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1

Angus Ogg,

08/05/2008 23:08:59

Gordon Brown isn't "losing" his grip on Scotland. He quite spectacularly lost that almost precisely one year ago.

What he is now losing is his much vaunted grip on Scottish Labour.

The end is nigh Gordy.

It's time.



isn
2

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 00:03:39

Gordo never had a grip - on anything!
3

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 00:04:24
Another superb day in Scottish politics. It just keeps getting better.

Keep up the good work Red Wendy - You're a darling!!!
4

Senga Jean,

09/05/2008 00:13:33
I feel sad at Wendy's self destruction I now look forward to the fall of that calculating ego on wheels Nicol Stephen. Have ignored him a lot till FMQ's. His question on Burma was sick making advantage taking of tragedy. Where did he want the answer to go? Alex Salmond was brilliant in his multi party inclusive response but what was Nicol's purpose in choosing that question. He is building up a record of taking cynical party advantage over real life. Scoundrel!
5

acanthus,

09/05/2008 00:26:49
I love this:

But the move took colleagues, including the Prime Minister, by surprise. One Labour MP said the general view at Westminster was Ms Alexander had "probably gone mad".

Chairman of Labour F.C Malkie Chisholm commented that her job was safe with full backing from MP's etc etc

Nice to know the back a 'probably mad' woman as Leader in Scotland!
6

,

09/05/2008 01:40:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
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7

,

09/05/2008 01:51:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
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8

TommyKaye,

UK 09/05/2008 01:54:58
Douglas Alexander's No Show

What is it with the Alexander family this week? They seem to be doing their utmost to bring yet further opprobrium on Gordon Brown's ailing administration. Yesterday it was Sister Wendy, today it was Wee Dougie.

The Department for International Development, at which Wee Dougie is part time Secretary of State, applied to Mr Speaker to make a statement on the growing crisis in Burma. Sadly, it seems Wee Dougie forgot all about it, or was busy having urgent discussions of a non Ugandan variety with the Prime Minister. Or was stuck in traffic. Who knows? Anyway, it's the first time MPs can ever remember a Minister failing to show up for a Statement they had requested.
9

Edward,

09/05/2008 01:57:15
It was interesting though not surprising that Des Browne refused repeatedly to be interviewed by Newsnight Scotland. Isnt he supposed to be the Secretary of State for Scotland (Part Time)?
10

Edward,

09/05/2008 02:02:43
" Ms Alexander's supporters denied she was defying Mr Brown. George Foulkes, MSP, said: "There is no split apart from in the minds of journalists."
Now that is funny, as unfortunately with the aid of TV, we are able to see and hear both Wendy Alexander mouth off as well as Gordon Brown contradict and vice versa. We have all witnessed it , we didnt need journalists to tell us as we ALL saw it George, like some slow motion car crash that is Labour
11

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:06:28
#10 Tommy ... remember that wee Dougie has got history in this regard.

When the Wendy donation thing was in full swing tail end of last year, he was scheduled to appear on questiontime. David Dimbelby had to semi-credulously give out his excuse of an unspecified "family illness". I remember the audience giving it big cackles. Wee Dougie had bottled it.

Plenty refernces to the incident on google :-)
12

Edward,

09/05/2008 02:06:37
I would be very interested to know the viewing figures for holyrood.tv on Thursdays.
It (FMQ's) had now become compulsive viewing!
Yesterday we had the spectacle of Wendy trying to be clever and failing badly. Alex Salmond wiped the floor with her and the leaders of the Tories and the Libdem's jumped in as well with heavy critisim of Wendy
13

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:10:12
#12, Edward ... like you, the public are not imbeciles. It's only SLAB MSP's who are able to make sense of it. And how do they do that exactly ?

Doublethink: the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs.

George Orwell was a visionary....
14

Vivas,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:35:13
#16 Bob, that would probably be Wendys best chance to win it. So why would there be there any reason or obligation on the SNP to give Wendy a date that suits *her*, when *their* own manifesto date says 2010, a date that would suit their (and my) best hope for a successful outcome ?

They are the Scottish Nationalist Party, committed to independence. Its their aim to convince enough Scots over time to share that view. And if enough Scots *do* express that in paper by 2010 thats fair enough, isn't it ? Theres absolutely no compulsion for the SNP to alter their date.
15

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 02:39:24
I think the grass roots of New Labours supporters are in reality Nationalists. Perhaps Wendy has actually worked that out and wants Labour in Scotland to begin the transition into a party that wants to be around after Independance. Lets face it, there wont be any of the Westminster MP's moving up here and standing for election. There is little or no chance of any spots coming up for elected former MSP's to make the transition to Westminster.

The Scottish Parliament is going to be the main show, as far as any Scottish Politician is concerned. Better repositioning themselves soon, before Brown is thrown out and the English Labour MP's take over. If that is Wendy's ploy she may actually survive Gordon Brown and his cabal of traitors.
16

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 09/05/2008 02:58:59
I cannot wait untill 4pm each day, that's midnight SCOTLAND, when our latest recruit Wendy produces more support for our ultimate aim of INDEPENDENCE. Alex, one question SIR, is she on the PAYROLL????
17

Edward,

09/05/2008 03:05:24
I wonder what will happen next with Labour in Scotland?
My money is on a split or Wendy resigning on health grounds and to spend more time with her family
Maybe even a combination of both
18

Fanling,

Switzerland 09/05/2008 03:16:21
I am deeply ashamed that Wendy Alexander is in any way politically representative of Scotland. She has been shown up in public too often to be taken as even semi-credible. Her irrational parliamentary outbursts demonstrate her clear inability to hack (always with hysteria) her esteemed foes, Salmond and Sturgeon.

They destroy her over and over with the simple expedient of calm, incisive, intellectual argument, to which she has no counter, because she is basically not very bright. For Labour to survive in Scotland (ha-ha, dream on loonies ...) getting shot of the Alexander liability has to be the first option. That extends to her dozy brother. And Brown in his not so Southern Comfort zone. And Browne, Foulkes, and Darling ... and, and ... Scotland's shame, the lot of them.
19

catgut,

pomona 09/05/2008 04:24:24
looks like we would not be that much worse of if at all
running our own little country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-big-question-what-would-scottish-independence-mean-and-how-would-it-work-824286.html
20

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 04:32:39
Maybe this will make some of the Labour MSP's wake up to themselves and realise that they don't have to be puppets of the London government. They might also realise that they were elected to carry out the will of the people, and not London. Then again, pigs might fly.
21

Fanling,

Switzerland 09/05/2008 04:58:39
#27 Bob10

As in your #16 you are clearly living in cloud-cuckoo land. Whatever planet you inhabit, it is not Planet Reality. Read the signs, smell the actuality.
22

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 09/05/2008 05:06:47
#29 Read the signs, smell the actuality?

Are you on crack or something, the Scottish people (me) have consistently said no to independance. To say it is a foregone conclusion just shows how comepletely arrogant you are, there has never been a poll suggesting we would vote for independance.

All there has been ais a lot fo SNP activists on these boards shouting outof their obviously rumbling bellies.

Being neither for nor against it (previously was against it) reading the total and utter bile that you lot write basically turns me against letting you or your like run this country.

Too many little Scotlanders out there!
23

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 05:17:04
Catgut you beat me to the post on the supposededly INDEPENDANT NEWSPAPER. Absolutely hilarious article, just prooving exactly why we should be off in 2011.

I didnt know whether to laugh or cry when I read Andy McSmiths article. I suppose you call yourself Mc Smith when you want to be anonymous. You know things are going wrong for England when the nutter newspapers start the propaganda rot. Isnt the Independant meant to be a Lib/Dem Supporter, not very Liberal or Democratic either, what a surprise.

With Wendy and London Controlled New Labour breaking away to form an actual Scottish Labour Party, things are getting better for Scottish Patriots everyday. Alex does it again. Never say Never when it comes to the big man. He'll proove them wrong everytime. Even the English on English Media forums are saying they envey the Scots having a great pollie like Alex.
24

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 05:41:26
#31 Paul in Oz, Helensburgh.

As I assume that you're in Helensburgh, N.S.W., I wouldn't worry about it too much if I was you, you won't have a vote on the matter.
25

Pilrig.,

Livingston 09/05/2008 05:48:34
Notice the unusual silence from Lord Foulkes ?
26

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 09/05/2008 06:21:16
"THE rift between Gordon Brown and the Scottish Labour Party deepened last night..."

There is no such beast as the Scottish Labour Party.Gordon Brown, not Wendy Alexander, is the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland. Wendy is not the leader of the Scottish MPs either. She is the leader of the Labour MSPs.

Sloppy journalism by the Scotsman.
27

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:21:33
Bob10

Great posts - we unionists have found that insulting anyone holding views other than our own is the best way to win an argument. It also brings the "don't knows " onto our side.

Paul in Oz?

Sadly, we unionists have been unable to find any "little Scotlanders" amongst the SNP government.

We do find, however, on these threads that a great number of our unionist posters belittle Scotland with out assertions that Scots are not capable of running their own country.

Just to be contrary the silly Nats encourage Scots to take a pride in their country and in their own ability.
28

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:23:42
#31

"the Scottish people (me) have consistently said no to independance."

And when did they have that opportunity?

Well they will in 2010.

29

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:34:16
Bob

"Let's get it clear- the SNP have no rights in the matter. They would be the supplicants and we know how far that would go. They don't set the date."

Oh yes they do. Wendy can't deliver a bill because there is already one scheduled to be brought out in 2010.

"Only the Psychotics are worrying about it."

Like the Unionist ones that living in denial?
Like You Bob?

30

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 06:36:17
"Another Labour MP described the situation as "visceral", adding that David Cairns, the Scotland Office minister, had been going round the Commons with his head in his hands."

Sunshine, happiness all I need to make my morning complete is a blow-job and a lollypop.
31

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:40:59
42 Bob10

Possibly to point out that you do not have the monopoly on pointlessness.
32

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:46:26
The Latest YouGov poll puts the Tories at 49% Labour at 23% and the Libems at 17%.

That would translate into the following

Con 469
Lab 129
LD 24
33

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 06:53:05
Latest Scottish Polls

Westminster election

TNS System Three - CON 17%, LAB 39%, LDEM 10%, SNP 31%
YouGov - CON 17%, LAB 34%, LDEM 14%, SNP 30%

Scottish Parliament

Constituency vote
TNS System Three - CON 12%, LAB 31%, LDEM 11%, SNP 45%
YouGov - CON 13%, LAB 31%, LDEM 15%, SNP 36%
Scottish Opinion - CON 13%, LAB 33%, LDEM 10%, SNP 40%

Regional Vote
TNS System Three - CON 12%, LAB 29%, LDEM 12%, SNP 41%
YouGov - CON 13%, LAB 28%, LDEM 13%, SNP 37%

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/1198
34

Strickland,

Dundee 09/05/2008 06:54:15
Well done Agent Alexander - you're doing a great job.
35

Dooogie,

Highland 09/05/2008 06:55:02
It is worth noting that "No country, having set their foot on the road to Independence has failed to achieve it". Keep the head, give it time - it will happen!! thank God!!
36

steve 1511,

aberdeen 09/05/2008 06:57:28
does wendy the daftie believe the people of scotland will ever vote for her,after yesterdays performance at pmq when she came over as a wee ned, just as her pal jackie BUFFET baillie does, all that is missing is the burberry trackies and hats
37

brownlie,

09/05/2008 06:58:03
49 Bob10

Far and away your best post of the day. Wit, sensibility and logic all rolled into one. Congratulations!!!
38

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:11:39
Poor Bob10 spoffing his watery manfat all over the abused keyboard through the night. What time does your shift end at the call centre, Bob?
39

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 09/05/2008 07:13:34
#38 Guga II

Passport says British, birthplace says Glasgow, just because I don't live in Edinburgh does not mean I do not have a valid opinion, or valid UK residency, so voting on the matter will not be a problem, therefore shut yer piehole!

and #40 Brownlie you seem to be completely inept at reading, so if you could take this to yer maw and get her to read this bit and tell you what it means

'
Being neither for nor against it (previously was against it) reading the total and utter bile that you lot write basically turns me against letting you or your like run this country.'

Means I am not a unionist, simply someone who is yet to make there mind up, but would rather have it done by intelligent debate that brings the facts to the3 table rather than the destructive campaign anddevisive policies that the SNP are blatently bringing to the table.

What right does Salmond (or Alexander for that matter) have to bring forward a referendum on Scottish independence when it is done every four years through an election.

1/3 SNP
2/3 THE REST seem pretty obvious to me

AGAIN read it before you brand me a unionist, I am undecided on the matter!

40

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 07:19:49
Something to do with democracy I think.
41

LondonCalling,

London 09/05/2008 07:21:04
On the day we found out that Londoners contribute 2-3 times more wealth to the UK than Scots and that Scottish people take the longest lunch breaks, might I suggest that G Brown and A darling return north of the border and help Scotland form a new union with France.
42

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:28:17
#62 Fantastic news. We sponge off you and take longer lunches. Brilliant news. Any links to the story.

#61 Dribbling mentalist. Check.

So tell me Bob are you with the Goldfish late shift?
43

acanthus,

09/05/2008 07:35:50
Wow imagine that, every single Londoner contributing 2-3 times more wealth? Quite an amazing statistic that?

What are the wages in McDonalds and the service sectors you specialise in down there, hotel porters that type of thing?

Musy be nearly £75k a year at those figures?

Presumably that included the figures for places like Tower Hamlets, the biggest slum in Britain with the highest unemployment!
44

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 07:36:55
Come on Bob, turn that frown upside down.
45

McMillar,

Fife 09/05/2008 07:41:53
It’s not even funny any longer….Wendy clearly needs some professional help. I hope her friends don’t abandon her during this difficult period. I’d suggest she takes a holiday…..3 months or so.
46

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 07:42:51
acanthus (67): "Presumably that included the figures for places like Tower Hamlets, the biggest slum in Britain with the highest unemployment!"

I can't speak for another's statistics, but Tower Hamlets is somewhat anomalous: it really isn't doing badly, in the sense that its white population is either fairly prosperous or retired. However, it is now some 70% Bangladeshi in school-age population (i.e. less than 18), and Bangladeshis have easily the highest unemployment rates of any ethnic group in the UK.
47

brownlie,

09/05/2008 07:42:54
59 Paul

Getting involved in an "intelligent" debate with you would be rather hampered by my apparent inability to read. I would merely point out to you that the SNP have instigated a National Conversation to allow each and every one of us to engage in an intelligent debate over the future of Scotland.

Furthermore they have given a time-frame of around two years in which the electorate can debate the pros and cons of their policies.

Unionists, on the other hand, have concocted a device to stifle debate among the electorate in setting up a Commission/Review with a pro-unionist agenda and comprising appointed members - not one of them democratically elected.

Even this Commission is now compromised in that the largest party - who set up the Commission - are now taking a stance completely at odds with the origin remit, so, presumably the remit will have to change.

Whether the remit is changed or not the over-riding factor remains i.e. neither the electorate nor their representatives will be able to join in an intelligent debate.
48

Non!!,

East Britain 09/05/2008 07:44:12
Good on yer, Wendy. You will go down in history as a folk heroine. Stay with it!!
49

Ubi,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 07:45:25
Labour still don't get it. Devolution had the opposite effect of killing independence "stone dead", as they had hoped and expcted. Their attempts to ensure a referendum is still-born are simply elevating the profile of independence.

Let them waste their time on this, it prevents them doing damage on much else. In the meantime it's obvious that this genie can't be forced back into the bottle by Labour's traditional tactics of graft, coercion and deception. It's time to start planning for the post Labour era.
50

luxpat,

Luxembourg 09/05/2008 07:47:08
Most commentators seem to consider Wendy's "bring it on" statement simply as a miscalculation. However, if you listen to that interview of May 4, you'll note that she starts off by saying that, if she did intend to support a referendum, she "wouldn't announce it on this TV programme". She then proceeds to do just that! In other words, she got carried away and then couldn't retreat. No wonder she's in trouble.
51

acanthus,

09/05/2008 07:50:47
70: Fairfax

I agree although it is fair to point out that when statistics are thrown about referring to Scotland they invariably refer to inner-city Glasgow but are used (rather conveniently) as representative of Scotland as a whole.

The point can be made equally if not more forcefully for parts of England.

52

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 09/05/2008 07:56:39
The Scot's Civil War rages. Fine example on how to run the State(s).
Is there ANY chance that the play group can focus on the issues's that range from the killing our Service people in two WARS to the low wage earners who have had their life recently improved (not).

53

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:01:42
76 Bob10

Excellent post - that cohesive and coherent contribution alone raises the level of intelligent debate onto a higher plane.
54

yockel,

09/05/2008 08:02:19
Wendy knows Gordo is on his way that is why she is openly defying him. She want's to claim credit on his departure. So just let her help get rid of Gordo but keep our own eyes on the ball of getting rid of her.
55

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:03:26
The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants.

It is, of course, the wrong outcome- as any intelligent person knows.

It is wrong because there is no proof that independence automatically means Scots will be somehow better off. There are too many nations (Burma, Zimbabwe, etc) that show the contrary; and several local nations that are going down the pan (Ireland, Iceland, etc). SNP ignore these examples, of course.
56

paulr,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:03:43
**Brownlie**
Your comments are typical of a middle to southern english prat, or a wannabe english prat.
57

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:04:01
When is this shrieking harridan and her monstrous ego going to realise that she is totally discredited?

However, the longer she and her cheerleaders stay in post the more votes they will generate for the SNP.

Incidentally, where is Hamish? Has he done the decent thing and retired to a back room with a pistol?
58

Bejjy,

09/05/2008 08:05:39
Tick, tock.
59

The wilkman,

Isle of Skye 09/05/2008 08:06:43
52
Dooogie,
Highland 09/05/2008 06:55:02
It is worth noting that "No country, having set their foot on the road to Independence has failed to achieve it". Keep the head, give it time - it will happen!! thank God!!

The bit in inverted comments is historically seriously in error!! Unless there's some circular argument used - like 'well, if it failed to get independence then it wasn't really a country':-)
60

Colkitto,

River Clyde 09/05/2008 08:15:55
Wendy desperatley craves to be the centre of attention.
She is so desperate to land a blow on the SNP she was willing to go to any lengths to do so. Hence the reason she and her Party now find themselves in total disarray. But it's not all down to her.
I believe she is badly advised. People like Whitton, D. McNeil, Jabba Baillie and Jaimieson are second rate politicians who are destroying the Labour Party because of their hatred of Salmond and the SNP.
61

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:22:08
82 Paulr

On what do you base this hideous allegation? Tha thu uamhasach gorach, amadain!
62

acanthus,

09/05/2008 08:24:50
81:

Referring to Burma and Zimbabwe does little credit to you when referring to Scottish independence.

You know that in drawing paralells with these countries you are making your argument look rather foolish.

But to compare for example Ireland and Iceland (quite why Iceland) with Scotland is totally misleading and you know it.

Norway is a closer example to Scotland, but as i recall they have £200 billion in reserve!

To compare Scotland with Zimbabwe and Burma why not just go all the way and use Bangladesh or Somalia..what an idiotic argument!
63

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:25:13
#89 Shift over Bob?
64

,

09/05/2008 08:25:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:25:34
'The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants.'

The debate is what form an independent Scotland should take. It is vital for all parties who propose a referendum to have a strategy for taking the country beyond the outcome of a yes vote for independent.

The SNP has one, where is Wendy's?
66

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:27:18
Bob10

Of course I would feel bad about any person being harmed - one of the main reasons why I vehemently opposed the murder of innocents in the Iraq invasion.
67

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:31:04
Losing his grip on Scotland.


LOSING HIS GRIP ON REALITY more like!!
68

brownlie,

09/05/2008 08:38:12
98 Bob10

"Shock and awe" and the indiscrimate raining down of bombs on civilians can be pretty terrifying I should imagine.

Leave your wrists alone - I will cherish and appreciate your opinion of me!!!
69

morris,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:39:11
91

You beat me to it! Thats word for word precisely what I was going to say and of course you are absolutolely spot on.How this idiot thinks he can impress people by using phrases like " already knows what outcome it wants" is a mystery in itself.Of course they know what they want.It says so in the party name for goodness sake.Scottish National Party Get it Doh!
Raison d' etre puts it in a nutshell.

It is of course the wrong outcome as any intelligetnt person knows. hahahahaha

Its the verdict of the people as any democrat with a solitary brain cell would know and does not need explaining to him!
The purpose of any referenda is to measure public opinion. There can be no outcome OTHER THAN THAT WHICH IS CORRECT because the people decide not arrogant individuals .


There is no proof of anything in the future because it aint happened yet!

Intelligent.Clearly there are some who do not recognise his genius ! Thank God !
70

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:39:52
#96 Ha ha well done, Bob. I see what you did there.

You misconstrued my suggestion that the reason you've been able to toil away from 2am to 8.30 am on this forum because you work unsupervised on a late shift in a call centre, to me asking you to get out of a seat.

Priceless, oh for the want of a comma.
Sweet dreams Bobo and remember to tie up the knocker.
71

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 08:40:38
Can anyone tell me where AM2 is? Is he hiding in some bunker or did he chose just the right time to go on holiday?
72

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:44:47
Just heard on Radio Scotland, 2 New Labour Sleaze 'activists' bang on about how Red Wendy was correct in her actions and was strategically brilliant in showing up the SNP and saving the Union!

Should drug testing be compulsory for all 'political activists'???
73

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:47:07
#102 Ken Mac,

AM2 will be resting up before the weekend polling onslaught. You need heaps of rest if you are to juggle numbers and percentages.
74

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:50:56
#91 Acanthus.

I see I have annoyed you simply by noting examples of independent nations that have failed. That is the trouble with nationalists, they note the motes, but ignore the beams.

Obviously no country is exactly the same as Scotland, and Norway certainly isn't, yet you mention it. For example, Norway hunts whales, has penal alcohol and coffee prices and plenty of ice-based hydro electricity.

SNP cannot guarantee a successful Scotland. You may be willing to take a chance, but some of us (many, I hope) are more cautious and want to see the proof first.

I doubt you are a numpty, so why make numpty comments?
75

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:53:33
#105 Poor Rules and his philosophy of fear. I'm afraid for the young minds you terrify in SNP controlled Dundee.
76

Bob M,

09/05/2008 08:53:48
#59 - "What right does Salmond (or Alexander for that matter) have to bring forward a referendum on Scottish independence when it is done every four years through an election"

The parameters of a referendum are different though.
For example, I read recently that between 20 and 30% of Scottish Labour voters would say YES in an independence referendum (this has probably increased after Wendy's actions).
77

BK,

09/05/2008 08:54:44
#20 Wardog, Buckie 09/05/2008 02:44:44

"Brown's Annus Horrilibus?"

Or even Anus Horribilis considering the @rse he's making of it?

78

acanthus,

09/05/2008 08:55:14
103:
We can only assume that Wendy's dose of Prozac really kicked in this week...
79

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 08:59:41
One thing that puzzles me is this: why don't the SNP bring forward a bill tomorrow for a referendum in 2010? That calls Labour's bluff, and makes sure we get the referendum before they change their mind again, but also sticks to the original manifesto timetable. Labour couldn't possibly vote against it without being exposed as cynical charlatans and destroyed in the polls, and it would complete Salmond's victory over a chaotic rabble opposition.
80

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 09:00:01
#81

"There are too many nations (Burma, Zimbabwe, etc) that show the contrary; and several local nations that are going down the pan (Ireland, Iceland, etc). SNP ignore these examples, of course."

Off Course we ignore your comparisons with Burma and Zimbabwe because only a complete retard would consider them as valid comparisons.

As for Ireland going down the pan, well most people whose opinions actually mean something (CEO's of knowledge based companies)continue to move capital out of failing England and into Ireland.

The real sad part is that if we where Independant we could actually be attracting all this capital to move to Scotland.

I guess when you have something exceptionally stupid to say it is worth repeating over and over again, eh rules. Federalism is first choice for spinless w@nkers and retards like Bob10.

81

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:02:08
105:

'Norway hunts whales' ????

Yes you are right it would be completely wrong to compare Scotland and Norways economy especially as they hunt whales and we don't and coffee is expensive!

So we have gone from Zimbabwe to the price of coffee in Norway to demonstrate you arguments have we?


If you swing about any more your big red nose will fall off.
82

John S,

09/05/2008 09:04:27
#105 It depends on what expert you want to believe ?
Adam Smith Institute, Friday, April 27, 2007
The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent, leaving the average Scot many thousands of pounds better off each year. This is the finding of a research Briefing Paper published today by the Adam Smith Institute, the free market economic think tank.
It examines the comparative performance of Scotland and England, finding that from 1992-2004, Scotland’s gross value added grew at 4.7 percent, compared with a UK average of 5.4 percent, giving Scotland only 87 percent of the UK’s growth.
If an independent Scotland chose to follow the Republic of Ireland’s low-tax route, as SNP leader Alex Salmond has indicated it would, Scotland’s growth rate might be expected, over a five-year period, to move closer to Ireland’s trend growth rate of 7 percent. Given a further five years of Scottish growth at that trend level, and before diminishing returns set in, Scotland’s growth over the ten-year period would put its index 71.5 higher, more than a two-thirds increase in GDP.
The rest of the UK would be expected to have grown rather less, by just over a quarter. The result would be dramatic for Scotland. Measured in household income per head, Scotland, which started £1,700 behind the rest of the UK, could be expected to be £6,000 ahead of it at the end of that period.
83

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 09/05/2008 09:10:43
Uncertainty my Butt. the people of Scotland know for certain that a referendum will be held in 2010. The uncertainty lies in wether Whining wendy will still have her job this time next week and if Gordon Brown will still have his. I would place bets GB has told Wendy to be defiant to try and salvage what little teensy weensy credibility she has left. Too late your credibility is oot the windae...
84

John S,

09/05/2008 09:12:36
#105 I forgot to add:
23 Apr 2007 ... Oil price increased to US $ 66/barrel
9 May, 2008 Oil rose to a fresh record near $125/barrel
85

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 09:15:52
KampungHighlander (111): "(CEO's of knowledge based companies)continue to move capital out of failing England and into Ireland."

Here in Cambridge, which I suspect has more knowledge based companies than all of Scotland, none have moved yet. However, several are worried: the key consensus seems to be that our new Scottish prime minister and chancellor are causing the problems, not England.
86

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 09:17:23
Interesting slogan above the Gordon Brown headline.
'How low can you go'
Much, much lower I think. Sub Prime Minister Brown bottles it yet again.
Once again I'm left wondering, what is Wendy's clever unseen game plan? Once again, it's obvious there isn't one.
Is it a muddle, or a fuddle, or just another puddle in the gutter?
Wendy's face was priceless when Annabel turned on her at FMQs yesterday. How could she not have seen this coming?
87

Alan B,

09/05/2008 09:20:21
Am a bit confused by labours position. Wendy has clearly stated that brown knew in advance and backed wendy. So is she lying or is he.

I get the impression that she has wanted this for a while but could not get his ok. He has then finally said to her to do what she wants, and make the call for a referendum and now he is foundering as he is not sure he should have told her that.

Wendy has made the right decision finally, just should have done it earlier rather than oposing it all yr. Brown has to resign as he is totally clueless.
88

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 09:21:53
John (113): "The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent"

I agree with the Adam Smith Institute; their observation also applies to England. Scotland's biggest problems (and possibly England's also) are its bloated public sector and welfare state, together with the taxes required to fund them. However, although an independent England would be fairly likely to vote to diminish the rapacious state, do you believe that Scots would do so? Scotland has become disillusioned with Labour, but not with the Left -- I'm always struck by this whenever visiting friends and family in Scotland.
89

jdships,

09/05/2008 09:22:03
GB and WA are supposedly honest people elected to look after the best interests of the electorate .
They are failing to do this while also damaging the credibility of politics/politicians more each day they remain ion office.
I do not have one iota of respect for WA and find her a total embarresment.
GB has proved he just hasn't got what it takes to be PM - gaffe after gaffe.


110 says
One thing that puzzles me is this: why don't the SNP bring forward a bill tomorrow for a referendum in 2010?

Spot on IMHO !!!!
90

Nikostratos,

09/05/2008 09:22:11
#103 Jimmy the Pie

Jimmy whats your explanation as a snp activist on Alex saying Independence for Scotland does not mean separation from the U.K


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/08/scotland.labour


"Quite clearly, in the modern world, independence and interdependence are parts of the same coin, parts of the same process … Separation is an antiquated or outdated word in the modern world"

#110

Because the snp are more afraid of loosing personal power and influence as elected msps in devolved government.

Than trying and failing to win a early referendum when all the evidence points to the fact they will most likely fail to convince all the Scottish peoples of their case.

Who can seriously believe if the snp had a commanding lead in the opinion polls (as they claim) for independence they as an opportunist party would fail to grasp their chance....
91

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 09:23:12
#59 paul in Oz.

"....turns me against letting you or your like run this country."

I didn't realise it was up to you as to who was allowed to run this country. You obviously suffer from some sort of magalomaniac complex. I didn't think you could go troppo in NSW.

In any event, we, living in Scotland, are perhaps a bit more knowledgeable than someone like yourself. So stick that in your 4 and 20 pie hole.
92

Mikey,

09/05/2008 09:24:16
It's funny reading the comments of unionists like Bob. Having lost the arguement, they resort to petty name calling and abuse to try and get their non existent point across.

Seriously though, what will Bob and his ilk do when the country votes to become independant? Will they, like their brothers in Norn Irn, settle down for a long war? Or will they scuttle off to London with their tails between their legs? Or perhaps they will work together with the Scottish people to make Scotland a great country to live in?

Personally, I doubt the latter. They are so anti Scottish as to be almost hysterical. I can see them as fifth columnists, trying to hawk their anti Scottish views around the dross of society who will listen. Bob, you and your kind are a cancer in Scottish society. You should be really thankful you live in a democracy.
93

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 09:26:01
Foulkes is insulting our intelligence again. The man is a complete buffoon.
94

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 09:27:14
Did anyone notice the portly slavering eejit, that is Andrew Neill, referring to wee wendy as Wendy McNumpty last night?

95

Steve,

Bo'ness 09/05/2008 09:28:01
110, why should the SNP jump to Labour's cynical tune?
Labour are not in office.
Wendy's purpose in suggesting having it now, is that Labour are plummetting and the SNP are soaring in the polls. It's all about her career!
The SNP should just quietly stick to their manifesto pledge, it gives people time to get used to the idea, and debate it at their leisure.
In doing so, the inevitable Tory government in London will sharpen a few minds come referendum day, which incidentally, Labour have now pledged themselves to support.

96

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 09:29:48
#126 You're not listening to my point. I'm suggesting the SNP bring a bill right now, the contents of that bill being "Have a referendum in 2010", exactly when they want one. It's simply a case of making sure Labour don't change their mind in 18 months time, because who among us thinks Red Wendy will still be their leader by then?
97

Prof,

09/05/2008 09:30:45
Another smokescreen by Alexander. Instead of focussing on how to reduce social divides and make society fairer, Bendy Wendy has now set herself up as the self appointed guardian of the Union.
Pretty well say it all about labour - 60 years of post war failure to correct societies social divides.
"The working class can kiss my ass, I've got the boss's job at last."
98

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 09:31:19
Interesting comment from Brown's spokeman:

"For there to be a legally binding referendum, it would require legislation in the UK parliament."

I'm not sure what "leaglly binding" means in this particular context, but a properly run referendum, approved by the Scottish Parliament, would allow the voice of the people to be heard. In practice no Westminster politician would be able to interfere.
99

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 09:31:19
Interesting comment from Brown's spokeman:

"For there to be a legally binding referendum, it would require legislation in the UK parliament."

I'm not sure what "leaglly binding" means in this particular context, but a properly run referendum, approved by the Scottish Parliament, would allow the voice of the people to be heard. In practice no Westminster politician would be able to interfere.
100

Alan B,

09/05/2008 09:31:39
#81 Rules

"The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants."

U can say that for all the parties. Are any of the unionist parties up for considering independence?

U also say federalism has all the advantages and none of the drawbacks. So based on ur statement above u are incapable of intelligent debate as u know the outcome u want.

Everytime u are challenged about the advantages of federalism u never seem to be able to spell out these advantages and deal with the obvious drawbacks.

First we have a form of federalism. So u really have to specify exactly what u mean. I can understand england needs to work out what it wants in relation to scottsih devolution but, from a scottish perspective i have got to make a guess u are talking about dev max.

The question there to u would be. What powers to u want to have at a uk level? And why?

As i see it if go to dev max u have currency, defence, foreign policy and eu membership left. Again guessing as u never spell out exactly what u want, just hiding behind the loose idea of federalism.

It seems to be me the obvious disadvantages with this are. 1)currency - we would be better in the euro sterling interest rates are poor for scotland over a long period of time.
2)eu membership - it would be better for us to represent ourselves and co-operate with england in the eu over mutually beneficial matters. look at how spain have got a far better fishing deal than scotland.
3)foreign policy - we would be better conducting our own relationships with other countries - the sp already have open some embassies under labour to do this. Trade etc. Global policies are best worked out at an eu level.
4)defence - please give ur reasons?
101

Alan B,

09/05/2008 09:35:05
#connaughtboy

I thought myself when u read the comment about the referendum not being legal binding.

Westmister are already thinking about ways of not abiding by the outcome.
102

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 09:37:44
Whodathunkit! Wendy turns out to be London Labour's nemesis! With her 'Dementor's kiss'. The image of Cairns walking around, head in hands, having lost the will to live is quite revealing. The game's a bogey. They've lost the last roll of the dice.
At least Brown, Cairns, and the 'Xander siblings will all be familiar with the Biblical texts relevant to their pending 'years in the wilderness!
103

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 09:42:40
81 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:03:26
Still talkin keech, then Fed.

But then we all know that you can't even get your 'examples' correct anyway, don't we.

I'm still waiting on your retraction about the total keech you posted yesterday about 'enforced federations'.

But then again, for a not so closet Onionist, such as yourself I wouldn't expect you to admit that yer talkin keech.

I just expect the same owld keech to dribble off your fingertips onto the keyboard, with your usual disregard for the truth.

44 Bob10,09/05/2008 06:35:04 and various other posts


"Well they will in 2010."

Only according to the Gospel of Alex.

It's not documented anywhere else!"

You're not only a joke you're a deluded mentally deranged troll.

For the record pages 8 and 15 of the Scottish National Party Manifesto, are the bits that document that which you purport as being "not documented anywhere else".

The FM actually pointed this out to UUendy yesterday at FMQ's.

I now expect you to retract the erroneous and deceitful misinformation that you have been spouting.

Aye to paraphrase the owld sayin,

"There a lies , damned Lies and Onionists!!"
104

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 09:42:59

#133 Ananurhing

Cairns has got his mind elsewhere.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2026/2424205953_9e266e38c6_o.jpg
105

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 09:47:40
113 John S,09/05/2008 09:04:27

I posted a link to that ASI briefing yesterday, came across it, a while back.

Interesting that this evaluation of an Independent Scotland, comes from a 'right wing' think tank, is it not?



106

Alan B,

09/05/2008 09:48:59
#119 Fairfax

"Scotland's biggest problems ...are its bloated public sector and welfare state, together with the taxes required to fund them. ..Scotland has become disillusioned with Labour, but not with the Left "

I think it is actually abit more complicated. For instance while scotland is alway portray as more left, new labour is in many ways scottish labour John Smith and Gordon Brown being one of the prime architects. So the move to the right by labour has scottish roots.

Socialism is virtually dead in uk politics. I mean proper socialism, where the state owns the means of production, not someone labelling social democracy (managed capitalism) as being socialism.

(I think there things have changed in scotland and i think alot of presumptions made are actually wrong. Scotland has voted labour despite uturns on many things like nuclear both civil and defence.)

Consider also the the snp had a policy of 20% corporation tax and they have been returned as the largest party. They have a policy to cut business rates. They have a policy to stop the mad labour increase in council tax.

To some extent public opinion in scotland has been affected by labour slagging of tory policies and then adopting most of them themselves.

Ireland also does not have particularly low personal taxes but low business taxes.

If u consider even tax breaks for films. Ireland got scottish films such as brave heart and rob roy made there because of tax breaks that scotland had no control over. A tax break like this would not cost scotland much as we do not have many films anyway. Westminster did not want to lose the tax revenue generated from those in london .
107

danielrober,

09/05/2008 09:49:24
Maybe some of the older posters could help answer a question i have.

Is this what happened in 1978, when Labour reforms were stopped by internal politics, throwing the party into 17 years of opposistion?

Just interested because these articles sound like people manouvering for opposition. Lots of external interests, changing long-term views, ending projects, possibly changing parties ect. Still it will all make for lots of interesting documentaries.
108

Liz,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 09:53:37
This headline is misleading, how can Gordon Brown be loosing his grip on Scotland? As an MP representing a Scottish constituancy, if/when Scotland becomes independent Mr Brown will be put on the first train back up here - he will get Scotland all to himself (oh and of course Mr Connery who will of course be on the first flight here to parade around in his kilt for a few hours before disappearing back to whichever exotic location he lives at now.

Labour have become and embarassment (were they ever anything different!?), I just hope Annabel Goldie can bash enough heads together and rally all Unionist MSP's into some form of respectability as Wendy and Nicol do not seem capable.
109

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 09:56:08
#116

The companies I was refering include Shire Pharmacueticals, WPP, Yahoo, etc.

Please, you can't blame Scotland for Gordon Brown. You would not have him as Prime Minister if many people in England had not voted for Labour at the last election.

Whatever way Scotland votes in Westminster elections is usually irrelavent as I expect you will see at the next election.

Which is one of the stronger arguments for leaving. Why be a part of the UK when no matter how unpopular the Tories are you will get Tory governments whenever England decides to vote them in.
110

Alan B,

09/05/2008 10:04:47
#Liz

Goldie like much of tory party in scotland is so far behind the constitutional debate, that they are almost irrelevant.

If goldie had taken a lead and backed a referendum after the snp had won the election last yr, and not taken the silly and undemocratic position of not letting the people choose and putting the issue to be, she would not have been hung out to dry by Wendy.

The tories generally have to get ahead of the game on the consitution. Advocating dev max with fiscal autonomy the lead policy should be the core direction. They should have welcomed the steel commission and made it clear calman was about deliverying a strong scottish parliament not the feeble effort we have. Murdo fraser is the only one for the tories that seems to get it.

Having fiscal autonomy would do 2 things. It would allow the tories to join with the snp in advocating a 20% corporation tax. Rather than the position where the snp are now the party of lower business tax putting the scottish economy first. It would also make it easier for cameron to adopt his policy preventing scottish mps voting on english matters.
111

Miss H,

09/05/2008 10:06:20
139 There are some parallels but it's not actually the same.

In terms of what is happening at UK level I think the parallel with the 1992-97 Tory Government is more apt. They are simply tired and have run out of steam. There is probably a natural cut-off point for any party in government when it all starts to collapse. The same will happen to the SNP if we stay in power for that long.

But the other process going on is the increasingly diverging agendas for Labour north and south of the border and the evolution of devolution. Scottish Labour MPs are quite simply being left behind by their councillor and MSP colleagues and many of them don't like it. It's too late to call a halt though, this is a process which is unstoppable.

112

Truely English,

09/05/2008 10:06:27
Sad to say that the Labour Party both in Westminster and Scotland need to step aside and let the Conservatives into power in order to save our precious Union.

Is it now time to change the name for Scotland to Inglisland as it would have been a number of centuries ago. It also shows just how close our two countries are and have been for many centuries.
113

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/05/2008 10:06:39
Rulesbutnotrulers i think you will find Ireland is still doing rather well, Apart from loseing a long serving prime minister mind you id call that a plus another thing we could copy of them.
114

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 10:08:17
136# Independence?

Dib dib dib! I knew he had a skeleton lurking somewhere! Are these poles to beat him off with?
115

danielrober,

09/05/2008 10:08:20
When this is all over i'll pay at least £50 for Former Prime Minister Browns version of this story. It'll be interesting.
116

Miss H,

09/05/2008 10:09:04
127 That's not a bad idea. You should pass that suggestion on.
117

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:09:47
KampungHighlander (142): "The companies I was refering include Shire Pharmacueticals, WPP, Yahoo, etc."

You could also have added Google to that list. All have given the changing tax conditions in the UK as their primary reason for considering a move: tax changes due to Brown and Darling.

"Please, you can't blame Scotland for Gordon Brown."

He was born, educated, and elected in Scotland. England has yet to have the privilege to vote for him as PM.

"no matter how unpopular the Tories are you will get Tory governments whenever England decides to vote them in."

This is sadly false: whilst I hope we do obtain Tory government here in England, a balance of power might be held by Scottish MPs. To give an obvious counterexample , surely you remember that it was the SNP's decision to cease supporting Labour in 1979 which led to their No-Confidence vote, followed by the end of Union-dominated Britain.

118

Phil C,

09/05/2008 10:12:51
All this stushie about an early referendum is caused by Wendy's wobbly gob. Like many others I'm delighted with her spectacular last-minute U-Turn. Policy is not decided in a week though, and the SNP is sticking to it's promise of introducing a bill for a vote on independence in 2010. I quite like the Rev Campbell's suggestion (#110) of introducing a bill now for 2010 if that's possible. It's going to take till about then in any case for this vitally important issue to be properly presented.

Anyway, if we can all agree that 2010 is the right time, then we just go for that, whether the bill's put forward now or whether we wait till it's feasible. At least Labour & SNP are agreed on a two-option vote and are not too far apart with timings. Everyone could be happy, apart from the undemocratic stragglers who resist a referendum at all costs.
119

Alan B,

09/05/2008 10:13:16
Miss H

If the snp do as #127 suggests then the snp will have broken their manifesto commitment. If they bring the date of the legislation forward they will have not choice but to bring the date of the referendum forward or look silly.

The snp should not rush a referendum it is too important to scotland to win it.
120

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 09/05/2008 10:13:18
Can someone tell me what the benefits of staying in the union (small u) are? Especially as the Labour partyhave completely lost it?

Bendy is probably trying to recruit her 27th press officer as we speak!

Scotland CAN govern itself, what are people afraid of, even now, with the continuing freak show that has become the Labour party??? Even now, people STILL think they are in Scotland's best interests.

I do not, & increasingly more & more people think not either.

eg. thanks to the union, our fishing industry is---where...?
121

Miss H,

09/05/2008 10:13:19
121 It's surely obvious what he was saying?

Independence would allow Scotland to participate as a full and equal partner in all sorts of bodies and forums which we cannot participate in now, from the EU to the UN and numerous others in between.

You could go back to Winnie's old slogan at the Hamilton by-election - Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on.

122

Alan B,

09/05/2008 10:16:14
#150 Fairfax

With the voting system we have in the uk u generally get one party dominating. The only time u would have a scotland influencing anything and holding the balance of power is if england is pretty evenly divided between labour and the tories. Even then the lib dems are more likely to hold the balance than the snp.
123

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 10:16:21
#118 Alan b - I thin your reading of this is the only possible explanation of the situation.

The thing is does she have the balls to stand up to brown on this?
124

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:16:23
Alan B (138): "new labour is in many ways scottish labour John Smith and Gordon Brown being one of the prime architects. So the move to the right by labour has scottish roots."

That's an interesting point. However, I have often heard Scottish (and English) friends on the Left claim that New Labour would never have been so unsocialist had John Smith lived. I can also remember them, not so long ago, praising Brown for being likely to return to Labour roots. Still, since I'm obviously not on the Left myself, you may well be correct.
125

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 10:16:36
~156 * I think
126

,

09/05/2008 10:18:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 10:18:38
#129 In strictly legal terms he is correct but an indictive vote carried out by the Scottish Parliament would in practice be hard to ignore.
128

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:20:58
Alan B (155): "The only time u would have a scotland influencing anything and holding the balance of power is if england is pretty evenly divided between labour and the tories."

Agreed. Of course, I'm hoping for a Tory landslide, but I suspect that it might be much closer come 2010. I have in mind (i) an SNP landslide in Scotland, together with (ii) Labour improvement in England outside the South East. I suspect that the SNP might be more willing to make common cause with the Conservatives than the LibDems, although I agree, of course, that it's purely conjecture.
129

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 10:24:16
160 The Fed
I don't think that's the case at all. In strictly legal terms it would all come down to that old nutmeg of sovereignty. Which as we all know, in Scotland, that rests with the people of Scotland.
130

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:24:52
Fraudulent (159): "he'll do a Tony Bliar and orchestrate another 7/7 attack?"

Oh please! Were the Glasgow airport attacks orchestrated as well? Sadly, we have a substantial Muslim minority who hate us. Fortunately for Scotland, almost all seem to live in England.
131

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 09/05/2008 10:26:23
Last year the SNP put their ideas for running Scotland before the people of Scotland, as did the other parties.

As the SNP's ideas were considered the best by the majority of voters, they got elected.

Amoungst those ideas was the one to have a referendum at a certain time, which we must therefor assume was fine by the electorate, therefor we must also assume,the SNP's manifesto not withstanding, that many, if not most of them have their own reasons for not seeing the need for one earlier.

Given that the SNP government has, since that election, continued to grow in popularity, I think we can also assume that the majority of the people of Scotland are still content to leave it to that time and havn't seen the need to alter their opinions as Wendy Alexander has.

So for the few unionists on here who are still banging on, go argue with the people of Scotland and tell them there wrong as well.
132

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 10:26:46
#161 I want a hung parliament - the SNP have shown that you can still be a strong governemnt without necessarily having a majority. A hung parliamnet would keep the government on their toes. Depending on the coaltion needed to form a government their could be a strong possibility of teh PR debate being moved on if the Lib Dems form part of a governing coalition.
133

danielrober,

09/05/2008 10:27:44
# 144 Miss H

Thanks. In the same way my generation had little real understanding a new labour government in 1997. We also have little understanding of the end of the last Labour government. It's a bit of a black hole that many are trying to fill with 'all sort's of stuff'. Again thanks.
134

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 10:29:58
#162 I am no constitutional expert - I think I am saying that it does not really matter who actually has the legal right to run a referendum - if the Scottish Parliament has a vote that gave an indicatiove majority in favour of independence then Westminster could not ignore it.

I agree with you that sovereignty should lie with the people of Scotland - unfortunately at a UK level sovereignty lies with Parliament not the people.
135

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 10:31:32
#147 Ananurhing

I'm hoping the message is "We wouldn't touch you with a pole."

Poor Farra Cairns, his excitement at meeting the young kilt clad boys can be seen in the tight way he's clenching his left fist. Hopefully he never gave any of them a tour of his special basement.

It can only be a matter of time before politicians start emulating Eamonn Holmes and micturating on children chained to basement radiators.
136

Alan B,

09/05/2008 10:32:07
#157 Fairfax

Brown returning to labour roots like the 10p tax rate :). Brown dominated the economic agenda in blairs time. So from an economic point of view (of right and left) was there a big difference between brown and smith. Under Kinnock it was smith as shadow chancellor and brown as shadow trade and industry. the main reforms of labour took place under Kinnock.

Too a large extent the differences to some extent are presentational. Smith was trying to re-write socialism as a set of values not an economic policy so he could adopt social democracy. Blair went with the presentation of Nu-labour.

Economically what was the difference. The policy of smith was to join the erm and pro europe with the single market. Blair signed up for the social chapter.

Both would have run high tax models of capitalism. The big economic difference i think would be the way taxes were done. Smith would have more likely been honest about raising taxes. Whereas in blairs time it was about hidden taxes and stealth taxes. A typical one being: we will not raise income tax, then in power raising taxes on income.

The differences is more language and also in dealing with public services. I do not think Smith would not have gone down the private route so much in dealing with public services. But from an economic point of view that is somewhat irrelent.
137

Red Tower,

Dunoon 09/05/2008 10:34:05
Salmond is right in saying he is standing by his manifesto pledge i.e to have a referendum in 2010. He also is right in calculating that he has a chance of winning it then.

I don't like frenetic Wendy Alexander but she is the one who has really put forward a wrecking idea i.e. to have a referendum as soon as possible. She knows that there is every chance if such a referendum was held now that Scots would opt, albeit reluctantly, for the status quo.

The one who has proved himself yet again to be devoid of political smarts is Gordon Brown. He should have lept at the idea. He after all has the power to bring forward a referendum virtually immediately. He would have demonstrated that he can act decisively. He could have embarrassed Cameron. The Tory leader would have had to fight on an agenda set by him. As it is Brown just wallows, and wallows and wallows and hopes that something will turn up.

The fate of Labour is in consequence sealed as a result both Nortn and South of the Border.

The future looks bright for Salmond North of the border and Cameron South of it. The latter fills me with horror. Although Labour deserves everything that is coming to it.
138

Anglofile,

09/05/2008 10:38:23
The only thing Gordy B is not losing grip off is his "tool".
139

megz,

glasgow 09/05/2008 10:39:07
i think wendy will be removed shortly and policy will be reverted back to pre-sunday.
140

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 09/05/2008 10:40:37
There was a saying in Fife that they would elect a cabbage as long as it had a Labour sticker on it...Wendy has provided irrefutable proof of that saying.
However, what worries me is that if Scotland ever did get independence, the like of Wendy would eventually rise to the top again...only because the cabbage still had a Labour sticker on it.
141

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 10:43:38
167# The Fed
"I agree with you that sovereignty should lie with the people of Scotland - unfortunately at a UK level sovereignty lies with Parliament not the people"

That's the very nub of the biscuit. As I understand it, for Scotland to make its own sovereign decisions, all that is required is for the Scottish Parliament to meet again in Edinburgh.
That's all done bar Jackie Baillie singing an aria.
142

Senga Jean,

09/05/2008 10:51:01
I repeat that I find this very sad and my friends in the Labour Party are dumbfounded. Their response varies from wishing to kick both Gordon and Wendy out, to transferring their allegiance to the SNP where they see so many of their social concerns being addressed. They even favour Independence now which surprises me but they point to the founders of the Labour Party having such views.
143

Highland Mighty,

09/05/2008 10:53:00
Just popped in to say that, albeit with a small sample, the SNP are again polled with a greatly reduced lead over Labour. They were 11% in front just a few months ago but, again, a poll shows that lead has since been halved.

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/sun%20results%20080508.pdf

By the way, how can you lot not be bored with the same old arguments going round and around in circles?!

It's sunny, people! Get outside into the real world!
144

Prof,

09/05/2008 10:55:33
#175 Despite the bluster of the Westminster parliament, according to the UN charter, European law and Scots law, the right of sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. As a result the English have no say whatsoever in the future of Scotland.
145

,

09/05/2008 10:56:04
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146

John S,

09/05/2008 10:56:20
The SNP could wait until after the next UK GE which must be held on or before 3 June 2010 before any referendum in Scotland plus there are elections to the EU in June 2009.
147

,

09/05/2008 10:56:38
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148

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 11:02:59
170 Red Tower,

Comrade Broon couldn't call a referendum on Scottish Independence without riling the howling masses sooth of the border. He wouldn't allow an EU constitution vote so he could hardly allow one on Scottish matters.

Oh happy days!
149

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:05:25
Prof (177): "the right of sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. As a result the English have no say whatsoever in the future of Scotland."

I really don't think we horrid English desire any say in the future of Scotland: increasing numbers of us are either resigned or keen to see Scotland depart. However, there's a legal point here which you have not addressed: the sovereignty of England and Scotland was merged with the Act of Union itself, with the result that the British Parliament at Westminster is still, ultimately the arbiter. In the same way, were an English Parliament to be reconstructed, it would have to defer to the UK Parliament. In any case, I really don't think you have to worry about this: it would be politically impossible for the UK Parliament to resist a Scottish referendum.
150

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 11:06:19
#176 A sample of 141 people, showing 3% of Scots voting BNP? Wow, you ARE getting desperate. :D
151

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 11:06:50
#170 Either Brown or Alexander has to go - one of them is lying.

My gut instinct tells me it is Brown.
152

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 11:08:31
#182 The point I was making earlier - the decision may legally lie with Westminster but in practice would be made by the Scottish people.
153

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:10:07
Red Tower (170): "I don't like frenetic Wendy Alexander but she is the one who has really put forward a wrecking idea i.e. to have a referendum as soon as possible."

Agreed. It's a desperate gamble, but a rational one. It's really quite difficult for a party with the slogan "It's Time!" to reply "It's not Time yet!". The implicit acceptance is that the SNP believe their chance of achieving independence is relatively poor at present, compared with 2010, since otherwise Alexander's proposal would be welcomed.
154

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:10:54
The Federalist (185): "The point I was making earlier - the decision may legally lie with Westminster but in practice would be made by the Scottish people."

Agreed.
155

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 11:11:52
#181 A referendum on the Treaty is different from one on Scottish independence - it's just that Brown doesn't have the guts to fight the case.

Referenda are fine for issues that are clear-cut and straightforward such as Scottish Independence. On complex issues like the Treaty it is much more difficult. If we are honest I doubt that many here could say what was actually in the Treaty.

That being said, I think it would be better to have a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU - that would be a simple, straightforward question but still allow a debate at different levels of the UK's continued (or not) membership of the EU.
156

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 11:12:02
121 Nikostratos,

I would have thought that someone like yourself would have understood what Alex meant. Scottish independence means Scotland having authority over its own affairs including financial matters. Scotland could still work with the remnants of the UK where there are matters of common interest. The difference would be Scotland would be equal, not subservient as we are at present. You know it makes sense.

157

Liz,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 11:12:09
#181
"Comrade Broon couldn't call a referendum on Scottish Independence without riling the howling masses sooth of the border."

What are you talking about? Howling masses of who? the majority of the the English would be indifferent at best to the thought of Scottish independence, in fact most would probably support it if they thought it might bring an end to the wingeing and moaning that they hear.
158

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 11:12:41
Surprised that Mr AM2 isn't posting here, especially as he's posting elsewhere on the site this morning. I can't understand why he'd abandon posting here leaving the defence of the Union in the hands dribbling mentalists like Highland Mighty. Poor fellow, maybe too much sun.
159

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:13:15
#182 Fairfax

I think there a legal argument that scottish sovereignty lies with the scottish people while englands lies with parliament. When one talks of sovereignty lying with with parliament in the uk it is based i believe on the legal situation in england pre-dating the union.

"it would be politically impossible for the UK Parliament to resist a Scottish referendum"

It could actually get complicated though. what if the result is close? what if there is a very low turnout? Remember westmister ignore the majority position in 79. This was based on a 40% figure and counting the dead.

It has also been raised before that if there is a yes vote then we should have another to make sure that is the right outcome. This could be done under the excuse that the first is only to negotiate independence and the next one will be to have a referendum on the negotiated position.

160

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 11:17:57
#186 Even 2010 may be too soon for the SNP.

I suspect that they have alawys been banking on a referendum for 2010 being rejected by the Scottish Parliament. That would allow them to go into the next Scottish elections with a weapon to attack the unionist parties and gain either a majority of MSPs or (more likely) an increase in the number of MSPs. That would allow them to continue in government and build the case further, perhaps enabling them to bring back referndum proposals for 2011 or 2012 instead.

As you say, Alexander has somewhat thrown a spanner in those plans but to her dismay Gordon Brownn appears to have removed it!!!
161

preddo53,

leeds 09/05/2008 11:18:10
Prof, I as an Englishman do not want any say as to what goes on in Scotland, I would like Scotland to get independence so she could rule herself. I would also like England to be able to rule herself also. If you want to leave the union then go, speak to all your friends and put your point across and hope they agree with you. I am sick of the Laotian question, for lord's sake break away because we down here are sick and tired of you all moaning. The best thing that could happen is for this Scottish mafia who is now decimating England is to go back home where they belong, we've had enough of them down here, and we've had enough of griping Scots. The English didn't ask you to join the union, you asked. So go your own way and we can stay friends and neighbors. Good luck with your quest for a referendum, as we down here sincerely hope you are successful
162

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:19:03
#Liz

"in fact most would probably support it if they thought it might bring an end to the wingeing and moaning that they hear."

Exactly what do they hear. Very little info about scotland actually makes its way south. The national press ignore scotland as do the tv news.

Most english people are geniunely shocked when they hear scotland are considering independence.

i think the poster was saying brown would find it difficult to offer scotland a referedum after having rejected the eu treaty one.
163

karinxxx,

09/05/2008 11:19:04
anyone up for a boycott of the printed editions of the scottish press?
164

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:20:30
#preddo53

"The English didn't ask you to join the union, you asked"

Think u are just on a wind up. Or are u that historically illiterate.
165

brownlie,

09/05/2008 11:21:27
176 Highland

Hi Highland, don't go out in the sun! Us unionists have had enough red faces this week already.
166

Nikostratos,

09/05/2008 11:22:34
#154 miss h

I believe you are being a tad disingenuous there..Independence is separation but Alex doesn't want to say that out loud in case he frightens the horses.
An independent Scotland would surely do as they choose without a second thought for England or any other nation's......That's what self determination is all about.

No Alex's statement is just an attempt to gloss over what pain as well as gain would come from the process towards Independence. Pain some would gladly endure and others would not.


#182

Its is not resiting a referendum which is the problem but perhaps being in control of the procedure......You have seen the variable outcomes to how the question is constructed. Let alone any % of participation to call the result as representative

#196 karinxxx

Karin please don't start that one again...just please don't
167

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:23:51
Alan B (192): "I think there a legal argument that scottish sovereignty lies with the scottish people while englands lies with parliament."

England's lies with the Crown, technically, although the Civil War established that, in practice, the Crown-in-Parliament exercises that sovereignty. My understanding of the 1707 Act is that sovereignty is merged, although I'm obviously not a lawyer: it's certainly an interesting question. I remember discussing this with an American friend, who mentioned that one legal view in the US is that sovereignty resides in the States, rather than in the Federal Government say -- not relevant to us, of course, but an interesting point.

"Remember westmister ignore the majority position in 79."

That's true, but a political price was paid: the bitter memory of that decision is evidence of that. You're correct that it might get difficult, and I should not have been so sanguine.
168

Sedov,

Scotland 09/05/2008 11:31:03
The past failures of New Labour in Scotland has brought about the rise of the Nationalists and their party the SNP. Thus, a bad situation has been made worse and Scotland is more divided today than it has been, certainly in my life time. Independence under the pro-capitalist SNP would be a total disaster for Scotland and only suit the Brian Soutars and his ilk who are already getting their rewards from a grateful Salmond. Independence would do nothing for the working class of Scotland who make up the vast majority of our population. Salmond is hoping that by the time the referendum comes around the LP will be even more unpopular and the Tories who are traditionally hated even more in Scotland will be the power in Westminster. Thus, Salmond does not want an early referndum as this is a risky gambit and that is why Alexander is also prepared to her risk by calling Salmonds bluff and falling out with the mediocre Brown and forcing an earlier referendum. Bring it on - that what I say and I will be voting against independence and arguing for the the coming to power of a real socialist LP - how about it you lefts - can you prevent bourgeois nationalism and a Tory government by supporting a transformed LP or do want to remain carping in the wings and attending your wee sectarian meetings to the sound of wall to wall bagpipe music?
169

brownlie,

09/05/2008 11:32:06
190 Liz

In a trade union capacity I spend a lot of time in England and I don't recognise your scenario concerning the majority of English opinion. Are you sure you are qualified to speak for them?
170

Bejjy,

09/05/2008 11:32:36
#196 karinxxx

You are getting boring, have you nothing better to do? Get a life.
171

Union is Best,

09/05/2008 11:32:39
198. Brownlie - too right! I am ALfred have been alternating between depression and total despair. Did you see this quote on the Swanson article - - One Labour MP says: "The general view is Wendy has probably gone mad"

Who is this fiend who is questioning the sanity of our leader? I think a visit from la Jackie to him is in order.

We Unionists need to regroup. Any thought?
172

,

09/05/2008 11:32:56
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173

Media 1,

cape town 09/05/2008 11:34:47
Wendy, Gordon and Alex all have one thing in common. They are corrupt politicians who are only interested in their own agenda's. None of them care for the average punter, but they do care about people with money who can assist them with their own ideoligies.
Scotland is merely the nation caught in the cross fire of political agenda's and the players dont give a t0ss about the people.
So if you are an SNP supporter who thinks Alex is yer man, think again. He is his OWN man and he will sell you down the river in a flash if he gains from it, as will Gordo and Wendy.
In the end you can only choose the best from a rotten bunch.
174

acanthus,

09/05/2008 11:36:46
Preddo:

Where did you get this nuggett from?

'The English didn't ask you to join the union, you asked'

Staggering just how thick some of these people are!

As for the English i think you will find that English MP's number 533 while Scotland has 59.

The balance of power is and always has been with England!

As for whining...that is rich coming from people like you, read your own post you bonehead!
175

Union is Best,

09/05/2008 11:37:39
206. Media 1 - I see the strategy - we Unionists will regroup, having lost the political plot, by rubbishing all politics! Like it! We will then suggest that Scotland's future can best be settled not by politics, which it is now poainfully clear we are no good at at all, but a by a game of Cluedo or Snakes and Ladder or some such, where we are sure to bet the Nats. Bring it on!
176

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:38:12
Sedov (201): "The past failures of New Labour in Scotland has brought about the rise of the Nationalists and their party the SNP."

There was a heated discussion yesterday in which several SNP members claimed that the SNP was _not_ nationalist. Presumably that's not your view?

"can you prevent bourgeois nationalism and a Tory government by supporting a transformed LP"

I haven't heard the phrase "bourgeois nationalism" since the early 1980s. Do you have Michael Foot's Labour Party as a possible model, or were they merely running dogs of capitalism (or is it paper tigers -- it's difficult to remember since the world demise of communism)?
177

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 11:38:19
Labour in Scotland are only asking themselves the obvious question of what to do the day after independence. When that comes, they would be much better off not being in the position of having opposed and blocked the act that will legitimise independence. Because if they ever want to be a party of government in Scotland again then they have to take part in the foundational moment on the side of the people, whatever the result.
Just because Labour's goose is cooked in England, it doesn't follow in the least that it is cooked in Scotland. It is suicidal for Scottish Labour MPs and MSPs to be cannon fodder now for the flimsy Blairite coalition 'project' in England (the Blair which project) (remember the emotional blackmail used on Scottish voters to get them to vote Labour for years as they are essential to a stable UK Labour majority - that's gone - see last Sunday Herald's opinion piece). Scottish Labour have, structurally, as strong a position among the Scottish electorate as the SNP are now building, which can be maintained if they focus on the stuff that is of interest to Scots, and not constantly engaging in this mind-numbing wooden language that they use to obscure the issues. I hate to admit it, but I feel a bit sorry that Wendy is getting all this stick at the moment, because her call for a referendum is an original and courageous political decision, and a considerable risk on her part. Although I am a massive fan of Nicola Sturgeon (especially at her FMQs last week) the fact that she is now suggesting that Wendy's position is untenable is the biggest backhanded compliment that there is. There is no-one to challenge her for the leadership of the holyrood Labour MSPs who have to support her, and they know that she is right. Now that her policy will settle down and she is not the PMs place woman, she should perform better in future. Loook at how difficult it was for Jack because he couldn't run his own election campaign. I think Wendy has now grasped the opportu
178

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:38:41
#Fairfax

Googled the issue of sovereignty.

"Scottish sovereignty was not subsumed by English sovereignty in 1707. In the case of MacCormick v Lord Advocate 1954 (1953 SC 396), Lord Cooper stated that "The principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law..."

http://www.siliconglen.com/Scotland/19_5.html

Also that soveignty in scotland is with the people seems to have been (re-)interated Claim of Right Act 1689 in scotland.

In england the bill of rights 1689 puts sovereignty in the hands for parliament by limiting the scope of the monarchy.
179

Embra Don,

09/05/2008 11:39:04
Playing catchup today - hence the old reference to:

81
Rulesbutnotrulers,
Yes Ireland is going down the pan - It's nearly back down to our growth rate. I confidently expect they will be clamouring for Westminster rule any day now.
180

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 11:39:13
who will go wendy or gordon its not a if but a when
181

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 11:46:21
Alan B. (211): "Scottish sovereignty was not subsumed by English sovereignty in 1707."

That's extremely interesting.

"In england the bill of rights 1689 puts sovereignty in the hands for parliament"

I believe this is the origin of the Crown-in-Parliament formula. Afterl all, the Bill of Rights specifically refers to the Sovereign. Further, this was not the first limiting of an English monarch: John, Henry III and, of course, Charles I had all seen their limits enlarged, whilst the Commons, since Henry III and Simon de Montfort, is implicitly a check.
182

megz,

glasgow 09/05/2008 11:48:24
#213 thats a tough question at this stage i don't know whether wendy is so sick of being made look a numpty that she is trying desperately to commit political suicide or whether this is really a push to dethrone brown. If it is the former, please put her out of her misery and ours. If it is the latter, then the disloyalty shown by wendy in her part by making brown a liar is despicable. How anyone could trust her after plunging a knife in browns back like that i'll never know.
183

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:49:35
#Sedov

As always u make little sense as u say do not vote for independence as we may get a capitalist economy so lets remain with the uk that is generally assumed to be more capitalist.

Think u would be better joining the ssp or tommy.

Anyway given that in any democracy people quickly see through failed ideologies esposed by the hard left, there only chance is to run a left wing dictatorship. Like cuba and the soviet union.


184

acanthus,

09/05/2008 11:51:28
210: Wee Fifer

Just because Labour's goose is cooked in England, it doesn't follow in the least that it is cooked in Scotland

I think the goose is cooked and stuffed.

Brown gone at the next election and replaced by Milliband and scrambling around in middle England for votes.

Scottish Labour have some serious thinking to do!
185

Embra Don,

09/05/2008 11:53:15
I had previously thought that 2010 would be too early for the SNP, but I'm not so sure any more. With Labour in meltdown, the Westminster parties will be scrambling for survival in "middle England" and the prospect of Lord Wheatcroft taking power with a landslide will cause dismay in Scotland.
186

acanthus,

09/05/2008 11:54:35
Can Labour endure the prospect of 20 years of Conservative rule or will they back independence? Some must be considering the possiblities!
187

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 11:54:45
Be interested to know how SNPers see Scottish politics post independence.

Will they want to keep the Holyrood PR system?

Will the SNP disband post independence? Or will they look to knock out one or more of the other 3 major parties, and if so which? Are they looking to take over from the Fib Dems under another name? (SNP seem closest to them in terms of policy?)

If not why should there room for 4 major parties on the centrist ground?
188

Alan B,

09/05/2008 11:57:45
#acanthus

Or alternatively going down the Heny McLeish route of being semi-autonomous.

It is noticable that scottish labour mps in westmister are more resistant to change that the msps in the sp.

Also the last 3 labour leaders in holyrood have all been for more powers at the sp.

189

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 11:58:09
#215 That is of course if we take Brown at his word. Alan B mentioned earlier that he may have given his tacit blessing and has changed his mind - if that is the case then it is he not Alexander who should be in the firing line.
190

Red Tower,

Dunoon 09/05/2008 11:58:58
#181 The most important thing for Brown at this moment in time is to win one. Politically nothing is more damaging for him now than for him to be seen to be wallowing in a sea of inertia.

As for riling people south of the border he could if he were an adept politician effectively use the "lancing of the boil" argument . He could argue that that which causes instability in one part of the UK causes instability in the rest of it. He could argue that in those parlous times with World economics endangering the very economic survival of the UK, constitional matters such as a sizable part of the UK threatening a breakaway is something that must be countered immediately.

That is how Brown should be thinking but he isn't.The man is completely out of his depth and a very, very poor politician.

What I fear most at the next general election is that a Tory government with a massive majority replaces a New Labour government with a large majority. Given that both have identical political agendas what would be gained?

What we have in Britain is an electoral system that makes a mockery of democracy.
191

Union is Best,

09/05/2008 12:00:33
221. Eh? We have being trying the automaton strategy - it is not working for us.
192

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 12:01:43
-214. I'm sure that is correct. Westminster is a dual parliament and the union is broken automatically if Scottish MPs choose to leave it whther there is a referendum or no. As i have bored people before, technically Northern Ireland is a province of the Dual Parliament, so I think if the dual parliament is broken then the Good Friday agreement also falls and so will precipitate a referendum in Northern Ireland as to where it goes.
193

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 12:03:13
#221 There has been a split between Labour MPs and MSPs ever since the Scottish Parliament was formed. That's not surprising really - many who were part of Labour's nationalist/devolutionist wing have gone onto become MSPs. The hardline unionists did not because they don't even believe in having a Scottish Parliament - so why would they want to be part of a "pretendy parliament" (not my words but those of a certain MP I know)?
194

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:06:08
#220

I think PR will remain. Cannot see that really being an issue. As such that system supports more parties. Cannot see why the snp would disband.

It would really be up to the scottish people how the equilibrium and make up of the scottish parliament forms.

Being cut loose from westmister it really depends what direction the uk parties take. U are probably right that the lib dems would be squashed. Although when people get sick of the snp then the lib dems tends to be the party of choice for the disaffected from labour aswell.

Will the tories start growing again? Scotland could do with a vibrent right of centre party. Will the leftish snpers go to labour, allowing the snp to float to the right?

With pr u can see that parties can grow quickly, like the ssp and the greens and then disappear aswell. The first past the post makes it difficult to challenge the big parties.

I think u really have to consider what the issues will be after independence.

Could u get an anti eu party. What would be the battle-lines over the euro.

Will labour lurch to the left or stay centrist.

195

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 09/05/2008 12:06:13
#5 - you might not be Nicol Stephens biggest fan but make no mistake that Nicol and the LibDems are playing the "long game" here with the nationalists in particular. We don't regard full blown independence as promoted by the SNP as being the best for Scotland and therefore any plans to destroy the structure known as the UK will be opposed as considered to be "in the best interests of Scotland". Popularity constests are all very well but ultimately its our wee nation we are playing political football games with here and thats why the recent shinannigans by the Labour (and to a greater extent the Conservative and UNIONIST party in sooking up to the SNP) is an absolute disgrace.

Let the constitutional commission thoroughly review the options outside full blown separation and report in a fashion that can be clearly understood by the cisitzens of Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Anything else should be opposed and Nicol is quite right to hold a line and indeed his nerve when under attack such as yours in this respect. More power to his elbow I say in his clashes with Salmond and crew! The prize is too precious to be treated with anything other than serious debate.
196

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 12:06:53
217, 219,acanthus, 220 New town resident

217: Do you think that Labour's goose is cooked in Scotland aswell? I think it's a bit premature for that, there's a bit of recovery to do, but this all makes that so much easier.
219: They will back it eventually and Brown will come running back up to Fife to be an MSP.
220: I support the SNP, and 210 is how I see it, but to answer the specific question, I think that the SNP although a coalition of various parts on the spectrum is largely Social Democratic in outlook. personally, as an SNP member, there woudl be no point in having a separate SNP and Labour party after independence. The party system dynamics will change once the constituional issue is resolved. There will be alot of broken hearts and broken careers in a merger, but it will happen. You heard Alex Salmond say it, in general he has had a lot more in common with Labour than with the tories. Sturgeon is a natural social democrat - the big players will come together. After all, the left is where all the votes are in Scotland - why would they want to be the Lib Dems? A few here and there SNPers will jump to the tories and the libdems. (like that religious nutcase SNP MSP from Falkirk somewhere will go to the tories if they would have him).
197

acanthus,

09/05/2008 12:07:37
222:

It was reported that Brown had spoken with her and agreed to her 'plan' and then had, as one labour insider put it, 'bottled it'.
No great surprise really.
198

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:09:23
#222 Federalist
Quote from today herald

"And at Holyrood, there were claims from senior Labour sources that the Prime Minister had indeed agreed to her referendum line but then "bottled it"."
199

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 12:10:16
190 Liz, Edinburgh

The howling masses I was referring to were the anti EU brigade who are desperate to vote down the EU constitution.
200

Geoff,

sa 09/05/2008 12:10:42
Gordon Brown must go as quickly as possible.Even loyal Brownites in the Government surely now realise that his time is up and in order to avoid complete meltdown a new leader is needed urgently. GB and NuLabour are so unpopular now that they poison everything they touch including the Unionist cause in Scotland.
All very depressing
201

acanthus,

09/05/2008 12:10:51
231:

Just how many times has Brown 'bottles it' out of curiosity.

One Election and two referendums by my count!
202

Sedov,

Scotland 09/05/2008 12:12:15
#209 fairfax - whatever spin the SNP put on the nature of their party -they are a pro capitalist party whose policies are very similar to the rest in that they do not challenge the status quo but merely try to make things better by tampering at the edges and sticking the independent scotland label on when they know damn well that there is no such thing as independence under the global economy. they are the part of compromise but will always compromise to suit big business who are their paymasters.
#211 alan B - I am not the least interested in your views and if you had any sense at all would realise that my posts are aimed at the many ex LP supporters who were betrayed by the LP under Blair but have no great faith in the SNP either - so stop reading my posts as you are obviously a died in the wool NAT who has no idea of the nature of the SNP and what they are up to.
203

James.com,

Clifton 09/05/2008 12:13:03
The Tories are being careful to keep the Goldseller in office until the next election, and we should be careful with the Lip(s)
Just a thought, if Westminster decide to hijack the referendum how does that square with the N Ire. Agreement-which made unification a mater for the majority wishes of the people of Northern Ireland?
204

Union is Best,

09/05/2008 12:13:31
234. I believe Brown was here:

http://indianabeer.com/NewsPics2004/News1222GrolschCrash2.jpg
205

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 12:14:37
New town resident:
The voting system could end up being more poportional after independence. It's set up like that at the moment for particular purposes (not sure exactly what they were, does anyone know?), but those purposes will be defunct if there is a radical alteration in the party system. This is why it is daft for things like the Calman commission to not be able to look at the day after.
206

The west awake,

Argyll 09/05/2008 12:17:59
Nikostratos - "An independent Scotland would surely do as they choose without a second thought for England or any other nation's......That's what self determination is all about."

- I agree with half of this. Yes, an Independent Scotland would surely do as (they?) (do you mean we?) choose, - whats the alternative?, doing as someone else wants? But as for "without a thought for other nations", I see no reason to assume the SNP will not act as "good neighbours as opposed to surly tenants" to use a Salmond quote. Their impressive first year of good government and pronouncements regarding relations with other countries can only be interpreted negatively if you are determined to do so.
We Scots are, if nothing else, pragmatists, when you have a neignbour 11 times your size, you need to be an idiot to pick a fight. I don't reckon we are so stupid.

207

Geoff,

sa 09/05/2008 12:19:36
The onlyUnionist in Holyrood talking any sense is Annabel Gouldie"A referendum being decided by the unpopularity of Brown and Alexander" is a real possibility! What could be more important to the Prime Minister of the United kingdom than the INTEGRITY OF HIS COUNTRY!!!!! How ham fisted ,how amateur, how shambolic. I'm taking my hat out the cupboard agin CyberNats and I'm saying that if this man is not gone by the end of June, then i'll eat it with a cheese sauce and nice Nederburg Cabernet.
If he survives then Labour deserve their fate. The tragedy that is forming on the horizon though is the destruction of a proud nation-not merely because the enemy are so well organised but because defenders are incompetent traitors!
I'm angry:(
208

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 12:25:03
235 Sedov.
I have some sympathy with that view of the SNP, but that is exactly what all west European 'social democrat' parties have been doing since thatcherism took hold as an ideology - tampering at the edges nervously is the very definition of west European social democracy now. In the SNP's case they have several good alibis that the others don't have. They are a minority party in a parliament that is largely filled by members who are cowed into submission by the right and "business' etc., but there is little that they (SNP) can do anyway since they are bounded by the limitations of the Scotland act. It doesn't make it any easier when the social democrat party in the parliament (Scottish Labour) labels everything that they do that is progressive "populist". Thier major policy to abolish the council tax is progressive, they don't want PPP, etc. etc. They are limited also by the fact that they need a broad coalition of support for independence, that's why you have new-right americanised fools like Robert Crawford (Ex Scottish Enterprise, getting on the bandwagon. Bt the day before and the day after independence, Scotland is still structurally a socialist country, which is the ultimate constraint on any government, devolved or independent.
209

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:25:36
#Liberal for life

What is the advantage of the union? U talk about the calman commission but the lib dems have come up with their view with the steel commission. what if calman comes up with next to no change. Brown has loaded the "review" with people to agree with him, refusing ur owns parties suggestions as being too nationalist.

Looking at some powers
1)energy- why not devolve it, scotland has always had different polices round electricity. u guys do not support nuclear. what advantage is there to have a uk wide energy policy. Regualtion of electricity transport matters for renewables.
2)law and order: id cards, number of days detention, fire arms. all better controlled in scotland. the sp has so little power at the moment it cannot even decide how many police man go in a police car.
3)fiscal autonomy: would stop all the arguing over barnett and who is subsidising who. And more importantly allow scotland to start tackling its poor economic growth.
4)economic regulation: why could the sp not decide whether to have a super casino or not. ridiculous that the scottish cities had to compete against english ones.
5)transport: why would anyone come up with a structure for trains where by track is controlled by westminster adn trains by the sp. Daft. The sp are funding a structure they may not even believe in.

Lets say u devolve these. U get currency, defence , foreign policy and eu membership as the pulled powers. Why and to what advantage?

Currency: u guys believe in the euro but do not want to create a structure that would allow scotland to join even if it was in our economic benefit to do so.

EU membership:we do not even get as good a deal as spain in fishing. The uk argues and uses alot of political capital in the eu for issues that are more to do with the anti eu attitude in parts of england. eg social chapter. (against something u guys supported).

The lib dems policy seems to be a union at any cost for no benefit.

210

Arfur,

09/05/2008 12:28:27
#81 Rulesbutnotrulers - "(Burma, Zimbabwe, etc) that show the contrary; and several local nations that are going down the pan (Ireland, Iceland, etc). SNP ignore these examples"

Maybe because only a complete thicko would even try to compare these examples to Scotland. However you have been outed as ticko many times so we can blame you.
211

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 12:29:03
Wee Fifer (241):"Scotland is still structurally a socialist country, which is the ultimate constraint on any government"

I can recall similar statements being made about the Conservatives in the late 1970s and early 1980s: that there would be, and could be, no essential change. Fortunately, much changed in the 1980s, and much could change in an independent Scotland: why not emulate Eire rather than Norway?
212

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:33:11
#Sedov

I do not care if u are interested in my views at all. But if u post in a public forum discussing the issues of the day, expect others to expose the silliness of ur posts.

It is interesting that u could make not defence of ur position in a logical argument but decided to throw ur toys out the pram. Arguing that somehow it is wrong to vote independence because scotland could vote for capitalist parties in future elections, while it is almost a certainty we will have capitalist parties running the uk, is clearly absurd.
213

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 12:35:57
Fairfax 244:
Good point - Personally, if I had the choice I would rather live in Norway than Eire. Also politically Scotland is vastly more comparable to Norway than Eire. Ther's not a single similarity apart from "cultural proximity" but from where I am sitting on the East coast the same could be said of Norway.
I'm not convinced that Eire is such a good example to emulate, but I am certain that Norway is an excellent example. Salmond is only talking about Eire as a comparison now because the Norway comparison scares the "business community".
As to the same being said of the conservatives in the 70s and 80s, I'm not sure that New Labour is proof that that was overturned, but it merits reflection.
214

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 12:41:11
#59 Paul

Labour in Westminster have a lower percentage of the vote than the SNP at Holyrood. Does your logic apply to Brown also?
215

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:42:05
#Wee Fifer

It will really depend how people vote after independence, and wether scotland drifts back to the left.

Much will depend also on how well parties perform. If a leftish government gets in and does well the people will probably go along that route. If in scotland a leftish party, delivers higher uneployment then people will turn to the alternatives.

Realistically socialism is dead. And by that i mean the public ownership of the means of production. It will all come down to managed capitalism and what model one wants ranging from Norwegian to Irish or somewhere in the middle.

Even there the only big difference is how much tax u want to take within a capitalist economy.



216

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:44:53
#Wee Fifer

Norwegian corporation tax i believe is 28%. The uk have only reduced its corporation tax to 28% this budget. It is personal taxes that are high in Norway not business taxation.

217

scots-r-tops,

Boness 09/05/2008 12:45:39
At least Bendy has opened up the debate.

If she were to support independence theres no telling where it could lead for her. She could end up being commissioner for Europe... has she thought about that ?

ho ho
218

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 12:45:43
Wee Fifer (246): "Salmond is only talking about Eire as a comparison now because the Norway comparison scares the "business community"."

So in your view, Salmond is a liar, if only by omission. Hmm.
219

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 12:48:03
#81 rules said:

"The SNP can't have an intelligent debate since it already knows which outcome it wants."

Of course, that equally applies to Labour, the Tories, the Libdems, the Greens and Margo!

So are you saying that none of the parties at Holyrood can have an intelligent debate on this because they all know what outcome they want?

Your point seems a bit pointless.
220

Alan B,

09/05/2008 12:49:58
#Fairfax

Salmond talks about all the small european countries outperforming scotland. I read the other day he has some a ranking by which to compare scotland performance that include 7 small european countries including both norway and ireland.
221

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 09/05/2008 12:50:19
#87 Bob10

You really think so? Laughable!
222

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 12:53:57
The upshot of this is it removes the uncertainty over whether the SNP can hold a referendum. The genie's out the bottle. Even serial bottler Brown can't put it back in. There will now be a referendum in 2010.

Brown might not be in office by then, Wendy most certainly won't be, there is no way back for her now, but the majority of Labour MSPs will be. The same ones who have declared support for a referendum.
Mind you I guess doing double U turns is inevitable when you're locked in a downward spiral.
223

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 12:57:54
248 Alan B
I see your point. Election results are unforeseeable, but what you say is based on the idea that Scotland already drifted away from the left. I don't think that it did. 46 Labour MSPs and a good chuck of Lib Dems and SNP MSPs are "centre left". There are alot of left wing SNP voters. I would say that a good 60% of the electorate here are on the left somewhere, i'm not saying that they're all Maoists though :-)
Also, there are vast degrees of difference between how various countries manage capitalism, more than just 1 or 2% shades of difference in income tax and redistribution and public policies.
I don't think that the communist party or the ssp are going to make a comeback though, that's not where I am coming from. But the point you make on the ownership of the means of production - there are a number of crisis and emergency scenarios of a global nature, and related to survival, that are always possible that make public oversight if not ownership of key enterprises possible to envisage. What happens for example if a greedy billionaire owner of an essential 'means of production' mismanages industrial relations and causes an economic crisis - it's not just left up to him, public oversight kicks in and the situation is resolved. The state still holds the economic sovereignty of the people, that has not been ceded. That is why property is regulated by law, it's not an absolute, uncircumscribed right, and it never has been.
224

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/05/2008 12:58:08
Will a conservative westminster goverment allow a referendum? by 2010-2011 we can assume the torys will have been in power a year plus by then and far from popular in scotland ( as if they could get get any more unpopular in scotland)
225

brownlie,

09/05/2008 12:58:28
253 Alan

"An independent Scotland would join an arc of prosperity comprising other affluent small European states"

Quote from Professsor Brian Ashcroft who also favours full-blown independence to mere fiscal autonomy.

Brian Ashcroft is, of course, Mr Wendy Alexander.
226

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 13:00:49
"255 Ananurhing,09/05/2008 12:53:57

Brown might not be in office by then, Wendy most certainly won't be"

I may have agreed with this a month ago but not now. Given today's news about Brown's initial support for a referendum - it is his coat that in now on a shuggly hook not Alexander's.
227

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 13:00:56
"255 Ananurhing,09/05/2008 12:53:57

Brown might not be in office by then, Wendy most certainly won't be"

I may have agreed with this a month ago but not now. Given today's news about Brown's initial support for a referendum - it is his coat that is in now on a shuggly hook not Alexander's.
228

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 13:00:57
"255 Ananurhing,09/05/2008 12:53:57

Brown might not be in office by then, Wendy most certainly won't be"

I may have agreed with this a month ago but not now. Given today's news about Brown's initial support for a referendum - it is his coat that is in now on a shuggly hook not Alexander's.
229

Zedd,

Fife 09/05/2008 13:05:23
Nobody seems to talk about this, but I assume a new Tory government would bolster a pro independance vote. In practise, a lot of Tories wouldn't struggle too hard to hold on to us...........
230

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 13:08:17
Fairfax 251: Well, fortunately for Salmond and myself I am not his spin doctor as I would be getting the sack pronto.
My point relates back to the coaltiion that the SNP is across the spectrum - he uses both examples. As a person on the left I prefer Norway, and it annoys me when he uses Eire. That's all.
Alan B: 249 - I'm not sure what point you are making. The high personal taxation in Norway? Could you elaborate? I'm afraid that I find taxation and all the exceptions and everything really complicated.
Both, the comparators, at the end of the day Salmond is doing his job by looking at how well Scotland is doing as against the others.
231

scots-r-tops,

Boness 09/05/2008 13:09:28
#255

Stop saying wendy wont be around in 2010. her continued fauxpas are helping guarantee independence. She's brilliant.
232

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 13:11:08
261# The Fed

Okay, okay, I heard you the first time!

I'd love it if Wendy stayed, but surely that's not an option. It's hard to imagine her turning Scottish Labour's fortunes around. Everything she touches turns to keech. Her umbilical cord to London has been severed, and now that Goldie and Stevens have rounded on her, she's toast. Yesterday's toast even.
233

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 13:11:12
The Federalist,
I have to agree. It's the first sensible thing she has done. The MSPs will get over their schizophrenia in a little while and see that she's done them a favour. At the moment it is Brown's blushes that they are trying to spare, Wendy is taking it on the chin.
234

megz,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 13:13:01
When it comes to westmister and the tories i find it confusing. Could they really care less about Scotland? So why keep us? Getting rid of Scotland would reduce Labours numbers, so why keep us.

They aren't interested in scotland so they should do what would best benefit them and the english and just say ok booger owf then and have your independence. I know if i were tory thats what i'd do.
235

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 13:16:14
Guess what's being discussed on reporting scotland at 1.25 - a blind guy driving a car, and rangers FC. Is the BBC in Scotland just allergic to politics?
236

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 13:16:48
Norway is the prime example of how well scotland could do but yes you should also take Irelands success into account (albeit that they are subsidised to the tune of 750 million a year minimum)
237

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 13:17:36
And the blind guy driving the car is not Gordon Brown...
238

Bob M,

09/05/2008 13:20:54
#Sedov

Surely a "real socialist Labour party" would have a better chance of coming to power in an independent Scotland?

239

BIG EYE,

Paisley 09/05/2008 13:24:36
262

Don't believe the Tories will be an easy ride. They like Labour down south have been lying about Scotland being subsidised by England.

Now if that was true then Scotland should be looking for a pay off when we get Independence but just watch as the realisation that Scotland's vast wealth is going to be lost to London's Exchequer. Why does nobody ask what will happen to London creditworthiness when good oil Scottish oil and whisky and all the rest will no longer be available to prop it up?
240

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 13:25:24
megz (267): "When it comes to westmister and the tories i find it confusing."

So do some Tories. I'm a semi-detached Tory, but strongly support Scottish secession. As you say, it would reduce Labour's support. As best as I can estimate, any economic effect would be second-order given England's trillion dollar GDP. Further, much of the planet takes the view, in ignorance, that England and Britain are one and the same, so the political risk is acceptable. However, the Tories really are conservative, with a small "c": they will avoid change unless necessary. In this sense, Cameron is much more of a Conservative than Thatcher, who was fairly radical.
241

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 13:30:53
Big Eye (272): "Why does nobody ask what will happen to London creditworthiness when good oil Scottish oil and whisky"

Many English conservatives have, the conclusion being that the effect would be fairly small. England is a trillion pound economy (NOT trillion dollar, as I stated in error in 273!) of 50 million people. Scotland's 5 million people consume much of oil income due to Scotland's bloated public sector and welfare state. Even though oil prices are briefly spiking, if Scotland disappeared tomorrow, then the effect would be of the order of £10 billion per annum loss to England: of the order of 1% of England's GDP.

Why do so many Scots have this desperate wish to believe that, with independence, England will be reduced to humiliated penury? London alone, on conservative estimates, has a larger GDP than Scotland, even allowing a generous oil income.
242

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 13:32:48
#272 fair point yes the uk does get very good credit terms as it has oil to use as a gaurantee, Enland without it would be where? the grangemouth episode was proof of how dependant the uk economy is on scotland,s resources
243

acanthus,

09/05/2008 13:36:08
London has nearly 3 times the population, it would be very strange if it did not have a higher GDP don't you think?

Slightly conservative at £10 billion i think considering analysts are predicting oil to hit $200 a barrel by the end of the year.

That would of course DOUBLE the revenue Scotland would receive from the oil.
244

acanthus,

09/05/2008 13:37:47
274:

'Scotland's 5 million people consume much of oil income due to Scotland's bloated public sector and welfare state'

And what precisely does Westminster spend it on?
245

Donald Norway,

Norway 09/05/2008 13:43:38
I speak as a Norwegian Tax paying Scot and can state tax in Norway for wage earners is about the same as the UK. Here you get tax relief on loans and a tax holiday of 1 month in 12. So all in all its not that different. My tex gets collected and used by my local commune rather than central Government. Scotland should aspire to be like Norway in many respects. Just another thought, I don't get the impression that Norway wants to go back to Swedish or Danish rule!!
246

Angus McIonnach,

Embra 09/05/2008 13:45:21
Reading wall-to-wall nats all enthusiastically agreeing can get boring. One can start to go off the whole idea of independence. But luckily when the small-minded, self-hating unionists arrive and start to contribute their special brand of bigoted negativity to the discussion, that quickly wears off.

Thanks Bob10, rulesbutnot, et al! Keep up the good work!
247

Angus McIonnach,

Embra 09/05/2008 13:47:00
"Why do so many Scots have this desperate wish to believe that, with independence, England will be reduced to humiliated penury?"

We have our fair share of eedjits, unfortunately.
248

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 13:47:33
cmon Donald your talking far too much sense, dont you know Norway has a smaller population than london so therfore cant survive Jeez!!!!
249

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 13:51:25
For months on this board nationalists have said that Scottish Labour takes its orders from Brown and Westminster. Will you now recognise that you were wrong and apologise?
250

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/05/2008 13:56:16
Publius i think you will find the phones between westminster and holyrood are red hot, so equely will you accept that if/when wendy steps down that it is exactly the case? wendy will either back down or be sacked its that simple.
251

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 13:56:16
#255 Ananurhing
You write "The upshot of this is it removes the uncertainty over whether the SNP can hold a referendum. The genie's out the bottle. Even serial bottler Brown can't put it back in. There will now be a referendum in 2010."

Possible but not a cert. If SHP won't support a referendum in 2009, perhaps Scottish Labour won't support one in 2010.
252

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 13:56:57
279 Donald Norway

Do I take it from what you're saying, that local government funds central govt. presumably after taking their agreed set percentage?
Now there's LIT for you!
Also, could you confirm how much Norway's sovereign wealth fund is valued at? You know, the one that can go around the world buying up banks, not bailing them out. To the nearest £100 billion would do please!
253

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:02:34
acanthus (276): "London has nearly 3 times the population, it would be very strange if it did not have a higher GDP don't you think?"

The population depends on the boundary chosen for London, of course, but I agree. My point was that so many Scottish posters seem to revel in the prospect of English poverty after Scottish secession.

"Slightly conservative at £10 billion i think considering analysts are predicting oil to hit $200 a barrel by the end of the year."

My figure is Scottish income, including oil, followed by an estimate of Scotland's public sector and welfare; it's possible I've overestimated the latter, but it is remarkably profligate. Incidentally, the Goldman-Sachs analysts suggesting that oil might hit $200 p/b are also hedging their bets by describing it as a super-spike, so the price might be rather lower if independence is complete in 5 years, say. In any case, what do you think Scotland's income would be without oil?
254

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:05:25
acanthus (277): "And what precisely does Westminster spend it on?"

Fair point. I also want to reduce England's public sector and welfare, of course. We could start by reducing England's incapacity benefit bill of some £10 billion pounds by, say 80%.
255

Ananurhing,

09/05/2008 14:06:47
Publius 285#

The fact that a referendum is needed, has in principle been accepted by Scottish Labour MSPs. They can hardly stop the SNP carrying out one of their main manifesto pledges now, surely. Mind you maintaining credibility doesn't seem to be top of their agenda anymore.

&283# I think we've just seen Wendy taking her first few teetering steps towards being independent. In more ways than one. Don't think she likes it, but like I said, there's no way back for her now!
256

The Strategist,

09/05/2008 14:07:27
#286

Ahhh... Norwegian banks. That's a model worth copying as well.

They're funny old things the Norwegian Banks.. They actually work with their Govt and their industry to improve the Norwegian economy. Quaint eh.
257

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 14:07:29
284 Thistledu
Can someone get sacked who was elected, not appointed? The news this morning is the lowest poll ratings since they began for Labour. I don't think he's in a position to sack anyone. Wendy's position is stronger now, not weaker, for this, that is why the SNP are saying her position is untenable. Perhaps they are no longer sure that she is the liability they thought she was.
258

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 14:08:14
#289 and then do what open soup kitchens?
259

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 14:09:09
#263 Wee Fifer

The problem with all this 'small country' stuff is that there isn't a small country similar enough to Scotland to enable meaningful comparisons to be made. Ireland, Norway, Finland etc all have industrial and social structures that are very different from Scotland.

The only place that comes close is Wallonia (French speaking area of Belgium). Like Scotland Wallonia has struggled to replace heavy industry and coalming. Like Scotland the results have been mixed. Also like Scotland Wallonia has had to cope with the social legacy of heavy industries that have gone.

But even then the parallel with Scotland is not exact. Belgium does have a higher GDP per head than Scotland, but this is almost certainly accounted for by the inclusion of Flanders and Brussels City Region in the overall figure for Belgium.
260

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 14:10:28
289:
Why not lets just increase your tax :-) (and mine for that matter) - I don't see why incapacity benefit is not money well spent.
261

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:10:44
Jackie Priest (288): "More to the point, why to so many English people believe that they subsidise Scotland and are somehow paying for our social infrastructure?"

I suspect that most English people regard Oil as British rather than Scottish: without oil income, the higher spend per capita in Scotland could only come through subsidy.

"How come you've swallowed the lie so readily?"

I was careful to state that, in my view, oil income roughly balanced Scotland's vast public sector and welfare spend, so that any subsidy, in either direction, is small, of the order of 1% of England's GDP (although that's 10% of Scottish GDP). If oil prices stay at current inflated levels, then an independent Scotland would be truly wealthy. However, if it's a spike that disappears within, say, two years, then independence will bring little long-term fiscal change. In any case, Scotland will be highly dependent on the volatile price of oil after secession, so it would be good to reduce the welfare state: think Eire, not Norway.
262

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 14:13:00
sacked was perhaps the wrong use of words though the effect is the same she will be asked to consider her position perhaps, either that or gordon brown is going to admit he has lost control of the very support base that has put him where he is. what do you think is most likely?
263

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:13:23
#Publius

When did Wallonia strike oil? What is there oil fund?

Norway had a similar wealth to scotland in the 70s. Ireland was significantly poorer.

If u had asked any unionist in the 70s. give scotland the union, a goldmine of oil and the scottish industrial economy and then wait 30yrs and then poor ireland will then overtake us and be richer they would have laughed.
264

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:16:09
#Fairfax

The big test for scotland with independence is, can it turn its economy round and match the other small northern euopean nations.

Is norway not cutting the size of the state anyway? I know it has lowered corporation tax.

265

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:16:26
Wee Fifer (295): "I don't see why incapacity benefit is not money well spent."

Some is, and some provision is a moral duty. However, we have allowed a dramatic increase over the last 15 years or so, creating an underclass costing some $12 billion per annum for the UK. That underclass exists because we have, at least implicitly, decided that high unemployment is tolerable, and that it is acceptable to allow high unskilled immigration to depress working class wages. Like Milton Friedman, I don't believe that we can have both a welfare state and unchecked immigration.
266

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:19:10
#Jackie Priest

England (ie its peoples) view of scotlands fiscal position regarding subsidies is due to the media, along with unionist policians in scotland and now english politicians giving misleading statements regarding the sp.
267

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 14:19:45
294:Publius
I can see the comparison with the central belt and Wallonia, but I also see where the negation of the more obvious comparison with Norway is leading. If Flanders is analogous to England (or the south east of England for that matter) and Scotland is analogous to Wallonia, then the Union here is over and done with as it will be shortly in Belgium, because everything there is also reduced to an argument over fiscal transfers to a basket case from a success story (i.e. from Flanders to Wallonia, like it is claimed here from England to Scotland). But that narrative of dependency is what alot of people in Scotland are fed up of hearing lately as it is the only narrative that is used to support the union up here. It's also of questionable validity. Scotland shares some of the post-industrial woes of Wallonia, but dependency isn't one of them. That's why the pressure for separation comes from Scotland in our case, but from Flanders in the Belgian case.
268

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 14:21:03
P.S. to my 294 I can't find bang up-to-date figures for GDP, but every recent figure shows Scotland with a higher GDP per head than Wallonia.
269

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 14:28:17
300:
I accept some of what you say (of course the creation of an underclass - but incapacity benefit is for the disabled, unwell, incapable of working), but I think you exaggerate with cutting a chunk of welfare spending by 80%. And if you are talking about Milton, is it not the case that Milton would have agreed that a free market also includes a free market in labour (therefore migration) and also basically that economies should not be bounded by immigration restriction in order to facilitate that? I'm just asking where one thing squares with the other in your argument. You say that immigration depresses wages. I agree, but then we are talking about jobseekers allowance and housing benefit that plug the hole that the open free labour market post de-industrialisation creates?
270

James.com,

Clifton 09/05/2008 14:29:44
Independence is not an economic arguement. It is about the heart,the soul and pride!
We will never be independent if it becomes a bookeeping exercise.We have to want it more than that if the history of other Nation States is any guide. Where is the joy, the challenge, the excitement?
271

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 14:31:13
#302 Wee Fifer
There are secessionists in both Flanders and Wallonia, but secessionism is much stronger in Flanders than Wallonia.
Belgium, like Canada (in this respect, but unlike Canada in any other), has coped with secessonist movements for 30 or 40 years but so far has not fallen apart.

I concede that Belgium doesn't have oil reserves, but I think you are wrong about 'dependency'. Dependency culture is not a culture of dependency on neighbours. It is a culture of dependency on the state. West Central Scotland has this in spades.
272

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:33:36
#Wee Fifer

"I don't see why incapacity benefit is not money well spent."

For those that need this benefit it is. The issue really is have government just hidden unemploymnet behind this benefit.

The tories allowed many made redundant in the heavy industries to do that if they were over a certain age. It kept down the unemployment figures and the idea of retraining a minor of say 56, meant it was easier to do this.

Labour have gone to town with it in the last 10yrs, with a hugh increase with people on incapacity. Have people become so much iller in the last 10yrs. i think if i can remember the stats if u include those on incapacity unemployment is over 4 million.

i did a quick google and this is an example:

"Official figures out today showed that the 101,300 recorded in 2007 was more than double the 48,700 when Labour came to power in 1997." article was dated 3rd April 2008.

"In 2001, 998,000 incapacity benefit claimants had been off work for five years or more. By February this year, the figure was 1.23 million." The total figure was 2.43 million
(24/10/2007)

"One in ten working age Scots around 300,000 people receive incapacity benefits (IB). Across the UK, the number of people claiming IB has risen four-fold since the 1980s." (9/3/2006)
273

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:36:58
sorry "Official figures out today showed that the 101,300 recorded in 2007 was more than double the 48,700 when Labour came to power in 1997." article was dated 3rd April 2008.

This related to those claiming due to drug and alcohol addiction.
274

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:39:48
#James.com

Different people may want independence for different reasons.

For me the economic argument is important. While i would idealistically want independence i would think twice if the economic arguments were weak. ie why vote for lower living standards and high unemployment.
275

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/05/2008 14:42:00
The crux of the matter is that the staus quo is no longer an option scotland either moves onto a autonomous state within the UK or Independance, English and westminster based politicians only serve to alienate scots and push them towards independance by incorrectly branding scotland as a subsidised hanger on.
The SNP must rub there hands in glee every time the likes of boris johnston spew there rubbish of subsidy etc
276

,

09/05/2008 14:44:04
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277

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 14:47:38
Wee Fifer (304): "is it not the case that Milton would have agreed that a free market also includes a free market in labour"

Generally he did take that view, but was careful to constrain it. The following quote is from the World Libertarian Conference in 1999, although I no longer have a link: "As long as you have a welfare state, I do not believe you can have a unilateral open immigration. I would like to see a world in which you could have open immigration, but stop kidding yourselves."

I should add that my libertarianism baulks at open borders: I simply don't think it's feasible for a wealthy country of 60 million when there are potentially billions willing to come.
278

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:49:10
#311 Duncan in Edinburgh

Reading the quotes from the herald i can see nothing wrong with what the snp said.

"Mr Salmond said that Nationalists would vote with the Conservatives at Westminster after the next General Election if that was in Scotland's interests."

so are they meant to vote against scottish interests to back labour.

"Clearly, if we could use Scotland's position to vastly extend its influence in a balanced parliament at Westminster, I would take up the negotiating position as First Minister of Scotland," said Mr Salmond. "We would judge policies as they came forward from the minority administration of the day and we would seek to extend Scotland's influence."

Why should the snp not be trying to work out how to best put forward a scottish agenda.

At end of the day this is the sad sad labour line. the vote snp get tory would simply not happen as we would be out the union. the case is if u want the tories to govern scotland vote labour at westmister.
279

Alan B,

09/05/2008 14:53:16
#Fairfax

look what happens when u have open borders: u get broon. don't think milton understood the economic damage he could do. :)
280

A Scot in America,

09/05/2008 14:55:28
Point of inquiry: What does the word "red" mean when used in the pejorative as in red Wendy?
281

James.com,

Clifton 09/05/2008 14:58:22
*Alan B
Because the so called standard of living increases in recent years do not seem to improve Quality of Life or happiness. There are intangibles that could accrue from independence that will.
282

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 14:59:38
I agree that Incapacity Benefit has been used by the government to cynically conceal the true levels of unemployment, just like New Deal was used to cynically conceal the true levels of long-term unemployment. But to relieve the underlying conditions that have created this situation - namely, millions of poor people so pressured, persecuted, tormented and trapped by the DWP that they crumble under the stress - is going to take a radical programme of economic policy change that none of the parties are offering anything close to.

New Labour basically mortgaged the future of the country to win the votes of Middle England, and the credit crunch is kicking in on their loans...
283

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 15:00:00
Alan B. (314): "don't think milton understood the economic damage he could do. :)"

I emphasize that I don't support open borders, except for fairly similar economies -- so Holland and France are fine, but not vastly poorer nations for which unchecked immigration rapidly becomes, effectively, mass colonization.
284

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 15:03:26
#315 It's a sarcastic reference to her sudden announcements that Labour were socialist again.
285

Alan B,

09/05/2008 15:03:26
#James.com

Not doubting it. I just think that different people want independence for different reasons. Economics plays its part. So does the right having a government making decision on ur behave rather than a government totally unrepresentative as happened under the tories.

Consider would we really want another economy like that in the 80s with people losing jobs. What quality of life did that bring?


286

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 15:09:36
Wee Fifer (304): "You say that immigration depresses wages. I agree, but then we are talking about jobseekers allowance and housing benefit that plug the hole that the open free labour market post de-industrialisation creates?"

I certainly don't believe in an open free labour market. I would support movement between similar economies, such as the EU before its recent enlargement, but not furthermore, except for the very highly skilled. As I stated earlier, that results in unchecked colonization, not managed migration.

In our own case, we have set welfare benefits in such a way that the incentive to undertake unskilled work is poor (or even negative!), since the latter's reward has already been depressed by mass immigration. In such a situation welfare numbers must increase, since continued mass immigration acts to further depress wages: our immigration policy has acted to increase the large numbers of unemployed caused by the ending of inefficient nationalized industry. Since mass immigration has had relatively little effect on our GDP per capita (since only a relatively small minority are highly skilled and working in high-level jobs), and since the consequent infrastructure costs are growing rapidly, something must break fairly soon: either welfare or immigration must be reduced by the state.
287

Sedov,

Scotland 09/05/2008 15:15:28
It was well before the elections last year that I described the SNP as being the Tartan tories -not a new phrase but one that was not common at that time and I was slated by everyone,even non nationalists. Over the past few months an increasing number of posters have used this phrase to describe their analysis of the emerging nature of the SNP. I think that in general Scottish people are now beginning to understand what the SNP stand for - and its leanings toward Tory ideals with the independent label stuck on to try and appear different. The games up SNP youv'e been sussed and what are you going to do about the 1000's of jobs now being lost because of the tory policies of new labour? - nought because they are powerless to stop the bosses! what you don't own you cannot control it is as simple as that.

#241 fifer - Scotland has leaning towards socialist ideals no doubt about that - but its not socialist now nor is the Scottish Labour Party. ( unfortunately)

#271 bob - not got the time to go into the national question and self determination but just to say that the two stage theory of nationalism first then socialism has been a disaster in russia ( after Lenin) china, Cuba, Vietnam etc etc and was discredited by Lenin who has written the definitive analysis of nationalism which everyone should read. the SSP etc, who, loke the lefts in theSSP have abondoned theory for populism will never understand that but I will explain more later if you wish
288

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 15:16:20
Just who is entitled to vote in any independence referendum?

Plenty of residents in Scotland are just temporary here; plenty of abroad Scots are similarly temporary there. (See, on line for free, some Times correspondence on this).

If the UK is breaking up why shouldn't the rest of UK be allowed to have its say on this as we all will be affected.

I think the Nats would be wise to allow only Nats to vote; that way they might get a higher support of Scottish adults than last time (ie 15%).

Another way to sort those eligible would be to ask them to spell the I word correctly.

Of course, everyone can vote were we to decide about a federal system to replace the union. So much more grown up.
289

Alan B,

09/05/2008 15:17:10
#321 Fairfax

In england part of the problem, i would say, is it is over populated.
290

,

09/05/2008 15:18:46
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291

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 15:19:50
we can debate GDP per capita or per head to our hearts content but we are ducking the issue of the crisis Scotland/UK faces in the event of a conservative goverment in westminster.
292

,

09/05/2008 15:22:54
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293

Alan B,

09/05/2008 15:24:12
#Thistledhu

Is that not one of the reason the snp want a referendum after the next general election?
294

Thistledhu,

Fife 09/05/2008 15:27:42
#328 and wendy wants one before the genearl election there is a definite trend there yes
295

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 15:31:00
#321 "we have set welfare benefits in such a way that the incentive to undertake unskilled work is poor (or even negative!), since the latter's reward has already been depressed by mass immigration."


The first part of your assertion is true, but the second one isn't. Low wages aren't the problem, the problem is that those at marginal earnings levels are permitted to keep just an obscene £5 per week of any earnings before losing all the rest out of their benefits. That means that if your job is a 50p bus ride away, you're immediately WORSE off working a full-time 40-hour week than you would be sat on your backside in front of daytime TV.

The £5 rule is a disgusting throwback to the days of Thatcherism and Norman Tebbit telling people to get on their bikes, and as long as it remains the incentive for the unemployed to find work will be non-existent. Work does NOT pay, and sadly too many kneejerk Daily Mail-reading idiots see that and come to the conclusion that the stick (cutting benefits, persecuting the poor even more) rather than the carrot is the solution, not realising that this simply drives people onto Incapacity Benefit, which costs the country MORE.

Most unemployed people DO want to work - life on benefits is a miserable penny-pinching grind - but who'd work 40 hours a week for nothing?
296

Thistledhu,

09/05/2008 15:34:35
going on then a scenario where an early referendum that comes out as a no vote, causes a vote of no confidence in holyrood followed by labour sneaking back into power in holyrood just before the torys romp into goverment in westminster giveing labour an enclave to lick its wounds plausible?
297

Edward,

09/05/2008 15:35:33
#311 Duncan
Did you actually read the article????
If you had you would have read what Alex Salmond ACTUALLY said!
Just in case you missed it - 'Clearly, if we could use Scotland's position to vastly extend its influence in a balanced parliament at Westminster, I would take up the negotiating position as First Minister of Scotland," said Mr Salmond. "We would judge policies as they came forward from the minority administration of the day and we would seek to extend Scotland's influence."
Note that Alex Salmond is stating that he will negotiate and work with WHATEVER minority government is in power after the next general election, so that could either be a minority tory or minority labour government. Itas all about using what he has in the way of SNP MP's to extrend Scotland's influence.
Or is it that you read Conservative where its states minority government??
298

Brian M,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 15:39:46
But Alex is not standing down from his Westminster job at the next election, so he could not negotiate at all, and certainly not as First Minister of Scotland
299

Brian M,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 15:40:50
But is Alex not standing down from his Westminster job at the next election, so he could not negotiate at all, and certainly not as First Minister of Scotland
300

Alan B,

09/05/2008 15:46:11
#Rev. S. Campbell

So what would be ur solution?

Not quite sure i under ur point that low wages are not the problem. A larger wage would give a greater differential between social security and what u would earn would surely be the an incentive to work.

"Most unemployed people DO want to work - life on benefits is a miserable penny-pinching grind "

life on a low wage would be a miserable penny-pinching grind.

The statement about most unemployed people would like to work needs clarified. Yes that may be strickly true but at what wage and what type of job?

The other fact is there are lots of jobs over the last decade and many decent paying job. The big issue is the skills gap. The gap meaning that locals cannot or are unable to pick up these decent jobs.

The issue is we all have opportunity through the educational system and job market it depends on who takes these opportunities. Who makes themselves employable.

Given decent health and an average brain, u get what u put in.

301

Edward,

09/05/2008 15:47:04
#327
Well you should actually undertand that Scotland contributes more into the UK treasury than it gets out. So therefore it does follow that in reality it doesnt need England as England does not provide any financial help to Scotland
You should not believe everything thats in the press
Like an article in today's Independent about why Scotland could no be Independent. It was funny as it cited that the current oil revenues for all of the current fields is around £ 18 billion per year. Not much I grant you for a population of 65 million, but for a country with 5 million population not to bad.
But what made me smile was the little slip up during the Grangemouth strike, when they had to close the Forties pipeline and we were told by someone from the OIl industry that this would cost the UK £ 50 million a day!, quick maths means that equates to £ 18.25 billion a year, which is about the figure for all the fields, except this is only from ONE field. we were told that this represented just under a third of all fields so quick maths again and we have now got a figure of £ 54.75 BILLION and thats CURRENT fields at current prices. Oil and Gas is an ongoing thing, its not stopped in Scotland, with exploration fields and new technolgy being used in new blocks in the Moray firth, North sea and Atlantic shelf
And in case your wondering about the gas fields of Gt Yarmouth and Morcambe bay, these are NOT included in these figures!
302

Alan B,

09/05/2008 15:49:16
#Brian M

Not sure what ur point is. The issue is if the next election between labour and the tories is close with the smaller parties holding the balance of power. If say the snp return a decent number of seats in scotland then they could negotiate to advance what they believe is to the benefit of scotland.

303

Luke Skywalker,

Edinburgh, United Kingdom 09/05/2008 15:49:33
Edward, theoretically you are correct. However, the other party which will support the killing of this country is the English National Party aka the Tories so the practicality of the situation is that Salmond will be more likely to force his policy on us with the help of the ENP.
304

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 09/05/2008 15:50:44
Unionism has given Scotland
1 a 25%-30%(at least) LOSS of living standards
2 caused a population exodus,note the amount of ex-pat posters
3 caused a Scottish "Brain drain",note the amount of well educated ex-pat

posters
4 caused english people to look at Scots as "subsidy junkies" where the FACTS

seem to point the other way
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/trueoilwealth.html
http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/myth1995.html
5 caused the Scots to blame the english for OUR problems ,instead of giving us

the tools to deal with the problems ourselves.
6 caused loss of business investment ,as business rates are set according to

the souths' needs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/198830.stm
All very OBVIOUS EFFECTS of the unwanted ,forced marrige of "the union" . It

was not wanted then ,its not wanted now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707
I could go on.....

If you want UNIONISM ,that is the PRICE you must pay. I think its a complete

rip off!

So what exactly is the benefit of the union?
Defence ? - well Scotland is stuck in 2 ILLEGAL wars right now ,thanks to the

union. So NO it makes us LESS SAFE and wastes billions in pounds and caused

untold slaughter and misery and creates MORE TERRORISM .D'AH
Standard of Living ? - NO ,as I said we are 25% to 30% ,at least, WORSE OFF

thanks to the union. So what's that about higher/tartan taxes?!?!
Trade ?- NO, as has been demonstrated business rates are set for the south of

england even if it means unemployment in the north.It causes UNEMPLOYMENT!!

EVERY Business Analyst I work with,and I work with a lot, thinks Scotland would

be financially BETTER OFF INDEPENDENT . Despite what AM2 says,i have always

found his economic arguements either niave or just decietful , The Adam Smith

Institute and his beloved Whitehall both disagree with him ,from both the left

and the right.
View from the LEFT
"LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whi
305

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000miles from Earth's core 09/05/2008 15:52:45
EVERY Business Analyst I work with,and I work with a lot, thinks Scotland would

be financially BETTER OFF INDEPENDENT . Despite what AM2 says,i have always

found his economic arguements either niave or just decietful , The Adam Smith

Institute and his beloved Whitehall both disagree with him ,from both the left

and the right.
View from the LEFT
"LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whitehall dossier 30 years ago of the

powerful case for Scotland becoming independent with booming oil revenues, but

the information was kept confidential by Harold Wilson's government to keep

nationalism at bay.
The dossier, most of which was written by a leading government economist in

1974 and 1975, sets out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest

currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the

same way as Switzerland.
It argued Scotland could quickly become one of Europe's strongest economies

with "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses."

View from the RIGHT
"Adam Smith Institute, Friday, April 27, 2007
The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent,

leaving the average Scot many thousands of pounds better off each year. This is

the finding of a research Briefing Paper published today by the Adam Smith

Institute, the free market economic think tank."

and finally do you think that Holland , Finland , Austria , Denmark, Luxemburg

etc. would give up thier soverignty to Germany or Russia? What about the Czech

Republic ,Slovakia ,Slovenia , Croatia , Bosnia , Estonia , Latvia , Lithuania

etc . etc etc. have they all realised what a big stupid mistake they have made

by becoming independent soverign countries. I think the best a unionist could

do for a come back was talk about Bavaria in the 19th Century ...I think that

says alot about the mind set of unionists, HELLO guys its the 21st Century.

Sorry for the rant and maybe a bit
306

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 15:57:26
Edward (336): "we were told by someone from the OIl industry that this would cost the UK £ 50 million a day!"

That's the total cost to the economy, not the lost revenue to the UK Treasury, if I recall correctly: oil isn't nationalised, but oil companies pay a substantial tax for exploitation. As I mentioned above, if oil stays at its current high price, then an independent Scotland will be very wealthy. However, if it declines after 2-3 years, then the oil income will roughly balance Scotland's rather large welfare system and public sector.
307

scots-r-tops,

Boness 09/05/2008 16:01:03
# 327

as an englishman in scotland do you think you should have a say in whether scotland is independent ?
308

Edward,

09/05/2008 16:03:17
The next general election can happen at any time between now and May 2011
Gordon Brown is well aware that there is no way that if he were to win , he would not have an overall majority. So it would be the smaller parties that would have the whip hand, such as the SNP, which if they managed to return at least 20 mp's would make a difference and make it uncomfortable for Gordon Brown (this is on the premis of course that he is actually re-elected). So what best for Labour is to try and spoil the standing that the SNP have in Scotland. Remember the words used by Wendy Alexander, it was about 'harrying the Scottish executive' this is a phrase thats been used before by Labour (curiously even on certain forums). The emphasis is attack the Scottish Government at all costs. Ignoring the fact that we are talking about the democratically elected government of Scotland. This is not just being effective opposition (which they are not) its about attacking and abusing democracy. The latest episode is an example of this where Wendy Alexander now presses for a referendum now only for political ends and not for the country. Labour claim that Brown and Alexander had discussed this 9 months ago. I think this is correct Brown put her up to this, on the basis that if Labour done poorly in the English local elections, seh was to start 'harrying' the SNP and try and make them jump for an earlier referendum. Brown denied this in Westminster as he thinks that he can get away by toting a different story in London. If I were the leaders of the Tories or the Libdems, I would be thinking of ditching the Calman commission as it looks more and more of a sham set up by Labour, especially as Brown and Alexander were plotting 9 months ago about trying another tactic.
309

Alan B,

09/05/2008 16:04:24
#Fairfax

Scotland should not rely on oil but it its some added bonus that countries like ireland do not have.

Scotland really needs to start growing its economy. Tried to move to a more high skilled, high wage economy. To a large extend being part of the union meant scotland was a branch economy.

The government attitude would be, put the head quarters in london and the manufacturing plant in scotland. (Labour are nowhere near as bad as the tories were about that.)
310

Alan B,

09/05/2008 16:06:12
#Edward think it is May 2010 the last date. the last elections were 97, 2001, 2005. Normally a government would go for the 4yr term 2009 but with him doing badly if he lasts in the job he will take it to 2010.
311

The Strategist,

09/05/2008 16:06:13
The simple fact of no longer being under the malign and suffocating influence of the Treasury and the City would have a huge impact on the Scottish economy.

312

Edward,

09/05/2008 16:07:32
#341 Fairfax
The laws of diminshing returns dictate that the price will never ever go down to levels of 2 years ago
They may go down by a few dollars, but thats it
The only way the price of oil will drop is if there were massive oil finds all over the place.
What will happen in reality is that oil prices will peg along at curent level, with slight variations, kept by continuing finds
313

Edward,

09/05/2008 16:11:35
#345
Sorry, your right, got mixed up with the Scottish Elections
So yes this fits neatly into what Brown is trying to do
Disenfranchise the SNP by having Wendy push for a referendum in 2009, with the hope that there would be a majority for NO, voters then deciding to switch back to the Labour party and save Labours bacon in May 2010
314

Alan B,

09/05/2008 16:12:12
#Edward

That depends on opec. They are restricting supply and running a high oil price.

i think u are right oil prices will stay high due to demand from developing countries like china and india.

The big curve ball is what if the economies move away from being so oil dependent. A bit of political will and reasonable technological advances and in 10yrs time who knows.
315

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 16:19:06
The Strategist (345): "The simple fact of no longer being under the malign and suffocating influence of the Treasury and the City"

Are you proposing constructing a new Scottish stock exchange post-independence? It's worth remembering that the capitalization of the London Stock Exchange companies exceeds the capitalization of all other European exchanges combined. To create yet another exchange might therefore be a disadvantage.
316

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 16:20:35
Edward (347): "The laws of diminshing returns dictate that the price will never ever go down to levels of 2 years ago"

You may well be correct, but commodity prices are notoriously volatile.
317

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 16:22:51
#311 Duncan in Edinburgh

Were you hoping that nobody would be bothered following your link?

Working class Scots who voted Labour did not do it so they could extend the PFI rip-off, engage in illegal wars or use our money to prop up amoral and incompetent bankers.
318

scots-r-tops,

Boness 09/05/2008 16:24:18
Scotland has:

Self sufficiency in oil, coal, gas, clean water,

We have, modern infrastaructure, roads, rail, airports, sea terminals.

We have renewable energy sorces such as wind, wave, hydro.

We have industries like energy, tourism, whisky, banking and financial services, high tech, software development.

We dont suffer from natural disasters, such as floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes.

We dont have overcrowding and immigration issues.

Our population is in relatively good health, well educated and trained.

Our sportsmen are magnificent.

There are many independent successful countries in the world without a fraction of these attributes.

An independent Scotland would be the envy of the world. You can see the English envy already, griping about us having free prescriptions, free care of elderly, free university etc etc.

Bring it on.


319

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 16:24:51
#335

A number of years ago in Canada they were toying with the idea of a guaranteed miinimum income as a way of revamping their social programs.

The idea of the program is to provide a simplified Guaranteed Minimum Income that could be used as a cornerstone for all other social programs. Whether the person was out of the workforce to, Care for a Child or Elderly Parent or was unemployed or over the age at which employment was an option. The Level would be set at the poverty line and would be geared to inflation.

Example: Say the Minimum Level was 5,000 and the tax rate was set at 20%
An Unemployed Person Would receive 5,000 - 20% in Tax for an income of 4,000
Someone in an apprenticeship would receive 5,000 + Employment income of 5,000 for a total of 10,000 - 20% in Tax for an after tax income of 8,000
A person in full time employment would receive 5,000 + Employment Income of 20,000 for a total of 25,000 - 20% for after tax income of 20,000 making them Tax Neutral.
People earning more than 20,000 in employment income would be net tax payers.
To be eligible for the supplement you would have to be:
• In Full Time Employment.
• Staying home to Care for a child under two
• Looking for Full Time Work in an active program.
• In a Training Program
• Disabled
• Retired (over 65)
• In part time employment of twenty hours per week. (if over 50)
• Attending College or University Full Time
• In an apprenticeship program
• Caring for a family member who is ill or infirm.
• Working as an unpaid volunteer a minimum of 20 hours a week.

320

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 16:28:54
#351 Fairfax

Here are some words of wisdom from AM2 on the matter:

AM2,Glasgow 11/04/2007 18:57:40

"I wonder if you're aware of BP chairman Lord Browne's opinion on the long term oil price? From $62 dollars a barrel now, he's on the record saying he expects perhaps $25 to $30 to be the longer term trend."


321

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 16:30:43
Scots-r-tops (353): "You can see the English envy already, griping about us having free prescriptions, free care of elderly, free university etc etc."

Let's assume that's correct, and that Scotland continues to prosper as an oil-rich EU member post-independence. The disparity in income you posit will lead to large English immigration which will, under EU law, be unlimited. There is no reason why millions of English citizens should not relocate if Scotland truly became the envy of the world: wealth attracts predators. What's your view?
322

allan58,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 16:35:32
Here's something else to consider #62.

London has twice the population of Scotland. Therefore, it also contributes twice the load of s*** to the UK!

323

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 16:36:02
#335 "Not quite sure i under ur point that low wages are not the problem. A larger wage would give a greater differential between social security and what u would earn would surely be the an incentive to work."

Not really. The total absence of rent controls, combined with rocketing utility costs, means that simply putting a roof over your head and paying the bills requires something well above the minimum wage. (This is especiallly true for single childless people, who have almost no chance of qualifying for Working Tax Credits.) Few of the unemployed can expect to walk straight into a job paying significantly over the minimum wage - they need a halfway house, where they can work to build both skills and confidence, yet still stay alive in the meantime.

The solution, without costing the taxpayer a single penny extra, is so easy even Wendy Alexander could think of it - instead of basing benefit clawbacks on a fixed sum from 1974, unemployment benefit claimants have to demonstrate what their reasonable monthly outgoings are (ie rent and bills and food etc, not Sky TV and fags). They are then allowed to freely earn money on top of their benefits, WITHOUT having any of it confiscated by the government until they've reached that base "survival" figure.

That way, almost ANY work will make the unemployed better off, and encourage them to keep working. And it's a lot easier to find a better job if you're already working.

At the moment, becoming unemployed puts you in the jaws of a deadly trap, whereby the longer you stay unemployed the more impossible it becomes to get out. Allowing people to actually improve their lives by working is the way to get them back into being net contributers to society.
324

cgrant,

tyler 09/05/2008 16:37:21
#25 & #354
Maybe You Should look at Norway.
This is a country of about the same statistics in everything, including population and Petrolium reserves.
Look at their standard of living and you see what Scotland could have if she were independant.

325

Brian M,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 16:38:34
#337 Alan B, the point is that Alex would not be a member of parliament and could not "take up the negotiating position as First Minister of Scotland" - even in the background.

I'm sure the English parties would love to have a member of a foreign government trying to pull their strings
326

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 16:38:42
#354 What you're talking about is the eminently sensible idea of a Citizen's Income. More information about the concept, along with some figures, can be found on this website:

http://www.citizensincome.org/
327

Alan B,

09/05/2008 16:39:59
#KampungHighlander

Interesting idea. Depends on the cost. Is it similar in some ways to broons family credit?

Personally i would not go down that route. As i see if u are able to work u should not be able to turn down jobs. Moving the income tax allowance up would mean that people at the low end would keep more of their income.

I think we would have to really do an analysis of why people are not working rather than guessing and maybe look at the causes.

With thatcher i think we created a culture of unemployment. It should be made easier to get and job then claim unemployment again.

We also have to really take training and mentoring seriously. Look at childcare. I was shocked at how expensive it is.
328

scots-r-tops,

Boness 09/05/2008 16:43:36
# Fairfax

I don't think it will be too much of a problem as the weather here is too cold and damp for most other races.

Its our secret weapon :)

That aside, the doubters often tell us one of our weaknesses is low population, so presumably an influx will do us no harm at all.
329

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 16:44:15
Alan B (352): "Look at childcare. I was shocked at how expensive it is."

I was too -- it's not much less than private education. However, why is this so? Why haven't childcare companies proliferated, given the obvious demand, pushing down the price through competition?
330

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 16:45:58
#335 Almost forgot, the other point about the absence of rent controls, exacerbated by the boom in buy-to-let driving up rents, is that expenditure on Housing Benefit is also very high. So working has to not only pay more than the pittance of Job Seeker's Allowance, but also more than Housing Benefit, which is likely to be hundreds of pounds a month. That immediately destroys any benefit of doing part-time work, which can be a major step on the road to full-time employment, and is a desirable aim in itself in terms of keeping people active and positive.
331

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 16:47:47
#362 "Personally i would not go down that route. As i see if u are able to work u should not be able to turn down jobs."

Yeah, and let's bring back workhouses while we're at it! Make the poor into slaves! That'll get this country back on its feet!
332

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 16:48:42
#353

We do have natural disasters - Wendy, The Labour Party, all their hangers-on and apologists including Scotsman journalists.
333

Alan B,

09/05/2008 16:50:19
#Fairfax

Think it is government regulations to some extent. At young ages u are only allowed something 3 kids per person.

Government could also give these places tax breaks to keep cost lower.

It was something £8,000 a yr when the wee man started nursery. Made worse by the fact u have to pay even if he does not attend. Take him on holiday for 2 weeks u still have to pay. Not much choice as it is beside her work.





334

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 16:52:17
scots-r-tops (363): "the weather here is too cold and damp for most other races."

It's not really much different from much of England.

"one of our weaknesses is low population"

Perhaps so. However, consider one possible future: suppose Scotland in 2018 is 40% English immigrants (it's currently 10%): that's a population transfer of some 2.5 million people from England to Scotland, at roughly the same number per year at which Poles have come to England since 2004 [It's also equal to the increase in the English ethnic minority population from 1991 until 2001]. What would be the Scottish view then?
335

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 16:59:16
Low population is not a "weakness", it's a major factor in superior quality of life.
336

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:00:21
#Rev. S. Campbell

Is that not what we have a mininum wage for?

Noone is talking about slaves. Why do u think that if offered a job paying minimun wage people should be able to turn it down. While others accept it and try to work up.

Lets face it when most of us start working we earn crap money. U then can try to work ur way up the wage scale.

The best way to skill urself is in a job. By learning in one job u jump to the next and then again.

I talked about taking skills seriously through training. Why do we not?

Look how much plumbers and other trades can get. Why is it so difficult to get one and why are they all so busy.

In a previous job i had they took on 5 people for a project. I was the only local. None of us had much experience in the line of work before starting the job. But they could not get locals in glasgow. One from wales and one from leeds. And they were decent roles.
337

Edward,

09/05/2008 17:01:54
#355
Lord Brown, now former chairman of BP....
sadly these prices in 2004 will never happen again
338

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 17:02:05
Rev.S.Campbell (371): "Low population is not a "weakness", it's a major factor in superior quality of life."

Agreed. What, then, is your view of my hypothetic future Scotland, attracting millions of English immigrants with its wealth? Perhaps even the beauties of Somerset will fail to detract them . . .
339

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 17:05:06
Alan B (372): "Look how much plumbers and other trades can get. Why is it so difficult to get one and why are they all so busy."

I think this has been a consequence of our housing boom. Presumably prices will reduce fairly quickly as this bubble deflates.
340

shivago8,

livingston 09/05/2008 17:08:53
VG DAY
VJ DAY
VE DAY Cant wait come on Scotland the brave.
Biggesr event since world war 2
341

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:09:01
#372 The minimum wage is a sick joke - it covers nowhere near the real cost of living. And good luck getting business to accept doubling it, which is what it would take for it to make a significant difference to the economic situation with regard to unemployment.
342

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:12:28
#372 "The best way to skill urself is in a job. By learning in one job u jump to the next and then again."

I agree totally. But you can't expect people already living in grotesque poverty to take work that makes them WORSE off, in the vague hope that it might lead them to a better job. You have to make working pay. ANYONE who works 40 hours a week, at ANY job, should be rewarded with a living wage, that is the most utterly fundamental basic principle of any decent society. But what we have at the moment is nowhere near that.
343

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:14:07
#Fairfax

Or it could be due to lack of supply. Last time i had an electrician was quoted £30 an hr. Yes the will be peaks when the property market is boyant. But it does not detract that there is a mismatch between supply and many low paid workers.

Anyway that was an example. My other example is IT. this boom has gone on for 15yrs but still there is skills gaps. Companies find they cannot get the skills they want.

Why do the government no take skills seriously? They talk about it but no real action to skill those in jobs wanting to move to more skilled areas.

344

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:18:36
#Rev. S. Campbell

I am not disagreeing.

Do u consider the minimum wage - "grotesque poverty".

I just think we need to use other mechanisms rather than always relying on the tax system.

To me tax should be focused on those in ill health (incapacity benefit and the nhs), pensions and skills and training.

Is it not sensible to raise the level at which income tax is paid?
345

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:22:16
#383 What I was describing as "grotesque poverty" was surviving on benefits, which is more often than not a sub-survival income leading to a debt spiral. But minimum wage, in many parts of the country, is much the same. In most cities, certainly here South of the border, a full-time minimum wage job (barely £10K a year before deductions, about £8K a year after) won't come anywhere near covering the rent and bills on a small one-bedroom flat, or even a bedsit.
346

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:25:03
#Rev. S. Campbell

Lets say u have a min wage of £6 an hr. Working 50wks a yr that would make 12,000 a yr.

Is the problem not at the moment that income tax at 20% will kick in at 5,000.

That means that they will have a income tax bill of £1,400. U then add national insurance. (Not sure how that effects at that wage.) I know it is about 11%. Add in council tax etc.

347

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:25:38
http://www.findaproperty.com/displaystory.aspx?edid=00&salerent=1&storyid=21963

Average rents in England now over £1000 a month, or £12K a year. Add rocketing fuel, water and food bills onto that and you're looking at another £4K plus. Already, even TWO people sharing, both on minimum wage, are barely making ends meet.
348

haggis 10,

The Capital City of Scotland 09/05/2008 17:26:06
Remember the song "What a Parcel of Rouges in a Nation " I think Quisling would be an apt name for Wendy Alexander . ready to sell out their country for a few Bawbees Not someone to lead the Liebour Parti in North Britain Fancy cockin a snoot at New Stalin Watch out Wendy the Secret Service will be on your case presently, Charge Sedition!!!!!!!!
349

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 17:26:14
382 you're a warm beer swilling morris dancer xenophobe, obvioulsy, since you seem to be dealing only in social stereotypes.
350

G G ,

09/05/2008 17:27:10
What do the politicians actually do to justify their salary apart from providng entertainment..
351

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:28:40
#385 You can juggle the numbers around any way you want. Either the minimum wage needs to rise drastically, or tax needs to be cut massively, or allowances need to be trebled, or rents need to be controlled, or whatever. The point is, working a full-time job at the current minimum wage doesn't pay anything LIKE a living wage.

And the secondary point is that even a full-time minimum-wage job won't leave most benefit claimants any better off, because the government snatches back all but £5 of what they earn.
352

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:32:34
#Rev. S. Campbell

I agree the property prices and rent have become a big problem. Much bigger down south from ur figures. And also much harder to deal with. England being so crowded in comparison.

High property prices here should be dealt with by more supply.

Last time i rented a flat myself in glasgow was about 250 a month (about 7yrs ago). decent enough area.

part of the problem with a national minimum wage is it obvious much more expensive in certain areas.

353

karinxxx,

09/05/2008 17:34:42
323 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 15:16:20
Just who is entitled to vote in any independence referendum?

Plenty of residents in Scotland are just temporary here; plenty of abroad Scots are similarly temporary there. (See, on line for free, some Times correspondence on this).

If the UK is breaking up why shouldn't the rest of UK be allowed to have its say on this as we all will be affected.

I think the Nats would be wise to allow only Nats to vote; that way they might get a higher support of Scottish adults than last time (ie 15%).

Another way to sort those eligible would be to ask them to spell the I word correctly.

Of course, everyone can vote were we to decide about a federal system to replace the union. So much more grown up.


WELL I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO TAKE THAT UP WITH GORDON BROWN RULES BECAUSE HE QUITE CLEARLY SAID THE OTHER DAY THAT A REFERENDUM WAS A MATTER FOR THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT AND SCOTLAND TO DECIDE......
354

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 17:35:38
#154 Miss H

"Independence would allow Scotland to participate as a full and equal partner in all sorts of bodies and forums which we cannot participate in now, from the EU to the UN and numerous others in between."

While I was scrolling through the board an English colleague was looking over my shoulder. He pointed out that at the European Council the UK was represented by a Scottish Head of Government (Brown), the UK's hard foreign policy - wars - were led by a Scot (Browne) and the UK's soft foreign policy - aid - was dobe another Scot (Douglas Alexander). He said that even an independent Scotland couldn't be much more Scottish than this.
355

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:43:27
#394 If you live in the SE then the AVERAGE rent is now almost £1400 a month. If you're lucky enough to have somewhere nice that's a lot less than that, bully for you. As for where my info came from, try actually following the link I posted, you halfwit.
356

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 17:43:32
342 scots-r-tops

You asked #327 whether "as an englishman in scotland do you think you should have a say in whether scotland is independent ?"

I don't see why not. As a Scot in England I won't have a say! Until this year I was on the Girvan electoral register, but my ma did not register me last September. She threw out her toyboy last summer, so he's not on the register any more. When she threw the toyboy out she got a council tax rebate for being a single occupant. If I was still on the register some bureaucratic busybusy might compare the register with the council tax return and ma would lose her rebate.

357

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:44:50
#Publius

Do u think scotland is well represented in the eu by being of the uk?

Look at fishing where spain got a much better deal. If scotland interests are the same as englands then the uk will push for that. If scotland are different we do what england wants and pushes their interest to the detriment of our own. This is due the fact we are much smaller.

Also look at the big areas of contention for the uk in the eu. Social chapter uk argued for an opt out, then after using all that political capital opted in. Scotland rightly or wrongly would have opted in straight away and picked it time to argue from something meaningful.

As a partner in the eu. England is quite eurosceptic, as such it does us little benefit. If it were france one of the dominent members of the eu that we had a union with the argument for a union might hold more water.
358

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 17:46:40
#398 Man, I really wish SNP haters would make their minds up. Welfare-state Socialist Workers Party Marxists, or Tartan Tories? Get your story straight.
359

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:50:28
#396 Rev. S. Campbell
"If you live in the SE then the AVERAGE rent is now almost £1400 a month"

do not know about averages. but has a quick look in rightmove for renting and u can get 3 bedroom houses in the south east for £750 per month

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-rent/south-east/bedfordshire.html?page=40
360

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 17:50:29
390 Rev. S. Campbell

You're right about low pay not being enough to live on. One of our office cleaners says that because of the ten per cent change her net pay fell in April by over eight pounds - and that was with a pay rise!

I don't see how she manages at all.
361

Alan B,

09/05/2008 17:55:28
#happy english

Averages can be misleading. It is the price of a flat to rent that matters not the average cost of renting as u will have some places that will be so high and scew the figures.

I looked at london and the first property was 25,000 a week (more than 100,000 a month).

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-rent/london/central-london.html
362

kimba,

09/05/2008 17:56:20
Gordon Brown may well be,but David Cameron will not1
363

voltaire's janny,

09/05/2008 17:56:29
393

And there you have the point. The origin of those Brits including the latest Jingling Gordy is of no import other than to the UK state and its governmen.

The notion of Independence for Scotland recognises a cohesion among those who live in this little piece of Britain that is geographically, and therefore economically, different and has different needs to the milder, more fertile, populous bit to to south east of us.

Our farming, forestry, resources, fishing and peculiar population distribution are best managed locally , more or less congruent to the turf that ancient peoples and their wars established to be Scotland until the big bribe. For a time our interests and England's marched in step through industry and empire, but now they don't. I think so and more and more agree.

The Nations of England, Scotland, Ireland and irretrievably embedded Wales are not immutable but they unequivocally exist.

There is in the stereotypes, some truth. Scotland stands for work for worth, man's a man for a' that. Disdain for station and respect for ambition effort and achievement. When the war generation is deid we'll be against Monarchy.

In an independent Scotland, I for one will be just as happy if the London Jocks make there beds there, the Scottish PM or president is called Wyroslawski, Hakinen or Singh, just so long as they are born here, settled here, liek it here and know why salt and sauce becomes salt and vinegar at Harthill.
364

Alan B,

09/05/2008 18:00:48
why was #403 removed
365

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 18:04:22
#401 "do not know about averages. but has a quick look in rightmove for renting and u can get 3 bedroom houses in the south east for £750 per month"

The nature of averages is that some places will be below the average, and some above. But the average is the average.

What's beyond any reasonable dispute is that a full-time job at minimum wage is NOT a living income in much of this country, and certainly not in the cities, where tens of millions of people live.

What's also beyond dispute is that for most people, even a full-time minimum-wage job would not increase their income significantly - if at all - compared to being unemployed receiving Jobseeker's Allowance and Housing Benefit.

So it's hardly surprising that there's limited motivation to work 40 hours a week for effectively no money at all. FORCING people to do so - turning them into slaves, because what else do you call working at a job you don't want to do for no money? - is not a civilised response.

A civilised response is to build a society where people who work full-time get a living wage in return. That we are not in that situation, particularly after over a decade of a supposed Labour government, is an obscenity.
366

english nabob,

the south east of england (kent near maidstone) 09/05/2008 18:07:06
#394#396

I can confirm the " AVERAGE rent is now almost £1400 a month." is a complete and utter lie. Why he said it who knows.
367

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 18:08:28
#411 I posted the link to my source. Take it up with them.
368

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:08:29
GUYS, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RENT,it's about gordy losing his grip on scotland!
369

voltaire's janny,

09/05/2008 18:10:10
398 Jade the Obtuse.

Not all nationalists are in the SNP. Many, self included, like and admire the accomplishments of wee Eck and his Government wrested so expertly as it was, with a plurality of 1, from those whose tenure deluded them as completely as any junta.

As long as he can deliver he has my vote. I'm also old enough to have a wee thing for Nicola, but that's my problem.

When we are independent, I'll not be aligned with many current SNP policies. But then there will be all new parties - maybe as many as 10-15 until the left to right continuum throws up a smaller grouping. Maybe I'll find myself right of a centre that is not yet known. My corner of such fields will though, forever not be England. In such circumstances, with no witnesses I can see myself supporting England at cricket, English fitba' teams in Europe though never in a world cup.
370

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 09/05/2008 18:11:10
#413 It's about Gordon Brown losing his grip on the entire UK, by failing in the most basic task of a Labour Prime Minister - creating a fairer and better society for everyone, not just the already-rich. His constant clinging to the introduction of the minimum wage as proof of his "socialist" credentials just shows how out-of-touch he is with the realities faced by the working class and the poor.
371

,

09/05/2008 18:14:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
372

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 18:16:00
Back to Brown losing his grip on Scotland. Intersting YouGov poll today.

The figures for voting intentions for Westminster in Scotland are Con 21 per cent; Lab 26; LibDem 13; SNP 32; others 8.

Even allowing for reservations - may be a freak poll; only 153 respondents in Scotland - this is a very interesting poll.

373

,

09/05/2008 18:16:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
374

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 18:23:37
421 still a wee oik and a clipe
375

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:27:41
422. SUGGEST YOU MODERATE YOUR LANGUAGE, you have already had a post removed.
376

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 18:31:54
423 what oik and clipe, what's wrong with them, light hearted and discriptive? funny how some other more offensive statements have been left in place, but then again tolerance is more a Scottish trait. Oh and no need to shout. If you can't get yourself listened to without raising your voice you have nothing to say worth listening too.

Anyway we are supposed to be on topic and the imploding of the labour party.
377

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:33:31
It doesn't really matter whether gordy loses power in scotland,our next prime minister ie David Cameron will not.
378

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:36:25
425. You really don't want to know,common speak would be the best way to sum it up.
379

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 18:40:45
Re #39, et al. Remember Niccolo Machiavelli. Then consider if maybe there's only a contrived "rift" twixt Gordon and Wendy staged for public consumption. A charade the two concocted to make it appear "Scottish Labour" is acting independently of London, when perhaps both Gordon and Wendy have privately agreed it's best to hold independence referendum prematurely, whilst making it appear Gordon isn't eqaully in a hurry to see vote happen. Look at the demographics. It's the younger Scots who most favour independence, so the sooner the vote is held, the less likely to succeed. Therefore, it's in best interests of Westminster-Hanoverians for referendum to take place ASAP before substantial numbers of young Scots reach voting age; that is, vote ASAP whilst there may still be enough older voters in electorate to defeat referendum. E.g., those who've had fears of independence inculcated into them over their lifetimes by Unionists, and/or people who otherwise harbour entrenched Unionist, "We're all British", or whatever other anti-independence sentiments imaginable.
380

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:43:50
427. wonder if their "grand job"will be so grand without the 30 billion pounds curtesy of westminster!
381

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 18:45:49
#427 Half Moon
You write "All I see from the unionists is the same thing being repeated all the time. It's not very impressive. They don't seem to have much love for Scotland or confidence in what we can do. Alot of the unionists seem to be very right wing which is quite alarming and seem to keep insulting the nat all the time and Scotland as well. I don't want anything to do with that. I'll be voting yes for independence."

All I see from nationalists is repetitious abuse. You only have to go to #387 Haggis 10 to find some:

"Remember the song "What a Parcel of Rouges in a Nation " I think Quisling would be an apt name for Wendy Alexander . ready to sell out their country for a few Bawbees Not someone to lead the Liebour Parti in North Britain Fancy cockin a snoot at New Stalin Watch out Wendy the Secret Service will be on your case presently, Charge Sedition!!!!!!!! "
382

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 18:50:09
Rev. S. Campbell (409): "The nature of averages is that some places will be below the average, and some above. But the average is the average."

But which average is it? Is this the arithmetic mean, the median, or even something more exotic? It's most likely one of the first two and, given its size, the arithmetic mean (i.e. (R1 + R2 + . . . + Rn)/n, where R1, ..., Rn are the rents for a sample of n properties). Now the arithmetic mean has the property that it is possible for most houses to have a _lower_ rent than this particular average (or indeed a _higher_ rent than the average), since the arithmetic mean is not the median (i.e. that value for which half are below, half above). For example, if the rents consisted of 10 houses at £500 per month and 2 at £4000 per month, then the arithmetic mean is £1083.33: thus 10 of the 12 are below average price in this sense.
383

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 18:51:11
Happy and Kimba

Clipe means snitch in Scots, oik (English slang)implied someone who spoke Cockney...
384

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 18:51:21
431 a literary, political and historical comment based on Scotland and what has gone before, reflecting that on where we are now. Even labour members are questioing whether their two incumbent leaders should continue and refelecting on the insidious and corrupt management of local and national politics in scotland by the labour party. Hardly abuse.
385

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 18:52:03
433 can correspond to nyaff though.
386

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 18:57:28
#434
"Quisling" "Stalin".
Some of the nationalists on this board are in the gutter and you know it!

I voted SNP last year. I don't think I will again (although at the moment I can't because I am no longer registered in Scotland).

P.S.
Burns also wrote poems in favour of the union...but his romantic poems are much better than his political stuff. Also he did a bit of tax collecting for the English.
387

kimba,

09/05/2008 18:58:37
433.As I said common talk.
388

Tobe ornot,

09/05/2008 19:01:02
There's method in her madness! - She knows there will be NO vote for separation.
389

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 19:01:18
Now Kimba, re your #430. Have you forgotten the oil revenues? Have you forgotten that Republic of Ireland "Celtic Tiger" economy -- freed from English hegemony -- far outperforms Scotland's economy? "Loss of 30 billion pounds courtesy of Westminster" -- crumbs off Westminster's table -- will be far offset by economic gains flowing from independence. If I rob you of 90% of the money in your purse/wallet and then return a tuppence to you, should you be grateful? Have you forgotten what Tony Blair said during press conference on the Azores back in 2003, when embarking with George Bush on Iraq War? Let me refresh you. Blair claimed that Iraq invasion was justified so "the Iraqi people could control their own natural resources" [versus control by Saddam Hussein]...and so the Iraqi would have the benefits of their own Iraqi oil." At the time, I was shouting at my TV set: "Hey Tony, what about substituting words, 'Scottish people' and 'Scottish oil' in the same sentence?"
390

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 19:02:15
438
kimba
Are you, a Geordie, suggesting Cockneys are common?
391

The Strategist,

09/05/2008 19:06:04
#350 Fairfax

Yes - We need a mechanism to allow overseas capital to flow into Scottish companies. The Oslo exchange is a very good example of one that has worked to its country's (norway) national advantage.

392

English Glaswegian,

09/05/2008 19:08:57
-427; half-moon: I agree, having watched the debate closely over the last year I admit to being one who was worried about the SNP and did not vote for them. However, they really are doing well in government, and I have to say I have been more than impressed by Salmond and co.

Weirdly, I am beginning to warm to the idea of independence. I am English, but have made my home here and my career is here, and I am surprised to say I find the whole idea very exciting - it would be exciting to live in a country being "re-born" so to speak? The anti-SNP parties have to put some kind of positive case for the UK, because many people I suspect, like me to some extent, are quite drawn to the positive / ambitious message the SNP has.
393

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 19:11:30
Now Kimba, re your #430. Have you forgotten the oil revenues? Have you forgotten that Republic of Ireland "Celtic Tiger" economy -- freed from English hegemony -- far outperforms Scotland's economy? "Loss of 30 billion pounds courtesy of Westminster" -- crumbs off Westminster's table -- will be far offset by economic gains flowing from independence. If I rob you of 90% of the money in your purse/wallet and then return a tuppence to you, should you be grateful? Have you forgotten what Tony Blair said during press conference on the Azores back in 2003, when embarking with George Bush on Iraq War? Let me refresh you. Blair claimed that Iraq invasion was justified so "the Iraqi people could control their own natural resources" [versus control by Saddam Hussein]...and so the Iraqi would have the benefits of their own Iraqi oil." At the time, I was shouting at my TV set: "Hey Tony, what about substituting words, 'Scottish people' and 'Scottish oil' in the same sentence?"
394

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 19:18:45
437 quisling is highly appropriate, someone who operates in a government for its downfall to benefit from the following regime. really sums up wendy to a tee, realising that gordie is on the way out, labour support is haemorraging in scotland and their chances of forming a government in westminster or holyrood are low to middling. Hardly a deeply offensive description of wendy.

Perhaps if taken out of context and mis-interpreted the reference to stalin would be offensive but it is a reference to a dictatorial appraoch by labour center to ensure that Slab toe the line, it is not suggesting that brron is operating gulags in the norfolk downs and disappearing people.

Really not that offensive at all.

Kimba, if i'd meant nose i would have said neb, in the context, this is a Scottish word for nose and is derived, in fact is the same as that used in Gaighlig. Other gaidhlig words in common use are slogan and galore, i could mention bodkin too but that is gettting dodgey.
395

kimba,

09/05/2008 19:22:22
441.Tell you what buddy,you concentrate on your elections and leave the people of the uk to fathem out their own problems!
396

kimba,

09/05/2008 19:26:09
444.So sad and negative you refuse to answer any of my questions.
397

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 19:26:37
437
Publius
"Also he did a bit of tax collecting for the English."

Do you mean the British?
Dancing wi' the meikle black deil indeed.
398

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 19:29:49
437
...Though his taxes would probably HAVE been considered English...
399

Saoghal Beag,

09/05/2008 19:35:10
450 conan, he was worse than a taxman, he was an exciseman, boo hiss. mind that was in the days that the uk government offered £5 for every old snake from the heather. More than enough to buy a new one and have some change left over.

Actually it was at the time when discriminatory taxes on malt and distilling were diliberately brought into effect to the detriment of scotland and contra to the act of union.
400

Bejjy,

09/05/2008 19:38:59
#444 Traqir

All very very sad and negative

Aren't you just?
401

weh,

09/05/2008 19:39:26
Geoff SA
All very depressing"
Not at all Geoff!

Its the best thing thats happened to old Scotia since 1707!

I pray and pray that Bean and his cabal of renegade "scots" are BLOWN AWAY at the earliest opportunity!
402

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 19:55:23
The Strategist (4430:" Yes - We need a mechanism to allow overseas capital to flow into Scottish companies."

You would have that on the LSE, together with the added advantage that it's Europe's de facto financial centre. Still, it's an interesting possibility.
403

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 19:56:42
#452 Saoghal Beag

The production of Sassenach Snake Oil™, peaked in the late 18th and early 19th century...It is expected to have a Renaissance between now and 2010.
404

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 20:05:48
What we are talking about here is, England is losing its grip on Scotland.To all England's yes men and women out there(Scottish Unionists),I have this to say,beware of the risen people!Beware of the change that is coming.
405

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 20:09:02
C'mon the Zombies...

Get stuck into thae Unionist B's.
406

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 20:10:28
sorry...couldn't resist that.
407

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 20:16:47
Half Moon (455): "I think alot of Scottish people do worry about the affect this might be having on English people living in Scotland."

That's good to hear. Several English friends living in Scotland have mentioned some problems: it's a minority, but it's certainly present. For example, imagine how it feels to be English in Scotland when Flower of Scotland (459) writes "beware of the risen people!Beware of the change that is coming." There is necessarily the fear that Scottish nationalism will become dominated by ethnic nationalism, particularly since, with respect, so much of the Scottish identity is bound up with the relationship with England.

To give another hypothetical case, what would be the general reaction if an independence referendum rejected secession, but polls indicated that the crucial votes had been those of the 10% English minority in Scotland? I suspect the English would then feel as welcome as in a cinema screening "Braveheart" in central Glasgow . . .
408

English Glaswegian,

09/05/2008 20:17:44
-456. Half Moon

I now watch politics closely and am facinated by it. I was very neagtive about the SNP and independence, but I confess this was largely due to a stereo-type/ perception about the SNP - anti-English, narrow etc. Having got more "educated" in the last 12 months I see most of my worries were misplaced. I was fascinated to read Salomnd's speechs on international relations and the environment the other month. As someone who lives, works and has their life in Scotland in do see a great potential in independence to make Scotland more vibrant and successful. I am 50/50 now re. independence, and impressed by the SNP government - we will see how the debate progresses.

I just think it is a great pity that alot of the discussion (and their is much to be debated and discussed) is of the tye that -459- Flower of Scotland, or "Kimba" and "happy English" write - just seems to be childish "my country is better than yours" rubbish - I am fascinated by the economics, what constitution an independent Scotland would have, what relationship is proposed for it with England in terms of cooperation, what it proposes on the EU - these are big issues and the debate would be better without the silly name calling.
409

Robert E. Howard,

Cimmeria 09/05/2008 20:24:01
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/1198

The YouGov poll has a range of other questions apart from voting intention. As one might expect given the high polling ratings for the SNP, there were positive ratings for the Scottish administration (net approval of plus 25) and Alex Salmond as first minister (net satisfaction of plus 20). In contrast Wendy Alexander had a net score for doing a good job of minus 39. The other two party leaders, Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen both had notably high don’t know ratings (39% and 45% respectively), suggesting people are largely unaware of what they are doing. Of those who did express and opinion, Goldie’s ratings were far better than Stephen’s (plus 21, as opposed to minus 1).

The Cameron effect doesn’t seem to be penetrating north of the border. 13% of respondents said they were more likely to vote Conservative with David Cameron as leader…but 14% said they were less likely. Questions like this aren’t perfect, since people may become more positive or negative towards a party because of the actions of the leader or the way he has changed the party, without ascribing the change directly to the leader himself - but the Westminister voting intention figures in the polls back up the finding, showing no significant increase in Tory support in Scotland since the last general election.

YouGov also asked where the blame lay in recent disagreements between Holyrood and Westminster. Respondents were pretty evenly split between thinking the arguments were being deliberated created by Alex Salmond to show London in a bad light and how Scotland would be better off independent (38%) and between blaming the Westminster government for being insensitive to Scotland’s needs (35%). The split was identical when respondents were asked if London was bullying the Scottish exective - 35% agreed, 38% disagreed.

On YouGov’s normal tracker question on how people would vote in a referendum on Scottish independence 59% said they would sup
410

kimba,

09/05/2008 20:24:06
453.I would vote tory if I had to,but am a member of the English Democrats.
411

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 20:24:46
Kimba -- I have vested interest in Scottish elections since I have second home in Scotland, where I plan to retire in a few years. Ironically, it's very near land confiscated from my family (paternal ancestors) "courtesy of Westminster" (to borrow your phrase) in middle of 18th century. Telling me to essentially "butt out" evades the substantive issues I raised; but let's not get deflected so easily. Do you or don't you remember what Mr. Blair said in 2003 about the necessity for spilling blood to secure Iraq's oil for the Iraqi people? And can you fathom that maybe it's reasonable that Scottish North Sea oil should be secured for Scotland's people when it can be done bloodlessly under terms of the 1707 "union of the parliaments" [so-called] treaty."? Even without oil revenues, why shouldn't Scotland's economy, once freed of English suzerainty, prosper to the same degree as Republic of Ireland? ["Suzerain: 1. A feudal lord; 2. A nation that controls the international affairs of another nation but permits it domestic sovereignty." -- Webster's Dictionary.] PS And don't forget, there are millions of Scots around the world because of the "Clearances", which would be called "cultural genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" nowadays (the latter a crime under international law). People like me are over here in one of the former colonies don't have the right to vote in Scotland because they resisted the English conquest of 1707. There followed the "Scots Diaspora", the essence of which is succinctly and eloquently captured by one of King Edward's lines from "Braveheart": "The trouble with Scotland...(pause for effect)...is that it's full of Scots." No longer; not since 1746 - present.
412

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 20:29:27
#465 Who ever heard of "an English Democrat"? Haaaaaa Haaaaa haaaaa.What a loser you are.Stay out of my country's affairs.Scottish independence, NOW!
413

Robert E. Howard,

Cimmeria 09/05/2008 20:30:34
On YouGov’s normal tracker question on how people would vote in a referendum on Scottish independence 59% said they would support the status quo, with 25% saying they would vote for independence. As we’ve discussed here before, different ways of asking this question show markedly different results, and YouGov’s question which specifies that voting no still retains the Scottish Parliament normally results in less support for independence, but compared to previous YouGov/Telegraph polls using the same wording, the balance of opinion is moving away from independence.

"the balance of opinion is moving away from independence."
414

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 20:32:23
USJacobitexile (456): "And can you fathom that maybe it's reasonable that Scottish North Sea oil should be secured for Scotland's people when it can be done bloodlessly under terms of the 1707 "union of the parliaments" [so-called] treaty."?

It's certainly reasonable, but there is the point that the territory of Scotland, defined in the 1707 Act, did not include the area containing the oil: it lies in what were international waters, until merely a few decades ago. I'm a mathematician, not a lawyer, so really don't know if this argument is anything more than a curiosity.
415

Publius,

London 09/05/2008 20:32:39
#464 Robert E Howard
We are writing about different polls. You are quoting from a summary of last week's YouGov poll for The Times. I was writing about the poll published today in the Sun.
416

Donald Norway,

09/05/2008 20:34:42
286 Ananurhing

Sorry a bit late in getting back. The local commune take the tax, take their bit and pass whatever to the central gov. Less stealth tax still plenty of tax though. Better benefits too in regards to pension, unemployment benefit, maternity and child benefit.

On the oil fund the latest I can find is some figures from
Jan 08 and a quote from Reuters
"Norway's oil fund dips to $384 bln". I guess they have been too busy counting the money pouring in since then.
417

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 20:37:11
USJacobitexile (466): "And don't forget, there are millions of Scots around the world because of the "Clearances", which would be called "cultural genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" nowadays"

That's possibly true. However, I find it difficult to feel much guilt for the Clearances when addressed by an American: would not the US treatment of Native Americans also be cultural genocide? Are Britons really to express guilt for events which occurred some 250 years ago?
418

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 20:39:46
English Glaswegian and Half Moon, thank you for your comments. They reflect the same sentiments of many of my English friends and colleagues living in Scotland who have been suitably impressed by the Scottish government.

Your comments make it worthwhile posting on here, they are gems amongst the dross from Kimba, Highland Mighty, the Master, Alfred etcetera. Thanks.
419

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 20:41:54
#471 Is that the "Alien made love to me" Sun?
420

Conan the Librarian™,

Pictish wilderness, not. 09/05/2008 20:46:42
464
Don't I know you from somewhere...?

The Tories cannot and will not achieve power in Scotland, till the Evil Snatcher is a folk memory.

The nice guy "Dave" image? Teenage Hoorays wrecking restaurants, relying on Pater's cheque-book to buy them out of trouble...why do I think of that when I think of him?
421

Eve,

Scotland 09/05/2008 20:48:50
Roll on 2010 referndum!!! (he,he,he)

422

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 20:48:51
#476 Why, do compliments amuse you?

These two posters have made very pertinent posts to the scaremongering tactics from some of the more bitter Unionist posters.
423

Robert E. Howard,

09/05/2008 20:51:18
#471

Today’s YouGov poll was also reported as showing that any alternative Labour leader would perform even worse than Gordon Brown. YouGov gave respondents a list of other politicians and asked if people would be more or less likely to vote Labour in a general election if they were leader - all had a negative net score, with more people saying they would be less likely to vote Labour with them in charge than more likely.

I would be very dubious indeed about these questions for two reasons. Firstly there’s the question design - less or more likely doesn’t tell you that much. Many of the people who said they would be more likely to vote Labour with X in charge already vote Labour, so yes - having that person in charge might firm up their support but isn’t winning more votes. Many people who say they would be less likely to vote Labour with X in charge are already not voting Labour, so it may be driving them even further away, but since they aren’t voting Labour anyway it’s not necessarily much of a loss. If you must do questions like this, it’s better to ask people how they would vote if X, Y and Z were party leaders, giving alternative Labour leaders in different versions of the question.
424

Robert E. Howard,

09/05/2008 20:51:57
Even then though (and I’d be amazed if some questions like that didn’t come along sooner or later), the questions would be pretty meaningless. Regular readers will remember the questions we had when Tony Blair was Prime Minister that asked how people would vote if Gordon Brown was leader. Back then I had to laden down the results with lots of caveats about people not being very good predictors of how they would react to future events and that, in practice, Brown would probably get a big boost upon being leader. In the event he did, but a few months later he was trailing in the polls in much the way those pre-Brown polls had predicted. Those were a special case though, since Brown had been a very prominent politician for the previous decade and the public knew him well and knew what he was like. It could have turned out very differently and Brown could have shown a completely different side of his personality as Prime Minister… he didn’t, he was the same Gordon Brown and people reacted in the way they thought they would. But the fact remains he could have surprised them.
425

Robert E. Howard,

09/05/2008 20:53:01
In this case, with the possible exception of Jack Straw, none of the possible replacements for Brown are widely known by the public. YouGov took this into account to some extent in today’s poll by giving respondents the option of saying they didn’t know enough about each person (38% gave that response for James Purnell and Andy Burnham, 16% for David Miliband, 6% for Jack Straw), but the problem is really unsurmountable. People can’t say how their opinions would really change were Andy Burnham or James Purnell Prime Minister since they’ve little or no idea of who they are, what they are like or what on earth they would do or change as Prime Minister.

If Brown’s leadership starts to come under real pressure then expect more polls like this…but unless they are about very well known politicians treat them as just a bit of fun.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/
426

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 09/05/2008 20:58:33
"THE rift between Gordon Brown and the Scottish Labour Party deepened last night..."

There is no such beast as the Scottish Labour Party.Gordon Brown, not Wendy Alexander, is the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland. Wendy is not the leader of the Scottish MPs either. She is the leader of the Labour MSPs.

Sloppy journalism by the Scotsman.
427

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 21:03:07
Tonight's C4 News warned that Brown was about to get personal.

I wonder if we'll see a rash of photos and the alleged video of Cameron, Baron Gideon Osborne and a sultry hooker indulging in toot.
428

Senga Jean,

09/05/2008 21:04:04
#175 To the UKIP supporter trying to get my support I would refer him to the UKIP member writing in the Times blog referring to Scots as Jockinese. UGGGHHH
429

Robert E. Howard,

09/05/2008 21:06:09
#477 Conan

Yes my son and now I must just go to my car, My mother is not well Crom be with you.
430

English Glaswegian,

09/05/2008 21:09:40
-474- Thank you. I confess that a few years ago I viewed the SNP through the prism of what I knew about it as an Englishman living in England - not much I see now, but just what was broadcast or written. And I confess I reacted to the SNP, given what I knew or perceived about it (anti-English, reactionary) on that basis. Having lived here in Scotland for a couple of years I will admit I was wrong - the SNP probably reflects my politics as a left-leaning voter better than any party (I admit I "held my nose" and voted Labour for a few elections previous, including 2007 for the Scottish Parliament).

I think alot of negativity about the SNP from posters like "Kimba" and "Happy English" is based on a kind of tribal English vs Scotland feeling hyped by the media, where the SNP are not seen in England as a serious party but as some kind of anti-English protest (and yes, I will admit I harboured such feelings - a vote for the SNP was in some way an attack on Englamd - I now realise that is rubbish). Seeing the SNP in government I am impressed, and alot of my family and friends in England do wryly express a wish for a politician like Salmond to represent them.

I totally wrote off and sneered at independence for Scotland 5 years ago, because I knew little about it. Today I might well vote "yes" - but I would want to see more on economics, constitution, and the real "nitty-gritty" details on things like continuity of social security/ benefits payments/ pension payments and all the rest of things relevant to day to day to life in Scotland not controlled here. How will pensions be payed in a transition, how will social security be managed, will there be disruption? If the SNP published a detailed plan that answered all these questions, then I would, as a resident of Scotland, probably vote yes, because I think there would be a wave of excitement and re-newal here as a result. But I await all the details - economics being key.
431

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 09/05/2008 21:13:27
The remarkable thing about opinion polls is the way pollsters barrage you with questions out of the blue, demanding a quick answer, which they get. In a real live poll, the person polling has probably made up their mind about how they are going to vote.

Regarding Broon and UUendy, I reckon both will be gone before too long.
432

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 21:13:28
486
And with you.
433

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 21:20:36
Fairfax 473. My point about "Clearances" was limited narrowly: only to explain to Kimba why descendants of my Scottish ancestors -- including myself -- are no longer in Scotland, therefore not eligible to vote on independence referendum. My point was not to suggest that today's 21st century English should be held guilty/accountable for 18th century "Clearances", any more than today's US citizens should be held to account for how 19th century European settlers treated North America's first settlers, called "Native American" tribes(whose treatment of each other before the European "second settlement" of North America was, for the most part, barbaric, not the idyllic peacable kindgom today's dons of political correctness would have us believe...e.g., perpetual wars, enslaving one another, canabalism, etc., etc). As it happens, I'm part Cherokee Indian, thanks to a lateral maternal ancestor whose heritage was Clan Ross (mother's maiden name: Ross). Perhaps you may already that the famous Cherokee, Chief John Ross, 7/8 Scottish, was the very first elected chief of the Cherokee Nation. The Cherokee tribe were very prosperous, having plantations and gold mines in the state of Georgia (even owned African slaves, sad to say). Chief John Ross opposed taking sides in the American Civil War, but was overruled by the tribal council, which allied the tribe with the Confederacy, since the Cherokee was dwelt in one of the southern Confederate States, and therefore tribal councilors reasoned that they should support and be allied with their Georgia neighbours. Obviously, after the Civil War, the Cherokee found themselves on the losing side, of course; and the gold land was coveted by the very Georgia neighbours with whom they had allied themselves during the War. Their "reward": the Cherokee were marched off -- "Trail of Tears" -- to an Indian reservation in what's now the state of Oklahoma. John Ross was chief when the Cherokee were forced-marched to Oklahoma. 1/3 of the C
434

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 21:26:26
1/3 of the Cherokee perished on the "Trail of Tears". In the 20th century, oil ("black gold") was discovered on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma; and the tribe has prospered. The Cherokee also have "gaming" (legalised gambling) franchise, and casino profits are additive to the oil wealth. Unfortunately, I'm only 1/32 Cherokee; and only those who are 1/8 or more Cherokee receive annual proportional distribution of tribal oil and gambling revenues. So I have to work for a living, unlike many if not most of my Cherokee "cousins" who are 1/8 or more Cherokee blood. Thankfully, Westminster never got imperial hands on Cherokee oil; but as for Scotland's oil, that's another matter.
435

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 21:29:43
#437 I agree with you Publius - resorting to name-calling is not the way to influence people. The extreme nationalists and unionists need to grow up and actually listen to what the others say.

There are those who have genuine concerns - abusing them is not the way you are going to win them over.

The crazier thing still is that if Scotland did become independent then some who are presently on opposite sides of the debate may well find themselves in the same political party after realignment.
436

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 21:36:38
#490 The Highland Clearances were not even the fault of the English in the 17th, 18th & 19th centuries. If anything it was (as is often the case) about money and the ruling clases shafting the working classes. Many of those who played their part also had strong links to the slave trade from Africa.

Did you know that in the USA in the 17th and 18th centuries almost half the white population were in indentured labour?
437

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 21:43:04
#487 English Glaswegian, the issues you raise are exactly the reason why the Scottish govt are having their national conversation.

There is no off-the-shelf blueprint for a new nation. The answers are only found in debate and study across as broad a spectrum as is possible. Hence the disbelief that the Calman Commission will not even consider Independence as an option!

I cannot imagine transition will be easy with many critics sniping from the sidelines. Mistakes will be made, but for the first time, I hope that this will be a govt that isn't afraid to put its hands up when it makes a mistake. (Naive eh?)

However, the sense of renewal, confidence and optimism coupled with ability and strength from Salmond and his cabinet is what heartens me.

A great indicator for me that the Union was over was at the height of the Dungavel Immigration Centre debacle, when families with young children were being raided at dawn by heavily outfitted police officers, their possessions bundled into plastic bags and the families dragged off to a detention centre in the middle of moorland.

At the time a few Labour MSP's rightly condemned the practise. Jack McConnell then FM contacted the Home Office to get them to stop this practise. He was utterly ignored, brushed off by a junior official, with the credo that this was a 'reserved power'.

Personally, for me, that was the day the Union showed it wasn't best suited to serve Scotland or its people.

Cheers
438

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 21:45:21
#487 English Glaswegian

continuity of social security benefits -

There will be a moratorium on security benefits, this could last for several months as Scotland has no mechanism for collecting tax/national insurance and has no money in the kitty.

pension payments -

Pension payments will be suspended indefinitely, as the money you payed in went to the treasury in London, who will retain it to cover the cost of re-organising things and the Scottish Government has no money of it's own and will be starting from scratch.

At least that was the position before the 1979 Election when the Labour Party's coat was hanging on the same shooglly nail that it is today.

Fortunately the Scottish People believed the Labourites and gratefully accepted their vague promises of shiney beads, mirrors and fire-water to be delivered at some unspecified date in the future, in a fair exchange for our worthless Black Gold.

The rest is history...


439

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 21:49:10
#494 One of the issues we do have to deal with is actually having funds left to build up an oil fund.

My understanding is (and correct me if I am wrong) is that the Scottish Budget would balance but there would not be a sufficient surplus to build up an adequate oil fund. Therefore to build up a fund an independent Scotland would have to seriously examine its expenditure. My own view is that there is scope to achieve better value for money from the bloated public sector but that it would require a fundamental overhaul of the public sector to acheive this.

English Glaswegian (#487) makes the point that they would like to see a lot more of the nitty gritty regards the economics. I'd agree with that - although no fan of independence if we were going to become independent I'd like to see it work - and work effectively. I suppose what I am saying is that it does not matter what political structure we happen to be in as long as it is the one the Scottish people want and that it damn well works.

That being said - economics should not be the reason for being for or against independence - for me there are also basic political reasons why I take the stance I do - just as I suspect that for many nationalists it is more than economics.
440

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/05/2008 21:51:18
#496 The truth is though that outside of the SNP no-one trusts the National Conversation - just as no-one inside the SNP trusts calman.
441

English Glaswegian,

09/05/2008 21:53:11
-496. Independence. Not sure what the situation you refer to re immigrants/ dawn raids, but I share a distaste for current dentention without trial and ID cards proposals and Labour's position re. Iraq and the Tory/ Labour use of immigration for point scoring.

-. 497. Col IV. Are you saying that benefit claimants will not be paid during a transition to indpendence? That to me is exactly the worst case scenario of uncertainty and would make me vote no - unless there was a plan and a system in place to ensure continuity for pensioners/ disabled being paid DSS benefits then the proposed constitutional change is a no go for me.
442

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 21:55:38
#499 Federalist, as one of the prime scaremongers on this site, your words mean very little too me.
443

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 22:00:09
English Glaswegian, Conan was referring to the tactics used by Labour during campaigning for the 1979 Devo referendum.

Re Dungavel,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3082164.stm

gives a quick insight and has many links to other aspects of the reviled place.
444

English Glaswegian,

09/05/2008 22:17:20
-502. Thanks for link. Having read it I am shocked - detenetion of children and limiting access to lawyers? This received little coverage or I am sure (or I hope) there would have been more protest. I had grave reservations about Laboour over Iraq, 42 or 90 days dentention and the rest, but that is a truly disturbing article to read. What sort of country imprisons children who have no committed no crime?

Re 497, it is none the less an area that needs a great deal more detail. It is the type of governmental/ bureacratic area that needs moreclarity from the SNP in regard to independence.
445

Conan the Librarian™,

09/05/2008 22:22:12
502
I wish I had Indy, but it was Col.Blimp.
The unionistas may have used that as their myth of two-and-a-half Nats posting as zillions.
446

Col. Blimp IV*,

09/05/2008 22:23:17
#500 English Glaswegian,

The scenario's I mentioned were more or less direct quotes from two Labour Party Members who lived 10 miles apart and to the best of my knowledge had never met. George Wilson and Jim Newlands for what it is worth.
447

USJacobitexile,

Minnesota USA 09/05/2008 22:26:22
Fairfax, re #470: I'm not international lawyer, either. But from what I've read, opinions of international law experts, 1707 definition of international vs national waters is irrelevant, unless Union of Parliaments had been undone in 1707 and Scotland regained sovereignty/independence in 1707. The boundaries of sovereign national waters of a sovereign Scotland would/should be established as of date of Scotland re-establishing independence, not obsolete 1707 definitions. E.g., Scotland regains independence in 21st century, then 21st century definitions of sovereign/national waters versus international waters would be applicable.