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Hamas marches on in name of Islam

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Published Date: 15 June 2007
HAMAS fighters captured the most important security compound in Gaza City yesterday as the fundamentalist movement comprehensively routed Fatah forces loyal to the moderate president, Mahmoud Abbas.
Hamas's capture of the Preventive Security Compound in the Tel al-Hawa area delivered a knockout blow to Fatah and led Hamas to proclaim the start of a new era in the Gaza Strip.

Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas's Executive Force militia sai
d: "The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived."

Fourteen people, mostly Fatah fighters were killed and 80 wounded in the clash. At least 25 people were killed throughout the Gaza Strip.

Palestinian reports said that five children, all under 16, were killed by Israeli tank fire in the south of the region. The Israeli army denied its forces had fired in the area.

Hamas also seized a second major Fatah facility in Gaza City, leaving only two remaining fortifications under Fatah control. It took over Fatah's last remaining compound in the southern city of Rafah after defenders ran away, according to a senior police official.

A long-awaited announcement by Mr Abbas outlining his response to Hamas's takeover of the Strip did not materialise by nightfall, adding to a widespread sense that he has failed to show leadership during the crisis.

Aides said he might formalise the emerging split between the West Bank and Gaza by dismissing the unity government between Fatah and Hamas and putting himself in charge of an emergency cabinet. Whatever he does, it will be much too late to reverse the damage to his own and Fatah's standing in Gaza.

There were threats and signs yesterday that revolutionary Islamic justice was being meted out by Hamas. Reports said that several defeated defenders were herded out of the Preventive Security (PS) headquarters in Tel al-Hawa by Hamas militiamen to an uncertain fate. Hamas has described PS personnel as collaborators with Israel.

Fatah officials said Hamas shot and killed seven of its fighters outside the Preventive Security building, while a doctor said he had examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

Ebullient Hamas fighters touched their foreheads to the ground in prayer and said that the facility, which had been used to interrogate and torture Hamas leaders, would be turned into a college for religious studies and that the neighbourhood would be renamed Tel al-Islam (Hill of Islam)

On the West Bank, Fatah's stunned leadership, whose weakness has been laid bare by the fighting, spoke of a threat to the existence of the "Palestinian national project" by the Hamas takeover of Gaza.

Hamas fighters said that after capturing the PS headquarters they had found files confirming that the agency had been "working for the Zionist enemy and was involved in the assassination of resistance leaders".

Israel was monitoring the developments, with some analysts saying there could be positive effect for Israeli interests. Gidi Grinstein, the head of the Reut Institute in Tel Aviv, said a split between Gaza and the West Bank and the viewing of them as distinct territories would be advantageous to Israel.

"It opens a new spectrum of options," he said. "The creation of Hamas-stan in Gaza and Fatah-land in the West Bank means we can fight Hamas in a more coherent way and deal with Fatah in the West Bank in a more forthcoming way."

He predicted Hamas will be hard pressed to deliver on services to the people of Gaza and could expect even less co-operation from Israel on revenues, exports and movement of goods.

• WATCHING Hamas gunmen celebrating their capture of a key security compound yesterday, Palestinians in the Gaza battle zone voiced fears of deepening economic hardship in a territory run by the extremist group.

"I think Gaza will be sealed off and isolated from the rest of the world. We have been suffering and now will suffer more," said Gaza City resident Hussam Ahmed, 36.

A Hamas supporter in Gaza, who gave his name only as Ali, said he was not frightened by the prospect of more hardship. "What else could happen to us? The world has never recognised Hamas, anyway," he said.

"Gaza is going to become a safer place for Muslims after the defeat of the collaborators. Threats don't scare us."

Khamees al-Degger, 40, watched along with hundreds of others who rushed to the captured Gaza security compound as Hamas gunmen hugged each other and handed out pastries to onlookers. "A new Taleban state is being shaped in Gaza," he said.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 June 2007 9:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lebanon
 
1

Black & White Triumph,

WA 14/06/2007 23:29:22

We know where they all are noew so it should be easy to keep an eye on these nutters

2

sandy,

USA 15/06/2007 00:28:18

now that Hamas has taken Gaza w/the help of Syria, Iran & Russia, what next? do you think the taking of the West Bank is in their future?

3

Listen Ear,

15/06/2007 00:35:30

Sandy... I gather you teleported from the USA of Israel to GAZA...

How can you support Israelis???....

"Palestinian reports said that five children, all under 16, were killed by Israeli tank fire in the south of the region".

We must ALL Write to Our MP's and Demand Sanctions on Israel.. Let them send their Squatters back to wgherever they came from.

4

Scullion,

Canada 15/06/2007 00:47:34

Hamas, gangsters as they appear to be, are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. It was Fatah who did not give up the security role as they should have.
In any event, Hamas had better indulge in a little real politik with its neighbour or more blood will be shed. I can't see Israel allowing the Gaza border with Egypt to be unscrutinized.

5

Stan the Man,

15/06/2007 01:19:29

While the Islamo-fascists kill each other in Gaza, another fascist, Kurt Waldheim, has bit the dust, but this newspaper didn't think it fit to provide comments space.
Interested to see who pays their respects!

6

Conan,

Here 15/06/2007 01:21:07

#4 makes the point that (in 2007); 'Hamas, gangsters as they appear to be, are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people.'

Is this any different than saying (in 1939); NAZIs, gangsters as they appear to be, are the democratically elected representatives of the German people.

Perhaps the future of both peoples will be the same, given the democratically elected leadership is the same? Well, maybe that's being a little unfair to the NAZIs.

However, Scullion also warns that Hamas 'had better indulge in a little real politik'. Why? Who will make them do so - Iran, Syria, Russia? To what end? Hamas is not about 'real' anything - except terrorism - just ask an 'executed' Fatah member. Hamas does not even accept that Israel exists - something like a man not believing in the train that's about to run over him.

No, it seems the more likely that Hamas will gather themselves into a nice tight target box, of benefit only to IDF targetting managers. And that is a very good thing. Shame it is so. But, it is so.

In the meantime, it cannot be viewed as an entirely bad thing that the terrorists are in disarray and slaughtering each other - this may make the IDF's task a little easier when the time for action inevitably comes.

7

Dox,

15/06/2007 03:53:32

5 I wouldn't mind some comments on Baron Rothschild.

8

Covert Action,

15/06/2007 04:26:25

#3

Wouldn't you want to corroborate that report first? Or is your jew-hatred so deep?

9

phild,

Canada 15/06/2007 04:35:52

#3,

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity.
Take your concern for the "peaceful" hamas, fatah, muster up all of the british sympathizers you can find and march off to hamastan to help them create the Utopia you deserve.
I don't think Israel needs to bother shooting anymore. Your Pals. are doing a fine job of it all on their own.

10

Grafted Wild Olive Shoot,

Sojourner 15/06/2007 05:18:16

The comment by # 3 Listen Ear is based on lies and will only incite violence. Look at history and you will see that the immigrants are the Arabs. In 1893 there weren't even 93,000 of them. Most of these Arabs are from adjoining territories who came as a result of the Jews coming back to their land.
The Jews history and rights to the land go back 4,000 years and Jerusalem as been recognised as their capital for more than 3,000 years.
Let us as Scots stand for Truth and Justice for Israel. Baruch Hashem Adonai

11

oder,

Scotland 15/06/2007 05:44:05

3. Listen Ear

you should not hate, it does`nt go along with common sense.

12

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 06:04:41

Israel systematically destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure in order to create the mayhem that is now unfolding.

BUT, lets be honest!

The Palestinians are not free from blame either. In truth, both nations are the single biggest threat to world peace and have been for sometime.

There is no point in taking sides anymore. Both of them are as bad as the other. Their behaviour toward eachother has been deplorable,both are racist,barbaric and utterly void of reason and its about time that both were disciplined for creating so much death and destruction.

13

HA,

15/06/2007 07:03:21

I thought I would look at the comments to see if the usual people would, as usual take any opportunity to trash Israel. As I suspected, yes. Some people are soooo predictable.
That's why I don't come here much any more. Too predictable for words.

14

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 07:13:14

#12 HA: Nobody here trashing Israel. Thats your propoganda.

Some people are pointing out that she has acted irresponsibly and violently.

I pointed out that she is as bad as Palestine. BOTH countries are a disgrace,both are racist,both are violent,both are barbaric in their approach to the value of human life and both need to be disciplined. end of story

15

,

15/06/2007 07:26:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

,

15/06/2007 07:28:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 15/06/2007 07:44:18

Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas's Executive Force militia said: "The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived."

Said without even a hint of irony.

Wake up people! These guys in Hamas are simply not up for negotiation. They are not especially interested in world opinion. So, leave them to their Islamic Paradise. Withdraw all western aid, and let the good people of Iran, Syria and Russia (what on earth are they playing at) fund their "noble" cause. Its only a matter of time before they start fighting with their allies in some sort of "I'm more Islamic than you" contest.
Bash Israel all you like from the comfort of your nice flat in Morningside. I doubt you'd be especially happy if these characters moved in next door.

18

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 07:49:12

#16 jay jay: Your wrong, BOTH countries are barbaric,violent and immoral.

We should throw both of them into the sea until they learn how to act accordingly.

19

Douglas,

Bathgate 15/06/2007 07:52:48

Hamas indeed. The name makes me think of a pig's bottom, coincidentally exactly what they are creating.
Both sides clearly drunk on the power of the gun and a flawed belief in better things to come if you butcher people in this life.

20

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 15/06/2007 08:04:32

#17
I beg to differ. How on earth can you negotiate with people who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist? What position should you take with a neighbour who takes the stance that you must be wiped from the face of the earth?
I have not yet heard of Israelis using their religion to justify appalling acts....or maybe I missed that?
I say again, sitting safely in leafy suburbia, there appear to be a great many people who, for reasons best known to themselves, wish to take sides with those who believe Sharia should define our earthly morality. People who would side with a totalitarian philosophy that abhors the concept of a state, and believes absolutely that, if you are non Muslim, then you can be legitimately killed.
I am no apologist for war mongers on either side. War is horrific, bad things happen. That said, I am perfectly clear on who I'd prefer to see "win" - if such a thing is ever an outcome of war.
And incidentally, when I hear of the "suffering" of the ordinary people in Palestine...perhaps its time they started asking their government why there seems always to be plenty money for guns and rockets, and none for bread. But of course you can't ask those sort of questions in Gaza can you?

21

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 08:29:13

Media #11 has ilustrated the true scale of the problem, i.e. both sides are basically hell bent on inflicting harm on the other. Isreal has created the last set of accepted concentration camps on earth, where people live in essentially prison like conditions but without food, healthcare and water. It is perhaps no surprise that Hamas and other groups have siezed this chance to brnig their own perverted idiology to a desperate set of people. Hamas and others (look for the video) even encourage children under 5 to play at terrorist games and chant that their best honour is to die for Allah. I think it is time ALL sides were cut off from the outside, none has behaved in an acceptable way and it is time really to let them fight it out. Only once they both face mutually assured destruction will they come to their senses.

22

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 15/06/2007 08:50:46

JayJay wrote:
"I beg to differ. How on earth can you negotiate with people who refuse to acknowledge your right to exist? What position should you take with a neighbour who takes the stance that you must be wiped from the face of the earth?"

Absolutely correct. Its a religious imperative to do so for fundamentalist Hamas.

This is a quote from Hamas:

"There will be no dialogue with Fatah, only the sword and the rifle," said Nezar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader.

"God willing, we will lead the Friday prayer in the president's office, and transform the (Fatah-controlled) security complex into a big mosque."

Hamas are more than willing to kill any fellow Muslims to establish their fundamentalist state.

No-one is forcing Hamas on their killing spree. It is simply Islam, in its bare bone fundamentals at work.

Let's stop blaming everyone else for the evil of fundamentalist Islam. It is evil full stop.

23

exiledscot,

15/06/2007 08:52:25

What I find appalling in this tragic state of affairs is that both sides have access to an endless supply of weapons and consume them at a frightening rate whereas food supplies and other necessities are having to be provided to the Palestinians free of charge mainly by the EU and the US - I'll be accused of being naïve, but I would say give up all your weapons in exchange of food etc. I'm sure most of the population in Gaza would prefer this solution, no?

24

Ian paddy,

Ireland 15/06/2007 08:54:50

As a species we seem to have a pre-disposition to sucumb to fanatacizm both political and religious.
The innocents on all sides obeing the pawns in someone elses game.
I Pity the Palestinians who think that Hamas will improve anything. If there is a heaven and hell then
I think they are building the hell right now.
True freedom is the way you look at things, having the freedom to form your own opionions, not having them force fed by the mullahs, or the media.
When the chips are down all of us whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddest, Hindu, Sihk, Atheist etc etc share the same fundamental values, love our families, our children etc. The sooner we learn to think for ourselves the sooner we will have peace.
In the words of John Lennon "Imagine",

25

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 08:57:34

I am going to go on a spree in Edinburgh and convert the Parliament into a giant Chocolate Shop. Its a bit less harmful but just as crazy and illogical. Which lets face is is the case with most religions. Islam is just going through its reformation and who knows which way it will go....

26

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 09:54:19

Niadh, well said. We have Isreal now and must accept it - it has as much right to exist as any Palistinain state. I had thought the death of Arafat and the disappearance of Sharon would have brought a new era of common sense, but the zealots on both sides refuse to talk in terms of anything other than saving their holy sites. So let them fight it out... If they are too dumb to see that their religions are based on fraud and politics then they really deserve almost no help.

However the whole concept of throwing the lcoal population out of their homes and livlihoods ater WW2 in the name of resettlement was immoral. We are paying a high price for it!

27

Dragomir,

15/06/2007 10:02:13

"""A long-awaited announcement by Mr Abbas outlining his response to Hamas's takeover of the Strip did not materialise by nightfall, adding to a widespread sense that he has failed to show leadership during the crisis."""

This has probably something to do with:

"""Israel was monitoring the developments, with some analysts saying there could be positive effect for Israeli interests. Gidi Grinstein, the head of the Reut Institute in Tel Aviv, said a split between Gaza and the West Bank and the viewing of them as distinct territories would be advantageous to Israel."""

28

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 10:20:16

#29, this is good news for Isreal and the West. It means that hopefully one part will be willing to enter into meaningful dialog rather than making everything into a site of slaugher, religious school or mosque.

I feel very sorry for the people of Palistine who have been led up the garden path and now face hell or earth at the hands of a Sharia dominated Hamas. But that is the price you pay for not being able to think for yourself.

29

Covert Action,

15/06/2007 11:02:11

#25. Naidh would be more appropriate.

The jews didn't CHOOSE to leave and spread around the world. They chased and expelled by the Romans. Doris.

30

sandy,

USA 15/06/2007 11:16:09

#3--listen ear---""Palestinian reports said that five children, all under 16, were killed by Israeli tank fire in the south of the region"".....

this little piece was thrown in just to give people like you sustenance to go on w/your absolute hatred of all things Israel w/out missing a beat.......you have not disappointed...

31

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 11:27:18

#19 Jay Jay: Unlike you, I have no allegiance to either nation involved in this conflict. To be honest, I think they are both as bad as eachother.

Israel has destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure in order to ensure that all out anarchy prevails. That way, she can claim international sympathy on the basis that the agressor is Palestine. However, since Israel has destroyed the infrastructure it is impossible for the Palestinian authority to take control of the situation.

The Palestinians on the other hand are just as ruthless and just as much to blame. There is absolutely no way that either of these nations can be taken seriously anymore and I would therefore, love to see a international sanctions placed on both nations. Both these nations are NO FRIENDS of mine. Both of them engage in the most barbaric crimes against humanity and both must be viewed as such.

Israel vs Palestine! Let them fight it out with no support from the rest of the world. Let them destroy eachother and behave like barbaric heathens. Let them both murder,rape and pillage eachother. But lets not encourage them by offering anymore financial assistance.

32

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 11:56:06

#32, perhaps I was a little harsh on everyone. Also while I agree Tony was/is a facade, he is nowhere near as evil against his own population as Hamas and no doubt some elements of Fatah.

In my opinion the only way for anything peaceful to occur there is if both sides try (although it is next to impossible) to remove the religious fanatacism which exists. This can only occur if the people of Palistine turn their backs on the likes of Hamas and the Imams who tell them to kill. I saw children aged about 3-5 at a Hamas playgroup being instructed on how to act as terrorists and saying how they look foward to death. Assuming (I hope) that they are all still alive that means we have several decades of brainwashed drones left to get through.

I have no doubt that building a viable Palistinian state is the only solution, however that cannot happen with the current crop of politicians. Abbas is the nearest hope, but he is powerless.

On a personal note this week I was on the verge of giving some money to a charity which trains children and teeenagers in places like Gaza how to use IT systems and to earn a decent living wage. Only through initiatives such as that can things begin to change there. However I dount money of infidels will be welcmoe under the likes of Hamas. All I can hope for is that the children featured on the charities website are still alive.....

33

Zuckerman,

15/06/2007 12:11:50

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow

You sound like a familiar poster with a new name.

34

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 12:13:03

actually, I am not, I have had the same ID for about two years and it is the only one I have had, sorry to shatter your illusion.

35

ruvane,

bermuda 15/06/2007 12:34:48

isnt it queer for so many people who should know better seem to sympathize with a bunch of uneducated filthy arabs. israel has had to fight 5 wars. They should have wiped out all their neighbors when they had the chance

36

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 12:43:54

#41 ruvane: You need to grow up! If she has fought 5 wars she must be unable to stay out of trouble.

There is no smoke without fire! Both are to blame and both should be shunned by the international community.

37

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 12:46:46

Well with the exception of those who oppose the violence in Palistine and Isreal I see no side as victims, only as perpetrators. Sadly both sides are backed my those with money and arms, so it will go on for a while yet. The USA for one will never ignore the Jewish lobby.

A quick note of worldwide (religious) trouble spots/acts does thow up some interesting stats:

Palistine: Islam Vs Islam and in turn the Jews
Isreal: Islam vs Jews
Iraq: Islam Vs Islam
Indonesia: Islam Vs secular Islam
Philippines: Islam Vs a secular probably Catholic Govt.
USA (Sept 11th): Islam Vs USA or rather Western Values
Madrid (train bombing): Islam Vs Western Values
Sudan: Islam Vs ?
Afghanistan: Islam Vs Islam
London (trains): Islam Vs Western Values
Somalia: Islam Vs Govt
Lebanon: Islam (with Syria/Iran) Vs Everyone

That is of course a very selective list there are many other conflicts througout the world, but from a religious perspective one faith does seem to dominate. That said Christianity appears to be doing its work in much more subtle ways....

It would however appear that one religion, for whatever reason is very p*ssed off.

38

,

15/06/2007 13:03:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
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39

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 13:17:49

#45 Reading Public: How did the American senate become so infested with such bacteria?

40

,

15/06/2007 13:24:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 711803, Article id was mapped to record!
41

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 15/06/2007 13:26:55

#35 - I am afraid you are wrong again about me. I am no fan of either, but I say again, how would any nation react to being surrounded by states who wish to destroy it? We can paint any pretty picture we like, but Hamas, with an atomic bomb, would plant it in the centre of Tel Aviv. You think they are people who we should be attempting to "reach" or even understand? Their goal is to convert everyone and kill anyone who resists. That sound reasonable?
Or to put it another way, I am no fan of either George Bush or Ahmadinejad, but I think I'd know where I'd rather live - and indeed where I'd be able to write what I am writing.
#36 I think you might find that, historically, the land is Jewish - one might argue with boundaries, but it is historically jewish. But that, in the context of what I was saying, is by the by. There is of course one crucial difference between both sides. Only one follows a religion where adherence is mandatory, tolerance of other religions is unacceptable, equal rights for all is considered unnecessary, Allah prevails over state, Sharia defines the application of the law, women have no rights - and has (misguided) followers who invoke God whilst beheading people, or, as was seen yesterday, shooting their fellow Muslims in cold blood. Oh what a great blessing to be a fundementalist follower of Allah. You can be a gun toting psychopathic maniac and still be well within the bounds of what your mullahs believe to be acceptable behaviour. My point was not about religion per se....just about those who appear to believe their religion is superior to all others, and who use the cover of religion to justify the killing of their own and indeed the destruction of their own places of worship.
From where we sit, its easy to be critical of Israeli policy. Yet just imagine. Shelled from Hezzbollah in the North, shelled and suicide bombed from east, threatened with annihilation by the President of Iran. What, seriously,

42

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 13:29:03

#48 Reading Public: The corridors of power in Washington.

How did they become so infested by these men who offer support for Israel? Is there not enough people within the corridors of power in Wshington that can turn around and say enough is enough and then turn their back on both of these barbaric nations?

43

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 13:32:41

#49, indeed everything we hear about Islam suffering is just a pre-text for a wider Jihad. We are told the current batch of terrorism is due to the invasion of Iraq. Some may be inspired by it but Sept 11th was before then, as were various other Allah inspired killings. Fundementalists will use any "cause" to justify their means - this is sadly a Holy war and if you watch carefully the extreme right of the Christian faith are engaging in moral crusades elsewhere, they only difference is they are killing people by denying them contraception. As it does not involve any bombs or guns for some reason it is acceptable behaviour.

Like you I feel very sorry for those caught up in it, especially the brain washed children on all sides.

44

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 15/06/2007 13:37:03

-- how would any nation react to being surrounded by states who wish to destroy it?

Finns survive and thrive. Iceland is between NATO and Russia. New Caledonia is independent off Australia unlike East Timor. Vietnamese are making a good go of their new found independence. And they won the war. These peoples don't roll tanks through their neighbours. Where is the problem?

45

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 15/06/2007 13:37:48

#51
Totally. It has always troubled me how many in the US have a stated position that is pro life and pro death penalty.
Religious fanatics all around us! And to think, I grew up scared of the Russians!

46

James Donald,

Midlothian 15/06/2007 13:39:14

#38. Zuckerman - "Here Today HBOS Tomorrow -
You sound like a familiar poster with a new name" - as do you Sugarman.

47

Thursday,

15/06/2007 13:41:34

33. sandy

Glad someone noticed

48

JayJay,

Glasgow-ish 15/06/2007 13:46:44

#52
What? Finland is not being threatened by either NATO or the Russians. Finland is not firing rockets at the other side, or engaged in a brutal civil war or run by a mad President hell bent on getting his hands on an atomic bomb. Russia has never said - "we dispute the right of the Finns to exist". Finland is not supported by Syria and Iran in a not so very covert proxy war against NATO...just what point are you trying to make?
You want an analogy. Try South Korea. There is a reason why their border is pretty heavily fortified. They have nutjobs to the North who would roll over them in a minute.
The ordinary Palestinian people are being sorely abused by their own Government (in Hamas), having previously been let down by Fatah, and it just ticks me off when I hear people blaming the Israelis for every sin visited upon the people of Palestine. If Hamas marches Fatah people round the back of a building and shoots them in the head how on earth can that be blamed on Israel? Just when do these people start behaving like a government and not a jumped up bunch of terrorists.

49

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 13:52:09

And so the arguement escalates into another stupid point.

BOTTOM LINE IS THIS:

Israel and Palestine murder babies,toddlers,mothers,fathers,brothers and sisters on a daily basis. Neither side has any respect for life. Neither side is responsible enough to be treated with respect. Neither side can claim to be the innocent party. Both sides are violent racist murderers and both should be ashamed of themselves.

50

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

15/06/2007 13:52:39

#57, like the IRA and Sinn Fein, Hamas has two factions the secular political wing led by the former PM and the military wing. It appears at this moment that the political wing is too scared or is unwilling to stop the killing. The problem is for the armed wing politics is religion, hence the killings are a political means to justify a religious end.

From my understanding the main political leaders of Hamas a secular in their outlook, however what lurks beneath is decidedly based around strict Islamic law. The result is dogma and brainwashing take precedence over reality and rational thought.

51

Tikun,

Nashville, TN 15/06/2007 13:54:22

Media 1
Perhaps you should look up the words 'murder' and 'intent' before you slam 'both sides'.

52

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 15/06/2007 13:57:36

#61 Tikun: You have no leg to stand on here...This nonsense has been going on for far too long and it needs to end.

Both countries are an absolute disgrace with no respect for the value of human life. Mugabe is a saint by comparison!

53

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 15/06/2007 13:57:54

-- I believe one of the principle foundations of USA is freedom of religion.

It's the essential seperation of Church and State.

The Founders were Deists, like the contemporary Robert Burns. But they were very skeptical about the Churches of thier day. In Burns' word of condemnation:

Hypocracy. And they are the worst hypocrits and scum of the Earth. Honest decent social men? - none of them.

And this modern fundamentalist christian movement (tv evangelists?) would appall them more.

54

ruvane,

bermuda 15/06/2007 13:59:59

our currency says in God we trust the Mayflower compact is all about old testament priciples I know you in Scotland dont belive in God but americans do. Your nation is really sick in the head and youve become a second rate society. i cant fathom the incredible left wing perversity in Great Britain.

55

Tikun,

Nashville, TN 15/06/2007 14:00:52

Media 1
Just because you say it, does NOT make it true.
You can rant and rave till your hearts content, ut it still does NOT make it true.

As I said, you should try to learn a little instead of the usual rantings.

But for those who care about reason and hope for a better future, there is some good news.

From Yahoo
Because Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist and signed on to past peace agreements, a boycott by Israel and the International Community of the Palestinian territories in the wake of Hamas's electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank - just to Gaza.

56

Tikun,

Nashville, TN 15/06/2007 14:03:03

Media 1,
Never forget
It takes two to make peace
But only ONE to make war

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A leader of the Hamas militant group told thousands at a rally Friday that Palestinians who negotiated a symbolic peace agreement with Israel are traitors.

In Jerusalem, tens of thousands of Palestinians marked an important day of prayer — the last Friday of the holy month of Ramadan — at a disputed hilltop shrine. Hundreds of worshippers kept from the city by Israeli travel bans performed the prayer at a military checkpoint, kneeling in rows.


In Gaza's Jebaliya refugee camp, about 4,000 supporters of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad protested against the symbolic "Geneva Accord" negotiated by prominent Israelis and Palestinians. The deal is being circulated by mail and displayed in newspapers to build support.


The agreement has neither formal standing nor the backing of the Israeli and Palestinian governments, but its authors hope the 50-page document will be the basis of official negotiations.


Hamas, which along with other militant groups has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombings and other attacks, rejects the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East and opposes any Palestinian efforts to make peace with Israel.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/200...

57

,

15/06/2007 14:40:01
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58

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 15/06/2007 14:48:49

-- Have you by any chance been reading Richard Dawkins The God Delusion?

Me, I'm motivated by Freidrich Nietzsche to dispell all delusions whether of God or Chistianity. As he wrote, when this is done, people will merely cower to materialism or the ararchist-hedonism promoted by this newspaper. Actors will be your leaders. The anarchist-hedonists at the watering hole will always be prey to any organised gangs - usually criminals. Enter Richard Dawkins and his book. Which is more of the same. And a delusion too.

59

ruvane,

bermuda 15/06/2007 15:05:08

this is not a proper debate its a jealous rant agaisnt Israel and America by a sick society of mongrels who should know better and not feel sorry for the miscreant arab the arab has brought on his own problems

60

ruvane,

Bermuda 15/06/2007 15:15:42

if the jewish people are the most intelligent why do all the trash in England support the arabs? without the west the ignorant arab would have never discovered the oil fileds beneath his feet

61

,

15/06/2007 15:25:15
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62

57Nomad,

california 15/06/2007 15:28:12

#3 Listen

In #3 Listen ear writes:

"We must ALL Write to Our MP's and Demand Sanctions on Israel.. Let them send their Squatters back to wgherever they came from."

I think you might want to give that some more thought. Send them back where they came from? Really? Okie dokie, let's do that. Oh, whoops, they are where they came from. Hmmmm, now what? Maybe you mean where they came from recently. That would be Europe. Why are they in Israel now? Could it be the the Europeans tried to kill each and every one of them? Could it be that it was the Europeans that created the State of Israel?

So are you saying that the Jews should be sent back to Europe? Because, as we all know, that's where the modern Israelis came from mostly, Europe. That is, before you tried to exterminate them.

63

ruvane,

Bermuda 15/06/2007 15:32:17

Finney you must be a real frustrated man. I cant waste my time trying to educate a pervert like you but i will say this give 10 jews some ifles and they could take on 100 skunks like you

64

ruvane,

bermuda 15/06/2007 16:21:34

what the hell are you talking about I love scotland I love golf and I know the real scots are great fighters i am responding to the trash like you that is agaisnt my country USA. We saved your ass a couple of times this century and i resent you skunks constantly talking down to my president and what we stand for you wouldnt last 2 days in the near east and your sympathy for the arab is misplaced as well

65

,

15/06/2007 16:27:38
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66

Barbara Bush,

15/06/2007 16:37:36

#65 ruvane, bermuda

"our currency says in God we trust the Mayflower compact is all about old testament priciples I know you in Scotland dont belive in God but americans do"

Strange, I thought Bermuda was a British overseas territory and its banknotes had Queen Elizabeth on them.
Then again, you may be an american citizen, hiding in Bermuda to escape the eventual draft that silly boy of mine is going to have to introduce to raise enough troops to sort out the debacle he started in Iraq. His daddy did warn him, but would he listen.

67

57Nomad,

california 15/06/2007 16:45:03

#63 Yok

This is what Yok said about religion and America:

"The Founders were Deists, like the contemporary Robert Burns. But they were very skeptical about the Churches of thier day. -- I believe one of the principle foundations of USA is freedom of religion.
It's the essential seperation of Church and State."


This is what George Washington said about religion and America

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States ... Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency."

68

ruvane,

Bermuda 15/06/2007 17:11:02

you make a good point regarding the USA isolationism and i am very proud of the stand england made all alone agaisnt the germans you are a brave people but dont give me the crap about the jewish lobby can pou acknowledge that if there is one group that has been a victim it has been the jewish people i am not jewish but i am sympathethic to their situation amd their lobby is based on free speech and is often pitted agasint the oil lobby and the miscreant Arab I also react to comments like the one from barbra bush can you explain those comments?

69

Bryan McC,

Ayrshire 15/06/2007 17:17:18

I suppose the only good thing about all of this is that Hamas & Fatah are so busy fighting each other it leaves less time for them to blow up Israelis...

Shalom

70

Tikun,

Nashville, TN 15/06/2007 17:20:15

Niadh,
There are less than 5 million Jews in the US out of 300 million people. Do you really fall prey to the lie that US policy is dominated by this small group?

How about the fact that we have 30-50 million Evangelical Christians for whom Israel is important?
How about the milllions and millions of Americans who believe that it is important for us to support the only democracy in a sea of religious totalitarin dictatorships?

Nah, lets blame it on the Jewish lobby, thats easier.

71

ruvane,

Bermuda 15/06/2007 17:28:16

here is the whole problem you have to return to 1977 - 1982 the USa should have Never given recognition to Arafart and his gang. by doing this theUSA has created a mess that it can never rectify its a shame because i remember many people pleading not to make this diplomatic move. We had that jerk off carter for a president and that idiot negro Andrew Young for us at the UN

72

Buckskins,

15/06/2007 18:24:03

You can be sure about one thing. IT'S THE YANKS FAULT.

73

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 15/06/2007 18:30:56

#65 RUVANE
That's a bit rich comin' from the country that sees it as its right to bomb smaller countries back to the stone age..........and incidentally, Scotland is part of the set-up that represents the us's best allies in the world.
If that's how you speak of yer friends, heaven help those that don't agree with the great bastion of liberty in the world....Aye Right !!
Remember, YOU are the guys who are so brave that you don't travel anywhere in the world any longer because it's too dangerous.....on a recent visit to the states I was confronted by numerous wearers of the t-shirt with the US flag emblazoned with the words "these colors don't run"............Oh Yeah !...........even if that WAS true, they've nowhere to run from, 'cos you Bush-voting cretins are too frightened to leave home......(but then again, the rest of us get the benefit of that deal, don't we !!)

74

57Nomad,

california 15/06/2007 18:37:21

#83 Niadh

Niadh said:

"Also can you consider how much quicker and simpler it would have gone if the US had got involved at the start rather than waiting 3 years on both occasions. How many lives would have been saved both on the battlefields, cities, town and most of all death camps?"

Are you trying to pin the death camps on the US? Get real. While you are trying to get real also remember that we are being roundly criticized for removing the dictator Hussein. So, what do you people want? Jump in quickly when your ox is being gored, stay away when it's someone else's?

75

ruvane,

bermuda 15/06/2007 19:02:27

Hamish Riley what a great name...I am tired of all this crap have a nice weekend everyone

76

mike - across the pond,

niadah.... a few FACTS... 15/06/2007 19:21:04

1) it is becoming more and more widely acknowledged that neither axis nor allies won WW1... it was the influenza epidemic of 1918... please look it up, BEFORE you continue spewing ignorance...

2) I could be mistaken but by the time the US put any significant numbers on the ground in europe (late 1918), the ottomans were out... as were the russians, so... that would mean that the brits, french, (and I believe italians) had won in that theatre....

3) as far as lamenting the delay of US involvement in the last century... would you be lamenting the US involvement in the current global war on terror... and the rest of the world lagging behind.... as well? what way do you want it pal... you want to moan about us lagging or you want to moan about us being in front... you cant have it both ways...

77

57Nomad,

california 15/06/2007 19:32:10

#90 Hamish

In # 90 Hamish says:

"Remember, YOU are the guys who are so brave that you don't travel anywhere in the world any longer because it's too dangerous"

Jeeeze Louise! Well, we're in Iraq. That's not too dangerous for us. As for the numbers, about 30 million Americans travel out of the US every year. That's about 10% of the population and more people than live in most European countries. We're not the kind of people who frighten easily.

Also you might want to consider that we travel extensively within the US. So what? You might ask. Here's the deal. If I leave my home in San Diego and traveled east to Maine, it is a trip of about 3,000 miles and I would never leave the US. If you traveled 3000 east you'd nearly be in Asia.

78

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 15/06/2007 20:24:15

-- I could be mistaken but by the time the US put any significant numbers on the ground in europe (late 1918), the ottomans were out... as were the russians, so... that would mean that the brits, french, (and I believe italians) had won in that theatre....

Winston Churchill desired to purposefully have the LUSITANIA sunk and so bring America into the conflict on the side of Britain. This would be achieved by the fact that American citizens regularly crossed the Atlantic on the LUSITANIA and in the event of her destruction by a U Boat , some of them were bound to perish, thereby inflaming American opinion, resulting in America subsequently declaring war on Germany. .

Churchill cancels the Luistania’s destroyer escourt, By 11.00 on Thursday May 6th, the Admiralty in London knew of the sinking of the CANDIDATE, though they didn't see fit to inform the Naval base at Queenstown, Ireland, for a further 24 hours. By 03.40 on Friday, May 7th, they also knew the fate of the CENTURION. If one considers Churchill's penchant for intrigues, he was certainly behind this dastardly plan to fulfilment. He would then have been directly responsible for the deaths of 1,201 men, women and children.

79

sandy,

USA 16/06/2007 20:12:24

#97--Niadh---""for instance the Israeli bombing of Lebanon last year. the Lebanese gov't had no involvement in the cause but they got the stick w/the nail over the head""
<i disagree!...Lebanon had a great deal to do w/that war, in-that they allowed Hezbollah to set up shop & do their killing of Israelis from there, therefore, they were very complicit....Lebanese gov't has seen the light & realized they must rid their country of these terrorists & are doing just that as we post!!!.....the Lebanese people are demanding it!!....i don't think Iran is quite finished there tho...i believe Iran will unleash Hezbollah & try to unseat the Lebanese gov't, just as Hamas has taken over Gaza...

80

mike - across the pond,

ah hamish... 18/06/2007 15:17:16

no those colors dont run...

except towards the disasters.... with aid falling out of our pockets....

as far as being afraid to leave our country... well not quite... we've tightened our boarders... and it's long overdue

as far as cutting and running, we re-elected bush... because a majority of americans KNOW the rent we must pay on the space we occupy... which is why we get eaten alive by the nit-picking gnats who want to make us to be something less than we honestly TRY to be... screaming OIL whenever someone mentions Iraq (correct me if I am wrong here... but I dont believe that ANY Iraqi oil has ended up in US ports)... and ZIONIST whenever the cowardly terrorists in palestine get their tails whipped by Israel...


 

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