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Doctors' leaders unite to rebut MMR fears

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Published Date:
16 July 2007
BRITAIN'S leading scientific and medical institutions today joined in support of the MMR vaccine as the doctor who sparked controversy over the jab faced disciplinary action.
The British Medical Association, the Medical Research Council and the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh were among 14 bodies signing a statement stressing their view that the jab had no link to autism.

They fear concerns over the vaccine,
which protects against measles, mumps and rubella, will re-emerge as Dr Andrew Wakefield and two of his colleagues face the General Medical Council (GMC) in London.

The case, expected to last several months, will investigate allegations over the way Dr Wakefield, Professor John Walker-Smith and Professor Simon Murch carried out their study, which suggested the MMR could cause bowel disease and autism.

Following its publication in the Lancet in 1998, many parents abandoned the jab. The research has since been discredited, with many other studies dismissing a link.

The medical organisations that signed today's statement said they wanted to restate that "a large body of scientific evidence showed no link between the MMR and autism".

Dr Philip Minor, head of virology at the National Institutes of Biological Standards and Control, said: "While Andrew Wakefield was portrayed as a crusader for truth, hundreds of scientists were spending thousands of hours investigating MMR vaccine for potential side-effects.

"A large number of studies were produced that show that MMR vaccine is not associated with autism.

"It is one of the safest, best studied vaccines and yet vaccination rates are still not as high as they were before Dr Wakefield sparked this controversy."

Last year, the GMC announced that Dr Wakefield, who now works in the United States, and his colleagues would face its fitness to practise panel. It is alleged that the three researchers failed in their duty to act in the best interests of children in their study of 12 youngsters with bowel disorders between 1996 and 1998.

At the time, they were employed at the Royal Free Hospital's medical school in London.

The allegations include that Dr Wakefield took blood samples from children at a birthday party after offering money.

All three researchers are accused of performing colonoscopies and lumbar punctures on children without proper approval and "contrary" to their clinical interests.

One of the key allegations against Dr Wakefield is that he was being paid at the time for advising solicitors on legal action by parents who believed their children had been harmed by the MMR, but he did not reveal this.

The GMC stressed that it would not be assessing the validity of the competing theories on MMR and autism, only the aspects which related to the researchers' fitness to practice.

The start of the GMC case will see up to 100 supporters of Dr Wakefield protest outside the hearing, including those travelling down from Scotland.

Jackie Fletcher, of campaign group JABS, said the researchers had been the subject of a "witchhunt".

She said: "These three doctors are being punished for doing what the government's vaccine committee should have done in the first place.

"This kind of case will just mean that other researchers are put off carrying out research into vaccines and we know there are many children damaged by vaccines in the UK."

A Scottish Executive spokes man said: "MMR is the safest, most effective way to protect all children against the risks of measles, mumps and rubella."

Should we believe the horror stories?


ANGUS and Lucy Files have four children, but only two have received the MMR jab.

They believe their nine-year-old son Geoffrey developed severe autism after having the vaccination. The couple, from Oban, are now full-time carers for their son.

Their oldest child Tom, 11, also experienced a reaction after having the vaccine, but has since developed normally.

Mr Files, 45, said his two youngest children - Angus and Arabella - would not have the MMR vaccine.

"From the day Geoffrey had MMR we saw a change in him.

"First he started having bad ear infections. Now he has very low function and is locked in a world of his own.

"He needs constant supervision," he said.

Mr Files said the family had been told Geoffrey's condition was nothing to do with MMR.

"But nobody is investigating these children. Nobody wants to know. They just want them to vanish," he said.

Mr Files said the family had concerns over the MMR jab before the research in The Lancet.

"The people who dare to speak out about MMR appear to be the ones being punished," he said.

Other families, however, have backed the MMR jab as the best way of protecting their children from serious illnesses.

Kerstin Doig said she had no hesitation about giving her son Jacob the MMR jab after considering all the evidence.

The 33-year-old from Menstrie, near Stirling, said: "I looked at all the evidence and all the scientific information was showing no link between MMR and autism.

"It just looked like there had been a lot of fuss but there was no proof that there was anything wrong with it."

Mrs Doig, who is expecting her second child later this month, said she believed a lot of the hype about MMR had been produced by the makers of single jabs for the illnesses.

"I don't know of anyone who has used the single jabs.

"The MMR was there on the NHS so we used it.

"If you are worried you could use the single vaccine, but I do not see the evidence that you should do that."

Mrs Doig said she has no hesitation about using the MMR jab with her new baby.

"I think the concerns are based on a handful of cases, but you are always going to have a number of people with autism in the population.

"For me that is no reason not to give the MMR," she said.

Q & A: THE TRIPLE VACCINE CONTROVERSY EXPLAINED
Wh

at
is the MMR vaccine?
Th
e triple vaccine protects against measles, mumps and rubella. It was introduced in the UK in 1988, replacing the need for single vaccines. Two jabs are given to provide the best protection - the first just after the child is one year old and the second before they start school.

Why
has the vaccine caused so much controversy?
In
1998, a team of researchers led by Dr Andrew Wakefield published research in The Lancet suggesting a link between MMR, autism and bowel disease. Dr Wakefield told a press conference that he believed the jabs should be given separately, spaced out over time.

What
happened as a result of the research?
Ma
ny parents became anxious when faced with the decision over whether to immunise their children with the MMR jab . Uptake fell significantly to around 80 per cent at its lowest point. In Scotland, uptake is now around 92 per cent - still below the 95 per cent recommended by the World Health Organisation.

Has
any other research looked into whether MMR leads to autism?
Si
nce 1998, many large-scale studies have found no link between MMR and autism. Autism experts have argued that the symptoms of the disorder first emerge around 13 months - the same age the jab is given. In 2004, The Lancet announced that it should never have published Dr Wakefield's paper, saying the study was flawed.

The journal said that the researcher had a serious conflict of interest because he was being paid to find evidence for possible legal cases by parents who believed their children became ill after having the MMR jab.

Ten co-authors of the original paper also issued a retraction of the interpretation of the findings.

What
are the allegations the General Medical Council is investigating?
Dr
Wakefield, and two colleagues, face a series of allegations over the way in which their study was carried out, including that Dr Wakefield took blood tests from children at a birthday party after offering money.

What
will happen to the researchers?
If
found guilty of serious professional misconduct, they could be struck off the medical register.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 July 2007 9:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Autism , MMR vaccine
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 00:33:23

Here we go again! this must be the biggest conspiracy of the century, you wont brainwash parents as you tried already on the CJD issue, give parents freedom of choice bring back the single Jabs.
You can keep whining all you like, we DONT believe a word off it!
Its age old history, if you don't know the whys or have an answer, just deny the problem exists!
That's exactly what they are trying on!

2

Doctor T,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 01:12:08

No-one is denying that there is a problem Charles.
Autism exists in young children - fact.
Autism is NOT caused by MMR despite what people may wish to believe (with blinkers on) - fact.
Uptake of MMR has recently been insufficient to ensure herd immunity - fact.
Confirmed cases of mumps, measles and rubella have risen staggeringly recently - fact.
THESE INFECTIONS ARE DANGEROUS AND TO LEAVE YOUR CHILD UNPROTECTED IS NEGLIGENT. The single jabs are not nearly as well researched as MMR and thus their own side-effects etc are not well known.

3

Black Douglass,

UK 16/07/2007 01:17:44

Autism or autistic spectrum disorder is not a disease with a single cause. If it was, then we could plausibly accept that epidemiological studies would be a significant factor in dismissing the MMR vaccine as a causal factor in some cases of autism. Reliable epidemiology depends on a root cause and a known outcome

However, the studies have not addressed this. What is certain is that autism has increased dramatically in Scotland. It is entirely without any basis in fact to dismiss any environmental factors, in addition to accepted genetic predisposition.

Instead, we are told repeatedly that the increase is "probably" due to better diagnosis and a widening of the spectrum.

The accused are eminent doctors, whose only concern was to investigate why a significant number of their patients' parents had specifically observed that their children had developed gut and neurological disturbance, following the MMR vaccine.

The GMC, in London, should look to their laurels as to why they have taken over two years to prepare a case, against these three members of their profession, and now, on the eve of their prosecution, their case has been overtly prejudiced by a timely statement from the high echelons of the medical establishment, of which the GMC are inextricably linked,which states that "The undersigned believe that the MMR triple vaccine protects the health of children. A large body of scientific evidence shows no link between the vaccine and autism."

One would hope that, at the very least, the GMC enquiry would have commenced on a level playing pitch, without such interference and timely spin from bodies, such as the Medical Research Council, The British Medical Association, Great Ormond Street children's hospital and others, who signed the above statement today.

4

Guga II,

Rockall 16/07/2007 02:50:13

Does the MMR jab still contain mercury? If so, how can anyone recommend injecting a highly toxic substance into young children?

What about it #2 Dr. T? Give us some facts on exactly what is contained in these jabs.

5

Clarindia,

Outside the tent 16/07/2007 03:13:26

Does autism never occur in children whose parents prevent them from having any form of vaccination protection from measles, mumps or rubella?
What is the incidence of autism in children who receive the single vaccinations?

Is autism never diagnosed or suspected prior to receiving the MMR vaccination?

Is the increased level of diagnostic sensitivity and accuracy related to the same increased level of those being diagnosed with autism?

With around half a million (1 in 110) - and rising, in the UK diagnosed within the spectrum of autism, whatever the cause, is there any concern that in time everyone will be autistic?

The human and financial costs of autism must be astronomical - if the suspicion that the politicians, pharmaceutical industries, doctors and nurses are united in supporting MMR (the cost of which I presume pales in comparison) - then we have to ask why would all of our children be put at such deliberate and deplorable risk and life-long suffering
if the case against MMR is as clear as some would prefer to believe?

My sister developed acute meningitis as a complication of measles, a male cousin became infertile as a consequence of mumps and millions of children world-wide die every year from these serious diseases so easily prevented. If at the moment the vast majority of medical evidence is in favour of MMR, then despite the incidence of autism that appears to be most ameanable to definative diagnosis around the timing of MMR, other alternatives for the majority's advantage appear to be of greater risk to life than MMR.

6

LameDuck,

Merseyside 16/07/2007 03:19:03

#4

Ethylmercury is present in some vaccines in a compound called thiomersal. It is used in some vaccines to keep the vaccine free of contamination. It has been used in vaccines for over 60 years and has played an important role in maintaining vaccine safety. There is NO thiomersal in MMR.

7

john montgomery,

16/07/2007 05:53:26

Japan stopped MMR in the early 90's and saw a rise in deaths and illness from these diseases but more significantly also saw a rise in autism.

8

Les Bremner,

Ayrshire 16/07/2007 08:10:05

The possible link to autism is not the point. It never was the point. The point is the lack of choice for parents. There is absolutely no reason, apart from administrative efficiency on the part of the medical profession, and greater profits for the drugs companies, in producing and distributing one bottle as opposed to three, and so giving three vaccines in one dose. Parents are concerned for the risks to their children. They do not want chemicals pumped into their babies in one go when it can be administered more slowly and gently. People are therefore, quite rightly, questioning those ‘in authority’. People simply do not want to have others dictate to them on issues which affect them, and they do not want to be told that they cannot have a choice and that they are unable, or not well enough informed, or simply not clever enough, to make choices for themselves.

9

Ralph Kramden,

16/07/2007 08:23:15

Autism has increased greatly in the United States over the past decade. There has been no corresponding rise in the number of kids receiving MMR vaccines.

A 2007 Centers for Disease Control report found that 1 in 150 children in America today have an autism spectrum disorder (ASD).

This debate over MMR does these kids no favours. Focus must be shifted to investigae WHY ASD numbers are on the increase.

10

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 08:24:20

Spare a thought for those who vaccintate the innocent kids as they cant think for themselves.

Just a reminder of some of the questions unanswered bythe goverments /pharma mouthpiece Michael Fitzpatrick over the years.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/328/7455/1571

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/330/7500/1154

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/331/7525/1148

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/333/7560/205-a

11

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 08:26:00

Many good points above, and much ruthless hypocrisy from the establishment. While the GMC hearing is purportedly not about the science they all assemble as man in advance to condemn Andrew Wakefield. The interesting question is what kind of message it sends. If something goes wrong with your child's vaccination will they listen? And if any doctor dare step out of line and show concern, what will hapen to them?

This is an ugly day.

12

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 16/07/2007 08:35:03

#8

Hmm but which parents should have choice?

Those who don't vaccinate their children?

Those who whose children get infected because parent won't vaccinate their children?

This is not a simple freedom of choice issue - parents who deliberately don't get their offspring vaccinated are putting other children at risk by their actions.

13

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 16/07/2007 08:39:27

#9

Totally agree - there needs to be serious research into the rise into Autism.

Is it also any co-incidence that there has been rises in ADD, ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome as well?

One wonders what role diet and additives have played?

14

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:00:47

If you take the autism figure the ADHD figure and the Aspergers figure as one.If you had a family of five EVERY 2nd and 5th child would have a dignosis of either one of the above central nervous systm problems above,autism ,ADHD, or Aspergers.And thats the dignosed kids try and get a dignosis for autims it took us two years and our child is glaringly Autistic.And out of this BILLION POUND AUTISM INDUSTRY NOT ONE CHILD HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED TO SEE WHAT THE CAUSEL OF THE SYMPTOMS ARE.Hitler killed less children than these vaccines are now killing.

15

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 09:04:01

My son has been recently diagnosed with ASD. After looking at all the evidence 3 years ago we decided to go with the MMR jab and have since had our daughter immunised.
However, I think that those who bleat about a 'conspiracy' theory are doing a great disservice to those with ASD and those who will develop it in future, as it distracts attention and research which is best focussed on finding the real 'culprits' - additives, environmental pollutants, whatever.
No matter what the scientific evidence, there will always be those who shout 'conspiracy' - just look at climate change, evolution, Diana and even the moon landings. Some amateur internet experts ALWAYS know better than the professional researchers in the field.....

16

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 16/07/2007 09:07:13

#14

I agree with your point that there has been little or no investigation into the causes of Autism.

However you then contradict yourself by saying that the vaccines are killing children. If there has been little or no research no-one knows the cause - no-one knows if it is the MMR vaccine or something else.

17

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 16/07/2007 09:08:00

#15 I could not have put it better myself.

18

,

16/07/2007 09:12:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 788153, Article id was mapped to record!
19

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:24:17

The Urabe MMR http://www.whale.to/vaccine/mmr15.html

The internal documents from the Government's Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation also reveal reports that another brand of MMR had caused "neurological complications" from the measles component of the vaccine in the US. Despite this, from 1988 both brands were administered routinely without any warnings of serious risk until they were withdrawn four years later - because of health fears.

So one day you all will have to come and join me

20

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:24:51

Please sign this petition

"The Nigel Thomas Petition"
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/GMC/.
Click on to the above and sign the petition.
There is also a link to the video so don't forget to watch it.

21

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:26:23

MMR JUDGE FAILED TO DISCLOSE HE WAS BROTHER OF Glaxo SmithKline(makers of MMR) DIRECTOR AND LANCET BOSS

http://www.jabs.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=663

22

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:27:26

In March 2007, Dr Vernon Coleman wrote to the National Autistic Society asking why the society accepts funding from GlaxoSmithKline?
Dr Coleman,s letters and reply from the NAS can be viewed on the 'Health' section of his website which includes further reading on
vaccines:- www.vernoncoleman.com/main.htm

Personally I have never found the National Autistic Society much help

23

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 09:28:52

...for receiving bribes from drug companies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/business/worldbusiness/...

"Why are the friends who gave me money all the bosses of pharmaceutical companies?" he wrote in his [confession] letter, entitled How I Look on My Mistakes. "Obviously because I was in charge of drug administration."....."There were so many companies going to him and he simply couldn't resist the temptation," said one drug company executive who befriended Mr. Zheng in the 1980s and did not want to be identified

24

Mar,

At work 16/07/2007 09:58:01

Propaganga!

If its cheaper for the government then of course 'studies' will show its safe.

Why is it banned in Japan?

25

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 09:58:48

Private Eye

8 June - 21 June 2007

MMR
Conflict of Interest Zone

Red faces at the General Medical Council (GMC), which next month will decide whether Dr Andrew Wakefield is to be struck off for allegedly failing to declare a conflict of interest between his research and his role as an expert in the MMR litigation.

The man chosen to chair the GMC's disciplinary panel deciding Dr Wakefield's fate and that of two of his former colleagues at London's Royal Free Hospital, has an unfortunate clash of interest of his own.

Prof Denis McDevitt, a clinical pharmacologist, once sat on the government advisory committee that looked at adverse reactions to vaccinations and immunisations and considered issues of MMR safety. He attended meetings that discussed warnings from other countries about an early form of the triple jab, using the Urabe strain of mumps virus, which caused encephalitis and meningitis.

Despite warnings and the fact that this vaccine had already been withdrawn in Canada, the Urabe-containing jab was introduced in the UK in 1988. After it caused meningitis and encephalitis in children, it was finally withdrawn in 1992 and replaced with the safer - and more expensive - MMR II. (Eye readers may recall how the drug manufacturers off-loaded their dodgy vaccine to Brazil where a hospital in Salvador was said to have been "saturated" with encephalitis cases.)

Some of the 12 children whose medical history featured in the controversial 1998 Lancet paper, drawn up by Dr Wakefield and his colleagues and which suggested a possible link between the jab and bowel disease and regressive autism, had received the Urabe-strain vaccine - as indeed had some of those children in the high court litigation with manufacturers.

In fact another embarrassing clash of interest has arisen in the law courts too. Parents who claimed their children were damaged by the vaccine have complained that Mr Justice Davis, the judge w

26

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 10:04:07

London Evening Standard 09/05/2007

MMR judge faces probe over brother's link to vaccine firm

The Londoner's Diary, Evening Standard, May 9 2007.

You might have thought that a judge presented with a case regarding MMR vaccines and the link to autism would declare that his brother was a director of MMR vaccine manufacturer Glaxo SmithKline Beecham. But you would be wrong.

Sir Nigel Davis was the judge who, three years ago, rejected an appeal by MMR vaccine litigants against the decision not to award funding for their legal campaign. But he failed to mention his interests in the subject.

Now, complaints against him are being filed to the Office for Judicial Complaints, which investigates allegations of any questionable conduct by judges, coroners and magistrates.

Davis's brother, Sir Crispin Davis, was appointed a non-executive director of drugs multinational Glaxo Smith Kline in 2003, a year before the appeal came to court. Asked why Sir Nigel did not declare this, his spokesman said: "The possibility of any interest arising from his brother's position did not occur to him."

But Sir Crispin's potential links with MMR vaccines goes back longer than that, as since 1999 he had been CEO of Reed Elsevier, the publishing company which owns The Lancet magazine.

Although The Lancet had originally published research into the links between autism and MMR by Dr Andrew Wakefield in 1998, by 2004 the magazine regretted ever having done so. The Lancet had announced its change of heart only the week before Sir Nigel was due to make his decision on the MMR litigants' appeal, sparking a sudden backlash against the theory in the media, and prompting the Prime Minister to say "There is absolutely no evidence to support this link between MMRand autism".

The quashing of the MMR litigants case would have a huge relief to the government, who could have faced massive pay outs had they successfully sued the drug

27

jj,

16/07/2007 10:20:21

They don'y admit that they have had to change the MMR formula because of so much adverse reaction. Fact.

28

jj,

16/07/2007 10:22:35

MMR concerns began long before the report that is the subject of so much Government/Lancet pro-MMR spin.

As a parent, with a 1997 child we mostly were concerned with the number of autism cases in children we were encountering not only through media stories but also through personal contact.

As a mathematician, my greatest concern at the time was the lack answers to real questions by government.

You need only look to some clear facts for your lines of enquiry -

Less than 4 people per 100,000 contracted mumps pre-MMR and the rate was progressing to even lower figures. Now, even with the MMR, 1 in 100,000 contract mumps - a figure that would possibly have been reached using pre-MMR processes. A risk of 7 - 30 children nationwide catching mumps is no reason to force thousands of adverse MMR reactions - some very serious (1 in 500 hospitalised) - on our children.

Mumps may on occasion have scary consequences. But why when so few catch it do we risk so much adverse reaction amongst young children by loading their systems with three treatments using the MMR.

Measles is the real high risk factor. Allow single jabs. Treat the real problem first.

29

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 10:25:04

#24 - You're correct - MMR IS banned in Japan... and autism rates continue to rise.

#19-#26 - The conspiracy theorists are out in force today.... The thing is - it just takes one good piece of research to prove you right, but without exception, every peer reviewed comprehensive study, everywhere in the world, has found no link. True, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence, but the more studies that fail to find a link between MMR and ASD, the less likely there is to be one.
Of course - you may be right, and every scientific study everywhere in the world, and all our medical bodies and governments are in cahoots..... and maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by the CIA and the moon landings were faked!

30

Les Bremner,

Ayrshire 16/07/2007 10:42:46

Is the author of #12 advocating compulsory medication? What will be the punishment for those who decline?

31

Disgruntled of Dalgety,

Dalgety Bay 16/07/2007 10:44:49

When MMR vaccination declined in the UK cases of Autism continued to rise. Will the conspiracy theorists please explain why?

32

Les Bremner,

Ayrshire 16/07/2007 10:54:04

#31 - It is nothing to do with autism, that is a smokescreen and a diversion. It is to do with freedom of choice for our babies; it is a question of being given a choice of three separate jabs or one triple jab. One must assume that the three constituent parts are manufactured in separate prcesses, then put in the one bottle at the end. At the result of being facetious, if this is a desire to save packaging, it is in very poor taste!

By the way, why are people who dare to question the published spin accused not only of seeing a conspiracy, but also the conspiracy is not fact but merely a theory?

33

Les Bremner,

Ayrshire 16/07/2007 10:56:02

Sorry, that sentence should have read "At the risk of being facetious..."

34

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 11:07:08

#32 It's about informed choice. The medical profession - whether NICE or our Scottish equivalent, make professional judgements on the efficacy of medical treatments across the board almost on a daily basis, and they use scientific evidence to back up these judgements. Are you saying that every medicine / vaccine ever produced, of all varieties should be freely available? In this field, as in so many others, we rely on professional advice. Sure, even experts sometimes get things wrong, but the evidence against MMR / ASD link is getting to the overwhelming stage. The problem is, we all like simple solutions to any problem, and with something as seemingly 'random' as ASD we have a psycological need to find not only the cause, but also someone to blame --- in this case the worldwide medical profession, our government and the bad old drug companies...

As far as it being all about packaging, yes it is facetious - it is all about limiting exposure time for our children. If we say that giving 3 simultaneous innoculations is too much for the body, then we mean that we have to space them out. This leaves our children vulnerable to these serious infectious diseases for longer. Not down to packaging costs - I think our Government, for the many failings that they have, would not balk at the cost, especially just having increased NHS spending by £40 billion or so over the last decade..

35

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 11:10:02

Flash 67 (post 29)

The situation in Japan was that MMR uptake dwindled because of the meningitis outbreak and the autism rate fell off with it. When single jabs were reintroduced they were given together, while Wakefield's advice was that they should be spread out, so the effect was the same as increased exposure to MMR, and the autism rate shot up. In context the evidence of the Honda study supported more concern, and did not refute Wakefield at all.

People are quite happy, of course, to level conspiracy charges against Wakefield. But Government was always white than white in the Blair era. We know that. And the pharmaceutical companies always put humanity before profit. We know that, too.

36

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 11:28:14

#35 - simply not true - the graph in this study shows that as MMR fell (and before single shots were introduced) ASD continued to rise, irrespective. http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html


Also, a consiracy by definition, involves many people, so you cannot accuse Wakefield of a conspiracy. Governments, including ours, are less than honest, but can you honestly see ALL governments and EVERY researcher and ALL drug companies and ALL the scientific journals and ALL national and international medical organisations getting their collective heads together to fib to us??
Think of Occam's Razor - ther maxim that states that the simplest explanation is most likely to be the truth. In this case, the simplest explanation is that there is no link between MMR and ASD.

37

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 11:30:56

#37 - and did I mention, I have a young son recently diagnosed as ASD. I researched the subject beforehand, and chose to give him the MMR vaccine, and would do the same again. This false controversy, like that on global warming, is causing actual harm by slowing progress towards a REAL solution...

38

siusaidh,

16/07/2007 11:39:04

*2
Perhaps you like to add to your facts, that there are now many people around, who are fit and healthy and never had an MMR [I for 1...and I did have had all 3 , a friend of mine never been vaccinated nor her family members or any of her 5 children, who never been ill enough to have needed to visit a doctor...all of them are very healthy without vaccinations].
It's controversial because big pharma companies are making big bugs out of it.
The fact also remains, that in states of US ,where children do not get vaccinated, autisum does not exist.
The other fact remains, that vaccinations /jabs contain mercury.
Another fact is, that there have been mistakes made recently with health authority's /GP 's given out of date vaccinations.

39

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 11:56:53

Flash

I think you may have got year of birth confused with year of vaccination. I believe that in Japan the effect was marked but I am not claiming (and Wakefield certainly isn't claiming) that MMR is an exclusive cause of autism (which is a rather catch-all term). The problem is that doctors have to be free to investigate environmental triggers for the disorder, and what is being done to Wakefield is sending messages to the rest of the profession.

In our case our son had a very bad reaction to DPT (75 micrograms mercury over 8 weeks, equivalent to 1mg perhaps in an adult), and as ever we were told to ignore it.

I do not know the answers on global warming, but what I do know is that anyone who claims the autism epidemic is "better diagnosis" is depending on very low levels of evidence, and it is a smokescreen.

40

tomfrom66,

Blackpool, UK 16/07/2007 11:58:51

#2 Doctor T - Is the BMA using it very best endeavours to ensure the fullest possible help and support for those with Autism, or are autistic people "collateral damage" in the pursuit of a fully vaccinated population?

41

MC-B Fife,

Fife 16/07/2007 12:06:47

You can never prove that anything is absolutely safe, you can only show that the evidence that is not a cause of harm is increasingly likely using properly conducted clincal trials. The allegation that the MMR vaccine causes autism is not not supported by such trials. We had this same conspiracy scene over the whooping cough vaccine some years ago and it took several whooping cough deaths to show that this was a very much more likely outcome than any brain damage.

42

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 12:23:49

MC-BB

I would not recommend pertussis vaccine after our experience. It is, incidentally, totally ineffective. Doctors are just waking up to the reality that whooping cough is rife in the population but had not been diagnosed properly for years because it was assumed to be eradicated. This is not me making it up - it was an MRC study published in BMJ last year. I am sure their answer will be to vaccinate even more.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/333/7560/174

43

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 12:50:03

#40 John -
I would agree with you that the increased diagnostics are not the only reason for more ASD being reported and that there IS an environmental factor out there. Hopefully, more researchers will do quality research, and that when they DO find a likely culprit, they will be cautious about trumpeting that they have 'found' THE cause of ASD. Wakefield is not being investigated because of his conclusions (whatever the conspiracy theorists think!) but rather because of his methods of research.

44

James Kelly,

Scotland 16/07/2007 13:06:56

Les, you say there is no choice, but people can choose to have the free option of MMR on the NHS, or pay for individual jabs. As a father of a 10 month old this is something I'm having to seriously think about. The question which always come to mind is, why is this the only piece of research to come up with a link?

45

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 13:42:25

Flah and not one parent complained despite the GMC asking them several times "you must complain" and trying to make these parents feel guilty for not complaing.Look at the television today and see the massive support Dr. Andy Wakefield, MB BS FRCS FRCPath, and is an academic gastroenterologist. has had ...is the parent not alway right when it comes to health of a child.

One day you will join us when you wake up to the fact vaccines cause autism .The amish community have fifteen thousand un vaccinated children and do not vaccintate and they have no child with autism,asthma,etc etc etc.

People need to wake up

46

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 14:30:48

James Kelly (post 45)

The rate of research, and more particularly, publication has been greatly slowed by official hostility. Also very interesting is the official obsession with the 1998 paper. Nevertheless, there is quite a lot else:

http://www.vaproject.org/thrower/mmr-briefing-20070430.htm

47

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 15:27:04

#46 - re the Amish - you could equally argue that ASD is caused by any of the thousand other things that the Amish are not exposed to - like fumes from cars, or food preservatives, or pesticides, or television or electricity or mobile phones or modern medicines or ...... They are also genetically different from the outside world and suffer from high rates of dwarfism and twins....
One of the first things any science undergraduate learns is that "Correlation is no proof of cause and effect" i.e. a high incidence of beards in the Amish community and low ASD rate does NOT prove that that shaving causes ASD.

48

Tavish,

South of the border 16/07/2007 15:47:42

AN AUTISTIC CHILD IN THE HOME.
Our diary shows that our son started to show odd behaviour and symptoms WITHIN A WEEK of receiving his MMR. He is now 24 and was eventually diagnosed as autistic.
Thousands of parents in UK have had similar experiences. Coincidence? Really?
At one time, the medical profession told us that thalidomide was totally safe.
Franky I believe that MMR is implicated in the development of autism.
No amount of posturing by the "experts" will convince many parents otherwise.

49

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 15:54:42

Flash

This recent survey may be of interest. Vaccinated boys two and half times more likely to have neurological development disorders than controls.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

No one is saying this is absolute proof but it is a legitimate cause of concern. Also look at asthma.

50

AD in sunny Livingston,

16/07/2007 15:55:00

Autism doesn't appear to be the only "risk" factor in giving children MMR. The child of a very close friend of mine developed life-threatening epilepsy shortly after receiving the MMR. After years of tests and many, many fits which have hospitalised this child a consultant at the children's hospital stated that he highly suspects the MMR to be the direct cause of the child's condition.

Also - to the parents of children who have received the MMR - don't become complacent and think that your child will never catch measles, mumps or rubella. A friend of one of my children had a particularly severe dose although he had been immunised.

51

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 16:07:59

#49
...and my own video tapes show my son displaying ASD typical signs 1 month before his MMR...
We have truly entered the generation of the "internet expert" where qualifications and professional experience and research count for nothing for those who can "google" an answer at the touch of a button. As I said before, correlattion is no proof of cause and effect and psudoscience and 'gut feelings' are no substitute for real evidence. Those of us with kids / relatives with ASD desperately want to find a 'why?' and, being human, someone to blame, even if it is ourselves. My own gut feeling is that the evidence will eventually point towards one of the many chemicals we have associated with modern living - food additives, plastics, petrol fumes, pesticides, fertilisers - there are thousands of candidates lining up there. I think if there was any strong link, the huge amount of research thrown at the MMR/ASD link would have thrown up more results by now....

52

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 16:29:47

#50 - interesting study, although I didn't see any control groups mentioned, so the survey is just that - a survey. One thing that springs to mind is that the immunisation rates in Oklahoma are a lot lower than in California, (av. 72% in the counties mentioned in Oklahoma vs 91% average in California) and so most of the children without immunisations would come from the rural part of the survey. I doubt that anyone would say that the same amounts / variety of environmental pollutants are present in both areas, and this alone would make the survey worthless. Basic science. And there is also the small point that the survey was commissioned by a campaigning group who already believe in the MMR / ASD link, and it was THEY, not the survey company that chose the counties to survey. As far as I can see, these fundamental flaws render the 'study' worthless.

53

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 16/07/2007 16:33:19

#52 I think most sensible people would agree that no-one really knows the true cause of the rise in cases of autism (as well as ADD, AHD & Asperger's). What is needed now is proper research withoutout there being a vested interest.

54

Flash67,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 16:40:00

#54 - Very true, but my worry is that we focus on chasing what increasingly seems to be a red-herring. Good, well controlled epidemiological and clinical research is needed to pin the cause of this down.
Another thing we also need is good research into the effectiveness of the myriad of treatments and 'cures' for ASD out there. As a parent, the first question I asked was 'why?' the second was 'what can I do to help him?' There was almost as much shoulder shrugging with the second as the first...

55

Tavish,

South of the border 16/07/2007 16:57:28

#52 The aptly named Flash 67 gives an unhelpful smartass answer?
TIME FOR A PROPER TEST STUDY?
Our son showed a significant change in behaviour - dramatic enough to be noticeable, immediately after the MMR. Coincidence? Maybe. Many many other parents have also noted a correlation.
Why hasn't the medical profession set up a simple test. Take 5000 male children and give them the MMR triple Vaccine. Statistics will show that around 80 of them will go on to develop ASD sysmptoms. So monitor the group carefully (sure we should include girls and a dummy group too), and look at the date of the onset of symptoms and the date of vaccination. Any connection?
As far as I am aware, no such research has ever been carried out. Why not?
Not earth shattering research - but the government continues to run away from the problem and spins (sorry-- proclaims) there is no correlation nor connection, citing other research, most of which was not set up to look at causation. Meanwhile Dr Andrew Wakefield is vilified for trying to find an answer.

56

,

16/07/2007 17:24:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 790140, Article id was mapped to record!
57

Hamish Mair,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 17:32:38

This newspaper in common with the majority of the media has made a blanket statement that many studies have found no link between the MMR and autism.

Rather than uncritically accepting this in the interests of keeping measles cases down, we should be asking what is causing the dramatic upswing in ASD and is the gut dysbiosis frequently found in children with ASD significant and if so could this in some children be precipitated by external agents such as the MMR or the heavy metals (mercury) previously used with this and is this consistent with the other known insults associated with ASD including antibiotics for ear infections. The MRC has done no research in this area, yet the pain and distress of ASD sufferers and their families continues. One person died of measles last year. ASD claims and ruins the lives of thousands every year. Lives which could be saved or improved if the research was done instead of punishing someone (Wakefield) who may possibly be groping in the right direction. As a parent of an Autistic child who was given the MMR after the scare, because we followed the official line, I feel we have a right to detailed answers to these questions - if the answer is that the medical profession doesn't know yet, then they should undertake the detailed research rather than steamroller the lay public with increasingly shrill denials that there is anything wrong whilst refusing to consider that they may not yet understand the full picture.

58

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 18:43:14

Flash

The biases you suggest in the Generation Rescue study - if the countryside is significantly less polluted than the town - would not accout for a ratio of 2.5 to 1. It would suggest at the very least that there is something worth looking at further. The study was commissioned by Generation Resue and conducted by a reputable independent firm. What is more significant is that is that it was not conducted by the Centers for Disease Control which has become a by-word for incompetence and corruption, and has not done this basic work:prevaricates about doing it endlessly.

As soon as vaccine is mentioned the medical authorities get hot under the collar, and this is a source of scientific bias. They just don't want to do it. I think I can guess why.

59

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 18:45:14

Flash all day everyone has substantiated autism/mmr tip over to cause Autism to this condition you have not apart from epidemiology studies JUGGLING OF FIGURES and we all know figures can be made to what you want .Evidence investigation looking at patients is different ,you have provided no actual investigation/evidence into patients /kids you have referred to .Do you not think its time you stuck your head in a microwave (you probably still have one) and cook your brain if its not already cooked which itr looks like going by your postings As YOU CANT OBVIOUSLY THINK FOR YOURSELF don’t worry we will spare a thought for you and your denial .LOOK AT THE MASSIVE SUPPORT FOR DR WAKEFIELD FROM PARENTS WITH AUTISTIC KIDS AND GRANDPARENTS.PARENTS KNOW BEST

60

ARP,

Scotland 16/07/2007 18:46:32

48 Flash 67
Of course you are correct in saying that correlation and causation are not the same thing and when looking for THE cause of such an ill-defined disorder as autism, surely we are looking for unattainable certainty - Occam's Razor notwithstanding! But let's say that there were to be found a very close corrrelation between the incidence of autism and the alcoholic intake of the mother during pregnancy - do you think that that would stall the MMR debate - no way!
Even the argument put up by the establishment that 'the overwhelming body of expert opinion' states such and such, should carry no real weight - of course the earth is flat and of course the sun rises in the east and scurries acroos to the west each day - as everyone can see with their own eyes. so what's all this about a spherical rotating earth? The days of scientific certainty ended with David Hume, so a bit more caution on all sides of this argument would not come amiss.

61

I GAVE BLAIR THE FINGER LAST WEEK,

16/07/2007 18:51:10

FLSH IN THE PAN LOOK AT THIS SUCK IT AND SEE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okwyCPz_tKI

62

scotsmind,

earthgrandmother 16/07/2007 20:44:02

Out of 12 grandchildren, 1 seriously affected within weeks of receiving the triple vaccine in America. Not so his siblings. Though there well may be other interracting factors (diet, air quality, etc.), it is very hard to understand why more precise testing between the jab and Asperger's Syndrome/Autism has not been undertaken, and published.

Even those averse to conspiracy theories have raised valid issues here.

63

John Stone,

London N22 16/07/2007 22:55:04

#53

Flash, for all the pose as a fastidious scientist you have completey lost me with your remark that you don't see any control groups mentioned. The control group was the unvaccinated.

64

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 23:03:36

#63 scotsmind, I will tell you why!
Because they are "POINT BLANK" Blinded!
Its the "CAVE MAN" approach!
We don't know for sure!
We cant answer that!
We are told to save money!
Drug Company influence!
We are too"BRAINWASHED" to believe any new evidence!
And it goes on!
Put it this way, why did the Health Minister come on TV and say "look at my children eating beefburgers!" NO chance you can get CJD "madcow disease"
BLINDED IDIOT is the word!
To have told anyone in 1900 there would be mobile phones, you would be rounded up and hung for being mad!
Its the same as the MMR jab!
WE JUST DONT BELEIVE IT CAUSE WE ARENT INTELGENT ENOUGH YET ON THIS ONE!
Deny it! and "HANG THEM HIGH"
Its a "CAVEMAN" approach NOTHING LESS!

65

siusaidh,

16/07/2007 23:29:09

*52
Why not add, injecting mercury into a 1 year old to all those additives?
There bound to be some connection, considering children are falling ill shortly after having been given the MMR.

66

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/07/2007 23:54:46

#66 don't waste you breath!
"IGNORENCE" Has murdered billions upon billions off people since our existence of the human race!
This is one of these times "IGNORENCE" shows its ugly head again!
Give my child the MMR jab and she or he is never the same again, "speaks volumes"

Why not listen and investigate the children of these families that have been affected by the MMR jab?
The reason is "IGNORENCE" and "HELL BENT" on their view!
Same as "HITLER" Kill! because we don't understand and are "IGNORENT"
We Know better "GAS THE LOT"!!
Its the same principle as the CAVEMEN approach!
Human maybe but animal more like!

67

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 00:21:05

They used to believe wholeheartedly that sudden infant death syndrome was caused by the vaccinations babies received because the peak rate of deaths corresponded with the first set of vaccinations. More research and the 'back to sleep' campaign, with the resultant dramatic drop in the death rate saw the disappearance of that belief. Until such times as this happens with autism, this belief will persist. The timing of the MMR at 12 to 15 months of age, corresponds with the age children are becoming verbal and interactive with the world around them, and if a child is autistic or has Aspergers, this is also the age where any deficit is going to become apparent. I agree with a previous poster who said that people naturally need a 'why' when their child is diagnosed with A.S.D, and look round for answers.

68

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/07/2007 00:34:52

#68 Hi Suzi B, but they also accused 1000s of Woman they killed their Baby! because the Medical profeshion were ignorent off SIDS
just a thought and for you no belly rumbles! ;-)

69

John Stone,

London N22 17/07/2007 00:56:42

Suzi B

Sally Clark went to jail. Her two month old baby Harry, although unwell was given five vaccines and died five hours later: prosecution witness Sir Roy Meadow was on the adverse vaccine reactions committee ARVI in the 1980s, despite which vaccine as a cause was neither considered nor investigated.

How many other mothers might be in jail on this basis? The Clark case became known because it was tried in public and not in the family courts.

70

RichardM,

Alabama 17/07/2007 14:16:24

52-
I feel you are only partially correct with your denegration of people who can read as "internet experts" and who can "google" the facts, studies, charts; etc., which are linked through the internet. It is true that they (we) are not scientists in the truest sense or training; but they can read, understand, and analyze the data available and can draw conclusions. Furthermore, our government leaders and the pharmacutical company owners are in it to make a living. They are human and make mistakes but they will rarely admit it; people that make mistakes frequently get fired. So we get a lot of song and dance to deflect it from themselves. Sadly, the same thing happens here in the US. Even more sadly, the real scientists and researchers, who are in the "trenches" doing the "real" work are the ones who are often dismissed and all their work may remain hidden for years or decades. We, as citizens of our countries, should raise such a "hubbub" (outcry) with our "elected" officials that proper studies and discussions will occur so that the real truth will be uncovered, or we will elect someone who will!

71

Suzi B,

17/07/2007 15:24:23

#69 Hi Charles. Glad I got off lightly on that one!
To be fair, I think that accusing parents of smothering their babies who died of SIDS came before the blame got laid at the doors of the vaccinations.

I just worry that we might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater on the MMR/Vaccination debate.
I think we need to keep looking for answers and not just stop at the most obvious reasons put forward. If we could identify which babies are most vulnerable to developing autism it would be a start.
It is likely that the answer to autism is every bit as complex as the SIDS issue. At least people accept that autism exists and aren't accusing the parents of causing it, like they did with SIDS. Maybe the medical profession is moving forward, who would know.

72

Aasa,

Toronto, Canada 17/07/2007 15:34:01

A comparison of the Japanese and USA childhood vaccination schedules can be found at the following link:
http://www.vaclib.org/basic/japanusa.htm


 

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