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Morality and the self



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The day after Max Mosley's claim that extra-marital sex with prostitutes is entirely morally acceptable (your report, 8 July), we hear David Lilburn say that he feels no guilt about his affair (your report, 9 July). The corrosive drip feed of black-is-white topsy-turvy moral statements like these undermines the stability of marriage, affecting the well-being of children and causing huge emotional hurt to spouses.
"You just do what you think will make you happy" seems to be regarded almost universally as sound advice. Instead, how about: "You had better act with integrity, love and loyalty, putting the needs of others above your own whims."

RICHARD LUCAS
Cowan Road, Edinburgh





The full article contains 118 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 July 2008 8:55 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

jj veritas,

19/07/2008 09:56:34
With Moseley, Prescott and the other adults you are merely scratching the surface of moral decline. If you really want shocked just check out what they are teaching children about sexual practices and morals in UK schools.
2

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 19/07/2008 11:44:48
jj veritas: Perhaps some evidence to back up what you claim would be helpful. What is it that shocks you about what children are being taught in schools?
3

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 19/07/2008 22:04:01
I suspect that people often worry over-much about what they think children are 'taught' in schools. Children are not as easy to influence as the worriers think.
4

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 05:17:45
Time for Scotland to return to the fold. Stop closing kirks and get yourself to one instead of binge drinking and having that extra-marital sex with prostitutes. When you don't answer to a higher power you not only violate God's laws but you distroy yourself in the process. What is next sex with goats in Saint Giles?
5

Hugh V McLachlan,

Eldeslie 20/07/2008 12:54:40
'"You just do what you think will make you happy" seems to be regarded almost universally as sound advice. Instead, how about: "You had better act with integrity, love and loyalty, putting the needs of others above your own whims."'

Both of the maxims are inadequate but have some truth in them. Sometimes we should do what makes us happy whatever other people think about our actions. Often it is perfectly reasonable to satisfy our own whims. The needs of other people are often none of our business and beyond our control.

I need a couple of thousand pounds in the near future. However, that is not Richard Lucas's responsibility. If he has a couple of thousand to spare, he would be more sensible to spend the money in the gratification of his whims than to donate it to me.
6

richard l,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 17:19:03
#5
yes, but I'm talking in the context of marriage, and faithfulness in particular.
7

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 18:41:42
Having been married 28 years I have to say I would be crushed if my husband stepped out with some call girl. I would never recover. Trust in marriage is a beautiful thing. I would never do anything to hurt my mate either.
8

Hugh V McLachlan,

Elderslie 20/07/2008 18:50:50
'..yes, but I'm talking in the context of marriage, and faithfulness in particular.

I have much sympathy for what you say but it requires very careful qualification.

I would have thought that it would be an appalling thing to do to marry someone for altruistic reasons. To marry someone in order to meet their needs would be a disgraceful thing to do. One should marry someone only if it is the self-regading whim which more than any other, one wants to satisfy.

Alltruisim is much over-valued and self-regard is much under-valued as a moral virtue. Selfishness is not the same as proper self-regard. If one does not look after one's own interests, one cannot fulfil one's other duties.
9

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 19:38:40
#8, My husband would not cheat on me but if he did I would be crushed is all I am saying. We have a very close relationship based on trust, friendship and love. I have no fear of him cheating on me but in a hypothetical situation I can tell you it would be heart breaking. Our relationship is many layered and complicated as are all marriages if they make it past the first five years. I understand what you mean though, Hugh. We were very young when we met and I am sure I was selfish in many ways as are most youths but we found we had so much in common we built a lasting and satisfying long term relationship from that initial attraction. I would have denied my motives were selfish then but they no doubt were based on self interest. I was looking for someone to satisfy my needs. However I must say I always found it easy to respect and care for my lover. From that sprang a deep and lasting love because he treated me with respect. "Love your neighbor as yourself " is what the Good Book says. Self love is not an evil thing. If you don't love yourself chances are no one else will love you either. That is why alcohol abuse and drugs are so rampant in society today, people do not love themselves enough to care what happens to their physical plant or body. It is horrifying to see how little self respect and self love there is today in the West. We see young women in particular with little or no self respect.
10

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 20/07/2008 20:37:00
Beth said: "Time for Scotland to return to the fold.": Do you mean religion should be forced on us to make us better people? It has failed thus far and shows no signs of ever making the world a better place.

"Stop closing kirks": No one is closing them other than the churches themselves because people just do not want or need religion in their lives, despite your apparent belief that it's all we need for a better society.

"...instead of binge drinking and having that extra-marital sex with prostitutes.": I do not binge drink. I do not have extra-marital sex with prostitutes or anyone else. I am an atheist. You seem to think that all who do not believe what you do are immoral. Why?

"When you don't answer to a higher power you not only violate God's laws but you distroy yourself in the process.": When that 'higher power' is non-existent and unnecessary and even if that vengeful, arrogant, capricious violent god of the bible did exist, I would not demean myself to bow down before him/her/it - no one that demands such respect - on pain of death or eternal hell - deserves it.

"What is next sex with goats in Saint Giles?" What the elders get up to in their private lives is up to them... :-)

"I must say I always found it easy to respect and care for my lover. From that sprang a deep and lasting love because he treated me with respect. "Love your neighbor as yourself " is what the Good Book says.": I always find it easy to respect and care for my lover, but neither the bible nor Christianity invented morality. It simply repeated some good moral precepts, even though some are hardly universal.
11

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 21:35:53
#10, I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you attended the services of the Church of Scotland. It is hardly the fire breathing church of Knox and Calvin. The Scottish Episcopal Church is not puritanical either. They teach kindness and fight poverty and contribute a great deal to society. No one judges you or condemns you in the Church of today, it is truly joyful and up lifting to worship. When ever I am in Scotland I find a local Church. When I was over recently I noticed lots of information on fund drives for things like relief for the Tsunami victims in the small Kirk I attended in the Borders and the sermon was about love and reaching out to people in need. What I was saying above about the Kirk is this. When you take the time out every week to reflect and care enough to worship with your neighbors it's pretty hard to want to go binge drinking or whoring. If you make there effort to dedicate a day to rest and worship you will be amazed how it rejuvenates and brightens ones life. I was to some extent trying to be funny but I guess atheists have no sense of humor. Goad obviously does. Man is not the highest power. There is a creator and we are not alone in this world. I feel very sorry for you that you feel you are alone. You bitterness is quite obvious in your post on The Scotsman.
12

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 20/07/2008 22:02:03
Beth said: "I was to some extent trying to be funny but I guess atheists have no sense of humor. Goad obviously does. Man is not the highest power. There is a creator and we are not alone in this world. I feel very sorry for you that you feel you are alone. You bitterness is quite obvious in your post on The Scotsman."

You know very, very little about me yet you make such offensive personal remarks! Please spare me your pity and let's keep this to discussing the topic of morality. Do you know any atheists?

I have been to religious services - funerals (one last week, in fact) and an occasional wedding. All have been dire. No, I would not be surprised.

You say there is a creator: what makes you think this and can you define him? What is his role in morality?
13

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 22:06:43
I have known a few but most of the people I know who are not people of faith are agnostic which means they just don't know. They are not sure there is no God. I am sorry Zeno but you do come across very bitter. The fact remains the morality of the west is based on Christian morality. The laws and moral codes of today evolved in the Christian era. Like it or not your morals where fashioned by your Christian ancestors.
14

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 20/07/2008 22:49:46
Beth: You refused to answer my questions a few weeks ago about the origins of Christian morality at http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/opinion?articleid=4234286.

My last question to you there was: What specific new moral idea did Jesus expound?

I appreciate this is not a very good place for discussion - it's just meant for comments. However, you would be more than welcome to continue our discussion at www.thinkhumanism.com.
15

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 23:47:47
Zeno my friend, I answered you before but you did not like my answer. Before Christianity in the West revenge, hate, slavery, mistreatment of women and many other things we consider very wrong today were considered not only right but honorable. Just like modern day Muslim honor killings you see today in the UK it was all about appearance and honor of the family and community before Christ. If you shamed the community you were killed. These concepts do not correspond with Christian ethics. The Greeks also considered suicide and murder as just under certain circumstances. Japanese culture puts forward the idea for instance that redemption is not possible if you violate the public trust or the trust of any figure over you like a boss or parent. If you do something shameful, you much kill yourself. Christ tells us redemption is always possible. Forgiveness is always possible. This is the thing you need to know, Zeno. Only Christianity espouses that there is always redemption. Judaism does not teach this kind of redemption and forgiveness either. The secular humanism you value so highly is only Christianity with God taken out of the equation. The ideas are all Christian based. The respect for human life you value so highly in your mock religion, humanism in fact comes from Christian teachings. Hindu culture condones the killing of women when the man dies as they are of no further value to society. Today Japanese elderly people are killing themselves in record numbers because in their culture you do not burden the collective when you cannot provide for yourself. The only honorable thing to do in Japanese culture when you are helpless is kill yourself. You do not burden others. This goes against what we believe in the West based on what we have passed down from the teachings of Jesus. Christianity has always taught that society is responsible for its poor and its elderly. Indian culture has no such belief. Zeno your hatred of Christianity and your lack of unde
16

Beth Boyle,

NY 20/07/2008 23:50:08
Zeno your hatred of Christianity and your lack of understanding of world cultures makes it impossible for me to make you understand what I am saying I am afraid. Just know that through Christ's love we are redeemed and we are forgiven for our sins. Our sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb. No other faith teaches that through God's grace and the sacrifice of our Lord our transgressions are forgiven.

17

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 21/07/2008 13:28:56
Leaving aside biblical support for things like slavery, are you saying that all women were badly treated before Jesus came along? Or was it that many people did think slavery was morally wrong and that mistreatment of women was morally wrong?

The answer to this must be that many did believe these to be morally wrong. Now, perhaps Jesus reinforced these, but they certainly existed before him. If that's the case, what specific new moral idea did Jesus expound?

"The secular humanism you value so highly is only Christianity with God taken out of the equation.": Since morality predated Christianity by many millennia, surely it's "The Christianity you value so highly is only Humanism with God added to the equation"?

Another question you could answer for me is what your definition of religion is that allows you to conclude that Humanism is a religion?

I ask you again not to jump to conclusions about my personal beliefs and stick to discussing the topic.

I will reiterate my offer to you to discuss this further on the www.thinkhumanism.com discussion forum.

 

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