Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


The great Scottish prisons gamble

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 02 July 2008
DRUG-DEALERS, burglars and some violent offenders would be spared jail and instead given tougher community sentences under controversial proposals in a new report.
After a nine-month investigation of the country's penal system, the Scottish Prisons Commission yesterday urged ministers in effect to scrap jail sentences of less than six months, except for violent and sexual offenders who "raise significant concerns about serious harm", and some other cases.

Henry McLeish, the commission's chairman and a former first minister, outlined 23 recommendations that he said would reduce Scotland's record prison population by about one-third, and called on the government to seize a "once-in-a-generation" opportunity to cut crime and high reoffending rates.

But experts warned that, by calling for a major shift away from the use of prison and towards community sentences, Mr McLeish was asking the Scottish Government to take a massive gamble.

They said that, while greater use of enhanced community sentences may eventually cut reoffending, the reliance on non-custodial punishments could damage public safety if significant improvements were not put in place.

At the heart of the proposed changes is a radical shift away from the use of prison for so-called "low level" crimes and towards beefed-up community sentences, which would begin as soon as sentence was passed.

Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, welcomed the report and said its recommendations would be considered over the summer before proposals were announced.

But as the commission cautioned ministers against cherry-picking its proposed reforms, Mr MacAskill faces a dilemma over whether to accept the report's recommendation to legislate against short-term prison sentences.

Other key recommendations include scrapping home detention curfews – the controversial practice of releasing prisoners early with a tagging order – and giving sheriffs the option of imposing "conditional sentences", which would mean offenders only being sent to prison if they failed to meet certain conditions imposed by the courts.

Offenders on community sentences would also be forced to attend "progress courts" to ensure they do not escape punishment.

In a further shift away from imprisonment, the report says the Parole Board should be allowed to impose non-custodial penalties on serious, long-term criminals who reoffend after they are released from jail.

The commission is also urging greater use of supervised bail orders to reduce the number of remand prisoners and says special youth hearings should be set up to take offenders aged 16 and 17 out of the adult courts.

Setting out the recommendations in the commission's 82-page report, Mr McLeish said Scotland faced two possible futures.

One had fewer people in prison, with only those presenting a serious threat of harm behind bars, coupled with widely used, well-respected community sentences producing low re-conviction rates. The other, which he said Scotland was heading towards, had many more overcrowded prisons, low morale among prison staff and social workers, a continuing "cycle" of crime and "record levels" of public distrust in the system.

"We have to make a choice between these two futures," he said. "A negative future is not inevitable and a positive one is not unattainable. Both are possible. One requires us to do nothing at all; the other will require us to think differently about what we want punishment to do and to make some changes in how we go about achieving this."

After unveiling the report, Mr McLeish told The Scotsman: "I'm convinced that, in the future, we will not only have safer communities, but if the government follows these recommendations, we will rehabilitate more offenders and will also be looked upon across Europe and globally as a model of how we can tackle the worst excesses of crime."

He admitted the measures would require government investment "in the short term", but said the commission had not estimated the cost. However, it argues that vast amounts of money could be freed up in the longer run by reducing the prison population.

His criticism of the current penal system was echoed by David Strang, Chief Constable of Lothian and Borders, who sat on the commission.

He said the practice of sending large numbers of offenders to jail for less than six months was "not working".

But criminal justice experts warned that the proposed overhaul of the penal system could have disastrous results, unless community sentences were transformed.

Mike Nellis, professor of criminal and community justice at Strathclyde University in Glasgow, said: "This is a brave report.

The success of these measures depends on whether criminal justice social work departments can rise to the challenge."

Andrew McLellan, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, praised the report and told Mr McLeish at the launch: "I welcome almost all of this. A lot of it is just sensible. It's a moment that comes once in a generation."

But Bill Aitken, the Scottish Tories' justice spokesman, rejected much of the commission's work. "In the SNP's soft-touch Scotland, you have to be very unlucky to end up in jail. Where the report hits the mark is when it recommends the blindingly obvious," he said.

Offenders could be given another chance

UNDER the proposals outlined by Henry McLeish yesterday, many criminals will face a fundamentally different form of punishment to the one they currently receive.

Take the example of someone who commits, say, their fifth housebreaking.

After the first two, the sheriff imposes a fine. But that fails to deter him from reoffending, perhaps partly because the criminal has a drug problem.

So after the third and fourth break-ins, the offender receives 140 hours of community sentence and a probation order intended to address the causes of his offending.

But he fails to turn up at his work placement and goes on to commit his fifth offence.

That scenario, faced regularly by sheriffs, would probably result in him being sent to prison for a short period, perhaps four months.

The sentence would reflect social outrage over his continued offending, and the failure of other means to stop the cycle of crime.

But under the commission's plan, the criminals would probably be given another chance.

The four-month sentence the sheriff was minded to impose would have to be turned into a Community Supervision Sentence, which would require the offender to "pay back" for his crimes, by a combination of work in the community, a requirement that he attend a treatment centre for his drug problems, and meetings with his victims.

While offenders given community sentences are sometimes left alone for weeks before they start their work, this criminal would be taken straight from the dock to a team responsible for administering the punishment. The punishment would, in effect, start straight away.

Mr McLeish says he wants community sentences to be more visible, but says requiring offenders to wear special outfits to mark them out would be "degrading".

The commission's report indicates that prison could only be imposed if this tougher community sentence fails to stop him in his tracks.

But if Mr McLeish's brand of community sentences are ineffective, the result is likely to be more crime.

Judges hamstrung by report that lacks new ideas

Commentary: Ian Simpson


THE report of the Scottish Prisons Commission expresses noble aspirations, and constructive thought has gone into its preparation.

However, I have to question how the proposals to speed up the sentencing process will work in practice, and it is depressing to note that two new quangos have been conceived.

Both the proposed new National Sentencing Council and Community Justice Council will require premises, staff and money that would be better spent on making what we have better. If they come into being they will have overlapping functions, so there will be scope for turf wars.

I particularly dislike the erosion of judicial control of sentencing. There are to be guidelines. These will not come from the Appeal Court or from discussion with fellow judges, but from the new quango. Will it have enough people of real, practical experience on it? Sheriffs will also be hamstrung in imposing short sentences of less than six months (which will still mean only three months inside).

Before such a sentence can be imposed, regard must be had to a range of factors. It will, I suspect, be necessary to use some judicial ingenuity before jailing a bad second or third-time drink-driver or a disqualified driver who has similarly reoffended.

The remedy for short sentences is to be a new device called a "conditional sentence".

It is to be a non-implemented jail sentence ringed with conditions. The central buzz-word will be "payback". You can pay back by rehabilitating yourself, paying compensation, being tagged or doing unpaid work. If you do not comply, the jail sentence hanging over you will be imposed.

Almost all of this is already available more flexibly. We have probation orders, community service orders, restriction of liberty orders and compensation orders. If you do not comply you are brought back to court when custody may or may not be imposed, depending on all the circumstances. Apart from the vocabulary, what's really new?

The commission wants judges to discuss cases with social workers before deciding on "the best form of payback". This might save the social workers writing reports, but in a busy court this will waste much judicial time, and I wonder how long the social workers might have to hang around – probably longer than it takes to write a report. There will then be appearances at a "progress court" to check that all is well.

We need adequate resources for whatever procedures we have. As the report points out, we need secure places other than jail for those with mental-health problems.

The report also pays tribute to the success of drug treatment and testing orders. That makes my point: they are properly resourced. Probation and community service are not now adequately resourced. And hamstringing judges will not cure prison overcrowding.

• Ian Simpson is a former sheriff

COMMUNITY SUPERVISION

THE commission recommends that the government require courts, which would otherwise have imposed a sentence of six months imprisonment or less, to instead impose a community supervision sentence.

A sheriff would only be able to impose a short sentence if a limited set of circumstances applied.

These include if the case involved "violent and sexual offences that raise significant concerns about serious harm"; if the offence involved a breach of bail conditions; if the offender was already subject to a community sentence, and if the offender was subject to a release licence.

SENTENCING COUNCIL

THE setting up of a National Sentencing Council (NSC) Is recommended by the commission. This would develop clear guidelines for sentencing to applied across Scotland.

The commission says patterns of sentencing, including community sentences, vary greatly across the country. In order to command the support of the public the commission says sentencing and the management of sentencing must be more consistent and transparent as well as effective. The NSC would, the commission argues: "drive forward consistency and improve effectiveness."

TEENAGERS IN PRISON

THE report also addresses the detention of 16 and 17 year olds in adult prisons.

The commission argues young offenders may be negatively influenced by older inmates and suggests the Government explore options for placing the older teens in secure youth facilities, away from both older offenders and those under 16. It also recommends ministers re-examine the case for putting 16 and 17 year olds in front of Specialist Youth Hearings which would give a wider option for sentencing than presently available under the Children's Hearing System. This would place Scotland in line with international conventions.

JUSTICE COUNCIL

A NATIONAL Community Justice Council ( NCJC) would bring about improved services for ex-prisoners and help implement changes in a "diverse" criminal justice system, the commission claims.

It says such a quango should work alongside their suggested National Sentencing Council to enhance public understanding of, and confidence in, the credibility of both sentencing and the management of community sentences.

The NCJC should also work with the Scottish Prison Service and the Parole Board for Scotland to enhance the credibility of release and resettlement arrangements.

COMMUNITY SENTENCES

JUDGES should be provided with a wide range of options through which offenders can "pay back" to the community, the commission says.

There should be one single Community Supervision Sentence (CSS) with a wide range of possible conditions and measures, it recommends, to compensate or repair harms caused by crime. This might unpaid work or engaging in rehabilitative work.

The also Commission recommends the establishment of "progress courts" for swift and regular review of progress and compliance with community sentences – and that deal robustly with offenders who do not pay back.

HOME DETENTION

THE current Home Detention Curfew scheme – known as tagging – is used by prison governors to facilitate early release.

However, the commission claims conditional sentences – where the period of custody is suspended as long as the offender keeps to a strict set of requirements – are more appropriate and transparent.

The report is recommending that the current Home Detention Curfew scheme should now be terminated – subject to the full implementation of all its other recommendations on conditional sentencing.

HOW THE NUMBERS ADD UP ON CRIME





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 July 2008 9:26 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

,

02/07/2008 00:50:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Schot,

02/07/2008 01:02:19
Prisons just make prisoners worse, we should avoid sending anyone to prison at all costs for all our good.

The Scotsman should republish that last graph next to every prison story. Do we really think US citizens are eleven times more criminal by nature than Norwegains ?

Socts are twice as criminal by nature than Norwegians ?


This 'post-code lottery' of imprisonment is obviously more the fault of our states than of our citizens.
3

brian mcc,

the arctic 02/07/2008 01:39:17
The proposal may reduce prison size by 1/3
Just imagine what cell restrains the 2/3
A 2nd or 3rd chance with opportunity to work

Could return to the days of public humiliation
Some offenders are chronic, add a drug problem,
You have a nightmare history is beginning to record

It is not a problem unique to Scotland
When someone enters the wrong door on a housebreak
Who would miss him buried 6 feet under

I wouldn't even call the police
4

Teofilio Cubillas,

02/07/2008 02:50:43
#4 The major difference between Norway and Scotland is Norway's complete lack of the welfare dependant, slack-jawed, fag-smoking underclass we have in Scotland who lack any social and employment skills. To them, prison is an occupational hazard as supplementing the disability benefit by small-time drug-dealing and shoplifting is now a second or third-generation way of life.

The only way to break this cycle(apart from long-term investment in what passes for education these days)is to reduce dependance on welfare and get these wasters into some form of useful employment. We've had 30 years of liberal hand-wringing hogwash about how jail doesn't work. Maybe not, but the alternatives are even worse.
5

Schot,

02/07/2008 03:24:05
@8
The US has imprisoned more than five times as many of it's population than Scotland. By your logic we can blame that on american "welfare dependant, slack-jawed, fag-smoking underclass" compared to us upright Scots ?

Nonsense, the difference is a societal failure most likely rooted in political incompetence or chicanery.

Would you really be happy if our imprisonment rate soared to the US's ?

31% - crimes of dishonesty ! How many liars really need locking up ? That really has potential for US levels of incarcaration since there are plenty liars who go unprosecuted. It is an imbalance of power reminiscent of the Eastern Germany.

I think we urgently need to cut our prison population to Norwegian standards, and I think the sensible way to do that is to study how the Norwegians are so successful.
6

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 06:37:23
The SNP are correct. I would far rather citizens were punched in the face than inconvenience a violent thug by sending them to jail.

Maybe there so called victims will bruise or be slightly disfigured permanently, but that is nothing compared to the distaste of putting a thug in a cage.

Don't you know they get angrier when you punish them for violence?
7

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:38:56
#9. Most offenders are male and the majority of them are probably young males between the ages of 15 and 25. What is the one thing this segment of humanity has that other segments don't? The answer is tons of testerone mixed with physical strength. On how many occasions do strong men with lots of testosterone listen to reason? Are they in fact listening at all? Do they give a f#ck? In all probability, they will not see reason until they hit 35 and until then they will always do what they can get away with. This is why liberal solutions never work as they are completely out of kilter with biology. I think we need to have a male solution to a male problem. The only way young men are ever going to behave is if they are completely shagged out. My solution (which I have reached reluctantly and I am not ex-military) is to conscript them into a local regiment. A very hard corporal could then run them around all day. Education could be thrown in after the run when they are tired and they can sit still and concentrate. Many would actually enjoy it and they would get more self-worth as they became even fitter and stronger. Is this going to happen? Not whilst we have the Human Rights Act.
8

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:42:39
I should also add that any woman in authority in the penal system, who thinks young men should be reasoned with instead of disciplined, should first take a course of testosterone so she knows what she is up against.
9

Eckyboo,

02/07/2008 06:47:10
If these thugs are not being sent to Prison then they should work. However they should work on chain gangs as in America with Prisoner fully emblazened on a brightly coloured uniform for all to see. After work they should be sent to their homes and tagged so they cannot leave with proper supervision working for the Prison Service not some private custodial firm who dont give a damn whether the offender is at home or not.
10

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 06:47:34
Henry McLeish's proposals are commendably humane and economically sound.We must throw our wrongdoers' a firm lifeline while protecting the Scottish budget and spending more of it on the things that can help them from falling by the wayside in the first place. But community sentences must be far tougher and I'd devise a way to tighted the tags electronically if offenders put a foot wrong.Literally. So, I'm not a trendy Liberal. Far from it. But the size of Scotland's jail population is a national disgrace.Our Henry - bless him - has found a way we can escape the national shame. Let's get behind him and give his well reasoned proposals our wholehearted support.
11

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:47:39
#13. Eastern Front is a bit extreme but a daily 6 mile run shouldn't be a problem - as long as the corporal isn't going to be sued under the Human Rights Act for hurling abuse.
12

Royster,

02/07/2008 06:51:54
Actually Willie Whitelaw's 'short, sharp, shock' was quite popular with young male inmates. They used to enjoy the square-bashing. I think it was shot down by the lieral establishment but I would need to check my facts on that.
13

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/07/2008 06:58:08
Boot Camp. Never mind softy andy pandy jail sentences. And who lisens to a tory mp in SCOTLAND any more, the labour party is heading the same way, the sooner the better for those thieves and liars. SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE is our only way forward. The Glaswegians need to break out of their STUPID socialist world!!!!!!
14

Royster,

02/07/2008 07:18:12
#20. Yes but most young men don't want a criminal record - not a good career move. Those that don't care can get away with what they want and will not be influenced by reason. Judging from what I have read above it seems like we have a whole industry (social workers, parole officers) involved over what should be a pretty straight forward situation. Now it appears that a further chance is going to be given and another househoder - possibly with young kids - is going to have to suffer another break-in before a prison senetence is imposed.
15

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 07:20:09
Do we really want this scum on our streets on "community service"?
16

Scudder,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 07:26:38
This is a National bloody scandal,.,.
Build more prisons ,,, after all thanks to this Labour government we have a huge un-used ( unemployed ) work force doing nothing else ,,
Get real ,,,, Keep the scum OFF our streets !
17

Royster,

02/07/2008 07:28:16
#20. I hate to go down this route but are relative testosterone levels the same throughout different ethnic groups? I am not trying to advance any theories here but it would be interesting to know if there has been any serious medical research done in this field.
18

James1480,

USA 02/07/2008 07:30:05
What are the odds of the folks "taking the gamble" having their heads kicked in by these losers? It will probably be someone elses head. Don't you good people have a remote northern island you can dump these little animals on until their sentence is served? Give 'em a couple of fish hooks and some line and wish'em good luck until next year. Wish we could do it. But we've got to give them three hots and a cot, plus medical, plus love and understanding, plus education(a lot of our crooks come out with a college degree, no tutition for them!)which makes for some smart crooks, plus counciling.... It just goes on and on and on. And I have to get up every morning and go to work so that we can keep this thing rolling along.
19

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 07:32:13
What I love about the barmy SNP/Labour mentality is that to mark offenders would be "degrading". I mean wtf? Committing crime is degrading, crime is shameful, but to let a criminal associate shameful embarassment and degredation with their own criminal activities is bad? C'mon SNP/Labour get real.

Ok lad you punched someone in the face, but we don't want you to feel bad about it, there is no embarassment or shame to violence, it's just a form of self-expression.

SNP/Labour are ruining this country.
20

Media 1,

cape town 02/07/2008 07:40:49
Sometimes it is tough to see the wood for the trees, but if you look closely you can see the future based on the past.
Once upon a time it was normal to excecute people in public, but that was eventually scrapped and the excecution was taken indoors. Then excecution was scrapped altogether. There was a time when life was life, but that was replaced for life with parole, then that was changed to life meaning 12 years or life 12 years with parole. Now we are looking at allowing criminals to avoid jail alotgether. You see what happens when you move away from what is conceived as barbaric? You end up with a society in which the good are punished and the bad are rewarded.
BUT! These things go full circle, so in effect what is actually happening is that the government are permitting it to go full circle and allowing things to become so outrageous that a call for a return to the death penalty will eventually be embraced by the public at large.
Once the death penalty in reinstated, all sentencing becomes tougher and all jail time becomes harder as opposed to easier.
The first step in tackling crime must be to scrap the dole system and replace it with a community service system in which all members of the dole must work for their money. Unless you have a 40 hour per week work stamp you dont get your money. This means that dole workers will be out of their bed and off to work like the rest of the world, this will give them routine in their lives, it will also offer them some much needed self pride and before long they will be looking for better paid jobs.
Once that system is off the ground we will have less criminals on the street, which means we can deal harshly with the ones we have.
21

observer9,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 07:59:29
Using thousands of peoples free labour could reduce working families council tax.

Have them cut grass, mend & paint fences & lamposts, pick up rubbish and a zillion other things that don't need skilled labour and make sure they do it in their own neighbourhoods.

To me this seems very sensible and shouldn't require too many support groups to deliver it if controlled properly.
22

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 02/07/2008 08:06:10

What is McLeish doing chairing a Justice Commission? If there were any justice in Scotland this man would be serving 5 years for fraud and theft from the public purse. The man rented out his MSP office in Fife to another organisation and pocketed the cash for a number of years. He was dismissed from the post of First Minister and had to give up his role as an MSP - but he pocketed £100k a year for life as FM Pension.

Now he's back on the quango gravy train. Nice one 'Enry.
23

Jacqueline Hyde ,

02/07/2008 08:30:21
Thanks to the Human Rights Act and the baying of media hounds, sentencing in Scotland was on the brink of being no more than an judicial revenge for victims - as is already the situation in England.

Sentences must be both a punishment and a deterrent - and handed out solely on behalf of society in general. If the deterrent doesn't work (ie if the criminal re-offends or others aren't put off by the sentences for the crime) then the punishment is inadequate and must be increased until the deterrent becomes effective.

It may seem like a contradiction in terms but heavier sentencing will actually reduce the prison population.

I'm all in favour of Community Service in the right circumstances but offenders should be required to report for work at their nearest jail - where they can get a whiff of the real thing - and not some cosy office.
24

Teofilio Cubillas,

02/07/2008 08:31:22
#9 Schot

I wouldn't class someone who breaks into my house at three in the morning and steals my property as a mere 'liar'. I wouldn't class those so called 'travellers' who purport to 85-year olds to be from the gas board and then steal their life savings as mere 'liars' and I wouldn't class those Roma pickpockets who are targetting the elderly in Princes Street just now as mere 'liars'. All classed as crimes of dishonesty though. As I say, it's 30 years of your liberal hand-wringing hogwash that's brought us to this.
25

Fifi la Bonbon,

02/07/2008 08:59:07
i heard this week that so-called celebrities are lecturing us about yobs "rights" because they are anti-american read my lips: build more prisons lock em up and throw away the key the last to leave please turn out the light this post will probably be deleted! . its the ethnic minorities gays and lesbians complaining again. pregnant children are always complaining. mark my words lock our kids away to save them. what happened to great britain?!!! Can't you see that islamofacists are pandering to minorities because they want to destroy the world! when will Gordon close the borders now. It's that simple!!! global warming, climate change, no such thing, its just another TAX! .I read that single motehrs are inviting in paedophiles and AIDs. Time to act: get rid of them. This is very disturbing to me!?? mark my words i have been realising over the past few years that benefits cheats are telling us what to do ti is vital that we vote bnp s oon this country will be majority muslim with a moski n every village did you know that nu-labour is getting tax-payers money it s time we elect jeremy clarkson as prime minister next stop chaos
26

Royster,

02/07/2008 09:00:54
#32. Don't be such a snob. I'd be very happy with a liberal system - if it worked. It plainly doesn't and now teenagers are being stabbed to death regularly on the the streets because there is little in the way of deterrence.
27

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 09:05:17
i think people need to get behind the proposals.

i see the red tops took a reasoned line on this today. SNP emptying the jails etc etc. Never mind that the head of the commission was a former Labour first minister, with contributions from a world expert in criminal justice and prison systems, high ranking police officials etc.

seriously, what good does it do for anyone for people to go in and out of prison in a revolving door. prison should be a punishment not a place where you put the "naughty people" out of harming's way. if you cant see the baddies, they don't exist.

its time to start actually doing something to actively rehabilitate people. this isn't liberal handwringing or pinko politics. reoffending rates for community based sentences are 43%. thats nearly 20% lower than for people who get sent to prison.

we need to give it time to work but i think it can work. the number of people behind bars in scotland is totally ridiculous.
28

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 09:10:27
36 I think you'll find that the hang-em and flog-em types come from all kinds of political backgrounds.

unless of course, you are so rabidly anti-SNP that you believe only supporters of the LibDems, Labour and perhaps Tory party are reasoned philosophers with an accute understanding of human psychology.
29

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 09:44:37
1 - build more prisons. Doesn't matter about the cost, we NEED more prisons.
2 - impose longer sentences, and abolish automatic remission. Make them serve the sentence intended by the court.
3 - cut the costs of these new prisons by cutting out all the 'luxury' items like colour tvs, playstations etc - they're there to be punished.
4 - if we must consider 'community based' sentences, then make them meaningful. Make them wear distinctive clothing, and put them to hard work, on the roads, in gardens, in the fields, anything which might make them think twice about re-offending.
5 - abolish kenny Macaskill. Waste of space.
6 - anything else which hurts them where it hurts most.
7 - abolish Kenny Macaskill. Balloon.
30

Guga II,

Rockall 02/07/2008 09:52:14
#37. Good one, but #36 can't help himself. He's not Scottish, like a number of the posters on this thread, and continually rants against the SNP.
31

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 09:52:18
I do enjoy the Labour/SNP combination.

Punching someone in the face repeadetdly is no longer an actual crime worthy of a jail sentence.

The solution is to get all those people who punch people's faces in back into the communities as soon as possible. There is nothing more reassuring to someone who has had their face punched in to be eye-balled by the offenders as they sweep the streets with the menacing threat of a revenge beating.

Naturally of they accidently kill you they will get 5 years for manslaughter or in the case of the brothers who recently left their victim blind in one eye they will get 2 years.

The SNP/Labour are a f**king menace to society.

As for you bleeting scum-bags talking about how you and Kenny MacAskill can't see it being to anyone's benefit to jail people, well ask someone who's been punched in the face or kicked in the ribs. Seeing someone go to Jail gives you the reassurance that if it happens again they will be put in a cage again.
32

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 09:52:30
IF community service is imposed it needs to be Structerd of use to the community, High profile (vest clearly showing its an offender at work) and above all HARD WORK.

If they are sent to prison yet again it has to be of benifit both to the community and the prisoner in particular addressing drug problems there is no point sending a addict to jail without dealing with there addiction (and i dont mean dishing out methadone) but yet again it has to be hard work.

A prison officer once told me of a character who every christmas would vandalise shop fronts in princes street in order to have a bed and a hot meal for christmas day there must be a better way in dealing with such people.

But for drug dealers, drink drivers, and violent crimes hard harsh prison sentances need to be imposed.

sending a ned to polton for a months detention does nothing bar improve their street cred amongst there peers
33

Guga II,

Rockall 02/07/2008 09:55:46
#38. Totally agree about abolishing that waste of space Kenny MacAskill. He's the one that doesn't want to gaol anyone under the age of eighteen, even if they are violent neds and thugs. Plus, of course, he's the one that's pushing for changes to legislation on alcohol to punish the majority for the wrongdoings of a minority; rather than just enforcing existing legislation.
34

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:01:01
41 Thistle the liberal donkey

What a well rounded post, I particularly enjoyed reading the detailed consideration you gave to the victim of crimes need and wants.
35

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:01:02
40 - diddums.

One of my pet hates are those reactionary types who think that building prisons is the answer to everything. if it was, crime would be zero right now because we have more people behind bars than ever before.

Another one of my pet hates is people who have a view on crime and criminality who cannot understand or comprehend a slightly more cerebral approach than "lock em up and throw away the key" and defend their stance by moaning about how they/someone else they know - have been a victim of crime, as if anyone else who disagrees with you hasn't been.
36

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:04:32
It's a very interesting one this.

We see from comments such as 38 the determination of many people to ignore the reality that in most cases prison does not work in favour of building more and more of them to lock more and more people up for longer periods of time.

Apart from the fact that this will mean cuts in other services to pay for it the implications have not been properly thought through. I remember reading some incredible statistic that in certain council wards one in three young men have been charged with an offence. What happens if you lock all of them away? I suppose you could see it as a kind of selective breeding programme for schemies.

The sad thing is that there will be a lot of people who would support a 'final solution' type of approach to intergenerational poverty and crime.

However the fact that this is an independent review chaired by an ex Labour First Minister will hopefully de-politicise the subject somewhat and allow some real progress to be made.
37

Daisychain,

Ireland 02/07/2008 10:07:51
Maybe we should keep the dealers and violent offenders out of prison so there's space for all the single mums and pensioners who can't pat their council tax bills...?
38

Daisychain,

Ireland 02/07/2008 10:09:07
Oops , typo.. that should read "can't PAY their bills" !
39

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:09:19
44

You keep hatred as a pet? Wierdo.

If someone punches someone in the face or kicks someone in the ribs or is found to be carrying a lethal weapon like a knife they should be put in a cage for the protection of society.

If someone steals some fashion from a shop then they should not be jailed.

I would like to say this already happens and so MacAskill should leave it be, but all that lazy sh*te is doing is decriminalising punching someone's face in or carrying so that he doesn't have to answer to the electorate about why thugs are on the loose.

Kenny "the balloon" MacAskill is worse than Gordon at statistical Stalinism, the numbers look bad on crime guv, hmmm, well let's decriminalise a few things that way next month there will less recorded crime.

I might punch MacAskill in the face if I'm ever passing through Musselburgh, it would be worth leaning on a shovel for a day.
40

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 10:12:58
Marthalions i am far from a liberal beleive me but haveing spent a day in polment and haveing to deal with neds on a regular basis sending them for a months holiday benifits no one.

how is sending someone to sit in a cell listening to the radio for a month or two going to stop them reoffending.
41

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:16:57
49 Thistledhu the liberal donkey

Hard to re-offend when you're in a cage.
42

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:19:34
48 No it doesn't already happen.

Why don't you read the report before commenting?

You clearly have not read it. But as is often the case on these boards that won't stop you commenting!

43

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:20:43
50 - it is hard to reoffend while you are in a cage. until of course, they get out then they can reoffend and the whole sorry circus continues.

still, as long as the criminals are out of sight for a couple of months, that'll keep people happy, eh?

never mind that when they come out the chances are that they will reoffend.

you also seem to have a bizarre fascination with faces and ribs. was that where you took your beating?

again, just because you have been a victim of crime and you think locking people up is the answer, it doesn't mean that every victim of crime agrees with you.
44

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:21:55
Decent person...

Don't pay council tax - jail

Don't pay tv licence - jail

Don't pay income tax - jail

Speeding - Automatic financial penalty

Accidently get paid to much tax credit - have to pay it back

Scumbag does...

Punch someone in the face - nothing

Kick someone in the ribs - nothing

Shoplift - nothing

Fraudulently claim benefits - nothing


So, all that society is demanding is that common criminals be treated the same way as decent people. Isn't that equality? Why do we need to pander to them?
45

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 10:24:48
yep cant offend while twiddleing your thumbs at the tax payers expense but once your out with your tax payer provided bevvy mony in your back pocket they can and certainly do.

Visit polmont if you can get the chance its an eye opener
46

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:29:01
yes, lets just put all them "scumbags" in jail because clearly, it's working. it's working so well, that we're having to put more people in jail than ever before.

some issues are too complicated for the simple answers that people want.
47

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State.....Coatbridge 02/07/2008 10:29:25
"Keep the scum off our streets" one post said...just exactly how do we differentiate with some who run about in 4 by 4's; known by the Police and local community but are impervious to any kind of investigation by dint of who they know in high places.....and their victims who use the drugs they sell ?? Who are the "real" criminals or scum here...those who are hooked or those who perpetuate the criminal culture....and just as much.......those who let them away with it to keep statistics in line with the political requirements ??
48

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:30:16
54

Exactly why won't people reoffend after a week of leaning on a broom or shovel?

Seems a little unscientific to me.

Did you see that parole officers were accepting excuses for missed meetings such as "I slept in". Your new boondoggle project will be just the same, there is no way it will have enough manpower to get the lazy sh*tes out of bed on time, and no way to force them to actually do any hard work.

What I love about it, is that you will force them to do that with the threat of jail. LOL.

So your argument is essentially the same as everyont elses, threat of jail effects behaviour, but rather than stop violent crime you'd prefer to use jail threats to enforce the leaning onto a shovel for a week before going back out to punch someone in the face again.
49

Miss H,

02/07/2008 10:30:32
One of the many interesting things the report highlights is that there is strong evidence that political factors have more influence on high
imprisonment rates in countries than crime does.Imprisonment rates are higher in countries with
two-party political systems where the parties try
to out-bid one another in terms of tough penal
policies - not because they work but because that is what the public (often driven by the media) want. Whereas in multi-party democracies those conditions don't exist to the same extent.

It is also the case that countries which spend the most on prisons spend the least on general social welfare. That is the answer to the point made at 8 which actually couldn't be more wrong. Countries like Norway spend far more on childcare, early intervention and education than we do. Of course they have all of their own money to spend which is another difference between us. The link between poor education and imprisonment is very clear.
50

Gunn,

UK 02/07/2008 10:31:39
Build more prisons? If we can't run the current ones properly so that they actually work, where is the point of building new ones?

And besides, there are a great many people in prison who are quite harmless. For example, as a general rule, the majority of murderers killed someone from their immediate family and/or they were drunk when the crime was committed. It is highly unlikely that someone who killed a family member will pose much of a risk to Society. Similarly, crimes committed while under the influence of booze are not so likely to be repeated if the offender can be kept away from alcohol. So, what possible benefit is there to Society if mostly harmless people are kept in prisons that might otherwise be used to house more dangerous people?

And where are the educational and psychological training programmes which might be used to reduce re-offending? There seems no point in putting someone in prison so s/he may emerge from there even trained by their fellow inmates to be even better criminals, all for want of job and social skills training, which ought to be used to keep them busy from dawn until dusk, so there would be little or no time for unhealthy fraternisation with other inmates.

So, I'd suggest free on license (with all appropriate conditions) all those who pose no risk to Society), use the space that gives, and the resources this free up, to re-educate, even indoctrinate, the career criminals and dangerous ones amongst them.
51

Neale,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 10:31:42
You might as well issue them with a Burglary License, which will only be temporarily revoked once they reach their allocation.

Worse is that what we are talking about here is prosecutions, not actual crime, for every time they are caught committing a crime how many other times have they got off with it? Statistics show that prosecutions rates are already low. The example of burglars getting 4 or 5 chances of being caught and successfully prosecuted (not of actually committing the crime) strikes me with fear and alarm. Have any of these law makers ever been burgled, its enough to make you want to move house as all you worked for can be ruined by a callous burglar.

How many chances do criminal need? I think that an increased likelihood of being caught, prosecuted and punished accordingly is the best deterrent.
52

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:33:36
Lets be honest about the first problem. It is us men that need to be sorted and mainly through a specific age range.

Recipe For Success.

1. At 16-18 all men not in education or full time employment should be put into military style service but not an actual combat role. More of an regional defence force. Building pride and purpose not breaking them down. Teaching them skills, keeping them active and sober(ish) and off the streets. Like a technical/military college. Also use them to improve area doing much of the council maintainence works.

2. Work out what society requires of sentencing. 14 years for frauding the Taxman yet 8 years for stabbing someone in the chest? Total sentencing review.

Establish what is and what is not a serious offence that requires jail time based on modern idea's of justice.

3. Police on the streets in numbers initially and let them give the little b'stards a slap from time to time. It really works, always has done.

4. Leave EU court of human rights. Lefty liberal dafties that stop us exporting maniacs and terrorists.

5. Treat junkies the way we treat alcoholics medically not custodially. jailing them then kicking them out on the streets does not help.

53

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:38:27
Looking at the table of statistics it is clear to see the USA has the most private industry and pressure groups involved in keeping prison population as high as possible.

Life in prison for 3rd offences. I saw an article where a man got life for stealing a toilet seat in LA because it was third offence. The cost to society was about $1million. Good business not much sense.
54

artemisclyde,

02/07/2008 10:38:48
57 - or kick them in the ribs, perhaps?

55

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:43:49
63

Yes that's right kicking and punching people isn't actually a crime until you blind them or cause them permanent brain damage.

Then you just turn up in court, say you merely meant to kick them in the head or punch them on the face, blame their injuries on "the fall", Judge accepts that and they you go to prison for 12 months while your victim lives in squallor as a vegetable or darkness now he's blind.

Kenny MacAskill and the SNP support the rights of violent criminals to punch and kick people, even a little bit of stamping is fine.
56

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:45:20
Crime around drugs makes up a massive amount of criminal justice time and money.

It is the illegal nature of the commodity that makes these plants so expensive and funding terrorism, prostitution, racketerring, loan sharking and most criminal empires. Most criminals are not totally dependend on drug money. Kill the drugs economy. Kill the drug profits. Kill the drug dealers power.

Existing policies have not just failed they have made the problem much worse. Prohibition should be replaced with midical intevention and regulation.

Junkies are going to get high regardless of the rules the question is shall we treat them in a medical facility or let them rob our grannies and buy a smack in the housing estates.

57

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 02/07/2008 10:47:14
#65 oops. Should be "Most Criminals Are NOW totally dependent on drug money"
58

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 10:49:22
65

Existing policies are not working?

Existing police officers are not working more like, where are the extra 1,000 btw?
59

EK,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 11:26:14
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
More prisons.
Punish wrong-doers, it's quite simple.
I don't want to live in a community with dangerous criminals at large.
Who is in charge of us???? Paper-pushing pen weilding idiots who are well-off and live in their ivory towers in some posh neighbourhood. For a change think of the public.
60

Miss H,

02/07/2008 11:27:19
61 I briadly agree with you. Education is crucial - 8 out of 10 prisoners have the writing skills of an 11 year old. But you've also got to recognise that the lefties are right - it is about poverty and deprivation.

Research found that half the population in Scottish prisons came from home addresses in just 12% of local government wards. The most deprived wards. People will say oh poverty is not an excuse - agreed it's not an excuse. But it is fact.

If it is a fact that deprivation and crime are linked then deprivation has to be tackled as part of tackling crime. Then you need to look at other factors such as drink and drugs and their relationship with crime and deprivation - because they are all linked.
61

EK,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 11:28:40
We need MORE prisons.
(I see that my previous post , no 68 could be misread). I say no to the idiotic proposals of the government.
Yes to more prisons.
Apologies.
62

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 11:31:06
Very good article and analysis. Building more prisons isn't the solution - you only need to be able to count in order to see that. Beefing up community sentences so that they really do mean something is the way to go - and well done Henry McLeish for having the courage to come out on the side of reason. It is a pity we're looking at new quangos, but we really do have to do something different. It is pathetic of Labour and the Tories playing party politics with this issue. I haven't read the report, but it seems to be getting good reviews by experts, who whilst not necessarily agreeing with every detail, do believe that it has to be taken very seriously.
63

Soph,

02/07/2008 11:50:56
Well now this is another fine idea that's not gonna make an ounce of difference to the criminal, what on earth is supposed to deter them here?

"Sorry lad you gotta go and meet Mrs Bloggs and cut her grass"

More likely to lead to Mrs Bloggs being re-broken into and the replacement items being stolen IF she's managed to afford to replace anything at all that is.
64

Jim Baxter,

Alicante 02/07/2008 11:56:14
Having worked in the SPS for 28 years all I can say is this is crazy. Prisons are full simply because it is an easy life. Prisoners are better looked after than old folk,they have no money worries, no bills to pay etc. There are far to many DO GOODERS in this world. When the old Detention Center was on the go it worked not for all but for a great many. Why does a man / woman want to return to prison after a sentence. If behind bars is so bad they shouldnt want to. But they come back time and time again. Think of the victims not the prisoners.By the way Community Service is a complete waste of time as well, prisoners I have seen doing community work just lounge about and take the micky out of the chap incharge . What might cut numbers is jail people at weekends Friday till Monday morning and let them serve their time that way.
65

Miss H,

02/07/2008 12:09:32
Your fellow prison officers clearly don’t agree with you.

Who do you think is driving this policy?

Where you have a point is that there may be a quite a large number of prisoners who seek to get imprisoned. Quite possibly a lot of them should be in institutions or some kind of supervised accommodation. So-called ‘care in the community’ has a lot to answer for in that respect. Some people are not capable of living independently due to their mental health conditions. But is it a good idea to warehouse them in prisons? Is that a function of prisons or is it a misuse of prisons?
66

Arfur,

02/07/2008 12:28:52
Bring back national service. That will sort out some of these scum bags.

#26 & #40 - Marthalions - you sir are a idiot. The report was written by Labour. All SNP have done is take it and said they would read it.
67

Hmm?,

02/07/2008 12:31:23
>>Jim Baxter gave forth the following:

"Having worked in the SPS for 28 years all I can say is this is crazy. Prisons are full simply because it is an easy life. Prisoners are better looked after than old folk,they have no money worries, no bills to pay etc."

You work for SPS? Yeah that'll be right...

Funny in these sort of statements that no one mentions the fact that prisoners have their freedom taken away. Freedom to do anything they want to, when they want. That's the punishment point of prison.

What I would like to know is - What are other European Countries doing that we're not doing where they can have comparable (or less) of a crime rate than us but imprison fewer people?
68

Hmm?,

02/07/2008 12:32:56
>>Bring back national service. That will sort out some of these scum bags.

Good plan because (a) our crime rate was much lower when we had National Service; and (b) teaching them how to use weapons and kill people is a really good idea.

*Deactivates sarcasm mode*
69

G,

dundy 02/07/2008 12:36:18
I reckon the SNP govt will consider these proposal at their leisure and decide to do nothing - this is a no-win situation - make a bold decision and the first freed prisoner to re-offend destroys all the possible good work - the SNP will dodge this issue....like most of the others...
70

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 12:58:09
Marthalions yes you have a great idea lets build more prisons (at the expense of a hospital or two) lock them all up do zip with them and release them after serving half there sentence.

Then go through the whole process again a few months later.
71

Jay Kay,

02/07/2008 12:59:45
#27 media 1 well said mate, makes perfect sense to me.
72

Bigwull,

edinburgh 02/07/2008 12:59:55
Give them a choice either stick them in jail for life and throw away the key or make them serve in the army and send to the worst postings as per the french foreign legion.
73

Jim Baxter,

Alicante 02/07/2008 13:01:18
Re 76, What makes you think I did not work in the SPS? I could tell you my history Prisons I worked in,commendations I was awarded etc but for why? I know what goes on inside which I would say is more than you do. But you are allowed your opinion.By the way some European Countries do what I said and lock up offenders weekends only
74

Thistledhu,

02/07/2008 13:03:30
Bigwul if the legion become aware of your criminal past they discharge you. the days of false name etc have gone
75

rural wifie,

Elgin 02/07/2008 13:04:47
Lock them all up and don't let them out until they have achieved fixed literacy and numeracy goals. Sat abd achieved standard grades or highers so at least they have a national qualification after prison because most prisoners do not have proper educational qualifications, and the prospect of getting out would encourage many to work at their education while in prison
76

Solution001,

Planet Sense 02/07/2008 13:09:23
The answer to this crime business is easy - for each offence cut a finger off. Such a policy would soon cut the re-offending rate. Pretty hard to commit crime with no fingers.
77

Marthalions,

02/07/2008 13:16:37
79 Thislte the liberal donkey fantasist

I didn't say release people early, you did.

Early release is as barmy as not locking people up in the first place. Your daft SNP/Labour hybrid left wing nonsense will cost more than a prison place.

The work they do will be sh*te quality.

Total waste of time. Cut the benefits of the parents, criminals that'll focus the mind on priorities.

78

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 13:34:10
#74 - where do you get the idea that prison officers are driving this proposal? As Jim Baxter has said, prisoners are better looked after than most on the outside. Do you really think that they (the prison officers) are happy with that? Far too many offenders re-offend and are happy to do their time because it is made so easy for them. If a prison sentence was made to FEEL like a priosn sentence, then the message might get through. I know it might be far too simplistic an answer, but if they're locked up inside for longer terms, then they can't commit any further crimes for the duration!
79

Miss H,

02/07/2008 14:20:50
87 The problem with saying that a prison sentence should be made to feel like a prison sentence is that more people went to prison in 2006/07 to await a trial or sentence (23,181) than to be punished (20,403).

I would really urge you to read the report which gives an insight to how prisons are used. Half the people there are just being warehoused because there is nowhere else for them to go.
80

Miss H,

02/07/2008 14:26:18
84 I suggest it would be a better idea to ensure that they learn to read, write and add up when they are at school.
81

Schot,

02/07/2008 14:44:02
In among all this right-wing fertiliser there are certainly some good posts and the seeds of a few good ideas.

Roysters point about women govenors trying a small injection of testosterone is quite valid. I don't think we could be injecting all lads with oestrogen though.

Jim Baxters idea for weekend lock-ups would certainly cut prison numbers during the week. I don't know how that would work in practice though as the over population would still be there at the weekends. Perhaps by releasing older prisoners at weekends ?

Servicemen suggest some form of limited conscription, either just for prisoners or for all young men. I can see this can do some young men good but it was a soldier who first hospitalised me, former soldiers do end up in prison too,

A lot of people blame drink but the Norwegians and Finns drink like Scots. Decriminalising dope doesn't seem to be improving the Netherlands. The US approach of 'build more prisons' obviously doesn't work, we need to be aiming for lower levels of crime.

I think Miss H (58) is closest to identifying the way the Scandanavians have cut prison figures, although I'd reword it, Countries which spend the least on general social welfare then have to spend the most on prisons.

Women need treatment, support and supervision but they don't need prison. The 218 Time Out Centre should be rolled out in all our cities and Cornton Vale shut down tommorow.
82

canauscat,

02/07/2008 15:00:33
The enormous cost of building new prisons could be greatly reduced if the prisoners were to build it themselves, on some remote island way up north. The remainder could be covered by scrapping politicians' pensions.
83

Geomac 1,

Scotland 02/07/2008 15:30:00
Usual cockeyed view of the criminal justice system. Why do we hjave all these reviews, studies, commissions for the criminals and nothing for the victims.
Make prisona punishment rather than a home from home with all mod cons. After all it's the criminal who makes the choice to commit a crime (they have a choice, victims don't).
One suggestion - why don't we turn over all the early released murderers, paedophiles and rapists etc into the care of the woolly liberals and see how they like it?
84

Alan B,

02/07/2008 15:38:08
Part of the problem with the prison does not work argument is we have been shortening sentences for a long period and also have automatic early release. The more we have done so the more crime appears to have risen.

Yes we should try to avoid prison for minor offences. However for serious offences long sentences should apply. We need to change the crime culture that has taken root.

Blairs statement about being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, seems to have been implemented as soft on crime and do little about the causes of crime.


85

 Hugh,

Edinburgh 02/07/2008 15:45:16
The introduction of even less deterrent sentences will cause a further rise in offences, hence wiping out any savings made.

A quick flogging is an obvious option.
86

Alan B,

02/07/2008 15:51:43
The way i see it we should have categories of crime. Each category should get a range of sentence. This is sentence should be served and not released early ie minumum sentence. That would allow the public to see clearly what sentences people get. Politicians have muddied the water so much as they know they are out of step with the public. As such headline sentences bear little relation to time servied.

Firtly a life sentence should mean life. U would then have categories 25-30 yrs, 20-25yrs, 15-20yrs, 10-15yrs,5-10yrs.

Murder (and that includes mugging and beating them till they die) would get life. Gangland activity and hard drug selling would also get sentences in the high end of the scale.

Prisoners should also be liable financially. So it would not matter if it could be proved that a drug dealer got money from illegal means any wealth attached to that individial would be paid as a fine.

The other main thrust should be to deal with drug addiction as this is a major cause of crime. For this i would suggest a rehab camp. All addicts would be put into a camp and serve a period of time to show that they are clean (say 3yrs). These camps could almost be self running. Anyone that violates on release automatically is re-entered into such a camp. This would remove the whole demand.

We should also have a 3times and u are out type of thing. It could be flexible so not to be silly. This would remove from society the few that continually reoffend and cause most of the problems.
87

canauscat,

02/07/2008 16:10:06
There is also the consideration that those who work in the so-called justice system have a financial stake in ensuring a steady supply of repeat customers. Effective solutions mean a loss of business.
88

boudica,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 16:24:30
We should adopt the 3 strikes and your out option ..I am sure that would effect the serial criminal ..I notice that the aviliabty of drugs within the Prisons were not mentioned ..maybe if that was stopped and all the extras were stopped that would go some way to stop all the re-offending .... and if all this goes through then the Victims should be able to Sue the Government under the Human Rights Act for not ensuring the safety of the Public or its Property due to this looney lefist mince ...and will we get a Rebate from the Council Tax or LIT or Income Tax for all this ??
89

boudica,

glasgow 02/07/2008 16:36:11
Miss H ..why is it that everyone in Prison is deemed illiterate ..that is far from the truth ..and as for Prison they have tried the softly , softly approach and given them all the extra`s it did work either ..and this isnt going to work what it will do it their will be a rise in Victims who once again are the ones to suffer why because the thugs will have the upper hand ..House Insurance ect will shoot up penalising them once again as will personal insurance ...I am all for teaching them a trade ..cut out the extra`s get them working or learning give them something to aim for ..and stop all the pandering to them ..get the drug suppy into jails stopped by both the Prison Officers and Visitors by making visits more secure then they can route that out and also mobile phones stopped ...we are sick to death of all this will work we are to hard on them mince that comes out ..it is their up bringing blah , blah ..blah ..look at the people who have just as hard a time in their upbringing and dont commit crime ...so with this all that is going to happen is more Victims of Crime who dont have the rights that the Criminals have
90

boudica,

02/07/2008 16:37:30
*it didnt work either
91

I vote for the SNP,

02/07/2008 16:37:47
hunner
92

I vote for the SNP,

02/07/2008 16:39:33
OH MY GOD I GOT ONE HUNDRER = FACT

Someone pull down their pants and do a Glasgow steamer on my chest = YES!!

SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP = I am campaigning again, IT MUST BE ELECTION TIME!
93

boudica,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 16:44:32
This is another nail in the Coffin of the SNP ..it was lalaland policies like this monce that did for Labour ...so let them go on with it ...Scotland is already a Criminals paradise from all over the World and all parts of Society .. next step Anarchy....
94

,

02/07/2008 16:47:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
95

,

02/07/2008 16:50:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

The Bish,

Glasgow 02/07/2008 16:51:24
How can we trust politicians to sort out the mess that the prison system is in when they caused the mess in the first place?

Since the abolition of the death penalty in 1965 the crime of murder has gradually been reduced to the category of a misdemeanour, and so with the lack of deterrent the number of murders spirals out of control while all other crimes consequentially become insignificant, sentences are lowered and their numbers rocket exponentially.

Thousands of prison places are occupied by convicted murderers who would and should have been executed, while thousands of innocent victims have had their lives cut short as a consequence of Politicians and a Judiciary whose only concerns it seems are with the human rights of those who commit these horrendous crimes, while offering the law abiding citizen only platitudes and restrictions of their own personal liberties as a solution!

With some murderers serving as little as six years in prison there are literally thousands of convicted murderers walking the streets in the UK.

As for those involved in drug related crime, what chance is there of stamping this out, when those who control this vastly lucrative business will use violence and murder to achieve their ends at the drop of a hat and view the police and courts as hamstrung and impotent?

It's time to reintroduce the death penalty for murder, make life sentences mean life, and return to tougher sentences throughout the whole spectrum of criminality.
97

bluehead,

edinburgh 02/07/2008 17:03:22
more signs of insanity!the obvious thing to do is build bigger and better prisons will not have escaped the people's notice that this crazy idea is to save money.,and nothing else.
it is to be hoped that the first people who suffer any damage will be the people who promote this crazy idea for it will surely end in misery.
98

canauscat,

02/07/2008 17:42:28
I can't see why people would object to prisoners having work for their keep. Those guilty of minor offenses could pick up trash in those spiffy white and black striped jumpsuits (that the prisoners can make themselves), while those whose crimes are more serious offenses would be confined to, say, working in a recycling plant on prison grounds (that the prisoners could build themselves). Those who don't work, don't eat. The very worst, paedophiles, rapists, corrupt politicians and lawyers and their ilk, could be shipped off to Ellesmere Island to help feed the polar bears, who, through no fault of their own, are having rather a rough time lately.
99

Sir Minty Moonbeams, Casino Royale,

02/07/2008 17:51:20
I've got a better idea.

Make sentences tougher...longer jail sentences all round BUT decriminalise ALL drugs.

We are only in this position - prison overcrowding - because of our ludicrous insistence on keeping the possession and supply of drugs illegal.

Legalise drugs and cut shoplifting and street robbery by around 80% overnight.

Implement drunk and incapable laws more forcibly and tougher sentences for that : get stoned out your box but don't fall about the streets in other words.
100

Miss H,

02/07/2008 17:54:02
98 Boudica they are deemed to be illiterate because they can't read or write properly.

You could make an argument that this doesn't matter but you can't argue the fact.

As for saying we have tried the softly softly approach. There are more people in prison now in Scotland than ever before so the idea that we have adopted a softly softly approach to crime is rubbish. People get jailed more often now than ever before. Does it work? No it doesn't - because most of them reoffend. That is also a fact.

The argument could be made that although there are more people in prison than before, more of them are serving short sentences. This is true - and scrapping short sentences would therefore mean that people sent to prison would be doing serious time, not just a token sentence, and that prison could no longer be used to warehouse people who have nowhere else to go. So you clear out the flotsam and jetsam and are left with the serious criminals.

I would suggest that you also read the report and try and get your head round it before commenting.

101

Allan(handofgod137),

02/07/2008 17:55:50
#17 Royster, Willie Whitelaws "short sharp shock" certainly was very effective in the case of one young ned of my acquaintance, who was a regular in the sheriff court,(robbery, assault ect) until he was sent down for failure to pay fines and comply with community based sentences. Before he went down he thought he was a real hard man, and that he could take prison, but after a week inside, being run ragged by former marines and paras, he was begging his brother to get him out. After his release,he kept on the staight and narrow for over 4 years, whereas before it would have been 4 weeks.
102

Griffe,

02/07/2008 17:56:02
It seems like the lunatics are running the asylum. The authors of the report should either be committed to a mental hospital or deported.
103

Miss H,

02/07/2008 17:58:25
106 Why don't you put that to the test? If you want to build more prisons you need to find the money from somwehere. So you have to cut spending in other areas.

Free personal care? The central heating programme? Free bus travel for pensioners?

Let's take a vote. More prisons versus scrapping free personal care and reintroducing prescription charges.

That is the kind of choice you would have to make. So what do you choose?
104

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 02/07/2008 18:53:17
Miss H wrote:

"As for saying we have tried the softly softly approach. There are more people in prison now in Scotland than ever before so the idea that we have adopted a softly softly approach to crime is rubbish."

You are confusing two separate issues. More people in jail simply means more people are committing offenses.

To measure if sentencing is 'softly softly' you have to look at the length of sentencing and if it has changed through the years. Most sentencing has been reduced - thus supporting 'softly softly'. Indeed it could be argued that more people in jail is evidence of such 'softness' throughout society.
105

The Gorm,

St Catharines 02/07/2008 19:38:41
Create a new industry in a developing country!Send serious criminals to a detention centre in Mexico.Provide their government with fair funding for their upkeep (20000 pounds per year vice 40000 pounds as it is now costing).It would not only get them off the street but out of the country.The Mexicans have interesting ways to handle criminals.
106

canauscat,

02/07/2008 19:49:31
When one reads of yet another girl or child raped and murdered by a sexual predator who has been paroled early from a similar crime, one rightly questions the competence of review boards. There should, at the very least, be a "dangerous offender" category - these people are NEVER to be released, regardless of length of sentence.
If they must release prisoners, let it be by the potential threat, not by time served. A guy who writes bad checks for a living should be punished, but not if it means we have to unleash a monster.
107

Ron Thomson,

calonge 02/07/2008 20:18:59
Softly Softly Btitain, do the crime do the time.

Any crime that results in a Death,Then it should be Death Sentence, no appeals no rights, Court to the Grave.

We need to tighten up and stop all the soft stuff, when they are in prison, No Television, No Treats, Wear a boiler suit the American Style all visits behind glass panels no contact with visitors,

You could cut the costs of keeping them in prison by thousands.

108

canauscat,

02/07/2008 20:44:52
117
Well, there has to be the occasional exception. Say you find out some scumbag has been selling crack to your daughter and, quite by accident, you drop him off a bridge...
109

jett,

aden 02/07/2008 21:16:16
all you need to know is what goes on and the offenders will carry on with their criminal ways. the government always gives way to those responsible for the crimes because it is cheaper than helping victims who, as i found as a child among other children are less expensive to gag. if you go to the tun bar and what ever else you will see many offenders. i knew at least one who was having sex with kids in homes himself an adult at the time and also attacked me because i kissed one of his little (girlie) women, the social workers reckoned that was an assault of sorts and would i like to make a complaint "GOGS" HOW ARE THE KIDS TREATING YOU THESE DAYS?
110

'Smee',

Canada 02/07/2008 21:23:21
Violent crimes - 6 o' the best across back-side! immediately.

Sure for Community Service - orange overalls would do the trick - and if there is a problem with the psyche - sorry - don't do the crime! Short Sharp Hard to the Point punishment would soon empty the jails! Certainly no colour TV - cell phones 3 meals a day, a bed - and a bit of exercise - maybe an exam to see if the culprit is suitable for release!?
111

jett,

aden 02/07/2008 21:25:15
people who do drugs should not be allowed to do work with kids, vulnerable adults nor work for the law because the connections to the criminal they say they leave behind are never broken. i know people in all of the afore mentioned who are bentt. the law does dirty deals with crooks to the detriment of me and others raised in care and placed in care due to non criminal reasons except our street value. and all of that is a fact. i noticed one of paten's queerss i think he might have been a roller.
112

jett,

aden 02/07/2008 21:27:41
has anyone seen a roller prowl as a pensioner?
113

jett,

aden 02/07/2008 21:28:51
or was that a social worker following me? women are the worst in these crimes stone cold blooded.
114

jett,

aden 02/07/2008 21:32:31
i have noticed that this forum does attract people who do drugs unlike mine on the NHS and prescribed. so that explains the exodus.
115

fritigern,

Inverness 02/07/2008 22:19:57
Billet these scum on our liberal elite, who are so fond of them.
116

Peter Parkinson,

St. Leonards on Sea 02/07/2008 23:17:14
Drug dealing goes on whenever they have some to sell, day or night, if you let them out then you have to bring in the death penalty for drug dealing because they will not stop, and carry it out they will soon stop.
Most thieves steel to buy drugs and pay dealers, girls get put on the game to pay for drugs.
Get the Bobbies on the beat every hour past dealers houses, make it hard for them operate. Its just greed with dealers no concern with peoples health
Make people whom use illegal drugs cost the NHS money, make them pay or no treatment.
Make dealer take a job or no state benefits.
117

Claymore,

02/07/2008 23:27:03
The student loan betrayal, cosying up to Islamists and going soft on crime.

Three nails in the SNP coffin. Can't say I'm disappointed.
118

kenny1874,

03/07/2008 00:05:48
84 has it right.The type of people we are talking about lack motivation and will not do the education /skills training in the numbers that are required unless forced through the prospect of a longer sentence. That's why they don't turn up for community sentences and instead breach them ending up in jail.They tend not to volunteer for anything . Reactive by nature.
Most offenders are male , 18 - 25 and come from the schemes. For those sentenced to a short period - say a year or two - military discipline or robust community service is the only answer . They will tell you this themselves and are crying out for it especially the 16 - 18 year olds. Structure and discipline is what they are pinning for but instead are given a diet of complex , euphamistic jargon with all kinds of mixed messages.
For those sentenced to long periods and do remember we have stacks of prisoners doing serious time 15 - 25 years is not uncommon, for them do be effectively managed then they need to be treated humanely within a modern well managed prison system which whether you care to accept or not is fortunately what we have in Scotland.
Comparing Norway and Scotland, socially, is something that sadly has little for us to be pleased about. Hopefully an independant Scotland might one day look more like what exists there but meanwhile we have to realise that we have a much bigger jail population because we have in urban Scotland one of the most violent young male drink and drug dominated cultures in the world never mind Europe. This is the first government( the one in Edinburgh)that I have known that can see this and wants to put it right.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.