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Defiant Salmond ignores barrage of flak over tax

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Published Date: 04 September 2008
A BULLISH Alex Salmond swept aside the objections of business, councils, unions and a majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament yesterday when he declared that he would drive ahead with his controversial local income tax plans.
The bill to scrap the council tax and replace it with a nationally-set local income tax was one of 15 unveiled in a "programme for government" by the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament.

But in doing so, Mr Salmond was effectively ignoring the results of his own government's consultation process, which has already revealed massive and widespread opposition to the tax plans.

Business organisations, council leaders and trade unionists have warned that the tax would result in cuts in services and leave some wealthy people untaxed, while making Scotland the highest-taxed part of the United Kingdom.

In the parliament, opposition politicians have warned of a £1 billion black hole in the plans, which rely on £400 million coming from Westminster every year – money the UK Treasury has consistently refused to give.

The First Minister was unswerving in his conviction, however, that the local income tax was fairer than the council tax, and he challenged MSPs, warning them that "Scotland will judge harshly any MSP who votes to keep the council tax in the face of the overwhelming benefit that would flow to millions of Scots".

Mr Salmond claimed that about four in every five households would either be better off or no worse off financially under his local income tax.

The decision to press ahead with it was just one of a series of measures announced by Mr Salmond yesterday that will test the strength of his government over the course of the next year.

A Criminal Justice Bill will ban under-21s from buying alcohol from off-licences – a proposal that has aroused fierce criticism from the licensed trade and students.

In a Climate Change Bill, Mr Salmond said his government would reduce emissions by 80 per cent by 2050, a significantly higher target than the 60 per cent UK target, but his plans immediately ran into opposition from environmentalists, who claimed that he had failed to include annual targets and was not bringing aviation emissions under control.

There will also be moves to crack down on tobacco displays in shops, to stop rural schools from closure and a key budget bill, which will have to be passed by March next year for the Scottish Government to fund any of its other priorities.

But it was the Council Tax Abolition Bill that drew most attention, mainly because it has drawn so much criticism already. Mr Salmond said he would forge ahead, regardless of the criticism directed at it in the consultation process, because it would help thousands of ordinary Scots.

The bill will be published before the parliament rises next June and will have to become law by April 2010 for Mr Salmond to stand any chance of getting it up and running before the elections of May 2011.

The First Minister said: "Abolition of council tax will lift 85,000 individuals from poverty and save the average Scottish family between £350 and £535 a year."

Cathy Jamieson, the acting leader of the Scottish Labour Party, said: "We know that the reality is that the local income tax proposals will cause misery for people who rely on local services and cut the legs from local government, making Scotland the highest-taxed part of the UK."

She said Mr Salmond should "stop gambling with people's local services to save his own political skin".

Annabel Goldie, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said local income tax had been "comprehensively rubbished and ridiculed" in the consultation process, and asked Mr Salmond how he could possibly pursue it after that.

The First Minister responded by claiming that, in every test of public opinion, local income tax had been more popular than the council tax.

Scottish ministers will now enter into discussions with the Liberal Democrats to see if a deal can be reached. The Lib Dems also favour a local income tax but want councils to be able to set their own rates, rather than having them set centrally.

If the SNP government agrees to meet the Lib Dem demands, then the two parties will probably be able to forge a deal, but they would still not have enough votes to carry the parliament. For that, ministers will have to win over the Greens, who have opposed a local income tax but might be willing to compromise if ministers toughen up the Climate Change Bill.

There was some confusion over the Lib Dem position last night, however, when Ed Davey, the foreign affairs spokesman, suggested it might be hard to introduce local income tax in just one part of the UK.

This runs counter to the view of Tavish Scott, the party leader, who has insisted he wants to see a local income tax if possible.

Of the 15 bills unveiled yesterday, one on flood risk management was carried over from last year's programme. One other bill that was lost last year, to set up the Creative Scotland arts agency, is to be resurrected, but only as part of another bill on public service reform.

The full article contains 879 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

ThomasP,

04/09/2008 00:07:36
"...and a majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament yesterday..."

If a majority of MSPs spoke out against the LIT plans then it will never happen!!!

This paper should report of useful politics rather then on bills that don't make it in Parliament.
2

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

04/09/2008 00:18:22

The picture with this story paints a thousand words.

Labour have got it soooo wrong on this one.

Once again, they are chasing a predominately Tory vote.

I'm looking forward to seeing the finalised BIll
3

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 00:21:05
I think the photo sums up the current political position :-)
4

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 00:49:36
6
Ok Mike, I give in.

Do you really, really want a job for JP?

Do you have a first born son?

And will you miss him much?
5

Pat Scot,

04/09/2008 01:00:08
This is a sensible programme, and I hope they do well with it. The picture could portray the SNP leadership as smug, but smugness won't work.

As a minority government, they recognise politics as "the art of the possible". It may take a few deals and compromises on the way, and if that's what it takes, just go for it - do the deals, push ahead.
6

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:05:34
8
The Peoples Liberation Army do not have sticky keyboards.
7

subrosa,

04/09/2008 01:07:23
Good photos though. Someone at the Scotsman's got a sense of humour.
8

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:08:49
10
Too late, and good luck to them.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:10:56
14
I acknowledge your expertise.
10

somerferg,

perth 04/09/2008 01:27:56

Love the picture of the 3 monkeys - especially like the check out chick Jamieson although the other two could also quite easily pass as tornado bait too.
11

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:35:48
19
Thanks.

How many do you go through when you are on the Scotsman?

And when you are posting as well?
12

indune1,

Canada 04/09/2008 01:55:26

Mike - do you have anything remotely intelligent to add to the topic at hand (no pun intended, given your previous posts).

Good evening Conan. Long time no see (or read, should I say).
13

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:58:12
21
Good morning Dunnie.
14

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 02:03:26
21
A wee family emergency Dunnie, staying up for a phone call.

If I don't respond again don't hold it against me.
15

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/09/2008 02:04:24
Salmond is hoping that greed and envy will carry the day for his aspirations. He is not interested in the prosperity of our country. Independence is his narrow minded agenda. Scotland will become if he has his way a welfare dependent state. Most hard working Scots will leave and help other countries prosper as we seem to have done historically. Scotlands loss other peoples gain.
16

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04/09/2008 02:16:11
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17

indune1,

Canada 04/09/2008 02:19:38

Conan - hope everything is all right.

You'll be in my thoughts and I'll catch up with you on the threads.

Cheers mate.
18

Alan Reid,

NZ 04/09/2008 02:34:21
# 24, Garbage.
19

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 04/09/2008 03:28:54
24 Shamus, Glasgow 04/09/2008 02:04:24
“He (Salmond) is not interested in the prosperity of our country.”
If Alex Salmond was interested only in his own political career - he would have taken a much easier route and joined the Labour Party. It would have been a joy ride for him and he’d most likely be Prime Minister by now. It’s because (like other talented SNP politicians) he did care for Scotland that he took the harder route an helped built a higher profile for the SNP despite the Scottish Media , most of the teachers, clerics and history books in Scottish schools.
“Most hard working Scots will leave and help other countries prosper as we seem to have done historically. Scotland’s loss other peoples gain.”
Ironically they leave for independent sovereign lands some large (Canada), some small (New Zealand) but virtually all prosper in these self- determining nations.
What is these paranoiac fear, Shamus, of having controlling one’s own taxes and foreign policies?
Hi Alan!!!
20

Robbie 2,

NZ 04/09/2008 03:40:09
28 bring them on,
“Alex is looking more and more like the laughing clown they used to have outside the Fun House at the Pleasure Beach in Blackpool.”
So not all (perhaps none) politicians are 190cm athletic studs. Where does you comment fit into a political debate? You might find in this Parliamentary session many will be laughing at the clowns on the Labour benches as they seek ‘new policies’. What was wrong with Labour’s (original Labour) original policies.
How can you keep looking for new policies after umpteen years without admitting your old one were wanting.
Also remember Labour was originally a ‘home rule’ party - maybe they should revert to that.
21

duelay no more,

perth 04/09/2008 03:49:25
WHO is kidding who?

Tax reform never ends up with a reduction. It merely changes the rules so that those with vested interests can benefit for a while and local government can continue to expand its workforce trying to impliment the changes.

Its invariably about someone's EGO.
22

The Pict.,

Canada 04/09/2008 03:50:39
# 29 Robbie. Absolutely correct. The canny dae that bunnet doffers parrot their english masters while pretending to be Scots.
23

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/09/2008 04:35:03
This paper really does suck, when are you going to catch the message that SCOTLAND IS CHANGEING, and for the better. We are now at last, not putting up with those LYING leibour concervative dead beats and the NO DECISION PARTY lib;dems. SCOTLAND IS HEADING FOR INDEPENDENCE and they cannot stop it. Anyway who is going to buy your paper when you cannot report anything SCOTTISH anymore. Got it, the english !!!!!!!!
24

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04/09/2008 05:13:53
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04/09/2008 05:24:20
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04/09/2008 05:32:42
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04/09/2008 05:33:04
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04/09/2008 05:37:54
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04/09/2008 05:41:16
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30

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

04/09/2008 05:51:38
43 bring them on,04/09/2008 05:35:54

Now that you have got that shoiyt outta da way.

You had best now learn how to accept defeat graciously, as ...wait for it Brown is about to concede, and declare Engerlund an Independent State within Engerlund!

U P Urs Pr ik
31

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04/09/2008 06:17:59
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04/09/2008 06:21:57
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04/09/2008 06:23:17
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04/09/2008 06:25:44
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04/09/2008 06:28:23
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04/09/2008 06:36:53
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37

Bryce Curdy,

04/09/2008 07:08:18
The question that all the spongers rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of LIT need to answer is why should someone else pay for your bin to be emptied when you can afford to pay? Where does redistribution end? Next people will be charged different amounts for the same loaf of bread at the supermarket. I accept the council tax is flawed but LIT is terrifying. People will just move to England. When the tories cut higher rate income tax, revenues actually increased. This is a fact that those who believe in the politics of envy constantly ignore.
38

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04/09/2008 07:32:19
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39

BIG EYE,

Paisley 04/09/2008 07:36:55
I don't know what is going on.

The standards of scaremongering against the SNP are slipping very badly. So far today the SNP introducing LIT means
1. It will be a disaster for poor people who are currently protected by the council tax.

2.Scots who want LIT (about 75%) according to the polls are "greedy". (Old argument recycled to the time oil was discovered).

3. LIT is an SNP bluff which cannot get a majority in the Parliament (remember the budget)

4.Scotland will empty as people move to England to stay loyal to the popular council tax.

5. LIT is unworkable as employers have lost the ability to change a person's tax code.

6. Everyone will change from PAYE to dividend income (a particularly stupid move as dividend income is taxed at a considerably higher rate than PAYE on the first £40,000 (approx) of taxable income. Therefore any such move would COST more than it would save)

Come on Unionists you must be able to do better than this!
40

Scotland to prosper...,

04/09/2008 08:21:27
What's fairer than a tax that is based on you ability to pay?

I hear alot of negative commenting on LIT but very little in the way of an alternative. I can guess that the majority of people agruing against LIT are in the top x% of earners in Scotland.

We all need to pay tax, LIT reflects ones ability to pay, the council tax does not. LIT is proportional, a fair tax....if there is such a thing!

41

Linda,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 08:33:00
# 65

You obviously don't understand what progressive taxation means. If you earn more you pay more if you earn less you are taxed. The Rich are not subsidising the poor they are merely paying their share.

Also the more money in the pockets of the "great unwashed" will result in more money in the economy and more opportunities for business to prosper.
42

Darien,

Panama 04/09/2008 08:33:43
Lets hope for an early UK Gen Election, as the UK economy collapses further, and Brown et al are left with no other option as NewLab implodes. As Tory and NewLab are both now unelectable in Scotland, that could give the SNP a majority of Scottish MP's at Westminster and a mandate to secure independence.
43

Doh,

04/09/2008 08:41:13


Good to see the SNP arguing for LIT, I hope a few Labour MSPs break ranks and vote for a tax based on the ability to pay.

Not surprised by Labours opposition but disappointed in the Greens.

Labour used to believe in fairnes and social justice but not any more. They really are just another conservative party, afraidof progress.
44

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 04/09/2008 08:43:17
LIT will only work and be acceptable if applied throughout the whole of the UK at the same time. We know the SNP can't deliver that so it leaves the LibDems to explain it properly to the whole country at the next election. At that moment the population will realise the genuine benefits of it and the local accountablity that brings - thats real devolution in practice. The revolution contuinues unabated!
45

Salmond Rushdie,

04/09/2008 08:55:01
#71

The no. of SNP MP's at Westminster doesn't mean anything towards independence - it is the people of Scotland will vote on it. If the referendum question includes the question on whether the Scottish Government should be given increased powers of devolution, I feel the majority of Scots will go for that over full independence. At the end of the day, all of this will come down to what question/s are asked? Conversely, if it is a straight yes/no vote, the SNP could fair very well and independence could arrive. Don't forget the polls still show the majority of Scots either disagree with independence or remain to be convinced.

LIT by definition has to be a fairer tax than the Council Tax. Salmond is right to seek a change but he has made a pig's ear of convincing people that it has been properly appraised and costed. I feel the SNP have clearly not properly appraised the financial reality of implemeting the tax. For example, under independence, what will the rate of LIT be with no Scottish Block Grant and Council Tax Rebate coming in from Westminster? After all, it will take a couple of years to get the bill through, for PAYE's to be altered, for govt to decide whether it is Inland Revenue or Scottish Govt who collects it etc. The referendum will then arrive. Salmond to date points the finger at Westminster and constantly blames them for all of Scotland's woes. But his current LIT proposal is reliant on Westminster providing the Council Tax Rebate.
46

Salmond Rushdie,

04/09/2008 08:55:59
Sorry - I meant #69
47

EnglishHighlander,

04/09/2008 09:28:26
This is the poll-tax in another guise.

This time, you won't receive a bill through your letter box, it will come out of your pay packet.

Great!

Why the hell should a household with 1 working person in it pay just as much council tax as the household next door with 4 working people in it?

Bring it on!

Oh, and I'm fed up with my "friends" in England reminding me of how England subsides Scotland in just about everything!!!!!

Bitter jealousy!
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 09:35:02
Here we go again.

The ONLY reason that the majority of folk will be better off under the SNP's 3% flat rate LIT is that it is packaged up with a massive £750m tax cut. If it was to try to recoup the same revenues at CT then it would have to be st at at least 4.5% which would mean a majority paying MORE.

So if the SNP government can afford the tax cut, why not just make the tax cut? Inject £750 million a year into local government and enable councils to cut their CT rates by hundreds of pounds per household.

The point is it is dishonest to say that it is the LIT which will reduce the local tax burden on folk. It isn't. It's the tax cut that will do this, and LIT has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
49

tommy M,

04/09/2008 10:02:02
Interesting use of emotive language in this piece.Looks like more subliminal anti snp rot.

The only "ignoring" that has been done has been by labour, who have ignored the needs of the Scots for decades.
50

David Akers,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 10:10:54
Does Mr Salmond not remember what maggie done to us Scottish, she invented the pole tax, and decided that Scotland was the correct place to try it out it ended up a shambles and the Tories did give in to the public, will he put his thoughts forwards to the Scottish public,before he makes a fool of himself, and if he thinks back the pole tax is what led to the defeat of the Tories
51

noswod,

Honestus 04/09/2008 10:27:25
Theres a wee bit of financial symetary about the £400m the English treasury will withold if LIT (local income tax) The £400m just about equates to the £300-£500 saving per family that Salmond expects LIT to give. The idea of a LIT is good but it is political suicide for Salmond(nee Thatcher) Obviously he calculates that he can use it as a cause celbre in an Independence vote but thta wouldn't get back the subsidy that the Treasury are giving us. I say we should keep taking the money from England that is paying for free parking at hospitals, higher hospital spending, free old folks care, no tuiton fees, free perscriptions and much higher council spending than in England. Sometimes you have to realise you are on to a good thing thing and keep your mouth shut about a romantic notion of creating a divided and uneconomic state of 5 million, bank the cash.
52

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 10:38:22
#75 Duncan

A general tax cut would be totally un-targetted. Your thinking is obviously as woolly as Brown's was when he ditched the 10p tax band.
53

subrosa,

04/09/2008 10:39:49
# 78

The reduction in small business tax has made a great difference to me hasn't it you?

How long did it take for Ireland to achieve inward investment? It was definitely more than 19 months.
54

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 10:40:41
#78 Ronaldo

I think most people can spot a unionist troll when they see one.
55

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 04/09/2008 10:45:57
I suggest all you people on here who think it will be great having the council taxed changed for a higher rated system should look at the european law directive on local government finance, it is illegal to change the the local government finance by changing one kind of tax for another without it being passed by the European parliament. Remeber no matter where we live in the UK we are controlled by Brussels and European law thats what you have all voted for. so parliments have to obey brussels and scotland is not exempt
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 10:53:00
#80 Oh I see - the LIT would target the tax cut so that it applied to the very richest people in society - who don't pay income tax and therefore would end up paying no local tax at all. The poorest people already pay no council tax, so they would be largely unaffected. Rich pensioners would get richer, poor pensioners' circumstances would be unchanged.

Is this the targeting you're talking about? Tartan Tories indeed!
57

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 10:58:15
#80 Furthermore it would be perfectly possible to target a tax cut if the government wanted to, through the mechanism of council tax. To suggest that LIT is the only mechanism for targeting a tax cut is ludicrous.
58

John S,

04/09/2008 11:03:12
Local Income Tax calculator published by Glasgow City Council.
Glasgow City Council has published an online Local Income Tax calculator to allow people to work out whether they would be better or worse off if the controversial tax system were introduced.19 May 2008. http://tinyurl.com/5vcfgf

59

Shenachy,

South Queensferry 04/09/2008 11:10:45
The Scottish Political(?) Editor writes, "But in doing so, Mr Salmond was effectively ignoring the results of his own government's consultation process, which has already revealed massive and widespread opposition to the tax plans." Perhaps a need for the said political editor to have a refresher course in the use of our language and basic maths? If 75% to 80% of people in Scotland support LIT, where does this MASSIVE and WIDESPREAD opposition come from? Answer - a few politically biased business interests and washed out trade union bodies! And if a political editor cannot see the big picture being played out by a very clever politician, he should hang up his pencil.
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 11:14:05
#86 Just a clarification: this calculator allows people to work out whether they would be better or worse off if the LIT were introduced AT A 3% RATE. The LIT itself is not a money-saving system - it is the rate of tax - incorporating a £750m shortfall in revenues - that results in savings for many taxpayers.

I would add that I consider it ridiculous in the extreme that for myself and my partner, who enjoy a relatively high joint income more than double the Scottish average, the 3% LIT rate would leave our local tax burden almost completely unchanged.

The £750m has to be found somewhere.
61

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 11:15:16
#87 On what basis do you claim that "75% to 80% of people in Scotland support LIT"?
62

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 11:37:25
#89 - och, they're all convinced that they won by a huge landslide in May 2007, which gives them a mandate from the Scottish people for all their mad ideas.

Of course the reality is that fewer than 1 in 6 of Scottish voters actually voted SNP, they only won by a sliver over a deeply unpopular and discredited Scottish Labour and their minority administration has little real power to do anything which requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

But the Gnats are about as comfortable with reality as they are with adding up their sums.
63

guenevere,

04/09/2008 11:49:23
Salmond is the most arrogant man alive,who the hell does he think he is,it's about time someone brought him down a peg or two.
64

guenevere,

04/09/2008 12:03:35
Scotland’s annual subsidy from England has shot up to a record £2,200 a head – doubling since Labour came into power in 1997. Scotland in a rare club of countries where state spending is more than half of the entire economy. Only £34 billion was generated in tax. The remaining £11.3 billion was subsidised by English taxpayers. Enough! why should the people of england work to support salmond and his crazy ideas.
65

guenevere,

04/09/2008 12:04:45
85. That's no surprise,he's a sh-t a--e!
66

we the people,

04/09/2008 12:15:07
the reporting of this issue has been shoddy.
a good policy though, originally proposed by the SSP.
Of course the CBI etc are against it they are the bosses's trade union and are therefore against anything that makes the tax system more equitable.
Kathy J sounded foolish in parliament
67

donald,

glasgow 04/09/2008 12:15:57
Three Stooges bring the House down.
68

Miss H,

04/09/2008 12:35:14
86 I've already told you - it's the union dividend. You must continue to pay it to us or we will flounce out of the Union in a huff.

£2,200 isn't enough by the way - I want £5000. That's the cost of independence apparently so we should all get a £5000 union dividend to make us stay.

You know it makes sense.
69

GM,

04/09/2008 13:07:54
Will be interesting to see how this all pans out -

SNP commit to one of their flagship manifesto promises (and get criticised for it!!)

Labour in particular stand the risk of political suicide by objecting fully to the proposal.



ah yes, another win/win situation for the SNP!!!

hahahahaha brilliant!
70

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 13:13:26
The Scotsman has the cheek to print its prospectus from 1816 which pledges "impartiality and fairness", "first desire to be honest, second to be useful", "the requisites for the task are only good sense, courage and industry"

What a lot of boll*cks given the front page headline today and this story. No wonder the Government doesn't listen to your biased rubbish.
71

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/09/2008 13:16:41
Thatcher's poll tax failed. Salmond's poll tax will fail.
72

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/09/2008 13:19:13
Someone should ask Salmond when he last met Madsen Pirie. The truth will out.
73

guenevere,

04/09/2008 13:32:45
91.Please do! English people have had ENOUGH! either Cameron brings in tax raising powers,or you can fook off with Englands blessing.
74

guenevere,

04/09/2008 13:55:00
92. Hardly! Salmond is about to go head to head with the powers that be,salmond will be the loser!
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 14:07:32
#76 Duncan

Childish post.
76

The west awake,

Argyll 04/09/2008 14:12:55
Duncan -
"The ONLY reason that the majority of folk will be better off under the SNP's 3% flat rate LIT is that it is packaged up with a massive £750m tax cut. If it was to try to recoup the same revenues at CT then it would have to be st at at least 4.5% which would mean a majority paying MORE."

- Not so. According to the SNP, who I trust more than the UK Labour Party, £400m will rightly be made up from the money Scotland currently gets as a bribe to retain the hated Labour/Tory Council Tax (if its ours now it should be ours after). The rest, (£280m not £350m btw) will be made up from savings in Council services, (such as their excellent recent move to consolidate and consequently lower the public sector energy bill)
I will give you the point that ultra rich people with zero income would appear to be gaining through this, however I wonder how much money this represents (extremely small sum?) and suggest we cannot sacrifice a fairer taxation system for the vast majority in order to combat this side-issue about a tiny minority. I'm sure the SNP will figure out some other way to get our money back from these ultra-rich (probably Labour Party doners).
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 14:20:11
What a load of unionist trolls on here today.

They must be worried !
78

guenevere,

04/09/2008 14:28:59
106. Why would we be worried? Salmond is about to commit political suicide.
79

Lady Golightly,

04/09/2008 14:35:40
102 said

"£400m will rightly be made up from the money Scotland currently gets as a bribe to retain the hated Labour/Tory Council Tax"


Sorry this doesn't make sense. If you're being paid this money as a bribe to keep the Council Tax(CT) and then you stop having the CT why should they continue to bribe you? Surely the money will stop once the bribe is no longer necessary.
80

guenevere,

04/09/2008 14:43:26
109.Indeed,therefore salmond will have a £400 million deficit,and England will not bail him out this time!
81

Alan B,

04/09/2008 14:48:20
#Duncan

Have you noticed that all parties other than labour support scotland retaining the money from the council rebate.

The tory spokesman on newsnight said that labour were playing silly party political tactical games by trying to withhold scotlands money. And they favour retaining council tax along with their sister party.
82

8/10 Cats,

04/09/2008 14:50:01
Salmond is a big greasy flabby jobby.

Local income tax doesn't have a cap. Can't wait until the scrounging public workers start raping people up the bottom for limitless pots of cash for early retirement.

Hardest workers pay the most. Just think, a new tax on overtime that you have to work because you need the momney because your taxes are so high.

Who do you think will be first to locate their headquarters south of the border. (Because HQs tend to have all the high paying jobs.)
83

Alan B,

04/09/2008 14:50:10
#Lady Golightly

Why do all the other parties support scotland maintain the monies from the council tax rabate other than labour?

What is the point in labour creating a scottish parliament giving it powers over changing something like local government taxation and then withdrawing money from scotland for using that power?
84

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 14:54:26
I have to say that I think Scotland has things pretty good. You are lucky to have the SNP - we here in England are stuck with the Labour Party, a poor NHS and a terrible education system.
85

Lady Golightly,

04/09/2008 14:55:22
Alan B *113

Is the 400 million a bribe to retain Council tax as stated by poster 102?

If it is I don't understand why Labour will carry on paying it if there is no longer a Council Tax.

I think the SNP should make sure that this money will still be forthcoming if they go ahead with LIT, otherwise it seems a foolhardy option to say the least.

Its no good just saying what Labour should do, we need to know what they will do.

86

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 14:56:33
I also think that we here in England are in awe of the way that you have taken a budget cut from the Labour Party and made more out of it than the previous Labour Party Government did - that is plain and simple good management! I think alot of English people are really quite jealous.
87

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 15:04:08
Scotland is a bit like Australia really - I think many people are amazed that you guys haven't voted for independence yet (and why Australia hasn't ditched the monarchy)...devolution has delivered you so many benefits (I think all political parties agree on this point), so it is logical that an extention of devolution.....ie, all the way to complete independence, would be highly successful. I don't think any right thinking person here in England would begrudge you taking that path.
88

Alan B,

04/09/2008 15:05:06
#Lady Golightly

Do not really follow your post?

"Its no good just saying what Labour should do, we need to know what they will do."

What? We know what all the parties would do with regard to council tax rebate. Only labour wants to withhold the money. But even here Jamieson a leadership candidate says they should not. And Gray had to do a uturn when he announced he would abolish council tax.

I would not call council tax rebate a bribe but more a threat from labour. Labour still have not come to terms with losing the election.

Yes it would be silly to introduce LIT without the money from council tax rebate but labour are isolated on this issue. Labour have also put themselves in the ridiculous situation of creating a sp with powers to vary the method of local government taxation, but then will try to punish the sp if it does not choose the same method as westminster. That is barmy.
89

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 15:18:43
#116 What budget cut is that then? You mean the tenth successive above-inflation increase in the block grant? Stop peddling lies.
90

The west awake,

Argyll 04/09/2008 15:23:01
Lady G -
"Sorry this doesn't make sense. If you're being paid this money as a bribe to keep the Council Tax(CT) and then you stop having the CT why should they continue to bribe you? Surely the money will stop once the bribe is no longer necessary. "

It makes sense in the crazy system that is the formula whereby Scotland gets its pocket money from Westminster. As a nationalist I hope you forgive me for not trying to defend that, but the SNPs position is that Holyrood/Scotland gets £Xbnpa which includes the £400m. If we decide to do things different then Scotland still should get X, because thats how much is needed to run Holyrood/Scotland.
Labours position is that you'll get X as long as you run it the Labour way, - typical, crude bully-boy tactics from a Govt who can't handle the SNP and an independent minded Holyrood. They are too used to Scottish Labour Uncle Tam's who gave them no trouble and did as they were telt.
How much we in Scotland like this attitude can be seen in Glasgow East and will be seen in Glenrothes and in the upcoming referendum in 2010.
For me of course the £400m is arguing how many angels can dance on a pin, - we should make our own money and spend our own money - care to argue against that?
91

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 15:28:12
Alan B, you have misrepresented this before and you continue to do so, never mind how many times it is explained to you. This is tiresome.

There are several down sides to any local income tax. The homogenisation of tax models into income-based schemes rather than mixed property/land/income means that tax avoidance becomes far easier, and the overall equity of the tax system decreases. Those who are able to avoid paying income tax, who tend to be the richest people, will now not make any contribution to local services at all.

But then if we look specifically at the SNP's proposals, they pile even more problems in. Firstly, this isn't a local tax at all - it's a national tax, a single rate collected on a national basis and distributed to councils by the national government. This removes fiscal responsibility from local authorities in one fell swoop, leading to a major democratic deficit in local politics.

Secondly, a 3% rate accrues far too little revenue. It is ludicrous to move to a progressive tax model and at the same time require a rebate system to prop it up. In a progressive tax system, a rebate supports the wealthiest, not the poorest! The poorest are already paying nothing. Pour an extra £400m in and that is reducing the bills of the richest people. How can the SNP - or anyone - justify that while claiming to be introducing progressive taxation?

It boggles the mind.
92

The Tin Man,

04/09/2008 15:58:54
Oh well, if LIT is voted-in, it looks like it would start around 2011, and the government can say that they have introduced a tax-cut for the next election, before the 3% rate rises to more realistic levels, or your library closes.

If it is not voted-in, they can say that the other party's scuppered everyone's chances of a tax cut.

Win-win.
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:17:31
#122 Indeed. Cynical, deceitful, and typical of the SNP.
94

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 16:21:18
#107 Ken Wyles-Thenoux

You are one up on me. Unlike you, I didn't know that Jobcentres had pcs for public use, not having been in one. I trust the same cannot be said of you.
95

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 16:21:35
I'm not talking about sticking objects up a poo-pipe, unlike some unnatural people. I'm talking about government cuts to the block grant. Had Labour got in, Scotland would have receieved more more (which it clearly deserves). Us English are undoubtedly living off Scottish oil...although, the billions in revenue spread amongst the population of the UK obviously doesn't have anything like the effect it would have across the population of Scotland. Simple.
96

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 16:22:45
#108 guenevere

Is that right?

Are you actually believing your own propaganda?
97

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 16:24:37
I wish duncan in edinburgh would come down from his high horse and stop banging on about the "The homogenisation of tax models into income-based schemes" - he really has it on the brain. Unable to think for himself.
98

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:25:02
#Duncan in Edinburgh

Can you not answer a simple question?

You also seem determined to come across in a particularly obnoxious fashion. How can any misrepresent anything when they ask a simple question?

I do not support LIT and that was not my point.

The point which you seem to want to ignore was simple. All the other parties in scotland tory, lib dem (and snp) believe the money from council tax rebate should come to scotland. (that is what they said on newsnight last night).

All the other major parties think labour is wrong even when like the tories they do not support the proposals.

99

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:29:02
#Duncan in Edinburgh

It is you that mispresents when you say " 3% rate accrues far too little revenue".

It is a tax cut as such it take in less revenue. Whether it takes in too little or too much revenue really depends on a subjective view. ie whether you support higher taxes or lower taxes.

Many people believe labour has allowed council tax to be raised to high to quickly. You support higher taxes and hence it is no surprise you do not support something that cuts taxes.

Personally i am happy with a property tax but would want it lower and would like to excempt or half pensioners contributions. But then i support lower taxation that you.

It does get tiresome you passing off subjective views as fact, when it is clear they are a matter of opinion.
100

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 16:30:43
duncan in edinburgh is clearly a big labour activist. He is beyond reason.
101

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:31:18
#128 What was the "simple question" Alan?
102

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:33:12
#Duncan in Edinburgh

Sorry simple point. I only addressed on post to you at #111. But you went on a rant about completely other issues.

I repeated the point

"The point which you seem to want to ignore was simple. All the other parties in scotland tory, lib dem (and snp) believe the money from council tax rebate should come to scotland. (that is what they said on newsnight last night). "
103

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:35:47
#Kimg Arthur

He is a labour activist (member). He has said that before.
104

guenevere,

04/09/2008 16:38:25
127.I don't for one second believe you are English,because no Englishman would disrespect their country as you do. If you like it so much north of the border fook off there.
105

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:39:21
#129 Let me try to spell this out again.

The SNP are proposing two separate things here. Firstly, they intend to reduce the revenues from local taxation by £750 million a year. Second, they intend to change the basis of local taxation from a locally-set property-based charge to a nationally set income-based charge.

Sadly, you will never hear an SNP minister stating these truths. They prefer to say, as Salmond did yet again, that "Abolition of council tax will lift 85,000 individuals from poverty and save the average Scottish family between £350 and £535 a year."

This is a lie. The abolition of council tax will do no such thing. It is the reduction in revenues from local taxation - the tax cut - which will do this.

You may claim that I am splitting hairs, but this is fundamentally important, because the SNP are using the "saving money" line to justify the shift to LIT, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with the shift to LIT.

As I have said before, we should separate these two issues out. It would be perfectly possible to set out a scheme for local income tax which: 1) allowed local authorities to set their own rates; 2) recouped the same revenues as the council tax. Then we could have an honest appraisal of the pros and cons of local income taxes as opposed to property taxes.

While we have a government intent on misleading the nation about every facet of this proposal, we cannot have that honest appraisal.
106

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:40:35
#133 That's a damn lie. Point to where I have said that or retract it. It isn't true. I have never been a member of any political party.

Typical SNP smear tactics - if you can't win an argument, spread lies about your opposition. Pathetic.
107

8/10 Cats,

04/09/2008 16:40:54
Salmond is a big jobby.

The SNP are ruining Scotland. They are taxing the living daylights out of decent and well educated people.

I thought Labour were bad for that.

If you are a scaffy public sector worker living in a luxurious council house for reasonable rent you get free double glazing paid for by the decent and educated citizens.

Decent and educated citizens get no double glazing in private flats that cost an arm and leg in rent.

And now Salmond wants the scaffy smelly public sector workers to pay less towards their own double glazing?!

Scary. Head for the borders, social justice is not natural justice, hard work does not pay.
108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:41:45
#132. I see. Not a question then. Do you want me to validate that point? I'm sure you're right. Happy?
109

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:45:17
#135 Duncan in Edinburgh

You post at is completely irrelevent to anything i post. Everytime you post you seem to mis the point of what i am saying and come up with some other point.

I do not support LIT so trying to convince me that it is not the best tax is silly.

I support the right of the sp to change the method of local government taxation but that is a completely differnt thing.

110

guenevere,

04/09/2008 16:46:19
As for 126,i don't deal in propaganda just fact,and the fact is Salmond is about to commit political suicide,he has been warned,but he is to arrogant or stupid or maybe both to listen.
111

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:48:32
#139 Poor you. At least I don't lie about you.

You support the right of the SP to change the method of local government taxation? So do I. Do you support the right of the SP to remove local government taxation altogether and fund local government entirely from a national tax? I don't.
112

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:49:36
#138 Duncan in Edinburgh

I mistype question meant "point". It was just a point i addressed to you earlier. You then posted back stuff that were completely irrelevent to that point.

It is not about validating the point. The issue is labour are trying to stop the council tax benefit coming to scotland if the sp decides to abolish council tax.

All other parties think that is wrong.

I have argued against LIT on these threads as you would see on the other thread today. But do support the right of the sp to introduce this policy if they can gain parliamentary approval for it, without fear of having the monies from council tax benefit stopped.

That is a completely different thing.
113

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:54:45
#Duncan in Edinburgh

"Typical SNP smear tactics "

I am not snp. So is that a lie?

I was under the impression you were a labour party member becuase of a thread discussion i had with you along time ago. I do not know if you remember it but you talked about being a "John Smith type socialist". The impression you gave me was you were labour. I did not mean to misrepresent you as being a labour member if you are not. Are you not a long term labour supporter? You come across as one as you support most labour does and justify them no matter how bad they have been.
114

Alan B,

04/09/2008 16:55:53
#danielrober

You have lost me?
115

morris,

edinburgh 04/09/2008 16:58:11
69

Firstly it was called the Community Charge which is of course a Poll Tax,(not a Pole Tax) .
A poll tax, head tax, or capitation is a tax of a uniform, fixed amount per individual,and takes no account of ability to pay.


Maggie Thatcher did not "invent" it,but I agree she
was certainly its architect in this instance and
was arrogant enough to think she could implement what has been tried and has failed world wide throughout history in various guises.

The Labour Party did as little as possible to object and it was the SNP and the Anti Poll Tax League who had to fight this in Scotland.It was defeated after it was introduced into England which was one year later,but I agree Labour did not want it defeated here in Scotland because they wanted England to suffer enough to also vote Labour.

SCOTLAND WAS A GUINEA PIG and Labour were looking after Labour at Scotland expense !

The reason Thatcher was elected into Scotland was because the majority in Scotland voted for the UK Labour Party for 18 years,and secured four consecutive UK TORY governments which Scotland did not want.

Its bad enough that most Scots voted Labour and got FOUR consecutive Tory governments.

You want to do it again!

Look at the opinion polls!

Labour could lose 200 seats and that will be for a long long time !

To vote for a party which cannot possibly win is just barking!

116

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:58:16
#144 Well aren't we a lovely pair - you argue in favour of the SNP on most points but are not a member; I argue in support of Labour on most points but am not a member.
117

Alan B,

04/09/2008 17:01:55
#Duncan in Edinburgh

"You support the right of the SP to change the method of local government taxation? So do I. "

You have previous argued that if council tax is abolished Scotland should not get associated monies from council tax rebate coming to scotland. That is a big difference, unless you have changed your tune on that. (Even AM2 supported the money coming to scotland but directly to the councils). All the other parties support it. I believe Cathy Jamieson supports the money coming to scotland if we diverge from council tax.

"Do you support the right of the SP to remove local government taxation altogether and fund local government entirely from a national tax?"

Yes if they can get a mandate from the sp. But being a national tax is one of the reasons i am against these proposals. The other being overloading tax on incomes which is already high. I support a more wide based tax system and a small property tax would be part of the basket. Overloading a single type of tax also encourages avoidance and evasion.
118

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:04:09
#134 guenevere - I am English and I love my country, but I can just see that up there in bonny Scotland, things are going really well since the SNP got it. I am a pround member of the ENP - English National Party. We don't want to break up the UK - just to have an equal say and do things better. But, if Scotland wanted to be independent than we have to say, as my old dad says, "its been nice, but everything has to end at some point"...do you not agree??
119

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:11:58
I just wish that England had the chance to do half the clever things that Salmond has done in Scotland. Guenevere - if you loved your country, you would think the same. You clearly don't love England. Perhaps you are half French or something?? I don't understand how you can think like that!
120

Miss H,

04/09/2008 17:20:10
115 Labour cannot say now whether a UK Government will pay the CTB, in part because they are unlikely to be the UK Government when the issue is finally decided.
121

8/10 Cats,

04/09/2008 17:25:13
152 Fu.ckwit

Change the record you smelly public sector worker. You talk with such smugness, you know nothing about politics other than wha garbage the wee fat smelly jobbies put out in their propoganda.

Labour this labour that, change the record. Who cares about labour?
122

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 17:27:51
#148 No I do not support the retention of a council tax rebate in the absence of a council tax. I consider it an utterly illogical proposition.

Income tax is a progressive tax, meaning that there is no need for a rebate scheme because those unable to pay are not being asked to pay - they are being subsidised by those with the means to pay.

If you introduce a rebate into a progressive taxation scheme then you are subsidising the rich, not the poor.

Since the rebate comes from general government revenues, you would be directly taxing the poor to pay the rich.

It is an unsupportable proposition.
123

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:28:11
8/10 cats has a real thing about jobbies. I wonder if this fascination comes from his own incontinent ways? I can only imagine that he sits around in his frilly knickers just letting the sloppy ones go into the silk.
124

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:30:51
Duncan in Edinburgh, "I do not support the retention" - look, we don't want to know about your personal preferences. Safe.
125

Miss H,

04/09/2008 17:31:56
143 Not really sure what you are meaning there. I wouldn't waste my time telling anyone to calm down on the Scotsman forum because it's all fake anyway. Some people come on here to argue points logically but many others just come on for a windup. None of it has anything to do with real politics. This is a parallell universe, anyone who takes it seriously needs their head examined.

But as regards your post at 151 the SNP is not being damaged by this because a) the arguments being made against LIT are completely inconsistent - it is argued that the SNP's policy is at one and the same time a tax cut which will mean hardworking families will pay more. Those arguments can't both be true. and b) Labour and the Tories have not come up with any alternative. You cannot just slate a proposal without stating what you would do instead. What they would do instead is the council tax. So they are seen as defenders of the council tax.

126

Miss H,

04/09/2008 17:32:44
153 Time for your medication.
127

8/10 Cats,

04/09/2008 17:33:26
155 Testicle

Jobby is the only word that nazibot will allow. Even t.i.t is now not allowed.
128

,

04/09/2008 17:34:52
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129

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:34:57
8/10 cats - please, we don't want to know what you are into. I've already warned duncan in edinburgh - you two would make fine bedfellows.
130

Miss H,

04/09/2008 17:35:52
Oh dear. Cheerio loonies.
131

,

04/09/2008 17:37:06
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132

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:37:37
can you believe that beoufe curtains is also banned? (english version) - my description of jackie bailey was only done demi-justice. merde-bags.
133

Alan B,

04/09/2008 17:38:15
#147 Duncan in Edinburgh

"you argue in favour of the SNP"

Not really. I support the snp because of independence, but am do not necessarily support many of their policies beyond that. There is alot of issue i disagree with them on, some i do not have a particularly strong view on, and others where i simply do not like previous government perspectives.

What makes you think i support most of their policies?

In some occassion there are policies i would support that none of the parties have.

134

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:39:38
8/10 cats - i know you are a tranny...or at least a chick with a richard, but, we just don't care.
135

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:43:03
...do you come from Stockton originally? You sound just like a girl I knew who lived there - her name was kimba and she got up to many of the pursuits you talk of, 8/10 cats.
136

Alan B,

04/09/2008 17:44:16
#Duncan in Edinburgh
(laptop crashed sorry)

It is not about a rebate per se.

The general concept of the barnett formula as you know is for scotland to get a share of money spent in england. (Personally i want to move to fiscal autonomy but that is a different matter.)

As such scotland should get a share of money being spent in England. If you take the view that if Scotland differs from England on a policy, because if choices made in sp, then money that would have come to scotland stops, that really is not sustainable.

As long as we keep the barnett formula scotland should get a share of money spent in england. Labour have not really thought through many of the consequences of devolution and that is why they have fudged so much. Only the lib dems really get the concept of devolution but are not in power to implement anything (at westminster).
137

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:46:43
I think the Scotsman gets the readers it deserves. All 12 of them.
138

guenevere,

04/09/2008 17:46:53
149. You are not English,and you talk a load of tripe.
139

guenevere,

04/09/2008 17:50:53
King Arthur is a SNP snout,he's no more English than Salmond.
140

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:52:20
176 - shut up, you half french hair armpitted smell. I am as English as roast beef and petit pois, served with a lovely creme anglais sauce. You can't be English, you don't love your country at all.
141

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:54:06
Guenevere is FRENCH!!!!!!! OUTED AS FRENCH!!!!! She hates England and the UK! We don't believe you, but as a pround Englishman, I say, well done to Salmond for what he has done so far.
142

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 17:55:27
#168 Well then we find ourselves in similar, though politically opposite, positions. I oppose the SNP because of nationalism, but their policies beyond that I judge on their merits. Which is why I get so wound up by the many policies which are simply cynical levers towards independence. Kenny MacAskill started his job talking a lot of sense, and yet none of his policies get pushed forward, apparently because they do not help the independence cause.

Meanwhile I weep for the rump of the Labour party in Scotland because it has completely failed to effectively oppose what is frankly a ridiculous Scottish Government. Labour behave like the SNP won a landslide, when in fact the parties were separated by a few thousand votes - and a single seat. I wish they would wake up and give Salmond a kicking.
143

,

04/09/2008 17:56:49
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144

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 17:58:59
8/10 cats is a window cleaner! LOL!
145

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 17:59:16
#174 Well this particular discussion IS about a rebate. And about recognising that benefits are a reserved matter. If the SNP can't govern within the devolution settlement then they should not have stood for office.
146

The Master,

04/09/2008 18:01:55
"Annabel Goldie, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said local income tax had been "comprehensively rubbished and ridiculed" in the consultation process, and asked Mr Salmond how he could possibly pursue it after that.

The First Minister responded by claiming that, in every test of public opinion, local income tax had been more popular than the council tax."

I find this almost incredible: what Salmond's saying is that the policy's popular amongst the general public, who by and large lack the expertise to spot potential pitfalls, so who cares if it's been ridiculed by those who know better.

I'm quite convinced that poll tax 2 is yet another populist ploy by Salmond and that he's banking on its never reaching the light of day because he knows the fallout could make the debacle over poll tax 1 look like the proverbial Sunday School picnic.
147

,

04/09/2008 18:04:15
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148

,

04/09/2008 18:04:27
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149

Highland Mighty©,

04/09/2008 18:04:28
"A BULLISH Alex Salmond swept aside the objections of business, councils, unions and a majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament yesterday when he declared that he would drive ahead with his controversial local income tax plans."

Atta boy! Why listen to anyone? No ****ing arrogance there at all!
150

,

04/09/2008 18:06:08
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151

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 18:06:16
I was visiting a friend of mine over in Stockton and he was telling me about some of the depraved things that happen there. Now, you Scottish people calm down, but, there was talk of a Scottish bloke who was...well, he was father of a lass and he used to....."do stuff" with her....and her over 18 and all, so she was consenting. Quite filthy. Sorry Scotland, but you have bad eggs as well. ~As my old dad used to say, "some of those people in the Tees Valley are total freaks". And he was right.
152

,

04/09/2008 18:06:50
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153

Alan B,

04/09/2008 18:07:06
#186 Duncan in Edinburgh

All the other major parties disagree with your view that scotland should not get the rebate. (And the tories are the most pro unionist of all).

Many would see scotland getting the council tax rebate money like the unionist parties of the lib dems and tories as working within the devolution settlement.

Why devolve power to change things in scotland if you are going to remove money from the scottish partliament for using that power. Everyone beyond labour can see that is not sustainable.

Hopefully Calman with devolve enough of the tax raising powers to make it all irrelevent anyway.
154

Alan B,

04/09/2008 18:14:43
# Duncan in Edinburgh

"Which is why I get so wound up by the many policies which are simply cynical levers towards independence"

Reasonably which policies can you say that about. LIT is supported by lib dems so you seriously cannot say that supporting LIT is a ploy to get independence.

Calman is to a large extent an admission that serious powers transfers to the sp could/should take place. The lib dems (unionists) are totally behind significant more powers.

If labour would have shut up at westminster they could easily have given the snp enough rope to hang themselves instead it is labour that are generally putting their foot into it.

Why try to stop the exec being called government when it is already done in the much weaker welsh parliament? And why when labours own leader McLeish called for the same thing a few yrs ago.

The biggest reason indendence could happen is due to the severe lack of powers of the sp. 70/80% of people appparently agree.
155

,

04/09/2008 18:27:36
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156

The Master,

04/09/2008 18:53:03
#202 8/10: I've no respect whatsoever for anyone who has seriously convinced themselves of the merits of the Nats' separation agenda, which is more full of holes than a polo mint factory, but there's no need to use such intemperate language!

I am real, btw: ignore the fakey master.
157

guenevere,

04/09/2008 18:57:00
King Arthur. The SNP must be in desperate straights if they have to use a greasy little toad like you,now stop your silly little games and go back to HQ and tell them you were outed.
158

Buckfastleigh,

04/09/2008 21:35:29
What flak? You mingy plutocrats: pay your scot; don't complain about your having to make a fairer tax contribution to us winos on Buckfast wine. It's just envy as you don't see why we should enjoy ourselves at your expense. Stick to whiskey you miserable tykes!
159

Alan Reid,

NZ 04/09/2008 22:40:55

181 Duncan in Edinburgh, 04/09/2008 17:55:27

"I oppose the SNP because of nationalism"
Duncan can you define Nationalism to me?

I support the SNP, but then again I like the idea of Scotland running its own affairs. Things like choosing to go to illegal wars, or not.
NOT spending 100 million on a WMD system, having the power to run the country and not have to ask if it's all right from London. There are many things that Scotland can do itself better if we were independent.

If you don't like the SNP because your worried about nationalism = Nazi’s, I can see your point but I really don't think the SNP are in that league. I know that there are Unionists out there who would hate the idea of their beloved Union breaking up but nothing stays the same. The Union is not a religion; we can still run our own country and still be the best of friends with England.
160

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 00:41:55
SO?
161

Jock MacSprog,

05/09/2008 15:16:08
After discussing his proposals for a new local income tax, with Queen Elizabeth recently,

as a legal and more devious way to achive higher taxes than even Newest Labour had achieved,

Alec Salmon turned to the Queen and said:

"First Minister, I'm thinking of changing how my great country is referred to, and I'm thinking that it should be a Kingdom."

The Queen, who was wearing dicretely symbolic pastel red, white and blue, replied,

"I'm sorry Mr. Fish, but to be a Kingdom, you have to have a King in charge - and you're not a King."

Mr Salmon muttered 'Salmon, not just Fish' under his breath but paused to think for a while. Eventually he said:

"How about a Principality then?" To which the Queen replied,

"Again, to be a Principality you have to be a Prince - and you're not a Prince, Mr. Salmon."

Salmon turned from pink to red, thought long and hard and came up with "How about an Empire then?"
The Queen, getting a little annoyed by now, replied: "Sorry again, Mr. Salmon, but to be an Empire you must have an Emperor in charge and you are not an Emperor."

Before Salmon could utter another word, The Queen said: "I think you're doing quite nicely as a Country."



162

Buckfastleigh,

Hadrians wall 06/09/2008 20:43:33
#214 Watch it: the ghostly host of the IX Legion might be stirred to move north to deal with you if you do not moderate your xenophobic sentiments. Do you happen to hold a Roman Passport?

 

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