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1

,

09/10/2008 01:15:37
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2

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 01:36:24
Blame it ALL on STUPID George Baby Bush and his Cabinet of fumbling nincompoops and the Oval Office's lackeys at Wall Street.
3

SCULLION1,

Canada 09/10/2008 01:43:21
Despite all their hindsight gobbledygook, economists are worse at predictions than weathermen. At least weathermen try to predict something that obeys the laws of nature, economists have the impossible task of trying to predict how low money grubbers will sink to cash in.
4

,

09/10/2008 01:48:55
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5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 01:51:38


Tim ~2,

What you say, has absolute truth, we will get all the,..'Comments' on what you say is wrong!

But at end of-day, you are correct!

The USA Rules all World economy, 'one-way-or-the-other'

You, Slow Down or Stop, we all are affected!

And don't anyone say, I am Wrong!

Because if you do!, you are the only ones Wrong, in your non-understanding, of the Truths!
6

uniqorn51,

Tucson, USA 09/10/2008 02:12:52
The worlds economy has been crashing for at least a year, if one has been looking. The "collapse" occurs just before the American election. No accident. This timing was orchestrated for the benefit of Obama, who supports a One World Order, and therefor the needed decline of American influence. The bottom line is the loss of individual freedoms as nations give up their autonomy--to who?--what? Many have it backwards. There cannot be a One World Order with a strong America present. The Bushes and Clintons have been behind the decline of The United States for the sake of the coming One World. It will not be the United States who runs a One World Order.
7

RightStuff,

Texas, USA 09/10/2008 02:19:00
It wasn't George Bush. It was leftist do-gooder politicians who passed laws requiring financial institutions to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back. There are criminal penalties for "discriminating" against these poor, hapless folks. Get it? LEFTISTS, or SOCIALISTS. The US economy is 27% of the world's economy, and the do-gooders have fouled it up for the whole world. The US economy drives even poor Fidel Castro's Cuba's economy, whether he will admit it or not.
8

Forward not Back,

09/10/2008 02:20:34
#6 - yep, it's all a conspiracy!

Nothing to do with granting mortgages to ex-cons or unemployed people, and nothing at all to do with 0% interest credit card offers that you can max out and transfer onto another credit card, then get your limit increased.

No, definitely all a conspiracy.
9

kaw kaay shion,

waukesha, wi, usa 09/10/2008 02:23:21
"NEW WORLD ORDER".....There goes those COMMUNIST buzzwords provided to you ALL by George Herbert Walker Bush in the 1990's through his Bejing buddies. While the Chinese are passing out their little red books to the rest of you, the thirty million American Veterans will be shooting as soon as we see the whites of their eyes. We promise.
10

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 09/10/2008 02:28:45
#2 TimW1234

You are aiming at the wrong den of thieves. The fault lies with the Unted States Congress, primarily with Senators Dodd and Schumer and Representative Franks, who have been bribed for several years with large "contributions" from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and specifically their politically appointed chief executives Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson. These people were cooking the books at their own organizations but wre "punished" with large golden parachutes when they were forced out.

Bush and his cabinet could do little about this. In the United States, Congress holds the purse strings.


11

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09/10/2008 02:37:00
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12

Bend Over,

09/10/2008 02:43:39
"New World Order"

Hahahaha, hilarious.

More like a Brave New World, or 1984.

Anyway folks, the party is over, we have been living on credit for 30 years and the "man" wants his money back. Both major parties have conspired to wreck our economy, all the ship yards, steel mills, textile mills, coal mines have gone, the cupboard is bare.

You can't support a country of 60 million people by selling each other Chinese imports and dodgy financial services.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for electing the traitors. Check out the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1780948.ece
The country is bankrupt, our own people are sleeping in cardboard boxes and we are paying £12000 a month to house immigrants.

Hahaha, we have been well and truly screwed, it goes down fast from now on.
13

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09/10/2008 02:51:20
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14

Forward not Back,

09/10/2008 03:15:06
#11 - the guilty people are the central bankers for not controlling the money supply properly.

You obviously think that's deliberate. If so, what was the need to create the super derivatives that no one understood in the first place, or was that all part of the masterplan?
15

US Cavalry,

Virginia, USA 09/10/2008 03:48:09
Beware the Bonesmen,
The Bush's are members and as many world finacial leaders. First you destroy individual country's economy and then come's the New World Order bringing hope and prosparity. Might even call it the Fourth Reich but global. Damn the Bush's and Cheney are good.
Oh and did I forget to mention, so is Cheney a Bonesmen.
16

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09/10/2008 04:30:08
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09/10/2008 05:33:37
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Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 05:34:30
The fact that the Libour numptie at #15 thinks this is a good plan should tell you everything you need to know.

The root of this problem has been the inadequate under-pricing of risk due to the low-interest rate, credit expansionist policy pusued under Greenspan in the US over the past nearly two decades years and copied by The Iron Chancellor -what a truly sick joke that moniker is-the man whose master-stroke was to sell all our gold reserves for a pittance and who has helped create the biggest financial bubble in recent history.

A boom based on debt that is about to go bust -spectacularly.

The suggested solution from the dynamic duo-financial novices-who have been behind the curve all the way?-Cut interest rates?? This will only perpetuate the problem and shore up over-valued asset prices. And what will happen when the estimated $55 trillion in Credit Default Swaps washing around the market that dont even appear on any banks balance sheets -come into play and trigger even more carnage? The markets have lost all confidence.

If we had any armed forces left I would surmise that like in some banana republic they would presently be contemplating taking control in the national interest and ousting these charlatans in a coup d'etat -but like everything else they get their mits on Liebour have run our proud services down as well and have them fighting futile wars in Iraq in Afghanistan.

The lesson : Never trust Labour in power-this will be their third attempt at trying to bankrupt the country -and quite possibly their most successful.

After their last effort in government we had to endure the pain of Thatcher whose solution was to destroy industry- whatever the social cost -and reduce the national debt by selling all the national silver via a massive privatization scheme.

This time the prospective incoming Tory Government will have nothing of any value left to sell -apart from the banks-only they wont even have those because apparently the Governm
19

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 05:42:50
Cont.

This time the prospective incoming Tory Government will have nothing of any value left to sell -apart from the banks-only they wont even have those because apparently the Government has taken Preference shares rather than equity!!

I dont see how this can be avoided-the bill has now arrived for the over-indulgence and living beyond our means and enormous wealth that has accrued to a minority while the majority are up to their necks in debt. The reality is that the success of the US/UK rescue packages depends as much on the support of China and the Middle East providing the finance as it does on the taxpayer-a frightening prospect!
20

Stuart F.,

Vancouver, B. C. 09/10/2008 05:42:53
Does anyone remember the Reaganomics thingy? Let's face it folks, the Banks have been doing this lending to each other for years, more so in the Excited States than in Canada.Thin Air is right, there is no easy fix in this financial mess-up. And isn't amazing that major banks will continue to worry about their profit margins but screw their employees out of benefits and full time hours etc, while nickel and diming their customers with stupid service charges. Where does all that money go?
21

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/10/2008 05:45:26
Keynes rules OK
22

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/10/2008 05:48:05
7 - Alf Garnett has moved to Texas
23

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09/10/2008 05:48:50
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Glasgow Expat,

Desert 09/10/2008 06:03:12
Greenspan deserves most of the blame in my opinion. The great bubble blower. But it's all human natural cycles. Kondratief was right. Check out www.thelongwaveanalyst.ca or www.elliottwave.com for some education folks. And if you think the Fed and the fiat money system is good then check this out..http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531
Buy GOLD..it gets much, much worse than this folks.
25

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:05:34
To understand the extent of the US dependence on overseas support :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/margareta-pagano/margareta-pagano-will-china-tip-the-us-balance-of-financial-terror-951396.html


"Foreign countries now own nearly a quarter, some $2.6 trillion, of the total US debt. They also own more than $14 trillion in US assets – that's more than the total US national output.
By far the biggest chunk of this debt is still owned by the Japanese, with US Treasuries worth $593.4bn. But soaring up the debt table is China, which now controls $518.7bn, more than 8 per cent higher over the past year, and equal to about half of the total $1.2 trillion it holds in reserve assets. Oil-rich states are also snapping up T-bills as though they are going out of fashion – up 29 per cent on the year to $173bn. On top of this, the US has a trade deficit with China in the first six months of this year of $142bn – and it is still growing. "

The big thing in the US's favour is that these lender countries have a symbiotic relaionship with Uncle Sam -at the moment they both need each other.Like a junkie the US is in too deep to Japan/China as it continues to rack-up massive trade deficits to preserve its over-indulgent lifestyle and the highest standard of living on the planet. Chinese growth is reliant on being able to export to the US and if these lenders did pull out it would destroy the dollar/ and hurt their own investments denominated in $assets. The fact that the dollar has been strengthening suggests that they are willing to continue to support as further evidenced by Asian banks recently buying American banks. However consider the longer-term implications re global power.

As for the impact of this on the UK-well we are the de facto 51st state -without enjoying the benefits of the US standard of living- and if US sneezes we get the flu or worse!
26

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:13:10
#27 please do us all a favour and stick to posting your puerile nonsense on the football topics and leave the serious stuff to the adults!
27

Ursus arctos horribilis,

09/10/2008 06:33:40
#26 To be fair George Soros has been calling this one right for some time and is probalby umteen billions to the good.

Here's a quote by a former director of the Bank of England:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough money to buy it back again?

Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But if you want to continue to be slaves of the banks and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit." - Josiah Stamp (Director of the Bank of England, 1928-194)

And from the Masters themselves:

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.
28

Ubi,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 06:43:30
A new convention in spin has emerged from this fiasco. Costs and risks are borne by "government". Benefits and returns, however unlikely, are to be enjoyed by the "tax payer".

The reality of course is that we - who did not ask our government to give away our money - pick up the whole tab. £16,000 each I hear to finance Fred Goodwin's and others' madness.
29

Drum Major,

risbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:47:19
George Bush senior announced the 'New World Order' in 1990. George W is just following the script. It is about a One World Government by bankers. Barry Smith (1933-2002) told you so.
30

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:52:59
Barry Smith wrote a series of books between 1980 & 2002 about the New World Order and warning of the present events.
31

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09/10/2008 06:55:49
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Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 06:56:06
Google Barry Smith.
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09/10/2008 07:10:31
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subwo,

Colorado, USA 09/10/2008 07:14:38
One should watch the first part of the Google Video: Zeitgeist Addendum. (released 2 Oct 08) It shows how the money in the fractional reserve system is created from thin air and debt will soon be unable to be paid back to the centeral banks for the interest is too much.
35

donald,

glasgow 09/10/2008 07:17:49
It was a;ll caused by greed and speculation and the fact that the bankers did not rust each other end reneged on their gambling debts.
36

W Smith,

Middle East 09/10/2008 07:19:40
Gordon Brown has spent on average 400 billion pounds a year to keep the UK's public sector going, spending a massive total of 4 trillion pounds as his time as Chancellor.

Our Gordon spent some of this cash on the small army of new employees (600,000) he hired for the unproductive Public Sector.

If only he had ran a surplus rather than a deficit, as the IMF advised, things might have turned out a little better.
37

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09/10/2008 07:19:58
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38

Rufus T. Firefly,

09/10/2008 07:24:51
What we need to do going forward is to follow the Norwegian model. I am suprised no one has mentioned this.

Nevsky tried following a Norwegian Model once. He got arrested for stalking though and got 5 years in the Gulag.
39

Rufus T. Firefly,

09/10/2008 07:30:44
The current crisis has certainly dealt a fatal blow to the independence cause thats for sure.

Two of our biggest employers will now be in hock to the Bank of England for years to come.

Everybody else works in the public sector with guaranteed gold plated pensions.

A totally unsustainable situation for an independent Scotland.

Especially with oil heading to $50 a barrel.
40

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09/10/2008 07:45:29
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41

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 07:51:50
Where is this £500 Billion package coming from? Is Gordon simply printing the money?

Lets hope not or we are in for a spell of hyper inflation (like Zimbabwae).

Somebody said to me the other day that this could be the work of terrorists i.e. can't beat our military might but can beat our financial institutions (hence the World Trade Centre tradgedy).

Either way, we are in for a bumpy ride.
42

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09/10/2008 07:52:30
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43

Unimpressed one,

09/10/2008 08:00:19
By this time next year this will all seem like a bad dream. Hopefully banks will be reined in and the housing market stabilised. By 2010 we will be in growth again.
44

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:04:15
"Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."
(H.G. Wells)

He's talking about YOU.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&ei=ZqztSP33F42wiALfyJm9Bg&q=america+freedom+to+fascism

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&ei=pRDUSKjqKou2iALIufHTAg&q=endgame
45

Boy Wonder,

09/10/2008 08:09:17
Will those responsible for the present mess ever be brought to justice??? We know who they are ... corrupt bankers and politicians all out to make a buck, regardless of the rest of us!
46

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:13:03
The only thing that surprises me about this situation is that few people realise it was planned and didnt just happen.
47

Xena - Warrior Princess,

09/10/2008 08:13:46
I agree that greed is the motivating factor in all this, I sincerely hope that the City and the Bankers do not have the nerve to award themselves bonuses this year.
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:15:14
44

So by your unassailable logic Rufus 6 months every independent nation on the planet better get their a*ses in gear and join up to the union pronto before they go under simply for being indepedent outside of this union.
49

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:15:49
53 parcel
Who planned it and why?
50

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:17:32
Ugly George @57

Terrorists and to bring down the West. They don't like us you know......
51

Boab,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 08:18:30
#32 Ubi: Another paper worked it out at £20K per taxpayer. Hey, remember Labour proclaiming that independence will cost us £5,000 each?
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:18:44
52

Smeagal all you ever post is "scare" figures and data.
For you to complain about somebody else posting inaccurate and dodgy data is like listening to Hitler complaining about somebody passing gas in a crowded room.
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:20:27
57

Maybe it was you Ugly? and the why is for personal profit as always.
You wont see any of our top politicians going under with their investments thats for sure.
54

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:20:57
52 sm753
The crucial thing now for the taxpayer is whether the banks return to profitability. If they do, then their share prices should recover and this might turn out to be a good investment for the taxpayer.
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:21:28
57

Which part of Edinburgh are you going to pretend you live in Ugly?
56

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:22:38
61 parcel
Are you saying this was all planned by politicians?
57

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:23:43
63 parcel
Why should I pretend to live in Edinburgh?
58

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:23:58
#51

This "New World Order" caper is about much more than bankers and politicians trying to make a buck.
This is a very old plan to create a global system of political and financial control run by elite international Bankers.
A World Government.
Take a look at the videos that "Vote UKIP" and I posted, all will be explained.......

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the
nations will accept the New World Order."
- David Rockefeller
59

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:24:46
65

Because you dont even live in Scotland yet you want to post as if you do.
60

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:25:29
64

Yes are you saying it wasnt?
61

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:27:20
68 parcel
I am saying that I doubt if it was planned. You are the one saying that it was. So why don't you answer the question. Who planned it and why?
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:28:06
69

Well if I knew the details I would be one of the richest men on the planet wouldnt I?
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:29:02
69

So which part of Edinburgh are you going to pretend you live in Ugly?
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:30:32
67 Parcel
Once again false info. I do live in Edinburgh and, last time I checked, Edinburgh is in Scotland. What is this anyway - are you trying to claim that just because I offer details that you disagree with that I don't live in Scotland. Is there a rule that says everybody in Scotland must agree with you.
65

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:33:04
72

What false info Ugly? Ok so yer fae Edinburgh.
Where in Edinburgh was Cox's glue factory?
66

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09/10/2008 08:36:04
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67

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:36:26
72

Ok if thats too hard for you how about the union canal do you know where the draw bridge is?
68

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:38:02
72

How about what Davidsons mains used to be called previously?
69

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:39:13
72

Oh come on ok heres an easy peasy one what was the Willie Muir?
70

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:39:49
Thinair

Didn't know Bin Laden was the only Muslim in the world! Gosh!

Yes, of course, the muslim world loves the West have proclaim that at every opportunity, eh? They also don't want to introduce Sharia law into Scotland nor did the Glasgow airport bombing ever happen.....
71

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:40:28
72

Whose memorial stands on the junction of North Charlotte and St Colms?
72

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:40:41
71 parcel
I actually live in the Brunsfield area which is on the South side of the city which is why I did not know which bus to get to Stockbridge as you asked the other day as Stockbridge is on the North side. From here you can get ano 11,16 bus down Lothian Road to Princes St (when access is available because of work laying the lines for the trams)

Alternatively you can get a no23 which turns right at Tollcross and goes down the Mound past Waverley Station. You can also go down to Polwarth Terrace and get a no 10 into town as well. If you want to go out of town to Heriot Watt Uni at Riccarton (just past the garden centre) you go up to Colinton Road and get a no.45. If you get off the no 45 before it turns right at Currie Primary School you can get on a 44 to Balerno

The weather in Edinburgh today is quite mild with some high broken cloud and there is a light breeze as I can see looking out the window. Please withdraw your false assertion that I do not live in Edinburgh.
73

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 08:41:52
"WE HAVE ENDED BOOM & BUST"

Gordon Brown, PM & Leader of the Labour Party

Comment made by GB 500Bn Times in last 12 months!

Trust me I'm Gordon! "Mandy" is joined to me at the Hip
74

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:41:53
72

Well now Ugly, now that we have established yer dishonesty and the fact that you are more than likely posting from Labour party HQ LONDON we can continue on that basis from now on eh.
75

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:43:16
80

Nothing you couldnt pick up off the web Ugly including the weather Christ you can pick up real time views of any city in the UK via their CCTV system on the Web these days.
76

Doh,

09/10/2008 08:44:21

The important thing now is to get government of the backs of the bankers.

We need to use the talent in the City, coupled with the market forces, to reform public services.

There is no point throwing money at a problem.

That is why City bankers are willing to work for so little renumeration.
77

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:44:26
Ugly Geoarge and Sucha

You are boviously not too bothered about the emerging new world order, the economy going belly up, where Brown is getting £500 billion from, the war in Afghanistan, Muslims wanting to introduce Sharia law, the loss of millions of pounds, global warming/climate change and other general "bad stuff".

However, the rest of us are. We don't care whether you live in Edinburgh or the moon. Keep your petty squabblings for playtime.

Thanks
78

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09/10/2008 08:47:29
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79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:49:04
85

WTF asked for your opinion?
80

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:51:21
Thinair

Aye, the Glesga airport waan't the best thought out plan. Strangely, it was Doctors that organised it but then again, they were doped out thier heads.

I'm only hgihlighting a conspiracy theory to throw in with the rest. It holds as much water as any other. And the Muslims would do anything to bring down the west and if you look hard enough, you can make 2+2 add up to all sorts of numbers!
81

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:52:29
87

Charming. I'll express an opinion whether you like it or not. What you gonna do? Cry? Throw your dummy out the pram? You don't even live in Scotland.
82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:54:03
88

"And the Muslims would do anything to bring down the west and if you look hard enough, you can make 2+2 add up to all sorts of numbers!"

Including invading our counties? bombing the sh*t out of our cities and starving hundreds of thousands of our children to death?
83

Prudence,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:54:52
57
The "New World order" and their numptie followers . Follow the real money. As we say in Scotland , a fool and their money is easily parted .
84

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:55:48
85 Dave
You are quite right. I will stop wasting my time on this. If parcel choses to distort things and refuses to believe facts in this manner that is his problem
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:56:14
89

Just expressing my own opinion what are you going to do about it cry? fling yer dummy? and yes I do live in Scotland and in Edinburgh probably one of the very few on here who actually does.
86

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 08:57:04
92

What would a Labour party political troll know about facts? apart from how to avoid or distort them?
87

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 08:57:47
Sadly, the lack of confidence is now in the Loan books of the banks.

The British public is over borrowed over taxed and underpaid.

The 0.5% reduction in base rate will have little effect on what is now the underlying problem. What it does is reduce the incomes of those who now rely on income from their savings, many of whom have seen their values wiped out in stock market investments.

Liquidity must be injected directly into the pockets of “Joe Public”, that means far reaching cuts in indirect taxation NOW.

There is NO room for more dithering from G Brown or Alistair (Orville) Darling
88

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 08:57:54
93

No you don't. You've never stepped foot in Scotland.

Express away, I will never deny anybody thier right to an opinion on the subject at hand. Unlike yourself.
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:00:08
96

I thought you were concerned about the issues?
What a hypocrite getting bogged in personal posts.
Stones and glass houses sunshine.
90

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 09:02:07
97

awwwww. Didums. Big word for you "hypocrite". Use it wisely.

Right, to hand. We're doomed. We have borrowed too much and over inflated the housing market. Where has all the money gone though?
91

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:06:24
98

The money has all gone into a few selective pockets as it usually does.
Dont you just love conservative capitalism when it all goes to plan?
92

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:08:35
98 Dave
"Where has all the money gone though?"
That,in a sense, encapsulates the issue. Much of the talk about £billions refers to assets as opposed to actual cash but assets are only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for them. The housing market is a classic example. Many of the assets of the banks are in terms of mortgages on peoples houses. If the housing market slumps then the assets of the banks slump.
93

Dave,

Western Isles 09/10/2008 09:09:24
Whose pockets though Such? Money just doesn't dissappear so somebody(s) is sitting on a hugh pile of it.

The banks have stopped lending to each other but surely they still have money to lend?
94

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 09/10/2008 09:15:17
Oh god this whole financial collapse is devastating, the world is on the brink and millions of people are dying. Yet I still managed to commute 30 miles to work to earn enough cash to pay these bankers a huge bonus...Talk about Mountains and Molehills, who cares if the bank manager loses his job he deserves to be treated to a healthy dose of reality as a punishment for his greed.
95

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:27:40
101

Exactly the money is still there as Ugly for once correctly says as assets and shifted investments i.e from shares to natural resourses property even arms and weapons which is very profitable these days.
96

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:30:38
103

Its happening to us within the union as well numbnuts. this scale of catastrophe doesnt affect nor concern itself with political union of parliaments.
What this does highlight though is Scotland complete helplessness to deal with its own problems within the union.
97

Prudence,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:49:22
"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and money." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole."
Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown University, highly esteemed by his former student, William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.

"The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis] to fulfill the long-held promise of a New World Order " George Herbert Walker Bush.

98

The Strategist,

09/10/2008 10:11:49
#103 tommytommy

A fair question which I was actually discussing last night with some friends. Here's my take on it.

First and foremost if Scotland had been independent then it is very unlikely that we would have had the problem in the first place. In addition and just as importantly I don't believe the rump of the UK would have had the same problem either.

The reason for my saying this is that we would now be running our economy in a far more balanced fashion (more manufacturing/product devt etc) similar to the Norwegians because of course we would have had the benefit of oil. As a consequence, what we think of now as large banks (RBS and HBOS) would probably be much smaller and concentrating more on supporting regionally biased operations rather than attempting to satisfy mainly London based fund managers by pushing for excessive and what's turned out to be highly risky growth strategies and activities that are not particularly economically patriotic.

A smaller UK without large oil revenues would of course been less able to fund Thatcher's economic restructuring in the 80s and so the likelihood of bank deregulation and the growth in City activities would have been small and the shift towards what is called the Anglo Saxon economic model would probably never have happened.


99

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 10:18:54
#s 20, 22m etc URSUS ARCTOS HORRIBILUS

This is Latin for "Horrible/Fightening Arctic Bear (Polar Bear?)".

Would ye be Canadian, by the way?
100

The Strategist,

09/10/2008 10:18:55
Actually Iceland is not "the model" that an independent Scotland is likely to have followed because Iceland's economy is very different. Norway's model is the most likely one for us to have followed.

101

kallaskander,

09/10/2008 10:19:00
Isn`t it amazing?

Now that the fiasco is slowly building up to unimagined heights so called world leaders call for time.

The same people and nations that paved the way for what is happening at the moment treaty by treaty and contract by contract and thereby abolishing the system of Milton Keynes which held the world economy stable for years demand international rules and regulations today.

Isn`t it ironic?

First of all US America who drove the globalisation without mercy as long as it was in her interest now cries wolf because she is hit maybe the hardest. Most probably the demage is the greatest in the Land of the Free. And who did this huge damage?

Where did the the financial zunami originate?
At the moment the US are keen to stem the tide. Small wonder.
Have they learned? Will they?

If there are international measures being taken the rest of the world should see to it that they help the whole world not only the short term interests of some incabable finance jugglers.

It is always the same with us human beings it seems: We are intelligent enough to do it. But not intelligent enough to do it not.

That does not only apply to finance.
102

Vlad Tepes,

Snagov 09/10/2008 10:19:29
"New World Order: Global co-operation, nationalisation and state intervention" in 2006 the Stern Review predicted that all this, and more, would have to take place if global markets were not to fail. Our leaders did not act, and we did not force them to. If the underlying issues are not addressed this could prove to be the tip of the iceberg.
103

frank mcbride,

lusitania 09/10/2008 10:33:56
# Suchaparcelofrogues.

You input to any thread is garbage, generally offensive and disruptive.

You can, therefore, legitimately be classed a Troll.

Your Trolling, on behalf of your Unionist masters, may have had some effect had it not been, for the fact, that your handler attempted to amplify your stupidity by introducing us to Ugly George.

Begone Troll.
104

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 10:35:43
TheStrategist (110): "The reason for my saying this is that we would now be running our economy in a far more balanced fashion (more manufacturing/product devt etc) similar to the Norwegians because of course we would have had the benefit of oil."

This deserves to be debunked. You seem to have forgotten that the Norwegians had a very similar financial crisis in the early 1990s, affecting some 2/3 of their banking system and resulting in part-nationalization of their three largest banks; see

http://www.norges-bank.no/templates/article____13822.aspx

"attempting to satisfy mainly London based fund managers"

Those nasty people in London again. Of course, Scots never do that.

"A smaller UK without large oil revenues would of course been less able to fund Thatcher's economic restructuring in the 80s"

Oil income was important in the latte 1970s and very early 1980s, but had ceased to be so by, say, 1984: for most of the past quarter-century, the Treasury oil tax-take has been roughly 1% of English GDP. In any case, the main cost of Thatcher's restructuring was unemployment benefit, so losing Scotland earlier would have helped Thatcher. If anything, without Scotland, I suspect that England would have become more dominated by finance, not less.
105

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 09/10/2008 10:37:51
Are Fred Goodwin and Tom McKillop staying in position or being replaced? Anyone know ?
106

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 10:38:28
kallaskander (113): "thereby abolishing the system of Milton Keynes which held the world economy stable for years demand international rules and regulations today."

Important though the town of Milton Keynes is, you're presumably referring to John Maynard Keynes, and presumably the Bretton Woods agreement?
107

Cheezy,

EK 09/10/2008 10:51:32
The New World Order??? yes this is really what is happening!!! yeah its takin over the world we are all going to become one!! there setting us up so we can all live in harmony and be controlled!!! eh NOT!!! what a load of paranoid mince!!!

People who have commented on this are blatantly not right in the head!! i mean whos at the head of this world order??? whats the point in all these stupid conspiracies??? its people who thought stupid paranoid thoughts in the first place that caused the negative thoughts that have brought the world economy to the brink of collapse!

lets think seriously for a moment!! come on!!!
108

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 10:52:02
tommytommy(103): "The happenings of the past few days seem to have stopped the Nationalists in their tracks."

Scottish nationalists possibly. I think it's helping English nationalism.

"If RBS and HBOS had gone to the wall in an independent Scotland where would the Scottish economy be today?"

The English government would presumably have assumed control of their English components, as occurred for Kaupthing today. Since the vast majority of depositors are English, both banks would have seen their capital base reduced to near zero, had a run occurred. The liability to Scotland would have presumably been in the hundreds of billions -- the only source of income on this scale would be to securitize oil, or to simply deed it to England. However, since such bank failure would also cause England enormous problems, I suspect there would then have been a joint nationalization of both banks by the English and Scottish governments, with the former the dominant partner: RBS and HBOS would have essentially become English banks. In other words, had Scotland been independent, it would not be about to become an English economic dependency. Plus ca change . . .


"I would like to know what would have happened in Scotland if it had been independently governed because it looks from here that its economic survival is dependent on support from central government and the Bank of England."

By central government", presumably you mean English taxpayers, who provide some 90% of the UK tax take? It's useful to remember the source of these funds.
109

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 10:52:38
107

"Dont let off steam at me .It doesnt answer the case for Nationalism."

What are you on about? the global financial meltdown doesnt present a case for or against national independence nor for or against political union.
Its a global financial meltdown kicked off by the global war for oil resourses under the false lable of a war on terror.
Your the phuqing troll trying to pass this off as some case against Scotlands Independent aspirations because you have no real arguments nor can you build a case to present against it.
110

Doh,

09/10/2008 10:56:26
#118

Isnt most of Bretton Woods now defunct (currency control etc)?

111

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 10:56:28
108

If there were solid proof there would be no conspiricy it would be a fact you prat.
Cash for honours is a conspiricy theory simply because the police are not allowed to investigate and prosecute.
112

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 10:57:16
120: "it would not be about to become an English economic dependency. Plus ca change . . ."

Of course this should have read "it would be about to become an English economic dependency. Plus ca change . . ."
113

Florence,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:57:19
18 BRING THEM ON: The global financial crisis is all the fault of Alex Salmond and the SNP. And let us not forget what the IMF says - that Britain is the most ill-equipped country to deal with the present situation. Another blunder by Salmond. Maybe it would have been better if Gordon Brown had been in charge. Down with Eck! Three cheers for Gordon and Alistair.


114

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 10:58:29
Doh (122): "Isnt most of Bretton Woods now defunct (currency control etc)?"

Bits are, bits aren't. The IMF was one of the organizations created at Bretton Woods, for example.
115

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:02:18
120

"If RBS and HBOS had gone to the wall in an independent Scotland where would the Scottish economy be today?"


"Well with a 30 year oil fund to cushion the blow a damn site better off than we are now I would imagine.

Oil income was important in the latte 1970s and very early 1980s, but had ceased to be so by, say, 1984: for most of the past quarter-century, the Treasury oil tax-take has been roughly 1% of English GDP. In any case, the main cost of Thatcher's restructuring was unemployment benefit, so losing Scotland earlier would have helped Thatcher. If anything, without Scotland, I suspect that England would have become more dominated by finance, not less"

This utter sh*te isnt even a poor formulated opinion nor mistaken conjecture based on poorly researched data but simply A BARED FACED LIE politically motivated.
It doesnt matter how many logons you use you cant hide behind yer posts.

How can anybody in there right mind support something they have to lie so blatently and so often about?
116

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:04:04
#108

Scorn and cheek are poor substitutes for knowledge.
For years and years and years the representatives of the Global Banking elite (Rockefeller, Kissinger, the Council on Foreign Relations crowd etc) have talked more or less openly about their desire for a World Government.
A "New World Order" as they themselves call it.
Now we find ourselves in a situation brought about by banking practices, which promises to deliver a "New World Order".... probably a World Banking Authority of some kind to deal with the crisis.
It's all just coincidence I suppose?
Coupled with the fact that Western Governments have for many years been preparing for total societal meltdown and martial law, it seems likely that this is all planned.
Check out the writings of Georgetown University professor Carroll Quigley.

117

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 11:14:38
suchaloony (127): ""If RBS and HBOS had gone to the wall in an independent Scotland where would the Scottish economy be today?"

"Well with a 30 year oil fund to cushion the blow a damn site better off than we are now I would imagine."

I've allowed for that already: RBS and HBOS have liabilities in the trillions. After the oil fund had been exhausted, you would be left with a debt in the hundreds of billions, much of it to England. There's just no bad in this scenario for we evil English.

"It doesnt matter how many logons you use you cant hide behind yer posts."

When have I ever hid my views on English nationalism in these posts? Why do you believe I have several logons? Have you ever considered anafranil?

118

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:17:44
""We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other
great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises
of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan
for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the
world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The
supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the
national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
(David Rockefeller, speaking before the Trilateral Commission in Baden-Baden, Germany
1991)


"Revolution, flashmobs, and brain chips. A grim vision of the future"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/09/frontpagenews.news
119

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:31:14
129

Again with the dishonest sh*te what liablities in their trillions?????????????
Your equating HBOS and RBS debt to the whole debt of every financial institute in the Western hemisphere.
The total UK debt is about 2.1 trillion.
I dont give a phuq about yer English nationalism in fact I support it you phuqs only belong with yerselfs nobody else wants you which is why you obviously felt the need to impose yerselves on the world.
120

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 11:32:53
You can download Carroll Quigleys book "Tragedy and Hope" for free here.....

http://www.archive.org/details/TragedyAndHope

.....and his book "The Anglo-American Establishment" here.....

http://www.archive.org/details/TheAnglo-americanEstablishment

(Carroll Quigley was Bill Clintons mentor at Georgetown University.)
121

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:35:24
132

It isnt necessary to read about something you experiance and deal with every day.
122

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:43:02
134

He is not an English nationalist he is a lying sh*t stirring party political troll with the latest propaganda statements and "facts" at his fingertips to put out by order.
123

Cheezy,

EK 09/10/2008 11:45:33
#134 spot on.

whys the english readin the scotsman anyway?? w.t.f!
124

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 11:56:05
suchap (131): "Again with the dishonest sh*te what liablities in their trillions?????????????"

The liabilities of RBS are listed here:

http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?fstype=ii&q=NYSE:RBS

You can find the liabilities of HBOS similarly. Both have assets and liabilities in the trillions of pounds. Sadly, their assets might be rather poorly valued. All banter aside, it's clearly news to you that the fundamental problem of European banks is that they're very large relative to national GDP. Such ignorance must be bliss at this time.
125

jimmyt,

scotland 09/10/2008 11:57:59
#134 and #135

Oh dear. I fear Fairfax is right on this one, its unfortunately the case that the English and Scottish economies are so inter-dependent that the English couldnt afford RBS/natwest and HBOS to fail and therefore they would have been nationalised by the independent English government. The Scots would have lost their iconic BOS brand to the English.

Not sure how Fairfax gets to the Scots actually losing money though AND owing the English money... clearly Scottish shareholders would have lost everyting if that is what Fairfax meant but their losses would be capped at the equity they hold and losing the brand is bad enough.

I think whats become clear in the last few weeks is that independence would be nice but practically it doesnt make sense as we are too inter-dependent on each other. The Norway example is a false one for me Im afraid for the various arguments put forward on earlier threads.
126

The Strategist,

09/10/2008 11:59:27
#116 Fairfax

I am of course fully aware that Norway had a similar although less extreme problem in the 90s. However, in terms of the development of their economy Norway hardly blinked so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

127

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 12:01:23
FedUp (134): "You try to paint this picture of how Scotland is dependent on England yet it is the Enlgish who have repeatedly sought to exploit Scotland's resources over centuries of selfish interference in our affairs."

You misunderstood: I want England to exploit Scotland.

"Don't worry about Scottish nationalism."

I'm very worried -- you might stay in the Union given the current debacle.

"You oddly seem to forget that Britain, with its 90% of English tax payers, is suffering as much and often more from this crisis that everyone else."

I haven't forgotten. I'm particularly worried by the billions that might be expended on RBS and HBOS.
128

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 12:03:04
jimmyt (138): "Not sure how Fairfax gets to the Scots actually losing money though AND owing the English money"

I'll accept that I was exaggerating here for teasing purposes. It's cheap, I know, but black humour is clearly the order of the day.
129

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 12:06:34
The Strategist (139): "I am of course fully aware that Norway had a similar although less extreme problem in the 90s."

Agreed.

"However, in terms of the development of their economy Norway hardly blinked"

My Norwegian colleagues don't see it that way: they nationalized 3 of their largest banks and had to expend large amounts of capital stabilizing some 2/3 of their financial system.

"so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make."

You had specifically claimed that Scotland would be less likely to suffer a credit crisis because of its style of management, which you likened to Norway's style. I merely pointed out the obvious counterexample.
130

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:10:08
137

So now you post links to prove yer lying? and you post as yet another logon jimmyt to prove yer a troll?
Why dont you just post as yer usual AM2?
why do you even bother do you think we will stop posting if your not here to stir it up?
131

Mr Custard,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 12:10:15
# suchaparcelofrogues

You really are quite an unpleasant person. I would hate to come across you in real life. You're also the only person who resorts to using swear words on here.

You accuse people on here left, right centre of multiple logins, of lying about where they come from and lying in general (I refer to post 135, complete with insult no less). Sorry, when I say lying in general I actually mean disagreeing with what you believe in, which in your mind equates to lying.

It really is pretty pathetic.
132

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:12:30
142

The point is obvious Norway had a problem Norway dealt with the problem because Norway has control over its own resourses Scotland has a problem Scotland is unable to deal with the problem because it doesnt control its own resourses.
133

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 12:41:39
New world order? aye right the instigators of this crises will walk away with billions and no chance of prosecution simply because they are above the laws of ordinary men and women.
That isnt a new world order thats the way the world has been since Adam and Eve.
134

ShoreBillyDave,

Snow Hill, MD, U.S.A. 09/10/2008 13:08:42
Thanks to drudgereport.com I read your news, but who the hell reads these comments?? And who cares?? These S.O.B.'s are going to do as they wish with or without our comments! I scarce think anyone in my Congress is paying much attention. I guess the left got what they wanted. I hope their happy. But unless the news media goes bust just like everyone else, no one will ever know who was REALLY at fault for this mess in the first place: COMMUNITY REINVESTMENT ACT OF 1977, signed into law by President Jimmy Carter. And the rest is history. Google it, and then you will know too, and then spread the word.
135

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 09/10/2008 13:16:35
149

Youre not even trying to hide the fact yer a sh*t stirring troll anymore. What a prize prat.
136

Reader11722,

New York, New York 09/10/2008 14:14:47
Endless bail-outs for zioni$t bankers, yet another infringement on U.S. rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, Wikipedia and Facebook.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing at Gitmo.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting illegal wars without declaration.
Impeach them all (both parties) and save this great country.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000083883
137

anonx,

england 09/10/2008 14:23:25
New World Order - exactly, it's becoming more and more noticeable every day, like watching a car crash in slow motion.

Whatever your opinion currently held, I could not recommend a more crucial time to watch David Icke's Freedom or Fascism DVD. Headlines for each day are listed if you scroll down his site at - www.davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/82/ as he pulls together information from around the globe.

We have to connect the dots to see what is happening all around us and where we are constantly being lead through constant manipulation.

Another interesting site - www.noliberties.com
138

jackolantyrn356,

USA 09/10/2008 14:31:25
I am profoundly disgusted to see that the GLobal new World Order may not be the best idea around the Planet. Here there was a CASCADING MELTDOWN OF MONEY MARKETS DUE TO SOME " BREAK THE BANK" TYPES WHO HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MILLIONS OF OUR ASSESSTS. But because the banks and lending institutions are now interconnected due to the New World Order idealists, the whole "shooting Match" is one its way to the sewer in rapid file. You can't put the financial dozen egg basket in without loosing too many eggs.
139

jackolantyrn356,

USA 09/10/2008 14:31:26
I am profoundly disgusted to see that the GLobal new World Order may not be the best idea around the Planet. Here there was a CASCADING MELTDOWN OF MONEY MARKETS DUE TO SOME " BREAK THE BANK" TYPES WHO HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MILLIONS OF OUR ASSESSTS. But because the banks and lending institutions are now interconnected due to the New World Order idealists, the whole "shooting Match" is one its way to the sewer in rapid file. You can't put the financial dozen egg basket in without loosing too many eggs.
140

jackolantyrn356,

USA 09/10/2008 14:31:27
I am profoundly disgusted to see that the GLobal new World Order may not be the best idea around the Planet. Here there was a CASCADING MELTDOWN OF MONEY MARKETS DUE TO SOME " BREAK THE BANK" TYPES WHO HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MILLIONS OF OUR ASSESSTS. But because the banks and lending institutions are now interconnected due to the New World Order idealists, the whole "shooting Match" is one its way to the sewer in rapid file. You can't put the financial dozen egg basket in without loosing too many eggs.
141

jimmyt,

09/10/2008 14:41:46
#149 Federalist

Nice idea but what's the point? Its either complete separation or stay as we are. Lets face it, Australia is a separate country. Why bother pretending? A true federal solution is the USA but that is not a million miles off what we have at the moment.
142

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 09/10/2008 15:12:42
What is amusing about the Unionist posters is their current passion for the Iceland example as a reason for Scotland staying within the Union. Last year's argument was that Scotland could not prosper alone without the security and prosperity of the City of London and the cash it generated.

The only observation I can make is that a country which relies on high finance to fuel its economy, instead of natural rescources and a productive workforce, is living in a fools' paradise, whether the country be Iceland or The United Kingdom.

We were told that independence would cost each of us £5,000. Apparently staying in the Union is to cost us £12,000. The desperation of the Unionists in their selective non sequitur comments must be because there is a byelection in the offing. They were coming out with similar bizarre statements prior to Glasgow East. They were remarkably quiet for a spell aftertwards but now they have returned as deluded as ever.
143

fritigern,

Inverness 09/10/2008 15:21:17
I have just come across a headline in the Sunday Telegraph for earlier this year : "13 Billion for City Bonuses". So before Brown taxes the rest of us to pay for bailing out his friends in the City, surely he should seize these ill-gotten bonuses. Clearly these were not earned, in any meaningful use of this word.

I personally would go further and force these crooks from the City to spend the rest of their lives (probably very short) in a council estate in South London, almost certainly a greater deterrent for future crooked financiers than a fine or a few days in an open prison.
144

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 15:29:08
#159 There may be some here who have used this to support the union or attack it - my own opinion is that it does not make much difference whether or not Scotland were independent - this crisis would still be happening.

If there were independence then, with the SNP's current economic policy, we would still have no control over our currency and monetary policy as we would be reliant on the pound and, implicitly, the Bank of England. Also, it seems that we would still have regulation carried out by the Financial Services Authority.

Unless the SNP seriously address these issues they are undermining their own case for independence. I am no fan of independence, as you well know, but if we were to go down that route then for god's sake do it right. An independent Scotland should have a Scottish Central Bank issuing a Scottish currency until such time as we decided to enter the Eurozone. An independent Scotland should also have its own regulator to govern how Scottish businesses, especially those in the financial sector based and registered here.
145

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 15:29:09
#159 There may be some here who have used this to support the union or attack it - my own opinion is that it does not make much difference whether or not Scotland were independent - this crisis would still be happening.

If there were independence then, with the SNP's current economic policy, we would still have no control over our currency and monetary policy as we would be reliant on the pound and, implicitly, the Bank of England. Also, it seems that we would still have regulation carried out by the Financial Services Authority.

Unless the SNP seriously address these issues they are undermining their own case for independence. I am no fan of independence, as you well know, but if we were to go down that route then for god's sake do it right. An independent Scotland should have a Scottish Central Bank issuing a Scottish currency until such time as we decided to enter the Eurozone. An independent Scotland should also have its own regulator to govern how Scottish businesses, especially those in the financial sector based and registered here.
146

Andra, Dundee,

09/10/2008 15:34:23
£500bn - where does it come from?
Correct me if I'm wrong....
Lots of people have lots of money (the Chinese, Arab oil counties, etc). They usually lend (save) their cash to western banks. However they are currently scared to lend to these banks - hence lack of liquidity.
However they are happy to lend to the UK Governement / BofE - so they lend it to the BofE who in turn lend it to the banks. It's the same money as before - it just gets to the banks by a slightly different route.
147

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 15:37:32
162 (cont) An independent Scotland should also have its own regulator to govern how Scottish businesses, especially those in the financial sector based and registered here, carry out their business.

Even with a truly independent central bank, currency and regulator the problem would still have been there - just maybe be a bit more manageable if they had, especially if they had followed the post 1991 Norwegian banking model (or would it have been the Irish model? Depends who's flavour of teh moment - deosn't it?).

A lot of ifs and buts here. Salmond has argued that the SNP would have regulated far more tightly but the evidence seems to be lacking. Ignoring the issue of who would be the regulator, it seems, if one considers his previous statements regards attracting financial institutions to a post-independence Scotland, that a post-independent Scotland would either have the same regulation as the rest of the UK or even less regulation.

This brings me back to my previous point - preventing such financial crisises from happening is not about independence but about political and economic management.
148

Andra, Dundee,

09/10/2008 15:43:02
Should the government be lending to UK banks?
This could be a major coup for UK banks - they have an opportunity to survive (and grow?) through this turmoil - while smaller banks (the UK's big five are quite big) from smaller countries (Iceland, Ireland, Belgium, etc) are dropping like flies because their governments are less able to support them.
So at the end of this the big UK banks could come out with less competition into a more profitable market. This is good news for Scotland where 2 of our big 5 are based.
Questions - could HBOS remain independent with this government support (was there ever a takeover by Lloyds or was that just a favour Llyods did for Brown and Darling to see HBOS through a rough patch?)
Question / suggestion - is this the Union Dividend? what are the comparisons with the Darien Scheme and the bail out of 1707?
149

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 09/10/2008 15:46:44
Federalist; I acknowledge the points you raise. I think an idependent Scotland would not bewise to have an independent central bank and currency. Norway has, but it posed difficulties when the oil price fell to $10. It is imperative that Scotland at least in the short term kept with Sterling even thought England had all the control over the currency. It would be no different from the present position. I think the Euro is the only sensible solution in the long term for all parts of the British Isles. Some small countries have their own currencies and they are sound e.g Singapore, Switzerland. Others - Zimbabwe - need I say more. I think the success is a strong economy based on stable finances and never growning larger than your economy can handle. That was where Iceland slipped up. It was deluded by its own apparent success. How could a country the population of Aberdeen grow an infrastructure of the size it did. Businesses which grow organically raqther than expand in a lash are always more likely to weather difficult periods.
150

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 09/10/2008 15:51:27
Fed; I agree entirely with your later posts.
151

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 09/10/2008 15:51:33
Fed; I agree entirely with your later posts.
152

The Strategist,

09/10/2008 15:53:05
#142 Fairfax

My Norwegial colleagues - who are all engineers not bankers or anything to do with the financial services sector - were not overly concerned and the proof is in the pudding because Norway's industry has gone from strength to strength.
153

Andra, Dundee,

09/10/2008 15:55:35
Many TV journalists take delight in saying that this is costing every tax payer so many thousand pounds as if we are all going to have to cough up.
Two points...
(1) it is borrowed money (see my post 163) we'll never have to pay this in tax
(2) it is not spending as in buying chocolate then eating it. This is investment which will hopefully make money. I don't yet know the structure of the investment but bank shares are very cheap - so now is a good time for the government to invest - the government (taxpayers) will maybe double their money!

Why can journalist never separate spending from investment? - Either because they don't understand or because it does not make sensational stories?

The bail out of the Northern Rock and B&B may not cost us anything (or we may loose a proportion of the investment). However any bail out of the savers with the Icelandic banks is a cost to the taxpayer that will never be paid back. Should the government be bailing out people who saved with foreign banks just to get an extra half percent interest. Surely the risk should lie with the saver?
154

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 16:01:53
#169 The Norwegians (and the Swedes), like every other independent nation, face exactly the same problems we face here. Their own central bank has had to take action to assist with the short-term financing issues of their banks. Moreover, the Petroleum fund has lost some value in recent months due to the fall in blue chip US stocks.

The key difference though is that they are better structured to handle the crisis because they have already gone through a previous financial crisis in 1991. They learnt from that crisis and implemented changes to ensure taht if it did happen again then they would be better placed to ride out the storm.
155

Nevsky,

Moscow 09/10/2008 16:04:19
164 Fed#

'This brings me back to my previous point - preventing such financial crisises from happening is not about independence but about political and economic management'

Totally agree and would say that it proves neither that Scotland would be in the kaka nor that Scotland would cruise through the crisis; we simple don't know.

The really galling point is that this is being hailed as unionists as why Scotland is better in the UK when the UK is probably second only to Iceland for being in the s**t.

Two banks have failed, a third forced into a merger and the others (except one) are in deep trouble and even the IMF has said today that the UK will be the worst performing economy next year; so let's be realistic about the UK.

The UK is surviving at the moment by the skin of it's teeth and only through an unheard of amount of subsidy and borrowing (which has to be paid for) and as i am writing the FTSE has closed down again.

This is as you have said about mis-management, by the government, the regulators and especially by the bankers but i would stake my life on the fact that no country will give up it's independence over it!
156

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 16:04:48
#170 You were right first time Andra. Going by the health scare stories with overblown risk assessments, most journalists appear to be mathematically inept.

It's a wonder they can complete their expenses claims forms .. .
157

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 16:14:26
#172 Been rather busy the last few days - as a consequence of helping my wife cope with a much-reduced wage budget for her retail establishment - anyone who says we are not heading for an economic slow-down or are not already in one is a liar.

It sort of brings it home to you when you are dealing with real people's lives and their incomes, having to reduce their hours, that capitalism as it stands is not a very nice animal.

That all being said, I don't believe that now is the time for recrimination and partisanship though. There will be time for that later.

I heard an excellent analogy of recent events and reactions here as compared to the US. The US is a house on fire where everyone is running around looking to blame some one for the fire - even if it is the person who has the hose putting out the fire. The UK is a house on fire but we are rallying around to put out the fire no matter what - we'll look after the fire has stopped to blame someone.

Perhaps it is good we are not in the middle of an election - we do need action that is supported by all of our parties - yesterday's actions are in my opinion the best way forward - I'll hopefully explain why in a later post.
158

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 16:35:12
BuckLoon (174): "Fairfax talks with great authority but little sense."

With which of my arguments, then, do you disagree? As long as you're not loopy, I'll be happy to debate rationally..

"Claims his superiority as a 'nationalist' by being English?"

I've made no such claim.

"See's in his foggy myopic way that the fall of HBoS and RBS could be a withering blow to Scotlands independence"

It's "sees", not "see's": if you wish to assay rhetoric, then first look to your grammar.

"whereas in real terms it could be the cost of nursing them through the crises that causes the real pain."

As I've stated above, the cost of HBOS and RBS worries me.

"Better you take a deep breath and give some thought to your position and attitude Fairfax."

Which position, precisely? My primary contribution above has been to conjecture an alternate reality in which HBOS and RBS cripple an independent Scotland -- after all, there are several Scottish posts creating alternate Scottish utopias; it's clearly time to provide a dystopia. I suspect you're merely skimming.


159

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 16:39:03
The Strategist (169): "My Norwegial colleagues - who are all engineers not bankers or anything to do with the financial services sector - were not overly concerned"

In that case, given their ignorance, I suggest you ignore their financial advice in future. My colleagues are academics, although some former students are bankers there, and all were concerned that the large-scale nationalization would fail. Forthunately, of course, it didn't. I hope our similar plan fares as well as that of Norway.
160

Nevsky,

Moscow 09/10/2008 16:44:01
175 Fed#

Well there will certainly be a recession now and i just hope that the government can free up cash as quickly for those affected as they have done for the banks; they have shown just how quickly they can move when they have to.

They will find it very difficult to explain why they can't inject a few million after the billions they have jugled with and found over the past few days.

However i had a sobering moment yesterday when having a drink. Some Russians were talking over what is happening here in the markets and in the world and one of them said that if things got too bad Russians would not invest their money in anything other than flour (to eat) and Vodka (to sell)..the hardest currency there is in hard times...and he wasn't joking!


161

Fairfax,

09/10/2008 16:48:30
Nevsky (172): "The really galling point is that this is being hailed as unionists as why Scotland is better in the UK when the UK is probably second only to Iceland for being in the s**t."

Our position is not wonderful, but I think second place has to go to Switzerland, given their GDP, population and finance exposure.

"and as i am writing the FTSE has closed down again."

The FTSE is an index provided by the Financial Times. The London Stock Exchange has not closed early today, to my knowledge. To what are you referring?
162

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

09/10/2008 17:19:51
#178 From what I have read and haerd one of the strings attached to the £50 billion part nationalisation is that banks will have to ease up credit for small businesses and home-owners whilst tightening up other forms of credit. I think it means a clamp down on credit cards and cheap unsecured persoanl loans. That can only be a good thing in the long-run.
163

mac77,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 17:34:04
Good God!! I have wasted 25 mins of my life reading all this uninformed paranoid drivel. Goodbye!!
164

Rami,

Derry, New Hampshire U.S. 09/10/2008 18:46:59
#181 I also concur........:-(
165

The Strategist,

09/10/2008 19:45:25
#177 Fairfax

If your chums were worried that large scale nationalization would fail then they were of course very wrong.

Industrially Norway has gone from strength to strength whilst having maintained a strong but "subservient" financial services sector that works very much in Norway's interest.

The fear I have here is that again this part nationalisation will probably work but that the financial service sector's relationship with the rest of the economy will not change leaving us again short of risk equity capital to start and nurture worthy businesses and to spin out businesses from universities. The big danger is that the banks in particular will simply resume their old ways and drive house prices back up, lending to private equity companies and so on and so forth.

The only way to prevent that of course is for Govt to insist on them changing their ways but I'm afraid they almost certainly won't.
166

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 19:56:36
172 Nevski

"even the IMF has said today that the UK will be the worst performing economy next year"

You really need to be more thorough and careful in quoting info. The IMF said no such thing. What they said was the the forecast reduction in forecast growth in the was the largest of the major economies and that the UK economy may contract by 0.1% next year. If you actually read the report it states quite clearly that it expects the contraction on the economies of Italy and Spain to be worse that of the UK. It is also worth noting that predictions for the Irish economy indicare a more severe contraction than that of the UK.

AS I said, please quote details accurately. Also, I am still waiting for the details of all these people you claimed yesterday were accusing "Jocks" of running down the English economy on the Times Forum. Where were they? I couldn't find them.
167

Pilton D,

North Edinburgh 09/10/2008 20:08:42
New World Order yer havin' a laugh! They're doing a great job creating it aren't they? Ha, ha.

All you conspiracy theorists wake up and study the real world instead of rantings from half baked authors, scientists, bankers, economists or DAVID ICKE! Come on, he was laughable first time round. A little less smoking of the green may help you lot.

In turn learn a bit about the dominant system we have in the world - Capitalism, you heard of that? The one and only reason for the mess today, the world's previous messes and all future ones too.

Then also learn about the other system that should be our way of life - Socialism. Convert to that and argue for a proper, fair and true answer to our problems.

Whilst you spend your days arguing away on message boards about paranoid theories relating to Rockefeller, Bush, Brown, the bankers, the terrorists, the pope, god or any other devil that's trying to control us all you forget one important fact - it's another day wasted whilst the Capitalists continue on to their next boom followed by bust, with only the few and not the many in society benefiting.

Think about it - it's divide and rule. They love the fact that you lot are holed up in darkened rooms waiting for Armageddon, because your not outside with us in society arguing the case against their greed and lack of accountability.

Get out from behind the curtains and join us - smash their system, don't hide form it!

Bring back socialism and make the fat cats sweep our streets!

Socialist Republic of Scotland would be a start folks.
168

Ralph Ryder,

Cheshire 09/10/2008 20:38:41
"The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor" - Helen Keller
How much more proof do you need as to the truth in this quote? British Politicans didnt bail out the ship building industry in its time of need. Neither did they bail out the coal industry in its hour of need. Neither did they bail out the steel industry in its hour of need... etc etc. But there's is always cash to bail out the failed capitalist financial system.
Some people in the UK are losing their sight because the government will not pay for the operation that would not only save their sight, but would save more money that the operation would cost and for after care - retraining etc of the unfortunate soul.
Cancer suffers are being denied life ehancing/saving drugs because they are 'too expensive.' But 500billion is suddenly available for the fat cats of banks that only two years ago were enjoying incredible profits. Where has that money gone. Buying mansions and yatchs no doubt.
The government, no sorry WE the PEOPLE are now part owners in the banking system. What part do WE own? the part that makes no profit I guess, but if it ever does return to the black, you can bet it will be sold back to the fat cats at a 'incentive to buy price.'
Privatise the Profits. Socalise the Losses.
Privatise the Gain. Socalise the Pain.
This bail out is coating us more than £13,000 each to help some banks buyout others (with 12 billion of our money) - with the loss making sections coming to us no doubt!
And millions will go out at the next election and vote for the same crowd crying "there no alternative."
"The essence of oligarchical rule is not father-to-son inheritance, but the persistence of a certain world-view and a certain way of life ... A ruling group is a ruling group so long as it can nominate its successors... Who wields power is not important, provided that the hierarchical structure remains always the sam
169

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 20:43:53
186 Ralph
"Politicans didnt bail out the ship building industry in its time of need. Neither did they bail out the coal industry in its hour of need. Neither did they bail out the steel industry in its hour of need... etc etc. But there's is always cash to bail out the failed capitalist financial system."

Incorrect I'm afraid. All of the industries you mentioned have either been totally or partially nationaalissed since WW2
170

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 20:46:55
186 Ralph
Correction : 2nd paragraph should read

Incorrect I'm afraid. All of the industries you mentioned have either been totally or partially nationaalised at some stage since WW2
171

Ralph Ryder,

Cheshire 09/10/2008 21:08:45
188George.
I take your point. but they didnt help when they should have resulting in thousands of workers being dumped and whole communities shattered. (but hey, they were only working class so what politician gives a dam?)
Nationalisation came to a halt with Thatcher and privatization became the thing because they (Capitalists) were scared of the unions/people getting too much control.
Strange how corporations have since been allowed (with government blessing) to get control of so many aspects of our lives - including the financial system, news media, and now sliding into health care and encouraging a US style medical system,
With an estimated 60 million without health care in the US we should be very wary about going down this road.
172

santa cova,

09/10/2008 22:19:15
#18 Supporting your English masters to the end?

F
173

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 23:12:21
#42, Forget about independance. The UK is part of Europe which is OWNED by the IMF.
174

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 23:21:42
Any post that tells you this buyout is actually selling your country to the IMF is filtered out by this bank owned site.
175

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 09/10/2008 23:25:36
This bank owned site does not like the linking of the privately owned IMF with the new world order and one world government.
176

rosethistleshamrock,

Thickofit, USA 10/10/2008 00:34:02
Listen up people, might not banks lending to persons without means have precipitated the crisis just a teensy bit? Really sick of all the balderdash, quit blaming individuals and blame corruption in whomsoever it exists, will you? Don't allow the vampires among us to suck the brains AND life out of you.
177

pigsinspace,

rugby 10/10/2008 11:34:51
One thing is for certain. The very rich will stay rich and the poor will stay poor. Nothing will be done to alter anything fundamental, except to accelerate the coming of the New World Order.I used to wonder about that one, whether it was true or just fantasy, but too many powerful people have let slip hints about it. Its on its way.
One of the things that scares me most about this is that soon America will have nothing left but a huge military machine.And the will to use it. While China, Japan and the genuinly rich countries take over the world by simply buying it, will America retaliate by trying to fight there way out of trouble ? The record here is not good. If McCain should win the election (as much a matter of programming the Diebold machines as actual votes cast )then lok out for more wars. He is on Youtube promising war to everyone he meets. Thats John's solution, it's the American Way.
178

El.,

Ireland 28/01/2009 20:25:34
New World Order/Scottish Ritual Freemasonry.

Remember World War II and attempts at the 'Final Solution'?

So do others!

* Scottish Ritual Freemasonry's H.Q. is at 96 George Street, Edinburgh, Scotland - builders of the U.S. White House.

* The Knesset (Masonic Lodge) was specifically designed and built by Rothschild.

* Adolf Hitler was a Rothschild offshoot.

* Watch the globally and strategically placed 'black dots'/'traditional handshakes' as they tour the world, and the picture emerges e.g. Bush-Blair-Brown-Rothschild!

There is growing awareness of Mountbatten-Windsor (British royal family) attempts to hinder public awareness of these details. The attempt also is to try to thwart understanding and accountability for their intended World War Three evils.

See websites e.g. elizaearsman.com
179

victor forest,

09/07/2009 06:41:00
Everybody seems to know what is going on....but are you prepared? I would like to prepare by with drawing all money from banks, being with family members, talking with friends. Check this website: newworldorderwar.com/

 

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