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No case for Holyrood to lose powers – devolution review chief

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Published Date: 26 April 2008
SIR Kenneth Calman, who will head the Scottish Constitutional Commission, last night said he did not believe there was a case for powers to be transferred back to Westminster from Holyrood.

Sir Kenneth, the Chancellor of Glasgow University, was speaking exclusively to The Scotsman ahead of the 15-member commission's first meeting at the Scottish Parliament on Monday.

He also said he believed that a transfer of control over areas such as broadcasting, control of Scotland's seas, firearms legislation and drug abuse laws, as well as economic powers, to Holyrood should be considered.

Sir Kenneth said: "We have a clear remit voted for by a large majority of MSPs. That is that we secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.

"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom.

"I have lived in London and in the north-east of England and I never felt like a foreigner, as I hope English people do not feel like foreigners in Scotland."

Sir Kenneth said he was working on the "gut feeling" that devolution and the Scottish Parliament had been a success, but "we have to quantify that and provide evidence".

And he said that he saw "no case for powers being taken away from Scotland", adding: "There are areas, such as broadcasting, firearms legislation, drug-abuse laws and marine legislation (where] we should consider (giving control to the Scottish Parliament].

"We have to provide detailed evidence and reasons to change the status quo. There may be other areas we need to explore."

The academic said that questions over tax-raising powers and oil revenues would be "the most complex" and revealed that, for these areas, he intends to work with "a group of specialists".

Sir Kenneth also dismissed the SNP's claims that the commission would not engage with members of the public, unlike their "national conversation".

He said: "These are not rival processes. I will be using the national conversation, especially its papers on devolution.

"I hope the Scottish Government will co-operate with us.

"We will have our own website and we will go round the country and encourage groups to write to us with their observations.

"It will not be an expensive commission, but we will do what we can to engage Scotland. We will also regularly publish papers on which people can comment."

LOOKING AT SCOTLAND IN THE UK

THE Scottish Constitutional Commission will be made up of 15 members, including academics, politicians from the three main unionist parties, community group representatives and faith representatives.

It has been set up to look at Scotland's place within the UK ten years on from devolution, following an initiative from Labour's Scottish leader Wendy Alexander, supported by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.

It will publish an interim report by the end of this year with a final report to go to Holyrood and Westminster by next spring.

Sir Kenneth Calman, the chairman of the commission, has promised that regular discussion papers and direction papers will be produced along the way.

Alongside this is the SNP's rival National Conversation which is also asking people about more powers for Scotland and, unlike the commission, is looking at the case for independence.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 April 2008 11:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 00:03:26
Salmond has disgraced himself and Scotland once more.
2

Sanny,

26/04/2008 00:50:18
I note the three Unionist parties are included on this commission. If they are honest then they would admit that this commission has only come into being BECAUSE of the SNP success at the polls and the current demand by 40+% of the population. And yet the SNP are not members of this commission? WHY???

I suspect that this commission will throw us a few scraps, in the hope this will satisfy us and the independence issue will be quiet for a few more years, whilst Westminster continues to rob us of our resources. We can be certain that Westminster will not let go until our resources are all but gone and they perceive us as a potential liability.

Let us not be fooled by this commission and be prepared to fight for what is rightfully ours. For the three hundred years that we have been saddled with this London Centric Government. This is not only the weakest government we’ve had in Westminster but also the weakest opposition; we must take full advantage of this weakness and seize our independence!

As for the congenital idiot Alfred perhaps he should burn a few more scones. Alfred if you are incapable, as your previous post have clearly shown, of constructing a coherent argument or simple comment then stay silent.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 00:53:08
4 Sanny

I thought the poll showing 41% was a poll of 997 people.

Why are you claiming it is 41% of the population now, the poll was not a sample of 5,000,000.

I now it's a lovely fantasy for you, but I do not want to have a repeat of yesterday when SNP voters were posting links to beast club.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

26/04/2008 01:08:06
#1 Alfie

Are you the full shilling??
Alex Salmond's name isn't mentioned once in the above article. You must be one of the cyber idiots Lard Foolkes was wittering on about.

5

,

26/04/2008 01:42:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/04/2008 02:06:26
The best that can be hoped for is that this commission will deliver the 3rd option in the referendum. Since it has chosen as its remit to exclude Independance as an area of enquiry.

Once it has conculed its work, the Scottish people must be given the choice between Status Quo, Devolution 2 and outright Independence.

We will have to see if our elected repesentatives will trust us with deciding on changes to the constitutional make up or will they once again institute changes without consulting the people as they did with the Lisbon Treaty.
7

FrancesP,

26/04/2008 02:19:58
#4. "I thought the poll showing 41% was a poll of 997 people.

Why are you claiming it is 41% of the population now, the poll was not a sample of 5,000,000."

You're only one step away from the Highland Mighty-style logic that, because 41% of 997 amounts to only 409 people, and because those 409 people are only 0.008% of the Scottish population, the survey in fact constitutes conclusive proof that 99.992% vehemently oppose independence!

Back in the real world, most people understand the well-established fact that a properly-conducted survey of 1000 people will produce an accurate representation of the views of the whole population (within a 3% margin of error) nineteen times out of twenty.
8

,

26/04/2008 02:42:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

,

26/04/2008 02:44:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 02:44:33
Should have read:

"No case for the Unionist devolution review chief"
11

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 02:54:51
The arrogance of the unionists is breathtaking. The "commission" and its "chief" have already ruled out what an overwhelming majority of Scots want. But he asks the Scottish Government will cooperate with them? What gall!
12

mesmiths,

fife 26/04/2008 03:09:37
Have to say I'm pleasently suprised by this. The westminster scotlab lot will absolutely hate it, which seems alot like a validation. I look forward to the findings and how they will parallel the national conversation.
13

­­Alfred E. Neuman­­,

26/04/2008 03:27:55
#6 Jimmy the Pie,

Alfred E. Neuman is a Multi-Monikered Troll financed through the public purse as a "researcher" for said Lord Foulkes.

It is he who has spent most of the last three days Cloning Monikers (including his own) to post comments and links for the promotion of bestiality and far worse perversions up to and including Unionism.

He is seeking to destroy this forum and may well succeed.

If you wish to assist him in his noble mission here is his login and password.

madman@unionist.co.uk

highlandmighty

P.S. I got this via a FOI request.
14

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:48:07
Looks like Broon will be knifed in the back by Milliband in the next couple of months.

Des Browne, Douglas Alexander, Alistair Darling, David Cairns and the rest of the London Controlled New Labour Party will be looking for new Jobs. Well they wont find any up here. I suggest they think about migrating back to their beloved London on a permanent basis.

25 SNP MP's and counting. Looks like we will hold the balance of power in Westminster. Not that doing that is a permanent condition as we will be calling in the United Nations to supervise the handover of powers to the Elected Scottish Government of the day. The 32 million quid of oil taxes a day that the Westminster take from our economy together with the taxes from general economy plus the inclusion of taxes from exclusive fishing of Scottish Waters by Scottish Trawlers only and the generation of duties from a Scottish Government supporting the Whisky Industry.

The OilP plant at Grangemouth should be a Nationalised resource that is contracted out to a private company at rates that make it attractive to Scots and the commercial sector should be first on a list of things to do for an Independant Government.

Everyday we are getting that bit closer to reclaiming our right to run our own affairs. People treated Alex Salmonds discussions about 25+ MP's in Westminster as a ridiculous thing that could not happen.

As we all know The Eck has proved to be a very astute Leader of Scots. His predictions and actions have been to the benefit of all Scots who are now walking that little bit taller, with the head just being that bit higher. The World will soon be our oyster, so lets make sure we give it everything we can. An Independant Scotland with an aggressive business outlook balanced with a left of centre Socially Democratic Government can accomplish anything it chooses. Its up to us to throw off the shackles that have stopped the Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC fa
15

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:50:52
Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC factory.

We could have at least asked the company if it would like lower Corporate Taxes. Would it have been an influence on keeping them in Scotland instead of going to Poland.
16

Willie Macleod,

Wick 26/04/2008 06:31:42
#14 How are you all the best Willie we will talk latter
17

john z,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 07:41:54
Dear Sir Kenneth Calman,

As a 'passionate scot', I am sure you will remember that we now have a democratically elected government. It sits in the Parliament in Holyrood, Edinburgh, Scotland.

Forgive me, but I do not recall you being elected to said parliament, or indeed being part of this democratically elected government.

I am sure you are enjoying you're little self dellusory power trip, but policy on Scottish Parliament powers is not yours to decide. Unless of course you choose to stand for election to the Scottish Parliament.

A small point, but an important one, don't you think, Kenneth??
18

McX,

26/04/2008 08:10:06
Nice to see Sir Kenneth advocating more powers, particularly with regard to broadcasting and marine legislation. Although I suspect some of our more dribbling unionists will still advocate that this must be reserved to Des Browne and David Cairns.

However, I take polite exception to the following statement:

"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom.

"I have lived in London and in the north-east of England and I never felt like a foreigner, as I hope English people do not feel like foreigners in Scotland."

Now according to the UK National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Sir Kenneth, belongs to group (1), Whereas say, for example a steelworker, let's call him Andy from Hamilton, belongs to group (5) Semi-routine and routine occupations.

Does Sir Kenneth really believe that he and Andy frae Hamilton will share exactly the same experiences of living in London and the north-east of England?

Sir Kenneth as a University Chancellor will have found his life down south in the rarefied air of academia, evenings of cheese and wine, bridge, theatre and dinner parties. Whereas yer man Andy from Hamilton will have sought his evening entertainment in the local pub. Are the people they meet exactly the same, with the same notions of nationality, identity and class? Don't think so...and this applies equally to a Shane from Essex and a Sir Nigel from Cambridge moving to Scotland. Shane and Andy are the more likely to feel like foreigners in the others country that Sirs Ken and Nigel. Division, hostility and 'feeling foreign' are class factors more than anything else.
19

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:14:21
Holyrood is an expensive talking shop full of failed 3rd rate politicians.
Many of which cant even speak English.
God forbid they are given anymore powers.
Christina Macelvey on newsnight this week being a prime example. What am embarrassment.
20

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:17:08
I just heard on the news that Nicola Sturgeon has bitten 3 people.
21

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:20:54
#23

Shane from Essex?

Andy from Hamilton?

Please get some therapy before its too late.
22

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:25:44
Is Alex Salmond still being paid as a Westminster MP?

I wonder how many times he has been down there in the last year.

If he is taking a salary for that then its tantamount to fraud.
23

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/04/2008 08:29:30
I have lived in Scotland,England and Finland.I have a Finnish wife and we have 3 daughters who live in 3 different countries (Scotland,Holland and Finland).My half brother lives in London and my couson who lives in Paris has a french wife.We regard independence as the norm.I regard myself as Scottish and European.Actually I am an internationalist who wants independence for Scotland.Professor Calman needs to factor into his analysis that, these days, that while Scots want to retain the social relationship with England and Wales, and Ireland,they also understand that Europe is larger than the British Isles.

Independance will enable Scotland to have social relationships with many additional European countries.It will also provide opportunities to grow the economy faster.This opportunity is now being recognised by a growing number of economists and business people.I'm not against what Professor Calman is proposing,but only see it as a step in the right direction.Certainly we do need to test the water and include full independance as an option,but I think that the unionist parties are not yet mature enough to understand why.

24

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:38:08
10 Frances P-leaving aside the eternal battle and just focusing on polls/statistics I recall the wonderful headline the year Truman was elected in the USA-Dewey Wins! A sample of 1000 people is in my view too small a number to be able to guage whether it is accurate or no. In the heated passion of the Independence debate kitchen, a small sample can be easily skewed by robust canvassing! No accurate conclusions can be derived from one poll-esp a small one. Having said that one can discern a trend to the SNP and (possibly) Independence but growing SNP support MAY reflect a backlash against Labour as a large contributing factor as well as satisfaction with the way the SNP are handling government in SCOTLAND>
25

McX,

26/04/2008 08:41:41
#26 As you've obviously attempted remediation of a mental health problem, I'll defer to your superior knowledge on the subject pausing only to ask whether you underwent electric shock therapy, animal assisted therapy, Pharmacotherapy or as is most likely Playing-with-your-own-poo therapy?

#28 Suomi, first time correspondent, long time reader. you hit the nail on the head there feller, the unionist parties, with perhaps the bewildering exception of Bella G are not mature enough to udestand.
26

Talorthane,

26/04/2008 08:43:18
Is this devolution review not in breach of both human rights legislation and Parliamentary standards on the use of public funds for party political purposes?


Firstly, this review, as it is funded from the budgets from both the Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament, must surely be classed as a public service or public body.

As it is funded by general taxation then it is paid for by your tax, my tax and everyone else's, regardless of their political persuasion.

The purpose of the review is to determine the future constitutional arrangements of Scotland. However, they have made it clear that they exclude the views of anyone who holds a particular view on that very issue; i.e. independence. I would certainly like to participate in this review, in order to advocate my own preference, but because my view is that Scotland should be independent then I am automatically prevented from doing so, or will have my views ignored.

In pursuing it's main aim the review will discriminate against those with a particular belief or political view; that Scotland's best constitutional future is independence. This seems to be contrary to human rights legislation.


Secondly, the funds are being drawn from both Holyrood and Westminster. As I understand it, these funds are prohibited from party political use. While the review is clearly not set up to serve the interests of any single party, everyone acknowledges that it has been set up to undermine a particular political party; i.e. the SNP. Surely, the use of funds to mobilise other parties against another, individual party is just as party political as a single party using it for their own ends.

If either of these arguments are valid, then surely the parties involved should have to pay for this review from their own budgets, instead of at the public's expense.

And if this is the case, surely any expenditure to date (if claimed) would be illegal.
27

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:43:57
Also further to my post at 29 I would comment on the headline"No sh*t Sherlock"! No matter where one sits politically it is clear that there is no support for a return to centralism in UK politics-Labour to blame/thank depending on wher u sit! Also the debate must be all embracing-independent reviews/commisions-whether Nat or Uni are a waste of time-all Scots TOGETHER need to debate this one. As a Unionist I think it is in our interest not to create more them/us politics.
28

pehman,

sussex 26/04/2008 08:44:33
So it's finally hit redfaced wendy that handing back powers to w/minster, would be be handing back to tory control
29

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:49:13
25 Rule Britannia-:)
30

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:49:19
25 Rule Britannia-:)
31

GM,

26/04/2008 08:51:28
@1 and @16

Maybe its too early in the morning for me, but could you reconcile your posts at 1 and 16 please?

(or is it the case (***again***) that you forgot to change your login name before hitting the 'post comment' button just like Highland Mighty did a few weeks back when he caught himself out using different monikers?)
32

Gordon lying traitor scum,

26/04/2008 08:51:45
Outspoken Arizona Senator Questions 9/11 Official Version Of Events

State Sen. Karen Johnson, R-Mesa, has come under fierce criticism for going on record with her doubts over the government's version of events surrounding the 9/11 attacks. Following a vote in the Senate Appropriations Committee on Arizona's 9/11 Memorial, Johnson told Capitol reporters "There are many of us that believe there's been a cover-up."
33

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:00:40
I wonder what Shane from Essex would make of this all.
Maybe Mr X can tell us.

I wonder if he was in the sample of 1000 people. Maybe even Andy Hamilton.

I bet Mr X has loads of friends. Albeit imaginary ones.
34

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 09:01:36
36 GM

A harcore SNP nutty campaigner is pretending to be me by copying my username. I don't know how they do it, but it's hardly playing fair.
35

Terrier2,

26/04/2008 09:02:08
18 A Better Way,Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:50:52
Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC factory.

We could have at least asked the company if it would like lower Corporate Taxes. Would it have been an influence on keeping them in Scotland instead of going to Poland.


Of course corporation tax should come down - but the French government who are about to take over presidency of the EU are already proposing a common corporation tax rate across the whole of the EU. Under their 'Social Model' this can only mean them going up. Looks like 'Independent' Scotland will not be so independent afterall.



36

brownlie,

26/04/2008 09:04:12
24 Rule

Awesome post and a sensational and sensitive contribution to our noble unionist cause.

A word to the wise, however. If we are to claim that some MSPs cannot speak English we should not use phrases like "some of which cant speak English" and "What am embarrassment". Cant is what we unionists do best and can't is what we tell the independent movement.
37

Senga Jean,

26/04/2008 09:04:36
#40 I have outed you as editor of MAD magazine. Very appropriate.
38

Senga Jean,

26/04/2008 09:06:34
#41 YOU HAVE MADE THE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE. The real powers to solve these problems have been retained in LONDON.
39

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:06:39
#38 why should we waste money on an independence referendum?
The task is simple.
The SNP is going to win so many seats that they will have Westminster "dancing to a Scottish jig" (hilarious I know).
Once that happens, Toad of Toadhall will be able to have any referendum he wants.
40

Ken S.,

Reading 26/04/2008 09:07:45
Is it not rather odd that the chairman of a review commission has already taken a particular stance even before the commission's first meeting? It rather tarnishes the perceived objectivity of such a body in examining a range of options.
41

brownlie,

26/04/2008 09:08:28
40 Alfred E.

As a fellow unionist you have my sympathy. It is hardly fair. It is a big improvement but, as you say, it is hardly fair.
42

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:09:09
40 Alf-on that subject whilst I admit to being older and thus less computer able, I also would have thought that the Scotsman moderator could end this kind of abuse by allowing only one of each name and by barring the fakeys whose only intent is to confuse the debate and cause trouble. I'm all for allowing any views-even the most extreme, but this adolescent nonsense serves no good purpose
43

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 09:09:42
The United Kingdom is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name.

Like archaeopteryx, the dodo, beaver skin top hats, and naval reviews at Spithead, the 20th Century centralised British State is Long Gone With The Wind.

Devolved Government in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is now the status quo.

Any future attempt by Westminster, for whatever reason, real or imagined, to amend or abolish Devolution would have to be taken on a tripartite basis? It is highly unlikely that politicians or voters in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales would seek to return to a centralised British State, and any attempt to do so can only have one inevitable outcome, especially in the case of Scotland's future within this unitary state!
44

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:10:19
#42 I make these postings from my mobile. Because of T9, it sometimes formulates words I did not mean. Also with the screen being so small it is hard to spot errors.
45

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:15:16
43 Senga Jean-Hi SJ! From Mad mag wen I was a yout-Sensational Feats-
Hiram P. Klotz once jumped into a bathtub of water from a thousnd feet tower!!!!

small print under"He was smashed to bits"!
46

McX,

26/04/2008 09:18:58
#39 Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves

It's not your fault Rule Britannia, it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. It's NOT your fault, it's not your fault, it's not YOUR fault.

There there old chap, let the tears flow. It's not your fault.
47

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:21:17
49-wise words and true! But centralism is not needed to create a nation with a strong sense ,paradoxically, of nationhood. The USA is the perfect example-individual states have wide ranging powers including on such major issues as the death penalty, yet there is an enormous cohesive patriotism focussed on the Union. The Federal kingdom of Great Britain and Northern ireland could and should be the same-a nation of 4 nations!
48

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:26:13
Did you see Salmond on the news last night lording it over the Grangemouth oil dispute?
He reeled off a list of countries that were helping out.
He could not, however, bring himself to say that one of them was England.
No. We cant be seen to be dependant on the country that Kenny MacAskill referred to as "The Great Satan".
49

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 09:42:17
31 Talorthane.

Interesting post. Some comments...

The 'Commision to review' passed a SP vote, so technically it is the will of the parliament from that angle. However this is definitely pa olitical and constitutional debate. It should be inclusive. What we have is a form of political racism.

Clearly the weight of unionist majority has been used to isolate the position of the minority government, their views ans the many people they represent and other politically like minded groups such as the Greens.

The UK Government is leading and backing this commision which is ignoring and criticising the views of our elected government. This is what concerns me most as it is clearly external political interference of represesntives of 92% of an electorate from outside this country.

For me it boils down to this: At a stretch we can say that the Scottish commision cleared a democratic Scottish vote. However they have no democartic right to go against and exclude the views of a large minority in a constitutional debate.

Imagine all the non catholic politicians in Scotland were to review closing down all catholic schools and catholics are exluded from the entire proceedings!
On the same lines they would be saying:
Ah but non catholic politicians won the vote - its democratic.
Ah but we dont belive Scotland should have religious schools.
Ah but the UK governent most of whom are anglican should lead the review for Scotlands best interests.

====
The review is therefore a unionist biased, narrow, conceited, morally bankrup, politically racist review runfrom a foreign Government aided by its puppet Scottish based politicians united to block constitutional change for this country.

Someone should be asking about the moral and legal aspects of such a process and hopefully the council of Europe are keeping a close eye on things.
50

McX,

26/04/2008 09:46:18
#54 It's not your fault.
51

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:50:11
57 Methalions-hi meths. Hope u are well-hows the Iberian weather-lovely day here!
55 Rulesbutnot..Hi rules. broadly on the same page as you but as you know the scientists say we are all one-H*mo sapiens so I would say nations/races are forged by geography and history-not blood or genes so much. I would like to think that we are "all britons"-tha from the heart.
Again tho,despite my comments re H*mo s.(moderator wont let ME use the "H" word for some obscure reason) clearly there is an observable difference between for example a pale,boney red headed Scot and a small brown skinned San Khoi(formally known as Bushmen) Maybe we were on an evolutionary path to the creation of different sub species as happens elsewhere in the animal kingdom but globalisation has put paid to that!
52

Edward,

26/04/2008 09:51:23
#54
Hate to p*ss on your parade, BUT
what exactly is England doing to help out in this industrial action??
53

Lulach mac Gille Coemgáin,

26/04/2008 10:00:22
Sheesh!

The Union now offers nothing but hinderence to Scotland!
54

European Scot,

26/04/2008 10:02:59
53 Geoff

Geoff, you are going down the same route so many Unionists use, comparing the States of the USA, with the country of Scotland.
Apples with apples please.
As for patriotism, I would admit to a feeling of patriotism, in the sense, love of country, but it's not for a Britain, or a United Kingdom, it's for Scotland.
A Federal Kingdom ?
For me the bottom line is Scotland at the UN, and at the European table.
Federal doesn't provide for either of these.
Regarding the EU, what is the point of having one 'Union' inside another Union ?
I would prefer to see Scotland speaking for itself, and dealing directly with other countries.
A Scotland in Europe may not be perfect, but it would be infinitely better than where it is right now.
55

,

26/04/2008 10:08:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:12:21
67-what Kenny ACTUALLY meant in his bumbling dyslescic way was the Saint Granta-again reffering to the South's charitable largesse toward the Heathens of the Wild North!
57

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:14:30
or the "Grate Santa" whose bag of goodies consists only of fireside accesories...
58

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:15:03
Some interesting points raised about the Scottish Constitutional Commission (which Gordon Brown prefers to call a Scottish Constitutional Review or Working Party)
Firstly it has been set up by a political party who are not in government
Secondly it ignores the ongoing ‘National Conversation’ which the elected Scottish Government set up, so that ALL the people can get involved about discussing their future.
Now as it is not part of a Scottish Government review, it can only draw on the backing of the UK Government, so as to draw on Tax payer’s money to fund it. BUT it will ignore a section of tax payers who want Independence.
Now I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that a commission, any commission, took evidence from ALL interested parties and would look at ALL points concerning the topic in hand, in this case the future of Scotland. In addition that the commission would only make comment, once it has finished its investigations and issued a report on its findings. But we have here the chairman of the Scottish Constitutional Commission, making comment on the hoof, like some kind of running commentary. Now if it was a ‘Working Party’, I would understand this. But what this tells us is that he is being briefed by Labour. Remember when this was set up, Labour stated that some powers may return to Westminster, But this has proven unpopular (to say the very least), so Labour’s spin doctors have no doubt advised that this stand should be changed. But why did Kenneth Calman state anything, why not wait until the ‘commission’ makes its conclusions?
Kenneth Calman then states: "We have a clear remit voted for by a large majority of MSPs. That is that we secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.
Sorry but the remit is NOT from the Scottish Government! and should not be taken as a remit from the Scottish people. It’s a very strange statement to make, but considering he is receiving his instruction from Westminster, we shouldn’t be surprised.
59

Mikey,

26/04/2008 10:15:13
Alfred E Neumann - MAD as a hatter!

To all the ignorant unionists, why are you not getting on to your unionista MPs? After all, energy is 'reserved.'

60

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 10:16:04
#64 You think so?

The Electoral Commission
Trevelyan House
30 Great Peter Street
London SW1P 2HW
Email: vmarkos@electoralcommission.org.uk

UK Government body, based in London: defend Scottish interests - hilarious on one hand and a sad endightment of 'British' democracy on the other.


Its like -
The political Change For Tibet Commission,
Great Mao street.
Peking.

61

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:17:07
He states he is a passionate Scot that is happy to live in the United Kingdom. But then again there are many many more Scots, who are equally passionate about Independence, who are happy to live in Scotland, or any country for that matter. He is simply repeating the Labour mantra, that an Independent Scotland would somehow be isolated and there would be restrictions imposed for anyone wanting to visit family in England (strange how it doesn’t prevent families in Northern Ireland visiting family in the Republic and vice versa!
62

McX,

26/04/2008 10:18:57
Anyone noticed the online poll on the front page of the Hootsman?

"A year after coming to power, is Alex Salmond doing a good job as First Minister? "

Has been stuck at 59% YES 41% NO since last night.

I find it hard to believe there has been no variation in the past twelve hours....
63

John PM,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 10:20:28
It was never going to fly that Westminster could openly take powers back, however as Wales have found out (when they rigged their electoral system to disallow candidates standing as both PR and FPTP) when an act is re-opened at Westminster, anything can happen to it.

I notice Mr Calman is already trying to copy the national conversation but I can't imagine anyone will involve themselves in this commission except die hard unionists because it has explicitly ruled out independence from the beginning.

It would be nice if this guy was independent but he isn't and once Brown gets his sticky fingers on the Scotland act I imagine he would be quite happy to change it to exclude rights over planning (to ensure nuclear power stations can be built), explicitly remove rights to introduce a local income tax and try and re-jig the electoral system so it is more biased towards Labour.

The one way to guarantee full powers for our parliament is to vote for independence. Whatever crumbs Mr Calman offers (the Lib Dems and Labour had already called for broadcasting powers in their original constitutional convention but this was rejected by the UK Government during the passage of the bill) they won't match up to the people living in Scotland, ruling Scotland.
64

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:21:14
"We will have our own website and we will go round the country and encourage groups to write to us with their observations"
NOT to be confused with the ORIGINAL http://www.constitutionalcommission.org/
65

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:22:22
66 European Scot-Morning ES! I was comparing the USA to the UK-not to Scotland. It is, I think, a good analogy and one which raises interesting questions on the nature of nationality and patriotism. I fully understand and respect your feelings re your Scottishness but I and many others have a pride in our Scottish roots and culture AND a sense of being British and feel that the two identities are perfectly compatible. The EU is MAYBE the way we shud be going but as i said before I can not drum up any heart for Brussels! But then again maybe we should be surpressing this patriotism thing and aim for a Earth identity free of the pains and dangers of love for country. Who was it that said that "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" forgot and merely curious-can u remember?
66

Cuthulan,

approx 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 10:30:17
SIR Kenneth Calman ,just in case you did not notice . The SNP are the biggest party in Scotland right now ,so how much taxpayers money did you waste coming up with this insight .DÓH?

#1 Alfred
Alfred E. Neuman has disgraced himself and Scotland once more.
#28 Suomi
Well said and I totally agree. If you are anywhere near Amsterdam I will meet you for a beer ;-) and I'll bring my Finnish friend.

A question to the unionist supporters on this sight.
Are you a Unionist for idealogical or economical reasons?
If for "economical reasons" then its has been shown to be b*ll*cks. Working in the Financial sector I can tell you I do not know 1 BA (business Analyst) that thinks Scotland would loose if it became independent. This has aslo been shown in the Herald's "Scotching the Myth" article.
If its for "idealogical reasons" please explain why most Unionists are ANTI European UNION? Surely if Scotland being aprt of the UK is giving us more clout on the world stage ,then if we join the EU we would have even more!?!? Your ideaology seems to be, give your soverigty to england but england will never give its soverignty to europe .It seems your are colonialists not unionists ,or Quisilings I would say.
If your unionist arguements are VALID ,you would be able to explain to the Dutch how stupid they are for not giving up thier soverignty to a German parliment ,or explain to Suomi and the Finnish why they should give up thier soverignty and join the Russian economy. See how far that boat floats mate ,I DARE YOU!!!!
Also explain why the Republic of Ireland is not trying to rejoin the UK? BTW Ireland,s GDP has just passed the UK's ,dispite AM2's prediction of Irelands economic ruin and the British economies strenght hahahahah. Also why are the Czech Republic and Slovakia not trying to rejoin thier economies?!?!!?

Also ,its a mute point be still a point. The declaration of Arbroath states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
"that the independence
67

Cuthulan,

approx 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 10:32:02

Also ,its a mute point be still a point. The declaration of Arbroath states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
"that the independence of Scotland was the prerogative of the Scots people, rather than the King of Scots"
The Act of Union was FORCED on us by bribes and threats of force to the The NOBLES not the PEOPLE
Robert Burns referred to this:

We were bought and sold for English Gold,
Sic a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.

Unionist supports where very much the minority.
Years later John Clerk of Penicuik, originally a leading Unionist, wrote in his memoirs that,

(Defoe) was a spy among us, but not known as such, otherwise the Mob of Edinburgh would pull him to pieces.

"spies, such as Daniel Defoe; his first reports were of vivid descriptions of violent demonstrations against the Union. "A Scots rabble is the worst of its kind," he reported, "for every Scot in favour there is 99 against".
Obvoiusly the PEOPLE did NOT agree with the Union!!!!

68

McX,

26/04/2008 10:39:36
#83 Ha ha, well done Mr Comma, Alfred is a Luton Scot, part of the Corby diaspora eh Alf...or is it Horsey?
69

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 10:43:27
Some absurd posts this morning. Examples:
#76 David McVicar compares Scotland in the UK to Tibet in China.
#74 Red Etin recites a nursery rhyme which threatens death to an Englishman.
#72 Edward nipicks at Calman and his commission. Edward well knows Calman (or anyone else) is free to say whatever he likes about about constitutions etc. By Edward's Alex Salmond is prejudging his own national conversation by coming out in favour of independence before he has heard the responses.
#60 David McVicar goes into an absurd rant against the UK government for asking Calman to look at a constitutional issue and makes some ludicrous statements about religion and education. [Incidentally David there are more Presbyterians than Anglicans in the cabinet, more Catholics than Anglicans and more atheists than Anglicans. Not that it matters except perhaps to you.)
#55 Rules etc writes of gene pools. A person's remote ancestry has nothing to do with his/her sense of national identity.
#23 McX introduces class war into the argument, apparently dismissing Calman because he is an educated academic with little understanding of manual workers. Apart from the fact that Calman headed up the Scottish and then the English NHS, which should have given him a very good understanding of the life chances of poorer people, not even McX could expect someone who is not educated to be appointed to this job.
# 31 Talorthane thinks the Calman review may breach the Human Rights Act. I hope that Talorthane is not as stupid as he/she seems.

Give up folks. It's the weekend. Go outside and enjoy yourselves. And stop writing cr.p.
70

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:48:56
84 Cuthulan-why are u Unionists-for economic or idealogicall reasons-in my case neither! For me it is a heart thing. Just a few points as well-you say Irelands GDP has just overtaken that of the UK(SCOTLAND INCLUDED)!!! If thats true then I will send yous a picture of me eating my hat!! Your analogy about Holland giving up their sovereignty to the German Parliament-this is a selective example. There are examples to support Unionism elsewhere-a notable and relatively recent one being Germany- Bavaria and Prussia DID give up sovereignty to the German Parliament! The constituent nations of the EU HAVE given up some sovereignty to the Euro Union.
Also most Unionists are NOT anti EU-where did u get that one from. All the major Unionist parties are on balance, pro EU.
71

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:51:56
89 Publius-nice one !
72

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 10:54:27
90. Geoff - get munching - Ireland's GDP per head over-took the UK some years ago...Irelands GDP per head is >125% of OECD average, the UK is 100% of OECD average.

Picture please!

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/53/47/39653689.pdf
73

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 10:55:08
72 Edward,

I wish we could get more legal light on this subject from the press, not going to happen unless someone like Paul Huchinson looks at it.

WHat legal basis is this 'review' working under. English law, Scottish Law?

The UK government AKAIK has nor signed up to many elements of the Human rights legislation...though it has signed up to the European : Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

See pdf here: http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fco.gov.uk%2Fresources%2Fen%2Fpdf%2Fpdf17%2Ffco_ref_ts42-98_frameminority&ei=ePkSSICSJ4nWnQPdifWUAg&usg=AFQjCNFt3WR8kSaf3XSZBONnJJDkh7NlNQ&sig2=FNHOWPwU6FXaWCOT92EG2w

It is pretty vague and here it is a question of open and inclusive debate, not the silencing of an entire national 'minority':
However article 7 states:
The Parties shall ensure respect for the right of every person belonging to a national
minority to freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of association, freedom of expression,
and freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

>>> Freedom of expression seems to have failed.


It is also interesting that unless the Review conducts it in such a way so as not to alienat Gealic speakers they could be in contravention.

This came into effect in 1998. It is mandatory that Scottish history is taught based on article 12:
ARTICLE 12
1. The Parties shall, where appropriate, take measures in the fields of education and
research to foster knowledge of the culture, history, language and religion of their national
minorities and of the majority.

Since Scottish history on the natioanl curriculum has only now been promised by the SNP, (it looks to this layman) , that the Labour / LIB DEM executive were clearly in contravention.

Read up on it folks!
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 10:56:32
90. We await your hat eating picture eagerly Geoff!

Ireland leads world for quality of life | World news | The GuardianIreland's GDP per person - a standard, comparative economic measure - overtook the UK's GDP several years ago: Ireland's is now $36790 (£19800) compared to ...
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/18/population.ireland - 58k -
75

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:02:41
More human rights violations by Labour in Scotland:
Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic,
Religious and Linguistic Minorities
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 47/135 of 18 December 1992

Article 4
4. States should, where appropriate, take measures in the field of education, in order to encourage knowledge of the history, traditions, language and culture of the minorities existing within their territory. Persons belonging to minorities should have adequate opportunities to gain knowledge of the society as a whole.

Pretty ambiguous though......

One thing is certain, at diplomatic levels the Council of Europe is keeping a close eye on undemocratic practices in the UK.
76

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 11:05:04
90. Come now Geoff - where we can we view your hat eating photo gallery?

"Ireland's GDP per person - a standard, comparative economic measure - overtook the UK's GDP several years ago: Ireland's is now $36,790 (£19,800) compared to $31,150 in the UK."

"Ireland is easily the best country in the world to inhabit, according to a quality of life survey which relegates the United Kingdom to a second-division ranking. The index of 111 states, produced by the Economist Intelligence Unit and released yesterday, combines data on incomes, health, unemployment, climate, political stability, job security, gender equality as well as what the magazine calls "freedom, family and community life".

Displayed on a notional scale of one to 10, rain-washed Ireland emerges with a gleaming top score of 8.33, well ahead of second-place Switzerland which manages 8.07. The UK languishes in 29th place on 6.92, narrowly in front of South Korea (6.88)
77

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:14:05
Publius, London,

It may have been beyond you but I was using the catholic schools example as an analogy. The fact that you dont seem to like distort it and try to put figures on it shows that you missed my point completely and that infact you only want to debate by deflection.

I just choose the Catholic example as it was easy to show a parallel. I could have said muslim schools or wee free churches or ANYTHING. Got it?

#76 David McVicar compares Scotland in the UK to Tibet in China.

No I didnt, I compared the address of a politcal body based in another country to that which it is supposed to represent and used China as a more than helpful example.
However, Tibet is an autonomous region of china, where its status is under constutional debate. Remind you of anything closer to home?
78

brownlie,

26/04/2008 11:15:10
89 Plubius

Great stuff

Refer to every-one that disagrees with your point of view as absurd and then post answers that are absurd. Well, it's worked for us unionists in the past and, hopefully, combined with pre-election bribes, will again.

Much better to speak plain English and tell the nasty nats that we know best and are not interested in their views on the future of Scotland.

As for 96 Rules I think it is an own goal to mention Burns in the context of the union as I'm sure that the nats will find plenty in Burns to nullify that connection.
79

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:19:05
#44. According to Hutton on the news this morning , the Forties pipe alone will cost £44 million per day when it shuts down. Do you think Scotland is being robbed?

'If the government spends money in the regions of the UK it is called subsidy. But if it pours it down the gullet of the cities and counties in south-east England it is called essential support of the infrastructure.'
Political Editor John Forsyth in the Scotsman.


Revealed: True oil wealth hidden to stop independence
By Douglas Fraser, Scottish Political Editor in the HeraldSeptember 12 2005

LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whitehall dossier 30 years ago of the powerful case for Scotland becoming independent with booming oil revenues, but the information was kept confidential by Harold Wilson's government to keep nationalism at bay.

The dossier, most of which was written by a leading government economist in 1974 and 1975, sets out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the same way as Switzerland.

It argued Scotland could quickly become one of Europe's strongest economies with "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses.

The balance-of-payments deficit that dogged Britain at the time would be "swamped" in Scotland by oil revenue and would "transform Scotland into a country with a substantial and chronic surplus".

The assessment demonstrates that the official Whitehall projections for oil tax revenue by 1980, six years after the document, were exceeded nearly 40 times over.

It shows officials advising ministers about how to "take the wind out of SNP sails", but they warned ministers to stop making any economic case against Scotland splitting from the UK, once oil revenues started flowing. The document refers to how the extent of the North Sea boom was being "disguised" by the Department of Trade and Industry. The dossier details how a split of England and Scotland and a separate Scottish currenc
80

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:19:51
It shows officials advising ministers about how to "take the wind out of SNP sails", but they warned ministers to stop making any economic case against Scotland splitting from the UK, once oil revenues started flowing. The document refers to how the extent of the North Sea boom was being "disguised" by the Department of Trade and Industry. The dossier details how a split of England and Scotland and a separate Scottish currency would force England into serious economic difficulties comparable to the 1930s slump, as it would have to import oil. It warned of an English backlash, and the possible use of force to ensure a share of the North Sea fields.

Released to the SNP under freedom of information legislation, it states that the scale of Scottish surpluses would be "embarrassing . . . and its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner". The SNP said it had cost Scotland £200bn.

The key part of the dossier was prepared when Edward Heath's Tory government was about to lose power in 1974. Much of it was written by Gavin McCrone, one of Scotland's leading economists, who was working for the then Scottish Office. The following year Ð with Labour concerned by the SNP surge in the two elections of 1974, using the slogan "it's Scotland's oil" Ð Dr McCrone's projections for independence were circulated to a tight circle of Labour ministers and officials throughout Whitehall. Willie Ross was Scottish secretary.
81

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:20:19
Dr McCrone argued that if Scotland were independent with its own currency, it could expect to see incomes rise from a figure then clearly below English levels, probably surpassing its southern neighbour, with sustained growth for at least a decade and an end to "stop-go" cycles.

However, industrial manufacturing, then the backbone of the Scottish economy, would find it hard to compete. The suggested answer was that Scotland should use its surpluses to lend heavily to England and its other European neighbours. With proper management, "this situation could last for a very long time into the future".

When the paper was written, the UK was one year into the European Economic Community, later to become the European Union, and Dr McCrone's analysis pointed out that an independent Scotland would have equal access to all its markets. Whereas Scotland without oil would be ignored by large EEC countries, oil would give it considerable bargaining clout.

Kenny MacAskill, SNP deputy Holyrood leader, claimed the dossier countered arguments used at the time that "Scotland's too wee, the oil would run out and that it's not our oil". He said: "A whole array of myths and lies have been exposed. This means that the Scottish Office and British government . . . knew the North Sea wasn't going to be dry as a bone by the 1980s, and that it would have transformed Scotland economically, socially and politically."

He argued Scotland had missed out on £200bn of revenue as a result of the secrecy of the 1970s. With oil prices at record highs and Treasury revenues from it soaring, the Lothian MSP added: "The North Sea is half full and not half empty, and oil is back on the Scottish political agenda."
82

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:22:06
86...

Ok I will send them an email, however I have similar things before and got standard pre written responses getting nowhere.­­

You can then complain, getting nowhere again.
What next, jump up and down?
83

,

26/04/2008 11:27:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:28:50
The present owners of Grangemouth are nothing more than cynical asset strippers engaged in industrial terrorism, that is how RATclyffe has risen to become one of the worlds richest men in a decade. Would this happen in an independent Scotland? Would Norway allow it's energy supply to be threatened by greedy ruthless asset strippers.

#48. The fakeys are generated by this paper as are the numpty unionist trolls who come on here and destroy the forum. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and the sales of the dead tree copy of this rag is dropping like a stone at the rate of 250 per month. Is it any wonder?
85

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 11:29:58
90. Geoff "you say Irelands GDP has just overtaken that of the UK(SCOTLAND INCLUDED)!!! If thats true then I will send yous a picture of me eating my hat!!"

Geoff, I do hope you are not going to be as un-gentlemanly and typically cyber-unionist as to renege on a clear pledge minutes after making it?

Ireland GDP per head ppp 2007 $45600
UK GDP per head ppp 2007 $35,000

86

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:33:05
102
A Voice From Scotland, coming back from a flight from Paris yesterday I picked up the wall street journal.

Front page: World wide Section:
The two-day strike at Grangemouth refinery, set to start Sunday, threatens to have a huge impact on Britain's oil and gas industry, cutting 700,000 barrels a day from U.K. output at a time when supply concerns are driving prices to records.

And it s available online today :

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120906045165842159.html?mod=hpp_europe_whats_news


The unionists try to play down the importance of Scotlands oil but it was, is, and will remain vital to the UKs economy. Uk government as we know are an iniquitous bunch of lying, cheating, robbing parasites.
87

brownlie,

26/04/2008 11:36:38
109 Ayrshire

Good morning - promises to eat hats is part of our manifesto and is not to be taken serious. I wish you nats would be sensible enough to cotton on to the fact that, in order to win an argument or an election we can say what we want without meaning it.
88

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:36:51
"The dossier details how a split of England and Scotland and a separate Scottish currency would force England into serious economic difficulties comparable to the 1930s slump, as it would have to import oil. It warned of an English backlash, and the possible use of force to ensure a share of the North Sea fields."



If RATclyffe fails to terrorise the Scot's into turning away from independence then England will use force to defend the Oil left in the North Sea. Don't believe me? Google Iraq.

We can expect anything from now on. RATclyffes bullying is just the beginning.

London has become desperate. Brown and his gang will soon be gone and then we will see their true colour's as Cameron's Brit Nats take over.
89

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 11:40:48
#110. Agreed David we are living in what I regard as the most dangerous times since WW2.
90

Socrates2,

26/04/2008 11:42:16
genie is out of the bottle now

calman may have lived in ireland and not felt like a foreigner but don'y wnat gov from london

isn't it touching how simple calman seems

if he was a norwegian who lived in stockholm how would he feel and what would that mean

simply put we exault a few within our number by the moniker "SIR" but his argument is no more sophisticated as a result
91

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 11:54:50
Ayrshire Scot-sorry to dissapoint you old friend-your man said"Irelands GDP has overtaken that of the UK" He did not say GDP per head! There is a big difference!!
I'm keeping my hat in the cupboard for now! As to living in Ireland-lovely country-loust weather. Winter in Africa-25 deg. C-Summer in dublins fair city-16 deg and p*ssing with rain!
92

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 12:01:26
115. Geoff, that is sophistry that would make even AM2 blush :-)

Have a grand weekend.
93

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 12:03:17
109 Ayrshire and111 brownlie- thought he might have MEANT GDP per head but he didnt SAy that and there is an enormous difference-Chinas GDP is much bigger than Irelands but GDP per head is much smaller! but if u would like me to organise a hat eating photo will do next week! :) God Save Ireland said the Heroes..!
94

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 12:08:11
116 Ayrshire scot-and you too old chap! Perhaps we will cross swords later..
95

,

26/04/2008 12:21:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 12:26:24
55

Then let me ask you would you advocate Scotland joining a Federation with the US or Russia or does our Federation have to be within the UK???
Are you a Federalist by principle or really just another unionist with a new angle to offer???
97

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 26/04/2008 12:32:43
That's torn it, Gordon and Wendy won't like the idea of their tame expert saying there is no need for Holyrood to give any powers back to Westminster when that was the whole idea in the first place!

This chairperson might not last all that long if he continues like this.

Great days.
98

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 12:33:00
89

And yet you cant give us a simply honest reason in support of the union.
99

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 12:37:52
121

No the whole setup is a farce what we are going to get is a full recommendation for devolution min.
A few scraps thrown our way from Westminsters table to keep the whinging jocks in line and only that because of the growing support for Independence.
If any of the other oppostion parties had won the election we wouldnt even be getting that.
100

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 12:39:22
119. Nice poster. Good to see Highland Mighty augmenting his incapacity benefits with the occasional bit of modelling work.
101

Edward,

26/04/2008 12:41:18
#96 Rulesbutnotrulers
I think you'll find that Robert Burns was very much against the Union with England. He was a staunch supporter of the American Independence and George Washington
And to state that 'majority of eligible Scots supported it then' is an interesting way of stating who supported the union. For 'eligible' read landed gentry and noblemen who were the only ones that could vote at the time. The Historic FACT is that there were larges scale riots in Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as other part of Scotland. The English had moved english regiments upto the border at Carlisle and Berwick on the eve of the Scottish Parliament vote as it was widely known that it would be unpopular. Some were also stationed in Edinburgh Castle!
So your take on riots and staioning english troops at th border was a sign that the peopl were all for the union is a rather twisted view on history
102

McX,

26/04/2008 12:41:41
#124 it's not Highland Mighty old fruit, he only requires the one teeny weeny pixel to cover his gnarly man stump.
103

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 12:44:14
126. LOL. True, but gravity has made an unwelcome and extended house call on his man-sack and left it unusually saggy - i suggest that the rest of the pixellation is masking his saggy scrotey not his stump.
104

Edward,

26/04/2008 12:44:59
#96 Rulesbutnotrulers
It should also be noted that even as recent as 1918, there was srtong feeling against the Union, which boiled up in roits in Glasgow following a strike. The British government were so concerned that they stationed English troops in Scotland, manning all ports and strategic buildings in Glasgow. Confined Scottish troops to barracks in Scotland and those that were returning from Germany and France, were held up, or made to march in order to delay there arrival in Scotland
105

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 12:50:30
#119 McX Wrong on almost all counts.
(1) English National Party website. I didn't know this site existed until I followed your links. I don't support the English National Party. (I'm a Scot. How could I?) I never heard of O'Connor until yesterday when I read in the paper that he had pulled out of the mayoral election due to lack of support and the fact that no-one had taken St George's day seriously. (He's wrong about this. Gordon Brown had the English flag flown over No 10, but Brown's hangups are definitely Scottish, not English.) More worrying than the ENP the BNP. These nasties may win 1 or 2 seats in the London Assembly but this has nothing to do with relations between English and Scots.
(2) I never drink warm beer. I rarely drink beer at all. I prefer a decent Malt - ideally from Skye - although I do quite like some Highland malts provided they haven't been aged in a wine cask and adulterated with sherry or sauternes or port or some such rubbish. Glenmorangie Original is brilliant - nearly all the other Glenmorangies are adulterated.
(3) I'm a Scot working in London, but I hardly ever meet any hostility, just some good natured ribbing about football and the poor performance of a government led by a Scot and made up of Scots.
(4) You're right about the weather here. I does look good outside - but I volunteered to work today. I was going to go home, but I cancelled because of the fuel strike.
106

McX,

26/04/2008 12:50:37
#127 Ewww! You may be right, I read in the toilets at Bothwell services that small children use his crinkly old Balzac as a skipping rope when they run out of washing line.

I hear that science has identified it as a problem unique to Unionists. Marvellous.
107

FrancesP,

26/04/2008 12:52:16
#29. Geoff - "just focusing on polls/statistics I recall the wonderful headline the year Truman was elected in the USA-Dewey Wins! A sample of 1000 people is in my view too small a number to be able to guage whether it is accurate or no. In the heated passion of the Independence debate kitchen, a small sample can be easily skewed by robust canvassing! No accurate conclusions can be derived from one poll-esp a small one..."

This is quite simply wrong. It may seem counter-intuitive (especially when you're looking at a poll where you don't like the numbers) but what I said in my post is entirely accurate - on nineteen occasions out of twenty, a properly-conducted poll of 1000 people will be accurate to within a 3% margin of error. 1000 is not a "small sample" at all - 200 or 300 would be too small to be meaningful.

However, the operative words here are "nineteen times out of twenty" and "properly-conducted". If the poling company's methodolgy is wrong, you'll get a systematic problem (as happened in the 1992 general election). But even with everything else being equal, by definition one poll out of twenty will be outside the 3% margin of error, ie. it'll be a rogue poll. So that's why the polls occasionally get it wrong, but the idea that you can rubbish every poll on the basis of "pah, only 1,000 people, who asked the other 4,999,000?" is a joke.
108

McX,

26/04/2008 12:58:00
#129 Publius, this is not a dating site. Although I live near your mother I am not a friend of Dorothy, so please stop telling me about your drinking preferences. ;)

I support English Independence, who am I to deny the English people their right to self determination or at least their own parliament?

http://www.thecep.org.uk/wordpress/blog/

Incidentally, "a government led by a Scot and made up of Scots." How many Scots in cabinet? I believe they are still in the minority, n'est pas?
109

brownlie,

26/04/2008 13:14:16
131 Frances

Rubbish - although your interpretation of the polls is 100% correct ( I polled 1012 people who said it was) we unionists rubbish any polls that do not give us a majority.

HM will be along in a minute to demolish any arguments with his 23% poll which he frequently quotes, along with his repeated reference to Alex Salmond's conservative (small c) estimate of 25% support.

Alex is a well know liar unless he says something that we believe helps the union in which case we quote him ad nauseam.
110

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 13:26:06
Been away shopping sorry for delay in response .
#90 Geoff
"There are examples to support Unionism elsewhere-a notable and relatively recent one being Germany- Bavaria and Prussia DID give up sovereignty to the German Parliament!"

RECENT YOU SAY ,Is this really your best arguement for unionism !!!!!
NOT a GOOD example ,here is what actually happened ,it was forced to do so ,does this sound familiar?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
"After the rise of Prussia to prominence Bavaria managed to preserve its independence by playing off the rivalries of Prussia and Austria, but defeat in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War compelled Bavaria to accept incorporation into the Prussian-dominated German Empire in 1871."
The more RELEVANT question is why TODAY does the Netherlands and Austria NOT join the German economy of thier own FREE WILL?? If your arguement for unionism is so strong it should also be valid for these countries. ITS NOT!!!!

#90 Geoff
"84 Cuthulan-why are u Unionists-for economic or idealogicall reasons-in my case neither! For me it is a heart thing."

So at least you acknowledge there is NO economic arguement and the colonialist idealogy is bankrupt as well. "Its a heart thing" is it ,Rule Britania and all that ,well its the 21st Century now, stop living in the past. Its a heart thing for the IRA and UDF and Al Quada etc I'm sure, but we are talking REALITY ,economic and idealogical!!

"Just a few points as well-you say Irelands GDP has just overtaken that of the UK(SCOTLAND INCLUDED)!!! "

I will let you off the hat eating as I was not totally clear. But with Ireland in the Eurozone ,Ireland is filled with American/Irish INVESTMENT as they protect themselves from the worthless dollar. btw Eurozone is now the biggest economic force on the planet since it hit 1.56 to the dollar.England is full of American DEBT which is getting more worthless everyday.

#85 Rules
"Robert Burns approved of the Union, even if he made a poetical point about a
111

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 13:28:36
#85 Rules
"Robert Burns approved of the Union, even if he made a poetical point about about the way it came about. Still, a majority of eligible Scots supported it then - and still do now!"

Absolute b*ll*cks!! Please send me a picture .
There have been many eye-witness accounts of what took place in Scotland when the act of Union was inacted . I quote the UNIONISTS . The best I could find was that they where outnumbered 3 to 1!!! Other quotes like the one I included was outnumbered 99 to 1.
112

JCA REID,

Annan 26/04/2008 14:16:20
As Mr. Blair stated on the 1997 hustings in Stirling re. the establishment of a Scottish Parliament "......it will have no powers greater than a Parish Council." Here's an example: on a BBC Scotland Eorpa programme talking about fishing this a senior Dutch representative clearly stated the Norway, a non EU member, had more influence on Brussels than Holland. One can add to this the recent effect that Scotland had on EU fishery talks. Half of the EU Fisheries are on fact Scottish! At the conference the 'Scottish' representative is left in a corridor watching the proceedings whilst the 'UK' representative was in the chamber & they stated they got a good deal for Scotland! Very similar to the Munich Crisis where Benes, the Czech Premier, is left sitting in a corridor whilst others discuss what is going to happen.
This is no Union but an "Anschluss" by another name. Daniel Defoe, the author, who was spying for the English at the time reported that for every 1 in favour of the Union I can easily find 99 against.
We now have the world's most expensive Parish Council.
113

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 14:17:43
Hello AM2
Just popped in to muddy the waters again I see. No proof of Burn's unionism to repudiate my Burn's quote?
And the riots that are well documented in Edinburgh and Glasgow ,the documented massive bribes to Scottish nobility ,the well documented threat of invasion and a massive english force mustered just for the occasion .Yes I am sure the Act of Union was very popular(sarcasim) . As I said my quotes came from the unionists of the day....and the best I could find was a 3 to 1 against the union amoungst the PEOPLE not the nobility which had no right to give Scotland's soverignty away!!
114

foxbat3000,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 14:23:42
#41

I work for an electronics subcontractor and lower corporation taxes will make no difference at this time. The problem is one of labour costs (too high) and the fact that the companies customers are no longer in Scotland. They are in Poland and China (Motorola). That is where they want the stuff built they have no interest in Scotland.

Best chance for Scottish manufacturing is to become a centre for stuff that due to export costs from China can only be cost effectively manufactured here.

We need to hang in there for the next 10-15 years retain skills and wait until the Chinese labour cost advantage evaporates.
115

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 14:27:06
141 Methalions faking me

I don't support labour. I am on the record countless times on here saying I hate them as much (sometimes a little more) than the Squalid National Party.

Dear oh deary me dear boy.

The SNP always invite Labour to the party because they are the only people on Earth who can make the SNP look marginally better. A margin of 1!

No accounting for Scotland's taste for either party.
116

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 14:34:54
145
"But pith and power ‘till my last hour
I’ll make this declaration.
We were bought and sold for English gold
Sic a parcel of rogues in a nation."-Robert Burns

We could swap quotes all day AM2;-)
117

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 14:39:29
#145 AM2
Its a heart thing now !! The last time I was online with you AM2 it was "always the economy" but that's been blown out the window .So now your tune has changed ?!?!The time I mention that its a heart thing and got ribbed for it by the unionists ,but now its a VALID point ...this stinks of hipocrasy and a complete lack of a decent arguement!!! As I said its the 21st Century ,stop living in the 19th
118

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 14:47:06
129 Publius,

Dear oh dear "don't support the English National Party. (I'm a Scot. How could I?)"

The SNP have many non Scottish supporters and even have two English MSPs. If you are on the register you can vote for who you want or is there some kind of ethnic checking for ENP votes?

"the poor performance of a government led by a Scot"

No argument there, but that government was essentially elected by resident English voters. The next one, if they win will be lead by David Cameron, an Englishman from a Scottish family and another of the BritScot establishment. Again it will be a government elected by the people of England. Again the policies will be very similar on War in Iraq, trident, foreign policy, special relationship etc.

Your statement betrays the lie in the whole British myth that we are somehow identical or equal. Gordon will fail because amongst his other failings his faux English accent hasn't prevented him from standing out like a Scottish sore thumb to an English electorate. Cameron looks and sounds English enough to pass.
119

Cuthulan,

amsterdam 26/04/2008 14:55:44
#150 AM2
I do not remember the "Scotching the myth" article being written by the SNP?
http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1804171.mostviewed.scotching_the_myth.php
I work for the Financial industry I work every day with the world's best Business Analysts from the Federal Reserve Bank, London Stock exchange ,JPMorgan , Standard and Poors , Moodys and Fitch and many more banks and trading houses . I design thier datafeed interfaces .
You still believe the economic b*ll*cks spouted by the Lab/Lib/Tories
WOW WOW and DOUBLE WOW!?!?!?!!?
But hey I've seen the results of your economic forecasts ....hahahahahahahaha
120

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 14:56:14
153 Methalions

You know fine well it was you faking me acknowledging I was your fake. You can tell how to spot them because you are the only person on here sad enough to check and continue to do that.

Oh deary, it's all a game of bluffs and double bluffs. I can tell it's you because its rather boring and personal scathing attacks that are too direct to wind anyone up.

The "third man" we shall call him, who is neither you nor me, but who fakes you amongst others is silly and so over the top that it is obviously a joke.

You aren't funny, so this is you.

The "third man" has made you angry in his day, I understand, but please stop being a psycho towards me for it.
121

brownlie,

26/04/2008 15:06:55
You see yon birkie ca'ed George Foulkes
Believes in law and order
He fights with grannies in the street
He's still a lord for a' that

Sorry, Rabbie
122

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 15:18:19
168 Methalions

Enjoy, you'll find their editorials more to your style. They HIGHLIGHT the IMPORTANT STUFF and UNDERLINE it.
123

john z,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 15:21:56
Are the southern English whingers who carp endlessly about England subsidising Scotland, paying attention to the effect of shutting the Forties field, in the North sea, just off the coast of SCOTLAND!

Hopefully, the Grangemouth (in Scotland) fiasco will help more Scottish voters understand the lies and deception they have been told about Scottish oil.

As I was growing up, I was told the oil in the North sea was either very little, very poor quality, or going to run out soon. It has now been revealed that I was lied to by politicians in England. The facts were in reality quite the opposite.

I do wish the people of Scotland would wake up to the way in which Westminster has lied and cheated them for at least thirty years.

Scotland was blessed with valuable oil reserves which have been running to Englands treasury for thirty years.

124

john z,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 15:25:55
Number #27

Regarding alex salmonds salary. I believe he donates his Westminster salary to a charitable fund.
125

Talorthane,

26/04/2008 15:30:54
#89 Pubilus

"# 31 Talorthane thinks the Calman review may breach the Human Rights Act. I hope that Talorthane is not as stupid as he/she seems."

My post may or may not be technically accurate, but surely it can only be a described as "stupid" if it is clearly and universally agreed to be flawed.

In case you didn't read beyond the first sentence or paragraph, the gist of the argument is that if this review is paid for by public funds then it should not discriminate against certain members of the public (or taxpayers) on the basis of any of the criteria covered by human rights legislation, including freedom of expression and political beliefs.

As you clearly suggest that you are much more intelligent, please tell me where this argument is flawed.
126

Talorthane,

26/04/2008 16:02:31
#174 Alfred

You'll need to explain that one.

What do you mean: "because of its source"?

There's no argument there at all.
127

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 16:54:18
134 Cuthulan-more to the point is there any move to seperate bavaria from germany?
Also you twist my words sir! I said for ME its a heart thing.I did NOT say there waere no other factors. There are many good economic and other arguments for and against the Union. Each side puts its own spin so the truth as always is elusive>
131 Frances P-thanks for your reply. I agree that a poll of one thousand PROPERLY conducted can be a reasonably accurate predictive tool. However a one off like this is still subject-by your admission to error and is much easier to gerrymander or manipulate than an electorate of say 50 000. I would rather look at a basket of pollsto discern a trend.
128

Alan B,

26/04/2008 17:45:12
Interesting statement Calmanas it puts an end to the silliness of Browns political games of threatening to remove powers from the sp.

Do not know why this commission cannot finalise their report by xmas it seem long enough.

It is also will be interesting to see if the unionist parties try to impose their solution without a referendum as they have all said they would do.

I do not have a problem with this commission as long as it genuinely devolves powers and is not a delaying tactic.

It seems to me transport, law and order (drugs, firearms, identity cards, 42 days detention), energy, broadcasting and political things like civil service and running elections and naming the titles of goverments should be devolved.

The most important area will be round finance. Any change, something both Wendy and the lib dems want will mean an end to the Barnett formula. Any change really should take into account that the tories will introduce a ban (correctly) on scottish mps voting on english matters.

How far will this go? The cleanest and easiest is fiscal autonomy. Anything short of this will probably cause it to be revisit afew yrs later.

The unionist really need to make sure this review is not a damp squib.

Personally i think the snp will be happy that if these powers can be passed to the scottish parliament. It will be difficult for brown to say no the the outcome of this review. As such if it reports next summer we should expect to see the powers passed over to the sp by the summer of 2010 (general election time).
129

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 17:46:09
This commission is daft. Either it should include all of Scotland, like the national conversation, or not happen. How can they have a conversation where they want to hear from everyone but already know which answers they don't want to hear. What is the point of calling this a constitutional commission - this is a devolution reform commission. None of the parties can agree on this as they all have their own interests at stake, Labour for example want to hang on to as many donkey-Jocks as possible to make up the numbers. Not much of a basis for holding an entire poltial community to ransom.
130

Alan B,

26/04/2008 17:50:37
cont..

I think there will only be a referendum, after the snp win the next scottish election by a much greater majority.

Labour will be in tatters after losing the general election the yr before. Brown will have resigned. Wendy will have little power with Brown away.
131

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 18:00:21
Hey just got to commet 5 and thought I'd point out this:

#5 Alfred E. Neuman: AND.....
How does that differ from any other poll?

Most(Scottish)polls that are published appear to have about 1,000 partisapents. With the largest being about 1,500.

*Please enter your comment*
132

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 18:09:48
#9 Stefan Mack: I ken!

I've always found thoes kind of commets odd, ma self.

Some folk just seem uncapable of dissinusish the diffrence between Independence through democray (or politics) and a war for idependence.

The truth is we just want to goven our own country and like most folk in the world the last thing we want is to be at war/ fighting with a nabouring country.
133

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 18:14:33
Puir auld Burns. He gets dragged into everything. For those who are interested here's Burns on the union:



Does haughty Gaul invasion threat?
.....Then let the loons beware, sir,
There's wooden walls upon our seas,
.....And volunteers on shore, sir :
The Nith shall rin to Corsincon,
.....And Criffel sink in Solway,
Ere we permit a foreign foe
.....On British ground to rally.

O ! let us not, like snarling curs,
.....In wrangling be divided,
Till slap come in an unco loon
.....And wi' a rung decide it.
Be Britain still to Britain true,
.....Amang ourselves united ;
But never but by British hands
.....Maun British wrangs be righted.




134

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 18:19:41
#173 Talorthane

The Commission does not discriminate against you or anybody else. You can say whatever you like to it. You can say whatever you like about it. No-one will prosecute you, sue you or persecute you. To write of human rights in this context is trivialise human rights.
135

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 26/04/2008 18:23:03
The future prosperity of Scotland within the UK framework is in this mans hands. Lets hope him all the very best to ensure the Commission translates the benefits far better than some of our scare mongering politicians who seem to have to rely on a negative approach to convince people of the merits of remaining an integral part of the UK.

If he does then it will be a genuine win-win situation. If not then the ugly head of nationalism will continue to grow out of proportion to its worth.
136

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 26/04/2008 18:25:03
The unionist party's have been Dragged to the negotiation table at last. TOO LATE! We've tasted what it's like to make our way Internally and now we will TAKE OUR INDEPENDENCE WITH IT! This commission is just a ploy to DELAY THE INEVITABLE!! GOODBYE!
137

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 18:27:41
#182
Jackie Priest

You write "We do regard the English as foregin, because that's what they are, and I hope they regard us as foreign, because that's what we are in relation to them".

Speak for yourself. I don't regard the English as foreign and, as a Scot working in England, I can say with absolute certainty that the English don't regard us as foreign.
138

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 18:40:08
191
Publius, as a Scot in London, what do you think of this?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2372/2442764942_980c4ff4ac_o.jpg
139

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 18:42:35
195. Hoos Poos and how is yous, AM2?

194. Hats off to C the L.
140

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 18:44:02
Evening all
141

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/04/2008 18:44:04
What number 188 refers to as the ugly head of nationalism is actually innuendo that is unfair to people who want independance.These people come from all sections of life,and many have made a positive contribution to communities in Scotland and many other counties.My Finnish wife who supports independence for her own country thinks that independance is something to be valued.Independance is the norm and involves:
1) A desire to have responsibilty for spending the nations income on what the population value
2) To collaborate in areas of mutual interest with other countries.
3) To provide assistance to developing countries
4)To represent you countries interests in the institutions of the world,eg,the EU etc
5) To learn from others.
This is being responsible,it does not involve invading others,or believing that you are superior.There is nothing ugly about that.I can tolerate different views but not insensitivity to views that differ from yours.While I welcome the Calmanan report but I am concerned that he is not neutral and willing to consider all points of view.
142

Alan B,

26/04/2008 18:45:35
Being foreign is simply living in a country that is not ur own. As such if u live in another country u are foreign. Whether u feel foreign really is a state of mind. Within the UK it really depends on u personally see the uk. As country or a multi-country relationship.

I live in london for about 7yrs and did feel i was a foreigner particularly at the begining. After a while u get used to place and that changes. In london so many people are from different countries, and it is so diverse that it is almost as if everyone is foreign. Might be an exageration but u come across few people born in london.

To a large extent i think being in another country makes feel foreign from the perpective of being more aware of ur scottishness.

When i lived in ireland (for a short time, a couple of times), i would say it was similar. I would say there was no really difference from living in london compared to dublin, even though one is within the uk and the other not.

In many ways i do not think of being abroad as being foreign but just more awareness that u are from a different country. Which at the of the day is what foreign is.







143

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 18:48:16
#194 Conan

A very distasteful drawing - though I never saw it until this morning when someone on this Board directed me to it.
Anyway O'Connor has now pulled out of the mayoral race due to lack of support and lack of interest in St George's Day. According to The Times his name will still on the ballot paper because it is too late to have it removed.
The English National Party is of no importance whatever. The ones who are worrying are the BNP. They may well make gains in England on 1st May - including to the London Assembly. The BNP are thorougly nasty but their nastiness is not directed towards Scots.
144

Alan B,

26/04/2008 18:52:23
#192 AM2

Salmond said he would not take both the msp and mp salary. The discussion was never about whether he would accept the additional income that would be forecoming as first minister.

Legally he has to draw the salary and that has been reported many times. He did not make the rules. As such that he donates one to charity.

As a question did any of the other mps eg Dewar donate one of the salaries from either sp or westminster to charity?
145

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 18:52:39
#194 Conan

P.S. For cartoons that deal in stereotypes of Scots have a look at The Times or The Spectator and see some of the cartoons of Gordon Brown.
146

Alan B,

26/04/2008 18:54:47
#200 AM2 and what was Ken Livingstones excuse?
147

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 18:56:01
201
Publius

Unless its Scots like Hardeep Singh Kohli?
148

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 18:57:28
Jack Straw: English MPs control all the money which Scotland receives - is that 'fair'? England constitutes 85% of the UK's population and 87% of its wealth. It was English MPs who agreed to devolve some powers to Scotland in a Westminster Act of Parliament; but year by year controls over public spending levels for all of the UK continue to be exercised by Westminster. And power devolved is power retained, not ceded.

While the current Tory cry of "English votes on English laws" has a simplistic appeal, it is in reality unworkable, undesirable and dangerous. It would create a two-tier system of "ins and outs" that would be so complex and confusing as to be unworkable.

How is it possible, for example, to distinguish between English "bits" of legislation and UK "bits"? It isn't. The territorial extent of the clause in a bill - or part of a clause - cannot be conclusive, as so many "England only" decisions have plain implications for Scotland as well.

Hence, Vernon Bogdanor, perhaps the foremost constitutional expert in Britain, has claimed that the Tory proposals would "destroy the principle of collective responsibility, according to which government must stand or fall as a whole, commanding a majority on all the issues that come before Parliament, not just a selection. It is difficult to see how Britain could be effectively governed in such circumstances."

Moreover, it is difficult to see how the UK could remain united. The outcome of a break-up of the union would be calamitous.

The United Kingdom - Great Britain and Northern Ireland - is a union which works to the equal benefit of all four nations of the union. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Historically, England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, among others things, of amplifying England's power worldwide.

And the reverse would certainly be true. A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland
149

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 18:58:04
And the reverse would certainly be true. A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England.

Our voting power in the European Union would diminish. We'd slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council.
150

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/04/2008 18:59:06
Alan B makes a good point that being foreign is living in a country that is not your own.Actually,all of us become foreigners when we are in someone elses country.I suppose I am a foreigner in Finland but have viewed this as something positive since it is a reminder of my unique cultural background.It is no more than that and my large Finnish family who provide me with a lot of respect and support ,only view my Scottish nationality with pride.They see it as a wonderful addition to their family.In addition my Finnish sister-in-law has an English son-in-law.They also welcome him with a sense of enrichment.Claiming a particular nationhood and seeking independence should not pose any difficulties for another person.It is sad that Professor Calman appears not to understand this point.Most Europeans understand my point very well.
151

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 19:00:54
#11 a proud Doonhammer

The YouGov poll is very interesting. Both YouGov and ICM show the SNP at around 4 per cent across the UK, say 35-40 per cent in Scotland. You can't closer than this because we don't know the sample size in Scotland.

What interests me is how the votes would be distributed among constituencies. When the Tories were thrown out in 1997, voters in many constituencies - north and south - ganged up behind the party most likely to defeat the Tories in that constituency. I am beginning to think Labour may suffer the same fate in the next UK election. If so, 20 plus seats for the SNP is a realistic target.
152

Alan B,

26/04/2008 19:10:18
#208 A Voice From Scotland

"We'd slip down in the world league GDP tables."

Luxembourg
Norway
Cyprus
Ireland
Switzerland
Iceland
Netherlands
Austria
Denmark
Sweden
Finland
Belgium

All have gdp ppp greater than the UK and scotland has not exactly grown well within the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Scotland has grown at the slow rate of less than 2% per yr (avg) for the last 30yrs. We have grown less than other small european nations and the uk.

So the fact is the current situation is not working.
153

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:22:41
The editorial comment on this article is rather patronising - or, rather, matronising. Just to expected I presume.
154

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:24:50
You know, people who come on here and moan about the posters should let the Scotsman try and run the country for a while. They seem to have the answer to everything.

155

The Pict.,

26/04/2008 19:24:59
This statement by the English Sir has the usual see through B..S.......

Now are we (SNPers) supposed to say to each other ' Och aye we be'hur shu'h our gubs and grab the crumbs afore the good sir talks agin them '?
Who does this CLOWN think he is? ...Just another English lackey of course.

The ISSUE is ' INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND ' This pathetic attempt to change this FACT is from a person who treats SCOTLAND and its' PEOPLE like children who can't think for themselves. It is an INSULT to anyone who is SCOTTISH. I wonder if Calman is a citizen of another country....one of the foreign ones he talks about e.g. Israel?

156

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 19:29:38
204
Aye.Private Eye."The Broonites"
I'm cancelling my subscription;-)
157

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 19:32:01
#191 Publius: I don't know if there really if such thing foregin when it come to people.

Sure Foregin Land, Foregin Culture, Foregin objects exist.

But foregin people I greatly dought. I've met many diffrent people from differnt countries and I must admit I've never really thought of any of them as being foregin. Only as being people who just happen to be a creatin nationality i.e. French, Spanish, Mulasian, Tiewinease, Chilian, Chinese, Swis. (sorry can't seem to spell most nationalities.)

P.S.
I do love it when they show a bit of national pride with openess towards folk of other natonalies.
158

,

26/04/2008 19:41:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Gordon lying traitor scum,

26/04/2008 20:35:02
The link between solar cycle length and decadal global temperature

Stephen Wilde
CO2 Skeptics
Saturday, April 26, 2008

I've been a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society since 1968. Admittedly that was before a science qualification was required but I've been a weather and climate geek for over 50 years.

The alleged link between cosmic ray flux and cloudiness remains to be proved or disproved.

The link between solar cycle length and decadal global temperature changes is obvious throughout all the weather records. It's not strictly a sunspot issue, it just happens that the longer the solar cycle is the less intense is the sunspot activity and presumably the overall heat output ( not necessarily the same as what we artificially term Total Solar Irradiance) during the cycle.

Short fast cycles with many sunspots result in warming. Long slow cycles with fewer sunspots result in cooling.

(Article continues below)


The mechanism which explains the clear and obvious link has not been ascertained adequately but it sure ain't anything to do with CO2. It is likely that the El Nino/ La Nina cycle is implicated with a dominance of El Nino resulting in global warming and a dominance of La Nina resulting in global cooling.
160

Truely English,

26/04/2008 20:35:23
I spoke to some Scottish friends today who come from Inverness and they said that the best and clearest spoken English was not in England but in Inverness, Morningside in Edinburgh and a part of Glasgow called Kelvinside.
Indeed, they went on to say how proud they were of this and the fact that they had all dispensed with the local venacular a long time ago, which is of course their right to do so.

Standard English comes from the Midlands of England and Lowland Scottish English comes from the North of England and was at one time called Inglis or Anglian English. This among many other things clearly shows we are indeed one nation.
161

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 20:48:19
220
I'm sure the Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, Manx and Romany speakers will agree.

English as is spoken by the South Eastern British, is the Saxon slave tongue, with Norman French on top.
i.e.Sheep cared for by the saxon serfs, became mutton (mouton)when it was eaten by their masters.

Oh,Sex in Morningside is what coal used to come in.
162

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 20:51:16
If I might be allowed to link 219 and 220, I would say that, while it is possible to prevent Gaelic speakers from talking in their own language whenever they enter primary school, thereby forcing them to learn English (British, actually) as a foreigh language, it is not possible for any scientist to sell Scottish rainclouds to Africa.
163

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 20:52:28
221
LOL ***turdophile***.
A friend of sphincters?
164

Truely English,

26/04/2008 20:55:18
Of course, English has absorbed many words from other languages like French which has made it stronger and more resourceful.
What is most interesting is that the version/dialect in Scotland is very pure English of the rustic kind you will find anywhere. Good luck and keep it strong.
165

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 21:01:22
It truly is - a wind up merchant.

The nation of plagiarists which plays on short memories to claim everything as their own.

Go ahead, Truely. I'm off to watch American rubbish on TV.
166

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:02:14
220
Do you mean "vernacular"? Meaning the native speech or language of a place? So how does supplanting one language for another, make us all one?
167

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:06:56
228
A riddle, wrapped up in an enema...
168

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:14:04
232
The sum of all things?
169

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 21:15:52
I am intrigued by the good professor’s decision to narrow the remit of his commission’s review.

He initially ruled out considering the option of independence, apparently on the somewhat debateable grounds that this option enjoyed the support of only 25% of the electorate.

He now seemingly wishes to rule out considering the transfer of powers back to Westminster, despite this position being contrary to the stated policy of those who would employ him.

Can we now deduce from these statements, that the results of this yet to happen review have already been pre-determined?

That the Scottish Government require enhanced powers, falling somewhat short of full independence or fiscal autonomy, but including a greater degree of influence over broadcasting, street lighting and maritime weather forecasting.

There you go, review complete, and at little cost to the taxpayer.

My invoice for £995.00 is in the post

(Eagle-eyed labourites may note that although I have an offshore address on my invoice, Arran is actually part of Scotland, unlike, say for example, Jersey).
170

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:25:59
236

Re 219 a scientist.

Re 220 a person who thinks the UK is actually united.Maybe a druid or somelike thing.
171

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:29:07
That was quick, ponytail man.236 must have done something really bad?
172

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:34:17
Meths, Jock, Col, even Truely, 236 was deleted for a stupid question, making my answer to it more so.

This is annoying.Remember Hootsman,
it is our hits which give you advertising revenue.
173

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 21:35:03
I'm so borried and wee bit tipsy!
174

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:37:17
239
A newbie name, perhaps the same URL?
175

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 21:40:45
Is it just me being a wee bit tipsy or was there misterus post from a person going by the name gone in instant (or something like that.

And weirldy their post have gone.

176

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 21:44:47
#242 Methalions: Realy, I'm on every so often.

BUT a bit diffcult when you leave the house before 8am and don't get back untill after 6pm. Doing a wee temp job!!!
177

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:46:24
Yes Eve, it was as Col. wonderfully puts it "sucked into the void".
As was your stone Meths?
178

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 21:56:26
241
If I was Alf, I would say have a pee on me, Meths.
179

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 21:57:15
#246 Methalions: These days my internet broser appears to be permently yellow. NOT a 100% sure what I did BUT it make things a bit easer at time.

I'm possible a bit more tispy than I thought I was cause I never really ate any tea the night and I've just fell in to the door way.

Might eat a wee tattie scone, feel hungry now!!!

What do you think of what the baw bag this story is on about?

I think he speaks for him self and the three unionist parties that highered him.
180

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 22:01:24
As this and other threads clearly demonstrate - it's aw ower bar the shoutin!

How are you Eve? Have a wee lie doon hen then come back and tear these unionists a new rectum.
181

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 22:03:06
Good evening cyber warriors - any foes left to vanquish?
182

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 22:03:15
Col.Just how many Alfs are there?I've lost count.
183

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 22:07:50
#247 An Beal Bacht: Aw it was just my arm, may have wee bruse the morrow. Though I think it might have been the socks and lamint flooring that made me slip into the door way.
What on earth is a rectum? have defently never seen that word wrten before. OMG tmy elbows a wee bit sore.

Watching what a women wants , OMG that 15 year old look 20. And Mel's forgoten to pait his face blu4e and white.
184

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 22:08:02
threads dead - missed the fun - nighty night.
185

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 22:15:21
12 missing post!!!

Its really odd this but Sir Kenneth Calman looks a wee bit like a tory, to me.

He apparntly has a "gut feeling" that he's right and want he wants for us Scots is right and we should want what is in his gut.

So there you go the uninon is in Sir Kenneth Calman gut.

I'm totaly grossed out (as the Amercans say) by this. Whats in his gut should stay in his gut and NOT be regurutated in the Scotsman.
186

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 22:16:13
252
http://bugs.bio.usyd.edu.au/Entomology/images/Topics/extMorphology/Roach_headFront.jpg

EEK.
187

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 22:25:36
Ahh, the “Mysterious Case Of The Missing Post #236”.

It was a late Sunday evening in April; the last No 27 carriage had just clattered its way past our lodgings in Baker Street, the Leerie was making his rounds, whistling his usual tuneless dirge, his version of “Highland Mary” often had me reaching for my revolver prior to him lighting our gas lantern before moving off.

I was idly browsing the Hootsmon politics forum, whilst Holmes was scratching unsuccessfully on his fiddle, in what appeared to me to be a wholly inappropriate attempt at a tribute to the late, sadly departed Humphrey Littlejohn.

I had posted an incisive, erudite and faintly ironic comment upon the Hootsmon forum, (enumerated as #235), and was awaiting an interesting, if not provocative response, from one of the two or three regular contributors who oppose my entirely rational and reasoned point of view.

Imagine my surprise, not to mention my complete despair, when I noticed that a response had been forthcoming, but that some unseen hand had determined that this response should never see the light of day!

“Holmes!”, I exclaimed, “Nefarious events are afoot!”

Holmes immediately cast aside his ineffectual attempts to saw his violin in half, and using his renowned powers of perception and observation simply asked, “And who do Clyde meet in the play-offs?”
188

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 22:26:30
Jeez...hope so...Hee hee
189

Conan the Librarian™,

26/04/2008 22:31:18
259
Spartans?
190

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 22:38:18
#257 Col. Blimp­IV*: Really!!!

Boy this rosey wine is good, can't belive theres folk that tell you that it doesnae get you tipsy.
Falling in to door ways and mow busting yer gut with laughter.

I've just looked at the bottel aparently the alcohol content is 12.5%.
NOT so iset as some people claim.
191

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 22:41:07
#261

Alas, the last time those clubs met, Clyde 5 Spartans 0, will not be replicated,
Eamon Bannon has since retired , and Spartans could no longer hope to achieve 0.
Good try though.
192

Eve,

I belong to Scotland dear auld Scotland 26/04/2008 22:56:29
Sir whats his name says:
"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom."

If yer a passionate Scot, Let Scots decide their future and NOT just the privelged few (like him self)

If yer happy and you know it clap yer hands.
If yer happy to live in UK wave yer hands.
If yer unhappy and live in the UK stamp yer feet.
If you don't care FOR WHAT THIS BAW BAG WHATS shout and ball. Cause if ye don't he'll think he's right but really he's a....................

193

Jock Tamson,

ello, ello. ello 26/04/2008 22:59:01
what's been going on ere?
194

Jock Tamson,

ello, ello, ello 26/04/2008 23:01:36
enough American rubbish, back to pseudo Scottish rubbish. They are becoming very broad minded these days (the Americans), compared to the censorship on these threads.
195

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 23:05:47
#203. Good grief, eeeeek, aaargh, sorry you have mistaken me for a numpty supine cringing unionist. I should have made it clear that was a BBC interview with Jack Straw.


Must go and lie down, eek.
196

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 23:06:59
#266 Jock Tamson: ello, What happened to the "H"?

It's good to see some broad minded thinking espealy when it comes from the Amercans. Normaly they are quite Gulable and would belive any thing that someone had hought to tel them.

I say " Free education for Mebers of the Scottish Media!!! regardless if they have a degree in media or jurnalism. They should have 2 one in reporting the news/gossip and the other in the subjexct they write about.
197

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2008 23:11:46
#267 A Voice From Scotland: You poor wee thing!!

Demand head master got you downn!!!

My typings apluling the night, normal it's jut my spelling that is. SO my post are twice as difficult to read so I would like to apualges for that.
198

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 26/04/2008 23:17:14
Night all.

They alchol has gone ma poor wee heed and a wa to dance it of the sleep it off.

guid night
199

Truely English,

26/04/2008 23:36:41
Good to see old Inglis being used on these web pages . keep up the good work. Easy to read and happy to read it.
200

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/04/2008 00:09:50
271, Spellchecker. Nice to see one Eng happy on here for a change.

Güten nacht. Wonder what that became, but as we say the variation as well, it most certainly is cultural imperialism to call it English.
201

Jock Tamson,

In fact, Truely 27/04/2008 00:15:14
I would also suggest that your lot took the Irish Gaelic spelling of the ch words to give you the ough words in British when you developed a kind of British equivalent of the Spanish lisp.
202

Talorthane,

27/04/2008 02:16:37
#179 Pubilus

"#173 Talorthane

The Commission does not discriminate against you or anybody else. You can say whatever you like to it. You can say whatever you like about it. No-one will prosecute you, sue you or persecute you. To write of human rights in this context is trivialise human rights."


"No-one will prosecute you, sue you or persecute you."

Do you think that this is the limits of human rights legislation?

It's not about being threatened in any way. It's about being treated fairly and equally with others in your society.

You may argue that discussion of human rights beyond what threatens you in a physical manner is to trivialise the legislation itself.

However, others will argue that to put limits on the reach of human rights legislation is a much greater trivialisation.


What's the difference between the Calman review and a public swimming pool.

They are both paid for by public money, and are therefore only justifiable if they serve the public interest.

The purpose of the swimming pool is to let people swim and to experience the benefits of such activity.

The purpose of the review is to let people express their views on Scotland's future, and to have these views taken into account in decisions about this matter.


How would you feel if the swimming pool erected a sign that said "No nationalists"?

 

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