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Peers vow to oppose planned reforms in Lords amid fears for parliament's integrity

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Published Date: 15 July 2008
NEW government plans to reform the House of Lords were last night attacked by peers as "undemocratic, unacceptable and possibly unconstitutional".
This opened up the possibility of another "great escape" for the second chamber, which has already frustrated a decade of Labour attempts to make it directly elected.

Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, yesterday outlined proposals to make the Lor
ds fully or mainly elected, although he admitted this would not happen until after the next general election, due by June 2010.

He wants the number of peers reduced from more than 700 to no more than 450, and would abolish the hereditary peers – those sitting in the Lords by right of family ties. Their number has already been reduced to 92 by reforms introduced when Tony Blair was prime minister.

Peers would serve single terms of between 12 and 15 years, compared with MPs, who have to be re-elected every five years.

The Tories also back reform, meaning that changes are likely to be put before MPs which ever party forms the next government. But a number of members of the Lords, which voted by a huge majority last year to reject having the second chamber elected, said they would oppose the changes vigorously. Baroness D'Souza, who heads a group of 61 independent or cross-bench peers, said she was concerned that the primacy of the Commons could be undermined if both MPs and peers were elected.

At present the Lords is used to amend legislation and has the power to delay or block bills for 13 months, forcing the Commons to "think again" on controversial issues. This autumn it is expected to reject the Counter-Terrorism Bill, which proposes 42 days' detention for terrorist suspects.

Baroness D'Souza said: "A largely elected House of Lords will have a deleterious effect on its ability to scrutinise legislation and hold the government to account. The House would be dominated by party political appointments through party lists, which, in short, will mean less independence, less expertise and less diversity.

"At the same time, supporters of an elected upper house must concede that elected peers will not be prepared to defer to the Commons."

Publishing a reform white paper, Mr Straw insisted it had never been the government's intention to legislate in this parliament. Instead the proposals would be put to voters as part of a manifesto commitment at the next general election.

"The white paper represents a significant step on the road to reform and is intended to generate further debate and consideration rather than being a final blueprint for reform," Mr Straw said.

Nick Herbert, the Tory shadow justice secretary, said the white paper was a "step forward", but called for first-past-the-post rather than proportional representation to be used to elect the second chamber.

Mr Herbert said: "We have argued for a second chamber of between 250 and 300 members, a similar size to the upper houses of France, Italy and Spain. The US Senate has only 100 members for a population of 300 million – albeit in a federal system."

How they currently line up

WHEN Jack Straw made his first attempt to reform the House of Lords last year, he bemoaned the fact that changes had been on the agenda since 1909.

The post of Lord Chancellor has been scrapped – the task of chairing debates and sitting on the woolsack is now entrusted to the Lord Speaker – while Mr Straw remains in the Commons as Justice Secretary. Previously, his job was done by Lord Falconer.

At present, there are 643 life peers – also known as working peers, who are nominated by the political parties and include many former MPs and ministers – and 92 hereditary peers, who were chosen from a ballot of hereditaries when their number was dramatically culled several years ago.

There are also 26 Church of England bishops and archbishops – who Mr Straw proposes to retain, though without their voting rights – and 21 law lords.





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  • Last Updated: 14 July 2008 9:52 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Traquir , Alba,

15/07/2008 00:19:50
Perhaps the Independence-lite , federalist bloggers
could kick in here to see what they would do.
The US is often held up as a model where the
second house the senate is an equal partnership
irregardless of population. So perhaps you could
offer Scotland,Wales and Northern
Ireland an equal partnership in this Union with
England so the 450 would about 112 Lords a piece.
I'm sure Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
would consider this, but would England
regard such equality as a price worth paying
to save the Union. I guess it might depend
on the price of oil, rather than
anything to do with democracy per-se :)

Saor Alba
2

Tris,

15/07/2008 00:35:26
The United States elected senators, originally as representatives of the state, whilst the house members were representative of the people. We might try that. In American there are 2 senators from each state (all of which are supposed to be equal). So 2 from Scotland, 2 from Wales, 2 from NI and 2 from England. That should save a bit of money. And while we're saving money I would have thought about 350 MMPs should be enough.

Not much point in us bothering though; in a few years we won't have anyone in the House of Peers or Commons.
3

Royster,

15/07/2008 01:37:19
Hasn't Jack Straw already destroyed enough of UK society with his well-meaning but naive Human Rights Act?
4

FrancesP,

15/07/2008 01:43:41
"NEW government plans to reform the House of Lords were last night attacked by peers as 'undemocratic, unacceptable and possibly unconstitutional'."

Translation - "No! You can't take away our jobs!"

The repertoire of arguments against Lords reform that are routinely trotted out are complete sophistry from beginning to end. Apart from Canda, every Western democracy with a bicameral system either directly or indirectly elects its second chamber. In fifty years' time, it will - to say the least - seem curious that we could ever have considered ourselves a fully-fledged democracy when only one-half of parliament was actually elected.

And, by the way, there has not been "a decade of Labour attempts to make it directly elected". Blair explicitly said he wanted a fully-appointed House, and because he knew that was a position his party wouldn't tolerate, he deliberately kicked the whole reform issue into the long grass.
5

Simon Vickers,

London 15/07/2008 03:03:38
The reason the House of Lords has not yet been reformed is because the current government has not yet dared to do what they want to do with it: make it into a sort of quango filled with professional politicians, something like the European Parliament. Why would we need such a body? Do we need more smooth talkers and expenses claimers?
No, what we need is a House of Peers filled with British citizens chosen by lot, as in the case of jury service, to faithfully represent the people of the country. The House of Peers would be sovereign, and any new laws put forward by the government would have to be approved by it by a clear majority, after proper discussion and time for reflection. The House of Peers would provide a proper curb on the tendency of the government gradually extend its powers, as it will naturally tend to do. Issues it could well address would be free speech, personal privacy, immigration, long-term energy planning etc. And they would hold the government accountable. The system could be introduced progressively, by slowly increasing the proportion of members chosen by lot.
6

donald,

glasgow 15/07/2008 03:54:13
LEAVE eNGERLAND TO SUPPORT ITS OWN hOUSE OF lORDS AND cLASS BASED INSTITUTIIONS.
7

Boy Wonder,

15/07/2008 06:25:52
The continuation of a "House of Lords" underlines the class system. Which is one reason why it must go if we want a classless country!
8

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 15/07/2008 06:51:06
It appears that for the sake of outdated tradition the English are determined to keep a living Madame Tussauds museum.
9

SouthernSkye,

15/07/2008 07:27:50
Leave The Lords Alone.
They are the only sanity-check holding the reign on an out of control NL !
10

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/07/2008 08:12:07
#1 Have not given much thought yet to a second chamber. However I have considered how a possible lower chamber would be elected and this would affect how the upper chamber was elected.

In federal structure my own view is that you don't need two sets of representatives going to both Holyrood and to Westminster. Therefore any lower chamber of a UK Federal Parliament would be made up of the elected representatives of the constituent federal parts. As a UK Federal parliament would only meet to discuss issues that were the domain of the federal government then they would not meet as often as the present UK parliament.

By implication then any second chamber could not be made up of the existing representatives of the constituent federal parts. One possible solution would be to have elected upper houses for the constituent federal parts who would also act as members of a UK upper house. One benefit of this would be that legislation in each constituent part would be scrutinised more closely than at present without there having to be a whole raft of new politicians. Any second chamber would ideally be made up of a much smaller number representatives than the lower chamber. In any case the total number of represenatives should be reduced from the number at present - I still believe that 650 MPs is too many MPs. Similarly,700 members of the Lords is too many Lords.

All elections should be done by proportional representation and, like the US, elections should be held on a rolling basis. A 6-year term for both houses with one third elected every two years. Elections would alternate each year between those for the lower chamber and those for the upper chamber. This would keep both national and state governments on their toes. It would also prevent the blatant buying of the electorate that has happened in the past in this country - the throwing of money at voters by chancellors in the run-up to a General Election.
11

bluehead,

edinburgh 15/07/2008 09:16:40
perhaps we should reform governments by reducing MP' to nothing and start all over again.
each pile, the British people put in power seem to be worse than the last lot,
at this moment brown and his mob must be the worst lot of all time,some of the things they say and do are beyond all belief.
Britain has been turned into a circus
12

Alan B,

15/07/2008 09:30:55
The house of lords should be turned into an elected english parliament.

13

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 15/07/2008 09:33:27
I keep saying it, the UK is over governed.
For a population of approximately 59 million you have 646 MPs and 738 in the Lords; a total of 1,284.
The USA with an approximate population of 281 million has 100 Senators and 435 Representatives, a total of 535.
What's that saying about too many cooks spoiling the broth?
14

Anglofile,

15/07/2008 11:10:15
Somehow I don't see "Parliament" and "Integrity" ever being together.
15

,

15/07/2008 12:51:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Bigwull,

edinburgh 15/07/2008 13:57:05
13 yip and there the West Lothian question would be solved at a stroke, could also reduce the no of MPs on the gravy train in the commons to around 100, and no place for peers in the government of this country at all, a true democracy at last.
17

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

15/07/2008 15:43:21
All of you who are agin the HoL are Idiots. (I don't often insult on these boards but this time . . .)

As #5 Simon pointed out they are Very Often the only thing that stands between stoopid Government policies and the rest of society. They are independent of party politics most of the time. To have an elected 2nd House would be just to have a 2nd HoC to all intents and purposes.

You all sit there saying stuff about class system an that - get over it. The class system is here to stay. I may not like it, you may not like it, but it works. I'm not talking about people having more money either, a peer could be absolutely brassic and still be able to serve in the HoL.

It's either them or, as Simon says, fill it with US, THE PEOPLE. That'd fack 'em right up eh?
18

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 16/07/2008 00:06:59
“Peers vow to oppose planned reforms in Lords amid fears for parliament's integrity”

Now with a headline like that in this day and age we surly do have to ask “integrity what integrity”
19

donald,

glasgow 16/07/2008 06:41:01
Leave the Chamber pots behind. Independence now!
20

donald,

glasgow 16/07/2008 06:41:37
Leave the Labour bums behind in the House of Horrors.
21

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 16/07/2008 12:56:35
Well maybe the Lords who are actually awake or indeed present in the House of Lords (700 of them in total - can't believe it!) have been overseeing the integrity of the House of Commons, but it's not terribly evident. Considering that many of these are placemen and women and those rewarded (some might say bribed) by the prospect to hand over huge donations are not really in a sound position to modify any of the extremes of government behaviour.

A simple referendum would probably also oust another unnecessary layer of government - MEPs. What are they for? We're distinctly overgoverned at great cost to us as taxpayers.
22

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 17/07/2008 00:01:59
#14

Our Congress may do its job with 536 total persons (the Vice President is the tie-breaker vote in the Senate), but it does not mean we are represented well. While the Senate enlarges by two persons as states were (are) admitted, the House is fixed to a maximum of 435 representatives, so if another state were to join, our representation is diluted in order to make room.

That being said, our Senate was borne out of a unique feature long gone from British Politics - the ability to consent to or block legislation from the lower house to ensure (sic) that fanatical laws do not pass.

The problem with your government is Parliament Act 1911 and Parliament Act 1949. The removal of the ability of the Lords to kill legislation has caused your government to greatly expand its powers and intrusions into everyday life, enough so that it now threatens a 301 year old union.

There's no point to having an upper house, no matter the number of members, if the lower house can still get what it wants by waiting one year to revote on blocked legislation.

Our Constitution specifies that no bill can be forwarded to the President for assent that has not been passed by both houses of Congress, and the bill must be identical. So after one house passes a bill to the other, and the other votes, a conference committee is set up to resolve differences between the two houses versions, and a final unified bill, if passed again, is then sent to POTUS. You want to reform Parliament, you don't necessarily need to elect the Lords, you need to put a power check on the Government and the Commons by revoking the Parliament Acts.

 

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