Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 30th August 2008 Change Date

RBS Ambassador, Luke Donald

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

The great Scottish prisons gamble



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 02 July 2008
DRUG-DEALERS, burglars and some violent offenders would be spared jail and instead given tougher community sentences under controversial proposals in a new report.
After a nine-month investigation of the country's penal system, the Scottish Prisons Commission yesterday urged ministers in effect to scrap jail sentences of less than six months, except for violent and sexual offenders who "raise significant concerns about serious harm", and some other cases.

Henry McLeish, the commission's chairman and a former first minister, outlined 23 recommendations that he said would reduce Scotland's record prison population by about one-third, and called on the government to seize a "once-in-a-generation" opportunity to cut crime and high reoffending rates.

But experts warned that, by calling for a major shift away from the use of prison and towards community sentences, Mr McLeish was asking the Scottish Government to take a massive gamble.

They said that, while greater use of enhanced community sentences may eventually cut reoffending, the reliance on non-custodial punishments could damage public safety if significant improvements were not put in place.

At the heart of the proposed changes is a radical shift away from the use of prison for so-called "low level" crimes and towards beefed-up community sentences, which would begin as soon as sentence was passed.

Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, welcomed the report and said its recommendations would be considered over the summer before proposals were announced.

But as the commission cautioned ministers against cherry-picking its proposed reforms, Mr MacAskill faces a dilemma over whether to accept the report's recommendation to legislate against short-term prison sentences.

Other key recommendations include scrapping home detention curfews – the controversial practice of releasing prisoners early with a tagging order – and giving sheriffs the option of imposing "conditional sentences", which would mean offenders only being sent to prison if they failed to meet certain conditions imposed by the courts.

Offenders on community sentences would also be forced to attend "progress courts" to ensure they do not escape punishment.

In a further shift away from imprisonment, the report says the Parole Board should be allowed to impose non-custodial penalties on serious, long-term criminals who reoffend after they are released from jail.

The commission is also urging greater use of supervised bail orders to reduce the number of remand prisoners and says special youth hearings should be set up to take offenders aged 16 and 17 out of the adult courts.

Setting out the recommendations in the commission's 82-page report, Mr McLeish said Scotland faced two possible futures.

One had fewer people in prison, with only those presenting a serious threat of harm behind bars, coupled with widely used, well-respected community sentences producing low re-conviction rates. The other, which he said Scotland was heading towards, had many more overcrowded prisons, low morale among prison staff and social workers, a continuing "cycle" of crime and "record levels" of public distrust in the system.

"We have to make a choice between these two futures," he said. "A negative future is not inevitable and a positive one is not unattainable. Both are possible. One requires us to do nothing at all; the other will require us to think differently about what we want punishment to do and to make some changes in how we go about achieving this."

After unveiling the report, Mr McLeish told The Scotsman: "I'm convinced that, in the future, we will not only have safer communities, but if the government follows these recommendations, we will rehabilitate more offenders and will also be looked upon across Europe and globally as a model of how we can tackle the worst excesses of crime."

He admitted the measures would require government investment "in the short term", but said the commission had not estimated the cost. However, it argues that vast amounts of money could be freed up in the longer run by reducing the prison population.

His criticism of the current penal system was echoed by David Strang, Chief Constable of Lothian and Borders, who sat on the commission.

He said the practice of sending large numbers of offenders to jail for less than six months was "not working".

But criminal justice experts warned that the proposed overhaul of the penal system could have disastrous results, unless community sentences were transformed.

Mike Nellis, professor of criminal and community justice at Strathclyde University in Glasgow, said: "This is a brave report.

The success of these measures depends on whether criminal justice social work departments can rise to the challenge."

Andrew McLellan, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, praised the report and told Mr McLeish at the launch: "I welcome almost all of this. A lot of it is just sensible. It's a moment that comes once in a generation."

But Bill Aitken, the Scottish Tories' justice spokesman, rejected much of the commission's work. "In the SNP's soft-touch Scotland, you have to be very unlucky to end up in jail. Where the report hits the mark is when it recommends the blindingly obvious," he said.

Offenders could be given another chance

UNDER the proposals outlined by Henry McLeish yesterday, many criminals will face a fundamentally different form of punishment to the one they currently receive.

Take the example of someone who commits, say, their fifth housebreaking.

After the first two, the sheriff imposes a fine. But that fails to deter him from reoffending, perhaps partly because the criminal has a drug problem.

So after the third and fourth break-ins, the offender receives 140 hours of community sentence and a probation order intended to address the causes of his offending.

But he fails to turn up at his work placement and goes on to commit his fifth offence.

That scenario, faced regularly by sheriffs, would probably result in him being sent to prison for a short period, perhaps four months.

The sentence would reflect social outrage over his continued offending, and the failure of other means to stop the cycle of crime.

But under the commission's plan, the criminals would probably be given another chance.

The four-month sentence the sheriff was minded to impose would have to be turned into a Community Supervision Sentence, which would require the offender to "pay back" for his crimes, by a combination of work in the community, a requirement that he attend a treatment centre for his drug problems, and meetings with his victims.

While offenders given community sentences are sometimes left alone for weeks before they start their work, this criminal would be taken straight from the dock to a team responsible for administering the punishment. The punishment would, in effect, start straight away.

Mr McLeish says he wants community sentences to be more visible, but says requiring offenders to wear special outfits to mark them out would be "degrading".

The commission's report indicates that prison could only be imposed if this tougher community sentence fails to stop him in his tracks.

But if Mr McLeish's brand of community sentences are ineffective, the result is likely to be more crime.

Judges hamstrung by report that lacks new ideas

Commentary: Ian Simpson


THE report of the Scottish Prisons Commission expresses noble aspirations, and constructive thought has gone into its preparation.

However, I have to question how the proposals to speed up the sentencing process will work in practice, and it is depressing to note that two new quangos have been conceived.

Both the proposed new National Sentencing Council and Community Justice Council will require premises, staff and money that would be better spent on making what we have better. If they come into being they will have overlapping functions, so there will be scope for turf wars.

I particularly dislike the erosion of judicial control of sentencing. There are to be guidelines. These will not come from the Appeal Court or from discussion with fellow judges, but from the new quango. Will it have enough people of real, practical experience on it? Sheriffs will also be hamstrung in imposing short sentences of less than six months (which will still mean only three months inside).

Before such a sentence can be imposed, regard must be had to a range of factors. It will, I suspect, be necessary to use some judicial ingenuity before jailing a bad second or third-time drink-driver or a disqualified driver who has similarly reoffended.

The remedy for short sentences is to be a new device called a "conditional sentence".

It is to be a non-implemented jail sentence ringed with conditions. The central buzz-word will be "payback". You can pay back by rehabilitating yourself, paying compensation, being tagged or doing unpaid work. If you do not comply, the jail sentence hanging over you will be imposed.

Almost all of this is already available more flexibly. We have probation orders, community service orders, restriction of liberty orders and compensation orders. If you do not comply you are brought back to court when custody may or may not be imposed, depending on all the circumstances. Apart from the vocabulary, what's really new?

The commission wants judges to discuss cases with social workers before deciding on "the best form of payback". This might save the social workers writing reports, but in a busy court this will waste much judicial time, and I wonder how long the social workers might have to hang around – probably longer than it takes to write a report. There will then be appearances at a "progress court" to check that all is well.

We need adequate resources for whatever procedures we have. As the report points out, we need secure places other than jail for those with mental-health problems.

The report also pays tribute to the success of drug treatment and testing orders. That makes my point: they are properly resourced. Probation and community service are not now adequately resourced. And hamstringing judges will not cure prison overcrowding.

• Ian Simpson is a former sheriff

COMMUNITY SUPERVISION

THE commission recommends that the government require courts, which would otherwise have imposed a sentence of six months imprisonment or less, to instead impose a community supervision sentence.

A sheriff would only be able to impose a short sentence if a limited set of circumstances applied.

These include if the case involved "violent and sexual offences that raise significant concerns about serious harm"; if the offence involved a breach of bail conditions; if the offender was already subject to a community sentence, and if the offender was subject to a release licence.

SENTENCING COUNCIL

THE setting up of a National Sentencing Council (NSC) Is recommended by the commission. This would develop clear guidelines for sentencing to applied across Scotland.

The commission says patterns of sentencing, including community sentences, vary greatly across the country. In order to command the support of the public the commission says sentencing and the management of sentencing must be more consistent and transparent as well as effective. The NSC would, the commission argues: "drive forward consistency and improve effectiveness."

TEENAGERS IN PRISON

THE report also addresses the detention of 16 and 17 year olds in adult prisons.

The commission argues young offenders may be negatively influenced by older inmates and suggests the Government explore options for placing the older teens in secure youth facilities, away from both older offenders and those under 16. It also recommends ministers re-examine the case for putting 16 and 17 year olds in front of Specialist Youth Hearings which would give a wider option for sentencing than presently available under the Children's Hearing System. This would place Scotland in line with international conventions.

JUSTICE COUNCIL

A NATIONAL Community Justice Council ( NCJC) would bring about improved services for ex-prisoners and help implement changes in a "diverse" criminal justice system, the commission claims.

It says such a quango should work alongside their suggested National Sentencing Council to enhance public understanding of, and confidence in, the credibility of both sentencing and the management of community sentences.

The NCJC should also work with the Scottish Prison Service and the Parole Board for Scotland to enhance the credibility of release and resettlement arrangements.

COMMUNITY SENTENCES

JUDGES should be provided with a wide range of options through which offenders can "pay back" to the community, the commission says.

There should be one single Community Supervision Sentence (CSS) with a wide range of possible conditions and measures, it recommends, to compensate or repair harms caused by crime. This might unpaid work or engaging in rehabilitative work.

The also Commission recommends the establishment of "progress courts" for swift and regular review of progress and compliance with community sentences – and that deal robustly with offenders who do not pay back.

HOME DETENTION

THE current Home Detention Curfew scheme – known as tagging – is used by prison governors to facilitate early release.

However, the commission claims conditional sentences – where the period of custody is suspended as long as the offender keeps to a strict set of requirements – are more appropriate and transparent.

The report is recommending that the current Home Detention Curfew scheme should now be terminated – subject to the full implementation of all its other recommendations on conditional sentencing.

HOW THE NUMBERS ADD UP ON CRIME





The full article contains 2201 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 July 2008 9:26 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

Ken_Fitlike,

02/07/2008 00:34:37

Ian Simpson raises some good points, the creation fo two further quangos would appear unnecessary, surely there must be another way of implementing the proposals as recommended., which appear well informed and robustly backed up with some quite frightening statistics.

It's interesting that both Labour + the Tories should dismiss this report given both's previous failings and indeed causing of the current crisis.

Brown even had to dip into UK DEL Reserve to pay for more prison in England caused by his parties policy decisions, no Barnett consequential as yet ofcourse.

I look forward to seeing the SNP's proposal after the summer.

Good to hear Kenny's forthright views that there is a critical issue to be tackled here, how refreshing to here a Justice Minister who is actually sruosuly trying to tackle Scotlands shame in these areas.







2

jamboden,

02/07/2008 00:50:19
build more prisons.
3

bring them on,

02/07/2008 00:58:37
#2

Agree. Build some off-shore facilities. There is plenty water out there.
4

Schot,

02/07/2008 01:02:19
Prisons just make prisoners worse, we should avoid sending anyone to prison at all costs for all our good.

The Scotsman should republish that last graph next to every prison story. Do we really think US citizens are eleven times more criminal by nature than Norwegains ?

Socts are twice as criminal by nature than Norwegians ?


This 'post-code lottery' of imprisonment is obviously more the fault of our states than of our citizens.
5

Ken_Fitlike,

02/07/2008 01:09:05
#2 + 3

It's costing over £40k per prisoner. each year.

Surely that money would be better spent on the victims and in regenerating communities, rather than paying for free board and three meals a day.

6

brian mcc,

the arctic 02/07/2008 01:39:17
The proposal may reduce prison size by 1/3
Just imagine what cell restrains the 2/3
A 2nd or 3rd chance with opportunity to work

Could return to the days of public humiliation
Some offenders are chronic, add a drug problem,
You have a nightmare history is beginning to record

It is not a problem unique to Scotland
When someone enters the wrong door on a housebreak
Who would miss him buried 6 feet under

I wouldn't even call the police
7

bring them on,

02/07/2008 01:43:00
#5

I would recover the cost by having them drill for oil.
8

Teofilio Cubillas,

02/07/2008 02:50:43
#4 The major difference between Norway and Scotland is Norway's complete lack of the welfare dependant, slack-jawed, fag-smoking underclass we have in Scotland who lack any social and employment skills. To them, prison is an occupational hazard as supplementing the disability benefit by small-time drug-dealing and shoplifting is now a second or third-generation way of life.

The only way to break this cycle(apart from long-term investment in what passes for education these days)is to reduce dependance on welfare and get these wasters into some form of useful employment. We've had 30 years of liberal hand-wringing hogwash about how jail doesn't work. Maybe not, but the alternatives are even worse.
9

Schot,

02/07/2008 03:24:05
@8
The US has imprisoned more than five times as many of it's population than Scotland. By your logic we can blame that on american "welfare dependant, slack-jawed, fag-smoking underclass" compared to us upright Scots ?

Nonsense, the difference is a societal failure most likely rooted in political incompetence or chicanery.

Would you really be happy if our imprisonment rate soared to the US's ?

31% - crimes of dishonesty ! How many liars really need locking up ? That really has potential for US levels of incarcaration since there are plenty liars who go unprosecuted. It is an imbalance of power reminiscent of the Eastern Germany.

I think we urgently need to cut our prison population to Norwegian standards, and I think the sensible way to do that is to study how the Norwegians are so successful.
10

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 06:37:23
The SNP are correct. I would far rather citizens were punched in the face than inconvenience a violent thug by sending them to jail.

Maybe there so called victims will bruise or be slightly disfigured permanently, but that is nothing compared to the distaste of putting a thug in a cage.

Don't you know they get angrier when you punish them for violence?
11

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:38:56
#9. Most offenders are male and the majority of them are probably young males between the ages of 15 and 25. What is the one thing this segment of humanity has that other segments don't? The answer is tons of testerone mixed with physical strength. On how many occasions do strong men with lots of testosterone listen to reason? Are they in fact listening at all? Do they give a f#ck? In all probability, they will not see reason until they hit 35 and until then they will always do what they can get away with. This is why liberal solutions never work as they are completely out of kilter with biology. I think we need to have a male solution to a male problem. The only way young men are ever going to behave is if they are completely shagged out. My solution (which I have reached reluctantly and I am not ex-military) is to conscript them into a local regiment. A very hard corporal could then run them around all day. Education could be thrown in after the run when they are tired and they can sit still and concentrate. Many would actually enjoy it and they would get more self-worth as they became even fitter and stronger. Is this going to happen? Not whilst we have the Human Rights Act.
12

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:42:39
I should also add that any woman in authority in the penal system, who thinks young men should be reasoned with instead of disciplined, should first take a course of testosterone so she knows what she is up against.
13

bring them on,

02/07/2008 06:44:20
#11

It worked on the Eastern Front in WWII
14

Eckyboo,

02/07/2008 06:47:10
If these thugs are not being sent to Prison then they should work. However they should work on chain gangs as in America with Prisoner fully emblazened on a brightly coloured uniform for all to see. After work they should be sent to their homes and tagged so they cannot leave with proper supervision working for the Prison Service not some private custodial firm who dont give a damn whether the offender is at home or not.
15

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 06:47:34
Henry McLeish's proposals are commendably humane and economically sound.We must throw our wrongdoers' a firm lifeline while protecting the Scottish budget and spending more of it on the things that can help them from falling by the wayside in the first place. But community sentences must be far tougher and I'd devise a way to tighted the tags electronically if offenders put a foot wrong.Literally. So, I'm not a trendy Liberal. Far from it. But the size of Scotland's jail population is a national disgrace.Our Henry - bless him - has found a way we can escape the national shame. Let's get behind him and give his well reasoned proposals our wholehearted support.
16

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:47:39
#13. Eastern Front is a bit extreme but a daily 6 mile run shouldn't be a problem - as long as the corporal isn't going to be sued under the Human Rights Act for hurling abuse.
17

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:51:54
Actually Willie Whitelaw's 'short, sharp, shock' was quite popular with young male inmates. They used to enjoy the square-bashing. I think it was shot down by the lieral establishment but I would need to check my facts on that.
18

bring them on,

02/07/2008 06:57:43
#17

Royster

Put them in a Japanese jail.

They have two systems, one for Japanese and the other for foreigners. Both involve working a 10 hour day, and marching for one hour. Neither much fun.

Needless to say, not too many reoffenders.

But that would never work, would it?
19

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/07/2008 06:58:08
Boot Camp. Never mind softy andy pandy jail sentences. And who lisens to a tory mp in SCOTLAND any more, the labour party is heading the same way, the sooner the better for those thieves and liars. SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE is our only way forward. The Glaswegians need to break out of their STUPID socialist world!!!!!!
20

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/07/2008 07:00:20
Describing them as young men isn't adequate either or helpful.

The majority in US gaols are from the black underclass, not from the white underclass. In Scotland the majority of young men do NOT end up in gaol; again it's mainly a recognisable segment of the population that do.

The moral here is to study this group, find out what has gone wrong with their lives and then DO SOMETHING POSITIVE about it.

I can offer some suggestions: they have bad parents and bad childhood experiences; they lack positive role models; their school attendance was poor; they have no qualifications; they have no jobs. All in contrast to what kids from other areas have enjoyed.

Isn't it plain what needs to be done? Come on SNP: now's your chance for some serious policy making.
21

Royster,

02/07/2008 07:18:12
#20. Yes but most young men don't want a criminal record - not a good career move. Those that don't care can get away with what they want and will not be influenced by reason. Judging from what I have read above it seems like we have a whole industry (social workers, parole officers) involved over what should be a pretty straight forward situation. Now it appears that a further chance is going to be given and another househoder - possibly with young kids - is going to have to suffer another break-in before a prison senetence is imposed.
22

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 07:20:09
Do we really want this scum on our streets on "community service"?
23

Scudder,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 07:26:38
This is a National bloody scandal,.,.
Build more prisons ,,, after all thanks to this Labour government we have a huge un-used ( unemployed ) work force doing nothing else ,,
Get real ,,,, Keep the scum OFF our streets !
24

Royster,

02/07/2008 07:28:16
#20. I hate to go down this route but are relative testosterone levels the same throughout different ethnic groups? I am not trying to advance any theories here but it would be interesting to know if there has been any serious medical research done in this field.
25

James1480,

USA 02/07/2008 07:30:05
What are the odds of the folks "taking the gamble" having their heads kicked in by these losers? It will probably be someone elses head. Don't you good people have a remote northern island you can dump these little animals on until their sentence is served? Give 'em a couple of fish hooks and some line and wish'em good luck until next year. Wish we could do it. But we've got to give them three hots and a cot, plus medical, plus love and understanding, plus education(a lot of our crooks come out with a college degree, no tutition for them!)which makes for some smart crooks, plus counciling.... It just goes on and on and on. And I have to get up every morning and go to work so that we can keep this thing rolling along.
26

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 07:32:13
What I love about the barmy SNP/Labour mentality is that to mark offenders would be "degrading". I mean wtf? Committing crime is degrading, crime is shameful, but to let a criminal associate shameful embarassment and degredation with their own criminal activities is bad? C'mon SNP/Labour get real.

Ok lad you punched someone in the face, but we don't want you to feel bad about it, there is no embarassment or shame to violence, it's just a form of self-expression.

SNP/Labour are ruining this country.
27

Media 1,

cape town 02/07/2008 07:40:49
Sometimes it is tough to see the wood for the trees, but if you look closely you can see the future based on the past.
Once upon a time it was normal to excecute people in public, but that was eventually scrapped and the excecution was taken indoors. Then excecution was scrapped altogether. There was a time when life was life, but that was replaced for life with parole, then that was changed to life meaning 12 years or life 12 years with parole. Now we are looking at allowing criminals to avoid jail alotgether. You see what happens when you move away from what is conceived as barbaric? You end up with a society in which the good are punished and the bad are rewarded.
BUT! These things go full circle, so in effect what is actually happening is that the government are permitting it to go full circle and allowing things to become so outrageous that a call for a return to the death penalty will eventually be embraced by the public at large.
Once the death penalty in reinstated, all sentencing becomes tougher and all jail time becomes harder as opposed to easier.
The first step in tackling crime must be to scrap the dole system and replace it with a community service system in which all members of the dole must work for their money. Unless you have a 40 hour per week work stamp you dont get your money. This means that dole workers will be out of their bed and off to work like the rest of the world, this will give them routine in their lives, it will also offer them some much needed self pride and before long they will be looking for better paid jobs.
Once that system is off the ground we will have less criminals on the street, which means we can deal harshly with the ones we have.
28

observer9,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 07:59:29
Using thousands of peoples free labour could reduce working families council tax.

Have them cut grass, mend & paint fences & lamposts, pick up rubbish and a zillion other things that don't need skilled labour and make sure they do it in their own neighbourhoods.

To me this seems very sensible and shouldn't require too many support groups to deliver it if controlled properly.
29

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 02/07/2008 08:06:10

What is McLeish doing chairing a Justice Commission? If there were any justice in Scotland this man would be serving 5 years for fraud and theft from the public purse. The man rented out his MSP office in Fife to another organisation and pocketed the cash for a number of years. He was dismissed from the post of First Minister and had to give up his role as an MSP - but he pocketed £100k a year for life as FM Pension.

Now he's back on the quango gravy train. Nice one 'Enry.
30

Jacqueline Hyde ,

02/07/2008 08:30:21
Thanks to the Human Rights Act and the baying of media hounds, sentencing in Scotland was on the brink of being no more than an judicial revenge for victims - as is already the situation in England.

Sentences must be both a punishment and a deterrent - and handed out solely on behalf of society in general. If the deterrent doesn't work (ie if the criminal re-offends or others aren't put off by the sentences for the crime) then the punishment is inadequate and must be increased until the deterrent becomes effective.

It may seem like a contradiction in terms but heavier sentencing will actually reduce the prison population.

I'm all in favour of Community Service in the right circumstances but offenders should be required to report for work at their nearest jail - where they can get a whiff of the real thing - and not some cosy office.
31

Teofilio Cubillas,

02/07/2008 08:31:22
#9 Schot

I wouldn't class someone who breaks into my house at three in the morning and steals my property as a mere 'liar'. I wouldn't class those so called 'travellers' who purport to 85-year olds to be from the gas board and then steal their life savings as mere 'liars' and I wouldn't class those Roma pickpockets who are targetting the elderly in Princes Street just now as mere 'liars'. All classed as crimes of dishonesty though. As I say, it's 30 years of your liberal hand-wringing hogwash that's brought us to this.
32

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/07/2008 08:43:52
You lot sound like Sun or Daily Mail readers. Are you sure this is the right paper for you or your views? Or are you all admirers of Osama BL? The SNP? Hands chopped off, anyone?
33

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/07/2008 08:59:07
i heard this week that so-called celebrities are lecturing us about yobs "rights" because they are anti-american read my lips: build more prisons lock em up and throw away the key the last to leave please turn out the light this post will probably be deleted! . its the ethnic minorities gays and lesbians complaining again. pregnant children are always complaining. mark my words lock our kids away to save them. what happened to great britain?!!! Can't you see that islamofacists are pandering to minorities because they want to destroy the world! when will Gordon close the borders now. It's that simple!!! global warming, climate change, no such thing, its just another TAX! .I read that single motehrs are inviting in paedophiles and AIDs. Time to act: get rid of them. This is very disturbing to me!?? mark my words i have been realising over the past few years that benefits cheats are telling us what to do ti is vital that we vote bnp s oon this country will be majority muslim with a moski n every village did you know that nu-labour is getting tax-payers money it s time we elect jeremy clarkson as prime minister next stop chaos
34

Royster,

02/07/2008 09:00:54
#32. Don't be such a snob. I'd be very happy with a liberal system - if it worked. It plainly doesn't and now teenagers are being stabbed to death regularly on the the streets because there is little in the way of deterrence.
35

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 09:05:17
i think people need to get behind the proposals.

i see the red tops took a reasoned line on this today. SNP emptying the jails etc etc. Never mind that the head of the commission was a former Labour first minister, with contributions from a world expert in criminal justice and prison systems, high ranking police officials etc.

seriously, what good does it do for anyone for people to go in and out of prison in a revolving door. prison should be a punishment not a place where you put the "naughty people" out of harming's way. if you cant see the baddies, they don't exist.

its time to start actually doing something to actively rehabilitate people. this isn't liberal handwringing or pinko politics. reoffending rates for community based sentences are 43%. thats nearly 20% lower than for people who get sent to prison.

we need to give it time to work but i think it can work. the number of people behind bars in scotland is totally ridiculous.
36

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/07/2008 09:08:03
#34 Royster.

Who is advocating a liberal system? Not I. What I do advocate is what I wrote in 20 above. This hanging/flogging outburst is sickening. Are they all SNP supporters?
37

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 09:10:27
36 I think you'll find that the hang-em and flog-em types come from all kinds of political backgrounds.

unless of course, you are so rabidly anti-SNP that you believe only supporters of the LibDems, Labour and perhaps Tory party are reasoned philosophers with an accute understanding of human psychology.
38

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 09:44:37
1 - build more prisons. Doesn't matter about the cost, we NEED more prisons.
2 - impose longer sentences, and abolish automatic remission. Make them serve the sentence intended by the court.
3 - cut the costs of these new prisons by cutting out all the 'luxury' items like colour tvs, playstations etc - they're there to be punished.
4 - if we must consider 'community based' sentences, then make them meaningful. Make them wear distinctive clothing, and put them to hard work, on the roads, in gardens, in the fields, anything which might make them think twice about re-offending.
5 - abolish kenny Macaskill. Waste of space.
6 - anything else which hurts them where it hurts most.
7 - abolish Kenny Macaskill. Balloon.
39

Guga II,

Rockall 02/07/2008 09:52:14
#37. Good one, but #36 can't help himself. He's not Scottish, like a number of the posters on this thread, and continually rants against the SNP.
40

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 09:52:18
I do enjoy the Labour/SNP combination.

Punching someone in the face repeadetdly is no longer an actual crime worthy of a jail sentence.

The solution is to get all those people who punch people's faces in back into the communities as soon as possible. There is nothing more reassuring to someone who has had their face punched in to be eye-balled by the offenders as they sweep the streets with the menacing threat of a revenge beating.

Naturally of they accidently kill you they will get 5 years for manslaughter or in the case of the brothers who recently left their victim blind in one eye they will get 2 years.

The SNP/Labour are a f**king menace to society.

As for you bleeting scum-bags talking about how you and Kenny MacAskill can't see it being to anyone's benefit to jail people, well ask someone who's been punched in the face or kicked in the ribs. Seeing someone go to Jail gives you the reassurance that if it happens again they will be put in a cage again.
41

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 09:52:30
IF community service is imposed it needs to be Structerd of use to the community, High profile (vest clearly showing its an offender at work) and above all HARD WORK.

If they are sent to prison yet again it has to be of benifit both to the community and the prisoner in particular addressing drug problems there is no point sending a addict to jail without dealing with there addiction (and i dont mean dishing out methadone) but yet again it has to be hard work.

A prison officer once told me of a character who every christmas would vandalise shop fronts in princes street in order to have a bed and a hot meal for christmas day there must be a better way in dealing with such people.

But for drug dealers, drink drivers, and violent crimes hard harsh prison sentances need to be imposed.

sending a ned to polton for a months detention does nothing bar improve their street cred amongst there peers
42

Guga II,

Rockall 02/07/2008 09:55:46
#38. Totally agree about abolishing that waste of space Kenny MacAskill. He's the one that doesn't want to gaol anyone under the age of eighteen, even if they are violent neds and thugs. Plus, of course, he's the one that's pushing for changes to legislation on alcohol to punish the majority for the wrongdoings of a minority; rather than just enforcing existing legislation.
43

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:01:01
41 Thistle the liberal donkey

What a well rounded post, I particularly enjoyed reading the detailed consideration you gave to the victim of crimes need and wants.
44

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:01:02
40 - diddums.

One of my pet hates are those reactionary types who think that building prisons is the answer to everything. if it was, crime would be zero right now because we have more people behind bars than ever before.

Another one of my pet hates is people who have a view on crime and criminality who cannot understand or comprehend a slightly more cerebral approach than "lock em up and throw away the key" and defend their stance by moaning about how they/someone else they know - have been a victim of crime, as if anyone else who disagrees with you hasn't been.
45

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:04:32
It's a very interesting one this.

We see from comments such as 38 the determination of many people to ignore the reality that in most cases prison does not work in favour of building more and more of them to lock more and more people up for longer periods of time.

Apart from the fact that this will mean cuts in other services to pay for it the implications have not been properly thought through. I remember reading some incredible statistic that in certain council wards one in three young men have been charged with an offence. What happens if you lock all of them away? I suppose you could see it as a kind of selective breeding programme for schemies.

The sad thing is that there will be a lot of people who would support a 'final solution' type of approach to intergenerational poverty and crime.

However the fact that this is an independent review chaired by an ex Labour First Minister will hopefully de-politicise the subject somewhat and allow some real progress to be made.
46

Daisychain,

Ireland 02/07/2008 10:07:51
Maybe we should keep the dealers and violent offenders out of prison so there's space for all the single mums and pensioners who can't pat their council tax bills...?
47

Daisychain,

Ireland 02/07/2008 10:09:07
Oops , typo.. that should read "can't PAY their bills" !
48

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:09:19
44

You keep hatred as a pet? Wierdo.

If someone punches someone in the face or kicks someone in the ribs or is found to be carrying a lethal weapon like a knife they should be put in a cage for the protection of society.

If someone steals some fashion from a shop then they should not be jailed.

I would like to say this already happens and so MacAskill should leave it be, but all that lazy sh*te is doing is decriminalising punching someone's face in or carrying so that he doesn't have to answer to the electorate about why thugs are on the loose.

Kenny "the balloon" MacAskill is worse than Gordon at statistical Stalinism, the numbers look bad on crime guv, hmmm, well let's decriminalise a few things that way next month there will less recorded crime.

I might punch MacAskill in the face if I'm ever passing through Musselburgh, it would be worth leaning on a shovel for a day.
49

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 10:12:58
Marthalions i am far from a liberal beleive me but haveing spent a day in polment and haveing to deal with neds on a regular basis sending them for a months holiday benifits no one.

how is sending someone to sit in a cell listening to the radio for a month or two going to stop them reoffending.
50

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:16:57
49 Thistledhu the liberal donkey

Hard to re-offend when you're in a cage.
51

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:19:34
48 No it doesn't already happen.

Why don't you read the report before commenting?

You clearly have not read it. But as is often the case on these boards that won't stop you commenting!

52

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:20:43
50 - it is hard to reoffend while you are in a cage. until of course, they get out then they can reoffend and the whole sorry circus continues.

still, as long as the criminals are out of sight for a couple of months, that'll keep people happy, eh?

never mind that when they come out the chances are that they will reoffend.

you also seem to have a bizarre fascination with faces and ribs. was that where you took your beating?

again, just because you have been a victim of crime and you think locking people up is the answer, it doesn't mean that every victim of crime agrees with you.
53

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:21:55
Decent person...

Don't pay council tax - jail

Don't pay tv licence - jail

Don't pay income tax - jail

Speeding - Automatic financial penalty

Accidently get paid to much tax credit - have to pay it back

Scumbag does...

Punch someone in the face - nothing

Kick someone in the ribs - nothing

Shoplift - nothing

Fraudulently claim benefits - nothing


So, all that society is demanding is that common criminals be treated the same way as decent people. Isn't that equality? Why do we need to pander to them?
54

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 10:24:48
yep cant offend while twiddleing your thumbs at the tax payers expense but once your out with your tax payer provided bevvy mony in your back pocket they can and certainly do.

Visit polmont if you can get the chance its an eye opener
55

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:29:01
yes, lets just put all them "scumbags" in jail because clearly, it's working. it's working so well, that we're having to put more people in jail than ever before.

some issues are too complicated for the simple answers that people want.
56

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State.....Coatbridge 02/07/2008 10:29:25
"Keep the scum off our streets" one post said...just exactly how do we differentiate with some who run about in 4 by 4's; known by the Police and local community but are impervious to any kind of investigation by dint of who they know in high places.....and their victims who use the drugs they sell ?? Who are the "real" criminals or scum here...those who are hooked or those who perpetuate the criminal culture....and just as much.......those who let them away with it to keep statistics in line with the political requirements ??
57

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:30:16
54

Exactly why won't people reoffend after a week of leaning on a broom or shovel?

Seems a little unscientific to me.

Did you see that parole officers were accepting excuses for missed meetings such as "I slept in". Your new boondoggle project will be just the same, there is no way it will have enough manpower to get the lazy sh*tes out of bed on time, and no way to force them to actually do any hard work.

What I love about it, is that you will force them to do that with the threat of jail. LOL.

So your argument is essentially the same as everyont elses, threat of jail effects behaviour, but rather than stop violent crime you'd prefer to use jail threats to enforce the leaning onto a shovel for a week before going back out to punch someone in the face again.
58

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:30:32
One of the many interesting things the report highlights is that there is strong evidence that political factors have more influence on high
imprisonment rates in countries than crime does.Imprisonment rates are higher in countries with
two-party political systems where the parties try
to out-bid one another in terms of tough penal
policies - not because they work but because that is what the public (often driven by the media) want. Whereas in multi-party democracies those conditions don't exist to the same extent.

It is also the case that countries which spend the most on prisons spend the least on general social welfare. That is the answer to the point made at 8 which actually couldn't be more wrong. Countries like Norway spend far more on childcare, early intervention and education than we do. Of course they have all of their own money to spend which is another difference between us. The link between poor education and imprisonment is very clear.
59

Gunn,

UK 02/07/2008 10:31:39
Build more prisons? If we can't run the current ones properly so that they actually work, where is the point of building new ones?

And besides, there are a great many people in prison who are quite harmless. For example, as a general rule, the majority of murderers killed someone from their immediate family and/or they were drunk when the crime was committed. It is highly unlikely that someone who killed a family member will pose much of a risk to Society. Similarly, crimes committed while under the influence of booze are not so likely to be repeated if the offender can be kept away from alcohol. So, what possible benefit is there to Society if mostly harmless people are kept in prisons that might otherwise be used to house more dangerous people?

And where are the educational and psychological training programmes which might be used to reduce re-offending? There seems no point in putting someone in prison so s/he may emerge from there even trained by their fellow inmates to be even better criminals, all for want of job and social skills training, which ought to be used to keep them busy from dawn until dusk, so there would be little or no time for unhealthy fraternisation with other inmates.

So, I'd suggest free on license (with all appropriate conditions) all those who pose no risk to Society), use the space that gives, and the resources this free up, to re-educate, even indoctrinate, the career criminals and dangerous ones amongst them.
60

Neale,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 10:31:42
You might as well issue them with a Burglary License, which will only be temporarily revoked once they reach their allocation.

Worse is that what we are talking about here is prosecutions, not actual crime, for every time they are caught committing a crime how many other times have they got off with it? Statistics show that prosecutions rates are already low. The example of burglars getting 4 or 5 chances of being caught and successfully prosecuted (not of actually committing the crime) strikes me with fear and alarm. Have any of these law makers ever been burgled, its enough to make you want to move house as all you worked for can be ruined by a callous burglar.

How many chances do criminal need? I think that an increased likelihood of being caught, prosecuted and punished accordingly is the best deterrent.
61

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:33:36
Lets be honest about the first problem. It is us men that need to be sorted and mainly through a specific age range.

Recipe For Success.

1. At 16-18 all men not in education or full time employment should be put into military style service but not an actual combat role. More of an regional defence force. Building pride and purpose not breaking them down. Teaching them skills, keeping them active and sober(ish) and off the streets. Like a technical/military college. Also use them to improve area doing much of the council maintainence works.

2. Work out what society requires of sentencing. 14 years for frauding the Taxman yet 8 years for stabbing someone in the chest? Total sentencing review.

Establish what is and what is not a serious offence that requires jail time based on modern idea's of justice.

3. Police on the streets in numbers initially and let them give the little b'stards a slap from time to time. It really works, always has done.

4. Leave EU court of human rights. Lefty liberal dafties that stop us exporting maniacs and terrorists.

5. Treat junkies the way we treat alcoholics medically not custodially. jailing them then kicking them out on the streets does not help.

62

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:38:27
Looking at the table of statistics it is clear to see the USA has the most private industry and pressure groups involved in keeping prison population as high as possible.

Life in prison for 3rd offences. I saw an article where a man got life for stealing a toilet seat in LA because it was third offence. The cost to society was about $1million. Good business not much sense.
63

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:38:48
57 - or kick them in the ribs, perhaps?

64

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:43:49
63

Yes that's right kicking and punching people isn't actually a crime until you blind them or cause them permanent brain damage.

Then you just turn up in court, say you merely meant to kick them in the head or punch them on the face, blame their injuries on "the fall", Judge accepts that and they you go to prison for 12 months while your victim lives in squallor as a vegetable or darkness now he's blind.

Kenny MacAskill and the SNP support the rights of violent criminals to punch and kick people, even a little bit of stamping is fine.
65

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:45:20
Crime around drugs makes up a massive amount of criminal justice time and money.

It is the illegal nature of the commodity that makes these plants so expensive and funding terrorism, prostitution, racketerring, loan sharking and most criminal empires. Most criminals are not totally dependend on drug money. Kill the drugs economy. Kill the drug profits. Kill the drug dealers power.

Existing policies have not just failed they have made the problem much worse. Prohibition should be replaced with midical intevention and regulation.

Junkies are going to get high regardless of the rules the question is shall we treat them in a medical facility or let them rob our grannies and buy a smack in the housing estates.

66

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:47:14
#65 oops. Should be "Most Criminals Are NOW totally dependent on drug money"
67

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:49:22
65

Existing policies are not working?

Existing police officers are not working more like, where are the extra 1,000 btw?
68

EK,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 11:26:14
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
More prisons.
Punish wrong-doers, it's quite simple.
I don't want to live in a community with dangerous criminals at large.
Who is in charge of us???? Paper-pushing pen weilding idiots who are well-off and live in their ivory towers in some posh neighbourhood. For a change think of the public.
69

Miss H,

02/07/2008 11:27:19
61 I briadly agree with you. Education is crucial - 8 out of 10 prisoners have the writing skills of an 11 year old. But you've also got to recognise that the lefties are right - it is about poverty and deprivation.

Research found that half the population in Scottish prisons came from home addresses in just 12% of local government wards. The most deprived wards. People will say oh poverty is not an excuse - agreed it's not an excuse. But it is fact.

If it is a fact that deprivation and crime are linked then deprivation has to be tackled as part of tackling crime. Then you need to look at other factors such as drink and drugs and their relationship with crime and deprivation - because they are all linked.
70

EK,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 11:28:40
We need MORE prisons.
(I see that my previous post , no 68 could be misread). I say no to the idiotic proposals of the government.
Yes to more prisons.
Apologies.
71

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 11:31:06
Very good article and analysis. Building more prisons isn't the solution - you only need to be able to count in order to see that. Beefing up community sentences so that they really do mean something is the way to go - and well done Henry McLeish for having the courage to come out on the side of reason. It is a pity we're looking at new quangos, but we really do have to do something different. It is pathetic of Labour and the Tories playing party politics with this issue. I haven't read the report, but it seems to be getting good reviews by experts, who whilst not necessarily agreeing with every detail, do believe that it has to be taken very seriously.
72

Soph,

02/07/2008 11:50:56
Well now this is another fine idea that's not gonna make an ounce of difference to the criminal, what on earth is supposed to deter them here?

"Sorry lad you gotta go and meet Mrs Bloggs and cut her grass"

More likely to lead to Mrs Bloggs being re-broken into and the replacement items being stolen IF she's managed to afford to replace anything at all that is.
73

Jim Baxter,

Alicante 02/07/2008 11:56:14
Having worked in the SPS for 28 years all I can say is this is crazy. Prisons are full simply because it is an easy life. Prisoners are better looked after than old folk,they have no money worries, no bills to pay etc. There are far to many DO GOODERS in this world. When the old Detention Center was on the go it worked not for all but for a great many. Why does a man / woman want to return to prison after a sentence. If behind bars is so bad they shouldnt want to. But they come back time and time again. Think of the victims not the prisoners.By the way Community Service is a complete waste of time as well, prisoners I have seen doing community work just lounge about and take the micky out of the chap incharge . What might cut numbers is jail people at weekends Friday till Monday morning and let them serve their time that way.
74

Miss H,

02/07/2008 12:09:32
Your fellow prison officers clearly don’t agree with you.

Who do you think is driving this policy?

Where you have a point is that there may be a quite a large number of prisoners who seek to get imprisoned. Quite possibly a lot of them should be in institutions or some kind of supervised accommodation. So-called ‘care in the community’ has a lot to answer for in that respect. Some people are not capable of living independently due to their mental health conditions. But is it a good idea to warehouse them in prisons? Is that a function of prisons or is it a misuse of prisons?