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Salmond: nuclear redundant in self-sufficient Scotland

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Published Date: 11 January 2008
SCOTLAND produced enough non-nuclear electricity to satisfy all its power needs last year, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said yesterday, as divisions deepened between Holyrood and Westminster over energy policy.
His claim came on the day the UK government announced plans for four new nuclear stations south of the Border, arguing this was the only way to guarantee reliable, environmentally friendly electricity for the foreseeable future.

John Hutton, the
Business Secretary, even accused Scottish ministers – who are opposed to new nuclear stations in Scotland – of making "a mistake" they would come to regret.

As the row over nuclear power re- ignited, Mr Salmond played his trump card: the assertion that Scotland was already self-sufficient in non-nuclear electricity.

He predicted the figures for the past 12 months – which will not be published until the end of this year – would show the amount of electricity generated in Scotland from non- nuclear sources would cover the country's entire needs.

The First Minister said: "In 2006, we were producing more of our electricity from non-nuclear sources – 92.5 per cent of our consumption could have come from these.

"And I think you will find that, in 2007, 100 per cent of our consumption of electricity will have been met from non-nuclear sources. Hunterston B (nuclear station] was out for virtually all of 2007.

"Our aim is a non-nuclear Scotland. We are not going to close nuclear stations; they will come to the end of their natural lives and then will be shut."

According to the latest UK government statistics, Scotland's two nuclear power stations produced 26 per cent of the electricity generated in Scotland in 2006, down from 38 per cent the year before.

But Scotland needs only about 80 per cent of the electricity produced north of the Border for its own consumption and exports about 20 per cent to England.

The First Minister said that, because the amount of power from renewables has increased, and the level from nuclear has reduced, Scotland has reached the point where nuclear power was no longer an essential element of the energy mix.

So, if both its nuclear power stations were shut down, Scotland would not have to import electricity but could survive with other, existing sources.

This, Mr Salmond said, undermined the argument that Scotland would have an energy gap without nuclear power.

Mr Salmond also claimed Scotland would become a big net exporter of electricity to Europe in the medium to long term. "Far from there being an energy gap in Scotland, there is a strong indication that, within a generation, we will be producing four, five or six times our required electricity in Scotland, and the key issue is finding a way of exporting that power to the energy-poor regions of Europe," he said.

Scotland is, however, still heavily reliant on oil and gas – together, they make up more than 50 per cent of electricity production. And, despite the big drive to develop green energy, renewables – including hydro power – make up only about 13 per cent of electricity generation.

Jason Ormiston, the chief executive of Scottish Renewables, the trade association, said Mr Salmond's assessment was right, but the real issue was whether Scotland really wanted to be completely nuclear free.

He said: "Statistically, it is accurate. We would be able to supply all of Scotland's energy needs without nuclear. The question is 'do we want to?'. It seems a bit risky to do without nuclear. Would we be just surviving? Is it possible, and advisable, to have a cushion that gives us a bit more confidence?"

The Scottish Government has targeted producing 31 per cent of Scotland's electricity from renewables by 2011 and 50 per cent by 2020. A spokesman insisted it was on course to meet these targets because the renewables sector, although still small, was growing rapidly – by 46 per cent in the past year.

Mr Hutton attacked the Scottish Government's position when he announced his nuclear plans in the Commons yesterday.

He said he accepted Scottish ministers were entitled to take their own stand on this issue,

but he added: "I think that it is a mistake that Scottish ministers are making, and I think it is more to do with a political stunt than taking responsible long-term decisions in the best interests of either Scottish electricity consumers, or the wider UK perspective.

"I regret that, and I believe that Scottish ministers will come to regret that decision too."

Mr Hutton told MPs that, with a third of the UK's generating capacity coming offline within the next 20 years, and with an increasing reliance on imported energy, it was clear that investment was needed in a range of new infrastructure.

He will now invite companies to be involved in nuclear building programmes and said he expected the first station to be completed well before 2020.

He conceded no nuclear plant had been built anywhere in the world without public money but insisted there would be no subsidies from the UK government.

Mr Hutton said: "The government believes it is in the public interest that new nuclear power stations should have a role to play in this country's future energy mix, alongside other low-carbon sources; that it would be in the public interest to allow energy companies the option of investing in new nuclear power stations, and that the government should take active steps to open up the way to the construction of new nuclear power stations.

"It will be for energy companies to fund, develop and build new nuclear power stations in the UK, including meeting the full costs of decommissioning and their full share of waste management costs."

It emerged later that energy companies believe an extra four nuclear stations will be needed and these will be sited alongside existing plants.

The government's announcement was warmly welcomed by pro-nuclear and business groups as well as unions representing nuclear workers, but was attacked by environmentalists, some opposition politicians and a few Labour supporters.

Ken Livingstone, the London mayor, described it as the "mistake of a generation", while Greenpeace said the radioactive waste problem was still the "roadblock" to new nuclear power.

Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, said: "If new stations are built, it will add to stockpiles of unmanageable waste and create new targets for terrorists."

But the decision was welcomed by unions representing workers in the nuclear industry and by the Tories, who were disappointed Scotland was going to miss out. David Mundell, the shadow Scottish secretary, said: "It is a wasted economic opportunity for Scotland and there is every chance it will eventually lead us to import electricity."

Lewis Macdonald, MSP, Labour's energy spokesman, said the SNP had cast "a huge shadow" over Scotland's future energy needs. "Their refusal to consider new nuclear energy as part of Scotland's energy mix is short-sighted and leaves Scotland without a coherent energy strategy," he said.

Nation must take a lead on renewable sources of energy if it is to remain free of N-power

ALEX Salmond's claims that Scotland is effectively nuclear free could be technically possible and viable – but only if it is met with action. The Scottish Government must, if it is to continue down the renewables path, deal more consistently with local planning applications.

In particular, ministers must make sure the controversial line from Beauly to Denny goes through.

If Scotland did meet 40-50 per cent of its energy from renewable energy sources, then it will be self-sufficient until 2020. Beyond that, however, energy conservation measures will have to be more forcefully employed.

If, however, the Scottish Government decides to go intensively down the renewables path, then

some fossil fuels will be needed as back-up.

But if Scotland invests properly in this technology, then it could become an innovator, as Denmark was with wind power.

What is clear, is that the move towards renewables is no more risky than going down the nuclear path. As far back as 2000, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution identified a range of scenarios showing that the UK's energy needs to 2050 could be met in a range of ways while reducing emissions substantially.

It could be done with energy conservation and large-scale deployment of a range of renewable technologies – principally biomass, onshore and offshore wind and some newer technologies, such as wave energy, towards the end of the period. If the landscape implications of all these renewables was too much to bear, then 46 new nuclear power plants would do the trick (rather more than was announced yesterday).

Energy needs could also be met through aggressively pursuing energy conservation, combined heat and power and a more limited range of renewables to achieve the same ends.

All are technically possible and all would cost more or less the same, according to the Royal Commission.

The Forum for Renewable Energy Development and later Edinburgh University showed that at least 40 per cent of Scotland's electricity needs come from renewables and that, with a mix of technologies, the lights would stay on.

The problem for Scotland is not about whether the future gap can be filled, but rather about how – and the consequences. Do we choose renewables and alter our landscape and land-use patterns or do we choose nuclear, possibly at the expense of telling the world we are leaders in carbon reduction but using a technology we would be reluctant to see used in certain parts of the world?

Do we consolidate our fossil-fuel dependence by opting for coal and carbon capture or do we at last bite the bullet and improve the energy performance of our workplaces and homes? There is no right or wrong answer – only challenges of delivery.

• Fred Dinning retired as director of energy and environment at ScottishPower in December 2005 following a career spanning all aspects of energy generation, supply and use

UNDERGROUND STORAGE PLAN

NUCLEAR waste is likely to be stored deep underground in sites volunteered by local communities, ministers revealed yesterday.

Hilary Benn, the Environment Secretary at Westminster, said: "The government view is that the consultation responses indicate support for managing higher activity radioactive waste in the long term through geological disposal."

The UK government will invite local communities to volunteer to host the underground sites, with a benefits package offered in return.

The document, published yesterday following consultations last year, added: "A call for communities to express an interest will come later, once the responses to the consultation have been assessed and government has published the white paper in 2008."

The white paper is due to be published in the spring.

Previous proposals for "nuclear waste dumps" have sparked huge local protests – something that ministers are seeking to avoid by asking communities to volunteer to host sites.

Ministers are also understood to be considering the option of eventually creating an undersea storage system, possibly off the Cumbrian coast.

However, this option was not confirmed in yesterday's document.

Mr Benn added: "The government continues to see geological disposal as the way forward for the long-term management of higher-activity radioactive waste."

Such materials would come not only from the proposed new generation of nuclear power stations, but also from medical, military and academic sources.

John Hutton, the Business Secretary, told MPs in the Commons that energy companies would bear the full cost of eventually decommissioning new stations at the end of their life and meet "each operator's full share of waste management costs".

However, a spokesman for Greenpeace said last night:

"The government's nuclear policy looks like a dog's breakfast.

"Ministers are proposing to store highly radioactive waste in the ground, but the only area so far mooted is Cumbria, which the government's own advisers have already ruled out on safety grounds.

"You have to wonder what on Earth is going on in Whitehall."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 January 2008 9:00 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear energy
 
1

,

11/01/2008 00:34:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Rich Grey,

Manchester, Connecticut USA 11/01/2008 00:40:46
Remember that oil and gas will only last another 10 to 20 years as an economical source of energy before its scarcity drives up the price out of sight and there are only a limited amount of windmill and water power sites available. Don't squander to stay ahead in your energy independence of Scotland and be held 'over a barrel'(yes its a bad pun) like the US has to face with our need to import more than 60% of our oil
3

Royster,

11/01/2008 00:43:13
Probably best to stick with nuclear for the time being until renewables can come up to scratch. Seems like a good idea to have a mix of energy resources. So what if Scotland can just scrape enough energy to survive? We have to do what is in the best interest of the UK not just Scotland. I see England has gained 4 new nuclear power stations.
4

SlyFifer,

California 11/01/2008 00:43:52
Few countries in the world can claim to self sufficient in certain types of energy. For a country the sixe of Scotland with it's tiny population not a difficult feat. Changes in world climate may put pressure on this statistic in years to come. Head in the sand attitude towards modern nuclear power may come back to bite Salmond's nether regions. It is however totally up to Scotland how it powers it'self now, and in the future. I would pay not one blind bit of notice what happens the other side of the border any more than I would worry what the energy policy of Brazil was.
5

BMeister,

11/01/2008 00:44:58
2 Yuro

End of problem - until presumably one of the rockets goes pop and drops 20 tons of nuclear waste back down?
6

,

11/01/2008 00:58:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Yuro Raitt,

11/01/2008 01:23:42
Real News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7182376.stm
8

Yuro Raitt,

11/01/2008 01:25:31
#s 6,8,

Respect, brothers!
9

The Strategist,

11/01/2008 01:41:22
Unless there is considerably more private sector investment in renewable technologies then it is very difficult to see how a renewables only possible solution is achievable.. The Scottish financial institutions have to got to step up to the bar and start acting responsibly.
10

Jock 107,

11/01/2008 01:56:10
The MWPs have taken more investment from us! If we got one built here, that would be the same as 10 Trump courses, but they won't let us, based on these proposals!

More Power for Scotland!
11

mac1888,

11/01/2008 02:04:49
#7 scotlands population is actually rising,agree on everything else u say though :0
12

lush,

11/01/2008 02:20:54
Hahahahahahaha......is Alex Salmond having a laugh? Nuclear is the only way to meet the future power and environmental requirements. End of.
13

Royster,

11/01/2008 02:22:45
#18. Thanks to SNP bluster, high-tech nuclear power jobs have gone soley to England. The SNP obviously favours menial jobs such as waitressing at Trump-powered golf courses.
14

Jock 107,

11/01/2008 02:42:40
#21 #18
Aah... didn't realise Alex vetoed this investment. He must have good reasons. If that's right then

More Power frae England!

Och, this freedom thing is awfly complex
15

tomi,

11/01/2008 02:44:40
Scots are fools if they reject the great opportunity that this second generation of nuclear power could provide.

Yes! There are problems about safe containment and nuclear waste management; BUT!! What are the potentials for the nation who can solve these problems??

There are answers to these questions.

In fact, the major problem of nuclear waste is that it does contain large ammounts of inherent energy; harness the energy of the waste, and that is a giant step.

Look how much our knowledge has expanded in other fields in the last 20 years. Don't you think that we can do the same in the field of Nuclear Power Generation?

Scotland has provided many great scientists throught the years, and we have the people who can advance scientific knowledge in all fields.
Do not reject nuclear power because of fear and prejudice!
These alternative technologies are all very well, and I have no desire not to see them explored and developed. They could well be very good, and if not actually used, there is always practical spin-offs in all good scientific research.

Do not be prejudiced against nuclear power!!

Let's do the research, and let's develope new, safe and plentyfull nuclear power technology.

There is so much potential within Scotland, and within the atom!!

Let it not be wasted!!

16

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 11/01/2008 03:24:10
What a wonderful display! Alex Salmond, the man who magicked-up "six times" Scotland's current energy requirements while simultaneously running down her only nuclear generating plants! Merciful heavens, can a balanced budget and a full head of hair for all Scotsmen over sixty be far behind?

Yep, Scotland can indeed be self-sufficient in energy without nuclear power. All you need are a few hundred thousand windmills, a few hundred thousand more of those wave rockers, a million or so sets of bagpipes hooked up to the grid and the energy consumption pattern of the shabby end of Basra.

When Salmond and the greeny brigade convince everbody that it's only socially acceptable to boil a kettle on your street number's designated day of the month then Scotland's energy needs will be easily met.
17

W Smith,

Middle East 11/01/2008 04:07:59
1) To save the planet will Salmond give up his Lexus to buy the new Tata Nano? Made in India, it costs around £1,200 - about the same as the DVD player in a new Lexus!

This car gets 50 mpg - every MSP should be forced to drive one and practice what they preach.

2) The cost arguement againsst nuclear power doesn't wash as the SNP have never complained about Mr Brown spendig £167.5 billion a year on quangos.

The SNP have complained about the £7 billion spent on the Iraq War - thats 4% of what was spent on quangos.

So its not just Scottish kids that lack numeracy - our First Minister doesn't know how to use a calculator.

Talk about being penny wise and pound foolish.

3) Salmond is against western countries having nuclear energy and nuclear weapons - but he's quite happy to see Iran and Pakistan developing theirs.

This is typical anti-NATO doctrine coming from the fifth column SNP.

Weaken your home nation but hope your home nations enemies get stronger.

Salmond the commie had the same routine as a member of the 79 Group.

No problem with the Soviet Union and North Korea having nuclear power plants and nuclear missiles eh Salmond?

4) The Salmond-istas think they have managed to outsmart the German, Japanese, and American engineers with this 'discovery' that a few windmills can replace nuclear power stations and supply all our industries needs.

If only Japan, USA, and Germany had people as clever as our Salmond they wouldn't have to build all these nuclear power stations.

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind" - Alex Dylan Salmond.

18

Scozzy,

11/01/2008 04:44:39
This is welcome news and puts Scotland in the right direction towards a sustainable future based on renewable energy.

As well as the massive environmental and safety risks associated with nuclear power it is a little known fact that the Uranium Information Centre in Melbourne reports that there is only enough uranium to last for power genaration for 70 years at present usage rates. Obviously more deposits may be discovered in the future but this will more than likely be offset by the increase in nuclear reactors around the globe.
19

master mariner,

at sea 11/01/2008 05:17:10
fair enough if we dont want them we dont have them. Not sure we can tree hug our way out of this but there again I am not an expert, Just dont complain if we have to import skilled , experienced engineers to build ones in scotland at a later date.
20

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

11/01/2008 05:17:11
I seem to remember it being touted that Scotland could deal with the worlds nuclear waste after 17 of the proposed dumping sites were situated in Scotland.

Accept nucleare stations in Scotland, accept the worlds waste because that's what Westminster wants.
21

Alan Reid,

Wellington 11/01/2008 05:46:46
You cannot trust nuclear have a look at the following link, Also it's costing the UK taxpayer 70 Billion to decomission the plants coming up for the end of their service life. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2666418.ece

AM: "but with offshore wind, for example, currently costing twice as much as nuclear (including decommissioning) there's a very long way to go" Complete rubbish as usual.
W Smith: same anti SNP sh@te, change the record. It's not Scotland remit to provide England with cheap clean power.

22

Royster,

11/01/2008 06:16:26
#28. Where there's muck, there's brass.
23

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 11/01/2008 06:19:03
Hey Dudes..not including the do nothing SNP squawkers.

Your pip squeak province of the UK, Scotland , has its own natural renewable energy resources:

Wind and Waves.and they are constant and will last forever, or close.

Science and technology is constantly going forward in efficiency, and in lowering cost to manufacture.

25 or 50 years or 100 from 2008 will see the dawn of incredibly efficient wind turbines producing energy at far lower cost than we pay for a barrel of oil to day.

So come out of your dark damp gray dingy houses. Seize the opportunities and build your energy horizons for tomorrow .

BUT FIRST, Ye'all STOP SQUAWKING.

GC
24

Royster,

11/01/2008 06:24:41
I think the nuclear waste business is the way to go; it's high margin. I mean what competition do you have? It's not as if you can wash it down Kenny Richey's mum's launderette in Embra.
25

James,

11/01/2008 06:41:40
What abour Fr. David Cairns who laid into the SNP but wibbled and wobbled when asked to explain the position of the (Ahem) 'Scottish' Labour Party whish is anti-nuclear. Labour - anti-nuke until they are in power.

Dont worry London it wont be the Thames, It'll be Sellafield, Hinckley Point, Sizewell and Dungeness for the 4 new reactors - not on stream to the 2020s - by which time Scotland will have projects for another 4 new Hydro Plants, and be Independent.

Nuke plant five nomination is for Hull eh Royster the Housemartin?
26

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 11/01/2008 07:05:57
I don't like nuclear but in the medium term, there is no other solution. Denmark is one of the world leaders in renewables but, despite it's long lead in 'green' energy production, only 18.5% of its energy generation comes from them. Like Scotland, Denmark has banned the construction of nuclear power stations, however, the Danes cannot currently meet peak demands with home generation, so they buy it in from France and Germany - two of Europe's leading nuclear generators! Seems a tad hypocritical if you ask me. Will Scotland have to do the same from England and at what price? Come on Alex, show us the figures!!
27

glassbenmhor,

11/01/2008 07:50:35
#25 W(h)Smith,hey whats it like back there in HISTORY
28

conservative,

Fife 11/01/2008 08:07:36
What an idiot Salmond is for the sake of a political point. Coal will run out. Even 'clean' coal (an unproven technology) isn't really clean - it only puts the huge amount of pollutants into storage. Renewables such as wind are temperamental and hugely expensive. Nuclear energy is the major near-term solution. With luck we'll see the back of this selfish oaf and his gang of numpties before the lights go out.
29

missing home,

la verne 11/01/2008 08:14:30
2. Yuro, trouble is, we're PART of the universe! Is it not enough we've mucked up this planet, you want to take it further?
30

missing home,

la verne 11/01/2008 08:17:03
For once I actually agree with GC, God help me! The winds the west coast got the other day could have fueled the planet!
31

Unimpressed one,

11/01/2008 08:20:21
Just imagine all the Scottish communities that would have fought tooth and nail to act as repositories for future waste. Salmond has put an end to that wee nest egg!. We Scots will be seen as a nation of luddites, governed by socialist opportunists, whose policices are not driven by national needs, but are designed to be anti-unionist just for the sheer hell of it.
32

Unimpressed one,

11/01/2008 08:22:51
#41, Danielrober, agree with you there. However I suspect that once trained, the new generation of engineers and scientists will shift south of the border to where the action is as opposed to staying here in this luddite backwater.
33

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/01/2008 08:32:43
Thank goodness for commonsense! I've been involved in campaigining against nuclear power for 30 years. The issue of the disposal of the waste is not one that will go away for over a few thousand years, no matter what the apologists for NP tell you (and there are plenty on here today!). As for the rubbish being spouted about luddites etc., there are wonderful opportunities in the development of renewables and clean-carbon technologies for Scotland to be at the forefront of these technologies. Wake up and smell the coffee....
34

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/01/2008 08:38:59
Let's also remember that the SNP's position is also the same as the last Labour-Lib Dem. administration.
35

Iain's,

11/01/2008 08:40:02
Nuclear is supported by the UK government. The spin should not detract from the truth. How is nuclear good for us but evil for Iran. If Nuclear is best for us, it is best for everyone.

Scotland has water. Too much water. Hydro electric is not new.
Way back, Rudyard Kipling had his house lit by his own mini hydro scheme. Renewable, totally hidden and clean.

I will only support nuclear if a plant is built in Greater London.

36

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 08:40:08
Well tata from all the nuclear engineers up here, they are all off down south where there will be jobs and opportunities. I get the impression that we could attach some sort of devise in front of the Salmond to collect all the hot air and anti UK sentiment, that should keep a couple of toons in kilowatts for a few months at a time!
37

Harbinger,

land of my Turbines 11/01/2008 08:45:24
#42 The whole point about wind power is that in the high winds recently they would have to have been shut down, or the blades would take off. 55mph wind is the top limit and in the Summer there will be precious little if the computer models are right, with hotter temperatures. Hot days equal very little wind and no power below 12 mph. That's why energy companies only factor wind power into the grid at around 10% because it is so unreliable. And they need conventional back up to cover the other 90%, so more wind means more conventional power stations, coal or otherwise. Oh, don't forget the billion quid subsidy going into wind power, which is a large part of current energy price rises.
38

Dissector,

Stirling 11/01/2008 08:51:16
As ever, Slippery Fish has sought to grab the populist headline omitting the key damaging factor that over 50% of all Scottish electricity is generated by oil and gas which will contiuously go up in price. He and his sprats will have retired from office when the lights go out leaving the problem to others with a more balanced outlook on necessity.A plague on the SNP shambles.
39

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 08:53:22
Go to the seaside - sit and observe through a tide cycle and you will see the unlimited source of energy just waiting to be tapped.

The problem is how to tap the energy but I'm sure human ingenuity will come up with the answer if enough money and effort is applied to the problem.
40

New Town Resident,

11/01/2008 08:54:05
42. When the wind blows hard wind farms have to be shut down for safety reasons.

46. You seem to have bought the typical Salmond highly misleading claims pandering to the understandable ignorance most people have oveer a highly complex electricity system.

Its not a question of who uses what kind of power, but who pays.

We have a GB electricity system. Renewables recieve a subsidy of £90/Mwh for power only worth £50/MwH - i.e. they get £140/MWh. This subsidy is guaranteed by the UK government and is 90% paid by the England and Wales consumers in their final electricity bills. (They are 90% of GB consumers). Similarly they pay 90% of the costs of new Scottish power lines.

So if Scotland is "self-suffcient" and can do its own thing, then logically Scottish consumers should pay for 100% of the renewables subsidy and 100% of the cost of new power lines. Right?

Can the SNP supporters please address this question rather than just sloganise. You either have a GB system and therefore are part of the GB energy policy, or logically you pay your own costs on a "self-sufficient" basis. Under these circumsatnces the price of power in Scotland would more than double because it would lose the 90% renewables and power line payments from south of the border.

I find SNP cherry picking intellectually exasperating. Of course nuclear would need a subsidy too (not as much as renewables), so actually rejecting nuclear in Scotland is refusing a subsidy gift horse for Scotland. OK if you are against in principle, but at least understand power costs and payments.
41

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 09:10:34
NUCLEAR waste is likely to be stored deep underground in sites volunteered by local communities, ministers revealed yesterday.

Hilary Benn, the Environment Secretary at Westminster, said: "The government view is that the consultation responses indicate support for managing higher activity radioactive waste in the long term through geological disposal."

I have serious,serious reservations about any nuclear waste being stored in sub surface cavities wether it be caves or old mines.

Unless we want to pollute the water table and kill us all I would urge all people in scotland to say NO to this type of practice.

I also have serious reservations that the government at westminster are drawing up plans to use scotland for the ultimate sacrifice, we become Europes dumping ground for all their nuclear waste.
42

JG,

Fife 11/01/2008 09:13:30
This is all very well but should the renewable power options not be in place BEFORE we rule out nuclear power? As far as I know we don't have sufficient wave technology or wind farms to keep us all going. Salmond will change his tune when his Jimmy Shand records grind to a halt!
43

New Town Resident,

11/01/2008 09:17:47
-55. Why do you assume victimhood up front? Most of the suitable underground sites are in England so actually its the other way around. Also they are several thousand feet below the water table.
44

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:21:32
I don't have a problem with nuclear power and Mr Salmonds attitude is more to do with creating conflit in Westminster than any sensible policy of energy production for the future.
The investment and opportunities any developments may bring could be invaluable to rural Scotland (far better than a stupid golf course anyway...) as they are in parts of England - Sellafield in Cumbria is a good example.

#55 I wouldnt worry about the waste being dumped in Scotland - it is not worth the hassle to Westminster, I would guess that waste will be stored in England - almost certainly at Sellafield (though this is still probably close enough to Scotland to upset some of you...)
45

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 11/01/2008 09:29:56
More backward, inward looking nonsense from the tartan tories.
46

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:30:36
52.

The load factor for coal and nuclear is 65-85%; for wind it is 25-40%. For wind penetration up to around 20%, a reasonable level, the capacity credit of wind energy is about the same as the installed capacity multiplied by the load factor. In other words if there is 100 MW of wind energy installed in the country, then this can be relied upon to replace (or avoid the need to build) 30 MW of thermal or nuclear generation capacity.

Also, the wind blows more in the winter when more power is needed.
47

Mikey,

11/01/2008 09:31:46
I see that now the Westminster crew has spoken, their fifth column has felt the urge to do down Scotland once again. Really folks, if this wee country is such a bind, why don't you just take your cranial cavities down to Windscale where, I have no doubt, you'll be extremely happy.



48

flogelsleftpeg,

11/01/2008 09:32:10
What do the folks here complaining about nuclear actually think this waste is going to do to them?
49

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 09:32:24
sorry, 60 was for 51.
50

flogelsleftpeg,

11/01/2008 09:33:10
That should be nuclear waste.
51

Mikey,

11/01/2008 09:34:03
Jam Tarts, are you referring to the Prime Minister who admired Thatcher and then invited her to Downing Street? One Gordon Brown, leader of the NuLab party?

If you're not, you're not really very bright, are you?
52

C U Jimmy,

Ayrshire 11/01/2008 09:40:18
If as a recent report says, that we export 30% of the energy we produce, why do the power suppliers increase our prices and blame it on the rise in oil prices?
53

nick prince,

warrington 11/01/2008 10:03:25
Tomi at 23 good post, you almost persuaded me but remember the nuclear power industry was only really around to provide a source of weapons grade plutonium,

Remember also how the nuclear industry via its fees and grants system was responsible for research into renewables, funnily enough they managed to close down the salter's ducks tidal energy capture scheme. They felt they needed no rivals to good ole nuclear power.

This industry will always be linked to military secrecy and will always need state subsidy. What happens when a state collapses?

The neo nuclear lobby are also always going about how incredibly safe nuclear power is, so is a rattle snake, unless, of course, it bites you. Is a wind turbine when it goes wonky ever going to threaten you the same way? Or a salter's duck?

Also remember that nuclear power is capital and not labour intensive and that it is very centralised and can be turned of and withheld more easily than diverse resources.

To rely on Nuclear Power you need to also be able to rely on state responsibilty
54

Geoff,

South Africa 11/01/2008 10:05:38
Again-an interesting debate although the Unionist-Nationalist divide colours all!

Just a note for those enthusing about the merits of Hydro. As with all systems, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Damming rivers or otherwise interfering with natural flows, has an environmental cost to river systems,fish stocks and the crucial estuarine "nurseries". This has been recognised in the USA for example, to the extent that some dams have actually been removed ! If you do the accounting properly, it can be shown that dams-especially large ones,are not only NOT cost effective but generate environmental probs that far outweigh any supposed benefits. An extreme example here would be the Aral Sea catastrophe in the former USSR. Faced with the near certainty that unless we deal with co2 emissions almost immediately we face disaster, then Nuclear Power will buy us some critical time, waste problems notwith standing. The REAL answers lie in addressing runaway population growths worldwide and implementing radical energy saving measures. Scotland with its high energy potential and low stable population would seem to be ideally placed in this scenario BUT in todays world, no man(or nation) is an Island. The Global Village with all its ills is inescapable.
55

Arfur,

11/01/2008 10:12:44
Not only do we have enough non nucular power to satisfy Scotland but when Independance comes Engurland will need to by oil from Scotland.

We could also have more wind farms out in the north sea and sell the energy generated to England.
56

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 11/01/2008 10:17:46
Excellent news for Scotland. We need to invest seriously now in wave/tidal power and it can be a very important export for the future.

Sad news for England and Wales. The price will be increased pollution, increased cancer, a significant security risk and the waste of billions of pounds. I didn't expect GB to be swayed by environmental concerns but I thought he was capable of doing his sums...

Unfortunately the sad bit for us is that we are also at risk from the nuclear nonsense. They should be building any new nuclear power stations in the South East of England, and no doubt MPs will vote for the bribe and store the nuclear waste under Westminster, but the pollution and the health risks will still not be confined.
57

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 10:18:32
"He predicted the figures for the past 12 months – which will not be published until the end of this year – would show the amount of electricity generated in Scotland from non- nuclear sources would cover the country's entire needs."

So we are almost there without nuclear, or is this lies from Alex Salmond?

The Labour party in Scotland are split on the issue. The Labour party are split! This is desperate Unionist posturing, panic stricken paranoid poltics, to late, to late your fascist Union has gone. ALBA GU BRATH. GOD BLESS AND KEEP ALEC SALMOND.

There is a whole new future for Scotland in becoming a world leader in renewables when we get the Westminster monkey of our backs.

We do not need the UK grid. The UK grid needs Scotland. We can easily set up a North Sea grid, sharing with other small independent sustainable countries.

This country has no need for dirty nuclear poison plants. There are farms in this country that cannot sell their produce since Chernobyl.There are lukemia and cancer clusters in the same areas, figures that are being suppressed and denied by government.

10s of thousands have died as a result of nuclear accidents and pollution. The Irish sea and Pentland Firth are full of nuclear particles. The cost to us for cleaning Dounreay multiplies every time it is published. Sandside beach in Caithness will be out of bounds for 1,000 years because of Dounreay.

The SNP are completely correct in their anti-nuclear stance, it is a dirty corrupt industry, which has zero credibility, and has Westminster in it's pocket, because of vested interests. The politicians know if they support nuclear that there is a very lucrative career waiting for them when they get voted out of office.
58

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 10:26:39
AND THEN THERE IS THIS:

Professor Stephen Salter, of Edinburgh University, claims tidal energy potential in the far north may have been significantly underestimated and has urged the new Scottish government and industry leaders to invest more resources in research.

The eminent scientist believes the Firth's most powerful currents, found in depths previously considered out of reach, could be converted to between 10 and 20 gigawatts of electricity – rendering endless supplies for the country's homes and businesses. Prof Salter, who produced an energy review for the SNP , warned that investment would be needed to explore and understand the Firth's varying currents and waves.

"If Scotland truly wants reliable marine current energy with generators which are strong enough... we must build a model test tank with complete control of both waves and currents," he says. "The size of the resource in the Pentland Firth may be larger than that predicted from studies which assumed only shallow-water turbines and ignored bottom friction losses. With turbines designed for deployment in 70 metres' depth, the resource could exceed present UK nuclear capacity."

Prof Salter has spent 10 years exploring the potential of tidal energy and has developed a cylindrical turbine which he believes could reach down to depths of 50m. His turbines could operate in conjunction with seabed-based turbines which could reach 20m upwards from the bottom.

Prof Salter explained that the positioning of the underwater turbines in the firth would be flexible but would be built progressively from the east. "It would be best if the lines of turbines could be placed towards the easterly end of the channel so as to avoid the largest Atlantic waves. A line from Duncansby Head to Muckle Skerry looks a good place to start," he states.

If sufficient investment materialises the turbines could be installed in eight to 10 years' time. A seabed cable running underwater along the east coast to Peterhead
59

Gothic Rose,

11/01/2008 10:27:15
62# It has the unfortunate habit of turning you into a radio active isotope.This may, or may not be, of any consequence to your protouns ect.However, that which makes up your organic matter,finds it all quite,quite, incompatible.
60

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 10:34:19
We have the talent, the brain power, the R&D, to bring forward this renewable technology. Scottish education, inventivness, and engineering wil come to the fore as it was during the industrial revolution, why do I say this? Because:

Graduates from Scottish universities outperform their counterparts in all other parts of the UK, according to new figures.

Officials statistics show that 16% of those graduating north of the border do so with a first class honours degree compared with 13% in Northern Ireland, 12% in England and 11% in Wales.

Graduates from Scottish universities also get the joint highest proportion of upper second class degrees with 52% achieving the benchmark - the same as in Northern Ireland. In England, 47% get 2:1s while in Wales the figure is 45%.

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The stringent marking of degrees, which involves two separate checks by university staff and a third assessment by an independent external examiner, means the marks attained in each part of the UK can be compared.

Last night, Universities Scotland, which represents university principals, said the high achievement level of Scottish graduates was proof of the quality of education on offer.

"These figures continue to be very encouraging. Scotland consistently produces graduates with better average qualifications than the UK as a whole," said a spokesman.

From The Herald.
61

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:34:58
How about using the hot air generated by Alex Salmond and the SNP?
62

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:36:51
#33 james why dod you find it necessary to refer to David Cairns as Fr.?

Just showing your own prejudices perhaps?
63

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 10:37:25
Hen Broon 5 (71): "10s of thousands have died as a result of nuclear accidents and pollution."

In other words, far fewer than have died from tobacco consumption and road accidents in the intervening years: your statistic is an argument for the relative safety of nuclear power. It's true that Britain still restricts some produce due to caesium contamination from Chernobyl, but it's not clear how dangerous that produce would actually be, although, given that relatively few areas are affected, the risk isn't worth taking. Some of the findings on Chernobyl are summarized in this BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173310.stm
64

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:42:04
#61 The old crap that if you disagree with the SNP you are somehow "doing down Scotland".

The cult-like following of the Dear Leader is barindead to say the least - any debate on energy must examine all options - and include both a short-term and long-term prognosis.
65

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

11/01/2008 10:42:45
#77 Not to mention those who have died mining for coal and drilling for oil and gas.
66

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:00:07
Hen Broon 5 (74): "The stringent marking of degrees, which involves two separate checks by university staff and a third assessment by an independent external examiner, means the marks attained in each part of the UK can be compared."

As an academic and an external examiner, I can assure you that this is not true: the standard required to achieve a 1st class degree, or a 2.1 varies greatly between universities. The external examiner prevents some types of corruption arising, and does provide some limit on grade inflation, but the result only ensures rough comparability between universities accepting students of roughly equal ability. The reason is a simple one: the proportion of 1st and 2.1 class degrees awarded by universities does not vary as much as the average ability of their students, and it is this property that diminishes the correlation between "A"-level performance and final degree class. Thus a good, but not brilliant, mathematics undergraduate might get a 1st at one of the University of London colleges, say, but a 2nd at Cambridge.

Incidentally, I suspect that this is part of the reason for the statistical difference between Scottish universities and English ones. In Scotland, there is still a strong tendency to choose the local university, whilst in England students choose the best university they can attain given ability. The result is that any good English university contains students who were only just good enough to gain entry, but are then below average relative to their peers: their final degree class is then lower than if they had chosen a university at which their ability would be average (or above average).
67

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:06:31
#69
By the time Scotland gets Independance from "Engurland" there will be sod all left so you cannot rely on that.

You also seem to be forgetting that England itself has its own very large coast line and so will be perfectly able to produce their own power from it. But if they invest in Nuclear (and Scotland says no) you may find that in the future that Scotland will be the imported from the South as regardless as what Mr Salmond says over 50% of Scotlands current needs are from oil/gas/coal and these are rapidly running out.
68

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:07:13
sorry that should say "be importing"
69

Captain Flint,

Sunny Scotland 11/01/2008 11:09:40
Hip Hip Hooray!

10 new nuclear reactors = 4% cut in UK greenhouse gas emissions in 15 years time!

We're all saved! And in the nick of time!

But seriously - the amount that will be spent on these white elephants could easily have resulted in far greater carbon savings being made far sooner.

And is there anyone out there who believes Gordon Brown's insistence that the taxpayer won't end up bailing the nuclear industry out again?

Finally - are there any intrepid Scotsman readers prepared to put their money where their mouths are and invest their cash in new nuclear reactors? Form and orderly queue - if you're stupid enough.
70

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:09:41
Duncan (79): "#77 Not to mention those who have died mining for coal and drilling for oil and gas."

Agreed. We could also add the many illnesses and deaths due to coal/oil pollution. My family consists mostly of asthmatic Londoners and, although I was born in the mid-1960s, family stories of the effects of smog before the Clear Air Acts are legion.
71

Rampant,

London 11/01/2008 11:10:03
Its all very well the SNP saying that Scotland is going to be Nuclear Free but what Im getting fed up of is the lack of real planning for a substitute. Great we are going to have wave and wind power. Where, how much and when? What are you going to do to get the investment??

Scotland has a real opportunity to be a World leader in renewables. Get Global talent and business to come to Scotland....get investment from the EU etc and start giving Scotland a new industry and will allow the country to prosper!
At the moment it seems we are just "playing" at it...and if that is the case we better build a new Nuclear Power station quickly

As for being self-sufficent now ....I heard last night that Scotland bought power from England for the 1st time in years last year....so Alex may be working off older figures.



72

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 11:13:26
Fairfax. You and I have been here before. Because tobacco and cars and living kills people, there is no need for Scotland to continue to promote this nuclear poison which leaves a horrible legacy for our children.Goverment figures are hidden, distorted, spun, lied about and have the credibility of a woodworm in a brick.
The nuclear industry in the UK is the worst example of duplicity and down right dishonesty you can find in any industry. There record on safety and pollution control literaly stinks. Record keeping a joke. Ask the people of Sandside and Reay in Caithness. Speak to the farmers in Dumfriess and Galloway.
Cars are getting safer.
Government is promoting tobacco free living.
Scottish government is promoting nuclear free living.
We have an alternative. The technology exists now. We have the talent. We have the education. We have the engineering infrastructure. Best of all we are soon to have controll of it all.
Then we can work to a Scottish agenda, not an Inner M25 agenda, we can decide what is in the interest of SCOTLAND THE NATION.
That is the one piece of the puzzle that has been missing for these past 300 years.
In Rosyth we see the rsult of our past slavish subserviance to a fascist union which treated us with contempt. Nuclear submarine hulks quietly glowing away because no one has a clue what to do with them. Ok just dump them on the Jocks.
Oh by the way we will just be move all the refitting to Devonport, cannot have that taking place in a nuclear dustbin. Sorry Jocks, votes in the South have prority.
Dounreay is another classic example.
As are the nuclear sub bases, with their MAD technology, sitting a few miles from out largest city. Benefits of Union me a***.
ALBA GU BRATH.
73

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:27:03
Hen Broon 5 (86): "Goverment figures are hidden, distorted, spun, lied about and have the credibility of a woodworm in a brick."

My own criticism was applied to your own statistic of tens of thousands of death due to nuclear power, presumably a European-wide estimate over recent decades (though you didn't give further details). To compare in detail, the number of car fatalities in Britain is typically 3000 per year, and is not appreiciably decreasing due to car safety; see, e.g.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208

Thus there have been some 90,000 car fatalities in Britain over the last 30 years. The accident rate is generally higher in the rest of Europe, so there have been of the order of 1 million European car fatalities in Europe over the past 30 years: much higher than your estimate of tens of thousands of nuclear deaths.

"Oh by the way we will just be move all the refitting to Devonport, cannot have that taking place in a nuclear dustbin. Sorry Jocks, votes in the South have prority."

Scotland has made no secret that of its wish for nuclear weapons to be removed from Scotland. The corollary of that wish being granted is that all refitting work will ultimately be moved to England. Scotland is losing MOD work due to votes in Scotland, not England.
74

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:27:03
#86
"slavish subserviance to a fascist union "
What planet are you living on?!?! can I suggest you get out more?
75

Nikostratos,

11/01/2008 11:27:28
No matter what the tree huggers and barmy (back to living in caves nationalists) the nuclear argument will win the argument.If not know later even if years later wind and rain will never be enough to supply the energy needs of this nation.

as for nuclear weapons if only the Muslim and Asiatic states were of the same peacnik frame of mind as the loonytoons like broomboy. They ain't and they will use there military advantage unhesitatingly to further their aims.

still broomboy can always write a poem about how Scotland was before being swallowed by the 'Caliphate'

76

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 11:30:06
Relevent FACTS in Scottish Context:

a)New Nuclear online circa 2020.
b)Total cost of Ownership Rising for Nuclear, reducing for renewables.
c)Known high yield uranium ores will be used up by 2016 in current estimates. Thereafter CO2 facter of total lifecyle is much increased and significant compared to fossil fuels. By 2050 it will be much much worse.
d) Total decommisioning cost for exisitng plants unknown - currently approx 70 Billion. revised upwards almost each year this decade.
e) Final Waste treatment locations unknown
f) Sellafield interim location. It has been interim since decades already.
g) Scottish Labour commisioned its own reports on 40% renewable power by 2020. Its reports and others concluded that Scotland will meet or surpass 40% of its needs most of the time WITHOUT Nuclear. Labour has ignored its own findings! (Hence the split, I think)
h) Public Record: The 2, 400KV interconnects to England actially need to be UPGRADED to cope with MORE overproduced power in Scotland WITHOUT Nuclear. This is based only on existing already PLANNED and forecast projects.
g) Scotland will need to import power during high load, low renewable generation. Reality - this is a fraction of the time. Scotland will be overproducing the vast majority of the time. In any case THATS HOW A GRID WORKS.

The South has an argument for Nuclear energy - though 10 new plants is absurd.
Until recently and until I read up more on the topic, I thought there was possible or probable justifaction for 1 new Plant in Scotland. Fortunately the facts tell a different story.
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/01/2008 11:40:00
#16 AM2 I'll bet you cannot substantiate those cost comparisons. As far as I know no-one has been able to put a figure on the true cost of de-commissioning nuclear power stations (including the cost of radioactive waste disposal).

Anyway, why not look at technologies other than wind turbines. CHP plant, district heating plant, clean coal technology etc which are all cheaper per MW than wind and nuclear?
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/01/2008 11:40:59
#91 You are confusing Britain with Scotland.
79

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:41:10
AM2 (91): "An April 2007 ICM poll for the BBC found that 51% even of would-be Nationalist voters said they agreed with the proposition that “Britain should continue to have nuclear weapons.”"

Agreed. I do indeed have the nimby effect in mind: those polled want Britain to retain nuclear weapons, but would prefer them to be sited elsewhere. Still, even a minority can be enough to shift policy.
80

Publius,

London 11/01/2008 11:46:45
Alex may be wrong about rejecting nuclear power. Several reasons for this. (1) Common sense suggests that a country should have diverse sources of energy. Oil and gas are now very expensive and getting more so. Coal mining is dirty and dangerous. Renewables only work only when natural conditions are right and they are heavily subsidised anway. Nuclear adds another option. (2) Scotland's need for electricity may rise fast, especially if transport moves from oil to electricity (trains, trams, cars with rechargeable batteries) and manufacturing industry recovers. (3) Not having nuclear power stations does not mean Scotland will escape nuclear fall out - 50 plus nuclear power stations in France, 4 in England, 1 in Finland and others.
81

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 11:48:15
Since one of the arguments for Nuclear in England proposed by UK.Gov is the decline of North Sea oil it clearly shows that they have hugely gained not only from the revenue but otherwise England would already have had a much larger Nuclear Landscape.
82

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:48:53
David MacVicar (90): "d) Total decommisioning cost for exisitng plants unknown - currently approx 70 Billion. revised upwards almost each year this decade."

In other words, the total cost of decommission is less than 3 times the current amount loaned since August to Northern Rock. Perhaps our Scottish PM and Chancellor will equal the costs of decommission after their first year in office!

More seriously, the cost is not particularly large when taken over many years. The rising costs are partly a consequence of changing legislation and partly a consequence of increasing labour costs. The latter will always increase whilst our GDP increases. If you want to be frightened by ever-increasing costs, consider welfare and the public sector . . .
83

Stuart Douglas!,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 11:55:53
I'm no fan of the SNP but well done to Alex Salmond.

Not only has he said no to nuclear but he's got the usual bunch of anti-green fundamentalists frothing at the mouth.

Very funny!
84

Arfur,

11/01/2008 11:58:11
#81 Liz - at the current rate of extraction there is 30 years worth of oil left in the north sea oil fields. not only this they think there are other fields to be found in the north sea which will increase this time period.

I do know that England has a coast line and it is very large, i do not think it is right in the middle of main land Europe, however they do not have as much wind as Scotland does and tidal power has not been fully utilised as yet.

85

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 11:59:24
David MacVicar (96): "it clearly shows that they have hugely gained not only from the revenue but otherwise England would already have had a much larger Nuclear Landscape."

It certainly shows that England has benefited from North Sea Oil, but that benefit lies mostly in the lack of dependence on imported oil. I agree that England would have built more nuclear power stations had North Sea oil been an import. I suspect that we would have remained similar to France in our dependence on nuclear power, so would already have an energy surplus. In other words, oil independence has been a mixed blessing.

The financial benefit is fairly small for England: an order of magnitude of £10 billion per year, greatly offset by the higher welfare and public sector costs of Scotland -- merely 1% of England's GDP. Of course, it was much more important in the dark days of the 1970s, before our economic renaissance. I fear we're going to have yet another debate in which Scots attempt to claim that their wealth is subsidising the parasitic evil of London, Babylon that my home city (thankfully!) is . . .
86

Geoff,

South africa 11/01/2008 11:59:28
Hen Broon various-again, with regard to tidal power,none of this is without environmental cost to the coastline and marine systems(see my post at 68) Without agreeing/disagreeing with your well articulated posts one must play Devils Advocate and pose the question as to why,if tidal power is seen to be such a godsend,has it not been exploited earlier. I would think you will find that construction and maintenance costs in a harsh marine environment loom large in the negatives. Again I believe the prob is on the DEMAND side-we are to caught up in the short link causes and effects arguments-not enough oil for example,instead of looking at the long link prob-TOO MANY PEOPLE-an unsustainable situation no matter what we do-a catastroph waiting to explode.

Tackle this-the rest becomes easy.
87

Border Scot,

11/01/2008 11:59:38
Just a few weeks ago we were being told that Westminster would be forcing Scotland down the nuclear path. Westminster has done no such thing. The Scottish government has made its choice and that is the end of it. Another SNP fib exposed.

Of course, we were also being told that in a few years England would be importing a great deal of energy from Scotland. Now, of course, that will not be the case. England will be pretty much self-sufficient in 20 or 30 years, and may well end up exporting energy to Scotland when we find that we can no longer rely on oil and gas.
88

kimba,

11/01/2008 12:01:16
well, if you believe "wee eck" guess the kids will be doing their homework by candlelight,sooner rather than later.
89

Thunderstruck,

11/01/2008 12:07:37
I am left to wonder what contribution to "self sufficiency" is made by the many trains (each carrying hundreds of tonnes of imported coal) that regularly thunder through Paisley Gilmour Street Staion on their way from Bulk Carriers at Hunterston to a coal-fired power station somewhere in Central Scotland.
90

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:14:58
97 Fairfax,11/01/2008

Figure being banded around the news rooms on tv last night was £100bn to clean up current nuclear sites.

But consider this, the new Forth Crossing at Queensferry was only months ago being costed at £1.5bn at 2006 prices with the cost at completion reckoned to be around £4.2bn.

These nuclear sites wil take decades to clean up and hundreds of years and more of security costs to keep the spent fuel out of the hands of terrorists etc.

So what price nuclear? nuclear at any cost? and what cost to our environment and our children if we have another Windscale or Chernobyl 'once in a thousand year' mishaps?

We don't even know what the sea levels are gonna be in ten years time and guess where we tend to put nuclear power stations?

All this when we are sitting on centuries of coal under the mainland and a thousand years of coal under the north sea oil fields.
91

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:20:04
Forget Scargill's legacy, old king coal can yet be the fuel of the future
http://business.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=2745329
92

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 12:27:02
livilion (105): "Figure being banded around the news rooms on tv last night was £100bn to clean up current nuclear sites."

So it's 4 times our loans to Northern Rock instead of 3. However, since some of those sites will now host other nuclear stations, decommissioning costs might decrease. As I stated in my earlier post, £100 billion over decades is affordable.

"So what price nuclear? nuclear at any cost?"

If you've already decided that the cost of nuclear is finite, then there seems little point in further debate.

" and what cost to our environment and our children if we have another Windscale or Chernobyl 'once in a thousand year' mishaps?"

As I pointed out to Hen Broon 5 in post 87, the usual estimate of the order of magnitude of tens of thousands of fatalities across Europe over the past 50 years is actually quite low compared to other industrial activity. Again, if you believe the costs of nuclear power are essentially infinite, you should simply say so.
93

Alfie Bett,

11/01/2008 12:27:26


#49 DaveK, says,
"Well tata from all the nuclear engineers up here, they are all off down south where there will be jobs and opportunities. "

Alfie,says Welcome to Scotland to all the marine, mining,mechanical and electrical engineers who will be involved in the growth of the burgeoning new industries of clean coal,carbon capture,tidal,wave and wind energy

94

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 12:27:54
Fairfax (107): "If you've already decided that the cost of nuclear is finite"

I meant to say "is infinte". Apologies.
95

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:28:49
102 Border Scot,11/01/2008 11:59:38

So who's idea are the new Trident nuclear submarines to be based in the bullseye on the Clyde?

Who's going to stop them?

How many Labour party MPs and MSPs, former members of CND, are now in favour of nuclear?

btw If 'we' hadn't opted to continue our WMD program what are the odds we'd still be 'needing' the nuclear power option?
Not much.
96

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/01/2008 12:32:47
There has been a lot of comment about the environmental problems of nuclear power - yet little has been said about the environmental problems that renewables have. That combined with serious doubts over the proportion that renewables can contribute to our energy needs makes me sceptical about how much of a place they can have in our energy policy.

That is not to say that they should be ruled out and nuclear rulled in. What needs to happen is a sensible long-term reappraisal of energy policy.
97

Doh,

11/01/2008 12:35:55


I guess we are just lucky that Trump is not proposing to build a nuclear power station in order to brings hundreds of jobs to the North East .....
98

Border Scot,

11/01/2008 12:37:37
#110 - As far as I can make out they are the idea of a Labour government led by a Scotsman who was elected by Scots.

If the Scots do not want nuclear weapons in Rosyth they will vote SNP, gain independence and that will be the end of it.

My more general point was that a few weeks ago we were being told by nationalists that Westminster was about to force nuclear power on an unwilling Scotland. That has not happened. It was a nationalist fib.

99

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 12:41:17
113. Border

please supply the quote from an SNP minister who said a few weeks ago that "Westminster was about to force nuclear power on an unwilling Scotland"
100

Edwards Legend,

11/01/2008 12:41:24
This decision is little to do with any conviction the SNP have on the merits of power supply.
It appears to me the SNP will deliberately take the opposite stance to Westminster on any issue to provoke an argument an deepen divisions.
This is a self serving and selfish attitude which is detrimental to the long term future of Scotland.

I voted for them last year but I am regretting this further with every passing week.
101

Calum Crubag,

11/01/2008 12:41:28
Nuclear power in uneconomical and dangerous. A small country like Scotland does not need it. CO2 emissions arising from the whole process of nuclear production, transport and storage are not that much less anyway. Plus, most of us are against it. Well done Salmond.

What more is there to be said?
102

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:41:53
#107 Fairfax,11/01/2008 12:27:02

Good old nuclear radiation, what a shame it gets such poor press?

We will be exporting the design for these new generation nuclear power stations to North Korea and Iran to be sure they don't make any mistakes designing their own?

Had Windscale exploded as it was expected to when they tried to put out their reactor fire with water we would simply not be here to have this debate.

Why did it happen? Great Britain could not stand being talked down to by the USA and had to have its own H-Bomb.

Yes nuclear costs tend towards infinity.

Hunterston B is currently less reliable than renewable sources in the area.

Why not spend the money on clean coal technology we can also export to the Third World and in ramping up research into improving the returns from renewables and hydrogen technology instead?
103

Calum Crubag,

11/01/2008 12:42:46
115 - Edward. More fool you. If you didn't know about the SNP's anti-nuclear stance, then you must have had your head in the sand.
104

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:45:11
#112 Doh,11/01/2008 12:35:55

Yes Joke McConnell could get his backside tanned again for flying over to the USA to press the flesh with the great man himself like he did in New York 2006.

Or had you forgotten? Doh!
105

George Coutts,

Iceland 11/01/2008 12:49:14
I am at present living in Iceland.
Iceland is NUCLEAR FREE and also banned the U.S. Navy from STOCKING ANY NUCLEAR ARMS ON ITS SOIL.
It also just completed the Karanuga Dam, the largest in Europe with the main cash paid by American Giants ALCO.
They would never think of having RADIOACIVE POWERPLANTS OR ITS DREADED WASTE.
NO LEVEL HEADED SCOT WOULD SAY YES TO MORE POWER PLANTS ON ITS SOIL. REMEMBER WHEN DOUNRAY ALMOST MELTED DOWN. If it had done, there would be no Highland towns or population beyond Peterhead.
Remember if you play with fire EXPECT TO GET BURNED!!!

G.Coutts.
106

Lisbon-Lion,

Glasgow 11/01/2008 12:51:22
For about a year I was heavily involved in offshore wave energy until I realised that Scottish MP'S at Westminster were lying through their teeth regarding renewable energy in Scotland and I pulled my company out of renewables.

Only last week Scottish TV news showed the brekthrough of new tunnel for the new Lochness HYDRO POWER STATION.

This single HYDRO POWER STATION can easily produce enough power for the whole of Glasgow which is about 1/7 of Scotlands population. With all of our natural lochs we could easily build lots of large and small HYDRO POWER STATIONS with zero polution and at a fraction of the cost of Nuclear.

The west coast of Scotland and Ireland have the best and most natural wind and wave power in the world. If Westminster wanted they could drive thousands of offshore Wave Plants and offshore wind plants on the West coast and they could do it with ease.

Nuclear Energy is fine, but it is a time bomb for future generations to clean up our mess.
107

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 12:56:20
113 Border Scot,11/01/2008 12:37:37
Well there's a novel way of looking at things. Has Tony Blair come clean and admitted to having Scottish genes?

So the nuclear arms race is being stoked up from Scotland even when most MPs in Scotland across the devide all opposed Trident subs being upgraded?

btw Rosyth on the Firth of Forth is full of derelict old nuclear submarines waiting to be cleaned up and scrapped when they work out how to do it safely.

Maggie sent the Rosyth nuclear refit work down to Devonport.

The nukes are on the Clyde at Coulport where they have the nuclear ammo dump and at Faslane where the boats are serviced.

108

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 12:58:00
livilion (117): "Had Windscale exploded as it was expected to when they tried to put out their reactor fire with water we would simply not be here to have this debate."

Reactor cores don't simply explode and, in fact, the reactor core was salvaged. However, even a fission explosion is local: Japan did not become uninhabitable in 1945. The Windscale fire did release large amount of radioactivity, although the total estimated death toll is remarkably low, being in the thousands.

"Why did it happen? Great Britain could not stand being talked down to by the USA and had to have its own H-Bomb."

Whilst Windscale's Plutonium was used in fission weapons it had, to my knowledge, nothing to do with hydrogen bombs. Are you not aware that fission bomb and a fusion bomb are very different devices?

Your real argument, however, is that nuclear power has infinite cost. Why not simply say so, so that further debate is not wasted?
109

Andrah,

Embrugh 11/01/2008 13:00:01
A backward and inward looking decision throwing one of the best golf clubs out of the bag. This industry brings high tech jobs and wages, which it seems we don't want?? The technology (just as in all other areas of life) has transformed itself since the exisiting facilties were built, and on which the critics base their current negative analysis. A lot of folks down in Dumfries and Galloway would love to benefit from the investment which no doubt their neighbours just across the Solway will be getting.
Meanwhile the French enjoy (and profitably sell)cheap electricity, 80% nuclear derived, and their companies who will be building new plants have a huge order book from around the world from more forward looking nations. Our situation reminds me of when I worked in Liverpool in the early 80s when Hatton's loony left empire displayed "nuclear free zone" signs at the boundaries whilst heading rapidly towards bankruptcy. Perhaps we will be seeing this reflected on signs at the Scottish Border soon reflecting wee Eck's vision?
110

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 13:02:16
Rulesbutnotrulers (120): "Consider that the next many generations of workers will be toiling away not just to benefit themselves, but to pay off OUR debts. Thus to say that debts of £100m over several years is sustainable is to say that instead of our kids working for themselves we are obliging them to work for us-or radiate."

It's £100 billion not £100 million, and I do regard it as affordable. I agree that such expenditure is the present taxing the future: that's how the national debt works. Your argument implies that ANY expenditure funded by the national debt is unsustainable: do you really believe this?
111

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:07:53
121, your "if's and but's" theory are to say the least scare tactics, think you'll find GB is in a differant league to the needs of Iceland.
112

nabodican,

Portree 11/01/2008 13:08:31
Alex Salmond has completely lost the plot here and it is likely to be his downfall if he does not stop his head in the sand stance on nuclear power. His sums simply do not add up. Scotland needs about 25% extra capacity just to allow for maintenance and breakdown, this does not take in to account the back up required for the vagaries of wind power which the politicians have decreed must be purchased.
The existing nuclear power stations need replacing now and we need to stop the windfarm nonsense immediately.
113

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:12:15
Get your candles stockpiled,you may need them.
114

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 13:14:12
I have to wonder exactly what Alex Salmond is smoking these days!! For his to say "Far from there being an energy gap in Scotland, there is a strong indication that, within a generation, we will be producing four, five or six times our required electricity in Scotland, and the key issue is finding a way of exporting that power to the energy-poor regions of Europe," without any clue as to exactly HOW this might be achieved is nothing but rhetoric of the worst kind. Before playing politics with life and death issues such as future power, he needs to get a grip on reality - what have we:
o hydro is exhausted - other than a few minor opportunities
o wind power is intermittent and unreliable - requring at least 80% capacity backup
o Wave power systems not yet commercialised
o Tidal power is not yet anywhere near ready
o biomass is causing massive food price increases
o CHP is localised and not suitable for export
PLEASE Mr Salmond, tell us exactly HOW you intend to meet the above ridiculous claim in 20 years!!!
As for the claim that Scotland has increased its renewable energy production by 46% in the last year - this is absolute rubbish if you include hydro power as a renewable, which it most certainly is! Maybe we have added 46% more windmills than we had the previous year and added a few more MWs of intermittent power - not the same thing Alex!
Why oh why can't our politicians get real and stop playing petty politica with this essential area of our future!
115

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 13:15:31
kimba (131): "Get your candles stockpiled"

That suggest an interesting idea: let's introduce candles made by self-liposuction. We can have a national agency paying the obese to provide fuel, converting a cost into a benefit. The founder of this industry could be enobled as Lord Lipo . . . Together with compulsory fat extraction from the dead, we could go forth into a sustainable future, admittedly smelling of rancid bacon.
116

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 13:22:02
#124 Fairfax,11/01/2008 12:58:00

Windscale and Chernoblyl both came within seconds of an uncontrolled chain reaction caused by contact with large volumes of water.

Windscale was being pushed way beyond its design limits and yes it was being used to produce the products required and in suffient quantities to produce the British H-Bomb.

It was even butchered to reach the output required by removing sections of cooling fins on its fuel rods.

This information and others is now available under freedom of information and was the subject of a recent tv documentary featuring the nuclear scientists and engineers involved at the time.

They also revealed that they were unaware that the reactor core had been burning for days, being fed by the cooling fans blasting air into the core.

When this failed to work they resorted to fixing fire hoses onto it and attempted to put out the fire that way.

It was only by the most extreme good fortune that it did not cause the nuclear detonation that they feared was going to happen.
Chernoble it is reckoned would have flattened a 100km radius and made most of Northern Europe uninhabitable for centuries.

Nuclear reactors contain quite a bit more potential for fall out than your average nuke, even modern Trident ones or H-Bombs.

Don't do it guv they ain't worth it!
117

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:22:16
Mmm, your either p-ssed or stoned,either way it's c-ap.
118

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 13:29:21
#132 Geomac 1,Kinross 11/01/2008 13:14:12

BP's proposed Hydrogen powered power station at Peterhead would power 700,000 homes or most of the Central belt of Scotland using either natural gas or coal for fuel.

So would the two clean power coal power plants intended to replace the Forth power stations that currently produce most of Scotlands current baseload.

Next question?
119

Doh,

11/01/2008 13:31:05

The idea of building new nuclear power stations now is as short sighted and as wrong as Thatcher's dash for gas of yesteryear.

Going for a short term goal instead of investing in the future which is clearly renewable energy sources which will in the end will be cheaper.

Because radioactive waster in so deadly the government will always be responsible for it its containment and that risk and cost is not factored in to the cost of nuclear power.

Once radioactive mountians are created the nuclear industry doesnt want to know. Has anyone been for tour round a nuclear waste site?
120

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 13:31:46
128

No, its called selling out. To appeal to reactionary old Tory buffers like yourself.
121

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:32:12
136,what happens when the coal runs out?
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 13:32:48
133 Fairfax

interesting. Kimba could supply enough lard to power cnetral Scotland for two years.

Dust anyone?
123

James,

Dundee 11/01/2008 13:36:09
#115 Edwards - I smell a bullsh1tter!

Hyrdo/Wind/Wave/Thermal Exchange/Energy Efficiency/Solar etc etc - if the will was there could be onstream before Gordon's brother Andy got his bonus in 2020.

I dont give a feck about the South - Scotland only I'm afraid!
124

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 13:36:19
139 kimba,11/01/2008 13:32:12

We've got 300 years to make the alternatives cost effective just using what is under our feet.
Under the North Sea there is three to four times that amount.
No need for candles any time soon.
125

,

11/01/2008 13:36:44
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126

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:37:06
ayrshire, what the h-ll is cnetral! suggest you stop your remarks about weight ,as my lawyer is about to serve mr brian palmer with a summons.
127

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 13:37:24
livilion (134): "Windscale and Chernoblyl both came within seconds of an uncontrolled chain reaction caused by contact with large volumes of water."

That's a meltdown, not an explosion. When criticality (or near- criticality) occurs, the heat produced causes the core to, quite literally, melt or boil, with the result that criticality ends quickly. An explosion requires a brief period of super-criticality, and would not have occurred at either location.
128

James,

Dundee 11/01/2008 13:38:17
#143 Barbour Jaickets, wellies and being a contrary git will never go out of fashion though Gogs!
129

,

11/01/2008 13:38:59
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130

,

11/01/2008 13:40:01
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131

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 13:41:22
148 Yo fakey extra space dude. I think the liposuction thing at 133 has more potential. Jackie Baillie alone could keep the lights on through most of the next century.
132

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 13:41:52
Ayrshire Scot (TM)(149): "You are the correct weight, for a bloated baby hippo."

Surely you meant to say "You are a self-sustaining money machine in the battle against global warming" if we implement LipoCandles Ltd . . .
133

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 13:42:44
145 your lawyer? LMAO. Priceless.
134

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 11/01/2008 13:43:22
Re 127 : It's weird how "socialism" is turning into a kind of swear word nowadays, and is being used in a way that has nothing to do with its original meaning i.e. an economic system under which industries and businesses are run by the state.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with wanting to burn coal.
135

,

11/01/2008 13:44:00
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136

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:45:53
Laugh all you want, mr palmer won't be laughing soon!can't wait.
137

 Ayrshire Scot™,

11/01/2008 13:46:41
155 LMAO.

what you suing him for?
138

,

11/01/2008 13:47:35
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139

kimba,

11/01/2008 13:50:13
154. YOU ARROGANT EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING,SINCE WHEN CAN YOU POST SOMEONES PIC ON THE INTERNET WHEN IT WAS SENT IN TRUST,THAT MAY BE OK IN SCOTLAND BUT IN ENGLAND IT'S ILLEGAL.
140

Carlung,

Haddington 11/01/2008 13:50:17
Almost every town in Scotland has a water reservoir in the hills. Would it not be possible to turn them into small hydro-electric plants? After all, as the water is flowing downhill through the pipes it might as well turn a turbine on its way and generate electricity.
141

Niadh,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 13:55:09
Scotland has the potential in wind and wave to be able to generate the amount of power required but i think there will have to be a lot of work on improving the efficieny and resilience of such generating devices.
Anyone remembered the report from a Uni Professor last year that stated that the amount of power in the Pentland firth due to it's current was phenomenal??

On the Nuclear issue I would have to ask why we are going down that old route. Why are we not looking to increase funding and research into getting a Fusion power generating system?
CERN is switzerland have been work on one for years and have finally got it providing more than it uses.
It's clean as it uses Hydrogen as its fuel source.
The only problem is if it goes wrong it will likely only leave a very large crater. The only in CERN would likely turn Mont Blanc into Valley Blanc.
Of course if we could crack Zero Point Energy (as proposed by Einstein and Stern in 1913) we would solve the entire worlds Energy requirements forever.
142

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 13:55:35
livilion 136 says;
"BP's proposed Hydrogen powered power station at Peterhead would power 700,000 homes or most of the Central belt of Scotland using either natural gas or coal for fuel."
Where does the hydrogen come from? Could I venture to suggest that it will be derived from steam reforming of hydrocarbon (oil). So we have CH2 (generic hydrocarbon) plus steam (H2O) = 2H2 + CO2. Surprise, surprise we get CO2 in the process of making the hydrogen - where does that go? Into the atmosphere??? Sorry livilion, there no easy solution as you would imply!¬!
143

,

11/01/2008 14:01:49
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144

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 14:03:38
Would Kimba and Ayrshire Scot please stop acting like children?? This is not the place for such trivia
145

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 14:04:08
Niadh (161): "CERN is switzerland have been work on one for years and have finally got it providing more than it uses."

It's not quite there yet. The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor project, to be built in France, will, if it works, probably be the first fusion reactor to produce more power than it consumes. It's not entirely clean either: fusion produces copious quantities of neutrons, which produce radio-isotopes in the surrounding materials. Still, it's probably better than U235 and Plutonium fission.

Another interesting variant on fission is the Thorium reactor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium#Thorium_as_a_nuclear_fuel

146

kimba,

11/01/2008 14:05:51
158. funny that, then how did you know I wasn't a skinny runt.
147

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 14:07:00
Geomac 1 (162): "Surprise, surprise we get CO2 in the process of making the hydrogen - where does that go? Into the atmosphere???"

Wasn't this the proposed carbon-capture project? In other words, I think the plan was to pump the CO2 back underground, although I wasn't following the details of this proposal.
148

kimba,

11/01/2008 14:07:33
164. I apologise,but mr ayrshire needs to shut his bias mouth.
149

James,

Dundee 11/01/2008 14:12:04
#160 How remiss of me. You were in your 'Caligula' Civitate Stirlini phase at that time!
150

Alfie Bett,

11/01/2008 14:19:41
162 Geomac 1
I think you will find that the Peterhead project included the principle of carbon capture and storage but Blair and Labour as always managed to f--k that up for Scotland again

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/05/23/afx3751539.html
151

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 14:23:29
kimba (135): "Mmm, your either p-ssed or stoned,either way it's c-ap."

Not at all. Human excrement isn't an effective fuel
unless rediously dried: it's more efficient to use it as fertilizer for biofuels. I'll admit that fuel derived via liposuction might not catch on, although it would be an interesting alternative fuel for cosmetic surgery clinics. Rendering the fat from obese dead humans might be a useful carbon-neutral fuel, though. After all, if we assume each human provides, say 10 kg of useful hydrocarbons at death, then that's 5 million kg, or roughly 1 million gallons, of hydrocarbons per year for England; see

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=952
152

,

11/01/2008 14:31:06
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153

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:36:05
#100 Fairfax

Ah the old Oil revenue tax as %age of GDP argument. Meaningless its like like using income tax as a factor of GDP.

Taken as a percentage of Government Tax Revenue or as a percentage of Space it takes up in the annual budget its much more significant and actually meaningful.

Further taken as a percentage of Tax revenue of a low populated Scotland it is magnified still further. Thats the figure that really counts or would have counted.

Financial arguments aside, I agree that England would have been much more like France and overproduced. Except France is deseperatley trying to viable Fusion public scale by 2070 (2050 experimentally). UK.Gov has now locked the UK into that risky strategy. France had no choice. UK Gov could at least have mitigated its Nuclear dependancy and future Fusion Gamble by having a full consultation. Too late now, and most of the politicians will be dead by 2050.

I can perhaps see the justification for EDF to build 4 plants in the SE. Going large scale Nuclear is a major gamble in too many ways.
154

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:36:18
#100 Fairfax

Ah the old Oil revenue tax as %age of GDP argument. Meaningless its like like using income tax as a factor of GDP.

Taken as a percentage of Government Tax Revenue or as a percentage of Space it takes up in the annual budget its much more significant and actually meaningful.

Further taken as a percentage of Tax revenue of a low populated Scotland it is magnified still further. Thats the figure that really counts or would have counted.

Financial arguments aside, I agree that England would have been much more like France and overproduced. Except France is deseperatley trying to viable Fusion public scale by 2070 (2050 experimentally). UK.Gov has now locked the UK into that risky strategy. France had no choice. UK Gov could at least have mitigated its Nuclear dependancy and future Fusion Gamble by having a full consultation. Too late now, and most of the politicians will be dead by 2050.

I can perhaps see the justification for EDF to build 4 plants in the SE. Going large scale Nuclear is a major gamble in too many ways.
155

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 14:36:57
167 Fairfax says
"Wasn't this the proposed carbon-capture project? In other words, I think the plan was to pump the CO2 back underground, although I wasn't following the details of this proposal"
Yes it was but that project has been dropped - carbon sequestration has yet to be proven - and also that it is not prohibitively expensive.
156

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 14:40:41
171 Alfie Bett says:
"I think you will find that the Peterhead project included the principle of carbon capture and storage but Blair and Labour as always managed to f--k that up for Scotland again"

You really shouldn't believe what politicians say - this project was stopped by BP on the grounds of cost NOT planning. It will be interesting to see how Salmond et al get on at Longannet, where they are talking about CO2 sequestration - no Blair or Labour to blame when this project fails - as indeed it will - on cost graound if nothing else
157

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:40:56
#100 Fairfax

Ah! The old Oil revenue tax as %age of GDP argument. Meaningless. Its like using income tax as a factor of GDP.

Taken as a percentage of Government Tax Revenue or as a percentage of the space it takes up in the annual budget its much more significant and actually meaningful.

Further, taken as a percentage of Tax revenue of a low populated Scotland it is magnified still further. Thats the figure that still really counts and would have counted.


Financial arguments aside, I agree that England would have been much more like France and overproduced. Except France is now deseperately trying for viable Fusion to be public scale by 2070 (2050 experimentally). UK.Gov has now locked the UK (South) into that risky strategy. France had no choice. UK Gov could at least have mitigated its Nuclear dependancy and future Fusion Gamble by having a full consultation. Too late now, and most of the politicians will be dead by 2050.

I can perhaps see the justification for EDF to build 4 plants in the SE. Going large scale Nuclear is a major gamble in too many ways.

P.S. I now know what Rump Uk is going to be called -
UK238 ;)
158

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:41:24
#100 Fairfax

Ah! The old Oil revenue tax as %age of GDP argument. Meaningless. Its like using income tax as a factor of GDP.

Taken as a percentage of Government Tax Revenue or as a percentage of the space it takes up in the annual budget its much more significant and actually meaningful.

Further, taken as a percentage of Tax revenue of a low populated Scotland it is magnified still further. Thats the figure that still really counts and would have counted.


Financial arguments aside, I agree that England would have been much more like France and overproduced. Except France is now deseperately trying for viable Fusion to be public scale by 2070 (2050 experimentally). UK.Gov has now locked the UK (South) into that risky strategy. France had no choice. UK Gov could at least have mitigated its Nuclear dependancy and future Fusion Gamble by having a full consultation. Too late now, and most of the politicians will be dead by 2050.

I can perhaps see the justification for EDF to build 4 plants in the SE. Going large scale Nuclear is a major gamble in too many ways.

P.S. I now know what Rump Uk is going to be called -
UK238 ;)
159

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:42:18
Sorry for the double post - Web Site said there was an error the first time....
160

Alfie Bett,

11/01/2008 14:47:54
#176 Geomac1
"Yes it was but that project has been dropped - carbon sequestration has yet to be proven - and also that it is not prohibitively expensive."

The project was not dropped it was lost by useless labour fannying about"BP would consider participating in another carbon capture project with other firms using the knowledge it had collected from Peterhead.The firm is investing in two similar schemes in California in the US and near Perth in Western Australia."


161

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 14:48:20
David MacVicar (174): "Ah the old Oil revenue tax as %age of GDP argument. Meaningless its like like using income tax as a factor of GDP."

On the contrary: it provides an estimate of its importance to the economy as a whole, as opposed to the state's profligate spending. I agree that the loss of oil income would be nontrivial for the Treasury, and might well lead to much-needed reductions in our welfare and public sector budgets; still, those budgets would also be reduced by the secession of Scotland. However, the general effect on the English economy would be small, and I'm much more interested in the latter: I want to reduce the state.

"Except France is deseperatley trying to viable Fusion public scale by 2070 (2050 experimentally)."

I'm not sure any project designed to last decades can be described as desperation. Of course, you're quite correct that it's a gamble, although there's surely some grandeur in the dream of fusion power.

"I can perhaps see the justification for EDF to build 4 plants in the SE."

Agreed. I think England now generally supports nuclear power: there is no wish for England to become dependent on potentially hostile nations for fuel, whether Russia or a newly independent Scotland.
162

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 14:54:53
#97 Fairfax

It seems that your argument amounts to.

Since the Govermeants screw up over Northern Rock superceeds current decommisioning costs that makes it OK to spend all that public money?

Health and Welfare are social issues I suppose. Unknown decommisioning costs justified in the context od the Northern Rock perspective fills us all with confidence!!
163

Border Scot,

11/01/2008 14:59:12
#183 - You seem to know about these things. How do you export energy? Our FM is telling us that very soon Scotland will be exporting energy to energy-poor countries. With England going nuclear and Scandinavia OK, where will Scotland's market be and how will we get the energy there?

Also, is Scotland a big enough market to justify the investments in renewables tat veryone on here is claiming will happen. If I were an energy company, wou;d I be that interested in investing billions of pounds in R&D for a market of around 5 million?

These are genuine questions. It strikes me that most of us on here don't know the first ting about any of this, so a few answers would be greatly appreciated.
164

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 15:05:17
David MacVicar (184): "It seems that your argument amounts to. Since the Govermeants screw up over Northern Rock superceeds current decommisioning costs that makes it OK to spend all that public money?"

Not so. My argument is that £70 billion, or even £100 billion, are not infinite sums that can never be funded, but amounts that can quite easily be funded over several decades: we already have several comparable and larger expenditures in government expenditure. I merely reminded you of the size of the NR loan to put the decommissioning costs in context. If you want another example, it's also roughly twice the year defence budget, but amortised over several decades.

"Unknown decommisioning costs justified in the context od the Northern Rock perspective fills us all with confidence!!"

I have little confidence in Brown's government, and agree that this government might well make bad decisions on nuclear power. Incidentally, the money they have quite likely wasted on Northern Rock has been found over a small number of months. Therefore, although it has been funded partly by the national debt, its effect is already much greater thatn the £100 billion upper bound given for decommissioning.
165

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 15:05:52
183 Fairfax. I support and agree that Fusion is a worthwhile goal - shame the UK has not invested more into it.

Dont know why you think Scotland will be a hostile Energy nation. Scotland and England are dependant on each others energy supply for the forseeable future.
One state or 2 Scotland and England will remain close Allies and somewhat dependant on each other in different areas. If we are not at each others throats now I dont see why self determination should change that?
166

David MacVicar,

web 11/01/2008 15:13:48
186 Fairfax. You make some good points and everything is relative certainly.

However my original post was of course expressely written in a pros/cons Scottish context not a UK one. Decommisioning is just one element but can only be discussed in a UK scale.

Got to go, but thanks for a reasonable discussion, rare on this site!
167

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 15:20:41
Border Scot (185): "How do you export energy? Our FM is telling us that very soon Scotland will be exporting energy to energy-poor countries. With England going nuclear and Scandinavia OK, where will Scotland's market be and how will we get the energy there?"

I'm a mathematician with interests in finance, rather than a power engineer, so I'm probably the wrong person to give a definitive answer. However, if Scotland really were able to generate a large surplus, and if the price were competitive, then England, Wales and Ireland, rather than Europe, would be the obvious customers, particularly since the infrastructure is mostly in place. I find it difficult to believe that long-distance electricity transmission elsewhere would be feasible, or attractive, given the transmission loss: there are better uses for the surplus power, as I'll describe below.

Given substantial surplus capacity, it would probably be better to use it for electricity-intensive industries, as hydroelectricity is used in Scandinavia and Canada, rather than to attempt to export it directly. If there really were a massive Scottish surplus, then it might even be used for electrolysis, to provided hydrogen from water. I suppose it's possible that he has more speculative technologies in view. For example, it might be possible, if surplus power were plentiful, to make hydrogen fuel-cell production attractive in Scotland. However, his suggestion really is extremely optimistic.
168

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 15:27:07
David MacVicar (187): "Dont know why you think Scotland will be a hostile Energy nation."

I don't, but any nation is potentially hostile, and that matters where energy dependence is concerned: it would therefore be rational for England to diversify its energy sources after Scottish secession.

"Scotland and England will remain close Allies and somewhat dependant on each other in different areas."

I hope so too, but who knows? My view is that we should hope for the best, but plan for the worst. After all, Norway became independent from Sweden in 1905 but, despite close cultural ties, Sweden remained aloof during WWII during Norway's conquest and occupation by Germany.
169

,

11/01/2008 15:35:59
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170

HEN BROON 5,

11/01/2008 15:37:57
CONTINUED FROM #191

For your part you can continue to pretend that the map is mostly red and that we can send the fleet to sort out anyone who upsets us, that is if you can afford to un mothball it.


Please continue with your negative propaganda broadcasting from the unionist gang hut, you are the engine driving forward the independence express.
Me I am just one happy activist who is overjoyed to see the fruits of his labour result in unionism being exposed for the lie it always was. And to witness the paranoid fanatical irrationality of the unions aparatchicks on here go into orbit, what a bunch of zoomers you all are.

OCH AYE THE NOO.


ALBA GU BRATH.








171

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 15:50:37
Hen Broon 5 (191): "The simple fact of the matter is, we are on the road to independence, and the unionist gang hut and your good self are wrapped in the Butchers Apron soaked in denial."

I'm not a unionist, and would prefer the White Ensign to the Union Flag; you may have seen it on HMS Daring, the type 45 destroyer for which you expressed such fondness.

"You seek to lecture me on the ins and outs of academic examination, spinning and twisting as you go. You really cannot stomach any good news emanating from Scotland"

On the contrary: Scotland has an excellent university system. I merely pointed out that the standard of degrees varies greatly between universities, both English and Scottish: you really should not assign any great significance to small percentage differences in classes awarded.

"If you are such a great academic then reference us to your papers, and publications which I am sure you have published."

I'm just a mathematician at Cambridge: there are lots of us and I'm not particularly great. I strongly suspect that any university lecturer, and particularly any external examiner, would agree with my comments. I prefer my anonymity though.

"Yes we do not want your nuclear weapons."
Excellent: all the more for England.

"Please continue with your negative propaganda broadcasting from the unionist gang hut, you are the engine driving forward the independence express."

I'm not a unionist, but otherwise many thanks.

172

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 15:55:39
Germany attacked Norway for purely strategic reasons which did not apply to Sweden. Norway also had a pre-War semi-facist movement led by Major Vidkun Quisling who, along with tens of thousands of other facist Norwegians, wholeheartedly collaborated with the Nazi Occupation, and set up a puppet government. At the end of the war, the Norwegian government tried and excuted Quisling, and hundreds of other collaborators.

Prior to the War, Sweden never had any far-Right movements of any note but this did not stop the Norwegian 'Quislings' from attempting to infiltrate Swedish politics.

At the beginning of the War, the weak Swedish state had even less military capability than its neighbour Norway, and took the pragmatic decision to declare neutrality, simply to enable it to survive!

This did not stop the Nazis threatening Sweden with invasion unless it supplied iron ore, and other matal commodities!

However, the Swedes took an ambivalent stance and complied with German demands whilst at the same time covertly acting as a 'double-agent nation' in providing many forms of assistance to its Norwegian and Finnish neighbours.

Swedish diplomats distinguished themselves during the Second World War when, due to their efforts, many thousands of lives were saved, especially Jews bound for the Nazi concentration camps.
173

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 15:57:28
Richard 181. Why on earth would the government pay for a commercial project??? If a subsidy was required surely the Scottish lot at Hollywood could help from their funds - as they are planning to do at Longannet?
174

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 16:00:39
191 Hen broon says:
"Alex Salmond is making decision in Scotland for the benfit of Scotland. Not in Westminster for the benefit of the UK which means the SE of England."
Sorry to disagree but AS is making decisions for the benefit of the SNP - always has and always will until he gets his way on independence!!
175

Geomac 1,

Kinross 11/01/2008 16:04:40
Why is it that these debates ALWAYS end up in slanging matches between SNP supporter and Unionists.
Surely the sensible amongst us can see that we cannot allow politicians to make decisions on our future energy without their listening to real engineers - and not those Marxists posing as members of Greenpeace or those lobby groupe such as BWEA and Scottish Renewables. However, having said that I note that Jason Ormiston is not entirely on the same song sheet as AS - he is correctly urging caution and suggesting that politicains don't get carried away with their own rhetoric!!
176

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 16:06:30
Lachie Todd (194): "Germany attacked Norway for purely strategic reasons which did not apply to Sweden."

My original point, however, was merely that it is possible for countries previously in a union to cease to be strong allies, despite strong cultural ties, for which Norway and Sweden seem to be excellent examples.
177

Geoff,

South Africa 11/01/2008 16:09:31
193 Fairfax-a small point. You wont see the White Ensign on HMS Daring yet-she is undergoing sea trials and wont fly this flag until she is commisioned. Also, the White ensign is a Unionist Flag as opposed to the St.Georges Cross-one of the flags of,inter alia, England.
191,192 Hen broon"Ranting and raving harridan..""Unionist Gang hut..."Saint Alex salmond(all hail) will be recorded in history..." "Bitter and twisted Unionists..." Wow hen thats some harangue. I've seen your work before-you were a copy writer for Mao in Communist China before you moved to The Peoples Democratic republic of Scotland -no?
178

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 16:12:20
Rulesbutnotrulers (198): "#126 Fairfax. (You've had a busy day!)"

Yes, I'm recuperating from 'flu and trying not to cough on the laptop!
179

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 16:16:23
Geoff (200): "193 Fairfax-a small point. You wont see the White Ensign on HMS Daring yet-she is undergoing sea trials and wont fly this flag until she is commisioned."

Agreed -- I'd forgotten this point. What flag does she fly during trials?

"Also, the White ensign is a Unionist Flag as opposed to the St.Georges Cross-one of the flags of,inter alia, England."

At present, but I think it would make a good flag for England after Scottish independence: it remembers our proud history (as I see it) and we wouldn't have to replace the Navy's flags!
180

Geoff,

South africa 11/01/2008 16:21:56
191-Hen Broon"I'd rather see a tidal generator than a Type 45 destroyer..on the slipway at Govan."
Hen,if i was sitting on the beach in beirut waiting to be evacuated in an emergency,I'd rather see a Type 45-HMS Daring-on the horizon than a tidal generator!! The latter not much good when the sh**e hits the fan!
But then of course,as you Nats say,nobody would EVER attack little old love and peace Scotland..ever. So you guys can spend all your money on welfare and free balloons whilst welcoming that nice little man from North Korea.
Forget his name.
181

Geoff,

sa 11/01/2008 16:29:32
202-Fairfax-ta for your reply! She would fly the Blue ensign in the interim. Agree, the White ensign would make a nice flag for England and is already used in similar form amongst the unionist community in Northern ireland. If the Union remains then I would change the RN Ensign to a blue cross on a white ground-the colours of scotland with the flag of england-a suggestion made by the Flag Institute of GB.
Pity these debates are always hijacked by the neverending Independence scrap!
182

Thunderstruck,

11/01/2008 16:39:54
#204: Geoff, if I read your description of your proposed ensigncorrectly, you might get a raised eyebrow or two from the Voyenno-Morskoy Flot (Russian Navy):-)

183

Geoff,

South africa 11/01/2008 17:02:21
205 Thunderstruck-yes some remarkable similarities in Russian/UK ensign and jack(not to mention the Tsar and Bearded Brit Kings and dukes!!) but the flag institute proposal would leave the RN White Ensign as is except that the red cross would become a blue(st georges type) cross
184

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 17:07:01
#57 New Town Resident so you claim that most suitable sites are based down south eh! where the subsurface soils are made up of prodominantly clays, chalks and sands and you want to bury this stuff a few thousand feet down. Ok, fine Im happy for England to keep thier waste products and we can sort ours out. But a) how do you construct such a site, how much will that cost and b) a problem occurs where there is a major leak, how do you treat the problem, with it being several thousand feet down???? are you promoting the out of sight out of mind policy? I would much like to hear the thoughts of any ex-mining engineers or geologists on that topic?

I would also like to see more reaserch on H2O as a source of fuel for the future as well as wave power being researched further.

No to Nuclear im afraid never will be a fan I would much prefer us to manage our energy usage better, how many people leave thier PC'S running 24/7 or other massive energy wasters Like Mossmorran in Fife burning emergency excess gasses for 48 hours solid, thats millions of cubic meters of gas spewing out into the atmosphere and set alight.

Its all a huge con, carbon index taxation my f*cking ar*e.
185

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 17:12:41
#95 unless the moon stops orbiting our wee planet all of a sudden, wave power will be there 24/7/365 for the next couple of billion years anyway.

Oh and to all those fans of Nuclear power may I add a few little words.

THREE MILE ISLAND, CHERNOBYL our familly sees kids from the surrounding area at chernobyl whose life expectancy is twenty years maximum.

These kids already have advanced cancers and tumours so I will be damned if I am going to support nuclear, this people is not the answer.

I do understand neither is oil fired or coal, for gods sake we dont want to go backwards but neither is nulear.
186

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 17:15:41
#113 they took the work from Rosyth to Devonport but forgot to take the rotting nuclear hulks with them can someone please call in at Rosyth and pick them up before they sink in the harbour, that would be awfully nice.
187

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 17:20:49
Jay Kay (207): "down south eh! where the subsurface soils are made up of prodominantly clays, chalks and sands"

That's true in the SE, but England is more varied than that; see, for example

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg/ukmap8.jpg

Here's some New Scientist information on this topic, sourced under the Freedom of Information Act:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7504

As you can see, at least one site is in the Thames Estuary.
188

Thunderstruck,

11/01/2008 17:25:43
#206: Geoff, Ah, I see, a vertical blue cross as opposed to a diagonal blue cross!

#208: Wave power does exist - check out Wavegen in Google. One pilot site (on Islay) does produce electricity - not a lot, but it does produce.

This is, however, not produced without cost. Useful wavepowr tends to be found in the more remote parts of Scotland where the road network is, shall we say, less extensive that in the Central Belt so ferries and trucks are involved in longer journeys. Roads may have to be built. Thousands of m3 of rock will have to be blasted and excavated. A transmission network will need to be installed. All of this has a monetary and a carbon cost.

In other words wavepower is not free and a comparison of lifetime cost of generation needs to carried out consistently for all forms of generation. Then we can consider the desecration of the rugged beauty of Scotland's coastline.
189

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 11/01/2008 17:29:08
#210 Fairfax
Looks like essex could be in trouble.
190

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 17:33:01
Thunderstruck (211): "In other words wavepower is not free and a comparison of lifetime cost of generation needs to carried out consistently for all forms of generation. Then we can consider the desecration of the rugged beauty of Scotland's coastline."

No disagreement, but wavepower need not be ugly. The Rance estuary generator in Brittany certainly isn't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_tidal_power_plant

My family visited this area on holiday last summer and
were impressed.
191

Thunderstruck,

11/01/2008 17:47:53
#213: Fairfax, the one on Islay is certainly no beauty! Have a look, it is pictured in Wavegen's website:

http://www.wavegen.co.uk/what_we_offer_limpet_islay_wavecam.htm

and that is its "good side".

192

New Town Resident,

11/01/2008 17:49:49
207. fyi there is material on the BGS (British Geological Survey) website which cover some of the questions you have.
193

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 17:52:58
#208

THe moon causes the rise and fall of the tides - it does not create waves except insofar as the movement of the tide is a wave..
194

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 18:00:19
#178

Surely UK235
195

Alfie Bett,

11/01/2008 18:04:47
#195 Geomac1 says,
"Richard 181. Why on earth would the government pay for a commercial project??? If a subsidy was required surely the Scottish lot at Hollywood could help from their funds - as they are planning to do at Longannet?"

Apparently scientists disagree with you,

http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/CarbonAction.asp

Here is an excerpt

"It will fall to scientists and engineers to provide the solutions and actions to reduce these through CCS. These vital projects must be initially funded and supported by our Government, and the international fiscal and regulatory framework established to make such activity commercially self-sustaining."
He added: "If Britain takes the lead in this essential area of science and industry it will produce enormous benefits, not least of which is income for the country by selling its expertise around the globe."

This Westminster government had a golden opportunity to get a head start in on this lucrative business if they had given BP government investment at the Peterhead project,but it is never Westminster strategy to put money into Scotland only take billions out in revenue,I'm a cynic when it comes to Westminster and I'm just waiting for the eventual news in the next few months that they will finally invest in CCS development but doubt very much that it wll be in Scotland.


196

gus1940,

Edinburgh 11/01/2008 18:07:12
#124

Fusion bombs require a fission bomb to detonate them.
197

Jaime,

FALKIRK 11/01/2008 18:44:32
I think all the above comments are a cover for Alex Salmond's intention to introduce a new SCOTTISH HIGHWAY CODE FOR DRIVERS which will begin on the premise that when all other nations' instructions to KEEP RIGHT mean exactly that - the SCOTTISH version will mean KEEP LEFT - and vice-versa. He just likes to be different see!!!
198

The Strategist,

11/01/2008 19:21:18
There is also biomass... EON are building a 44 Mw biomass fuelled power station near Lockerbie. Of course as one would expect the technology is being provided by Siemens and Kvaerner because Brown's City chums won't fund technology devt but there is potential for a number of these plants around Scotland.

And - there is increasing interest in Germany in another biomass system that takes methane produced by manure and other rotting bio things and then that's burnt in a generator. A few large prototypes have been built by a company whose name I can't remember.

As far as comments about nuclear creating opportunities for Scottish engineers then I'm afraid this isn't very likely other than in a maintenance/operations type role or short term construction roles... We don't have a reactor builder.. Gordon sold it to the Japanese last year.
199

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 19:24:35
gus1940 (219): "Fusion bombs require a fission bomb to detonate them."

Agreed, but the large demand for Plutonium was for pure fission bombs: a fusion bomb can be detonated with a fairly small quantity of Plutonium. My suspicion was that the original poster had confused fission and fusion devices, so my pedantry chip engaged.

On this topic, there's an excellent general site on nuclear weapons here

http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm

This site even has some fascinating photos (with the wonderful name of rapatronic photos) of nuclear explosions taken small fractions of a second after the supercriticality.

200

tomislav,

Scotland 11/01/2008 19:30:47
We are a vital and welcomed part of United Kindgom and we are not Indpendent, nor never will be!!! thank goodness!!!!, so an article and a point like this above is mildly interesting and I am confident it will keep Alex and his Spacemen in hot air for ages to come, but basically at the end of the day, no value in the big picture, just please people, keep quiet before the clown starts to engage more consultants with our money to "prove his point"
201

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 19:36:16
196 Geomac 1,Kinross 11/01/2008 16:00:39
191 Hen broon says:
"Alex Salmond is making decision in Scotland for the benfit of Scotland. Not in Westminster for the benefit of the UK which means the SE of England."
Sorry to disagree but AS is making decisions for the benefit of the SNP - always has and always will until he gets his way on independence!!


Would you imagine that the leader of a political party would make decisions that did not fit with the ethos of the party.
The clue is in the title Scottish NATIONAL Party. So why is everyone so surprised that his ambition is independence. The wonderful thing is that the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster come the next general election.
There is not a shadow of a doubt in anyones mind that supports our great party that the agents of the Brit Nat establishment are burning the midnight oil deperately looking for way's to derail Alex Salmond, these aparatchicks can be very inventive, you can see their trail on these forums.


GEOFF IN SA.

If you were sitting on a beach in Beirut waiting for The Navy to recue you now, you might be in for a very long wait. As usual it took the Americans to show us how it was done the last time.
Scotland will have it's own maritime force, and like many of our independent scandinavian neighbours it will be effective and up to looking after our national interests in our national waters. Rather like wee Iceland did when Rule Brittania pitched up to try and nick their fish, twice. We will not be losing sleep over Korea. And as has always been the case if their is a national crisis Scots will be in the front line, despite the attempted slur by Fairfax regarding the last war and Sweden. Europe and NATO need not fear the desire or ability of Scots to fight when called.




114 Ayrshire Scot™,11/01/2008 12:41:17
113. Border

please supply the quote from an SNP minister who said a few weeks ago that "Westminster was about to force nuclear power on an unwillin
202

fred bear,

Cheshire 11/01/2008 19:46:57
208

You should give your evidence to the WHO/UN. Their conclusion is that there are circa 50 direct deaths as a result of Chernobyl, and it has been estimated that there might be about 4000 long term deaths. Far from seeing these cancers, which should be appearing by now, they conclude that they are not yet appearing, so the figure of 4000 is almost certainly an over-estimate.

What they do say is that chronic health affects in the area are overwhelmingly due to deprivation factors and the paralysing depression (their words) resulting from the likes of you suggesting they are all doomed rather than telling them to get on with thier life.

You, of course, will not submit your evidence because you have none.

On the general thrust of the board, if Scotland doesn't want nuclear, then don't have it. We can sever the current grid connector with England (which has only a capacity of 2200MW if my memory serves me correctly), and we can each go our own way. South of the border can have nuclear plants which take up the area of about 10 soccer pitches each, and Scotland can have the equivalent in windmills which would take the area of Dartmoor for each nuclear plant.

Such a modest nuclear programme would not add significantly to the waste issue, a majority of which is a legacy of nuclear weapons research not civil nuclear power.
203

Sambo,

The deep south 11/01/2008 19:49:12
If Scotland has 100% of it's power needs and actually exports 20% to England. Then why is electricity so expensive in Scotland?
204

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 20:13:06
114 Ayrshire Scot™,11/01/2008 12:41:17
113. Border

please supply the quote from an SNP minister who said a few weeks ago that "Westminster was about to force nuclear power on an unwilling Scotland"


As ever Ayrshire Scot™, right on the money but you will never get an answer from these slimy trolls that crawl around here day and night.
205

HEN BROON 5,

11/01/2008 20:14:43
#226. Should you not be hibernating....oh you are, sorry.
206

fred bear,

Cheshire 11/01/2008 20:32:12
#230 Meaning what, exactly? If you disagree with something, state your case, with supporting evidence if you have any. Resorting to a post which I assume is intended for cheap laughs suggests you have nothing meaningful to contribute.
207

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 11/01/2008 20:36:49
What is left after producing electricity from nuclear power is dangerous, in that disposal is to say the least, dodgey. I have no doubt that some day a inebriated (as all Scots are portrayed by the english) Scot will design a way to use this waste, in a way which will not destroy the country we live in. This will, as in the past , be sold to a third world country for peanuts, and will then be sold back to us at huge cost to use to dispose of the waste we ourselves produce!
208

Fairfax,

11/01/2008 20:43:29
Hen Broon 5 (225): "And as has always been the case if their is a national crisis Scots will be in the front line, despite the attempted slur by Fairfax regarding the last war and Sweden."

What slur? I pointed out that, despite Norway's independence from Sweden occurring as recently as 1905, Sweden stood by whilst Norway was conquered by Germany. I have slurred Sweden, certainly (and Norwegians also make this point at times, somewhat more forcefully), but not Scotland. My original point was that, following dissolution of the Union, there is no reason to assume that England and Scotland would automaticallly share any form of close alliance, any more than Norway and Sweden did. Having said that, although I support dissolution, I hope that relations remain good.
209

AJM,

11/01/2008 20:48:13
Hen Broon5 I read you glory glory rant as it was most amusing, especially the total lack of mentioning the SNP, you are clearly one of those on a personality cult trip. AS does not get everything right he will/does get things wrong. This has been quite a reasoned debate, so please take time to look at the issues not just blindly go on the shirt tails of AS.
Oh dear Enster 232, you did get in a stereotype, but what about the Simpsons token Scot, does that suite your case point. Anyway why should Scottish universities educate Nuclear Engineers when there will nothing for them to do except go south.
210

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 11/01/2008 20:54:04
Providing investment in energy efficviency as well as renewables is planned for then there is no reason why Scotlands requirements cannot be met by alternatives to nuclear.
211

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 11/01/2008 20:55:01
Take fossil fuels out of the equation and there will be a big deficit. What irony if the Ace enn Pee ends up having to import electricity from England
212

langtonian,

scotus 11/01/2008 21:00:50
First Minister Alex Salmond appears to let his natural gambling instinct take precedence over any qualms by poo-pooing informed technical advice, relative to nuclear power supply, as part of our future needs

It is one thing to grandstand his seperatist ambitions with peripheral interferance on golf courses ,and funding anything and all things Gaelic,to highlight two of many examples.His on going develling away at causing ructions between Westminster and the Scottish Executive is transparent in every statement.

In the long run, Scotland will survive his "migeing" on these two ,and other's of the same ilk,however there is a very real danger in his leaving this country struggling to cope with an up to date nuclear power input in to the UK national grid.
SNP.desperation can not be allowed to become a "Hari Kari" option for Scotland within the UK.
213

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 21:51:57
#234 AJM.

Och your far to generous. At least if I was on a personality cult trip, there is personality their to go on a cult trip with, unlike the Unionist benches who all appear as torn faced professional mourners. I will admit that one reason why Alex and the Eth en pee are so blindingly brilliant is because of the dearth of personality talent and brain cells in the opposition.
Now away and find your knitting pattern before you make a mistake in that long scarf.
214

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 21:54:21
#238 Confirms my last observation. Time to see matron Langtonian you have been at it long enough today, let some one else have a wee shot, no not the gun.
215

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 22:03:02
Sorry old bean, your inference was clear, that Scotland might stand by and watch England be invaded by a fascist regime, do you really believe that? I sincerely hope not as it would not happen. Unless of course they provoke our Welsh or Irish cousins into a military offensive then we would have to think twice :o)
216

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 11/01/2008 22:08:44
231 fred bear,Cheshire 11/01/2008 20:32:12
#230 "Meaning what, exactly? If you disagree with something, state your case, with supporting evidence if you have any. Resorting to a post which I assume is intended for cheap laughs suggests you have nothing meaningful to contribute."

Lots of meaningfull contributions have been made by me, you just don't get the meaning. No laughs are cheap, they all come at a cost, especially the one I had at your #226, nearly spilt my Glemorangie.

Are you sharing with Langtonian?

GOODNIGHT.

ALBA GU BRATH.
217

langtonian,

scotus 11/01/2008 22:34:58
#243 Hen Broon Just for the record, the three posting's tonight are my first since about 21/12/07.

Being Plebeian by nature, my tipple is Co-op own brand @ £9.96 a bottle and very good it is.

The Green Campaign is at least a positive, optimistic attempt at making more people aware of an ongoing situation
218

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH. 11/01/2008 22:41:02
#224. Thats what I mean by "long enough."

That Co-op stuff will do for your kidneys, do you dribble?

:o)
219

HEN BROON 5,

11/01/2008 22:42:32
HAVE TO SHARE THIS FROM THE HERALD.

Posted by: You Know it Makes Sense on 8:52pm today
with all that kinetic energy sloshing about in the sea it does seem incredible that there is a lobby that says that the only way forward is to have nuclear energy with all it's attendant costs and radioactive waste legacy. Of course if you read Tony Benn's articles he will now admit that the nuclear power programme was a front for the production of nuclear material for the bomb. Moreover, why was Calderhall, Chapecross and Dounrey located so far away from the South of ewngland at a time when road infrastructure was very poor. yes you've got it! it was the Union Dividend, and together with polaris and it's sucessor trident, these are the things that the South do not want on their patch. Moreover, with the current super quaries and the low levels of population, where better to locate nuclear dumps than in Scotland. The natives will be thankful for the few jobs and the South will be thankful that the waste is up here. NIREX has plans, they have advertised for jobs for repositories to be located in dumps her in Scotland, the plans are well developed. Indeed jobs for thes nuclear repositories have been advertised in the Herald no less! A Union Dividend. You know it makes sense!
with all that kinetic energy sloshing about in the sea it does seem incredible that there is a lobby that says that the only way forward is to have nuclear energy with all it's attendant costs and radioactive waste legacy.

Of course if you read Tony Benn's articles he will now admit that the nuclear power programme was a front for the production of nuclear material for the bomb.

Moreover, why was Calderhall, Chapecross and Dounrey located so far away from the South of ewngland at a time when road infrastructure was very poor.

yes you've got it!

it was the Union Dividend, and together with polaris and it's sucessor trident, these are the things that the South do not want on their patch.

Moreo
220

HEN BROON 5,

11/01/2008 22:45:23
OOPS I DON'T KNOW TWITCHY FINGERS,
221

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 23:29:05
Watch the BBC's documentary on the 50th aniversary of the Windscale disaster when the race to build a British H-Bomb before a Test Ban Treaty came into force came within a bawhair of making the UK uninhabitable for centuries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7030281.stm

A precis
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=842

The whole documentary for download:
http://www.mininova.org/tor/948272
222

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/01/2008 23:35:37
The main editorial in the paper version is , of course, of the opinion that Salmond is on the wrong track.

Plas ça change there then.
223

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/01/2008 23:36:44
Plus ça change also
224

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 23:46:38
124 Fairfax,11/01/2008 12:58:00

""Reactor cores don't simply explode and, in fact, the reactor core was salvaged.""

You think?

Watch this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7030000/newsid_7030700?redirect=7030713.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1


However, even a fission explosion is local:
Japan did not become uninhabitable in 1945.""
Yes but the USAAF did not drop 11 tons of uranium on the Japanese did they?

You also said:
""Whilst Windscale's Plutonium was used in fission weapons it had, to my knowledge, nothing to do with hydrogen bombs?""

Not according to Dr Dunworth, a senior manager in the Nuclear Research Laboratory who worked there at the time:

From the BBC
Windscale: Britain's biggest nuclear disaster
Broadcast:Monday, 8 October, 2007, at 2100 BST on BBC Two.
Quote
""...Scientists had been warning about the dangers of an accident for some time.
The safety margins of the radioactive materials inside the reactor were being further and further eroded.

"They were running much too close to the precipice," says in Harwell, Oxfordshire, who was one of those highlighting the potential dangers.

But the politicians and the military ignored the warnings; instead they increased demands on Windscale to produce material for an H-bomb...""
End Quote.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7030281.stm

See the link above for the whole documentary.

btw did I mention that Calderhall(Windscale/Sellafield) drew more electicity from the national grid than it produced whem making bomb material for the UK WMD program?
225

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 23:49:35
124 Fairfax,11/01/2008 12:58:00

""Reactor cores don't simply explode and, in fact, the reactor core was salvaged.""

You think?

Watch this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7030000/newsid_7030700?redirect=7030713.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1


However, even a fission explosion is local:
Japan did not become uninhabitable in 1945.""
Yes but the USAAF did not drop 11 tons of uranium on the Japanese did they?

You also said:
""Whilst Windscale's Plutonium was used in fission weapons it had, to my knowledge, nothing to do with hydrogen bombs?""

Not according to Dr Dunworth, a senior manager in the Nuclear Research Laboratory who worked there at the time:

From the BBC
Windscale: Britain's biggest nuclear disaster
Broadcast:Monday, 8 October, 2007, at 2100 BST on BBC Two.
Quote
""...Scientists had been warning about the dangers of an accident for some time.
The safety margins of the radioactive materials inside the reactor were being further and further eroded.

"They were running much too close to the precipice," says Dr Dunworth, a senior manager in the Nuclear Research Laboratory in Harwell, Oxfordshire, who was one of those highlighting the potential dangers.

But the politicians and the military ignored the warnings; instead they increased demands on Windscale to produce material for an H-bomb...""
End Quote.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7030281.stm

See the link above for the whole documentary.

btw did I mention that Calderhall(Windscale/Sellafield) drew more electicity from the national grid than it produced whem making bomb material for the UK WMD program?
226

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2008 23:50:30
oops
227

Sanny,

Glasgow 12/01/2008 01:47:01
The world's tidal power resource is estimated at some 150bn kilowatt-hours a year (representing capital investment of around £40bn). The UK share has been estimated at 13bn kilowatt-hours (Phase II UK Tidal Stream Energy resource Assessment, Black & Veatch, 2005), of which over 80 per cent is located in Scottish waters.

With these resources available who can justify the risk of nuclear. Funds intended for the nuclear field should be diverted to accelerate the development in this area.

When the oil runs out then we will still be a major exporter of energy.
228

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/01/2008 04:06:58
Hello All,

It never ceases to amaze me: you Greenies whine constantly about needing and wanting more 'renewable' energy generation sourcing, but when Wind Farms and Solar Farms companies propose to build them, thus saving the environment from your points of view, you Greenie Lot come out of the wood work with lawsuits to SHUT DOWN the construction of these 'environmentally friendly' energy producing farms.

Same with Nuke Plants; you want power, but you don't want ANY risk involved with generating it.

Guess what people? Life itself is risk, so get over it.

France is the best available comparative for electricity production using Nuke Plants, for Britons to look at, for the REASONABLE dangers pertaining to Nuke Plants.

Question: How many French Nuke plants have blown up?

Question: How many French Nuke plants have contaminated surrounding cities and countryside with lethal radiation?

Question: How many French Nuke plants have lethally SCRAMMED since inception of production?

THESE are the most important comparatives for Britons to know, concerning safety issues.

Lastly, Salmond is rather cheery about CURRENT needs. What about the needs of Scots 10 YEARS from now?

It's all too familiar a mindset to the New Forth Bridge that will be built: same capacity for 20-40 times the original publicly stated costs, with no look to future needs.

Britain is moving as fast as it can into the Stone Age.

Cheers from the Rockies
229

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/01/2008 04:20:04
Hello to all the No More Oil Doomsdayers,


My, my, my, what a truly intellectually vacuous lot you are.

Your constant invocations of Doom and Gloom are worthy of the Luddite Mindset which pervades the adherents of the Green Revolution.

Apparently your Thinking Caps must either be on the blink, OR you've eschewed them because they used too much energy.

Do you lot understand the MASSIVE LEAPS in oil exploration, drilling, and retrieval (pumping), technologies which have taken place during the last decade?

We can now drill down over 6 MILES beneath the oceans' surfaces to safely extract oil. New Oil Finds occur every year, because new technology allows us to read the surface of the Earth better and better.

People, we have only just SCRATCHED the Earth's Oil Deposits for the available production: one need but look at a globe to understand that FACT.

The Antarctic and the Arctic are both sources for vast oil deposits, and belief in the existence of those deposits (and other valuable mineral wealth) is evidenced by the new wave by Arctic Nations to lay claims to those potential Arctic finds.

Did any of you know that only some 5% of the Earth's Gold Deposits have been found and extraction production begun? Same thing for many other precious metals and gemstones.

Stop with the Chicken Little wailing will you? I heard the same tripe 35 years ago from your elder counterparts: except that THEN we were at the beginning of the New Ice Age!!!!!!

The oil was to be gone by 2000 (my, how is it we still have petrol stations?), and the Ice Glaciers were to have covered Scotland.

What happened?

Cheers from the Rockies.
230

Fairfax,

12/01/2008 11:13:04
Livilion (251): "However, even a fission explosion is local:
Japan did not become uninhabitable in 1945.""
Yes but the USAAF did not drop 11 tons of uranium on the Japanese did they?"

Indeed not, but it is beyond current technology to cause fission in 11 tons of Uranium: a meltdown would occur, as I mentioned before, but not explosion. In a fission bomb, the exponential increase in neutron density is prolonged by the shockwave of a chemical explosion (i.e. charges placed around the fissile material to produce an approximately spherical shockwave) and by the use of a neutron reflector, typically a beryllium shell. The mass of Plutonium is fairly small, typically less than 25kg -- not much large than a man's fist. The chemical explosion schockwave places an upper limit on the size of bomb: 11 tons of Uranium would produce a vast quantity of heat and radiation, but would melt rather than form a nuclear explosion: supercriticality is difficult to achieve.

"""Whilst Windscale's Plutonium was used in fission weapons it had, to my knowledge, nothing to do with hydrogen bombs?""

Not according to Dr Dunworth, a senior manager in the Nuclear Research Laboratory who worked there at the time:"

There's no contradiction here. My point is that there was no H-bomb research or manufacture at Windscale -- in your original post, you seemed to be suggestion that a fusion explosion might have occurred there. To my knowledge, this would have occurred at Harwell and AWRE. The Plutonium produced at Windscale was certainly used for weapons, as was Plutonium from many nuclear reactors. If I recall that documentary correctly, this point is made therein.

231

Fairfax,

12/01/2008 11:24:09
Hen Broon 5 (242): "Sorry old bean, your inference was clear, that Scotland might stand by and watch England be invaded by a fascist regime, do you really believe that?"

There is no such suggestion. Norway and Sweden simply form an interesting example of two countries which, whilst united until 1905, did not fight together in WWII. The point is that formerly united countries do not always stand together in times of adversity.
232

livilion,

livingston 12/01/2008 17:15:24
#259 Fairfax,12/01/2008 11:13:04
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
OK so you can't use hyperlinks, no shame in that,
Here, don't take my word for it.
In longhand:
THE 1957 WINDSCALE FIRE
>>>
*News media - Feel free to reproduce this content but please credit www.Lakestay.co.uk

In October 1957 Britain spread a plume of radioactive contamination into the atmosphere from a nuclear reactor fire at Sellafield.
Having helped the US Manhattan Project develop the atom bomb at the end of the Second World War, the British government felt it had to develop its own A bomb to be able to stay “at the Top Table” as a world power. The Americans had refused to allow Britain to have the weapons technology its own scientists had helped develop.

Without any reference to Parliament great energy was poured into producing a British bomb. (The first time MP s were told officially was through a brief announcement in 1947)
One key requirement were reactors to burn uranium and produce plutonium. It was decided to use an old ammunition factory at Windscale (now called Sellafield).

The site had plenty of cooling water from Wastwater lake and was remote from population in case of any accidental nuclear incidents.
At a time of post war austerity two huge heavily shielded reinforced concrete “piles” were built at break neck speed and by 1950 the piles were operating.
Alongside the first nuclear reprocessing plant (B204) had also been built to extract the precious plutonium.

It was in February 1952 that the first salmon tin sized billets of plutonium were ferried south in the boot of a taxi to the new Aldermaston weapons factory near Oxford.
Britain’s first A bomb, code named Hurricane was detonated off the cost of Australia in October 1952. These early plutonium reactors were crude affairs with the main objective being to get the weapons material as quickly as possible.

Each “pile” was a honeycomb of carved graphite blocks. Hundreds of horizontal channels ran from the front (c
233

livilion,

livingston 12/01/2008 17:16:48
Each “pile” was a honeycomb of carved graphite blocks. Hundreds of horizontal channels ran from the front (charge face) of the reactor to the rear discharge face.

Some 35,000 aluminium cans of uranium were pushed into these channels to assemble the critical mass for the chain reactions to burn away.

As they generated the intense heat and neutron flux of a nuclear chain reaction some of the uranium converts into plutonium. The fuel cans which had undergone this fiery transformation were a few weeks later pushed through to drop out of the discharge side of the reactor. They then travelled by a mini boat along a water duct into the adjoining reprocessing plant. All this had to take place behind several feet of concrete shielding to cut down the intense penetrating radiation.

Each reactor weighed a total of 57,000 tonnes. Because the graphite could release its own latent heat suddenly and unexpectedly the entire reactor had to be deliberately heated up to aneal the graphite.

On October 8, 1957 a technician was heating up the reactor to release this so called Wigner energy.
Because of the inadequacy of the temperature measuring instrumentation the control room staff mistakenly thought the reactor was cooling down too much and needed an extra boost of heating.
Thus temperatures were actually abnormally high when at 11.05am the control rods were withdrawn for a routine start to the reactor's chain reaction.

****A canister of lithium and magnesium, also in the reactor to create tritium for a British H bomb, was probably the first can to burst and ignite in the soaring temperatures.****

This coupled with igniting uranium and graphite sent temperatures soaring to 1,300 degrees centigrade.

These early plutonium "piles" were cooled by massive fans blowing air through them. The heat and some contamination was then carried up the famous concrete chimneys that are such a symbol of the Sellafield skyline. As the fire raged radioactivity was carried alo
234

livilion,

livingston 12/01/2008 17:17:31
As the fire raged radioactivity was carried aloft. Blue flames shot out of the back face of the reactor and the filters on the top of the chimneys could only hold back a small proportion of the radioactivity. An estimated 20,000 curies of radioactive iodine escaped along with other isotopes such as plutonium, caesium and the highly toxic polonium.

In the days that followed a dangerous cloud of 'fallout' was carried in a south easterly direction towards cities in the North of England. The scientists were unsure how to deal with the raging fire. Workers were sent in relays to use scaffolding poles to frantically push out hundreds of fuel cans to try and make a fire break around the fire. Then they tried to pump in carbon dioxide gas to try and smother the flames, but the heat was such that oxygen was produced from the gas and thus fed the flames higher. ****The scientists then had to gamble on flooding the reactor with cooling water. The risk they were aware of was that explosive hydrogen and or acetylene gas could be created and then flash over into an explosion.**** As this critical decision was being taken the temperatures were climbing by 20 degrees a minute.

Luckily the gamble paid off and the water starved the fire of oxygen and the reactor was brought under control.

(Actually this is wrong, it was turning off the cooling fans that reduced the flow of oxygen to the fire and the water simply cooled the graphite moderator)

Yet even today 50 years later as the fateful chimneys are slowly taken down by shielded robots the centre of the fire crippled reactor of Pile one still contains molten uranium(this is the pile you reckon was salvaged?) and still gives off a gentle heat.


There is still unreleased Wigner energy in the graphite and water hoses are still left connected to the charge face as a final safety precaution.
<<<

In 2008 it will be at least another 20 years before Windscale Pile No1 might be able to be dismantled.

The Windscale in
235

livilion,

livingston 12/01/2008 17:18:09


In 2008 it will be at least another 20 years before Windscale Pile No1 might be able to be dismantled.

The Windscale inquiry declassified report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_10_07_ukaea.pdf

The sick joke is that the big Christmas Island H-bomb test was 'only' an enormous conventonal 700kton Atom bomb but big enough to fool the US into believing it was actually an H-Bomb.

The Grapple H-bomb was relatively a bit of a damp squib in comparison but the British bomb was eventually dumped anyway in favour of the American design.

btw At no point did I infer that bombs were being produced at Windscale.

The plant was being run way beyond its design limits in order to meet the demand for weapons grade material to build the British H-Bomb at Aldermaston.

ie Cooling fins were being cut down on fuel rods and pile temperatures increased sufficiently to cause great concern to Cockroft and his team who designed and ran the facilty.
236

Fairfax,

12/01/2008 19:27:47
livilion (261): "#259 Fairfax,12/01/2008 11:13:04
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
OK so you can't use hyperlinks, no shame in that,"

I read your hyperlink: it is entirely consistent with the description I've given earlier: the reactor core was in meltdown, but there was no nuclear explosion. Now a meltdown releases a vast quantity of heat and radiation -- an explosion certainly, but not an atomic explosion: the two are very different things. Criticality is not supercriticality.

I was wrong to state the core was salvaged, although I do recall that some fissile material was salvaged.

"The sick joke is that the big Christmas Island H-bomb test was 'only' an enormous conventonal 700kton Atom bomb but big enough to fool the US into believing it was actually an H-Bomb."

I don't have the details of the first test to hand, but such a large yield is often obtained using tritium boosting: this hydrogen isotope is injected into the core of the fission bomb and undergoes thermonuclear fusion when the fission device explodes. Thus large yield atomic bombs are often mixed fission-fusion devices. It's certainly not a true H-bomb, but it is using thermonuclear fusion. It wouldn't surprise me if the first device was of this type.

I really don't understand why you call it a sick joke. These tests were, in total, successful, and Britain's construction of thermonuclear devices was a surprisingly rapid achievement, even if we did later use the Teller-Ulam design types from the US.
237

HEN BROON 5,

NUKE FREE UNIONIST FREE ALBA GU BRATH 12/01/2008 20:23:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfzVQwW_8Jk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR8gEMpzos4
238

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 01:33:27
265 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 12/01/2008 17:45:32
Do please try to keep up.
Most of our electrical power in Scotland comes from coal.
There is no need to open new mines as underground gasisfication and directable deep drilling technology render mines obsolete.
http://www.coal.gov.uk/media//44435/ucgintroductiondti.pdf

The 1000years of coal available below the North Sea Oil fields will be won using this technology.
If not by us then by Norway who are already looking at the technology and the logistics involved.
239

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 01:52:53
266 Fairfax,12/01/2008 19:27:47

""I don't have the details of the first test to hand, but such a large yield is often obtained using tritium boosting""

It wasn't, they just made the biggest atom bomb that has ever been built, detonated it, got a fright, and claimed it was an H-Bomb.

I suspect many believe the N.Koreans may have used a similar ploy with conventional explosives to convince the West that it was now nuclear capable.

Try this link:
HOW WE LIED OUR WAY INTO THE NUCLEAR CLUB Recently released
Sunday Herald, The, Apr 24, 2005 by TREVOR ROYLE

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20050424/ai_n14599019/pg_1

The Windscale disaster was a sick joke because the UK H-Bomb program only served to massage Britain's damaged ego in the wake of the Suez debacle and UK ministers' need to be seen to be able to 'pee as high' as their US opposite numbers.

Our nuclear V bombers did not have the range to reach their designated targets and return home.

Empire and all that, what?
240

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 02:10:02
269 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 13/01/2008 01:48:24

OK I'll buy it.
What is old technology about hydrogen fuel cells, hydrocarbon gasification and carbon capture?
http://www.hydrogenenergy.com/FullStory.aspx?m=25

Why would the Greens have a hissy fit at being able to reduce UK carbon emmissions by 36%(90% of40%) in under ten years?

Peterhead for example could be up and reducing carbon output by the amount produced annually by 400,000 cars by the year 2011.

Cockenzie and Longannet could both be rebuilt to run on hydrogen in a similar time frame.

Hunterston and Torness replaced by similar units and job done, long before the 2020 date suggested to bring new nuclear stations online.

Consider that our health and that of future generations will be dependent on the integrity of these power stations to be built by the lowest tender, answerable principally to their shareholders.

Consider also the standard of build quality in the public buildings built recently using PFIs and you get where I'm coming from.
241

Fairfax,

13/01/2008 12:06:46
livilion (270): "It wasn't, they just made the biggest atom bomb that has ever been built, detonated it, got a fright, and claimed it was an H-Bomb."

If you're correct, and there was no tritium boosting, then that test was arguably more impressive than thermonuclear fusion: it's really very difficult to detonate such a large pure fission bomb. I recall a retired fluid dynamicist here in Cambridge (now dead) once mentioning that one of his early jobs was advising on the construction of spherical implosion shockwaves, with extremely precise placement of chemical explosives (i.e. more so than would be required for standard designs). It would be interesting to learn further.

"The Windscale disaster was a sick joke because the UK H-Bomb program only served to massage Britain's damaged ego in the wake of the Suez debacle and UK ministers' need to be seen to be able to 'pee as high' as their US opposite numbers."

We obviously have different axioms.

"Our nuclear V bombers did not have the range to reach their designated targets and return home."

They did, however, have the range to deliver the weapons: safe return need not have been part of the mission plan. As for range, remember that the Vulcans did manage, with refuelling, to bomb the Falklands in 1982, despite being old technology. "Vulcan 607", by Rowland White, describes this ripping yarn well.
242

Fairfax,

13/01/2008 12:21:02
livilion (270): "It wasn't, they just made the biggest atom bomb that has ever been built, detonated it, got a fright, and claimed it was an H-Bomb."

Checking details further, it seems that my conjecture was correct: Orange Grapple was indeed tritium boosted, and not simply a pure fission device. See, for example,

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq4-3.html

Now we were certainly fibbing to describe Orange Herald as a true H-bomb, but it was indeed a fission/partial fusion device, and one that employed a remarkably large fission bomb. In retrospect, despite the fibbing, it was an astonishing technological achievement.
243

fred bear,

13/01/2008 15:53:15
#243

Typical response of your ilk when you have lost an argument
244

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 20:21:30
#275 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 13/01/2008 16:56:08

I think I asked:
Why would the Greens have a hissy fit at being able to reduce UK carbon emmissions by 36%(90% of40%) in under ten years?

(Gordon Brown has just reduced his government's committment to reducing UK carbon emmissions to 10%, or half of what his predecessor originally signed up to.)

Is it because back in the 50s and 60s before the clean air acts were passed coal fires produced nasty black smog?

Newsflash:
The Scottish government are taking a positive role in encouraging the operators of Longannet and Cockenzie to rebuild their old coal burning power stations, due to be demolished in a few years, to run on hydrogen and sequester the sulphur and carbon, previously released into the air, down into strata underground where it will return to stone, netting us some valuable carbon credits from Europe into the bargain.

When you burn hydrogen all that comes out the chimney or exhaust pipe is water vapour.

Coal in the UK is not going to run out any time this millenia.
245

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 20:23:34
Oops sorry, brain fart:
BY 10%, not TO 10%.
246

livilion,

livingston 13/01/2008 20:37:28
257 Neanderthal75,Rocky Mountains USA 12/01/2008 04:06:58
As average summer temperatures in France increase, their nuclear power stations are having to be shut down due to the heat.

In 2003 France was forced to import electricity even though 80% of their base current comes from nuclear.
247

livilion,

livingston 14/01/2008 22:39:40
#279 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 13/01/2008 23:58:25
Aye they say that ignorance is bliss but don't let it make you rude.

Sorry sunshine you still haven't got it right.

Gasification of hydrocarbons is not the answer to ALL of our energy problems, but it is ready now and with it all that comes out the chimney is steam.

Does your modern fossil fuel gas(methane CH4) cooker give off smoke?
If it does you should have it seen to.
It should only give off carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapour (H2O). Chemistry101

You have a point though, coal is non-renewable, we only have enough under the British mainland to last about three hundred years and three or four times that amount again under the North Sea UK continental shelf.

But hey, why not buy gas from Mr Putin or spend hundreds of £bns keeping spent nuclear fuel out of the environtment and the hands of international terrorists?

Just out of curiosity, what were the risk assessments for Torness and Hunterston having commercial jet aircraft collide with them?

But rather than me making a poor fist of explaining the technique for treating coal at high temperature and pressure to extract hydrogen for fuel, have a wee shufty at how the US Dept of Energy describe the whole shooting match:
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/gasification/index.html

...Or the Scottish angle:
http://business.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=2745329

...How the Australians are doing it(video)
http://www.hydrogenenergy.com/FullStory.aspx?m=25

As I have said, non-poluting hydrogen produced from hydrocarbons, or even from sea water by renewables, is the short to medium term fuel of the future.

Beyond that quite a few countries have started ambitious programs to go to the moon in search of helium3, which is as plentiful there as it is rare on earth, the missing link in the quest for commercial fusion reactors.

One Space-shuttle load (25 tons)could power the entire USA for a year.

At $4bn a
248

livilion,

livingston 14/01/2008 22:43:19
#279 Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn 13/01/2008 23:58:25
Oh dear cut off in my stride...

...Beyond that quite a few countries have started ambitious programs to go to the moon in search of helium3, which is as plentiful there as it is rare on earth, the missing link in the quest for commercial fusion reactors.

One Space-shuttle load (25 tons)could power the entire USA for a year.

At $4bn a ton you can see the attraction to go mine helium3 on the moon.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html

 

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