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Published Date: 06 July 2009
PUBLIC-SECTOR workers raised the threat of industrial action last night after Chancellor Alistair Darling warned they could be forced to share the pain of the recession with wage cuts.
The Chancellor put himself on a collision course with public-sector staff after saying that wage deals thrashed out in the weeks ahead had to reflect the tough economic reality.

Unions reacted with fury to suggestions of a pay cut to mirror the many freezes across the private sector.

Brian Strutton, national officer of the GMB union, said the government should stay out of negotiations or face strikes.

"Many public-sector bodies are in the middle of long-term deals and others are covered by pay review bodies," he said. "Any interference is bound to be disruptive and could lead to unnecessary calls for industrial action.

"In local government, we are trying to put together a deal for this year, and ministers should stay out of it. They should give a higher priority to capping the earnings of the multi-millionaire elite in the City, where the greed shoots of recovery are already visible."

The cuts could have a disproportionate impact on Scotland, where 623,300 people are employed in the public sector – about a quarter of all workers.

But Mr Darling said inflation had come "way down" and many in the private sector had seen wages frozen or cut.

"Public-sector pay obviously has got to reflect prevailing conditions and, in particular, inflation has come way down," Mr Darling said. "And, of course, we have got to be fair with regard to people who work in the private sector, many of whom have seen their pay conditions somewhere near freeze."

The Chancellor had been responding to the suggestion by Audit Commission chief Steve Bundred that public-sector workers could "tolerate" some pain through wage cuts to save £5 billion.

The government faces a shortfall of £50bn and will have to decide between cuts and tax rises to plug it.

Mr Bundred said: "At a time when inflation is likely to be between 2 per cent and 3 per cent, a pain-free way of cutting public spending would be to freeze public-sector pay, or at least impose severe pay restraint. This is especially true if real wages in the private sector are still falling."

The government is due to give its submission on public-service wages by the autumn.

Union leaders, however, warned that the economy could be further damaged by wage cuts in the middle of a recession.

TUC general secretary Brendan Barber said: "This call to freeze the pay of all public-sector staff – however low-paid and however vital their job – is not just unfair, but would make the recession even worse. Britain's businesses need customers ready to spend."

The Unison general secretary, Dave Prentis, who has already warned that the union is withdrawing funding from individual MPs in marginal Labour seats, said:

"Low-paid public-sector workers, who will be helping communities through the recession, shouldn't be expected to pay. At the same time, City bonuses are making a come-back, with figures that most workers can't dream of earning in a lifetime. That is wrong.

"Let's have some fairness injected into the system and crack down on tax evaders, and make the rich pay their fair share."

A spokesman for the Public and Commercial Services Union warned that an across-the-board wage freeze would hurt many low-paid staff.

Alex Flynn said half the workers in the civil service earn less than £20,000 a year, while a quarter are paid less £16,500.

"Many of them have already been on the receiving end of wage freezes and the most some can hope for is a 1 per cent rise."

He added that many were staff working in JobCentres, trying to help others who were casualties of the recession.

The Scottish Government also signalled a more cautious approach on hammering public servants, but admitted there had to be restraint in pay awards.

A spokesman for finance secretary John Swinney conceded that the Scottish Government had already said all pay settlements had to be affordable.

He added: "We don't believe cutting spending is right in the midst of a recession. Because of the UK Labour government's spending plans, Scotland is facing the most significant spending cuts in a generation, with almost £500 million in planned cuts from next year's budget.

"Instead of cutting spending, the UK government should be reducing unnecessary spending on projects like replacing Trident and ID cards."

However, there was no indication that the Scottish Government would ram through generous pay awards.

The Conservatives, who are likely to win the next general election, have also said they will be as hard as necessary on public-sector pay.

Shadow business secretary Ken Clarke said the Tories would be "as tough as we have to be" on spending cuts, but sounded a cautious note about the possibility of needing to raise taxes.

"Public-spending cuts are inevitable if we are going to have responsible government after the election, and we will decide which they will be when we get in, see how strong the recovery is then, and decide on what the best, least painful options are for introducing some sensible constraint at long last.

"We hope to avoid tax rises (and] the increases in National Insurance on employees and employers which he (Mr Brown] has left ticking away, coming into effect in 2011. But it depends on our success in making proper cuts in public spending."

Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable said an " across-the-board freeze" in public-sector pay did not make sense due to different contractual obligations, but he added that a stop should be put to bonuses.

"It's ridiculous that people at the top end of the civil service, in the current public finance environment, two-thirds of them are being paid bonuses over and above their salaries," he said.

Meanwhile, Mr Darling said that the recession had been worse than predicted. He also did not deny that he had been close to being replaced by Ed Balls as Chancellor.


The full article contains 1032 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 July 2009 11:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Forward not Back,

06/07/2009 00:07:32
Here we go. Memo to the public sector: Tax revenues have collapsed because the fat cats in the City were producing the revenue that paid your wages. Who do you think will pay them now? Brown has maxed the credit card out and foreigners won't lend any more money.

It's not that people don't appreciate the services you provide, it's the managers doing f**k all above you that need to go. Stop playing the game for them and call for them to go too!
2

danbob,

06/07/2009 00:23:45
What is really alarming here is the percentage of employees in Scotland dependent on the public sector. 25% is staggering.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 00:24:08

My God!, As if things were not 'gloomy' enough!
With this and the 'Swine-Flu', whatever will we do?



4

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 06/07/2009 00:33:28
40,000 of Fife councils best can only empty my wheelie bin once every 14 days. Do you think it would make any difference to my life if you went on strike for 6 months?
5

,

06/07/2009 00:46:40
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6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 00:52:15

In times of our economic crisis, one is lucky to be working atall.


7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 00:56:03

I remember being a 'Paper_Boy' hard graft for 'sweeties', in terms of Money, but one got on with it, and was soo pleased to get £2.50 per week.

:(

8

,

06/07/2009 01:00:57
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9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:01:07

I remember being the 'Apprentice', hard graft for very little money, sweeping floors and making the tea's , but one got on with it and was soo pleased to get £15.00 per week.
10

,

06/07/2009 01:06:03
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11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:10:35

I remember being Newly Married, Baby to feed, and Wife to Keep, Mortgage to Pay, and basic food and Bills to Pay!!
Being the 'Young-in' £50.00 was all I got for a hard weeks graft, but one got on with it, and was soo pleased to be a provider.



12

,

06/07/2009 01:12:40
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13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:19:00
Salmond seems to be happy to 'Tax' all we have as little luxuries, like treating your loved one to a wee glass of Wine, or a 'nîp' of Whisky for our elderly.
Not very Sensible, when you want to gain Votes!

14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:24:15

Brown will not put extra 'Tax' on Scottish sales of alcohol, he realises not doing so, he will gain our Scottish Votes, and if not Brown, Labour will Rule yet Again!
What a Basic conclusion of What-Is!

15

,

06/07/2009 01:25:43
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16

syntax,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:30:42
I see nothing wrong in freezing pay for workers - assuming of course that the Government will also freeze the cost of food, gas, electricity and other bills ? Of course they wont - so no deal. Also, companies, like BT or British Airways who suggest cutting wages or giving staff a long holiday - same thing applies - How do you pay for increased expenses with frozen or lower incomes - It simply does not work....... Try telling your supermarket or landlord that you don't have the money to pay - then see what happens !!!

It's time for anarchy /:o)
17

,

06/07/2009 01:32:25
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18

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/07/2009 01:44:14
#16 Syntax,

And how is the government going to freeze the price of those things?

Anyway, your attitude is exactly the same as those greedy council workers. Focus on the things which have gone up in the last year and ignore the ones which have gone down...mortgage payments, rent, fuel to name but a few.

Don't you follow the news? Inflation is at zero. People shouldn't automatically expect a pay rise under these circumtances.
19

,

06/07/2009 01:59:59
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20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:01:46

~18,
Julian,

Correct!, but for one factor!

Our 'Greedy-Banks', Have learnt NO-LESSONS!

At £40.00 a 'Whip' their Grotesque charges go-on!,
Even After High_Court_Hearings, and The_House_Of_Lords', They still think as all as 'Money-Trees', and Defy All!
Maybe the 'Strikers' need the Money to give to the Lions!


21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:03:56
(error spell correction)

They still think *us* all as 'Money-Trees', and Defy All!
22

,

06/07/2009 02:07:07
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23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:10:25

Not long to go now, until the 'Final-Judgment' Day for our Banks!
They will 'Of-Course' Be told to repay us all back for the overcharging of customers!
This will run into Billions of '£s', this will be Big-News'!


24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:15:43

Suzanne!, I had a "pea shooter", I shot my teacher in my class at school with barley, I then was given the belt, it was sore!
A few 'Barley-Shots' on unmentioned Politician's?


25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:19:05

"Barley" Is Very Scottish!

26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:20:20

My Teacher was Not Scottish!

27

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:22:24
Charles,

Forutnately I was one of the lucky ones who managed to get my charges back before the high court put a hold on them 2 years ago.

On saying that I've had a few since then as well.

But I totally agree with you. My bank charges £60 for having one unpaid direct debit. Complete joke.

The only thing which is more ridiculous is those banks owned by us which are still doing it. But what can we do? Maybe those of us with accounts at those banks should visit out local MP's to enquire why a company which they own in our names are charging such ridicuolous rates for next to no work.
28

,

06/07/2009 02:25:45
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29

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:37:53
#28,

Sounds like not a bad idea. But I'm a bit reluctant to change banks with all the hassle that involves.

Did they not chase you for the money and did you not just end up getting a really bad credit rating?
30

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:38:01
~27.
Julian,

None the matter you have claimed back some overcharging, you can go back 6years on every overcharging you have had, you need Bank Statement's!
If you can not provide Bank Statements for the last 6years, by Law your Bank have to provide them to you, this will cost you a very small charge, and takes about 14days.
You then have to give all your info to the Large Solicitor's Companies who are fighting our Banks for Justice, you can find them on the net in 'Google', just put something like "claim back bank overcharging" into Google, and you will get a the link you need.
You are then given a sum you can expect back, for the Grotesque overcharges on your account with your Bank, our stands at over £1000.00
It is well worth the effort to see Justice!





31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:44:13

Banks Are Mental!

They, 'say' Give you a £200.00 over-limit grace, after-which you get charged fortunes on bank charges, BUT! your Bank, Push you over the allowed Limit with their Charges, How is That?
Suzanne is Correct!, Dump-Them, and give them a penny no-more!

32

,

06/07/2009 02:46:56
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33

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/07/2009 02:47:13
Charles,

Thanks for that but I went through all that 2 years ago. I haven't bothered with anything over the last 2 years because I though the court case would be over by now. The banks however want to spin it out as long as possible and it may take another year.

Meanwhile those at LLoyds-HBOS, RBS, bradford and bingley, Northern Rock and many others have been bailed out by as and, are indeed now owned by us. Their directors are paid very well and they are continued to allow this legal charade to be spinned out for years. Where's the justice in that?
34

oder,

Scotland 06/07/2009 03:01:01
after Chancellor Alistair Darling warned they could be forced to share the pain of the recession with wage cuts.

and just how much are the little piggy`s at Westmidden with their snouts in the trough will they be giving up? all expenses should be stopped and all the parasites removed from Westminster, and the "dolt`s" that are left learn to do their job and pay for it just like everyone else! MPs need to start working for a living! no more "free" rides for these leaches
35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 03:05:42

~33
Julian,

I am very much in-touch with the Legal-Action with our Banks, It has Been a 'News_Black_out', one wonders the WHY?
But the Action is still taking place, it will affect us All!
I have 'front-line-news' on what is taking place, it is looking good!, like the 'expenses-scadal', the 'bank-scadal' will be brought to account very soon!
Our 'Banks' Did Not Fool our 'House_Of_Lords'!
This was a bad day for our Banks, in their thinking that their Grotesque Charges, were their 'Right', to give our money to the ones that who are given, the all time 'Grotesque Bonuses', to-which are beyond comprehension.




36

,

06/07/2009 03:06:07
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37

donald,

glasgow 06/07/2009 03:11:59
Wasn't it the Tame Unions that policed Lords Wilson and Callaghan's pay freezes?

Where were they when Labour sent troops into Ireland and Troops into Glasgow to scab on Ambulance, Firefighters and dustbin men to enforce a Labour Pay Freeze?

Perhaps they were to busy collecting expenses and a political levy for the honour of being squeezed by Labour.
38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 03:14:44


Salmond claimed "expenses" on his 'Bedding', What was that all about?

It made 'Headline News' and if you do not believe me I will give you the links.




39

,

06/07/2009 03:16:40
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40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 03:28:47
~39.
Suzanne!,

Yes! Some see their 'Bed' as Paradise!, and it is!

But! I wouldn't 'Dream-of' claiming on 'expenses' for the 'Bed-Linen', Salmond claimed on, 'Happy-Dreams'!
Charles goes to his Bed!, I do not need over £1000.00 of tax-payers money to do this!
'Nite-Nite', do Not Let the 'Bed-Bugs-Bite'.

41

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 03:39:01

Some may think that all the above comments are away from the subject matter.
This is not the case!, it has all to do with Monterrey Matters.


42

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 03:47:20
This is why I despise the Unions.

We're all sucking in stomachs' so's we can tighten us belts and those (so often) red-flag waving fools in, and running, the Unions stand up to demand more money!

There must be some among them that remember the reason Mrs Thatcher was elected in the first place . . .

Just to remind you:

A Corrupt and Incompetant Labour Government!

An Ineffectual and Uncharismatic Leader!

A Recession bought on, in part, by Labour Policy!

A greedy Unionised Work-force, too stupid and uncaring to look out for the rest of us!! I'm All Right Jack!(good film that)

And as they begin to Strike, and others follow their lead, who gets it in the neck and has to suffer from the cuts in services caused by stupid Unions?

US, always US! Well, thanks but NO, Far Corfe and take your stupid greed elsewhere.

Aren't the paralells quite frightening?

As well intentioned as Labourism/Communism is, it Doesn't Work!!
43

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 03:53:23

0400hrs

Can't sleep, on the Scotsman BBS an' eatin' Thorntons Dark Chocolate with Chilli.

What's wrong with this picture?

XXX
44

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 04:05:07
Gold Price is high and is oredicted to continue rising, with prices possible of $1200 an OUNCE by 2011 it has been predicted.

Where's OUR Gold, Mr Brown?
45

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 04:05:38
*predicted*
46

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 06/07/2009 04:58:16
There are two sides to this story. The unions want more money for their members, they ALWAYS want more for their members. However, times are tough and some belt tightening is required, they should show a good example and be reconciled to minimal increases until this depression works itself out in 2020, (ha-ha).
On the other hand, the trough snufflers at Wastemonster should also take pay cuts and trim their expenses severely. How often did we hear of them awarding themselves pay rises above the rate of inflation. If you want people to behave in a certain way, it behooves you to set a good example in the first place. Society was and is wired into a gimme, gimme, gimme mentality and the MPs and their expenses culture are just as guilty of perpetuating that situation as the fat cats in the city.
47

Master of conspiracies,

06/07/2009 05:18:13
I take that we can also expect the bonuses of talentless bankers and the expenses of our banana republic politicians to be frozen as well? I bet not, one thing you can be sure of is that the British parasite classes (yes, that's bankers and MPs - especially Labour's thieves) won't go without. It's the incompetence of bankers and politicians that have gotten us into such a mess so they should pay the price.
48

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 05:47:56
Chancellor Alistair Darling warned they could be forced to share the pain of the recession with wage cuts.

Share it with who exactly? certainly not our politicians certainly not our government and certainly not the 7 figure bounus fat cats who created the situation in the first place. They are being FORCED to share the pain with us. Welcome to the wonderful world of conservative values. Get used to it if you plan on remaining within this conservative union of nations.
49

Concerned Citizen,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 06:02:42
Here is a challenge to Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling.

Ask everyone in the country who is earning over £40,000 pa including bonus pay to take a pay cut of 25% now. Any anyone earning over £1,000,000 pa to take 50% now.

This would save billions in public service cost.
50

cabrach loon,

inverness 06/07/2009 06:29:54
Simple economics. If the money is not there something must be cut starting with overpaid top civil servants. Why, why why must the bloated civil service and needless quangos be protected when the private sector is crashing out and the tax base is shrinking - must the people borrow yet more to pay them - the time has come for clean outs, sad and hard to accept. The Govt is past its sell date and the civil service must be cut back to reality and made efficient, the army of target driven parasites must go leaving those who do the real work in charge. Cut back parliament for a start, it is accepted as far too big, then health service and education bureaucrats,clean out DVLA and make the local centres do the work but tied to a central database - DVLA as it is is arrogant, inefficient and unaccountable to noone least of all the taxpayers nobody there has a name other than a christian name in team x. Clean out all those sitting watching cameras - they are unproductive and instead spend the money on getting rid of blackspots etc.
Scotland I am told has 43% public sector parasites, far far too many to sustain, come on Alex start the clean out if Scotland is your priority.!
51

stringer 2,

Perth 06/07/2009 06:34:52
Un-official monopolies control prices as well as wages, so to my understanding strikes only harm the poorest communities because all the prices go up.
Meanwhile it does not seem in 200 years of development we have solved the problems of the cyclical effects of the "growth in economic and financial rigidities" and alongside of this stagnation the "mass depreciation of all forms of capital value" and property. So we all have to take the medicine of this capital depreciation; however, the bankers and the politicians all seem to think its about protecting the value of interest bearing capital. Surely its value cannot truely be protected any more than other property values. Meanwhile, I think you shall find that a deaper analysis of this current recession shall reveal that it is not financial problems we are experiencing but one of an economic character, and my worry is that this economic recession may have deaper historic ramifications.
52

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 06:58:57
50

I suppose you dont think its funny that the money which wasnt available for the NHS or for local services was available in large amounts to bail out the banks? Isnt anybody curious as to where the Government suddenly managed to find the billions to bail out the banks which wasnt around to fund anything else?
53

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 07:01:50
51

Strike action is the only weapon left to the people at the bottom of the economic food chain when they are being shafted yet again. The right to withdraw their labour when conditions are unacceptable is the only buffer they have from what amounts to paid slavery.
Never forget that.
54

madrab,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 07:26:24
The mai problem here is that too many are employed in the public sector. Why not use decimation too weed out some?
55

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 07:32:29
55

Weed out some? and then what? the dole? force the private sector to employ them at minimum wage? Get a brain.
56

Sam.B.O.,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 07:41:54
I have worked in the private sector in Scotland for the last 20 years for various sized companies including UK and American companies

During this time I have had to continuously move on as they have either sucked Scotland dry for their product and services or in a downturn close their Scottish based operations as an easy move

I am sure this is the experience of many and if you wish to climb the corporate ladder within these companies you have to move south or abroad.

I strongly believe that this is one of the reasons the public sector is so large in scotland - we have a managerial class who want to live and work in Scotland with career and promotional prospects and thus we have created this environment within the public sector

Ok you may argue that we should be more enterprising and create our own businesses but I leave that for another day

57

JayJay,

Right here 06/07/2009 07:44:06
Individuals like Brian Strutton of the GMB are quite right to defend their lowest paid members, but quite wrong to fail to accept a new economic reality. The economy is contracting and, as a consequence, all those non jobs and "nice-to-have" departments that have been spawned over the last decade will really need to be down sized.
The problem is, as in any other sector, the one's charged with making belt tightening decisions are typically drawn from the very layers of middle to senior management that require the most severe trimming...and these muppets in non jobs with grandiose titles are almost guaranteed to be the last to go.
Strutton should focus on the fat cats in the public sector, drawing huge salaries, pensions and, bizarrely bonuses. This continued focus on the soft, cuddly teachers, cleaners and social workers entirely misses the point.
58

BIG EYE,

Paisley 06/07/2009 07:48:44
I would suggest public sector workers might want to dose their union leaders with some reality pills.

Firstly private sector workers who are seeing their pensions disappear under this Labour government are already on the verge of rebellion when they see the public sector pensions unaffected and the private sector being forced to pay even more tax to pay for them.

Secondly in many other countries public sector workers are having their wages cut, in some cases by as much as 20% as government's seek to balance their books.

A strike by the public sector would be a disaster....for the public sector workforce, the government would be under enormous pressure....to sack rather than settle and workers would lose out big time.

My advice is keep your head down, get on with your work and hope your "leaders" don't lead you into a confrontation where only your side will suffer casualities!
59

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 07:51:54
54
The problem is there is no balance between the trade unions and management. All companies need a healthy relationship between management and the work floor without it your business suffers and individuals suffer. To get the best out of your work force you have to give them conditions in which they can work in without stress or pressure. God forbide that people should actually look forward to going to work instead of counting the days until Friday. The problem is and always has been with incompetant and uncaring management. People have to be trained into managing other people properly and that doesnt happen within the vast majority of businesses. You dont get the best out of people by pressuring them into working harder you do it by encouraging them and giving them positive feedback.
There may be shiftless useless workers but they are in the low minority of ordinary working folk of course these relatively very few useless individuals are always held up by the ignorant as a generalisation of the average working person in order to spew their right wing rhetorical guff as seen above.
60

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 07:55:20
57

Yep its the short term profit at all cost mentallity. some businesses want to make their money yesterday and they apply unnecessary pressure and stress to get it thats where all the problems start and end and its those at the dirty end who always pay the price.
61

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:04:48
59

Why dont we just put everybody into concentration camps and force them to work for three meals a day? ya moron!
62

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:08:23
58

Economic reality? the economic reality for most folk is they dont share in the profits when things are good and rosy so why should they have to suffer the most when things are bad? why dont you people get your heads out of your ars8es and look at the social reality? never mind the economic reality.
63

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:24:58
46

So why is it that its always the same belts that have to be tightened in order to allow others to continue to rake in obscene bonus payments irrespective of the circumstances?
64

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:26:16
64

They certainly have a brass neck referring to themselves as the "Labour" party right enough.
65

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:36:02
The answer lies somewhere between creating a reasonable cost of living relative to earnings. At present we have an excessive cost of living relative to potential average earnings. Strike action wouldnt be necessary or indeed supported if people were only allowed to live within a reasonable living cost something which cannot be acheived within a Conservative right wing environment.
66

BROONISDOOMED,

PITS OF HELL 06/07/2009 08:45:14
#7 i got 15/- shillings a week for 6 days morning and evening delivery
and 6/- for a sunday delivery
heavy sunday papers were a bloody pest ie times,observer etc with all the extra bits ,only on a sunday
67

BROONISDOOMED,

PITS OF HELL 06/07/2009 08:49:52
the strikers will feel the pinch as the strike goes on,but union officials will still get their salary
i remember scargill having to put in a months salary to the striking miners funds
it was alright for him he was still getting full pay whilst miners only got cracked skulls from the nazi police force that thatcher sent in,to break down a democratic strike,some went back early and were treated really bad by others,and some families are still split and shun those who crossed the picket line
meanwhile baroness thatcher sits with a really fat pension
68

The Ayrshire Bard,

06/07/2009 08:50:01
Too many postings have lost the thread of the argument here. Go back to #1 to find out what it's all about.
Forget the ramblings of Charles Linskail, he's obviosly forgotten to take his medication today.
I attend various meetings about the care of disabaled people and those with learning difficulties and am constantly amazed at the number of council employees running about with wee name badges on who contribute nothing to the proceedings but spend their days sending each other e.mails about when they should have the next meeting. Too many non productive employees in public services!
69

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 08:50:47
Companies everywhere are looking to hold wage increases at all levels, many are looking for pay cuts by employees, why should public sector not face uo to the reaility everyone else is?

Perhaps getting in line with private sector and scrapping final pension scheme would allow some release of funds for an increase?
70

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 06/07/2009 08:52:02
Gordon Brown is avoiding mentioning "cuts" and "labour" in the same breath, but in reality how can he continue to splurge money we haven't got forever on vastly inflated salaries and expenses for MPs, MEPs, peers, quangocrats, quangos, BBC and cooncils. Once these generous salaries, which we can't afford any more have been sliced, we then have to look at what else can be cut back as wholly unnecessary. The BBC is a good start - dump the licence fee. The EU referendum would help us dump some 40bn per annum, taking Hester's obscene package back to reasonable amounts - say £250,000 pa and much more modest bonuses if any. Regulation of the banking sector has to start in earnest and we should not be intimidated by this assertion that the best have to be retained with bloated salaries adn bonuses. The end result of that type of greed has been manifestly obvious.

And of course the bloated public sector which at about 25% in Scotland is unsustainable by those in private industry and services but this suits Labour as that's their client state. Chuck out all illegal immigrants and cease all further immigration until we know who should be here and who should not. No publicly funded benefits go to anyone who has not paid NI and tax for at least 5 years. This is going to be tough, but the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. Brown won't manage it, so he's toast.
71

ddmc,

06/07/2009 08:53:18
why do the public sector think they deserve automatic pay rises ?

lots of recent redundancies = less tax & NI income

millions of spongers milking the welfare state causing its slow collapse

private defined benefit scheme pensions are a distant memory for most

public sector pay is comparable if not greater in professional grades to the private sector along with guarenteed pensions

when i get made redundant I'll be looking to get a cushy number with a quango (you get good bonuses!) or the scottish govt/civil service or lastly the local council
72

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:56:19
73

Moron the public sector and the private sector require annual pay rises in order to keep up with the rising cost of living only they dont. The majority of the people in the UK actually earn less every year in real terms. Another brain dead ignoramous.
73

morris,

edinburgh 06/07/2009 08:57:48
10 .

It is nearly always the case that UNISON negotiates national settlements with national employers and the London Government,and has precious little to do with Salmond therefore.

Holyrood has imposed a freeze on council tax but that accounts for approx 20% (or a figure of that order)of council income only, with the lions share being taxes paid by Scotland to Westminster and refunded in part.
So even Scottish spending is governed by Westminster in effect.
That's one reason why the argument that we allocate spending but have no responsibility for raising taxes has some credibility. Of course if its attached to a repeating 500 million annual reduction it means the very opposite.WE have even less than before !
What Salmond does have control over is priorities of spending (upon devolved matters)but the amount available is strictly controlled by Westminster.
To accuse him of that which he cannot be guilty of tells us a lot about you, none of which makes the grade.
What would happen in Scotland would be that Scottish councils would have to rob Peter to pay Paul or the Holyrood parliament would have to do likewise,or what should happen is a possibility of course:
Westminster reaches an agreement with UNISON (whatever that might contain) and allocates an increase in Scotland's payments to cover this in line with the increase given to England and Wales etc

What we are getting is a 500 million reduction.
You can make an argument both for and against UNISON , but there is no way this is Salmonds fault.

If you are going to attack the SNP ,then do so, but aim at the wrong target and you are unlikely to score many points, and look increasingly foolish into the bargain.

74

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:58:14
69

Yep that should justify taking away the right for people to withdraw their labour when theyre being screwed.
75

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:59:49
70

Then make them productive. Give them something productive to do. Train them to be investigative journalists we obviously have a major shortage in this country.
76

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:00:47
71

Because Public sector workers dont share in private sector bonuses and benefits when things are good.
77

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:01:49
72

Funny how the money we never have showed up in time to bail out the banking sector just when it was needed.
78

JayJay,

Right here 06/07/2009 09:03:31
#63
I wish I knew what you were on, but nontheless, perhaps you'd like to explain to the rest of us how you continue to support a vast and still growing public sector when the private sector has suffered a huge contraction and the UK economy is pretty much in the IMF waiting room? Take your time.
And incidentally, I fully appreciate the social reality which is why I have no difficulty with lower paid workers continuing to be supported. However, the reality is that middle management will never look at the thousands of clipboard wielding beaurocrats that surround them when asked to make cuts - cuts will always come from the front line, lowest paid. Harsh but true.
It must be great living in the same dream-world as Gordon Brown.
79

Peekay,

06/07/2009 09:10:18
Do you think there will be a pay freeze for the public workers in the nationalised banks?
80

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:14:19
80

The private sector is run for profit the public sector is supposed to be a national service industry and is supposed to be run for us as a nation so we should all support it in principle. Because it is badly managed by a corrupt political system doesnt mean that the idea of the public sector should be compromised in any way in fact it should be expanded. It could also be better managed by professionals and not by corrupt politicians.

You say you have no problems having lower paid workers supported? well doesnt that say it all? how about not having any low paid workers at all? how about allowing everybody a chance to have a reasonable standard of living and a reasonable earning potential relative to the cost of living?
What are you on? Brainwashing pills or just natural ignorance to reality?
81

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:16:19
81

It depends on who makes the decision and who profits by it.
82

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 09:21:42
I think this shows just how out of touch with reality, and frankly dangerous to the public good, that unions now are.

Nobody want's a pay freeze, but the public finances are so unbelievably bad that something needs to be done. At least with a pay freeze, they'll still have their jobs, something many workers in the private sector do not.

I think it will leave a very bitter taste in the mouth seeing a huge load of public sector workers demanding pay rises, whilst a large number of former private sector workers go to collect their unemployment cheques.
83

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 09:21:56
let's just have a pay freeze across the board, but there needs to be some action on Public sector pensions.
You know it I know it and the all the politicians know it.

When will they talk about it.
84

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:25:11
84

It looks like the Scotsman staff are out and about with their multi posters stirring up the thread again.
85

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:25:44
85

see 86.
86

george toot toot,

Europe 06/07/2009 09:27:16
Why don't the MPs - all of them (UK, Scottish and European)- show us how to do it and reduce their own salaries? After all they're at the root of the problem. Some (all?) might be advised to learn what economics really is.
87

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 06/07/2009 09:28:28
#79 Do you know for sure that banks have been bailed out. I know the government took shares in banks and quaranteed their dodgey debts, with what I don'tknow. It still makes no sense to me.

In your previous posts you have attacked the opinions of everyone else. Do you not accept that Councils and their employees have to make sacrifices like the rest of us?

The debt-ridden property pyramid has crashed to earth, the make believe days of plenty are over. Councils have to decide what and who are essential to the good of their benefactors, the public, and make savings.

I don't see wage cutting or freezing as the way to go, trimming off the fat from the top down should be the first step.
88

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 09:40:19
Having worked in both the Public Sector and the Private Sector in the last 5 years I have a perspective on this. My experience of senior management in the Publc sector was one of breathtaking aggorance and blase handling of taxpayers money to such an extent that the greatest relief was getting back to an environment where I was answerable to shareholders. There seems to be a culture amonst the apparatchiks in the public sector (and I don't mean the front line workers here) that they deserve the rewards of the private sector without the risks. TIf they want the rewards then make them accountable - too many of these individuals are incompetant - if you want to see where your taxes are wasted it is in this mismanagement of our funds. Look at the recent exposes concerning bar bills, flights etc for MSP's and that is just the politicians it is a lot worse int he qwangos and the PPP's. Increase management accountability - make them account and justify EVERY penny spent and you'll find the money there.
If I mess up at work I get fired - if they want to earn what I earn - let them share my risk.
89

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:51:05
89

The banks are not bankrupt ergo they have been bailed out or they were not in the trouble they were reported to be in. And it doesnt make sense to me either which is why I am asking where the money came from that wasnt available for anything else?
Council employees are not being given the option of making sacrifices for themselves they are being forced to make sacrifices because of the greed corruption and incompetance of a political system as are the rest of us.
The make believe days of plenty are not over for everybody and nor are the make believe for some.

I agree with your last point of course.
90

Campaign Lawer,

Elgin 06/07/2009 09:51:43
#2 danbob,06/07/2009 00:23:45
What is really alarming here is the percentage of employees in Scotland dependent on the public sector. 25% is staggering #

If you take into account all public sector employee's including teachers, doctors, nurses, civil servants & now the Banks it is now around 65%. The economy cannot sustain this any longer, the remaining 35% of the people cannot support the rest of Scotland, and simple arithmetic shows we are now BUST thanks to Labour.

The pay freeze & job cuts are the only way forward.

Labour have increased public sector workers by 30% over the past 10 years, an economy with any credibility needs PRODUCERS not PSW’s
91

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:55:26
90

I agree that the private sector watches its money better than the public sector because their profits and wages depends on it but on balance they take greater chances and gambles than the public sector does. Its equivilant to having a high flying fund relative to a plodding fund with the relative risks of ups and downs. You should have both in your portfolio with the majority of your funds in the plodder.
92

oder,

Scotland 06/07/2009 09:57:51
Sorry Suzanne

Yes! read from it what you like that doesnt make it right! as only the corrupt would seek to minimize the crime, I take it you are a fan of Machiavelli! no dont like the legions he has at Westminster
93

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 09:58:31
92

I am amazed that anybody could be stupid enough to believe percentages put out by the government. Its amazing how the percentage of public workers to private workers increased even after the privatisation programs of the last 20 years.
94

Phil C,

06/07/2009 10:01:36
How can the public sector be expected to show restraint in this Labour-induced recession? The wee lambs.

The myth that somehow the private sector get more benefits has been exploded. Along with the famed job security (even the useless can't get booted), there is the unexploded bomb of public service pensions, and the 'support' of one of the most damaging unions in existence.

As ever Labour have done SFA to correct this massive problem. They've made things much worse! They'll leave it for someone else, like the wrecked economy.

95

Sedov,

06/07/2009 10:07:07
# 90 Muppet. The vast majority of public service workers are not highly paid and many of them have to have their wages topped up by tax credits.

Its the old old story, when the economy is in crisis - this time caused by the incompetence and greed of highly paid bankers, it is the low paid workers, both in the public and private sector who are now paying for the crisis.

In the meantime, those who have got us into this mess continue to receive annual salaries and bonuses that low paid public service workers would not earn in their lifetime.

Its easy to scapegoat council workers etc - I would suggest that you concentrate your fire on those who have caused the crisis in the first place.

By the way, strikes will now be common place as workers will not put up with paying for the mistakes of the bosses - the Lindsey Oil Refinery workers have shown the way - the rest will follow.
96

Red Ken,

South East Asia 06/07/2009 10:11:20
Ah, its nice to see that the moaning minnies are alive and kicking and have the same old agenda - slash the numbers of public workers and the country will get back on its feet.

Public sector workers are also taxpayers. They spend money for goods and services just like you so if their salaries are cut or frozen they suffer cause they are not buying what they usually buy. The service providers and manufacturers also suffer cause their services and products are not being bought.

I am glad that I live in a South East Asian country because it means that I don't have to listen to the old left wing and right wing duffers trying to score points will ignoring the real issues of the day.
97

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 06/07/2009 10:13:10
I work in the public sector and will be delighted to go on strike . If bins are not collected etc I dont care as that is not my problem . We work long hours compared to the fat cat private sector who are in the pub most of their lunch break .
98

Lee John,

06/07/2009 10:28:51
So today it's "Lets attack the public sector."
99

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 10:29:41
#97,

I agree with you. I'm not having a pop at the front line or even the middle management but the culture of irresponsibility married to unrestrained and frankly poortly audited behaviour by many managers within the public sector that causes gross inefficiancies and wastage. I don't necessarily blame the individuals - this malaise is particularly present in the PPPS where the culture is private sector in terms of bullishness but the decisions are political and therefore have no fiscal accountability re profit/loss. These PPPs don't work as husbands of public money and should be dissolved and nationalised or privatised.

I used to work for Ken Livingston and I recall one incident when I was instructed to recruit a new department. I did a SWOT analyses of the project and recommended low key advertising and using Headhunters as being the most cost effective wasy of delivering. But because this new department was a flagship of one of the mayor's policies I was ordered to run a campaign in all the national press of 1 page full colour recruitment ads with unique artwork - the whole project cost over £200k just for the adverts. The irony was, of course that they weren't effective and we still then had to go and spend the money on the headhunters to do the job. Never mind the "I told you so" the point is the waste of public money in driving essentially a political point and the blurring of what is good use of public money with what should maybe come out of a re election fund. Gawd know's how you dissemble it but a starting point would be to have a culture of responsibility with public money as it has to be self policing. The whole thing sickened me. The campaign ended up costing £300k and was delayed by months. This was against the £30k I would have normally budgetted for this type of project - in the provate sector it could and would nee happen.
100

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 10:31:57
#97 Public sector workers typically earn more than private sector workers - fact. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

In addition, they get more generous pensions, and are far, far more immune to job losses in this recession.

Asking for a little pay restraint doesn't sound like too big a deal.

#99 maybe you'd like to give us some references to validate your long lunch statement. Oh, and your attitude simply stinks.
101

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 10:34:27
#99 you don't do yourself any favours with a comment like that - take a long look at yourself
102

Lee John,

06/07/2009 10:53:10
102

Wouldn't it be more correct to say "SOME Public sector workers earn more than private sector workers."

The converse is also true......

"SOME private sector workers earn more than public sector workers."

Maybe you are cherry-picking.
103

Neil R,

Falkirk 06/07/2009 10:54:41
51 Saltire:

You are right - withdraw most public sector labour and no-one notices except those who work in council offices. The waste and incompetence in these places is frankly astonishing. To many private-sector workers the public sector is irrelevant and a haven for people who couldn't work in the private sector. As said earlier on this board, the council only manages to empty the bins every 14 days! If you have the right to withdraw labour we have the right not to ask you to go back. So don't complain when that happens.
104

Lee John,

06/07/2009 10:56:04
102

Public sector jobs

Nursing, teaching, armed forces, binmen, ambulance service, police service, fire service, etc.

To what are you comparing them?
105

Lee John,

06/07/2009 10:58:13
105 Neil

"To many private-sector workers the public sector is irrelevant"

And again I give you nursing, teaching, armed forces, binmen, ambulance service, police service, fire service, etc.

Are they irrelevant? Your post is a knee-jerk reaction 'cos you can't get your bins emptied.

Is debating here always as poor as this?
106

Sedov,

06/07/2009 11:09:07
#101 Interesting, and a typical example of how public money is wasted because there is little or no accountability at that level and the same would go for the private sector - after all the banks, before the crisis were in the private sector and supposedely accountable to the shareholders.

Self financing, as you call it, should be within the remit of the people who both provide the service and pay council tax and the workers in the private sector who make the profits for the bosses.

Its not public v private - its the SYSTEM that breeds incompetence, greed, lack of planning and waste of resources, time and space - its called capitalism and it is in terminal decline.


107

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 11:12:09
105

Thank you for that comment we dont get nearly enough ignorant stupidity on here. Thank god for posters like you.
108

Tris,

06/07/2009 11:18:55
It would certainly be good to see our MPs and top civil servants/LGOs take a holiday without pay, or even a pay cut.

As it appears the people in Martin's constituency may be without an MP until September (3 months), it seems that for at least that time we could give 50% of MPs an unpaid holiday on the Basic Wage, then swap over and give the other 50% the same thing.

#1 Forward not back has got it right. The public sector has to see that the layers upon layers of wasteful and highly paid management need to go. They produce nothing. We could save a fortune if we got rid of them. And that would protect the jobs of the people who actually lift the bins, or stamp your library books, cut the grass in the park or whatever and make a difference to your life.

The idiots sitting in meetings, giving power-point presentations on "best practice" are the ones we could and should do without.
109

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 11:21:51
110

What would make a bigger difference to our lifestyles would be the renationalisation of the railway network British Telecomm the utility companies and dentists. I for one am sick and tired of spiraling costs to these services in order to keep the shareholders happy and the obscene profits rolling.
110

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 11:22:43
#104 follow the link for the official government statistics on public/private sector levels of pay. Compared over the whole

"The percentage difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£523 per week in April 2008) and the private sector (£460 per week) narrowed over the year to April 2008, following annual increases of 4.3 per cent and 4.6 per cent respectively."

So, if public sector workers are typically badly paid, then private sector workers are paid even worse.

A little pay restraint doesn't strike me as too much to ask for in these difficult times.
111

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 11:28:48
112

Look at this troll with the available meaningless stats to hand. There are public sector salaries and there are public sector salaries. Our politicians and our top civil servants top up their salaries with obscene tax free expense accounts so your figures are useless misleading and false what a surprise.

112

Tris,

06/07/2009 11:33:15
#111. I totally agree.

But we need a strong government when we do it. After all, this lot of losers have natio0nalised the banks but it's made no difference to the way they operate.

113

drunken proffet,

Tassy 06/07/2009 11:47:43
#9 Charles, you give away your age. Fifteen quid a week as a tea boy. An ordinary wage of fifty quid. You are just a youngster, so keep wearing the thongs and keeping the better half fit and happy. The Unison Union appears to have a lack of educated professionals in their management. About time they retired them off to wherever they go when they retire. One or two Trade Unions have joined the 21st Century, may the rest of them follow as fast as they can get the effort together. Plenty university graduates looking for a job. They will have to strike a balance between management, government, world trade and of course, how much money is floating around. I do not think that the old guys are up to it. Certainly I would not be.
114

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 06/07/2009 11:59:13
What a load of drivel. Get rid of things like Trident and there will be no need to cut anyone's wages.

If these people had not been working in local government, paying tax and NI, then they would have been on the dole costing the country even more money.

As others have commented most of the people who work in the public sector are Doctors, Nurses, Teachers etc and yet the whingers on here complaining about the public sector workers were probably the ones whinging the most about there being not enough Doctors, Nurses etc the last time the public sector was cut back to save money

We should be spending money on the things we need not garbage like Trident etc that we dont. We should get back to actually making things and not rely on getting people into debt and rewarding greed.
115

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 12:32:24

Anyone figure why "Sorry Suzanne" has been barred?
She will have to look for work now, on a minimum wage.

116

sheena,

Menstrie 06/07/2009 12:36:16
I know, from bitter experience, that the first sector to suffer cuts will be the Voluntary Sector (which is already struggling thanks to Lottery funds being diverted to the London Olympics). Unison, whilst happy to take subs from their members in the VS and very pleased to invite them to join in any Union organised protests, will close ranks to protect their Public Sector members, and stand by silent as funding for vital VS services is slashed or withdrawn entirely.
117

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 12:53:20
This is none of Alistair Darling's business. The unions have negotiated binding pay agreements over a number of years. If employers renege on them, they are quite entitled to take industrial action as the agreements will have been breached. But has anyone heard COSLA or it's English equivalant say they are not going to honour pay deals made ? Because I haven't.

He is just causing it, hoping that the usual bash the public sector mantra will distract attention from the fact that we are having to pay back the gazillions that he borrowed to bail out the banks, which is going to result in massive cuts all round. Wouldn't it be convenient to blame the workers and their Unions for the forthcoming misery ?

And we ain't seen nothing yet.
118

Proghead,

Embra 06/07/2009 13:10:15
I have worked in the private sector for 25 years, and I have to agree with an earlier post, that to get on in the corporate world, you have to relocate. This is why we have such a large percentage of public sector employees in Scotland - 25 %. This is just not sustainable when you consider the profligacy that taxpayers dollars are spent. Add to that the generous pensions, early retirements etc that they ALL enjoy. By that I mean the essential staff too, like your teachers, firefighters, police etc etc. Trimming the higher branches would save a fortune too, so those up there can see what their ' talent ' is worth in the real market place. I'm not even going to talk about the level of sickness in the public sector compared to the private. I know it's a tough world, but we all have to take our share of pain. Rant over....fun,fun.
119

Proghead,

Embra 06/07/2009 13:28:31
#122

I never said YOU were lazy, but I have a neighbour who is a teacher. She is at work probably 2 weeks in every term, and off sick the rest of the time. In the real world, i.e private sector, she would now be on incapacity benefit.

Also I deal with various levels within the NHS, and when trying to make appointments I usually get three answers - on annual leave, off sick or in a meeting. Where is the efficiecy there ?

Rant continues......
120

Proghead,

Embra 06/07/2009 13:30:46
....sorry....EFFICENCY
121

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 13:34:38
120 You really don't get it do you ? There are going to be massive job losses anyway. I suggest you read my post again.
122

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 13:44:04
120

Isnt it so easy to tell other people they have to sacrifice something for the state? how about you what are you ready to sacrifice?
123

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 13:49:02
121

Nothing but rhetoric. We have an economic crises caused by the private sector aided willingly by the Government and ignorant morons like you tell us its the public sector that has to pay the piper.
Typical Tory mentality keep squeezing the same sectors in order to pay for the greed of private enterprise.
How about squeezing the rich tax dodgers and their hidden offshore accounts first?
124

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 13:51:07
122

It doesnt matter how many public sector workers there are all of their wages combined over thousands of years couldnt match the money lost in the last 2 years by the private sector and the government.
125

Proghead,

Embra 06/07/2009 14:01:13
#127

I'm just telling you how I see it, doesn't make me an ignorant moron. Also I have always been a Labour voter. I agree the current crisis was caused by the greed and stupidity of certain parts of the private sector, but you are lumping together everyone that doesn't work in the public sector. That's just as bad as the opinion that all public employees are the same. No matter which way you look at it, the private sector, for good or bad, are the wealth creators that pay for the public sector. Similarly, the public sector are supposed to be there to SERVE everyone, not follow political agendas ao empire build. There is fault on every side her, so I'm afraid every side needs to suffer........
126

JayJay,

Right here 06/07/2009 14:17:17
Saltire
I picture you as some sort of latter day Wolfie Smith, busily denouncing "the man" and dreaming of the day when the red flag will be flying high.
Today I read a long list of public sector fat-cats (many of whom were in the BBC), all of whom were enjoying pensions of Goodwin-esque proportions. In addition, The Times ran an interesting article, exposing such "useful" quangos as The National Policing Improvement Agency which has an annual budget of £450m, 1,850 staff and the entirely risible mission of "making a valuable contribution to improving public safety".
No-one denies the manifest unfairness of everyone else taking the rap for banking idiocy (and I speak as someone made redundant due to "the crunch"), but, if the axe is coming, lets make sure it falls on the deserving duds who have somehow contrived to get paid six-figure sums for running a non department in a quango.
Aside from the student union level of your debating skills, I actually agree with much of what you say/rant. However, the public sector, and the larger quangocracy that surrounds it, has been loaded with non jobs and meaningless departments by the terminally idiotic Brown. There will be cuts, of that you can be sure. But those cuts will not be experienced by many of these absurdities in suits. No siree, it will be the front line workers that take the fall.
I'm as cynical as they come mate. Cuts will happen and the real irony is Brown will probably invent another quango to identify where cuts need to be made. He could start with his own Cabinet.
127

Proghead,

Embra 06/07/2009 14:50:59
#130

Good post. I Like the Wolfie comparison. As you say, the innocent will be punished, as you were, when it comes time to cutbacks. The higher levels will keep their positions, but we'll lose the frontline troops so our bins will be left unemptied etc.....
128

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:19:59
130

The simplicity of it all eh? got it all in a nutshell and it didnt take more than a few lines of print to express it either.
The standard option is to force cuts on the public sector by telling everybody its overloaded with wasters and do nothing departments. Its a bit like pushing the public perception into believing the social services does nothing but give money to work shy shiftless druggies. Its standard tory propaganda and its all perception and bullsh*t. If you did away with the public sector altogether you couldnt save a spit in the ocean of the private sector conceived debt we are in.
So all you have acheived with your post in my opinion is display a complete and utter acceptance of the false perception put out by consecutive governments and mogul owned media outlets. Wake up sunshine the real world is out there waiting for you.
129

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:31:39
129

I am not against having a private sector I just dont see why the public sector has to pay for its down turns when it doesnt benefit from the profits it makes during the good times.
130

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:34:36
132

Really so how much of your salary have you volunteered to give up? have you told your boss you dont want a pay rise this year?
131

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 15:41:22
I had a massive pay cut this year of 30% without warning and it was basically like it or lump it.

The company could not continue to pay me and continue to function.

After 4 months I changed jobs as I could not survive.

Life is tough in the private sector.

132

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:42:52
131

And yet in spite of the savings from the cuts our tax burden will increase exponentially along with the cost of living. The private sector will recover and start making enormous profits again which the public wont get a sniff off until the next big downturn and its lets cut the public sector some more there are still one or two departments we can privatise for profit.
And before you know it we are living in Gattaca with a clear distinction between those with nothing and those with everything.
133

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:44:30
136

Its funny how the exact amount you were paid was enough to save the company from going under though eh?
134

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 15:46:25
136

Shame you werent affilated to a decent union.
135

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 15:47:04
WE all need to look at ourselves as stop assessing what we thing we are worth and realise the next few years will be about what we can survive on.

I agree that the politicians and the banking elite have screwed us.

The workers have always suffered. They are the front line troops, the ones who starve and the ones who are expected to keep the country going.

The unions should have a good look at which political party they have been funding as it is the union and the political party supported by the same unions who have caused the problems.

Public sector pensions are the best in Europe. We do not have best economy in europe.

Nobody deserves a pay cut just like nobody deserves to get ill but is happens.
136

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 15:51:01
Saltire,

I work for a small company. My bosses have additional money. To make it worse I worked 70 per week during the good times making them a fortune in the sales departments increasing wealth.

I was and am totally raging. It is unfair and disgusting.

I am however not going on strike because I will not stop working because my job is to feed my family first and the ego of a union next.

Their is no money in the pot.

If the UK are unable to sell gilts this year we are screwed more than ever in history.
137

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:04:17
141

Going on strike is not about feeding the ego of unions and union bosses its about using the only effective tool you have against working as a slave. If you didnt have the option of withdrawing your labour or didnt have the blanket of labour laws only introduced because our forefathers had the guts to go on strike enmass then your children would be working 100 plus hours per week on factory floors and offices along side you at a rate of 50p and hour.
The only reason you have the salary that you do have is because somebody before you fought and suffered hard times to establish a security net which is being eroded every year with new legislation and the erosion of the unions. The minimum wage is a joke because there was no effective force in place to fight for a rate somebody could live on.
138

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 16:04:38
I have a background in finance and economics and I am very concerned about the UK's position financially.

We are about to be bankrupted by greedy little unions who are responsible for bankrolling the government who screwed the system in the first place.

It is not the fault of any public sector workers on the front line but the real cost is the higher management.

£30K per year for shuffling paper at the council offices when a 17 year school leaver could do the same job is a joke. In the council length of service means more money not quality of service.

As for sickness their is not an employer anywhere in the UK that compares in numbers to how many council workers are signed off on full pay.

I think the people who earn less than £20K should get a pay rise paid for by cuts in those above £40K. You would be very surprised how much the Civil service are earning.

Politicians should have a pay cut. They failed in their jobs and should struggle by on £150K per year.



139

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:17:08
143

A 17 year old school leaver could sit at a PC and gamble billions of pounds on the open market with the same chance of winning or losing it as any so called finance wizard in the private sector and with less checks and balances in place to deal with the fall out. Youre not even trying so I guess its all about filling posting space for your clients who want to advertise?
140

Whopitt,

06/07/2009 16:18:52
133

I assume that you didn't actually think about what was written at 130. Stop for a second and exercise the grey matter. I will break it down for you:

1. The country is bust.
2. The tab is going to be picked up by everyone, not just those who are responsible.
3. There are some non-jobs in the public sector.
4. These jobs should not have been created and now are a luxury that needs to go.
5. Further job cuts should be focussed on management.
6. Job cuts will probably be in key front line staff in areas nobody would call a non-jobs.
7. It's wrong but it's still going to happen.

You may if you wish respond to this with another irrelevant rant on the "standard perception" and "tory propaganda".
141

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 16:20:47
#142 Saltire,

I am well aware of the history of the unions and yes I support all they achieved.

We are not talking about avoiding slavery here we are talking about avoiding financial melt down by causing public borrowing for government funded work to be far more than private enterprise.

We all want the same things but a teacher can struggle on with 14 week a year holiday and £30k earnings without a payrise.

A police constable on highest grade can survive on £33K for another year.

The cleaner can maybe get a payrise and the top management and civil service sacrifice.

The FSA should just be hung....out to dry and have their earnings capped at 0.

I want equality in society but you are asking society to pay for a public service that society cannot afford.

Only two apples on the tree we cannot have three apples just because there is three people.

I wish it were not this way.

And you fooling yourself if you think there is no ego in the union leaders motives.
142

JayJay,

Right here 06/07/2009 16:24:09
#133/Wolfie/Dave Spart
What on earth do you mean by:- "all you have achieved with your post in my opinion is display a complete and utter acceptance of the false perception put out by consecutive governments and mogul owned media outlets."
So essentially what you are saying is that Gordon Brown has spent the last decade spending like a lunatic, hugely increasing budgets across health and education, then manufactured a massive global recession, bailed out the banks and brought UK plc to the brink of bankruptcy all as part of some awful conspiracy in partnership with Rupert Murdoch.
I get it now! Presumably it was the Illuminati, Opus Dei, Dr Evil and SMERSH who were the architects of this evil plot.
There is nothing false about my perception of the state of the UK economy. Unless of course you think there is a money tree somewhere. We are goosed!
143

BIG EYE,

Paisley 06/07/2009 16:24:12
some posters will not agree but the only certainty is that IRRESPECTIVE of which Party is in power MASSIVE cuts in public sector spending and jobs are coming.

Why?

Because Labour have bankrupted Britain and their is no option but to make substantial cuts across the board.

Labour like to give the impression that their heads are in the sand over this but they know hwat they are doing, they are ensuring a major mess when the Tories takeover and instead of taking the responsible measures now they risk even more people losing everything...just to save their own skins for a few months longer.

The Brown Government will be long remembered as it has left us in the brown stuff for generations!
144

Whopitt,

06/07/2009 16:26:12
146

I agree. I have spent many years turning around failing companies, and it is always the same. The bosses on big salaries continue on the the bitter end. The cleaners, secretaries and staff at the bottom of the pile get it in the neck - some get fired, and the others are scared for their job. The easiest way to fix the problem was to cut management number and pay, and spread a chunk of the savings on payrises for the guys at the bottom. Morale and productivity leap through the roof.
145

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:34:27
145

What you say may very well be true but it isnt the answer to the problem like I said you could take out the entire public sector and the cost of running it and it wouldnt even make a perceptable dent in the economic hole we are in nor will it stop the government from increasing our tax burden exponentially relative to inflation. So the cuts would be pointless and would only cause unnecessary targetted suffering of those who were never responsible for the problem.
And then what? we have no public sector and the private sector after being bailed out by the tax payer is again back on its feet making obscene profits which it doesnt share with the public and goes bust again what do we cut back on to bail them out this time? Maybe we could sell our first born or prostitute our daughters?
146

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:41:14
146

Are you honestly posting that cutting back on public sector salaries will prevent private sector financial meltdown? Is that a standard mathematical model where you live? public sector salaries / wage cuts and redundancies = private sector financial recovery? how is Elvis and is Shergar getting its oats?
147

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:43:56
147

I suggest you read it all again or better still get your mum to read it for you slowly. Try spacing out the letters if this problem persists.
148

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 16:52:17
Well it looks like its only me and the bored Scotsman staff on today.
149

JayJay,

Right here 06/07/2009 16:53:44
#152
No need tiger.
I consider you to be either a wind up merchant or one of those perpetual students, complete with "revolutionary issue" facial hair, who lives in a world riddled with global conspiracies.
Whatever your feelings on the matter, the UK is an economic mess. Any meaningful manufacturing sector we had has been replaced by a mix of financial charlatans and dippy quang-types. Neither produce anything, and the entire bubble is about to pop.
To you, that's all a fantasy. If you ever get, or had, a job, you'd appreciate how ludicrous your whole argument sounds.
150

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 17:09:34
154

Yer an a*se or youre trying very hard to impersonate one. Of course the UK is a financial mess and its a result of over 30 years of Conservative political values imposed upon us by a politically corrupt system which allows a party to win a general election with less than 40% of the voting public. It is a political system which is bought and paid for through party funding by those who wish to buy policy and favours.
It is a system which has full control of the media and can manipulate public perception.
Perfect examples of this false perception manipulation is the stigma attached to those claiming benefits. This stigma is encouraged in order to allow consecutive governments an excuse to tighten the thresholds of those who can claim irrespective or not of how much the have contributed to the system via their taxes and NI contributions. Another prime example is the false perception that taxation rates and public services are proportional. No matter how much taxation we end up paying public services are always cut annually so where does the money go? its kept safe for a private sector rainy day in order to bail out failing financial institutes because its they who pay for the political parties and allows them to exist in spite of the fact that they are all supposed to be bankrupt and in debt. They are certainly in debt and are paying for that debt by introducing new legislation in favour of private enterprise at the expense of the tax payer.
151

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 17:26:28
151The Saltire, 06/07/2009 16:41:14
146

Are you honestly posting that cutting back on public sector salaries will prevent private sector financial meltdown? Is that a standard mathematical model where you live? public sector salaries / wage cuts and redundancies = private sector financial recovery? how is Elvis and is Shergar getting its oats?

============================

Now I was giving my honest input. I cannot help but agree with the poster at #154 Jay-Jay about your student tendencies.

Economic policy is not as simple as you are painting it.

As for you assumption that public sector would not make a dent in the government borrowing figures what do you think the PSBR is actually for.

I also did not intent to request pay cuts in the front line staff. The managers should have salaries reduced.

As for the pension liability of the public sector this is accepted fact that future generations will have to wrestle. Every pay rise brings about an exponential increase in the liability.

You need to tune into realism and loose some of the idealism.

================================

What you are asking for is FAIR. It is just not POSSIBLE.

================================

As for the accusation of working for the Scotsman I find that the most offensive thing said to me in a long time.
152

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 17:38:17
156 Sgian Achlais,

He accused me of working for the Scotsman because I suggested that the Public Pensions Scandal had to be tackled and I agree that a pay freeze is hard to avoid.

The Increase in taxation and NI will make our eyes water.

BTW I'm already retired so I don't work for anybody, I know one thing the basic Old age pension has not done well under Brown & Darling in spite of their promises. Anything you put away is means tested
153

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 17:39:19
Saltire,

"They are certainly in debt and are paying for that debt by introducing new legislation in favour of private enterprise at the expense of the tax payer."

===========================================

Who do you think actually pay the taxes. It is only private enterprise that injects money into the economy. do not be mixing the joiner up with the Fred Goodwin and his elk.

Your understanding of economics is very skewed or flawed.

When the public sector pay taxes they are simply returning money back to the treasury money created in the private sector. Private sector feeds public sector.

We are all workers and we are all people but their are reasonable limits to what can be taken out of an empty well.



154

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:41:07
I still think that some of you are missing the point. This is not Alistair Darling's business. He is responsible for financing local authorities, health boards, etc who then employ staff. Apart from the civil service he doesn't employ the people who work for the public sector, but he is talking about a pay freeze and effectively cutting the employers, with whom several of the Unions have already concluded multi-year deals, out of the loop.

in short he is mixing it. He looks as if he is actually trying to provoke industrial action.

He apparently can't tell the banks how to organise their wage systems even 'though in the guise of the Chancellor he bought most of them, but he can tell other public sector employers who are basically autonomous what to do ?

Just have a wee think about it. What is he up to ?
155

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 17:44:43
156

I thought as much why dont you just post under one name. I dont mind staying on these threads if there is a decent debate going but you just turn it into swiss cheese with your inane guff. Either learn to debate or employ somebody who can do it properly believe me in the long run you will get far more posts.

157

No I accused you because youre as transparent as day. Like I said stick to one name and improve your debate you will keep folk on here longer.
156

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 17:44:44
159 Observer

he is working round to cutting the money the treasury gives out. He knows he has to cut spending but he is pooling to use as much sleight of hand as possible.

Everything Labour are doing just now is deceitful.

The Unions should refuse to back this mob unless they call a GE
157

Sgian Achlais,

06/07/2009 17:46:06
#157 TWC,

I think it must be a ploy as both you and I havebeen here for years?
158

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 17:46:54
158

So if its only private enterprise who is injecting money who has paid to bail out the banks?
159

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 17:47:16
160 The Saltire,

You are havering, I only have one logon. You just come on here like some jumped up shop steward who can't face a reasonable debate.

The Nu Labour ranks are full of your kind, unions , theyre as sleazy as the Labour party with a few exceptions of course.
160

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:49:27
161 TWC we all know that Labour are going to have to cut spending, (and raise taxes). But the way you do that in the public sector is by consultation and negotiation, employers and unions work together, OK sometimes they fall out, but a lot of the time they don't. This guy is causing it; he is raising hackles he doesn't need to raise and right at the wrong time. I am telling you it's as if he wants to provoke industrial discord. Either that or he's even more moronic than I thought.
161

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 17:51:05
163 The Saltire,

The public sector don't make anything except holes in the road for the rest of us. If we could choose which services we wanted there would be a huge drop in the public sector and it is coming anyway because the Councils are going to have to centralise their services.

Health workers, teachers and Police the rest could be done by private industry selling at your door.
162

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 17:52:23
oops! Should have said only Health workers, teachers and Police should be public.
163

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 17:53:36
156

The situation you describe and its consequences may be real but why does the establishment try to hide it behind a lie? is it because they are afraid that if their false perceptions are discovered then a new reality will be created? can the situation only exist if its hidden behind false perceptions? I for one believe so.
164

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 17:54:45
166

If there was no public sector then who would bail out the private sector during a crises?
165

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:55:09
166 I think you're getting a bit carried away there. Private sector interventions in public sector services have been fairly disastrous. PFI, Network Rail, etc etc.

The public sector is run on a not for profit basis and that's how it should stay.
166

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:01:58
166

Of course the answer to all our woes privatisation of everything including no doubt the NHS. A two tier nation weighed heavily at the bottom.
A police force which only deals with crime that allows its shareholders to profit by.
An NHS service which only deals with patients who can pay their excessive fees in advance.
A postal service which introduces the first 100 pound stamp in the world.
And when the next financial crunch comes around we can lay off criminals from jail patients from their beds and postal workers from their rounds.
167

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 18:04:01
170 Observer,,
Got a wee bit angry there but I'm really saying it's a balance.

Other countries have fewer things run by the public sector and I believe our public sector is getting too big and is especially top heavy(I do not grudge the ordinary worker their salary) Further the Company pensions industry has collapsed with very few companies able to afford these pensions and yet the Public Pensions continue to grow.

For every £10k the pension bucket has to be £150K, just imagine what the totla pensions bucket is going to be.
168

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 18:07:22
171 The Saltire,

Other countries manage so can we, I didn't say anything about selling off the Health service ore the teachers or the police.
But if we can't get the balance right then something has to give.

BTW I'm a socialist, I would love to nationalise Gas & elecricity etc but the Railways were a pretty poor set up though that may have been down to investment.

169

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:07:43
167

So please explain to me what benefits the public have gained from the privatisation of the railway networks and the utilities?
How about the cost due to competition?
How about the improvement of services? Water? rail timetables? call out maintenance?
What benefits will privatising the post office bring apart from the shutting down of those small pesky wee post offices in rural villages and towns and the massive lay offs in order to improve the stock options?
170

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:13:51
173

Our nationalised services used to be the envy of the privatised run world. Our NHS service used to be the best before the Tories got their claws into it and started to dismantle it in preperation for privatisation by stealth which was adopted by New Labour. Our GPO was the best until it was dismantled and partly sold off. Our train services functioned as it should without the excessive cost we have today. And there was nothing wrong with our utilities until they were privatised and run for personal profit. Now we have contaminated water supplies and a non existant maintenance service because it deducts from share holder profits.
171

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:19:53
Surely the unions should be apologising to us the public rather than calling for strikes.

It is the unions that funded labour, urged us to support them and underpinned the corruption we have seen from their mps.

The recession has been made far worse in the uk becuase of labours gross mismanagement of the economy. The unions should be taking responsibility for their part in this failure.
172

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:19:56
173

What other countries have managed better with private industries? the US? they have a health service under severe critisism and crises. They have doctors and nurses too terrified to work because of the threat of personal law suits. Only those with expensive private health insurance can afford to get sick the rest take their chances at home.
Who pays more for their utilities than we do?
How much better is the nationalised German rail network than ours?
How about the nationalised Dutch rail network?
173

Whopitt,

06/07/2009 18:22:03
Saltire,

You seem to be a bit confused about where public money comes from. It does not come from the public sector. It comes from the private sector in the form of taxes. It is technically possible to have public sector industries but I think that has been shown to be a pretty effective way of destroying wealth not creating it.

If the Government had tucked a bit away in the sporran during the boom years then we would be able to service our huge debt without borrowing or printing money.
174

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:25:37
176

Thatcher destroyed any real power the unions had over government policy. The unions may donate to the Labour party but its a drop in the bucket relative to the money the New Labour party gets from private donations. The Labour party of the unions no longer exists it hasnt since Tory Bliar took control and new funding came in from private sources. Now we have a choice between the blue tories and the red tories and both funded from the same sources hence the privatisation dogma from both parties and the lets cut public services again and find new ways to introduce sneeky taxation increases.
175

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 18:26:49
175 The Saltire,

Water remains nationalised but the directors are all getting big bonuses that's what happened to them all the top salaries went through the roof.

I'm certainly not going to come to the aid of Nu Labour they have allowed the industries to go downhill but it is not through lack of money it's because the money is being spent on the wrong things.

Look what they did with DGPs salaries some GPs Salaries went through the roof.

We can't just throw money ate Nationalised industries.

The bottom line is if our public services get too expensive we need a new way, I hope they stay public but they need to be more efficient.

The next Government and the Unions should get their heads together and make some real changes.

176

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:27:17
178

Ok enlighten me who just bailed out the private sector and with money from where?
177

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:29:20
#175 Saltire

The evidence does not support your assessment.

"Our NHS service used to be the best before the Tories got their claws and started to dismantle it in preperation for privatisation by stealth "

I am not suggesting for one moment that we should privatsie the NHS but what evidence do you have to say that.

For instance remember it was labour in the 70s that actually cut the nhs spending the only government in the history of the nhs to do so. Despite all labour lies the tories in fact never cut nhs spending and it increased yr on yr. The number of doctors etc increased quite alot during the tory yrs. What was the privatisation by stealth. The tories privatised cleaning that was about all. You are too easily taken in by labour election campaigning.

Thatcher could easily have tried to privatise the nhs but did not as she rejected the tax breaks for private medicine.

Our trains have been poor. Remember the 60s cuts with Beeching etc.

Part of the problem with nationalised institutions is who are they run for. Employees or the consumer of the service. And the fact governments are interested in getting elected and that means avoiding making decisions.

For nationalisation to work they would really have to be de-unionised and other than services like the nhs and education not subsidised.

178

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 18:31:40
176 Alan B

I agree with you they should have abanbdoned this useless Labour Government but more than that they should be just as concerned as we are when Public money is ineffectual in their industry whether it is waste ar spent on high paid execs.
179

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:32:36
#179 The Saltire

You missed my point. Labour have wrecked the economy due to ignoring the economic fundamentals for short term political gain.

The unions backed them through this period.

As such the unions have alot to answer for.

The unions could easily have slated browns economic mgt for spending far too much cash in the good times and running up huge debts, for not fully funding public sector pensions which is delayed debt.
180

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:33:09
180
Water is privatised in England and Wales I dont know about NI and its been a disaster from day one. Almost overnight the cost spiralled exponentially above the rate of inflation and hasnt reached a ceiling yet. Worse still there has been one contamination disaster after another since the sell out the massive lay offs of competant trained staff.
And what are we doing if its not throwing far more money at privatised industries for no return? at least the costs where kept at the rate of inflation within the nationalised era.
You simply cannot defend privatisation on the grounds of waste or cost or competition. Those lies have been blown out of the water by bitter experiance.
181

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:38:27
#TWC

I think unions should not be directly politically aligned.

Their role should simply be to ensure that workers are fairly treated etc.

They could then advise the public on which party to vote for if they want. That could mean the education unions could say back the lib who uk wise looke the best option educationally.

They need to be at an arms length to political parties now a days.
182

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:41:05
184

The unions can huff and puff at New Labour all they like they have lost control and influence with them since New Labour found new funding and willing doners.
You can rightly slate the unions for backing New Labour as if they were still the Labour party of old but its irrelevant when you look at the likes of J K Rowling giving them a million because she thought they cared about child poverty. Another victim of false political perception bolstered by a media Lord Haw Haw would have given his right nipple to have on his staff.
183

IainGlasgow,

06/07/2009 18:41:36
The Unions ought to be trying to help expose the amount of public sector funding that is being diverted from pay rises and instead spent on Common Purpose courses. I wonder how much of that is being cut back.

People need to know what is going on with this "Common Purpose" that Brown keeps taking about.

acpscotland.wordpress.com
184

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:43:59
#185 Saltire

I think water privatisation is the biggest mistake.

Privatisation does not work when there is no competition. There simply is no competition with water.

Privatisation by comparison worked very well with telecoms.

Privatisation generally has been good for industry like air travel or the car industries as nationalised companies simply do not produce the good so to speak.

I do not think many would want to privatise public services. As such the only real discussion is round public utilities and rail etc.
185

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:45:11
186

The old Labour party was created by the unions to represent their members against a system designed to keep them down. Unfortunatly it seems the saying power corrupts is absolutely true. You of course dont mind that political parties are affilated to private enterprise and are influenced by private individuals for the price of a party donation as long as the policy is Conservative in nature.
186

TWC,

exLabour 06/07/2009 18:45:57
185 The Saltire,

Well I know water isn't nationalised here and I hope it never is, but I will say that the Trains that I knew under Nationalsation were attrocious.

I don't think we disagree with the your wish list it is just that I don't remember them being as good as you say. and I think I'm a fair bit older than you.

I have nothing against nationalisation but only if it is run for the people not for the Unions and the industry which was how it used to be.

On BR the passengers were incidental, I remember a rush hour train which came into Queen street had four carriages and was always late but all carriages were full.
BR said it was because of the four carriages so they took one off. The outcome was a whole carriageful of people didn't get on at all but the train got there on time.
187

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:49:34
I think you should consider the real reason for some of the privatisation.

1)the unionisation meant government did not think they could manage these industries or utilities.
2)government wanted to avoid the hard decisions necessary and the politication the opposition would make of any decision.
3)that government wanted to take the debt of the books. Too much debt undermines the pound, forces up long term interest rates making the uk uncompetitive.

This is party why labour have backed pfi despite being more expensive. To get the debt of balance sheet due to the negative effect that debt has on the uk. Unfortunately the media and politicians do not really go into any detail with this and hence we do not really know or understand the degree to which this really matter. You really have to be an economist to understand the argument.
188

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:50:11
189

The competition chestnut has burst its bubble long ago Alan. Where is the competition keeping the cost of telephone calls and mobile phone calls down?
Where is the competition keeping utility bills down?
Where is the competition keeping the cost of rail tickets down? how about the Airways? how come we pay more to fly from Edinburgh to London than someone who flies from London to New York or New York to San Francisco? You only get cheap flights when seats need to be filled not because somebody else is offering cheaper seats on another airline.
189

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 18:55:00
191

If the trains were always full then doesnt that tell you something about the service?
The trains I remember in the good old days were not atrocious they certainly were not perfect but they were fine. Compared to Virgin rail and Scot rail they were the Orient express. Only GNER kept any real standard and then only just.
190

Alan B,

06/07/2009 18:55:14
#190 Saltire

Can understand why the unions and labour were politically aligned.

I just think that these day have gone now and unions need exist to protect their members. To an extend unions by being so political and in the 70s they were not protecting their members for the pitfalls of the capitalist system but trying to work towards a socialist system by undermining the governments of the time. The political and economic systems must be chosen by the people at the ballot box.

I think it is wrong when teaching unions say they will boycott tests or whatever. I can understand them advocating to the public that they do not think this is the best way but they should not undermine the will of the government when that government has a democractic mandate even if it disagrees.
191

Willie Mor,

06/07/2009 18:55:14
Is this is the same union that has supported Labour throughout is policy of sleaze and corruption.

The same union that has seen corruption on a scale never ever witnessed before.

Well, most people know the answer to this one. Sleaze bag slime bags paid off by a sleaze bag party.

How else could these scummers have supported what has gone on?

Unions, unions, unions, sh!t sh!t Sh!t!

192

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:01:05
192

Rubbish the real reason for privatisation is political dogma and the corruption of our political system. Every one of our public services sold to the private sector where sold for a swan song because the parties responsible for selling them off where bought and paid for by political donations by those who profited from the sale of the services. PFI is another prime example of this corruption and marriage between private enterprise and government.
I am not spouting some kind of extreme leftish rhetoric here I am telling it as I trully perceive it and I bet many other do to.
193

Alan B,

06/07/2009 19:04:07
#193 Saltire

"Where is the competition keeping the cost of telephone calls and mobile phone calls down?"

Phone calls costs fell after privatisation and service improved. BT before privatisation was grossly inefficent.

We also stopped subsiding these industries so that tax money was available for nhs etc.

Part of the reason labour in the 70s had to cut nhs spending was that it was so busy putting so much tax revenue into subsiding industry.

"Where is the competition keeping utility bills down?"

Utility bills fell after privatisaton. Part of the reason for the falling electricity prices was due to moving away from coal to gas though. But the subsidy of coal is a cost the tax payer had to take and is part of the cost of electricity pre privatisation.

I think the issue is the fact when nationalised government poured our tax money into them rather which is money better spent on things like the nhs, pensions etc.

The core problem with nationalisation was severe overmanning and inefficency due to over unionisation and work to rule etc. Govenments effectively used nationisated industry to hide unemployment.

eg BT went from something like 250,000 employs to between 100,000-150,000 only a few yrs later.

As for rail. There is simply is no competition with rail. As I previously pointed out without competition privatisation is much harder to justify.
194

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:08:13
195

The government and the unions were trying to undermine each other because they were politically poles apart. It doesnt pay the ordinary everyday working stiff to have one or the other dominant and in full control there has to be a balance. Management should be allowed to manage but only under checks and balances which dont allow them to run a despotic regime within the work place which can only come from some kind of organised group within the work place not influenced by management even you have to agree to that. This group however should have its own restraints and checks and balances which doesnt allow it to rule over management when it comes to running the business only when it comes to deal directly with members of its staff.
The balance has tipped one way and then the other and has never settled into a happy medium and until it does there will always be unrest in the work place.
195

Phil C,

06/07/2009 19:08:26
A large number of public sector apologists on here seem to think that public sector employees deserve better than everyone else. They think that public sector pensions are fair and justified, while most in the private sector have adapted to the times.

Their union seems happy to disrupt everyone else with threats of damaging strikes, knowing that their members are wrapped in cotton wool when it comes to job security. Their union seems to be unable to accept any communal sacrifices for the greater good. They won't even forego a pay rise when hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs.

It's unions like these that will kill the trade union movement with their selfish and unreasonable demands. Just ask the mercenaries of the 60's and 70's.
196

Alan B,

06/07/2009 19:08:44
#194 Saltire

"If the trains were always full then doesnt that tell you something about the service? "

The number of passengers rose quickly after privatisation.

I do not think that was due to privatisation personally. But it does undermine the statement above.

The way the tories privatised rail was to manage its decline. ie they expected the decline of rail that had been going on for decades to continue.

A transformed economy is probably the most accurate reason for the huge rise in passengers post privisation. Part of that coming in the form of more congestion etc.
197

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:10:23
198

No it didnt the cost of calls has never dropped to its pre nationalised days even taking inflation into consideration.
198

Darien,

Panama 06/07/2009 19:11:01
"Unions in strike threat after pay freeze warning"

Turkeys do vote for Xmas then.
199

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:13:35
198

Grossly inefficient? says who? by what standard? more political perception? who measured the standard and where are the results? if you have none then all you have is your own rhetoric.
200

Alan B,

06/07/2009 19:15:11
#199 Saltire

"The government and the unions were trying to undermine each other because they were politically poles apart."

The winter of discontent was where the trade unions effectively brought down the labour government of the 70s.

Labour wanted to impose keep going with an incomes policy that had brought inflation down from 25% to 13%. The unions went on strike and the rest is history.

The rest of your post misses my point which was the relationship of unions with government.

I have said that unions role should be to protect the worker. I said that they should not be their to undermine the democratic will of the people via the government.

"Management should be allowed to manage but only under checks and balances which dont allow them to run a despotic regime within the work place which can only come from some kind of organised group within the work place"

To an extent i agree. But I have found that those private companies i have worked that are not unionised tend to have a better relationship with the workers.

Unions are one way and only one way to empower the worker. In a robust economy with skilled workers they will just take their skill away. As such that is far more empowering.

I think unions are important for health and safety issues and for low income low skilled jobs.
201

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:16:06
201

If the trains were always full then doesnt that tell you something about the service? "

The number of passengers rose quickly after privatisation.

Youre making this garbage up as you go along come on if youre really that desperate to keep me on here then at least entertain me with a decent debate.
202

Alan B,

06/07/2009 19:20:03
#Saltire

I gave you an example above of inefficency. Where BT could provide a better service with more than 100,000 less people only a few yrs later.

UK industry particularly the nationalised ones were renouned for very poor productivity. That is why the uk was known as the sick man of europe economically in the 70s.

I could equally say all your reteric is just perception too. As you seem to think that pre privatisation everything was rosey when that was clearly not the case.
203

Alan B,

06/07/2009 19:22:27
#206 Saltire

I am not trying to entertain you. But these rail nubmers did rise after privatisation. Sorry that does not suit your agenda.

As i said i do not think that is down to privatisation but other factors.

If you want just to insult then may you will raise your level of debate which seems to be stuck with his head in clouds.
204

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:33:05
208

All you have posted so far is rhetoric and opinion which is fine if you post it as your view point but youre trying to claim and post it as fact. I remember another poster who used exactly the same idiosyncrises, that was AM2 the old Scotsman staff favourite account. Its a bit obvious youre just another staff account but this is getting really tedious cant you people up your game and give us something real to debate with instead of this repetitive wind up garbage?
205

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:34:57
207

You gave me an unsubstanciated string of words put together as a sentence and worth only that.
206

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 19:38:57
207

The UK was known as the sick man of europe because it had a poor health record and poor work attendance record compared to other industrialised nations not because it had a nationalised industry. Like I said making it up as you go along and worthless as anything other than wind up. God I wish I had your job. I wouldnt have to dream about working as a waster in the public sector then.
207

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 19:41:38
The trade unions have got nothing to apologise for as far as the state of the economy is concerned because New Labour, who simply carried on with much the same Thatcherite policies as before,didn't listen to a word they said.

Neither the public sector nor the trade unions have any responsibility whatsoever for the current state of the country in terms of policy decisions. New Labour made the policy decisions and they made them after listening to their friends in the banking and financial sector.

The trade unions, or rather their leadership, are guilty of stupidity in not understanding that the link between them and the Labour Party was broken a long time ago - by the Labour Party.

Trade unions exist to protect their members and get higher wages and better working conditions and they have every right to do so, enshrined in law.

208

Phil C,

06/07/2009 19:46:48
Many unions still support the incompetent filth that is Labour, against the wishes of many members. Yet another example of democracy in Labour Britain.
209

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 19:49:51
And some people seem to be a bit confused about the nature of a mixed economy. The private sector is run for profit, however most people believe that certain services should not be run for profit but are better provided on a collective basis - such as health, education, social housing, Policing, putting out fires etc. All the evidence suggests that if you introduce the profit motive into providing these services - the best example being PFI, the results are a decline in the service provided with a corresponding rise in cost to the tax payer.

If we didn't have these services provided publicly we would have to provide them privately, meaning that access to such basic needs as health provision and education and having somewhere to live would depend on how rich you were.

But the idea that the public sector is a leach that doesn't produce anything of value is nonsense. If you think that then try setting your own broken leg, putting out your own house fire, teaching your own kids, and looking after your own aged relatives 24/7, and catching murderers and rapists yourself, before putting them in your own prison.
210

Phil C,

06/07/2009 19:56:13
#214 You're arguing against yourself, and losing!

Everyone knows that, but why should unions hold the country to ransom for greedy pay rises when so many have had cuts or lost their jobs?
211

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 20:00:01
215 Who is holding the country to ransom ? It isn't the unions, it's the banks.

The problem in this country is the disparity between rich and poor. You have people within both the private and public sectors who are paid obscene amounts of money for failure.

I simply do not see why the ordinary working class man or woman should subsidise them. Do you ?
212

Neil R,

Falkirk 06/07/2009 20:59:22
107 Lee John

So how many as a percentage of public sector workers represent the emergency services? Is your reading always as poor as this: who said I couldn't get my bins emptied? Not me, I just made the point that when I, like many others, think about what the council offers me, I don't see much efficiency or value for money.

109 The Saltire

Forget the ad hominem argument - it never works. What do you say to the points I make? On the other hand if you do want to go head to head intellectually and discuss who has "ignorant stupidity" please lay out your academic record and I will mine.
213

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 21:15:55
217 Can you ''have'' ignorant stupidity ? Is it catching ?

And in post 105 you said that to many private sector workers the public sector are irrelevant. We can read.

Are you good at delivering babies ? Caught many criminals recently ? How are your teaching skills, and are you good at caring for the elderly and the mentally ill ? I'm sure you could manage all that in your lunchtime eh ?
214

Thistledhu,

06/07/2009 21:20:17
I would ask people not to judge public sector workers by the image many seem to hold in this debate.

I do agree there needs to be a root and branch reform of the public sector (local Authorities in the main).
However many of us do work very hard in bad circumstances hamperd by ineptitude and years of bad practice.

yet again the union leaders are mouthing of and makeing threats but yet again they have not consulted there own membership The Farce of last years pay round has taught them nothing.
215

Phil C,

06/07/2009 21:22:24
#216 "Who is holding the country to ransom ? It isn't the unions, it's the banks."

It's both. The public sector unions are about the most intransigent ones left. They don't know the meaning of the words moderate or fair, just selfish and greedy. The banks are also selfish and greedy and they need to be brought to account.

The global finance crisis will eventually sort itself out. The localised disasters created by our wonderful government will take much longer.

The sooner we get rid of the obscenities of obscene 'rewards', obscene public sector pensions, obscene outdated union excesses, obscene banking excesses, obscene bad government, obscene abuses of democracy by Labour, obscene dishonesty perpetrated by Labour, obscene wastes of lives and money through warmongering and the obscene obsruction to Scots living in their own country, the better.
216

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 21:36:36
#207 Alan B

"I gave you an example above of inefficency. Where BT could provide a better service with more than 100,000 less people only a few yrs later"

Sorry, but that can/could be put down to Advances in Technology. This is why unemployment is so sustained, we just don't need that big a workforce any more.

Christ! We don't actually make anything BIG these days eh? The old style heavy-labour industries have Gone! Now there is nothing for those ex-factory workers to do but claim off the system and breed like rabbits.

217

Master of conspiracies,

06/07/2009 22:07:48
Don't you find it ironic that a man who has been fraudulent with his expenses is telling other people to accept a pay freeze. Guess what Mr Darling, a good number of these people have a pre-tax salary which is LESS than your second home allowance.

So out of all that, those people have to pay taxes to line the pockets of failures in our banks, the thieving MPs and the ever burgeoning scum of underclass who deliberately have babies to get free houses. To all you New Labour sychophants. What do value do any of these three groups of scrounging b*****ds provide to society.

Let's see; the Government with crippling taxes, the bankers with fees for all and sundry and the underclass with anti social behaviour. Frankly I wish the ground would open and swallow them up. That way we wouldn't have to pay for their upkeep, the state's finances would improve rapidly and the country might actually become a pleasant place to live.

Tell you what, he private sector should join the strike. Let's leave the country in the hands of the politicians, bankers and utility fat cats for a few days and we'll see how we get on. Maybe they could get some of the teenage baby factories to muck in seeing they all think they're worth so much. Bet you after 2 hours we'll quickly see that the ruling classes need us far more than we need these talentless parasites.
218

Fitba Krazy,

06/07/2009 22:52:52
So what happens now then?

A recommended pay rise for MPs?

That would be typical Labour, the party who say they are on the side of the poor, the homeless, the sick and the unemployed. Oh aye and the workers.

What a bunch of eejits.

Who voted that lot in?

Do the unions still persuade the workers to vote for them?

Hell mend those who did/do.
219

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 23:17:48
I think at least half the public sector workers in this country could be sacked and nobody would notice a hoot of difference ... well that is apart from the unemployment would rise by a staggering amount - but that would be a good thing in the long terms as those left in government would have to think about how to stimulate growth in the real economy to re-absorb the vast numbers of unemployed created when you remove all the 'created' government jobs ....

Unions are also disgusting relics of the past ... there is so much employment law protecting all workers these days Unions serve no purpose whatsoever except that of rabble rousing and holding the tax payer to ransom whilst they enjoy life on easy street and fat pensions.
220

All or nothing,

06/07/2009 23:24:09
Thw welfare state has made them into a bunch of greetin wee bairns
221

Highland Mist,

06/07/2009 23:33:39
Well we could save the country a fortune by getting rid of half of the layabouts who work at Fife Council and do nothing and care not a hoot for the public they serve. Make them work proper hours, be answerable to someone and monitor what they actually do for their money and their flexi time and early overpaid retirement pots.

Last week 2 suited clowns from Environmental Health came to my door in the middle of the day and disturbed my work. They were there to ask me why I had 2 grey bins and refused to tell me how they knew I ahd them. They were told I had bought one 10 years ago, it is used to store my recycling which Fife Council does not collect because it doesn't hav ethe cash. maybe if they didn't spend so much money on sending 2 suited, overpaid flexi-time do-gooders round our doors with absurd questions they'd be able to uplift our refuse more than every 14 days and also uplift the recylcing which I can't recyle daily because I HAVE TO WORK TO PAY MY COUNCIL TAX, 85% OF WHICH GOES TO PAY LAYABOUTS TO DO SWEET DAMN ALL INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY PROVIDING A PUBLIC SERVICE. Freeze their pay? I'd slash it and stop the absurd holidays and absurd pensions to boot - they need to get into the real commercial workd, a world where the rest of us acually work to keep commerce going and keep them in a job.

 

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