether. When your sleekit wee bigotry gets highlighted you deny it. Is there a set of bagpipes parping three times somewhere?
175

Astonished,

Inverclyde 31/03/2009 13:48:57
sm753 -Foolishly mentions Occam's razor to determine the truth.

1 Labour lie about Scotland and certainly have done so for the last fifty years.

2 The Dunfermline board said they required £20-£30million to trade through these very difficult times.

3 The FSA said they required £20 million initially.

4. A darling said they needed £200 million.The fsa changed their mind.

5. The fsa is widely discredited as is the chancellor.

6. The Dunfermline sell out was extremely fast preventing any meaningful investigation. In fact, it was a fait accompli.

7. Labour don't do honest and truthful investigations.

8. Labour are desperate.

9. The Nationwide needed saving without having to go cap in hand to the government.

10. The rules will be very different for other building societies i.e. Newcastle,chelsea,melton mowbray.

11.The Dunfermline is regarded by labour as another 'nationalist shibboleth'.





Please stop 'lying for labour' - It demeans you.
176

AJM,

31/03/2009 14:12:22
I see that my point at #168 has been ignored by the Nat posters so I will make again to clearly understand that not one of you posting on here "angry" about the Nationwide taking over DBS is prepared to actually come out and disagree openly with AS.

It shows you up to be the sycophants that I suspected you were, your great leader has welcomed the deal with Nationwide, in the piece I saw he said it slowly several times so that the angry SNP brigade could get it.

I am aware he said he was perplexed about some part of it, but he welcomed it. So are you all wrong that this deal is to be welcomed or has AS got it badly wrong and he is going against that rank file opinion in the SNP that it should be actively opposed.

I welcome any opinion from within the SNP ranks.
177

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 14:16:25
199 Fairfax
England blockaded Scots ports and encouraged attacks by the Spanish on Scots in Darien. Threats of invasion by Englsh forces and bribery of scots parliamentarians to foster a treaty. Which version of scots history have you studied obviously not the facts.

200 sm753
Not really worth commentating with you as i'm already aware of your made up statistics and really bad history, well you are a Unionist subsidy junky, ooooooooh i'm British, er*e
178

Denis,

31/03/2009 14:20:52
# 184 sm753, and # 195 Observer.

My view is this.

When Nick Leeson broke Baring's Bank, the Bank of England said:

"It's your own stupid fault; your collapse won't create any significant risk to the financial system; so goodbye, then."

That was the correct decision.

In the same way, if it was just Dunfermline which faced collapse, it would be fair to say the same thing - "Your fault, no systemic risk, goodbye".

But the fact is that the current problems are already systemic, and not restricted to a few especially duff organisations, and the government has already stepped in to save some of the mega-banks which have shown themselves to be just as duff as Dunfermline, if not more so.

Under these circumstances, it seems wrong to me to make an example of a small organisation which has mismanaged its affairs, while pledging huge sums of taxpayers' money to help large organisations which have mismanaged their affairs just as badly.

The end result will be the disappearance of some of the smaller organisations, and more consolidation, so that we'll be left with fewer organisations, which will be even more 'too big to fail'.

I'd rather see the opposite - the mega-banks should be broken up, so that no bank has to be saved because it's considered 'too big to fail'.
179

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 14:34:33
It looks like Gordon Brown has played another blinder.

From the Telegraph..................

"Britain will escape with shallower recession than rivals, OECD predicts"

"The world is facing the “deepest and most synchronised recession in our lifetimes” but Britain will escape with one of the shallowest recessions in the rich world, the OECD, the West’s leading economic institution has said."

"The OECD said the UK would fare better than most of its international counterparts. It said the US, Japan, Germany and Italy would all shrink faster than Britain this year."

Superb news.

Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling - we salute you.
180

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 14:34:59
(#209) – (Westfield Bairns) – When did England blockade Scottish ports?

Have you got any evidence for this?

What evidence have you for England encouraging attacks by the Spanish?
181

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 14:35:46
212
Amazing! Are you actually suggesting that when your common or garden cybernat claims that information was supressed they are in fact lying?
182

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 14:35:55
Where is 'For Scotlands Future'?

Is he still bashing that refresh button trying to get tomorrows news today?
183

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 14:35:55
Westfield (209): "England blockaded Scots ports and encouraged attacks by the Spanish on Scots in Darien."

That's correct -- and why not? After all Scotland was an independent nation, and England owed Scotland nothing. We also made it clear beforehand that we did not support Darien, not least because (i) it wasn't in our interest, and (ii) it was silly.

"Threats of invasion by Englsh forces and bribery of scots parliamentarians to foster a treaty."

Of course we used military and economic force -- that's what great powers do. On the other hand, England also refinanced the Scottish economy after Darien and Scotland was able to engage in free trade and settlement within the English Empire. That was a fair exchange.
184

Denis,

31/03/2009 14:42:47
# 205 Astonished -

"9. The Nationwide needed saving without having to go cap in hand to the government.

10. The rules will be very different for other building societies i.e. Newcastle,chelsea,melton mowbray."

Are you even aware that Nationwide has recently absorbed two of those "other building societies", Cheshire and Derbyshire, which had got themselves into some difficulties; that in both cases Nationwide did that without any financial support from the taxpayer; and that because it had already done it twice recently Nationwide said that it didn't want to do it a third time for Dunfermline?

If you have any evidence that "nationwide needed saving", present it.
185

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 14:43:04
#219 unfortunately for you Weirdog your nose is joined to the rest of your body.
186

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 14:46:00
Ghost Shirt (215): "I don't really think that the English people put much thought into the whole business of the union."

Once that was true. Now, however, I think our view is resigned: if Scotland wishes to secede, then stop whining and do so. Consider, for example, the greatly increased number of St George flags in England -- in the recent past, these would have been Union flags.

"It is very clear that the British Government wants Scotland for the obvious reasons, for oil and military purposes, which are to Britain's (and therefore England's) financial gain."

Oil brings in roughly £10 bn per annum to the UK Treasury, roughly 1% of English GDP. Most of that is, in any case, returned to Scotland via increased public sector spending. The economic cost of Scottish secession to England would therefore be roughly zero. As for military purposes, Scottish opposition to Trident is so great that, even if the UK continues, it may have to be moved to Devonport. There is therefore no further military need for Scotland: any decrease in troops could easily be fixed in a recession with high unemployment.

"I actually don't mind at all sharing these assets with England so long as it's for the right reasons. For Scotland to be forced to sacrifice its right to independence is not for the right reasons."

You're not being forced to sacrifice anything. If you give the SNP a strong majority, in Parliament and Holyrood, then independence would be yours. The key is to take a decision: stay or leave, but please diminish the anti-English paranoid whining.
187

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 14:46:28
214 Ewan Randal

The evidence was found during my time studying Scottish and British history and is documented in both Scottish and English parliamentary debates as well as general documents during this period.

However i'l just have to rely on circumstantial evidence that you are a f*d
188

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 14:52:20
227
Unbelievable! Is this true? It's bad enough funding the likes of Jonathan Ross from our licence fee but funding nationalist mythology and lets face it, downright lies and smears is the last straw....I'm going to phone the police...
189

Ewan Randall,

31/03/2009 14:56:37
Britain will escape with shallower recession than rivals?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5082004/Britain-will-escape-with-with-shallower-recession-than-rivals-OECD-predicts.html
190

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 14:57:55
218 Fairfax
Yes very well informed, however lets not pretend like some that this Union was popular or even wanted by the majority in Scotland.

My opinnion is that scotland and Englands interest lies with Independence and that we can still be best friends with many shared interests. However decisions should be made in our respective Capitals
191

Davie08,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 15:05:23
#218 Fairfax old chap the Dutch were prevented from investing in Darien by William of Orange at the behest of the East India Company as indeed were English investors. So the scheme was hardly silly if the EIC were that worried about competition. Funny ...not seeing a pattern here...surely not
192

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 15:08:18
Westfield (232): "Yes very well informed, however lets not pretend like some that this Union was popular or even wanted by the majority in Scotland."

Scotland wasn't a democracy in 1707, and neither was England, so I fail to see the relevance of popularity or the majority. Had the Union been truly unpopular, however, the 1715 and the 1745 would have prevailed. Instead, despite the sulking, they failed. The only conclusion is that the Union was tacitly accepted. After all, for Scots in 1707, there was the recent history of Scotland's siding with Charles II following the execution of Charles I, followed by the defeat, conquest and annexation of Scotland by Cromwell in the 1650s. In comparison, the 1707 Treaty must have seemed a good deal. You can learn more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_england


193

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 15:13:06
#215

"It is very clear that the British Government wants Scotland for the obvious reasons, for oil and military purposes, which are to Britain's (and therefore England's) financial gain."

Military purposes probably alot more so than the oil (which is only worth 8-12% in proportionate terms to the UK economy as it would be to the Scottish economy)

Places like Faslane and Coulpourt are key to strategic naval capability in a nato/nuclear context and there are probably few places in England and Wales that could fulfill the same role.

Why do you think the American establishment are so put off by the idea of Scottish independence while they were instrumental (admittedly in a very different world) in establishing the Feni@n (aparently that word is still offensive even in its original context) movement that led to the creation of the Irish Free State (and subsequently Republic)
194

Davie08,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 15:21:42
#235 Actually there was serious discussion about a union with the Netherlands. The English only got interested when it became obvious that Queen Anne was not going to produce a viable sprog. The Union itself was almost rescinded in 1709 and survived by three votes in the House of Lords. BTW I get very tired dinning this into first year undergrads but wikipedia is not a source.
195

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 15:25:20
#237

You can bet your bottom dollar if the Tories win the GE (which I expect them to do with a record commons majority) Labour will be tearing up the Calman report and demanding powers for Holyrood that are more like the recommendations of the Steel report a couple of years ago.

196

scully,

Colchester 31/03/2009 15:33:34

Watching the News today. Kelly and another man said it would be very dangerous for the security of the country for the Peoples of Britain to be given a full account of MPs expenses. And these are the two that have been given the authority to investigate J Smith and others. So I don't think we will get any answers, as they have obviously closed ranks to save themselves

SO IT IS NOT IN THE NATIONS INTEREST TO KNOW HOW AND BY WHOM THE COUNTRY IS BEING RUN. I THINK THIS IS A JOB FOR THE SERIOUS FRAUD SQUAD, AS THEY HAVE JUST UNCOVERED MASSIVE FRAUD ALL AROUND BRITAIN AND THE WORLD. ALL CONNECTED.DO WE HAVE OUR OWN LITTLE GOD FATHER IN WESTMINSTER. IS IT REALLY JUST A CHANTY THEY KEEP UNDER THE BED
197

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 31/03/2009 15:34:46
Now more than ever , there has to be an inquiry by some truly impartial body into what has been going on with the DBS, and I don't just mean regarding the mistakes, real or otherwise made by it's directors, although that should be a part of it, but also into things like, could or should the government have helped
directly to save it, the alleged leaked stories, why Alister Darling did not revel all the facts when speaking to Scotlands first Minister and the truth about the rescue bid, they could also look into the speed with which this was done ect.

Unionists should hve no objection to this, if they have nothing to fear, but the questions must be answered.
198

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 31/03/2009 15:35:22
And so the backbiting, the quarrelling, and the bedwetting rolls on. Nothing I have read so far suggests that any solution for Scotland's woes is likely to be resolved here. Do you wonder that millions of us left for overseas, never to return? All that talent, all those entrepreneurs who made fortunes; all those Scotsman calenders hanging on kitchen walls to remind us that once we were part of a tiny country whose achievements were hailed worldwide, but are now reduced to the scoring of miniscule points.
What a shameful epitaph for poor beaten Scotland, raped of its assets by England, while those who live there whine their way into pathetic oblivion.
199

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 15:37:36
235 Fairfax
I'm perfectly aware there was no democratic mandate in 1707 however the relevence of the matter is that sovereignty lies with the people and the Scottish Parliament in 1707 had no right to negotiate the matter.
I think you know perfectly well the 1715 / 1745 uprisings in Scotland were more about religion, monarchy and was by no means a Scottish/English conflict.

The simple fact is that nothing has changed regarding Englands strategic aims and this require Scotland as part of a Union.
However this Union is not in Scotlands interest
200

scully,

Colchester 31/03/2009 15:43:42


Where has all the money gone.How can well established Businesses and banks and building society's go broke. You can only come to one conclusion. Greed for money and the power it buys.But take the money away and you take the power away.
201

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 31/03/2009 15:49:38
So none of the usual unionists suspects on here will have any objection to an inquiry being set up by some impartial body to look into all the issues, that right?
202

The Tin Man,

31/03/2009 15:53:16
#248 ochone

No problem - which 'impartial body' do you suggest?
203

Viking Girl,

Dumbarton 31/03/2009 15:54:07
I'm a Dunfermline saver, and have been for 13 years. It seems odd to me that the bankers/financiers involved in this and other banking disasters are all of retirement age, and have a secure financial future, despite the mayhem they've caused. They're of a generation that was brought up on 'prudence,' but they seem to have thrown caution to the winds, and, in the case of the Dunfermline, the members savings into insolvent companies that had never posted accounts. You'd hardly believe that mature men could be that stupid. I suppose we should be getting used to it by now.
204

scully,

Colchester 31/03/2009 15:55:15


245 Richmond

YOU RAN. I would not favour you to be at my back on the battlefield.. I would want you right in front of me. where I could see you. How dare you run our country down . you lost all say when you left. Only those in the house can sit at the table, PLEASE don't come back. The recession will reach you soon this is a global disaster.
205

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 15:56:33
Davie08 (240): "Actually there was serious discussion about a union with the Netherlands." The English only got interested when it became obvious that Queen Anne was not going to produce a viable sprog."

To be fair, mutual interest, cooperation (and war) between the two states went back to the 16th century, of course. After all, Elizabeth I was briefly offered the Crown of the United Provinces, and William III deftly used his position to foster the Anglo-Dutch alliance against France, continued by Anne and culminating in Blenheim in 1704.

"BTW I get very tired dinning this into first year undergrads but wikipedia is not a source."

I introduced that link with "You can learn more here:", not as a source. Still, since I approve of your disapproval, readers can also learn more about the Commonwealth of England, together with Cromwell's defeat and annexation of Scotland in the 1650s, in Barry Coward's textbook:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cromwellian-Protectorate-New-Frontiers-History/dp/0719043174/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238511585&sr=8-4

206

ochone,

31/03/2009 16:00:53
245, so better to run away than stay and try and do something about it?

Or did you try first?

The majority of folk who read these posts, do not themselves post, they have one of the most biast medias in the World, who constantly feed them a unionist viewpoint, although some Nat supporters get there posts wrong, they very rarely come close to those unionists who don't care what they post so long as it sticks up for their corrupt union, and I include
the BNP/national front types in those as well.

Their comments like those of the media are driven more and more by desperation these days, as the public are more and more rejecting their lies.

So if you are really concerned, then instead of sitting on the side lines critising, why not join in the fight and be there when Scotland wins, or do you no longer think that she is worth it?

207

scully,

Colchester 31/03/2009 16:06:53


The fraud and corruption is around the world.I cant remember Gods Job ever having become vacant. Why do all world leaders think they can sit in that chair.your little naked bodies will go scooting out there to real justice,so don't bother packing a case.because in the end wee all go in little boxes with numbers,all your ill gotten gains stay hear for relatives to argue over. Wake up to Reality
208

The Tin Man,

31/03/2009 16:08:30
#254 Ochone

You are not going to get far in the world buy claiming that the BBC is "one of the most biast medias in the World".

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and at least your's is amusing.

209

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 16:09:23
Ghost Shirt (249): "But uprisings did prevail. In Scotland."

The uprisings were also opposed. The brilliant Scottish mathematician Colin Maclaurin, helped coordinate the Edinburgh opposition to the Jacobites in 1745, if I recall correctly.

"Oh, you conveniently mjiss out the Covenanters, I see, upon whom Cromwell dependenced for support on a couple of crucial occasions and who he later betrayed by taking advantage of the weakness of Scotland through its own civisl war."

I agree that the Covenanters were crucial Cromwellian allies, but would reject saying Cromwell betrayed them -- he seemed to think they had betrayed him. They had, after all, made the crucial decision to support Charles II. They had also invaded England -- after all, the final Cromwellian victory was at Worcester.

"Oh, Fairfax. I'm afraid you're turning into one of these re-writers of history who seems to have a problem with the Scots. And here was me thinking you were a nice fellow."

I don't believe so, but perhaps my temper is fraying somewhat, given the many "Oh those evil English!" posters today. My apologies for the brittleness.

"The original Fairfax, by the way, oppposed Cromwell in his decision to betray his Scottish former allies. "

Thomas Fairfax opposed the preemptive invasion of Scotland when he resigned as Commander-in-Chief in 1649. I can recall no indication that he would have opposed a defensive war once the Scots invaded England for Charles II.
210

bill-alba,

fife 31/03/2009 16:14:03
to the treachourous vichy scots/british comments..the DBS has failed RBS has failed HBOS has failed but....that will not stop scotland going independent so get your glea ridden treachourous heads back under the sand.
211

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:22:28
258 bill-alba,fife 31/03/2009 16:14:03
to the treachourous vichy scots/british comments..the DBS has failed RBS has failed HBOS has failed but....that will not stop scotland going independent so get your glea ridden treachourous heads back under the sand.
===================================================

Oh dear.

The Nationalist Cringe is alive and well in bill-alba.
212

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:22:31
I think I may have wandered into a history lesson. Laters .....
213

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 16:23:24
#258

We need to learn from mistakes and create new banks and building societies. Its probably not as difficult as many people would think so long as the right regulation and management team is in place and not the kind of self pleasuring morons who brought the financial system to its knees. RBS can and will recover in time, Clydesdale Bank has stood like a mountain in a storm through all of this and we need to be sure if and when National Australia dedides to sell, a Scottish consortium is ready to step up to the mark.

We can also take example from Google. Created by a couple of nerds in a back bedroom, now the largest company in the world and literally out of nothing.
214

,

31/03/2009 16:24:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
215

The Tin Man,

31/03/2009 16:25:11
#258 bill

The irresponsible failure of Scotland-based financial institutions has very little to do with the concept of Scottish nationalism - it just means that the tax-base is lower nthan it was a couple of years ago.
216

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:25:22
Beats "refresh" every time.
217

Davie08,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 16:27:01
#257 Fairfax on the execution of Charles I Charles II automatically became king of Scots. The English parliament (not for the first or last time) did not take into consideration the constitutional position in Scotland and Scotland had not decided to become a republic. In effect the execution ended a a multi national monarchy and the proclamation of a Commenwealth in England did not extend legally or constitutionally into Scotland. I am obliged for the reference and I will have a look at it when I have time though I fear our opinions are probably irreconcilable on this and other matters. Mind you it is pleasant change to be discussing the iniquities of Cromwell rather than those of the present incumbent.
218

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:30:10
Help ma boab - mair history.
219

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:34:02
268

You're very chipper today sm.
220

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:35:04
Oh dear, Weirdog has just returned from his photoshoot.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/1915841748_83f7e069c7.jpg
221

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:36:57
I wonder if Weirdog ever did get his ladies shoe back that he threw at Jim Murphy.
222

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:38:29
But then again pugnaces is plural so everything's fine.
Wardogs it is.
223

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:39:23
272

No shoe. All made up. Murphy isn't worth a flip-flop.
224

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:40:54
sm753, I think the plural 'canes' is deliberate.

It covers his Schizophrenia.
225

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:45:05
Been here Rufus?

http://www.bailoutbrown.com/
226

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:47:38
275 Linoleum Blownapart,31/03/2009 16:39:23
272
No shoe. All made up.
====================================================

Linoleum that is untrue.

Wardog was spotted shortly afterwards at the scene of the crime.

http://www.humorhour.com/pictures/h256.jpg

227

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:49:40
277 Linoleum Blownapart,31

I got 10, what about you?
228

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 16:53:02
Rufus

13 - but that was after 3 attempts. My throwing arm is obviously not as good as Jacqui Smith's husband's.
229

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 16:55:45
Linoleum

Its not as good as wardogs either, well not when throwing ladies shoes.
230

Fairfax,

31/03/2009 16:57:55
Davie08 9265): "The English parliament (not for the first or last time) did not take into consideration the constitutional position in Scotland and Scotland had not decided to become a republic."

Well, that's fair enough. I would add, however, that Cromwell must have been somewhat surprised when Charles II accepted the Scottish requirement that Presbyterianism be imposed on England -- and, equally, Scots should have expected this to not be viewed as anodyne in England. Surely no prince was less likely to be Presbyterian than Charles II!

It's probably time to return to setting exam questions ...
231

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 17:01:22
283 Wardog™,31/03/2009 16:58:22
dear oh dear rufus, your all hot and bovvered.
Been dreaming about big alex lately?
Do you have a poster of salmond on your wall?
===================================================

Errm, no, no and no.

Anything else my stilletoed one?
232

AJM,

31/03/2009 17:02:35
Well it appears not one Nat is prepared to offer up that AS got it wrong, his disciples have not been up to the task of saying he should be opossing the takeover of DBS.

Clearly AS has differed from the refuse/hate everything from England brigade of his party. They themselves though have not even the nerve to confront this even on here, preferring to wander off down histories little lanes and talk about other matters. Whistling in the air to themselves, assuring the great AS they were not the ones taking the wrong line.

There is no appearance of mature political thought among the Nats, rant and bluster with no ability to voice a different opinion from the leader.
233

Davie08,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 17:03:10
#266 point taken Lino. I will desist but one gets very very bored with Smee and Doofus trolling away all day and everyday. At least fairfax writes in sentences and presents an argument even if I happen to think its flawed. Now I come to think of it boring the bejesus out of all of us is probably what passes for a cunning plan from these two.
234

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 31/03/2009 17:12:13
Did I hear the siren call of salt and sauce on my chips!
235

Davie08,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 17:18:47
#288 Better history's little lanes than the squalid back alleys that you would appear to inhabit
236

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 17:21:08
WARDOG: You obviously believe that people are laughing at you.

For once you are correct.
237

SkeptikScot,

31/03/2009 17:21:10
QUOTE: "Dunfermline offered loans of up to £20 million to an "insolvent" property firm in Lancashire, which then used the cash to provide 100 per cent mortgages on rundown terraced homes in the north of England. This was typical of about £800 million of investments made by the Dunfermline." UNQUOTE

The senior managers seem to have made up a whole catalogue of reckless decisions. Whatever else comes out of this, these people need to be sacked; no fat pensions!
238

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 31/03/2009 17:24:02
Oh well, i quite enjoyed the history lesson, nice to have some educated debate. However i'll try the Unionist way

ROOFARSE, SMEEE, AJM
i see the feeble minded and uneducated are on shift, ooooooooooooooooh i'm Scottish and British, always nice to slap down the Unionist seat sniffers
239

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 17:24:16
#286

Every time I see Jim Murphy on the TV he makes my blood boil.

Its the way he so calmly and assuredly talks Scotland down all the time while trying to make out he's acting in our best interests. There's something kind of patronising and politically incorrect in his tone of voice - it's like the ("does he take sugar?") way some people talk to a disabled person or a child with learning difficulties.
240

,

31/03/2009 17:27:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
241

Fidelio,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 17:28:50
The last flicker of Scottish Independance is snuffed out with another financial services disaster.

What's left that we can be proud of and build an independant economy on?
242

,

31/03/2009 17:35:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
243

Conan the Librarian™,

31/03/2009 17:48:31
308
Thanks for putting an image of a somewhat bedraggled Rufus and sm753 being herded South, stumbling behind a wagon...
244

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 17:49:20
#301 - You forget in your analysis that the loans have a funding cost and that the current value of the property may be sub £70m. It will take a long time to get back to £100m from there, and all the time the interest on the loan is compounding.
245

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 31/03/2009 17:49:48
Some may think it's a bit early in the day for this, but given some of the above comments, I think that I can proceed safely.

I would once again like to thank the usual unionists contributers for their help in the advancement of Scottish independence.

I can only hope that they continue with their ever successful, (for us that is), policy of posting, without thinking over what it is that they have actually posted.

Today we have even had one who contradicted themself within their own post, brilliant.

Keep up the good work and you do agaree that an impartial enquiry would be a good idea, well none of you have said no, so I will take it as a yes and that if none is forth coming you will complain?

246

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 17:57:33
Fidelio #302,
Whether or not we have the same number of financial services companies HQ'd in Scotland is not as important as you may think. Tax varying powers and full control of enterprise funding will give us leverage and total control of who way may want to attract to Scotland. Yeah, the recent financial services collapse has been embarrassing but we still have a highly skilled workforce (how much longer it will exist whilst Scotland is shackled is another question...)

Now, disregarding the financial services, have you heard of renewable energy? Have you heard of the Saltire prize? Perhaps you've heard of our north sea resources? What about medical (and other) research and development? Precision engineering? Plastics and synthetics manufacturing? Whisky? Tourism?... We've more than enough global goodwill but as you've demonstrated for us all, we have had the confidence booted out of us. Still, the fact remains: we are on the road and the more we discover - the more we will realise we would be far better off being in control of our own destiny. Our confidence is returning.

(I N D E P E N D E N C E btw)
247

Phil1,

Edinburgh 31/03/2009 18:00:31
Remember the 2 *ankers who promised to save HBOS and RBS witout it costing the taxpayer a penny?

Did you hear the *anker of a Chauirman of Dunce Building Society - the taxpayer has to pick up hundreds of millions of toxic i.e. almost worthless assets becuase he didn't do his job. He was Chairman, Deputy Chairman and Director for years - what on earth did he do apart from drag the Society to ruin.

Don't blame Gordon Brown he may be useless but he is not a crook and money grabbig *anker.

Hopefully all the directors of Dunce Building Society will go to jail without a payoff this time.
248

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 18:03:38
#305

Macedonia is currently running an advert CNN to attract inward investment, talking up its status as an EU candidate state, skilled workforce, etc.

It just goes to show what an embrassment and a joke Scotland is. We must be the laughing stock of Europe and all because of the Labour Party. They have the audacity to blame it on the Thatcher government and unfortunately people believe them.
249

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 18:10:22
302 Heard Alan Cochrane on the radio making precisely the same flawed point.

It makes hee haw diffeence when will people like you get that through your tiny little minds ? The case for independEnce stands or falls regardless of context.
250

,

31/03/2009 18:11:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
251

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 18:16:17
Rufus - Your obviously a bit rattled (Wardog)

He's been filing his teeth again.

How're you doing Wardog?

I see some Union Jacks telling us (again) Norway is not immune from the financial tsunami that is the fall-out from greed and corruption; it's taken a couple of hits - meaning, for all its oil wealth it's vulnerable.

As they say in parts of Glasgow, "Are you no a wee bi' previous, son?"

When Norway goes cap in hand to Sweden proposing Union because it cannot survive as an independent country, THAT'S when I expect to hear the argument Norway is not able to withstand the vagaries of a capitalist system.
252

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 18:20:18
Ah, the predictable Nat appeal to romanticism and ancient history. (Sado masochist)

Did you enjoy BBC repeats of Robin of Sherwood? Very romantic, very, ancient history.


Are you still telling everybody on threads to "grow up"? And you still in wet shorts.

LoL

253

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 18:21:39
Smee (or Arnold R1mmer as you are known to your friends) - independence does not mean putting up economic barricades. No one is really going to dig a trench along the border and sail away from England with the SNP. It's quite possible to have political and fiscal autonomy within a larger integrated economic network like, say, Europe.
254

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 18:24:24
I get very tired of teaching you people. (Sado Masochist)

Oh wow!

Where do these nutters come from? Listen to that vanity. More inflated than a zeppelin.
255

Denis,

31/03/2009 18:26:17
# 311 - an impartial inquiry would be a very good idea, not least to find out whether it was really necessary to touch UK taxpayers for £1.6 billion.

The purpose of which taxpayer largesse, in case anybody hasn't yet understood this, was not "to save Nationwide", but to make sure that if any Dunfermline saver wants to withdraw his money he can still do so.

In fact it's possible that even if all 300,000 wanted to withdrew all of their money all at once, Nationwide could still pay up - which is not usually the case with a bank or building society.
256

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 18:30:57
No one is really going to dig a trench along the border (Observer)

I dunno - if it keeps out fatheads like SM I'd be happy.

Of course, the rants and fear mongering of Union Jacks is rendered null and void when it is shown an independent Scotland could easily elect a Labour administration, or Tory, or Lib-Dems, or a Nuclear Power Now party.

It never seems to cross their vindictive imperialist walnuts the Scottish parliament is an inclusive chamber, all shades of political outlook are welcome.

They cannot see past their detestation of the SNP.


257

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 18:53:06
"but the one compensation is that I would get to watch a busload of swivel-eyed loons concocting conspiracy theories about it."

You'll be telling me next the moon landing really took place.
258

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 18:53:55
Arf arf
259

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 18:54:59
sm753 (really AM2)

You don't answer my e-mails. Why not?
260

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 19:01:32

It's really very disrespectful of you (Sado Masochist)

Well, I'll give you that one - I've used the switcheroo reposte myself.

261

Linoleum Blownapart,

31/03/2009 19:17:38
Dull now. Bye.
262

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 19:55:31
This contrasts rather sharply with Ireland in 1921 or Norway in 1907. Scotland is economically much more integrated into the UK now than either of those two were then, and the costs of separation would be correspondingly higher. (Sado Masochist)

I don't accept that statement.

You and other Union Jacks really only have one line: Scotland can't afford it.

No matter what aspect of independence is placed on the table for discussion, the reponse is always the same - you are too poor. You, SM, vary that slighty - you add England has all our companies, so sucks boo to us.

Well, VAT at 10%, generous tax breaks for companies locating to Scotland, tax breaks for inward investment, no tax for creative individuals if they make Scotland their base ... it doesn't take much to create a stampede.

263

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 19:55:47
327 Smee - stop it you will have people starting rumours that we are one and the same poster (you know how folk like to do that).

You have illustrated the point I was making perfectly.

If - in your view - an independent Scotland would have a ''limited influence'' then what kind of bleedin' influence do we have now ? Non existant.

I don't think anyone thinks that Scotland will be the centre of Europe or indeed the world. To a certain extent we may well become a branch economy, somewhat like other small European countries. Which would leave us with a hell of a lot more control than we have now.

Personally I think the whole imperative to globalisation is going to be reversed by the semi-collapse of capitalism (which effects haven't been realised yet, not really).

I would rather we negotiated our way through that as an independent ''branch economy'' than one with no say whatsoever in major decisions.

Such as why one financial organisation gets bailed out, and another one does not.
264

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:00:17
''That's why all businesses which can currently treat the UK as one economic and regulatory space (bar a few legal niceties) view the prospect of "independence" with horror.''

You have just made that up.
265

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:03:12
''one suspiciously biased journalist.''

Have you read Iain MacWhirter's view of the DBS issue ? He sure as hell doesn't support the ''cybernat'' view. That's because (unfortunately for you) he is an independent journalist who shows fear or favour to no one.
266

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 20:10:22
No, I don't say we are too poor (Sado)

Oh, YES you do:

And how would this be afforded? (Sado)

267

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:24:55
''less influential''

Please feel free to list examples of when Scotland's interests (where different from the South of England's)have ''influenced'' the Treasury to skew policy in our favour and the SE have had to fit in ?
268

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:31:00
''less pleasant''

What does that mean ?
269

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:32:00
''Our Glorious Union.''

What's glorious about it ?
270

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 20:33:41
"Our Glorious Union"

Who is "our" in this context?
271

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:36:56
Glorious:

*possessing or deserving glory
*entitling one to glory
*marked by great beauty or splendor
*magnificent
*delightful
*wonderful

??????????????????????????????????
272

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 20:39:25

It is also 100% clear to me that that hypothetical "independent" Scotland would be poorer, less influential, less secure and a less pleasant place to live than if it continued in Our Glorious Union. (Sado)

Well, here's the thing, Sado: Tough!

Now you imply we can't take the rough with the smooth. From too poor to too weak.

Quite frankly, I think people like you should shut the hell up and let us live by our own decisions.

Isn't that what Cameron's English Grand Committee is all about - that Scotland is excluded from making decisions on purely English matters?

What does that tell you, Sado?

One law for England, another for Scotland? Well, that suits me fine. Just fine.

It tells me the end of the Union is nigh!









273

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:41:33
Smee's winding us up. He'll be back in a minute with the full running list from ''Last Night of the Proms'' with Union Jacks to hand out so we can all join in with ''Land of Hope and Glory''.

274

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 20:47:53

"Land of Hope and Glory" (Observer)

I have an indelible image in my memory of the English national composer, Sir Edward Elgar, in one of the few moments he was ever filmed, lifting up the baton on the podium, and saying to the orchestra,

"Very well, gentlemen, try and play this as if you have never heard it before, rather difficult, I know, but do try."

My attitude entirely to Unionist propaganda.

275

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 20:51:32
361 You're such a tart Smee howking your wares all over town ! I am not normally a blog reader but I promise that I will read your ''demolition'' of Diomhair.........sometime.
276

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 20:54:54

Er, why would you want to take the "rough" when you could avoid it? (Sado)

That tells me you know absolutely nothing of the Scottish character. Which is just as well because I'd hate you to hold sway with your marshmallows today, tomorrow, and forever politics.


277

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 20:54:56
(and, franky, politically privileged)

What does "politically priviledged" mean? And who is frank?
278

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 20:56:27

Tracky. (Sado)

I think you mean, "tacky."

279

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2009 20:59:15
#362

Yeah the people whose livelihoods depended on Gartcosh, Ravenscraig, the coal mines and every other sustainable industry Thatchet eradicated really avoided the rough didn't they?

We're face a very long period of Tory rule in just over a years time. If you think David Cameron has any more regard for Scotland that Thatcher's government did you really need to wake up and get real.
280

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:00:37
365 Politically priviledged:

John Lewis list ? Free porn ?
281

,

31/03/2009 21:05:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:07:13

"Politically priviledged:" John Lewis list?

LoL
283

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:08:21
"So your point today is ....... reiteration of the same old message, namely, you have a visceral and bilious reaction to all things you disagree with."

That, my good Vincent, could be applied to each and every one of us.
284

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:08:40
Smee - it's OK for MI5 and the Special Branch to spy on the SNP because in every lunatic fringe there are some nutters ?

Methinks you need a lesson in democracy Mr R1mmer.
285

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:10:44

His site (Sado) is a barren desert or inept research, bogus claims and diabolical mutal grooming (Wardog)

I would not strain my tired eyes searching for it let alone read it.

286

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:13:38
371 I've just skimmed it but I imagine you will find Smee's ''demolition'' of Diomhair highly entertaining Wardog.

287

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 31/03/2009 21:24:18
Smee - it's OK for MI5 and the Special Branch to spy on the SNP because in every lunatic fringe there are some nutters ?

Funny I don't believe the SNP have lied to get our country into a war resulting in the unneccessary deaths of or troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraquis.

I don't believe that the SNP have killed anyone unlike the Labour party with regard to the London Bombings with the intention of inciting terrorism.

I do believe that the Labour party are doing everything they can to avoid independent investigations into these things.
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
288

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:24:26
''I just hope the SNP doesn't find that it's inadvertently acquired some links in those directions...''

Oh for goodness sake if you are talking about my (hopefully) future MP I think if he was running the SNP Branch of Al Quida (Glasgow South)even our bumbling security services may have latched onto that by now.
289

,

31/03/2009 21:24:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
290

,

31/03/2009 21:31:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
291

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:32:46
Was the sailor Lord Mountbatten Smee ?

I think Arnold R1mmer as your motif is truly staggering. Inspired even. Or frankly unbelievable that you should volunteer it ! Do you do the funny salute ?
292

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:36:10
Vincent

Yeah well sometimes you have to cut through the cr*p to have a debate. Call it passion for some of the extreme bloggers....
293

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:36:38

384 - Oh no! I'm shocked, LA. That's well below the belt.

LOL
294

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:37:46
Well he has learned how to stop worrying and love the bomb.

Not an art that I have mastered.
295

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:39:38


LA, are we to believe you think castration a political tool? (Randall's Scandal)

No, Randall dandle. Only you. (LA)

Have a good night chaps ..

296

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:39:44
389 Oh stop being silly there's plenty of serious discussion only sometimes it can be humorous too.

I'm off goodnight.
297

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:41:51


There is no point in attempting debate with irrational people (Sado)

Where Corky the Clone when you need him? Okay, I gotta do everything myself:

Smee - shut up, you pompous twit!


298

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 21:42:20
391 A sailor and a Tory. Like that well known batchelor Ted Heath mebbes.....
299

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:42:40
389

That was a very poor attempt at an extreme attack on the SNP supporters.

You, old bean, are one of the most extreme characters here with you "our glorious union" comments and the likes and your own blog site? Very extreme.

You actually haven't reached any conclusions and for treating this site as a source of amusement? You spend an awful lot of time "amusing" yourself here.

Nah, old chap, you're an extremists extremist of the Onion kind. God bless you and all that sails in you...
300

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:47:26
398

From what I can see, you take it and yourself seriously.

One of the more civilised Onionist traits. Like Broon, takes himself far too seriously. Gladly, the rest of the World doesn't, as has been shown.
301

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:47:42

"Self-deprication"? I hope it's an ointment you use and not a horse pill. One more for your saggy baggy face, SM -

There once was a Unionist who averred
He'd learned to fly like a bird
Cheered by thousands of people
He leapt from the steeple ...
... this tomb states the date it occured!

LA

302

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:50:43
I wonder if this "civilised British virtue of self depreciaion" is something the Scots adopted from England or was there a committee meeting at some point in history whereby they sat down and decided what would become British virtues and what would be left as a home country virtue?..
303

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:53:31

These (fake Labour) bloggers are a small geeky hardcore of fundamentalists. (Traquir)

But without the fun.


304

Los Angeles,

31/03/2009 21:53:56


More, mentalist.

305

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 21:56:55
Aye and there another one called The Bairn as well

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/SNP-seizes-control-of-Dundee.5123611.jp

Sefl determination is the way forward, Onionism isn't.
306

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 22:07:28
Probably because he doesn't want to lower himself to your level.

Still, it's only entertainment, isn't it?
307

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 22:11:23
"Division of labour"

Got that right. Lie-bore couldn't be anymore divided.
308

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 22:15:19
Don't y'all just love the way Smee avoids engaging with those that he fears?
309

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/03/2009 22:17:25
You can tell the flow of money into NI is drying up, the "terrorists" have kicked off again.
310

Observer,,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 22:23:34
He is only guilty of being Arnold J R1mmer. That is his crime and it is also his punishment.

Smeghead.

Great programme - but Lister was the hero.
311

Brian Hill,

31/03/2009 22:34:23
I see the unionists have been giving Jim Faulds some stick. I'm not surprised after the mauling he gave their anti Scottish union on the Politics Show on Sunday.

He was articulate to the point of being oratorical, succinct and to the point his honesty and love of DBS, Dunfermline and Scotland shone straight through the gossamer figure of unionist Campbell whose own light was reduced to a barely noticeable peep.
312

Brian Hill,

31/03/2009 22:42:53
But every cloud has a silver lining and in this case the lining is that thousands of Labour supporters in Fife and even more neutrals have been shocked by London Labour's haste to throw DBS to the English wolves despite Scottish backers in the wings.

This will be getting discussed in homes, pubs, clubs and shopping centres from now till this time next month. Faulds will come out of it well, Salmond and the Scottish Government will come out of it well....

....Brown, London and the London Controlled Labour Party are experiencing a major loss of confidence at the hands of the Scots in general and Fifers in particular.

I can see definite SNP representation from Fife following the next Westminster election.

Poor unionists, they think they've won but in reality they lose yet again.
313

The Answer,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 22:57:41
You lazy scotch are worse than the islamist's within or midst, a fifth coloum that have done more damage to England than bin laden could of ever wished for.. be off with you , you lazy bunch of crettins!
314

RufusT-Firefly,

31/03/2009 23:08:29
419 Brian Hill,31/03/2009 22:42:53
But every cloud has a silver lining
========================================================

I see Brian "the weather man" Hill is still obsessed with clouds.
315

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew, near Glasgow 31/03/2009 23:27:48
#420

You wouldn't happen to be the local BNP candidate for the forthcoming European elections would you?

What a lame, pathetic little loser.

You have my pity



316

Jonboy,

Inverness 31/03/2009 23:34:53
422 comments on this now....

No wait... 423!
317

The Answer,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 23:36:42
#422

What a lame , pathetic nation..

There is nothing proud about being little more than a fifth coloumn, a parsatic blood sucking bunch of leeches..

You dont have my pity.. How can one pity something as worthless as a scotch!
318

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew 31/03/2009 23:41:58
#420

What was the question?

Is it..

(a) Who can't spell, misuses the apostrophe, and has very poor grammar ?

or..

(b) Who is a sad pathetic loser?




319

The Answer,

Glasgow 31/03/2009 23:45:51
#425

Rather a loser , than being a scotch!
320

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew 01/04/2009 00:02:49
#424, #426

You prove my initial point with your erudite repostes.

Why are you in Glasgow? Can't you get a job in Mother England?

The Answer please.......
321

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew 01/04/2009 00:04:10
OK rIpostes
322

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew 01/04/2009 00:05:39
OOPS! Just another loser Scotch that cannae spell
323

Still Scaredanaebdy, but a bit quieter.....,

Renfrew 01/04/2009 00:20:11
#420, #424, #426 (Re: #425)

Take back what I said about spelling, and I am sorry, but everything else I stand by (loser etc.).

Night night.
324

Los Angeles,

01/04/2009 01:19:07

I see Brian Hill is still obsessed with clouds. (Dufus)

I see Rufus the Dufus is still obsessed with Brian Hill.

325

Los Angeles,

01/04/2009 01:29:53
What a lame, pathetic nation.. (Answer)

What a failure as troll - not a decent piece of abuse, a limp jibe, some dribbles, and then snoresville.




326

Los Angeles,

01/04/2009 09:06:21

I have no doubt that what we witnessed with the demise of the Dunfermline Building Society is shock economics at work.

It is pure Chicago School of Economics, pure Milton Friedman ideology.

His words:

"You have five days, seven at the most, to install radical change before the population recovers from the news and mobilises resistence."

It is savage capitalism at work, and it is reactionary and racist. It is always anti-democratic.

Part of the tactics is scapegoating; find someone or some people to divert attention from the crass inhumane new system getting installed.

It comes as no surprise another offer was on the table to take over the DBS, an offer ignored. That too is classic shock economics - all competition is brushed aside or ridiculed.

The nationalism of Scotland is a legitimate expression of frustration against a corrupt socialist system and a brutal neo-con Tory ideology.

It's an attempt by the aware, by academics, by the disaffected and disinfranchised to create a genuine democracy where the voice of the people will be heard and WILL be represented.

Ours is NOT an exclusive view, it is NOT Scotland for the Scots, rather it is Scotland ruled by the people of Scotland.

I repeat: Scotland's survival depends on getting out of the Union as soon as possible. Anything less leaves us vulnerable to the shocks inflicted by volatile markets and an antagonistic dominating neighbour state.

The cry has to be, sieze independence or lose your rights.

LA




 

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