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Conflict of beliefs



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Published Date: 10 November 2008
Brian Fitzpatrick's sophistry (Government & Public Affairs, 6 November) may afford him and other progressive Catholics some peace of mind in supporting political parties or candidates whose ethos is increasingly anti-Christian and anti-life.
One might have had a speck of sympathy for his Labour affiliation were he to have indicated that its objective was to overthrow immoral policies from within. But no, the whole tenor of his article is to disparage those who simply ask: Can one support a party whose policies are increasingly secular-humanist and opposed to the law of God? Where does one draw the line? Would Mr Fitzpatrick employ such sophistry in defence of a member of a party which legislated for the termination of the lives of unwanted members of ethnic minorities?

A S FRASER

Aird Bernisdale
Portree, Isle of Skye





The full article contains 140 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 November 2008 9:21 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 00:41:03
'Would Mr Fitzpatrick employ such sophistry in defence of a member of a party which legislated for the termination of the lives of unwanted members of ethnic minorities?'

He would not need to do so. Whatever God's views are on the matter, there are secular legal and ethical objections to killing people for such reasons.
2

Cynicus in Exile,

10/11/2008 00:41:11
Enoch Powell famously remarked that in pursuit of political power the Tory party would not only kill its own grandmother but, if necessary, cook and eat her as well. Does his stricture now also apply to New Labour or merely to Mr Fitzpatrick?
3

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 00:50:47
In what particular biblical passages is the killing of unwanted members of ethnic minorities (or majorities? is it acceptable to kill unwanted members of ethnic majorities?) specifically condemned?
4

James F,

East Ayr 10/11/2008 00:51:57
#1 Hugh,

"there are secular legal and ethical objections to killing people for such reasons." We all knew that.

A S Fraser is suggesting that the life of an embryo is morally equivalent to the life of an unwanted "ethnic". You haven't really offered an opinion.
5

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 09:04:06
In what particular biblical passages is the killing of unwanted members of ethnic minorities (or majorities? is it acceptable to kill unwanted members of ethnic majorities?) specifically condemned?

Morning Hugh, I hope I’m not misinterpreting your question “In what particular biblical passages …” by suggesting Jn 13:34 – To love one another as I have loved you.
6

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 10/11/2008 09:40:09
A S Fraser should tell us what it he sees that is 'anti-Christian' and what, specifically, is that is wrong with 'secular-humanist' policies?
7

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 10:25:37
4 James F,

'A S Fraser is suggesting that the life of an embryo is morally equivalent to the life of an unwanted "ethnic". You haven't really offered an opinion.'

On such matters, I have offered an opinion on various occasions.

It is false to say that there is one Biblical view on the matter. People draw dubious inferences from particular scattered texts. (See, for instance, chapter 6 of From the Womb to the Tomb: Issues in Medical Ethics by McLachlan and Swales.) Whether or not abortion is morally justifiable or not on particular occasions, there are significant moral differences between abortion and murder. Furthermore, whether or not abortion and murder and morally equivalent, there are good reasons for making a legal difference between then. Legal distinctions need not always mirror moral ones.

Here are some other relevant references.

‘As sure as eggs is eggs’ The Scotsman 17 Jun 2006

‘Frozen Embryos Dilemma’ The Sunday Post, 12 March 2006

'OK, cardinal, so let’s talk about abortion' The Scotsman…16th July 2007

‘When to continue a pregnancy or end it is no business of state’. Scotsman, 21st May, 2008.

8

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 10:43:13
#5 Maximus,

'Morning Hugh, I hope I’m not misinterpreting your question “In what particular biblical passages …” by suggesting Jn 13:34 – To love one another as I have loved you.'

Perhaps I misinterpreted the letter and its context. My point is that such a text has no tint of political correctness. (One could, perhaps find texts that sound to us highly dubious as when one or other non-Jewish group of people is smitten for some evil they or their fathers did.) Furthermore, it sheds no light on the question of the moral status of the embryo. What counts as another person? For some people that is the central issue in the debate. We should love our neighbours as ourselves but it is far from manifest that Christ wanted to be interpreted as meaning that embryos were our neighbours. He should have said so if that was His point.

How could we love Christopher(Superman)Reeve as we love ourselves and yet deny him the chance to walk again by thwarting scientific research on human embryos?

Whether or not one is a theist or an atheist, there are various different views which could, quite reasonably, be taken with regard to both the ethics and the desirable legal status of abortion and research on human embryos.
9

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 11:12:05
Hugh – this could get deep. Christian teaching, specifically Catholic teaching, as you will know displays an interconnectedness ... a bit like the ‘six degrees of separation’ game I like to play. That is to say I can link creation to marriage to Christ to the Eucharist to suffering, and so on. The interpretation of the Bible must be conducted with an appreciation of the whole of Scripture – i.e. don’t just take one passage and treat that as the motto by which to live your life.

In respect of the status of the embryo, you must also consider that science wasn’t what it is today. As such you are unlikely to see anything on Scripture or the writings of the Fathers of the Church which talk about gravity, bosons, embryos or dinosaurs (I’m being flippant here).

However what you do see is a respect for life. The Bible is implicit in its use of creation from God, man created in His image, and explicit when stating I knitred you in your mother’s womb, before the dawn of time I knew you and so on. The Fathers of the Church were explicit in their condemnation of abortion, despite debates about ‘ensoulment’.

There is a respect for all stages of life within Christianity (especially Catholicism as they also condemn contraception). This is backed up by scientific research – an embryo is a stage of human development – it is human! A life that is distinct from its mother and father, and yet dependent on its mother (just as it will be after birth for some years).

The other side the coin is suffering. Christopher Reeves and others like him, and the world in general, had/have lost the meaning of suffering. Again, Christianity is the only religion to believe in a suffering ‘messiah’ – we believe that though our suffering we are partaking in His suffering, and therefore it is an honour. This I admit is a difficult message, but it also does not deny the one who is suffering care and comfort. The Catholic heritage of hospices is proof of this.

Care and comfort however mus
10

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 11:12:21
Care and comfort however must not come at the expense of an innocent life.

I hope this helps. Also read up on the TOTB stuff I recommended in an earlier blog (www.linacre.org may also help from a bio ethics perspective).
11

truthsleuth,

10/11/2008 11:36:43
What the bible says depends upon who is reading it
When they read it
and what personal gain THEY get from their translation of it.

Ah well
Christians and their 'turn the other cheek'

most o them suffer from a stiff neck it seems.
12

Cynicus in Exile,

10/11/2008 11:53:13
"Christians and their 'turn the other cheek'

most o them suffer from a stiff neck it seems."-truthsleuth,10/11/2008 11:36:43

Yesterday's fisticuffs between Orthodox and Armenian monks in Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre does not refute your stiff- neck hypothesis. These Christians. How they love one another.
13

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 12:34:56
9 Maximus, Roberton
'However what you do see is a respect for life.'

I disagree although I can appreciate your position. There is, I think, something more like a respect for persons and for goodness rather than a respect for life as such. After all, our own human lives and even those of others should be sacrificed in some circumstances. Christ could have saved His own life but did not do so, so too could many of the celebrated martyrs.

In my view, the science of the matter is, ethically, utterly irrelevant. It is not merely people who have currently living human bodies to whom we have moral duties. For instance, people who's bodies are now dead are due moral consideration as are people who's bodies are not born or even conceived yet. The difficult, probably unanswerable questions are about the precise content and strength of such moral duties. They are not the same duties that, say, I have towards my friends and family.

14

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 12:49:11
Hugh, "Respect for life ..." Yes .. eternal life. This is how Catholicism sees it. Depeding on what you believe Christ did save his own life by fulfilling Scripture.

I would disagree about science being ethically irrelevant. True science supports what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years - it provides a true anthropology of the human person.

I would agree those who are unborn and have died are due moral consideration, but in all cases, even without the insiration of faith, one's reason should be guided toward the protection of life.

It is truely an interesting subject, one I believe, in accrodance with my faith, must be coherent and pointed toward an eternal life.
15

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 13:23:18
#14 Maximus, Roberton
'It is truely an interesting subject, one I believe, in accrodance with my faith, must be coherent and pointed toward an eternal life'

I do not disagree with this. However, at no point in the gospels or even in the Bible in its entirety is the question of whether or when an embryo is due the moral status of a person directly addressed. Hence, there is room for much variation within Christian thought about the ethics of abortion and, a fortiori about its appropriate legal position. There is no single characteristically Christian view of the matter.

Even within the specific history of Roman Catholicism, there is not a sole traditional view. What is thought of as traditional orthodoxy now, was not always the accepted view. As, Professor Robin Gill convincingly argues, it is false to imagine that the Roman Catholic Church has always maintained that from conception embryos have souls and are due the same respect as normal mature persons. (See ‘The Human Embryo in the Christian Tradition’, The Journal of Medical Ethics, 2005, vol. 31, pp. 710-714)

16

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 13:42:47
“As, Professor Robin Gill convincingly argues, it is false to imagine that the Roman Catholic Church has always maintained that from conception embryos have souls and are due the same respect as normal mature persons”

With due respect to Prof Robin Gill he starting point is incorrect. The position of the Catholic Church on abortion has never been argued from the perspective of embryo + soul = human person, it has always been embryo = human person. Hence my reference to the Augustinian debate about ‘ensoulment’. Despite this debate the Church maintained that abortion was wrong because it was understood that God had created that life, and as such was sacred. This is Biblical.
17

Maximus,

Roberton 10/11/2008 13:50:46
Hugh, you may find this useful http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp
18

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 10/11/2008 14:55:21
#17

'Hugh, you may find this useful http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp'

Many thanks, Maximus.

 

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