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Threats add new tension to Korean war of words

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Published Date: 28 May 2009
NORTH Korea has threatened military action against South Korean and US warships plying the waters near the Koreas' disputed maritime border, raising the possibility of a naval clash just days after the regime's underground nuclear test.
Pyongyang, reacting angrily to Seoul's decision to join an international programme to intercept ships suspected of aiding nuclear proliferation, called the move tantamount to a declaration of war.

"Now that the South Korean puppets were so ridiculous as to join in the said racket and dare declare a war against compatriots", North Korea is "compelled to take a decisive measure", the Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea said in a statement.

The North Korean army called it a violation of the armistice the Koreas signed in 1953 to end their three-year war, and said it would no longer honour the treaty.

South Korea's military said it was prepared to "respond sternly" to any North Korean provocation.

North Korea's latest belligerence comes as the UN Security Council debates how to punish the regime for testing a nuclear bomb on Monday. Ambassadors from the five permanent council members – the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France – as well as Japan and South Korea were working out the details of a resolution.

The success of any sanctions would depend on how aggressively China, one of North Korea's only allies, implements them. "It's not going too far to say that China holds the keys on sanctions," said Kim Sung-han, international relations professor at Seoul's Korea University.

South Korea, had responded to the nuclear test by joining the Proliferation Security Initiative, a network of nations seeking to stop ships from transporting nuclear bomb materials.

Seoul previously resisted joining the PSI in favour of seeking reconciliation with Pyongyang, but pushed those efforts aside this week after the nuclear test in the north-east.

North Korea warned yesterday that any attempt to stop, board or inspect its ships would constitute a "grave violation".

The regime said it could no longer promise the safety of US and South Korean warships and civilian vessels in the waters near the western maritime border.

"They should bear in mind that the (North] has tremendous military muscle and its own method of strike able to conquer any targets in its vicinity at one stroke or hit the US on the raw, if necessary," the army said.

North Korea disputes the maritime border drawn by the UN at the end of the Korean War, and has demanded it be redrawn further south. It has used the border dispute to provoke naval skirmishes in 1999 and 2002. Yesterday, it promised "unimaginable and merciless punishment" for anyone challenging its ships.

The South Korean newspaper Chosun Ilbo said spy satellites detected signs of steam at the North's Yongbyon nuclear complex, indicating it may be reprocessing nuclear fuel.


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  • Last Updated: 27 May 2009 9:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: North Korea
 
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28/05/2009 00:40:30
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 00:44:44
China holds the keys to sanctions. China also holds the key to peace. Which to use? A nuclear war on our border or a stable, growing economy on our border? Which to want? Blood bath on the peninsula, millions of civillians at risk, likely hundreds of thousands to flee into China and disrupt our country - phew, tough choice.
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Alan B,

28/05/2009 00:48:18
NK are doing this to test and exploit the perceived weakness of Obama. Being seen to be weak and not willing to act can lead to more problems than if they think you are lunatic enough to deal with the problems and issues in a more robust way.

Ironically NK would never have done this during bushs tenour as they knew cheney and rumsfeld were mental.
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Alan B,

28/05/2009 00:51:56
#Mashimaro

China is part of the problem and is part of the reason NK is such a problem area.
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wicked_grey,

Miami, FL 28/05/2009 01:16:46
#3, Alan,

"Ironically NK would never have done this during bushs tenour as they knew cheney and rumsfeld were mental."

North Korea tested their first nuclear weapon in 2006, during Mr. Bush's presidency.
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2dogs in D.C.,

28/05/2009 01:19:00
Tough choice,indeed,Mashimaro-But remember,just how many times has N.K.rattled it's sword in the past fifteen years? And how many times acted through? Funny thing,to me,is the Nuke tests happened a lot closer to you than to S.K.And threats of war? what with the rampant starvation/malnutrition/disease up there,I wonder if the poor average N.K. could open a pocket knife,let alone humpmp ruck and rifle?Now,you've read and crossed verbal swords w/me before,and you know(or should)how I feel about wars in general.So,please-reel in your mad dog,North Korea.It could get WAY too ugly.
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2dogs in D.C.,

28/05/2009 01:20:43
Funny how the auto censor here refuses to acknowledge the common term for a camel water storage area.
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GibsonAustralia,

Sydney 28/05/2009 01:43:03
Whitecaps and the rest of you young chaps who look to China as an answer for any kind of troubles.
China IS the problem.
She keeps the violence in the region going for her own plans for conquest.
Theres a huge spy game going on between China and the West which in the end leads to Chinas invasion of the region.
And its not Americas fault.
Its to do with Chinas demon ambition for more land and to imprison more people under the Red flag.

As the years pass...watch China!
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28/05/2009 02:43:27
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28/05/2009 03:01:39
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 03:11:39
Black And White Bart in #10 is correct that China did not create this problem. Contrary to the fears of Gibson in #8 China doesn't really arrange its resources to attack others. Whether China is such a tyrant in Tibet is a subjective judgement. China doesn't have troops in 70 countries the way the US does. China does have troops in some countries like Panama, we read even Mexico and some african countries. China now controls the Panama Canal because it has lots of troops right there. The US does not. China doesn't start wars systematically as the US does.

I hope that a war does not develop with North Korea, but it could. The US frequently seeks people to have wars with, they are not above building up an adversary for the sake of taking them down. In this way they can build their own dominance. As I've explained the US actually built North Korea's nuclear reactors and gave them a huge amount of grain, some of which they sold for money.

Wars are planned in advance by instigators who do it very cleverly so that when the war breaks out it seems like a surprise. War is very profitable for some people and it facilitates political changes that some people favor.
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28/05/2009 03:32:18
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28/05/2009 04:04:52
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28/05/2009 04:10:56
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 04:28:11
double dog...
You reel in YOUR mad dog. You get YOUR mad dog to deliver on its broken promises so that North Korea can get back on its feet after YOUR mad dog levelled it in its ilegal war. You tell YOUR mad dog to stop trying to grab North Korea by the throat and shake it down. Tell YOUR mad dog to move its battle ships and change its nuclear policy which Bush changed to allow it to strike North Korea. You tell YOUR mad dog to give North Korea the assurance that it wants - that the US won't attack it.
North Korea has NOTHING left to lose.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 04:29:24
Hey, whatever happen to old Dragonbreath, ooops sorry, I meant Dragonhead. he was your mate Posty, were did he go?
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 04:31:21
Geez, rough crowd in here tonight.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 04:33:45
Posty, how about "The Red Dragon" for your next name when this one gets booted off. It's you mate, honest. Would I lie to you?
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 04:36:01
#3 AlanB ... Ironically... North Korea came within a hare's breath of war with the US under Bush's leadership. If it hadn't been for Jimmy Carter the peninsula and most of that part of Asia would have been awash with blood.
Bush had no qualms about condemning millions to death. In fact he and his war criminals were very disappointed when he wasn't able to. Only Carter and China managed to stop that.
It is, in fact, directly due to Bush's stupid saber rattling and childish bullying that North Korea got around to making a nuclear weapon in the first place you eejit. Do you think this just started when Obama was elected? It's been years in the making.
China is one huge part of the solution. Right now we and Russia are the only people in the world who can prevent a very very nasty war that will drag Japan and Taiwan and the US into unprecedented horror. So you be nice to us and give us face.
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W Smith,

Middle East 28/05/2009 04:39:29
During the Korean War, when North Korean troops retreated from Seoul they executed Korean women and children.

Don't forget folks, its all George Bush's fault and I'm sure Cheney and Halliburton were some how involved and Israel and Thatcher and Britain and the Queen and the Freemasons and WASPs everywhere.

DON'T ASK FOR DETAILS - THAT JUST SPOILS THE ARGUEMENT.
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28/05/2009 04:41:16
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28/05/2009 04:47:52
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 05:05:03
#22 Posty, my apologies, you once called him "my favourite Kiwi". My mistake.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 05:06:51
#22 Posty, so I take it "The Red Dragon" thing is a no go as well" Fair enough.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 05:13:50
#20 During the Korean War, when North Korean troops retreated from Seoul they executed Korean women and children.

During the Korean war, the US carpet bombed villages and their civillian populations in North Korea, as they retreated they destroyed food crops and levelled cities, forcing the people to literally go underground to survive. They used Napalm on civillians.
That is why N Kor has such an extensive underground network of towns and rail systems today and that is why it took really good note when Dubya said the US would consider using it's bunker busters against it.
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W Smith,

Middle East 28/05/2009 05:32:30
#25 Kiddy on Socialist

I suppose its George Bush's fault the North Koreans starve while South Korea prospers thanks, partly, to its trading partners the EU and the USA.

I suppose its Israels fault the lights go our at night in North Korea while the cities in prosperous South Korea are well lit.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm
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W Smith,

Middle East 28/05/2009 05:35:17
Actually this photo sums up the difference between capitalism and communism.

A picture paints a thousand words.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410158/North-Korea-The-Bomb-doesnt-electricity.html

Enough said.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 05:42:05
#26 well now that you mention it... yes.
North Korea desperately needs fuel. It started building its nuclear reactor to give it such fuel that would allow it to feed its people and grow its economy, but the good ol US of Ass wasn't having that. They demanded North Korea cease and desist. They promised to give North Korea oil and a light water reactor so that it could have energy. Then they reneged on that promise and expect Nor Kor to happily sit about and wait for handouts from the oh so bountiful west.
Nor Kor wants, just like any other country in the world, to be self sufficient. But every time it tries to do that, the US grabs it by the throat and shakes it down.
And yes, it is the US's "fault" the south is so ridiculously prosperous compared to the North.
After WWII America poured millions of dollars into SoKor, Japan and Taiwan, deathly afraid that those nations would turn to communism, which they almost did. It used this money to bully the country's people and leaders into compliance, and made sure their economies grew in a very capitalist direction. It subverted their culture with McCulture and greed.
At the same time, of course, it stopped the communist countries doing trade with anyone else in the world, by means of sanctions and embargos. It also used biological warfare against North Korea in an attempt to spread disease and famine, like it did in other communist countries.
so... now that you mention it...
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28/05/2009 05:52:30
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28/05/2009 05:55:09
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28/05/2009 06:01:28
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 06:07:10
thank-you Black n White Bart in #21 for that link to Washington Post article. It is surprising to me, because I have previously read descriptions of the chinese troops in Panama that don't put a number to the quantity of troops, but sure leave the impression it is a major presence. I've also read of Chinese troops in Mexico. Let me tell you that I don't trust any of the journalists so much any more.

As an American accustomed to reading a lot of news articles over a long period of time I am fully aware that we are given a lot of propaganda to read. So it seems that I may have been deceived on some points regarding Chinese troops in Panama & elsewhere.

I sincerely and very strongly wish that 'we the people' would stop the propensity to war that our government has. We the people are not the same as our government. Just like the Russian people were not the same as the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union in fact was an enemy of the Russians in that it killed many Russians. The French people are not the same as the Fifth Republic. But their government is called the Fifth Republic of France. Just like our government is called the United States of America. The mexican government is called the United States of Mexico. China is not the same as the People's Republic of China. England, Scotland, Wales & northern Ireland are not the same as the United Kingdom. The governments contrary to representing the people are frequently much at odds with the people.

It is the governments of the nations that frequently lead them into war. The nations themselves have to be led to it. And unfortunately they are led to it. The world will not forgive us Americans if our government creates fantastic war which it has already done too much of. I understand that. But I constantly wish to point out that we Americans are not the same as the United States.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 06:25:45
#32 Ah, some honesty on here at last. Don't you find it strange, Wally, that you who live in a "democracy" do not identify yourself with your government, yet I who lives under authority does?
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28/05/2009 06:35:59
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 06:57:27
Posty, You once commented on a story, later Dragonhead commented on the the same story and you started a later comment greeting Dragonhead with "Hows my favourite Kiwi". I was mistaken because I thought you two were buddies. I don't think I was a part of the mistaken identity thing, I don't remember it.
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28/05/2009 07:13:25
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28/05/2009 07:23:47
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Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 28/05/2009 07:26:40
How come China, Pakistan, India, UK, USA, France, Russia can all have nuclear bombs get involved in wars but North Korea, who has not had a war since the 1960's, (which was a civil war), can't have any nuclear weapons. What's the big deal, partial extinction of the human species, by 2020, is on it's way anyway.
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28/05/2009 07:30:35
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 07:40:09
Posty, China isn't going to go to war over North Korea, it doesn't suit China do so. If China goes to war with anybody over this it would economical suicide for China and it wouldn't bode well for the rest of us either. Right I agree NK is entitled to clean energy, fine but does it have to be Nuclear? Why not green energy which is many times cheaper. Or is it this isn't really about energy it's about joining the madness of the the "nuclear club". $h1t, more nuclear warheads in the world, yep we really need them.
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28/05/2009 07:43:12
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 07:44:43
Posty, we should be stopping the smaller nations building these damn bombs and dismantling the rest that we have. Nobodies going to win a nuclear war mate, so unless mankind is hell bent on destroying itself having them at all is pretty bloody pointless.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 07:47:07
#39 Posty, stir the pot? Me? not at all, was just letting the head know we have a rough crowd in tonight ;-)
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 07:49:55
"North Korea has only conducted harmless underground tests"

Posty, nuclear underground testing has been found to be far from harmless, even China agreed to stop doing it.
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28/05/2009 07:50:12
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 28/05/2009 07:51:21
#25 Mashimaro - Yet again you point out US excesses but refuse to condemn or even acknowledge the atrocities of the North Koreans (it goes without saying that you would never admit that the Chinese Communists committed atrocities in the Korean War).
Of the US prisoners captured in the Korean War by the North Koreans and Chinese, 38% died in captivity and this figure does not include the many executed shortly after capture.
Atrocities were committed by both sides in the Korean War (though I can find no record of atrocities being committed by UN forces other than those of the US and South Koreans).
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28/05/2009 07:54:10
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28/05/2009 07:57:46
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28/05/2009 08:01:39
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 08:01:45
#40 Jim, you would be surprised at what China will or won't go to war over. We did last time and if this slides into war, we will be pulled in, one way or another. We really are looking to slow our economy and this would do it. It would also finish the US economically, so it could be viewed as one quick cut of the sword as opposed to death by a thousand cuts.
I think you need to understand that North Korea has not been exposed to any of this "green" technology because of all the various sanctions and embargos placed on it by the US. Nuclear energy is green and hugely efficient. It was the best possible solution.
The US has identified China as a rival and will do all in its power to prevent it from rising - hence the stirring in Tibet, the arming of Taiwan, the battleships in Japan, the military in South Korea. If you look at a map you will see the nato "ring of steel" around Russia and China. There is no legitimate reason for Nato's continued existance and yet countries keep on joining it.
Korea is the last of the pawn states in that game of chess. It has been kicked like a dog ever since WWII for no other reason than it was not powerful enough to protect itself. Now it is. Now, at least, it has some bargaining chip when it gets dragged before the kangaroo courts and the US tries another shakedown.
Do you imagine for one moment that the Soviet Union and modern Russia would have existed today if it had not got the bomb? Ditto China. Both would have been quickly overrun by the colonialists once again.
As Asian countries stood up to throw of the yoke of their masters and take back their countries, they too would have been overrun if it had not been for the backing of countries like China and the USSR. Look at your history books and see the interference of the US and the CIA, whenever the poor folk of the world have had the courage to stand up and fight back.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:06:37
#45 Posty, I'm not talking about the self defence of China here, I'm saying that whatever happens, unless it goes nuclear, China will not go to war over North Korea. Not without destroying the Chinese economy and I don't think NK means that much to China. Even if NK attacks the South, China will not get involved, you guys have too much to lose. And if it goes nuclear, well all the economies won't matter that much.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 28/05/2009 08:12:21
Trolls should learn to read. "though I can find no record of atrocities being committed by UN forces other than those of the US and South Koreans". The letters "UN" stand for United Nations.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 08:13:24
#46 Of course the communists and Chinese and North Koreans comitted atrocities during the war, Jimmy Dee. D'you think I'm that stupid? It was war. It's what happens when you take large amounts of people and arm them and then convince them to go off and kill others. I just get a little sick of the US apologists always making out like they are doing Asia a big favour by bringing their evangelical democracy to its shores. Those numpties yelling out on here that North Korea was NEVER UNDER THREAT needed to be corrected. That was the point of that post.
North Korea learned its lesson horribly and well. It learned it had to protect itself, and that it was indeed under threat not just from the mad dog in the south but also from the big brother in the west. It has no reason to ever trust what the Americans say. America has constantly tried to slap it around and continues to do so.
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28/05/2009 08:15:47
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 08:16:47
#52 Jim, we're right on North Korea's border. Do you really think we want to contend with millions of starving refugees streaming over here? er... no thanks.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:17:06
Mashimaro, "We really are looking to slow our economy and this would do it. It would also finish the US economically, so it could be viewed as one quick cut of the sword as opposed to death by a thousand cuts."

I don't agree mate. When America gets into a large shooting war and gets it's industrial power into play they prosper rather than shrink, I'm sure you've heard the old saying that war is good for the economy. Mashimaro, I've said it before, don't under estimate the Yanks mate. First rule of war there, economically they have been rock bottom before but they always seem to bounce back.
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28/05/2009 08:18:58
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Mashimaro,

china 28/05/2009 08:23:02
#56... Yeah Jim... they bounce back. Usually with a war.
Doesn't that clue you in, mate?
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:26:27
#55 Mashimaro, the refugees will be the least of your problems. China will lose the economical superority it is enjoying now if it gets involved in a conventional war over North Korea. Your economy will collapse as you start losing the vast markets in the West and lets be sure here, the West is your biggest consumer at this moment in time. If China goes to war over this you will lose all that. I'm not under estimating China's committment to it's friends Mashi, but I don't think you Leaders are that sweet on NK. China will look to it's own first, in the scope of things NK means nothing to China.
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voltaire's janny,

28/05/2009 08:30:27
I am no fried of despotic regimes anywhere and the glorious leader and his cult members are a genuine danger to the region, however imagine, western democratic advocates, how it plays to our un-friends when America with breathtaking hypocrasy lectures all on non proliferation. They remain the heaviliest armed most belligerent nation on earth, whose leaders believe with varying degrees of delusion or sincerity in a religion that predicts Armageddon and second coming as a good thing; oh - and the only nation to have used WMD in anger.

I'm so ronery...
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28/05/2009 08:33:38
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 08:35:24
#59 we have markets all over the world now. If we go to war we can take our unemployed and put them in the army. The difference here is that it costs us a bowl of noodles a day per soldier. For the US they have to have their 4,000 calories and starbucks (keh keh keh) Russia is not going to be charmed either if this slides into war and it could very well also come down on our side.
The US and the UK for that matter, still tries to push Russia around and still keeps it out in the cold, now we'll find out how the Russians feel about that.
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Mashimaro,

28/05/2009 08:36:42
#60 In what way is North Korea a "geniune danger to the region"?
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:37:16
#58 Mashimaro, I'm not taking America's side here. I'm merely trying to point out that Anerica is capable of Industry the rest of us can only dream about. All I'm saying is that at the moment they are down, but don't count them out. Really guys as far as China and America are concerned I have no axe to grind. I'm just trying to point out that you guys are already at war, economically that is, and China is out on top. China starts marching to the beat of the drum and all that prosperity ends. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that mate
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28/05/2009 08:44:33
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:51:58
#61 Posty. "we have an ever richer population within our borders to help sustain our economy. We ain't stupid and naive and realize that the West's consumers have helped us to where we are today, but if cut loose we will survive, and in time be better and stronger for it."

Posty, your kidding right. Mate China has to create 100 milliom jobs in the next year alone to stay where it is at the moment and even the Chinese government knows they will be hard pushed to do it despite your population size. You don't have enough skilled people Posty. Also a great deal of your industry is foriegn ivestment, go to war and you lose that as well. Not all the latin countries are friendly to China Posty and along with Africa the ones that are, still couldn't match the level of consumer spending on Chinese made goods by the west. You go to war with the West or the US over Korea you lose all that. Forget Africa, it will take them years even with Chinese assistance for them to even come close to any sort of prosperity to match western consumer spending.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 28/05/2009 08:54:42
#53 Mashimaro - "D'you think I'm that stupid?" - Perhaps I'm not the best person for you to ask that one.
I am not a fan of democracy US style (i.e. plutocracy) or the US in general but the argue that North Korea is is the plucky little country standing up to the US bully is somewhat far fetched. This brutal dictatorship stuck in a Stalinist time-warp has millions of men under arms and as many police to keep its own population in check.
The prospect of such an odious regime possessing nuclear weapons should be a concern for all (as should be the matter of the unregulated nuclear weapons held by Israel now under the control of an extremist and racist government) yet the PRC stands by its allies no matter what.
There is a mad dog on the Korean peninsular but it is in the north.
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:54:44
I don't think China is going to go to war again over North Korea. Time has changed all that.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 08:57:14
#67 It would never have become a brutal dictatorship, Jimmy Dee, if it wasn't for the rubbish that the US pulls with communist countries. Tell me, has it never entered your pretty little head... uhhhh why is it that all communist countries end up with paranoid dictators in charge? Doh!
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 08:57:28
Anyway guys to save your fingers I have to go now, have to be somewhere else. So it's been good (but not real good;-) take it easy all.

P.S. Ban the Bomb
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28/05/2009 09:04:01
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 09:06:31
Jim, I know you have no axe to grind, we're just talking here. No animostiy at all.
But Jim... America hasn't won any wars (without massive help, like in wwII) since its war of independence. It's just lucky it's so far away no one wants to invade it. ;)
China, on the other hand... won in Tibet, in China, in Vietnam, in North Korea, in Laos and Cambodia. Are you beginning to see a pattern, perhaps? We beat the Manchus and the Mongols for that matter.
You need to take a look at China, Jim, and what it has achieved too. That great stonking wall should clue you in. That was built on the bones of our people, Jim. We have shown, time after time that we will do what it takes, and we won't get squeamish about suffering - our or yours
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 28/05/2009 09:07:00
#69 Mashimaro - "It would never have become a brutal dictatorship, Jimmy Dee, if it wasn't for the rubbish that the US pulls with communist countries" - Utter tosh. It is the nature of Communist regimes tobrutally suppress opposition the only thing that varies is the degree.
The USA was largely isolationist in the 1920s and 30s let the Soviet Union ended up with the brutal dictator in the shape of Stalin and slaughtered millions. Who are you going to blame for this? The rubbish pulled by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
Despite the fact that you are a shameless apologist for Communist tyranny and least you have admitted that "all communist countries end up with paranoid dictators in charge" - your only country included presumably.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 09:07:35
Posters are you racing dragon boats today? Our team got our butts kicked *sigh*
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Mashimaro,

china 28/05/2009 09:08:22
Oh don't go Jim!

Ban the bomb? that's what keeps the peace!
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28/05/2009 09:10:54
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Jim A,

28/05/2009 09:13:05
Posty, I did read it, I read all of it, and I tried to explain why I disagree with you regarding Africa and latin America. I took nothing out of context as you suggest. Posty Latin America and Africa may be good for China further down the road in time but at the moment to stay where you are economically and Industrially, you need the western consumer. Say what you like mate but at the moment we need each other. The West and China ever fall out and China will take the bigger hit. At the moment the west hasn't much to lose and if we lost the Chinese markets then that could well be good for the west. We would have to start building again to produce our own consmer goods. Posty we did once upon a time, we can do it again.

Ok really got to go ..bye bye.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 09:15:54
Uh... Jimmy... the US sent troops to stop the communist revolution, dear. And we could "go on from there" but I'm no going to waste my time looking it all up now.
Yes, China had brutal dictators. Our first emperor was barking mad! But he wasn't communist. Your brutal dictator is my strong leader. The west has had its fair share too, kings, prime minister, presidents, queens, Bush, Cheyney et al.
why is it, do you think, that folks who have those lofty ideals of equality, peace, bread, land, all end up the way they do, eh? It's no coincidence, Jimmy. They're driven to it. Fighting their corner against the constant harrassment of outside forces that will use murder and torture and bio warfare and every dirty trick in the book to see that commie country fail.
Look at what the US did to Cuba. Prime example. Vietnam, China, North Korea... love Asia to death they do, love em to death.
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Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 28/05/2009 09:21:51
68 Jim A: China's history shows that whenever a foreign power starts to get close to its borders, it will react to defend them. Vietnam, Korea and the Great Wall of China are examples.
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Thistledhu,

28/05/2009 09:50:23
All this just goes to display that the diffrence between communism and Fascism is in reality just the spelling.
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Thistledhu,

28/05/2009 10:01:38
Mashimaro western leaders have their fualts the diffrence is they are elected and accountable.

If I want to criticise Gordon Brown i can do so with out the fear of a knock on the door and being hauled off to prison for 'crimes against the people'
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/05/2009 10:11:12
Unless N Korea is going to use a Nuclear weapon, they should probably keep quiet as any Naval engagement would be over in about 15 minutes.
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Thistledhu,

28/05/2009 10:19:23
this is sabre rattleing by a dictator ship trying to extort more aid as there corrupt regime in common with other failed communist states simply does not work.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 12:48:58
#82 "Mashimaro western leaders have their fualts the diffrence is they are elected and accountable.

If I want to criticise Gordon Brown i can do so with out the fear of a knock on the door and being hauled off to prison for 'crimes against the people'"
Oh really. So Tony Blair will be tried for war crimes, will he? No, I guess not.
You have the illusion of electing leaders. What you have is a group of thugs who keep the rich rich and find excuses to keep the poor poor.
With those kinds of leaders you would never ever have moved a country like China forwards. You would never have managed to implement the one child policy and China would still be an impoverished, famine stricken state.
So don't wave the flag of democracy in my face, dude.
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Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 28/05/2009 12:49:43
Mashimaro in #33:

I don't find it strange that you're more comfortable with your government than I am with mine.

I think that the democracy ideology is false. Just because a government is set up like a democracy does not mean that the people are respected by government or that their government is good. Here in America we have viewed our nation as a great experiment to create a situation where 'we the people' were sovereign. And we have failed in this quest. We feel without any question that if we failed to make it work, then no other nation will make it work.

In thinking about this question I have concluded that the description of how nations are ruled that I read in the bible is accurate. The creator decides what leadership clique shall rule any given nation and once that decision is made the people fall into line. And this decision on who the leadership should be is not made for the sake of the people in those nations. It is done for god's purposes instead. God will create nations, he will give them their properties, he will raise them up, make them strong and destroy them as he desires so that our world history will unfold as he wants for his purposes.

Many are troubled or shocked by the idea that I would say that god will allow evil people to rule some nations. The bible says specifically that this world is made in such a way that evil people will dominate it. We are living in an era where we as individuals are all under a test. We are being tested. The world is arranged as it is so that this test can occur.
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 13:07:33
I agree with Mashimaro in 53 where he says that soldiers of any nationality are likely to do bad things in war. because it is war, that is normal. I'm sure there were what could be called atrocities done by all sides in Korean war (1950-1952).

For me, I think of the Americans in that war. How unjust it was and difficult for them that they were just plucked up from their lives where peace & prosperity were coming our way and all of a sudden they were dropped into a shooting war in Korea. The first Americans sent there were ill-equipped. The north koreans had tanks and we had no means of fighting them. We had rifles, they had tanks and superior weaponry in the beginning.

It was a horrible war. A good friend of mine who is 77 was there. He told me many stories.

But for the Chinese soldiers it was the same, very unjust that they had to go fight in a war. When these soldiers are given such injustice they will dole it out to others - 100% of the time.
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 13:25:58
#89 Well, Wally, if you want to think of yourself as some sort of reality show for god's pleasure then that's up to you. I don't like your god, I don't trust it, it is completely illogical and very evil in its own right. So I will move forward with my country, knowing full well that one day, I will die - but just not yet.
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Adso,

28/05/2009 13:29:25
#82 - sure western democracy is superb. You have a choice of two parties!! Pure democracy right? In 2001 Blair got 40% of a 60% voter turn out = 25% of the vote. He had a majority of over 100 seats and took us into Iraq killing 100s of thousands. In the US they couldn't even count the votes properly in 2000. Ask Dr Kelly if you can openly challenge the government - no you get ur wrists slit and left to die.

The west lost any moral highground in Iraq. The US have shown that they are willing to sacrifice 100,000s of lives for their strategy (let us not pretend Saddam alone was 'evil' enough to justify all the killing). They make up lies to justify it and backtrack afterwards. Are N Korea supposed to wait until the US comes to town and starts the killing? No, they say they have a bomb that can hurt the US - without this they have no defence.

The west stand back and watch terror in Lebanon, Gaza etc. Then take this mock outrage when someone tools up to protect, yes possibly aggresively, themselves. What else can N Korea do?
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Mashimaro,

China 28/05/2009 13:29:53
#91 Oddly enough, Wally, I've never ever heard anyone who was involved in a war say "It was a fantastic war, loved every minute of it, wish I could get back to it as soon as possible."
Such is the nature of war.
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Mashimaro,

china 28/05/2009 14:12:46
Posters, if you want to see "world domination" start looking into a company called "Monsanto". It will leave you cold.
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mike - across the pond,

ah mashi 28/05/2009 14:35:12
you got confused in your arguments...

and let the cat out of the bag...

NOW... lets just look at what you said and what happened

the US condemned the NK nuclear program...
Yessir it did, because the NK nuclear program was NOT for energy production... but WEAPONS development

are you denying that it was for WEAPONS development?

or claiming that NK somehow has a plan for turning nuclear weapons into energy production?

or that NK has a valid need for nuclear weaponry?

as far as the NK economy, I believe we can agree that NK may have one of the worst economies on the entire planet... worse than Cuba, worse than Haiti... now please take a moment and explain to us all why that is, NK's closest ally is YOU... CHINA... Why isnt NK's economy on par with YOURS...
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mike - across the pond,

hey wally 28/05/2009 15:16:57
all I am left is to sigh...

ever read a book by Frank Herbert called the Dosadi Experiment?

you might find it rather interesting... and apropos... to your discussion with Mashi...

the interesting thing here is, you condemn democracy, not so much for its inherent pitfalls, but because MAN has corrupted it... wally, WHAT do you expect? do you honestly believe that there is some iron clad guarantee that we CANT mess it up? I think we both believe in liberty, and freedom... where I think you are getting hung up is that somehow you think that there is or should be some devine or benevolent control... to that I ask why? why would any "God" who prizes liberty put constraints on those who rise to "power"...

I think even Mashi can agree that we arent always real proud of the paths our "leaders" choose... and I dont doubt that leaders can be corrupt both in their paths to power and their governance...

but HERE is the difference...
and Barrack Obama is personification of this difference

in OUR form of government ANYONE can be elected...

Barrack Obama's mother was a "hippie"... counter culture as they come... actually probably more a "beatnik" but none the less... certainly counter culture... and while he is more "mainstream"... there is little doubt that the child of a counter culture ethnic minority in china would stand little chance of rising to their chairmanship...

go ahead Mashi... show us all how the child of a Tibetan monk could rise to power in china

luckily we have a government that has a certain amount of "churn" built into it... currently I wish it had MORE churn... but...
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mike - across the pond,

ah posty.... 28/05/2009 15:44:54
so, you are claiming that North Korea needs nuclear weaponry for its own defense...

how would you feel about Japan making the same claim...

or Taiwan? or Mongolia?

or Tibet??? come now.... I think we can both agree that your view of ethnic Tibetans is very similar to western views of North Korea...

to be 100% honest, I dont believe we in the US NEED nuclear weaponry anymore... its just too dirty... we have weaponry that is MUCH more accurate, clean, and devastating...

as far as North Korean economy... Ive been around the world... and can honestly say, Ive seen things "made in VietNam".... Haiti.... Cuba... but never North Korea... and Ive looked... so their export economy is woeful... AND THEY ARE YOUR ALLY...

I read an article a while back on the divergence between NK and SK... and how the NK average 2-3" shorter than the SK... and that they are theorizing that this is due to nutrition... now I can hear you wailing about the "depraved indifference" of the west... but THEY ARE YOUR ALLIES... how could YOU let this happen TO YOUR ALLY???

you talk like NK is some ideal state, and your leaders probably do pine for the control the NK governement exerts (extorts?) but lets go back just a few years... remember the propane train that blew up just across your border? remember how the NK's wouldnt take help from even YOUR China? their closest ally... there is something wrong here... something fundamentally wrong...
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mike - across the pond,

posty 28/05/2009 16:04:43
HuJintao

did you READ your article...

"For most of Hu's adult life he has been involved in the Communist party bureaucracy..."

Barrack Obama has been part of the US Governemental machinery for less than 25% of his adult life...

"Since his ascendancy Hu has reinstated certain controls on the economy and has been largely conservative with political reforms.[1] His foreign policy is seen as less conciliatory than that of his predecessor..."

can you say regressive?

declared martial law in Lhasa... which set the stage for Tiananmen Square...

wait.... let me guess... you were thinking you could just post something and I would go away...
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MattyMat,

So Cal 28/05/2009 16:38:33
North Korea's a joke. Just gas being let off by a dead nation. They know they'd be wiped off the face of the earth if they tried anything "unimaginable". It's Chinese obligations that'll get in the way of that happening. So, we're still between a rock and a hard place. Been there, done that. Ho-hum......
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 16:49:06
Mashimaro & Black and white bart: thank you for feedback on my bible rant in 89. I gave you that rant to describe the model that I think is true as to how nations are ruled. We were discussing democracy, and I think the democracy model is a fraud. The model I showed you from the bible I think is true as to how it really works.

I also think Mashimaro is right about Monsanto. In my participation here on Scotsman I have tried to tell people that there is a very evil mercantile clique that does rule not just America, but much of the world. Monsanto is part of that mercantile clique. I perceive that the way this evil clique has swooped to power over a long period of time in my country to be a supernatural thing or caused due to spiritual forces.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 28/05/2009 17:03:34
#79 Mashimaro - You are right (for once) not to waste time looking anything up - the half-hearted intervention of US forces did not start until July 1918, well after both revolutions in Russia.
The sweet-and-kindly Communists are turned into brutal killers because they are forced into it and are only fighting their corner against outside forces. Pull the other one.
As I stated, I am not a fan of the US and its foreign policy so I do not have to look at what the US did to Cuba, Vietnam, China etc....I have a clear view of what Communism has done to Albania, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, East Germany, the Baltic States, the Ukraine, Belarus etc..... You going to blame this all on the US too? You will find few takers for a return to the good old days of Communism in Europe and still less who think that Communist repression is all down to the US.
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 17:11:55
let me say some more about these spiritual forces I talked of in #117. I encourage people to read the christian bible. There are many who will ridicule the christian bible. But it is the most popular book ever produced by people, the most well-read. The reason it is so popular is because of the way it is written, the way it speaks and what it says. But the bible says you should interpret it 'in the spirit' and also that its prophecies are to be interpreted in a symbolic way rather than in a literal way.

There is much disinformation about the bible, it is very controversial. In the christian community there is vast disagreement on it. That is why I urge you to read it and contemplate what it means yourself. It also takes an awful lot of reading, even study, to make sense of it. You should listen to other people's interpretations and consider them. but even the bible will tell you that there will be many false interpretations, that it is difficult to interpret and that we should consider different interpretations.

My nation presents the world with some very big challenges. Jim A above speaks about how America is deceptively strong and how it can bounce back, etc. He has a good point. I submit that there are momentous events coming. When these momentous events occur everybody worldwide will forget about America. Until then America will be the center of attention worldwide. America is a nation made for the purpose of helping to lead up to these momentous events coming.
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/05/2009 17:32:39
Regarding communism and these spiritual forces I've talked about - Around 1820 in New York City there was a convention of people involved in some strange religious practices including satanism. A paper was presented at that conference where the author advocated that a new political movement be created and to be called 'commune'. He described it and it seems just like the ideals of communism as stated by Marx.

I suggest that spiritual forces cause and instigate the great historical events we see. We the people don't think the same way as our creator does. For one thing we are focused on our deaths and naturally afraid of it. but the bible ridicules us for being so focused on and afraid of death, the bible calls it our 'first death'. and it says that the first death is nothing to fear, but the second death is when judgement comes and we are judged negatively. It says that all at once each individual on the earth will be judged. It says the dead will be raised just prior to this event so that they also can be judged. All of us who have lived in this era will be judged over a brief period of time. Then we will be separated.

and what is the purpose for letting history unfold as it does? to maximize the opportunity of each and every individual on earth to make choices or take actions. and then we are to be judged on these choices and actions we take. It is all a test. We need to be very careful.

Events will be orchestrated so that all people on the earth are given a stark choice and will have to make decisions. There will also be much deception leading up to these things. It is best to be cautious, careful & aware.
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Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 28/05/2009 20:53:46
The North Korean bluster is for its own population, to divert attention from appalling living standards. All nuclear nations know the difficulty and expense of making nuclear weapons. The fact that North Korea has exploded a single 20kt device, is not cause for alarm. The chance that N. Korea can actually deliver a second nuclear bomb to a target right now is very small - it will take them a couple of months to prepare another device. Delivery of the critical materials that North Korea needs to import in order to make nuclear weapons and weapons delivery systems has been stopped. North Korean spies inside North Korea (and North Korea is truly riddled with citizens who hate the ruling regime), are already taking small actions to sabotage the nuclear programme. The USA is able to spot missile sites and wipe them out before North Korea has an inkling that a strike is on the way. The North Korean government is bluffing, and N. Korea is led by the world's biggest bluffer - a real hot air baffoon. In any real confrontation, N. Korea would be finished within 2 weeks. And they damn well know it.
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Jaffa Scot,

AMESBURY 28/05/2009 21:47:03
I don't think that Mashimaro, China is real. Is "Numptie" used commonly there? Can you even access this website so easily and consistently in China to post all those comments?
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howard sutherland,

bahamas 28/05/2009 22:47:57
#128 Jaffa Scot

I'm sure China has government workers that are closely monitored who are hired to work sites like this one to portray a positive image and make it appear they have free access to the Internet.

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GibsonAustralia,

Sydney 28/05/2009 23:03:44
Jaffa.
Mashimaro looks to be a writer for the Chinese government.
They call those writers the Fifty Cent Party.
He is too prevalent not to be a government writer.
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Tobytoo,

Southington, U.S.A. 28/05/2009 23:13:39
#33 Mashimaro
By Wally #32 comments over a period of time I often wonder why he does not live in China as he certainly seems to favor it over the U.S.
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GibsonAustralia,

Sydney 28/05/2009 23:28:52
China is bad news for the world.
The vision and prophecy at http://noradwarningchina.blogspot.com/ and http://doeschinanukegrainharvest.blogspot.com/ strongly suggests China has a secret plan for the USA.
Which doesnt surprise me considering her military build up.
We can see very, very, very clearly the plan to dispose of the USA because China has no threats to herself at all.
Not a single threat at anytime.
She can only be building to cripple the USA.

Communism cannot dominate and crush all opposition unless it deals with the USA.
Chinas secret plan is to plant the Red flag at the top of the world and call it all her own.

She will do this over the bones of a 'bombed out' America if Norad goes to sleep.
Norad needs to fully open Cheyenne Mountain not mothball it.
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Finlang,

Liaoning 28/05/2009 23:52:12
#128 Jaffa Scot

The China poster you refer to occasionally employs western colloquialisms. By his own admission on this website he was educated sometime and somewhere in the west. No further info on that though. Why not ask him to enlighten?

And yes, you can "access this website ... easily and consistently in China". I've done that for many years, and doing so now, without a single hiccup. (I'm Scots, not Chinese, by the way.)




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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 00:15:18
#102
Mike "the US condemned the NK nuclear program...
Yessir it did, because the NK nuclear program was NOT for energy production... but WEAPONS development."

No, it wasn't and there is absolutely no proof that it was. It was treated like Saddam's WMD.

"are you denying that it was for WEAPONS development?"
I don't know for 100% sure, but I still believe the country has a right to defend itself

"or claiming that NK somehow has a plan for turning nuclear weapons into energy production?"
They were not making nukes. They were making energy. There is a big difference and it seems as if you have fallen for the whole press idea that NUKE = nuclear bomb. No, it doesn't. Nuclear fuel needds to go through reprosessing to do that. there is no proof N Korea was doing that.

"or that NK has a valid need for nuclear weaponry?"

Yes, I've said as much.

"as far as the NK economy, I believe we can agree that NK may have one of the worst economies on the entire planet... worse than Cuba, worse than Haiti... now please take a moment and explain to us all why that is, NK's closest ally is YOU... CHINA... Why isnt NK's economy on par with YOURS..."

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Do you expect China to pour money into North Korea? That's a kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" thing eh? China got to where it is today because it had the bomb. North Korea didn't. It got where it is today by enforcing it's 1 child policy and 20 years ago taking the horrid decision to stop the trouble makers from pulling the country into chaos. China has oil and has made other energy sources, diverted rivers and done what Chinese do, work and build. It would have been almost impossible to do so with no energy.
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 00:18:46
#131 You'd have to ask him that. But many westerners just can't cut it here, it's not the easy life they have become used to, unless they have a really good job and good pay. Just because someone sees something wrong in their own country doesn't mean they should have to leave it. It would be better if they stay and change it.
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 00:29:21
#107 Mike, quite a number of former Tibetan slaves to the putrid land masters have risen to power, does that answer your question?
Obama is a joke. Let's face it. He has no real power. He's been put up as a symbol by the rich backers to dupe the poor folk into believing things will change, backed by Oprah to make him "look good". I'm not saying he's a bad man in himself. He seems quite good, but as for him actually doing anything... well, we'll see.
You might want to remember that Hu's family was not very well off, and that his father had been condemned during the cultural revolution. Still he managed to rise as the country's leader.
I think you maybe need to review what westerners like in leaders and what chinese people like in their leaders. You'll find a big difference. Hu is particularly liked in China.
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 00:38:54
#128 Yes you can access the Scotsman quite easily from China. Funnily enough it is the Scotsman who bans some posters from China.
Numptie is a word I've picked up from the Catherine Tate show, innit though. I think she's brilliant, by the way and often get her shows sent to me on CD. I also like Black Adder, the Office (UK version), Hotel Babylon and Hustle. I like The Kumars too and Goodness Gracious Me, although I haven't seen them for a long time. Heck I even like Open All Hours and the Two Ronnies. When I go to Hong Kong I watch BBC Entertainment channel, decide what I like and order them from my local friendly er... DVD procurer.
Does that answer your question?
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 00:42:09
#120 Jimmy, we've had this talk before. The "communist" europe, had that regime forced upon them. They didn't choose it. That always makes for a bad start. It was colonialism, not communism that was the problem. Russia could not afford to rebuild those countries the way uncle sam made sure the rest of europe was rebuilding lest they vote in the commies. Want to take a look at what they were doing in Greece and Italy eh? eh?
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Finlang,

Liaoning 29/05/2009 00:55:39
#137 Mashimaro

And Catherine Tate, as well as many other English TV performers, nicked the word "numptie" or "numpty" from Glasgow, Scotland.
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 01:44:14
as long as we're speaking frankly and still friendly, let me follow up on Finlang's comment about how he acquires his BBC entertainment DVD's. Isn't it true that in China and in many countries there is a massive amount of software piracy and sales of illicit videos & DVDs that are illegal copies. In the US & EU people pay the actual producers of that stuff under the terms agreed upon by both parties. In China and in many countries they simply steal what they want and the original producer is not compensated at all.

We have a huge trade deficit with China. China has a huge trade surplus with the world. Why can't they pay for their software and their DVD's?

Regarding British television - you produce a lot of good shows that many people like.

Regarding Mike saying that North Korea and some other countries are so poor - the US has borrowed almost $15 trillion in the last 8 months and given the money to rich people. This money was borrowed from foreign banks or foreign sovereign wealth funds. China surely provided a lot of it. The US taxpayers are to be taxed to pay this back allegedly. $15 trillion is about as large as the US gdp for a whole year. It is an impossible sum of money to pay back. We are enslaved by our own government and Mike wants to comment about how low NK's economy is. Mike, better look at our own affairs.

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Finlang,

Liaoning 29/05/2009 02:42:13
#140 Wally (by name and by nature? It's a UK thing, don't ask)

"... let me follow up on Finlang's comment about how he acquires his BBC entertainment DVD's."

Well, excuse me, mister. Where precisely did I make that alleged comment? Go on, tell me. At least attempt to correctly identify those you wish to vilify, Bible Boy.


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Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks Californiacation 29/05/2009 03:14:27
There was a time when I thought these discussionn sites were very good. But whatever happened to the discussion? What do those photos taken by the US mean? The NK's switch their lights when they go to bed? It has to be a sinister reason behind it as it would be impossible to doctor the pics? But lets get back to the point, why shouldn't NK have the right to make their own Nukes? When bush was around they likely felt that they had no choice! And they fired rockets in the air!! Just where and how often do the "goodies" do the same thing. Then the final touch of alarm, NK threatens to attack SK & USA patroling in Korean disputed waters! What on earth are we doing there in the first place/ This is the sane type of game we played in the Straights of Hormuz, here we called it Crusin to give a brusin. Lets get real!
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 03:34:40
#139 Oh, okay. Cool. So I speak Scotch too?
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 03:39:47
#138 Mashimaro - There are hardly any countries that "choose" Communism and, once chosen or imposed, they find great difficulty in "choosing" something else.
Russia could not afford to rebuild the countries of Eastern Europe but it spent plenty time and effort ransacking large parts of it. Nobody forced the Soviet Union into the war they joined it willingly by attacking Poland with the Nazis, the Baltic States and Finland. The "colonialism" of the Comintern.
"Want to take a look at what they were doing in Greece and Italy" - These were success stories where the Communists were prevented from imposing there brand of oppression by force of arms or the ballot box. The Italian Communist party in particular was heavily funded and supported by the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact countries.
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Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 03:52:12
#140 Yes there is a massive amount of piracy in China as "other countries". When actors and actreses are paid fair wages like the rest of us mere mortals who have to go to work each day, I might feel just the teensiest bit guilty about it. But when Adobe asks me to pay an entire month's salary to get one of their programs ... you've got to be kidding me. Once again it's just the rich bullying the poor. and don't get me started on patented medicines and food. We'll be here till Monday.
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29/05/2009 03:53:10
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29/05/2009 04:02:14
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150

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 04:03:12
#146 Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, Greece, Italy, Japan, all chose to be communist. Not many had the stick to stand up to the bullying west about it though.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 04:23:54
#150 Mashimaro - Dream on. Greece, Italy and Japan never chose to be Communist thus it did not happen. The others takeovers were accomplished by force of arms.
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29/05/2009 04:29:10
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153

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 04:34:56
#150 Ah Jimmy Dee... you dream on.Go read some books, eh. I dares ya.
154

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 04:39:29
#153 Mashimaro - Ho, hum, same guff, different day. Boiled down you have little to offer beyond Communist fairy stories. Little different from your deranged sock puppet.
155

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 04:44:20
thanks Finlang in 141: maybe I'm wrong, but I think the dvd copies of those BBC programs you buy are what is called 'bootlegged' or it is taken from the producers of those things against their will. It is illegal under the laws of the nations where the producers live. Why don't you buy them legally? I may be wrong and if I am, then please clue me in, but I think that almost all the copies of American & European entertainment sold on dvd in china are illegal in that the makers of those things did not surrender them to you. You stole them. The same is true for software, it is stolen by the chinese and by many others.

Don't worry, there is zero chance we will pay back the loans china gives us. My choice is that we renege sooner rather than later.

I don't blame you or the other people in China, but it is a complaint I have. If you want to get copies of BBC shows, then you should compensate BBC under the terms that BBC is willing to agree with. Anything short of that is theft.
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 04:59:49
Arminius said in 151 that several nations had been taken over by communists by force of arms. I'm sure that is true. but from a technical point of view the American nation also was taken by force of arms by people who said that they wanted to establish a democracy. I remind you that historical evidence indicates that only one third of the American population of 1776 actually supported the revolution. One third supported rule by the King of England and one third was indifferent. as I said above, just because you call it a democracy does not mean that it has the support of the people. Our government today is hated by our people.
157

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 05:00:39
#155 "Anything short of that is theft." says the man who says...
"Don't worry, there is zero chance we will pay back the loans china gives us. My choice is that we renege sooner rather than later."
158

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 05:04:38
Someone said that Japan was communist. But we don't think it is. We should remember that what is true in reality behind the screen or face may not be the same as the 'reality' that is presented in public. In other words, I think it is possible that Japan really is allied with communists. and I think that my country (USA) may be allied with communists as well. I don't know.

But the communists were an instigated group, set up by others. And the communists of 1917 Soviet Union are not the communists of 2009 China. Two entirely different groups with probably nothing in common.
159

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 05:24:15
Mashimaro in 157: yes, it is true. We're never going to pay that money back. The goal is that we pay interest on it. I favor renouncing the debt and paying nothing.

two sides to the same coin. You steal our software & our entertainment products, we borrow your money and don't pay back.

China was unwise in lending us that money.

Obviously, I am very uncomfortable with the global trading schemes. They should be conducted with honesty & integrity always with the goal of bringing about prosperity for the people of the entire world, not just for some. We don't live up to that standard. Look for a change what impact this trading scheme has on my country. We are put deep into debt that we cannot pay. We will not accept it.

There are people who try to engineer conflict and war. I am not on their side.

China has prospered with the large amount of US investment and being opened to export to other markets. The US was instrumental in doing this. I congratulate the Chinese people for this. But we cannot pay the debt and should renege on it. If China in turn steals all the factories in china built with American money, then so be it. Regardless we will not pay the money back because we can not.

My nation would be better off without these trading schemes, this is what you forget. Many people are not aware that the US dollar is over-valued. It creates an unfair trading environment. We Americans are harmed by it. The result will be war if we continue.

Some will say that it is the choice of the US to have its dollar overvalued and to engage in these trading schemes. That is true. But China cooperates with these schemes by trading with us. Therefore, you are as guilty as us.
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29/05/2009 05:51:24
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162

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 06:20:58
#159 "Look for a change what impact this trading scheme has on my country. We are put deep into debt that we cannot pay. We will not accept it."
Now you know what Africa feels like mu ha ha ha ha.

Wally, you need to sort out your own "government". Fact is that big business runs you. It creates the slaves to work for it - the ordinary men and women of the US of A.
Yes, China has prospered from US investment, just as much as the US has prospered by moving its factories here and using cheap labour. Just as China was not allowed to prosper before because of US sanctions and all the other nonsense.
Don't blame the US greed on China, Wally. Look after your own hedge before you start trimming ours.
163

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 06:42:00
#154 No, I'm pretty sure in the past I have pointed out to you chapter and verse how the US bullied places like Greece, Italy, Japan, Germany etc etc out of communism. You seem to be under the impression the "people" of those countries wanted capitalism. If that were so... why all the covert ops, eh? Why no just let the mighty "democracy" speak? Oh yes because "democracy" only "works" when someone the US approves of is elected.
164

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 07:12:32
#163 Mashimaro - Yes, I am pretty sure that you spouted that BS before too and it is no more convincing now.
You seem to be under the impression that "covert ops" were a one way street; the Soviet union and its client states were equally guilty.
You have not a shred of evidence that Greece, Italy, Germany or Japan would have voted in a Communist government. Besides, if the "mighty democracy" had spoken for Communism, it would never get another chance to speak for anything else. We do not permit the freedom to destroy freedom.
Communism only "works" when it is forced on the people at gun point and kept there by a police state.
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29/05/2009 07:37:09
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166

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 07:44:52
#163 Mashimaro - ....and of course, any extreme ideology will atract its fair share, of the head cases, the deranged, egoists,the criminally insane and social inadequates. Never usually enough to win an election though......
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29/05/2009 07:51:34
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168

Mashimaro,

China 29/05/2009 08:03:07
#166 well, obviously the US was worried enough to go through its slaughter, torture, bribery, threats, violence, bombings, biowarfare and other dirty tricks to ensure those nasty commies didn't get in.
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29/05/2009 08:08:17
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170

Mashimaro,

china 29/05/2009 08:13:25
#166 Maybe, for all here, you'd like to try putting your particular brand of spin on Operation Gladio
171

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 08:22:27
#168 Mashimaro - Go to any village in Poland, East Germany or Estonia and ask around what they would prefer. Communism or US "dirty tricks" and democracy. I'll wager that those opting for Communism are very much in the minority.
you will find things are not what they seem once you step outside of your Communist la-la land.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 08:31:42
#170 Mashimaro - I don't do requests so you will have to wait until there is an article about it.
You can watch the BBC programme here (if your government has not blocked it):
http://www.archive.org/details/operationgladio
You only found out about Gladio because the Soviet Union imploded and it was no longer necessary. What is still secret are the lists of Communist traitors to be slotted in the event of a Soviet attack.
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Mashimaro,

29/05/2009 09:57:13
#171 I believe that would be called Non sequiter, Jimmy. How can you say people in eastern europe - who had communism foisted on them while the US inflated the countries around them - can fairly judge whether or not communism was a good thing? Let's be honest here. If it had not been for Uncle Sam's vast sums of money, all of europe would be communist, for better or worse. If you put Disneyland next to a primary school and then ask the kids where they'd rather be... guess what the answer will be. It doesn't mean Disney is any better for them. Communism helps impoverished people to get the basics like food, education and medical care.
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Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 29/05/2009 10:16:58
#173 Mashimaro - Non sequiter only because it does not suit. On the one hand you state that these countries in Eastern Europe had Communism foisted on them yet you contend that all of europe would be communist had it not been for US money.
The USA helped Europe with the European Recovery Programme (and offered this help to the Soviet Union and its allies only for it to be rejected) and it kick started their economies so they could provide both the basics of food, education and medical care and some measure of luxury without the "help" of Communism.
It would be far from honest to state that all of europe would be communist if not for US money - in fact, a fantasy (or rather a nightmare).
175

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 15:54:00
thank-you Mashimaro for those reminders in 162. You're right that we americans need to sort out our problems with our government. You're right that we're ruled by big business too. Unfortunately we the people of America have failed to address this situation. We're staring at raw naked human failure. I have often said here on Scotsman that an evil clique came to rule our country and we were unable to resist. and that if this same evil clique had come to your country to rule, then your people wouldn't have done any better in resisting their rule. I suggest to you that the American failure on these things is merely symbolic of a broader failure of the human race to rule itself and keep order in this world.

And you're right also that I shouldn't blame chinese people for American failures, but I didn't do that. What I said was that you're as guilty as we are. Here's my logic on that. Your government participates in the currency fix. The currency fix started in 1993 and was modified only slightly in 2005. The currency fix is an agreement between china and the US to artificially suppress the chinese currency's value to the US dollar. This enables your manufacturing tremendously and likewise it kills ours'. You in essence are given a subsidy by mutual agreement of our governments. The rate of chinese economic development the last 20 years has been unprecedented in human history. The chinese surely deserve huge credit for this, but it wouldn't have happened without the currency fix. Also, your government recirculates excess dollars earned in trade back to the US. This is not done as a wise investment, this is done to suppress the value of the chinese currency, prop up the dollar and keep America buying your goods. This enables the US war machine as well. If china stopped doing this, then the war machine would falter. All these people around the world complain about our government going to war. But their leaders enable our leaders by recirculating US
176

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 29/05/2009 15:56:16
But their leaders enable our leaders by recirculating US dollars back to us.

the end result of this trading regime with the currency fixes is that my country goes into impossible debt that we cannot pay, and that our domestic economy is damaged severely as with an over-valued currency our domestic industries cannot compete. Your government is in bed with our government to screw us the Americans.

You guys around the world have a lot of complaints (don't blame you). but everyone suppresses their currency value to the US dollar. We're the ones that get stuck with an over-valued currency and a screwed up economy as a result. We live on borrowed money. We're going towards bankruptcy and poverty.


177

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 29/05/2009 16:21:54
what I meant to say in 176 is that china, japan, s korea, russia, saudi arabia and many other successful exporters recirculate their excess US dollars back to the US thus enabling the US war machine. They complain about our war machine, but their governments support it. And please don't believe media propaganda that says you're stopping this practice. In the last 9 months or so the US government has borrowed over $14 trillion from foreign sources. There is massive recirculation of US dollars back to the US.

I'd be so happy if you stopped doing this. We need to produce what we consume. Trade is good, but only when imports and exports match each other. We import far far more than we export due to our over-valued currency. and the result is massive debt. The difference between imports & exports is made up primarily by debt. You keep lending us the money even though there's no logical reason to think we can pay it back.

and we the Americans are completely 'out of the loop' as we americans would say, we have no control over it, very few of us even have awareness as to whats happening. our media lies to us every day. Our leaders are our worst enemies.
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29/05/2009 17:18:19
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