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Friday, 16th May 2008 Change Date

Free A to Z of Scotland's Munros
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1

Angus Ogg,

08/05/2008 23:08:59

Gordon Brown isn't "losing" his grip on Scotland. He quite spectacularly lost that almost precisely one year ago.

What he is now losing is his much vaunted grip on Scottish Labour.

The end is nigh Gordy.

It's time.



isn
2

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 00:03:39

Gordo never had a grip - on anything!
3

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 00:04:24
Another superb day in Scottish politics. It just keeps getting better.

Keep up the good work Red Wendy - You're a darling!!!
4

Encarta,

09/05/2008 00:13:27
Words fail me.
5

Senga Jean,

09/05/2008 00:13:33
I feel sad at Wendy's self destruction I now look forward to the fall of that calculating ego on wheels Nicol Stephen. Have ignored him a lot till FMQ's. His question on Burma was sick making advantage taking of tragedy. Where did he want the answer to go? Alex Salmond was brilliant in his multi party inclusive response but what was Nicol's purpose in choosing that question. He is building up a record of taking cynical party advantage over real life. Scoundrel!
6

acanthus,

09/05/2008 00:26:49
I love this:

But the move took colleagues, including the Prime Minister, by surprise. One Labour MP said the general view at Westminster was Ms Alexander had "probably gone mad".

Chairman of Labour F.C Malkie Chisholm commented that her job was safe with full backing from MP's etc etc

Nice to know the back a 'probably mad' woman as Leader in Scotland!
7

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 09/05/2008 01:40:58
The idea of David Cairns wandering around Westminster with his head in his hands is priceless.

I can hear him, muttering over and over..

"McChattering Classes, McChattering Classes, why can they no see it? Have they all gone mad?"

And let's not forget Des Browne, whome Gordon had to lock in the Tower to prevent him from killing Wendy stone dead.

You could not make this up.
8

Traquir,

Alba 09/05/2008 01:50:28
The gift that keeps giving :)

Just when it looked like it could not
get any better we are rewarded with
highly treasured gift of Cairns walking
around the House Of Commons
with his hands in his head.

What have be done to merit such generosity ?
9

ptdoug,

ek 09/05/2008 01:51:22
I'm speechless...

... but very, very happy.

I never dreamed for a moment that it would be this easy.


10

TommyKaye,

UK 09/05/2008 01:54:58
Douglas Alexander's No Show

What is it with the Alexander family this week? They seem to be doing their utmost to bring yet further opprobrium on Gordon Brown's ailing administration. Yesterday it was Sister Wendy, today it was Wee Dougie.

The Department for International Development, at which Wee Dougie is part time Secretary of State, applied to Mr Speaker to make a statement on the growing crisis in Burma. Sadly, it seems Wee Dougie forgot all about it, or was busy having urgent discussions of a non Ugandan variety with the Prime Minister. Or was stuck in traffic. Who knows? Anyway, it's the first time MPs can ever remember a Minister failing to show up for a Statement they had requested.
11

Edward,

09/05/2008 01:57:15
It was interesting though not surprising that Des Browne refused repeatedly to be interviewed by Newsnight Scotland. Isnt he supposed to be the Secretary of State for Scotland (Part Time)?
12

Edward,

09/05/2008 02:02:43
" Ms Alexander's supporters denied she was defying Mr Brown. George Foulkes, MSP, said: "There is no split apart from in the minds of journalists."
Now that is funny, as unfortunately with the aid of TV, we are able to see and hear both Wendy Alexander mouth off as well as Gordon Brown contradict and vice versa. We have all witnessed it , we didnt need journalists to tell us as we ALL saw it George, like some slow motion car crash that is Labour
13

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:06:28
#10 Tommy ... remember that wee Dougie has got history in this regard.

When the Wendy donation thing was in full swing tail end of last year, he was scheduled to appear on questiontime. David Dimbelby had to semi-credulously give out his excuse of an unspecified "family illness". I remember the audience giving it big cackles. Wee Dougie had bottled it.

Plenty refernces to the incident on google :-)
14

Edward,

09/05/2008 02:06:37
I would be very interested to know the viewing figures for holyrood.tv on Thursdays.
It (FMQ's) had now become compulsive viewing!
Yesterday we had the spectacle of Wendy trying to be clever and failing badly. Alex Salmond wiped the floor with her and the leaders of the Tories and the Libdem's jumped in as well with heavy critisim of Wendy
15

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:10:12
#12, Edward ... like you, the public are not imbeciles. It's only SLAB MSP's who are able to make sense of it. And how do they do that exactly ?

Doublethink: the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs.

George Orwell was a visionary....
16

Bob10,

09/05/2008 02:12:24
Perhaps Wendy isn't as dumb as Gordo.

A referendum is a one shot deal which, like dancing, requires balance and timing.

If a referendum was held within the next three months say, could the SNP expect a majority result or a disaster?
17

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:35:13
#16 Bob, that would probably be Wendys best chance to win it. So why would there be there any reason or obligation on the SNP to give Wendy a date that suits *her*, when *their* own manifesto date says 2010, a date that would suit their (and my) best hope for a successful outcome ?

They are the Scottish Nationalist Party, committed to independence. Its their aim to convince enough Scots over time to share that view. And if enough Scots *do* express that in paper by 2010 thats fair enough, isn't it ? Theres absolutely no compulsion for the SNP to alter their date.
18

Wardog,

Buckie 09/05/2008 02:38:49

William Hill are apparently offering odds of 150-1 on 'independence' being achieved by May 2012, 50/1 from 66/1 to take place before the end of May 2017 and 14/1 from 20/1 that it happens within fifty years.

Worth a flutter I'd say.

Other odds for Scottish Labour Leadership hopefuls

Duncan Mcneill 4-1
Ran the wrong way recently and had problems chasing 'Trumpton' in the last Meadie Estate hurdles.... needs to focus to make it round this course, he's not back in the Greenock Pub Crawl this time....

Lordy Lordy 4-1
Ridden by Herr Von Foulkes in the Cummnock Steeple Chase recently to within a whisker, or should that be whiskey of win(e)ing it. Good on the soft going, though has been know to tumble on occasion.

Andy Kerr 4-1
Ex flat racer who didn’t really empress as Finance Minister when out over political hurdles. He has since changed trainers & portfolios and although probably worth another crack needs to learn to question consultants when they are feeding him lousy research and flawed recommendations

Rhona Brankin 25-1
A fair fillie with a right pair of gnashers, she's been none to nibble her jockey's when the going get's tough. Outside chance after coming last in the EU Fishing Quota Derby.

Johann Lamont 50-1
Coming in form the cold (war), this nag ran a fine race down the left-hand side of the Falkirk National. Occasion rebellious streaks with her jockeys though would single her out as a long shot.

Jackie Baille 15-1
Weight is an issue for this young filllee, but hoping for a bold showing, if she could keep her nose down and run the race without stopping to eat the brambles....

Cathy Jamieson 5-1
Second last time out at Holyrood over 8 furlongs which proved too much a test of stamina, back today over preferred 16 furlongs and at home with the going soft....on crime
19

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:39:24
I think the grass roots of New Labours supporters are in reality Nationalists. Perhaps Wendy has actually worked that out and wants Labour in Scotland to begin the transition into a party that wants to be around after Independance. Lets face it, there wont be any of the Westminster MP's moving up here and standing for election. There is little or no chance of any spots coming up for elected former MSP's to make the transition to Westminster.

The Scottish Parliament is going to be the main show, as far as any Scottish Politician is concerned. Better repositioning themselves soon, before Brown is thrown out and the English Labour MP's take over. If that is Wendy's ploy she may actually survive Gordon Brown and his cabal of traitors.
20

Wardog,

Buckie 09/05/2008 02:44:44


Brown's Annus Horrilibus?
21

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 09/05/2008 02:58:59
I cannot wait untill 4pm each day, that's midnight SCOTLAND, when our latest recruit Wendy produces more support for our ultimate aim of INDEPENDENCE. Alex, one question SIR, is she on the PAYROLL????
22

Edward,

09/05/2008 03:05:24
I wonder what will happen next with Labour in Scotland?
My money is on a split or Wendy resigning on health grounds and to spend more time with her family
Maybe even a combination of both
23

Fanling,

Switzerland 09/05/2008 03:16:21
I am deeply ashamed that Wendy Alexander is in any way politically representative of Scotland. She has been shown up in public too often to be taken as even semi-credible. Her irrational parliamentary outbursts demonstrate her clear inability to hack (always with hysteria) her esteemed foes, Salmond and Sturgeon.

They destroy her over and over with the simple expedient of calm, incisive, intellectual argument, to which she has no counter, because she is basically not very bright. For Labour to survive in Scotland (ha-ha, dream on loonies ...) getting shot of the Alexander liability has to be the first option. That extends to her dozy brother. And Brown in his not so Southern Comfort zone. And Browne, Foulkes, and Darling ... and, and ... Scotland's shame, the lot of them.
24

Traquir,

Alba 09/05/2008 04:03:31

The gift is still giving :)

'One Labour MP says: "The general view is Wendy has probably gone mad." '

http://tinyurl.com/43xg7a

25

catgut,

pomona 09/05/2008 04:24:24
looks like we would not be that much worse of if at all
running our own little country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-big-question-what-would-scottish-independence-mean-and-how-would-it-work-824286.html
26

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 04:32:39
Maybe this will make some of the Labour MSP's wake up to themselves and realise that they don't have to be puppets of the London government. They might also realise that they were elected to carry out the will of the people, and not London. Then again, pigs might fly.
27

Bob10,

09/05/2008 04:42:27
17. Vivas.

"They are the Scottish Nationalist Party, committed to independence. Its their aim to convince enough Scots over time to share that view."

Let's get it clear- the SNP have no rights in the matter. They would be the supplicants and we know how far that would go. They don't set the date.

However, if Gordo was smart enough to pick up on Wendy's suggestion and call an extremely early referendum, then things might be dicey for the SNP.
28

Bob10,

09/05/2008 04:55:41
Following on my previous- the eejit Broon will probably wait until it is too late and then hire a bunch of consultants to explain his difficult position!!!
29

Fanling,

Switzerland 09/05/2008 04:58:39
#27 Bob10

As in your #16 you are clearly living in cloud-cuckoo land. Whatever planet you inhabit, it is not Planet Reality. Read the signs, smell the actuality.
30

Bob10,

09/05/2008 05:04:33
29. Fanling.

Keep imbibing the cheap $hit, if that is your pleasure.

It has probably destroyed your sense of smell first and then obviously your ability to read!
31

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 09/05/2008 05:06:47
#29 Read the signs, smell the actuality?

Are you on crack or something, the Scottish people (me) have consistently said no to independance. To say it is a foregone conclusion just shows how comepletely arrogant you are, there has never been a poll suggesting we would vote for independance.

All there has been ais a lot fo SNP activists on these boards shouting outof their obviously rumbling bellies.

Being neither for nor against it (previously was against it) reading the total and utter bile that you lot write basically turns me against letting you or your like run this country.

Too many little Scotlanders out there!
32

Bob10,

09/05/2008 05:11:45
21.Scotindy

"I cannot wait untill 4pm each day, that's midnight SCOTLAND, when our latest recruit Wendy produces more support for our ultimate aim of INDEPENDENCE. Alex, one question SIR, is she on the PAYROLL????"

I hate to be bitchy but, if you love Scotland so much and wish for its independence - why did you F-Off to the U.S.
33

Bob10,

09/05/2008 05:16:35
21. Scotindy.

Just remembered. William Wallace once took a trip to France. There's your out!!!
34

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 05:17:04
Catgut you beat me to the post on the supposededly INDEPENDANT NEWSPAPER. Absolutely hilarious article, just prooving exactly why we should be off in 2011.

I didnt know whether to laugh or cry when I read Andy McSmiths article. I suppose you call yourself Mc Smith when you want to be anonymous. You know things are going wrong for England when the nutter newspapers start the propaganda rot. Isnt the Independant meant to be a Lib/Dem Supporter, not very Liberal or Democratic either, what a surprise.

With Wendy and London Controlled New Labour breaking away to form an actual Scottish Labour Party, things are getting better for Scottish Patriots everyday. Alex does it again. Never say Never when it comes to the big man. He'll proove them wrong everytime. Even the English on English Media forums are saying they envey the Scots having a great pollie like Alex.
35

Bob10,

09/05/2008 05:38:39
31. Paul in Oz.

"Too many little Scotlanders out there!"

Agreed!!!!
36

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 05:41:26
#31 Paul in Oz, Helensburgh.

As I assume that you're in Helensburgh, N.S.W., I wouldn't worry about it too much if I was you, you won't have a vote on the matter.
37

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/05/2008 05:48:34
Notice the unusual silence from Lord Foulkes ?
38

Bob10,

09/05/2008 05:49:39
36. Guga II.

Only the Psychotics are worrying about it.
39

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 09/05/2008 06:21:16
"THE rift between Gordon Brown and the Scottish Labour Party deepened last night..."

There is no such beast as the Scottish Labour Party.Gordon Brown, not Wendy Alexander, is the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland. Wendy is not the leader of the Scottish MPs either. She is the leader of the Labour MSPs.

Sloppy journalism by the Scotsman.
40

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:21:33
Bob10

Great posts - we unionists have found that insulting anyone holding views other than our own is the best way to win an argument. It also brings the "don't knows " onto our side.

Paul in Oz?

Sadly, we unionists have been unable to find any "little Scotlanders" amongst the SNP government.

We do find, however, on these threads that a great number of our unionist posters belittle Scotland with out assertions that Scots are not capable of running their own country.

Just to be contrary the silly Nats encourage Scots to take a pride in their country and in their own ability.
41

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:23:42
#31

"the Scottish people (me) have consistently said no to independance."

And when did they have that opportunity?

Well they will in 2010.

42

Bob10,

09/05/2008 06:30:29
40. brownlie.

And your point is........????????
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:34:16
Bob

"Let's get it clear- the SNP have no rights in the matter. They would be the supplicants and we know how far that would go. They don't set the date."

Oh yes they do. Wendy can't deliver a bill because there is already one scheduled to be brought out in 2010.

"Only the Psychotics are worrying about it."

Like the Unionist ones that living in denial?
Like You Bob?

44

Bob10,

09/05/2008 06:35:04
41. KampungHighlander.

"Well they will in 2010."

Only according to the Gospel of Alex.

It's not documented anywhere else!
45

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 06:36:17
"Another Labour MP described the situation as "visceral", adding that David Cairns, the Scotland Office minister, had been going round the Commons with his head in his hands."

Sunshine, happiness all I need to make my morning complete is a blow-job and a lollypop.
46

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:40:59
42 Bob10

Possibly to point out that you do not have the monopoly on pointlessness.
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:46:26
The Latest YouGov poll puts the Tories at 49% Labour at 23% and the Libems at 17%.

That would translate into the following

Con 469
Lab 129
LD 24
48

Bob10,

09/05/2008 06:46:39
43. KampungHighlander.

You really do have to come down from that rarifed atmosphere. It is beginning to show that it really is affecting some of your mental functions; the bodily functions will start to reveal themselves soon! Get out now while you still have the essential functioning parts!!!
49

Bob10,

09/05/2008 06:48:42
46. brownlie.

Drone.
50

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:53:05
Latest Scottish Polls

Westminster election

TNS System Three - CON 17%, LAB 39%, LDEM 10%, SNP 31%
YouGov - CON 17%, LAB 34%, LDEM 14%, SNP 30%

Scottish Parliament

Constituency vote
TNS System Three - CON 12%, LAB 31%, LDEM 11%, SNP 45%
YouGov - CON 13%, LAB 31%, LDEM 15%, SNP 36%
Scottish Opinion - CON 13%, LAB 33%, LDEM 10%, SNP 40%

Regional Vote
TNS System Three - CON 12%, LAB 29%, LDEM 12%, SNP 41%
YouGov - CON 13%, LAB 28%, LDEM 13%, SNP 37%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/1198
51

Strickland,

Dundee 09/05/2008 06:54:15
Well done Agent Alexander - you're doing a great job.
52

Dooogie,

Highland 09/05/2008 06:55:02
It is worth noting that "No country, having set their foot on the road to Independence has failed to achieve it". Keep the head, give it time - it will happen!! thank God!!
53

steve 1511,

aberdeen 09/05/2008 06:57:28
does wendy the daftie believe the people of scotland will ever vote for her,after yesterdays performance at pmq when she came over as a wee ned, just as her pal jackie BUFFET baillie does, all that is missing is the burberry trackies and hats
54

Bob10,

09/05/2008 06:57:48
40. brownlie.
Amendment on a re-read.

EEJIT.

55

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:58:03
49 Bob10

Far and away your best post of the day. Wit, sensibility and logic all rolled into one. Congratulations!!!
56

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:05:12
53. steve1511.

"does wendy the daftie believe the people of scotland will ever vote for her,after yesterdays performance at pmq "

Actually, it's not pmq it would be fmq, or properly FMQ. Great to see quality SNP support!
57

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:08:27
55. brownlie.

Don't mention it. But thanks anyway.
58

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:11:39
Poor Bob10 spoffing his watery manfat all over the abused keyboard through the night. What time does your shift end at the call centre, Bob?
59

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 09/05/2008 07:13:34
#38 Guga II

Passport says British, birthplace says Glasgow, just because I don't live in Edinburgh does not mean I do not have a valid opinion, or valid UK residency, so voting on the matter will not be a problem, therefore shut yer piehole!

and #40 Brownlie you seem to be completely inept at reading, so if you could take this to yer maw and get her to read this bit and tell you what it means

'
Being neither for nor against it (previously was against it) reading the total and utter bile that you lot write basically turns me against letting you or your like run this country.'

Means I am not a unionist, simply someone who is yet to make there mind up, but would rather have it done by intelligent debate that brings the facts to the3 table rather than the destructive campaign anddevisive policies that the SNP are blatently bringing to the table.

What right does Salmond (or Alexander for that matter) have to bring forward a referendum on Scottish independence when it is done every four years through an election.

1/3 SNP
2/3 THE REST seem pretty obvious to me

AGAIN read it before you brand me a unionist, I am undecided on the matter!

60

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 07:19:49
Something to do with democracy I think.
61

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:20:01
58.Independence? Bring it On!

Drone II.

Thanks. Noted.
62

LondonCalling,

London 09/05/2008 07:21:04
On the day we found out that Londoners contribute 2-3 times more wealth to the UK than Scots and that Scottish people take the longest lunch breaks, might I suggest that G Brown and A darling return north of the border and help Scotland form a new union with France.
63

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:26:22
58. Independence? Bring it On!,
Again on a re-read.

"What time does your shift end at the call centre, Bob?"

Speaks volumes about present day Scotland!!!
64

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:28:17
#62 Fantastic news. We sponge off you and take longer lunches. Brilliant news. Any links to the story.

#61 Dribbling mentalist. Check.

So tell me Bob are you with the Goldfish late shift?
65

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:28:48
62. LondonCalling.

Seriously, tell me you jest!
66

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:34:56
64. Independence? Bring it On!,

A drone masquerading as a clown. Sad.
67

acanthus,

09/05/2008 07:35:50
Wow imagine that, every single Londoner contributing 2-3 times more wealth? Quite an amazing statistic that?

What are the wages in McDonalds and the service sectors you specialise in down there, hotel porters that type of thing?

Musy be nearly £75k a year at those figures?

Presumably that included the figures for places like Tower Hamlets, the biggest slum in Britain with the highest unemployment!
68

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:36:55
Come on Bob, turn that frown upside down.
69

McMillar,

Fife 09/05/2008 07:41:53
It’s not even funny any longer….Wendy clearly needs some professional help. I hope her friends don’t abandon her during this difficult period. I’d suggest she takes a holiday…..3 months or so.
70

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 07:42:51
acanthus (67): "Presumably that included the figures for places like Tower Hamlets, the biggest slum in Britain with the highest unemployment!"

I can't speak for another's statistics, but Tower Hamlets is somewhat anomalous: it really isn't doing badly, in the sense that its white population is either fairly prosperous or retired. However, it is now some 70% Bangladeshi in school-age population (i.e. less than 18), and Bangladeshis have easily the highest unemployment rates of any ethnic group in the UK.
71

brownlie,

09/05/2008 07:42:54
59 Paul

Getting involved in an "intelligent" debate with you would be rather hampered by my apparent inability to read. I would merely point out to you that the SNP have instigated a National Conversation to allow each and every one of us to engage in an intelligent debate over the future of Scotland.

Furthermore they have given a time-frame of around two years in which the electorate can debate the pros and cons of their policies.

Unionists, on the other hand, have concocted a device to stifle debate among the electorate in setting up a Commission/Review with a pro-unionist agenda and comprising appointed members - not one of them democratically elected.

Even this Commission is now compromised in that the largest party - who set up the Commission - are now taking a stance completely at odds with the origin remit, so, presumably the remit will have to change.

Whether the remit is changed or not the over-riding factor remains i.e. neither the electorate nor their representatives will be able to join in an intelligent debate.
72

Non!!,

East Britain 09/05/2008 07:44:12
Good on yer, Wendy. You will go down in history as a folk heroine. Stay with it!!
73

Ubi,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 07:45:25
Labour still don't get it. Devolution had the opposite effect of killing independence "stone dead", as they had hoped and expcted. Their attempts to ensure a referendum is still-born are simply elevating the profile of independence.

Let them waste their time on this, it prevents them doing damage on much else. In the meantime it's obvious that this genie can't be forced back into the bottle by Labour's traditional tactics of graft, coercion and deception. It's time to start planning for the post Labour era.
74

luxpat,

Luxembourg 09/05/2008 07:47:08
Most commentators seem to consider Wendy's "bring it on" statement simply as a miscalculation. However, if you listen to that interview of May 4, you'll note that she starts off by saying that, if she did intend to support a referendum, she "wouldn't announce it on this TV programme". She then proceeds to do just that! In other words, she got carried away and then couldn't retreat. No wonder she's in trouble.
75

acanthus,

09/05/2008 07:50:47
70: Fairfax

I agree although it is fair to point out that when statistics are thrown about referring to Scotland they invariably refer to inner-city Glasgow but are used (rather conveniently) as representative of Scotland as a whole.

The point can be made equally if not more forcefully for parts of England.

76

Bob10,

09/05/2008 07:52:17
71. brownlie.

I am sorry but "intelligent debate" in Scotland borders on being an oxymoron. I can just hear them intelligently debating in the "Bruce Bar" or the "Wallace Arms". C'mon.
77

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 09/05/2008 07:56:39
The Scot's Civil War rages. Fine example on how to run the State(s).
Is there ANY chance that the play group can focus on the issues's that range from the killing our Service people in two WARS to the low wage earners who have had their life recently improved (not).

78

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:01:42
76 Bob10

Excellent post - that cohesive and coherent contribution alone raises the level of intelligent debate onto a higher plane.
79

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:02:08
77. Fenland Farmer.

The Great Wizard Salmondo will solve all these problems at a stroke.
80

yockel,

09/05/2008 08:02:19
Wendy knows Gordo is on his way that is why she is openly defying him. She want's to claim credit on his departure. So just let her help get rid of Gordo but keep our own eyes on the ball of getting rid of her.
81

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:03:26
The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants.

It is, of course, the wrong outcome- as any intelligent person knows.

It is wrong because there is no proof that independence automatically means Scots will be somehow better off. There are too many nations (Burma, Zimbabwe, etc) that show the contrary; and several local nations that are going down the pan (Ireland, Iceland, etc). SNP ignore these examples, of course.
82

paulr,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:03:43
**Brownlie**
Your comments are typical of a middle to southern english prat, or a wannabe english prat.
83

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:04:01
When is this shrieking harridan and her monstrous ego going to realise that she is totally discredited?

However, the longer she and her cheerleaders stay in post the more votes they will generate for the SNP.

Incidentally, where is Hamish? Has he done the decent thing and retired to a back room with a pistol?
84

Bejjy,

09/05/2008 08:05:39
Tick, tock.
85

The wilkman,

Isle of Skye 09/05/2008 08:06:43
52
Dooogie,
Highland 09/05/2008 06:55:02
It is worth noting that "No country, having set their foot on the road to Independence has failed to achieve it". Keep the head, give it time - it will happen!! thank God!!

The bit in inverted comments is historically seriously in error!! Unless there's some circular argument used - like 'well, if it failed to get independence then it wasn't really a country':-)
86

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:07:37
78. brownlie.

Soooo, you have never frequented "The Bruce Bar" or the "Wallace Arms" it would seem. You have never lived life as it was intended to be lived!
87

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:09:56
81. Rulesbutnotrulers.

Spot On!
88

Colkitto,

River Clyde 09/05/2008 08:15:55
Wendy desperatley craves to be the centre of attention.
She is so desperate to land a blow on the SNP she was willing to go to any lengths to do so. Hence the reason she and her Party now find themselves in total disarray. But it's not all down to her.
I believe she is badly advised. People like Whitton, D. McNeil, Jabba Baillie and Jaimieson are second rate politicians who are destroying the Labour Party because of their hatred of Salmond and the SNP.
89

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:20:34
Just to leave brownlie with a glimmer of hope, I am off to have a shower and then slash my wrists. It is unlikely that he/she/she/he will feel really bad about it, but if there is any justice he/she will consider doing likewise! One lives in hope!
90

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:22:08
82 Paulr

On what do you base this hideous allegation? Tha thu uamhasach gorach, amadain!
91

acanthus,

09/05/2008 08:24:50
81:

Referring to Burma and Zimbabwe does little credit to you when referring to Scottish independence.

You know that in drawing paralells with these countries you are making your argument look rather foolish.

But to compare for example Ireland and Iceland (quite why Iceland) with Scotland is totally misleading and you know it.

Norway is a closer example to Scotland, but as i recall they have £200 billion in reserve!

To compare Scotland with Zimbabwe and Burma why not just go all the way and use Bangladesh or Somalia..what an idiotic argument!
92

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:25:13
#89 Shift over Bob?
93

,

09/05/2008 08:25:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:25:34
'The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants.'

The debate is what form an independent Scotland should take. It is vital for all parties who propose a referendum to have a strategy for taking the country beyond the outcome of a yes vote for independent.

The SNP has one, where is Wendy's?
95

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:27:18
Bob10

Of course I would feel bad about any person being harmed - one of the main reasons why I vehemently opposed the murder of innocents in the Iraq invasion.
96

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:29:09
92. Independence? Bring it On!,

I certainly don't intend to shift over and let you close to me! Do you mind!!!!
97

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:31:04
Losing his grip on Scotland.


LOSING HIS GRIP ON REALITY more like!!
98

Bob10,

09/05/2008 08:33:24
95.brownlie.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The conundrum is, which is which?
99

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:38:12
98 Bob10

"Shock and awe" and the indiscrimate raining down of bombs on civilians can be pretty terrifying I should imagine.

Leave your wrists alone - I will cherish and appreciate your opinion of me!!!
100

morris,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:39:11
91

You beat me to it! Thats word for word precisely what I was going to say and of course you are absolutolely spot on.How this idiot thinks he can impress people by using phrases like " already knows what outcome it wants" is a mystery in itself.Of course they know what they want.It says so in the party name for goodness sake.Scottish National Party Get it Doh!
Raison d' etre puts it in a nutshell.

It is of course the wrong outcome as any intelligetnt person knows. hahahahaha

Its the verdict of the people as any democrat with a solitary brain cell would know and does not need explaining to him!
The purpose of any referenda is to measure public opinion. There can be no outcome OTHER THAN THAT WHICH IS CORRECT because the people decide not arrogant individuals .


There is no proof of anything in the future because it aint happened yet!

Intelligent.Clearly there are some who do not recognise his genius ! Thank God !
101

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:39:52
#96 Ha ha well done, Bob. I see what you did there.

You misconstrued my suggestion that the reason you've been able to toil away from 2am to 8.30 am on this forum because you work unsupervised on a late shift in a call centre, to me asking you to get out of a seat.

Priceless, oh for the want of a comma.
Sweet dreams Bobo and remember to tie up the knocker.
102

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 08:40:38
Can anyone tell me where AM2 is? Is he hiding in some bunker or did he chose just the right time to go on holiday?
103

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:44:47
Just heard on Radio Scotland, 2 New Labour Sleaze 'activists' bang on about how Red Wendy was correct in her actions and was strategically brilliant in showing up the SNP and saving the Union!

Should drug testing be compulsory for all 'political activists'???
104

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:47:07
#102 Ken Mac,

AM2 will be resting up before the weekend polling onslaught. You need heaps of rest if you are to juggle numbers and percentages.
105

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:50:56
#91 Acanthus.

I see I have annoyed you simply by noting examples of independent nations that have failed. That is the trouble with nationalists, they note the motes, but ignore the beams.

Obviously no country is exactly the same as Scotland, and Norway certainly isn't, yet you mention it. For example, Norway hunts whales, has penal alcohol and coffee prices and plenty of ice-based hydro electricity.

SNP cannot guarantee a successful Scotland. You may be willing to take a chance, but some of us (many, I hope) are more cautious and want to see the proof first.

I doubt you are a numpty, so why make numpty comments?
106

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:53:33
#105 Poor Rules and his philosophy of fear. I'm afraid for the young minds you terrify in SNP controlled Dundee.
107

Bob M,

09/05/2008 08:53:48
#59 - "What right does Salmond (or Alexander for that matter) have to bring forward a referendum on Scottish independence when it is done every four years through an election"

The parameters of a referendum are different though.
For example, I read recently that between 20 and 30% of Scottish Labour voters would say YES in an independence referendum (this has probably increased after Wendy's actions).
108

BK,

09/05/2008 08:54:44
#20 Wardog, Buckie 09/05/2008 02:44:44

"Brown's Annus Horrilibus?"

Or even Anus Horribilis considering the @rse he's making of it?

109

acanthus,

09/05/2008 08:55:14
103:
We can only assume that Wendy's dose of Prozac really kicked in this week...
110

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 08:59:41
One thing that puzzles me is this: why don't the SNP bring forward a bill tomorrow for a referendum in 2010? That calls Labour's bluff, and makes sure we get the referendum before they change their mind again, but also sticks to the original manifesto timetable. Labour couldn't possibly vote against it without being exposed as cynical charlatans and destroyed in the polls, and it would complete Salmond's victory over a chaotic rabble opposition.
111

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 09:00:01
#81

"There are too many nations (Burma, Zimbabwe, etc) that show the contrary; and several local nations that are going down the pan (Ireland, Iceland, etc). SNP ignore these examples, of course."

Off Course we ignore your comparisons with Burma and Zimbabwe because only a complete retard would consider them as valid comparisons.

As for Ireland going down the pan, well most people whose opinions actually mean something (CEO's of knowledge based companies)continue to move capital out of failing England and into Ireland.

The real sad part is that if we where Independant we could actually be attracting all this capital to move to Scotland.

I guess when you have something exceptionally stupid to say it is worth repeating over and over again, eh rules. Federalism is first choice for spinless w@nkers and retards like Bob10.

112

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:02:08
105:

'Norway hunts whales' ????

Yes you are right it would be completely wrong to compare Scotland and Norways economy especially as they hunt whales and we don't and coffee is expensive!

So we have gone from Zimbabwe to the price of coffee in Norway to demonstrate you arguments have we?


If you swing about any more your big red nose will fall off.
113

John S,

09/05/2008 09:04:27
#105 It depends on what expert you want to believe ?
Adam Smith Institute, Friday, April 27, 2007
The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent, leaving the average Scot many thousands of pounds better off each year. This is the finding of a research Briefing Paper published today by the Adam Smith Institute, the free market economic think tank.
It examines the comparative performance of Scotland and England, finding that from 1992-2004, Scotland’s gross value added grew at 4.7 percent, compared with a UK average of 5.4 percent, giving Scotland only 87 percent of the UK’s growth.
If an independent Scotland chose to follow the Republic of Ireland’s low-tax route, as SNP leader Alex Salmond has indicated it would, Scotland’s growth rate might be expected, over a five-year period, to move closer to Ireland’s trend growth rate of 7 percent. Given a further five years of Scottish growth at that trend level, and before diminishing returns set in, Scotland’s growth over the ten-year period would put its index 71.5 higher, more than a two-thirds increase in GDP.
The rest of the UK would be expected to have grown rather less, by just over a quarter. The result would be dramatic for Scotland. Measured in household income per head, Scotland, which started £1,700 behind the rest of the UK, could be expected to be £6,000 ahead of it at the end of that period.
114

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 09/05/2008 09:10:43
Uncertainty my Butt. the people of Scotland know for certain that a referendum will be held in 2010. The uncertainty lies in wether Whining wendy will still have her job this time next week and if Gordon Brown will still have his. I would place bets GB has told Wendy to be defiant to try and salvage what little teensy weensy credibility she has left. Too late your credibility is oot the windae...
115

John S,

09/05/2008 09:12:36
#105 I forgot to add:
23 Apr 2007 ... Oil price increased to US $ 66/barrel
9 May, 2008 Oil rose to a fresh record near $125/barrel
116

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 09:15:52
KampungHighlander (111): "(CEO's of knowledge based companies)continue to move capital out of failing England and into Ireland."

Here in Cambridge, which I suspect has more knowledge based companies than all of Scotland, none have moved yet. However, several are worried: the key consensus seems to be that our new Scottish prime minister and chancellor are causing the problems, not England.
117

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 09:17:23
Interesting slogan above the Gordon Brown headline.
'How low can you