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Salmond: nuclear redundant in self-sufficient Scotland



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Published Date: 11 January 2008
SCOTLAND produced enough non-nuclear electricity to satisfy all its power needs last year, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said yesterday, as divisions deepened between Holyrood and Westminster over energy policy.
His claim came on the day the UK government announced plans for four new nuclear stations south of the Border, arguing this was the only way to guarantee reliable, environmentally friendly electricity for the foreseeable future.

John Hutton, the
Business Secretary, even accused Scottish ministers – who are opposed to new nuclear stations in Scotland – of making "a mistake" they would come to regret.

As the row over nuclear power re- ignited, Mr Salmond played his trump card: the assertion that Scotland was already self-sufficient in non-nuclear electricity.

He predicted the figures for the past 12 months – which will not be published until the end of this year – would show the amount of electricity generated in Scotland from non- nuclear sources would cover the country's entire needs.

The First Minister said: "In 2006, we were producing more of our electricity from non-nuclear sources – 92.5 per cent of our consumption could have come from these.

"And I think you will find that, in 2007, 100 per cent of our consumption of electricity will have been met from non-nuclear sources. Hunterston B (nuclear station] was out for virtually all of 2007.

"Our aim is a non-nuclear Scotland. We are not going to close nuclear stations; they will come to the end of their natural lives and then will be shut."

According to the latest UK government statistics, Scotland's two nuclear power stations produced 26 per cent of the electricity generated in Scotland in 2006, down from 38 per cent the year before.

But Scotland needs only about 80 per cent of the electricity produced north of the Border for its own consumption and exports about 20 per cent to England.

The First Minister said that, because the amount of power from renewables has increased, and the level from nuclear has reduced, Scotland has reached the point where nuclear power was no longer an essential element of the energy mix.

So, if both its nuclear power stations were shut down, Scotland would not have to import electricity but could survive with other, existing sources.

This, Mr Salmond said, undermined the argument that Scotland would have an energy gap without nuclear power.

Mr Salmond also claimed Scotland would become a big net exporter of electricity to Europe in the medium to long term. "Far from there being an energy gap in Scotland, there is a strong indication that, within a generation, we will be producing four, five or six times our required electricity in Scotland, and the key issue is finding a way of exporting that power to the energy-poor regions of Europe," he said.

Scotland is, however, still heavily reliant on oil and gas – together, they make up more than 50 per cent of electricity production. And, despite the big drive to develop green energy, renewables – including hydro power – make up only about 13 per cent of electricity generation.

Jason Ormiston, the chief executive of Scottish Renewables, the trade association, said Mr Salmond's assessment was right, but the real issue was whether Scotland really wanted to be completely nuclear free.

He said: "Statistically, it is accurate. We would be able to supply all of Scotland's energy needs without nuclear. The question is 'do we want to?'. It seems a bit risky to do without nuclear. Would we be just surviving? Is it possible, and advisable, to have a cushion that gives us a bit more confidence?"

The Scottish Government has targeted producing 31 per cent of Scotland's electricity from renewables by 2011 and 50 per cent by 2020. A spokesman insisted it was on course to meet these targets because the renewables sector, although still small, was growing rapidly – by 46 per cent in the past year.

Mr Hutton attacked the Scottish Government's position when he announced his nuclear plans in the Commons yesterday.

He said he accepted Scottish ministers were entitled to take their own stand on this issue,

but he added: "I think that it is a mistake that Scottish ministers are making, and I think it is more to do with a political stunt than taking responsible long-term decisions in the best interests of either Scottish electricity consumers, or the wider UK perspective.

"I regret that, and I believe that Scottish ministers will come to regret that decision too."

Mr Hutton told MPs that, with a third of the UK's generating capacity coming offline within the next 20 years, and with an increasing reliance on imported energy, it was clear that investment was needed in a range of new infrastructure.

He will now invite companies to be involved in nuclear building programmes and said he expected the first station to be completed well before 2020.

He conceded no nuclear plant had been built anywhere in the world without public money but insisted there would be no subsidies from the UK government.

Mr Hutton said: "The government believes it is in the public interest that new nuclear power stations should have a role to play in this country's future energy mix, alongside other low-carbon sources; that it would be in the public interest to allow energy companies the option of investing in new nuclear power stations, and that the government should take active steps to open up the way to the construction of new nuclear power stations.

"It will be for energy companies to fund, develop and build new nuclear power stations in the UK, including meeting the full costs of decommissioning and their full share of waste management costs."

It emerged later that energy companies believe an extra four nuclear stations will be needed and these will be sited alongside existing plants.

The government's announcement was warmly welcomed by pro-nuclear and business groups as well as unions representing nuclear workers, but was attacked by environmentalists, some opposition politicians and a few Labour supporters.

Ken Livingstone, the London mayor, described it as the "mistake of a generation", while Greenpeace said the radioactive waste problem was still the "roadblock" to new nuclear power.

Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, said: "If new stations are built, it will add to stockpiles of unmanageable waste and create new targets for terrorists."

But the decision was welcomed by unions representing workers in the nuclear industry and by the Tories, who were disappointed Scotland was going to miss out. David Mundell, the shadow Scottish secretary, said: "It is a wasted economic opportunity for Scotland and there is every chance it will eventually lead us to import electricity."

Lewis Macdonald, MSP, Labour's energy spokesman, said the SNP had cast "a huge shadow" over Scotland's future energy needs. "Their refusal to consider new nuclear energy as part of Scotland's energy mix is short-sighted and leaves Scotland without a coherent energy strategy," he said.

Nation must take a lead on renewable sources of energy if it is to remain free of N-power

ALEX Salmond's claims that Scotland is effectively nuclear free could be technically possible and viable – but only if it is met with action. The Scottish Government must, if it is to continue down the renewables path, deal more consistently with local planning applications.

In particular, ministers must make sure the controversial line from Beauly to Denny goes through.

If Scotland did meet 40-50 per cent of its energy from renewable energy sources, then it will be self-sufficient until 2020. Beyond that, however, energy conservation measures will have to be more forcefully employed.

If, however, the Scottish Government decides to go intensively down the renewables path, then

some fossil fuels will be needed as back-up.

But if Scotland invests properly in this technology, then it could become an innovator, as Denmark was with wind power.

What is clear, is that the move towards renewables is no more risky than going down the nuclear path. As far back as 2000, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution identified a range of scenarios showing that the UK's energy needs to 2050 could be met in a range of ways while reducing emissions substantially.

It could be done with energy conservation and large-scale deployment of a range of renewable technologies – principally biomass, onshore and offshore wind and some newer technologies, such as wave energy, towards the end of the period. If the landscape implications of all these renewables was too much to bear, then 46 new nuclear power plants would do the trick (rather more than was announced yesterday).

Energy needs could also be met through aggressively pursuing energy conservation, combined heat and power and a more limited range of renewables to achieve the same ends.

All are technically possible and all would cost more or less the same, according to the Royal Commission.

The Forum for Renewable Energy Development and later Edinburgh University showed that at least 40 per cent of Scotland's electricity needs come from renewables and that, with a mix of technologies, the lights would stay on.

The problem for Scotland is not about whether the future gap can be filled, but rather about how – and the consequences. Do we choose renewables and alter our landscape and land-use patterns or do we choose nuclear, possibly at the expense of telling the world we are leaders in carbon reduction but using a technology we would be reluctant to see used in certain parts of the world?

Do we consolidate our fossil-fuel dependence by opting for coal and carbon capture or do we at last bite the bullet and improve the energy performance of our workplaces and homes? There is no right or wrong answer – only challenges of delivery.

• Fred Dinning retired as director of energy and environment at ScottishPower in December 2005 following a career spanning all aspects of energy generation, supply and use

UNDERGROUND STORAGE PLAN

NUCLEAR waste is likely to be stored deep underground in sites volunteered by local communities, ministers revealed yesterday.

Hilary Benn, the Environment Secretary at Westminster, said: "The government view is that the consultation responses indicate support for managing higher activity radioactive waste in the long term through geological disposal."

The UK government will invite local communities to volunteer to host the underground sites, with a benefits package offered in return.

The document, published yesterday following consultations last year, added: "A call for communities to express an interest will come later, once the responses to the consultation have been assessed and government has published the white paper in 2008."

The white paper is due to be published in the spring.

Previous proposals for "nuclear waste dumps" have sparked huge local protests – something that ministers are seeking to avoid by asking communities to volunteer to host sites.

Ministers are also understood to be considering the option of eventually creating an undersea storage system, possibly off the Cumbrian coast.

However, this option was not confirmed in yesterday's document.

Mr Benn added: "The government continues to see geological disposal as the way forward for the long-term management of higher-activity radioactive waste."

Such materials would come not only from the proposed new generation of nuclear power stations, but also from medical, military and academic sources.

John Hutton, the Business Secretary, told MPs in the Commons that energy companies would bear the full cost of eventually decommissioning new stations at the end of their life and meet "each operator's full share of waste management costs".

However, a spokesman for Greenpeace said last night:

"The government's nuclear policy looks like a dog's breakfast.

"Ministers are proposing to store highly radioactive waste in the ground, but the only area so far mooted is Cumbria, which the government's own advisers have already ruled out on safety grounds.

"You have to wonder what on Earth is going on in Whitehall."



The full article contains 1991 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 January 2008 9:00 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear energy
 
1

,

11/01/2008 00:27:45
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2

,

11/01/2008 00:34:52
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3

Rich Grey,

Manchester, Connecticut USA 11/01/2008 00:40:46
Remember that oil and gas will only last another 10 to 20 years as an economical source of energy before its scarcity drives up the price out of sight and there are only a limited amount of windmill and water power sites available. Don't squander to stay ahead in your energy independence of Scotland and be held 'over a barrel'(yes its a bad pun) like the US has to face with our need to import more than 60% of our oil
4

Royster,

11/01/2008 00:43:13
Probably best to stick with nuclear for the time being until renewables can come up to scratch. Seems like a good idea to have a mix of energy resources. So what if Scotland can just scrape enough energy to survive? We have to do what is in the best interest of the UK not just Scotland. I see England has gained 4 new nuclear power stations.
5

SlyFifer,

California 11/01/2008 00:43:52
Few countries in the world can claim to self sufficient in certain types of energy. For a country the sixe of Scotland with it's tiny population not a difficult feat. Changes in world climate may put pressure on this statistic in years to come. Head in the sand attitude towards modern nuclear power may come back to bite Salmond's nether regions. It is however totally up to Scotland how it powers it'self now, and in the future. I would pay not one blind bit of notice what happens the other side of the border any more than I would worry what the energy policy of Brazil was.
6

BMeister,

11/01/2008 00:44:58
2 Yuro

End of problem - until presumably one of the rockets goes pop and drops 20 tons of nuclear waste back down?
7

,

11/01/2008 00:58:40
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8

,

11/01/2008 01:06:30
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9

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 11/01/2008 01:11:26
Scotland is sitting on enough Coal to last at least 100 years.

What's wrong with Coal powered Electricity generation using new, "clean technology"?

Oh, and it's cheaper than the Nuclear option as well, and doesn't leave anything nasty behind that will poison the environent until Kingdom come......
10

,

11/01/2008 01:11:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

Yuro Raitt,

11/01/2008 01:23:42
Real News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7182376.stm
12

Yuro Raitt,

11/01/2008 01:25:31
#s 6,8,

Respect, brothers!
13

The Strategist,

11/01/2008 01:41:22
Unless there is considerably more private sector investment in renewable technologies then it is very difficult to see how a renewables only possible solution is achievable.. The Scottish financial institutions have to got to step up to the bar and start acting responsibly.
14

Jock 107,

11/01/2008 01:56:10
The MWPs have taken more investment from us! If we got one built here, that would be the same as 10 Trump courses, but they won't let us, based on these proposals!

More Power for Scotland!
15

mac1888,

11/01/2008 02:04:49
#7 scotlands population is actually rising,agree on everything else u say though :0
16

lush,

11/01/2008 02:20:54
Hahahahahahaha......is Alex Salmond having a laugh? Nuclear is the only way to meet the future power and environmental requirements. End of.
17

Royster,

11/01/2008 02:22:45
#18. Thanks to SNP bluster, high-tech nuclear power jobs have gone soley to England. The SNP obviously favours menial jobs such as waitressing at Trump-powered golf courses.
18

Jock 107,

11/01/2008 02:42:40
#21 #18
Aah... didn't realise Alex vetoed this investment. He must have good reasons. If that's right then

More Power frae England!

Och, this freedom thing is awfly complex
19

tomi,

11/01/2008 02:44:40
Scots are fools if they reject the great opportunity that this second generation of nuclear power could provide.

Yes! There are problems about safe containment and nuclear waste management; BUT!! What are the potentials for the nation who can solve these problems??

There are answers to these questions.

In fact, the major problem of nuclear waste is that it does contain large ammounts of inherent energy; harness the energy of the waste, and that is a giant step.

Look how much our knowledge has expanded in other fields in the last 20 years. Don't you think that we can do the same in the field of Nuclear Power Generation?

Scotland has provided many great scientists throught the years, and we have the people who can advance scientific knowledge in all fields.
Do not reject nuclear power because of fear and prejudice!
These alternative technologies are all very well, and I have no desire not to see them explored and developed. They could well be very good, and if not actually used, there is always practical spin-offs in all good scientific research.

Do not be prejudiced against nuclear power!!

Let's do the research, and let's develope new, safe and plentyfull nuclear power technology.

There is so much potential within Scotland, and within the atom!!

Let it not be wasted!!

20

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 11/01/2008 03:24:10
What a wonderful display! Alex Salmond, the man who magicked-up "six times" Scotland's current energy requirements while simultaneously running down her only nuclear generating plants! Merciful heavens, can a balanced budget and a full head of hair for all Scotsmen over sixty be far behind?

Yep, Scotland can indeed be self-sufficient in energy without nuclear power. All you need are a few hundred thousand windmills, a few hundred thousand more of those wave rockers, a million or so sets of bagpipes hooked up to the grid and the energy consumption pattern of the shabby end of Basra.

When Salmond and the greeny brigade convince everbody that it's only socially acceptable to boil a kettle on your street number's designated day of the month then Scotland's energy needs will be easily met.
21

W Smith,

Middle East 11/01/2008 04:07:59
1) To save the planet will Salmond give up his Lexus to buy the new Tata Nano? Made in India, it costs around £1,200 - about the same as the DVD player in a new Lexus!

This car gets 50 mpg - every MSP should be forced to drive one and practice what they preach.

2) The cost arguement againsst nuclear power doesn't wash as the SNP have never complained about Mr Brown spendig £167.5 billion a year on quangos.

The SNP have complained about the £7 billion spent on the Iraq War - thats 4% of what was spent on quangos.

So its not just Scottish kids that lack numeracy - our First Minister doesn't know how to use a calculator.

Talk about being penny wise and pound foolish.

3) Salmond is against western countries having nuclear energy and nuclear weapons - but he's quite happy to see Iran and Pakistan developing theirs.

This is typical anti-NATO doctrine coming from the fifth column SNP.

Weaken your home nation but hope your home nations enemies get stronger.

Salmond the commie had the same routine as a member of the 79 Group.

No problem with the Soviet Union and North Korea having nuclear power plants and nuclear missiles eh Salmond?

4) The Salmond-istas think they have managed to outsmart the German, Japanese, and American engineers with this 'discovery' that a few windmills can replace nuclear power stations and supply all our industries needs.

If only Japan, USA, and Germany had people as clever as our Salmond they wouldn't have to build all these nuclear power stations.

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind" - Alex Dylan Salmond.

22

Scozzy,

11/01/2008 04:44:39
This is welcome news and puts Scotland in the right direction towards a sustainable future based on renewable energy.

As well as the massive environmental and safety risks associated with nuclear power it is a little known fact that the Uranium Information Centre in Melbourne reports that there is only enough uranium to last for power genaration for 70 years at present usage rates. Obviously more deposits may be discovered in the future but this will more than likely be offset by the increase in nuclear reactors around the globe.
23

master mariner,

at sea 11/01/2008 05:17:10
fair enough if we dont want them we dont have them. Not sure we can tree hug our way out of this but there again I am not an expert, Just dont complain if we have to import skilled , experienced engineers to build ones in scotland at a later date.
24

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

11/01/2008 05:17:11
I seem to remember it being touted that Scotland could deal with the worlds nuclear waste after 17 of the proposed dumping sites were situated in Scotland.

Accept nucleare stations in Scotland, accept the worlds waste because that's what Westminster wants.
25

Alan Reid,

Wellington 11/01/2008 05:46:46
You cannot trust nuclear have a look at the following link, Also it's costing the UK taxpayer 70 Billion to decomission the plants coming up for the end of their service life. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2666418.ece

AM: "but with offshore wind, for example, currently costing twice as much as nuclear (including decommissioning) there's a very long way to go" Complete rubbish as usual.
W Smith: same anti SNP sh@te, change the record. It's not Scotland remit to provide England with cheap clean power.

26

Royster,

11/01/2008 06:16:26
#28. Where there's muck, there's brass.
27

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 11/01/2008 06:19:03
Hey Dudes..not including the do nothing SNP squawkers.

Your pip squeak province of the UK, Scotland , has its own natural renewable energy resources:

Wind and Waves.and they are constant and will last forever, or close.

Science and technology is constantly going forward in efficiency, and in lowering cost to manufacture.

25 or 50 years or 100 from 2008 will see the dawn of incredibly efficient wind turbines producing energy at far lower cost than we pay for a barrel of oil to day.

So come out of your dark damp gray dingy houses. Seize the opportunities and build your energy horizons for tomorrow .

BUT FIRST, Ye'all STOP SQUAWKING.

GC
28

Royster,

11/01/2008 06:24:41
I think the nuclear waste business is the way to go; it's high margin. I mean what competition do you have? It's not as if you can wash it down Kenny Richey's mum's launderette in Embra.
29

James,

11/01/2008 06:41:40
What abour Fr. David Cairns who laid into the SNP but wibbled and wobbled when asked to explain the position of the (Ahem) 'Scottish' Labour Party whish is anti-nuclear. Labour - anti-nuke until they are in power.

Dont worry London it wont be the Thames, It'll be Sellafield, Hinckley Point, Sizewell and Dungeness for the 4 new reactors - not on stream to the 2020s - by which time Scotland will have projects for another 4 new Hydro Plants, and be Independent.

Nuke plant five nomination is for Hull eh Royster the Housemartin?
30

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 11/01/2008 06:57:10
I agree with Salmond (at last).

No nuclear plant has ever earned its keep. Everyone requires huge subsidies (often cleverly hidden-try asking France about its waste, for example).

A basket of renewables is the answer. If we do for marine turbine R&D and production what Germany is doing for Photo Voltaic Scotland can sustainably and reliably power the planet.
31

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 11/01/2008 07:05:57
I don't like nuclear but in the medium term, there is no other solution. Denmark is one of the world leaders in renewables but, despite it's long lead in 'green' energy production, only 18.5% of its energy generation comes from them. Like Scotland, Denmark has banned the construction of nuclear power stations, however, the Danes cannot currently meet peak demands with home generation, so they buy it in from France and Germany - two of Europe's leading nuclear generators! Seems a tad hypocritical if you ask me. Will Scotland have to do the same from England and at what price? Come on Alex, show us the figures!!
32

glassbenmhor,

11/01/2008 07:50:35
#25 W(h)Smith,hey whats it like back there in HISTORY
33

conservative,

Fife 11/01/2008 08:07:36
What an idiot Salmond is for the sake of a political point. Coal will run out. Even 'clean' coal (an unproven technology) isn't really clean - it only puts the huge amount of pollutants into storage. Renewables such as wind are temperamental and hugely expensive. Nuclear energy is the major near-term solution. With luck we'll see the back of this selfish oaf and his gang of numpties before the lights go out.
34

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 11/01/2008 08:10:59
On second thoughts, shouldn't the headline read 'Salmond is redundant in a nuclear-free Briton'?
35

missing home,

la verne 11/01/2008 08:14:30
2. Yuro, trouble is, we're PART of the universe! Is it not enough we've mucked up this planet, you want to take it further?
36

danielrober,

11/01/2008 08:15:56
Over the moon.


Lets see the Universities in Glasgow produce the next generation of engineers. Cleaner, better educated and dedicated to peacefull use of nuclear energy.

Lets see Aberdean engineeing services move over in to nuclear and deliver their standards of reliability.

Well done, Prime Minister Brown.

NOW this will be fun. Something to get our teeth into and train a NEW generation of engineers.
37

missing home,

la verne 11/01/2008 08:17:03
For once I actually agree with GC, God help me! The winds the west coast got the other day could have fueled the planet!
38

Unimpressed one,

11/01/2008 08:20:21
Just imagine all the Scottish communities that would have fought tooth and nail to act as repositories for future waste. Salmond has put an end to that wee nest egg!. We Scots will be seen as a nation of luddites, governed by socialist opportunists, whose policices are not driven by national needs, but are designed to be anti-unionist just for the sheer hell of it.
39

Unimpressed one,

11/01/2008 08:22:51
#41, Danielrober, agree with you there. However I suspect that once trained, the new generation of engineers and scientists will shift south of the border to where the action is as opposed to staying here in this luddite backwater.
40

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/01/2008 08:32:43
Thank goodness for commonsense! I've been involved in campaigining against nuclear power for 30 years. The issue of the disposal of the waste is not one that will go away for over a few thousand years, no matter what the apologists for NP tell you (and there are plenty on here today!). As for the rubbish being spouted about luddites etc., there are wonderful opportunities in the development of renewables and clean-carbon technologies for Scotland to be at the forefront of these technologies. Wake up and smell the coffee....
41

Alasdair,

11/01/2008 08:35:17
It's hard to say that we could be completely nuclear free and still sufficient, but we're in one of the best positions in the world.
We have a relatively small population, and weather and geography makes our potential for further hydro power as good as it gets.
42

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/01/2008 08:38:59
Let's also remember that the SNP's position is also the same as the last Labour-Lib Dem. administration.
43

Iain's,

11/01/2008 08:40:02
Nuclear is supported by the UK government. The spin should not detract from the truth. How is nuclear good for us but evil for Iran. If Nuclear is best for us, it is best for everyone.

Scotland has water. Too much water. Hydro electric is not new.
Way back, Rudyard Kipling had his house lit by his own mini hydro scheme. Renewable, totally hidden and clean.

I will only support nuclear if a plant is built in Greater London.

44

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 08:40:08
Well tata from all the nuclear engineers up here, they are all off down south where there will be jobs and opportunities. I get the impression that we could attach some sort of devise in front of the Salmond to collect all the hot air and anti UK sentiment, that should keep a couple of toons in kilowatts for a few months at a time!
45

Harbinger,

land of my Turbines 11/01/2008 08:45:24
#42 The whole point about wind power is that in the high winds recently they would have to have been shut down, or the blades would take off. 55mph wind is the top limit and in the Summer there will be precious little if the computer models are right, with hotter temperatures. Hot days equal very little wind and no power below 12 mph. That's why energy companies only factor wind power into the grid at around 10% because it is so unreliable. And they need conventional back up to cover the other 90%, so more wind means more conventional power stations, coal or otherwise. Oh, don't forget the billion quid subsidy going into wind power, which is a large part of current energy price rises.
46

Dissector,

Stirling 11/01/2008 08:51:16
As ever, Slippery Fish has sought to grab the populist headline omitting the key damaging factor that over 50% of all Scottish electricity is generated by oil and gas which will contiuously go up in price. He and his sprats will have retired from office when the lights go out leaving the problem to others with a more balanced outlook on necessity.A plague on the SNP shambles.
47

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 08:53:22
Go to the seaside - sit and observe through a tide cycle and you will see the unlimited source of energy just waiting to be tapped.

The problem is how to tap the energy but I'm sure human ingenuity will come up with the answer if enough money and effort is applied to the problem.
48

New Town Resident,

11/01/2008 08:54:05
42. When the wind blows hard wind farms have to be shut down for safety reasons.

46. You seem to have bought the typical Salmond highly misleading claims pandering to the understandable ignorance most people have oveer a highly complex electricity system.

Its not a question of who uses what kind of power, but who pays.

We have a GB electricity system. Renewables recieve a subsidy of £90/Mwh for power only worth £50/MwH - i.e. they get £140/MWh. This subsidy is guaranteed by the UK government and is 90% paid by the England and Wales consumers in their final electricity bills. (They are 90% of GB consumers). Similarly they pay 90% of the costs of new Scottish power lines.

So if Scotland is "self-suffcient" and can do its own thing, then logically Scottish consumers should pay for 100% of the renewables subsidy and 100% of the cost of new power lines. Right?

Can the SNP supporters please address this question rather than just sloganise. You either have a GB system and therefore are part of the GB energy policy, or logically you pay your own costs on a "self-sufficient" basis. Under these circumsatnces the price of power in Scotland would more than double because it would lose the 90% renewables and power line payments from south of the border.

I find SNP cherry picking intellectually exasperating. Of course nuclear would need a subsidy too (not as much as renewables), so actually rejecting nuclear in Scotland is refusing a subsidy gift horse for Scotland. OK if you are against in principle, but at least understand power costs and payments.
49

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 09:10:34
NUCLEAR waste is likely to be stored deep underground in sites volunteered by local communities, ministers revealed yesterday.

Hilary Benn, the Environment Secretary at Westminster, said: "The government view is that the consultation responses indicate support for managing higher activity radioactive waste in the long term through geological disposal."

I have serious,serious reservations about any nuclear waste being stored in sub surface cavities wether it be caves or old mines.

Unless we want to pollute the water table and kill us all I would urge all people in scotland to say NO to this type of practice.

I also have serious reservations that the government at westminster are drawing up plans to use scotland for the ultimate sacrifice, we become Europes dumping ground for all their nuclear waste.
50

JG,

Fife 11/01/2008 09:13:30
This is all very well but should the renewable power options not be in place BEFORE we rule out nuclear power? As far as I know we don't have sufficient wave technology or wind farms to keep us all going. Salmond will change his tune when his Jimmy Shand records grind to a halt!
51

New Town Resident,

11/01/2008 09:17:47
-55. Why do you assume victimhood up front? Most of the suitable underground sites are in England so actually its the other way around. Also they are several thousand feet below the water table.
52

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:21:32
I don't have a problem with nuclear power and Mr Salmonds attitude is more to do with creating conflit in Westminster than any sensible policy of energy production for the future.
The investment and opportunities any developments may bring could be invaluable to rural Scotland (far better than a stupid golf course anyway...) as they are in parts of England - Sellafield in Cumbria is a good example.

#55 I wouldnt worry about the waste being dumped in Scotland - it is not worth the hassle to Westminster, I would guess that waste will be stored in England - almost certainly at Sellafield (though this is still probably close enough to Scotland to upset some of you...)
53

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 11/01/2008 09:29:56
More backward, inward looking nonsense from the tartan tories.
54

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:30:36
52.

The load factor for coal and nuclear is 65-85%; for wind it is 25-40%. For wind penetration up to around 20%, a reasonable level, the capacity credit of wind energy is about the same as the installed capacity multiplied by the load factor. In other words if there is 100 MW of wind energy installed in the country, then this can be relied upon to replace (or avoid the need to build) 30 MW of thermal or nuclear generation capacity.

Also, the wind blows more in the winter when more power is needed.
55

Mikey,

11/01/2008 09:31:46
I see that now the Westminster crew has spoken, their fifth column has felt the urge to do down Scotland once again. Really folks, if this wee country is such a bind, why don't you just take your cranial cavities down to Windscale where, I have no doubt, you'll be extremely happy.



56

flogelsleftpeg,

11/01/2008 09:32:10
What do the folks here complaining about nuclear actually think this waste is going to do to them?
57

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:32:24
sorry, 60 was for 51.
58

flogelsleftpeg,

11/01/2008 09:33:10
That should be nuclear waste.
59

Mikey,

11/01/2008 09:34:03
Jam Tarts, are you referring to the Prime Minister who admired Thatcher and then invited her to Downing Street? One Gordon Brown, leader of the NuLab party?

If you're not, you're not really very bright, are you?
60

C U Jimmy,

Ayrshire 11/01/2008 09:40:18
If as a recent report says, that we export 30% of the energy we produce, why do the power suppliers increase our prices and blame it on the rise in oil prices?
61

nick prince,

warrington 11/01/2008 10:03:25
Tomi at 23 good post, you almost persuaded me but remember the nuclear power industry was only really around to provide a source of weapons grade plutonium,

Remember also how the nuclear industry via its fees and grants system was responsible for research into renewables, funnily enough they managed to close down the salter's ducks tidal energy capture scheme. They felt they needed no rivals to good ole nuclear power.

This industry will always be linked to military secrecy and will always need state subsidy. What happens when a state collapses?

The neo nuclear lobby are also always going about how incredibly safe nuclear power is, so is a rattle snake, unless, of course, it bites you. Is a wind turbine when it goes wonky ever going to threaten you the same way? Or a salter's duck?

Also remember that nuclear power is capital and not labour intensive and that it is very centralised and can be turned of and withheld more easily than diverse resources.

To rely on Nuclear Power you need to also be able to rely on state responsibilty
62

Geoff,

South Africa 11/01/2008 10:05:38
Again-an interesting debate although the Unionist-Nationalist divide colours all!

Just a note for those enthusing about the merits of Hydro. As with all systems, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Damming rivers or otherwise interfering with natural flows, has an environmental cost to river systems,fish stocks and the crucial estuarine "nurseries". This has been recognised in the USA for example, to the extent that some dams have actually been removed ! If you do the accounting properly, it can be shown that dams-especially large ones,are not only NOT cost effective but generate environmental probs that far outweigh any supposed benefits. An extreme example here would be the Aral Sea catastrophe in the former USSR. Faced with the near certainty that unless we deal with co2 emissions almost immediately we face disaster, then Nuclear Power will buy us some critical time, waste problems notwith standing. The REAL answers lie in addressing runaway population growths worldwide and implementing radical energy saving measures. Scotland with its high energy potential and low stable population would seem to be ideally placed in this scenario BUT in todays world, no man(or nation) is an Island. The Global Village with all its ills is inescapable.
63

Arfur,

11/01/2008 10:12:44
Not only do we have enough non nucular power to satisfy Scotland but when Independance comes Engurland will need to by oil from Scotland.

We could also have more wind farms out in the north sea and sell the energy generated to England.
64

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 11/01/2008 10:17:46
Excellent news for Scotland. We need to invest seriously now in wave/tidal power and it can be a very important export for the future.

Sad news for England and Wales. The price will be increased pollution, increased cancer, a significant security risk and the waste of billions of pounds. I didn't expect GB to be swayed by environmental concerns but I thought he was capable of doing his sums...

Unfortunately the sad bit for us is that we are also at risk from the nuclear nonsense. They should be building any new nuclear power stations in the South East of England, and no doubt MPs will vote for the bribe and store the nuclear waste under Westminster, but the pollution and the health risks will still not be confined.
65

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 10:18:32
"He predicted the figures for the past 12 months – which will not be published until the end of this year – would show the amount of electricity generated in Scotland from non- nuclear sources would cover the country's entire needs."

So we are almost there without nuclear, or is this lies from Alex Salmond?

The Labour party in Scotland are split on the issue. The Labour party are split! This is desperate Unionist posturing, panic stricken paranoid poltics, to late, to late your fascist Union has gone. ALBA GU BRATH. GOD BLESS AND KEEP ALEC SALMOND.

There is a whole new future for Scotland in becoming a world leader in renewables when we get the Westminster monkey of our backs.

We do not need the UK grid. The UK grid needs Scotland. We can easily set up a North Sea grid, sharing with other small independent sustainable countries.

This country has no need for dirty nuclear poison plants. There are farms in this country that cannot sell their produce since Chernobyl.There are lukemia and cancer clusters in the same areas, figures that are being suppressed and denied by government.

10s of thousands have died as a result of nuclear accidents and pollution. The Irish sea and Pentland Firth are full of nuclear particles. The cost to us for cleaning Dounreay multiplies every time it is published. Sandside beach in Caithness will be out of bounds for 1,000 years because of Dounreay.

The SNP are completely correct in their anti-nuclear stance, it is a dirty corrupt industry, which has zero credibility, and has Westminster in it's pocket, because of vested interests. The politicians know if they support nuclear that there is a very lucrative career waiting for them when they get voted out of office.
66

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 10:26:39
AND THEN THERE IS THIS:

Professor Stephen Salter, of Edinburgh University, claims tidal energy potential in the far north may have been significantly underestimated and has urged the new Scottish government and industry leaders to invest more resources in research.

The eminent scientist believes the Firth's most powerful currents, found in depths previously considered out of reach, could be converted to between 10 and 20 gigawatts of electricity – rendering endless supplies for the country's homes and businesses. Prof Salter, who produced an energy review for the SNP , warned that investment would be needed to explore and understand the Firth's varying currents and waves.

"If Scotland truly wants reliable marine current energy with generators which are strong enough... we must build a model test tank with complete control of both waves and currents," he says. "The size of the resource in the Pentland Firth may be larger than that predicted from studies which assumed only shallow-water turbines and ignored bottom friction losses. With turbines designed for deployment in 70 metres' depth, the resource could exceed present UK nuclear capacity."

Prof Salter has spent 10 years exploring the potential of tidal energy and has developed a cylindrical turbine which he believes could reach down to depths of 50m. His turbines could operate in conjunction with seabed-based turbines which could reach 20m upwards from the bottom.

Prof Salter explained that the positioning of the underwater turbines in the firth would be flexible but would be built progressively from the east. "It would be best if the lines of turbines could be placed towards the easterly end of the channel so as to avoid the largest Atlantic waves. A line from Duncansby Head to Muckle Skerry looks a good place to start," he states.

If sufficient investment materialises the turbines could be installed in eight to 10 years' time. A seabed cable running underwater along the east coast to Peterhead
67

Gothic Rose,

11/01/2008 10:27:15
62# It has the unfortunate habit of turning you into a radio active isotope.This may, or may not be, of any consequence to your protouns ect.However, that which makes up your organic matter,finds it all quite,quite, incompatible.
68

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 10:34:19
We have the talent, the brain power, the R&D, to bring forward this renewable technology. Scottish education, inventivness, and engineering wil come to the fore as it was during the industrial revolution, why do I say this? Because:

Graduates from Scottish universities outperform their counterparts in all other parts of the UK, according to new figures.

Officials statistics show that 16% of those graduating north of the border do so with a first class honours degree compared with 13% in Northern Ireland, 12% in England and 11% in Wales.

Graduates from Scottish universities also get the joint highest proportion of upper second class degrees with 52% achieving the benchmark - the same as in Northern Ireland. In England, 47% get 2:1s while in Wales the figure is 45%.

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The stringent marking of degrees, which involves two separate checks by university staff and a third assessment by an independent external examiner, means the marks attained in each part of the UK can be compared.

Last night, Universities Scotland, which represents university principals, said the high achievement level of Scottish graduates was proof of the quality of education on offer.

"These figures continue to be very encouraging. Scotland consistently produces graduates with better average qualifications than the UK as a whole," said a spokesman.

From The Herald.
69

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:34:58
How about using the hot air generated by Alex Salmond and the SNP?
70

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:36:51
#33 james why dod you find it necessary to refer to David Cairns as Fr.?

Just showing your own prejudices perhaps?
71

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 10:37:25
Hen Broon 5 (71): "10s of thousands have died as a result of nuclear accidents and pollution."

In other words, far fewer than have died from tobacco consumption and road accidents in the intervening years: your statistic is an argument for the relative safety of nuclear power. It's true that Britain still restricts some produce due to caesium contamination from Chernobyl, but it's not clear how dangerous that produce would actually be, although, given that relatively few areas are affected, the risk isn't worth taking. Some of the findings on Chernobyl are summarized in this BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173310.stm
72

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:42:04
#61 The old crap that if you disagree with the SNP you are somehow "doing down Scotland".

The cult-like following of the Dear Leader is barindead to say the least - any debate on energy must examine all options - and include both a short-term and long-term prognosis.
73

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:42:45
#77 Not to mention those who have died mining for coal and drilling for oil and gas.
74

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:00:07
Hen Broon 5 (74): "The stringent marking of degrees, which involves two separate checks by university staff and a third assessment by an independent external examiner, means the marks attained in each part of the UK can be compared."

As an academic and an external examiner, I can assure you that this is not true: the standard required to achieve a 1st class degree, or a 2.1 varies greatly between universities. The external examiner prevents some types of corruption arising, and does provide some limit on grade inflation, but the result only ensures rough comparability between universities accepting students of roughly equal ability. The reason is a simple one: the proportion of 1st and 2.1 class degrees awarded by universities does not vary as much as the average ability of their students, and it is this property that diminishes the correlation between "A"-level performance and final degree class. Thus a good, but not brilliant, mathematics undergraduate might get a 1st at one of the University of London colleges, say, but a 2nd at Cambridge.

Incidentally, I suspect that this is part of the reason for the statistical difference between Scottish universities and English ones. In Scotland, there is still a strong tendency to choose the local university, whilst in England students choose the best university they can attain given ability. The result is that any good English university contains students who were only just good enough to gain entry, but are then below average relative to their peers: their final degree class is then lower than if they had chosen a university at which their ability would be average (or above average).
75

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:06:31
#69
By the time Scotland gets Independance from "Engurland" there will be sod all left so you cannot rely on that.

You also seem to be forgetting that England itself has its own very large coast line and so will be perfectly able to produce their own power from it. But if they invest in Nuclear (and Scotland says no) you may find that in the future that Scotland will be the imported from the South as regardless as what Mr Salmond says over 50% of Scotlands current needs are from oil/gas/coal and these are rapidly running out.
76

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:07:13
sorry that should say "be importing"
77

Captain Flint,

Sunny Scotland 11/01/2008 11:09:40
Hip Hip Hooray!

10 new nuclear reactors = 4% cut in UK greenhouse gas emissions in 15 years time!

We're all saved! And in the nick of time!

But seriously - the amount that will be spent on these white elephants could easily have resulted in far greater carbon savings being made far sooner.

And is there anyone out there who believes Gordon Brown's insistence that the taxpayer won't end up bailing the nuclear industry out again?

Finally - are there any intrepid Scotsman readers prepared to put their money where their mouths are and invest their cash in new nuclear reactors? Form and orderly queue - if you're stupid enough.
78

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:09:41
Duncan (79): "#77 Not to mention those who have died mining for coal and drilling for oil and gas."

Agreed. We could also add the many illnesses and deaths due to coal/oil pollution. My family consists mostly of asthmatic Londoners and, although I was born in the mid-1960s, family stories of the effects of smog before the Clear Air Acts are legion.
79

Rampant,

London 11/01/2008 11:10:03
Its all very well the SNP saying that Scotland is going to be Nu