Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Holyrood set for new cash powers

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 25 February 2009
RADICAL changes to the Scottish Parliament – including the addition of sweeping new financial powers – appeared inevitable last night, after both Labour and the SNP announced major reviews of their approach to the devolution settlement.
The Scottish Labour Party yesterday tabled its formal submission to the Calman Commission on devolution, and announced it was now backing borrowing powers for Holyrood.

At the same time, the SNP's John Swinney, the finance secretary, said he was willing to consider a watered-down form of independence, so-called "devolution max", as a stepping stone to full independence.

The decision by the two main parties at Holyrood to move towards more powers for the parliament and away from their previously entrenched positions was being seen as a clear indication that major changes to the devolution settlement will now go ahead.

Sir Kenneth Calman's Commission on Scottish devolution will report later this year. But with Labour, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats now all in favour of borrowing powers, it would be a major surprise if changes to the settlement were not recommended by the commission and endorsed by the UK government.

Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, said: "The powers of the Scottish Parliament are well established and function well, but we recognise the importance of the financial accountability of the parliament. While the parliament has tax-raising powers, we believe there should be consideration of borrowing powers similar to that of the prudential borrowing framework that already exists."

Tavish Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, a party that has not only backed borrowing powers for some time but also persuaded the SNP to support the move through the Calman Commission, said: "I'm pleased that Labour finally seem to have realised that the status quo is not enough."

Indeed, this represents a significant move for Labour, which had previously accepted there was a need to examine the scope of the devolution settlement, but which had not recommended any definite changes.

Mr Swinney took an equally important step in the development of devolution when he unveiled a document setting out five possible options for Scotland's future, of which independence was only one. The finance secretary insisted independence was his "preferred option" and argued that the case had been made more compelling by the economic downturn.

But more revealing was Mr Swinney's readiness to embrace the idea of "devolution max" or "independence lite" as a stepping stone to his ultimate goal.

This appeared to be a clear attempt to get the Liberal Democrats to back an independence referendum, but it also represented a considerable softening of the SNP'S previously hard-line approach to the devolution settlement – that independence was the only option.

Under "devolution max", full financial powers would be devolved to Scotland, giving the parliament control over everything except monetary policy.

Mr Swinney said: "Devolution max would give us the greatest degree of freedom short of independence. It would increase accountability, it would increase the degree of responsibility that could be exercised by the Scottish Parliament, but it would be constrained by the financial arrangements and the reserved powers which would remain with the UK."

He went on: "We remain open to others formulating an alternative proposition as to where we move to as a country.

"The government's preferred option is for independence, but there are other scenarios and it is for others to formulate the other scenarios they would like."

One senior SNP source said he believed Mr Swinney's more conciliatory approach was an attempt to "flush out" a unionist position for the referendum.

"We are open to having a third question on the referendum, but they haven't come up with anything yet. Maybe this will do that for them," the source said.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, is due to meet Gordon Brown in London today for talks on the economic crisis and it is understood he will push the Prime Minister for borrowing powers for the Scottish Parliament.

After Donald Dewar, the then Scottish Secretary, piloted the bill creating the Scottish Parliament through the Commons, he insisted that the settlement was not "set in stone".

But between then and 2007, Labour resisted any attempts to change it or to give Holyrood major new powers, arguing that it needed time to "bed down".

However, after its election defeat in 2007, Labour decided to champion a commission to examine the settlement and, with the help of the Tories and the Liberal Democrats, the Calman Commission was launched.

The Scottish Labour Party failed to make clear exactly what it wanted the commission to recommend until yesterday, when it published its official submission, including an endorsement of borrowing powers.

The devolution settlement did not give borrowing powers to the former Scottish Executive. Instead, each administration has been given a finite block grant and it had to stick within that allocation each year.

The push for borrowing powers for the Scottish Government has come, partly, from a recognition that the Northern Ireland Executive has limited borrowing powers, as do local councils.

Ministers believe borrowing powers would enable them to spread the cost of big infrastructure projects, such as the new Forth bridge, over many years, rather than draining other budgets for a short time, as they will have to do under present rules.

Five degrees of separation that were on the table

JOHN Swinney launched a bid for Liberal Democrat support for an independence referendum yesterday by bringing forward a proposal for "devolution max" – a watered- down form of independence – as a stepping stone to separation.

The finance secretary said his preferred option was independence but he would be prepared to accept full fiscal autonomy as progress along the road to that goal.

Mr Swinney's announcement was greeted as a major softening of the SNP's position, which had been to advocate independence and nothing else.

Tavish Scott and his fellow MSPs have insisted consistently that they would not support a referendum on independence but Mr Swinney now appears to be hoping that the prospect of devolution max on the referendum ballot paper may be enough to bring the Liberal Democrats on board.

Mike Rumbles, for the Liberal Democrats, said: "We remain opposed to an independence referendum. We will work with other political parties through the Calman Commission for greater powers for the Scottish Parliament, but will not expose Scotland to any referendum designed to gain independence."

The five options outlined by Mr Swinney yesterday were:

• The status quo. This was ruled out by the finance secretary as unacceptable and it is not an option favoured by any of the parties.

• Assigned taxes. Would see the parliament given control over revenues raised by specific taxes but not over ways of altering the taxes themselves. Mr Swinney rejected this yesterday as a "step backward".

• Enhanced devolution. Would transfer some powers to Holyrood, such as energy and control over certain tax powers, including personal or environment taxes. Mr Swinney said he did not believe this would go far enough.

• Devolution max. Would be full fiscal autonomy for Scotland within the UK, with Holyrood given complete control of all tax rates and levers. Holyrood would have control over everything except monetary policy, leaving it a short step from independence. Mr Swinney was willing to accept this as a stepping stone.

• Full independence.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 February 2009 9:54 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

subrosa,

25/02/2009 00:13:11
Well done John Swinney for your cunning negotiations and bringing the main opposition 'onside'. Another step in the right direction.

It's insulting Scotland doesn't have fiscal powers when N Ireland have had them for some time. Typical of the labour government though.
2

redcliffe62,

25/02/2009 00:29:42
this will attempt to marginalise the liberals again, as a sensible mediator, which i believe will succeed on labour's part. if there is no perceived difference then no reason to leave labour to vote liberal. there was just achance with labour being stupid on all matters scotland that people who were not going to vote snp might go half way and vote liberal. this might stop that.
labour needs its base at 34 per cent to hold, and the tory vote at 16 and snp at 33 is solid, so cannot afford libs to get up to say 23 as that would mean apart from west of scotland labour would be wiped out.
3

Jock MacSprog,

25/02/2009 00:59:02
excellent. Theyve proven to be such excellent custodians of our money, that they really should be given more responsibility to spend it.
4

frank mcbride,

lusitania 25/02/2009 01:01:34
The chance of Calman recommending FFA is about as good as expecting The Brown Fella to admit any blame for the current economic situation.

It will be interesting to see what position the LDs take.
5

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 25/02/2009 01:11:57
I suppose that Unionists will argue that a revised devolution settlement will "kill independence stone dead".

They just don't have a clue.
6

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 25/02/2009 01:37:23
Not even 2 years into the Parliament and already the Fiscal Argument has been made by the SNP and conceded by the Unionists. Excellent work. That is what being a party with Scotland at it's heart is all about. Funny how Roofarse and his nomes de plume are not jumping over this one.
7

Edward,

25/02/2009 01:38:01
The prefered option is of course full independence and no more rule from London
8

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/02/2009 04:36:12
More cunning the other way really. This will mean the Referendum Question will have to include an option for Dev Max, otherwise the SNP will loose the vote if Dev Max is on the table and the referendum is a straight Independence or no.

Watch out for Labour taking over this and saying "we've always supported Dev Max".

Still, I'm with the SNP on this, and have always thought a single step to Independence was a step too much for the Scottish people after 3002 years of being under the English yoke. Most caged birds and long-term prisoners find a comfort in their prison cells, even when the door is left open and they can leave.

The SNP said "we will show the country we can govern, and govern well" - and they have certainly done that. If Dev Max is the way, then the SNP will show the country they are fiscally responsible - unlike Labour, who, when they get a budget, act like a drunk trying to buy a drink after closing time.

Independence is the preferred option, but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'll take Dev Max as a stage on the road to inevitable Independence - AS LONG AS IT IS DEV MAX.
9

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/02/2009 04:48:22
What is the betting for the following scenario:
1) Labour have said this is a two-way process and that devolution need to be reviewed and some powers may need to be returned to Westminster.
2) Westminster desperately wants the Scottish Government's ability to block the building of Nuclear Power plants in Scotland
3) Westminster will propose the Scottish Government some minimal financial powers, such as Assigned Taxes, in return for Scotland giving up the power to block Nike Plants.
4) Labour in Scotland, on instructions from their masters in London, will go for Assigned Taxes as "the best Scotland can get".

Labour has no policy in this regard, and the Swinney has just made up their policy for them.

Labour and all their Cronies in the Scottish Press will embrace Assigned Taxes as though it has been part of the Labour manifesto since Keir Hardie.
10

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 25/02/2009 04:58:08
The twilight of the oligarchs'll be a d'mned fine thing. But to paraphrase Enoch, devolution, max or min, is aye power retained. By the anglo-american bankster faction notoriously fronted by the Bushista crime family and all who associated with their junkbond culture. Were they criminals? Were they manifestly clinically insane?

Obviously both.
11

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/02/2009 04:59:05
Westminster will never accept anything above Assigned Taxes - even if they would accept that.

They would never accept Enhanced Devolution because it includes control over Energy, and the target for Westminster is to REMOVE the Scottish Government's ability to block Nuke Plants.

Westminster will never accept Dev Max, because even Bendy Wendy'd husband saw that if Scotland had full Fiscal autonomy, it would be illogical for it NOT to become Independent.

The best that Westminster can hope for is to give Assigned Taxes in exchange for the Scottish Government giving up the ability to block Nuke Plants. That is Westminster's First Prize. They might even go as far as allowing limited Borrowing Powers.

The worst thing the SNP could do is to accept the shiny bauble of Borrowing Powers in exchange for their ability to block Nuke Plants.
12

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 25/02/2009 05:01:45
Sorry, in #10, I didn't mean to suggest that the Scottish Government should have the ability to block the production of Sports Goods. It should read "....Nuke Plants"
13

Alathea,

25/02/2009 06:28:31
Ian Gray said

"we believe there should be consideration of borrowing powers similar to that of the prudential borrowing framework that already exists."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Westminster 2 trillion in debt and he calls it prudent.



14

morris,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 06:39:03
If Holyrood is given extra powers to retain and spend existing taxation then well and good because we already pay more than our fair share into Westmonsters coffers and never see much of it again.
I have heard" borrowing money" mentioned which presumably means future repayments become inevitable,and whilst that might well help the current situation it does hot help future situations when we are burdened with this repayment.
The reason why the UK will struggle more than other nations is because Comrade Broon has borrowed right left and centre when the adiition of oil revenues should give us a clear advantage over other nations.
The so called Iron Chancellor and now Prime Monster Broon is in fact incompetent.

Am I the only person on the planet who does not know where you can get free money from ?I must be!

If Scotland has won the right to be in debt then I fail to see any victory there.
Anyone can live beyond their means. The answer is to stop doing so,not encourage it!
We have heard Mike Rumbles claim that independence would cut us off from the World economies? Thats funny. It was as part of the UK that we floundered . Are they cut off also? They are an independent country after all! In fact every single country is independent so are we all cut off from each other,in which case the "Global Recession" is but a figment of our imagination, and individual economies do not affect others.
It sounds reasonable what Mike Rumbles has claimed but only of you are disingenuous or stupid!

The time for Scotland to rid herself of the Union Dividend is NOW.
15

Angleland Isover,

25/02/2009 06:41:13
Makes sense. If Scotland loses the Independence vote they at least gain a stepping stone. If the deal is withdrawn or watered down then surely the waverers would rather see a free Scotland rather than a country with less powers than N Ireland. The unionists wouldn't care if Scotland has less powers than Blackpool but they shall be in the minority.
16

John S,

25/02/2009 06:47:02
#10 For Scotlands Future.....2).3). I think Westminster desperately wants to keep the Trident nuclear missile system in Scotland as well as the building of Nuclear Power plants here with the former being more important, go ahead with the Trident replacement system then what will happen to Trident if/when Scotland gained independence ?
17

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 25/02/2009 06:59:54
Every step of the road towards full Independencee. The sooner the better.
18

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 07:08:10
It looks like even Swinney is shying away from independency. Meanwhile, the opposition take the initiative, while the exec sit on the sidelines wondering why they can't get any legislation passed.

Salmond is so scared of being seen to argue for independence, that he has to go to the US to do it.
19

morris,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 07:20:24
19
Whilst I accept that a debate is well possible over the wisdom of what Swinney proposes as a short term excersise,please be under no illusion. The SNP has not and will not water down its commitment to independence. We still have to govern meantime and that's precisely what they are doing.That has absolutely nothing to do with a DILUTION OF INDEPENDENCE.
There is no way that the SNP could ever dilute their raison d'etre. Their own membership would never allow such a notion to even see daylight.
Because some people are deaf by choice it does not mean that nobody has said anything.
20

David MacVicar,

web 25/02/2009 07:21:20
I read the full Government document - sad I know.

Anyway one thing that has happened here is that the SNP have suddenly clarified in the eye of the public what Devolution MAX means prior to a referendum.

The opposition spoke about Dev MAX while thinking of dev MIN. Now dev MAX is intrinsically linked to fiscal control.

This I think is a key position be in prior to any referendum and has put major pressure on the unionists not to vote down the referendum bill.
21

David MacVicar,

web 25/02/2009 07:24:57
The BBC quoted Iain Gray as stating that Calman "has rejected fiscal autonomy as not in the best interests of Scotland."

What a bare faced lie.

a) Calman stated they rejected fiscal autonomy because it would damage the UNION which he is bound to protect at any cost to Scotland or England for that matter.

b) Scotland will decide what is best for us not irrelevant place man Calman.
22

Otis B. Driftwood,

Abroad 25/02/2009 07:47:46
With this U-turn, perhaps Labour in Scotland have finally come to realise that NuLab WILL lose the next Westminster GE.
They're only (faint) hope, then, would be to lead a Scottish Parliament.
Therefore,the more power the SP has, the more power NuLab can retain.
Labour looking after Labour's interests. Nothing new then.
23

tartan army 2222,

25/02/2009 07:48:49
Have the Libs forced Labour's hand - give us extra cash powers or we'll support an independence referendum?

The fear of a referendum by the unionist parties is very, very telling.
24

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 07:55:52
Personally. I feel that greater fiscal autonomy would be a good thing if structured properly. People in Scotland should be under no illusions though as to what it would entail. Unless the price of oil shoots up a long way and stays high (assuming Scotland is allocated a geographical share) there will be an even large deficit in the budget. Oil and gas UK say that only one third of new developments in the North Sea are profitable at the current price of approx $41.

This is bound to entail large cuts in expenditure or large tax increases. Borrowing is all very well but unfortunately it has to be paid back at some stage out of taxation.

Those who feel confident that oil will shoot up to well over $100 per barrel again should buy oil futures. At present they are trading at $65 per barrel as far out as Dec 2012.
25

morris,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 07:57:15
23
An important point Dave and well said.

The Unionists are constantly trying to dodge reality and using anything which is to hand knowing that they will only have to retract it possibly at a later date, where enough of us remember,and that's extremely unlikely.WE SHALL SEE!
Presumably they think that we are so stupid that we forget what a load of absolute drivel they have propagated over the last forty years * (I'm feeling generous here it should be 300).
As long as people like yourself exist then I look forward to the day when my country is again.

The look on Gordon Brown and Ian Grays faces should be captured for the history books.
They will appear under a chapter called Och Aye and "The last of the MacQuislings"
26

,

25/02/2009 07:59:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 08:00:03
#22 Canes

"Isn't it time to get off your hobby horse and into the freedom bus?"

Unregulated, and provided by Stagecoach.

OK, I have stopped gagging. Tell me about freedom.
28

Nevsky;,

Moscow 25/02/2009 08:06:07
19 Tin Man#

What? Another masterstroke by the SNP. There are now three options for the referendum....no change...devolution max or independence.

Those who support borrowing powers cannot now campaign for 'no change' in a referendum...therefore the SNP win 'dev max' as the very minimum (and probable outcome).

It will look faintly ridiculous if Labour and the Tories state that they when they SNP are prepared to concede another option:

a) don't support a referendum on independence
b) don't support a second question regarding 'dev max'

The Lib Dems would go for it and have been positioning themselves...i dare say a few in Labour will support it...the have no choice really!

The remaining ties will be easy enough to sever in a few years.
29

morris,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 08:10:12
30

Well you presumably think you have it governed as you are presently .

I mean of course as part of the UK of GB and NI.

Irrespective of what attributes you acknowledge or not as the case may be,the proposal is that we have an almost identical set up at Holyrood as you favour at Westminster. Are you saying you dont agree with yourself?
Mind you I can see why!
30

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 08:17:26
"What? Another masterstroke by the SNP."

Drivel.

You seem to have lost the plot. Discussions regarding possible changes to the devolution settlement are boycotted by the SNP. They have decided to have no part in it. Sticking up for the people of Scotland? My hairy bum.

They made a very major error of judgement by not forming a coalition exec, because they couldn't get anyone with any clout to agree to vote for a referendum. Surprise, surprise, that hasn't changed. Or do you expect parties to renage on the policies they stated when they were elected (OK, as an SNP supporter, you might really be in favour of that...).
31

brownlie,

25/02/2009 08:19:13
19 Tin Man

Would you care to read your last paragraph again and perhaps you'll realise the nonsensical reasoning behind that statement?
32

gus1940,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 08:19:46
I don't suppoose Labour's U-turn over borrowing powers is anything to do with PFI south of the border heading in the direction of a t-ts-up scenario.
33

,

25/02/2009 08:20:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

brownlie,

25/02/2009 08:21:18
37 Tin Man

The Labour party has ruled the UK for the past decade by reneging on policies on which they were elected.
35

Faux Cul,

25/02/2009 08:27:25
Keep it up SNP

Once this particular card game is played and Scotland achieves, minimally, devolution max, the last game of the rubber is on, independence.

But the unionists will play every trick in the book, and many dirty ones not written but used in Ireland, north and south last century, to retain the last vestiges of the London Empire.

The end game commeth.



Hurrah!


ps what shall we do with Empire Loyalist Callabos afterwards?

All answers should be posted on one of the ScotGnats blogboards.

Any volunteers Wardog, Scunnert, Subrosa? All in the best possible taste, tough firmly in cheek.
36

Rob,

25/02/2009 08:29:07
What a total nonsense. You'd think that Scotland would have learned a thing or two about borrowing and finance, but no, these small town political numb skulls are at it again. The waste of money we see now is a sideshow to what they can do with greater fiscal authority..

I guess we could get a few Scottish bankers with experience to give them a hand - Goodwin, McKillop and Co haven't a lot going on at present.
37

TWC,

25/02/2009 08:35:02
Devolution max has always been the only option which could challenge the SNP, the problem is that the Unionist parties have come to it so late that it may not be enough now.
Labour's failure to represent Scotland and drive improvements in Finace, Brown's failure to even address Scotland in his fiscal Stimulus, his attack on pensions and reduced capping, the Iraq question and the obvious hiding of Oil revenues has lost a fair number of one time Labour supporters.
Even these posts have thrown up the real thoughts of Nu Labour employees.
38

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 08:37:02
#43 Canes

"37. Tinman's Hairy Bum

Is there medicine to stop it talking......."

Thank you for that contribution.

The SNP's attitude to an independence settlement would also be 'we'll take whatever you give us, but we can be bothered to engage in any negociations'?
39

,

25/02/2009 08:40:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

SNP hypocrisy,

25/02/2009 08:49:03
Translation: Swinney and the SNP know fine well that Scots voters will never back their bs policy, so this is backtracking on their flagship policy. Simply it's yet another thing that the SNP CANNOT deliver on.

Instead Swinney and the SNP hopes to TAX us! He also hopes for the Liberal Democrats to suddenly back the SNP's nonsense - something which they are opposed to. What a load of rubbish!
41

,

25/02/2009 08:49:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 08:51:52
#49 Canes

"I think you'll find that the Calman Commission excludes the independence option and that the National Conversation, the initiative with which the SNp have released this discussion paper, considers ALL of the options."

Yes, but the Nat Conversation is a joke, and unlike the Calman commission, it does not have a democratic mandate within Hollyrood. The exec have a duty to the electorate to engage with the commission.
43

SNP hypocrisy,

25/02/2009 08:53:20
Fauc Cul, is there something wrong with you? Seriously is there? Or are you a Canadian or some other non-Scottish nationality?
44

,

25/02/2009 09:00:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

SNP hypocrisy,

25/02/2009 09:04:48
60. Hey idiot. If you don't happen to be Scottish, then what exactly gives you the right to dictate or lecture on Scottish politics. Run along Canuck and concentrate on your own nation's politics. It is no surprise really that the most hateful time-warped NUTZ on this board happen to be non-Scots, with absolutely no idea of what's going on in Scotland. Which about sums up the SNP's arguments on many issues.
46

SNP hypocrisy,

25/02/2009 09:06:00
63. It certainly won't be the SNP. In a word Glenrothes. Push off fool.
47

The Tin Man,

25/02/2009 09:11:40
#59 Canes

"The Government have a duty to engage with the SCOTTISH PUBLIC on all options, that's what the National Conversation has been, is and will be doing "

Unfortunately, there is no substance to that statement, whatsoever. As far as I can see, the exec has singularly failed to engage the 'people of Scotland' on all options. It might actually be a good thing, but the Nat Conversation has been a resounding failure, so far.

Why can't they also take part in the commission, at the same time?
48

,

25/02/2009 09:13:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

,

25/02/2009 09:13:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

,

25/02/2009 09:18:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Publius,

London 25/02/2009 09:30:22
No chance for the SNP. Swinney (nor Salmond, nor anyone else in the Scottish government) will be no more successful in getting a complex referendum proposal through Holyrood than he was with LIT.
Little chance for Labour. Whatever Calman comes up with there won't be enough time before the next UK general election for Labour to get it through Westminster. After June 2010 it is odds-on there'll be a Tory government in London.
52

ZenBroon,

25/02/2009 09:34:22
#63. It certainly won't be the SNP. In a word Glenrothes. Push off fool.

I thought it was now common knowledge that 'winning' Glenrothes was actually a disaster for the UK Labour party. Many (the majority?) in his own party admit privately that Brown should have gone last year but Glenrothes helped him survive. Now Labour are lumbered with an unelectable leader and it is too late to change.
53

Courtney,

East Molesey 25/02/2009 09:37:26
More powers sought to waste even more money!
54

Farky,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 10:02:41
FULL INDEPENDENCE PLEASE!
55

,

25/02/2009 10:02:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 25/02/2009 10:03:54
Have these politicians learned NOTHING from the collapse of the entire banking system across the UK? Have they learned nothing from the destruction of the two 'home grown' banks in Scotland. They were all destroyed by greed and borrowing many, many times beyond their assets - in effect they were gambling on a massive scale. The Scottish Parliament receives the unimaginable sum of £33,000,000,000 direct subsidy from the UK taxpayer every year and it is still 'not enough' to bring basic goods and services to all parts of Scotland that need them. I wonder why? Could it be because a vast amount of that ocean of subsidy is squandered on the 'client state' of quangos, local authority jobsworths and insane initiatives.
If this shower of numpties are allowed to BORROW more money than they have in the coffers from HM Treasury - they will truly bankrupt this country - it will make the Darien scheme look like Alice's tea party.

What they need is 'fiscal responsibility' not more borrowing powers.
57

Miss H,

25/02/2009 10:11:33
78 Are you for real? I mean seriously, are you a real person?

The receives the unimaginable sum of £33,000,000,000 direct subsidy from the UK taxpayer every year.

Well no it doesn't but we won't carp about that. And UK taxpayers include Scottish taxpayers but we won't carp about that.

But I'll tell you what a really unimaginable sum is.

£1.5 trillion. How many noughts are in that? Does anybody know?

In case you don't get the significance of that sum it is the amount of debt that the UK Parliament has got us into. And it doesn't even include PFI debts. And what is absolutely hilarious about the whole scenario is that the Scottish Parliament doesn't even get a say in what that borrowing is for!
58

,

25/02/2009 10:13:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

,

25/02/2009 10:30:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

,

25/02/2009 10:37:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

tassiestag,

rosebery 25/02/2009 10:44:58
give the wee tin man a bit o,latitude,or better still a wee bit o,ile,he,s still squeakin a bit in kansas,wandering doon the yellow brick road.
62

eric,

25/02/2009 10:47:13
Jersey is a peculiar dependency and doesnt pay uk tax towards defence of islands.yet rep of ireland pay uk gvt so that raoyal air force cover ireland,Strange.
63

redcliffe62,

25/02/2009 10:49:03
so because brown has told gray it is required to appease the scottish voters who are leaving in droves in the unofficial polls it is now going to happen? what labour says no longer goes, the parliament seems to run better when they are in chaos and sit around and do nothing anyway.
on another side, very sad to hear what happened to david and sam cameron. his politics might be crass, but he is a father first and foremost and we wish him and his family well at this difficult time.
64

Sgian Dubh,

25/02/2009 10:52:12
MOD HOLDS BACK £50M TO FUND CIVIL SERVANTS' BONUSES.
This story on page 3 of this on-line edition, WHY NOT ON PAGE ONE?
65

,

25/02/2009 10:57:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/02/2009 10:58:23
Jim Murphy and the Scottish Labour Party are going to great lengths to tell us that Brown's cuts aren't cuts because we get more money now than when Donald Dewar was First Minister. I should certainly hope we get more now than we did ten years ago. As for the cuts that aren't cuts, the following are the Northern Irish and Welsh views:

"In 2007 the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Fein agreed to enter a power-sharing government.

But assurances were sought from the Government that the fledgling Assembly would be set on a secure financial footing.

Last week the Northern Ireland Finance Minister Nigel Dodds warned that the proposed cuts could hit the Stormont coffers.

It is estimated Northern Ireland could suffer between £140-200 million in losses if the cuts are implemented in the region." (Belfast Telegraph)

"The Chancellor has been asked to make a U-turn on multi-million pound budget cutbacks for Wales amid concerns thousands of public sector jobs are at risk." (Walesonline.co.uk)

These are cuts by any other name and Jim Murphy is so utterly disingenuous when he claims "Politicians seem to want to fight with each other, rather than fight the recession." For example, ripping up the SNP manifesto in parliament in a juvenile show of pointless bravado, failing to rip up Mike Russell's book because it was too thick for Iain Gray (or Iain Gray was too thick for it), urging Scots to accept nuclear at great environmental cost to the country (and without tackling the issue of why Scotland pays more to put power on the grid). Jim Murphy is both the Trojan Horse in Scottish politics and the velvet fist; there to say 'come on, why don't we all get along' while stabbing Scotland in the back. No longer is he Scotland's man in the cabinet, he's the cabinet's man in Scotland. We'd be better off if we could rid ourselves of the expensive Scotland Office, rather than cut public spending.
67

Nevsky;,

Moscow 25/02/2009 11:17:54
Looks like all the unionists are going to have to deterine what unionism means really?

Federal unionist, 'dev max' unionist, 'no change' unionist, 'no nuclear' untionist, 'full autonomy' unionist?

Not sure i know what it stands for anymore...perhaps just having Queenie as head of state is good enough for them?
68

ZenBroon,

25/02/2009 12:04:58
#92 "Could all Nats please come closer to the bars so I can poke them with my pointy stick."

But back in the real world, praise indeed today from the not-always-on-the-ball Herald "But it's clever stuff. If the SNP succeed in framing a multi-question referendum in such a way that the options are the status quo, devolution max or full independence then they win even if they lose. devo-max becomes the next status quo".
69

bill-alba,

fife 25/02/2009 12:20:20
A pragmatic move once again from the snp, the snp will obviously go into this with both eyes wide open and see calman as just another attempt by the treachourous british and vich scots to hang on to scotland for as long as they can..
70

Tris,

25/02/2009 12:21:03
Another step on the ladder to independence. Well done.

And the encouragement of Mrs Clinton, as arguably the most senior foreign minister in the world is very welcome.
71

BMeister,

25/02/2009 12:21:48
92 Smee.

That depends, which zoo are you in?
72

Fairfax,

25/02/2009 12:44:28
Miss H (79): "But I'll tell you what a really unimaginable sum is.

£1.5 trillion. How many noughts are in that? Does anybody know?"

Presumably your question is rhetorical but, just in case, it's £1,500,000,000,000 -- i.e. 1 trillion = 1000 billion = a million millions.

"In case you don't get the significance of that sum it is the amount of debt that the UK Parliament has got us into."

I'm no fan of Gordon Brown, but it's important to understand the difference between liabilities counted as debts and borrowed money. In this case, the increase in National Debt is caused by the (approximately) trillion pounds of RBS liabilities. However, RBS still has roughly a trillion pounds of assets, the vast majority of which are non-toxic. Thus National Debt, whilst worrying, is not quite as bad as the bald figure might indicate. Incidentally, PFI is trivial in comparison.
73

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/02/2009 12:49:15
100 ''the RBS still has roughly a trillion pounds of assets, the vast majority of which are non-toxic''.

Err I doubt it. Unless and until the banks separate the good debts from the bad (and sort out all those credit default swaps in the process) we won't actually know how much money the UK govt has thrown away on the banks do we. And how much we are all going to have to repay.

The addition of PFI to the PSBR will not be trivial.
74

Fairfax,

25/02/2009 12:59:07
Observer (101): "Err I doubt it."

In that case, your prediction is that we're facing probable financial collapse. Is that your view?"

"Unless and until the banks separate the good debts from the bad (and sort out all those credit default swaps in the process) we won't actually know how much money the UK govt has thrown away on the banks do we."

We don't know for certain, but we can estimate from the existing balance sheet. I would be surprised if the toxic assets affected more than £300 billion of RBS assets. Now that's still an enormous figure, equivalent to 3 times the annual cost of the NHS, but it still implies the majority of RBS assets are non-toxic. Further, many the toxic assets are not worthless, incidentally, if held to maturity.
75

Conan the Librarian™,

25/02/2009 13:06:30
92

What is your keeper thinking?

Giving you a pointy stick, you might hurt yourself.
76

Hugh Roscombe,

25/02/2009 13:11:02
103

An ad hominem attack 'cos you've nothing left to give. Get a life.
77

Conan the Librarian™,

25/02/2009 13:14:16
Morning Hugh. Hows the big wheel?
78

Hugh Roscombe,

25/02/2009 13:18:30
108

Afternoon Conan. Wheel was still there. I'm now back here. It was bollocky cold. Hope all's well.
79

Arfur,

25/02/2009 13:22:13
The Tin Man - The unionists have been out manoeuvred yet again by the SNP. Your just too thick to realise it or that it didn't come from a paper yesterday or today but goes all the way back to the budget.

The Lib Dums and Labour were so scared at the thought of an election they caved in on their demands HOWEVER part of the deal was that the SNP would have a look at Calman (you may remember at the time that we all said this gave the SNP the advantage of destroying Calman).

Before the budget we were possibly going to either have a 2 question or 3 question referendum with the third question being - as is with more borrowing powers.

NOW - the SNP have taken Calman and manoeuvred in such a way that they now may have both Labour and Lib Dem on board AND the third question will now be the much better option of Dev Max.
80

,

25/02/2009 13:23:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

Conan the Librarian™,

25/02/2009 13:25:19
109 I sent you an email with a blogspot address on it; come on in, the plungepool is lovely.
82

,

25/02/2009 13:31:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/02/2009 13:34:13
102 Yes we could be facing possible financial collapse. Still, look on the bright side, it might not happen.
84

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/02/2009 13:43:43
A step in the right direction but full Independance is essential. I want it now.
85

Brian S,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 13:54:11
Devolution MAX isn't something to be feared, it would put an end to this cross border snipping that's been firing folk up for years. Personally I would prefer full independence, but I'm happy to live Devo MAX if it's what the majority want.

I just wish the Lib Dems would get their finger out and actually stand up for their beliefs. Their wishy-washy approach to politics made me ditch them in favour of the SNP.

Like many others in favour of increased devolution or full independence, I really like Annabel Goldie. It's a such pity the Tories are fixed in their die-hard Unionism.
86

Brian S,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 13:55:22
#117

It's actually whisky.
87

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 25/02/2009 13:55:32

Ahhem.... "...every power except monetary." ??
And those powers are? Oh, please!
88

,

25/02/2009 14:04:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Time to Show Courage,

25/02/2009 14:12:52
Fantastic move from Swinney & Salmond. The unionists are left looking around stunned and saying "what happened there?"

Yet again the SNP give a masterclass in politics. Men against boys.

This brings us one giant leap closer to our destiny. Full fiscal autonomy is now the minimum we can expect.
90

IainGlasgow,

25/02/2009 14:14:38
Devolution max still seems to me to be a misnomer and a dilution of the independence argument. Better to let the opposition vote down a simple yes or no to independence referendum and justify that to voters in 2011.

Devolution max as an implementation of the Steel Commission report reccomendations on Lib Dem policy has its merits. This proposed that the Scottish Parliament should have control of practically everything except defence and *most* areas of foreign policy and is essentially independence with a small i.

The flaw in implementing Steel Commission is that it would require similar changes in England. It would necessitate the formation of an English Government and a UK Federal Government given the West Lothian question ramifications (you could not simply just bar Scottish MPs from the commons on such occasions). Then there is the issue of the status of Wales and Ulster. The only alternative (apart from status quo, independence or a return to pre devolution arrangements) is the granting of piecemeal extra powers under the existing Scotland Act (i.e. by Jim Murphy or his Tory Successor) which I very much doubt is what even the Lib Dems let alone John Swinney has in mind.

The priority must be for the Scottish Parliament and not Westminster to be absolutely sovereign, that way it can decide for itself what powers it has and which are shared with other nations of these islands. That means the constitutionally irreversible devolving of control over the Scotland Act. Cetainly no more nukes without its consent.
91

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 25/02/2009 14:19:21
It was feared that Status Quo could run out of steam as well as ideas so Devo Max is rolled out to service the British expat community whenever they need to boogie on an old 12 bar.

A financial collapse could happen because we've not been told about it. Have you though about operating your own regional currency to exchange goods and skills? The UK will be looking for an EU bail out but any euro-credit they can filch'll only be spent in England. Perhaps our sector of the North Sea will be sold to China for a crisis loan? Who knows?
92

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 14:21:27
So Labour MSPs have finally realised that when they inevitably lose the next election and the Tories move in to power at Westminster, "hmm we wont see any benefit unless we can borrow"

Labour have seen the Tory Train at the end of Brown's Tunnel
93

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 14:30:23
"To review the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better, improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament, and continue to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom."

Independent Expert Group

There is also an independent expert group, established to advise the Commission on financial accountability. It is chaired by Professor Anton Muscatelli, Principal and Vice Chancellor of Heriot-Watt University. The other members of the expert group are:

Jeremy Peat, Director of the David Hume Institute, former Group Chief Economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland and a former economic adviser at HM Treasury and the Scottish Office

Is the person above the best choice for,"improving financial accountability"?
94

weh,

25/02/2009 14:30:50
lets get one thing clear!

Absolutely NO financial powers worth a damn will be "granted" to Holyrood, by Mr Bean and his quisling cohorts in Scotland!

The ONLY way to achieve this is FULL INDEPENDENCE!

Simple, isnt it??
95

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 14:34:04
UBS strategist John Reade has suggested today (February 24th) that Gold Prices may rise to $1,200 per ounce or higher in the coming months, Reuters reports.

The price of the yellow metal has shot up by roughly $130 per ounce in the last month alone as investors continue to be attracted to its safe-haven qualities amid the current economic turbulence.

Isn't it a shame that Gordon Brown sold all that gold to china?
96

redcliffe62,

25/02/2009 14:49:17
dave lad, the reason he sold it was to pay mp's pensions. no flies on brown when it comes to trough licking.
97

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 25/02/2009 14:50:13
#92 "Could all Nats please come closer to the bars so I can poke them with my pointy stick."

You'll never poke anyone with a wee thing like that, dear.
98

Fairfax,

25/02/2009 14:53:13
Daveunderwater (130): "Isn't it a shame that Gordon Brown sold all that gold to china?"

I don't know who bought the gold, but it's interesting that almost all of it is still in the Bank of England's vaults: the new buyers pay a storage fee.
99

pehman,

sussex 25/02/2009 14:53:54
From the article;-

The Scottish Labour Party yesterday tabled its formal submission to the Calman Commission on devolution, and announced it was now backing borrowing powers for Holyrood.

They've changed their tune as it falls a long way short of F.F.A. rather than argue that Scotland is to poor. They can now argue that Scotland borrows to much.
100

Time to Show Courage,

25/02/2009 15:20:53
# 135 sm753,

Not a good day for you is it? But, at least you're consistent when the news is bad for you. In response, you revert to your instincts - personal abuse. Typical unionist response.
101

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 16:02:50
This looks like a no-lose situation for the SNP and Team Scotland appear to have played a blinder.

How the Unionists must wish they had someone of the calibre of Alex Salmond in their ranks!
102

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 16:09:07
My condolences to the Cameron family on their tragic loss.
103

Questions,

Glasgow 25/02/2009 16:26:57
This is one more step towards Scotland being independent.

Britain is finished and thank god for that.

It is our time no, it is the time of Scotland.
104

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 25/02/2009 16:29:40
sm 753

Nat morons - how very dare you, lol.

I see your manners are improving
105

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/02/2009 16:31:13
I find it incredible that Labour, as a party who helped set up devolution, now have become the establishment and seem to want to frustrate any further movement towards the electorate in Scotland having greater control over decision-making. 80% of people polled want more fiscal powers for Scotland. Labour have dug in their heels and resisted since the last Holyrood election. All Labour seem to stand for is maintaining the status quo which is, as I see it, a relationship of unequal partners.
106

Saruman,

25/02/2009 16:36:27
#145: I think the Spook in Leith (under various of his monikers) was responsible for the demise of the Salmond/US forum.

I would applaud SNP Hypocrisy for exposing his doings, but regret that the thread had to be closed before genuine posters (such as my goodself) were able to avail ourselves of the opportunity to contribute constructively to the ongoing debate in relation to the culty agenda which the Nats are trying to force down the throats of a disinterested Scottish populace.
107

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

25/02/2009 16:38:16
Rufus and SNPhypocrisy (rami ocasio, acasia, wee flower...) are suing us all for laughing at them.

Watch the Rami one, he might shoot He likes to hasang around with men handling big weapons....according to his own admissions.
108

Shredder,

25/02/2009 16:38:18
Swinney has made a huge tactical blunder in conceding that the option of "devolution max" can be put on a referendum paper. This is a dead cert to win the day over separation, after which Supernat's promise that a separation vote would be a "once in a generation" event can be repeated every time Nats try to move for another.

The Nats really have been sold a pup by Swinney (who we all know has been a secret supporter of devo max over separation all along!)

Swinney has effectively shovelled the first clod of earth over the coffin of the Nats' much ridiculed separation policy: is Shredder right, or is Shredder right!
109

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

25/02/2009 16:40:01
#149 - I think your trying to smear a poster for your own good reason as a LAbour supporter. Spook had words with Rami "little floo'er"Accacia a long time before thread was shut. So nice try at spray and pray. The last comments are legal ones from your own side, deal with it.
110

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 25/02/2009 16:43:32
149 Saruman

I am also a genuine poster, yet SNP Hypocrisy accused me and just about everyone else on that forum of being liars and cheats. If Spook in Leith did use various names and IDs then he should be dealt with. But the last thing you should do is applaud SNP Hypocrisy, anyone in any doubt about that should read his many rants on that forum and judge for themselves.
111

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 16:48:14
Smee

“Now, come here, Nat morons - time for a poke from the pointy stick again...”


You are not the sharpest pointy stick poker are you?

As a Tory, do you think that Aunty Bella would be proud of your imbecilic rants?

I believe that there is a case which could to be made for the retention of either the constitutional status quo, or even a return to direct rule from Westminster, however, you appear to be singularly ill-equipped to make this case.

Why is it the case that the proponents of the Unionist cause on these threads appears only to attract those of limited intellectual ability?

112

Publius,

London 25/02/2009 16:50:44
#151 Shredder

"Swinney has effectively shovelled the first clod of earth over the coffin of the Nats' much ridiculed separation policy: is Shredder right, or is Shredder right!"

No.

SNP probably never were going to get a referendum on independence in 2010, because they don't have an overall majority at Holrood. And in the unlikely event they get one, independence will almost certainly lose the popular vote.

Also time may be running out on Calman. Whatever Calman proposes there won't be time for Westminster to make major amendments to the Scotland Act before the next general election (June 2010 at the latest).
113

Publius,

London 25/02/2009 16:53:32
#155 bully wee alba

"Why is it the case that the proponents of the Unionist cause on these threads appears only to attract those of limited intellectual ability?"

Unionists not as deluded as the nationalists who believe that there will be a referendum on independence in 2010 and independence will win. ... And you said you were going to get LIT!
114

TWC,

25/02/2009 17:10:17
157 Publius,
There will be a referendum alright; to do otherwise would be to hand Independence to the Nats.
The only way to win this arguement is with positive pro union arguements and those include a bit of Humble Pie from Labour, Full fiscal Autonomy as a firm option to combat Independence and honesty in dealing with the partnership..
No More Labour Troll attacks like Hypocracy and Rufus in his dark moments.
This Iraq secrecy hasn't helped thecause eithe, it certainly sickens me.
115

Shredder,

25/02/2009 17:13:25
#158 Wind: "We know that dev max is also the same as independence lite. And from there, it's only a small step to all out independence."

Try telling that to the Nats in Quebec! Following that precedent, the best you Nats can hope is that you won't some day be told where to stick your *neverendum*!
116

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 17:14:49
157 Publius,London 25/02/2009 16:53:32

“Unionists not as deluded as the nationalists who believe that there will be a referendum on independence in 2010 and independence will win. ... And you said you were going to get LIT!”


Let us wait and see how the Scottish electorate vote in the referendum.

Given the choice of a Tory Government in Westminster, or a SNP led Government in Scotland, the odds will not be on your side.
(Ask your friends in Girvan).


As far as LIT is concerned, it’s not yet over until the fat lady sings.


117

Shredder,

25/02/2009 17:18:26
148. I'm glad that the multi moniker trolling of the Spook in Leith has finally been exposed for the poison that it is!

#161 Bully: but look at the popularity of soft right policies in Scotland (CT freeze, anyone!) and try telling me that there'll be a mass reaction against Tory rule if they get back in. They'll be seen as a welcome break from Labour (much like their tartan counterparts).
118

Time to Show Courage,

25/02/2009 17:21:59
#143 sm753
"Now, come here, Nat morons - time for a poke from the pointy stick again..."

You should keep that thing tucked away. If you go sticking it through bars, you may get it bitten off. And since it appears to be where your brain is, you should beware.

119

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 17:25:11
Well done to the SNP,for another stepping stone on the road to Independence.Anything that is one further step away from the War Criminals Party and this dreadful Union has to be a good thing.
Also well done to the marvellous Alex Salmond for promoting Scotland in the USA.
120

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

25/02/2009 17:25:48
#132 - rev s campbell - "#92 "Could all Nats please come closer to the bars so I can poke them with my pointy stick."

You'll never poke anyone with a wee thing like that, dear."

I predict AM2/SM753 about turning and storming off in a how very dare you momment like his sidkick Rami man bag, not for what he carries ya know.......
121

Publius,

London 25/02/2009 17:29:28
#161 bully wee alba

"Let us wait and see how the Scottish electorate vote in the referendum."
But there won't be a referendum in 2010!

"As far as LIT is concerned, it’s not yet over until the fat lady sings"
But the fat gentleman has given up shouting about LIT!



122

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/02/2009 17:36:33
61 Snp hip

With every post you re-affirm your stupidity.
123

,

25/02/2009 17:38:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
124

TWC,

25/02/2009 17:39:27
Even when their own party does a welcome U turn the Labour Trolls keep on Snarling.
This is the first positive thing Scottissh Labour have done in 10 years. The real question is will Elmer Fudd stand up for the real Financial control Scotland needs?
125

,

25/02/2009 17:42:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

RufusT-Firefly,

25/02/2009 17:48:47
172 DemocraticScot,Europe 25/02/2009 17:42:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEChP8HKwqE&NR=1

Listen to this and ask yourself Alex Salmond or Gordon Brown talking economics which makes you feel confident??
===================================================

Yes its a good link.

Clearly Brown wins by a country mile.
127

TWC,

25/02/2009 17:51:55
173 RufusT-Firefly,


When you cannot face facts you ruin all your other arguements. Brown is useless and he is killing the Labour movement. Only fighting it's own corner can Scottish labour fight back against the big Steak Pie.
128

Truely English,

25/02/2009 17:52:40
I just cannot see the Scottish people wanting an independent country, as they are so deeply involved in everything British, from economic activity to British culture and the arts in England as well as Scotland.

It would be a tradegy to think that Scottish writers and artists would lose their biggest market by being cut off from the rest of the country. Also what would happen to all the family ties that exist between the two parts of Britain.

I just cannot see this happening and hope it never does.
129

,

25/02/2009 17:54:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
130

Gargamel,

25/02/2009 17:57:06
#149 Saruman: "#145: I think the Spook in Leith (under various of his monikers) was responsible for the demise of the Salmond/US forum."

I hope that Spook in Leith was finished off good and proper: his monikers tend to have more sequels than Freddie Krueger (wonder if he wears a battered trilby and appears in children's nightmares, LMAO)
131

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/02/2009 18:01:27
151 shredder

You really don't get it do you?
132

Time to Show Courage,

25/02/2009 18:02:12
#175 Truly English
"It would be a tradegy to think that Scottish writers and artists would lose their biggest market by being cut off from the rest of the country."

Why would becoming independent cut us off from the rest of the country? Does the UK only trade internally? Someone should tell the EU. They may have missed that fact. If you are going to attempt scaremongering, please have some better material to hand. You'll damage your reputation with drivel like this.
133

RufusT-Firefly,

25/02/2009 18:07:19
155 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 25/02/2009 16:48:14
Why is it the case that the proponents of the Unionist cause on these threads appears only to attract those of limited intellectual ability?
===================================================

Oh dear, Bully Boy strikes again.

A double plural nonetheless.

Bully Boy the master of the English Language.

He spends all day correcting everybody else's mistakes, whilst all the time he should really be looking a bit closer to home.

He does quite well when one considers that English is clearly not his first language.
134

Shredder,

25/02/2009 18:08:35
#164 Wind: "Quebec is a province of Canada.

Scotland is a nation in a union with another nation.

Apple v pear."

Keep telling yourself that! I'm confident that most objective observers would say that the difference is apparent only to Nats!
135

Earman,

Paphos 25/02/2009 18:11:51
Nothing, but nothing, angers and frustrates the nae-sayers and "naw, we canny" merchants like a Government with nothing other than the interests of those it serves at heart. There is simply no substitute for an administration whose only "masters" are those who live in - or call - Scotland "home". From now on there is no place for those who attempt to serve two "masters". Their time has passed. Let's all move forward.
136

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 18:13:11
I think Truely English (see 175) is a wee bit of a wind-up merchant, but what he states is probably what the English and north british unionists think
137

Gargamel,

25/02/2009 18:28:54
The Spook in Leith's multi moniker trolling is exposed on the Salmond/US thread:

SNP hypocrisy,
25/02/2009 13:52:15
244. Unlike you I don't need several ID's to debate on here.

Run along democrat/spook/astonished/Arfur/Moclana/Number 6 or whatever other ID's you are logging in as.

Most comical was when you forgot who you were logged in as and testing testing as your Number 6 to see who you were at that point.

It's all the same guy people. Unless you keep reporting the likes of spook and his other ID's we won't have these boards cleaned up. If the moderator looks at the IP addresses, he'll see the same person every time. I strongly believe it is someone who is not even Scottish.

138

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 18:35:44
188. To expect the moderators to crosscheck every IP address with possible multiple usernames you will have to expect moderation before any post is published
139

Nikostratos,,

25/02/2009 18:37:13
Are the snp 'LYING' now or were they 'LYING' in their manifesto

http://www.snp.org/node/13534

the snp manifesto

These are some of the best reasons for independence and why the SNP trust the people of
Scotland to decide on independence in a referendum.


• Publication of a White Paper detailing the concept of Scottish independence in the modern
world as part of preparations for offering Scots the opportunity to decide on independence
in a referendum, with a likely date of 2010


John Swinney, the finance secretary, said he was willing to consider a watered-down form of independence, so-called "devolution max", as a stepping stone to full independence.




The snp said

"We remain open to others formulating an alternative proposition as to where we move to as a country."
140

Walter Ego,

Durness 25/02/2009 18:49:19
How about the power to make £500 million efficiency savings, Eck?
141

Brian M,

Edinburgh 25/02/2009 18:49:47
190. more like the unionists are trying to delay the inevitable
142

Hugh Roscombe,

25/02/2009 18:57:25
Too many new monikers. What's the point?
143

Nikostratos,,

25/02/2009 19:04:43

There should be one question

agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

Unless of course the snp admits it has no chance of winning..in which case why have a referendum........Asking for more devolved powers does not need or require any referendum

144

Hugh Roscombe,

25/02/2009 19:07:30
194

Yo Niko. Come and join the party.
145

Hugh Roscombe,

25/02/2009 19:08:18
I only ever post as Hugh Roscombe.....
146

Earman,

Paphos 25/02/2009 19:11:02
Please please please, could anyone of the unionist persuasion on this board explain to me exactly why they believe that a leader/a government/a collection of politicians who have little - if, indeed, any - choice other than to follow instructions from/take account of/answer to anybody other than the people of Scotland are better suited to safeguard the interests of said people than are the present Scottish Government? They may, and will, make mistakes, but I can honestly say that I would trust their motivations a country mile farther than I would trust the mealy-mouthed and historically proven maligners of this Nation. I say again, begone! Your time - painfully protracted - has gone. Move away and allow positivity and maturity to replace your naysaying and negativity.
147

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:18:13
188 Gragamel

As a matter of interest how long have you been posting on here?
148

Earman,

Paphos 25/02/2009 19:21:11
198
.....no, I thought not......
149

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:22:11
194 Nikostratos

Niko, old chum, conversely, if the unionist parties are so certain that they would win the referendum vote why don't they come out now and say to the SNP "Okay, we'll vote for the referendum next year, bring it on"?
150

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:24:33
202 sm753

Okay, I'm next. No, I'm not any of these -show me your proof that I am?
151

European Scot,

25/02/2009 19:27:51
190 Nikostratos

" Are the snp 'LYING' in their manifesto ...... "

It would appear that the SNP is opening up choices to try and satisfy a wide variety of opinions on the subject of the Referendum.
At least a choice is being offered, which is probably a strange concept to you, and quite alien within that Unionist World you inhabit Niko !
However the strengthening support for full Independence hasn't changed, that hasn't been watered down, and continues to climb.

194 Nikostratos

"There should be one question

agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

You don't seem to be prepared to offer any choices here.

"Unless of course the snp admits it has no chance of winning..in which case why have a referendum........Asking for more devolved powers does not need or require any referendum"

It's that Unionist smell of fear once more, stating that we don't need a Referendum.
What are Unionists so afraid of in having a Referendum, could it be the truth ?
152

European Scot,

25/02/2009 19:34:06
202 sm753

" The Nats are a bunch of incompetent, ignorant, lying, deceitful, nasty, borderline racist, idiots."

A very good evening to you too.
Your post yesterday under the 'Scots first as Salmond meets Clinton' thread, at no.130, was certainly your best ever.

Today, unfortunately, you've spoiled things by including words.
153

Nikostratos,,

25/02/2009 19:41:06
#205


Given the snp stand not a scintilla of smidgen of small(very incy wincy) chance of winning..I can't see why they don't agree to a referendum.

The snp have more or less Given up on Independence in this political cycle accepting the fact only a lunatic is going to vote 'YES'
I'm afraid the stormy economic sea's we are in have sunk The independence ship or should i say leaky coracle.
154

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:54:11
207 Nikostratos

Imagine Prudence Brown, the captain of the UK Economy, letting his boat drift into "stormy economic seas". Even a "lunatic" can work that out! Perhaps the IMF or the Middle East will hear his "mayday". Is Mayday not a special day in the Labour calendar?
155

Earman,

Paphos 25/02/2009 19:54:13
202
....er, nope, I thought not.
156

Boab1,

25/02/2009 19:55:32
Either way it is a step in the right direction. As each inch is conceded it makes independence more and more likely. I'd prefer independence now, but if it must be a gradual process then that's ok with me. The outcome will be the same.

I wonder why Labour's change of mind is not heralded in a 'massive u-turn' headline. They've obviously been told by London it's ok to say this. It's the only way the article can state that greater fiscal powers are 'inevitable'.
157

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:56:11
209 The Spook

He seems to think that he knows a lot about you for some-one who only posts, under that name, now and then.
158

brownlie,

25/02/2009 19:59:06
202 sm753

Sorry, you've had long enough. Your silence speaks for itself. An oxymoron seems strangely appropriate.

159

,

25/02/2009 20:00:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
160

Nikostratos,,

25/02/2009 20:04:11
#210 brownlie

Well if Capn Alex is the man to sail us off to the sea of freedom on the good ship Independence. Then let him and his snp lackeys keep to a pure Independence referendum. And no backtracking with Devolution max..min whichever one the Unionists win
161

Earman,

Paphos 25/02/2009 20:19:40
218
Niko Niko! What ever happened to acting in the Scottish people's best interests? Why on Earth should Mr Salmond "keep to a pure independence referendum"? You're mistaking him for a politician who has to answer to some distant "masters" and look over his shoulder all the time.

He is not. He is the First Minister of a Government whose SOLE interest is the wellbeing of the Scottish People. As such, I, for one, would expect from him pragmatism, realism and honesty, which, in stark contrast to those whose strings are pulled from afar, he has in spades, much to the chagrin of you and those who persist in thinking like you. Alex Salmond will do his level best to deliver to the people of this Nation the very best deal he can broker. I, like he, hopes that this will be full independence, but, in the interim, we will accept what can realistically be wrested from the "powers that be", with a view to the long term.

Niko, you and I may not live to see it, but this Nation will be independent again, and stand or fall by it. This is as sure as day follows night. It is simply the way of things.
162

European Scot,

25/02/2009 20:37:09
207 Nikostratos

" The snp have more or less Given up on Independence in this political cycle accepting the fact only a lunatic is going to vote 'YES' "

Having watched Salmond's recent speech at Georgetown University, it didn't seem to indicate any signs that he had 'more or less given up on Independence', quite the contrary, it was obviously the dominant feature.
Witness the outcries by Unionist politicians about his supposed abuse of his position for having done so.
Alex did Scotland's Independence cause a great deal of good in Washington DC, and has clearly upset his political opponents.
The only 'lunatics' are the ones on the beach hoping to hold the rising tide back, usually referred to as Unionists, amongst other things.
163

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 20:42:52
England have long had a tradition of a body of men who would assist and advise the King on important matters. Under the Anglo-Saxon Kings, there was an advisory council, the Witenagemot ("meeting of wise men"). As part of the Norman Conquest of England, the new King, William I, did away with the Witenagemot, replacing it with a Curia Regis ("King's Council"). Membership of the Curia was largely restricted to the tenants in chief, the few nobles who "rented" great estates directly from the King, along with certain senior ecclesiastics.

Not a lot has changed since then, has it?
164

brownlie,

25/02/2009 20:50:07
Nikostratos,

Greetings, Niko, great poem on your blog - was unable to comment but very appropriate. Well done!
Catch you later.
165

Daveunderwater,

Bran Seer Black Isle 25/02/2009 21:04:30
As we often parrot on this blog, it must be remembered that Scotland and Wales have democratic devolved governing bodies, and that England is ruled by the UK Parliament, headed by Gordon Brown, a man who represents a Scottish constituency and is therefore unaccountable to his constituents for around 75% of legislation his government passes - as they have their own parliament.

Aided and abetted by his Scottish Raj and MPs supposedly representing English constituencies, who spurn any recognition of England as a nation, Gordon Brown makes a mockery of democratic representation in England - and if you speak up, he and his cohorts are likely to accuse you of racism.

Whatever your background, WAKE UP to the abuse you are suffering as a citizen of England and the lies that are being spun, the smoke and mirrors employed by the UK Government and the Opposition parties, to keep intact the "UK", which now works against every man, woman and child resident in England. England is being broken up, regionalised out of existence - and we, the electorate across England, are the losers.

http://englandparliament.blogspot.com/

Do I detect a subtle shift in the cosmos?

A nebula is swallowed by a distant Black Hole

A grain of sand falls in an hour glass,

Chaos reigns as a brave Scotsman speaks truth

Bran Seer foresaw the Channel Tunnel when man can walk from England to France, Scotland would be a nation free once more

The grain of sand falls and joins the grains in life's great hour glass, 300 years have passed

Will Gordon Brown be voted, "Scot of the Year"? 2009

We don't need the Bran Seer to answer that...



166

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 21:21:43
Published Date: 10 February 2009
By Gail Milne
An inquiry into the missing Glenrothes by-election registers has been launched amidst cries of 'conspiracy' drowning comment boards on websites.

Any news on the enquiry?
167

Daveunderwater,

25/02/2009 23:41:58
Sure, it was Barack Obama's big night, but before the president arrived on the Hill, members and staffers were all aflutter over another special guest—actor Sean Connery. Connery was in town yesterday, along with Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond, to cheer the formation of the Senate Friends of Scotland Caucus. So what's this caucus all about? "Golfing, drinking, eating, and world peace—in that order," Sen. Lindsey Graham told Whispers. Graham waited patiently in line with many other members of Congress to snap a picture with the Hollywood legend, who gave only brief remarks. While in line, he told us his favorite Connery flick was The Untouchables . "I like that, and I like the James Bond movies, but it would be boring to say that," he explained.
168

Sam the Man the snp Fear Most,

25/02/2009 23:46:00
poppycock!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.