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Published Date:
17 July 2007
THE doctor who sparked the MMR controversy paid children £5 to take their blood samples at his son's birthday party, a disciplinary panel heard yesterday.
Dr Andrew Wakefield is accused of showing "callous disregard for the distress and pain" he knew or ought to have known the children might suffer as a result of his actions. He is also accused of abusing his position of trust and bringing the medical profession into disrepute.

Dr Wakefield and Professors John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch are appearing before the General Medical Council (GMC) Fitness to Practise Panel in London to hear disciplinary charges against them. They are accused of serious professional misconduct and face being struck off.

The trio published a paper in the Lancet medical journal in February 1998 suggesting there could be a link between the triple jab of mumps, measles and rubella, and bowel disease and autism. It led to falling numbers of parents immunising their children and a row over whether Tony Blair, the then-prime minister, had vaccinated his son, Leo.

It is alleged that Dr Wakefield approached children at the birthday party offering £5 to give blood for research.

While making a presentation to the MIND Institute in California on 20 March, 1999, he apparently told delegates about the incident "in humorous terms" and said he intended to take blood samples in the same way in future, the hearing heard.

The charges, which were read to the five-man panel, continued: "Your conduct was unethical in that you took blood from children in an inappropriate social setting, offered financial inducement to children to obtain blood samples, and showed a callous disregard for the distress and pain that you knew or ought to have known the children involved might suffer."

Dr Wakefield was accused of being "dishonest" and "irresponsible" when putting his views about MMR across for publication. It was claimed he should have realised his linking of MMR with autism would have "major public health implications" and would attract intense public and media interest.

But supporters of Dr Wakefield have collected more than 7,000 signatures in an online petition. Before the hearing yesterday, parents gathered to show their support for Dr Wakefield - who now works in the US - by holding placards, clapping and cheering as he walked in.

Some signs read: "We're with Wakefield", while others read: "Wakefield Cares".

He and his wife, Carmel, posed for pictures while a few parents chanted: "There's only one Andrew Wakefield" and one shouted: "It's a witch hunt."

One supporter was Sue Gilbert, from Bath, whose 16-year-old son, Adam, has Asperger's syndrome.

She said: "My son had the MMR jab at 14 months and had a terrible reaction. About ten or 11 days later he came out in a measles rash, he was very poorly. Prior to the MMR, he was a totally normal child."

The allegations against the doctors relate to investigations for their study on 12 youngsters with bowel disorders carried out between 1996 and 1998. At the time, all three doctors were employed at the Royal Free Hospital's medical school in London, with honorary clinical contracts at the Royal Free Hospital.

They are accused of performing lumbar punctures on children without proper approval and "contrary" to the children's clinical interests.

Dr Wakefield and Prof Walker-Smith are also accused of acting "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in failing to disclose in the Lancet paper the method by which they recruited patients for the study. It is also alleged a drug was administered to one child for experimental reasons.

One of the key allegations against Dr Wakefield is that he was being paid at the time for advising solicitors on legal action by parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR.

It was alleged that he accepted £50,000 from the Legal Aid Board for research to support litigation by parents.

Another charge is that he ordered investigations "without the requisite paediatric qualifications".

All three doctors are accused of conducting the study on a basis which was not approved by the hospital's ethics committee.

Last night, Jackie Fletcher, founder of the campaign group JABS, stood by the doctors and said the families were adamant that MMR had damaged their children.

She said: "My son is severely handicapped. We're living with the evidence. The Department of Health should be investigating. We've given them the names of 1,200 children who we believe have been damaged by MMR. They have done nothing."

Several Royal Colleges and faculties signed a statement ahead of the hearing, saying there was no evidence of a link between MMR and autism.

The statement read: "The undersigned believe that the MMR triple vaccine protects the health of children.

"A large body of scientific evidence shows no link between the vaccine and autism."

The three men deny the charge of serious misconduct and the hearing is expected to last for three months.

SUPPORTERS GATHER OUTSIDE HEARING TO ACCUSE GMC OF 'WITCH HUNT'


THE doctor who prompted a public-health alert over the MMR vaccine was given a hero's welcome outside the General Medical Council yesterday, despite facing allegations of serious professional misconduct.

Dr Andrew Wakefield, who controversially linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine with autism, was greeted by a crowd of about 50 protesters who believe he has been victimised by the Department of Health.

Yesterday, outside the GMC's central London offices in Euston Road, emotions were running high, with parents chanting support for the doctor.

The campaigners, from grandmothers to young children, waved placards reading "Witch hunt" and "MMR a jab too far". Emotive messages from the parents of children suffering from autism were also displayed on noticeboards outside the hearing and security into the building was tight.

One of the mothers showing support for the doctor was Isabella Thomas, whose online petition has so far attracted more than 7,000 signatures. Mrs Thomas, 50, from Somerset, believes the MMR led to severe reactions in two of her sons, leaving them with bowel disease and autism.

"These doctors are put on trial because they tried to say parents were concerned about the vaccine," she said.

"This is medical negligence by the Department of Health."

She and her husband, Ian, 49, began to worry about MMR after their son Michael, was given the vaccine aged 14 months.

"Michael immediately began to react to it. He had high-pitched screaming and a high temperature which I could not get down.

"He changed from being one baby into another. During that period of time, it was like having a wild animal."

When her youngest son, Terry, was a few months old, one consultant said that if he did not have MMR, he could die from measles because he was prone to convulsions. He also suffered a serious reaction with a high temperature.

Mrs Thomas repeatedly visited doctors and questioned the safety of the MMR jab.

"They basically threatened that if I carried on causing a fuss then my children would be put on the at-risk register."

Mrs Thomas says it is important to stand by Dr Wakefield as he was the only doctor who listened to her.

Last year, Mrs Thomas and other parents took drug companies to court but the refusal to grant legal aid meant the case was stopped because they could not afford to continue.

The full article contains 1239 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 July 2007 11:56 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: MMR vaccine
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 00:44:57

Dig-up the dirt all you want!
WE STILL DONT BELIEVE YOU!
Poor man is a "scapegoat" nothing more nothing less!

2

Pictus,

Hub o' the Universe 17/07/2007 02:13:20

Isn't this story 'lifted' from an episode of "Judge John Deed"?

3

Gnasher,

17/07/2007 02:14:27

Charles, how can you type with your fingers in your ears and your eyes all screwed up, all the time crying "no! no! no!"???

Now just let the GMC do its job.

4

Weng,

England 17/07/2007 05:19:17

Absolutely right, Gnasher. It will be a sad return to the Dark Ages when we allow mass hysteria to get in the way of Science.

5

GrammaKnows,

USA 17/07/2007 07:00:53

"knew or ought to have known the children might suffer as a result of <their> actions"

That would apply to each and every practitioner who inflicts a vaccine jab or blood test on any child at any time. Having it done in a medical or clinic office as opposed to any other circumstance does not make it any less traumatic for any child.

"abusing his position of trust and bringing the medical profession into disrepute"

That would apply to each and every practitioner who jabs a child without informing the parents of potential side effects and subsequently telling the parent the screaming & high fevers are "normal".

"offered financial inducement to children to obtain blood samples"

This applies to every medical study which offers compensation and to every blood bank that pays for blood.

Seems the conundrum here is the trial is directed at the medical profession in general.

6

GrammaKnows,

USA 17/07/2007 07:03:25

"knew or ought to have known the children might suffer as a result of <their> actions"

That would apply to each and every practitioner who inflicts a vaccine jab or blood test on any child at any time. Having it done in a medical or clinic office as opposed to any other circumstance does not make it any less traumatic for any child.

"abusing his position of trust and bringing the medical profession into disrepute"

That would apply to each and every practitioner who jabs a child without informing the parents of potential side effects and subsequently telling the parent the screaming & high fevers are "normal".

"offered financial inducement to children to obtain blood samples"

This applies to every medical study which offers compensation and to every blood bank that pays for blood.

Seems the conundrum here is the trial is directed at the medical profession in general.

7

hertscot,

Science doesn't always know best. 17/07/2007 07:12:47

To all the apologists for a poorly executed piece of research and its subsequent findings, how would you feel if the same approach was taken by a major drug company? Thalydamide anyone?

8

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 07:18:16

It would be unwise to presume guilt - the fact that they have promoted this nonsense about the children's party to the top of list suggests how feeble minded it all is. How do people suppose research scientists obtain control group blood sample?

I am certain that all the ethical permissions will turn out to be in order. However, what lies behind this is the a priori view that there is no connection between bowel disease and autism, and therefore autistic children should be denied medical investigation and treatment if they have bowel disease.

9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 07:23:09

#7 well said and the list goes on! Stilboestrol!
But this time they are trying on the biggest PR job ever!

10

DaveM,

Edin 17/07/2007 07:25:12

The fact it was at a childrens party indicates a lack of control in several aspects... Firstly, the test group is not necessarily selected based on physical or medical characteristics. Secondly, there is unlikely to have been a detailed knowledge of medical history aquired. Now obviously neither of these are hugely relevant in the process of taking a blood sample, but the final concern surely is - was parental consent given? Approacing a clinical trial in this was is unspeakably casual, and inappropriate, whatever the greater debate about the vaccination.

11

Alf K.,

17/07/2007 07:34:29

#6 First any GP giving a child an inocculation is doing it for the childs benefit not for personal research.
Secondly, where is your proof that there is these side effects in this case?
Finally, in the UK we do not get paid for donating blood to the blood bank.

12

GD,

Glasgow 17/07/2007 07:42:56

Certainly looks like another witch hunt to me.
This is basically like the George Galloway story yesterday,
The message from the establishment in both cases being: Agree with us or we'll destroy you.

13

hertscot,

Science doesn't always know best. 17/07/2007 07:53:45

#9

I agree that this is a PR job to clear the GMC and the Lancet of professional stupidity. However when you look at the subsequent (and much larger) studies, there is no scientific or medical evidence to support the suspected link between MMR and Autism/bowel disease.

This doctor flaunted the rules, and even boasted about it. The parents of children who have autism will always be trying to understand why it happened, but using bad research to support your view, promoting its findings may actually be preventing research into other possible causes.
Unfortunately, this doctor is also reported to have been paid by a firm of lawyers attempting to gain compensation for those families. How can you possibly complete a proper impartial study when the people paying your mortgage have effectively decided the outcome for you?

14

jj,

17/07/2007 08:10:48

And the teacher who blew the whistle on state scholl classroom behaviour got banned too. Labour witch hunts.

15

The Zimster,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 08:22:13

Strike him off!

He is responsible for the massive increase in measles and caused me and my wife a lot of anguish about MMR. Never mind how I would feel if he took an unauthorised blood sample from my child at a Birthday party!

I have every sympathy for the parents of autistic children and support them in finding the cause(s), but this guy took advantage of that need, and I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

16

Gnasher,

17/07/2007 08:43:35

GD #12 - citing George Galloway as a victim of some evil conspiracy doesn't exactly help your case! Any more than citing Jeffrey Archer, Robert Maxwell or Jonathan Aitken!

17

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 09:16:22

Look, we are having trial by media with selective leaks from GMC.

The GMC had let it be known that the charges would be published on the day the hearing, but clearly the press were briefed the end of last week. Back in 2004 the Lancet took the view that Deer's ethical allegations did not stand up but took a perverse view on the LSC commission (which they had in fact known about and not acted on for 6 years if the actually did think was breach of their code). I have seen FOI documents - the same ones as Deer - and the case does not look strong. That's my view, and it is my view that it has taken three and half years to bring this prosecution because actually the case is so weak.

What I think people ought to be careful about is being manipulated because they are seeing information out of context. Please remember that no parent has complained, and that includes those who were not party to the litigation or this alleged business about the children's party. The complainant/s are not even being identified though you might think the chief complainant was also orchestrating the adverse publicity.

18

wench,

17/07/2007 09:38:32

The MMR vaccination is internationally renouned as one of the safest vaccinations. We have not had a child die of meesals in this country since 1992 until recently, which is because of the dramatic decrease in the uptake of mmr due to this unneccessary and unproven scare. If Dr Wakefield has taken money from families trying to seek copensation he is clearly unfit to carry out that particular research, I cannot imagine ethical reasearch regulations allowing you to randomly collect blood from children at a party. This dr also advised people to op for single vaccinations despite there being no evidece that they are safer than MMR, when all this is considered this is a very shoddy doctor

19

Elaine,

Dunfermline 17/07/2007 10:02:39

Sadly, some children have autism. Many also had MMR. However that does not mean that one caused the other.

Today is sunny(amazingly) and today I have a headache, but that certainly does not mean that the sunshine - nor even the past long periods of rain - caused my headache.

Dr Wakefield's research is scientifically unsound.

20

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 10:06:45

wench

No one has alleged that Wakefield took money from families.

He would not need ethics committee permission for the blood tests, he would need permission from the parents (who have not complained), if indeed it happened.

It is not illegal to have a medical opinion or give advice.

No one has died in the UK as a result of the waining take up of MMR to date: there has been one measles fatality in an immune compromised case, who may caught the virus off vaccinated people. The DH gave the case no publicity and presumably it did not suit there purpose to highlight the circumstances.

Interesting article by Richard Halvorsen in the Daily Mail today:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/hea...

21

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 10:16:06

Hang on a minute here. Never mind the 'well, what he has done is no worse than all the children forced to have the MMR.' Lets look at the mans actions dispassionately, remembering of course that he is a doctor and would have to be well educated about ethics as part of his university degree.
He organised a birthday party for his child, and then offered 5 pounds to each child who provided a blood sample. When was the last birthday party your child went to where they had a needle stuck in their arm by birthday boys dad and came home with a fiver in their pocket?
Five year olds can't give permission for blood tests.
Their monster parents would have to do that, presuming that the doctor wouldn't have taken the blood without parental permission, so any argument that 'no parent has complained' doesn't hold any water. Why would they, if they agreed to this accepted a fiver for their chlds pain and suffering? (Poster #17)
Do any of you adults like getting blood taken? Is it a nice experience? Would you like it done when you were at a party? Now how about 5 year olds who generally fear needles at the best of times and have no understanding of ethics or how their blood might help save mankind. They were at a birthday party, for goodness sake. How could anyone possibly think that it is ok. Talk about innocence lost.
Even if it turns out that the children were merely recruited at the birthday pary, which seems more likely to me as a rational human being who is willing to believe that the doctor is not a total Josef Mengele, it was still a predatory and inappropriate way of recruiting children to his own study.
it is still abusive and inappropriate and no amount of justification from people with vested interests is going to make it ok.

22

KarenQ,

Dublin 17/07/2007 10:43:07

#22

Have you actually ever given blood? I agree that his ethics in the recruitment process are certainly not great, of course he should have asked permission from parents, but 'innocence lost' and 'pain and suffering' is a little OTT. I work in a research lab and i have given blood on many, many occasions as a coontrol subject - believe me i'd be quite happy if someone paid me £5 for the privledge. If done right it's not sore and even a baby is not going to suffer by loosing 3 mls of blood.

At the end of the day i think the Scotman focusing on how the man got his control subjects means they are totally missing the point... If the man fiddled results to make his case and then caused mass panic which has led to a catostrophic increase in measles, then he is guilty of far more serious things than taking blood from a bunch of 5 year olds.

23

Serafina,

Aberdeen 17/07/2007 10:51:37

#19

Fair enough, there may be no evidence to show that the single vaccinations are better, but surely if parents are panicking so much that they are unwilling to let their child have MMR it would be better that the NHS provided the separate vaccines for free?

The single vaccinations cost over £100 in total, and if the NHS wants to keep measles at the low levels they've been at previously then they should think about offering (for free) the single vaccinations to those children whose parents refuse to let them have MMR.

24

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 11:26:41

KarenQ

A big "If" but a good bit of commonsense about the blood taking. Are we traumatising infants by vaccinating them: there are some interesting if not crazy double standards going on here. Easy to compare administering MMR to a 15 month-old as the worst since Mengele. Having blood taken is not very different from having an injection to 5 year-old. Not sure whether all the 5 year-olds would be that interested in hard cash though.

25

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 11:31:08

#23.
Don't be foolish, of course I've had blood taken. I am also a nurse and midwife and am well aware that having blood taken is neither entirely painless nor a particularly pleasant experience. Even adults who don't have needle phobias(and there are plenty of them around) don't look forward to the experience with relish, even when the procedure is necessary. I have also watched my own child having to have blood taken repeatedly and saw her becoming more fearful each time it happened. I certainly wouldn't dream of letting someone take blood from her at a party, who in their right mind would?
My comment about 'innocent lost' was referring to the fact that little children look forward to birthday parties with great excitement and to have gone to a party where a medical procedure was carried out on you as a five year old, well, yes, I think that would be innocence lost. You would hardly look forward to the next party you were invited to. Imaine you are the parent of one of these children. The party invitation arrives and your child looks up at you and says 'will it be like Johns party where they stuck us all with needles mum? Do I have to go?' I don't think I am being too 'OTT' to imagine that scenario. I think you need to get out of the lab more aften and see that there is a human response to medical experiments, especially on children, which goes far beyond your pragmatic view of 'a spoonful of sugar(or in this case a fiver) makes the medicine go down.'

26

Paul Carline,

Midlothian 17/07/2007 11:42:58

Did someone say "science" in connection with medicine?
Is this the 'science' that kills 10,000 people a year in the UK as a direct result of prescribed drugs (with untold numbers suffering permanent debilitating side-effects)?
Is this the 'science' that says that testing drugs on animals is safe, reliable and necessary?
Is this the 'science' that tries to suppress evidence of the effectiveness of alternative therapies?
Or the 'science' that created thalidomide and then refused to admit that it was causing deformities - because it didn't affect monkeys?
This is the 'science' that is in the pockets of the pharmaceuticals which don't like challenges to their dominance.

27

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 11:50:54

SuzieB

You are talking trenchant rubbish. One minute it is Mengele, the next it something you do as part of your job.

We will probably find out about the circumstances in due course. In the meantime I would still rather send my kids round to Andy's than to Brian's.

28

wench,

17/07/2007 11:53:57

No 21

I was refering to this bit in the article "One of the key allegations against Dr Wakefield is that he was being paid at the time for advising solicitors on legal action by parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR. "

This would suggest a conflict of interest.

Yes dr's can give advice, but why would you suggest having single vaccinations when there is no evidence they are safer than mmr, if anything they are not as good as they take a longer time to fully immunise your child.

When watching the BBC's report the DR interviewed mentioned that diseases such measles which were previously very uncommon are starting to come back, with a child dying. Since the uptake of mmr has been low in previous years i think it is fair to make this connection as children were going unimmunised.

I'd also be very wary about quoting the daily mail as a source of evidence since they are a tabloid newspaper.

29

hertscot,

Science doesn't always know best. 17/07/2007 11:57:38

Sorry, but I think it is unethical to precisely select your control group. Did the good dr use medical records or parental consent (which should not have been given at a party) as a means of selecting the control group? And therefore work out who to invite to a child's party.

Some posters seem to miss the point, that the methodology used throughout this study was inherently flawed and the dr knew that. As, would seem, so did some of the peer reveiwers of the final paper. The Lancet was apparently conned. He is not being "hunted" because of the opinion he put forward, but the GMC is rightly, IMHO, disciplining someone who broke the rules and presented the research as bona fide.

Why would someone do that?

For the fame/recognition, out of arrogance, for financial reward?

His treatment of the children is secondary, though disgusting.

#21

The article is not that interesting,just the Daily Mail trying to justify its role as the chief peddlar of the dr's opinion, but at least its author does not claim to have scientific evidence, anecdotal evidence has no place in science except as a route to proper research, I mean we might start believing in supreme beings next!

30

CLX,

way up north 17/07/2007 12:23:53

#31, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Where does the "control" come from at a party?
I always thought that for blood sampling, and testing in general, it should always be done under hygienic conditions ie; surgery or lab to prevent cross contamination etc.

I think this is the real point when it comes to producing so called ground breaking research..

Maybe it was a couple of rogue pieces of cake that ended up in the samples that lead him to his findings....

31

Saoghal Beag,

17/07/2007 12:24:16

So Dr Wakefield is being made a skapegoat for making MMR a skapegoat?

Bad science, bad research and questionable ethical standards are not an effective way of finding a cause and ultimately a cure/solution.

There are now areas of the country where there is no heard community and people will again realise how serious a disease measles is. What would you prefer, the cance of an autistic child (if you must believe wakefield) or the chance of deaf or dead child? It is the fact that children are being unnessarily exposed to a very serious health risk because of wakefields actions that he deserves to be dragged over the coals and some.

32

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 12:34:40

31

Halvorsen has plenty of evidence that the science behind vaccinology is not what it should be. Very often the studies are flawed, or inadequate or draw conclusions unsupported by their own evidence. You only have to read them. He is quite right the Pertussis vaccine is not worth the hazard. It has not eradicated pertussis (which is very common) but the injection itself is risky (which we found out with our son). Temperature of 39.5 and red down one side of his body - routine according to the NHS. We were advised to come back for the next dose and the same thing happened again.

My son is autistic. Any connection? Well, what are the follow up studies on infants suffering these effects? No yellow card, nothing even in the notes, and certainly not on the General Practitioners' Research Database. This is routine and it is neither scientific or safe.

I guess Halvorsen will be next to the stake.

33

wildwes,

wild wes pa/ usa 17/07/2007 13:07:31

only good thing he did, I guesse that's one way to check on his own son's blood

34

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 13:09:49

#29 John.
Trenchant? Well there's a word you don't see used very often, and certainly not in the context you just used it!
I may take blood as part of my job, but I would never suggest that sticking a needle in someone's arm doesn't hurt. Ok the needle isn't as big as the one used for lumbar punctures....oops did I say 'lumbar puncture'? I almost forgot that part of the allegations in my outrage about children being assaulted at a birthday party.

'They are accused of performing lumbar punctures on children without proper approval and "contrary" to the children's clinical interests. '

For those of you who aren't familiar with the procedure, it involves a child being laid on their side with their back bared and held still with their knees drawn up and their chins forward on their chest. The doctor then stands behind them and 'preps' them with sterile dressings and wipes their skin clean with cleanser. They can't see what is being done to them, but they sure can feel it. After that a needle is inserted to give local anaesthetic, which numbs the skin, but not any deeper. Then a larger needle is inserted between the bones of their spine and fluid is drawn out. They must remain very still, even if it hurts. It takes several minutes of lying completely still for the chid while the doctor makes sure the needle is in the right place or longer if they have to re-do the procedure if no fluid is obtained. It is like an epidural that women get in labour and does have side effects, the worst being paralysis or death, and the possibility of a terrible persistent headache for days afterwords. lets say, you would only want to be doing this procedure with very good reasons. So John, if I liken your good friend to Josef Mengele, tell me what part of the allegations have I misunderstood? I make no apology for reminding people that there are human beings at the painful end of his research and it is very disrespectful of humanity to dismiss their pain a

35

wench,

17/07/2007 13:15:00

Yes i have heard that many health professionals refused to participate in that part of the research for the reasons you've mentioned

36

Gamlabock.,

Perth, Sunny Scotland. 17/07/2007 13:40:03

With all of this free advertising then I guess he will be able to retire after he sells the book he will surely be writing.

www.DrQuality.com

37

hertscot,

Science doesn't always know best. 17/07/2007 13:40:17

34 John
I hope Halvorsen is not next to the stake, I don't disagree with his hypothesis, however, without reviewed clinical data, it will always remain anecdotal.
I would more than welcome clear guidance on what would be right for my own family. But I cannot accept someones assertions with no EVIDENCE, and in his article little is provided.

38

hertscot,

Science doesn't always know best. 17/07/2007 13:45:56

Maybe I should add, for clarity.

It was the Lancet which did the actual c**king up, not the dr. his research should never have been published if so many aspects of it were poorly executed, then for the the daily mail and GMTV to jump on the bandwagon just muddied the scientific waters as the study was presented to the public as abolute fact, which it clearly wasn't at the time and isn't now.

39

connaughtboy,

17/07/2007 15:04:24

#20 elaine - your simplistic analogy is meaningless. Do you understand science?

40

connaughtboy,

17/07/2007 15:05:49

#4 Weng says:

"Absolutely right, Gnasher. It will be a sad return to the Dark Ages when we allow mass hysteria to get in the way of Science."

We already have it's called Global Warming.

41

Ian Munro,

West Wales 17/07/2007 15:39:17

Four hundred years ago the GMC would have been baying for the blood of Copernicus and Galileo because they were going against the established wisdom of the age. So Dr Wakefield is to be sacrificed on the altar of a bunch of witch doctors who are slaves to the pharmaceutical industry. I wonder how many remember Thalidamide?
Of course - Doctors are never wrong, are they?

42

Proximaking,

Dundee 17/07/2007 15:43:39

I saw a program about autism this weekend and most of the "autistic" people on it were what we used to call geeks and they all seemed to have one thing in common, mothers who did everything for them. In Russia they take truly autistic kids and slap them when their attention wavers as they start to withdraw back into themselves. They have a huge success with this method and it doesn't involve drugs and people can live normal lives. We are wrongly diagnosing people and we are not treating them properly. As with so much of mental illness the truly ill one is usually another member of the family who drives the seemingly ill person to do what they do. It is simply a form of rewarding bad behaviour with attention.

43

Joanna,

17/07/2007 16:57:16

Proximaking @ 44

I agree with some of your post...... but don't you think slapping is a bit harsh ...... there must be other ways to attract attention without resorting to physical abuse.

44

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 17:02:26

#44. Proximaking.

Dare you to stand in front of a group of parents of
autistic children and say that.

All this debate about MMR and really it's the mothers to blame as usual. Good one, proximaking!

45

hertscot,

real science for real people 17/07/2007 18:00:49

I love the wy this thread keeps drifting off, concentration, darlings,concentration.

46

Saoghal Beag,

17/07/2007 18:55:39

#44 they should be chuffed they have brats which are not deaf......

#46 nope it's not the mothers blame it's the parents blame.

47

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 18:58:06

#47 Don't blame me, I've covered every paragraph of the article!
But if you look back at the posts Hertscot, it hasn't really drifted-it is still on MMR and autism, and this group of doctors part in it.

48

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 19:01:05

#48.
I think proximating was quite clear when he said thatthey all seemed to have one thing in common, mothers who did everything for them, but go on and share the blame around;-)

49

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

17/07/2007 19:35:09

Proximaking.
YOUR THE ONE THAT NEED COUNSELING TO GET YOU AWAY FROM THIS HIT MENTALITY.MOST OF THE LOW FUNCTIONG AUTISTIC KIDS DONT FEEL PAIN IF ITS PAIN YOUR INFLICTING THROUGH YOUR SLAP AND NOT JUST VISUAL INTIMIDATION WHICH HAS NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER .I HAVE A BOY WHO STUCK HIS HAND ON A HALIGON COOKER RING BRIGHT BRIGHT RED AND THE ONLY REASON I KNEW WAS BECAUSE I COULD SMELL HIS FLESH COOKING IT TOOK 2 YEARS OF GRAFTING TO REPAIR.AND NOT A WHIMPER YET.ANOTHER TIME HE BROKE HIS ARM THIS IS BECAUSE HIS ARM WAS HANGING STRAIGHT WITH NO MOVEMENT NOT BECAUSE HE WAS SCREAMING FROM PAIN ( which would disappoint the likes of you no doubt) ON MY THIRD VISIT TO HOSPITAL THEY FINALLY AGGREED TO X RAY HIM AND FOUND A BROKEN ARM IN 3 PLACES THIS WAS TWO WEEKS AFTER IT HAPPENED AND HIS ARM BY THIS TIME WAS THE SIZE OF HIS LEG .SLAP YOU SLA YOURSELF YOU BITCH SLAPPING KIDS.AS FOR THE GOVERMENT WATCH THIS YOU COW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okwyCPz_tKI

50

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 19:47:30

#44.
Well, it took a while but I knew eventually someone would come in here and shout at you. Fell those capital letters and suffer!

51

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 20:00:45

Just hang on a minute, its neither legal or ethical to just go slapping anyone! least of all children!
And let me remind everyone, under the human rights Act and the children's Act it quite clearly sates,
Disabled children will be treated with the same respect as everyone and given the same chances in life, and they have the SAME RIGHTS as anyone!

52

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 20:04:51

#44 just dont get me started on our disabled children anywhere in the world, not just the UK!

53

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 17/07/2007 20:15:33

The charges againsts this doctor are not about MMR and autism it is about the alledged inapropriate and unethical way he undertook his research, together with his conflict of interest.

Yes science has caused problems but it has also brought great benefits to us. wihout it we'll still be sitting in caves and tgese threads would be paint marks on the wall.

54

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 20:25:56

#55. You are absolutley right, but they completely intertwined in this instance.

55

Phillip,

17/07/2007 20:50:28

I don't know about the UK, but here in the State's it's becoming all to common for any child who does not immediately follow every last instruction from a teacher to be labeled "autistic" even before a doctor is brought in. We've a huge rise in diagnosis of autism.

My aunt's a school principle and she sees it all the time. A student isn't paying attention in class, or seems completely withdrawn, or starts acting out and all of a sudden the teacher is in her office claiming the kid must be autistic and demanding that the child be tested. Of course, the minute the parent's hear about it they're off to find a doctor who'll confirm the diagnosis.

There have been several instances where my aunt had the presence of mind to instead send the kid out for an IQ test instead. Many of these kids that were supposedly "mildly autistic" were actually geniuses according to their IQ tests. It wasn't that they were withdrawing from the world or having trouble relating to other people. It's that they were completely and totally bored with school material that was far too easy for them in the first place and with classmates who were not intellectually stimulating. Add to that the fact that many of them were being bullied and you have a completely normal explanation for their symptoms that doesn't require medicine and is not a disability. Instead of sending the kids to a doctor for treatment, those kids wound up being placed in "gifted and talented" programs with advanced classes. When surrounded by their intellectual equals and when presented with school work that actually challenged them the kids flourished and seemed completely normal.

And it's quite funny when a parent finds out that the problem isn't that the child is disabled, but that the child is so vastly more intelligent than the parent that the kid can't relate to them.

Why did my aunt know to do this? When I was in kindergarten my teacher tried to claim

56

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 20:51:28

cant believe all the press say, the mans accused that don't make him guilty!
A £5er for blood anybody? I just don't believe it!
I mean I could accuse the Queen off being a pole dancer and stealing out of Marks&Sparks, but that would be a nonsense, just as I think like this case!
Anyhow I was talking about the ridiculous slapping comment

57

Saoghal Beag,

17/07/2007 20:57:45

#57 Phillip, been there myself, cruised primary school at the bottom of the class since i was bored out my skull, got to high school and rose to top of the class in sciences. on reflection i could be labelled autistic nowadays, in too may cases autism is an excuse and parents llok for alternatives to blame because they ahven't got it quite right.

58

hertscot,

real science for real people 17/07/2007 20:58:39

Philip

if only that was what was happening in the UK with autism. Apparently a similar thing happens here with dyslexia, where middle class parents want their child to be diagnosed dyslexic, so that they don't have to admit they are just not very clever......but I digress........Sorry Suzy B, but it must be past my bed time!

59

hertscot,

real science for real people 17/07/2007 21:01:49

55 spot on, not MMR but professional misconduct

60

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 21:20:17

#61 why do dismiss this as only being a "witch-hunt"

61

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 17/07/2007 21:20:59

57. Phillip

Intesting story, in the UK there is all this talk about autism but I don't really know what it is, it causes and treatment. I probaly typical of thousands of people in the UK and am bit concerned that its the media 7 day wonder until something else comes along

62

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 17/07/2007 21:25:33

58. Charles Linskaill,

You True he shouldn't be judged by the media but by the GMC. However that the way the modern media works and I can't see it changing.

However taking blood samples at a kiddies party is not really professional and laughing about it at a conference hardly the caring face of modern medicine

63

carfuffle,

USA 17/07/2007 21:39:46

I have No argument with the research! I do find the method of obtaing blood samples Very questionable: Samples were Purchased, at a child's birthday party and without parental Knowledge or Consent.

64

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 21:46:25

The Queen was stripping at Waterloo station! = press interest = hysteria = "hang her high"
Same as!
Who said he was giving a £5er to kids for blood?
Its just crazy! as in the "Queens Strip"!
The dumbest off the dumb wouldn't do this, why would a professional? with Soo much to loose!

65

Di,

17/07/2007 22:33:23

I was under the impression that it is the preservative in vaccines that is the problem.

Can't we just have frozen vaccines? Or is it too expensive? Would someone who knows a bit about this like to comment.

66

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 22:43:39

#64 why Sooo long after this press conferene has it only come to light now?
And where are these parents?
If it had been my child "no-way" would anyone have been given the chance to VIOLATE Her/Him in such away!
And if they had, Doctor or no Doctor this would have been in the press yesterday! not now!
Plus the fact this HAS everything to do with the MMR jab!

67

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 23:05:49
68

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 23:05:55

#57
I said in another thread that a paediatrician I knew reckoned that lots of those eccentric university lecturers and genius' of the world would be classified somewhere along the autistic spectrum if someone cared to test them. I think he was probably right, but for people whose lives are severely affected by autism, the comparison between someone at the mild end of the spectrum and someone at the severe end are so extreme as to be useless.
There has been a huge rise in the diagnosis of autism in the past few years and my belief is that the increase represents greater public awareness rather than it being a new phenomenon or misdiagnosis and I think we can expect an even bigger increase in diagnoses in the future too.
In the past people with severe autism weren't seen in the community, they were the 'rockers' or 'headbangers' in lunatic asylums (I'm not being disrespectful but describing the actions) or simply locked in padded cells if they were violent. Nobody knew what to do with them, or even that intervention helped. At least we now know that it does help, and with public support there can be provision made for care and education appropriate to autistic peoples needs, since in the main, this will be done within the community rather than in a residential setting. They say that one in two autistic adults will never hold down a job, but that means that one in two will, so we need to keep aiming high for the sake of these people.

69

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 23:34:56

Suzi B, (and with public support there can be provision made for care and education appropriate to autistic peoples needs, since in the main, this will be done within the community rather than in a residential setting.) your quote!
This is Law now and not before time, may I add!
Every child/adult with any Disability, must be treated as an individual and not "LABELED" or "INSTATUSHIONALIZED" they now have equal opportunities albeit with help!

70

Bad Science,

Pueblo, Colorado 18/07/2007 05:38:43

#20 Elaine
Wouldn't you be surprised that yes indeed the amazingly sunny day and the past long periods of rain did indeed cause your headaches because of the huge increase in microwave activity affecting your environment. Actually with the nuclear graveyard that exists right outside of our atmosphere and the active arsenal of active microwave satellites combined with the vast array of technology actively in use in all our communities you have major microwave activity occurring all around you 24/7. You can't see it of course. You may remember when microwaves first came out folks who had pace makers were warned of them in use when they were present because they would override their pace makers with unwanted activity. Well now take that a step forward to the present. Now with the high technology craze using them extensively you can look at your environment and see the same effect as in your kitchen in the microwave happing outside in your local environment. Notice when you use your kitchen microwave it doesn't cook with convection like the oven, rather it cooks by heating up molecules or lets say atoms and by making them spin and then they sweat. Well when you open the microwave the food has sweated. Now outdoors our environment is sweating also from the spinning of the thermal activity from microwaves and then look at your self you are made out of molecules and atoms yourself. Well when your molecular structure heats up with this same spinning action you are very prone to aches and pains according to your bodies weaknesses. This is the oxidative effect being intensified. So are you surprised. Well you ought to be. And you might insist they turn off all the microwave activity in your neighborhood. Considering how surprised you would be to find out how much there really is, that may seem pretty drastic to turn it all off. and would you be willing too either. The folks making billions on the technology isn't going to tell you that advancements in technology that

71

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/07/2007 07:12:46

#72 Human Rights Act 1998 (children's services)

72

Di,

18/07/2007 09:48:36

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75333.php

The new study quoted here does find a link between vaccines and disorders.

73

Suzi B,

18/07/2007 09:51:10

#20 and #73.
I have already considered that and on days like Elaine describes I wear a wee hat made of tin foil as that is the time honoured way of dealing with atmospheric microwaves(and stopping the little men from Mars from stealing your thoughts!)

74

Bad Science,

Pueblo, Co 18/07/2007 18:22:58

#76

Suzi B,
You are really uneducated. Try looking it up instead of being a pacifist. The material is readily available on google, but perhaps you are not intelligent and do not know how to look it up. On the other hand, you might be into leprechauns and love wee hats. In that case enjoy.


 

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