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We've had U-turn on global warming: now let's have one on fuel tax, Gordon



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Surprise, surprise. After months of threatening us with environmental Armageddon, scientists are now saying global warming may be put on hold for ten years. Gordon Brown's U-turn technique has even spread to the science lobby. It must be time now for people such as Al Gore and the green lobby to accept the scientific claim from eminent international experts that global warming is, indeed, part of the climate cycles that the earth has been through many times and will again.
Could it be that our listening Prime Minister and his chums at Westminster will U-turn again and park the policies of crucifying drivers by huge taxes on fuel to save the planet while hammering the UK way of life? Go on, Gordon, give us leadership by
cutting fuel tax to help restore the British economy and provide further help for the citizens you attacked in the 10p tax rate Budget fiasco. Has he the courage? I very much doubt it.

IAIN J McCONNELL

Gifford

East Lothian


While I believe, like George K McMillan (Letters, 7 May), that global warming is not the result of human action, we cannot get away from the fact we must find alternative energy sources and reduce our usage of the world's natural non-renewable resources.

In 1973, if memory serves, the cost of oil rocketed and our politicians said we must never again leave ourselves at the mercy of such occurrences, nor so dependent on overseas supplies. Needless to say, nothing was done about it.

Now, we are here again and paying the price for our elected representatives' neglect. Action is needed but not wind farms – we need a planned policy where we do not take one action that leads to disaster for others through ill-conceived initiatives.

IAN ROSS

Eden Lane

Edinburgh


Bob Graham (Letters, 1 May) appears to be blissfully unaware that the energy crisis and climate change are the consequences of the consumption of the bulk of the planet's reserves of fossil fuels. These were deposited over a period of millions of years during the Carboniferous Age, but we have succeeded in converting a large proportion into carbon dioxide and water in two-and-a -half centuries.

The only way of addressing this crisis is to abandon the large-scale combustion of fossil fuels for energy production in favour of renewable sources of energy, together with abandoning the notion that human progress is identical with a Malthusian population explosion and never-ending economic expansion. Unfortunately, this perception is not acceptable either to exploitative entrepreneurs or politicians, who may know nothing about the environmental importance of the carbon cycle on which all life depends.



(DR) DAVID PURVES

Strathalmond Road

Edinburgh


Perhaps the withdrawal of Shell from the 350 wind turbine scheme in the Thames estuary and the rejection of the apocalyptic plans for Lewis may be catalysts for a reality check on wind power.

Wind turbines will do nothing to mitigate against climate change. Even the British Wind Energy Association does not attempt to refute calculations that show that, even if all Britain's renewables targets are met, the savings in global emissions will be less than 0.0004 per cent, a total which would be eclipsed in less than seven days by increases from China and India.

J MARK GIBSON

Dalmellington

Ayrshire






The full article contains 566 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 May 2008 8:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 01:04:38
The first letter says it all.

Global warming, climate change, call it what you will... ...is a myth. Why did we ever listen to them? I didn't and I'm glad I didn't.
2

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 05:26:23
Check out the following article if you are interested in how Al Gore and his buddies manipulate data to "prove" their case for global warming:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/02/a_tale_of_two_thermometers/
3

Unimpressed one,

09/05/2008 08:11:39
Out of the above letters, note how only the 'well educated' doctor supports the myth. This reinforces my view that academic credentials are not related to common sense or intelligence.
4

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 08:21:07
Whilst I personally am very concerned with the impending crisis over oil and gas which will tip us into perpetual recession ... what fills me with dread is the thought of all the global warming evangelists jumping off the sinking ship of global warming and climbing on board the "oil is running out" life-raft.

The truth is that the huge publicity R&D machine behind global warming needs to find another crisis to justify its own existence, they care almost nothing for the truth, they simply exist to frighten the public into giving them huge amounts of money to "research" yet another failed technology and the last thing we need if we are to really deal with the end of oil is all the lies and deceit of those guys.
5

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 08:31:40
IAIN J McCONNELL claims,

"scientists are now saying global warming may be put on hold for ten years"

Not really. Mr McConnell is presumably referring to one paper (Keenleyside et al, Nature, Vol 453, 1 May 2008) by a group of German scientists, the accompanying press release of which states,

"The improved predictions suggest that global warming will weaken slightly during the following 10 years."

The authors also make it very clear that their predictions in no way contradict the basic tenets of anthropogenic global warming. Their predictions suggest that, because of changes in ocean currents, specifically the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (responsible for the Gulf stream), rather more of the extra heat that the Earth's atmosphere is absorbing (because of anthropogenic greenhouse gases) will end up in the oceans than otherwise. Thus the land surface and atmosphere may not warm up as much as they would otherwise.

This paper does not contradict and has no implications for the reality of anthropogenic global warming. Mr McConnel's suggestion that this paper shows that "global warming is, indeed, part of [natural] climate cycles" is just specious wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

It follows that the paper also has no implications concerning the need to conserve fuels stocks and to reduce the amount of CO2 we chuck into the atmosphere.

6

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 08:36:50
Slioch,

There are always those who just will not accept the facts. Global warming stopped in 1998, the world's oceans have been cooling, the earth wasn't alone in having warming toward the end of the 20th century, Mars also showed warming.

You are like suburban holiday makers who've never seen the tide coming in hysterically telling everyone the great flood is coming.

And now the tide has stopped, and eventually as everyone laughing at you knows, the tide will go out!
7

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 09:07:25
Slioch is right. The rest of you are idiots.
8

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 09:35:30
#2 Guga II

The article to which you link, by Steve Goddard, starts with a graph showing the HADCRU global temperature series from 1850 to the present. ALL the points on this graph EXCEPT THE LAST are annual global temperature anomalies. What Goddard does not make clear is that the last point, which takes a sudden dive downwards, is NOT an annual temperature anomaly at all - it is merely generated by the monthly temperature anomalies in 2008 thus far.

Yet Goddard uses that inadmissible data to claim,"... the earth is not much warmer now than it was than it was in 1878 or 1941." He is comparing annual with monthly data, which is absurd. Or, more to the point, blatantly dishonest.

You clearly don't bother to examine what you read, Guga. If it says what you want to believe then you believe it, and there is an endless supply of charlatans out there to keep you happy in your delusions. Meanwhile, if something comes along that you don't want to believe, then however well based and researched the evidence, then you simply reject it as "junk science".
9

Rudi Hucker,

Uddingston 09/05/2008 09:37:00
Err...Burma, anyone?
10

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 09/05/2008 09:39:06
David Purves states : "the energy crisis and climate change are the consequences of the consumption of the bulk of the planet's reserves of fossil fuels."
And just where does he get this gem of misinformation from ?
We are taking more oil and gas out of the ground than ever and still have hundreds of years of reserves.
Climate is doing what it has always done - changed !!

We still seem to have a few denialists who clearly fell for the spiel of Al Gore et al who have been so greenwashed that nothing will make them see the truth.
Step forward "Slioch" !
My goodness - up popped Fred to give me my morning laugh.
While there is no doubt we need to clean up our act with waste disposal etc, it is time that the world accepted that climate changes are entirely natural and learned to live with it.
11

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 09:45:02
Yes I admit I'm an idiot - an idiot for ever giving any credence to those crying wolf when I had never seen sight nor sound of a wolf myself.

I wasn't fooled by WMD nor by the millennium bug, but no one's perfect - yep I was fooled by global warming till I went and looked at the facts.

... and what do those facts amount to? One paper published a very long time ago SUGGESTING a link between CO2 and warming ... a few decades of well within the natural variation in world temperature so small none of us can discern it from the normal regional climatic variation

Oh .... and about a billion words of drivel telling us how bad the catastrophic warming will be, in blatant disregard to the historical fact that periods of warmth have been good for civilisation and periods of cold are normally blamed for turmoil.

And all this hysteria fed by a few very well paid consultants in their 4x4s and Unversity Profs empire building their new “climate science” departments at the tax-payers expense.

Yes we were all idiots to let it go this far!
12

Upbeat,

09/05/2008 09:53:38
10 Nabodican

You attempted to respond to my challenging question the other day. You missed the point then , and still do not see the problem.

I asked where the planet has compensated for all the carbon released in the past 200 years. You deplored the burning of fossil fuels. I asked how the planet has responded to the cutting of the rainforest. You said you deplored the cutting of the rain forest. I asked how the planet has compensated for the fact that huge areas of its surface have been cleared to make way for agriculture and other concrete developements. You had no response to this.

The answer to all these questions are contained in the observations made by scentists and meteorologists over the past 150 years. In the past 20 years the data and computerised analytical techniques employed have acheived staggering levels of accuracy. The planet has been compensating all along ..the compensation is called climate change.

Last question : If mankind exploited and burnt the fossil fuel...who caused the resultant change to the climate?
13

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 09:57:31
#6 Isonomia

So, according to you:

"Global warming stopped in 1998" (it didn't, but let that rest for now)

And also, "the earth wasn't alone in having warming toward the end of the 20th century, Mars also showed warming."

Trouble is "In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun." (see: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

So, let's see if I've got this right as far as the oracle Isonomia is concerned:

1. Mars and Earth warming shows that both warmings are caused by the sun.
2. Earth is now cooling.
3. Mars is still warming.

Does anything strike you as just a teeny weeny bit astray in your thinking there Isonomia? Talk about being hoist by your own petard!
14

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 10:05:01
Slioch,

as you well know, according to very basic scientific principles, it is not up to the sceptic to disprove the theory of manmade global warming, it is up to those asserting a link.

I merely said that both mars and the world showed warming at the end of the 20th century. This simply shows that the warming of the earth was not unusual as far as the solar system goes, so therefore there is no need for rediculous new theories to explain this period of warming.

However, you seem to imply that the recent cooling of the earth is unusual (it isn't but I want to show how absurd you are being) ... as such the logical conclusion is taht we have to explain the exceptional cooling of the earth after 1998, not the normal (solar system wise) warming up to 1998.
15

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 10:24:41
#8 Slioch.

It doesn't matter what way you look at it, manipulating figures to prove a point is the behaviour of liars and charlatans. The more so when such manipulation is for the purpose of direct or indirect personal gain. Al Gore and his buddies are charlatans and liars, and anyone who falls for their junk science is either a fool, or easily manipulated, like the figures.
16

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 10:26:20
#10 nabodican,

=>"where does he get this gem of misinformation from ?
We are taking more oil and gas out of the ground than ever and still have hundreds of years of reserves."

There is an often quoted statistic that there is enough fossil fuel for hundreds of years. That is true if you count all the fossil fuel and ignore the energy cost of extracting the fuel. In fact, huge amounts of fossil fuel such as oil-shale take more energy to extract and distribute than is available in the fuel.

Also transportation requires a particular specification of fossil fuel which is energy dense and liquid. Whilst it is possible to convert coal to oil for transport, the process is very energy inefficient and therefore the cost of the oil is much much higher than the cost of the coal used to produce it.

In addition there are a number of reports of massive over-reporting of oil-stocks in the major oil producers in the middle east. (Which may itself be a lie to boost oil prices, but it is just as likely the suggestion it is a lie is also a lie spread to prevent moves to reduce consumption)

Basically the facts are these:-

1. A vast amount (I think the majority) of the fossil fuel stocks are not viable as fuel.

2. There is huge uncertainty as to the real level of stocks.

3. Whilst we can use coal to replace oil that will run out in a few decades in most oil fields (based on those unreliable statistics I did the calculation I came to a figure of around 60 years supply of fossil fuel worldwide. And I'd put uncertainty of perhaps -25% + 100%)

4. Whilst stocks may exist for many decades to come, the "crisis" doesn't wait till they run out but comes when demand starts to outstrip supply. At that point we will see a sharp rise in oil prices, global stagnation of the world economy, financial turmoil (as monetary constrained economies become oil-constrained and normal fiscal measures fail to work).

... and don't get me wrong, the "crisis" we are seeing now isn't a
17

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 10:26:58
#14 Isonomia

Well, if you can't see how idiotic you are being Isonomia, then that is even more revealing.

As for times of Earth's cooling being unusual: of course they are not. The HADCRU graph, to which I've already linked this morning shows significant cooling between 1880 and 1910 and between 1941 and 1955. It does not show any from 1998-2007: that is simply a matter of mathematics: plotting the temperatures and finding the best-fit straight line to that data. That best fit line has a positive slope (whether one uses HADCRU or NASA GISS). Hint: a positive slope means its getting warmer. See:
http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/t1998.jpg
18

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 10:41:19
#15 Guga II

"manipulating figures to prove a point is the behaviour of liars and charlatans"

I agree with you. That is what Steve Goddard was trying to do.

As for Al Gore, he is politician, not a scientist or statistician, and with respect to global warming acts rather like a journalist or evangelist. I've not read any of his work or watched his film, so shouldn't really comment, but as far as I'm aware he is not involved in actual data manipulation (either honest or dishonest) at all.
19

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 10:45:27
#Slioch, have you ever in your life ever measured a temperature to better than 1C let alone 0.1C (the typical accuracy of good laboratory equipment) let alone the 0.01C the global warming evangelists claim for accuracy in worldwide measurements taken in places subject to the problems of sunshine heating the box in which the thermometer is kept, even spiders invading the box and literally warming the temperature due to their "sex antics".

If you want to believe the temperature have been warming since the highest recorded figure in 1998 ... then I'm all in favour of letter people follow whatever religion believe in whatever nonsense they like, so long as they don't foist their religion on the rest of us, or expect us to pay for their folly!
20

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 10:52:46
Slioch @ #5:

Adding loads of complicated and scientific sounding words around the phrases "climate change" and "global warming" doesn't make either of them actually happen you know.

They have been going on about global warming since the mid to late 1980s---ie. for nearly 20 years. If it was actually happening, we would see evidence of it by now. And I mean hard evidence that WE would experience HERE.

The weather would be vastly different from that of 20 years ago. It is not.
The major deserts of the world would have changed shape beyond recognition and probably expanded significantly. They have not.
Tropical fruit such as bananas and pineapples would be growing in mainland Europe. They are not.

All the hard evidence points to the fact that nothing much has really changed. Do we have to wait yet another 20 years before people finally drop this rubbish?

Oh yes, Armageddon is coming! (Well maybe in 20 years time... No, 40 years time... No, 45 years time... No, definately in 50 years time... Oh no, we really meant 65 years time...)

Just drop all this cr4p and stop boring us.
21

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 11:22:20
# 19 Isonomia

Mathematics is not religion, Isonomia. Fortunately, mathematics is immune from the delusions and the heartache and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to and which help give rise to religious beliefs in some. True, the mathematical results are only as good (or bad) as the data upon which they are based, but you have used that data yourself:

And so I'm surprised at your sudden distrust in the accuracy of temperature measurements. It was you, after all who urged us continually earlier this year to study the graph from Lenzie, see:

http://www.lenzie.org.uk/scam.php

which made claims such as "Global temperatures peaked in February 1998 at 0.75°C and with February coming in at 0.194°C ...", which latter temperature is an order of magnitude more accurate than what you now say the "global warming evangelists claim for accuracy".

Incidentally, I'm surprised to see this graph has not been updated. Could this possibly be because the latest monthly data are an embarrassment to it, and you? March has "come in" at +0.430C, indicating, (though it's still too early to be sure from that source alone), that the dip in January was just what I and others said it was at the time: a temporary cooling due to a La Nina event.

It seems to me that when you find it useful to use such data (precise temperatures) you do so, as in the graph. When you don't you not only ignore it, but you actually try to rubbish it.
22

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 11:22:47
#1, > Global warming, climate change, call it what you will... ...is a myth. Why did we ever listen to them? I didn't and I'm glad I didn't. <

My view too.
23

Jock Stewart,

Dalgety Bay 09/05/2008 11:25:00
Before I make my point I must state that I do not beleive in Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW), the statistics do not tally with the evidence and there are too many unknowns for a convincing case to be made.

However, loathe as I am to agree with Slioch, the case against AGW also cannot be made on the basis of a few years cooling. We require a longer term period of cooling before we can conclusively exclude Man's activities from the equation.

My point is, this must be separated from the fuel crisis which must again be separated from the basic laws of supply and demand. There is no shortage of raw material, there are vast untapped resources throught the world which can continue to supply us for many years to come. The talk of peak-oil has been the same for decades now and still there has been no end in sight.

What is occurring is that the focus of consumption has shifted from a largely consumerist Western world to the productive East. India and China are now developing a demand for fuel that is surpassing that of the West.

Our choices are simple, do we prefer cheap inexplicably large plasma televisions, or do we prefer to drive our cars and continue our obsession with cheap domestic transport? The oil producing nations are quite happy either way. The real issue here is whether the West maintains power by funding Russia and the OPEC countries or whether we allow the flow of wealth to go via an intermediate state i.e. from us to India/China then to the oil producers. That is the shape of the new world order and one which will have socio-economic effects that could fundamentally change the way we live.

In the West we do not like the idea of being told that we cannot do something, historically we fight against that. Therefore, we will not be told "The artificially limited supply of oil is better utilised producing stuff in the East" because we will rebel, that is our nature. Instead we will be told "Oil is running out, that is immutable, so we bet
24

Jock Stewart,

Dalgety Bay 09/05/2008 11:27:18
so we better find other ways of doing it.". That is much more palatable to our aggressive, selfish society. Along with that we will wring our hands over our waste, pollution and the plight of some feckless animal (elephant/whale/panda/polar bear etc). Overall the net effect will be exactly the same.
25

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 12:36:25
#23 Jock >>>"Our choices are simple, do we prefer cheap inexplicably large plasma televisions, or do we prefer to drive our cars and continue our obsession with cheap domestic transport? The oil producing nations are quite happy either way."

Jock, the biggest lie of Global warming is that "we have a choice" about energy. The simple fact is that there is only so much fossil fuel that can be enerconically extracted from the earth and when that runs out all future generations will be without oil ... just as previous generations were without oil, coal etc.

The simple economics of human nature means that we will continue to consume as much energy as we can make available and will oust from power any government that tries to stop us consuming more and more energy.

That is until .... the cost of oil increases the "cost of living" to ensure there is just enough people to live within the available energy supply. Because when the cost of living is too high .... people die!

Fossil fuels gave us a couple of centuries where we could consume far more energy than any of us could grow, in that time we've seen a population explosion almost literally fed by fossil fuel, and now we are approaching the time when our fossil fueled agriculture will not have the fertilisers, pesticides, to harvest crops to sustain anything like the current world population even at starvation levels, let alone give us the choice about whether to drive 10 miles to one supermarket or 20 miles to another, and people like Slioch are still spreading the lie that we have a "choice".

Like a roller coaster, once you're at the top, there ain't much way to go but down, and you can:

1. pretend you are not at the top like Slioch.

2. Look with dread at the challenges of the post-oil world

3. Or enjoy the ride!
26

Jed Stewart,

Kinross 09/05/2008 13:04:50
Good man Jock, stick it too the man!

Fred Bloggs? Clearly you are a numpty.

Slioch? Give up whinging and actually do something for the planet if you believe in MMGW. Don't know how you folks sleep at night knowing that YOU are personally responsible for the World coming to an end.
27

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 13:48:56
#25 Isonomia

"people like Slioch are still spreading the lie that we have a "choice"

I don't know where you picked up that particular delusion from Isonomia: it is certainly from nothing I have ever said. I'm not even sure to which possible "choice" you are referring, but if you are claiming that there aren't enough fossil fuels left to cause further damage then that is not correct.

For information: I broadly agree with your post #16, and have been saying much the same for a very long time.

As for #26 Jed: I already do so, and have also been doing so for a very long time.
28

Isonomia,

Lenzie 09/05/2008 15:18:12
#27 Slioch,

the difference between you an me is that whereas we may both have umbrellas that says: "stop climate change" I carry one that has been repaired 3-4 times because I'm not throwing away a good umbrella just because it says something stupid.

You on the other hand probably will buy anything that says: "stop climate change" because you no doubt think it looks trendy ... until you find another cause celeb to back and then you'll throw all that rubbish in the bin!
29

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 09/05/2008 17:26:58
#28 Isonomia

I rather think there may be more profound differences than that, but I will pass over such matters in silence.

As for being trendy, I made my first public statement on global warming in November 1986, saying, "we probably cannot afford to rely on fossil fuels for very much longer, perhaps a few decades". And I warned about the need to use fossil fuels wisely, because of their finite nature, much earlier than that. I'm in this for the long haul.

And as far as saying "stop climate change" is concerned, I certainly do not say that.

I think oceanographer Wally Broecker put it rather well when he said, "climate is a wild beast, and we are poking it with sticks." The cataclysmic climatic upheavals during the ice ages should convince anyone that the climate can be a wild beast, albeit our civilisation has arisen during the last 10,000 years or so of relative climatic stability. The sticks we are poking it with are the tens of billions of tons of greenhouse gases that we are chucking into the atmosphere every year along with the widespread destruction of forests. That sort of poking with sticks has not happened to our climate before for many tens of millions of years. By perturbing the atmosphere we risk jeopardising the next ten or twenty thousand years that orbital considerations tell us would otherwise be relatively stable and benign, like the last 10,000 years.

So I don't say "stop climate change", I say, "stop poking this wild beast of a climate with sticks, and let it go its own way."
30

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 09/05/2008 22:26:50
#12 Upbeat : Had far too much wine on a Friday night to respond sensibly.
Have a good weekend !!!

 

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