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New Lib Dem leader will consider backing vote on independence



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Published Date: 27 August 2008
THE prospect of a multi-option referendum on Scottish independence came a step closer yesterday when Tavish Scott, the new leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said he was willing to consider the proposal.
He easily saw off the challenge from his two rivals, Ross Finnie and Mike Rumbles, capturing almost 60 per cent of the vote in the leadership poll, the results of which were announced yesterday afternoon.

But the 42-year-old Shetland MSP has always been a vociferous opponent of an independence referendum.

He was instrumental in rejecting post-election overtures from the First Minister, Alex Salmond, about a possible SNP-Lib Dem coalition because the Nationalists were demanding such a plebiscite.

But after he was elected leader yesterday, Mr Scott softened his stance on a referendum, saying it was something he was prepared to consider.

"We will see what legislation the SNP come forward with," he said.

Asked whether he was intuitively against a referendum on independence, he replied: "I am not intuitively against making sure that people have a choice and an opportunity to cast a vote on these things, but I believe it should be a strengthened Scotland within the UK."

Mr Scott's decision to ease his opposition to a referendum on independence was partly in response to the issue being raised during the leadership campaign.

His rival Mr Rumbles was willing to let the party decide its position, rather than impose a blanket rejection from the leadership.

The new leader's position seems to follow this line, and the Scottish Liberal Democrats might take a decision on the issue at their next conference next spring.

By that time, the Calman Commission looking at the powers of the Scottish Parliament will have reported, and there may be a groundswell of opinion for a multi-option referendum, asking Scots to choose between the status quo, more powers for the parliament or independence.

A spokesman for the First Minister congratulated Mr Scott on his election, but then compared his confusing stance on a referendum with that of the former Labour leader Wendy Alexander, who made a high-profile U-turn in favour of a referendum earlier this year, before retreating from that position.

The spokesman said: "We had Wobbly Wendy, and now we have Twisting Tavish. Tavish Scott was previously known for his hardline opposition to a referendum, and now we look forward to him upholding Liberal Democrat principles and supporting the Scottish Government's referendum bill in 2010."

Murdo Fraser, the deputy leader of the Scottish Tories, also got in a dig, saying: "We congratulate Tavish on his election as the Lib Dem leader. He will have a tough job as he takes over the reins of Scotland's fourth party, especially since Scottish politics is now a three-horse race."

The post of leader fell vacant when Nicol Stephen stood down last month for family reasons.

Mr Scott, who will travel to Glenrothes in Fife today to campaign for his party ahead of the by-election there, secured 59 per cent of the first-choice votes, easily surpassing the 50 per cent plus one threshold to win outright after the first count.

A total of 2,457 party members voted in the contest: 1,450 voted for Mr Scott, 568 for Mr Finnie (23.1 per cent) and 439 for Mr Rumbles (17.9 per cent).

Mr Scott said: "Can I thank the party for this, the gold medal of the Liberal Democrats Olympics."

The leadership result was announced at Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh,.

In front of an audience of MPs, MSPs and party activists, the new leader was quick to train his sights on the Scottish Government.

Mr Scott said: "After less than 18 months in government, the SNP is riding high in the polls. They're popular, but here's my prediction – by 2010 they will not be.

"We can already see the underlying weakness that will undo Alex Salmond. What looks confident, sure-footed and wise today will be seen as arrogant, misguided and politically dishonest tomorrow.

"Spin is the hallmark of this government, but spin has a shelf life."

Nick Clegg, the UK Liberal Democrat leader, welcomed Mr Scott's victory.

"Tavish will address the issues that matter most to the people of Scotland, not the narrow-minded squabbles of the Nationalists and Labour," he said.

The full article contains 730 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 August 2008 10:53 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Liberal Democrats
 
1

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 27/08/2008 00:06:13
Where does he stand on the 10% oil fund? Joe Grimmond, a Shetland MP, ensured that Shetland got a good deal. Will Mr. Scott, as a Shetland MSP who no doubt like his predecessor desires to be First Minister, deny the rest of Scotland a fair deal?

When are the Lib Dems going to start pushing their beliefs, such as belief in a Local Income Tax, which they have been all but silent on in recent months? Surely, with some negotiation with the SNP, this could have been delivered by now. So why have they been so reticent?

As for the multi-option referendum: the SNP have suggested in the past that they are open to the idea. But if it happens the Lib Dems will have to put forward their case, of what they stand for (not just that they dislike the SNP). I thought they stood for federalism but the F word is rarely used by the Lib Dems these days and they have certainly expended no energy on arguing its merits. What, then, are the merits of federalism? And are the Lib Dems even able to deliver on this issue?
2

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 27/08/2008 00:10:35
"The leadership result was announced at Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh"

In a VERY small function room I would imagine
3

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:14:37
I may think about "Bringing It on",

Depending on the exact wording.

But then again, maybe I won't.

Go back to your Constituencies, and prepare for...BEWILDERMENT!
4

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:18:05
1
Good points Gregor.I too seem to remember the libs wanting a Federal UK.

With an enthusiastic John Cleese pointing at whiteboards on a video.

5

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:21:05
Poor old English Mike...He was too much of a Scottish Nationalist for them.

Go back to your Constituencies, and prepare for...OBLIVION!
6

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:22:12
3
Evening Col.

I'm losing patience with someone.
7

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:27:22
#6
Conan the Librarian

It's a virtue, I'm told.
8

Resolutions,

27/08/2008 00:29:38
Good points Gregor.

Unless they start standing up for their ideals and beliefs, oblivion will follow rapidly.

Is it too late and is this the guy to do it?

Very doubtful.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:31:09
7
You are a fourth columnist by the way.

I hope he was trying to be funny.
10

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:35:41
#9
Conan the Librarian™,

Who was he...It wasn't me!
11

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:37:00
Is that the crocodile from the punch and Judy show?
12

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:37:44
Aye. The Scotsman.
13

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:40:23
...the Englishman and the Irishman.

What did they do?
14

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:42:15
#13

I have Opened a hailing frequency.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

27/08/2008 00:42:39
14
Meet a Scotsman in a bar?

But please go on Col.
16

Col. Blimp­IV*,

27/08/2008 00:50:11
#17
Anton

That Tamil Tiger guy will soon be taking over here at Barclay Towers...so you can put the gun down.
17

Senga Jean,

27/08/2008 01:21:41
Well they are under starters orders and they are off And Tavish Scott is leading by a nose.....Oh Dear a crocodile appears from no where and with tears in its eyes squeeks "That's the way to do it" But he steels himself before he is rumbled "Oh No" he falls at the first fence....gosh is that the time? G'nite All.
18

Wisnaeme,

27/08/2008 02:01:03

Ach so.

Just a consideration then?

A maybe aaaaaaaye or maybe a nnnnnnnnno.

A sometime, maybe, never, he11 will freeze over first, suggestive digestive for mass public consumption..,

and for the gullible.

Still in touch with establishment 'Mingin' then.
.

19

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 27/08/2008 02:16:48
Actually it's a two horse race. And this looser it totally irrelevant. Wake me up when it's over.
20

Brian Hill,

27/08/2008 02:18:58
"........it was something he was prepared to consider???"

No Mr Scott, it's something you, like every other MSP who values his job will support wholeheartedly because by the time 2010 comes around the people of this country will be demanding a referendum on the Independence and not you or anyone else will even think about defying it or even attempt to amend the question.

But it's good to see you are finally getting the message.
21

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 27/08/2008 02:23:07
The lib dems returning to thier beliefs, what beliefs, all they know about is to BELEIVE IN WHEN THEY WILL CHANGE THIER MINDS. They are in fourth position now and will be squeezed off the Political Map before 2009.Irrelevance comes to mind!!!!Good luck tavish, you are going to need it.
22

Traquir , Alba,

27/08/2008 04:08:56
"A spokesman for the First Minister congratulated Mr Scott on his election, but then compared his confusing stance on a referendum with that of the former Labour leader Wendy Alexander"

So a major U-Turn out of the gate :

"Tavish Scott, the hard-line referendum opponent"

From Ming Campbell
"So long as an independence referendum was at the heart of Alex Salmond’s position, I think people who had been elected, as the MSPs were, on a quite different platform, would want to think twice before any coalition. One of the reasons I’ve declared for Tavish Scott is that I think he’s got clear views about these matters."

see - tinyurl.com/5epmdr

It would appear the U-Turns on referednums
is not the only similarity that Tavish has
with Wendy.

"Another to take advantage of the system was transport minister Tavish Scott who, having bought a £380,000 family home in Edinburgh, charged the public purse £1000 a month in mortgage interest. He had previously claimed rent on a flat owned by his sister, which he subsequently bought and then sold on for a profit of £38,000."

see - tinyurl.com/6d2q3s

Highly negative attacks on the SNP, U-Turns,
stretching the rules on Expenses all
sounds very déjà vu -
have the liberals elected a male version of
Wendy ? I wonder who the liberal version
of Jackie Baillie will be :)
23

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 06:43:37
And does Tavish agree with Liberal Peers Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer and Dick Taverne that the £2.4 million donation the Lib Dems received from a wanted man is tainted and should be returned?

From The Times Online 27 October 2005
The Times today revealed that Michael Brown faces up to five years in jail after skipping probation in Florida seven years ago while owning money to a court. He has been accused of bouncing 12 cheques worth more than $7,300. He said that he was "truly shocked" to learn that he was regarded as an absconder on court papers.
There is no precedent for a British political party keeping major funding from a donor who was a wanted man when the gift was made.
Michael Brown is a tax exile who gave the Lib Dems £2.4 million through a company which did not trade in the UK which is against Electoral Commission rules.

Google… Michael Brown £2.4 million donation for the full story
24

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 27/08/2008 07:00:36
Tavish, go with the flow. Be a big player even in opposition within a self managed country. We, and I include you, can help steer this country of ours away from international tension and conflict. Look and admire Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and I could go on. Be brave with a broad outlook.
25

Jim boy,

dunedin 27/08/2008 07:01:46
Tavish states 'but I believe it should be a strengthened Scotland within the UK.'

So, if it needs to be strengthened, there obviously was a problem before. What was the problem?

26

Tynietiger,

27/08/2008 07:04:54
AS we can't comment on the British Nationalist letters I would like to say what about those narrow Welsh Nationalist athletes and spectators who on BBC TV last night flew the Welsh Dragon in defiance of Team GBs (Gordon Brown's) master race project.

I wonder if our supine athletes and spectators will fly the Saltire this evening?
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 27/08/2008 07:12:13
A multi option plebiscite sounds good to me. Let's choose amongst 1. Union as is 2. Total independence 3. A United States of Great Britain federation.
28

Boy Wonder,

27/08/2008 07:36:44
I see the Libdumbs have elected another Ginger to lead them. Haven't past flirtations with redheads not warned them enough??
29

LEAL,

27/08/2008 07:40:40
31
I think a fairer way would be to hold a referendum on
1) independence
2)union
If the Scottish people decide to stay within the union,but express a clear desire for more powers/federalism,a referendum should be held on that issue.It must be remembered that the Scottish people have the right to choose whether to stay in the union or not,but they have no right to dictate to the rest of the union how the union is to be federated.The people of the whole UK will have to want a federal UK and vote for it in a UK wide referendum.I cant see any real demand for federation in middle England,where this will be decided.
30

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/08/2008 07:46:51
Why hasn't Salmond backed Abkhasia's and South Ossetia's fight for independence?
31

Climate change is a fraud,

27/08/2008 07:48:50
The SNP and Libs both support the EU, so independence really means Scotland becoming an insignificant state of the EU.

VOTE UKIP for real independence. Independence fromt the EU Soviet!

VOTE UKIP in Glenrothes.
32

,

27/08/2008 07:54:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

MacGillicuddy,

27/08/2008 07:58:09
#33
Unless each of the four national results in a federation referendum is in favour, there can be no federation.
34

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 27/08/2008 08:13:36
I think that Tavish Scott is experiencing displacement since his description of the SNP government(arrogant,misguided and dishonest) is how many people have percieved the Liberal Democrats in recent times.Anecdotal evidence indicates that is even how some of their members view them.

However,the real disapointment is that Scott views rhetoric,innuendo and slogans as the way forward.When will opposition parties put the electorate before their narrow political gain? The SNP government are a minority government of a parliment with very limited powers.They only control a small proportion of Scotlands money and they are also confronted by a very aggressive Labour administration in London,that puts party politics before the interests of the Scottish electorate.The SNP government are popular because they are doing a good job within very tight constraints. However, no administration in Edinburgh could possibly achieve all of the aspirations of their electorate since they do not have access to most of the countries wealth,unlike fully independant governments.

A mature opposition would be honest enough to acknowledge those constraints and work with the governing party to overcome the barriers to delivering what the electorate want.Instead of waiting for the government to fail,they should be focused on helping to solve the problems faced by the Scottish government.Otherwise,they are putting party politics before the needs of the electorate.That is why Tavish Scotts rhetoric,as reported in this newspaper,is so diapointing.However,I think he will find,as Labour has,that an incresingly sophisticated electorate,wont buy this anymore.
35

jdships,

27/08/2008 08:14:00
Sorry Tavish
Lib/Dems = Irrelevance = wasted vote at an election .
36

Tom R,

27/08/2008 08:27:17
In electing Tavish Scott the Lib Dems have elected the most unionist of the three candidates, whatever his pretence about "considering" a referendum on independence.

All we need now is for the most unionist of the three Labour leadership candidates,Iain Gray, to be elected and the SNP will face two party leaders whose defining posture is one of subservience to their party leaders in London.

The SNP will find it very easy in such a situation to point out which party can pursue Scotland's genuine interests best.
37

,

27/08/2008 08:27:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Mikey,

27/08/2008 08:30:32
The question in the referendum is easy.

"Do you want the Scottish government to renegotiate the terms of the Act of Union?"

Yes
No

And for lib Dums,

Mibbe.....
39

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 27/08/2008 08:45:35
Any plebiscite will have to involve all four home countries since all are involved and have their right to a say. I suspect most of the others want rid of Scotland and most of Scotland want things as they are. (80% of Glasgow East did NOT support SNP)
40

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/08/2008 08:46:21
Please answer my question at 34.
41

Senga Jean,

27/08/2008 08:50:24
#44 Have you stopped fiddling while Rome burns? Answer YES or NO!
42

MacGillicuddy,

27/08/2008 08:53:32
#44
How long is a piece of string? Answer ONLY in inches or metres.
43

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 08:55:15
W u Merchant

Why has Tavish Scott and Gordon Brown not supported Russia and decreed that the red white and blue flag be flown at all times.
44

Sile,

Planet Earth 27/08/2008 08:58:23
30# Don't show your ignorance laddie it was the Olympic committee and China that decreed only Flags that represented the teams to be flown, as much as it sticks in your throat it was TEAM GB so only the Jack was allowed, you can fly as many saltires as you like but the contestants were there as reps for the UK, get over it, just be proud of their achievment..
45

Kick the pig party,

27/08/2008 08:59:17
Tavish is guy who hates the SNP, stormed off in the huff during the coalition forming talks and bitterly misses his ministerial car. The man was focussed on keeping his party neither liberal nor democratic when opposing a referendum in 2010. Has he finally seen sense? Has he realised that it's going to happen and his small, increasingly irelevant party should try to be on the right side of the argument when it comes?
I can't help thinking that he and his party will continue in their insignificance in Scottish politics. I look forward to the results of the 2011 Holyrood poll when the Greens beat the LibDems into 5th place. Unless the Libdems come out in complete support of the proposed referendum question that is what will happen to them. I suspect we'll hear more excuses about the wording of the question. Exciting times watching a party die...
46

brownlie,

27/08/2008 08:59:53
44 WUM

What is your interest in Abkhasia and South Assetia? Have they got weapons of mass destruction which could decimate the UK in 45 minutes?
47

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 09:01:47
Tavish was totally against Independence and refused to go into coalition with the SNP because of their commitment to a referendum. Now he is ok about a referendum? Looks as if he sees the way the wind is blowing after Glasgow East, soon Glenrothes etc. Aye, some politicians would sell their grannies to keep a place at the trough, and in that respect FibDums are just like New Labour.
48

The Spook in Leith,

27/08/2008 09:03:41
I don't normally comment on articles to do with the Lib dums, its bad for my street cred but hey!!!

Now.. A SNP spokesman said: "We had Wobbly Wendy, and now we have Twisting Tavish" That i find funny.

Murdo Fraser said.."He will have a tough job as he takes over the reins of Scotland's fourth party, especially since Scottish politics is now a three-horse race." ..correct on the small party front but wrong on the 3 horse race, try 2 horse..

Tavish is only trying to get himself heard and recognized on the TV and in the News papers and this is why he is sounding of on the referendum front.

The lib dems can not be trusted, hell no they cant.



49

MacGillicuddy,

27/08/2008 09:03:43
#51
Fibdums not just like Liebour.
Fibdums = Liebour
They are terminally conjoined!
50

The Spook in Leith,

27/08/2008 09:08:44
#51

Yip you have described the lib dums to a tea, mind you i would go further and say, they are a filthy wee party who are on the brink of going into receivership.

The SNP should remind the public that Tavish Snot was the transport minister in the lib/lab government and some of his projects are still being investigated like the Aberdeen by-pass.
51

brownlie,

27/08/2008 09:12:50
Is this the party that publicly were against the Iraq invasion but, in Scotland, stayed in coalition with the party that instigated the invasion?

They could have taken a significant, and popular, stance if they had refused to carry on the coalition but privileges overcame principles and ministerial cars more important that human lives.
52

adl333,

Linlithgow 27/08/2008 09:21:24
Politician in WANTS MORE POWER FOR SELF IN FUTURE SHOCK!!

U-Turn by Lavish Tavish just as he gets closer to the trough! More power, more expenses.

I'm sure that this wasnt what the poor misguided people voted for in the 1999 (land of milk & honey) devolution referendum (independence or the expensive politicians & bureaucracy).

You can always trust a LibDem - to do whatever is in their own self-interest, whichever way the wind is blowing that day.

Any process that allows these charlatans to influence the majority in a hung parliament is fundamentally flawed.
53

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:21:56
Really cannot understand the lib dems. Scotland could really do with a rejuvinated lib dems but they seem intend on electral suicide. It is almost like watching the uk tories after getting beaten in 97.

It is a shame. With labour so inherently corrupt and the tories still struggling to recover after their anti scottish period in the 80s, scotland does need some alternative parties.
54

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:29:45
#brownlie

It might have taken longer than 45 minutes but Brown managed to decimate the UK anyway. Brown the chancellor of mass destruction.
55

Alan B,

27/08/2008 09:34:16
Does anyone think the unionist new tactic against independence is to appoint the worst leaders to their parties. We have seen wendy now we will have one of the three stooges. And now we have scott.

Do the unionist parties want scotland to look at these people and then reject independence as our party leaders are so incompetent.

The biggest flaw in this plan is they have not worked out Brown is leading labour in westminster and has brought new meaning to incompetence.
56

Marian,

27/08/2008 09:42:09
It appears that the opposition parties at Holyrood are obsessed with going up the blind alley of trying to "land one on Alex Salmond" rather than working constructively with the SNP Government to look after the interests and priorities of Scots.
57

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 09:51:34
Norway, a small oil-rich nation, and still discovering loads of the black gold (see article below, published today). A State-owned oil company too, keeps all the cash in house as it were. Tavish knows what an oil fund has done for Shetland. He if anyone should realise what it can do for Scotland. Does he really see benefits in Westmonster squandering all our resources on illegal wars, nuclear weapons, dodgy international deals, and fancy financial tricks in the City like Northern Crock? Naw, c'mon Tavish, take your LibDem mates into the warm waters of Independence. Do it now. You could be Scotland's Foreign Minister in a SNP-LibDem coalition! - something you could never be at UK level - not even Ming the Minger ever achieved anything like it. C'mon, go for it. Do it soon, before its too late for you and your party. Your party needs a big push and this could be it. Feel the way the wind is blawin!

"StatoilHydro finds biggest oilfield off Norway in a decade

STATOILHYDRO has discovered the largest oil field off Norway for almost a decade which will be developed in the next five years, writes Martyn Wingrove in Stavanger.

The state-run company now thinks it has more than 200m barrels of oil reserves in the Dagny-Ermintrude oil field and this is enough for StatoilHydro to consider a stand alone project.

StatoilHydro head of Norwegian exploration Tim Dodson said the North Sea field is the largest discovery in Norway since Italian firm Eni drilled into the Goliat structure in the Barents Sea in 2000.

The structure is north of StatoilHydro’s Sleipner gas production platforms, but because it is oil, there is no pipeline to transport stabilised crude to a terminal, so shuttle tankers will be needed in any development solution.

Mr Dodson said it is too early to choose a development solution, but oil field developments in this area involve floating production storage and offloading vessels and jack-up platforms and storage vessels.

“With 200m barrels a
58

cataibh,

Over the Struie 27/08/2008 10:01:32
No 51 you have got it in one. Well done
59

Doh,

27/08/2008 10:08:07
"But after he was elected leader yesterday, Mr Scott softened his stance on a referendum, saying it was something he was prepared to consider."

Well if he had said that during the leadership election campaign I might of even voted for him.

Anyway he should be thinking about the popularity of the SNP. That is not his job.

His priority should be to promote LibDem policies and not just to slag the SNP. Labour will do that.
60

Doh,

27/08/2008 10:14:36
#57 AlanB

Time will tell - but Tavish will be a good leader of the LibDems - *if* he learns from last years mistakes -we will make gains at the next election.

Reports of our death are greatly exaggerated.


61

tassiestag,

rosebery 27/08/2008 10:15:45
cut oot a'this c..p........rebuild hadrians wall.and ca'it "sandys dyke" .....scotlands independent,an'thats it.
62

Morbo,

27/08/2008 10:19:28
They've elected the guy who wants to tax us out of our cars. Chances of them getting my vote - zero.
63

,

27/08/2008 10:20:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 10:31:11
57 Alan B
It's hard to see a meaningful role for the LibDems in Scotland. In rather old fashioned terms, Labour in Scotland (depending on new leader) appear to be be placing themselves to the left of the SNP and the Tories to the right. There doesn't seem to be any space for the LibDems to occupy.
65

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/08/2008 10:41:15
#68 Ugly George

If only we could understand what they're for it would help! For years now I've tried to understand the Lib Dems but end up confused at their stance if you could call it that. In recent times this seems to be to cosy up to the party in power to gain ministerial Mondeos whilst avoiding any awkward issues like independence etc.

66

danielrober,

27/08/2008 10:50:14
# 61 Darien,Panama

Thank you.

At least now we know, that the SNP intend to pay for shiny bridges by nationalising the oil and gas industry.

The SNP - truely a party stuck in the past.
67

donald,

glasgow 27/08/2008 10:52:20
"New Lib Dem leader will CONSIDER backing vote on independence" And he accused Alex of dithering?
68

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 10:53:10
#68 Labour are still there in Scotland, they will not disappear completely, unfortunately. But both LibDems and Tories are also struggling badly in Scotland - operating on their own is fruitless and their only destination at the moment is moving closer to oblivion. The only real hope for either of the latter two (in Scotland that is) is to ally with the SNP, who are on a roll. My feeling is that either the Scottish Tories or the LibDems will move a lot closer to the SNP very soon, probably after Glenrothes. The one who moves first will have most to gain. In my view that will be the LibDems as they are more pragmatic and maybe a bit less UK-sentimentalist (or UK-fundamentalist?) than the Tories.
69

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 10:57:15
#70 "At least now we know, that the SNP intend to pay for shiny bridges by nationalising the oil and gas industry."

Not exactly what I said, was it. You should get a job with the meejah.
70

danielrober,

27/08/2008 11:01:51
# 73 Darien,Panama

You needed to balance caution against your confidence. You've just told all the engineering familes the SNP's intention.

Thanks :-)
71

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 27/08/2008 11:01:56
How considerate Tavish?

Can't help but notice he has the usual hallmark of most modern day politician; the sham mocking grin!

Not as convincing as Comrade Stalin Brown's famous grin!

There is no shortage off oil ANY WHERE!

There only is, when those who control it, DECIDE when and where in order to suit their own financial greed and power clout!
72

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:02:34
48
Sile,
Planet Earth 27/08/2008 08:58:23

So if the team represents the United Kingdom................................why is it called Great Britain?

Maybe you should get on top of it!
73

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:06:30
63
Doh,
27/08/2008 10:08:07

He did NOT soften his stance as you put it.Either you agree with democracy or you dont !

He either (1)backs the peoples right to a referendum or (2)like his predecessor fears the outcome.

Since its not 1 it must be 2.

NOT DEMOCRATIC!
74

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:07:12
61 Darien
If you are going to quote Norway and its oil fund you have to lok at the whole picture. Norway has put money into an oil fund but it has also funded its expenditure with very high taxation:
VAT at 25% including VAT on food
Income tax starting at 28%

The recent CPPR study from Glasgow University showed that over the last 5 years Scotland's "geographical share" of North Sea revenues did not even cover the deficit in the Scottish budget let alone leave anything for an oil fund. The annual deficit ranged from £1.8billion to 5.4billion

It might be better this year as the price of oil has risen but then production is falling so the medium/long term situation is not promising.

75

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:26:51
52
The Spook in Leith,
27/08/2008 09:03:41

WELL SAID!

The Liberal Party had a deal(unnoficially) for the early years with the SNP (although the SNP was very much still emerging from its infancy) where the SNP did not contest Liberal held seats on an unnoficial understanding that they would back any call for Home Rule.That quickly became an empty and broken assumption many moons ago.The Libs have now gone full circle and oppose that we even measure what the people think!
VOTE LIB DEM SOD THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND!
You are correct .Far from trusting them we should remove them from the equation.
They represent people who sit on the fence.
Their pretendy federal solution is a non starter,since it is a system presumably where Scotland would retain her taxes including oil revenues or its a complete sham.
Westmonster will NEVER agree to a system where Scotland keeps her taxes.
Thats why they want SCOTLAND!

People who sit on fences tend to get it right up them!
Their vote should soon reflect this starting at Glenrothes .

Bye Tavish!
76

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:29:05
78
Ugly George,
Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:07:12

You also have to take avergae earnings into account in Norway .They are considerably higher as I understand it,and Norway has one of the highest standards of living anywhere in the world.That can only be possible with high earnings!
77

,

27/08/2008 11:29:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 11:29:59
#74 & #78; Unionist/aka British Nationalist propoganda troops oot in force today! Sorry to upset you chaps, but bring it on, as the fat lady once sang.

By the way, Norway had over 90 competitors compared with Scotland's 19 at the olympics and enjoys sports facilities/infras which make Scotland look like what it is, less developed/mezzagiorno. I expect you would call that yer Union Dividend? (New Zealand had 180 competitors, almost 10 times as many as 'we canne dae it oorsels' Scotland forming a very very wee part of the Team GB!). Get the cringe?
79

Doh,

27/08/2008 11:30:03
#77 morris

I suggest you read the article with more care.

BTW there is nothing undemocratic about being oppossed to a referendum. If the SNP gain a majority of the seats they can have a referendum for all I care.

Why not have a referendum on something I support, like LIT? Why not? Are you saying the SNP are undemocratic?
Grow up.

It seems to me Tavish is listening to what was said during the leadership campaign and we will all see how he acts in the coming few years.
80

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:39:50
82 Darien
I notice that just beacause I question your analysis with some facts you categorise me as "British Nationalist Propagenda Troops"

What I don't notice is any meaningful response to the facts I pointed out.

I can only assume that, as you can't sustain a proper, cohesive argument or analysis you just resort to throwing tired cliched insults.
81

morris,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 11:41:37
83 Doh
Nicol Stephen made your party position absolutely clear when he said on a Radio Forth phone in:

" I know of no instance in history where any party has supported the use of a referendum,unless they knew in advance the outcome and agreed with it"
Im reasonably confident that my wording here is fairly accurate.You are maybe quite happy to hold a referendum and I salute you for that,but the LIB DEM party is not!

Mike Rumbles should have been the man,and they will rue the decision for a long long time.

This is only my opinion but its one I hear increasingly more and more. I will be very surprised if the LIberal vote does not collapse at Glenrothes .
I am biased I agree. I am also giving my honest opinion!



82

brownlie,

27/08/2008 11:45:19
Note the Saltires in the photograph. Could this be a subliminal message to the SNP?

81 Alan Reid

"I am proud to be Scottish" - Surely Chris Hoy is not the poster by that name on the Herald site? On second thoughts, it can't be, Chris Hoy's comments made sense.
83

Darien,

Panama 27/08/2008 11:50:57
#84 Why should I answer your point when you don't address mine? Anyway, as I've been to Norway a great deal over the last 10 years I know firsthand that that nation is an excellent role model for an independent Scotland and you know zip about Norway. All you have is googled stats - a trol AM2 strategy. Care to comment on my Union Dividend examples shown below (could add the spiralling cost of London Olympics, London Underground, London this, London that etc)?

"Tavish knows what an oil fund has done for Shetland. He if anyone should realise what it can do for Scotland. Does he really see benefits in Westmonster squandering all our resources on illegal wars, nuclear weapons, dodgy international deals, and fancy financial tricks in the City like Northern Crock?"
84

brownlie,

27/08/2008 12:00:41
70 Daniel

Are you really suggesting that Norway is a backward country, i.e. living in the past, by having a state-owned oil company which benefits it's economy instead of following the British example of selling it off cheaply??
85

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:03:53
87 Darien
You raised the issue of an oil fund and I replied, (not with as you stated googled stats but with evidence produced by a research body showing that that was not feasible) so I did address your point and you just responded with cliched labels. You did not address the point but merely sought to digress onto other areas ("Union Dividend etc. which I had not mentioned) and hurl more insults.

So this is your debating strategy - if you can't answer, hurl insults and then if you still can't answer change the topic. By the way I have been to Norway as well so you can't even be accurate in your insults.
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 12:08:29
I just love the Saltires Tavish!

Does this mark a subliminal shift towards the SNP with whom you share many core policies?
87

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:18:02
Yes it should happen, and when it fails as it will, then maybe we can get on with more important things and it will certainly wipe the grin of the mug that is Salmon.

People will say whatever in a poll on this issue but when it comes to putting an x in a box that could have an enormous impact on their wellbeing most people will stick with the status quo. Thats what happens in Quebec and its what will happen here.

Think of all the layoffs in the public sector, in defense, and the huge uncertainty that will hang over Scotlands finances for years especially if they are put under control of failed ex bank economist like Salmon. And we all know by now how good banks like RBS are at economics...
88

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 12:18:06
#34 If the people of Abkhasia and South Ossetia desire it, then I think Salmond should back them.

I take it that you don't?
89

danielrober,

27/08/2008 12:22:47
# Darien,Panama and brownlie

Not only am i aware of Norway, to a degree those in my (tiny) field from Norway, are aware about me. I am a pro-European, though more on an EEC model than EU model. Due to insticts, history and a good education i find nationalists limited in aspects and intelectual freedom. That's why you guys always quote nationalisation as the best option foor practically everything.

Exstrapulations about oil reserves forget the hard work involved in extracting, moving and processing the oil. As for nationalisation, dam right i'm against it.

Regulation not nationalisation and lets say hello to international investors. Not the shut the door and shut your mounth attitude of nationalised companies
90

Peter Baleares,

Palma 27/08/2008 12:24:55
So after being nailed to the Saltaire by the Scotsmans regular Natz`s since before Chris Hoy landed, there is no story about the people of Edinburg welcoming home their olympians.

Now why do you suppose that is?
91

G,

dundy 27/08/2008 12:25:31
Whether or not Tavish would consider supporting a referendum is unimportant, whether the SNP will supply such a thing is....
WHY the delay?
92

JayDeeTee,

27/08/2008 12:28:51
"But the 42-year-old Shetland MSP has always been a vociferous opponent of an independence referendum"

Imagine that! A Fib Dem who changes his spots depending on which way the wind blows.
93

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 12:29:47
94 Peter
Surely it's time to leave Chris Hoy alone. He went to the Olympics, did exceptionally well and now finds himself being dragged back and forwards in an essentially political debate. That is not fair on him.
94

,

27/08/2008 12:30:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
95

Peter Baleares,

Palma 27/08/2008 12:40:37
97 Ugly George.

You may be right George, I was just so saddened to read some of the comments by his fellow Scots, happily, they were the minority.
96

malcolmcean,

27/08/2008 12:46:45
Georgeperson writes: "94 Peter
Surely it's time to leave Chris Hoy alone. He went to the Olympics, did exceptionally well and now finds himself being dragged back and forwards in an essentially political debate. That is not fair on him."



I think that Chris Hoy's comments are marvellous. Not because I agree with them (either the narrative of his comments in the Scotsman over the past two days; or his actual beliefs articulated above), but because they have made both the Daily Record and the Scotsman look totally ridiculous.

I can honestly say that I love to see tabloids having their faces rubbed firmly in the mud. The Scotsman and the Daily Record richly desrve this very public humilialtion.
97

European Scot,

27/08/2008 12:52:52
94 Peter Baleares

"So after being nailed to the Saltaire by the Scotsmans regular Natz`s ........."

Natz's ?

Not a question of spelling this time Peter, much more a matter of good taste.
98

malcolmcean,

27/08/2008 12:53:37
Incidentally, the Daily Record's historical revisionism of today is part and parcel of a realisation of a trend they have been made aware of in the past year.

Previously, when the Recod made a wildy partisan statement which had been ribbished, they would have totally ignored trying to correct it. But, quite recently, they have had focus grouops reveal to them that their readership is now majority made up of people increasingly unreceptive to their hardline editorial stance against the SNP and Scottish independence.

This has not stopped them from trying to manipulate the readership when they think they can, but it has forced them into pos