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Published Date: 22 December 2008
TEACHER numbers are at their lowest for more than two years, despite government promises to maintain staffing levels.
Scotland's biggest teaching union, the EIS, has revealed new statistics showing the figure for the third quarter fell by 900 to 56,800, as low as it has been since three years ago, when it was 56,500. Last year, the figure for the same period was 57,700, while in 2006, it was 57,100.

Teachers warned yesterday that pupils would suffer if councils continued to cut staff to make savings. Ronnie Smith, the general secretary of the EIS, said the new school curriculum could be under threat.

The government statistics follow a recent survey by the General Teaching Council for Scotland (GTCS), the teaching reg-ulator, which revealed thousands of newly qualified teachers had been unable to find jobs.

Newly qualified teachers are guaranteed a year's work, but many find themselves without a job after this period. The GTCS survey revealed only 770 out of 3,426 probationary teachers last year had found permanent positions in the profession.

Last month, the number of unemployed teachers hit a three-year high, according to the Office for National Statistics. The sharpest rise was over the past year, when the figure rose by more than 50 per cent.

The number of Scottish teachers claiming Jobseeker's Allowance has soared from 155 in 2005 to 400.

The EIS leader demanded that the Scottish Government start policing and punishing councils that cut teacher numbers against the principles of the concordat funding deal.

Mr Smith said: "It's time the Scottish Government acknowledged that local authorities are simply failing to deliver on the promise to maintain teacher numbers in the face of falling school rolls and thereby to cut class sizes.

"The full-time equivalent number of teachers in Scotland is now at its lowest level since the third quarter of 2005.

"If we are cutting teacher numbers, that will increase workloads and put pressure on the profession at a time when we are supposed to be undergoing major curricular reform.

"Teachers are increasingly frustrated by the growing gap between the promises made by politicians and the reality of what is happening in our schools. It is time for the Scottish Government to act."

Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, has already promised larger "golden hellos" – rising from £6,000 to £8,000 – to attract applicants to hard-to-fill posts. And teachers nearing retirement will be allowed to work shorter weeks in order to free up jobs for new teachers.

Those measures were recommended by the Teacher Employment Working Group, a task force set up in June with teacher, council and government representatives.

An estimated 6,000 teachers are expected to retire each year, but many are reported to be staying on longer because of the recession, exacerbating the job shortage.

Ken Macintosh, Labour's schools spokesman, said: "Almost two years on, the SNP promises have been exposed for what they were – a complete con on the electorate.

"These figures show quite a dramatic fall, coming on the back of the GTCS survey, which shows high numbers of unemployed probationers. The education secretary previously promised an extra £9 million for teachers but now, when the situation is far worse, there is no money.

"She is being complacent, evading her responsibility, half denying there is a problem and half blaming local authorities, when it is the government which is responsible for providing funding to local authorities for teacher employment.

"The government's answer is to lower teacher expectations that they will get a job, which is just ridiculous.

"The concordat is something to hide behind rather than a mechanism to address the funding problem. We should reconstitute a new working group until this problem is sorted."

Ann Ballinger, the president of the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association, warned that children would be the innocent victims.

She said: "It is damaging the education of pupils who need additional support and affecting the education of everyone else.

"In class sizes of 33, everyone is suffering because there is so much time being taken up by those who need extra support."

Last June, Ms Hyslop pledged £25 million to employ 300 extra teachers last autumn and train a further 250 for the future.

She told the Scottish Parliament at the time that this would allow councils to begin reducing class sizes in primaries 1-3 in line with the SNP's pledge. No timescale has ever been announced for this target to be met.

As well as the 550 new teachers, Ms Hyslop promised a "significant increase" in the number of students being trained as teachers on undergraduate and postgraduate courses in the next few years.

Teacher concerns about a lack of funding and time to implement the new curriculum have already forced the government to delay it by a year.

A Scottish Government spokesman said the teachers' claims were misleading and based on inaccurate figures. He said: "The public sector employment estimates are estimates of the number of teachers on the payroll – including those on maternity leave and supply cover – and so do not reflect the numbers actually in the classroom at any given point.

"Overall, the number of people employed in education is 93,300 – compared to 92,600 when this Scottish Government came into office."

He said the Teacher Census, expected in March, would paint a more accurate picture.

The Scottish Government had, he said, provided record funding of £34.9 billion – a 13.1 per cent increase over the three-year spending review period. And the share of the Scottish Government's budget for local government services had increased year on year from a previously declining position inherited from the Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition.

He highlighted the extra funds for 550 new staff in 2007-8 and added: "Through the historic concordat with local government, councils have sufficient funding to maintain teacher numbers at 2007 levels in the face of falling school rolls, with some 20,000 expected to enter training by 2011."


Councils are using 'bullying' tactics in effort to cut sick leave, claims union leader

TEACHERS have slammed bureaucratic and unhelpful "silly" ideas to combat council staff sickies.

The Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association (SSTA) says repeated calls to check if workers still have cancer carried the "implication that every employee who is ill may be malingering".

Councils, however, defended the measures and accused the teachers of living in "cloud cuckoo land".

A joint statement from Murray MacFarlane, president of the Society of Personnel Directors in Scotland, and Joe Di Paola, head of the employers function at COSLA, dismissed the claims.

They said: "Managing absence from work and people's ability to fulfil the terms of their employment is part of the normal performance management arrangements of any organisation.

"Our procedures are robust but fair and the SSTA are living in cloud cuckoo land if they are advocating that councils sit back and do nothing.

"Councils take all absences from any sector of their workforce extremely seriously. We have a duty to our workforce and a duty to the public pound."

Jim Docherty, SSTA acting general secretary, highlighted practices such as insisting on meetings between employees and managers where the manager had contributed to the employee's stress-related condition in the first place.

He also criticised "one size fits all policies" with no regard for employee medical conditions, and threats to discipline teachers before disciplinary procedures were followed. Mr Docherty said: "We face unhelpful procedures which epitomise everything which is wrong with the current bureaucratic approach to personnel issues.

"Among the silliest ideas are the instructions given to employees who have provided medical certificates relating to serious long-term illnesses, requiring the employees to report to a senior manager by telephone every week.

"Effectively employees are being instructed to report 'my leg is still broken' or 'my treatment for cancer is continuing'."

He criticised a trend towards the "slavish" use of trigger points.

He said: "Employees are being warned they face disciplinary action simply because their absences have reached a certain level.

"They are being subject to disciplinary action simply because they have had a stroke or a heart attack. There are existing, more sympathetic procedures in place in such cases."

He said the techniques were effectively a form of bullying employees into attending work while sick.


Graduate twins' career dreams hit by reality

Graduate twins Cara and Lynn McAllister have been unable to secure full-time jobs teaching
Graduate twins Cara and Lynn McAllister have been unable to secure full-time jobs teaching
TWINS Cara and Lynn McAllister from Clarkston in East Renfrewshire, shared a drive to join the teaching profession.

Both 25-year-olds graduated in 2006 – Lynn as a secondary PE teacher from Strathclyde University and Cara as a primary teacher from Glasgow.

Each found a year's placement – something guaranteed to all probationary teachers. But after passing their trainee year and becoming fully registered teachers, a job was no longer guaranteed and both found themselves facing unemployment.

Cara's probationary year school was able to keep her on for another year on temporary three-month contracts. But when the school broke up for summer this year, the work dried up and she has only worked six days supply since.

Lynn was not so fortunate, and, when her probationary year ended, was forced to find work with an educational charity rather than fulfill her dream of teaching PE.

Cara said: "I feel my life is on hold. I'm 25, still living at home with no job. I can't get a mortgage and I'm just waiting for someone to get pregnant or ill so I can work.

"There were lots of mature students on my course who have families and mortgages – how are they coping without work?

"The main problem is the universities are training too many people and there aren't enough jobs to go round. And they are still training too many so it is going to get worse.

"When I see these adverts saying teaching is a great job, which it is, it makes me angry. I would urge people not to go on to a postgraduate course thinking they have a stable job to look forward to."


SNP struggles to fulfil its key pledges on education

SEVERAL of the SNP's key election promises last year focused on education.

Most are now in jeopardy because of the concordat funding deal with local authorities, which allowed the government to deliver its vow of a national council tax freeze.

Some of those education pledges are teetering on the edge of failure, with many senior figures in education privately predicting a collapse of the concordat.

The deal gave councils a lump sum of money – which they could allocate – replacing the previous system of ring-fencing cash for specific areas.

The result is cash-strapped councils using money for other pressing issues, rather than spending it on schools.

Some councils are asserting they cannot afford to pay more teachers and are in fact cutting back. Already, some have announced redundancies and have cut spending.

Glasgow City Council has said 78 teachers will have to go, blaming falling rolls as a contributory factor.

The local authority has identified £22 million of savings, but still has £3m to find.

Similarly, Aberdeen City Council needs to find £25m of cuts to fill a financial black hole, but it has so far said teachers' jobs will not be cut.

The result of falling teacher numbers is a domino effect on the government's other election promises.

Fewer teachers, particularly at nursery, throws the pledge of "access" to a nursery teacher for every child into doubt.

In some cases, this can mean a visiting nursery teacher moving around several schools, rather than actually taking a class full-time.

Teachers' unions have also warned falling numbers mean the government's smaller class sizes target, of 18 for primaries one to three, will not be met.

They have argued this is because the measure needs more teachers to implement it.

In many cases, it also requires new schools to be built to accommodate large classes being split into two.

However, any school building work has been delayed by the government's rejection of PPP schemes and confusion over its Scottish Futures Trust alternative.

The full article contains 2016 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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1

druidh,

edinburgh 22/12/2008 00:11:03
"These figures show quite a dramatic fall" - of just over 1%. Oooh - scary.

2

Darien,

Panama 22/12/2008 00:11:44
Problem with the UK economy is too many teachers and NewLab party aparatchniks running it. They have nobody in the bl**dy cabinet with any industry experience at all. Scotland needs to get out of this mess fast.

Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP Member, Scottish Executive Labour Party 1977-83
Rt Hon Alistair Darling MP Councillor
Rt Hon David Miliband MP Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research
Rt Hon Jack Straw MP Councillor/Barrister
Rt Hon Jacqui Smith MP Teacher
Rt Hon Alan Johnson MP Full Time Officer of Union of Communication Workers
Rt Hon Lord Mandelson Councillor, then MP
Rt Hon Hilary Benn MP Councillor/Research Officer with the Association of Scientific, Technical and Management Staffs
Rt Hon Douglas Alexander MP Parliamentary Researcher and Speechwriter for Gordon Brown MP
Rt Hon John Hutton MP Senior Lecturer in Law at Newcastle Polytechnic
Rt Hon Harriet Harman QC MP Legal Officer to Liberty
Rt Hon Hazel Blears MP solicitor and a North West Councillor
Rt Hon Geoff Hoon MP lectured in law at Leeds University
Rt Hon Ed Balls MP “An active member of the TGWU”
Rt Hon Edward Miliband MP special adviser to the Chancellor of the Exchequer
Rt Hon James Purnell MP researcher to Rt. Hon. Tony Blair MP
Rt Hon Shaun Woodward MP working for Esther Rantzen as a researcher on That's Life
Rt Hon Baroness Royall of Blaisdon special adviser to Neil Kinnock
Rt Hon Andy Burnham MP researcher for Tessa Jowell MP
Rt Hon John Denham MP worked for Christian Aid, Oxfam and other development agencies
Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP Economic Researcher for late John Smith
Rt Hon Paul Murphy MP lecturer in Government and History at Ebbw Vale College of Further Education
Rt Hon Jim Murphy MP Nothing before 1997 listed (became MP in 1997, has a Hornby train set)
3

,

22/12/2008 00:19:50
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4

subrosa,

22/12/2008 00:20:53
The Herald article says there's a fall in pupil numbers also. This one doesn't even mention that.

There are vacancies for teachers in Scotland. Problem is the modern teacher expects a job where they want to be and have no intention of moving for the sake of work.

In the 50s and 60s people were forced to move to gain suitable work. These are the people who built up the economy in Scotland.

What's wrong with 33 in a class? Back in the 50s there were 35 in my primary class and 34 passed the equivalent of the 11+.
5

subrosa,

22/12/2008 00:21:54
# 3

At least Sandra White's experienced the real world.
6

,

22/12/2008 00:23:56
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7

Fifi la Bonbon,

22/12/2008 00:27:30
Well, now, let's be fair. the SNP has only been in office for nineteen months. There are nore unemployed qualified teachers and fewer jobs, true, but you have to give the SNP a chance. These things take time. And while they have made promises, we all know that their promises are only advisory so it is unfair to hold them to the things they said they would do. Also, who would have been able to predict that older teachers would remain working until retirement age? That was completely unforeseeable.
8

UK007,

22/12/2008 00:42:33
#3/#6 RFT You bring something to these forums which something can be found everywhere s... Yep you have it in one "sugar".
You are very clever you must have recognised s... was a 5 letter word.
9

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 01:05:54
The previous Labour administration allowed the number of teachers being trained to increase despite knowing (or did they bother to check?) that pupil numbers would be falling would be falling by now. As usual the Scotsman is simply re-printing Labour propaganda - this time via their organ in the EIS.
To make matters worse they employ staff like #3 above to ruin discussion on this website too. Anyone care to bet on the paper being gone before the next election? How is the share price chaps?
10

Rosbrog,

Ireland 22/12/2008 01:57:26
As a teacher, working in ireland all i can say is that the situation is worse here. It is common to wait five to ten years to get a full time job. Just because you graduate with a degree does not guarantee you should walk into a job. 'Still living at home'. Whats to stop people like the two in this article moving out, doing any other work that they can get to support themselves until hopefully they find a teaching post.
PS this surely can't be a recent phenomenon as i recall this situation making the news the last four years or so.
11

Brian Hill,

22/12/2008 03:05:17
"An estimated 6,000 teachers are expected to retire each year, but many are reported to be staying on longer because of the recession, exacerbating the job shortage."

And this is the fault of the Scottish Government?

"The EIS leader demanded that the Scottish Government start policing and punishing councils that cut teacher numbers against the principles of the concordat funding deal."

Well surely we either have a deal whereby local councils are responsible for their spending or we don't.

At the moment we do, but if local councils choose to spend money elsewhere rather than employing new teachers, you take it up with them surely?

Quite clearly so much of this griping is Labour supporters playing the usual 'Let's the Bash the SNP at Every Chance' game that Unionists, especially London Labour controlled Unionists love to play.
12

Forward not Back,

22/12/2008 03:15:48
Is there an increase in the number of pupils at school as well? Surely the real measure should be pupils per teacher rather than simply the number of teachers?
13

I can see for miles,

22/12/2008 04:02:28
Yet another broken promise....
14

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 22/12/2008 05:45:51
Another day - another half-story from the Scotsman. Has anyone else noticed the utter, deafining, silence on the 1000 extra coppers 'broken promise'.

That's because the SNP are ahead of schedule in recruiting 1000 extra policeman.

Utter silence.

15

The Tin Man,

Le Pieland 22/12/2008 06:15:42
Yet more utter incompetance from the Sleaze and Numptie Party.

When will Comrade Salmond be sectioned under the Mental Health Act???
16

,

22/12/2008 06:15:46
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17

morris,

edinburgh 22/12/2008 06:23:00
You have to commend the HOOTSMON on successfully avoiding drawing attention to what they are in fact confirming ,and that is that if the number drops by approximately another 500 it will be the same as it was under LABOUR!

YOu also have to commend the Unionists for being so stupid as to not have picked up on that!

The stat which matters people is the student teacher ratio,not the number of teachers!
There are a few here who should go back to school and one or two who clearly were never there at all!
18

Phil C,

22/12/2008 06:23:08
Yet more Labour incompetence being used against the SNP. It's a funny old world! The onionists just love to live in la la land.
19

The Tin Man,

Gogshire 22/12/2008 06:36:58
Due to gnats economic scorched earth policy in Scotland and their concerted efforts to destroy our industries and jobs, Scotland was the only country in the world who suffered a fall in population.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that a fall in population is directly proportional to a fall in pupil numbers and therefore a fall in the requirements for teachers.
However, don't let another non story get in the of another anti Scottish government rant.
Your Edinburgh masters will be proud of you, Scotsman
20

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 06:38:02
Yet more SNP incompetence being used against Labour. It's a funny old world! The seperatists just love to live in la la land.
21

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 06:42:18
Apart from noting that the fall in teacher-numbers has coincided with a fall in the number of pupils, does anyone here have half a brain?

Where are the teachers for the promised reduction in primary class sizes?

The Scottish exec managed to loose the ability to implement their own policies a year ago - didn't anyone notice?
22

Watson,

Irvine 22/12/2008 06:44:53
Isn't the local government responsible for employing teachers? Isn't it true that pupil numbers are falling?
23

Phil C,

22/12/2008 06:54:49
#22 & #23 The Rusty Can

It takes a long time to train teachers. If there is a shortage of teachers, it's due to Labour's past governance.

Labour's falling population is reducing class sizes as we speak, so they can maybe take some credit there! I don't know how teacher training and recruitment is coming along. I just know that the SNP have education as a very high priority, with a promised goal of big reductions in class numbers.

Where's the problem there? A bit of patience from the onionists wouldn't go amiss.

24

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 07:38:30
#25 Phil Space

Don't be so sensible. Education is a very high priority for all the parties.
25

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 07:42:09
#25 Phil

However, apart from universities, the SNP have sold-off their ability to enforce the implementation their education policies, in exchange for the historic bribe.
26

,

22/12/2008 07:50:09
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27

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 07:52:08
Quisling Gogs
Go and get yourself a job.
If Fiona Gray can get a job as a 'journalist' then anybody is capable of getting any job anywhere.
28

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 07:55:17
Quisling

I don't remember you actually posting any comments that had any point to them. Why do you bother?

Due to gnats economic scorched earth policy in Scotland and their concerted efforts to destroy our industries and jobs, Scotland was the only country in the world who suffered a fall in population, errrm....
It doesn't take a genius to work out that a fall in population is directly proportional to a fall in pupil numbers and therefore a fall in the requirements for teachers.
However, don't let another non comment get in the of another anti-something rant.
Your Edinburgh masters will be proud of you, Scotsman
29

,

22/12/2008 07:59:35
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30

,

22/12/2008 08:06:31
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31

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 08:06:52
It's time for your creche, Quisling.

Begone
32

Mr T hornhill,

22/12/2008 08:40:02
Anyone know how the number of pupils has changed over the last year? Up or down ?

What are the projections for pupil numbers over the next 5/10/15 years. Surely that should have been mentioned in this article.....as #1 points out a 1% drop in teacher numbers isn't scary in it's own right but more info on pupil numbers please Mrs Journalist.
33

Ross,

Athens 22/12/2008 08:40:45
It's amazing how the Scotsman is tring every day to change public opinion.
Or sad?
34

,

22/12/2008 08:46:38
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35

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/12/2008 08:49:58
Scotsman doesn't let facts get in the way of a Labour Party press release.

In the year 2007/08 local authorities throughout Scotland increased their education revenue budget by 6.8% compared to only 0.6% in 2006/07 the last year of Labour / Lib Dem rule.
36

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 08:51:54
#35

Here are the 2007 / 2006 pupil / teacher ratios...

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/91982/0058104.xls

..Shows improvement in all sectors from 2006 to 2007.
37

,

22/12/2008 08:52:08
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38

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 08:53:35
#37 Quisling
I won't work. Even the thickest people in the country like Quisling Gogs are capable of discerning the difference between propaganda and truth.
39

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 08:54:40
#40 Rufus

All witches must be burned.
40

,

22/12/2008 08:56:26
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41

TWC,

22/12/2008 08:59:33
13 Forward not Back, Correct sir.

The main thing is that every day, in spite of press spin, the voters become more aware of Labour's incompetence in every aspect of Government.

The 2 teachers presented by Iain Gray must have started training 4 years ago+ and since we have a change in retirement age there were always going to be too many teachers.

Councils do need to become more efficient as well so more public jobs will go.
The same thing will happen in England
42

,

22/12/2008 09:00:09
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43

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 09:00:18
#42 Rules

The SNP admin effectively stopped last April.

...Parliament reduced to voting on motions to 'congratulate boating & sailing enthusiasts', when then sit for one day per week...

...Exec unable to implement policy..

...Responsibility absolved..
44

,

22/12/2008 09:16:21
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45

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 09:18:40
#48

That would hinder my quest to get a heart transplant.
46

Phil C,

22/12/2008 09:24:59
#46 QG

Rufus does so love pounding away at his computer. Wonder what he watches! Don't be too hard on him though. I think the message is starting to sink in.

Said the Blowfly to the Rusty Can @ #40.....

"1)SNP is good, Union bad.

4)If you are a Unionist you are a traitor. Plain and simple. It is impossible to believe that Scotland could possibly be better in the Union.

Remember Tin Man, adhere to these rules at all time."

The rest was pesh, but there's hope that there are positive stirrings in the brain of RTF!
47

Pocket Dictionary,

22/12/2008 09:33:48
Who wants a career as a walking punch bag? There to be abused by pupils and parents from all social classes. With no support from the employer and management.

A teacher came back from the Middle East to teach at a local high school. He gave up after six months because of the lack of discipline and went back to the Middle East where discipline is not an issue and teachers are still respected.
48

,

22/12/2008 09:34:01
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49

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 22/12/2008 09:46:24
Same old same old CyberGnats. Beware their Arc of Hostility.
50

,

22/12/2008 09:47:25
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51

Alan B,

22/12/2008 09:55:00
There has been too many teachers trained for the number of posts available for over 20yrs.

(Part of that excess go to England to fill their relative shortages.)
52

,

22/12/2008 09:57:10
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53

Calum10,

22/12/2008 09:57:59
Do the Maths

The average number of teachers has INCREASED under the SNP by 250.

Poor show by the EIS, obviously Scotland needs more MATHS teachers.
54

Edward,

22/12/2008 09:58:45
Yet another ill informed attack on the SNP from the Labour party press breifings
Does this paper not actually do ANY research?
Such as pupil numbers falling
Such as exactly which councils are not recruiting and why.
Such as how long it takes for a teacher to qualify in relation to how long the SNP have been in power
Some actual facts would be helpful instead of this Labour fed rubbish
55

,

22/12/2008 10:00:10
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56

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 10:03:45
#56 Sir Viv

If you check the thread you will see that I did post a link on pupil : teacher ratios that discredits the article.

You, on the other hand, have been posting about 'your salty porridge deposits'. Blinkers on?
57

Calum10,

22/12/2008 10:07:25
DO THE MATHS

The average number of teachers under Labour/LibDems: 56,950

The average number of teachers under the SNP: 57,200

The average number of teachers has INCREASED by 250 under the SNP.

No wonder Scotland needs more MATHS teachers.

The EIS is clearly not MATHS minded, a non-numerate body, and yet we trust them to teach our kids.
58

Calum10,

22/12/2008 10:10:36
EIS MATHS:

2 + 2 = 3

2 x 2 = 5

2 - 2 = 1

2 / 2 = 0

....and we trust these people to teach our kids.

WHAT A POOR SHOW BY THE EIS!
59

,

22/12/2008 10:15:19
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60

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 10:19:54
#63 Sir Viv

#60 Tinman

If you check the thread you will see that my post was in response to the dribbling #52 of Sir Viv.

You, on the other hand, took it upon yourself to copy my post with one amendment. Genius, you go girl, as they say on septic telly.
61

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 10:21:29
I am so clever, I can post nothing but abusive nonsense.

Love it. That's the kind of person I am.
62

,

22/12/2008 10:32:50
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63

salmondella,

UK 22/12/2008 10:42:33
The bottom line is that the SNP are not carrying out what they promised - and that they would be different from Labour. Time is running out for the empty rhetoric party.
64

TWC,

22/12/2008 10:48:32
68 salmondella,

Yes the time is running out for New Labour, everything is crumbling

All those teachers and Physios they trained 3 - 5 years ago
the Economy
Civil Rights
MPs being jailed
treasury leaks
Iraq
UK Debt
Yes the time is running out for New Labour
65

The Tin Man,

22/12/2008 10:55:19
#65

Sir Viv and me, he is we, and we are he.
66

,

22/12/2008 10:56:09
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67

salmondella,

UK 22/12/2008 11:26:42
#69 TWC - I agree with you - but if you are really honest with yourself, do you think that the SNP, based on their record so far in which they promised to be BETTER than Labour are a viable and serious alternative party which will solve the problems of today? Nothing that the SNP have done so far fills me with any hope for Scotlands future and that is the point.
68

radge dug,

22/12/2008 11:27:53
SNP TO BLAME FOR LOW BIRTHRATE-
'SALMOD STERILISING THE NATION BY THE BACK DOOR'

by Fiona MacLie for Pravdaman
69

radge dug,

22/12/2008 11:31:40
SNP are opposed in almost everything they do by an unholy alliance of Tory and Labour. They also don't have the majority or finance from London to do what they/we want. London would prefer obscene amounts of taxpayers' money going on war. Do we really need two new aircraft carriers or Trident?

Fact is, it was Labour who brought in the probationary year scheme.

Funny, how on the election of SNP about a ear and a half ago, schools started crumbling and teachers' work dried up?
70

Stop buy Scotsman,

22/12/2008 11:37:17
3# & 6# Rufus, can you go away to somewhere. Your life is so boring.
71

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 22/12/2008 11:55:51
Why is that teachers, unlike all other professionals, seem to think they have a God-given right to getting a job post-university? There are many careers where you have to fight to get work after gaining a degree...get used to it, there should be no special treatment for teachers!

Also, I suspect you'll find there are quite a lot of teaching jobs up for grabs, just not where the Scotmans twins wish to work...the problem uis so many of these folks don't want to move outwith the central belt...if you're too picky, you'll not get work...fact...
72

Walter Ego,

Durness 22/12/2008 12:01:57
This is a national/nationalist disgrace. Scotland deserves better.
73

Ewan M,

22/12/2008 12:08:25
900 less teachers, the SNP proving again they are all smarm and no substance.

The plonkers that come on her praising them as well. Read comment #73 he has it spot on.
74

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 12:17:29
I would like to know how many vacancies there are. I am sure I read an article a wee while back about incentives for teachers to relocate to rural areas, or for them to do their training there, I can't remember precisely.

I remember posting on it that teachers seem to be the only people who assume they have a right to a job locally. No one else thinks that.
75

G,

dundy 22/12/2008 12:18:57
The SNPites just can't see that their Golden Boy, Salmond is blowing the chances of achieving independence....Take off the tartan specs!!!

The SNP are being caught out (and sadly being exposed by a pretty inept Scottish Labour PR machine) as not acting in the best interests of Scotland.
All wee Lec wants to do is to pick pointless fights with Westminster whilst Scotland can go hang....
Surely after a very short time, the idea that everything is "someone else's fault" sticks in the throat of even the most blinkered SNPite...where is your pride!!!!
76

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 12:24:42
Look daft unionists - it's COUNCILS who employ teachers you numpties. Now if you can point a finger at the SNP for cutting the education budget then you might have a point, but you can't.
77

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 12:27:22
Council's decide their priorities. Personally I am not impressed with the argument that reduced class sizes are always necessary. Neither is Glasgow City Council, so they are prioritising other things. That's their decision - the biggest LABOUR council in Scotland - are the unionists going to line up to have a go at them ?
78

Arfur,

22/12/2008 12:45:22
The SNP INCREASED teachers in their first year in power. 900 reduction in last quarter - now what could have caused that - what would result in job loss's.......could it be this little thing called the credit crises which is hitting the UK hard due to the incompetence of Labour?......I think so.
79

Peter20,

Edinburgh 22/12/2008 12:49:02
Observer - you make a good point. However, what is the point in the SNP making bold election pledges about the number of teachers and then passing the blame onto the Councils when its "promise" turns out to be nonsense. Politicians who make promises and get elected on the popularity of these promises should be prepared to accept criticism when they aren't met. Either accept responsibility for not fulfilling them, or admit they were irresponsible populist pledges iin the first place. Salmond can't have it both ways!
80

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 12:53:53
#80 Ewan M,
RTF, SM753, Tin man and co are Trolls (at least one employed by this quisling rag) to destroy meaningful debate. They can't sell the paper any more and if they simply close down the comments no-one will even bother to visit the website. As all the press in Scotland are firmly in the Labour camp we can only fight for democracy by exposing deceit in the printouts of Labour press releases that pass for journalism.
81

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 12:56:56
88 I don't know what election pledge they actually made to be honest. I think there does need to be a change in emphasis in how information is presented, the SNP can enable Councils to reduce class sizes, but it's up to the Councils if they comply. It's a new way of doing things, and I don't think that's filtered through.

But I really don't expect things to work out precisely as the Government intended, there is the wee problem of the collapse of the capitalist system to contend with, I think stories like this will vanish soon as there will be much bigger and more disturbing fish to fry.
82

Alan B,

22/12/2008 13:03:40
#Daibhidh

Couple of points:

- What is the point in the country paying to train teachers if there are not enough jobs for them to fill. Part of the question is how do you better match the number of training posts to the number of vacancies.

If there are post outwidth the central belt that are not taken i think we should be looking at how we advertise for these posts and make people aware of these jobs.



83

livilion,

livingston 22/12/2008 13:07:49
With the number of kids to be educated steadily falling year on year, so that today there are only about half the children being born compared to 30-40 years ago, you might be forgiven for thinking that the pupil teacher ratio would take care of itself.

However is the problem not that with falling school rolls, funding to individual schools is also falling, resulting for example in the statistic that over the next cycle there will be about 20 primary school closures in the Edinburgh area alone?

I remember my old school in my day had dozens of temporary huts to house pupils. A year or two ago it was a ghost school with all of those huts and some modern school blocks empty and boarded up, neglected and falling into ruin because there were no kids to use them.

What happens to the teachers when a school with no pupils is forced to close?

Government funding for education is at an all time high but councils are choosing to use this funding elsewhere during hard times. Who are we to blame?
84

Alan B,

22/12/2008 13:09:29
#Observer

I agree with you there is a problem with central government saying they will do x, y and z but these responsibilities are really carried out by local goverment.

With the removal of ring fencing allowing councils to prioritise what they think is important which may not be what central government wants despite central government largely paying a large amount local government income the whole area is fudged.

There are a few options:
1)ring fence
2)central government make it clear they are just giving councils the money and it is up to councils who the spend it. (Problem is many services go over council borders and boundaries etc.)
3)a more mature and honest approach to democracy from the parties and the media - not going to happen.
4)remove services like education from local government where they are so high profile national political issues ie effectively nationalise it like the health service.
85

Calum10,

22/12/2008 13:17:01
The EIS are to release a statement, a retractment on their original analysis, a correction on their stance on official teaching figures. In effect an apology.

It is clear that EIS are not good at MATHS, and they are the ones teaching our kids.
86

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 13:17:10
#90 Observer

I fear you may be right about bad news to come. The fact that the Teacher ratios have only improved marginally under the SNP government will pale into insignificance. But can you see the headline - "New Labour culpable
for adopting Tory policies" as capitalism collapses.
87

livilion,

livingston 22/12/2008 13:22:21
95 Embra Don
I think that headline would be more likely to read:
'SNP failure to curb New Labour adopting Tory policies'
88

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 13:30:32
What a load of tosh. This from 2005:-

"THE number of pupils in Scotland's schools is expected to plummet by nearly 100,000 over the next decade.

Figures released by the Executive yesterday show that by 2016, there will be 631,000 pupils in state education, compared with 724,000 in 2004."

Fewer pupils = fewer teachers.
89

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 13:31:48
The tin man doesn't really get it. Away and check school rolls.
90

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 13:32:42
EIS = Labour at the chalk face.
91

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 13:32:52
Mine.
92

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 13:34:17
March 2008 - Scotsman.

"THE pupil-teacher ratio in the Capital has improved over the past year due to falling school rolls."
93

LVT,

22/12/2008 13:42:47
Workforce planning is a comnplex area. One thing that might help is making it clear to trainee teachers that they might benefit from doing their probationary year somewhere away from a university city where kids actually live- their parents unable to afford to raise a family in poky city accomodation. I'm sure the French state insists on mobility for new teachers- and pays them a lot less( maybe not now the £ has tanked).

The reduced clas sizes in P1 will be easy to meet in a lot of half-empty schools but in the popular schools in the commuter belt and new estates they just mean kids can't gain access to their own local school- yet more driving and inconvenience thanks to rubbish housing and planning policies.
94

G,

dundy 22/12/2008 13:45:42
So the SNPites now say that the SNP promise to increase the number of teachers was never somehting they could have implemented
BECAUSE....as #83 put it "councils employ teachers...."

So why did the SNP say they were going to increase teachers and reduce class sizes???
IF they a. couldn't do it or b. were not prepared to ring fence the cash to make it happen!!
DID they lie???
This is a meaningful as the SNP get...it stinks like their promise to save that A&E department by forcing the NHS area to make savings elsewhere!!!
95

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 22/12/2008 13:46:05
Generally I don't even read unionist trolls never mind answer them and over the past few days I can see why.

The word BANAL springs immediately to mind as one trolls through the 'Trolls'.

They have no case to put so they rely on spoiling tactics to try and ruin every thread which uncovers more facts about unionist duplicity and how Scotland has been plundered by 'British Nationalists' for 3 centuries now.

We don't have to defeat them here, they defeat themselves.

We should ignore them and continue with our comments on unionist propaganda pieces in the so called Scottish media.
96

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 13:46:44
93 I think it's about right now, Government doesn't just fund Councils and walk away, they regulate them too. But political parties need to make it clear that LA's are responsible for certain functions, they can enable them to meet policy objectives, but it's up to them.

If you take education out of local control where is the accountability ?

You'd just create another layer of administration as well. The more public services which are directly accountable to electorate by being under local authority control the better in my view.
97

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 13:48:13
103 It's obviously too complicated for you to understand. Away and have a wee lie down.
98

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 13:50:34
96# Considering the SNP have frozen council tax and made cutbacks in the public sector that could be seen as Tory policy. Low tax = poor services = tory policy.
The SNP WERE RECIPIENTS of Tory funding. They must be Tories of the Tartan Type.
99

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 13:55:34
Glasgow was the first Council to voluntarily freeze council tax. Labour.

100

G,

dundy 22/12/2008 13:56:21
#106

Translated this post means
I can't explain this because I have a SNPite brain.
101

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 13:57:26
109 I have already explained it. You seem to have trouble understanding it.
102

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 14:01:08
104# Far better to be plundered by Scottish Nationalist scum, is it.
103

Calum10,

22/12/2008 14:01:33
The EIS have now apologised for misleading the public, the parents, the schoolchildren and it's own members over the number of teachers currently employed in Scottish schools.

The damage has been done though. Who would have thought that teachers were not good at Maths?
104

,

22/12/2008 14:05:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
105

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:10:17
#105 Observer

I am of a different view. I think if we are really wanting a national system like education it should be run nationally.

As such, I think having schools directly funded by central government and then allowing the school to manage its affairs would probably be the best way. I do not think central government funding councils who then fund schools is the best way. Getting politicians out of education other than at a very high strategic level would be the best way.

The problem with the current system is education is a political hot potato. And as such parties of all color make promises at election time. But if most of the power really is at local level within the council it goes against that premise. Local democracy is pretty dead aswell as it has become a low participation election with many using it to vote on national government, encouraged by the media.


106

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:15:31
#107 Shamus

Your post omits to deal with the failure of labour to deliver over the last decade. Council tax has risen far too fast with very little for the public to see as a result.

Also you premise that low taxation means poorer services is not necessarily true. There are 2 aspects. Tax revenue. The best way to improve tax revenue over the medium term is higher economic growth not higher tax rates. If you can deliver higher economic growth along with higher tax rates then you could increase revenue more than with lower tax rates but higher taxation generally leads to lower economic growth.

In scotland we have suffer low economic growth for more than 30 yrs atleast.

Secondly the best way to improve services is not throwing money at them but running them better. One of the issues we have to some extent is poorish management of public services although i think education is not too bad.
107

Shamus,

22/12/2008 14:20:53
115# We are not talking about Labour failure here mate. We know all about them. This is an SNP failure subject.
108

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:25:10
#116 Shamus

I was responding to your post at #107.

You made the claim that lower taxation rates leads to poor services but that is very questionable as I pointed out. I was also saying that despite the higher levels of taxation rates that we have had over the last decade most do not believe we have delivered a proportionate improvement in public services.


109

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:30:57
#Shamus

I just think the tartan tory type of jibes are silly and immature. Can understand that type of debate in a tabloid type of forum.

At the end of the day all the 4 major parties are economically not that far apart as labour have become torish in their economic policies as they abandoned most of what they believed in the 80s and before. State ownership, punative taxation, strong trade unions etc, etc. Labour to some extend are more right wing that the tories were. And on europe the pro european tories of the 70s have reversed postions with the anti eec labour. Nuclear is the same.
110

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:35:55
#103 G

"it stinks like their promise to save that A&E department by forcing the NHS area to make savings elsewhere"

Why? That simply does not make sense.

Even the lib dems who agreed at the time to the closures have come out and said it was based on faulty evidence.

As nhs spending is about prioritising what you think is important. Be it buildings, drugs, waiting lists, key illness, equipment, prevention, number of doctrors and other staff or salaries. Primary care or secondary etc.

The labour view was shutting a&e was value for money by centralising services. The snp (and now the libs) felt this was not the best way forward to improve patient care within the priorities these parties think of as important.





111

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 14:38:30
#104 Brian Hill,
Spot on Brian
112

not-Hamish,

fife 22/12/2008 14:44:25
Haven't read all the comments but I assume no-one has spotted the obvious answer - transfer all the millions local authorites have to waste forcing kids to learn pointless Garlic to real education and they could employ umpteen hunners more real teachers!. Won't happen of course as politicians of all shades are too worried about losing half a dozen votes in Stornoway to have the courage to do it.
113

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 14:44:45
#118 Alan B

I'm not sure that Labour have abandoned punitive taxation. They have just Moved the punishment away from the rich toward the poor and middle income earners. The spiralling cost of the regressive council tax, over which they presided, being a case in point.
114

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 14:50:28
''pointless Garlic'' 121 - I couldn't cook without it.
115

Alan B,

22/12/2008 14:51:47
#122 Embra Don

Do not necessarily disagree. I was referring the punative taxation of the 70s which meant a top rate of tax of 83%. As such it was not set to generate maximum tax revenue but for other political reasons.

I agree labour have considerably increased the tax burden while spending even more plunging the economy into huge levels of debt.

Labour used to be again regressive taxation (the move from progressive direct taxation to indirect taxation) and are now have fully bought into that (tory) model (righly or wrongly).
116

moira,

cairo 22/12/2008 15:17:36
I have to agree with no 66. Teachers with experience are promoted out of the classroom into management and are replaced with younger, cheaper models who, despite their energy and enthusiasm, sometimes have problems with spelling and apostrophes - like the reporter on the twins'story.
117

Embra Don,

22/12/2008 15:28:23
#124 Alan B
Quite so. They bought into the system and it is on the point of collapsing around our ears. They appear to me to be well to the right of where the tories were pre-Thatcher.
118

Shamus,

22/12/2008 15:50:28
120# The SNP love in has started early today.
119

bean,

22/12/2008 16:07:37
The councils might have money to employ teachers, but not to increase the number of classrooms to accomodate these smaller classes.

For teachers to get jobs they have to sit on the substitute lists which require the ablitiy to work at an hours notice. Not very easy to do if you have another job.

Applicants for full time jobs who have done supply work get preference over teachers who have gone off to find other work and have been out of teaching.

Jobs that are available get filled with probationers, even jobs though the same post isn't supposed to be filled by a probationer two years in a row. They are cheaper to employ.
120

brownlie,

22/12/2008 16:12:11
121

What a silly comment - nobody is "forced" to attend a Gaelic school in fact they are over-subscribed with "hunners" of applicants.
121

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 16:15:26
118# Alan the issue in question here has nothing to do with who is or not left or right. It is about the failure of this administration and its education policy. All they have to do is accept their failure and get back to the drawing board and get it right.
122

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 16:16:21
Shamus

"They must be Tories of the Tartan Type."

What an original post!
123

GB's Dairy,

Ivory Tower 22/12/2008 16:18:42
Thanks, Shamus - I can always rely on you numpties to help me maintain the status quo that has dragged Scotland down for decades. Nothing that can be achieved in Scotland should be encouraged and any attempt at improvement should be treated with contempt.
124

TWC,

22/12/2008 16:23:29
74 salmondella,
The pity is that Labour were a Scottish party now they have nothing to offer Scotland.
This claim about teachers is false and it is part of the Malaise from which Scotland suffers.
Scotland needs a whole new vision and that has to start with Financial control.
Most of the policies SNP have, used to be Labour ideals but because New Labour seemed to lose interest in Scotland SNP stole the Labour crown jewels.
The Pres twisting things to support a failed Labour party is not doing us any good.
A big change is required.
125

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 16:34:44
131#
Shug. Hardly original but true.
126

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 16:40:28
134 Shamus

Parkheid indeed! What a slur on my good person.
127

steve52,

Kinfauns 22/12/2008 16:42:53
G,duny.....I note that you dared suggest the the SNP might lie. Perhaps somewhere in that excuse you call a brain ( if your not sitting on it that is) you might very well work out that politicians do not lie they just make promises that they know they cannot keep. This is done in order that gullible persons such as you will vote for them.

An example or three would be the Labour party sending its so called big hitters up north to Fife for the recent election. They were all aghast at the charges for home care but said nothing about the far more expensive charges in Labour held councils. Of course the got the backing of the press and in particular The Scotsman and those Labourite,s Maddox and Hammish @ co.

Then there was Jim Murphy stating on BBC Question time that taxes would not rise to pay for all the borrowing Broon was doing to pay for the mess he got us into. Surely not a lie, he is just a silly wee lad.

Then we had Mr Broon stating he would take the energy companies to court if the did not reduce their prices. Once back in London and the gullible people of Fife had re elected a lLabour candidate he forgot all about this promise...........meanwhile some of us are freezing our preverbial backsides off as we cannot pay for our heating. Might try burning the curtains as Lord Watson did.

Then we have good ole Jim saying he had promises from FIFA. An organisation that was found to be producing false documents in a Court case heard in the USA after they had broken a contract with Mastercard. But good ole Jim did not mind as he got his fotie in the papers. He also did not mind that both the President of FIFA and its vice President Jack Warner have both stated they wish to do away with the 4 home teams. These two can best be said to have dubious characters.

So the message to G, dundy and all Labour posters, is quite clear...if your looking to point a fnger at a bunch of liars look closer to home lads.

Anyho we have too many teachers, they are paid far t
128

steve52,

Kinfauns 22/12/2008 16:45:18
o much many for doing sod all, have to many Holidays where they then earn even more money. For this I really do blame the SNP as we now have more teachers than when they came into power.
129

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 16:47:18
135# Sorry Shug. I am probably like yourself and babble oot the first thing that comes intae ma heid. And nae offence tae ma Celik suppoting friends. It is the season of good will after all.
130

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 16:49:23
138

Me? Babble oot the first thing? You're possibly correct.
Merry Christmas ya big bear.
131

not-Hamish,

22/12/2008 16:52:02
129
Of course they're forced - the poor kids don't decide for themselves to take part in this utter waste of time - their parents force them to waste time learning this pointless nonsense. Nice you're all so happy with the 'silly' millions being squandered on Gaelic instead of using it to teach the useful languages they're trying to promote!!
132

Hugh Roscombe,

22/12/2008 17:12:01
140

Tha thu 'nad fhaighean.
133

,

22/12/2008 17:15:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
134

,

22/12/2008 17:16:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
135

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 17:20:35
140# Lighten up not-Hamish. It is an ancient Scottish language. It is not a threat to you. Many thousands of gaelic speaking people have served this country in the forces to defend our liberties. Silly millions are not being spent it is proportional.
136

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 17:59:39
142# Does that Scottish contribution to the world include our Great British Union!
137

SOFBTRC,

Far, far from Glasgow 22/12/2008 19:02:01
Who would be come a teacher these days? I could not possibly work for any employer that would treat me as Mike Barile's employers have treated him.
138

3baddogz,

Deepest Darkest Borders 22/12/2008 19:07:38
Let's face it, until the politicians manage to reduce class sizes in P4 to 7 as well as in the infants, then there are never going to be more teachers (per pupil). If there are so many unemployed teachers out there, then how come you can't get supply teachers when you need them? Why are there so many Canadian teachers over here? Why won't Local Authorities stop cutting their education budgets year after year? I've just left my job as a teacher to go and do something else for a few years (someone else got my post so that's a reduction of 0.001% in the number of unemployed teachers) - I'll probably go back at some point as I love the job - but I expect I'll be doing supply work - nothing wrong with that, but there's always plenty of it. Stop whingeing, and "The Scotsman", please report things objectively as you are supposed to. Maybe even do some fact-finding or speak to people in education (and by that I mean teachers or Heidies!!!)
139

not-Hamish,

fife 22/12/2008 19:27:19
144
Off at a tangent as usual, missing the point - many millions of NON-gaelic speakers have served this country better. Gaelic is a trivial, useless history-piece that should be consigned to the literary museum as serving no purpose so that the taxpayers' money spent on it can be put to more useful purpose for the greater benefit of all schoolchildren.
140

Darien,

Panama 22/12/2008 19:30:09
#144 Shamus: "Many thousands of gaelic speaking people have served this country in the forces to defend our liberties"

I'm sure they have, but your point is what exactly?

"Great British Union"

What great British Union might that be? You're not refering to the Gordon Brown-inspired collapsed economy and society still known as the 'UK' perchance? The one that will soon be bailed out by certain oil-rich nations, and in hawk to them for several future generations of 'Brits' to repay the debt?
141

Calum Crubag,

Alba 22/12/2008 20:19:11
#148 - Gaelic medium should be extended across the board, resources and teachers allowing. The benefits are there to be seen. Why not go and visit a Gaelic school?

The benefits of bilingualism are well recognised and the attainnment in Gaelic medium is higher than their unilingual peers - they even speak better English.

Our children have to be educated - giving them two/ three languages in the process is good value for money.
142

Calum Crubag,

22/12/2008 20:21:25
Trust a Scot to be so retarded and tight-arrsed about his country's oldest tongue.

Our oldest literature comes from a time before the English language existed. Gaelic is still living and only a dicatator would deny a section of the population services in their own tongue.
143

Calum Crubag,

22/12/2008 20:23:17
Funny how the EIS were quoted on the radio as blaming the councils and NOT the SNP govt for the shortfall in teachers? Not much of this in Pravdaman.
144

Shamus,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 21:21:10
149# You are a figment of your own imagination. But that is allowed in Great Britain.
145

Observer..,

Glasgow 22/12/2008 22:06:38
152 Of course the EIS are blaming the councils. All unions blame all councils all the time and vice versa. It's a never ending dance.
146

ricky40,

22/12/2008 22:12:29
148

What do you mean millions have served this country better. What bigger sacrifice can you make than to give your life for your country which a disproportionate number of Gaels have done.

There is no educational barrier to other languages being talk in exactly the same way as Gaelic Medium pupils are taught.

Did a Gael disappoint you in any way at some time in your life??
147

Shamus,

Glasgow 23/12/2008 00:42:57
154# That was an accurate statement. Not bad for an SNP SUPPORTER.
148

radge dug,

23/12/2008 10:47:22
Let's see more Gaelic schools. They don't cost any more, as the kids have to be educated anyway.

Unless some numpties here can prove that being ignorant in other languages is an advantage?

 

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