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Flashpoint as Calman tests SNP nuclear veto

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Published Date: 03 December 2008
SCOTLAND could lose its veto over a new generation of nuclear power stations, it emerged last night following a major report into the devolution settlement.
The Calman Commission – set up to look into the powers of the Scottish Parliament – warned yesterday of "friction" between London and Holyrood over nuclear power and said the issue had to be resolved.

Its report did not come up with a conclusion,
but suggested that the issue had to be sorted out without disrupting the UK supply network – a statement which the Nationalists interpreted as a clear threat to Scotland's veto.

The interim report also suggested that Westminster might lose control over a number of areas which it currently controls in Scotland, including drugs policy, firearms, drink-driving limits and broadcasting.

But it rejected calls for Scotland to be given complete control over tax and revenue raising. Instead, it suggested that "assigning" tax revenues to Scotland might make the Parliament more accountable, without handing over control over the tax rates themselves.

Energy policy is reserved to Westminster and, as the UK government has a pro-nuclear policy, it should be able to press ahead with new nuclear stations in Scotland.

However, the Scottish Government has the final say over any major electricity generating stations through planning legislation which gives it an effective veto over any new nuclear stations.

This ability to block any new stations has angered UK ministers, who believe they should be able to site new nuclear stations in Scotland.

Yesterday's report by the commission warned of problems that would only get worse unless the issue was resolved.

It said it wanted further evidence on how this "friction" could be sorted out.

One way would be to hand all energy policy in Scotland over to the Scottish Parliament – but this would cause problems over the control of the national grid and be opposed by business organisations and the UK government.

The other alternative would be to strip the Scottish Government of its veto. This could be done by amending the relevant electricity control legislation, depriving Scottish ministers of any power of planning for large-scale generating stations.

The Nationalists claimed the report was a clear indication that the Calman Commission wanted to end the Scottish Government's veto. Shirley-Anne Sommerville, an SNP MSP and a member of the Scottish Parliament's climate change committee, said there would be a "real explosion" of anger if an end to the veto was recommended.

She said: "The commission's questions on energy and planning are clearly designed to please the Labour government in London, whilst taking little account of the clear desire in Scotland for more energy devolution, not less."

She added: "Calman must confirm that he does not intend to see Scotland's essential planning powers returned to the UK government."

Sir Kenneth Calman insisted yesterday that he had not made up his mind on any of the issues in his report and his commission would hear further evidence before making its final conclusions next year.

The commission was set up to review the devolution settlement, and yesterday it set out the issues where it believes changes could be made.

Sir Kenneth divided these areas into two categories, the first being more likely to be changed – broadcasting, energy policy, animal health and movement, drink-driving legislation, firearms, the misuse of drugs, the regulation of healthcare professionals and marine planning.

The second category includes those issues where there might be a case for change, but where there is more uncertainty due to a lack of evidence. These include the civil service, insolvency law, employment law, health and safety regulations and some aspects of immigration policy.

The commission will spend the next nine months or so taking further evidence on these areas before its final report.

It did, however, rule out several issues, including full fiscal autonomy for Scotland – the handing over of complete tax- and revenue-raising powers to the Scottish Parliament.

In a blow to those who wanted to see Scotland gain maximum control over its finances, Sir Kenneth said: "Full fiscal autonomy is inconsistent with the Union, and we do not consider it further."

He added: "Some functions are an integral part of the Union and can only be dealt with at the UK level. For example, defence and national security, international representation, an integrated single market."

The monarchy, the UK constitution, foreign affairs, currency and coinage, as well as some aspects of the economy, also fall into this bracket.

Although Sir Kenneth made clear he does not believe in full fiscal autonomy, there are many different tax and revenue functions that could be devolved to Scotland short of full fiscal autonomy, which might be recommended in the final report.

These include the assigning of tax revenues to Scotland – giving the Scottish Government the exact amounts from each tax raised, without giving the administration the ability to change the tax rates.

Yesterday's report suggested that revenues raised by VAT, excise duty, corporation tax, national insurance contributions and income tax could be assigned to the Scottish Parliament, with Westminster left to set the UK rates.

This would allow the Scottish Parliament to grow these revenues through other policy initiatives, giving it more accountability for the money it spends than at present, but without endangering the Union.

The Scottish Parliament already has the power to raise or lower income tax by up to 3p in the pound, but this so-called Tartan Tax has been rejected by the main parties because it would cost too much to set up, is too blunt a tool to use and would either make Scotland the highest-taxed part of the UK, or lead to a loss in revenue the Scottish Government cannot afford.

Set spending priority but don't set tax rate

Financial powers

THIS is the biggest and most important area for the Calman Commission to consider.

Sir Kenneth Calman made it clear yesterday that full fiscal autonomy is not an option – that would involve handing over control over all tax powers to Holyrood and asking the parliament to send a small amount back to London to cover reserved issues such as defence.

One of the most likely options is the assignment of tax revenues. This would give the Scottish Parliament some accountability for the money it spends but would not give it the freedom to raise its own income.

While the Scottish Government would not be able to control the rates of those taxes, it would have an incentive to introduce other policies to boost its tax take.

The taxes identified by the report which could be assigned are – VAT, corporation tax, excise duties, income tax and National Insurance contributions.

On the transfer of powers over corporation tax, the report said there was a "case" for it to be devolved but warned that some business organisations were strongly against that move.

The report also pointed to "real problems" with the devolution of VAT or excise duty rates between Scotland and England.

All this suggests that the commission is likely to recommend the assignment of tax revenues, in some form, but not the handover of tax levers.

The commission may recommend that the Scottish Government be given the power to borrow money, which it cannot do at the moment.

UK-wide dimension

Powers back?

THE laws relating to corporate insolvency are among the minor issues to be considered by the commission, but they may be among the only ones that the commission recommends returning to Westminster.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Scotland told the commission that laws in this area (which are partly devolved) had not kept up with changes in England.

As companies tend to operate across the Border, there is, therefore, an argument for allowing Westminster to legislate for the whole of the UK.

The commission wants to hear more before making a recommendation, but this is likely to be one area that could see the devolution settlement weakened and Westminster's powers increased.

There also might be a move to bring together some charity laws under Westminster, too.

Cross-border battle for control

Energy

ENERGY policy is almost entirely reserved to Westminster. However, the Scottish Government has power over planning for electricity generation and it is able to use this power to block the development of new nuclear power stations, even though it does not have responsibility for nuclear power.

The Calman Commission believes there should be changes in this area to stop this "friction" between the two administrations.

It could recommend that control over energy policy for Scotland as a whole is transferred from Westminster to Holyrood. That would appeal to the SNP, but it would lead to further disputes over the grid.

Alternatively, the commission could decide to favour the UK government and recommend that the Scottish Government be stripped of its powers over planning legislation. That might be the simplest option, but again it would lead to problems if the UK government imposed nuclear power stations on Scotland.

Yesterday's report was very cautiously worded, asking for further submissions on the issue to find out whether changes could be made "without compromising the integrity of the UK supply network".

The Nationalists believe the commission will side with the UK government and recommend the clawing back of power, but the commission insists that no decision has yet been made.

Channelling new powers to Holyrood?

Broadcasting

THIS issue was one of the first tackled by Alex Salmond when he became First Minister.

He called for broadcasting to be devolved to Scotland and set up the Scottish Broadcasting Commission to look into the issue of Scottish programming and control.

The Calman Commission has decided there is enough evidence to take this issue further.

It could decide to recommend devolution of the whole of Scottish broadcasting to Holyrood. This would delight the Nationalists but would also present new problems.

It would have serious implications for the UK-wide BBC and for the regulator, Ofcom – a fresh regulator just for Scotland might be needed.

It is more likely, therefore, that the commission will call for greater devolution of broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament but leave central functions – including regulation – in London.

Sir Kenneth Calman admitted yesterday that it would be all but impossible to create a new Scottish digital channel, which has been proposed, while having Westminster as the sole body tasked with scrutiny of the BBC.

If a Scottish digital channel is created, then the Scottish Parliament would have to be given a role in scrutinising and holding the managers of that channel to account.

What the Calman Commission has not revealed, however, is how much control Scottish ministers will get over broadcasting in Scotland. It will decide that crucial issue over the next few months.

Holding fire on guns

Firearms

THE commission received evidence calling for tighter laws on firearms, particularly as the Scottish Parliament has control over other offensive weapons.

The Association of Chief Police Officers told the commission differences in approach between Scotland and England would be manageable if they were kept to the "margins" but would be difficult to resolve if they were substantial.

With this in mind, the commission said it wanted to receive more evidence before making a decision.

Blurred dividing line

Animal health

ROSS Finnie, the former rural development minister, who led Scotland through the foot-and-mouth crisis in 2001, told the commission there were clear problems in the division of responsibilities between Scotland and England.

He warned that the two administrations had not functioned as effectively as they might have done.

There was one clear problem: animal health is devolved, yet the funds for managing exceptional circumstances, such as major disease outbreaks, are reserved to Westminster.

This was illustrated when Richard Lochhead, the current rural affairs secretary, had major problems when he tried to get funding for a slaughter scheme for hill lambs last year. This is something the commission will look at and almost certainly recommend for more power to the Scottish Parliament.



The full article contains 1999 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 December 2008 9:11 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

moral___superiority_,

02/12/2008 23:02:14
"Flashpoint as Calman tests SNP nuclear veto"

The SNP has a nuclear veto??

Since when?
2

Brian S,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 00:14:37
It isn't the 80's anyone, perhaps Westminster should take note. The days over riding rough shot over the heads of the Scottish people have long since gone. Like or not the new parliament has given us a voice we never had. I don't think people would just sit back and let them force nuclear power upon us.
3

subrosa,

03/12/2008 00:26:40
I've read half of this report. The constant use of 'within the union' shows how much of a farce the whole thing is.

The libdems won't be happy at being ignored either although Jeremy Purves did his best on Newsnicht to sound positive. I know my libdem friends are spitting tacks.
4

moral___superiority_,

03/12/2008 00:28:41
"3 The Spook in Leith,03/12/2008 00:18:19
#1
Since the SNP won the election and has control over planning in Scotland,"

With a minority Government?

They have no control over anything.
5

BIG EYE,

Paisley 03/12/2008 00:33:47
Oh well the battle lines for the next election are shaping up very well as we await yet more news from Calman.

Nuclear weapons in Scotland.. YES reserved at Westminster

Nuclear power in Scotland.. YES new powers taken to by pass Holyrood.

No additional fiscal powers while maintaining the lie about England subsidising Scotland by completely avoiding the opportunity to "change" this through granting full fiscal powers to "end this abuse"

Will all Unionists candidates have the same surname... Houdini?
6

,

03/12/2008 00:41:53
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7

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 03/12/2008 00:46:17
BBC NATIONAL LUNCHTIME NEWS STORIES (IN ORDER)
1. Thailand
2. Haringay
3.Snow in Cumbria
4.Mumbai
5.Speaker
6. British Airways merger
7. CALMAN COMMISSION

BBC LUNCHTIME SCOTTISH NEWS (IN ORDER)
1. Vicky Hamilton
2. Weather
3. No central heating in Kelso
4. Retired chemist (doing something)
5. Failing engineering companies
6. Calman commission

What does this tell us about, The BBC, Holyrood, Westminster and The Union?
8

Steve A.,

03/12/2008 00:48:46
Take heart fellow nationalists , The waist of space calman con-mission will supply the independence movement with all the ammunition that it needs over the coming months .

It is now obvious to all that Gordon Brown is a megalomaniac and is blinded by his lust for power. He will not be able to control his urge to trample Scotland into the ground , and this my friends will be his undoing .
9

,

03/12/2008 00:53:35
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10

,

03/12/2008 00:53:54
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11

Castaway™ ,

03/12/2008 00:57:51
I feel the real issue is the replacement of the Trident nuclear missile system in Scotland and the mention of new nuclear power station(s)in Scotland is part of that big picture.
12

Edward,

03/12/2008 01:17:13
Hamish McDonnell = Labour Spokesperson
13

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 03/12/2008 01:23:04
Try out dontvotelabour.org.uk. Dampt good.
14

Edward,

03/12/2008 01:23:15
The way things are going, either ZANU Labour will declare marshal law or Mugabe Brown will be arrested
Its a case of take your pick of whats happening. Brown ordering anti terrorist police to arrest oppostion MP and search Parliamentary ofices as well as the suspects smalls at home. The sleaze coming out about Smith Institute fund allegations involveing Mugabe Brown and Ed Balls(up). Also Labour trting to push through additional police state powers of the police enabled to stop and ask your ID for no reason what so ever, no form of ID, then its the jail for you!
15

Edward,

03/12/2008 01:24:29
#20 Dark Lochnagar
You should alos have a gander at http://www.order-order.com/
16

Edward,

03/12/2008 01:28:44
#14
Didnt take the BBC long to slip back in to there old empire ways and have an important story retalted to Scotland (Calman) way down the list well afetr snow in Cumbria
17

,

03/12/2008 01:43:23
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18

allymax_,

geomax 03/12/2008 01:43:48
I tend to agree with 'Steve A', this nonsense of a Calman commission will only show the commission for what it really is, a mouthpiece for London control over Scotland and its peoples.

And, as Steve says, this will only tend to push nore Scots to vote for independence.

Brown-the-Clown really is so far up his own @rse he can't see what he's doing wrong anymore. He lacks reality checking; this has the preponderance to allow the mind to think without realising the moral, social, and ethical dimensions normal people utilise.

A megalomaniac for sure.
19

,

03/12/2008 01:45:25
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20

allymax_,

geomax 03/12/2008 01:45:39
Hey, it's me!
21

,

03/12/2008 01:47:02
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22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 01:53:29


Absolutely none of this has any relevance atall, because at 'end off day'!...

Would our 'Fuel Prices' come down?

I very much doubt it!

Like our,..'Once Was' Great Expectations of 'Scottish Oil'

Dreams were 'Dashed' and became the reality of all being 'Rubbish'!!

Wasted time and effort, Scotland will only fail yet again on this one!

But NEVER SAY NEVER!!

WHY?

Because when our 'Polish Community' start bring out the Politician's, we will be self resourceful and be proud of it!!

Until then, one would be better, to stay with, childhood dreams of,...

...'Santa Clause'!!


Merry Christmas! As our elderly suffer hypothermia, because Scotland, cannot get its act together on "Fuel" or for anything else, for that matter!

23

Comment is Free,

U.S. 03/12/2008 01:58:19
Calman Commission = Rubbish Repository

I have said it before and I say it again. Please read some English North American Colonial History. These are the same shenanigans they pulled over here.

As I have stated in the past, the 50 States in the U.S. have taxation laws that differ from those of the Federal Government and each other. The 50 States raise and spend their own revenues and sell bonds that fund the individual State.

Municipalities within an individual State are permitted to sell bonds as well.

Each State sets its own corporation tax. Each State sets its own income taxes. Each State sets its own sales tax (akin to VAT but not nationally based).

Local municipalities are also allowed to set local taxes to pay for things like police and fire protection.

Individual school districts are allowed to set taxation to provide for free publicly funded education.

Each State is allowed to fund public universities.

Calman doesn't know taxation and governance from a hole in the ground.

It's so sad to see things are only 232 years distant since we told the English to get stuffed, and nothing has changed in English Colonial attitudes.
24

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 02:13:04
Calman's final conclusions were reached before the commission was even up and running. Does anyone really believe that Gaga Broon would allow this commission to publish conclusions that were inimical to his purpose of keeping the union together "whatever it takes"?
25

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 02:21:15
"Although Sir Kenneth made clear he does not believe in full fiscal autonomy ..."

No doubt "Sir" Kenny doesn't believe in many things Scots want. If he thinks his beliefs are relevant he should stand for election. As it is, he is a placeman and mouthpiece for Gaga Broon and as such has no relevance what-so-ever.
26

,

03/12/2008 02:35:51
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27

,

03/12/2008 02:39:28
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28

Guga II,

Rockall 03/12/2008 02:47:03
The so-called "Calman Commission" is, in itself, a farce; set up by the Unionists, staffed by Unionists and already tampered with by the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party.

It is time that the London run and controlled Unionist parties realised that they can no longer ride roughshod over Scotland and the Scottish people.

The sooner scotland regains its independence and gets out from under the jackboot of English imperialism, the better.
29

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 02:49:24
32 W Smith

You seem to be attempting to make a point of some kind. Keep trying - you might succeed.
30

,

03/12/2008 03:01:05
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31

,

03/12/2008 03:07:02
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32

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 03:07:04
I'd love to see Galloway and Salmond debate independence.
33

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 03:09:10
36 Press agenda HQ

One could consider his posts as nocturnal emissions.
34

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 03:45:18

Guga II ~33,

"The sooner Scotland regains its independence and gets out from under the jackboot of English imperialism, the better."

And we all believe in 'Santa'!


The realism IS that, this will NEVER take place!


35

,

03/12/2008 03:55:51
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36

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/12/2008 04:08:25
Assigning taxes without the power to change the rates is a worthless gesture. It is in essence is no different than the current method of funding through the block grant.

How can Holyrood be any more accountable if it has no power to vary the rates?

The answer is it can't. This just exposes the Calman Commission for what it is, a few useless changes to provide cover for a power grab by Westminster.

I certainly hope these scoundrels try and ram Nukes down the Scottish peoples throats.

It will be the catalyst that leads to the Unions well earned demise.
37

donald,

glasgow 03/12/2008 04:09:01
No wonder Labour career politicians are always calling for a Labour packed "Inquiry".
38

Growwild,

03/12/2008 04:21:38
32... I'm more worried that America still have they nasty bombs, after all, they have already dropped a couple, killing how many??

Then what about their pals in the middle east, has anyone ever been allowed access to see what sorts of evil they hold??

War is peace and 2+2=5 for people like you, eh?
39

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/12/2008 04:31:32
#39 Chucky

"The realism IS that, this will NEVER take place!"

It will and it is only a matter of time. It is purely a matter of Demographics.

The Greatest support for maintaining the Union with England is among those over the age of 55.

The greatest support for independence is amongst the young people, that you seem so concerned about.

Since Labours policies have lowered the life expectancy in parts of Scotland to that of the Gaza Strip, they are unwittingly hastening that day.

I would have thought an old codger like yourself would have noticed that the ranks of your school chums have been thinning rather rapidly.

Maybe you have been hanging out with the children to much to notice.
40

Satire above all,

Glasgow 03/12/2008 05:18:37
I think we should have a referendum immmediately to determine whether or not we Scots want nuclear weapons based here on Scottish soil. Let the people of Scotland decide.
41

Satire above all,

03/12/2008 05:29:23
I was outarged that Newsnight Scotland didn't deem it necessary to allow a member of the SNP Scottish Government to have a say on the Calman Report. It was a disgrace but as much as we have come to expect fromthe BBC.

Recently on question time (broadcast from Glasgow) Nicola Sturgeon was repeatedly left at the end of the queue when it came to responding to audience questions. (They never even asked a question about the HBOS takeover - it was surreal!)

Last night was just another example of how air time is being denied to the SNP. The sooner we break away form this lot the better.
42

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 03/12/2008 06:34:50
Excellent news on nuclear energy, Salmomd et al have demonstrated how incompentent and ill informed they are on energy production and cannot be trusted to keep the lights on.
If he thinks he can keep our lights on without nuclear energy he should put his money where his mouth is and cut the grid at the border.

- Must ckeck out my standby generator now !!
43

,

03/12/2008 06:37:46
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44

Thomas1,

// 03/12/2008 06:46:48
There would be a "real explosion" of anger!
"i like the sound of that"
does this mean we can stop being-
"Right Honourable Ladies and Gentelmen" and get back to the basics of negotiation,
"a wink and a nod is all it takes"
we could start of with poll tax riotII
followed by world warIII.
45

Conway,

03/12/2008 06:47:43
It was tax that brought about the Independence of America ,hasnt Westminster learnt anything ?
46

john z,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 06:49:11
I've read it, watched Calman on snoozenight (why no SNP??), and all I can say, is the Calman commission is possibly the biggest undemocratic waste of Scottish taxpayers money, masquaerading as a 'political' process. Maybe Tavish Scott needs to give his part in this some thought.

As for the Scottish nuclear veto - well, that is in the hands of the Scottish people, NOT the Scottish parliament. I for one am not going to stand back and just peacefully allow english builders to stroll into scotland to build a nuclear power station AGAINST THE SCOTTISH WILL.

So, that loveable rogue Gordon Brown can use his puppet Calman to do what he wants, but the Scots will not stand by and let it happen.

Of course maybe we are seeing history repeating itself, and if the Scottish Government oppose the english government, maybe someone else will get an MI5 bullet in the head, just like the late Willie McRae a Scottish lawyer who opposed nuclear dumping in Scotland, who was murdered by the english government in 1985.

Maybe someone needs to have a word with Brown before he 'opens a proverbial 'can of worms'.

People have NOT forgotten Willie Mcrae. There is little people can do, but they HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN.

Calman is just a wasteful joke, used to get what Brown and the english government wants, regardless of Scottish views.
47

john z,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 06:58:03
Oh and while we're talking about nuclear power, Scotland actually generates more power than it uses. england has a deficit, not Scotland. Build nuclear power stations in england.

Importantly, involved with this issue is the nuclear missiles and submarines based on the clyde. Can someone please tell me why Scotland with a population of 6 million, needs to spend billions of pounds a year on four Nuclear hunter killer submarines, with nuclear missiles on board. Get those subs our of Scotland, as the Scottish people NEVER asked for them or wants them.

If england wants to keep pretending it is a global colonial power then the subs can be berthed in the Thames - I'd suggest a mooring point just outside the palace of westminster (apparently they are very safe!!). Scotland needs nuclear submarines and missiles like a hole in the head.

Put them in engerland, and get them out of Scotland.
48

Angleland Isover,

03/12/2008 07:01:49
Willie McRae R.I.P Their is nothing the english wont do to maintain complete control.
49

glassbenmhor,

03/12/2008 07:02:42
Truth is that every single member of the public, within the British Isles needs the extinction of that political cancer the Labour Party along with all its mutant manifestations.
They will shortly be falling through the bottom of the dustbin, nobody could wish this malignancy of supposed governance upon any nation across the globe, The Prime Ministers arrogance is staggering, certainly a sane person might think he was in a bad dream, well apparently in Fife, of which outcome of by-elections beggars belief.
However Nationalists need only sit back and ride the next year of decisions and guidance from Brown and co., and then indeed it will be the Dustbin for Labour everywhere, but unlike the late seventies it will be historical from which there will be no return to power in any recognisable form.

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
50

Thomas1,

// 03/12/2008 07:09:34
The most sparsley populated "region in the UK" just happens to be the country of Scotland,so if there was an nuclear "accident"then north briton would suffer the most,they're only Scottish anyway.
51

glassbenmhor,

03/12/2008 07:10:01
Aye indeed

WILLIE McRAE

Aye

and Brown----"I will do whatever it takes to preserve the Union"

'Whilst glancing around least gasts hoolits MI5's and their Hamilton boogles catch ye unawares !!!"
52

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 03/12/2008 07:13:23
Another nail in the SNP coffin. Given his past record, how long can Salmond last?
53

Angleland Isover,

03/12/2008 07:15:48
As long as the government sits in england it will be an english government no matter who's in power and why wouldn't it be.
54

,

03/12/2008 07:16:11
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55

John S,

03/12/2008 07:16:51
From Scotland to England National Grid-System Transfers examples:
08 Sep 2008 811MW 02:26
24 Sep 2008 1828MW 07:58
16 Oct 2008 1582MW 06:14
12 Nov 2008 1696MW 08:56
13 Nov 2008 1532MW 09:37
14 Nov 2008 1096MW 00:03
15 Nov 2008 1242MW 15:10
21 Nov 2008 1563MW 08:00
23 Nov 2008 1349MW 08:53
24 Nov 2008 1328MW 01:48
30 Nov 2008 749MW 15:15
3 Dec 2008 974MW 07:03
56

,

03/12/2008 07:17:48
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57

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 03/12/2008 07:19:53
Ladies and gentlemen, just a 100/% vote on independence will do for our country of SCOTLAND. The rest of it does not matter!!!! Have a nice day.....
58

,

03/12/2008 07:21:21
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59

eric,

03/12/2008 07:23:13
The report is silly,and designed to eat into nationalist votes.it will backfire .
60

drunken proffet,

Tassy 03/12/2008 07:36:21
You are Scots, the Calman commission relates to an attempt to force an unacceptable situation on the Scottish people. Mind you Sir Kenneth has a lot of sensible things to say it is just that we cannot get used to apologising to the next 50,000 generations for the pollution.
61

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 03/12/2008 07:40:42
It has become utterly clear now that having a Westminster controlled Labour party leading Holyrood (when they were in power) was utterly pointless as they did not act in the best interests of Scotland.

Voting them into power again is a futile act and if done, we would be as well tearing down our Parliament as it would be an international joke (more so than now).

Enough is enough. London Labour sticks in my craw.
62

,

03/12/2008 07:43:45
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63

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 03/12/2008 07:45:24
It has also become utterly clear that Labour DO NOT believe renewables work sufficiently well and are an expensive hobby.

That means thier drive to festoon our natural heritage with mega wind turbines was built on a lie, NIMBY-ism and EU quota filling (the amount of renewable energy built in Scotland would be used in the total UK tally to meet quota while Engurland would remain turbine free to a alrge degree).

So there we have it. A pointless party in Scotland (Labour that is) and whole policies desgined to ride rough shod over Scotland and her peoples.

Nah mate. Stick it where the sun don't shine.
64

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 03/12/2008 07:46:43
67

Indeed. Makes a mockery of the words "Parliament" and "democracy".
65

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 03/12/2008 07:47:03
...and "governance"
66

DouglasT,

03/12/2008 08:06:45
so the calman commission have adhered to the program prescribed by Mr Brown and are already doing the groundwork for building new nuclear plants in Scotland.

Scotland does not want more nuclear plants, England does so build them in England.

I sincerely hope the people of Scotland, regardless of party allegiance, use their votes to stop nuclear being dumped in Scotland.
67

Indy Evolution,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 08:08:54
Never mind the Scottish Office and Jim Murphy will sort this mis-understanding out. Because of course they are there as a go between for Scotland and Westminster - to stand up for the best interests of Scotland. "No", Jim will say, "We are a nation of 5 million and we don't need nuclear power. We are exporting power as it is. This matter should be reserved to Holyrood".
"Oh, yes. You're right Gordon Brown will say. My goodness. You know what if we give them fiscal autonomy it might end this whole 'Scotland--is-subsidised thing too and end the frictions between the rest of the UK. People in England especially believe Scotland is subsised so lets just do what is righ...righ....righ..... woooo ha ha ha ha"
68

morris,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 08:18:39
The issue had to be resolved? There are two ways of resolving this so called issue!
1) Do what the majority of Scots want and make Scotland into a nuclear free zone .
2) Do what WESTMONSTER government wants and be subserviant little lickspittles along the lines of Ian Gray and contaminate your country for generations to come.

Well done Glenrothes you bunch of dolts
Scotland should never never forgive your stupidity.

Scotland will have nuclear power she does not need and nuclear waste she cannot possibly want, if she has a single solitary brain cell left, because there is no such thing as a safe site .Seismic activity exists and that is the End of the Debate!

Why take a risk when you have a generating surplus anyway.Its the UK as a whole which needs the electricity, but in a country (Scotland)which could supply them with clean renewable energy in abundance,this is total madness!

BOY ARE WE THICK!
69

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 08:18:41
No5 Moral,

The Scottish Government has control over planning..


The SNP minority government backed by unionist party MSP's voted with a massive MAJORITY against NUCLEAR.

A moral and correct decision. Does the superiority complex come from bygone days?
70

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 03/12/2008 08:27:17
75

It wasn't proportional and Engurland has many a windy and lofty place per head of population. In fact, they have better conditions in certain places as it doesn't get over windy as it can here. It'a political battle, that is obvious now since this Calman report.

Yes, the Nat policy is Renewable energy but thankfully they are now seeing sense and are looking at marine turbine capacity instead of so much wind. The first strike was to stop the Western Isles wind farm (meaning they listened for a change).
71

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03/12/2008 08:36:15
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Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 08:41:40
#52
john z,
edinburgh 03/12/2008 06:58:03

"Can someone please tell me why Scotland with a population of 6 million, needs to spend billions of pounds a year on four Nuclear hunter killer submarines, with nuclear missiles on board."

John, we are CHARGED for it as well!

See the Gers report.
73

Nikostratos,,

03/12/2008 08:44:02

"which the Nationalists interpreted as a clear threat to Scotland's veto."

Well they would wouldn't they everything is a clear threat to the extremist lying cheating snp

and as morris #73 the antidemocratic nationalist makes claim the majority of scots want and in the same post points out at Glenrothes a majority of free born scots booted out the snp and then he calls the scottish electorate 'dolts'

What a nice man and a wonderful representation of what a nationalist version of one party democracy would be like.
74

David MacVicar,

web 03/12/2008 08:44:57
Fiscal and Energy Control and responsibility, for once the Scotsman at least hints at what Scotland really needs and what the Anglo based parties desperately want to keep control over.
Otherwise: ‘UK Union is at risk’.

‘SNP has Nuclear veto’ – Misleading and false.
- Scottish Gov/Exec has planning control.
-The Scottish Parliament voted against Nuclear build in Scotland already while Lab/Lib were in control, not the SNP. The SNP are putting into action what the other parties in Scotland only paid lip service too until their London bosses told them otherwise!

The Scottish parliament voted against Nuclear build, this vote has not been overturned.

Sovereignty – Scottish people are sovereign, neither Scottish parliament nor Westminster can legislate to remove that right. Calman suggests that UK is sovereign, this is false and if stated in a finalised report could be open to legal challenge.

Responsibility – Regardless of the SNP, either we have an accountable parliament with authority, responsibility and control over Scottish issues or we have an extra layer of government that rubber stamps everything at UK level, no budgetary control, no responsibility and no power over anything except education and law and health like some large Regional council (which was already largely distinct before devolution anyway).

Animal Welfare – the article forgets to mention that Anglo labour voted to compensate farmers in England/Wales, while Anglo Labour in the Scottish Parliament voted against compensating Scottish farmers, for the same crises caused by DEFRA.

On the whole Labour are a complete disgrace, have no policies for Scotland, always vote against Scottish interests when it matters, have a complete disrespect for the Scottish parliament and political process, are corrupt to the core and above all, the key individuals only care about their Labour career.
75

Melly,

Dunblane 03/12/2008 08:48:03
I am sure the good people of London would be happy to accomodate the transfer of the nuclear weapons and subs to the Thames - preferably next to Parliament where thay can organise school trips and days out for the local citizens.
76

gus1940,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 08:52:10
for Calman Commission read Quisling Commission.
77

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03/12/2008 08:54:36
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yockel,

03/12/2008 08:57:03
This is all just bully boy posturing. Do you really think the english will "give" us a nuclear power station if they thought me might run off to independence with it? Far more likely that Broon will engineer a power crisis and blame the SNP because the didn't want nuclear. Just watch how many obstacles will be put in the way of alternatives.
79

gus1940,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 08:59:27
Some day in the not so distant future it is suddenly going to click with the majority of Scots that all 3 opposition parties (The Liberals to a slightly lesser extent) consistently act against Scotland's interests and will always support what is best for Westminster (and disadvantageous for Scotland).

When that day comes the game will be up for the Union and traitorous worms like Brown, Darling and Murphy.
80

DouglasT,

03/12/2008 09:00:31
Off topic, but on a day when Mr Martin takes centre stage and he is most famous for how he mispends taxpayers' money, I thought there might be some interest in how your involuntary tax 'donations' to the olympics are being spent - and I'm sure you will not have forgotten the £400,000 for the logo.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/media/2008/11/the-mirror-tessa-2-desks-cost-40000.html
81

yockel,

03/12/2008 09:04:38
#83 David MacVicar Your point on sovereignty in Scotland is well made and is something which is all too easily forgotten under the weight of rubbish deriving from the south where they appear to have difficulty in understanding things might be different up the road.
82

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03/12/2008 09:04:43
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03/12/2008 09:05:38
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puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 09:08:43
No57 Patrick Reilly,

Coatbridge?

Is it possible that your moniker is from Irish background.?

In Ireland they fought for independence.

Scotland and Scots with many kinds of backgrounds only have to vote for self rule.

Cowardly not wishing to stand on your own 2 feet.

Quislings were not welcome during the uprising before and after.
Maybe you would have been a jail bird that enlisted into the infamous black and tans. Committing crimes like murder and raping the Irish woman republicans

It saddens me that the brain dead have a vote.

Would it not be in everyones interest for a basic IQ test before being elegible to have a right to vote.

Vote SNP .. Kick Calman and his report back to Westminster.



85

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 09:10:59
Interesting to hear today that the identity card scheme might be extended to give the police the power to stop and demand identity papers.

Scottish banks forced to merge with English ones,nationalaised banks, MPs arrested, identity cards, police powers to stop free citizens, nuclear stations forced on Scotland...what a wonderful Britain!


Are thess the 'shared values' all the unionist quislings bleat about?
86

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03/12/2008 09:12:47
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Warden An' All, Reborn,

03/12/2008 09:17:25
We are part of the Union, and most of us want it to stay that way. Then if the Union as a collective wishes to continue with the nuclear path for cheaper power, and lower power bills, then let it be so. How many of us can afford the steep increases to our bill we have all received this year?
88

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03/12/2008 09:17:48
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03/12/2008 09:17:57
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03/12/2008 09:18:08
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salmondella,

Uk 03/12/2008 09:22:00
I am no supporter of nationalism and the SNP but it appears that the union, in the shape of the Calman Commission are determined to scupper the dreams of the NATS by bringing in the forces and well tested methods of the British establishment. This is down to a fear that Scotland may become independent and thus it has to be stopped at all costs, even if that means curtailing democracy and the right of a devolved parliament to raise its own taxes. The NATS are rightly indignant about this, although it is no surprise to me, but their kind of nationalism, even if it was realised would only replace one regime ( the British State) with another( bourgeoise nationalism) The SNP embrace the status quo albeit with the "independent" label tagged on for good measure. What is needed is a smashing of British state by the unity of all working people across the UK under the banner of real socialism.
92

TWC,

03/12/2008 09:22:53
Calman's whole report was a stitch up and an attempt to plug all the holes a devious and vindictive Labour missed when they set up Devolution on the assumption that Labour would always be in power here.
Scotland will always hold planning and that will include Nuclear Plants and waste. That's right and proper.
The whole Calman report is an embarassment to the Libdems and they need to make a really big choice today. They should wash their hands of it.
93

TWC,

03/12/2008 09:22:58
Calman's whole report was a stitch up and an attempt to plug all the holes a devious and vindictive Labour missed when they set up Devolution on the assumption that Labour would always be in power here.
Scotland will always hold planning and that will include Nuclear Plants and waste. That's right and proper.
The whole Calman report is an embarassment to the Libdems and they need to make a really big choice today. They should wash their hands of it.
94

TWC,

03/12/2008 09:24:46
BTW I think Wendy was being straight with the Calman proposal and wanted an option for the referendum but she forgat about that control freak Brown.
95

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 03/12/2008 09:27:47
#94 Maybe you need a history lesson, whilst the political activists were organising their blood sacrifice in 1916 350,000 Irishmen volunteered in the Great War,were they all Quislings? A word unheard of at that time.
96

Calum10,

Dundee 03/12/2008 09:28:32
The Calman Commission:

It came!

It saw!

It squeaked!


BREAKING NEWS: LibDems withdraw support for Calman.
97

salmondella,

Uk 03/12/2008 09:31:17
Just to follow up on my post above, I want to make the point to the genuine suppoerters of the SNP that if this is what the British State in the form of the Calman Commission does with a minority SNP government just imagine how they would act with an independent Scotland -thay would use all the weapons in their armour to aim it at Scotland to undermone the elected wishes of the Scotish people. that is why unity across the the UK with the forces that are opposed to the British state is so important to break the present monopoly. Unfortunately nationalism of the SNP variety only serves to divide such essential unity and favours the unionists.
98

Elephant,

Linlithgow 03/12/2008 09:31:58
Is the SNP opposed to Nuclear on environmental grounds or just because the UK govt isn't opposed? We seem to forget that this technology has spectacular potential and Scotland is an ideal location - sparse population, vast water resources, skilled industrial workforce. In a post-oil economy it could be a fantastic money spinner and would create no more impact on amenity or environment than say a load of dams or wind farms. Finland have realised this and invested in 4 reactors. Oh, and I have a nuclear sub docked opposite my house and the planners don't seem arsed about that...
99

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 09:32:10
This is only an interim report and Sir Kenneth Calman might well surprise many when the full details are published next year?

The Commission is obviously slanted in favour of the Union but when Sir Kenneth was interviewed on Newsnight Scotland he appeared to hold out the prospect of some very interesting proposals to cement the Devolution settlement? His general tone was: wait and see?

However, the overwhelming verdict of the Unionist inspired Calman Commission is that, after 10 years, Scottish Devolved Government has been a great success, and there is no going back to a monolithic, British State which, like the 20th Century, is long Gone With The Wind.






100

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 09:33:41
Calman Commission =

Collusion Commission =

Callabo Commission =

A traitorous waste of time
101

watcher,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 09:34:39
Idiots will have us in darkness if they had there way.
102

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03/12/2008 09:35:52
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03/12/2008 09:36:29
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03/12/2008 09:39:52
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Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 09:41:43
#108
salmondella,
Uk 03/12/2008 09:31:17

That must be the most circular up your own @rse post I have ever read.

The "British State" is so bad to us that we cannot oppose it otherwise it would be even badder to us. We need stay within the "British State" to unite with other forces who are also against it and be on teh receiving end of more of the same?

Who are you actually talking about who would be our allies?

The Tooting Liberation Front with Citizen Smith?

Wurrafuk?
106

TWC,

03/12/2008 09:45:44
#112 are you scared of the dark as well as going out on your own. Scotland doesn't need nulear power and if it does in the futurethey can buy a power station provided they have control over their economy.
None of Calman's proposals are centred on what is best for Scotland it is like the Labour party itselfe centred on what Labour want.
The other parties and the people have been manipulated yet again. The Nats would appear to be right about what they say abou Labour certainly New Labour.
107

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 09:45:53
Excellent news!

That will stop any loony government that idiots might vote in from putting the UK's power generation in jeopardy.
108

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03/12/2008 09:48:06
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03/12/2008 09:49:16
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Ananurhing,

03/12/2008 09:50:15
#57 Patrick O' Reilly, Coatbridge

So you've moved house have you Patrick? In the past you always posted from Larkhall. It was your alter ego Robert Mason who posted from Coatbridge, and you two always appeared together, and conversed with each other. Hmmmmmm! Highly suspect! Or just a tad confused this morning are we?

I remember the two of you joining together to have a pop at me, blaming me for Scotland's sectarian ills.
You from Larkhall, him from Coatbridge. Aye right!!
111

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03/12/2008 09:50:41
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Ananurhing,

03/12/2008 09:55:37
#111 Fred Quimby

Or the Comprador Commission!

Comprador = A native agent of a foreign enterprise.
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03/12/2008 09:58:59
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salmondella,

UK 03/12/2008 10:01:05
#116 Fred - so whats your alternative Mr Quimby? - declare Unilateral Independence, don the kilts and bare your behinds at Calman and Westminster? Another utopian NAT.
115

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 10:01:48
No96.

Hi Nevsky,

Thank you. A gentleman.

116

Doh,

03/12/2008 10:06:24

What is that old joke about Royal Commissions -
last for years and take minutes.

Calman is a missed opportunity.
117

Number 6,

Germany 03/12/2008 10:07:57
Scotland has more than enough energy for our needs . If englandshire can't stop breeding like rabbitts and is running out of power, thats THEIR problem, not Scotland's.

Why oh why are Scottish unionistas so incredibly stupid that they think it is Scotland's duty to power England.

Just incredible.
118

morris,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 10:10:10
82



You neglected to mention that the opposite was true at Glasgow East of course, which negates your Glenrothes result at least,plus the swing was toward the SNP AGAIN in BOTH seats. I believe a majority of Scottish MSPs favoured a minimal presence at least if not removal of Nuclear establishments. The representatives of the majority of people in Scotland were opposed to any further nuclear development,(but of course that may have changed under orders from Head Office , which is hardly a feather in the Labour MSPs cap I would have thought ?
I did NOT say that I do not accept democratic decisions.I have no choice nor do I wish it to be otherwise.
YOU DID !Its rubbish of course.
I accept their elected representative, but that does not mean I agree with them and everybody who did not vote Labour also disagrees with them.
The claim that what I type could bear any reflection upon what would happen in an independent Scotland has as much credibility as a claim that I typify what happens in the UK which I currently live in!

I represent less than 4% of UK held views !
IN OTHER WORDS A DAFT COMMENT IF EVER THERE WAS ONE!
Irrespective of how you paint this it's a quite different thing and the opposite of undemocratic.Its called freedom of expression.
I disagree with you fundamentally but I still read your posts !It does not make me undemocratic because I oppose you.If anyone is guilty of denying people the right to choose its clearly supporters of Westminster who defend this insult to most Scots intellect(but clearly you are not insulted)!

119

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 10:19:37
Dear Salmonella,

You have advanced nowt of any intellect or logic, have the gall to attack me for pointing that out, and declare I am a Utopian Nat which therefor elevates your incoherent slaverings to a policy.

Rearrange these words into a well known phrase

brains for pun o mince

You do not live in Galloway do you?
120

oder,

Scotland 03/12/2008 10:21:11
things are stirring in England's Northern province but remember everything is done for the greater good of England! support the union! independent thinking Scots are idiots, the Scots native species are totally addicted to subsidies from their benevolent southern neighbors and the vast majority to dumb to realise it!
A quisling running Westminster is fine, but a native sub-species running Scotland! Never! vote labour! those idiots in Glenrothes did.

250 000 tons of toxic waste to be dumped in Falkirk and that's before they build the power stations!
a Win Win situation for Scotland! England legacy all this new investment in infrastructure new roads sporting centres and so on! ain't the Olympics great? and we get the waste! Scots clearly understand the benefits of union.
121

morris,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 10:21:38
131
Salmond is an elected First Minister who has the authority to be where he is, in as legitimate a process as exists.
Brown also has this in absolute equality.
Your comments can only be true therefore,if they equally apply to Gordon Brown,which would hardly enrich your views or clarity of thought would it?
122

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 10:23:33
No106 Mercutio,

Your cute .

Quisling .. Don't be silly. The word present day can be used for others in the past .. Understand. ( Plenty on this site )

Ist World War... Well I wouldn't and you shouldn't imply Quisling was used in that context unless you have your head up your ****.
Many at the time like my grandfather ( Boar War, 1st World War) fought for King and country. Aye taken in by the British Government propaganda machine.


A southern Irishmen, a Spitfire pilot during the Battle for London 2nd WW had more kills than any other. A Quisling ? Never.

Now a quisling during the revolt would have been??





123

David MacVicar,

Web 03/12/2008 10:25:02
While the article gives a useful overview for your average 12 year old it misses completely the simmering issue for the Lib dems.

Calman reinforces the Labour and Tory positions on the Union, no surprise there, but it is one huge slap in the face for the Lib Dems, a major embarrassment and a potential disaster.

The lib dems central constitutional position for Scotland has been completely ignored. Worse, the Lib dems participated in its production! It makes them a complete non entity in the process and a laughing stock.

Where does that leave the diminishing core of Lib dems who want federated home rule?
It is put up or shut up time for the lib dems. They either have a policy for home rule or they don’t, time to get of the fence. If they do not get Calman to change its direction (no chance) or do not refuse to continue to take part in this farce they are well and truly finished in regional North Britain.

P.S. Excellent posts Traquir, always providing clarity where there is only political obfuscation, shining a light in the obscurity and ‘tenebre’ of a Scottish press vacuum!
124

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 10:26:04
No 131 .. Yur aff yir heed.. You should be sectioned.
125

Yeah1,

03/12/2008 10:27:43
#94

"It saddens me that the brain dead have a vote. Would it not be in everyones interest for a basic IQ test before being elegible to have a right to vote. Vote SNP .. Kick Calman and his report back to Westminster."

I hope your views are not representative of how the SNP would hold elections were Scotland to become independent.

Next you will be saying only those who vote for the SNP should be allowed to vote...

Clearly under your own criteria you would not be able to vote anyway, you would obviously fail the IQ test considering you can't even spell eligible.
126

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 10:29:37
#138
Yeah1,
03/12/2008 10:27:43

You back again?

Scunnert is hunting you!

Doink, Doink!
127

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 10:30:54
No131,
Your certainly no Tory or Lib Dem.
I have a grave dislike for both these unionist parties.
You obviously have identified yourself as a Liebour Education, Education, Education failure..
128

caithness,

the snowy north 03/12/2008 10:34:08
The SNP are wrong to rule out nuclear power. Most of western europe relies on it. Like most Scots I don't care what we use to generate power as long as we keep the lights (and the heat) on.
129

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 10:34:33
"Fancy Rufus not being first to comment"

Then again, the first poster - like Rufus - managed to post a full 72 minutes before post #2. Hmm ...
130

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/12/2008 10:35:12
Shirley-Anne Sommerville has added arms and legs to the Calman Report.

All that Calman has done is state the bleeding obvious - that there is a conflict over energy policy because it is split between Westminster and Holyrood. It does not take a genius to realise that this cannot continue.

In any case, by highlighting the energy issue Ms Sommerville is, quite frankly, dealing with an issue that is way down the list of priorities for Scottish voters. For me the real area to attack Calman is its pathetic response on full fiscal autonomy. I have posted before regards how I thought Calman would proceed (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Roadshow-to-canvass-Scots-views.4402675.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#3136793):

"#63 The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),19/08/2008 14:31:49

What is more likely is that Calman will either come up with a radical alternative or it will collpase due to NuLabour timidity."

It looks clear to me that timidity has won.

(to be continued)

131

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 10:36:41
#142
caithness,
the snowy north 03/12/2008 10:34:08

Well, you are close enough to Dounrae to glow in the dark yourself
132

Alan B,

03/12/2008 10:36:59
Calman has undermined any attempt to genuinely find a place for scotland within the union consistent with devolution.

When it was set up the lib dems told us it would deliver much more powers and would not remove anything. This is clearly not true now.

Wendy also made it clear that Calman was about giving scotland more power via devolution.

As such the key players that set up Calman have found that the commission has been nobled by Brown to push his own very centralist agenda.

How in any way can fiscal autonomy not be consistent with the union. That is so stupid that it is beyond believe. You may or may not agree with that as a way forward but in many ways fiscal autonomy could be a way of saving the union.

Assigned revenues is silly. It will mean that an english dominated parliament set the rates of tax that scotland will be assigned. Where is the logic in that. We could have the tories with next to no mps in scotland setting the amount of tax to be spend by labour in scotland. Daft. Councils have more power than that.

This proposal shows complete contempt for the scottish parliament and devolution.

Wendies view of fiscal federalism atleast had some merits. Assigned revenues is daft enough to come from Brown.

It is shambles like this that mean that indepedence is the only way forward for scotland. Too much within the union is vested interests and about the status quo rather than trying to reform and improve the countries that make up the uk.
133

Tom R,

03/12/2008 10:37:13
I can see that the Glenrothes victory has emboldened Westminster to try and resist further devolution for Scotland.

Fortunately in doing that-particularly trying to take back powers-Labour are overplaying their hand and will suffer for it.
134

Alan B,

03/12/2008 10:39:36
#Doh

"Calman is a missed opportunity."

Are you really surprised?

The lib dems have alot of good ideas but allow labour to walk over them.



135

yockel,

03/12/2008 10:40:48
#121 SM753 Your so right, devine right of Kings it is then.
136

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/12/2008 10:40:51
(#144 continued)

I have said before that there are one set of circumstances where I could see myself voting for independence.

If a simple yes-no vote goes ahead in 2010 (or some other date) and the No campaign indicated that if they win there would be no further dentralisation of power, then I would seriously consider voting yes in a referendum.

Calman could have created a radical alternative to independence - now it is little more than a damp squib.

Calman has now made it more likely that I will vote Yes in a future referendum.
137

Alan B,

03/12/2008 10:43:04
So what happens when Calman finally comes out with his conclusions.

Is there are referendum? If there is a referendum how will that be done. Will it be do you want the Calman non changes or more powers? Will it be a straight do you want the changes advocated by Calman. If the people say no will a new commission be set up to devolve real powers.

The problem with Calman is labour have ridden rough shode over democracy.
138

morris,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 10:45:15
139
I AM MISGUIDED !
Im not the one Puskas thinks is" Aff his Trolley" sunshine .

YOU ARE!

Puskas is not alone, that I know in certainty!
If you think I am misguided as long as its coming from you, I feel more than vindicated.
139

Alan B,

03/12/2008 10:46:23
Lets face it the real issue with giving scotland more powers round fiscal policy is it would undermine Browns career.

This is about the future of labour and brown and if scotland have to take second place so be it. If that means lower living standards for scotland and less decent jobs well you should joined labour and got your hand in the till.
140

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03/12/2008 10:49:06
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 10:49:27
150 Fed#

Let's hope all Libby/Dems feel the same. I have no doubt a few scraps will be thrown into the Calman report before the end to keep the Celtic fringe happy.

Calman's remit is quite clear and the ONLY suggestions that are taken up are those which are deemed to halt any call for independence.

Having full fiscal autonomy with the possible outcome that Scotland performs better than the UK and therebye increasing confidence in the idea of independence was never ever going to be an option...Westminster at work in Scotland i am afraid!
142

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 10:51:26
Make no mistake about it, Unionists will quite happily sacrifice their country for the union...they put the union first and Scotland second when it comes down to it.
143

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/12/2008 10:51:49
"Calman Tests SNP"

The Calman Commission is in fact a test of whether the increasingly irrelevant LibDems have a political future.

We may find at the next Holyrood election that they go bankrupt after failing to get their deposit back on a single contest.
144

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 10:55:08
No138 Yeah..

Your a beauty..

Next I will be saying? Whit. Are you thicker than mince.

Spelling: A problem. Never. Not one poster on this site or any others hasn't made a spelling error. Including yourself.. Maybe you more than most.

During the election process not everyone has the vote.

Do you. ? LOL

Oh! and I take it you understood my meaning but looked up the spell check.
I also have a wee habit of 2,3,4 full stops or more.................
Sorry about that eejit.


145

Alan B,

03/12/2008 10:55:46
Calman on tv last night did not make any sense.

He talked about fiscal autonomy undermining the cultural identity of the uk. That really is a bizzarre argument.
146

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 10:56:05
Calman Commission =

Kangaroo Court
147

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 10:58:29
The Lib Dems might do well if they came out in favour of independence, otherwise they are a waste of time.

They have lost to Salmond in their heartland in Scotland and Nicol's seat could well go so what is the point?

People aren't listening becuase they will never deliver!
148

morris,

Edinburgh 03/12/2008 10:58:58
155

It is indeed about Browns future!Well said!
Does he have one, is the question we need to ask!

There is a reduction in the Tory lead at the moment but normal service will resume soon, and the gap will reappear wider than ever.
If I were Brown I would go to the country ASAP because it will NOT get better.We are heading into a recession and we have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far.Wait till unemployment soars next year,and we will see Brown and Darling sweating and rightly so.
Their goose is cooked.
Its just a pity that some people even lack the benefit of hindsight, so fat chance for foresight!
149

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 11:00:17
Again some great submissions from the reliable posters.

Keep it up lads and lassies?

Unionism is a loser in debate going with the calibre shown on these sights. Spot the mistake "Yeah"...? LOL. Your a cowboy...............
150

Doh,

03/12/2008 11:04:30
#148 AlanB

Not surprised but still disappointed - Labour havent advanced their position and remain die-hard unionists.

Now the LibDems need to jetison the Calman Commission and pursue their own policies - after all - in theory at least - that is why people join and vote for political parties.

#160 Jakarta

You are so wrong. The LibDem policy of federation is a good idea - a good dare I say it - compromise.
The LibDems deserve more votes and have a tremendous opportunity at the next election - if they step up to the plate and put federation centre stage.

It just depends if you let opinion polls form your political opinions or you make your own mind up.

Remember what is right isnt always popular and what is popular isnt always right.


151

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 11:06:27
tu_campesino-ytu_obrero is that silly bint who posts in faux Spanish. She's had umpteen monikers and her posts are full of attempted humour. As funny as a sackful of drowning kittens.
152

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 11:08:11
148 Doh#

If the Calman comission won't even mention the Lib/Dems federal proposals then what chance of the UK government listening and Labour and the Tories embracing the idea...none!

The Lib Dems have a stark chioce..give up on their federal proposals which is a complete waste of time (although some merit to the idea) OR switch to become a pro-independence party.

More likely that they will bleat away and get nowhere!
153

Reiver,

Galashiels 03/12/2008 11:11:20
"The Nationalists claimed the report was a clear indication that the Calman Commission wanted to end the Scottish Government's veto. Shirley-Anne Sommerville, an SNP MSP and a member of the Scottish Parliament's climate change committee, said there would be a "real explosion" of anger if an end to the veto was recommended."

Someone should tell the natz party that there is in fact only an executive body in scotland, maybe if they learn to read and write they can eventually be educated on the differences between an executive and an actual Government ... who knows, maybe pigs will fly one day ... anyone out at Roslyn able to assist with this prognosis, yes, I do mean the Institution of the mind that is there ... not Dolly's creators.
154

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 11:12:08
She was Amparo de Glasgow once.
155

morris,

edinburgh 03/12/2008 11:13:44
160

I think you could be correct .

Unless the Lib Dems rediscover their Scottish credentials,(but I doubt that they can, never mind will),then I can see a wipe out of their party in Scotland before long,and it need not have happened of course.
They look very very foolish now.
Tavish
Time to show your mettle while you still can!

Its make or break time for the LIDS I suspect.
156

Observer. 1,

03/12/2008 11:16:08
172 whatever you call them they have planning control, and a veto over nuclear power. Calman wants to take that away ? As a wee wummin said ''Bring it on''.
157

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 11:17:33
Remembe it was the lib/dems who refused to go into co-alition with the SNP because of the proposed referendum!

What is the betting they are now thinking of backing it with their 'full fiscal autonomy' added to the ballot papers?

Hardly a credible stance for a party that was 100% opposed to a referendum!
158

Alan B,

03/12/2008 11:18:40
#Nevsky

I think the lib dems have a good message but have been poor at selling in Scotland. ie a strong scottish parliament within the union.

In many ways going into a coalition with labour for 2 terms did not allow them to challenge to become the opposition to labour in the scottish parliament and allowed the snp a freer run at that.

To sell it they need to be clear about what they want. They also need to make clear to labour and the country they will not consider a new coalition without labour deliverying a clear set of new powers for the scottish parliament.

They need to drop there anti snp line and be supportive of any proposals for a referendum as that is after all democracy and the lib dems were the party that used to believe in referendums more than the 2 other big uk parties.

The problem with calman was it was too wide ranging. What was really needed was specific commissions to look at specific areas with a general direction agreed.

Labours more focussed review of who runs elections in scotland after the aftermath of the botched elections was a better way. Unfortunately the writing was on the wall for Calman when laobur would not even implement these simple and obvious powers recommened here.

The lib dems need to have a clear policy round fiscal reform. Tavish Scott has been alot better since being elected but still was hedging his bets too much by wanting more of a basket of undefined taxes devolved. the lib dems really need firm proposals that can be supported or rejected by the public. For me fiscal autonomy would be the way the lib dems should go.

At the moment the lib dems are not giving people enough reason to want to vote for them. And in scotland unfortunately labour only have to turn up to get much of the vote no matter how bad they are and how bad their policies are.
159

Yeah1,

03/12/2008 11:20:02
#161

"During the election process not everyone has the vote."

Correct, children and prisoners don't, amongst others. Your suggestion that someone should be subjected to an IQ test before being allowed to vote is a slippery slope.

Perhaps your next suggestion will be that only 'true blood Scots' or those born in Scotland should be allowed to vote, and then maybe only SNP members...

"Oh! and I take it you understood my meaning but looked up the spell check."

No, I know how to spell eligible so I saw instantly that you had spelt it wrong. I can assure you I have better things to do than going through all your posts and spell checking them to find errors.
160

Alan B,

03/12/2008 11:24:18
#Nevsky

"Remembe it was the lib/dems who refused to go into co-alition with the SNP because of the proposed referendum!"

The lib dems in scotland were badly let down by Campbell the uk leader. Nicol Stephen was always a bit of a damp fish without backbone to really set to clear path for the lib dems.

I was not a fan of Tavish Scott before he was elected as he came across in the same mold. However he has been better since he is leader coming up with some genuine policies and direction. I agree this will be a bid test for him and time will tell whether he is up to it.

The lib dems need to lose their anti snp view and embrace democracy and referendums.

However the snp on the other hand need to be more accomodating to the lib dems. Party politics is too tribal.
161

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 11:26:58
19 AlanB#

The Lib/Dems can choose to support full fiscal autonomy and it might get them a few votes but it will never be delivered, how can they deliver it?

There is only one way and that is to perform a u-turn on the referendum and include their proposals on the ballot paper, that is their only chance.

The SNP could either refuse and force the Lib/Dems into a very tight corner or agree knowing full well that at the least 'full fiscal autonomy' would in all probablility be the one that was voted for.

However, if they refuse the Lib/Dems and they then know that the choice is between the union with no more fiscal powers or independenece, what then?
162

brownlie,

03/12/2008 11:27:11
173

Are you still banned under your Alfred E Neuman moniker?
163

Alan B,

03/12/2008 11:30:09
#Reiver

Your post comes across as someone who resents the scottish parliament and devolution.

Calman was set up by unionist parties in response to the snp winning the last scottish election. It promised many more powers for the scottish parliament. We were also assured that it would not remove powers from the scottish parliament after Browns outburst that it could.

What we have seen so far is Calman not deliverying on what we were told. It has been reduced by Brown as he tried to do with his outburst about a review and not a commission. With Wendy gone labour have reverted to anti devolution and confirmed that by voting in Ian Grey.

Calman is now talking about removing powers from the scottish parliament given to scotland via a referendum. The unionist parties have not said that these powers to be removed will be via a referendum. There is at the heart a genuine democratic issue.

Unfortunately scotland tends to let itself be walked over in political situations.
164

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 11:31:32
181 AlanB#

Well i at least remember what Ross Finnie was like as a minister, a complete and utter waste of time. The Lib/Dems in Scotland do not have the talent to manage and if they are losing their deposit and their heartlands just why should the SNP hold out an olive branch to them?

I only support the Lib/Dems full fiscal autonomy because i see it as a fundamental transitional move towards independence. As for the rest of their policies i couldn't care less and neither could anyone else.

165

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 11:33:39
Updated list for tu_campesino-ytu_obrero

1 Pilar Lopez, Langholm, Escocia
2 Amparo de Glasgow (possibly pro SNP)
3 Lucia y el sexo

In other words - a troll.
166

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 11:42:05
I suspect Charles Linskaill.
167

Alan B,

03/12/2008 11:44:05
#Nevsky

I agree they have to uturn on the referendum issue. I said that above. It loses them credibility in democratic terms.

For the lib dems they need a clear policy and full fiscal autonomy would deliver that. They may even attract nats that are more gradualist.

While i obviously support independence a lib dem party campaigning on a clear set of new/more powers for the scottish parliament would give people a clear reason for voting for them.

If i was a lib dem i would have wanted the party to try to come to a deal with the snp on support of fiscal autonomy.

With 70-80% of the scottish public apparently supporting more powers in the parliament they could have tried to get the snp to support that a delay any independence referendum until delivered.

It would make sense for both parties to ensure significant powers are transferred to the scottish parliament.

I have reservations about a 3 question referendum being practical.


168

Nikostratos,,

03/12/2008 11:44:57
#187

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7762005.stm

Officers 'decided to arrest MP'

Sir Paul Stephenson said police had to act without 'fear or favour'

Police officers made the decision to arrest Tory MP Damian Green, not ministers, the acting head of the Metropolitan Police has said.

Sir Paul Stephenson said he "would strongly refute" any suggestion they came under any "improper influence".


"Let me deal finally with the suggestion that any political or ministerial influence on this or any other police operation under my command.

"I would strongly refute that I or any senior officer under my command have, or would allow, any improper influence of our operational judgement and actions for political purposes. That is not what we do".
169

brownlie,

03/12/2008 11:49:26
187 Peter

A commission set up, ostensibly to map out the future of Scotland costs £500,000 which is slightly more than the design for the London Olympics Logo thus costing around £1 million for something that will not benefit Scotland in the slightest.
170

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 11:51:52
192 brownlie#

£500,000 to prevent the Scottish peopple getting any more power is a very very cheap investment by Westminster.

All they had to do was to find the right man, step in (Lord) Calman.
171

brownlie,

03/12/2008 11:52:10
191 Nikos

He is being economical with the truth. No police officer would arrest a Member of Parliament without political authority.
172

Yeah1,

03/12/2008 11:53:08
#192

"the design for the London Olympics Logo thus costing around £1 million for something that will not benefit Scotland in the slightest."

No doubt the design for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games logo has/will cost a similar amount, for something that will 'not benefit England in the slightest'.

It runs both ways. The London Olympics will not benefit Northern England either, just as the Glasgow Commonwealth Games will not benefit most of Scotland outside its host city.
173

Alan B,

03/12/2008 11:53:55
#Nevsky

I agree. Fiscal autonomy is vitally important to Scotland. It is the single most important power that scotland needs devolved. In many ways i think it would be better to have fiscal autonomy before having a indpendence referendum for a variety of reasons.

"why should the SNP hold out an olive branch to them"
I do not think it does the snp any good to be isolated in the scottish parliament and in policy arguments when others agree with much the snp are doing. We need less tribalism and more thought about what is good for the country.

If the snp and the lib dems agree that 70% of powers should be devolved to the scottish parliament including fiscal autonomy it makes sense to achieve that. It will be easier for the snp to win the argument say about fiscal autonomy if other parties like the lib dems are also arguing for it. It also put pressure on other unionist parties to consider their position. Say if the lib dems where to say that was vitally important to them labour would have to consider the consequences for a future coalition.

I like looking at independence from where powers should reside type of approach. And say if 8 out of 20 powers have been devolved and if the snp and lib dems can agree on another 8 powers and achieve that then any independence referendum is only really arguing about the 4 left.

174

Miss H,

03/12/2008 11:54:41
What is interesting about Calman is that the report clearly identifies the need for fiscal autonomy and then backs out of supporting it.

“With no substantive tax raising power, the Scottish Parliament is funded by a block grant, needed to address a near total vertical fiscal imbalance. Voters are not exposed to tax and spending decisions at the margin, meaning that a degree of political accountability for the taxation which supports spending decisions is missing. The disconnection between revenues and economic performance also means that the incentives to develop growth are secondary rather than immediate. The current arrangements also mean that the Scottish Parliament lacks a degree of autonomy - its scope to influence the size of its budget is limited whilst it is not able to use fiscal measures to influence behaviours.”

I suspect that there have been some pretty heated debates behind the scene and the inclusion of the above passage is indicative that some of the members may have wanted to go a lot further than they have.

The nuclear thing is a total red herring. No new nuclear power stations would have been sited in Scotland anyway as they are too far away from the centres of population which require to be served in the south of England.
175

Miss H,

03/12/2008 11:58:19
195 But no money is being diverted from England to pay for the Commonwealth Games. So it's no quite the same thing is it?

And I think we can all guess what the reaction would be if the Scottish Government said to Westminster actually we appear to be over-running our costs for the Commonwealth Games, do you think you could find a bit of extra dosh for us.
176

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 12:01:11
200 Miss#

Imagine the reaction of unionists on these boards...it would be 'we cannae dae it' heaven for them.

When it happens in London of course..not a peep!
177

Nikostratos,,

03/12/2008 12:06:21
#194 brown owl

And you are being economical with the common sense..What does our Gordy gain out of all this Hullabaloo..not a lot more likely if he could of he would of stopped it.
178

brownlie,

03/12/2008 12:10:33
195 yeah1

I hope you're not suggesting that Calman's unionist talking shop was not a waste of around £500,000.

With full fiscal autonomy the whole of Scotland would benefit from the Commonwealth Games.
179

brownlie,

03/12/2008 12:11:52
203 janes hore

A change of moniker does not make you any more intelligent, does it?
180

Miss H,

03/12/2008 12:19:25
202 I certainly do not question the fact that the police are independent in operational matters and so they should be. I don't know enough about what happened to make a judgement about whether they exceeded their authority. But for me the issue is how much it stretches credulity to believe that government ministers were not informed. How stupid do they think we are?

The decision to pretend he knew nothing about it is typical of Brown. He could easily have said yes I was informed but it is a matter for the police. Choosing to deny all knowledge instead is just further evidence of the kind of man he is.
181

Miss H,

03/12/2008 12:23:17
203 We are lucky enough to have a council tax freeze in Scotland.
182

brownlie,

03/12/2008 12:23:54
208 The Spook

Got to go just now, catch you on your blog later!
183

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:24:39
#Nikostratos

"What does our Gordy gain out of all this Hullabaloo"

Alot. Without this hullabaloo the leaks would have been very embarrassing for the labour government and home office. We would have been back the labour government and the home office not being fit for purpose.

With this we now have the government firing warning shots to anyone that could leak embarrassing info on the government that they will be arrested and will be in deep doo doo. They have also tried to turn the leak into a story of tory sleaze with the arrest. ie tories breaking the law.

What we have just seen should tell every decent citizen to reject this evil labour party until it can reform and find its decency again. Undermining democracy with a police state is just not acceptable. Abit like all the other abuses of power we have seen during labour yrs:

1)using anti terror laws to arrest labour party members talking about during a conference. They guy was a pensioner.
2)allowing anti terror laws to be used for not terrorist purposes after telling us they needed these extreme powers for serious issues. Meaning even councils using them to track parents sending kids to certain schools.
3)using anti terror laws against iceland before backing down.
4)the whole 90 days detention without trial
5)shoot to kill policies
6)lying to parliament over iraq.
7)openly most corrupt party in memory with dodgy and illegal donations. Even with the pm being investigated by police.
8)The shambles of hutton were he practically said blair lied and then recommended no action.
9)abusing parliament by placing a labour speaker of the house in place despite the historic precedent of labour then tory then labour etc. The tories had 2 terms of a labour speaker. Labour then place a corrupt speaker who they can control.
10)BBC - again precedent was one tory supporter and one labour support in the 2 top jobs. Labour then allocated both top jobs to labour supporters turning the BBC into a labour propoga
184

Nikostratos,,

03/12/2008 12:24:52
#200

yes but Westminster or in snp patter westmonster given the snp propensity to wastefulness such as a tax freeze for the very very wealthy would ask why?


#209

Do you actually know for sure Gordon knew all about it
or is this more evidence of the nationalist unionist conspiracy psychosis.
185

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:25:08
..
10)BBC - again precedent was one tory supporter and one labour support in the 2 top jobs. Labour then allocated both top jobs to labour supporters turning the BBC into a labour propoganda machine by taking control of the tv media.

Labour are bordering on a facist government I never thought we would ever see in the uk.
186

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:32:19
#209 Miss H

The point is labour have politicised the police in a way we have never seen before. Just think Ian Blair who was Tony's placeman. Just think about the behaviour of Ian Blair and how that could possibly be acceptable for any government.

With regard to this issue directly there are a few points:
1)Jackie Smith refused to condemn the action taken and here interview suggested complicity and obfusion.
2)The home sectretary should be aware of arresting politicians and should know exactly what info that is based on.
3)You simply did not need what 7 officers to invade a politicians house.
4)everything leaked was trivial and in no way breached national security. Political leaks are an acceptable and encourage part of uk democracy. It is different if we are talking about terrorism.
5)other labour cabinet ministers are reported furious with Smith and that should tell us alot.
6)parliamentary privledge was abused by Michael Martin labour placeman as speaker of the house which itself abused parliamentary procedure
187

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:37:05
#213 Nikostratos

If Brown did not know of this he is not in control of his own government as the home sectretary knew alot of what was going on and so did Michael Martin labours placeman who allow the abuse of parliamentary priviledge.

It is noticable that Mandelson is just back and all those sort of things have started happening. There is something cancerous in this labour government which i am surprised you cannot see.
188

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/12/2008 12:41:15
#196 Alan B

"If i was a lib dem i would have wanted the party to try to come to a deal with the snp on support of fiscal autonomy."

I think that makes sense. The best way to do that would be to have full fiscal autonomy as an option on a multi-option referendum ballot. If that does not happen the other option is to agree to back full fiscal autonomy if there were a no vote in the referendum.

Unfortunately though I don't think either scenario is likely. It is in the SNP's interests to have the referendum debate polarised. Any attempt to dilute their support by having full fiscal autonomy as an option during or after a referendum would be met with resistance.

The only way I can see the Lib Dems and the SNP coming to an agreement on fiscal autonomy is after not before a referendum ie if the Nats lose the vote.
189

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:41:38
#Salem

Your post is obviously more about trying to wind others up that any rational point of view.

" For example they have shown they are incapable of controlling anti-social behavior, widespread drug abuse and inner city crime."

And westminster did a much better job in England. No.

Did westmisnter run scotland better via direct rule. No


"Advocating Holyrood control over taxation indeed. If Scotland had to depend on revenues from taxing it’s own people it would sink into a deeper hole than it is already in."

The hole the uk is in was caused by dreadful economic management from westminster via Brown.

So you must try harder if you want to be take seriously.
190

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:41:44
#Salem

Your post is obviously more about trying to wind others up that any rational point of view.

" For example they have shown they are incapable of controlling anti-social behavior, widespread drug abuse and inner city crime."

And westminster did a much better job in England. No.

Did westmisnter run scotland better via direct rule. No


"Advocating Holyrood control over taxation indeed. If Scotland had to depend on revenues from taxing it’s own people it would sink into a deeper hole than it is already in."

The hole the uk is in was caused by dreadful economic management from westminster via Brown.

So you must try harder if you want to be taken seriously.
191

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/12/2008 12:44:56
"The nuclear thing is a total red herring."

You need to tell that to Ms Sommerville the SNP MSP who raised the issue!!

I actually agree with you - it is full fiscal autonomy - or lack of - that is the key issue.

Some wags here have described the commission as being the Calman Omission - they are not far wrong.
192

Calum Crubag,

03/12/2008 12:51:07
Nuke power is too expensive and dangerous. Keep it out of Scotland. I thoought the LibDems were anti-nuke too? No surprise that Labour join the Tories in wanting the nuke option.

I can mind many Labour MPs marching against Torness and other such establisments.
193

Calum Crubag,

BBC Alba on Freeview! 03/12/2008 12:53:35
As to broadcasting, Scots should have control over it. As in the disgraceful case of BBC Alba - paid for by licence payers but only available on Sky.

Here's the petition for getting BBC Alba on Freeview so we can all see it.
http://epetitions.scottish.parliament.uk/view_petition.asp?PetitionID=289
194

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:56:55
#220 The Federalist

"The best way to do that would be to have full fiscal autonomy as an option on a multi-option referendum ballot."

I have doubts about a multi-option referendum.

The other problem for the lib dems and snp coming to an understanding is they do not have enough seat between them to bring forward legislation.

I think it would make sense for the snp to back and agree with the lib dems to have a referendum on more powers for the scottish paliament with fiscal autonomy at its heart. It may not be all the snp want but as you have posted before going for an all or nothing could produce nothing and could put the momentum of more powers for the scottish parliament into reverse. (Swinney, Salmonds man to replace him first time round was pushing the fiscal autonomy line. But he and the issue were abit grey for mass appeal.)

It would allow future discussions over full independence but would remove much of the confusion between more powers and independence.

Even Henry McLeish was arguing for scotland to be semi autonomous.

As such it makes sense for the snp to try to build a wider consensous for more powers.

There are 2 clear aspects of independence the emotional side and the powers within the competence of scottish parliament and thus democractically accountable to the scottish people. It is the 2nd that is in practical terms the most important as that determines how we are governed and the democratic accountability of decisions.

The snp have already sidelined the currency and head of state as issues.

Any future argument about independence is going to be round fear over deficits, being allowed into the eu, setting up defence capabilities.

If the snp were to agree to an interium solution that would mean scotland would move to full fiscal autonomy, devolution of the social security system and over things like policing and other law and order issues aswell as transport and energy, broadcasting, running scottish elections, civil
195

Alan B,

03/12/2008 12:57:26
...civil service etc then Scotland would be in a much better state.

Any future debate round independence would be about defence, eu membership, foreign policy, currency and sovereignty.
196

English flag,

03/12/2008 13:03:33
208.spook: that's rich,coming from the creator of Prof Bonnaccord (deleted for blatant trolling),Big Banana Feet and countless other trolling monikers.

You are a pest on here and the sooner you and your many moniker's go to America, the better (although that may only mean that your moniker's start posting at funny times LMAO)
197

English flag,

03/12/2008 13:06:57
208.spook: hows Prof Bonnaccord doing? Has he recovered from his recent deletion for blatant trolling,or has he gone to the great forum in the sky along with Big Banana Feet and countless other of your creations
198

vimto,

03/12/2008 13:10:01
208.spook: hows Prof Bonnaccord doing? Has he recovered from his recent deletion for blatant trolling,or has he gone to the great forum in the sky along with Big Banana Feet and countless other of your creations
199

English flag,

03/12/2008 13:14:30
232.that spook and all his monikers are a menace
200

Yeah1,

03/12/2008 13:15:06
#229

"As in the disgraceful case of BBC Alba - paid for by licence payers but only available on Sky. Here's the petition for getting BBC Alba on Freeview so we can all see it."

There are far more important things to petition about than getting a minority language channel onto freeview.

I doubt very much the majority of Scots really care whether BBC Alba is on freeview or not, considering only 1.1% of Scots can actually understand the language used on it.

How about a petition to get the Scottish football team's matches shown on terrestrial tv? A far more worthwhile cause.
201

go boil ur heid,

03/12/2008 13:20:18
every report paid by the opposition has always gave recommendation that they want to hear
202

,

03/12/2008 13:25:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
203

Alan B,

03/12/2008 13:26:54
#Salem

The problem with your argument is to say scotland is failing but then say powers of decisions should remain with westminster who does not have a good record in running things themselves and the scotland we see now is a result of westminter rule.

The problem with westminster politically for scotland is it is a 2 horse race between a unelectable tory party in scotland due to their performance in power and a labour party who are clueless. As a result scotland has drifted more and more to the clueless party.

In order for scotland to deal with its problems we need powers within the scottish parliament to deal with them.

Economic powers are still not devolved and therefore it is no surprise that scotland cannot deal with its economic decline as a result of tory and labour rule from westminster. In political terms it scotland is not important enough to address our economic issues.

People are sheep to some extent in scotland but that is a direct consequence of westminster rule and the drift to supporting anyone with a rosette in an election.

The snp are part of the solution as they would allow scotland to take the powers that matter to the scottish parliament and allow scotland to grow politically.

We can see the next election vote labour or let the tories in. The whole thing will be based on what england vote and not round scottish issues. So no surprise scottish issues are not dealt with.

You mentioned drugs as an issue and say more powers should not be devolved until the scottish parliament can deal with these issues but drugs is not a devolved power and neither is other law and order issues. All part of the mess that was devolution.
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03/12/2008 13:27:22
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Alan B,

03/12/2008 13:28:26
#go boil ur heid

Or when they get a report they do not like they just ignore its findings.

eg the report into devolving the running of elections to the sp to scotland after westminsters last shambles.
206

English flag,

03/12/2008 13:30:11
237.spook: as far as i can see,you're the one whose admitting to having lots of monikers and being a sad troll,you are a menace and the sooner you go to america the better
207

English flag,

03/12/2008 13:32:44
237.spook: you are a menace,you are the one with all the moniker's
208

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 13:33:07
234 Yeah#

Regardless of how many people actually speak Gaelic the programmes should be made available.

Your slightly sneering attiture is totally commensurate with a unionist.

Gaelic predates English and is a heritage that Scotland should be proud of and should support; you are still living in the 1930s i think!

There is great support for Gaelic in the cities now with schools being over-subscribed and even if YOU don't understand or appreciate a part of Scottish culture many people do!
209

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 13:37:23
Funny to see the outhpiece queenie stating that the government (Gordon) will tighten regulations on the banking sector.

Wasn't it not the very same man who legislated to ease the regulations in the first place?
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Alan B,

03/12/2008 13:38:39
#Yeah1

"How about a petition to get the Scottish football team's matches shown on terrestrial tv?"

Only events to be judged as national importance like wimbleton are guaranteeed on terrestrial tv.

As scotland has no powers over devolution we would have to effectively ask england as westminster is by sheer demographics english dominated. Brown who is running around telling everyone he is british for his electability will not do anything to promote anything that can either be conceived as scottish or to promote scottishness.

Brown may consider it if the scottish team was changed to the north british team.

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Alan B,

03/12/2008 13:39:45
sorry meant to say

As scotland has no powers over broadcasting..
212

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 03/12/2008 13:48:27
#246

The reason Scottish football matches are not shown on domestic TV is the SFA accepted the money from SKY as they couldn't afford not to. The FA have now sold some England games to SETANTA but they could afford to turn down the Sky package. The England rugby games are on sky as the RFU could not affford to turn down the money. Scotland rugby games are on BBC as Sky didn't want them. None of these national team sports are protected. It is about money not politics.
213

Doh,

03/12/2008 13:48:33
#185 Nevesky

Actually Ross Finnie was one the ablest and thoughtful ministers of the previous 8 years.

As for ludicrious predictions of the next election - honestly have you learned nothing from the Glenrothes by-election. Just for your information - the LibDems won the Dunfermline by-election, won the corresponding MSP seat and I beleive will hold the seat at the next Westminster election.

Although I think federation is important - it is not a priority for the electorate - that is democracy. As I said earlier just because it is right doesnt mean it is popular and just because it is popular doesnt mean it is right.

As for Tavish, I didnt vote for him, but he does show signs of maturing, plus I think he has been shocked by teh way Labour has steam-rolled the HBOS merger.
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Nikostratos,,

03/12/2008 13:55:29
#251

Well the first things is to realise you dont get peoples to agree with you by insulting them.
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Yeah1,

03/12/2008 14:02:55
#244

"Regardless of how many people actually speak Gaelic the programmes should be made available."

I didn't say the channel shouldn't be made available, I said there are far more important things to petition about than it.

I guarantee if the Scottish population were asked whether they would prefer to have a gaelic tv channel that most of them can't understand, or Scottish football matches available on terrestrial tv, the overwhelming majority would choose the latter.
216

tyzer,

in ma jobby filled pants 03/12/2008 14:03:12
232! yeah! Thats right sis! you an me will take on these silly nats - how dare they think they can run a country better than Labour?

btw, can I borrow some of your incontinence pads? Please bring them round after you've visited the solicitors and psychiatrist on Norton Road, yeah? I've run out of pants again! :(
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tyzer,

03/12/2008 14:04:12
ken
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03/12/2008 14:15:23
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 14:18:35
254 Yeah1#

But it's not a question of either Gaelic tv or football is it?

People if asked would also support free beer if the country got rid of Scottish Tories i am fairly sure!
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brownlie,

03/12/2008 14:19:36
235 Salem

Sorry, but your posts lose all credibility when you post fatuous and obviously untrue remarks like "All the world knows England is a land of hooligans".
221

brownlie,

03/12/2008 14:29:48
254 Yeah 1

If the vast majority you are talking about had any say in the matter most of the drivel on BBC Scotland, and STV, would vanish without trace. Personally I would rather hear Gaelic music than have Bill Oddie twittering on about birds.
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Yeah1,

03/12/2008 14:30:26
#256

"But it's not a question of either Gaelic tv or football is it?"

I was pointing out that there are more important things to petition about than a gaelic tv channel and used Scottish football matches as an example.

If you want to celebrate Scotland's heritage and culture, surely petitioning to get Scotland's football matches shown on terrestrial tv is a far more worthwhile way to do this?

Whilst gaelic is of course a part of Scotland's heritage and culture, the Scottish football team is, I would suggest, a far more relevant and modern part of Scottish national identity and culture.

Millions of Scots could share in the enjoyment and sense of national pride that watching Scottish football on terrestrial tv would bring, whereas sadly, only a tiny minority of Scots would watch BBC Alba even if it were made available on freeview.
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03/12/2008 14:32:36
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steve52,

Kinfauns 03/12/2008 14:39:03
Of course there should be Gaelic TV. Other minority races have there own TV so why not Gaelic?

I remeber a few years back a senior civil servant asking me to put a notice on a wall. This notice was written in several languages. The civil servant said it was nothing more that PC gone mad as few if any minority persons ever would see it. I mentioned that the notice had no Gaelic on it so the civil servant refused to have it put up until this was corrected by Head Quarters....All said notices were scrapped and new ones made.

Anyhow. Calman commission. What a waste of tax payers money pandering to the ego's of certain politicians. He, Calman, stated on TV last night he wanted the people of Scotland to become involved, submit material etc. Yet in the next breath he rules out any discussion on independance. So he cuts off a large chunk of the Scottish public at a stroke.

Now if anyone thinks Broon & Co. will let Calman do anything that assists Scotland and its people or even suggests at independance they are living on another planet.

Calman will do as he is telt by Labour.
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Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 03/12/2008 14:44:44
sm753 – #75 et seq.

Sorry I’ve been gone for a few days and could’t post this for you sooner.

Ref: http://tinyurl.com/5lf55k (I have converted al URLs to tinyurls in this post to save space).

Your post #38 gave two long URLs which I have converted to tinyurls to save space. They are (1) http://tinyurl.com/5lp9ud, Local Govermment Act 1972; and (2) http://tinyurl.com/5tyzku (Interpretation 1978).

My post #60 stated that (1) contains no reference whatsoever to “Scotland” or “Scottish”. [It did link to http://tinyurl.com/5ruq5a, which also contains no reference whatsoever to “Scotland” or “Scottish”.] The post also stated that (2) mentions Scotland a number of times, but has nothing whatsoever in relation to terrestrial or sea boundaries or borders.

I then asked if you would like to try again with real references. You responded at #69 with your typical petulant and obfuscatory reaction to posters who ask reasonable questions.

My post #70 merely asked a reasonable question. I repeated this post at #6 on http://tinyurl.com/59dssk in case you had not seen the original.

Your response at Post #10 was again insulting. You do not hesitate to demand proof of statements posters make and which you disagree with. Can’t take some of your own medicine, eh?

Unfortunately I don’t have a stable of instant backup researchers at Westminster or the John Smith House, so I’ll leave it at this: if you expect to have any credibility, please provide:

(a) Specific URL references for the 1973 Local Government Act and the 1933 Local Government Act

(c) Proof that the "administrative county of Northumberland" does not really mean the County of Northumberland plus the “non-county area of - wait for it - Berwick-on-Tweed” that the county administers.

(d) Please provide proof and the effective date that the “the non-county borough of Berwick-on-Tweed” became part of England.
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Miss H,

03/12/2008 14:51:36
250 - Erm, if you are talking about learning lessons from Glenrothes - what happened to the Lib Dems?

Lost their deposit didn't they?
227

Doomsday,

03/12/2008 14:52:40
#262 Peter: your discombobulated rants could just as easily be directed at institutions and characters within the EU.

What most of us can't grasp is why you Nats tolerate the EU yet have such a downer on the UK (closer and surely more user friendly!)
228

Doomsday,

03/12/2008 14:53:05
#262 Peter: your discombobulated rants could just as easily be directed at institutions and characters within the EU.

What most of us can't grasp is why you Nats tolerate the EU yet have such a downer on the UK (closer and surely more user friendly!)
229

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/12/2008 14:59:51
#256

"But it's not a question of either Gaelic tv or football is it?"

You could have both, Scottish Football with Gaelic commentary.

It might do a lot to encourage young people to learn Gaelic so they could understand the commentary.
230

brownlie,

03/12/2008 15:03:44
255 Moffat's M M

It's never too late - there's bound to be a Conversational Gaelic Class in your area - go for it - it's great fun!
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brianmca3,

auld reekie 03/12/2008 15:09:56
remember when liebour were courting greenham commen protesters and cnd etc etc
now just because the snp won holyrood ,they are now acting like thatchers bootboys
if nuke power is so safe ,site one out side wwestminster,bury the waste under buck house
hmmm see the oinonists and royalists squirming
if it aint good enough to have in nice spots in england,then dont spoil our beauty spots with it
we have now seen we are no longer a democracy with brown
sure we have freedom but at what cost
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Alan B,

03/12/2008 15:11:26
#Salem

I am not so much missing your point more disagreeing with it.
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Alan B,

03/12/2008 15:16:52
#All Politicians are the same

I am aware of why different different broadcasters broadcast different sporting activities.

I do not think you understood or read the posts that i would replying to as such you have missed the point.

Personally I do not care if scotland games are on terrestrial tv as i am happy for the sfa to maximise the money they can get from games. But then that is probably as i would go to the game.

I would be more interested in getting all away games on terrestrial tv.
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Boab1,

03/12/2008 15:17:56
If this was changed before the next Holyrood election it would be electoral gold dust for the SNP.

The suggested changes to taxes would do nothing but allow the ruling Westminster govt. to deflect some of the blame onto the ruling party in Edinburgh if things start going wrong. Just like they'd love to be doing right now with the economic crisis. Unfortunately for them most of the people of Scotland know there's absolutely nothing the SNP can do as they have no control of economic levers. These little changes will make it Appear the Scottish govt has more control without giving them a single ounce more.
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03/12/2008 15:25:18
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03/12/2008 15:25:43
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Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 03/12/2008 15:27:42
The Calman Commission is a Unionist joke, as for Nuclear Power i'm open minded, however Scotland doesn't want it and the Scottish Parliament should decide.
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03/12/2008 15:30:11
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03/12/2008 15:30:30
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

03/12/2008 15:34:00
"262 Peter,Same old, same old Unionist claptrap! 03/12/2008 14:39:12
Fed - we could be part of the EU - it is a 'Federal' state in being"

There are two forms of federalism - a centalising one as epitomised by the EU and a decentralised one like Germany, Austria, Argentina or Brazil.

I am a supporter of the second form - swapping a centralised UK state for a centralised EU state would not be acceptable.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 15:41:45
276 Traquir#

I agree with both you and Alan on a lot of the points you raise apart from 1. The Lib/Dems are fundamental unionists.

Ming Campbell and Jim Wallace detest the SNP and any mention of the word independence; they are and remain unionists regardless of their softly softly approach and are way too astute to court anything that would lead to independence, they are walking a tightrope but one that has not yet been put to the test.

The time will come of course when their unionism is put on the line and that is exactly what i hope the SNP do.

The Lib/Dems are in no position to ask for anything and are on the verge of electoral wipeout in Scotland. The SNP hold the cards in the parliament and only the SNP who can offer any hope to them regarding their policy of fiscal autonomy.

Let the SNP make concessions to the Lib/Dems if they campaign for a YES in a referendum, otherwise i would forget it; they are the party after all who walked away from the Scots having a referendum and now they will come out in favour of it!

I understand the 'fiscal autonomy' route and have sympathy with it but independence won't come before 2014 anyway i believe (but you never know with Scotland) so what do the SNP have to lose other than putting the Lib/Dems in a corner and seeing how strong their unionism is?
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Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:50:56
oh dear!
243

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:51:12
oh dear!
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Chris42,

03/12/2008 15:51:24
Alan B
Agree with all you say, full fiscal autonomy is essential if Scotland's economy is to improve. What do you make of the fact the Tories have not made a submission to Calman? I've always been sceptical of the rumours they're secretly planning to give SP fiscal autonomy after next general election but it does seem odd.
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Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:51:35
oh dear!
246

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:51:55
oh dear!
247

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:52:08
oh dear!
248

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:52:21
oh dear!
249

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:52:33
oh dear!
250

Chris42,

03/12/2008 15:52:41
....does seem odd they're not showing their hand.
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Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:52:42
oh dear!
252

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:03
oh dear!
253

Alan Reid,

North Jutland 03/12/2008 15:53:04
When are the Scottish people going to wake and realise that Westminster are NEVER going to give up Scotland till it's been bled dry.
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Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:14
oh dear!
255

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:23
oh dear!
256

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:32
oh dear!
257

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:42
oh dear!
258

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:53:51
oh dear!
259

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:54:01
oh dear!
260

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:54:10
oh dear!
261

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:54:34
oh dear!
262

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:54:45
oh dear!
263

Annabel Lecturer,

03/12/2008 15:55:18
oh dear!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 16:27:32
280 Chris#

Here is your answer from the Tories, wholehearted support for the union, even the Labour 'tampered with' union:

This interim report is testament to the robust analysis and innovative approach adopted by the Calman Commission, grounded firmly on an extensive evidence based approach. As was always intended, that has enabled the Commission to reach this important first staging post and it establishes the Commission, already validated by the Scottish Parliament, as the most informed contributor to the devolution debate since the passing of the Scotland Act.
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Elephant,

Linlithgow 03/12/2008 16:34:49
Been out for a while...
#113
Apologist, for what? Actually thinking Nuclear is a viable energy resource. I refer you again to the Finnish example. Done well this fuel is supreme in its cost & risk profile. Or do you prefer supertankers running aground... or perhaps a wind farm (the size of Mull). And for your info I am a Geographer, not a Unionist, which has its own special irony...

#115
I live on the Forth and can see / smell Rosyth sub. dock depending on the weather. The Falkirk wheel is magnificent but quite unsuitable for submarines.
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03/12/2008 16:40:34
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Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 16:42:21
The choice bits that made me laugh:

'robust analysis' lol

'innovative approach' indeed!

'important first staging post' lol

'establishes the Commission' as a laughing stock true

'already validated by the Scottish Parliament' mmm..not by the Lib/Dems now..they are fuming!

'most informed contributor to the devolution debate' oh lol Annabel..she does have a sense of humour..or maybe just a liar, not sure which?

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03/12/2008 16:50:33
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Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 03/12/2008 16:52:40
#269 Peter -

Thanks for the support in rebutting sm753's claim that Berwick is a part of England. Here's some more background info that might interest you.

Scotland’s terrestrial border with England was fixed in the year 1237 by the Treaty of York, and even after the 1707 union it remained the boundary between two distinct and independent legal systems. It runs from the Solway Firth in the west to the mouth of the River Tweed in the east. It has never been altered in almost eight centuries. The UK government has made cynical attempts to redefine the last few miles of its eastern part, which is the centre of the River Tweed. The UK government arbitrarily redirected the constitutional border: at 55°45’43.55N–02°05’08.42’W the border line was redirected toward the north and subsequently east to the coast at 55°48'42"N–02°01'54"W near Lamberton.

The land enclosed by the UK government’s action is an unwarranted extension of an administrative border which resulted from an anomaly of history. Berwick on Tweed was occupied by an English army in 1482 through pure military aggression of no constitutional importance. Its present peculiar status dates from the 1502 Treaty of Perpetual Peace between James IV of Scotland and Henry VII of England, with Papal involvement. Since James was desperately anxious to marry Princess Margaret Tudor, for dynastic reasons, he bowed to the reality and agreed that Berwick would stay under English administration while remaining a part of Scotland, and this was one of the terms of the agreement, written into the treaty.

That status, English administration, was never altered during the intervening centuries. Berwick has never at any time been transferred to England. Queen Victoria underlined this fact when she opened the Royal Border Bridge over the Tweed in the middle of Berwick in August 1850. Putting up border signs at Lamberton is merely perpetuating this ingrained error. It no longer has any strategic importance, and it is hi
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03/12/2008 16:53:13
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Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 03/12/2008 16:57:17
#263 to sm753:

"Unfortunately I don’t have a stable of instant backup researchers at Westminster or the John Smith House, so I’ll leave it at this: if you expect to have any credibility, please provide:

(a) Specific URL references for the 1973 Local Government Act and the 1933 Local Government Act

(c) Proof that the "administrative county of Northumberland" does not really mean the County of Northumberland plus the “non-county area of - wait for it - Berwick-on-Tweed” that the county administers.

(d) Please provide proof and the effective date that the “the non-county borough of Berwick-on-Tweed” became part of England."

Exactly - I couldn't have put it better myself. Unless some unionist can give specific details of when, and by virtue of what constitutional right, the Berwick enclave became part of England, then all other arguments about the border are superfluous. All this surreptitious fiddling with a border that had stood for almost eight centuries only started after the discovery of oil in the North Sea.

The treaty that permitted English administration of the Berwick enclave specifically stated that it would remain part of Scotland (it was "of" England but not "in" England), and that remains the de jure situation. Since the conditions that led to that agreement have long since ceased to apply, it is time that the English administration was removed from this part of Scotland. As distinct from the administration, the application of English law to Berwick - at a fairly late date - was unconstitutional from the start.

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Satire above all,

03/12/2008 16:58:30
The majority of all Scots, excepting those Unionists who put Scotland second behind the notion of Britain at every opportunity, are against Nuclear subs in Scotland and nuclear power stations.

Let them build as many stations as they like in England, somewhere in the home counties willl do niceley, before they try thrusting them upon us.

john Z #51 #52 I'm with you. You and I would have stood on the side of Wallace...we know who would be standing against us, and against Wallace...those that oppose Scotalnd now
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03/12/2008 16:59:39
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Jimmy Le Pie,

03/12/2008 17:06:49
I hear from the BBC radio news that the Herald is paying off most of their journalists (I thought, like the Hootsmon, they didn't employ any!)

Hootsmon next????
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Shredder,

03/12/2008 17:17:39
"The Nationalists claimed the report was a clear indication that the Calman Commission wanted to end the Scottish Government's veto."

Funny, that: the SP would still have the planning veto over new nuclear power stations if the Nats hadn't been trying to impose their discredited anti nuclear policy.

Most ordinary punters would be unaware that the SP has this power in the first place, so I doubt if taking it away will provoke any great outcry.

Well done to the commission, if they indeed find a method of assigning tax revenue without handing over tax levers: this solution will provide the SP with much needed financial accountability without jeopardising the unity of the UK; which is the sensible way forward (unless you happen to adhere to a dogmatic nationalist faith, that is!)
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03/12/2008 17:18:48
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Yr Awel,

Here & There 03/12/2008 17:28:50
To F. Quimby

This is my answer to yours on another thread two days ago (?); sorry for the delay (couldn’t get through to the site at the time, and don’t know why), and for tackling issues obviously irrelevant on this thread.

Oh dear! What a long answer to ... an 'unsolicited post'!
Anyway, who said I was divine, or a teacher (though you do somehow sound like one)?
Basically, my post was not meant against you (I'd have to be barmy), but against a certain vision of the political.
My point was:
1 - it might be a good idea if we had a bit more respect for diversity of opinion, and if we accepted that no matter how strongly we believe in something, it may be (partly) wrong after all (eg how much would we know about the past if history was written by the victors only? Think of the 1789 Cahiers de doléances eg).
2 - The meaning of the saying in Provençal was (roughly): being wrong does not really matter (far from insulting!)
3 – You talk about diversity in France, but ignore any beyond the regional dimension. And anyway, Occitanie, as it has been dreamed up by linguists over the last 40 years, has never existed. Quite the opposite!

Quant à la France que vous décrivez plus généralement (et c'est naturellement votre droit le plus strict!), elle est à l'exacte dimension du reproche que je fais à tout nationaliste, à savoir de ne retenir que telle ou telle chose. La France, pays centralisé et à réformer? Comment vous donner tort? Peut-on cependant en tirer toutes les conclusions possibles et imaginables? J'en doute. Car les "hussards noirs de la République" dont vous parlez, non contents de ne jamais quitter leur département d'origine, adhéraient, en tant qu'instituteurs et en tant que citoyens, à un projet POLITIQUE dont ils pensaient, eux, en leur âme et conscience, qu'il était moralement plus juste, même si l'Etat (mais qu’est-ce que l’Etat ?) avait d'autres projets. Le problème de la Corse (pardon, de CERTAINS Corses, comme de CERTAINS de nos concitoyens
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Observer. 1,

03/12/2008 17:29:53
299 #What a daft post. Do you think the SNP should have said, och we'll not use the veto on nuclear power, we'll just let them build the things, if we let on to anyone we can stop them, they'll take the power away.


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Alan Reid,

Borbjerg 03/12/2008 17:35:35
284 Elephant,Linlithgow, To decommission the nuke power stations in the UK is going to cost 75 Billion of tax payers money, not what I call good value
And I read that figure 2 years ago, you see it will take twenty years to decommisson one power station. So how much will it cost at the end of all that time?

299 Shredder, The SNP are quite right to appose this, if you want nuclear plants in England on you go, but YOU pay for them, AND you keep the waste.
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Shredder,

03/12/2008 17:39:15
#303: yes! Believe it or not, I quite agree with your post.

The Nationalists were exploiting a legal loophole for all it was worth purely out of zeal to pursue their ridiculous crusade against the clean, safe resource that is nuclear power.

It's the behaviour of the spiteful and inward looking zealots that the Nationalists undoubtedly are: am I right or am I right!
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Doh,

03/12/2008 17:39:23
#264 Missh

As VRH would say it was "dis-as-ter"

But my point being it is a bit stupid to project election results from a single point.

We all thought the SNP would win but they failed - so I would have though that would make some of the biblical predications by cybernats maybe just a little less hysterical. But maybe not.

Its time.



Anyway I say forget Calman and start pushing a federal compromise. BTW I dont the long term threat to the union does come from the SNP - but rather from the lack of an English parliament.

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Shredder,

03/12/2008 17:42:03
#304 Alan Reid: take it up with Bob Geldof and numerous other environmental lobbyists who have convinced themselves of the efficacy of nuclear.

The Nationalists really are out of step with current informed opinion on this one (but that goes without saying from the party that still resolutely clings to its much cherished but increasingly anachronistic separation policy!)
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03/12/2008 17:42:46
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Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 17:44:27
"All 235 journalists working on Newsquest's three Glasgow-based newspapers, including the Herald, have been given redundancy notices and invited to reapply for fewer jobs in a new multimedia editorial structure."
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Observer. 1,

Glasgow 03/12/2008 17:46:21
305 Oh dear. Oh dear dear dear. I don't mock the afflicted.
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Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 17:46:48
Has tu_campesino-ytu_obrero been banned?
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Shredder,

03/12/2008 17:47:58
#309: I'd recommend that you take your Berero moniker (see post #283) to the Tory blogsite. I'm sure that he'll go down a storm amongst there!

I have no association with the crazed Dr Who fan with who thinks he's the devil incarnate: you're the one with all the funny aliases on here, Prof MacBonnacord/Berero/Big Banana Feet/The Force/etc etc
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Alan B,

03/12/2008 17:49:28
#Chris42

I think the tories are probably split on the issue. And by not making a submission they are ensuring the party is not publicly split. But in truth I have no idea.

It is bizzare for a party wanting to be taken seriously in government not to atleast have a view of how they think a country should be best governed.

Murdo Fraser and afew others are reportedly pro federalisation of the uk and also some sort of fiscal autonomy. But I have no idea how strongly they believe in that and it would seem it is secondary to tory party unity and the union.

The problem with the tory party is they are too conservative with a small "c". Goldie comes across as a decent politician and manager but not someone with vision or having any economic direction or strategy.

I am never quite sure if the tories have truely accepted and believe in the scottish parliament as a means of better governance for scotland or just more accept it is a fact of life and will get on with it, with many still anti. There sole mp in scotland gives the impression of being anti the sp.

The other thing for the tories in scotland is they will probably take much of their lead from westminster. And Cameron is wooly on so much they are not being encourage to have decisive action or repond to issues regarding problem with scottish mps voting on english matters as that has been fudged.

289

Nevsky,

Moscow 03/12/2008 17:51:51
307 Shredder#

Just to put you a little in step, Bob Gelderhof may be who yo believe with regard to uclear policy but not me.

Most Scots are against new nuclear power stations (up to date point 1)

The union is an anachronism, that's why the unionist fed Calman commission was set up...even they understand this!

Up to speed yet..or perhaps you will quote Barbara Taylor Bradford next with regard to Scots and the union?
290

,

03/12/2008 17:57:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
291

Observer. 1,

03/12/2008 17:59:43
321 - It's a dirty trick that, being made to apply for your own job. Let's management weed out the troublemakers and force people to sign up to inferior conditions.

I hope Douglas Fraser and Alf Young are pleased with themselves, it has been their editorial policies which have driven readers of the Herald away.

If I want a Labour rag, I can buy a tabloid.
292

Alan B,

03/12/2008 18:01:50
#Shredder

re nuclear.

Firstly i would not be setting an energy strategy based on Bob Geldoff.

Secondly the point is whether scotland via the parliament should decide the energy make up for scotland or whether westmister should and possibly ride roughshode over scottish opinion. Democracy is after all about the concent of the people.

For a long time labour were anti nuclear and the tories were pro. In the 80s labour went on about the tories being anti scottish by pushing unwanted nuclear on scotland.

I cannot see any reason why the scottish parliament should not decide on the energy makeup of scotland. That is after all the point of devolution.

As for the snp being out of step on nuclear. The lib dems are also anti nuclear. Labour under McConnell in the previous administration was reportedly anti nuclear. Cameron for the tories is not convinced and his own review came out against.

The reason blair messed about and delayed over nuclear was due possible adverse reaction from the english electrate. Brown is running scared that if he proposes nuclear for england and scotland escapes then the issue of a scot pushing nuclear for england while not able to do the same for scotland will rear its head.

The fact is scotland does not need nuclear, but england does to meet climate change objectives. Scotland is already targetting to meet 50% of energy from renewables by 2020 while england will not meet 20%. As such england has a much bigger energy gap that scotland. Made bigger by the fact scotland export electricity.
293

radge dug,

Alba gu brath 03/12/2008 18:09:04
Yeah 1 - more folk watch BBC Alba than there are Gaelic speakers. Same for the likes of Eorpa on BBC 2.

BBC Alba also shows the first SPL highlights on a Saturday as well as rugby and shinty games. I know non-speakers who watch this stuff. Other programs are subtitled so even those who have the huge advantage of only one language can understand those with two or more.

Slainte mhath.
294

Shredder,

03/12/2008 18:13:38
#326 Alan B: as far as I am aware, nuclear power just isn't a major issue amongst the Scottish Electorate. Opinion poll evidence may suggest otherwise, but it's not exactly a "make or break" issue for the great unwashed out there.

You're quite clearly clutching at straws in trying to suggest that senior Lab and Con politicians lean towards an anti nuclear stance. Labour abandoned the policy when it became untenable (it ranks alongside their old pro CND stance as an embarrassment best forgotten). How long until the Nats jettison the anti nuclear policy as well, or is the SNP the last refuge for lost causes?
295

Scunnert,

03/12/2008 18:16:54
325 Observer. 1,

"I hope Douglas Fraser and Alf Young are pleased with themselves, it has been their editorial policies which have driven readers of the Herald away."

I've been posting on a few threads there today. Wierd though - on a couple of threads my posts are moderated even though no sweary words or attacks on other posters. Tried a couple of times on these threads - nothing?

I wonder how many other posters get that treatment? On threads that should attract lots of comment there are only two or three posts. This may give the casual reader the impression that folks aren't bothered about these issues when in fact the are very concerned.

The "lawful" killing of De Menezes and Bell's article on the UK terror state are the ones I've been unable to comment on. Important issues to my mind - yet three comments in each???

The Herald is heading to tabloid status.

296

Poisoned Bait,

03/12/2008 18:24:26
#331: you tell that great feathered troll, Georgie Boy! He's been asking to be shot down for some time, so he has!
297

Shug,

03/12/2008 18:40:03
If the UK is going to have more nuclear power stations in the future it makes perfect sense for them to be located in the most remote parts of the country (UK). Talk of a Scots veto is guff, just NIMBY on a large scale.
298

Hugh Roscombe,

03/12/2008 18:40:13
"Is it not illegal to shoot an endangered species?"

With this government - anything goes. I'm now off for a swan supper.
299

Poisoned Bait,

03/12/2008 18:43:01
#335: in view of the fact that there may one day be a separation referendum, complete with a comprehensible question set by Westminster, then yes, I would agree with you that Nats should be on the endangered list.
300

Alan B,

03/12/2008 18:44:28
#Shredder

I am not particularly anti nuclear myself. But the question is whether it should be decided by the scottish parliament and get the democratic accountability of the scottish people or whether the scottish parliament and hence the people have not control over the issue.

Whether you think it is an important issue is irrevelent. Democracy is about letting the people choose and letting them decide if it is an important issue of not.

As i said the idea that it has to be nuclear as you suggest and that the snp are isolated on this is false. The lib dems share the snp policy. And Cameron the leader of the opposition in westminster is not an advocate.

You also ignored the issue that it is not a necessity for scotland, whereas it probably is for england given that scotland has alot more potential for renewables. As i say i am not against nuclear myself on principle but have more recently come to the conclusion it is not the best way forward for scotland for a number of reasons.

Labour under McConnell did not abandon it for scotland. Brown abandonned it for england and wants to push scotland to take the same line. Why? Think about it.
301

Alan B,

03/12/2008 18:46:33
#Shredder

From a slightly different perspective.

How much electricity is brown proposing for england?

The figure for renewables is about 20% by 2020.

Then consider that scotland who exports electricity is looking at 50% by 2020 renewables and then do the maths.

302

Growwild,

03/12/2008 18:46:41
321... This is the way things have been heading for a while. It's "our way or the high way"

I'm guessing the same people pulling the mainstream media/science/eductaion strings are now pulling the Scotmans strings.

Welcome to hell - "Heil Brown"
303

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/12/2008 18:59:56
I wait to see the outcome of Calman and his commission.
304

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 20:09:33
#330
Scunnert,
03/12/2008 18:16:54

I have tried to post on The Herald today 4 times and on all but three of them they disappeared.

The first one I tried to draw a metaphor between a hoer, Mandy Rice Davies and Kenny Calman, which was to the effect that when asked why one of clients denied ever meeting her she replied

"well he would wouldn't he"

Calman denies he is a Labour stooge????


Maybe it was the part of the post later when I explained the Mandy married an Israeli and opened several night clubs in Israel, towhit

Mandy's
Mandy's Candies
Mandy's Singing Bamboo

Maybe I am under Mandy's Fatwa





but which one????


I managed the post

"I think Calman is absolutely on the right track!"

in 3 minutes flat, so it is not my moniker which is the problem


Anyway The Herald will soon be known as

The Evening and Sunday Times-Herald

very soon
305

Fred Quimby,

03/12/2008 20:12:07
#335
Hugh Roscombe,
03/12/2008 18:40:13


"Is it not illegal to shoot an endangered species?"


Is Gordon Brown or even the Labour Party endangered

Get my 12 bore please
306

Satire above all,

03/12/2008 21:32:52
Anyone want to buy a SCOTTISH NOT BRITISH T-shirt?
307

Gtj,

03/12/2008 22:41:44
They've all been sacked over at the Hearld. What a shame.

Here's an idea, maybe they should try and employ less biased journalists. You never know it might catch on.
308

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 23:30:49
Glad to be back. Many good posts regards Calman and what it would mean to Scotland and its people.

Without being biased the Nationalist and others who are pro-Scotland win by a mile..

The broad church we have in this vibrant party working for all of us have given various views. That is understandable as the Calman report is complicated mostly due to lack of info. Also due to the fact that it is incomplete.
I welcome debate that shows much positive thinking for Scotland. I have read all the posts and there are to many accolades to hand out.

Not unexpected I suppose I cannot be so complementary
towards the pro-unionist whose debating skills are dire. Blown out the water a few miles south of the Tweed and Solway.
Hopefully they shall be happy... South of the border down Englands way...LOL
Thanks for a good read folks and may I congratulate the more right wing Liebour views for the comic strip submissions..

Many points have been raised therefore my input shall stay short.

The Calman report up to present day is a sham, ( many posters have already mentioned this ) and this can be very dangerous for the Liebour, Tory, LibDem pro unionist alliance. I see little future for this alliance and I believe a split is an absolute certainty. When that happens I believe the Independence parcel shall take further steps to a FREE SCOTLAND.
Calman has to provide answers for Brown and Mandelson ( his boss ) that shall be acceptable to us Scots. I certainly welcome input from all nationals, religions and of all colour who have made their home in my country.
I do not think Calman can produce any answers acceptable to the majority in Scotland. Westminster will be on the slippery slope to Independence---------------FOR ENGLAND. I shall welcome that with open arms


No 180. Yeah,

Sorry I nearly forgot you therefore I shall fit you in now as you are not really important in the real world.
I note you have been sensible and the spell checks have came
309

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 23:41:27
cont.

to an end. Maybe, well maybe you would have been more productive spell checking the many posts on this topic including your own.

Can I mention regards voters who in my opinion should be exempt. Only my opinion.
Constituants who have problems high on drugs / medication or alcoholic have sadly given up the right to vote. Although I have much sympathy, sadly many are beyond repair and therefore brain damaged.

Not all but the majority from Liebour heartlands that have been in decay since the 1900s'.

I feel for those who have been caught up in the traps life has put before them. Hopefully many can be helped within their communities.

I note no apology has been forthcoming due to your impoverished attempt at trying to misquote me in a previous post.. Typical.

Regret delay but I had a real busy day coaching the youth of my area...............


Sorry about the dots Yeah. Just a wee habit I have got.







310

puskas,

East kilbride 03/12/2008 23:59:18
I don't believe we have heard the last of this..

Dispute procedure? Ploughmans lunch

Was it Thatcher's policies that allow the Herald's owners to attempt this. Browns?

Wage cuts,? changes to working conditions.?

Puts me in mind of when they brought the minimum wage out.. Companies paying a tenner per hr. closing down making their staff redundant.
Moving, changing name, and employing staff at the minimum wage... Minimum wage? a farce that kept down wages in general..
311

Growwild,

04/12/2008 00:21:09
346.. ""Constituants who have problems high on drugs / medication or alcoholic have sadly given up the right to vote. Although I have much sympathy, sadly many are beyond repair and therefore brain damaged""

So why do we allow the same people to run the country??

Not all "drugs" are dangerous, if you dont believe what liebour say then how can you be so sure that everything else they say is true?

Some 'drugs' are supressed and lied about for the benefit of the oil/medical cartels.

And the anti-English/England statements does no favours.. The English have been shafted and lied to all their life too.. We are all the same people being shafted and lied to by the same corrpt people.

Labour,Torys etc are all just puppets. No matter what party was in 'power' just now the same things would be going on..

Lies, Lies and more lies for hundreds of years have wrecked people and this planet. Every race,religion and culture has the same enemy.
312

puskas,

East kilbride 04/12/2008 00:51:10
No 351.


I agree with a good bit of what you say.
313

puskas,

East kilbride 04/12/2008 00:57:27
No351.

Anti English Statements. ?


Where? ......... Growwild. Not in any of my submissions.

Cheers
314

Growwild,

04/12/2008 01:49:10
353... Sorry Puskas.

I wasn't directing that part to you, that was just a general statment I came on to say in the first place for everyone, then I noticed your bit regarding what I quoted and addressed that too, next time i'll be more clearer and add lines or something :)

Sorry again, peace
315

puskas,

East kilbride 04/12/2008 14:52:07
No353 Growwild . Nae bother. I just thought maybe I had written a piece that could have been misinterpreted.

Regards

316

donald,

glasgow 05/12/2008 06:59:05
Flashpoint as England drops nuclear bomb in Caithness.

 

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