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Barnett 'due for change'



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Published Date: 16 October 2008
THE Barnett formula should be scrapped or overhauled, the man chairing the commission on Scotland's constitutional future has said.
Sir Kenneth Calman said the formula used to decide the distribution of funding across the UK needed to be changed.

Ahead of his commission's first report, to be published before the end of the year, he refused to say what should happen to the formula, set up in the 1970s as a short-term funding measure, but criticised it for being "based on consequentials and not on need".



The full article contains 91 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 October 2008 9:47 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

ThomasP,

16/10/2008 00:20:20
Does it matter?

Westminister has been holding back cash that is rightfully Scotlands anyway despite Barnett.
2

famous 15,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 00:34:20
What is the difference between PM Brown and Jesse James? The answer is Jesse wore a mask when he went robbing!
3

,

16/10/2008 01:57:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

16/10/2008 01:59:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 07:14:04
What they mean is that they want to keep an even higher percentage of the money they steal from Scotland.

The sooner we are independent, and retain all of the revenue raised in Scotland, including our oil revenues, the better. We have been subsidising the English for far too long.

6

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 07:45:14
5 Guga
"We have been subsidising the English for far too long."

Why do people persist with this claim. Proper analytical studies by CPPR at Galsgow Uni, Oxford Economics and even the SNP govt's own figures (GERS 2006/07) show that this is not the case even if a "geographical share" of oil revenues are allocated to Scotland.

7

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 08:08:23
#7.

You obviously don't get out and about much, presumably because of your apt name.
8

Hugo of Garven,

16/10/2008 08:15:33
#7 Ugly George,Edinburgh

"Why do people persist with this claim."

Perhaps because they believe it to be true?
9

danbob,

16/10/2008 08:17:04
Guga 8# Try discussing the issues instead of resorting to childish insults. People who are sat on the fence regarding independence just turn off when we see that. It looks like you have lost the argument already.
10

eric,

16/10/2008 08:17:35
4.4bn we sub the south by.Let them take the money .Just make sure Scotland gets FULL autonomy in return.
11

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 16/10/2008 08:22:35

What does Calman know about the politics of funding the Nation, after all he was the Chief Medical Officer of England and a pretty poor one at that. Letting Doctors pontificate on money is lunancy.
12

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:55:39
Any future government that foolishly decides to scrap or amend Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales's share of Barnet, in favour of redistributing it amongst the English Regions, is in for one huge shock at the polls.

It is best left well alone or watch the nationalist backlash!

This is an English problem? Instead of concentrating all the wealth in London and the South-East of England, maybe some of it could be invested in the poorer English Regions?
13

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 09:44:29
11 eric
"4.4bn we sub the south by"

Where did you gat this figure from? Is it the one somebody suggested as a forecast for this year when oil hit $147 per barrel. Look at the price of oil now - Brent crude $69
14

Ugly George,

edinburgh 16/10/2008 09:45:49
9 hugo
Yes - in the same way that people used to believe that the earth was flat.
15

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 10:59:01
#15.

Yes, and the same way that people like you think that Scotland should remain an English colony, and be thankful for it.
16

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:00:55
7.

UGLY you yourself said that government figures and stats cannot be trusted as they will only be produced to make the present Government look good.
Even the Gers Stats you claim the SNP put forward are derived from the UK government.
GERS isnt controlled by the SNP it is controlled by the UK civil service.
Again you contradict your own lies.
17

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:08:41
7

Gordon Brown himself claimed that NS oil revenues mounted to over 13 billion per annum and that was when oil prices where 30 something dollars per barrel now you add even that lying bullsh*t low estimate on to the total tax revenue taken in by Scottish taxpayers and businesses and its easy to see that the total will surpass the 30 billion given by the Barnett formula.
Didnt you claim under yer SM logon that the two Scottish banks alone had business dealings in the trillions?
Thats the problem with you lying trolls you cant keep yer lies consistant.
18

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 11:18:11
18 Parcel
"Gordon Brown himself claimed that NS oil revenues mounted to over 13 billion per annum and that was when oil prices where 30 something dollars per barrel"
really. when did he say this. And why would he make a statement such as this which contradicts the info put out by his own dept. You must be referring to the year he put this forward as an estimate of the forthcoming year. He has since been criticised for being overoptimistic.

"Scottish taxpayers and businesses and its easy to see that the total will surpass the 30 billion given by the Barnett formula."

Yes that is true but the Barnett formula does not cover all expenditure in Scotland. For example it does not cover the biggest item which is social security payments (benefits etc) and old age pensions.

All you have to do is look at the SNP govt's own figures to get the picture.
19

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 16/10/2008 11:19:28
Barnet Formula due for change. I think it's called Independence, coming your way in the near future. Scotland is Sick of bankrolling Scotch Minnions like Broon, total South of England E*se Licker
20

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 11:21:08
17 parcel
GERS was put together by Scottish civil servants on the instructions of the SNP govt. IF, as you claim, they are false, why did the SNP govt accept them and publish them .
21

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 11:23:54
16 Guga
"Yes, and the same way that people like you think that Scotland should remain an English colony, and be thankful for it."

I have said no such thing. Why do you persist in making up things about me.
22

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 11:27:04
17 parcel
"UGLY you yourself said that government figures and stats cannot be trusted as they will only be produced to make the present Government look good."

That is not what I said and you know it. Will you please stop distorting what I said. What I said was that a govt might chose not to publish something if it did not support its argument. That is totally different from saying that a govt is falsifying figures and then publishing them so please be accurate in your comments.
23

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:28:31
21

Who said they accepted them Ugly can you show us when the SNP accepted and endorsed them? In fact can you show us it was the SNP and not GERS itself which published the results of its findings? and can you show us that GERS didnt get its data from the UK government?
24

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:29:42
23

That is exactly what you claimed UGLY. Christ you would lie to a nun in a convent.
25

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:31:51
23

Come on you Ugly lying phuq produce one shred of evidence to back up any of yer claims.
26

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 11:41:08
25 Parcel
You can make your assertions as much as you like and make things up as much as you like but the truth is there as I pointed out in post 23. as always you just resort to calling anything that does not support your argument a lie. Such is the nature of your debating techniques.

As i said before if all these figures are deliberately false go to the press to expose the falsehoods instead of just claiming endlessly that they are lies. Why don't you?

Funny how you say they are all lies but you quoted Gordon Brown when you thought it supported your argument.
27

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 11:42:18
26 Parcel
"you Ugly lying phuq"

Still exhibiting your usual charm and diplomacy I see.
28

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:46:06
28

Still exhibiting yer usual casual lies deceits dishonesty and party political propaganda.
So which is worse do you think?
29

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 11:50:23
27

Ugly you even contradict your own lies.
You said Governments will only produce data that shows them in a good light. You then base all yer lies on Government data statistics.
Its a bit like seeing the McCrone report come out into the open again. A report which was never supposed to see the light of public scutiny.
You posted a statement I believe was never meant to be posted and you have regretted it ever since.
Now you cant use the government statistical lies to cover your own without being reminded that even you dont believe the government statistical lies you use to back up your own lies.
30

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 11:54:40
30 parcel
Its there in post 23. I never once said that the govt produces deliberately false figures. You can carry on saying this as much as you like but, as I said, the correst position is in post 23.

Anyway, you have said that the govt falsifies things such as oil production figures. Why don't you go the press with such a good story. On you go. There must be loads of investigative journalists who would love that story. Why don't you do that?
31

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 11:55:38
29 Parcel
"Still exhibiting yer usual casual lies deceits dishonesty and party political propaganda"

see post 23
32

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:00:22
32

Yes we know post 23 is another example of yer lies deceits dishonesty and party political propaganda as you yourself so rightly pointed out when you informed us Government statistics cannot be trusted.
33

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 12:03:12
33 Parcel
"you informed us Government statistics cannot be trusted."

Why are you making up comments that I did not make?

Why don't you go to the press to expose these "lies"
34

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 12:04:21
33 Parcel


PS Please point to the thread and date of this alleged comment.
35

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:04:59
35

Deny it exists first.
36

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:08:30
35

Come on Ugly how long does it take you to make a simple denial?
37

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:12:03
35

Fur phuq sake Ugly yer very hesitancy speaks volumes of your own doubt to the existance of the post now either own up to it or deny it.
Lets use this as a testimony to your honesty shall we?
38

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:15:09
35

I dont even have to paste it on here anymore you have confimed it by yer lack of denial.
What an utter tool.
39

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 12:36:09
39 Parcel
I've denied it already. Now thread and date please.
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 12:38:14
39 Parcel
Notice I said thread and date please. Anybody can paste anything.
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:47:55
40

Where have you denied it Ugly?

41

You mean you wont accept your own post pasted from my hard drive that I promised you at the time I would keep and produce at just such a moment as this?
42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 12:53:49
42 Parcel
In post 23 I said "That is not what I said" If that is not a denial I don't know what is.
Now thread and date please or are you just going to make up a comment paste it in and claim that I said it.
Still waiting for the thread and date.
43

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 12:56:52
43

Come on you spinning wee sh*t give me a clear consise denial stating you never posted anything which states that Governments only produce data that show them in a good light.
44

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:00:43
43

And while we are at it lets me put something to you on a hypothetical basis just for arguments sake.

Suppose the UK government had data which proved beyond all doubt that Scotland as a nation generates more wealth than is handed over by the Barnett formula do you believe the UK government would publish this data into the public domain or do you think they would sit on it and publish data showing the exact opposite.
Just a hypothetical scenario I am not suggesting this time that this is the case.
45

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:06:19
43

You statement will include the your logon the date and time. Now let me see a denial you cannot spin from.
46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 13:06:59
44 Parcel
You are obviously getting desperate. The denial is there for all to see. Where is the date and thread.

What game are you trying to play anyway. You have been found out and don't know how to cope with it. All you can do in a vain attempt to cover up your errors is fire out more abuse and insults and accuse everybody else of lying.

When are you going to make up a comment, paste it and claim that I said it.
47

The Tin Man,

16/10/2008 13:15:09
#42 boxospanner

Spanners, I presume you don't really save Scotsman comments threads onto your hard-drive (If you are collecting online newspaper comments threads, that is plain wierd).
48

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 13:15:28
44 Parcel
I'm away now. I've got better things to do that waste time on your childish little games. How is your expose to the press of the govt's lies going.

You can have the last word if that makes you happy. Is it going to be more of your ritual abuse and false assertions. Who cares?
49

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:46:51
49

Oh dont go Ugly here is yer post it was on the blog fae the 30th Sept. Something aboot Cameron which ended up as a discussion about the McCrone report.

109
suchaparcelofrogues,
Scotland 30/09/2008 10:56:00
102

And if this data was available to anybody what was the point in suppressing the report in the first place?

114
Ugly George,
Edinburgh 30/09/2008 10:59:02
112 Parcel
Because it did not match the rhetoric of the current govt. They could hardly publish a report that did not agree with what they were saying. There is no great mystery about that.

118
suchaparcelofrogues,
Scotland 30/09/2008 11:01:55
117

Ah so Data statistics and reports will only ever show the rhetoric of the present govt? didnt I argue that very point last night with you in yer various guises?
Didnt I make the point that you cannot trust govt data and stats because they wont show any data and stats which show them in a bad light

119
suchaparcelofrogues,
30/09/2008 11:03:49
117

So why do you use govt data and stats and reports to back up your arguments knowing full well the data stats and reports are doctored in order to agree with the rhetoric of the present govt?

The numbers as skew whiff but you can go back to the blog and check the authenticity of the sequence.
50

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:49:29
48

Sometimes I save a chosen comment for a few weeks in case I can use it again to catch the lies.
Its incredible how often you trolls trip over yer own lies and contradict them from one day to another.
51

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:56:14
Its worth highlighting that statement again just for clarity.

114
Ugly George,
Edinburgh 30/09/2008 10:59:02
112 Parcel
Because it did not match the rhetoric of the current govt. They could hardly publish a report that did not agree with what they were saying. There is no great mystery about that.

Not tell me your not stating that a government will not publish a report that doesnt support their present politcal dogma? and what is data and statistics tables if they are not reports for public consumption?
You were in this case referring to the McCrone report which was full of government statistics and data concerning NS oil production and revenue figures.
Now spin yer lying way out of that.
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 13:58:27
49

Are you under the impression that the UK media are unaware that the government tells lies?
53

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 16/10/2008 15:00:26
How come Calman is making such statements whilst chairing a group that are looking into all aspects of devolution with a view to reporting back with their opinions on same after they have heard all the views.

We always knew they were a con, but to dispel all pretense, does this mean that the commission feel that things have changed so much that they can just openly show their true colours?
54

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 15:34:07
55

Oh phuq off you spinning lying kuunt how can you even try to pretend yer a ordinary voting member of the Scottish public and post like that.
The McCrone report is up for everybody to see and read for themselves.
Not only did they not publish them but they supressed them and if it wasnt for an SNP supporter comming across them by accident it would still be suppressed.
55

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 17:04:45
52 Parcel
Right. Now tell me where that statement says that the govt publishes deliberately false info which is what you claim. Where is it? It is not there.

So by your own evidence you have revealed that your assertion is wrong. I made no mention of data, stats or figures.

You said in post 17
"UGLY you yourself said that government figures and stats cannot be trusted"

But my comment that you have quoted made no mention of govt figures or stats. All it said was that the govt did not publish a report.

It is clear for all to see that you have made false allegations and attributed comments to me that I did not make. If you have an once of integrity you would apologise and withdraw your false assertions.
56

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 17:11:41
56 Parcel
"Oh phuq off you spinning lying kuunt"

We have seen how your accusations against me are false. We can see how you have accused me of making comments I did not make and how you have, in a futile manner, sought to distort them. Now, in desperation you have nothing left but vile abuse.
57

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 17:13:54
56 parcel
PS
Are you aware of how much of an embarrassment you are to other nationalists who can argue with decency and decorum.
58

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 17:24:17
53 parcel
"Are you under the impression that the UK media are unaware that the government tells lies?"

So the UK media are also part of this conspiracy to adhere to govt lies. Where does the list end? Let me get this right. According to you, the bodies which must be complicit in UK govt "lies" must include :
All the UK media
The Scottish govt.
The International Energy Authority
The Royal Bank of Scotland (oil index report)
UK offshore Oil Association
OPEC
UK oil and Gas
BERR
Inland Revenue
BP, Shell, Tullow Oil, Nexen, Endeco and a host of other oil companies
etc.

So all of these bodies accept the govt figures which you, and you alone, dispute. You claim to know that these figures are lies but all of these bodies are so naive and foolish that they cannot recognise something that is obvious to you.
59

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 17:34:44
Trolls are us

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccrone_oil_reports.html
60

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 17:40:24
62

Ugly how many times do you have to be told there is only one source of data on NS oil and gas production in the UK sector of the North sea and that is the UK government

Not OPEC
Not the Scottish govt
Not the UK media
Not the international energy authority
Not the UK offshore oil association
Not The Royal Bank of Scotland
Not BERR.
None of the oil companies.

The inland revenue and the DTI well its all UK government isnt it?????????

So yer post is as deceiptful as any you have posted in the past. You simply excel as a lying party political multi logon troll.
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 17:41:28
61

So you speak for nationalist bloggers as well as the Liebour party is that right?
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 17:42:23
59

In fact 1980 oil production was only 80.5m tons

Really and who published this figure????????
63

Alan B,

16/10/2008 17:45:01
Calman statement should be welcomed. The Barnett formula must go.

Question is will Brown ignore the advice of Calman as he did with his own commission into the election fiasco.

The question is if Barnett goes what will replace it. It seems to me there are 2 options. Fiscal autonomy. this is the best option. And would mean scotland would raise all its own taxes and give an amount to the uk treasury for shared services.

Alternatively there will have to be some sort of fiscal federalism. Cannot see this really working and will probably cause political trouble, unless done in a sensible way. This would require uk taxes for uk servies and scottish taxes for devolved public services.

Fiscal autonomy will devolution of social security is surely the best way to go.

64

Alan B,

16/10/2008 17:52:36
#sm753

Even you must know by now that from 76 to 95 Scotland subsidised the rest of the UK to the tune of £27 billion (90s prices) because of oil revenues. This information was from the tory treasury based on a question put by the snp in the house of commons at the time.

Of course the snp thought the £27billion was an underestimate. and i think we all know the truth will be somewhere in between what the tories said and what the snp think it is.

But even at 27billion that is a huge amount to take from an improvished scottish economy at the time. It is like England donating £270billion to the US.

27billion over 10years is about the same as scotland giving away 15p in the pound income tax each yr for 10yrs. (standard rate was 25p in the pound at the time).

Also to put this in perspective this was at a time of mass unemployment in scotland while thatcher used the money to rejuvinate the south of england economy creating the massive north south divide that we still have till this day.
65

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 16/10/2008 17:55:43
Trolls are us

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 18:50:41
69 Alan B
"Even you must know by now that from 76 to 95 Scotland subsidised the rest of the UK to the tune of £27 billion"

Sorry Alan but you are indulging in selective info again. First of all the figure was from 1979 not 1976. But also why just chose these years. As I said to you before, to get a true picture you have to take the whole period of North Sea oil revenues not just the ones that suit a particular argument. North sea revenues started in 1964/65 and have continued till now. Please take the whole picture rather than quoting a selected period.
67

Ugly George,

edinburgh 16/10/2008 18:55:44
70 parcel
Why are you quoting a source from the UK media when it is apparent that you feel that all sources merely repeat govt lies. Why should we respect any refeernce you give when you dismiss all others that don't suit your argument as lies.

PS I am still waiting for the apology over your blatant misrepresentation of my comments.
68

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 19:00:35
64 parcel
"multi logon troll".
Since you accuse me of lying and make the above assertion you must be, by any definition of the word, a hypocrite.
69

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/10/2008 20:33:42
Too many people on here think that the earth is round.
70

"Hoots" Fandango,

Hamilton 16/10/2008 21:18:11
In yer dreams sm!

¡VIVA!

 

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