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Sir Menzies reveals Brown's secret talks on pact to deny SNP power



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Published Date: 05 March 2008
GORDON Brown held two secret meetings with Sir Menzies Campbell during last year's Scottish election campaign in an attempt to forge a new Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition and keep the SNP out of power, it emerged last night.
The then Chancellor tried to get the agreement of the former Lib Dem leader for an anti-SNP coalition – even though neither politician had the power to make such an agreement.

The secret meetings, held behind the backs of their respective Scottish parties, were disclosed in Sir Menzies' autobiography, which was released to the press last night.

In Menzies Campbell: My Autobiography, Sir Ming describes how he met Mr Brown twice in Edinburgh during last year's election campaign – once on Easter Sunday and once on election day itself, when it was clear that the SNP was ahead in the polls and heading for victory.

On both occasions, Mr Brown asked for a new Labour-Lib Dem coalition as he did not want the SNP to control the Scottish Executive and its £30 billion budget.

Sir Ming told Mr Brown that, although he was also against an SNP-led devolved administration, he could not decide coalition policy, as that was in the hands of the party's Scottish leader, Nicol Stephen.

Jack McConnell, the then Scottish Labour leader, was not invited to the meetings, and Sir Ming gives the impression that Mr Brown was operating without the knowledge or approval of the Scottish Labour leadership.

News that Mr Brown was working behind the scenes to forge an anti-SNP coalition will infuriate Nationalists and embarrass Scottish Labour leaders, particularly as Mr McConnell made it clear after the SNP won last year's election that Alex Salmond would be given the chance to form a government.

Sir Ming writes that Mr Brown first called him at home on Easter Sunday last year to ask for a discreet meeting. He states: "Like me, he was anxious about the possibility of the SNP governing in Scotland, our own backyard. Was there common ground between Labour and the Lib Dems to tackle the SNP together? He made a number of suggestions. I told him I would have to discuss them with Nicol Stephen.

"He then raised possibilities for a new coalition between the Lib Dems and Labour on the assumption that the two parties had enough seats jointly to form a government."

Sir Ming writes that this was difficult for him as such decisions were for Mr Stephen.

As the election campaign drew to a close, Mr Brown was in touch again. Sir Ming writes: "We met at the same discreet place as before. Throughout the campaign, the polls had put the SNP ahead of Labour. Was there scope for an arrangement between our parties?

"What would be the consequences for Scotland and our parties if the SNP used the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget to build support for independence over the next few years?"

Sir Ming also explains how the Scottish Lib Dem leadership team met at his Edinburgh home the night after the SNP's victory to eat pizza and decide what to do. "After two hours, we packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP," he writes in the book, published next week by Hodder & Stoughton.

Sir Ming also reveals that both he and Tavish Scott, the Lib Dems' election campaign manager, were against an SNP-Lib Dem coalition, but a deal with Labour was still a possibility.

Mr Brown contacted Sir Ming the next day. Sir Ming writes that he had to be "circumspect" as he was not supposed to "muscle in" on Scottish party affairs.

By the time Mr Scott went on BBC Scotland's Politics Show the following day, all forms of coalition had been ruled out for the Lib Dems, which is what Mr Scott then announced.

VICTORY FOR SALMOND ON CROSS-BORDER BODY
ALEX Salmond secured a significant victory last night when Gordon Brown gave his formal consent to the creation of a new cross-Border body to resolve differences between the various administrations around the UK.

Mr Salmond has been calling for the recreation of some sort of committee to sort out disputes since he came to office.

Paul Murphy, the Welsh Secretary, said that he had been asked by the Prime Minister to take charge of the formation of the new Joint Ministerial Committee, which will act as a forum for discussion for all the devolved administrations and the Westminster government.

The Scotsman revealed last week that ministers were close to agreeing the format of the new body. Mr Murphy said last night he would chair the first plenary session of the new JMC, which is expected to involve the First Ministers of the devolved administrations, and that Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, would chair a meeting before the summer.

The full article contains 818 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 March 2008 8:29 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 00:09:47
The more stories like this to come out the more untenable Broon's position is becoming. Lets get rid of these scumbags at the first chance.

Who said in 1997, "We will clean up politics...
The Conservatives are afflicted by sleaze and prosper from secret funds from foreign supporters. There is unquestionably a national crisis of confidence in our political system, to which Labour will respond in a measured and sensible way."???

Lies, lies and more lies.


Who said in 1997 "Remember, you are not here to enjoy the trappings of power, but to do a job and to uphold the highest standards in public life, we must be purer than pure" ????

Lies, lies and more lies.
2

Matt there,

somewhere 05/03/2008 00:12:44
Good Lord! Is there NO end to the vanity and control freak tendencies of Gordon Brown?
3

Resolutions,

05/03/2008 00:17:56
Suspected this a good while ago!
4

subrosa,

05/03/2008 00:18:17
So the future of the Libs in Scotland was decided by Ming Campbell and Tavish Scott over pizza? Kind of explains the disappearance of oor Nicol around this time.

As for Brown well he so disappoints me. To think some years ago I used to respect the man. What a fool I was but I've learned. He's only concerned with saving his own skin and nothing else.
5

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 00:24:48
3. I had pretty much assumed this was the case too!

How else would they stay in power?
6

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 00:35:10
It's official - Broon is sh*t scared of our First Minister!!LOL
7

walter,

05/03/2008 00:37:41
Is this another non story from this rag of a paper? Oh no it cannot be as this story is a derogatory article about Labour and the Lib/Dems so it must be good reporting by an excellent paper, it is only when they print a derogatory article about the SNP that it is a non story by a rag paper.
8

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 00:40:19
#9
Yes, do I detect balance here?
9

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 00:52:32
Awrite thair JJ?

Dinny trust the Hootsmon, they'll pull this story when the on-line editor gets oot his pit in the morning!
10

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 00:56:03
#11
How are you AJ?

Thought Walter had a bit of a point - I just like sitting on the fence - shooting when I see fit!!
11

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 01:03:46
JJ#12,

Same as masel! :D
12

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 01:07:18
#14AJ

Want a good fitba debate try BBC 606 - all teams have there own pages including the mighty EF - try it I think you will like it.
13

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 01:09:00
JJ,

They never publish ma comments fur some reason....
14

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 01:11:56
16#

Curse of the Moderator eh?

Catch you later AJ need my beauty sleep or I will loose my youthful appearance.
15

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:19:56
From the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/05/nscots105.xml
'Gordon Brown has ordered a review of the controversial Barnett formula under which Scottish people receive £1,500 subsidy each a year from English taxpayers'
In the same article:
David Cameron said "It's not those perfidious Scots taking all our money. If you replace Barnett with a needs-based formula, then Scotland will still get a large amount of money."
Sorry Dave dont trust anyone in Westmninster anymore!
especially using the word 'perfidious'. In case anyone is not sure what it means, the dictionery states 'perfidious - tending to betray; especially having a treacherous character
16

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:24:45
Always knew the perfidious Brown was a control freak
he wasnt called Stlin for nothing when he was in the treasury!
17

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:47:27
#20
Have just read that extract from Hansard, when Baron Foulkes stood up on the 15th October 2007 and spouted that rubbish. The guy is a two faced creep. He has the cheek to be a member of a parliament that he clearly does not believe in and believes that Labour should rule Scotland in perpetuity. the guy should be barred from entering Holyrood
18

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:59:43
This story alos confirms my suspicion's that Brown is covertly working to undermine the SNP government. He even is trying to control the Labour party in Scotland by having his own choice of leader in Wendy Alexander
If he can have secret talks with a leader from another party about controling Scotland. The question that begs to be answered is what else is he involved with, with his own party members!
Brown is being manipulative, as we see with, first the restriction on the budget for Scotland, then more recent the refusal by Westminster to hand over the £ 400 million which was tagged for council benefit, but which ,can be used for any other purpose as it is Scotlands money held by the treasury!. Now the next thing will be the barnett formula. Brown has his other lapdog, Jacqui Smith continually frustrating the work of the Scottish Justice ministry and not cooperating what so ever. There is without doubt a patern emerging that Brown is working to destroy the SNP government both covertly and overtly. Each episode taken on its own doesnt amount to much, but when looked at collectively, the stench from Westminster is becoming stronger
19

Mac Gill-eathan,

If I tell you-you die 05/03/2008 03:24:16
If ever there was a despicible wretch then it is surely that perfidious sleekit weed Tavish Scott, I would have no compulsion dispatching him with the appropriate round, no qualms at all, you unionist lacky's know where to put your bourgeois pleasntries by now i am sure!! Your all the same contemptious breed of prize rat bags.
20

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/03/2008 03:54:08
SO come on AM, try and defend these scumbags now!
21

donald,

glasgow 05/03/2008 04:03:52
Nothing new in this. The Onionist parties have always connived behind the Chair to the detriment of Scottish interests.
22

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 05/03/2008 05:20:07
As certain cartoon character says - "what a maroon!"

After Blair ran rings round him think fatty Broon would have known his limits and had his fill of daft smoke-filled-room deals, but some folks never learn.

And dealing with the Libs really! What a shower. Ming the Purseless could be trusted to keep his trap shut about as long as... well something that just can't keep its trap shut at all really!

So now we are going to have to hear endless conspiracy whinging from the Gnats.

Whit a carry on!
23

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 05/03/2008 05:56:36
This was mild compared with Labour's underhand efforts to kill the devolution project from the beginning. Maybe Gordon Brown is softening in his old age.

24

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 06:04:33
No surprise here, first the unionist parties propose Devolution as a way of cutting off the SNP at the knees. Then they make sure that it uses a proportional representation system to make it as effective as an Italian parliament. When both these schemes go down the pike, they decide that the only way forward is join together to oppose anything that the SNP proposes no matter how worthy (see story on Tagging as Jail alternative)to make their government ineffective.
They do however make one mistake, their backhanded dealing at the detriment of Scotland is all coming to light. I think we will see an absolute route of all the Unionist Parties at the next election.
25

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 05/03/2008 06:10:58
THERE IS ONE SOLUTION
"INDEPENDENCE"
CASEY PURVIS
26

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/03/2008 06:44:46
Labour is plotting with Lib Dems to prevent a referendum of Europe. What more proof is needed that Britain is not a democracy? All 3 main parties promised us a vote.
27

Banoo20,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 07:11:46
Surely this man must be held accountable and brought down
28

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/03/2008 07:15:48
It's absolutely extraordinary that this story has come out in public - an absolutely blatant, naked attempt to subvert and ignore the democratically-expressed wishes of the Scottish people, more of whom voted for the SNP than for anyone else, clearly giving the SNP the moral right to form the administration. How anyone can continue to vote for these cheats, liars and traitors is beyond my understanding.

I apologise for using the word "naked" in conjunction with Gordon Brown and Ming Campbell, by the way.
29

Ian C,

People Democratic Republic of Fife 05/03/2008 07:29:23
Are these guys actually Scottish ?

By the way the Labour dirty tricks campaign re the SNP has been going on for years.

Jim Sillars (the best Scottish Secy of State we never had) explained all this to me some years ago (and he was ex Labour).

Right now they are doing all they can to sink the SNP. Labour and Brown (and I have met him twice) are not interested in Scotland, that is for sure. They are interested in power. Stuff the people.
30

Thomas1,

\\ 05/03/2008 07:43:38
What is brown and mings?
answers on a postcard please and send to labour headquarters.
31

Cam3,

05/03/2008 07:46:31
Labour ARE NOT to be trusted.

Labour DO NOT act in the interests of Scotland.

This merely confirms what a great many in Scotland already know.

I recall the meanderings of Brown and Menzies last year post-election. I knew in a heartbeat that the 'Scottish' Liberals would - under no circumstances - make a deal with the SNP - DESPITE their party having a REAL opportunity of pressing home their own apparent portfolio. I hope their voters desert them after this confirmation.

They never gave a reason. They never gave a reason that made any kind of sense at least, after the SNP offered the 'more powers' third question (a key liberal ideal apparently).

It was gutless unionist politicking at its very worst.

Before the election the Labour party in Scotland at once:

- Spoke down to the Scottish people. You're 'subsidised' (for the 'we've never had it so good brigade]
- Tried to influence votes by singly contemptible lies i.e. cross border relationships dying, Balkanization, Scotland a target for Bin Laden, the 5k tax bill, ex-party officials in PP-broadcasts etc Utterly deplorable.
- Pushed themselves as Scotland's 'only choice'.

Scaremongering. Lies. Deceit. Please understand, this union means that ANY party who is directed from London CANNOT - CANNOT - represent Scotland. Like most truths, it's that simple.

Since the election of course, we've seen Labour do ANYTHING it can to spanner any progressive Scottish govt. ambitions, inc. their sudden interest in the 'more powers' for Edinburgh issue. Something they were diagrammatically opposed to but six months before.

It is astonishing. Simply astonishing.

For the 'we've never had it so good' brigade and Labour-voting 'ma faither's faither' division PLEASE do NOT vote for these people. You can have it BETTER and BRIGHTER if we throw their negative, shambolic lies to the four winds.This is nothing less than opaque political espionage and for Scotland's sake you should NOT put up with it.

LAB/
32

Cam3,

05/03/2008 07:46:48
LAB/LIB/CONS = Scotland in chains, always...
33

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 07:47:34
Shame it didn't work out the way Gordon wanted..Better for all the peoples of the U.K if it had.


the cross-Border body is called 'The All Britain' Committee'
The First Minster's (whomever they will be given they are all retiring) can talk amongst themselves then request to Jack Straw who then reports to the Prime minister...And then back down to the First ministers...
34

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 07:53:07
Well said, Ian C.

Theres no doubt that Brown is capable of any action that allows him to achieve his lifelong ambition of lying to anyone, especially the Scottish People, if it allows him to finally be Prime Minister of his beloved Britain. His actions in this case prove to all that he is one of the most dangerous of supposed politicians seen in this group of countries.

Charges should be laid, immediately after Independance, and the appropriate sentence should apply in a case of treason.

The SNP have always promoted the democratic process as the way to persue its aims. You can bet that Nicol was sitting in the wings awaiting his fate, when Browne conspired with Minging and Tavish Scott to undermine the political will of the Scottish People. Tavish must have dropped his bundle at the last minute. Besides his stuff ups, this is as low as it gets for Tavish Scott. The SNP Scottish Government and the Scottish People should take to the streets in protest, by demanding Brown and Tavish resign immediately.

And to think the moron Brown is in office despite never being voted for by all the Nations of these Islands. The poor English People are now stuck with him until the next election, when I am sure they will let this fascist dictator Brown, know their opinion of his ministry of corruption.

As for all the British Nats on this forum. They should be very ashamed for ever endorsing the actions of Brown and Blair. Treason by way of lying to the people and Parliaments of these islands over WMD's that have cost 1.6 million Iraqi/Afghanistan lifes to date. Together with this docuemented proof of treason to the Democratic Process in all the Countries.
35

eric,

05/03/2008 07:56:16
Secret! hehe The Union is driftwood now,Its like being several years along line from a dead relative you never liked!
36

Richardinho,

05/03/2008 07:59:26
What this shows that had we had another lib/lab pact in holyrood, it would not have governed in the interests of Scotland but in the interests of the party leaders down in Westminster.
37

,

05/03/2008 07:59:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 08:01:36
#38
"Better for all the peoples of the U.K if it had."
I don't see how having Government led by liars serves anybody's interest. Except perhaps the interests of the scoundrels themselves, and sycophants like you.
39

A Better Way,

05/03/2008 08:02:33
Nikstratos, you sad little person. And if this had happened, please explain what would have been next.

As much as you spout rubbish one liners on this forum. the majority on here would have assumed that you had some level of principles. Betraying ALL the People of the various countries is a reprehensible act typical of the likes of Mugabe etc. Please try to assume some form of priciples before morons such as yourself leave us in the hands of an unscrupulous Dictator void of any selfcontrol or respect for democracy.
40

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:02:59
Why do you lot of snp drone bother coming hear feigning shock horror at a pro-union paper then post your Garbage.

Why can you not clear off to another 'Nationalist' web site......your obviously not welcome at the Scotsman...
41

Ubi,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:03:15
Government of the people by the government for the government.
42

Gusto,

05/03/2008 08:08:24
Good for this newspaper to publish the story - must have woken up a few freelance editors, and a few nightmares for the resident ones.
What Brown was trying to prevent, was the absolute independence of Scotland during his premiership. Same with Bliar. Brown will try again - this is how politics work. No surprizes here. Or is it Sir Mangie trying to put a good slant on his own actions - he did go to the meeting TWICE didnt he?
43

EWB,

UK 05/03/2008 08:10:44
#36, Labour do not act in the UK's interests, either. Just look at how they are going to force through the Lisbon Treaty against popular will. No Parliament should bind its successors, but this one will.

#40, if the UK is driftwood, so too will Scotland be. Under Article 176a of the Lisbon Treaty, the EU will have power for the first time over the whole field of energy and Britain's (Scotland's) oil and gas reserves.

So much for Alex Salmond's fradulent aspiration for "an independent Scotland in Europe". The best wee EU region, more like.
44

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:10:58
#44

you mean like wee eck...........4'8'' is not little anyway

#44

Unless i am mistaken the holyrood parliament can choose amongst themselves any First minister and or the composition of any Government they wish. Regardless of party.

SCOTLAND ELECTED A DEVOLVED PARLIAMENT OF REPRESENTATIVES NOT A ONE PARTY STATE RULED BY ONE INDIVIDUAL LEADER.
45

bunker,

05/03/2008 08:12:59
The thing that sticks in the throat most, is the amount of Scots that are conspiring in Westminster against the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.
They have been found out and the harder they try the more they are pushing Scotland away from the UK. now they are threatening pulling the barnett formula.

Keep going, you are doing a grand job Mr Broon
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 08:15:08
Niko likes poems.

Good King Broon first looked out on Nicol Stephen.
When their seats in Holyrood were just about even.
"Come my boy let us unite against Alex Salmond"
"We'll put the Scots in their place, and save our wretched union"

Sung to the the tune of "King Wenceslas"
47

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:17:22
#53

Yours is more Horst Wessel
48

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 05/03/2008 08:20:00
#46 What about Government of the Government by the people for the people?
49

The Honest Lad,

Musselburgh 05/03/2008 08:25:05
so he made a phone call to sound something out. So what? nothing came of it and if the pair of them had believed in it then they may have asked there parties to look at it further.

50

jdships,

05/03/2008 08:28:14
44 A Better Way,

"an unscrupulous Dictator void of any selfcontrol or respect for democracy. "

That surely describes Brown, Salmond , Paisley et al.

You are really deluded if you think these people listen to anything the voter says .
Politicians are egotists by nature and massive control freaks by desire
Did not vote SNP but as I have said many times before am happy to give AS time to prove he is the right person/party for the job .
As of 5/3 "the jury's still out" for me !!
51

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:29:17
#50

Don't be silly the U.K Parliament could leave the E.U if it so decided
52

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 08:39:14
More or less normal, expected politicing, if you ask me. It shows any doubters that Labour and the Libs in Scotland are very much run from Westminster, with a local "branch office" and "duty manager" here in Edinburgh.

Ever tried to get an important decision from a duty manager??? Not easy...they always have to escalate upwards to the real boss....
53

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:47:54
The people of Scotland obviously cannot be trusted to know what is best for them. Gordon and Menzies knew better than the voters.
This explains the shambles that took place in May when the Scottish LibDems who almost shared a manifesto with the SNP could not bring themselves to form a coalition. They were told that they couldn't and had to find a story to fit !
Poor Nicol, can't wait to see what Alex does to him at the weekly Seal Clubbing on Thursday.
54

danielrober,

05/03/2008 08:48:05
What a very clever political action by Gordon Brown. Brown has made it clear to all in the West Country that the Scottish Lib Dems will vote for separatation.

Many people have suspected that some Lib Dems have been pushing for a stronger separation stance since they got rid of Charles K, as leader. Nicol Stephen, turned down the opportunity to be a miniters, MMMMM. Why?

So will the Lib Dems, return to being the Liderals and the Democrates, two parties again?
55

thinking,

Scotland 05/03/2008 08:53:05
what a non-article
Surely Brown was doing what most politicians do, trying to keep power and trying to keep the opposition out. What's new about that?
56

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 05/03/2008 08:53:15
Brown Out!
57

JB2003,

05/03/2008 09:02:58
Apparently Scotland's subsidised by England - think a few folks on here would like to check out this article as it shows that even the mighty Telegraph can stoop to gutteral baseless tabloid anti-Scots xenophobia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/05/nscots105.xml
58

McNasty,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 09:08:46
GB, MP and PM of GB will never let us down. The SNP that is.

As for SIR MING and GB describing Scotland as "OUR BACK YARD," it makes the skin creep.
59

Watson,

Irvine 05/03/2008 09:08:56
Just shows that Brown feared the SNP before last May's election and knew that McConnell and his mob were not up to the job. Now what will he do as Scotland has a Government that is working for the people of Scotland and not self interest? We must all remember what tricks have been played in the past and look out for what he will attempt in the future
60

Steve,

Bo'ness 05/03/2008 09:11:30
Gordon Brown is an utter disgrace, and an affront to democracy. Surely people will now see him for what he is. Power hungry, shallow and desperate. Remember him after election day, slithering out of his house in a blacked out Jaguar, back to London? Or slithering out of Hampden early when Scotland lost to Italy?
He doesn't give a damn about Scotland, just saving his own creepy neck. Pathetic.
61

JB2003,

05/03/2008 09:11:57
68 - McNasty

Ming and GB are both Scottish. They're referring to Scotland as their back yard in the sense that it's their home.
62

Doh,

05/03/2008 09:25:46


Sounds like the phone call was rather short and Ming reminded Brown that Nicol Stephen was the Scottish leader.

How long will we have to wait until we find out what Salmond said to Nicol Stephen about a coalition?

Anyway the SNP are happy with their Tory lapdogs now so all is well that ends well.


63

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 05/03/2008 09:27:13
It has taken 60 years, but I am happy that the population are now beginning to see the politicians in their true colours.
The back stabbing, the level of intrigue and conniving that has been their stock and trade all that time.
We are now in the time of control freaks, who are either subservient because of the skeletons, or that they have been caught with their hands in the till; then of course the greed factor prevails with their snouts in the trough.
Local government was bad enough with brown envelopes, but with Westminster at £250.00 for a bottle of milk, I ask you have we yet seen enough to do something about it.
64

kimba,

05/03/2008 09:31:56


Questions over £1,500 tax subsidy for Scots

By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 6:20am GMT 05/03/2008

Have your say Read comments

Gordon Brown has ordered a review of the controversial Barnett formula under which Scottish people receive £1,500 subsidy each a year from English taxpayers, The Daily Telegraph has learnt.
# How the Barnett formula works
# Have your say: Does England get a fair deal?

The Prime Minister wants the policy re-examined in an attempt to head off mounting English resentment over the millions of pounds of public money sent to Scotland every year.

Scottish parliamen in Holyrood - Barnett formula to be reviewed
There is growing resentment among English MPs and voters over perks handed to Scots but denied to them

Facing growing public anger and pressure from his ministers, Mr Brown has had to look again at the level of support English taxpayers provide.

Treasury figures show Scots are better off by £1,500 a head in terms of public spending than the English.

In a move expected to reignite tensions between the Westminster and Edinburgh parliaments, Mr Brown has told Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, to look again at the Barnett formula.

Downing Street confirmed last night that the review - which could end the much-maligned formula - had been ordered "to inform the debate". Mr Darling will present its findings in the next few months.
65

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 05/03/2008 09:33:05
It's not so much the furtive back-room arrangements between Broon and Sir Ming, it's the fact that their previous coalition was a failure. So, what do numpties do when faced with a problem? Yes, they do exactly the same thing they tried the first time which led to the failure. A bit like Ms Alexander's "re-launch" with the same failed "vulnerable (whatever)" announcements.

That's Labour. However, the question "what are they for" apart from trying to scrabble into undeserved power could apply to the LibDems. Both these parties deserve each other and the more they demonstrate their arrogance and desperation for power, the more we notice it and will vote accordingly.
66

Lisbon-Lion,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 09:33:35
Through out our history Scots have sold our country for Englands gold and this is another example!

Gordon Brown and Scottish labour don't give a damn about Scotland or our people, power, greed and self preservation are more important. I'm ashamed that Brown and Campbell are Scottish.
67

brownlie,

glasgow 05/03/2008 09:37:41
45 Nikostratos - That's right, pal, stifle all debate - as we have not had a democracy in britain for years it is pointless anyway
68

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 09:39:22
"Jack McConnell, the then Scottish Labour leader, was not invited to the meetings, and Sir Ming gives the impression that Mr Brown was operating without the knowledge or approval of the Scottish Labour leadership."

London Labour devolution in action, yet again.
69

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 09:41:59
"After two hours, we packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP,"
Slow eaters, slow thinkers !
Could they not bring themselves to eat haggis suppers ?
70

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 09:42:23
42. "The only people taking umberance are the Usual malcontent snp Drone's I note Normal people are getting on with their lives..............


Said Niko, who has posted 14 posts of stultifying stupidity on this thread since 6.50am...
71

Phillip,

05/03/2008 09:50:12
Maybe this will finally wake up enough of the people of Scotland to give a mandate for independence!
72

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 09:52:38
I hope Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon does cut funding via the Barnett formulae. Nothing like a bit of childish behaviour to focus the Scottish electorate at the forthcoming election. Labour will get wiped out (as the deserve) and will never again taste power anywhere. My wife's granny, who voted Labour all her life (because I'm working class) voted SNP last May and has been delighted with what has transpired.
Anyway on a lighter note, not long to our weekly episode of FMQ's. Highlight of the week watching Wendy. Lard Foolkes and Nicol get their regular humiliation. I wonder what Our Dear Leader thinks when he watches?
73

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 05/03/2008 09:57:13
How underhand. How surprising that a Labour politician could be involved in such things.

#78 Don't it feel good?
74

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 10:04:04
#82,

Spot on observation Ayrshire!:D
75

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 10:06:28
Parcel of Rogues.

The Tories were corrupt when they got kicked out of office in 1997.
New Labour Sleaze and Corruption are worse (hard to believe, I know).

Can anyone add to this list of corrupt New Labour Sleaze and Corruption party worthies??

Tony Blair.
Gordon Brown.
Lord Goldsmith.
Lord Levy.
Bernie Ecclestone
Ron Davies
Keith Vaz
Geoffrey Robinson
Peter Mandelson (twice)
John Prescott (thrice)
David Blunkett (twice)
Tessa Jowell
Stephen Byers
John Reid
Peter Hain
Wendy Alexander (lost count!)
Peter Watt
Charlie Gordon
Frank Roy
Michael Martin
Matthew Marr
Paul Green
Mike Russell
Lard Foolkes
Lee Jasper
76

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 05/03/2008 10:06:47
It's annoying, but who's really surprised.

Time though for the following, the media to follow this up by asking Wendy, and Nicol for their comments.

Labour and Lib dem suppoters to tell us what they think of this and finally, those unionists who pooh, poohed the idea of conspiricys on these pages in the past to comment, was Gordon trying to set one up or not?

Come on now, you know who you are.
77

Queen D,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 10:10:47
Last May this devious little ploy was hinted at in the press.
We are hearing Mings side of the story glossed up for his book.
I believe he had made a pact in Westminster and that the Scottish Libs were then told ,under no circumstances form a coalition with the SNP.
That must have put Nicol ( the Nose ) Stevens nose out of joint and left him with feeble excuses for not forming an alliance with the SNP.
I almost feel sorry for him. Almost ,but not quite!
78

Boggle fey the Bog,

05/03/2008 10:11:11
#69 Watson, Irvine

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and this brings up the question of GERS (No not the Teddy Bears),But the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland Report for 2006/7, which was due out last December, but will now not be published until May/June this year.

Perhaps this is what he is 'doing' next.

Given that Extra-Regio, Oil and Gas revenues have increased considerably in the past 3 years or so, and that Scotland's 'share' is 95% of such, he's got to 'Doctor' the figures to prove that we are indeed 'subsidised' by England.

In case you are unaware of the existence of this 'new' part of the UK, Extra-Regio, is a new region in the UK, that consists of the German Ocean Oil and Gas fields and is directly ruled from No 10 Downing Street London.
This region, although most of it falls within 'Scottish Territorial Waters' i.e the waters that the Scottish Government has to police and pay for the same, in terms of Fisheries Protection, and German Ocean* Oil and Gas Platform protection. has no taxation 'credited to the 'Scottish' account, this includes not only Oil Revenue, but also 'Corporation Tax' paid by the Oil and Gas extraction companies.
This 'money' is then put in the UK general fund, and 8.6% ( our population share) is allocated for 'Scottish use, a short fall of 86.4% or basically one eleventh of the revenue generated!!!, from Scottish Territorial Reserves.

I also wonder if he will get the Corporation Tax and Excise Duty figures correct this time round, given that RBS had a whopping great increase in profits last year, not to mention that Scotland produces 35% of the spirits consumed in the UK and 38% of the Beer.
Custom and Excise duty is 'paid' at the distilleries and brewery 'gate'.
But strangely, though, this money is being 'credited to the 'London Headquarters' of the distillery and brewing companies, although it is being 'collected' in Scotland.

Brown is a Rogue and a Scoundrel and his shenanigans bring Scotland into
79

Boggle fey the Bog,

05/03/2008 10:11:48
#92 cont:

Brown is a Rogue and a Scoundrel and his shenanigans bring Scotland into disrepute.

It's time!!!

#89 Harriet Harman (for a few hundred grand) ;-)

*German Ocean, or German Sea, the un-Anglicised name for the North Sea
80

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:13:42
#83 Grushka.

Absolutely.

With regards 'Scotland's place in the union' one only has to think rationally for a moment - on any manner of topics - to see we're being stitched sideways. Sadly, many people are unaware of the ongoing travesty that is the union.

Sighhh. Put up your feet. Watch 'coast' on the TV. realise that Scotland has a lot of it. We really are a people 'bound and made by the sea'. Then also realise that along this huge extensive coastline our links to mainland Europe, even other parts of these islands, are an absolute ******* joke.

It's all about the South-East.

What's depressing about people like Brown and co. is that Scotland CAN be something exceptionally unique. There is room for positive, exciting political ideology and change...

...yet all these rat bags can do is suffocate their own, tell us that we're not able, and ensure more of the same at Westminster.

I cannot understand Scottish unionism. Not because I have little time for unionist view's/people - but because they simply do not make any sense, from any aspect of common sense...
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 10:15:53
89. Kimmy

At a very brief inspection, I think you have ommitted:

- the Labour election fraudsters that a judge desccribed as "suitable for a banana republic"....
"Labour election fraud ‘would disgrace a banana republic’" - Times ...5 Apr 2005 ... www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article377468.ece


- Henry McLeish (muddles not fiddle)

- The chair of Wendy Alexanders constituency party (police investigation for fraud)

- Mike Watson (arson)

- Ron Brown (breaking and entering/ attempted knicker theft)

- Harriet Harman (illegal donations)

- Labour General Secretary (facilitating illegal donations)

- That Labour councillor in Edinburgh who failed to declare his £40k

In fact there are too many to list.

As Tony Blair said of Labour "We must be whiter than white to rebuild trust"
82

HughB,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:16:56
Forget about the sham and time wasting enquiry into the calling in of the Donald Trump plans.

LETS HAVE A BIG ENQUIRY IN SCOTLAND INTO WHY ALL OUR ALL MONEY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM US BY WESTMINSTER FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

That will amount to a lot more money than a $1 billion golf complex. LETS HAVE A MAJOR ENQUIRY RIGHT NOW!!!!
83

HughB,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:22:03
Forget about the sham and time wasting enquiry into the calling in of the Donald Trump plans.

LETS HAVE A BIG ENQUIRY IN SCOTLAND INTO WHY ALL OUR OIL MONEY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM US BY WESTMINSTER FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

That will amount to a lot more money than a $1 billion golf complex. LETS HAVE A MAJOR ENQUIRY RIGHT NOW!!!!

Westminster wouldn't want that at all, because it would make the oil money FIASCO too public.

Forget about Wendys kanagaroo review of devolution. Lets have a review of all of Scotland natural resources, and why they are being bled dry by Westminster!!!
84

ex-labour,

05/03/2008 10:22:19
83/84# Excellent posts.

89# Just give it a couple of days, there'll be more to add.
85

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:22:35
Right-on HughB [#96]
86

Hamish Scott,

05/03/2008 10:24:17
This is how things have been done for years, reprehensible as it is. What is new is that this sort of stuff is now boming out in the open.
87

Alan Reid,

nz 05/03/2008 10:25:23
42 Nikostratos, Why don't you f@ck off you LITTLE
pr!ck!
88

Doh,

05/03/2008 10:25:43
#77 Wardog

I dont see any reason why we cant believe MIng's version of events - after all what was discussed came about.

The SNP and LibDems did not form a coalition and also
Labour, the LibDems did not prevent the SNP from forming a minority government.

As I partisan observer I would say that the minority government is working quite well. The SNP can reach out and form majorities in the parliament.
As I said in the recent past it has been the SNP and Tories but I wonder if that might change in the coming year if the SNP pursue some of their other policies.

Dont forget that the LibDems voted with the SNP to abolish the graduate endowment tax and there are other policies in common.

For me, better for Scotland if they can work more closely togther rather than exhanging insults all the time (and I know Nicol has been one of the worst offenders).
89

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 05/03/2008 10:26:15
There are a lot of comments about Brown despising democracy itself.

This is hardly news. Labour have broken their manifesto promise on an EU referendum; the overwhelming majority of people demand a referendum but Labour despise this. The UK is like some tinpot banana republic controlled by the mafia.
90

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:30:11
#103 - I agree. Labour undermine and misrepresent the English too. No arguments there.

But Brown and co. have also used the 'subsidy' argument for their own end, in targeting Scots feelings on the union. A form of fearmongering. This has encouraged and smelted this common misconception in England and political anti-Scottishness.

But hold on, remember when Brown and co. said exactly the OPPOSITE when the Herald 'broke' with the story highlighting this as nonsense? Why? It suited what Brown was trying to do then (publicly emphasise Scotland's 'valued' and valid contribution in a union of equals).

Labour. You couldn't make it up. How can ANYONE vote for their Scottish counterparts beggars belief.
91

CowalDude,

05/03/2008 10:35:03
83 Grushka,

"Oil from Scottish waters should at least have helped created the kind of infrastructure that Scotland deserved."

Dead right...when we take back control...remaining oil revenues (including those from the West coast fields) will go to a Futures Fund for physical infrastructure (roads/rail/power/food production/decent housing) and intellectual infrastructure (universities/students/research) to guarantee the country's development. It will not be used to murder one million Iraqis and Afghans or to sustain some fanciful membership of the Big Boys club (UN and WMD ownership!)
92

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 10:41:26
Wow-not much love for GB this morning! Agree with a lot of the general comment above but also dont you think that Alex Salmond might entertain a pact-even with the Devil, at some time in the future if he thought it would further his Independence cause? No side has a monopoly on any of this "High Ground" stuff. Sadly politicians the world over inevitably end up disappointing us. Must say though-Labour are making a dreadful botch of things.
Of course yous could always vote Tory!
93

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 10:43:05
106. "Salmond might entertain a pact-even with the Devil,"

Is Mandelson still available?
94

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 10:48:29
Lots of predictable ranting on here from the nats.

For people that claim to be "well-informed", quite a lot seems to take them by surprise!

105. Even Our Great Leader has dropped the idea of a fund. It was shortly after it dawned on him that he would need all of it and more to pay for all his spending plans.

Try reading a little, even if every now and then. Go on.
95

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 11:03:33
107 Ayrshire Scot-:)

109Grushka-I also wanted to like Brown and believe he had some substance despite a lack of charisma, but he has disappointed. "The English need only sit and wait and laugh" -A sad statement-for me there will be nothing to laugh about if the UK is destroyed. As I have said before I have no prob with the aspirations of Scotlands people however they pan out but it would be a cruel irony if the Union is destroyed by Labours incredible ineptitude in handling the whole constitutional question. It would appear that Scotland is moving away in bitterness and that an English bitterness is forming in reaction in a self perpetuating spiral. This is not how it should end.
96

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 11:06:32
108. Great post. Not predictable or pompous.
97

Cam3,

05/03/2008 11:06:37
#110 - no, it should end on a handshake, with common acceptance of an unworkable union and the fact - for even pragmatic reasons - should look after itself...

...we'll not see the plagues in Scotland often cited by Labourites, and England can look to the kind of representation she wants.

And we'll be neighbours. Sounds ok to me.
98

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 11:09:09
#86 Jimmy the Pie,

Dear Jimmy why if Wendy. Lard Foolkes and Nicol are such inferior politicians. Why is it such a triumph for Alex to seemingly best them. As you know Alex was by common consent amongst all the parties at Westminster a poor performer and unable to command the House Unlike Donald dewer.

It is not that Alex has got better it is just the venue has got smaller and more suited to his limited abilities. Although this impresses the bully boy's of the snp supporters such as #101 Alan Reid who said to me

"Nikostratos, Why don't you f@ck off you LITTLE
pr!ck!"

99

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 11:09:46
110. Re. bitterness - see 108. Lemon, anyone?
100

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 11:10:24
113. That why Salmond kept getting nominated for Parliamentarian of the Year?
101

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 11:10:44
The Union needs a champion-an articulate champion who will embrace the arguments for scottish independence, listen to and respect the position of the Nationalist camp but forward the Unionist case clearly without all the pettiness and backbiting that we have seen from Labour. I know there are many on this forum who scorn the Union as a dead duck but there is a middle ground-a federal solution giving the best of both worlds. Obviously those at the edges in both the unionist and Nationalist camp will never see this as a solution but most people are not extreemists and the centre should and can hold. It would be a sad sad day indeed if the United Kingdom breaks up in acrimony.
102

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 11:14:53
Wouldn't it be something for a Scottish PM to be responsible for the break up of the Union?

How poetic....
103

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:17:26
We really should NOT be surprised that the UNHOLY ALLIANCE exists. We have referred to it for long enough and witnessed it just as often!
The only surprise is that the Tories (I presume)were not included also.Maybe they will be soon.
All three Unionist parties have good reason to support each other.

1) With out Scotland's Oil Revenues the UK cannot pay back the money it has borrowed but SCOTLAND can pay her share easily.
That means all three MUST retain the Union at any cost,anyway they can.NO CHOICE !
2) The Tories would never see power in an independent Scotland.They can only attain power, as long as we remain subservient.They would see an independent Scotland, as a threat to that which they hold most dear,their bank balances!
2) The Labour Party are people who came up through the Trade Unions, and see a nice fat pension and salary, and all you have to do is lie through your teeth to the Scottish people.If you do it well ,you will get a job on the front benches,a further bribe if you like.
Any body who thinks that the front benches are full of Scots because they are efficient needs a brain transplant. Its to buy their loyalty combined with Nepotism.If you are a minister you are looking at
100k plus and expenses (not to mention millionaire status soon plus pension)and nobody can ask what the **** you did to justify the claims you made, plus all kinds of perks ,subsidies ,and generally gravy train opportunities all over the place,or if you are a Uni graduate in law or a similar discipline and fancy a holiday until you retire, no questions asked (unless paid for of course) then this is the perfect career for you!There is also the problem that England is a right of centre country, and its progressively unusual for Labour to win any seats, as you travel South,
out with the run down inner cities.They need whatever numbers Scotland can provide, or they are even less likely to ever achieve power.
Sometimes they fail to achieve power even with Scotlands help
104

Cam3,

05/03/2008 11:19:40
Geoff, I don't think you need to be an extremist to disqualify federalism for entirely logical reasons mate - and please do bear in mind 99% of the time it's unionist posters who raise the tired old chestnut of 'fanaticism' as if it equates to being a civic nationalist. Although even the 'top-flight' of unionist MPs in Scotland AMAZINGLY still like to hint and massage feelings to that end, even when they're called on it - publicly - to retract. Did you see Nicol Stephens tiresome '..nationalism was a dark cloud over Europe..' comments to Brian Taylor in the web cast a few days ago?

Federalism simply will not put an end to cross border meddling, tired arguments - it WILL NOT. It cannot when you have two very different countries straddling each other. Different in terms of resources, politics, aspirations and population.

A clean and progressive divorce is required.

105

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:21:22
cont

The numbers of Scots was reduced,and whilst any reduction to reflect population is appropriate enough, any other reduction should reflect devolved and retained matters only.Clearly the TOries would like to reduce Scottish representation for their own advantages!
First loyalty is to the Labour and Trade Union movement and to hell with the people who elected you, who are too stupid to know you have widened the poverty gap anyway.It will appear in their pay packets, but they will be too stupid to recall this was Gordon Browns budget and removal of the 10p band.

What explanation would one give for the Liberals?
Ive been trying to work that one out since I was 16!
All I have so far is that they see whats wrong with Labour and Tory, but have no idea what to do about it.
They are a solution to nothing !
After that what purpose they serve ..................your guess is as good as mine!
106

Moscow Central 42,

05/03/2008 11:21:44
Campbell alway likes to present himself as a man of high principle. So why did he not blow the whistle on Brown at the time instead of waiting until his biography was published?

He and the Liberal Democrats will live to regret his crass comments. " Like him I was anxious about the SNP forming a Government in our own backyard. " What utter arrogance from someone who professes to be a democrat.
107

Cam3,

05/03/2008 11:32:30
#123 sterling post Jackie. Superbly put.
108

The Strategist,

05/03/2008 11:34:25
It isn't just a question of Brown being anti SNP. In effect he tried to manipulate the democratic process.

I'm afraid this makes him no better than Putin or Mugabe.

109

Cam3,

05/03/2008 11:35:14
#127 The Strategist

Indeed, sobering all in...
110

Arfur,

05/03/2008 11:38:44
Scotland basically lost independance because of scottish nobles/politicians who looked after themselfs instead of the people of Scotland. Sad how 200 years later there are still Scots like that.

As for the talk of cash, lets see how subsidised Scotland is when we are independant and take all our North sea oil cash.
111

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 11:39:25
#115
Don't be silly........

#123

Can you explain why if things are as you believe why are the 'People' not out in the streets protesting.
Or is only the chosen few who have seen the 'Nationalist' light and must guide the rest to the Promise land full of milk and honey.

And of course their is the 'Unionist' question

What to do with the 'Unionists' left in Scotland if(A VERY MASSIVE IF) Scotland was to become independent.

Do you Jackie priest have a 'Solution' a final 'Solution' to this question.........
112

Ryan Findlay,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:40:00

Mr. Brown if you please, read in your own tongue...

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory!
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name.
Sae famed in martial story!
Now Sark rins over Salway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands --
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue
Thro' many warlike ages
Is wrought now by a coward few
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane --
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O, would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour
I'll mak this declaration :-
'We're bought and sold for English gold'--
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

or, in your paymasters...

Farewell to all our Scottish fame,
Farewell our ancient glory!
Farewell even to the Scottish name.
So famed in martial story!
Now Sark runs over Salway sands,
And Tweed runs to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue
Through many warlike ages
Is wrought now by a coward few
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O, would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My old grey head had lain in clay (be buried)
With Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour
I will make this declaration :-
'We are bought and sold for English gold'-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

It is such a pity your rallying call is not;

...Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves a
113

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:41:28
127

Indeed and that is something which we should be very wary of. A progressively totalitarian state is what GB would like to see.

One day we will be known as the United Kingdom of GB (Gordon Brown)and NI.(Nae ither)!
114

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 11:45:29
And Jackie Priest provokes yet another yawn.

The same old bland and utterly pointless rhetoric that completely misses the point.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE 'RIGHT' TO LEAVE THE UK BUT ABOUT THE CHOICE OF THE MAJORITY TO STAY IN THE UK.

Why do you consistently fail to see that your ex-pat view is only shared by a minority of Scots? The majority, as has been shown in every poll, want to stay as part of the UK.

I'll say that again:

The majority, as has been shown in every poll, want to stay as part of the UK.

"Brown seeking to muster all the powers of Westminster to prevent the increasing move towards independence is the latest episode in this farce."

What increasing moves??

Support for the SNP is DOWN 2% in the last poll.

Support for independence 27% (also DOWN 2% on a year ago)
Support for status quo 57% (UP 5% on a year ago)
So after a year of Salmond desperately trying to pick fights with the UK, trying to show that Scotland is suffering within the UK etc., he has spectacularly failed to increase support for independence.

In fact, he has actually LOST support, his attempts to stir up resentment and anger have totally backfired.

Only 0.5% of Scotland has bothered to read the SNP's much publicised flagship 'White Paper on Independence'.

Only 600-ish posts have been posted on the SNP's much publicised flagship 'National Conversation' in its eight months of existence. Many of these are by repeat posters and unionists.

In that poll, 70% said that the SNP only won the election due to Labour's unpopularity, not because of Salmond of SNP policies. It was a protest vote.

The majority also want to stay with the pound, want to keep Trident, want to continue to pay for Trident, want to keep the BRITISH armed forces, want to keep the BBC....

Where is this "massive" support for independence that you nats keep on boasting about? Where are the mass protests to Holyrood and Westminister demanding independence?

Why doesn't Salmond arrange
115

Ryan Findlay,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:45:41
cont from #131...


...[a]t once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself...

Dear Gordon Brown,
Please remember one day we will have our independence, and one day you will be remembered by your own people in one of two ways; either a Scottish hero, or a traitous knave. The latter you will pale in insignificance to your forebarer, the former you will out live - in memory - anyone in your own nation since Wallace or Bruce.

Yours,

Ryan Findlay
116

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 11:46:16
Why doesn't Salmond arrange such a march to show the force behind his campaign?

Is he afraid no-one would turn up?
117

kimba,

05/03/2008 11:48:21
the subsidy is illegal anyway, it is Gerrymandering. So as the Scots are no longer keeping their side of the bargain and no longer voting Labour. The bribe (oops sorry subsidy) should stop.
118

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 11:48:31
#108 H.M. Perfidious Westminster seems a more appropriate comment than "predictable rantings from the nats"! If this little get-together doesn't expose the sheer terror and scurrilous behaviour of so-called democrats then what will? There isn't an iota of decency in the whole corrupt conniving bunch! Some credit to Ming Campbell for letting the facts about this be known! But why, I ask myself? He certainly will not be on Gordon Brown's Christmas card list this year!! Remember that pontificating buffoon(now a millionnaire Lord) George Robertson who said that Devolution would kill Independence "stone dead"? Seems that the success of the SNP in the Devolution forum is causing Gordon Brown to look at a remedy for the effects of stratology on the political elite! Devolution has, de facto, awakened the sleeping giant of Independence, once again showing how unable the unionists are at trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Sorry, but it's too late! First Minister's Questions on Thursday looks like being interesting! Bet Wendy dodges this one like a plague!
119

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:48:33
130 WE dont do anything with the Unionists.They have been defeated and will presumably accept the settled will of the people,( in the retention sense I mean ) and choose whatver kind of government they would like in an independent Scotland. They will be free to stand for election under any banner they like of course(just as long as they recognise that under international law any constitutional change will require an unambiguous referendum victory same as we do).
We are a democracy.We will remain a democracy.WE have no intention of denying freedom of speech to anyone.
120

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 11:50:31
Where is Salmond's oft-promised campaign to repatriate the Lewis Chessmen? Weeks of publicity on this example of "UK oppression of Scotland" and then........nothing.

Anything to do with the Lewis Museum saying they didn't want them moved from the British Museum?

Anything to do with the realisation that Salmond demanding the repatriation of this 'Scottish' artefact (although we all know it's Norwegian) would open the floodgates that would empty our museums of all the foreign artefacts in OUR museums?
121

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 11:55:02
#133 Highland Mighty You wouldn't be AM2 in disguise? He's been awful quiet lately!
122

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 11:55:24
138. And another delusional nat.

"WE dont do anything with the Unionists.They have been defeated and will presumably accept the settled will of the people,( in the retention sense I mean ) and choose whatver kind of government they would like in an independent Scotland."

This one also actually believes that the majority want independence and it is only Westminster that is blocking it.

Wrong. So very, VERY wrong.
123

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 11:55:54
140. Yawn.

Keep up, I'm apparently English.
124

kimba,

05/03/2008 11:56:55
The Scots are incapable of self government and they know it. Time to throw their begging bowls into the bin and make them work for a living.
125

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:57:44
133

The legality of Scotlands independence requires a referendum and an unambiguous YES by a majority.That is international law, It will never be the case that the SNP will even attempt UDI .
Scotland will only leave if thats the declared wish of the people. WE ARE A DEMOCRACY.

If you fear democracy then thats your problem!
If we had two referenda to measure demand for devolution why do you suppose that was?

Its because the position can change!
The same is true of demand for independence and even the village idiot does not need that explained to him.

You cannot make a case for the Union based permanently upon a measure of public opinion on ONE DAY!Thats all it measures,and history shows that a week is a long time in politics.Things can and will change !
Evern you said that SNP support was down 2% . You succesfully proved yourself wrong !
126

Ryan Findlay,

05/03/2008 11:58:22
PM Gordon Brown,

Please read posts #131 and #134, and reply with your thoughts.

Yours,

Ryan Findlay.
127

walter,

05/03/2008 12:00:57
#117
Now is the time for the voice of Scotland to be heard.

Why then do the nats not listen to the voice of Scotland and accept that the majority wish to remain part of the UK.
As someone pointed out the other day on these threads the SNP have one (1) more seat in Holyrood than Labour the 3 Unionist parties have 32 seats more than the governing party, 2/3 of Scots voted for Unionist parties.
Even with the SNP receiving 32.9% of the vote poll after poll have shown that support for independence is lower than that meaning some of those that voted for the SNP do not want the union to end either.
The voice of Scotland is for the union not as seen suggested on here time and again from nats for independence or in support of the SNP.
128

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:01:45
Highland Mighty/Nick the devil. Don't sound so naive.

Or rather, do you believe we're as stupid as you think?

A few factoids for your sadly beleaguered mindset.

- The situation Scotland finds herself in MEANS that you're very unlikely to see 500,000 overnight on the streets. This isn't Sarajevo. But things are nevertheless moving quickly in the few years Web 2.0 and improved mass media have connected 'discussion' to that end. What is very real is the power exerted upon the nation by British mass media.

- Again you spout the same garbage with regards votes for the Lab/Tor/Lib as being somehow a 'vote for the union'. Get REAL about the factors that motivates people to vote at all. You honestly think people vote with a proms mindset? What a moon unit. Much of my family vote Labour. Why? 'Cos that's what they always did. Union Jacks hanging off the sill? Don't think so matey. Attitudes are changing and you'd need to be blind as a sea slug not to realise that.

- Alternatively, you can bet your bottom dollar that 90% of those who vote SNP vote knowing that the central aim is independence.

- ...and the stats with Wendy's (sorry, Gordon's now - right?) farcical 'more powers' constitution response are what exactly??

- Please don't band stats about. If you're honestly suggesting SNP support has not steadily risen in the last twenty years - and continues to do so - you're smoking some bad parchment. Gordon Brown and his behaviour empirically spells out that he will not tolerate the very real threat of Scotland 'waking up'.

129

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 12:02:18
# 139 Highland Mighty Grasping at straws comes to mind. Stick to the subject! Brown has been shown he is a traitor to his own country. He lied about our oil, he financed an illegal war, he wants to eradicate a legitimately elected political party and will use underhand means to achieve this. He is like his predecessors at Westminster "Power Mad at any cost". However they are found out eventually. The sooner the better with this one.
130

subrosa,

05/03/2008 12:05:50
I just wonder what it was Ming wanted that Gordon wouldn't give in order for Ming to say yes.
131

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:07:20
The Barnett subsidy should not only be revoked but the extra Scots have recieved for 3 decades paid back to England.
132

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:08:14
141

You are an idiot!I believe no such thing,but I need to measure this so I know what my position is,otherwise I become an arrogant know everything like you!

How can I believe that the majority want independence when I suppport a party who want a referendum to establish what support there is ?
I favour independence, yes but I am a democrat where you are just plain stupid !

Im accepting the declared wish of the people. If your going to try to insult me take your IDIOT hat off and make sense .
133

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:09:50
134. TO--ER!
134

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:09:58
#150 - Kimba, go away with your labourite doctrine. Let intelligent people stick on topic and discuss what's required.

As a nationalist, you'll appreciate that I'm ALL for fiscal autonomy from England - and then you EngyWengies can look after yourself, as you should, minus our oil/land resource/water etc. Fairs fair - no more 'subsidys' to Scotland and Wetsminster looking after Lond...I mean England. Right?

Though, I do want good neighbours. We need someone to sell our energy surplus to!
135

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 12:11:38
147. So your argument in the face of majority public opinion in favour of staying part of the UK is what? More unsubstantiated claims and baseless rhetoric?

Don't forget that 25% of the SNP's voters in the last election are against independence.

148. First, which court or other political/legal entity has ever declared the Iraq War as 'illegal'?

How has he lied about our oil?

And as for "eradicating a legitimately elected party", get a grip. The SNP are not the majority party but a minority and it is perfectly valid for other parties to create a coalition that has more seats and would therefore take away power. It could still happen!

I am clearly not the one grasping at straws here.

And all these experts in 'international law'. Can any one of you actually provide a link to these laws that you so often refer to?
136

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:14:43
What about English independence? Scotland, Wales
and Ireland all want/have theirs, isn't it time that
the English accept that we do get a different
(usually worse) deal with the NHS, prescription
charges, tax/government funding, education,
housing laws and (now) hospital parking... and
campaign for our own English Independence?
137

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:16:06
150 Kimba YOu dont even begin to understand economics ,If you did you would realise that an independent Scotland would contribute Zero into the Westminster government and Barnett does not apply since its a mechanism within the UK.

Its an internal method of allocation and takes no account of what is paid into Government by regions,only how it is allocated.
The real comparison is between what Scotland gives to Westminster compared to what she gets back, since that figure is what independent Scotland would retain. IT has absolutely nothing to do with the Barnett formula.If you had a brain you would know that.

You are an embarrassment to English education Why dont you either get a brain or use what little you do have and shut up.
138

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 12:16:36
147. What is this "situation" that we find ourselves in that makes marches demanding independence unlikely?

If such numbers can be amassed for the Poll Tax demos, then why not for something as big and important as independence??

Is it 'lack of interest' perhaps?
139

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:17:43

England wants the money back.
140

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 12:17:57
Morris, take your childish insults somewhere else.

You have become irrelevant and a waste of web-space.
141

HEN BROON 5,

05/03/2008 12:18:05
Is it not significant that the last great bastion of unionism, Paisley, has stood aside in NI? Maybe at last we will see real progress there as we are enjoying here.

The wild claims regarding the number of voters who would vote for the union are now absurd. Even the evidence on political forums such as this show us that as we are left with the stragglers who can do no more than howl at the moon as their paranoia and madness consumes them.

The behaviour of the unionist establishment on this forum reflects the desperation we know has infected Maggie Broon and his snobby unionist elite, they are yesterdays news condemned to the dustbin of sleaze and propaganda and ridicule, of which they are the architects.

The unionist gang hut at The Scotsman must have been issued with waterproof key boards to repel the dribbling and foam dripping from there rabid gobs, what poor demented souls they have become it is quite painful to watch.

Over at The Herald forum they have even advertised for a unionist poster to defend the union but no one has stepped up to the plate. It will shortly be as embarrassing to announce unionist credentials as admitting to have been a Tory in Scotland. Meanwhile the SNP are just cruising over the horizon under full sail with no opposition to speak of, given a fair wind we shall soon be free of this corrupt and stagnant union.

The Scottish Raj has ruled the English for decades which shows how weak and effete they have allowed themselves to become. Their country is now so over run that they are terrified of Scotland leaving their union as they will never be able to govern them selves. Scotland will very soon depart taking her talent and riches with her leaving the dregs to flounder around Westminster.

We are about to take our rightfull place amongst the free independent nations of Europe, independence is natural. The good burgers of Berwick on Tweed will also be rescued from the corruption of England, have no fear Berwickers we shall b
142

Arfur,

05/03/2008 12:19:11
Highland Mighty - still talking your usual tripe i see.
143

HEN BROON 5,

05/03/2008 12:20:20
We are about to take our rightfull place amongst the free independent nations of Europe, independence is natural. The good burgers of Berwick on Tweed will also be rescued from the corruption of England, have no fear Berwickers we shall bring you home.

Lets see if the unionist establishment have the courage to vote for a referendum tonight to save them from the EU bogie man. Shivers are running round Westminster today looking for spines to run up.

GOD BLESS PRIME MINISTER SALMOND AND HIS NOBLE CABINET.

ALBA GU BRATH.
144

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:21:25
Highland misery. You're way off key sonny.

Again - DO NOT state that people voted 'for the Union'. What an absurd notion.

25% eh?

What the posters are saying, akin to the vibe from other small vibrant nations is that we'd rather save our money than kill people - period. I realise this is a difficult concept, but you can respond with all the warmongering 'its worth it' rhetoric you can to Labour directly. I'm not interested.

Your thoughts about the Scottish public supporting Iraq and Trident are HILARIOUS.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6752089.stm

The manifest will of the BIGGEST party in Scotland. Our govt. and the whole parliament at large.

Give me a nudge if you actually think Labour are about to trundle over this [two way street nonsense]. That's called political suicide.

Finally, I think we've already went down the road of the Lib/Lab pacts tramping over the BIGGEST party, post election. It didn't happen. Unless you're suggesting two differing separate political parties can band together because they share a commonality with regards the constitution?

Yawnnnnnnnnnn.

So much energy spent on playing the country's modest and natural aspirations down. How very sad...

145

Scotland to prosper...,

05/03/2008 12:23:55
Gordon Brown has been accused of approaching another political party with a view to altering the outcome of an election. As correctly pointed out, this puts Brown on a par with some of the worlds more unsavory characters (Putin etc)

This is a slap in the face to all that voted last year. Not allowing a democratic vote to conclude to its natural outcome is nothing short of criminal.

How dare Brown attempt to manipulate the system in order to refuse power to those democratically voted in. It shouldn’t matter who you vote for, there should be across the board condemnation for such actions.
146

HEN BROON 5,

05/03/2008 12:24:45
156 morris,edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:16:06


The English gene pool has become very diluted, the one you mention who exists in the shallow end has actually put the "P" in gene pool ;o)
147

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:25:07
Kimba - you need another thread mate.

England is getting a raw deal, all of it's own at the moment - why? LABOUR and GORDON BROWN that's why.

We are ALL for you guys getting your own way. i'm a BIG supporter of CEP. But please, stop spouting garbage along the lines of Scotland owes...

...that, frankly, is utter rot - and you (ironically) are merely believing the subsidy fearmongering rhetoric LABOUR spout to Scots people pre-election...
148

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:26:23
I really don't see any need for the English to pay the Scots in order to get cheek from them.
149

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:28:11
If the Scots can afford to subsidise their old in care and their young at university when the English can't, it's obvious they are awash with English money and are getting far too much of it.
150

Memyself&I,

05/03/2008 12:29:12
No big deal.
Just a shame they couldn't come to some kind of agreement.
151

Guga II,

Rockall 05/03/2008 12:30:16
Just what you would expect from a Stalinist, totalitarian, control freak of a liar and charlatan like Maggie Broon; and his New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party.
152

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:30:54
The biggest mistake was giving scotland, and wales, it's own parliament. whoever heard of any country giving it's regions it's own parliament?
153

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 12:32:48
170. "Meanwhile, the Scots were bled dry of any decent development in the country whilst funding the strengthening of centralised power in south-east England."

That, and that alone, proves you are yet ANOTHER ex-pat nat.
154

subrosa,

05/03/2008 12:33:30
# 167

I don't see the need either. You've enough cheek of your own.
155

A Voice From SCOTLAND ;o),

BONNIE SCOTLAND THE BRAVE 05/03/2008 12:33:34
As it always has been London interfering in Scottish affairs. They could not even fix the election they are so thick.

Excellent post Hen, keep up the good work, you have beaten the unionist nutters into submission.
156

Miss Jean Brodie,

05/03/2008 12:33:40
Use all of Scotlkands budget to form an army and invade england - let’s extend oor borders - rename the country the Scottish Isles and be done wi it!
157

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 12:34:21
172. Kimba, are you serious? Federal states?

Ah, are you really Kimba or has a nat hijacked your username again?
158

Arfur,

05/03/2008 12:35:02
#168 kimba - f@ck off you tw@t, English money????? thats a laugh. Please tell me exactly which english exported product brings in all this cash to your country..... the tunocks tea cake perhaps?
159

John B Dick,

Rothesay 05/03/2008 12:35:11
So Sir Menzies understands devolution and Gordon Brown doesn't. Gordon Brown should have known before he asked that the LibDems were organised differently (they are fedaralists after all) so why did he waste his time trying to do do deals with the wrong man?

Think the unthinkable. Maybe he just isn't as bright as his opponents give him credit for. Not evil, just dim.

If you Google Gertrude Himmelfarb you will get an influential American right wing historian who is much admired by GB and whose logic and reasoning are of a breathtakingly low quality. If you read and listen to her lecture it will lower your opinion of GB, American universities and historians.

If London Labour had kept out of the campaign entirely they would still be in power in Scotland. People on the ground knew better. JMcC lost his job because he was unable to differentiate Scottish Labour from style-over-substance New Labour.

We don't need independence as a nation, but the Scottish Labour Party does. If they can't get it any other way, committed Scottish Labour party members should vote for independence in a secret ballot.
160

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:35:49
159

So people who do not agree with you are irrelevant and a waste of web space are they ? Only people who agree with you should be allowed.
Oh dear I called him arrogant and a know all.How could I have concluded such a thing, when he shows such democratic credentials as we witness before us?
I repeat ,I abide by democratic processes,and you have nothing to fear from democracy.Your only fear is that democracies usually get what the deserve in theory.In your case ,I must confess however that I can see why that might pose a problem.



161

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:37:01
#172 - aye right Kimba. You're a wind-up merchant then? Albeit, a really boring, unfunny one ;o)

**** off back to school now son.

I cannot wait to see England without Scotland. Boy, have you a struggle on your hands...
162

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:37:41
170.The celts have had about £80-100 billion out of England since they started in 1976 , probably more if you include associated costs .
Never asked the English
163

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:39:52
172 Spain for a start. Try Catalonia (Barcelona)for a holiday!
Europe is full of regional assemblies!

You must be an SNP member here to wind up the debate surely!
You cannot possibly be that stupid.
The minimum number of human brain cells required to sustain human life is higher than those evident in your postings !
164

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 12:40:14
Thanks to all for your comments-a lively debate indeed!

Cam3-Ta for comment mate-I still think a federal soltion is viable. The USA supports one of the most ethnically ,politically and geographically diverse nations on earth yet seems to work well. I think that the peoples of britain have much more in common than that which seperates them-shared language,geography,history,culture,institutions etc.. The bottom line is that Scottish nationalism will not disappear so it boils down to a Quebec like situation in many respects-will this fester forever, will Unionists eventually become "Gatvol"(lovely local expression meaning fed-up,sick to death) and throw in the towel, or can Nationalism be defused by ceding full internal self government including tax powers to ALL four Home nations whilst a Federal Government retains Defence and foreign Affairs and other matters of agreed mutual interest. Do we really want to see a britain split into Cornwall,Cymru,Scotland,England and who knows what else? Asfor trident, for example, there are Many in england who oppose this weapon. Do we then fragment England along these lines?
165

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:41:48
#182 - eh?? LOL!!!

Have you bumped your head? Here's a Q for you. Answer it.

Q: While dismissing Scotland's pro-nationalist thoughts about 'surviving as a nation' did Maggie Thatcher COVER-UP and steal the true value/impact of Scotland's oil wealth?

A: Yes!

Here's another.

Q: If Scotland had no resources, acres of land and space, better water, oil etc. would the 'Union' be as it is now?

A: NO! Because the only reason Scotland is sought so is because of wealth, and English futures. End of.
166

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:41:49
181.And of course, should the Barnett formula be changed and Scotland get less money, the SNP will blame the failure of their economic policies on NuLab. The government needs to tread carefully, to ensure the SNP are exposed as the charlatans that they are. Long live the Union!
167

thinking,

Scotland 05/03/2008 12:43:01
#84
I wasn't agreeing with it, I was stating fact, not what it should be.
Politicians are, on the whole, not what they should be. The only way to change things is to elect honourable people. That will only work if they stand for election and the electorate look at the individuals they want to represent them, not just voting a certain party way because they, and their families, always have.
168

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:44:42
186.Scottish oil contributes about £6 Billion a year to the Treasury, Whisky about £2 Billion.

England gives £30 Billion a year to Scotland.

Thus England is potentially £22 billion a year better off if Scotland supports itself.

Could Scotland support itsef, the figures suggest not.
169

Miss Jean Brodie,

05/03/2008 12:45:02
Thanks to the rapid rate of communication which now knows no borders - countries will soon be a thing of the past - anarchy for the free world - it’s comin’ some time maybe ! ha ha !

Independence for the rabbit hole - third along frae the big stain by the river bank at the edge o the we village in a region on a land mass on planet earth floating in th esolar system zoomin aroond the universe FREEDOM!
170

Nik,

Embra 05/03/2008 12:45:09
Hi Kimba,

I see in your comment at 143 that you are repeating Paul Husbands' comment on the Telegraph website, which was made at 8:59am.

Are you that thick that you can't post in your own words?
171

Arfur,

05/03/2008 12:46:18
#182 well since the oil industry in Scotland has brought £200 billion (study carried out by moneyweek.com) to the country in the last 30 years that means for every one pound we have brought in we have recieved 40p back.
172

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 12:46:20
#192,

She is and what's more, she gets worse everyday!:D
173

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 05/03/2008 12:48:11
Pardon me if I digress! Has anyone noticed how the comments column is not available on certain topics. I note that Wendy "I didn't know" Alexander story was one where the comments section was pulled off, and also the tax & gun story, also had the comments taken off too.
Could it be that some government department is gagging the public? And, could it be back handers are being paid?
Dare Scotsman Publications, or government reply to this, TRUTHFULLY ?????
174

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:50:33
#185 Geoff

Thanks Geoff. My comments:

The USA hasn't nec. succeeded in political harmony - at all - since its inception. Also, the population, per state, lends itself more to their shape of govt.

Scotland does have a lot of similarities with England, as do other nations with Scotland and England - but the tangible factors that give voice to nations is being denied Scotland. We therefore have to look at the realities of the countries existing as they are just now. It's not fair. On anyone. Post devolution politics means political plate spinning, and this has whittled down to issues not really 'with' the people - namely political survival of the Labour party.

Nationalism isn't a 'festering' force. Wrong mindset. It's a liberating, ideological and international movement that merely seeks proper and appropriate governance.

If a NATION says NO to Iraq then no one body, federal or no, should be able to trample over that will.

I'm all for mutual respect and interest. It is not happening now. It has never happened in the history of the union. And it cannot be sustained in any one body.

If England as a nation chooses Trident, sobeit. the nation speaks. As ours does, just now. Not Scotland's problem mate.
175

Cam3,

05/03/2008 12:51:31
Kimna #187 - long live the union - as long as it's on England's terms, right? The Tory heart at large...
176

Nik,

Embra 05/03/2008 12:52:07
195

Hi AJ,

I've noticed that most of her other comments that she's made have come from other people on that site, too.

What a total ignoramus.
177

Iain MS,

Newcastle 05/03/2008 12:52:18
I can wholly understand where they're coming from. Scotland governed by a party that is hell-bent on putting Scotland's interests first? Disgusting!
178

Arfur,

05/03/2008 12:52:33
kimba - as usual your numbers are made up and nonsence.
179

The Master,

05/03/2008 12:53:02
Methinks Sir Ming doth protest too much here! He’s keen to defend his reputation by making it clear that the decision as to whether to form a coalition with Labour was entirely up to the Scottish leadership, but this begs the question of why he agreed to the meeting in the first place then? Everyone knows that what Gordon says goes (particularly in Scotland) and, reading between the lines, it’s quite apparent that he wanted to give the impression to Gordon that he was just as much the big man in his party. I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with control from London based politician behind the scenes, I’m just saying that this is the reality of modern politics in Scotland and it’s completely hypocritical of Sir Ming to try to paint himself as whiter than white. Similarly, everyone knows that Salmond was the real power behind everything the Nats did in the Scottish Parliament while he was Westminster based (indeed, he still is a Westminster politician, for crying out loud!)

"After two hours, we packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP,"

Is Ming deliberately trying to alienate the Nats even further? He might at least have propligated a white lie (for goodness sake, his memoirs must be full of them!) and claimed that the Lib Dums ordered haggis suppers. Or did he feel that this little detail would serve to make his memoirs more racy and raise more funds towards financing his no doubt soon to be forthcoming retirement?
180

kimba,

05/03/2008 12:55:02
192, yep,seems the whole of England are thick,but guess what;WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU SCROUNGING!
181

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 12:58:09
Jackie - various excellent posts

You are certainly on form today. Keep up the good work.
182

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 12:58:35
AJ for President!!
183

Cam3,

05/03/2008 13:00:24
#206 - not really answered the mails again, eh Kimba?

I'll say it once more you dumb **** moron.

An independent Scotland ends the 'scrounging' as you see it? Yes?

Yet - you want the union? What a hypocrite. Sorry bimbokimba, the 80's finished a wee while back. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...and good luck with the wealth of England's natural resources, sprawling horizons of green etc. Enjoy.
184

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:00:54
#206,

Using caps again Kimba? You know that means you've lost the argument!LOL

I make that - SNP 130 Kimba 0
185

Arfur,

05/03/2008 13:01:13
kimba - i wont tell you again Scotland gets back less than 40% of what it brings in. If anyone is scrounging its that pathetic country that you come from.

Your the country that will not let go of us - your the stalker or the bunny boiler of the world.
186

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:01:19
201. and again.

"This is growing and will continue to grow."

Where is your proof that support for independence is growing?

All I see in repeated polls is support for independence (and now the SNP as well) dropping, disappearing and decreasing.
187

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:01:52
190

Scotland pays taxes pro rata exactly the same way as England & Wales does, and you have to include everything we pay in Scotland before you can even begin to understand anything.The whisky is often mentioned because its one of the UKS major exports (and its significance is tenfold to an independent Scotland therefore since we only have approx 10% of that economy size ).
The oil has contributed £237 billion into the United Kingdom and an independent Scotland would therefore be a subsidiser/ contributor to the UK and you should be able to understand that with primary school arithmentic.
Its value to an independent Scotland automatically multiplies tenfold for exactly the same reason.
Scotland only needs 10% of the Uk resources in total to stand still! We have well in excess of that figure.
You are definitely a wind up. You just cannot be that stupid !
188

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:03:42
201. And while you're gathering in all your evidence to back up your wild claims about support for independence growing, you can find some evidence of this too:

"It's pretty obvious that the Scottish people have been manipulated over successive generations by British governments and their media outlets. This manipulation has taken a variety of courses. Scots have been lied to, cojolled, fed rubbish, persuaded, scare-mongered and sometimes even flattered into accepting their place in the union"
189

westview,

Attack them with votes. 05/03/2008 13:04:07
There are elections due in May ,in England. If Westminster can interfere in Scots politics then we can interfere south of the border. Back the opposition to Labour in any English marginal seats by writing, mailing and phisicaly giving support to their main opponents in any constituancy. Any one on this post clever enough to post a list of marginal seats?
190

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:04:51
209. AJ FOR THE HANGMANS NOOSE!
191

Cam3,

05/03/2008 13:05:38
Ahh - it's nice to look back ;o)

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/endlabourlies/small-poster/new%20labour%20spin6.jpg
192

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 05/03/2008 13:06:43
#206

LOL. If Scotland are such scroungers then you should want independence for Scotland. Yet you seem to want the Union and despise the SNP's aims.

LOL - sorry I don't understand your position. Apparently you want the Union, and you also want Scots to recognise just what a bunch of 'freeloading scroungers' they are, and how grateful they should be for the Union.
193

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 13:08:13
197 cam 3-when I said "festering" I meant the situation festers -not Nationalism. Nobody I am sure, wants the current situation to drag on forever. in the interests of all the peoples of Britain and indeed ireland, the constitutional mess left behind by Labours half-baked devolution process needs to be resolved.
194

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:08:20
Jackie Priest....did you really say that you are living in Switzerland because you refuse to live in Scotland while it's in the UK?!

Do you actually expect anyone to believe that?!
195

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:11:05
Nats, still waiting for proof of this "increasing support for independence" here.

Anyone?

Any of the massed (well, 5 out of 7) ranks of ex-pat nats?
196

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:12:36
213

The SNP just became the single largest party in Scotland, hence the Holyrood result.
How could that happen if support for the SNP is not increasing? It can fall again of course No one denies this Thats why we have elections!TO FIND OUT!
It may be that support for the SNP and support for independence are not the same of course. In fact Im sure of it!Thats why a referendum will tell us what level of support their is!
Two possible outcomes exist.
1) The majority do not favour independence, fair enough.The SNP know where they stand and its back to the drawing board WE ARE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY.We accept the outcome.
2) The majority are in favour of independence
Thats what will then happen under international law.

WE ARE A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY !We accept the outcome(again).
What problem can you possibly have with that?

If the level of support is as you say it is then the referendum will establish that. We accept any unambiguous result irrespective of its nature.

197

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:15:02
Kimba#217,

Don't include me in your p*rverted games! You must be a Tory, right enough!!
198

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:15:54
222.you really are a bl--dy fool,so lets get this straight,if I support the snp then i'm ok but,if I disagree {which I do} I am stupid,typical nat logic.
199

bumpkin,

05/03/2008 13:16:51
Kimba, if we cost you so much , why dont you set us free.?
Even if the rubbish you talk is true, i would rather live in poverty than accept handouts from the likes of you .
Scotland would never have joined the union if the people had been asked. Only a few retarded lairds took the bribes and the decision.
Your oil figures are somewhat out of date, it is now worth £20 billion a year to england.
200

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 13:17:09
222 Grushka-dont u think that Kimba is winding u all up? Or A nationalist agent provocateur perhaps!
201

James3,

USA 05/03/2008 13:19:46
Such a parcel of Rogues in a Nation...
202

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 13:19:54
#154
1) "25% of those who voted SNP don't want Independence" Who said so? The Scotsman?
2) "illegal war" The United Nations for starters.
3) "lied over oil" The papers released from Westminster files showed that Brown,Dewar and all the other Labour Cabinet members, including John Smith consealed the true potential wealth Scotland would rightfully get from the North Sea revenues.
4) Read the subject under discussion. Brown clearly sought measures ti thwart another party from gaining power.
203

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 13:21:46
#201 Jackie Priest

dear Jackie
Your a bit condesending towards fellow scots suggesting they are easily manipulated(not in my experience).
Although this does beg the question when did they stop being manipulated....perhaps they are being manipulated now by a new world order using the ideology of 'Nationalism' who find small nations more easier to rule through the International money markets.

well one mad idea deserves another.......or is it..


You say my comment is disgusting and then invite me and millions of other pro-union supporters to move abroad.......heard that one before


Anyway must go to cast my ballot in my unions elections.....
204

Dr. James Wilkie,

05/03/2008 13:22:03
#172 Kimba. if you want to know the true story of how the restoration of the Scottish Parliament came about, I suggest you read the Scotland-UN story at www.realmofscotland.com

That is how it happened.

205

danielrober,

05/03/2008 13:23:36
185 Geoff,sa

I can see how to some people it could look like the UK is splitting up. Indeed many politicians would be over the moon if it happened. They could blame everything but the weather on the divorce. In fact they could most likley blame the weather, global warming on former British industrial developments.

However, the UK is very far from breaking up for four deadly serious reasons, which most including reasonable SNP members will agree with.

1, We need to build regional economies first. Without that, economies such as SA could simply buy up our industry, under EU regulations and move them abroad. So we need to alter the economy first.

2, We need to sort out the pension issues first. We can not just put millions of babyboomers out to dry over this issue. These are millions of people that have gone through de-industrialisation and then starting rebuilding a new economy. The pension issue needs to be resolved.

3, We are at war. Many countries are taking advantage of this to gain economic advantages over the west. Some western countries are taking advantage to gain benefits at the UK's expense, while out guys are fighting.

4, We are at war. The UK is the only war waging capable economy to turn up and back the Americans, now that they have been attacked. If the UK is broken up at this time, because of weaknesses caused by this war, no one will back up the USA again. Very serious politics.

In a decade or so these issues will have been resolved and then separation is a seriouse issue.
206

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:24:02
aj,you are a vile,billious individual,and if there is a god you will be dealt with as the obnoxious piece of slim that you are.
207

Walter McDermott III,

05/03/2008 13:24:34
Here in the USA, we call this sort of behaviour Turd Politics, and the main protagonist, in this case Minister Brown, would be known as the Turd. It sums up quite aptly the 'by hook or by crook' methods employed in British politics, and thankfully is still quite rare over here in the US.

If Minister Brown is supposed to be Scottish, then behaviour like this amounts to little more than treason - with the people of Scotland being betrayed. he appears to be a con man, and hopefully President Bush will have little to do with him going forward.
208

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:26:05
Geoff SA#229

Kimba couldnae wind up a bairn's toy!
209

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:26:34
What this story suggests is that both Labour and Lib Dems have no respect for their own Scottish leadership.

Jack McConnell was First Minister, a crappy uninspiring puppet First Minister but still he was supposedly the leader of Labour in Scotland.

Gordon Brown couldn't even be bothered phoning him never mind getting him to meet up with him and his pal Sir Ming.

I don't believe Ming's protests about 'not wanting to throw his weight around' we can see that after the election he told the Lib Dems that they were to have no truck with a referendum, despite the fact that it could have included their preferred policy option and might well have led to the federalism that they supposedly believe in.

They could also have got some of the policies the Lib Dem voters voted for throug hthe parliament. Instead Sir Ming led them to the political wilderness where they sit and snipe along with Labour.

What difference is there between Labour and the Liberals? On the evidence of this story, effectively none.
210

Arfur,

05/03/2008 13:27:02
kimba - resorting to name calling

exposed as the infant that you are.
211

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 13:27:06
AJ-it would appear that Kimba didnt like my suggestion at 209-not exactly a fan of yours it would seem!
212

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:27:18
#235,

You say the nicest things!
213

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:27:48
196

There is no doubt that the Hootsmon is being manipulated from further afield than Manor Place,and its more than possible that what you infer could hold water!
The editor is from Portsmouth I beleive,and that in itself gives some clue as to the papers Scottish credentials, I would have thought. The previous editor was Unionist certainly,so we can definitely say the current editorial line is.Who pulls the strings?Good question. In Scotland we have a saying: He who pays the piper calls the tune !If the cap fits wear it is another perhaps?
214

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:29:14
Geoff#242,

I know, canny understaund it masel, but there ye go!:)
215

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 05/03/2008 13:29:16
#235

Well you obviously don't have a high opinion of aj. But you seem to recognise at least one redeeming feature - namely that he is slim.
216

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 13:29:23
Forgot to highlight that post #154 came from Highland Mighty; what an oxymoron! You mean "Highland Michtie Me Glaikit"! What drivel you write and from dubious sources.
217

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:30:31
233.I know that europe made it virtually impossible for blair, he did what he had to do if reluctantly.
218

The Master,

05/03/2008 13:30:42
#203 Turbulent Priestie: you refuse to live in a Scotland that is part of the union then! Which union? There are two to choose from and most well balance posters fail to see why the UK is any more objectionable than the EU. Indeed, the EU has been taking increasing power over Scotland in recent years whereas the UK has been heading in the opposite direction. And you wonder why Nats like you are branded as extremists by the rest of us!
219

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:31:40
224. YouGov poll:

"The SNP won the election more due to the unpopularity of Labour than the popularity of the SNP and its policies."
Agree 70%
Disgaree 16%

Why can't you see the pattern that is so very obvious in ALL these polling figures?

Independence has minority support. Always has.
'Unionism' has majority support. Always has.
220

danielrober,

05/03/2008 13:32:06
# 236 Walter McDermott III,

If your opinion is that the USA has no further need of the UK, now our guys have fought and died. BYE, BYE.

However most of the Americans i have meet are not of the same opinion.
221

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:32:15
243. burn in h-ll nat boy.
222

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:35:13
#252,

Since I'm not religious, could you suggest something else?
223

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 13:36:25
Oh dearie me, is the boobie ripping off comments from other people on the telegraph website again?! Brings tears of laughter to my eyes!

Last time she did that, she claimed it was jointly written & that it was from her brother in law, a historian...the poor, deluded boobie.
224

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 13:37:38
Coming a bit late in the day to this, but you have to wonder just what was in the extracts that poor old Ming had to have censored. Also it's a bit unsettling that Broon having had this ran by him first of all, still allows the rest to go ahead to printing. It's as if in his arrogance he's saying, yes I conspired and colluded to rid Scotland of the SNP and there's nothing you can do about it.

What an incredible ego, if only he could use his powers for good.
225

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:38:14
253.you don't have to be!
226

Arfur,

05/03/2008 13:38:26
kimba - like there is no such thing as a labour offical without sleeze, there is no such thing as heaven and hell.
227

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 13:39:19
Still waiting for any proof of increasing support for independence.

Still waiting for the Swiss Nat to prove that we are a stupid and gullible people that have swallowed a mass of lies by consecutive governments.
228

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:41:49
227

What he is saying(as are all of us) is not that you are a fool, because you do not support the SNP.
You have that right as does everybody.
We would never oppose that .

He is saying you are a fool because you sound like one ,and dont have a clue !
If you were to post something remotely sensible it would be recognised as such!
I can think of no greater measure of a fool than he or she does not know that they have made one of themselves again and again !

You are either a) a wind up
or b) a person who has still to comprehend the meaning of

BETTER TO BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND PROVE IT.

You reap as you sow !
229

Sideshow Bob 2,

05/03/2008 13:42:31
#245 AJ: don’t you have any work to be getting on with? Pollute your colleagues rather than the poor unfortunates who happen to log on here, slimeball!
230

David MacVicar,

web 05/03/2008 13:44:50
The timing of this is interesting, having come just after the Lib Dem conference trying to show distance between themselves and Labour.

I wonder when Mings revelations made it into the final draft? The LIB Dems see a weak and collapsing Labour support and rather than tackle a strong SNP they are trying to attract disenfranchised Labour voters in order to halt their own demise.

This is nothing but good news for the SNP as it will probably result in an even lower Labour vote in the next set of elections.

Two words for Brit Brown and Brit Labour: Ha, Ha.
231

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:44:54
sgurr,the shirt lifter is back,with his verbal diarrhoea!
232

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 13:45:39
#260,

Charming!!LOL
233

Arfur,

05/03/2008 13:47:27
ok highland here is some proof that does not get distorted by things like the area that a survey is carried out in.

i know at least 18 people who voted labour who have decided to support SNP after being impressed by how they have handled thier first 9 months (not saying they want independance(as yet)).

i know at least 8 people who voted snp but weren't really for independance that now thing we should go it alone.

that to me is an increase in support that i can actually see and not just read about in some survey (that is done to 1000 people or something).
234

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:49:41
258 They publish opinion polls regularly . Some days up some days down.Overall it has been a gradual climb.Why dont you try reading the papers ?

You surely realise that what happens today is history tomorrow and no longer an accurate measure.
I can recall not so long ago that Scotland woke up to find she had elected THATCHER .The day before she had voted Labour. Im fairly sure that a few people wish they had NOT DONE SO in Scotland and changed their minds the following day !

Thats what happens! People think !They change their minds.
If you have difficulty with that concept,well what can I say that would not further insult you?
235

kimba,

05/03/2008 13:51:27
264. you seem to know a h-ll of a lot,except how salmond is leading scotland into oblivion
236

Fanling,

Guangdong 05/03/2008 13:52:23
#76 Lisbon-Lion,Glasgow

You're not alone in being ashamed that the odious Brown and the sleekit King Mamble are Scottish. They are apparently also supremely ashamed of being Scottish. Their contrived "English" accents make the flesh creep.
237

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:52:23
250 Yes and village idiots cannot differentiate between always has and always will have.
238

It's me!,

05/03/2008 13:54:08
#155. Kimba. The answer lies in your hands. Do not elect politicians who spend your money on illegal wars but give your vote to those who spend wisely. On the things you complain that your neighbours have but you do not. Then you might have all those goodies too and some money left over.
239

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:54:48
266 And how would you know?

One cannot fail to be impressed by the amount of knowledge that you have successfully body swerved to date Kimba.

Thats the only thing worthy of mention in your case!
240

Sgurr,

Laughing at you, not with you.. 05/03/2008 13:55:16
Nurse! Fetch me the stain-devil! Someone has written "SNP" in blue ink across my forehead!!!! Arggh! :D

Heeheehee!
241

Arfur,

05/03/2008 14:05:32
266 Kimba - 'salmond is leading scotland into oblivion'

so having someone in charge that has a country's best interests at heart will lead us to oblivion??????

having a party that do more in 6 months than labour did in 10 years will lead us to oblivion??????

having a party that are not cheats, liars and crooks will lead us to oblivion???????

having a party that thinks of the people instead of thinking of how to obstruct another party will lead us to oblivion????????

sit down, shut up...your inane drivel is not big and not clever.
242

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 14:07:24
273 - ironic, since she is actually very big (huge, in fact)...though it does have an inverse relationship to her IQ.
243

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:10:10
For dear crinkly old Kimba, the lying king [get it!?]

Perhaps you'll merit a response now? Or are you gonna dodge it again? Yella-belly.
---
#206 - not really answered the mails again, eh Kimba?

I'll say it once more you dumb **** moron.

An independent Scotland ends the 'scrounging' as you see it? Yes?

Yet - you want the union? What a hypocrite. Sorry bimbokimba, the 80's finished a wee while back. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...and good luck with the wealth of England's natural resources, sprawling horizons of green etc. Enjoy.
244

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:12:01
God alone knows with England's endless green and pleasant lands, bountiful natural resources etc that losing Scotland's 'scroungers' would mean they'd all live happily ever after.

Sniff sniff.

245

bill-alba,

fife 05/03/2008 14:12:37
I'm furious that the unionist would think I'm furious about the fact that there was a conspiracy to ensure the SNP failed in the election.. Anyone with any sense whatsoever (not kimba/highland mighty) could see with their own eyes what was happening so I am not furious just more determined to argue the nat case....If there is a review of barnet and it makes Scotland worse off...we will all just have to ensure that the barnet formula is scrapped. I find it a bit tedious to see kimba/highland etc coming out with the same of sh*te as they have always come out with so answering any of the points they raise is a waste of time as they wait a week and come out with the same old crap.
246

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 14:14:02
264. Are you ****ing serious?! You know what, lad, I'll take the survey by a professional organisation of 1000 people over your amateur and unweighted and unsubstantiated snapshot poll of 26 people to gauge national opinion!

Seriously, is that all the 'evidence' there is of increasing support for independence?!

I have just asked the 27 people on my floor and they all would rather we stayed in the wealthy, prosperous, politically and economically powerful large UK than become just another non-entity that is being just another the massed ranks of small countries.

Does anyone else have anything to offer?

265. I have said several times now, the poll rating is down, both for the SNP and independence. Down. Not a "gradual climb". Down.

Still a small minority of support for both party and its principal policy, as it has always been.

And as it will always be. If Salmond can only LOSE support despite all the pathetic little plots, gripes and accusations up his sleeve, then you nats have clearly peaked in numbers.
247

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:17:00
#278 - GB is now taking away from the SNP-government in Scotland in order to:

- Make use of as much air space and make the SNP look as bad as possible.
- Answer the bad anti-Scottish political karma HE and his PARTY have created due to the 'subsidy' lie. REMEMBER he told us all a few months ago this was nonsense, following the Herald 'scoop' but he's quite happy to be seen, by the eyes of the English, in 'making things right and whacking the favoured Scots..'

You couldn't make it up. Labour excrement.
248

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:18:48
278 happy english,London
249

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:18:50
No7 Wardog, Buckie. Those were my immediate thoughts on reading this article. That the SNP would make such a good job of spending the £30billion it would fuel the desire for Independence whereas the Lab/Lib Dem coalition could be sufficiently controlled by London to spend their money 'conservatively' so as not to excite the electorate and therefore damage the Union with any silly talk of more powers for Holyrood or, horror of horrors, Independence.
250

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 14:21:03

Highland Mighty seeing as you spout continually 2/3rds. of Scots wish to remain in the union why not sign this petition to get a referendum on Scottish independence?

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/
251

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:23:10
#279 highland misery

I've just telepathically linked with the people in three Greenock high flats. The results?

- SNP are making a good job - 89%
- Labour are not to be trusted - 93%
- You are a numpty - 100%

In all seriousness though Mr.Misery, in response to your mail.

I'd rather join the 'massed ranks' of smaller countries, who are currently looking after themselves, going about their business, not being lied to, are in control of their own press, don't really wanna kill people - at cost - and who make their own mind about about small issues like defense, Nuclear power stations and weapons of mass destruction and the like. Aww shucks - you know, freedom??

Wealthy, prosperous, politically and economically 'enough' small Scotland.

Where does the pressing need to be BIGGER and IMPORTANT come from misery? One might think you have a wee [cough] complex somewhere...
252

Leodhasach,

05/03/2008 14:23:25
How can I be surprised at Lapur's National malfeasance? In Dundee the Nationalists gained most councillors in the last election, sending a shiver round the Labour memebers, frantically looking for a spine to run up. They immediately started a hunt for anyone, ANYONE who would shore up the weakened Labour party and allow it to hold control in a city that clearly had voted them out. So much for the established will of the people. Sheerest gossamer against the established will of the apparatchiks who will kill to retain power.
253

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:24:35
Never forget. Labour tell lies.

Honest, they do. Scotland - pah - they don't give a jot.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/endlabourlies/small-poster/new%20labour%20spin6.jpg
254

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 14:26:53
284. The difference is I'm not one of you 'little Scotlanders' who desperately wants to retreat from the world to live in some SNP-promised-but-totally-implausible nirvana.
255

kimba,

05/03/2008 14:27:36
England needs to have English votes on English affairs as well as an equitable financial package to the Scots. This will just be the beginning and it will take a lot more than Gordon Brown is prepared to consider to satisfy the English.
The worm is turning Gordon!
256

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:28:29
#287 - you mean, like ANYTHING that's not wrapped up in a little Englanders UK?

How arrogant. How amazingly arrogant. Keep it coming highland misery. Me and the country still want option B - Wealthy, prosperous, politically and economically 'enough' small Scotland...

[Have you a wee *****?]
257

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:28:40
278 happy english,London

As I was about to say before the software decided I already had .............................

Whilst you may be correct of course,time will tell,the recent trend is very much against you at the moment, but of course I cannot predict the future.
It is however the case, that if Scotland shows a majority favouring independence in a referendum ,then our declaration of independence is recognised internationally ,and we negotiate the terms of secession.It is not something that LONDON can refuse or deny.She can only argue her case for what belongs to Scotland ,and as a general rule 10% of both assets and debts are the expected rule. The Oil however would then lie in Scottish waters and would be solely Scotlands,and any variation on this would be the subject of horse trading between the two governments,so it is well possible that some deviation could happen.I agree however that whilst I expect independence is now inevitable,history will prove one of us wrong.It could be me .
258

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 14:31:14
287 - funny, but I don't see Luxembourg, Ireland, Denmark or Holland as having retreated from the world.

Michty me - what, in your opinion, is the optimal size of country? If you think it is above 60million, should the UK say "game's up" and hand over all control to Europe, because it is too small and (therefore) inward looking?
259

Arfur,

05/03/2008 14:32:15
highland misery - lad??? yes i am f***ng serious tough t*ts.

i would rather trust seeing the turn than a poll which can be effected by where it was conducted to what day it was.
260

Arfur,

05/03/2008 14:32:25
highland misery - lad??? yes i am f***ng serious tough t*ts.

i would rather trust seeing the turn than a poll which can be effected by where it was conducted to what day it was.
261

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:35:21
The UK, a leading trading power and financial center, is one of the quintet of trillion dollar economies of Western Europe. Over the past two decades, the government has greatly reduced public ownership and contained the growth of social welfare programs. Agriculture is intensive, highly mechanized, and efficient by European standards, producing about 60% of food needs with less than 2% of the labor force. The UK has large coal, natural gas, and oil reserves; primary energy production accounts for 10% of GDP, one of the highest shares of any industrial nation. Services, particularly banking, insurance, and business services, account by far for the largest proportion of GDP while industry continues to decline in importance. GDP growth slipped in 2001-03 as the global downturn, the high value of the pound, and the bursting of the "new economy" bubble hurt manufacturing and exports. Output recovered in 2004, to 3.2% growth, then slowed to 1.7% in 2005 and 2.7% in 2006. The economy is one of the strongest in Europe; inflation, interest rates, and unemployment remain low. The relatively good economic performance has complicated the BLAIR government's efforts to make a case for Britain to join the European Economic and Monetary Union (EMU). Critics point out that the economy is doing well outside of EMU, and public opinion polls show a majority of Britons are opposed to the euro. Meantime, the government has been speeding up the improvement of education, transport, and health services, at a cost in higher taxes and a widening public deficit.

Now as someone from N.Ireland and reading the above facts and the fact that Scotland has around 85% and 20% of oil and gas respectively,it is clear as water the Scotland can sustain an independent economy from the rest of the UK and build on it.

We all know the age old tired argument that Oil will run out but with an Oil fund set up for future generations this oil revenue will last a life time.

We are also the most heavily su
262

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 14:38:27
294. What oil fund?! Salmond has changed his mind on that as he needs it all for his spending dreams!
263

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:38:59
Cont.subsidised part of the UK (N.I) but we hear no Labour voices calling for our subsidy to be slashed, why is this?

Also a large and growing percentage would like to integrate with Dublin but we hear of no voices calling for our subsidy from the UK to be slashed, why?
264

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:41:19
297 Highland

Who menstioned Salmond? all i am saying is from a N.I view it seems (Who ever) is in control of Scotland's resources should set up an oil fund for the Scottish people.
265

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 14:41:39
Kimba#288,

So where did you pinch/copy that from?
266

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 14:45:02
AJ - she co-wrote it with her brother in law, who, when not being exhibited by Edinburgh Zoo, is a famous and very extra-super-clever academic brainologist. GOT IT?
267

The Master,

05/03/2008 14:45:45
#265 morris: everyone knew that the surest way to get rid of Thazza was to vote Labour (and it eventually worked!) The SNP are a complete irrelevance in a national context when the Tories are in power and everyone knows it except the party’s cult followers!
268

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 14:46:21
296. Your last sentence applies to all of us.

Grasping at theories that the vast majority of the country suffers from apathy and disillusionment is an arrogant and desperate spin of reality.

The SNP's stongest base is in the youth; the least-informed, the least-experienced, the least-travelled and the least mature section of society.

Why do you think that support for independence has stayed so low for decades. It's because (and there is no escaping this) people begin to recognise that the UK is the way forward as they grow up and become more aware of the realities of life.
269

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:46:43
287

Small economies are more manageable than larger ones simply because any change you make is automatically more significant(pro rata if you understand what that means) in a smaller economy !Scotland would benefit from being smaller alone.Size does matter but inversely to the views you espouse!
SMALL IS BEAUTIFUL !

Try dividing a cake between you and your wife,Then try dividing it between the whole street ! The principle is simple enough!See which one you fare better under !You can have your cake and eat it, but only if you don't give it away !Thats why an independent Scotland will be amongst the highest standard of living nations.Its harder to avoid it in fact with Scotlands size and comparitive resources.The only thing that could go partly wrong is we wait until Westmonster has used up the other 50% of oil revenues and that would make it harder of course, but we would still have sufficient resources,and the McCrone Report supports that ,as well as numerous studies by bodies like Fraser of Allander Instititute,(where Wendy s husband worked ),He is on You tube supporting an independent Scotland by the way in a lecture he gave here in Edinburgh !No link Im afraid but it exists !

The facts are a major inconvenience for Unionists I agree.There is a simple solution of course.
270

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:46:50
A report last year from consultants, Oxford Economics, suggests that Scotland pays roughly as much in tax as it receives in public spending. Mr Swinney says Scotland is making an enormous contribution through the UK through oil revenues for which they get nothing in return.

"What Scottish oil has delivered over the last 30 years is a very, very helpful resource to prop up the ailing finances of the UK. And that's benefited prime ministers from Margaret Thatcher to Gordon Brown


Says it all really!!
271

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 14:47:03
Sgurr#301,

Ta for clearing that up. He must be the brains in the outfit right enough! Can he peel a banana with his feet though?
272

indune1,

05/03/2008 14:47:35

230 - Well stated. Bought and sold for English gold; such parcel of rogues in a nation!

Only time will tell if such internal rot will persist and infect Alex Salmond and his following.

So far I have quite admired his approach and policies except for his hare-brained idea of having Scottish troops becoming the next generation of UN blue berets!!

273

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:48:35
#302 - eh, I think - I mean I just THINK the SNP are important in a national context. You know? Scotland?

For cult followers read voting public? Largest chunk of voting public?

What are you barking on about? I reckon you are a member of the darkest cult - that of senseless and insupportable unionism ;o)
274

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:49:01
302 The Master

Scotland voted Labour for 18 years and got a Tory government Its about to happen again Guess who will look like a prize neep the day after the election!
275

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:49:19
#303 - '...Why do you think that support for independence has stayed so low for decades. It's because (and there is no escaping this) people begin to recognise that the UK is the way forward as they grow up and become more aware of the realities of life...'

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH LOL!

Are you for real? What a space cadet!
276

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:49:51
The problem is that many older Labour voters haven't cottoned on to the fact that the Labour Party they voted for 15 or 20 years ago no longer exists. Labour is now a middle-England, middle-class party with no relevance whatsoever to working class Scots. Its time older voters woke up to this reality
277

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 14:50:05
#305,

I like the cut of your jib young feller-me-lad! Howcome that other Northern Irish feller, AM2, doesn't have your clarity?
278

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:51:54
It's time that older voters realise that in continually voting Labour, regardless of their policies, they are going to wake up one day to find that any young Scot with ambition will have left the country. Why would an educated person want to live in a one-party state with a perpetually failing economy, a poverty of ambition and no opportunity to run our own affairs.
279

kimba,

05/03/2008 14:54:21
AJ Maybe you and sgurr should get a room,you are so far up each others ar-e!
280

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 14:54:48
#312 AJ Fife

I try and think out of the box, not hide back in the box and whimper about what the UK does for all of us.
281

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 14:56:21
313. In what way is Scotland or the UK a "failing economy"?

Maybe YOU would like to back up one of your wild claims for once?

STILL WAITING FOR ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THERE IS INCREASING SUPPORT FOR INDEPENDENCE.
282

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 14:57:14
Just re-read this again.

The Hootsman have basically ripped off the Scottish edition of The Times front page headline story.

The Times (UK online version) make little mention of the story it's in the 'In brief section' and runs to no more than fifty words.

Most importantly the Hootsman do not make mention of the fact that SECTIONS OF CAMPBELL'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY HAVE BEEN CENSORED.

In publishing any comments about a third party have to be cleared as OK for publication. Brown knew this was coming had the dodgier stuff removed ( we can only guess at what was so bad it couldn't be published) and can live with the rest of the story that he attempted to stifle democracy.

If this happened in any other country, people here would quite rightly be on their collective high horses about it.

I listened to Browne and Cairns today on Radio Scotland in Scottish questions at lunchtime and was left with the impression of the school bullies ably abetted by the Tories ganging up on the SNP, who do not have the parliamentary rights to answer the outright lies and defamation that Browne and Cairns were spouting today.

I can only hope that the Labour Party in Scotland do the decent thing and distance themselves from Brown and his cohorts and focus on being a presence in Scotland, not beholding to London Labour.
283

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 14:57:33
314 Maybe you should get a brain Kimba Yours so far up your own .
284

Cam3,

05/03/2008 14:58:12
STILL WAITING FOR ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THERE IS INCREASING SUPPORT FOR THE UNION.

STILL WAITING FOR ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THE UNION MAKES ANY KIND OF SENSE.

FULLY SATISFIED AT HIGHLAND MISERY'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX.
285

kimba,

05/03/2008 15:01:24
ENGLAND: It's way past time, we need to stop this drain on our finances, if the scots think they can go it alone let them try,but on the condition that if they fail they are on their own,and let any future referendum say as much.
286

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:01:44
It seems that Labour are retreating to their West of Scotland heartlands and looking for these to sustain them yet even these bastions are not above the influence of the SNP. The Labour MSPs returned there saw their majorities slashed dramatically and now there are very few seats which could be considered to be "safe". Couple this with the SNP gaining councillors in places they have never had them before and it is possible that support will erode further for Labour in the West, as in the rest of Scotland.


If the Scottish public is to move forward, please sort out your west coast labour cousins.
287

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 15:03:26
315 Keep it coming
Your clarity of thought is most refreshing.Dont be too upset if the Unonists cannot understand you.I would take it as a very reassuring compliment when they totally miss the point!

My biggest worry is that they did agree with me one day ! That would definitely cause me concern !
288

The Strategist,

05/03/2008 15:03:39
Those who believe that it's important to maintain the Union because of the economic strength it provides to Scotland either don't read very much, are all related to Alistair Darling or don't understand basic economics.


289

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:10:10
Evidence unearthed in late 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act has shown significant UK government concerns over the rising tide of Scottish Nationalism during the early part of the 1970s and the consequences that this may have had upon ownership and control over the UK's North Sea resources. A report written by the Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone for ministers[16] in the mid-1970s indicated that with ownership of North Sea oil, an independent Scotland would have "embarrassingly large tax surpluses"[17], that the economy of an independent Scotland, with control over the majority of UK North Sea oil revenue would have the one of the "hardest" currencies in Europe and that "for the first time since the Act Of Union was passed, it can now be credibly argued that Scotland's economic advantage lies in its repeal"

290

morris,

edinburgh 05/03/2008 15:11:13
320

That at least is a reasonable post,and yes I agree if we make a mess of things we are responsible and can blame no one but ourselves.

Our declaration of independence is recognised in International law .Its not something that can just be undone again.
WE understand this and want this in the case of people like myself.All we say is the majority rule. Thats democracy.Try and understand that . We know whats involved and we are extremely unlikley to ever want to rejoin,having left. We also understand that you are under no obligation to take us.I wish you had thought that in 1707!
Scotland should be governed by what the majority decide .Thats fair and democratic. Nothing else
291

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:12:11
#287 HM - You really need to get out more. Your views seem to be borne more out of small-mindedness than knowledge.
292

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 15:12:19
Latest poll here..........

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/scottish-voting-intention/
293

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 15:12:47
324 - or in the case of "the stockton boobie", are barely able to read at all.
294

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:13:08
Recent evidence by Kemp and Stephen (2007) has tried to estimate hypothetical Scottish shares of North Sea Oil revenue by dividing the UK sector of the North Sea into separate Scottish and UK sectors using the international principle of equidistance as utilised under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) - such a convention is used in defining the maritime assets of newly formed states and resolving international maritime disputes. The study by Kemp & Stephen showed that hypothesised Scottish shares of North Sea oil revenue over the period 1970 to 1999, varied to as high as 98%[12] dependent upon the price of oil and offset against taxable profits and the costs of exploration and development.

295

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:17:55
A secret Whitehall dossier written 30 years ago has revealed that Labour ministers were concerned about the case for Scottish independence.
The information was kept confidential at the time to keep Nationalism at bay.

The paper was obtained by the Scottish National Party under freedom of information legislation.

Written by a leading government economist in 1974, it sets out how oil would have given Scotland one of the strongest currencies in Europe.

The report by Professor Gavin McCrone also stated that Scotland would have had "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses

Scotland, go get your oil..
296

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:20:15
Kenny MacAskill, of the Scottish National Party, said the report was proof of 30 years of official lies, cover-ups and betrayal.

He added that it showed how much Scotland would have benefited from independence and oil.

He said that in the 30 years since the report, Scotland had suffered low economic growth and manufacturing decline while at the same time oil wealth had "transformed" Canadian provinces and Arabian shiekdoms.

"Some have chosen when they've discovered oil to make the desert bloom and the tragedy was that in 30 years in some areas of Scotland, the UK Government has created an industrial desert," he said.

Maybe you Scots could help us out with you massive oil cash.!
297

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:24:09

327 - well said.

However, I would advise caution in using the number of "new countries popping up".

Some have turned out to be nothing more than UN dependents. Kosovo is the latest example.

If your cause is just and your hope and confidence is high - then nothing will stop you. However, never, ever, look back. It would be a fatal distraction.
298

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:25:27

334 - I believe you Irish have done well enough with EU handouts (oh, all right, subsidies).
299

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:27:27
336 indune 1

That is correct and the UK has done well out of Scotland.

300

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:30:12
#302 Master

It all depends how you define "in a national context"
301

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:33:53

Ah yes, the essential difference being that your success has not been derived or based on a natural resource base.

Scotland go get your oil? Hmm. Perhaps thiry years too late. Especially when the world is slowly and thankfully weaning itself from a catastrophic addiction to oil.
302

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:34:02
323. I wouldn't quote TNS polls if I were you. Their polls (strange how you haven't mentioned this) suffer from wild variations in results, far more than others.

Anyway, a poll of polls for you:
"Q. Would you vote for independence in any referendum?" (or variations to that effect)

Date Yes No
08/01/08 27 57 YouGov
16/12/07 40 44 TNS
26/04/07 25 53 YouGov
28/03/07 28 51 YouGov
22/11/06 31 50 YouGov
30/10/06 39 51 ICM
07/09/06 44 42 YouGov
27/04/03 38 49 MORI

330. We are talking about the still-faintly-kicking notion of independence. And don't forget that 70% say the SNP won because of the unpopularity of Labour and not the sudden popularity of Salmond and the SNP.
303

Fanling,

Guangdong 05/03/2008 15:34:05
#170 Grushka

You waste time and precious life responding to the semi-literate rant-machine called Kimba. She/he/it has a one-track perspective shorn of verifiable evidence. She/he/it needs to get a schooling as her/his/its command of the English language is risible for someone who purports to be English. My English friends are equally embarrassed and creasing themselves at that half-wit's regular nonsense.
304

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:35:00
#320 Kimba - Who are you talking to? I suspect England is ignoring you too !
305

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 15:35:06
Why do we not get any polls on Scottish voting intentions for Holyrood and Westminster except when it comes near to the elections?

Would unionists care to hazard a guess?
306

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:36:18
Seems to me that the UK needs Scotland far more than Scotland needs the UK.

My part of the UK is the part that has the highest percentage of anti Uk feeling yet we are the most heavily subsidised part of the UK and yet we hear no labour whimpers about us and our generous hand outs,WHY?
307

English Visitor,

05/03/2008 15:36:57
Having read alot of these comments it seems to be that those who are opposed to Scottish independence and cite a subsidy from the rest of UK are facing in two different directions at once, and are making a powerful case for independence.

If Scotland is subsidised, then surely the rumblimg moves to review Barnett funding and reduce Scottish funding will mean, if Scotland stays part of the Union, cuts coming that Scots will have no control over?

I have no doubt that Scots being an inventive people can survive quite prosperously independent. Those who support the Uk should come up with better arguments than subsidies and calamities.
308

kimba,

05/03/2008 15:37:14
331,wonder if your as mouthy face to face,guess we'll never know,because as usual your to sh-t ar-e!
309

Cam3,

05/03/2008 15:37:39
#340 highland misery - STOP going round in circles, we've answered all your points previously - including your bizarre notion of people voting for 'the union' along with your senseless the SNP vote is 'dying' garbage - capping it with your 'I wanna be big big big' inferiority complex. Do me a favour. Move to Hackney. Enjoy....

STILL WAITING FOR ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THERE IS INCREASING SUPPORT FOR THE UNION.

STILL WAITING FOR ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THE UNION MAKES ANY KIND OF SENSE.

FULLY SATISFIED AT HIGHLAND MISERY'S INFERIORITY COMPLEX.
310

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:37:39

341 - Please don't state the obvious. It only encourages her. What you just did was the equivalent of feeding the animals at the zoo despite well-posted signs demanding otherwise.
311

BMeister,

05/03/2008 15:37:48
190 Kimba
'Scottish oil contributes about £6 Billion a year to the Treasury, Whisky about £2 Billion.

England gives £30 Billion a year to Scotland.

Thus England is potentially £22 billion a year better off if Scotland supports itself.'

That's a fascinating piece of logic, I didn't realise that Scotland and the Scots paid no income tax, corporation tax, fuel duty, road tax etc etc etc.

I feel conned as I've been paying these things to some entity called 'the UK Government' and yet they have given nothing back, it is actually England and not the UK who pays the Scottish government and yet they only receive the revenues from oil and whisky.

This is an outrage, I feel for the poor English and wonder where all the income and company tax I paid last year went.
312

Cam3,

05/03/2008 15:38:47
#345 English visitor - very well put sir. One of the many idiosyncrasies of unionist thought in Scotland.

313

English Visitor,

05/03/2008 15:39:10
340. Personally I would be sad if Scotland left the UK, but your type of patronising arguments are likely to hasten it in my opinion, in much the same was as retributive arguments about funding, subsidies and taking away Scottish MPs voting rights. These are totally negative, reactionary positions that can only strengthen the case for Scots to up sticks.
314

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:39:52
indune1,05/03/2008 15:33:53

Ah yes, the essential difference being that your success has not been derived or based on a natural resource base.

Scotland go get your oil? Hmm. Perhaps thiry years too late. Especially when the world is slowly and thankfully weaning itself from a catastrophic addiction to oil.

But then company's are looking at ways to clean up the oil and gas industry.

Londons economy is largely made up from banking and investments, why can Scotland not argue on its natural resources, ?
315

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:39:55
343. Because they are indicators of election results and so all-but irrelevant when no election is due? Mmm?
316

kimba,

05/03/2008 15:40:02
342. would you like to bet on that,terd!
317

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:42:42
351 English Visitor

That is precisely what i think as well, well said.
318

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:42:43
351. You are clearly and obviously as English as Brown himself.

Ayrshire Scot up to his old multi-username tricks?
319

English Visitor,

05/03/2008 15:43:04
342. Having read her comments, i wish I had ignored her!
320

Cam3,

05/03/2008 15:43:05
#351 - but Highland misery is a true Scot, fighting for Scotland! You know - 'We're too weak, we're too poor, we're too stupid, we're too small, we're got too few people, we couldn't survive on our ample natural resources etc. etc.'

Truly, a bastion of hope and progressive politics leading Scotland into the 21st century and beyond...

...or a useless, fangless, dinosaur who reckons we can only make it if we're part of something 'Big'. You know. Like the UK. Inferiority complexorama....
321

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:44:14
350

I am also in agreement with your post
322

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 15:45:41
325 Meths-SA= South Ayrshire??!!
323

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:45:55
355. The water is becoming very clear indeed!

Two pro-SNP fakers from NI and England with very similar usernames to English Voice, "EV" and "NI Voice"?

One and the same methinks? Do you have the guts to own up? Maybe you should have asked someone else to come up with these names as you are clearly running out of new ones yourself.
324

The Master,

05/03/2008 15:46:15
#338 connaught boy: “in a national context” of course refers to the UK: the Nats are a complete irrelevance at UK general elections, which is why they consistently poll far higher at Scottish Parliament Elections than at general elections. I know it, you know it and I like to think that even all the Nutty Nat fanatics out there know it!
325

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:46:15

352 - Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not for a moment question Scotland's right nor ability to argue on its natural resources - or should I say resource, that being oil/ nat gas.

However, any rational person would say that we must, we have to, divest ourselves completely from this natural resource, for the sake of the planet's overall well-being.

Therefore, I respectfully submit that to plan and commit long-term on oil is a false if not dangeous premise and undertaking.

However, that is just my opinion.

326

English Visitor,

05/03/2008 15:46:23
356. Highland Mighty - I don't understand your references, but labelling Brown as English or Scottish for political point scoring is redolent of the Tories trying to use his nationality to score points - and an own goal, if their aim is to preserve the UK. I find you dispuuting my nationality is really rather rude and pointless (in keeoing sadly with the rather rude tone of alot of your contributions that I have just read). Surely any contributions on here are read in terms of the point they make rather than the nationality of the poster? You sound like a racist.
327

BMeister,

05/03/2008 15:47:35
279 Highland Mighty
Why have you got 27 people on your floor? Do you run a hostel for illegal immigrants? Or have you let off a particularly pungent one which has laid out everyone during a house party?
328

Cam3,

05/03/2008 15:47:50
#362 - eh, I think - I mean I just THINK the SNP are important in a national context. You know? Scotland?

For cult followers read voting public? Largest chunk of voting public? What a fanatical individual you are. Ughh. makes the skin crawl.

What are you barking on about? I reckon you are a member of the darkest cult - that of senseless and insupportable unionism ;o)
329

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:48:36
I know that we in Northern Ireland are to poor to go it alone but Scotland would be a washed with cash.

As Thatcher said. "It would be embarrassing"!!

Personally i think we in N.I would be better of with our cousins in Dublin, after all they lead the way in Europe in terms of economic growth rates.
330

The Master,

05/03/2008 15:49:29
#363: indune1: give that man a medal! It's not just your opinion, it's as plain as your nose to all except the Nutty Nat Fanatics! They can go drown themselves in all the oil they want to their hearts content, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the following words are too big for the Nats to understand but (whisper it quietly!): oil is a finite resource!
331

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:50:22
English Visitor/NI Voice,

Once again, your use of multiple usernames has been quickly identified.

Off you go.
332

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:51:18
Highland Mighty,05/03/2008 15:45:55
355. The water is becoming very clear indeed!

Two pro-SNP fakers from NI and England with very similar usernames to English Voice, "EV" and "NI Voice"?

One and the same methinks? Do you have the guts to own up? Maybe you should have asked someone else to come up with these names as you are clearly running out of new ones yourself

#so i see from your post that this is just more paranoia from mainland unionists, with a name like Highland Mighty one thinks of a fake Scotsman using a Scottish moniker, how weird is this?
333

BMeister,

05/03/2008 15:51:23
353 Highland Mighty
If polls are indicators of election results and all but irrelevant when none is due as you say, then why do you keep going on about them?
334

English Visitor,

05/03/2008 15:51:26
361. I am not sure what your point is, but if it matters I am from Hertfordshire and have been living in Glasgow for 3 months. Why this matters to you I am not quite clear. My preference would be for the UK to continue, but I respect the democratic right of Scots to choose otherwise of course, and was just suggesting that a positive case could perhaps be made for the UK rather than all this negative insulting of Scotland, which has not seemed to have worked well so far given that Alex Salmond is now First Minister.
335

kimba,

05/03/2008 15:52:13
364,and you sound like ayrshirescot.
336

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 15:52:25
368. Our future is in high-tech industries and finance.

Why the nats continue to harp on about oil that is fast running out is nonsensical.
337

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:52:42
#363
I agree , but as i said in my post, companys are looking for ways to clean up oil and gas.
338

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:52:43
#354, kimba please refer to #357.

End of conversation with you.
339

Cam3,

05/03/2008 15:52:57
#368 - eh, I think - I mean I just THINK the SNP are important in a national context. You know? Scotland?

For cult followers read voting public? Largest chunk of voting public? What a fanatical individual you are. Ughh. makes the skin crawl.

What are you barking on about? I reckon you are a member of the darkest cult - that of senseless and insupportable unionism ;o)
340

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 15:53:18
Oil will be around for a long time yet, make no mistake!

It will get progressively pricier as it dwindles thus making it a more economically viable and sought after resource as it is a feedstock for not just petro-chemicals but also plastics, medicines and countless other vital commodities.
341

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/03/2008 15:55:54
"What would be the consequences... if the SNP used the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget to build support for independence" says Ming!!

You mean like the countless billions that the unionist parties have spent over the last 3 hundred years building support for the union - starting with the bribes that began it all in the first place.
342

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 15:56:09
#362 You are a Master at stating the obvious. so the SNP are relatively better represented in Holyrood than Westminster. So what is your point?
343

indune1,

05/03/2008 15:56:54

368 Master - apologies for stating the obvious. I have just not seen such a plain fact stated plainly on these threads.
344

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 15:57:08
369 Highland Mighty,05/03/2008 15:50:22
English Visitor/NI Voice,

Once again, your use of multiple usernames has been quickly identified.

Off you go.


#Excuse me but who made you moderator? i only post as N.I voice but would you like me to go because you are losing the argument? lets face the facts

Highland Mighty
Chairman Gordon
AM2
An English Voice= all the same person but you don't complain about that, why?

I only post at rare intervals and i am me, from N.I.
345

Buchanan,

05/03/2008 15:59:32
It would appear that even the Unionista appologists
are struggling to condone this action. Perhaps they
are finally realizing that the Westminster Goverment
is made up of sycophants and hypocrites that
feign support for democracy in their illegal
war in Iraq, yet are prepared to subvert Scotland's
democratic rights.

The only Unionista with useful opinions here is Kimba
with her continual pro-SNP propganda.
346

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:01:18
Funny how all you nerds can insult and belittle me sat at your computers in your safe wee houses,pity non of you jerks have the b-lls to say that to my face!
347

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:02:03
Scotsman in Dublin,05/03/2008 15:55:54
"What would be the consequences... if the SNP used the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget to build support for independence" says Ming!!

You mean like the countless billions that the unionist parties have spent over the last 3 hundred years building support for the union - starting with the bribes that began it all in the first place

# Indeed but the fruits of the bribes are waning of now,even a growing number of English can see that the Union is out dated.
348

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:02:26
Scotsman in Dublin,05/03/2008 15:55:54
"What would be the consequences... if the SNP used the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget to build support for independence" says Ming!!

You mean like the countless billions that the unionist parties have spent over the last 3 hundred years building support for the union - starting with the bribes that began it all in the first place

# Indeed but the fruits of the bribes are waning of now,even a growing number of English can see that the Union is out dated.
349

indune1,

05/03/2008 16:02:54
378 - Oil has only been important for just over 100 years.

That is not a long time.

Not only is oil a finite resource it will, by necessity, become less valuable of a commodity.

Don't get me wrong. Oil and petroleum products will remain pricey and profitable for governments who are willing to allow the big oil cartels to extract, refine and pollute.

Analyze every trend in western society and each one will tell you that oil's future is not bright. It may 20 yrs or 50, but it's lustre will fade.
350

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 16:04:21
#384 kimba

I would if I had the chance, believe me.

Now please take your childish taunts elsewhere and let intelligent debate flourish here in your absence.
351

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:05:03
Sorry about the double post, the fiber optic connections from Belfast to Gallanach in Oban are still in use in this part of the UK and sometimes get bottle necked at Taynult
352

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 16:05:43
382. Nope. Not even a 'nice try' that.
LOL!
353

,

05/03/2008 16:06:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
354

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 16:08:45
Everyone else read Professor Tom Nairn's Edinburgh Lecture from last night?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/News-Extras/edlecture08

Kimba, what do you make of his assertion that 'globalization is providing new stimuli for nationality-politics'?
355

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 16:09:16

indune1,

Read my post again and try to understand?

I agree oil is wasted by burning it in combustion engines and indeed this will come to an end in the next decade or so.

But oil is needed for plastics of every kind, vital for pharmaceuticals and many other applications....this will keep oil a much sought after product.
356

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:12:55
Heeheehee, I see its that time of the afternoon, when kimba ratchets up her levels of personal abuse! :D What a funny birdie!!
357

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:13:09
390

I used to post as Kerr from Belfast but now i use this moniker.
Your rhetoric has a compelling similar flavour to that of AM2, Obnoxious, patronising, and goes on the huff when his chips are down.

I anticipate that AM2 will be along very shortly.

It is for the good of the forums that we have (natural)posters such as me to keep the forum balanced, however reading the majority of the posts i have decided that the Nationalists are panning the unionists into oblivion.

As we say in N.I, ..NEVER...NEVER....NEVER...will i go back with Tiscali.!!
358

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 16:14:01
#391 kimba

You bring all the put-downs and belittling upon yourself. Try to keep a civil tongue in your head before you get yourself banned from this site.
359

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:14:05
392. Tom Nairn’s contribution to studies of nationalism, and therefore his potential contribution to the Centre of Excellence, is difficult to overstate. Writing in the London Review of Books, Neal Ascherson stated that Nairn has been ‘for twenty years the dominant political philosopher of his country, and an influence on the ideas of the post-1968 generation all over Western Europe’.
360

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:15:08
396. LOL, YOU WISH TERD.
361

Fanling,

Guangdong 05/03/2008 16:15:34
#344 An Northern Irish Voice

Interesting twist there. Maybe our in-house Scotland-basher AM2 (or whatever he calls himself these days) would care to respond to your comment. He is at the moment conspicuous by his absence.
362

indune1,

05/03/2008 16:16:11
391 -
Kimba - I don't think I have ever had an exchange of postings with you.

However, in reading many of yours, I can't help wonder why you continue to do so since all you end up doing is exchanging insults and to what purpose?

You are clearly for an independent England -rightly or wrongly. You have stated this many times on this site - a Scottish web site.

Why not just call it a day? Save yourself time and stress and let things run their course.

Just a suggestion.
363

European Scot,

05/03/2008 16:16:43
It is very heartening to see the quality of argument appearing on the pro-independence side. Pointing up posters like Jackie Priest, Grushka, Morris, Cam3, and the new Northern Irish Voice. There are also many others so apologies for leaving you out.
To anyone sitting out there on a political fence, yet to make a final judgement, set these posters against the line up on the Unionist side.
With a very few reasonable Unionist exceptions, and I would include Geoff of S.A. and English Visitor in that, you are looking at the likes of Highland Mighty, Nikostratos, The Master/Dark Side, and Kimba.
If you want to be judged by the company you keep, just make a few comparisons between the aforementioned posters.
To the likes of Highland Mighty. Do you seriously believe that the people of Scotland would actually vote against their own independence, when it finally comes down to it ?
That, statistically and morally, would fly in the face of behaviour of the vast majority of people living in the free world, who have overwhelmingly voted for the Independence of their country.
It is normal human behaviour to do so.
It begs the question, what kind of person would actually stand against the Independence of their country ?
The reality in Scotland is that the people are not being allowed to vote in a referendum, to determine for themselves what their future should be.
Who is standing in the way of that referendum ?
None other than the Unionist parties.
Now if all the little figures that Unionists claim, of minority support for Independence were even close to reality, why on earth wouldn't their parties be pushing like mad to get a referendum through.
Curiously they are not.
Why would that be ?
Because they are seriously frightened of the possible result.
That, 'Highland Mighty', is why all your facts and figures are meaningless.
When the Scottish voters are actually given a referendum on Independence.
Then Scottish voters will actually give you some accurate figure
364

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:16:51
#396

Kimba.The Master,The Darkside and side show balls 2 are all the same poster, just ignore them.
365

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:17:59
hahahah!!!! I love to see the guff kimba comes out with...eg post 397, ripped off from here:

http://gs.strath.ac.uk/content/view/213/112/
366

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 16:18:08
Kimba, I'm glad that you realise the importance of Nairn and his huge contribution to the inevitable Independence of Scotland, but why did you have to google your answer directly from Strathclyde University?

http://gs.strath.ac.uk/content/view/213/112/

367

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 16:19:33
395. Give it a rest, crocus. You've been sussed.
368

European Scot,

05/03/2008 16:20:00

Then Scottish voters will actually give you some accurate figures to quote.
Until then, weighted, multiple choice, lengthy polls, etc. are totally useless, unless of course you are peddling Unionist propaganda.
'Highland Mighty', you wouldn't be doing that, would you ?
Surely not with a name like that.
369

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:20:21
kimba - nearly time for the nighty nighty injections, ok?
370

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:22:13
European Scot,05/03/2008 16:16:43 #401
The reality in Scotland is that the people are not being allowed to vote in a referendum, to determine for themselves what their future should be.
Who is standing in the way of that referendum ?
None other than the Unionist parties.
Now if all the little figures that Unionists claim, of minority support for Independence were even close to reality, why on earth wouldn't their parties be pushing like mad to get a referendum through.
Curiously they are not.
Why would that be ?
Because they are seriously frightened of the possible result.
That, 'Highland Mighty', is why all your facts and figures are meaningless.
When the Scottish voters are actually given a referendum on Independence.
Then Scottish voters will actually give you some accurate figure

#What a good post you have wrote and i am sure the posters you have mentioned will be humbled by your comments.
I have posted the last part of your post because i think it is something that we should have the benefit of reading again...well said sir..
371

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:23:35
Its so easy to spot when kimba rips something off from another website. The words are in the right order, the usual rules of english are obeyed, and there is no foul-mouthed tirade in the middle. Hilarious!
372

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:24:23
Fanling,Guangdong 05/03/2008 16:15:34
#344 An Northern Irish Voice

Interesting twist there. Maybe our in-house Scotland-basher AM2 (or whatever he calls himself these days) would care to respond to your comment. He is at the moment conspicuous by his absence

# Indeed but i can feel his presence at #405..!!
373

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 16:24:46
Unionists (and Nationalists) sign the petition.....

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/
374

indune1,

05/03/2008 16:25:00

393 - well, thank you, I am indeed trying to understand. Perhaps that is a shared problem.

Plastics - in terms of trend predictions - are also dodgy.

Plastic bottles now being banned. Plastic bags being banned. Consumers - taxpayers - starting to complain of higher recycling costs of plastics.

What I am saying is that the extraction, refining and use of oil - in all of its various forms - is a poor investment - as a person, as a nation or as a planet.

Yes, it will remain important but not to its former levels where nations invaded each other to secure access and control over it.
375

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 16:26:14
Sgurr, you beat me by nine seconds. She/he/it really is an enormous waste of space. Someone tries to engage her in a debate about a globally respected Scottish philosopher and she ups and plagiarises the first site she can google.

I imagine it'll soon be feeding time for the handitards at Nelson Road and she'll be gone to be have dollops of gruel spoonfed into her gaping maw.
376

The Master,

05/03/2008 16:27:56
#377 Cam3: sorry, but it's you Nats who are the fanatics: for God's sake, who else uses the word "unionism" in a Scottish context except you Nuts! I bet your average man in the street wouldn't even know what "unionism" was in a UK context. In an NI context, they would, but not in a Scottish one. You lot really are something else!
377

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:28:56
Scotch Whisky is probably the best known of Scotland's manufactured exports contributing around £800 million to the Scottish economy, supporting 41,000 jobs as well as adding £2 billion to the balance of trade making it one of the UK’s top five manufacturing export earners[13]. The Whisky industry also generates a substantial income for the government with around £1.6bn raised in duty each year[14]. The principal whisky producing areas include Speyside and the island of Islay where there are 8 distilleries providing a major source of employment for the island. In many areas the whisky industry is closely related with tourism, with many distilleries also functioning as tourist attractions

#So it is the river of life and not just oil that Scotland has being subsidising the UK with?
378

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:29:28
400. Thanks,but you see although I am as you say a great supporter of English Independence,I am also a great believer in the union; my dad is from Dundee and moved to england 33 years ago where he married mum,he supports me in my beliefs as he says "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" in other words if scotland and wales have their own parliaments why not england,my nan still lives in scotland and is a labourite through and through she has been so for 60 years.
379

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:31:02
AM2 Get out of your Highland Mighty shell suit and clean on some of the stats flying around today.
380

Richard,

west lothian 05/03/2008 16:31:25

indune1

I think you're underplaying the importance of plastics in a big way?

Plastics make the world go round and that's not understating it, also the role oil and it's derivatives plays in pharmaceuticals and medicines is also of global importance.
381

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:31:41
Come clean even!!!
382

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:33:12
SGURR If you aint got the b-lls to say it to my face,shut the fcuk up terd.
383

indune1,

05/03/2008 16:34:32
419 - Richard - I believe we are violently agreeing. I don't dispute the importance of plastics, just their long-term viability as we will be forced to seek alternatives.

384

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:35:31
Its okay, my donation of free internet access to the Stockton special school usually runs out at around this time of night. Its lovely to see the kids special faces light up, though there are always one or two that abuse the privelidge.
385

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:37:50
Scotland is one of the world's biggest fund management centres with over £300bn worth of assets directly serviced or managed in the country. [22]. Scottish fund management centres have a major presence in areas such as pensions, property funds, investment trusts as well as in retail and private client markets. Similarly asset servicing on behalf of fund managers has become an increasingly important component of the financial services industry in Scotland with Scottish based companies providing expertise in securities servicing, investment accounting, performance measurement, trustee and depositary services and treasury services

#If Scotland were to be independent i rather think its status in this field would grow because at the moment London is favoured more by the Union but an independent Scotland would be far more competing in that it does not have an out dated union to slow it down.
386

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 16:38:42
...so, for example, kimba's post at 421 was entirely her own craftsgoatship. An unmistakable vintage!
387

steve52,

Kinfauns 05/03/2008 16:42:12
England has its own Parliament, its called Westminster.

I am all for independance for the English, let them try and survive on their own without all the money we daft Scots give them.

When discussing G Broown one must remember that he had/has strong communist beliefs which he has expounded over the years. He and New Labour are turning this country into a Stalanist state.

Anyhow, Scotland will never be independant as most Scots would not get off their lazy backsides to go out and vote.
388

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:42:23
I dont no what the temp is like over in Scotland but in Belfast it is freezing.
I may move to Dublin as it is nearer the equator and should be warmer, also they are experiencing better prosperity than my part of the Uk.
389

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:44:01
You could call me an economic migrant.
390

The Master,

05/03/2008 16:46:47
#427 Steve52: where I'd disagree with you is in you're assertion that we Scots would be too lazy too vote for independence. Rather, it's a case that we couldn't give a f*ck!
391

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:49:21
Sgurr so was my post at 417,but you don't care about that,not provocative enough for you1
392

Buchanan,

05/03/2008 16:52:04
417 Kimba

Did you realize that you already have an
English Parliament in Westminster which
had aggresively dominated all the other
"partners" in this equal Union for
over 300 years.

Also perhaps you did not realize that
Dundee has moved solidly to the SNP camp.
I would suggest you move with the times
rather than just doing what your dada
told you, which is advice well past its
sell by date.

Also please refrain from the vulgar language
it just make you look glaiket.
393

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:52:34
423. another wimp,or should I say a "stay at home bully"!
394

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:54:34
Whilst in recent years, North Sea oil production has been in decline, it is estimated that there are reserves of two billion tonnes in the North Sea - as much as has been produced in the last 25 years, with most oil fields being expected to remain economically viable until at least 2030. Recently with the prevailing high oil price, there has been a resurgence in oil exploration, specifically in the North East Atlantic basin to the west of Shetland and the Outer Hebrides, in areas that were previously considered marginal and unprofitable

#432..I have found something along with your post.

So Highland Mighty and others say the SNP is basing their arguments on the last 30 years? well okay.But going by Meths post lets base it on the future!!
395

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 05/03/2008 16:55:31
So there you have it - the much maligned LibDems and our leader Nicol Stephen had the guts to say "no deal" to both the SNP (who we acknowledged as the largest single party and therefore had the right to form a minority admin without our support as we don't think independence is good for Scotland) and the defeated Labour party - so no more talk of us selling our principles for ministerial mondeos etc from you gNATS.
396

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:58:23
Spot the Difference
Nicol Stepehen the Fiberal Unionist:
"The Scottish Liberal Democrats are a Unionist Party, and the Scottish Parliament has a clear Unionist majority."
Nicol Stephen the FibNat:
"We want a stronger Scottish Parliament; a Parliament with revenue raising responsibilities, with the greater powers needed to build the Scottish economy and boost Scottish jobs. We can't go on with a Parliament that just spends money given to it by another government."
Clear as mud then.
397

kimba,

05/03/2008 16:58:28
433, jeez, think you need a "chill pill" or your ears washing out,I said my dad supports me,not that he indoctrinates me!
398

Queen D,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 16:59:08
Good to have you aboard , Northern Irish Voice and English Visitor!
399

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 16:59:23
#436

Would you care to comment please??
400

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:01:23
439 Queen D,Glasgow 05/03/2008 16:59:08
Good to have you aboard , Northern Irish Voice and English Visitor


Thank you and i am humbled
401

The Master,

05/03/2008 17:03:21
#432 Meths: 30 years' worth of oil may see rich old Meths out as he lies on his sun lounger with a few beers, but it won't see the rest of us out and it won't pay for our children's hospital bills in old age....and you wonder why the vast majority back in Scotland are so anti separation!
402

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 05/03/2008 17:03:28
Ming Campbell is not telling the whole truth here. It is self evident that he sacraficed his Scottish party to do a dirty, grubby deal with Gordon Brown at Westminster. This was about Ming being promised a cabinet post in a Brown government and a pledge not to put the Tories into power. Does anyone think that Nicol Stephen had any say in the decision not to talk to the SNP? Of course he didn't. The change in attitude of the LibDems since Nick Clegg visited last week is quite startling. He knows the Scottish party was shafted by Campbell and they are desperately trying to retrieve the situation. Too late.
403

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:05:19
#436...Just for you..



It makes you wonder why we bother coming down to these English conferences at all," one Scottish delegate moaned.

And given that the leader's chief of staff, Ed Davey, described anywhere outside London, including Edinburgh, as "the sticks" fewer may bother making the trip next year.
Ah, so those nice Scottish Fibs don't actually like their English compatriots and refer to their British conference as 'English' and their English compatriots view them as yokels.
404

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:07:49
BRAKING NEWS, DO NOT TRUST THE LIBERALS
405

,

05/03/2008 17:08:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
406

The Master,

05/03/2008 17:08:23
#436 Liberal for Death: a friend of mine, who is good at stripping away the c*ap spouted by characters such as yourself, told me recently that the only reason the Libs didn’t do a deal with the Nats is that they want to get back in with Labour when the time comes. I just thought to myself: how true!
407

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:08:29
424. Thank you for amply demonstrating how Scotland is faring quite nicely in the UK.
408

danielrober,

05/03/2008 17:08:53
An Northern Irish Voice,

Whenmy greatgrand mother was asked to chose between Ireland and the UK she chose the UK (actually she chose her husband). An exception.

Lots of Anglo-Irsish families chose to stay in Ireland or move to Canada, OZ, NZ or even SA. The majority said stuff you and left for Califorina. Old Irish Navy families found employment in the American Navy and Coast Gaurd. Old families who had served 15 generations or more with the British-Irish regiments opted for the American Army. As for the Lawyers, well they are still found in LA, making millions.

The little deal between London and Dublin, you'll have them and I'll have them went to S**T.



When i have a knock at my door with some, darling's saying chose. Are YOU English or are YOU Scotish? I'll probably tell them both to go to hell. You see after almost a centruy of suffering we are now at last rebuilding our economy. Now our great leaders are saying 'Naw to much work'. What the heck do you think we've been doing over the last century, playing bridge (Good greif).

Con't
409

kimba,

05/03/2008 17:09:18
courtesy of my great fella LOL!
410

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 17:09:21
I note that one Gordon Broon was rather quick off the mark in offering his congratulations to the new President of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev. How long did it take to similarly congratulate Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond?
411

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:09:59
441. I think she was hinting at your dual-identity.
412

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:10:16
#444
Blimey with all that sort of oil revenue in an Independent Scotland we could reduce the seacatt fairs down to a more realistic price between our 2 countries.
413

The Master,

05/03/2008 17:11:39
#447 kimba: everyone who sees the Scots for what they really are (ie non Nats) knows that a vast proportion (particularly in west central Scotland) are a bunch of wasters. As a Scot, I agree that this is as good an argument against separation as any.
414

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 05/03/2008 17:12:42
hahahaha Kimba's gotta feller. Does he still have S.N.P. scrawled on his forehead after independence thugs held him down and vandalised his head with a biro?
415

kimba,

05/03/2008 17:13:48
452. AGES, LOL!
416

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:14:52
#450 I enjoyed reading your post. Brings a tear to my eye..
#455 Highland..With who? i am me and me only.
417

Fanling,

Guangdong 05/03/2008 17:15:13
#413 OscarMacApfel

Don't know if you meant to infringe my copyright on the He/she/it status of the anglo-numptie displayed as Kimba, but not to worry. That oddity is best avoided. He/she/it has a very severe identity complex, but sad to say, is unable to articulate the problem in plain English. Hence the barrage of stupid uninformed insults.

I lived in its purported hometown of Stockton-on-Tees a long time ago and encountered a single anti-Scot. She had personality problems too. Breaking news ...



418

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:15:18
454. I think AM2 has grown bored of the ever decreasing circles that these boards move in.

Wardog! I've just realised it's you! Do you still believe that having a strong economy, low national debt and a strong international voice are "meaningless"?!

That was you who said that, wasn't it?
419

danielrober,

05/03/2008 17:16:18
continued from 450

Will i chose to stay in the EU. - Too many subsidised competition.

Or will i chose to go to South Africa. - No I like soup too much to risk that.

Or will i chose to go to OZ and NZ. - NO too many subsidised guys here looking for work. SO nothing down there.

Or will i chose to go to Canada and the USA. - May be.

Or will i chose to a tiny pacific coutry with like 15,000 people and pay 5% a year tax rate. - May be, nice tan, top up my life style and chill.

Now what will happen to the UK or even the EU economy when another 600,000 (scots living in the UK outside of Scotland) to 4,000,000 (people who can affrd toleave the UK) other tax paying people make the same choice.

Collapse.
420

kimba,

05/03/2008 17:16:40
458,WHAT THE H-LL ARE YOU ON!
421

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:18:20
This is the unionist apology for losing a debate.

Accuse others of duel identity when they are being spanked.
Look towards the unionists posters and you will find the multiples
422

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 17:18:35
Highland Mighty (all over the place). Please have the good grace when you ask questions and have them answered have the humility to respond. Your questions on post154 I answered on 231. Interesting to note on your post279 that "27 people on my floor ......" Are you in prison, in a home for the deranged, an asylum per chance? Sounds like a possibility! You have been reading too many of AM2's irrelevant statistics.
423

kimba,

05/03/2008 17:20:57
461, That was nearly funny,perhaps you should return to dear old stockton and see the differance.
424

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:21:54
Highland Mighty,05/03/2008 17:15:18
454. I think AM2 has grown bored of the ever decreasing circles that these boards move in.


Now why would you know that? Seems to me you are losing the plot, the debate has being going well (ignoring kimba/Master)and yet all you keep going on about is duel identity? Go and eat some paranoid chips
425

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 17:23:15
:D Yeah, his head was vandalised by some guys dressed up as the Bay City Rollers, who went on to stick a "see you jimmy" hat on his head and call him "boab". Ahh, the casual anti-scot racist is back, with another in-form posting!
426

Edward,

05/03/2008 17:25:11
#447
Very telling and very very ignorant of facts!
Its telling that your say 'our underground' hmmmlet me see, that puts you in London
Your ignorant in that it wasnt Panama that bankrupted Scotland it was another part of the isthmus. And that came about through the greed of the monarch of the day, one King William of Orange, who had interests in Spain, Holland as well as England , ignoring the fact that he was King of Scotland. But thats history!.
In preent day Scotland, the Scottish population contribute more than enough in PAYE taxation as well as NIC that is sufficient to support themselves. In addition Scotland contributes a sizable VAT, Duty and Excise receipts. Scotland alone exports 25% of ALL spirits produced in the UK. Scotland pays over 4 billion pounds toward UK defence, plus a smaller amount towards overseas interests of the UK. Corporation tax from Scotland is equally large, with such large groups as RBS and HBOS based in Scotland. The corpartaion tax bill also runs into billions which goes into the UK treasury. Scotlands natuarl resources in the shape of oil and gas, which account for 97% of all UK production contribute billions to the UK treasury but are not atributed by Labour

NO ONE in Scotland works for UK central Government, so where you get 50% of the population is completely mythical

Basically you are a dilussional person who really needs to seek medical help, if your not already receiving same! Thankfully your not representative of the majority of the English people
427

danielrober,

05/03/2008 17:26:24
Continued from 463

What happens next. Well French banks that bought London land will make a fortune, for a week. Then Euro-Tunnel movement falls, oh dear. The highest users of premium energy are also the highest tax payers, so there goes EDF's investment.

Now there are six economies making 'double ended profits' from trading with the UK. 'Double ended profits' are those generated when you control the import and export trade between your country and another. So a martian who buys from the UK actually buys from another martians. He sells to a martian who then moves it to the UK on a Martian ship, to be sold by a Martian company, employing expat Martians into the UK economy.

Highend 'double ended profits', economies tied to the UK are - France, Germany, Spain, South Africa, OZ and NZ. Look to your pension guys these natinalists will sc**w 20 years of economic planning.



OR YOU CAN GIVE US ALL TIME TO ADJUST. TIME or Economic COLLAPSE?
428

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:26:28
Liberal Democrats - Lying Failures


The conference just keeps on getting worse for the libs. Channel four’s fact checker gave one of their worst ratings ever, after looking over Ming’s claim that their tax policy would help 90% of households. After examining their outrageous and absurd proposals Channel Four said:



There just isn't the evidence to back it up - and with the IFS, the country's most respected independent financial thinktank, unable to see how the necessary calculations could be done - there isn't likely to be any time soon.



Well it looks like the Liberal Democrats have been caught in the act again.

429

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 17:27:10
And they did implant unremovable miniature speakers into his ears, that played "shang-a-lang-a-lang" on constant loop. Damn SNP.
430

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:29:19
Liberal Democrats - A party of the people, for the people?
Squealer snorted again with delight this morning after reading what the leader of Edinburgh City Council wants to do to separate her from the ‘hoi polloi’. Finally the truth from the Fibs about what they really think of the citizenry (or subjects?). Jenny Dawe, the leader of Edinburgh City Council, and a Liberal Democrat (Aristocrat?) said, "…there are important civic occasions when I feel it would be important to set us apart from the hoi polloi".

As a part of the hoi polloi Squealer is as disgusted as everyone else by this rare truthful admission from the Fib Dems. Apparently to the Lib Dems some animals are more equal than others.

Naturally and rightfully this has sparked outrage – the Fibs want to play expensive dressing up while they close schools all over Edinburgh.

As our ex N.I Minister said.."NEVER NEVER NEVER TRUST A LIB DEM"
431

westview,

Avoiding labour sleaze 05/03/2008 17:30:33
Whatever length of time our oil lasts it will last the Scots 10 times longer than the UK ,as we have one tenth of its population. Norway is rich from its oil cash being invested in buying up shares of non oil companies through out the world. England has wasted the golden oppertunity to do the same. One of the reasons Gordon Brown ripped off the £billions from pension funds to prop up his debt ridden term in office.
432

Cam3,

05/03/2008 17:30:37
# 401 European Scot,

Thank you sir, you make some very good points. But for a few human comments from the likes of Geoff and English visitor, it really is Elves versus Mordor out there.

Yon maniac 'master' at #414 is the biggest fanatic I've ever seen! Frothing at the mouth because he's uncomfortable about nationalist voters being able to rationalise what a 'unionist' is. Really, these people are idiots and move in dark circles...

...also, your latter point is very much on the money.

It seems to me that the SNP were the ONLY party willing to put it to the people, and amazingly WITH the third question etc. The fact that the Fibdems didn't move then was simply extraordinary. Really, this still numbs me to this day. I hope their vote dies as it deserves to. The sheer transparency of the whole business was stunning. You could practically 'feel' Brown phoning Menzies.

If the unionists are so very SURE of this bizarre concept of a 'vote for the jack' then one would wonder why their leaders are so very fearful of putting it out there.

Conclusion? NEVER trust a politician who fears the will of the people. NEVER trust Scottish unionist parties. They're simply not about Scotland.

Politics can be a dirty game, but it doesn't get much dirtier than unionist pre/post/current maneuvering - of that I'm sure. Articles like this merely underline the mark.

With that in mind, I'll further attach my trust to the party that are not about fearmongering and are very much about Scotland.
433

danielrober,

05/03/2008 17:32:55
Oh yes i should point out i'm talking about people who can move. Not those on benefits, pensions, huge mortages etc, etc.

Please read # 234 danielrober, for an explanation of my rant.
434

The Master,

05/03/2008 17:33:12
#472 NI Voice: what a pity for the Nats that they chose to steal one of the Lib Dums' worst policies in local income tax! Surprise, surprise: no sign (to date) of the Libs reciprocating by stealing the Nats' equally unworkable independence policy. Perhaps the Nats and Libs should put their dud policies up for auction on ebay: independence and local income tax are 2 absolute plums!
435

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 05/03/2008 17:34:29
Kimba wrote:

"1)Your country only asked for a union with us because you went BANKRUPT!!!! After trying to colonise Panama


2)Only 64,000 people in Scotland are NET tax payers, the rest are leeching of us


3)50% of all jobs currently in Scotland are from UK central government, no UK government. In other words fake jobs to keep you off the streets.


4)Our underground system is full of Scottish beggars asking if we have any “spare change”

5)You all still seem to think it is the 17th century still. Nobody down here cares if you are church or chapel

6)You are a really ugly bunch of humans

7) Your weather is awful"

Priceless stuff! I mentioned before that you support the Union yet insist that Scots are a bunch of scroungers. So apparently your point is that 1) The Union should remain and 2) Scots should be sensible that they are a bunch of scroungers and be grateful for the union. You seem to have further expanded: 3) Scots should recognise their awful weather, how ugly they are, how behind the times they are - and be grateful for the Union that gives them less ugly people to look at, and a chance for Scots to beg in London.

Priceless stuff!
436

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:34:49
#478 The Kimba

Sorry but i only debate with grown ups, now run along..
437

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:35:07
463. Sadly, I can relate to that but, apart from the god-awful weather and the fast-breeding chavs, it'll do.

I've got a life, a good job with a decent wage, I like my town, the countryside just a mile away, I like my football and my rugby, and especially my local pub with its large roaring fire.

Too many people have this 'grass is greener' belief in their heads but ask anyone that has travelled around Europe or the US how life compares.

SA has too many problems to list.
The USA has rampant crime, poor public services and an unpleasant 'doughnut' income structure of lots of high-income earners, few middle-incomes and lots of low-earners.
France, Germany and Italy have many economic problems.
Aus/NZ, as you say, they are all here for some reason.

The only decent advantage many of these countries have over us is their weather.

God bless global warming, I say!
438

Cam3,

05/03/2008 17:35:48
Kimba = The lying King.

Really, Elton should write a score for this fruitloop...
439

Cam3,

05/03/2008 17:36:56
#481 - Highland misery 'God bless global warming, I say!'

Yup - your intelligence neatly surmised there...
440

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 17:38:25
I think the tokens at 70 Norton Road have run out now - its mince, tatties and injections time.
441

An Northern Irish Voice,

05/03/2008 17:39:29
#477danielrober,05/03/2008 17:32:55
Oh yes i should point out i'm talking about people who can move. Not those on benefits, pensions, huge mortages etc, etc.

Please read # 234 danielrober, for an explanation of my rant

#I have copied your posts onto my PC note book and shall have a look at them later. I have an appointment with the pub now.
As we say in Northern Ireland, "See you later wolf" "not if i see you first fox"

you get the flow?? by for now...
442

jdships,

05/03/2008 17:42:49
Anybody able to explain to me what the Lib/Dem's actually stand for ?
No ?
Any chance then if I read "Ming's" book I might find out ?
Then on the other hand perhaps he doesn't know !!
443

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:43:25
470. You can't bring up CT as that is paid on assets in the country of operation. All assets held by RBS and HBOS in England pay CT in England just as any assets in the US or France do.

RBS/HBOS assets in Scotland are a tiny fraction of overall income.
444

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:46:00
470. Lots of problems with your figures.

Scotland has "97% of ALL UK production"? No, we haven't.

95% of the North Sea but there are the massive gas fields plus the inland oilfields all over the UK as well.
445

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 17:48:34
489. That's 95% of the NS oil fields, not the NS in general.

Obviously!
446

bill-alba,

Fife 05/03/2008 17:49:50
Highland whatever....One indicater of support for independence could be that we have an SNP government despite all the best efforts of liars and people with no backbone..
447

Geoff,

sa 05/03/2008 17:53:38
481 Highland mighty-leaving aside the main barney for now you are right about the grass not being greener-SA is a stunning country with fantastic climate but sadly, almost insurmountable problems! Scotland is a beautiful country also-blo*dy awful climate but there are jerseys and Macs I suppose. On the subject as you know I am a fellow unionist but with friends like GB and Nu Labour our cause is imperilled i fear!
448

danielrober,

05/03/2008 18:03:10
485 An Northern Irish Voice

Fair enougth. As i said, give everyone time to adjust and all will be well. But if you bum-rush a country don't expect a happy ending.

After all its not only the wild fox and wild wolf that threaten the live stock. Best leave somthing for the sheep dog or he may look in the mirror and see 'wolf'.
449

danielrober,

05/03/2008 18:10:53
481 Highland Mighty,

Well said.

At the moment i'm happy moving around the UK, living and working. Every town really is similar to each other, yet locally different, which i like (I love local museaums) . But i do have kids and they need a place to call home. So I'd rather not have to make the decsision yet as i really will need a decade to change/separate my work.

SO come on political guys, do this nicely.
450

Juan Kerr.. :-),

05/03/2008 18:17:00
I just saw the article on STV news. What a horrible little sellout. Just shows how much he is willing to deny his country and the eleectorate a voice. And is he MAD ? Nicol Stephen? The one man opportunistic poison pill of Scottish politics.Has Brown got no goodwill for the future of his country he chooses this "renta tart"

As for Wendy agreeing that Scotland should go hang. That just goes to show the people she is working for. Not us.

She is quie happy for the Scottish Parlaiment to be a regional labour assembly. The people of Scotland want it working for us. So on that note. Wendy your no longer fit for the purpose of being an MSP. Purpose defunct.

451

indune1,

Canada 05/03/2008 18:19:07
Meths - you old scrounger!

How's the Licor 43?

Could do with some of it here.

20 cms of snow today and 50 predicted by Sunday.

Oh well, bodes well for the lake levels this summer as they have been low in the past few years (all those Yanks syphoning off our water!! Just joking, just joking!!)
452

Arfur,

05/03/2008 18:22:49
#447 kimba

My God where do I start!

2)Only 64,000 people in Scotland are NET tax payers, the rest are leeching of us - this is such a stupid comment that I am now 100% convinced that you have the mind of a child.


3)50% of all jobs currently in Scotland are from UK central government, no UK government. In other words fake jobs to keep you off the streets. - Ok again grow up. What about the fact that the biggest Brittish bank and sixth biggest in the world is situated in nearly ten offices around Edinburgh


4)Our underground system is full of Scottish beggars asking if we have any “spare change” - Edinburgh also has beggars from England, your point is caller?

5)You all still seem to think it is the 17th century still. Nobody down here cares if you are church or chapel - Ok you will find that Scottish people have invented some of the best th