Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


A total triumph and an utter defeat

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 07 February 2008
IN THE end, the howl of delight said it all. Alex Salmond had won the biggest parliamentary battle of his career – piloting the first SNP Budget through the Scottish Parliament.
The First Minister started the final, crucial day of Budget deliberations delivering an ultimatum to his opponents: reject this and face a snap election. He ended it revelling in the humiliation of his Labour opponents. They had begun by criticising the Budget, then added an amendment and finally abstained on the whole package, including their amendment.

A triumphant Mr Salmond said later: "I am delighted. Parliament has voted through a historic first Budget and Labour and the Liberal Democrats seem utterly disorientated."

Click here for the Scottish Budget: Key policy plans laid out

Labour leaders defended their decision to abstain, despite getting their amendment passed, insisting they were making a point that the Budget was flawed.

But political opponents warned that Labour's baffling voting behaviour cast further shadows over Wendy Alexander, the party's embattled leader, who is still awaiting the judgment of the Electoral Commission on an illegal donation to her leadership election campaign fund.

A preoccupied Ms Alexander hurried away from Holyrood, leaving it to her deputies to explain Labour's strange approach to the vote. There were some suggestions Mr Salmond's threat to call an election had frightened Labour off from voting against the Budget, but that was denied by party leaders.

However, there was no doubt that last night's vote, at last, has given the SNP administration a licence to govern.

For nine months, the Scottish Government has put forward policies, not knowing whether it would have the money to carry them out. Now it has the resources to freeze council tax across the country, abolish the Forth and Tay bridge tolls, complete the M74 extension and start scrapping prescription charges.

John Swinney, the Finance Secretary, who has cajoled and threatened MSPs from all parties since last summer in an attempt to get this financial package through, was clear last night on how important the vote was.

"Everybody said at the outset that this would be our biggest challenge. We have just passed that challenge," he said.

The Budget was carried on the back of support from the Tories and the independent MSP Margo MacDonald. Both were promised money for their own policy proposals as Mr Swinney tried to secure a majority for the minority government.

The final vote was 64 MSPs in favour (the SNP, the Conservatives and Ms Macdonald); one against (Labour MSP Cathy Craigie, who either voted that way by mistake or because she did not know the party position) and 60 abstentions (the rest of the Labour MSPs, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens).

The SNP's chances of success were in doubt until Mr Swinney made his opening speech, offering fresh concessions to opposition MSPs.

The Tories decided to support the Budget after he said he would do as they wanted and accelerate the business rates relief scheme.

The Greens also got what they wanted when Mr Swinney announced an extra £4 million for bus operators to help keep fares down and encourage greater use of public transport.

This was enough to persuade the two Green MSPs to abstain on the Budget – the vital, last piece in the jigsaw, giving the SNP the numbers necessary to get the package through.

These final concessions came on top of earlier moves to get the Tories and Greens on board, including an extra £10 million for an additional 300 police officers and £4 million more to fight climate change.

The Tories were derided by Labour and Liberal Democrat MSPs for helping the SNP.

Tavish Scott, the Liberal Democrats' finance spokesman, described the settlement as a "Nat-Con" budget. He labelled Mr Salmond's threat to resign if the Budget had not been passed as "a landmark strop".

Iain Gray, for Labour, said the Budget deal was nothing more than a "tartan Tory tango", and he also derided Mr Salmond's threats to quit.

"The unedifying pantomime of a First Minister threatening resignation from behind the safety of deals already done is an act of vacuous bravado which sums up his government's approach to this whole process," he said

But Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, was delighted with her party's achievements. "We have used our influence to deliver key policies, which will mean more police, lower taxes and a new national drugs strategy," she said.

"Nearly two years ago, the Scottish Conservatives first argued for a new politics and an end to coalition government. We fought the Holyrood elections promising to work issue by issue, vote by vote, doing what was right for the people of Scotland by sticking to our policies and principles.

"We have done that today, and Scotland is the winner."

During the debate, Mr Swinney had appeared to win the short-term political battle with Labour, outflanking his opponents by accepting their amendment, which called on the Scottish Government to find ways of promoting skills and protecting the vulnerable. This was some way short of Labour's attempt earlier in the process to try to secure funds for skills academies or vocational colleges.

Mr Swinney decided to accept it, the SNP voted for it and the amendment was passed.

Yet, despite having changed the Budget in the way they wanted by having their amendment passed, Labour leaders then decided to abstain on the Budget itself – a decision that astonished everyone else in the parliament.

"You couldn't make it up," Miss Goldie said.

Mr Gray defended his party's position, claiming Labour had secured an amendment to the Budget and registered its view that the financial package was flawed. "We didn't have to vote for the Budget, because the SNP, the Tories and Margo MacDonald were all going to vote for it anyway," he said.

KEY POINTS

BUDGET WILL DELIVER:

• Council tax freeze
• Forth and Tay bridge tolls scrapped
• £11bn for health (£90m to cut waiting times)
• £2.5bn for education (process starts to cut class sizes)
• £880m for roads (including M74 extension)

CONCESSIONS MADE:

• £10m extra in 2008-9
• £40m extra over three years for extra 500 police
• £4.3m extra for community climate challenge fund
• £4m extra to keep bus fares down
• Accelerated business rates relief for small firms
• New fund to help Edinburgh as capital

Click here for the Scottish Budget: Key policy plans laid out

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 February 2008 9:11 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Government spending
 
1

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 00:04:30
Another history making triumph for the SNP! Mr Salmond is fast becoming the Parliamentarian of the Century!
2

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 00:06:09
The last paragraph of the above article really does sum up the calibre of the opposition!
3

Colkitto,

River Clyde 07/02/2008 00:07:51
Total humiliation for Labour who have become a laughing stock.
The Lib-Dems are heading for political oblivion.
How on earth did these clowns manage to govern for 8 years ?
A scary thought.........
4

Salmond - Leam-leat,

07/02/2008 00:09:35
Just printed off the picture on the top of the page and pinned it on my dart board

5

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 00:10:23
I thought it was interesting that the two MSPs from the Green party were able to co-operate, win concessions, and still abstain. The Lib Dems, on the other hand, abstained and won no concessions. What a wasted opportunity. What exactly was their strategy? I can't help feel that the Lib Dems, like Labour, have been seduced by short termism and the belief that they could railroad the budget. Derek Brownlee was wrong when he said this is the final humiliation for Labour; I suspect there's more to come.
6

Salmond - Leam-leat,

07/02/2008 00:12:38
Superb news on the new fund for Edinburgh. It is about time that the capital city got special treatment as well as extra cash.

Hopefully the money will be diverted away from Glasgow.
7

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 00:13:55
#3,

They didn't. No 10 Downing St operated every Labour FM puppet/muppet, and the Scottish public are now realising the pointlessness in supporting any Unionist party.

The SNP represent real policies that will change Scotland for the better!
8

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 00:13:55
Under this government Scotland continues to go from strength to strength.

Frankly I'm on the verge of no longer giving a damn what happens to Wendy - she's now totally irrelevant. The rest of Labour MSPs are mediocre, boorish politicians only capable of surviving in the one-party local authorities in the past. In short, she's a liability to them but there's nobody capable of replacing her. Perfect. Lets leave them to rot.
9

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 00:14:18
Excellent result from the party that cares about Scotland and all its people
First class performance - well done Alex and Co.
10

An ­English­ Voice,

07/02/2008 00:14:34
6. Am2, even I, not appreciating the SNP much, must admit they seem to have done very well in getting the budget passed with zero opposition
11

An ­English­ Voice,

07/02/2008 00:16:38
I must say I am a bit dissappointed that Unionists didn't have the courage of their convictions to vote the separatists down. Will be hard to argue against the budget provisions having not cast votes against.

12

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 00:19:22
AM2,

You almost gave a full blown vote of confidence there....are you drunk?

You've got to admit, Alex Salmond is light years ahead of the opposition. He's got them spinning round, like disorietated wee bairns and has them jumping through his carefully prepared hoops. The trio of Salmond, Swinney and Sturgeon are easily a class apart.
13

Al Pie Ed,

Harrods 07/02/2008 00:26:20
Someone on the previous thread mentioned Pauline McNeil's harpie impression as screened on Newsnight. She has previous form for this sort of behaviour, e.g. election night at the SECC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDdc-UshMVQ

PS Am I alone in thinking Iain Gray is the spitting image of Quagmire out of 'Family Guy'?
14

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 00:27:28
It's a work night AM2, and you're about to have another bad day!
15

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 00:29:35
#19,­­­boudica,
Have you any 'big hitters' in mind?
Dougie Alexander?
16

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 00:31:11
#20 & #17... Yes, agree (and hope!) that the administration should now be objectively judged on what do now the budget has been approved...

An academic question - has Salmond shot his bolt by threatening to resign (when we on all sides we knew it wouldn't come to that)? Is there anything in future where he'd genuinely need a vote of confidence to keep the show on the road? How would that be affected now? Hmmm....
17

Salmond - Leam-leat,

07/02/2008 00:34:01
#22 Yes you are alone.
18

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 00:35:34
In some ways I wish the opposition had voted down the budget. An election would have been the end for the Libdums and New Labour Sleaze and Corruption.
Out thought and outwitted at every turn!!!
Has Wendy been on TV explaining yesterday's strategy??
19

Salmond - Leam-leat,

07/02/2008 00:37:35
#20 Wardog............ yes the freeze on council tax will be a show stopper.

Especially for me. I live off my Share investments.
So I will go from paying £260 a month to paying nothing at all.

All my water supplies, bin collections and kids education for free.

THAK YOU ALEX SALMOND.

20

Arthur X,

07/02/2008 00:44:50
Winners: the SNP, the Greens, Scottish people, the Tories. In that order.
Losers: Gordon Brown, Wendy, the Lib Dems, the rest of Labour. In that order.

An unedifying spectacle from the erstwhile Executive of Limited Ambition. Their incompetence isn't to be relished. The SNP need a good strong opposition to keep their Trumpist tendencies in line, and that can't come either from Labour, or the Lib Dems, or obviously the Tories. And sadly the Greens are too small.. for now. And deprived of the threat/promise of an election, which would have brought them back in in numbers.
21

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 00:44:50
#19

It's interesting, Boudica, that you associate London with big hitters. You don't see either Annabel Goldie or Wendy Alexander as big hitters, then? London has been part of the problem for a long time; devolution is seen as something fit only for the 'peripheries' and, until it is extended to all regions of England, Westminster seems destined to continue in the belief that devolved governments/assemblies should not have devolved policies. It was this belief that Henry McLeish argued against and lost. Jack McConnell, I believe, also was frustrated that Westminster would not concede more powers and - arguably - he could have won the last election had the 'big hitters' in London not sidelined him during the campaign. So I can't see that bringing up the 'big hitters' would be of much consequence. It does make you wonder if the constitutional commission can survive for very much longer.
22

,

07/02/2008 00:46:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

,

07/02/2008 00:47:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Willie,

07/02/2008 00:50:54
I'm not impressed like the SNP sycophants.
Salmond's crying wolf purely for effect rather demeans the position. It will be interesting to see if he is so successful next time or when it really matters.
Now to the wonderful budget. There are always consequences to every action, and freezing the council tax, and reducing the grant may well mean reductions in council services to all and sundry. Who do you think Councillors of all persuasions will blame then, and who will the public at large blame?
The SNP are good at delegating to the same councils decisions previously made centrally on all sorts of issues affecting us, but if they start to use these funds to offset other budgets watch for the fallout.
So all of you jumping with joy, remember a year's a long time in politics, and Alex and John might find one swallow doesn't make a summer and next year's budget harder to get through when all the gimmicks are used up.
I'll just watch from the sidelines and see how many of #14's promises actually are achieved. Not many I bet.
25

,

07/02/2008 00:50:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

,

07/02/2008 00:52:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

,

07/02/2008 00:53:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

,

07/02/2008 00:55:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 00:55:45
#32 yup agree it wasn't strictly needed. I suspect that most would regard a budget as a confidence issue anyway - although the Parliament is too young for any such convention to have been established(does one exist in Westminster?).

However, the Labour Party's continual deteriation means he's got away with it - particularly today's shambles of a vote. They're a good 12-18 months away from getting themselves reformed and working. But to be truly rejuvinated they need to get rid of the local authority rejects that infest their ranks of MSPs. If it happens, I actually think it will be good for Scottish politics. But that will take at least 1 more election.... In the meantime...
30

,

07/02/2008 00:56:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

,

07/02/2008 01:03:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

Senga Jean,

07/02/2008 01:05:59
I cannot believe that the SNP Government pulled this off.Will the useless Labour and Lib/dems survive?. Will the spineless Lib/Labs start calling the SNP the tartan greens?.. the tartan Margos.?..etc etc....THE LIB/LABS ONLY CARE FOR THEIR POLITICAL CAREERS AND SOD SCOTLAND.... WELL SCOTLAND HAS A VOTE.
33

­Willie,

07/02/2008 01:06:49
What puzzles me however, is how the Labour part has got so fankled and uncoordinated as to allow the Labour group in Glasgow to endorse the council tax freeze, while MSPs are saying the council tax freeze is bad. looks like a lack of control. Cosla endorsed the council tax under a Labour chair, while Labour at Holyrood were denouncing it. So either Glagow Labour are absuing the vulnerable, in which case they should be dealt with, or MSPs in the Labour group have taken their eye of the ball. Either way is screaming for more central discipline.
34

Willie,

07/02/2008 01:08:47
Wardog Buckie.

Maybe its time for you to leave the debate.
Your projections like promises are just hot air.
This must be the first Victory your Tories have won in Scotland for such a long time.
Fellow Scots don't have such a short memory as you seem to have, and just because you've won a concession doesn't mean to say that we will trust you again ever!!!
Every other party is more trustworthy than yours!!
35

Richardinho,

07/02/2008 01:10:22
Alex Salmond demanded that the lib-labs either put up or shut up.
Staring the possibility of electoral oblivion in the face, they meekly abstained!

Well done to Annabelle Goldie and the Scottish tories having the maturity to work with the government rather than playing petty student politics as Wendy and Nicola Stevens were.
36

,

07/02/2008 01:10:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

07/02/2008 01:10:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

­Willie,

07/02/2008 01:11:59
And wardog may I just remind you that just because Labour councils endorse the council tax freeze and local control, this does not mean this is not an attack on the vulnerable. It just shows how the SNP have manipulated councils!
39

,

07/02/2008 01:12:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

,

07/02/2008 01:13:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

,

07/02/2008 01:13:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

­Willie,

07/02/2008 01:14:37
58 You disgust me. typical SNP. while councils are being forced to abandon the vulnerable, even if Labour councils have been tricked into endorsing it, you laugh about the SNP so called triumph.

43

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 01:15:54
#48 "I'd predict a wipe out for them in the North East" - yup. Their inept handling of the Trump plan has done for them up there.

"The Tories on the other hand have done everything they could have to deliver for their supporters" - the Tories know that they needed to come out of the political wilderness and help make devolution work. The Labour Party are too dumb to learn from their mistakes!

44

­Willie,

07/02/2008 01:19:34
62. Rubbish. The Labvour party are embracing devolution. The SNP have trciked Labour councils into adopting their copuncil tax freeze and local control of spending. When they see the trick for what it is they will return to to the Labour fold, as will the Lib Dems.
45

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 01:21:53
#63 "The Labvour party are embracing devolution" (your mis-spelling)

What? By spending 8 years in power, neutered by Westminster and doing everything that the UK party told them to?
46

Richardinho,

07/02/2008 01:22:05
'Is it true that Wendy was seen to be asking someone how she should vote?'

HoHo, Blackadder sends Baldrick to the Scottish parliament to lead the Prince Regents party with inevitably hilarious consequences!
47

,

07/02/2008 01:22:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

,

07/02/2008 01:23:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

­Willie,

07/02/2008 01:23:59
64. Rubbish. Scottish Labour are blazing a new trail for devolution. Look at how councils have been allowed to adopt the SNP council tax freeze!
50

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 07/02/2008 01:26:46
The Tories might never be called "best friends" of the SNP but at least they can be called "trustworthy" They achieved what they wanted and Swinney was sensible enough to give them that. They forced the SNP into giving what the SNP was aiming to do any way. Maybe the time scale was going to be different. As for Labour and the Lib dems, the prospect of Salmond throwing in the towel concentrated their minds incredibly. The prospect of them having to have Wendy Alexander as First Minister caused them to bottle their opposition to the Budget. Only Cathy Craigie seemed to be happy with the prospect of Wendy taking over. Even Wendy appears to have dreaded the prospect of having Wendy. Ah well such is life.
51

ed.,

in edin 07/02/2008 01:28:15
The Devil's in the lack of detail
52

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 01:30:39
Willie. Firstly, that's because they are longer in majority control of councils all over Scotland (its telling that you mentally associate councils with Labour.... we're not a one-party state any more!)

Secondly, most Labour local activists have been despairing of the direction they've been led in by the central machine.

Thirdly, no elected official wants to be held back from doing the right thing locally by centrally set targets and ring-fencing arrangements. Most people (even Labour) go into politics to try and make a difference - you can't do that as a councillor if you're neutered by central policy.

There's lots of reasons why the councils will take the deal....
53

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 02:02:34
John Swinney was majestic today. His whole approach to this budget from day one has bristled with intelligence and professionalism, not to mention determination to get it through.

And what's all this nonsense about was there wasn't there a deal with the Tories? Of course there was a deal, it's a minority Government, what do you expect, the SNP go into today's vote with only hope and a song in their heart?

The SNP tried to bring everyone on board, including Labour and Liberals but it was they who had thrown their dolls out of the pram, which is why the SNP wasn't able to include them in the final package. Even then JS accepted Iain Gray's amendment.

BTW, is it me or does Iain Gray look more like a leader in waiting that Andy at the moment?
54

,

07/02/2008 02:05:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 02:06:54
Wardog - Various excellent posts.

Fitlike Wardog? - boy are you on form the nicht!!!
56

An ­English­ Voice,

07/02/2008 02:09:35
74. total piffle. Just because the Labour party were momentarily confused, due to the SNP spin machine, does not mean that the SNP budget is good.
57

An ­English­ Voice,

07/02/2008 02:13:51
As for the headline "total triumph" what total piffle
58

,

07/02/2008 02:14:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 02:17:43
Has the Hootsmoan's ace journalist, Hamish got nothing to say on yesterday's proceedings??
Nicol is also keeping a low profile - I wonder why???
60

,

07/02/2008 02:17:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

,

07/02/2008 02:20:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Gina Gibson,

Wales 07/02/2008 02:24:13
Both Labour and the Lib/Dems have shown by their infantile behaviour just how unfit they are to participate in government. They should all resign and give Scottish voters the chance to increase the SNP majority!
63

,

07/02/2008 02:25:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

,

07/02/2008 02:26:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

Richardinho,

07/02/2008 02:33:00
A triumph for the SNP because they managed to get their budget through AND they showed that minority govt can work. More importantly it was a triumph for the parliament as a whole for the same reasons.

A disaster for Labour.Their ammendment was a worthless gesture with no money behind it, which is why John Swinney was happy to include it.
if the Labour party weren't going to vote for it, why include it?
If they were planning on abstaining, why not say so earlier and not hand the Tories a triumph on a plate?

Why abstain at all, rather than simply voting against it, when they would have lost anyway?

On close scrutiny, nothing they did yesterday made any sense whatsoever.
66

,

07/02/2008 02:34:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 02:36:25
#80 AM2,
Libdums and New Labour Sleaze and Corruption were outthought and outwitted by Alex & Co.
Your assertions that the budget was passed only because of 'momentary confusion' caused by SNP spin would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
Might as well admit it, your mob were given a lesson in statesmanship and diplomacy.
Join us AM2 - you know its making sense!!!
68

,

07/02/2008 02:36:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
69

,

07/02/2008 02:38:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 02:41:54
juan kerr and his dead magic hands, now re risen.,

Boy you're on top form tonight. AM2 is taking a real pasting. I can feel a huff coming on;-)
71

,

07/02/2008 02:45:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

,

07/02/2008 02:48:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 03:03:26
Opposition humiliated as £30bn Budget is passed.

This is today headline in Scotland's only quality newspaper. What do you reckon AM2???
74

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 03:22:11
I wonder if New Labour Sleaze and Corruption's 'big hitter' Dougie will be putting in an appearance on TV and radio, making excuses for sister Wendy after yesteday's debacle, telling us she unintentionally abstained???
We have to know ;-)
75

,

07/02/2008 03:30:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

,

07/02/2008 03:31:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Manila,

Manila 07/02/2008 03:35:12
Salmond is beginning to look and behave like Jabba the Hutt.
78

Buchanan,

07/02/2008 03:41:28
My favorite Scotsman Headline ever :

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

I think I now have the inspiration I was looking
for a Tattoo.

I just need to read it a few more times

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

"A total triumph and an utter defeat"

Ahh, so good .......
79

,

07/02/2008 03:42:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

Jimmy the Pie,

07/02/2008 03:51:47
I noticed Nicol is conspicuous by his silence. I see he's also going full astern re the Trump trial. How long has he got before his London masters boot him out, as he is dragging the Libdums off the political map - no bad thing given their recent form!
81

donald,

glasgow 07/02/2008 04:52:17
The Broon Thatcherite London Cabinet must be relieved that their North British Numpties did not dare call for an election to wipe themselves out.

I attended Alex Ewing, SNP cartoonist's funeral yesterday. Alex would have loved to see this farce in Holyrood, as he would to see so many of his old friends gather in Glasgow to celebrate his life in the style he would have appreciated.

The congregation sang Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All ye", which a Labour Conference once had the cheek to hijack. Alex used to sing many Socialist songs with sincerity and relish that no Kinnockite could ever hope to match. He marched against Labour's war in the Middle East and their Nuclear bases in Faslane. It was also good to see so many honest, self sacrificing people ther to do homage to him and his work. Pity Alex did not live to see the fruits of their labours for Independence. I only hope I won't be too old to enjoy it. Fellow House of Fraser artist, Malky McCormack, performed the oration with humour and style, recalling Alex's life and work with hilarious anecdotes. Alex was also a Republican Socialist, far to the left of any Labour hack who worked his life for the cause without a penny of expenses, or thought of a career, or amassing a personal fortune from his chosen path was indeed and a pleasure to remember. Fare ye well
82

,

07/02/2008 05:16:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

,

07/02/2008 05:36:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

,

07/02/2008 06:05:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 06:16:36
"You couldn't make it up,"


Now I hope people will realise how the country came to be in the state it was.
86

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/02/2008 06:17:01
With the first SNP budget now in place it is now time for Mr Salmond and his administration to buckle down and start treating their respective jobs seriously. They should remember that they have been entrusted with the care of the most vulnerable in our society. It is worrying to see the man entrusted with the care of our sick or the education of our children spend more time acting the goat with cheap political stunts than concentrating on the responsibilites of his job.
He will never be forgiven if he spends more time preening and prancing about claiming to be an international man of peace or whatever delusions he may have that day when our frontline services are being cut to pay for his council tax freeze.
87

,

07/02/2008 06:44:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

,

07/02/2008 06:45:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Media 1,

cape town 07/02/2008 06:46:17
Salmond throw his toys out the cot, and it worked! But it worked this time, it wont always work. He was at the end of his tether, he was cracking under the pressure, he was lost in a maize of political disorientation and he felt like running for the hills because he knows he doesnt have it in him to run a nation! Rogue politics is all the SNP know!
His next wee childish outburst will hopefully see him head for the hills
90

,

07/02/2008 06:47:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

,

07/02/2008 06:48:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 07:00:03
A couple of observations:

A party gets an amendment accepted and then abstains from the vote, and this is greeted with derision. Meanwhile, in complete contrast, a party gets an amendment accepted and then abstains from the vote, and this is accepted as a reasonably logical position.

The difference in reception between Labour's action and that of the Greens seems to me to confirm that this criticism of Labour has little to do with what they have actually done, and everything to do with how vulnerable people feel they currently are to a full-on onslaught.

I have no doubt that, had Labour voted against the budget immediately having had an amendment accepted, the criticism would have been just as stinging, and just as little justified. And I can only imagine the howls of derision had they voted in favour.

There would have been no benefit to Scotland in voting the budget down, so I am glad it was passed. Salmond's arrogant suggestion that he would take the issue "to the people" if the budget failed was not just bluster, but another false promise. He has no power to call an election. He could have resigned as First Minister and been reelected 10 times without it making the slightest difference.

Yet again in Alex Salmond's Scotland we are seeing politics played as a game. Perhaps after 9 months he is still enjoying rubbing people's noses in his position. I do hope he grows out of it soon.
93

,

07/02/2008 07:14:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

yockel,

07/02/2008 07:16:09
What are the LibDems up to? They severely damaged themselves by their cosying up to Labour just to get a bit of power and the trappings that go with it and now when they should be distancing themselves from Labour in order just to survive they go and demonstrate they are just a NuBlab subcommittee
95

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 07:39:11
#115 Do you feel sorry for the people who voted Green as well? By your logic, they too couldn't be bothered to vote.
96

inoui,

Bordeaux 07/02/2008 07:40:22
Exellent news for Scotland!
97

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 07/02/2008 07:45:30
110 Media 1, Still ranting on about Salmond I see, wish you would head to the hills.
However a great day for Scotland and the Scottish people, once again the SNP with Mr Salmond leading from the front is showing that the people of Scotland have had second rate numpties running Scotland all these years.
Onwards and upwards!
98

Braesbear,

07/02/2008 07:47:07
Yet another show of petulance from the Lib Dims and Labore. Both of these parties have yet to realise that they do not have control and their continuing refusal to accept this is clearly visible to the Scottish public. If a snap election had been called tomorrow then I'm sure that they would have lost even more seats as people see the other parties getting on with the job in hand. long may it continue.
99

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 07/02/2008 07:53:27
Great News for Fife and Scotland!
100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 07:56:23
#121 And how exactly would a snap election have been called tomorrow? It would be constitutionally impossible. All Salmond could do is resign as First Minister. No-one could call a snap election. Salmond's threat of going "to the people" was empty, because it wasn't in his, or anyone else's, power to do so.
101

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 08:01:12
#123 Ah, here's the representative of the Tory-controlled and dreadfully misnamed Federation of Small Businesses Scotland! Hello Angus. Still pretending that your little group is representative?
102

paulr,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 08:01:46
When i was younger I used to beleive we voted these people in, in order to represent us. Of course I know the truth now.
I wonder just how these so called MSP's think they are helping the country or themselves by abstaining from votes?
if they beleive something is wrong for the country they should vote against it,
if they beleive it is right then vote for it.
By abstaining in the most important vote of the year they simply prove that electing them was totally the wrong decision.
103

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:06:08
They've even have corrupted the lottery?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2008/02/05/ntory105.xml
104

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 08:07:06
#126 This wasn't a single issue vote so your simplistic interpretation is inapplicable. Every MSP will have found elements of this budget good and elements bad. The Greens, for example, found the extra £4m for bus subsidies good, but large swathes of the roads building budget bad. They therefore abstained. It seems to me a quite reasonable response. Does it not to you?
105

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:08:17
They didn't vote because they didn't want to be seen to lose. They abstained to avoid an election at the time when it was likely Wendy would be found guilty of undermining democracy.

Classic
106

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:15:34


"They were also celebrating a humiliating defeat for their Labour rivals, for this was a test not just of government but of effective opposition. Labour flunked that test"

"Labour had no Plan B"

"The bewildering saga has damaged Ms Alexander and her finance spokesman, Iain Gray, when things already looked grim for the leadership. The blame game was already under way last night"

Lovin it


107

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek Australia 07/02/2008 08:18:25
HERE WE GO, HERE WE GO, HERE WE GO
First goal into the net and the opposition walk off the field.
108

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:22:24
"What Labour was about yesterday, however, is beyond the wit of man"
109

Stephen101,

Who voted for these labour idiots? 07/02/2008 08:22:41
Poor old AM2 has been skulking in the shadows as we have vented our spleen on the corruption, dishonesty and money grabbing antics of Wendy et all. He comes out but has nothing to say other than I understand what is going on better than any of you.

He says "now we get to judge the SNP on basically their own terms, which ought to be fun!"

AM2's problem is he judges on HIS terms.

As Cpl Jones said, AM2 and his fellow NewLab supporters 'they don't like it up em'. Alex shoved it up em, and told them 24 hours beforehand what he was going to do if they didn't behave. Despite Cpl Jones warning about 'Don't panic!!' they did.

Labour and Lib Dems are not just totally clueless and directionless, but the fact they are being paid to be a voice for the people who elected them makes such a disgrace.

Does the Sale of Goods Act apply to Labour MSPs?
110

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

How a proper paper reports it 07/02/2008 08:23:46
As the Marks & Spencer television adverts almost say: "This wasn't just defeat. This was ritual humiliation.

Labour was yesterday - and is on each day that passes - outmanoeuvred, outgunned and outfought on every front and on every issue. Frankly, the official opposition in the Scottish Parliament is beginning to take on all the aspects of a rabble"
111

rawhide ,

07/02/2008 08:25:03
Will Gray Ian be the next numpty, I hope so.
60 broon bottles sitting on the wall
la,la,la.
112

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 08:26:44
#133 Salmond did indeed tell them what he was going to do if they "didn't behave". Unfortunately what he told them was not within his power. I'm not sure what that makes Salmond, but a statesman he isn't.
113

McTumshie,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 08:28:38
For the first time since the Scottish Parliament was formed we are seeing a politician of high calibre in the form of Alex Salmond. Let's hope this spells the end to the appalling parade of Labour dead-beats who have foisted their outmoded, selfish and self serving opinions on the country for years.
114

Stephen101,

07/02/2008 08:29:19
Media1 fae Cape Town says "he was lost in a maize of political disorientation "

All I can see is Cary Grant in North by North West as the aeroplane chases him. Can we compare Alex with Cary? Ach why not? In North by North West Alex (sorry Cary) won against the baddies. Was Jackie Baillie the housekeeper in the house at Mt Rushmore? She ended up dead meat.
115

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 08:32:25
Labours performance yesterday demonstrates clearly that Wendy is so focussed on her corruption issue that she is providing no effective leadership and direction.

Even her biggest fan who won't comment on her wee scandal, AM2, is congratulating the SNP in his own way.
116

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:33:07
"On Sunday it emerged that at least 95 Labour MPs including two members of the Cabinet employ members of their family using taxpayer-funded expenses"

Daddy, please become a Labour MP so I don't have to work!!

OK son, all my previous are for fraud, dishonesty and incompetence. I have a chance but there are many trying for these jobs, the sons and daughters of other Labour MSP's especially.

The Labour party are corrupt to the core. Thats 27% of elected labour MP's at this game.

LOVIN IT
117

tog,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 08:33:39
*Please enter your comment*

All in all a good day for political grantstanding but a bad day for Scotland. Salmond risks coming across as a blustering bully. Could they maybe all resign, promise not to restand and we could start again with some new ones. All the parties seem to have got themselves in a bad place.
118

larryt,

07/02/2008 08:34:18
Well done to John Swinney. It's sometimes claimed that decent people can't make it in politics; clearly not true.
119

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:36:31
Hain takes cash from supporters of apartheid, gun runners and his Labour MSP buddies are doing a better job of denying meritocracy to their constituents and supporters.

You deserve it

ha ha ha ha
120

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:41:28
The Labour party are clearly run along the lines you would associate with the nepotism of a Private limited company.

The only thing this UK govt has made transparent is our bank details, addresses and national insurance numbers to crooks.

Has anyone noticed an increase in mail from those trying to get yer details recently. I used to get the occasional one but now its three a day.

121

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

At least they dont discriminate on grounds of age? 07/02/2008 08:44:27
Peter Hain employs his 80-year-old mother on a Commons salary of £5,400 a year, he has admitted.

122

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 08:45:27
#145 Morning Dave. What's this got to do with patriotism? You're surely not suggesting one party is more patriotic than another?
123

jdships,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 08:47:27
137 Mctumshie.

Pleased with the result - business rates reduced and more police are excellent bonuses .
Salmond " a politician of high calibre " - juries out on that one as yet
Master opportunist - yes , and has been for many years .
Unfortunate thing is ,as at Westminster, there is a weak Opposition . There needs to be a strong opposition to worry the life out of the Government and make them think before acting.

Independance is , like or hate it, is still a long way off
124

Scudder,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 08:49:06
Can't we just declare our Independence NOW Alex ?
125

Stephen101,

Typical Labour non question Dunky 07/02/2008 08:51:01
#147 Yes, if patriotism is working for the people of your country. Definitely yes.

Or is lining your own pocket and your mate's pocket the 'new' patriotism?
126

mrsbruce,

Livingston 07/02/2008 08:51:29
I am obviously a sad person. Here was me thinkng that surely we should be voting to get a better Scotland, not winning 'points' against each other.

But there we are, as usual, bickering away and looking like real 'numpties'.

Labour came into being to get a better deal for the working man. Now all it does is.....well, what does it do.....

To vote for an amendement, then abstain is way too much like stomping off in a huff.

At least the MSP who voted against it (whether a mistake or not) made a bit of sense.

If there is a reason to vote against a budget, then vote against it, don't fuff about and be difficult just for the sake of being difficult.

Just keep in mind, it's my money your fuffing about with.

127

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 08:51:33
I've had a great idea???

Why don't we let these folk run our economy. They have demonstrated resolute competency and are above suspicion when it comes to corruption?

They could not possibly turn our resource and talent rich nation into a pauper, social or economic, could they????
128

McMillar,

Fife 07/02/2008 08:51:35
Never realised that budgets could be quite so interesting…..zzz. We have known for sometime now that Salmond is in a different league and there is no credible opposition in Scotland. NS and WA are really living on borrowed time now and the sooner they accept that the better for all. The Lib Dems need someone like Charles Kennedy if that is possible? Labour – hmmmmm, I was in favour of Wendy staying to prove she can deliver. But who next? They have no-one. May be that the donations case is too much of a distraction and she just can’t get back on track. Isn’t it amazing that we now think the conservatives are ‘ok’.
129

Senga Jean,

Scotland 07/02/2008 08:56:12
A new dawn. A new day. Why does it all feel so much better? John Swinney of the SNP did a brilliant job. He may not have the "super brain" of Wendy or the smooth talking glibness of Nicol Stephen or even the "stair heid" pugnacity of "auld Goldie" but he can just get it all together. John! A nation thanks you.
130

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 09:00:07
I think the majority of Labour MSP's should be tuning into this forum around about now to assess their performance based on the electorates opinion.

Wendy, and co - you were pathetic

131

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:01:01
#150 My point is that you need to be very careful when throwing around concepts like patriotism in political discourse. This has always been, and remains, one of my biggest concerns about the nationalist movement in Scotland.

I don't think anyone with a brain truly thinks that Labour, or the Lib Des, or the Tories, or the Greens, are simply in politics to feather their nests. The Labour movement have produced some of the most significant improvements in the lives of the people of Scotland, from the welfare state and the NHS to the recent halving of child poverty. These results did not come from people who can be dismissed either as working to line their pockets, or as unpatriotic.

The rhetoric of nationalism is its most worrying aspect.
132

walter,

07/02/2008 09:03:17
So the budget has been passed, well done the Conservatives for ensuring the SNP at least held to some of their promises that they tried to back out off or water down.
Still there is one good thing about it, they have been given the green light and when they do not deliver what they have promised (and they won't we have seen that from their manifesto) only they can be blamed no one else, although they have already shown themselves to be no different than Labour in that respect and will try to blame others for their failings (again something we have seen this from their manifesto).
133

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:05:57
You can take your choice between this was a stage managed "keep yer gob shut and do nuthin" frae the boss in London, or the entire Labour and Liberal parties are a bunch of gravy train quisling thick as mince muppets.
I'm QUICKLY heading toward the LATTER.
At least Nu(mpty) Labour can finally claim that they saved some jobs in Scotland! THEIR OWN!

They are an embarrassment .
REMOVE THIS NATIONAL DISGRACE FROM OUR MIDST ASAP.

NOT EVEN FIT FOR OPPOSITION.

Iain Gray waffled and waffled a response which practically had the interviewer wetting himself.

Iain Gray actually thinks that if he baffles everybody with totally incomprehensible garabge that like the Numpty party supporters, we will nod our heads in aggreement with him,and assume that because we cannot understand him it must be because he is intelligent!
Sorry Nooooooooooooooooooooooo. Its because you are stupid and he is taking el mucho crapo.

You cannot defend the indefensible and the sooner the numpties get this into their THICK skulls the better,and Scotland can move forward and take her place in the world.

Heard the one about the Labour numpty who...............................................................
Not yet! But you will trust me !Just adapt your ethnic jokes,if you cant thinkof any.They will fit perfectly trust me!
134

weh,

07/02/2008 09:09:16
THIS FROM ALAN COCHRANE AT THE DT TODAY-AND HES A DYED IN THE WOOL UNIONIST!

Labour was yesterday - and is on each day that passes - outmanoeuvred, outgunned and outfought on every front and on every issue. Frankly, the official opposition in the Scottish Parliament is beginning to take on all the aspects of a rabble.!
135

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:09:51
#158 You do your party a disservice by a posting like that.

Do you know who Quisling was? You suggest that the thousands of honourable and decent people who make up the Labour and Liberal movements are comparable to him?

You are the disgrace, sunshine.
136

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 09:10:57
I am looking for a summer job - does anyone know of a Labour MP looking to adopt??
137

Buspass,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:11:02
Congratulations to Alex and the SNP, but what are we paying - very handsomely - these other clowns for? To abstain on major issues?
138

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:11:37
#159 Haha. He's a Tory. Of course he will attack Labour. This notion that the world is divided into SNP and Others is entirely your invention.
139

,

07/02/2008 09:13:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
140

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:17:15
#164 Did he indeed? So you think that every member of the Labour and Liberal movements is equivalent to a man who betrayed his country and collaborated with the Nazis by acting as their puppet.

In which case I'm afraid neither of you appear to have any sense of either perspective or decency.
141

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 09:18:07
Formed and elected to take from the rich and give to the poor. To create a country of meritocracy. But now they are taking from everyone to give to themselves and their offspring.
142

,

07/02/2008 09:18:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
143

Doh,

07/02/2008 09:20:09


Ya Dancer!

Whit a statesman.
144

Alastair the First,

07/02/2008 09:21:45
Duncan in Edinburgh still appears to be unable to accept that his beloved Labour Party lost the election.

As for his apparent hatred of Alex Salmond: Hmm, very Freudian, Duncan!
145

Bewildered,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 09:22:08
I found Alex Salmond's boorish behaviour when the vote on the budget was announced distasteful.
We were promised that the Scottish Parliament would be different from Westminster and there would be no silly school boy behaviour, only serious debate.
What went wrong ?
An independent Nation under Mr Salmond; no thanks.
146

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:22:35
160

Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian politician who was a collaborator. Yes I'm perfectly well aware of who he was.

You think I damage MY party.
YOU MUST BE JOKING!
I will be very surprised if the SNP have not opened up another 5 points in the opinion polls.

Labour are a laughing stock.Even their own supporters (apart from you) are not defending this .They know there is no defence.
Wendy's face said it all,but then so did every face on the government and Tory side.

Embarrassing/hilarious (depending upon which you are) beyond measure.
147

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:25:07
170
Pathetic response and it has absolutley NOTHING to do with Kenny MacCaskill as you well know.
I take responsibility for my actions.
I stand by what I said.
148

Farmernot,

07/02/2008 09:25:09
AM2.........eh no methinks you spick wi forked tongue
149

rawhide ,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 09:26:53
158 morris,edinburgh.
Spot on.
lmao.
At duncan.
150

Rob7,

England 07/02/2008 09:28:04
Great news, hope to see England Independant from you lot very soon - this can only help
151

carrottop,

Dumfries 07/02/2008 09:28:14
Now maybe it will be the socialists who will emigrate and the people normally driven overseas by their pathetic politics will stay. Here's to a better Scotland.
152

Farmernot,

oan ma triactor 07/02/2008 09:29:40
Any chance of a comment frae "doon in the mooth" and her sidekick Nicolodeon..........no?????........thought not
153

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:30:38
It's going to be interesting listening to wee wendy and her justification for Labour's actions yesterday.

It's also interesting reading AM2 increasingly bitter posts. It's a pity he's not prepared to recognise the pure ambition of the SNP govt, but hey, what do you expect from an arch onionist?
154

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:31:13
1 A.J.Fife - What planet do you live on?

Congratulations to the Conservative and Unionist party for getting their budget through.
155

yockel,

07/02/2008 09:32:53
Is Dunacn in Edinburgh, Wini?
156

Mikey,

07/02/2008 09:33:52
Yesterday, I predicted that some Labour Parody members would abstain! I didn't think they would commit political suicide by abstaining en masse! Looks like the phones from Millbank must've been red hot barking out orders to the peons! No wonder Salmond and Swinney were laughing! What a bunch of spineless jerks!Just goes to show that they have absolutely no vision for Scotland whatsoever.

St Kilda should be safe, however. All the rats have left the fishing boat and made it to Holyrood wearing red rosettes!

And congrats to AM2 and AEV. Nice to se magnanimity in defeat!
157

rawhide ,

07/02/2008 09:36:18
The Liebour party had vowed to block the budget unless an amendment about better skills and training was accepted.

The SNP agreed on the amendment - only for Liebour to abstain from the vote anyway.
Says it all about the liebour selfseeking shower of incompetant parasites, controlled fae london.Pathetic.
158

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:36:23
#181,

Is your real name Mr Magoo?

Come on, it's not too late to join a winning team. What do you want, a vibrant and proud Scotland or a another BRITISH region of utter desolation?

The choice is yours!

159

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:36:50
#172 Unless you think that the SNP's supposed leap in the opinion polls will be as a direct result of your posting, then I fail to see what you're talking about. I said that you damage your cause by posting insulting and false historical comparisons. You countered that with the supposition that the SNP are doing well in the polls. There is simply no link between the two. You are blustering.

If you are an SNP supporter, you would do well to heed your own party's guidance and stop using unpleasant and unsupportable insults to make your points.

I fear I am talking to a brick wall though, since you only ever seem to read between the lines of my posts, rather than what I say. Try reading this one again, and then realise that you owe the people of the Labour and Liberal movements an apology for likening them to Nazi collaborators. I'm not talking about how well each party is doing. I'm talking about you taking responsibility for your insults.
160

,

07/02/2008 09:37:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
161

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:39:12
Wow - I just read a few more of A.J. from Fife's ravings! "A class apart" LOL. a class might help them a lot. Maybe in one of the 45 pupil primary one classes that exist all over the country!

Can he really believe that Chubby Cheeks had a triumph? Surely not. Chubby Cheeks lost all credibility on this one. (Doesn't he always though!) This went through because he gave it away to the Conservatives and because the time was not right for an election due to Wendygate. It's that simple. And so is Chubby by the way!
162

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/02/2008 09:41:08
#172 Unless you think that the SNP's supposed leap in the opinion polls will be as a direct result of your posting, then I fail to see what you're talking about. I said that you damage your cause by posting insulting and false historical comparisons. You countered that with the supposition that the SNP are doing well in the polls. There is simply no link between the two. You are blustering.

If you are an SNP supporter, you would do well to heed your own party's guidance and stop using unpleasant and unsupportable insults to make your points.

I fear I am talking to a brick wall though, since you only ever seem to read between the lines of my posts, rather than what I say. Try reading this one again, and then realise that you owe the people of the Labour and Liberal movements an apology for likening them to Nazi collaborators. I'm not talking about how well each party is doing. I'm talking about you taking responsibility for your insults.
163

Disputer,

07/02/2008 09:41:33
110 Media 1

Utter rubbish.
164

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 09:42:03
Having humiliated themselves with the budget the lablibs will seek to vent their spleen over the "planning" thingie. Expect them to go an a sabotage frenzy.

Aye - their only power left is to sling mud and they've practiced the art for years. It will be their death throws!
165

,

07/02/2008 09:42:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
166

rawhide ,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 09:42:33
In the pic , is wee eck burstin his sides cause wendy has just banged her beak oan the table?
167

weh,

07/02/2008 09:45:35
Duncan wrote
Try reading this one again, and then realise that you owe the people of the Labour and Liberal movements an apology for likening them to Nazi collaborators."

B....ocks duncan!

The people of scotland owe nothing to these quislings-these quislings are all traitors!

Now-go back to your serfdom and prepare for.... home rule!!

168

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 09:47:37
Alex Salmond is a genius. He has correctly forseen every step that the opposition would have made against them. If he'd lost the vote, the opposition would have called for his head in a vote of no confidence, so what does he do? Take the wind out of their sails and says he will resign if the budget isn't passed.

The only way the opposition can go, say he is childish and that he has thrown the toys out of the pram.

The rest of the SNP administration should also be congratulated for this stunning performance. Rather than voting down the amendment brought forward by Labour, the SNP vote for their amendment. They saw it as a good thing, and through consensus politics, felt it would be worth bringing in too.

Prior to the election, the SNP were being touted as the party of division. Remember this is a party that has it in their constitution NOT to form a coalition with the Tories, and yet they have become so forward thinking that they have managed to work together with the Tories to get this passed.

THIS is the kind of politics we were promised before the Parliament came into being. We were told that the old ways of Westminster would be thrown to the fire, and yet we had eight years of the same old rubbish. In less than a year, the SNP have turned this round and the whole country has a bit more confidence that the Parliament is doing more for the Scottish people.

And yet, the Lib/Lab coalition of old still hold their outdated attitude to the Parliament. We'll put in the amendment which would make us happy with the budget, but we won't vote for it if it gets passed as we wouldn't like to be seen to vote for the SNP and lose face. We won't vote against it either because at the next election fingers will be pointed at us for voting against free prescriptions, a council tax freeze and all the other positive aspects of this budget.

Instead we will make ourselves the laughing stock of the nation, sitting on our hands and showing our true colours. An oppositi
169

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 09:48:39
An opposition which induces apathy.

Can you imagine the questions from the electors? Why did you not vote against it? - Well we agreed with it, apart from the amaendment we wanted. So why not vote for it? - Well we didn't need to as it was going to be passed anyway, and we didn't want to contribute to an SNP victory. Which of the parties seems to be childish now, eh?

And having read these postings for a long time now, and seen AM2s mad rantings, it is even more amusing to see that he doesn't know which way to point the finger today.

I think I saw him blaming the SNP for Labour being so poor. Have the day off AM2 and come back when you have thought of a way to make these historic decisions look bad.
170

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:49:04
AM2#194,

You know only too well that yesterday was just another small step towards the break up of your beloved Union!

However, it would appear you've been fakied, or is that just a convenient claim. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I'll welcome the shifting of your priciples towards supporting Mr Salmond and his Party.
171

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:50:54
Come on Bermuda Pie, join the party, you know you want to!
172

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 09:51:13
181
Agreed to a certain extent.AS and AG have BOTH achieved a brilliant result ,but you have to recognise that as a tactical excersise, the Conservative party achieved quite a lot for a party whose vote in Scotland has dwindled over recent years,and we should indeed acknowledge Annabelle who has certainly shown SCOTLAND what a Lady leader can do!Unfortunately so has Wendy!
The contrast is what sticks out !
I think they(AS and AG) will both feel pleased with themselves and who can blame them.
I doubt Gordon will be smiling in LOndon though!
Wendy would be history if they had anybody else.

173

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 09:52:46
AM2

Thank you for your reason today
174

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 09:54:14
AS as ever is at the top of his game.
175

Upbeat,

07/02/2008 09:56:08
The budget that the SNP planned was ditched in favour of the best deal they could get.

Right up until the vote the SNP leadership had no idea whether they had conceded enough to carry the vote.

Now they have been hoisted with an obligation to deliver on a budget that almost half the MSP's did not support. That this was the best they could get away with, does not spell success.

Had the MSP's voted to defeat the budget no advantage would have resulted. Now the SNP is firmly conrenred in its obligations to run Scotland in the way it alone has claimed are affordable.

When they find this is impossible they will not be able to blame others . The Liberals and Labour groups will be right to claim they never supported it, and the conservatives will say that they felt that Scotland was not ready for the further confusion and political vacuum that would have been a consequence of voting the budget down.

The only losers here are the SNP ...now tasked with delivery of far more than they have the ability to deliver or have bargained for.
176

Gothic Rose,

07/02/2008 09:56:22
Congratulations to,Mr.Salmond and his band.

For those who need to know,it is "CHAUCER"
177

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:57:26
AM2#201,

I have a detected a softing in your posts towards the First minister and his team for sometime now. A few months ago you wouldn't have let the SNP smell the reek off your jobbies!
178

Disputer,

07/02/2008 09:57:55
A first. At 11:00 am 206 posts her and 206 on the Herald.
179

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 09:59:36
LOL, is Upbeat wee wendy? That's exactly the desperate type of rant that'll no doubt come out her oversized gob!
180

Arran of Arran,

Isle of Arran 07/02/2008 10:00:41
My congratulations go to Margo, the SNP and the Tories.

These have learnt how a modern democracy is actually able to work forward and efficient. The best exemple of the consensus-finding way of governing is probably Switzerland, which has since about 100 years a minority governement (with only seven! (7) ministers and none of them is allowed to be a member of the parliament!). The largest party makes usually about a 30% share of the votes and has 2 ministers. Nothing would work there, if the parliament could not find consensus, bringing in this and that «for their voters» and accepting the one or other point which they actually do not like. Of course, the Swiss have always the possibility to demand a referendum to almost EVERYTHING the two chambers have passed (or rejected).

It is now needed, that the Greens and the Liberals are learning this lesson rapidly. The average Labour apparatschick is probably not able to do so, it will need a complete new generation of Labour politicians who are not trained and fixed in that static Blair/Brown/McConnell dogma.

And it needs also INDEPENDANCY.
181

Miss H,

07/02/2008 10:01:07
19 Boudicca. They have already sent a big hitter up from London to sort the Scotch out.

George Foulkes.

182

Disputer,

07/02/2008 10:01:19
I meant 10:00am.
I meant 206 posts HERE
Off for some coffee.
183

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:01:50
Duncan In Edinburgh - your condescending style will win you no arguments.

AM2 - Glasgow - UK - Are you a libertarian?
184

#657750,

Glasgow,UK 07/02/2008 10:04:12
Did you know I like to dress up in womens clothes from the victorian era?

I bet that comes as a startling revelation to all you cybernats.
185

,

07/02/2008 10:06:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
186

birdman,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:06:37
where is the money coming from for all this; will we find out a few years down the line that the SNP, in giving evewryone what they want, have done the same as the labour council did to Edinburgh. Leave us ALL bankrupt as a nation
187

malkster,

Scotland 07/02/2008 10:07:07
If he celebrates like that simply for getting his amended budget through (most governments seem to manage it) I can't wait for a real achievement.
188

Prof,

07/02/2008 10:07:20
Yesterday was very bad day for Labour. Although it was largely ignored by the Glasgow tabloids, the day began with an independent report highlighting that after 60 years of Labour rule in Glasgow, the city is still full by social deprivation.
Then in the parliament they were completely out thought by the SNP.
What next. A criminal prosecution for illegal donations?
189

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 10:07:23
Commission results today apparently and Wendy gone by the weekend perhaps? What a difference a few days make.....
190

41, 4D, 32,

Glasgow,UK 07/02/2008 10:09:15
.
191

,

07/02/2008 10:11:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

,

07/02/2008 10:11:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
193

pwd,

Hawick 07/02/2008 10:11:40
This budget and all the tosh spoken before it shows just what a waste of time this whole Holyrood charade is. Much of it is made up of the normal incremental improvement which has characterised Britain since the war and could and would be dealt with by a British Government; some should not be there at all, such as free school meals which no self respecting modern state would dream of; some are downright ill advised and are there primarily for their populist value and will turn out to be poor value for the country, such as abolition of bridge tolls: many will never actually materialise, or are concerned with trying to catch up on the superior performance elsewhere in the UK, such as shorter hospital waiting lists. Worst of all, there is nothing to break the dependency culture and to force those Scots in it to take responsibility for themselves as all real Scots did only a couple of generations ago. It's time to disband Holyrood.
194

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:12:10
Classic:

"We didn't have to vote for the Budget, because the SNP, the Tories and Margo MacDonald were all going to vote for it anyway" said Labour
195

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 10:12:51
"Six million Britons are living in homes where no one has a job and "benefits are a way of life", a report by MPs revealed yesterday.

And they cost the taxpayer nearly £13billion a year in state handouts.


This army of families on benefit - nearly one in six of all households in the country - has been untouched by a decade of Labour's attempts to get them into work, said the Public Accounts Committee.

196

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 10:13:21
We'll get the money by stopping this madness
197

weh,

07/02/2008 10:14:38
HERALD HAS SUSPENDED COMMENT ON THIS STORY!!
198

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 10:15:22
AM2,

OK I'll stick with "bitter" and withdraw my olive branch to you and proclaim you as an enemy of all Scotland!

*AM2 IS AN ENEMY OF ALL SCOTLAND*

He's also a potential benefits cheat!
199

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:15:43
#226 You don't like the democratic decisions of our parliament so you want to abolish it and return to direct rule from Westminster. That worked really well in the past didn't it! Your contempt for your fellow Scots speaks volumes.

It's time to disband Westminster not Holyrood. We need powers over foreign affairs and defence to stop the waste of money on Trident and allow us to have our own international voice in the EU and UN.
200

Miss H,

07/02/2008 10:16:46
114 Duncan.

The difference is that the Greens made it clear that they would find it very difficult to support the budget if the M74 extension was part of it. That was their red line. Fair enough. But they still used their position to increase spending on their priorities even if they did not change the direction on road building plans.

Labour's position is nothing like as clear as that. They did not get any increased spending on their priorities. Their amendment was anodyne and non-specific which made it easy for the government to accept it. What was the point in even doing it if Labour were then going to abstain? They voted against the budget at the first stage so what made them abstain at the end? If they really thought it was rubbish should they not just have voted against it?

Their behaviour makes no sense, has done them great damage and there is no point denying that.
201

Disputer,

07/02/2008 10:17:50
Comments removed from the Herald because of abuse. The unionists were to blame - as usual. They can't take a beating so they obliterate the thread.
202

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

07/02/2008 10:18:01
"However evidence has been piling up that millions of Britons have been content to spend entire lives on benefits while four out of every five new jobs have been taken by immigrants"

Thankfully people want to come to our country to help pay for these folk. What a state of affairs

203

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 10:18:23
Let's hear it then for Cathy Craigie.
Could she be the 'big hitter' that Labour is looking for?
Who is Cathie Craigie? Shame on you for not knowing.
204

Disputer,

07/02/2008 10:19:24
215

Hello firepump.
205

Media 1,

cape town 07/02/2008 10:19:35
The danger that Scotland faces under the SNP leadership, is the peoples refusal to question Salmond or the SNP, regardless of their actions. It has got to the stage where SNP supporters will defend the SNP at all cost. A dangerous situation indeed!
Years of anti English indoctrination and hard done by stories about Scotland's history coupled with falsified stories about people like William Wallace leads to minds which are easily distorted in a wave nationalistic fervour. Mugabe did the same thing in Zimbabwe. He also played the oppression trumpet,only now people are realising exaclty what oppression means.When people follow blindly without question they usually encounter trouble at the hands of the self appointed Liberator.
Scotland may one day become independent, and that is fine! But when she does, let us hope it happens following a referendum called for by the people, as opposed to an independence forged from one mans twisted ideology.
206

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:21:52
218

The budget is money which we paid in taxation to Westminster which is then returned under the Barnet formula (which works out that London gets 114% of what London contributed and nearly everybody else loses out).
Its not money which needs to be found,IT ALREADY EXISTS.What we are debating at Holyrood is HOW we spend it.Holyrood raises no money at present.

When Scotland is independent you can ask where is the money coming from ?
Under devolution we KNOW where it is coming from and eventually how much it is.

We ONLY decide at Holyrood how we spend it!
The purse strings are in LONDON.

If you mean that the budget has not been costed properly well thats quite a serious matter,because 60 Labour Msps have absatined on it,which would make them even bigger idiots than they are already)!
207

Disputer,

07/02/2008 10:22:14
239

More mince.
208

tam dolan,

Dundee 07/02/2008 10:24:53
*20* - Inheritamce Tax, as for all other taxes are a reserved matter.

I don't often post on this forum although I take great delight in reading the many posts. However, On the budget I have to agree that this is a good deal for Scotland, with many socialist positions now taken forward.

One thing I have noticed on the forum is that no analysis of the implications of removing the ring fence from around council budgets has ocurred.

in my opinion that will see a major change in council poitics, most of which are Labour controlled. In the past, I have frequently sen the excuse that the council cannot take a certain action because the Scottish government rules prevented them. That will no longer apply, and councils will have to think up other excuses for their failings. Could this be part of the SNP plan, to hold Labour controlled councils up to greater local scrutiny, and so gain more council seats for themselves in future when the obvious failings are fully revealed to the electorate??
209

Miss H,

07/02/2008 10:25:57
I hope Duncan that you will be equally quick to condemn the comparison between Alex Salmond and Robert Mugabe as you are to condemn comments about people being quislings.

Both are unjustified.
210

,

07/02/2008 10:26:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
211

Miss H,

07/02/2008 10:26:46
242 Dead right. This is actually the most significant change in Scotland since devolution.
212

,

07/02/2008 10:26:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
213

somerferg,

perth 07/02/2008 10:28:27

#239

I think someone has had a bit too much sun in Cape Town!! Take a couple of asprins and have a nice lie down - you should be okay by tomorrow. Your post is utter pi$h and be sure you are the only one swallowing that load of tripe!
214

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 10:29:51
239 - Media 1

Can you honestly compare Mugabe with Salmond? Murderous oppressor compared to Scottish First Minister?

You might disagree with the First Minister and his politics but I think you should withdraw your comment, after all it is pretty defamatory.
215

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:29:58
239

International law requires that we hold a referendum and establish unequivocally what the public opinion is in Scotland. The SNP acknowledges this and welcomes it.
We are not the party opposed to a referendum as you well know!
Scotland will NOT become independent UNLESS HER PEOPLE WISH IT TO BE SO.

There is no danger of anything other than democracy!

We will hold elections (as one would expect in a democracy) and you can vote for any bunch of muppets you like.

You will get what you deserve! Thats all the SNP ever promised.Its a racing certainty that many SNP members will defect and join a republican party,a green party,a labour party a conservative party,and who knows there may even be STOCKBRIDGE PEOPLES LIBERATION PARTY !

We are a democracy.We will not stop being one ,and we will certainly never allow anyone the absolute right to rule.
216

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:29:59
222 - A Jesuit? Only kidding.

You have a business and investments
You are married with two children
You enjoy edgy contemporary music
You support the union but -
You support no political parties but -
You reserve your criticism for the SNP because -
You abhor nationalism, patriotism, and ethnic politics and -
You believe that the SNP embodies all of these

You're an agnostic?


217

BAMTOO,

07/02/2008 10:32:01
AM2 is ANTAGANOSTIC BOOM BOOM
218

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 07/02/2008 10:34:19
shall we have some politics?

shall we have some government?

naaaah.

let's have smug, sneering tribalism. easy, easy. three cheers for our side. we are the people. our captain, sun shines out of his behind, easy, easy. our team for the cup. your team has less fans than our team, ours is the best, our game is inspired, your team is walter the softy, not a real man. we could conduct ourselves with dignity or we could insult your intelligence and posture like putin, it's up to you. whatever you, the voter, responds to. you'll get what you deserve and you deserve the government you get.
219

Disputer,

07/02/2008 10:35:32
Or as it says on another article in today's Scotsman,

"Like him or loathe him, Alex Salmond is the most effective Scottish politician of his day."
220

,

07/02/2008 10:37:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
221

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:38:23
243 - Miss H, 07/02/2008 10:25:57 says:

"I hope Duncan that you will be equally quick to condemn the comparison between Alex Salmond and Robert Mugabe as you are to condemn comments about people being quislings.

Both are unjustified."

Well put Miss H.
222

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:41:10
248 - theburnschap, The Broch 07/02/2008 10:29:51 says:

"239 - Media 1

Can you honestly compare Mugabe with Salmond? Murderous oppressor compared to Scottish First Minister?

You might disagree with the First Minister and his politics but I think you should withdraw your comment, after all it is pretty defamatory."

Good for you!
223

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 07/02/2008 10:43:26
Labour & Libdums are a complete FARCE, nonentities that will God willing be consigned to Scottish history soon. Humiliation isn't strong enough, they are BEREFT of ideas for Scotland.

And to think these complete TOSSERS ran Scotland for 8yrs - WHAT A JOKE!!!

Good on ya Alex/John/Nicola!!
224

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 10:43:42
Marvellous how the prospect of an electoral thrashing concentrates minds. Roll on Independence.
225

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:43:42
252Keir Hardie, Inverness 07/02/2008 10:34:19:

Good Post!
226

Cathcart Boy,

London 07/02/2008 10:43:55
The SNP with Salmond is a one-trick pony. The Lib Dems have shown themselves to be what they have always been - talkers with no backbone or for that matter policies. Labour is nothing more than the fading lapdog of a busted flush government - so why is Annabel Goldie so bashful? Why have the Tories abandoned the ground of enterprise, and prosperity for all within a framework of social justice? Annabel, seize the day!
227

ken 17,

Kirkintilloch 07/02/2008 10:44:43
On a point of Order;
Scrap Prescription Charges?
There are no such animal, it is a Prescription TAX ans as such is administered via HMRC, over whicxh the Scottish Parliament has no control.
This will maKE FOR AN INTERESTING SALMOND/BROWN discussion
228

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 10:44:53
An Beal Bacht and Miss H,

Media 1's comment should be left - it says more about him than anything else!
229

BMeister,

07/02/2008 10:49:14
'The Tories were derided by Labour and Liberal Democrat MSPs for helping the SNP.'

Have the Labour and the Liberal Democrats have learnt nothing? The Conservatives and Greens worked with the SNP and got concessions towards their own policies, Labour/LibDems played their usual party politics and got nothing. I think Goldies outlining of her approach makes sense.
230

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:49:28
I think it's really unfortunate that labour won't fight its corner. Could have had a slightly different slant to this budget if they had. A slant that many SNP supporters would have welcomed. However, a minority government has to take support where they find it. Too bad!
231

Xena - Warrior Princess,

07/02/2008 10:51:18
#252 Excellent - you have said it all. Nationalism can be ugly and you see that by the posters here. I was actually coming round to the SNP and I do think they have done a good job but I do not want independence.
232

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 10:51:27
262 -

That's one of the reasons I haven't reported it. I thought it should be seen for what it is.

It is a surprise though that 254 - Ayrshire Scot seems to feel the same way as Media 1.

Rather than thinking we are defending Alex Salmond Ayrshire Scot, wouldn't you get it into your mince filled head that postings like that belittle the atrocities made by that murderer.

Disgusting posts.
233

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 10:52:04
262 - Fair enough.
234

Thatcher's love child,

07/02/2008 10:53:22
Pleased to see the budget was passed. Why was I pleased? Well, admittedly I dislike the SNP but they are manipulative masters at playing the hard done by card. They would have been able to continue in pathetic fashion blaming others for preventing them being the party they think they are.

Labour disgraced themselves again.

What else is interesting is to see Alex Salmond in his, now, daily buffoonery applauding 19th century Scots for being so rich. Seems the message we can take from that is that Scotland can and does prosper within the Union given the right leadership.

Now the real test begins. Can the SNP define themselves on their own terms with action not words? Good on the tories for giving them enough rope.
235

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 10:57:07
Labour = useless
Liberal = less than useless
Tories = impressive
Greens = ?
SNP = brilliant
236

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/02/2008 10:57:39
#206 Upbeat - You are suffering from a chronic case of denial. Such ramblings merely show the level of hurt and anger you are feeling. As an SNP supporter, I am elated over the result and the humiliation of the Lab/Lib cabal.
237

BAMTOO,

07/02/2008 10:57:41
AM2 has been whinging to the Herald it seems -

COMMENTS SUSPENDED BECAUSE OF ABUSE


COMMENTS SUSPENDED BECAUSE OF A CHILD - more like.

Kitchens heat and get out spring to mind old bean ;-)
238

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:00:55
227

Absolutely Joe

If that had even a sprinkling of credibility then there would have been 61 No votes not 1 !
60 abstentions is a laughing stock.
Cathie Craigie should be Labour leader !Shes the only one who deserves to be an MSP at all, by the look of it!

Labours Msps are now questioning their tactics I heard !

Tactics?
What tactics?
Even by the widest stretch of the imagination humanly
possible, one cannot describe 60 own goals as tactics!
Its unadulterated nonsense !
239

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 11:01:40
268 - Is criticizing a party for what you imagine they might have done but didn't another way of saying well done?
240

Thatcher's love child,

07/02/2008 11:01:56
269 Queen D

Is that tyo? Shouldn't that be "SNP = full of it". Only (half) joking though. They have got what they want, when they wanted it and I have no doubt they will fail. You obviously think otherwise.

The one thing that strikes me about this budget. The SNP's spending is greater than Labour's and it's efficiency tagets greater than the Tories. That is a recipe for financial ruin.

I can only assume Salmond has been reading his copy of "Prince" again and that is his long term aim. To cripple Scotland financially by burning the candle at both ends and then saying "!if only we could have ALL our oil." in the hope the greedy council estate Scot abuses universal suffrage for short term gain.

Then in 40 years when the wells dry up, who cares we can no longer share resources with the UK when we hit the motherload in the Falklands, he got his selfish aim and toy castle for pretend King Alex.
241

Thistledhu,

Fife 07/02/2008 11:04:53
Party's aside if you look at the backgrounds of Salmon /swinney and co you can see why they are running rings round Labour.

Salmon ex Economic advisor to a bank abd swinney from a similer background.
this in contrast to the age old labour practice of union sponsord or former shop steward's comeing through the ranks of west coast town labour groups via smoke filled back room deals. its hard not to shine when your in the company of political dinosaur's

Unless they make drastic changes Labour in scotland's Ice Age is just round the corner
242

tam dolan,

07/02/2008 11:07:50
*261* - no it is not a prescription tax and is not administered by HMRC. It is a charge administered by the Helath service and can be scrapped by the Scottish parliament, as the Wesh assembly has already done. so soon, you will only pay for medicine in England
243

Tomdonald,

07/02/2008 11:08:42
Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party it used to be! Now it should be the people!
Party politics is not for the 21st Century. We need good men and women to get together with no other purpose than to do as they would be done by or love their neighbour as themselves and then life will be a lot better for everybody including Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan, Europe and Great Britain.
As for independence do we really want to go back to the massacre of Glencoe less than 325 years ago? Is Alec a Campbell or a MacDonald?
244

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:10:27
252

You are correct

When the numpties vote in the General Election and waken to find that Cameron is giving Gordon a hand to pack his cases at no 10 (so he can get his stuff in),we will indeed deserve another Tory government because we voted for one!
Vote Labour and guarantee a Tory government in Scotland!
The problem is of course if Scotland votes Labour and gets what it belives to be its political opposite ,then the accusation of stupidity of the first order ,will be very difficult to defend .

Scotland will indeed deserve what she got!
245

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:12:06
260

"New" poster comes back with another poster's one-trick pony jibe. Clutching at straws come to mind.
246

Pricky Gayes,

07/02/2008 11:12:14
#22

Haha he is bloody Quagmire, spot on!
247

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:12:14
277
The economics of an independent Scotland have absolutely Sweet Francis Adams to do with the massacre of Glencoe.

If you think they have then it explains a lot!
248

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:12:25
Duncan

Maybe you can explain to us which part of the budget the Lab Lib pact objected to and why?
Was it the council tax freeze?
Was it the extra police?
was it the abolition of persciption charges?
How about their own amendment did they object to that as well?
What was it Duncan? and did their constituents agree with their decision to oppose this budget? would they even have been asked? and if not why not?
Personelly I think you just have a hair up your a*se you cant get out.

I have news for you Duncie AS wasnt bluffing about going to the country simply because if this budget hadnt passed then his entire government wouldnt have a leg to govern on and he was well aware he wouldnt have lost the election but gained seats in the process the only doubt was how many.
AS as pointed out yesterday never claimed he could call an election so where did you get that from?
the situation was stated clearly enough to everybody else the Cabinet would resign and the opposition would then have 28 days to form a new government or an election would follow.
That government would have to consist of a coalition of Labour Libs and Tories like that would happen.

You have totally lost it Duncan bereft of any argument or position to even make a stand so YOU YOURSELF do all the BLUSTERING. Its all you have left.
249

redfergus,

London 07/02/2008 11:12:49
It seems to me that AM2 and The Scotsman are teetering on the brink of changing horses in midstream. Why would this be? Do they see the future approaching?
250

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/02/2008 11:13:53
#241 Sadly, poor quality mince too
251

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 11:14:28
279The Dark Side, 07/02/2008 11:11:16

I don't understand your post. Comes across more as a rant.
252

Stewarty,

07/02/2008 11:18:02
I see that the Herald website has closed down comment-taking on this issue because of the abuse being posted.

Could this be Labour supporters venting their spleens at their spineless representatives in the Numptarium?
253

,

07/02/2008 11:19:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
254

An Beal Bacht,

07/02/2008 11:19:17
There's not much more to say is there? This thread has lost its legs. Byee!
255

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/02/2008 11:21:41
#260 Cathcart boy

One-trick pony? It is generally accepted by those who know anything about Scottish politics that Salmond, Swinney and Sturgeon are amongst the best politicians at Holyrood. I suspect that this is way over your head though !
256

tam dolan,

07/02/2008 11:22:59
*283* "That government would have to consist of a coalition of Labour Libs and Tories like that would happen"

Why not, that is exactly what happened in the Dundee City Council elections. these 3 parties formed a ruling coalition to stop the majority SNP block taking control. After all there isn't much difference between New Labour and the Tories now a days, and the Lib Dems will do anything for power
257

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:23:23
254 is a troll
258

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:25:11
288 troll
259

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:27:10
One trick pony? For the idiot posting this I refer you to another Scotsman article:

"Like him or loathe him, Alex Salmond is the most effective Scottish politician of his day."

Probably more than one trick then.

BTW...where is Galactic, Beth Boyle & Sensical Scot?

LOL
260

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:27:39
Yeah. Thread degenerates once more. bye
261

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 07/02/2008 11:31:24
There must have been some raw nerves plucked by this article and its comments - BLIMEY - look at all the posters and their "unsuitable" comments...
262

kimba,

07/02/2008 11:32:20
AJ. Salmond sold out to the tories,and that is the only way he got his budget through.
263

Media 1,

cape town 07/02/2008 11:33:32
I am not saying that Salmond is anything like Mugabe! I am saying that a nation who sees itself as an oppressed colonial state, on the back of words dispensed by a man with an agenda of his own, is dangerous!
Salmond is trumpeting independence and suggesting that it is the best option for Scotland, but he is doing it without first seeing the results of a referendum.
That in itself is rougue politics! He has no right pursue independence until the people have spoken, and that is that!
264

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 11:33:34
Burnschap#266,

There seems to be quite a few Ayrshire Scots posting these days! The original would never have made that outrageous comparison.
265

,

07/02/2008 11:34:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
266

westview,

Looking forward to a long & happy future for Scotl 07/02/2008 11:34:39
Socialists ,(remember when Labour was socialist?), had a statue to "La Passionara" erected on the banks of the river Clyde in Glasgow. Unusualy this statue commemorated a bonny fighter for her Spannish cause while she was still alive. Can we now have a statue to our Alex Salmond erected there? After all he is a bonny fighter for his people. Or perhaps on top of a very tall column in Sutherland, or both? Any other suggestions folks for a location?
267

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:34:53
288

We are all nationalist troll even unionists. Everybody with a passport is a nationalist.
268

,

07/02/2008 11:36:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
269

AJ Fife,

07/02/2008 11:36:59
GREAT....it's Kimbatime! LOL

270

gorgeousgorgieboy,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:37:22
"(Labour MSP Cathy Craigie, who either voted that way by mistake or because she did not know the party position)"

Ho ho - typical of a bunch of useless bar stewards.

I am not an SNP supporter but admit to having been impressed by their perfroamnce since they got in.

And I quite fancy Ms Sturgeon.
271

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 11:37:58
Absolute master stroke from Salmond again. No wonder he's regarded as one of Europe's top political heavyweights. Surely now it's time for the good people who are the grass roots of the labour and libdem parties, to bring their politicians to heel.

They're not fit for purpose! Until they're seen to be operating independently from Westminster, they'll never be a force again. As long as they take their orders from London, Scotland's needs will always be compromised by them.

Lab/libdem members........Sort it out!
272

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

07/02/2008 11:38:24
299

Independence is the only option for Scotland any other option is for the UK that would be the England dominated and run by UK.
Would you like South Africa to join the UK as an equal partner under Westminster rule of course. We may even allow you say 20 or 30 MPs because you would be an equal partner of course hows about it?
273

Thistledhu,

Fife 07/02/2008 11:38:38
#295 Please dont mudsling namecalling etc

The Budget contains a lot of substance

council tax freeze

More police

smaller class sizes
the list goes on.
not too mention the complete humilation of a party allready under pressure

Yes the SNP fortunes may have a downturn but at this rate not for some time and certainley not at the hands of labour who are weeks away from imploding
274

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:41:52
298

And just exactly what was sold out to the Tories then Kimba? funding for the 1000 police force they promised in their own manifesto?
Did they drop their pledge on Independence then? because that and only that would be a sell out.
275

,

07/02/2008 11:42:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
276

pwd,

Hawick 07/02/2008 11:43:01
* 232 Joe M

Re the UK parliament, you said: "That worked really well in the past didn't it!" Yes, by and large it did, and will again even if the current incumbents are not the best we've had. It has more often than not reflected and given we British (ie, Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish) much to be proud of. I rejoice in my proud association with all my fellow Britons.

BTW, we already have our own international voice in the EU and UN. And, again, notwithstanding some bad moments, it gives we British cause for pride overall.
277

D Napier,

07/02/2008 11:43:26
I am absolutely disgusted that none of the Labour of Lib Dem MSPs had the courage to vote against this budget. What use are they as an opposition to a MINORITY government if they won't vote against them?

This just further reinforces my belief that all politicians are a bunch of wasters who are only in politics for their own personal gain.
278

,

07/02/2008 11:46:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
279

414D3220,

07/02/2008 11:47:49
#312 - Are you the Duke of Roxburghe?

At least some folk done allright.....
280

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 11:50:41
309# Thistledhu

I don't think they've got the energy to implode!
They just seem to be withering on the limb!

Root and branch surgery required I think!
281

Thistledhu,

Fife 07/02/2008 11:52:19
#313 id love to argue against your point but find it hard to do so.

Labour and Lib Dem MSP'S dident vote on party instructions OUR elected Members putting party intrests before the people they were elected to represent.

Lets remember that when the next election comes round
282

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 11:53:15
288

And everybody who lives in a nation or supports a nation is a nationalist. Where do you live?
283

,

07/02/2008 11:53:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
284

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:54:46
299
Media 1,

"Salmond is trumpeting independence and suggesting that it is the best option for Scotland, but he is doing it without first seeing the results of a referendum."

He can suggest what he likes. You don't need a referendum to express an opinion. Unionists say that to remain within the UK is the best option. Do they need a referendum to state that? Let's have a referendum.
285

,

07/02/2008 11:55:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
286

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 07/02/2008 11:56:39
We must have an effective opposition to 'help' and keep some restraint on Government.
At the moment they are like headless chickens, and this is not good for ballanced Political Management.
If Wendy is the best/only leader can Holyrood please help her to determine facts re donations?
287

Disputer,

07/02/2008 11:57:24
319

I have read it. Bilgewater.
288

414D3220,

07/02/2008 11:57:30
Just watching holyrood - Karen Gillon talking about sports provision. Unfortunately the 100m pie chasing competition isn't covered and thus dashes her chances of stardom.
289

414D3220,

07/02/2008 11:58:23
KAren Gillon - Orienteering? Their members canny even find their way to a ballot box!
290

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:00:33
320

The union wasnt forged by referendum it was built on bribery and corruption at least the Nats are going down the democratic path to dissolve it. Ireland was forced to fight a civil war to gain its Independence I dont remember the Irish being given a referendum either.
291

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinbrugh 07/02/2008 12:03:02
319

So has religion so has this Union of the UK so has sex Love, Hate, indifference, ignorance, arrogance and stupidity whats yer point?
292

414D3220,

07/02/2008 12:03:11
Nice one Alex! PEE PEE PEE...........how apt!
293

414D3220,

07/02/2008 12:05:12
Class ! Salmond asking wendy to stay in office! She is a gift allright!

A bit like AM2 on this board
294

,

07/02/2008 12:09:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
295

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:10:08
313

If you conclude that all politicians are in it for their own purposes because Labour are clearly so,then you are seeking to tar those who have principles with a brush that belongs only to those who do not.
Cathie Craigie got this right. If she genuinely was unhappy about the budget she had a duty to her electorate to vote accordingly.She may of course have been swayed by a local election result in Kilsyth where clearly the local electors think that Labour are doing a good job (even though they will be kicked out the length and breadth of the UK).They will no doubt sleep at night secure in the knowledge that we have a Tory government in LONDON, but Labour held Kilsyth !

If Cathie Craigie eventually defects to the SNP it would come as no surprise .If she really did vote on principle(and we have to give her the benefit of the doubt), then a few more gaffes like this one should be enough to make her ashamed to be in the Labour Party. Most already are !
296

,

07/02/2008 12:12:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
297

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 12:13:38
319# Fake Ayrshire

Thanks for enlightening me. Never thought of that.
I'll never get on a 'National' Express bus again.
Or take my car to 'National' Tyres. Or put any money into my 'National' Savings account.

I hadn't realised they were all right wing fascist organisations!
298

pwd,

Hawick 07/02/2008 12:14:05
*320

We had a referendum last year and 83% of the electorate did not vote SNP. Only 17% voted for the SNP. In a miserable turnout when Labour must surely have had the worst representatives they have ever had the SNP could manage only a third of the votes cast - that hardly constitutes a demand for independence.
299

,

07/02/2008 12:14:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
300

scotnat1707,

somewhere in the eather 07/02/2008 12:15:26
Of course, we all know why Labour abstained. London told them to, 'cos if they voted against and the Govt. called a vote of confidence and then an election was foisted on the Scottish people, Labour and Wee Nic's whinging rabble would lose bigtime. The scenario? SNP wins total majority, Independence Referendum brought forward, a "Yes" to independence follows and That's That. WONDERFUL. The Unioniosts could never let that happen. That's why Labour abstained. London and Broon fiddle again. BTW, why did the "National" broadcaster BBC not give more repotage to this highly significant vote? Answer - 'Cos they were feart!!!
301

,

07/02/2008 12:16:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

BMeister,

07/02/2008 12:18:08
335 pwd

What was the vote for all the unionist parties combined? 30%?

Hardly constitutes a demand for the union.
303

,

07/02/2008 12:18:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
304

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:18:30
335 pwd

48% of that 83% didnt vote for the union either so if you want to play spin the figures aboot then that means the union only has support of 35% of the population hardly an endorement is it? you could barely win a UK general election on those democratic statistics.
Yet another irrelevant unionist post.
305

,

07/02/2008 12:19:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
306

,

07/02/2008 12:20:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
307

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:21:52
335 pwd

Another spin on yer worthless stats would be to join the 48% with the 17% and say 65% of Scots dont support the union so why are we still in it?
308

Digby J,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 12:22:22
SNP fattens the Spoilt child of Edinburgh with Capital City Funding.
Too many of our children still look forward to a future of poor health, poor housing, low educational attainment and general lack of social- economic opportunity.
The SNP response to this is to ignore the plight of Glasgow and instead direct even more Public money into the coffer’s of Edinburgh.
Not so much a North- South divide, more of a West-East divide.
Welcome to present day Scotland. All MSPs should hang their heads in shame for failing so many of our nation. It is evident that the insignificant many are better served by Westminster, than by Edinburgh. Donald Dewar’s vision was never like this.
309

,

07/02/2008 12:23:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
310

,

07/02/2008 12:26:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
311

,

07/02/2008 12:28:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
312

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:29:35
345

Maybe if more of the Glasgow numpties had voted for the SNP instead of the plebs then they would have a better representation in Parliament. Funnily enough they will get more from the SNP than they ever did from Labour in spite of voting for them in droves cos Westminster doesnt give a four X for Glasgow either.
313

malkster,

Scotland 07/02/2008 12:32:14
Why doesn't salmond forward a motion for a referendum and make that a vote of confidence?
314

hibbyspurs,

07/02/2008 12:32:30
Was pleased to see that the SNP's first budget passed. Well done to the First Minister & his cabinet for establishing a reasonably balanced and mainly sensible set of proposals. Its not perfect but then again it never will be.

Also a pat on the back to the tories for obtaining the ammendments they wanted and at least then having the decency to vote in favour of the budget.

I never really thought I'd see the day that the tories and the nats were voting together but it proves that minority government can be a good thing as it allows ideas/ policies from all sides of the "house" to be put forward with a chance of being put forward and passed. I was never really a fan of PR but now we actually see it working in a minority government it on the face of it seems to be helping more people in Scotland get what they want.

People have commented that Alex Salmond was "petulant" & "throwing his toys out of the pram" with his quit threats? Well maybe so but the most shambolic & embarrising display of petulance goes to Labour & the Lib Dems. Stripped of power and out of touch with the Scottish people they "spit the rattle" by getting the ammendment they wanted and then abstaining anyway.

Labour are rapidly becoming a spent force across the entire UK, right now the SNP would win another term in the Scotish parliment whilst in UK election the Tories would take them apart.
315

,

07/02/2008 12:32:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

,

07/02/2008 12:34:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
317

,

07/02/2008 12:35:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
318

,

07/02/2008 12:35:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
319

pwd,

Hawick 07/02/2008 12:36:20
*331

What you say is all well enough known. I have visited British war graves on three continents and I am well aware of awfulness of much of what has happened in the past. The marked and unmarked graves of soldiers are everywhere, including my home in the Borders. War has been part of human activity forever, so to speak, and neither British nor Scots can cast the first stone. But still I say overall we British have achieved much and have plenty to be proud of. But then I consider more than war when I look at the balance sheet.
320

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 12:37:59
Wow-bullets and grenades flying thick and fast today! No time to join you at presentexcept to say that my award for Rudest Most ARROGANT unFunny Self Important Poster of the Day goes to...414D3220.. and if anyone thinks I am unjustified in handing out this much prized trophy, just read some of his posts, particularly those insulting AM2.
Gongratulations-even your nom de plume would seem to match your character!
321

Earnst Blofeld,

07/02/2008 12:39:30
#343 Ayrshire Scot: on the subject of parties with “National” in their title, apart from the SNP and the BNP, there’s the National Party in South Africa. Like the SNP, its members are sometimes known as “Nationalists” or “Nats”. Can anyone come up with any more platable examples?
322

Roberta Burns,

07/02/2008 12:39:42
What is happening here? I looked in around 2am and all posts were present (including one of my own). There was nothing out of the ordinary, nothing racist or offensive. Just a variety of different views.
Isn't that what this forum is about?

THE SCOTSMAN SHOULD AT LEAST GIVE REASONS FOR DELETIONS.
323

,

07/02/2008 12:44:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
324

,

07/02/2008 12:44:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
325

KWC,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:44:30
"Tartan Tory tango". This may be alliteration, but if that's the best comment the opposition can come up with, having known for months they were going to lose, then it merely demonstrates why they are in opposition.

I would go stronger, and agree with earlier posts that suggest they are now consigned to the wilderness. Maybe we will see the dismantling of Labour at all levels, which can only be good for the nation.

For the record, I am no SNP supporter but I am willing to acknowledge achievment.
326

,

07/02/2008 12:45:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
327

,

07/02/2008 12:45:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
328

,

07/02/2008 12:47:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
329

weh,

07/02/2008 12:48:23
*362
For the record, I am no SNP supporter but I am willing to acknowledge achievment."


WHO do you support then??

Go on-give us a laff!!


Hahahahhaha
330

Disputer,

07/02/2008 12:48:34
Scottish National Orchestra
Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art
The Scottish Grand National
National Theatre of Scotland
National Trust for Scotland
The Scottish National Blood Transfusion Service
National War Museum
National Museum of Flight
Scottish National War Memorial
Scottish National Opera

etc etc etc
331

Calum Crubag,

07/02/2008 12:48:50
#358 - what about the left-wing Latin American liberation movements? Sandinistas - FSLN and their Salvadora counterpars. There is a long history of progressive nationalism.

As to Salmond... well done. Labour and Libdems are pathetic. So much for 'new' politics. They're just bitter. Useless too.
332

Disputer,

07/02/2008 12:50:43
....Scottish Anglers National Association
Scottish National Sleep Centre
SCOTTISH NATIONAL SWEET PEA, ROSE & CARNATION SOCIETY
Scottish National Photography Centre, Edinburgh
Scottish National Dictionary
THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL CRICKET LEAGUE
Scottish National Equestrian Centre

etc etc etc
333

,

07/02/2008 12:51:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
334

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 12:52:38
331#

You seem to forget that we Scots fully and willingly participated in this British Imperialism and the slave trade - checkout the voters roles in the West Indies you will find many Scottish names, names given to these peoples ancestors by the slave owning Scots.

Do you seek to absolve Scotland from this?
335

,

07/02/2008 12:53:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
336

kimba,

07/02/2008 12:53:04
356. Well said,but it won't go down at all well with the "I AM SCOTTISH NOT BRITISH"" brigade.
337

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 12:53:08
As a post script to 357 I might add that for some of us, these forums,courtesy of The Scotsman, provide a place where people who disagree on issues can have a vigorous debate without resorting to personal insults, where we try as objectively as we can, to seek some kind of truth or at least understand the beliefs and opinions of our opponents. For others I realise it is a place to let of steam, to score cheap points, to brag and bray like school kids-wa,wa wa-wa-wa,to show what aggresive louts we really are behind the safety of these electronic gates. I often wonder how it would be if we all had to meet in person. AM2,for example could be a six foot six giant whose favourite weekend pastime is all out wrestling.
But I suppose its all good clean fun an hey,if you want to call me a numpty or worse-doesnt really bother, but remember your words often really say more about YOU than your intended victim.
As I said yesterday-good budget Alex,but hopefully the opposition will get their act together sooner than later!
UP THE BRITISH!
338

Disputer,

07/02/2008 12:53:24
Scottish National Dance Company
The Scottish National Institution for the War Blinded
THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL EXHIBITION
The National Lottery


So don't give me your guff about national things being somehow "worrying."

...apart from the lottery. It's fixed.
339

,

07/02/2008 12:53:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
340

,

07/02/2008 12:54:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
341

Upandunder,

07/02/2008 12:54:24
#14... dreamer.

What's so great about phasing out prescription charges, free school meals, throwing grants right, left and centre? I live in Wales where there are free prescriptions and families are now claiming vaseline for free - it's been overspent and abused massively.

Oh, and parents should pay for and provide their kids' meals. If they can't afford to feed their bairns they shouldn't have any!

Scotland is heading for economic disaster because there is no meaningful capitalist (ie: growth-focused) lobby in Scottish politics. It's just Labour, trendy Labour (LDs) and kilted Labour (SNP). If Scotland does get independence and English money stops coming in, who's going to pay for all these cradle-to-the-grave statist fantasy laws?

Stop dishing out the freebies (once something becomes free it loses its value and ability to be respected) and look instead at reducing corporation tax, slashing the tax burden, giving people tax relief on private healthcare/retirement home inverstment/private tuition fees and encouraging genuine growth by permitting student-grants only for meaningful job-focused degrees.

It's too easy to bash the English as Tory-voting bigots, but that's it, isn't it: Those very same English Tory voting bigots see more of their money heading north than they see Scottish money heading south, so therefore they're taken for granted here and in Scotland and disrespected out of hand.
342

weh,

07/02/2008 12:54:30
*372

No way! This is SO enjoyable!!

Hahahahha
343

,

07/02/2008 12:54:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
344

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:57:04
356

The British empire has caused more national division war political strife religious hatred than any other entity or empire in history including the 1000 year roman empire. Most of the political and religious problems within India Pakistan Iraq Iran China most of Africa the Middle East SE Asia can be laid at the door of the Brit empire and for what where is it now?
345

weh,

07/02/2008 12:57:18
*379

Are you, perhaps, on some form of hallucinatory drug??
346

,

07/02/2008 12:57:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
347

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 12:57:45
Ayrshi*e Scot - I always thought it was the Scottish National Party - as in the National Party for Scots.

You seem to think it is the Scottish Nationalist Party - the Party for Nationalists in Scotland.

And you seem to think that anyone involved or supporting Alex Salmond fits into YOUR definition of Nationalist - hence the Mugabe comment. Even taking all this on board, I think your comments are still defamatory and should be withdrawn, but I won't ask for them to be removed.

The comments just show the mince between your lugs.
348

Disputer,

07/02/2008 12:58:08
I am Scottish, British & European. So what?
I'm happy to learn & learn from Scottish history, British history & European history. Anyone who says they are Scottish & not British is deluded. We are currently British.
349

Disputer,

07/02/2008 12:59:48
385

The Ayrshire Scot today is a troll & name-pincher.
350

,

07/02/2008 13:01:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
351

Upandunder,

07/02/2008 13:01:56
#379, if you disagree with me, perhaps you could argue why taxpayer-funded freebies for those who don't contribute are a good idea?
352

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:02:02
371

Every country annexed by England including Scotland Ireland Wales India Canada Austrailia New Zealand Burma most of Africa etc all participated within the Brit empire that is what empire is all about. But that participation came from firstly subjegation conquest or annexation and then came the forced participation.
Rule Britainnia right enough.
353

Media1,sa,

07/02/2008 13:02:46
Well done to Alex Salmond!
Was not Wendy's face a picture!
354

,

07/02/2008 13:02:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
355

malkster,

Scotland 07/02/2008 13:03:50
#382

It was all our fault, the African tribes were killing each other before we had even discovered the place. By seperating India and Pakistan we caused the muslims to hae the Hindus did we, religions that we obviously invented. Communism in China was definitley our fault as well, should have just let the pesky Japanese stay there. We did help muck up the Middle east but they had been killing each other in that area since Alexander fought the Persians. Us Scots need to get over the guilt trip of helping found the British empire, it is in the past we helped get over it. You dont mention the modern medicine, technology, roads etc we brought to many countries.
356

,

07/02/2008 13:04:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
357

,

07/02/2008 13:04:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
358

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 13:04:32
379 - I've worked with people like you all my life and still find it surprising to hear this type of bile spouting out of you mouth.
359

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 13:05:32
383 weh,07/02/2008 12:57:18
*379

Are you, perhaps, on some form of hallucinatory drug??


There could be methadone in his madness!
360

,

07/02/2008 13:05:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
361

,

07/02/2008 13:05:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
362

,

07/02/2008 13:06:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
363

Busymale,

07/02/2008 13:06:14
Fantastic triumph for Scotland! At last a government that puts Scotlands interersts first, second, and third!

Far better than the days of the "Old Firm" politicians that thought hey had nothing to do but wear a Party Rosette, make a living out of us, and fill up the expenses claim forms.
364

,

07/02/2008 13:06:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
365

,

07/02/2008 13:07:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
366

Farmernot,

oan ma traictor 07/02/2008 13:09:51
The picture of Wendy looks like she is dabbing a nosebleed !!! Brilliant choice Hootsmon......brilliant
367

,

07/02/2008 13:10:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
368

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 13:11:24
I also watched FMQs - another SMUG performance from Jambo Alex and he still did not answer trendy Wendys question as to why the SNP were claiming the credit for the soon to be built 45 schools planned for and budgeted by the previous labour administration.

If Jambo Alex was chocolate he would eat himself.

369

Media 1,

cape town 07/02/2008 13:12:33
I cannot vote for the SNP, because I dont see Scotland as some little nothing state that is oppressed by England. Instead, I see a strong, passionate and economically powerful Scotland sharing a beneficial partnership with our neighbours! In my eyes, Scotland is not the dire little nation that the SNP says it is....
And my gripe with Salmond is this!
At the moment, Scotland in part of the union! Salmond's remit is to govern Scotland within the framework of that union! What Salmond should be doing is ignoring the independence issue altogether until a referendum has taken place!! Now I am not saying he is preventing that from happening, but until it does, he needs to forget independence.
Truth is, Salmond doesnt really want a referendum, because he knows that Scotland will probably vote against indpendence right now! And that is NOT something he could handle, such is level of his desperation for F..R..E..E..D..O..M (as the nationalists put it)
370

Geoff,

07/02/2008 13:12:52
356 PWD-great post! The Foulkes character will never concede that anything good came out of Britain-thats what distinguishes him (and diminishes the credibility of his contributions) from others-you and I and many of the SNP supporters on this forum included willing to concede that much good came and still comes from Britain notwithstanding our failings. We sometimes lose our self confidence in this. I use little testers to reaffirm-would you rather have been a prisonerof war in a Japanese camp or a British camp in WW2? How come people queue up to get into the UK front and back doors?.
371

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 13:14:19
386# Disputer
&404# Rules...

I agree we're all mongerels.......but I am certainly not a British mongerel!
372

,

07/02/2008 13:14:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
373

Disputer,

07/02/2008 13:14:47
If Labour had said that they would abstain, the SNP wouldn't have had to woo the tories. Therefore Scottish Labour are happy to see tory manifesto pledges passed.

Labour = Tory.
374

,

07/02/2008 13:16:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
375

,

07/02/2008 13:16:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
376

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 13:19:36
#390

Were we forcibly ANNEXED?

Certainly not everybody was in favour - we seem to have played our full part since with Scots Prime Ministers etc.
377

Calum Crubag,

07/02/2008 13:20:05
The whole idea of 'Britain' and it's 'Empire' has been a disaster for the world and her cultures. The British Empire and it's genocidal practices make Islamism seem as threatening as the LibDems.

Leave British nationalism in the past.
378

Upandunder,

07/02/2008 13:23:37
#396... ok, so you disagree with me. Fine.

So, instead of using terms like "bile", praps offer your view as to why mine is wrong.

I'm all ears (or eyes...) now...
379

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 13:25:42
413#

Bridge tolls, rate caps - trinkets for the unwary
380

Miss H,

07/02/2008 13:26:22
409 Geoff. What a completely pointless argument. A lot of good, as well as a lot of bad, came out of the Roman Empire as well - but it's dead and buried now and so is the British Empire.

The question of independence is about the future, not the past.
381

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:26:31
409

How about being a Boar POW in a British prison in Natal. Or a Napolean French POW in a British prison barge? thats of course when they were in the mood for taking prisoners. Why dont you enlighten us all as to what good came out of Britain? and try not to fall into the trap of mentioning anything which may have happened outside of the union anyway.
382

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:28:32
415

There was certainly no referendum or popular support. Most of the support for the union had to be paid for and not only in Scotland either. It was the poll tax of its time.
383

Geoff,

07/02/2008 13:29:08
390Foulkes-ENGLand never annexed Canada,Australia,New Zealand-you talk such rubbish. They all have had their shares of Ethnic Sscots Prime Ministers-Menzies,MacDonald etc. These countries were brought into the modern world by BRITAIN. If id had not been for us the indigenous New Zealanders would still be eating each other for sunday lunch.
384

Blarney,

Lesmahagow 07/02/2008 13:29:20
Yet another wonderfull day for Scotland. The cherry on top of the cake is reading the sour grapes postings on here, keep up the crying and whinging.
The unionists are accelerating downhill fast with castors under their ar#es.
385

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:29:34
408

That would explain your need to live in South Africa then.
386

Miss H,

07/02/2008 13:30:40
422 OK Geoff we see your agenda now.

Great Britain is all about teaching dark people not to eat each other.

Wrong century mate. You need a time machine not a computer.
387

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:31:25
422

Yes it did all of these countries were governed from Westminster and where is Westminster?
Scots Prime Minsters you mean of course unionist prime ministers dont you?
388

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:32:55
422

Brought into the modern world by Britain? was that the spin used at the time to descibe slavery then?
389

,

07/02/2008 13:34:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
390

kimba,

07/02/2008 13:34:29
Salmond reminds me of a child with no friends,he has to promise everything and anything to get someone to be his friend;well don't worry Alex Scotland loves you until the freebies dry up!
391

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 13:34:58
419#

Spot on - perhaps some of "IT WISNAE US IT WIS THE ENGLISH" faction should just accept what happened good and bad, you cant change history and our (Scotlands) part in it.
392

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 13:35:48
420-Tell us anything good that came out of Britain-this page isnt big enough. Try seeing things from both sides-its an enlightening experience,
419 Miss H-far from a pointless argument. I think your man insults my country. Surely you would concede that it can not be a "Four legs bad,two legs good scenario"
If Foulkes represents the New scotland with his unipolar view of history and his lack of tolerance for other opinions then maybe an Independent scotland wouldnt be such a lekker place. And ask him for me-which wud it be the Jap camp or the brit camp? Poor form to answer a question with a question.
393

malkster,

Scotland 07/02/2008 13:35:57
#428

Jackie the union happened 300 years ago, the only nation currently exsisting that you want to get rid of is the UK. You can do exactly that the minute you become more than a loud moaning minority. it's called democracy.
394

camster,

East Kilbride 07/02/2008 13:37:13
As a Tory I am upset with the budget. The reality is that despite all the PR this is a continuation of tax and spend which will do nothing for the Scottish economy. Business rates for manufacturers are already higher than England and now will go up further as we subsidise the small retail shops selling Chinese crap. Messed up or what. The only consolation is that my anti depressants will be free!!!
395

Alan from Brussels,

Brussels 07/02/2008 13:39:37
The Tories should re-assess their loyalty and re-assign it to the Commonwealth instead of the UK. This would allow them to retain their affection for royalty and then have some chance of being an effective party in Scotland. This would then give us two Scotland Only political parties who don't have to look over their shoulders to London for guidance. Also it would give us a classicial leftish-rightish debate instead of the non-sense we are hearing these days from labour and lib-dems.
396

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:41:54
433

Aye right actually I can answer the question for you.
If you are one of the few who managed to get wealthy because of the union then it was a good thing if you were one of the billions who suffered because of the union then it wisnae sae good. So I can see why there could be an argument presented in favour of the union after all not everybody suffered. Silver lining and all that.
397

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:44:17
433

Unipolar view of history? so the empire wasnt built on conquest and war then and the Scottish wars of Independence never happened either?
Are you for real?
398

Media 1,

cape town 07/02/2008 13:44:29
The bottom line is that Scotland needs independence from the United Kingdom as much as Texas needs independence from the United States!
In otherwords, Scotland is just where she needs to be, and she benefits greatly from being there...
Independence talk is nothing more than a misdirected nationalistic yearning for a F..R..E..E..D..O..M that has always been ours, but has supposedly been denied to us by the evil oppressors down south!
Grow up for goodness sake, get behind Scotland and get real.....
399

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 13:46:08
439#

Well said

400

malkster,

Scotland 07/02/2008 13:48:27
#438

All Empires were built on expansion and wars, lots of Scots got rich and lots of Scottish soldiers took part. We have always been overrepresented in the military, Scotland benefited massively from the Empire wheter you choose to like it or not.
401

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:49:14
433

" And ask him for me-which wud it be the Jap camp or the brit camp? Poor form to answer a question with a question."

Ask me yersell ya ignoramous. Wasnt it jolly old Britain who actually first developed the concept for concentration camps in Natal? and not for POWs either but for Dutch families for their women and kids. Have a troll on the net and see how many of these families were decimated through disease and malnutrition.
402

Eugene john,

07/02/2008 13:49:36
#439

It needed to be spelt out to the moaning down trodden minnies who are drones of the SNP.
403

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:50:09
441

Really and maybe you can list the benefits and maybe even tell us where they are now?
404

Ananurhing,

07/02/2008 13:52:43
Watched FMQs. Another class act by Salmond, with Wendy only opening her mouth to change feet.

Another great idea from Goldie. A truth and reconciliation forum! That's us here isn't it?
A forum for unionists to purge themselves of their bile, so that they can accept that the political ground has seismically shifted while they were asleep.

Get it out! We're here for you. We can take it. Get it out, get over it, and we can all move on.
405

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:53:29
I amy be wrong but I think Texas actually has a degree of independence .Its a form of federalism, each state having its own GOVERNOR, where most taxes raised in Texas stay in Texas and belong to Texas as far as I know, but no doubt some one will clarify this better than I can .
406

theburnschap,

The Broch 07/02/2008 13:55:19
417 Upandunder

“If they can't afford to feed their bairns they shouldn't have any!” - I’m sure your parents handed the state back the child benefit they got for you. And if we don’t populate the country with the bairns, who will pay for your pension?

“If Scotland does get independence and English money stops coming in, who's going to pay for all these cradle-to-the-grave statist fantasy laws?” – Scotland will. We aren’t some 3rd world country, and I would have thought that fending for ourselves might well encourage innovation and growth on a much wider scale than the “hand-outs” you seem to think we get.

“Stop dishing out the freebies…… slash the tax burden” – of course that is something that is the fault of the Scots then is it? Maybe getting access to the “freebie” prescriptions will help us to have a healthier population – capapble of working more.

“..encouraging genuine growth by permitting student-grants only for meaningful job-focused degrees.” – Very well thought out. So no need for scientists, teachers, or creative thinkers taking on any degree that doesn’t directly lead to a job then. Suppose the perofming arts degrees should be phased out…..then how will you go to the opera, or classical music fests whilst you swill your vin rouge?

“It's too easy to bash the English as Tory-voting bigots…..” – yes it would be, but I won’t. I’ll leave it to you to generalise about Scots, and in particular anyone who thinks that Scotland standing on its own two feet is a bad thing.

That is why your post was bile.
407

Miss H,

07/02/2008 13:56:50
441 And all empires fail and disintegrate in the end, often with massive bloodhsed.

Why are we even discussing empires anyway?

Have I wondered into a Star Wars forum or what?
408

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:58:24
441

There is much truth is what you say.
However if I was trying to justify Imperialism I doubt that I would employ Imperialism as my only justification! It would say far more about me than it would about the Empire!
409

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:00:01
kimba,

Kimba reminds me of a child with no friends. She has to promise everything and anything to get someone to be her friend;well don't worry kimba. Lia/maxi/kenya love you until the food mountain dries up.

See how childish it looks? It isn't a debate or a discussion. It's simply trolling at its worst. You lower the tone of these threads. Your "arguments" are non-existent. All you do is come on for a swipe. It's pretty childish you know.

410

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:02:38
443

Another master debater. Your insight is truly astounding.
411

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:02:56
441

"Lots of Scots got rich" would you care to expand on that statement maybe show the percentage relative to the population at the time?

No doubt "LOTS" of Scots today are getting rich on the union is that still relative to todays population?
412

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 14:03:11
442#

YOU are correct - but I think it was the Germans (RULERS OF THE EU - THE PROPOSED FINANCIAL CRUTCH FOR AN INDEPENDANT SCOTLAND) that introduced gas chambers - but of course thats no problem they can be forgiven they are ok now.
413

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:05:51
453

Apart from the fact that we're all way off topic, it was actually the USA who used gas chambers in the 1920s.
It was one of their preferred systems of capital punishment.
414

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 14:07:55
In a rush to go out-speak to u later but FOULKES-how would these countries have acquiredthe benefits of mod civilisation had it not been for European colonisation?? If scotland had not joined the union the seafaring Scots would have conquered others with..bibles?
427 Foulkes Unionist Scots Prime Ministers -YES YES! So what if they are Unionist. You strenghten my case-what you are saying is that you could/can only be a Scot if ur a Nat!
415

Eugene john,

07/02/2008 14:08:33
#451 Disputer

Thank you; I appreciate your appreciation and acknowledgement of my debating skills.
416

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:09:58
454

And they are firm supporters of the union so in the logic of monty python and poster 453 Gas = union.
This debate just keeps getting better and better.
417

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:14:37
455

I see so the motivation for empire all along was to help these poor people all reach their full potential within civilised society. And heres me going on about explotation slavery corruption national theft religious intolerance and all those things normally associated with colonialism. Makes you realise how ungrateful those nasty yanks were with their unlawful terrorist war for that evil doctrine calling itself Independence. Didnt they realise we only wanted what was best for them?
418

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:16:07
450

KImba displays the characteristics of a little known medical condition similar to dyslexia .The latin name for it is Non Compus Mentus.
419

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 14:16:26
Miss H and Foulkes-back at about 6.30 GMT-if ur up for a debate see u then!
420

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 14:17:45
454#

Yes you are right we are way of topic, but I believe many people in Scotland are undecided about independance, and I dont think utter condemnation of everything that went before (Empire, institutions etc), will further the Nats cause, you can see for yourself the reaction on these posts.

We could end up like the former East Germany who now have a 50 year gap in history, expect ours would be a bit longer.

421

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:18:30
Wendy to be exonerated.....
422

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 14:19:22
458 Foulkes-458-as always-you only tell ONE SIDE OF THE STORY. There was no religious tolerance in Shaka land,lots of death and oppresion and slavery BEFORE we ever set foot. Your bias is unbelievable-you should get out more-maybe travel a bit!
423

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:19:45
461

First paragraph: Undisputed
Second paragraph: Disputed
424

Geoff,

07/02/2008 14:20:26
461 jj marooner-thank you-sensible comment at last!!
425

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:22:34
461

Reaction from who? the trolls? do you think these cybertrolls represent the unknowns in Scottish politics then? here was me thinking they were representing Gogarburn.
426

Miss H,

07/02/2008 14:24:45
463 In the modern era Geoff pretty much everyone agrees that invading countries and imposing your will on the population at the end of a gun is not a good idea.
427

Geoff,

07/02/2008 14:24:46
442-THE ONLY SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE SA CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND THOSE OF HITLERS WAS THE NAME> MODERN MEDICINE AND HYGIENE WER ABSENT IN 1899. YOU SHOULD LOOK At THE PHOTOS OF HITLERS CAMPS.
428

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 14:26:46
464#

Fair enough I will retract my second paragraph, though that feeling does exist (fading as time goes on) in the former East Germany - would not happen here.
429

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:27:28
463

Really so what happened to the we went there to civilise them then?
And religeous intolerance was perpetrated by the Brit empire in India Pakistan China and yes Africa. It brought Christian doctrine to places the Christian churches never even heard of. And they brought sicknesses and diseases from Europe which the natives had no immunity to.
Aye keep digging yer hole when ye reach the end you can ask the Maoris how they feel about the Brit empire.
430

MtnKat,

07/02/2008 14:28:50
Well done, but I would prefer Alex to return to statesmanlike behavior. John Swinney was the more impressive of the two yesterday.
Willie,
If you can't trust your local council to manage the money in their budgets then I suggest you vote for those that can. There is a lot of unnecessary expenditure now and I am glad that they will be held accountable at last.
431

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 14:28:58
442-Foulkes you still havent answered my question-I see you avoid the difficuly ones. Which one -Jap or somewhere in the home counties with other german pows????
432

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:30:07
468

I dont remember comparing the SA concentration camps to Hitlers I remember comparing them to the Japanese camps. Both held women and kids both caused the deaths of these women and kids through disease and malnutrition. You brought POW camps into the argument not me. I bet you have even forgotton why.
433

Geoff,

07/02/2008 14:30:28
467 Miss H-ta for your reply -catch u later.
434

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:30:30
461

There is undoubtedly some truth in what you say, but we Nats are arguing the economic case of independence which we have defeated the Unionists on, (but there are a few who don't even realise that yet).

It the Unionists who drag history and the British Commonwealth and race into this ,and then get annoyed when they get their butts kicked AGAIN!

The SNP does not care about the past that much, and is looking forward to what they see as a vision for Scotland. Its quite permissible to disagree that being independent and wealthy and happy is the way forward, and it makes us selfish. Thats a matter for each conscience to bear.Its not us who want to dwell on our past.We are trying to escape from its memory and confine it to the annals of history.
435

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:30:33
469

What a reasonable chap you can be!
436

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/02/2008 14:31:40
Has anyone else noticed Teddy Taylor's #260

Is he positioning himself as the Tory candidate for the upcoming Cathcart By-Election?
437

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:31:44
472

Well given the sensible choice I wouldnt want to live in any of em would you?
Whats yer point anyway can you even remember?
438

from Fife,

07/02/2008 14:31:52
The Labour party today reflects the values we see in many of our kids that run about the streets today.. no respect, no manners, no sense of fair play, no princples.. no. .. and it goes on.. They live by the childish attitude... "if it doesn't go my way then I'm not playng". Kerr Hardie will be tossing in his grave.. Its time for Labour to disband and leave politics to those that are seriously interested in the future of Scotland. To-date their track record has reduced Scotland to a complete and utter mess.. just look at health, police, education, housing, transport... the situation in each is worse now than at any time since the 70s.. whilst our decision-makers at local and national level sit back and think things are getting better.... .
439

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:32:46
BBC

"Wendy Alexander will not be facing any further action from the Electoral Commission."

Well that's OK then. I'm off for a spot of accidental burglary.
440

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:33:07
....not in the public interest.....
441

Geoff,

sa 07/02/2008 14:33:17
HItlers camps actively and with an industrial precision unparraleled in the history of mankind,slaughtered 6 million. The sa war of 1899-1901 saw Afrikaaners die as a result of disease and some neglect. There is NO comparison.
442

BMeister,

07/02/2008 14:33:28
358 Earnst Blofeld
'#343 Ayrshire Scot: on the subject of parties with “National” in their title, apart from the SNP and the BNP, there’s the National Party in South Africa. Like the SNP, its members are sometimes known as “Nationalists” or “Nats”. Can anyone come up with any more platable examples'

How about the African National Congress?
443

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 07/02/2008 14:34:03

Wendy Alexander has been cleared by the Electoral Commission, according to The Herald site.
444

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:34:04
Thank the Lord. That means she's staying.
Watch out for the polls (but not the polis).
445

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:35:33
482

So in other words, a little killing is OK, but not mass killing? You've lost me Geoff.

Anyway it's off topic. What about the trams?
446

Glaswegian,

07/02/2008 14:40:50

BBC Scotland:

"The commission said Ms Alexander did not take all reasonable steps to comply with the law.

But it said she took "significant" steps".

447

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:41:38
482

I wasnt making one you were obviously trying to blow smoke over yer stupid argument.
I get that a lot with unionists or trolls pretending to be unionists.
448

Miss H,

07/02/2008 14:41:41
Hmm - does that mean that Charlie Gordon is going to take the rap I wonder?

Cathcart by-election? Another one?

Oh dear I don't know if I can face that!
449

BMeister,

07/02/2008 14:43:07
480 Disputer
'Well that's OK then. I'm off for a spot of accidental burglary.'

Or is it impermissible burglary?
450

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:43:15
487

Did anybody actually expect anything other than another whitewash? but to be honest I am glad she got off like many have said she is one of the SNPs biggest assets just now.
451

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 14:43:26
475#

Fair enough, but I think the SNP need to be a bit more sympathetic about the past - many people are undecided about independance, these same people put a lot into the UK and its institutions and structures and they dont like being preached to by Nats telling them they have got it wrong for all these years.

I believe Alex Salmond if you listen to him is aware of this. At the end of the day extreme Nats will do nothing but harm your cause
452

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:45:07
484

Yes and who believes it?

She admitted here guilt,was responsible by Law (which her own party introduced), admitted wrong doing, tried to register the donation at a Glasgow address and wrote a personal Thank You to the Channel Islands.Then she was ordered to declare ALL her donations and it turns out many were not registered at all!
For exonerated read WHITEWASH .

It was unintentional? So was being cuaght so we ahd better release everybody in custody then

Send for Cathy Jamieson. She has experience of a mass release.

453

Disputer,

07/02/2008 14:45:48
"In a statement, the Electoral Commission said it was "not in the public interest" to report to prosecutors on the issue of whether accepting the donation was an offence.

It also ruled there was no evidence to establish that Ms Alexander's campaign team had sought to conceal or give false information surrounding the donation."

BBC
454

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:46:33
If Unionist Labour abstain so fully from voting at all on financial matters the question must be asked,

Does Unionist Labour warrant having any place in their unionist devolved administration in Scotland? If there is not a labour party that stands for Scotland perhaps there is now time for a fresh pro independent labour party?

Or revel in the new fact that a young and growing SNP Government of Scotland is in the driving seat.

455

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:49:26
Political point scoring ends up in insane schemes like Trams occuring.
This needs to be taken into consideration for politics in the new Millennium here.
456

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 07/02/2008 14:49:59
Try telling the Tax Man or the DHSS - you didnt know you had to do this, or declare that, you will get short thrift.
457

morris,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:50:39
490

I remember there was a wummin in Bethlehem and she didnae ken she had been broken in.


She was innocent tae apparently.
458

The Master,

07/02/2008 14:52:00
So, Alex is revelling in the “utter humiliation” of his opponents, is he? Sorry, but this is just not how this will play to the public at large: people tend to forget that he is leading a minority administration, so the ordinary man in the street will not be in the least surprised that he has managed to get his budget passed. It may be a big deal to all you Nat Fanatics out there, but I very much doubt if it’ll be such a big deal to anyone else. Humiliation??? What humiliation???

Indeed, may I go further and say that the only real significance of all this is that the Nats have demonstrated that minority government can be made to work in the parliament and paved the way for a future Labour administration to follow suit and rule as a minority without having recourse to forming an alliance with the Lib Dems. In any event, the Lib Dems will find themselves in a far weaker negotiating position with Labour as and when the time comes.

What will harm the SNP in the long term is the fact that they largely had to rely on a deal with the Tories. Just as the Lib Dems have come to be harmed by their long association with Labour, so the SNP will come to suffer at the hands of the electorate as a result of their association with the Tories.

Btw, I just love the phrase “Tartan Tory Quango” which Iain Gray has come up with. This is the kind of mud which has the potential to stick, take it from me!