Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


SNP firearms law vetoed by Westminster

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 24 December 2007
By HAMISH MACDONELL
Scottish Political Editor
SCOTTISH Government plans to take control of firearms legislation so ministers could introduce a ban on airguns have been rebuffed by the Home Office, it emerged yesterday.
Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, wants to introduce a total ban on air weapons north of the Border, but he cannot do so without the co-operation of Westminster.

All firearms' legislation for the UK is reserved to Westminster and since July Mr MacAskill has been in talks with the Labour government in London in an attempt to get control of firearms passed to Holyrood.

But it has now emerged that Jacqui Smith, the UK Home Secretary, has decided to reject the Scottish Government's proposals, leading to a further cooling of relations between the two administrations.

A spokesman for the Home Office said: "It would be confusing and potentially damaging to create a situation in which the entire body of firearms law in Scotland could differ from that in England and Wales.

"There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals exploiting any differences."

Mr MacAskill yesterday said that he was "extremely disappointed" with the UK government's decision.

He added: "I detect the dead hand of the Scotland Office behind this. With the Scotland Office dogmatically against any further form of devolution – they have even talked about clawing powers back – not only are they ignoring the serious problem of air-weapon crime in Scotland, they are leaving the Labour Party's commitment to further devolution threadbare and confused."

Scottish Government ministers argue that they could acquire powers over airguns in one of two ways – either through devolving firearms legislation permanently to Holyrood, or a one-off procedure in which Westminster could agree to the Scottish Parliament legislating in this area.

It now appears as if both options have been rejected by the Home Office.

New UK-wide laws went on to the Westminster statute book last year. These effectively outlaw the sale of airguns at car-boot sales, corner shops and outlets not regulated by police.

The legislation also raises the age limit for owning airguns from 17 to 18, tightens the law on firing air weapons from private property and effectively outlaws mail-order and internet sales.

In March, two families of airgun victims handed a petition to Holyrood seeking a ban on personal ownership of handguns.

The Home Office decision on firearms represents the latest setback for the Scottish Government in its attempts to wrest control over a number of areas from Westminster.

Scottish ministers' calls to allow EU fisheries negotiations to be led by them have already been refused.

In addition, Westminster has not acceded to requests from the SNP government to hand over tens of millions of pounds in attendance allowance – money withdrawn from Scotland after free elderly care was introduced by the former Scottish Executive.

Holyrood ministers are still in talks with UK counterparts but, with each refusal, the gulf between the two administrations has widened.

TRAGEDY FUELLED VOW TO ACT

THE SNP promised to act to ban airguns in Scotland following the death of two-year-old Andrew Morton, who was shot dead in Easterhouse, Glasgow in 2005.

The toddler died after being struck on the head with a pellet fired from an air rifle.

He was being carried by his older brother as they made their way to a chip shop in the Craigend area of Glasgow and had stopped to look at fire engines.

Mark Bonini, 27, was sentenced to life for killing the two-year-old.

Bonini lived in a flat nearby and had been taking "pot-shots" out of the window with an air rifle, which had been adapted to make it more powerful.

Bonini was ordered to serve at least 13 years before he could apply for parole.

SNP leaders promised to do all they could in government to pursue a ban on all airguns in Scotland.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 December 2007 11:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Airguns
 
1

beckypumps1,

Fife 24/12/2007 00:58:39
I would like to see a ban also somesort of public funded gun buyback program be it cash/methadon/white shell suits just get the things in the crusher.It would take a number of years to see an improvment though.
2

Wait a minute,

Town 24/12/2007 00:59:26
Arrogant behaviour from Gordon Brown's woefully out of touch government. Scotland should be able to tackle this, Westminster says no.

Labour are showing the true Union Dividend - subservience
3

,

24/12/2007 01:12:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

kirk 1,

24/12/2007 01:15:44
#1 3 dead and over 1100 injured since 2000, hardly very rare.

"the SNP's so-called promise to ban them was just another they were in no position to keep"

Why? do you think it's the end of the matter?

Remember this is a goverment with balls, not a do as your told by westminster lab/lib parish council.
5

baffies away,

24/12/2007 01:20:03
AM2, I am stunned that you claim air gun accidents are rare, the whole point of this was the murder of a two year old with an air gun, not an accident. Sometimes your blind obedience to the Labour line is just out of order and linking this incident to an accident to justify the Labour position is shocking.
6

The Strategist,

24/12/2007 01:37:21
"SNP leaders promised to do all they could in government to pursue a ban on all airguns in Scotland..."

So they didn't promise to ban them but promised to pursue a ban and came up with two possible options both of which recognised that firearms laws was not a devolved issue.

However, they've done that and both options have been rejected by Jacqui Smith.

Consequently I would say the SNP have kept their promise and in doing so have certainly gained the moral high ground. Jacqui Smith had better keep her fingers crossed there isn't a repeat of the Andrew Morton incident.

7

Miss Jean Brodie,

24/12/2007 01:42:50
Seeking Liberty

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson
8

A Better Way,

24/12/2007 01:54:37
So we now have the Scottish Office of the foreign government telling us that we just have to lump it. Well come on Annabel, Nicol and Wendy, what exactly do you say to this sensible request by the SNP Scottish Government for the authority to ban a particular weapon that killed a Scottish Bairn.

Of course it was only a Scottish Bairn and its more important that Des Browne,David Cairns and Gordon Brown have a chance to snub our request, and score political goals.

Are you lot that far out of touch with this countries people, that you dare use an attempt by Scots to prevent the death of another Scottish Bairn as a political point scoring opportunity. You pathetic excuse for Scotsmen are the shame of your country.
9

Miss Jean Brodie,

24/12/2007 02:15:43
Am no sure aboot this ane - ban air-rifles, next thing ye know - nae walkin on the grass or sellin fish n chips tae anybody born on 23 April (look it up).

If you want to stop murder how about a ban on Alcohol or Automobiles - didn’t think so!

No - Liberty is not about banning things it’s about having a freedom and well educated society - something that is possible in a future Scotland.
10

Miss Jean Brodie,

24/12/2007 02:15:43
Am no sure aboot this ane - ban air-rifles, next thing ye know - nae walkin on the grass or sellin fish n chips tae anybody born on 23 April (look it up).

If you want to stop murder how about a ban on Alcohol or Automobiles - didn’t think so!

No - Liberty is not about banning things it’s about having a freedom and well educated society - something that is possible in a future Scotland.
11

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 03:43:39
"Airgun accidents are thankfully very rare,"

AM2,

Another example of you missing the point. The rarity of the incidents is irrelevant. The resulting deaths is what matters. The real issue we shoud be tackling is the availability of violent weapons. Have you really nothing to say on this issue?

You said: "the SNP's so-called promise to ban them was just another they were in no position to keep. That said, I would like to see tighter regulation of these weapons, on a UK-wide basis."

You are, of course, aware that the SNP can't bring in legislation because power still lies with Westminster. So, your view that a UK-wide response is best is, of course, the only option we have. Good for you! Keep praising our limited options. Evidently, it makes sense to you.

I wonder what your view is on the sale of crossbows, hunting knives, etc., which sell for less than £30 in Glasgow and with no need for a license? Happy to wait for Westminster to rally to a decision on that?

12

Jim A,

24/12/2007 03:56:48
I think having an all out ban on airguns is a bit over the top, there are probably a fair few law abiding folk who own air rifles and use them responsibly. Instead of banning them regulate them the same as centre fire rifles and shotguns, and should someone be caught with an airgun that isn't registered lock them up. Banning the things won't make them go away the handgun ban and the recent spate of shootings down south is proof of that.
13

,

24/12/2007 04:00:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 04:05:02
Jim A,

there are evidently a lot of guns in circulation that aren't registered. The difference is that they are bought illegaly, whilst airguns are often bought from shops such as Victor Morris in Glasgow. As far as I know, I cannot go into a shop and buy a real gun, but I can go into a shop and buy an airgun.
15

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 04:09:13
#17, A Proud doomhammer

as an SNP voter I find the maths wanting. I thought there were only 57 seats at Westminster available to Scottish MPs?
16

,

24/12/2007 04:15:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

somerferg,

oz 24/12/2007 04:35:01
Quelle surprise - another excellent piece of legislation designed to benefit all Scots has been stopped by the NUmpty Labour mafia in London. At least more Scots are waking up and smelling the coffee when it comes to the monkeys in red rosettes except for the usual unionist drones (damn few these days thank goodness). Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all Scots who love Scotland where ever you are :)
18

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

24/12/2007 04:58:50
Her Majesty Queen Sandra wites:-

"Instead of a ban, why not just tighten regulations on the purchase and ownership of such guns, and make people more accountable for their actions?

Many responsible people own guns for sport and also for self protection.

Just came back from Food Lion, needed a couple of last minute things for Christmas. Again, there was the Horrendicoot accompanied by morons making sport of following me around. Personally, I would not lower myself to do that to any other human being.

I am starting to wonder if the Horrendicoot actually works for some of my distant relatives, or why they allow this to continue.-------Dave, whoever you are - that was a nice "snow job" yesterday. By the way, I have reported these creeps. Why don't you try reporting people from SOME OF THE WEALTHIEST families, and see where that gets you! Here is what I do know, Pal. - I am more than likely the LAST LIVING BRUCE DESCENDANT who knows where a very old BRUCE ARMOUR AND SHIELD are buried. And this is the problem.

Instead of ostracizing me from The Family, and either having or allowing me to be harassed, I would think THE INTELLIGENT thing would be to treat me like a human being, and have the snowballs to come to me and work this out. I am indeed a direct descendant of Robert The Bruce (Dave, email me. I'll prove it to you.) And this matter is one that pertains to my Bruce ancestry, the country of Scotland, and historical value to all of us. The person who needs help with mental health is the Horrendicoot. He is not an asset to anyone, even himself.

And for all of you: I spoke with an 83 year old American Bruce, first cousin of my late father, yesterday. He remembers Great Grandfather Bruce, and remembers that he did, indeed, bring armour and a shield with him to the US.

Some people need to get Horrendicoot out of this, and unbungle what he has bungled - fore it's too late.

Merry Christmas!"

On the face of it this appears to be complete and utter d
19

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

24/12/2007 04:59:51
On the face of it this appears to be complete and utter drivel, but on second reading what an intriguing picture it paints.

Here we have romance , mystery , conspiracy and intrigue all wrapped up in a post proporting to be about gun control.

All the elements of a best selling thriller are either there or are implied.

An disinherited individual of royal lineage, mystical buried treasure, an evil rich person going by the wonderful name of “Horrendicoot”, sinister shadowy and moronic stalkers haunting the local supermarket…………….

Go on Your Majesty, bring in some horses, sex and violence and we have the makings of a blockbuster movie here.

Oh by the way, all air guns should be licensed, and only those who are able to show just cause for owning one , should be allowed to do so.


20

Jingling Geordie,

OK Coral 24/12/2007 05:00:10
Wonder if the same Jaqui Smith will veto the above infaltion pay rise?

We want "shot" of this lot.
21

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 24/12/2007 06:23:07
OK for the gun control lobby lets take this slowly, after Dunblane there was a HANDGUN ban and it did not work. the number of deaths/woundings by illegally held handguns has gone up since all the LEGALLY held handguns were removed. So the BAN DID NOT WORK!!!!!!!

22

Bob Brundige,

Springfield, KY USA 24/12/2007 06:34:53
There's a great place to send all civilian's guns: Mercury. It's very warm on Mercury.
23

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 24/12/2007 06:39:04
Bob away and stick to your pal Mickinley Morganfield and leave Scotland alone
24

Jim A,

24/12/2007 06:58:15
#18 Gregor, that's what I mean mate, the damn things are just too easy to buy. Don't know if you still can still do it but I remember years back seeing them for sale in some shopping catalogue that sold household goods and the likes. When you say you cannot go into a shop and buy a real gun I take you mean a handgun, no you can't and neither can anyone else but as long as you have the proper documentation mate and no criminal record, you can buy a centre fire bolt action rifle or shotgun. Like I said in my previous post register them and if caught with and illegal air gun do pass go and do not collect 200 quid.
25

Patriot from Scotland,

Strachur 24/12/2007 07:18:56
Yet another sad example of the ever dead hand of Westminster.Let us be rid of this monster and soon.
26

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 07:28:22
Looks like Mr Salmond has yet again manoeuvred his pieces in such a position to be able to take the opposition Queen Wendy whenever he wishes.

The Brown King appears to be somewhat vulnerable from Salmond’s left flank attack
.
Despite having no bought and paid for Knights in his armoury, Salmond has sacrificed a couple of prawns in order to achieve his position of ascendancy.

It will only take the defection of one of the wavering Bishops to secure victory.

The end game is in sight.

Check!
27

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

24/12/2007 07:30:07
Just listened to the Westminster minister who is apparently responsible for this issue in England, on Radio Scotland

He (sorry, did not catch his name), believes that different laws in Scotland from England may lead to confusion and exploitation by criminals.

He was unable to go on an justify what he thought the point of devolution was.

If Scottish solutions for Scottish problems are not available within this devolution agreement, then let us examine the alternatives.
28

Chalmers,

PERTH 24/12/2007 07:33:25
# 17.

The ICM/Guardian poll published last week (with the fieldwork being conducted over several preceding weeks) had the following Westminster voting intention findings:

SNP 39%
Lab 36%
Con +3%?
LD's presumably below 10%

(actual Con and LD numbers were not published in the newspaper article).
29

Russell M,

Stirling 24/12/2007 07:49:36
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." (Bernard Baruch)

OK. So we ban air guns, you're of criminal intent, you want some kind of gun to commit a crime and it is equally difficult getting any kind of gun. Are you going to go to the bother of getting an air gun or plunk for the real thing?

The problem is that we are passing far reaching legislation impacting all law abiding subjects based on the actions of a minuscule proportion of the population. We are legislating for the exception rather than the rule and by doing so embolden that handful of the population with a propensity for violence.

Why is it better, in (socialist) Britain, for lawful citizens to be afraid on the streets and in their own homes than for those contemplating criminal and/or violent behaviour?

If safety is the goal then lets ban the most deadly machine of all, the automobile. We already have public transport which could be returned to the level of service destroyed by Beeching and Co. and even improve beyond that. Or let's go to the root of the problem and ban violent behaviour.
30

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/12/2007 08:08:45
Mr MacAskill might at least have made the dead hand allusion clear, somehow I don't see Jacqui Smith standing at the Dispatch box doing a Charlton Heston impression “From My Cold Dead Hands" and brandishing an air rifle or was he referring to "Mortmain " from his time studying law.
31

McMillar,

Fife 24/12/2007 08:20:55
Hmmmm anything promoting the increased well being of people in Scotland should be welcomed. Does look like a’dodgy decision’ here. Another Sunday paper had interesting article about how Brown had broken off all communication with Salmond. Just sulking and never likely to do anything to promote a healthy working relationship. This may just be an example of ‘stuff them’. I had expected better from Brown and he has potential to really turn things around after Bliar but at the moment he is just drowning.
32

Joe90,

Erehwon 24/12/2007 08:30:27
I am a supporter of the SNP. However I do not support this proposed legislation. The ban on handguns after the Dunblane tragedy has not worked. More people than ever are being killed by guns which, apparently, are easily and cheaply obtained on the black market. I own two air guns AND a re-curve bow and many arrows. Should the latter also be banned? Why should people who enjoy target shooting be penalised for the actions of the few morons who will still be able to obtain such weapons if they really want them? What next? Ban shotguns? Can you imagine the outcry from farmers and the hunting fraternity? As someone has already said, alcohol, drugs and motor cars cause countless more deaths than airguns. Should we not ban them too? The short answer is NO! Better control and stricter regulations are the answers.
33

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 24/12/2007 08:34:56
I voted SNP and will at the next election however the ban on air guns policy to me is one of the daftest and most reactionary ideas I have heard from any political party. There is absolutely no need for this it's not the guns which kill people it's people who kill people and unless the government are planning to ban people then idiots will always exist and there will always be a means for them to cause damage no matter what they choose as a method. I think a reality check is required here as things are starting to get well out of hand.
34

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/12/2007 08:35:57
#1 AM2 And what "accidents" are you referring to? Clearly you are out of touch. We are talking about deliberate shootings here. I watched a bunch of kids 2 or 3 years ago in the Bon Accord Centre in Aberdeen, firing an air pistol randomly at passers by. I did of course report them to no avail. However,I think you need to get out of your silo and have a look around you at what's going on in the real world. These incidents are not at all rare.
35

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/12/2007 08:46:08
#25 Ross

Its difficult to measure whether the hand-gun ban "worked". It may well have helped in slowing the upward trend in gun use though.
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/12/2007 08:49:22
I assume that the opposition leaders at Holyrood will support this as part of their devolving more powers to Holyrood discussions. The reality of this is that Brown et al are using this very serious issue to slap down the SNP Government. They will pay for this at the next election.
37

Jeeemy,

24/12/2007 08:50:13
connaughtboy,stonehaven#
There you have the nub of the problem " firing an air pistol randomly at passers by. I did of course report them to no avail"
With 7% of the police force on the beat at any one point in time nothing can get done! of course it would be recorded as a firearm incident, but they might have been sitting in the station writing up their report on the two drunks that they had lifted and that takes a lot of time.
38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/12/2007 08:59:44
#42 Jeeemy

I reported them to the shopping centre security staff. I very much doubt that the police were ever informed.
39

Logie Almond,

24/12/2007 09:08:33
Blustering buffoon McAskill is yet again deliberately picking a fight with the UK government.
40

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

24/12/2007 09:21:03
Wales, NI and Scotland not allowed to compete with London on tax, wonder why?, but we are allowed to keep legislation that helps neds get access to potentially lethal weapons.

Keep us poor and killing ourselves by whatever means, diet, suicide, violence, airguns etc etc etc
41

Stephen101,

How rare? 24/12/2007 09:22:25
AM2 in his usual pompous condescending manner tells us that air gun accidents are 'very rare.

Tell us AM2, how many children being killed by airguns is acceptable to you, you being such an expert on statistics? You must have a link to where the right number (in your opinion) lies.

Answer that first and then start scoring your personal political points.

At least we can now see that your personal axe being ground is more important to you that the lives of innocents.
42

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 09:28:09
Who in their right mind can takes anything from Westminster seriously anymore?

They stop us, the Welsh and NI competing on tax so make us poor and ensure the southeners continue to get rich, live longer, buy second homes up here and have a better life.

We get crap jobs on crap money to buy overly inflated crap homes that keep us in debt for ever.


get rid of them now or leave
43

Boy Wonder,

24/12/2007 09:29:25
Hands up who didn't see that coming?

Our "Senior Partner" wants to make all the important decisions ... again!

Declare an Independent Republic of Scotland now, Alex ...


44

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

24/12/2007 09:40:50
Listening to this Fred Maculey shiot on Radio England, BBC, , what the fukc is this all about?

45

Calum10,

24/12/2007 09:47:49
Scots owe it to the family of Andrew Morton to act decisively over this matter.

The Scottish government, a Holyrood committee, or an individual MSP should bring forward legislation at Holyrood to effectively ban the sale and use of airguns. No one would dare voice any opposition on this matter. The opposition parties would be forced to support it's passage through Holyrood, and this would effectively nullify the Home Office and the numpties at the Scotland Office.

This whole tragic matter is above politics.
46

sergiesmax,

24/12/2007 10:14:03
why oh why do we have to wait for Scotland to become a self ruled country?We are not a slave nation to the English or Westminster!Come on the SNP stand fast and stand strong lets have self rule now!!!! and then we can pass the laws we see fit for our nation.Scotland does not have to go cap´in hand to Westminster to beg for the crumbs we sometimes get throwen,let Scotland rise up like the proud and strong nation we are and take controll of our own fate.
47

Mcsnagpile,

24/12/2007 11:07:53
From bored, empty headed youth the Lord deliver us.
If the history of humanity is anything to go by, we will soon be giving them something better than air rifles to use.
48

Homo Sapiens,

24/12/2007 11:19:25
"potentially damaging to create a situation in which the entire body of firearms law in Scotland could differ from that in England and Wales. There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals exploiting any differences."

What a bogus argument... seems to me that we already have many laws which differ between the two jurisdictions, Family Law is just one example... Yet no one at the Home Office seems to be bothered by the fact that women can abduct children from the English Jurisdiction to Scotland (and the other way around) with impunity! This is a simple power play by Westminster, which could result in more blameless victims.
49

Steve,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 11:28:24
There's no impedement to cross border movement across most of Europe, JACQUIE! That's how we're awash with firearms in the first place. But it doesn't make it right. Lets just do nothing then. Lets sell hand grenades in Sainsbury's. Crack in Tescos.

After all, it's not the weapon that injures people, it's the person. Well, that's the argument being punted by some people here.
50

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 11:30:51
Utterly disgraceful.Little Andrew Morton's family must be devastated.The sooner we break free from Westminster, the better.Let's have a six-month amnesty then ban all air weaponry except in the farming industry and in other carefully-controlled situations , possibly including funfairs where the weapons are chained to the shooting gallery for additional safety (despite the fact the guns never did shoot straight in my experience!).
51

FrankyB,

What a load of cobblers... 24/12/2007 11:33:56
"have been rebuffed by the Home Office"

Note the use of 'rebuffed' as though the Home Office was defending itself against us!

This paper is crap!
52

Miss Jean Brodie,

24/12/2007 11:39:08
If the ban is decided because of the statistical figures on deaths - let’s Put a ban to ALCOHOL first!
53

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 24/12/2007 11:43:25
As a parent of a child who was at Dunblane Primary the day Thomas Hamilton wrecked havoc leaving a bloody stain on many people lives I believe it is stupid to have one law north and one law south of the border on this issue. Do you think the people of Hungerford wouldn't also support such a proposal? Certainly campaign for a ban for the whole country (I mean the UK)that would draw on the support of all in society regardless of political agendas.

This looks to me like another area the SNP and Salmond wants to highlight in order to achieve his goal of separation from the rest of the UK - thats his selfish agenda we know but he really should choose his ground with greater sensitivity.
54

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 11:45:33
"There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals exploiting any differences."
Is it right to assume that all of mainland Europe has harmonised gun law as they have open borders ?
55

MtnKat,

Santa's Sleigh 24/12/2007 11:47:30
Yes, Santa, I agree. Lump o coal in Jaqui's stocking. How many is that now? Let's see, Wendy, Gordy, Dougie, two Jacqui's, Tony........................too many to count.

Cease fire everyone. It's Christmas and I wish you all a safe and joyous one.

56

seaweasel,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 11:48:44
Actually Calum, there are a lot of people who would oppose an outright ban on airguns and it is certainly not above politics. A poorly thought out blanket ban would simply be towing the tabloid line, however I received a letter from Kenny Macaskill on the subject and while it was a bit vague, he said that the Scottish Government are wanting to be able to legislate on this in order to look into the existing laws and try to implement a wholesale improvement.

If done properly, this could be a good thing, as current legislation regarding airguns, from Airsoft guns (used in a sport similar to paintball) to potentially dangerous powerful air weapons, can be vague. Any legitimate user of guns falling under the legislation will welcome anything that restricts their accessibility to criminals, however we must also remember that the UK has some of the toughest firearms legislation in the world, and the vast majority of crimes are perpetrated with illegal weapons, including the tragic killing of Andrew Morton. What I find sickening is the use of this poor boy's death by the tabloids to sell papers. After all, given that his killer was sold drugs by his mother, killed the boy with an illegal weapon, and was convicted under existing legislation, it is not an ideal case to use to justify new laws. At worst, banning airguns will drive criminals to increase their use of real (illegal) firearms, and at best, a lot of resources will be used to effectively tidy up existing legislation, with no discernible changes for the general public.

What would be far more useful is tackling the causes of these crimes and cracking down on irresponsible retailers. It is far easier (and cheaper) to properly enforce existing laws that create new ones.


57

TSynicto the core,

Saltireland 24/12/2007 11:52:48
More proof that we won't have a real parliament until we kick the Labour framed Scotland Bill back over the border and tell Brown in explicit terms what he can do with it.
58

Memyself&I,

24/12/2007 12:20:19
#46 "AM2 in his usual pompous condescending manner tells us that air gun accidents are 'very rare.
"

Its very odd how so many SNP keyboard terrorists such as yourself can take offence from a post not intended to offend. Perhaps its because its AM2 that was posting?

As Miss Jean Brodie pointed out at #13, should this really be top priority?

59

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 12:24:20
Why do they have to ban everything? Is that really the solution---to restrict the actions of the responsible majority during the process of attempting (and that's all it would be) to control the idiot minority?

When we were kids, some of us had air rifles and we used them to shoot vermin such as pigeons, or to shoot targets. I personally used to love going to my Aunt's place in the Welsh countryside and to shoot rabbits. I was taught how to do it properly, including how to paunch and skin them. The land owner was happy as I was keeping the rabbit population down and my family was happy because they had a steady supply of rabbits for their freezers.

It seems that bans are the only language politicians understand nowadays. It seems to matter not a jot to them that they are riding roughshod through everyone's rights and ruining people's lives.

I'm glad that Westminster threw this into touch. I only wish they'd thrown other things into touch, like the hunting ban, the mobile phone in cars ban and of course the smoking ban.
60

Highland Mighty,

24/12/2007 12:31:12
Why ban airguns now?

They've been used to kill, what, three people in EIGHT years and there are already tough new laws in place.

What are the SNP going to clamp down on next? How about banning buildings with two or more floors so no-one will die falling out a window? How about banning overhead power lines to stop brain tumours? How about banning mobile phones for the same reasons?

Cars? Trains? Flying? Bicycles? Skateboards? Walking on mountains?

These have all killed and injured far more people than air-guns.

Of course they certainly should ban the two biggest killers in society - alcohol and tobacco.
61

Steve,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 12:38:08
Erm...

Because bicycles aren't designed for SHOOTING?
Let's just hand out guns to kids at the school gates.
After all, they are no more dangerous than skateboards.
Well?
62

yockel,

Green Hills 24/12/2007 12:49:38
Alex Salmond appears to be doing a reasonable job with the material available to him within that assemblage of ex-Councilors which likes to style itself a parliament at the foot of the Mile but MacAskill is a liability and Mr S would be well advised to get rid of him before he really lands the party in it. Tabloid response politics is the last thing Scotland needs now, its one of the features of the UK we are pretty well all fed up with.
#69 Sorry Steve, Boness but the modern UK non FAC air rifle in no more designed to kill anyting than a tin of beans and I know which I would rather have available in a tight corner.
63

Denise,

Shetland 24/12/2007 13:08:54
Why is there a need for air rifles in the first place? They can blind people or worse. What's the fascination with guns? All these people defending the use of air guns to the hilt, I'm sure you are very responsible citizens, but there are lots and lots of people who are not. They must be the weapon of choice for thugs everywhere. The amount of pets injured, and dead birds, is reason enough for me to ban them. If you desperately want to shoot something, buy a Playstation!
64

Calum10,

24/12/2007 13:15:43
The most recent independent survey showed that eight out of 10 Scots supported a ban on airguns.

"Andrew's Law" didn't go far enough, the families of people killed and seriously injured by air guns said so publicly, and even the Daily Retard who campaigned in the recent past for an all-out ban recognised that.

An all-out ban is perfectly doable in Scots law, and MSPs who support a ban will find that the Scottish public are right behind them.

My advice to MSPs is tell the Home Office and the Scotland Office to back off. Tell them we are doing this in memory of a wee boy.
65

yockel,

Green Hills 24/12/2007 13:20:35
#72 Yes air weapons may be pretty poinless and a ban of all things pointless including televisions, religion, NEETs and plastic toys should be welcome by all. Only trouble is who has any right to tell me what is pointless to me?
As for "weapon of choice for thugs," no stupidity is their weapon of choice.
66

Memyself&I,

24/12/2007 13:22:06
#74 What would you like them to ban after they are done with air rifles?
Serious question.
Just how much freedom do you want to give away?

BTW. I don't have an air rifle, never had one and don't think I'll ever feel the need to have one. I'm also a non smoker so none of the recent bans or intended bans would affect me in any way.
67

yockel,

24/12/2007 13:25:19
Just wondering, has the Met by any chance killed more folk than Scottish owned air weapons and what about Wendy Alexander would you trust her with one? She might shoot her self in the foot, poor wee lamb.
68

overton,

Balmedie 24/12/2007 13:25:49
72 Denise,Shetland:

You'd be better banning all your pet cats because they are the ones that kill all the song birds.

Responsible people should be allowed guns and rifles as per the requirements of the law as it stands.
69

Denise,

Shetland 24/12/2007 13:26:22
#75, dont you think that even by reducing the amount of hand guns in circulation, there is less risk to the public? Even a blind man (blinded in a freak air gun accident) couls see that.
70

yockel,

24/12/2007 13:28:08
#79 And the RSPB they are the ones promoting raptors at the expense of all else.
71

Denise,

Shetland 24/12/2007 13:29:45
#77 I think guns of any description should not be available to anyone without a very good reason. They are not toys, and shouldn't be treated as toys.
72

yockel,

24/12/2007 13:34:06
#82 Denise Shetland. The non availablility of guns to anyone without good reason is fine and very different from a ban and ban hysteria. You are clearly making the point that this is not a rational discussion. Jaquie Smith's recent gun clamp down involving 1000 officers across England netted 1290 imitation guns, i.e. toys. How daft does this subject have to get?
73

overton,

aberdeen 24/12/2007 13:34:11
80 Denise,Shetland:

The only hand guns in circulation are illegal ones since hand guns were banned in the UK around 10 years ago.
74

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/12/2007 14:29:43
#77:

"I'm also a non smoker so none of the recent bans or intended bans would affect me in any way."

Are you a drinker? If so, be prepared to have that either banned or seriously curtailed in the near future.

As Chairman Gordon correctly points out, the only effect that the ban on handguns had after Dunblane is that it ruined the pastime of a great many gun enthusiasts, not to mention causing problems for our Olympic shooting team.

None of those people it affected would have dreamed of going into a school and shooting the place up. The bloke who did that would have had a huge collection of arms and ammo in any case, whether or not he was allowed to legally. The fact that he had a certificate was probably more or less co-incidence anyway. He was a nutter.

If the handgun ban worked (note: you can still legally own a rifle or shotgun, which can also kill) then why is it that there are so many incidents involving handguns nowadays?

The only thing that this knee-jerk ban managed to achieve is to spoil people's fun. It certainly had no effect whatsoever on gun crime.

...In the same way that the smoking ban has had no effect n the health of non-smokers.

...In the same way that the hunting ban has given no benefit to the countryside (in fact it has had the opposite effect).

...In the same way that the mobile phone ban in cars has had no effect on road safety.

Need I continue?

Bans are mindless actions, supported by the unthinking and implimented by the uncaring.
75

Braan Seer,

Loch Sloy 24/12/2007 14:48:07
#3. The sad wanquer does not sleep, like the one that thinks he's a chairman he has delusions of relevance they are the worst case of denial paranoia and schizophrenia on these forums. It appears to have escaped their red rimmed beady encrusted eyes that we now have a SNP Scottish Government, they have not been to sleep since May 3rd. and now appear to have lost any plot they thought they had.
Alex Salmond is blazing a trail through UK politics to freedom for our nation. The demented unionists are now so crazed with terror that their insane leader Maggie Broon has withdrawn into his Downing St bunker and will not even speak to Alex Salmond the legitimate First Minister of Scotland. You expect that kind of demented behaviour from the leader of India to the leader of Pakistan who are sworn enemies, but within the UK?
Is this the correct way for a grown up man to behave and the Catholic turncoat Blair has never yet spoken to Salmond. One thing is certain their behaviour has put the final nail in the coffin of the bloody union. Leaders of nations behave this way when they are at war, are we at war?
Are we to see another war between Scotland and England?
They are doing all the right things to make it that way.
Salmond has left them all gasping for breath, Scotland will be independent within 5 years and leave the UK in their dust.
76

Braan Seer,

24/12/2007 14:48:52
PM BROWN REFUSES TO TALK TO FIRST MINISTER



Gordon Brown

Monday December 24,2007
Have your say(1)
PRIME Minister Gordon Brown was yesterday accused of being “stuck in the Downing Street bunker” after it emerged he has not spoken to First Minister Alex Salmond since August.

A source close to Mr Salmond said all personal communication has stopped with the Scottish leader’s phone calls going unanswered.

And it was claimed the Prime Minister has also failed to respond to a letter sent by the SNP leader more than four months ago asking him to look at restoring regular meetings with the devolved administration.

A Scottish Government source said: “Gordon Brown seems to be stuck in the Downing Street bunker.

“He isn’t being communicative, but I suspect that isn’t unique to Scotland and applies to all the devolved administrations and Whitehall departments.

“The First Minister wrote to the Prime Minister back in early August about reviving the Joint Ministerial Committees, which has gone unanswered.”

The two men staged their first public handshake when they met in Belfast for a meeting of the British Irish Council in July.

At the time, Mr Brown insisted he looked forward to working with Mr Salmond, despite an acrimonious election campaign.

That was in contrast to Tony Blair who never even spoke to the SNP leader to congratulate him on becoming First Minister.

However, Scottish Government sources claim the First Minister no longer receives any direct communications and was not informed about HM Revenue and Customs losing the personal data of 25million people.

77

Braan Seer,

24/12/2007 14:49:35
http://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/29376/PM-Brown-refuses-to-talk-to-First-Minister
78

Braan Seer,

Correction for #87 24/12/2007 14:52:50
#3. The sad wanquer does not sleep, like the one that thinks he's a chairman he has delusions of relevance they are the worst case of denial paranoia and schizophrenia on these forums. It appears to have escaped their red rimmed beady encrusted eyes that we now have a SNP Scottish Government. These unionist troll's not been to sleep since May 3rd. and now appear to have lost any plot they thought they had.
Alex Salmond is blazing a trail through UK politics to freedom for our nation. The demented unionists are now so crazed with terror that their insane leader Maggie Broon has withdrawn into his Downing St bunker and will not even speak to Alex Salmond the legitimate First Minister of Scotland. You expect that kind of demented behaviour from the leader of India to the leader of Pakistan who are sworn enemies, but within the UK?
Is this the correct way for a grown up man to behave and the Catholic turncoat Blair has never yet spoken to Salmond. One thing is certain their behaviour has put the final nail in the coffin of the bloody union. Leaders of nations behave this way when they are at war, are we at war?
Are we to see another war between Scotland and England?
They are doing all the right things to make it that way.
Salmond has left them all gasping for breath, Scotland will be independent within 5 years and leave the UK in their dust.
79

kimba,

24/12/2007 15:05:02
please get your facts right, salmond and the snp have NO jurisdiction over firearms,he has exceeded his authority.
80

cataibh,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 15:15:56
25# There is a ban on DRINK driving, some people still drink and drive. Based on your post the drink driving ban should be removed.
81

Ross Fyffe,

Scotand 24/12/2007 15:37:30
OK for the gun control lobby lets take this slowly, after Dunblane there was a HANDGUN ban and it did not work. the number of deaths/woundings by illegally held handguns has gone up since all the LEGALLY held handguns were removed. So the BAN DID NOT WORK!!!!!!!

Ban scum who cannot be parents from being parent would be a better idea,

82

TSynicto the core,

Saltireland 24/12/2007 15:39:53
To my comment (63) add Westminster's blocking of John Swinney's sensible plan to replace their rip-off PFI (Profit For Investors)where eg their costed £184m Edinburgh Royal Infirmary will cost we taxpayers over £1billion after thirty years rental. All Labour's quoted costs are what they cost the consortiums of contractors and financiers to build to rent out on long contracts.
A simple way to look at PFI. For every pound that goes into a PFI construction two,three, four or five goes into investor's pockets. It's such a profitable rip-off that firms with PFI contracts are quoted on the Stock Exchange.
83

Stephen101,

Any chance of an answer? 24/12/2007 16:35:48
#52 AM2

A direct question AM2, but no answer forthcoming. Zero would be acceptable, but I will leave the choice up to you, and then we can debate the merits or otherwise of your answer.

As ever AM2 you are floundering when an opinion rather than a statistic is called for.
84

WRMSD,

San Diego 24/12/2007 16:36:26
Hmmm....#11 Miss Jean Brodie - please supply a link to this quote from Jefferson that does NOT come from a right wing/gun nut organization. It does not sound terribly 18th Century Jefferson to me...

I tried a number of non-political quotation sites on the internet, and none of them attributed this to Jefferson. But I will be delighted to be corrected.
85

WL,

livingston 24/12/2007 16:38:50
That means that all deaths resulting from the use of firearms are the responsibility of the Westminster government.
86

WRMSD,

San Diego 24/12/2007 16:46:22
...just wanted to add to my comment above that I am personally somewhat skeptical of the effect of banning airguns, but I am equally appalled and bemused living in the US re the knee-jerk reaction in some parts of the political spectrum here to any form of sane firearms controls. Yes, yes, I know there's a 2nd Amendment, but I don't think the Founding Fathers envisioned the easy access to a disturbing array of lethal weapons, capable of killing many people in a few seconds, by the civilian populace.
87

yockel,

24/12/2007 16:51:34
#98 Possibly
88

yockel,

Green Hills 24/12/2007 17:00:01
Who cares what Jefferson may or may not have said. If you want an Englishman's observations on disarming the populace read Dr Johnston, freely available on the web. Unionists may be surprised.
89

cataibh,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 17:10:51
94# But the same argument can be used for the Drink driving ban, people still drink and drive. It is against the law to drink and drive. It is also against the law to have an illegal handgun. Airguns should be banned unless a person is legally licenced to use one and then should be ruthlessly controlled. Why do people want airguns?
90

McGinty,

24/12/2007 17:49:04
Dear AM2,
I posted this question yesterday but you never responded, maybe you never saw it, so I'll reiterate. Are you actually a supporter of a party or are you just taking a stance against the SNP? Presumably there's always a case for supporting an opposition, as healthy democracy depends on a balance of power. I never read your comments before the Scottish election campaign so I don't know if you were as critical of labour when they were in power as you are of the SNP. Every party needs its critics, but in terms of policy , what's the point, as ideologically, especially in terms of economics, both parties seem pretty similar. Or is it just the independence issue? If that's the case, then I hope you spend as much time criticizing certain Westminster based parties for being as London-centric as any party here is Scotland-centric. Seems to me that the opposition, especially Labour and the Libdems need criticizing as much as the SNP? I look forward to hearing from you.
Merry Christmas.
91

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 24/12/2007 18:08:51

#107

"I'm not a supporter of any particular party. Nor am I "taking a stance against the SNP", except in respect of their independence agenda, to which I am intractably opposed."

Michty me, that's not how the majority on here see it, old crocus. You appear to see secret independence plans in every piece of legislation that the SNP Govt proffer and attack accordingly.

Yuletide felicitations to you and yours.
92

cataibh,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 18:21:51
68# Why do people need airguns?
93

Longbranchlady,

Clay City, IL USA 24/12/2007 18:37:32
The man is sentenced to life for killing the poor kid and he has to serve only 13 years before he can start applying to be released? That is a travesty. Life in prison should mean just exactly what it says, no questions, no deals, no nothing. Maybe if a prison sentence really meant what it implied people wouldn't need legislation on airguns, handguns, rifles, or knives. People would understand that they had to pay for the crimes they commit.
94

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfropolis 24/12/2007 18:38:41
# 109

"
Who cares how the "majority" in here see it"

Obviously you do dear boy, why else would you be swanning around here like AM2's long lost love lorn puppy?

Toodle pips. X
95

cataibh,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 18:59:47
111# How many people have been killed or maimed in the past five years with people pouring forth arrows in a built up area?
96

stonepark,

Ayrshire 24/12/2007 19:23:34
lets see.......

Air soft gun 3 ft lbs energy
Air Pistol 6 ft lbs energy
Airgun 12 ft lbs energy
Catapult 20 ft lbs energy
Bow 100 ft lbs energy
22 Rimfire 100 ft lbs energy
Shotgun 1000 ft lbs energy
223 (Fox) Rifle 1750 ftlbs energy
308 (Deer) Rifle 2700 ft lbs energy
97

Trade-wind,

USA 24/12/2007 20:47:28
Sandra:
I would have to have your email address. Just so you know, that was not a snow job. It was serious concern
for you and any other human being so harassed. Who is
this Horrendicoot individual. Have you indeed been to the authorities, or do you just think they will not help
so you don't bother? Carry a sign outside the local police station and invite the press. If they are not investigating your complaint the negative publicity might get action.
Merry Christmas.
98

Kristian.,

Moved back home to Yorkshire. 24/12/2007 21:17:58
There is a difference, between taking people down, and taking them out. Taking people down, comes with a bit of explaining. Taking people out does not ask any questions, and does not enter into conversation, it is just a threat, and then, bang. No firearms, please. It is, after all what we are famous for. Full stop.
99

Trade-wind,

USA 24/12/2007 21:22:15
Please hold it a minute...........Take a breath and use your heads. I do not need a knife, an airgun, shotgun pistol or any other weapon to kill you. You can be killed with a rubberband. Do you want to ban them?
It is not the weapon that kills, never has been, its people who use them to kill that are the problem. Ban them! Now this is serious discussion ban killers take them off the streets and crush them as you would airguns. Problem solved.... wrong but its a start.
Scotland today, Scotland tomorrow, Scotland forever.
Merry Christmas
100

Stephen101,

Keep on topic matey 24/12/2007 21:59:02
AM2 "You contrived your question so as to make it unanswerable"

Not unanswerable. We have guns which are manufactured to kill. How many innocent children should die at the hands of people carrying guns before we should ban them?

Straight question. Straight answer.

Spin all you want, but if you don't want to answer in public, just say so.

But don't be so self righteous about it as well please.


101

Ken,

24/12/2007 22:23:05
Listen to a secret!! sssheee, Am2 is a unionist, everything he/she sais is biast towards unionism, ie Scotland and its people are controlled by Westminster politics.
Now, re the firearms, yes I do think that the whole purpose of devolution was to make local laws for local problems an this is one. Independence will follow, that is obvious, but in the time being lets try to get powers for this country that will help its situation. Airguns are one of them.
Merry Christmas
102

scoobie,

ici! 24/12/2007 22:43:35
There are lots of other dangerous things in society which can be made worse if coupled with air weapons to say the least. Drugs are a key element in the misuse of any weapon. Some drug users, including alcohol, keep them for their amusement and if others know this they will pressure the individual to surrender their weapon which can in fact result in the air weapon being used against a person. I have noted that, since early child hood that adults are not above putting children forward to receive the worst from such a venture, the thinking being cowardly, that the child is innocent and amongst the most vulnerable in society so if you take a shot at the child and strike your arguments against those who incited that and a collection of other incidents including your misuse of drugs will do little to help you. so therefor the instigators walk victoriously at the expense of a child. Gun laws should remain as they are or improve as it is societies conduct that should change. Some people know the worth of such an implement for survival sports especially if the TV says to all us voters fat people can't hunt. I would use humane traps to catch animals for whatever reason but a weapon which fires a missile can give you opportunities on the move if you are not even allowed to use nets for ground animals. Which makes sense if you cannot harvest them in the day they were set. I have seen people who are drug addicts and "others" with air weapons and paint ball guns.!!!
103

wee willie 2,

Pickering, Ontario, Canada 24/12/2007 22:50:24
Just stumbled across this discussion, here in Canada, we have just had one of the worst years for gun violence in Toronto area, 89 dead as of yesterday in Toronto. Not as bad as Detroit with weel over 300 killed. But bad enough. Most of those killed were gang members, and most of them shot, a woman was even hurt on Thursday by gunmen firing shots at each other on the expressway. About one third of the dead were in their teens! Pretty sad, having lived here for over 40 years. Lived in Scotland for 23 years before immigrating here. But I have seen the decline in Scotland for many years now, no respect for anyone by the younger generation. Have to be carefull when you go into town now.
104

scoobie,

ici! 24/12/2007 22:55:23
Air weapons are OK in the country or for vermin in the towns and city if you need it. It would be better than an actual fire arm.
105

scoobie,

ici! 24/12/2007 23:01:06
If you own or intend to purchase an air weapon or fire arm declare it to no one, in my case not even family and that is the truth there interests are very different from mine but not, if you see #127, most folks these days and most other days before. Not much changes and retro fashion designers keep coming back.
106

scoobie,

ici! 24/12/2007 23:05:43
Hit and run the subject is more volatile and may become politically ballistic and lose it's sensibilities.
107

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 24/12/2007 23:49:15
Stephen 101, Contradicting the great AM2 is not allowed you know, it's against the rules and by the way, he sets all the rules.

Once you rememeber these simple truths you will sleep much easier at nights.

As for the article, some folk on here have shown that they are able to argue both sides of the debate with some skill, it's just a pity that we can not decide it for ourselves in Scotland.

Hopefully one day soon.

Anyway, to all the usual contestants, merry christmas, and that includes the great man himself.

By the way for those of you who asked for a christmas special in the AM2 family saga, it can now be found here.
http://ochones.blogspot.com/2007/12and-truth-shall-set-ye-free.html


Nite, nite



108

cataibh,

Bo'ness 24/12/2007 23:58:59
To all Nationalists and Unionists where ever you are::
Nollaig chridheil agus Bliadhna mhath ur.
109

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 01:58:12
Ken you asked .........."We have guns which are manufactured to kill. How many innocent children should die at the hands of people carrying guns before we should ban them?"

As many as it takes to let guns do their job keeping us safe, safe from terrorists, safe from armed criminals and safe from armies who want to take away my Country
110

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 02:04:27
to be absolutely correct by the way Ken unless hit herd over the head by one, guns do not kill, the projectile or in simpler terms the bullet when well placed (by accident or intention) kills by shock and asociated trauma.
111

A Better Way,

25/12/2007 02:08:25
Watch Alex's message to Scotland. Pity the BBC/STV didnt list it on their site.http://www.youtube.com/scotexec
112

Ross Fyffe,

25/12/2007 02:23:11
138 I watched it and ............ pleasant, polite, no lies, mentioned the Islamic terror attepmt at Glasgow Airport, mentioned the word Christmas once, and showed the Cross of St Andrew in the background emphasising that Scotland is a Christian country (for now)
113

Ross Fyffe,

correction 25/12/2007 02:25:14
138 I watched it and ............ pleasant, polite, no lies, mentioned the alleged terror attempt at Glasgow Airport, mentioned the word Christmas once, and showed the Cross of St Andrew in the background emphasising that Scotland is a Christian country (for now)
114

morris,

edinburgh 25/12/2007 06:18:17
Westminster rides roughshod over the Scots parliament's desire to introduce legislation, which would better everybody ,is according to AM2
"SNP's so-called promise to ban them was just another they were in no position to keep".
Only you could see a positive side for Westminster there. Keep it up/the last thing we want is that you retain any credibility,and you certainly dont with that comment!

Nevertheless MERRY XMAS
115

morris,

edinburgh 25/12/2007 06:30:00
6

I think you make the most pertinent point possible here!
Subservience and devolution where it suits Westminster is what we have.

This is power retained,not power devolved at all,because that which is devolved is only camouflage to hide the true position.

One thing for sure though. Gordon Broon looks more like a modern day "Toom Tabard" than I ever dreamed possible, and his Normandy is not far away!
116

Stephen101,

25/12/2007 08:42:06
AM2 starts the thread with "Airgun accidents are thankfully very rare"

Who is talking about accidents? Some people with guns shoot others deliberately. So where does 'accident' come from? Spinning again?

And still you cannot answer a straight question. Ross Fyffe does through (#136) even though he thinks I am Ken. Ross obviously knows what guns are for.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Is that an attempt at being supercilious (again)?

And looking for the verdict of the Chief Police Officers before you have a view, is a committee man in live action.

Somehow AM2 you are the Steve Davis of these forums. "Interesting, very interesting". But not really...

117

BK,

Cyberspace 25/12/2007 10:14:55
I hope when the next killing by air gun happens, Ms Smith will visit the bereaved family and tell them that the death of their loved one was not not in vain - it enabled Herr to score we cheap point in petty party politics against the SNP.
118

Publius,

London 25/12/2007 11:07:55
Merry to Christmas to everybody.
I'm actually in my office 'working'. Somebody has to be here to respond to any incoming business calls, emails etc - except that I have had only one since 7 am! Anyway I'll be home in Scotland for an extended New Year.
Interesting story about airguns. One or two points:
(1) Deaths by handguns have gone up since handguns were banned altogether, almost certainly because guns have gone underground. Banning airguns might have the same effect. All hasty legislation has unanticipated and unsought consequences. Politicians should be able to anticipate the consequences of driving airguns underground even if they don't seek them. BK - #146 - and others take note
(2) Children are at much greater risk from being knocked down and killed by a car/lorry/bus or being killed by their mother's 'partner' than by airguns. The UK has one of the highest pedestrian casualty rates in the developed world - and one of the highest incidence of broken families. Perhaps the politicians should worry more about these than airguns.
(3) To imply that either Westminster or Holyrood (or Labour or the SNP) is knowingly supporting the murder of children by airguns is despicable politics - by both sides.
119

Stephen101,

And the subject is...? 25/12/2007 11:47:55
AM2 (#148 and many others).

Straight question. Straight answer. Easy really. However you choose to bring in comments off topic. 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" et al.

Suggest you examine the fallacy of ad hominem and how you might achieve more by dealing with the subject, not the messenger.

It may also mean that others might pay attention to what you were saying rather than the fact that it comes from AM2 and all the baggage associated with that label.

Let that be one of your resolutions for 2008.




120

Ken Rogers,

Wivenhoe. Essex. 25/12/2007 12:17:45
Airguns are dangerous and offensive weapons, lives are lost, eyes are lost and other injuries can occur plus trauma at being threatened or shot at.

The Scottish Government are to be congratulated at the proposal for legislation to ban air-weapons. Airweapns serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

The UK Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith has again been incorrectly advised.

Ken Rogers. MA(Criminology).FIISec.MIIRSM. former police officer.
121

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 12:36:05
Introduce a compulsory two years of "survival training" for teenagers with lead to the military for those who wish to continue in the army, giving a populace with more common sense and a respect for all instruments of hunting, pest control and war.
This would generally result in folk more capable of going out into the world with real confidence, as the heavens are you canopy.

I believe the Swiss have it sussed, their families are a armed and from an early age are taught the respect of arms, They have the lowest gun crime in europe and have the important advantage that they can defend themselves if aggressors step over the line. The populace is the potential army.



122

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 12:43:27
148AM2,Glasgow 25/12/2007 11:02:28
"Any of you crazy nats want to meet later in no man’s land for a game of footy? ;-)"
This comment tells you all you will ever need to know about AM2, perpetually warring, well, on the propaganda side of things.
123

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 12:57:01
Ken Rogers,Wivenhoe. Essex. 25/12/2007 12:17:45
"Airweapns serve no useful purpose whatsoever."

Oh dear another nanny state advocate.

They have purpose and serve purpose.

If you have vermin problems, a good airgun is a necessity, indeed a small bore rifle, plenty farmers and country folk all over Britain would agree with me on that.

Certainly, using the vernacular, "bams" should not be allowed any type of gun as they are incapable of excersising good judgment. Out right banning is not the solution, neither is expensive licensing. Please see Post 153 and appreciate a longer term solution to do with education.
This does not mean the real need for these tools should be taken away from those who use them responsibly.

124

,

25/12/2007 13:21:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
125

,

25/12/2007 13:48:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

The Strategist,

25/12/2007 13:48:51
#154 Ard Righ

I share your concern that AM2 could well be a football supporter!

Have a great day everyone..
127

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 14:29:35
157 Southern Patriot,Garland 25/12/2007 13:48:07

Yes, imagine how the Indian tribes think of you white settlers ruining the land and creating horrific de-based societies.

You anglo-americans are the occupiers in America, you would be wise to remember that.
128

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 14:49:49
All the above defines the real need for independence for our own operations, control over our own resources, control over our media, control over our own borders and Extra Regio Territories.
Our own army, our own energy, our own direction. Our own trade. Our own infrastructure, our parliament.

ONE PROSPEROUS SCOTLAND
RUN BY INTELLIGENT SCOTS
WITH THEIR EYE ON THE BIGGER PICTURE.
129

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 15:00:08
EMERGENCY INDEPENDENCE VOTE MAY 2008

IMMEDIATE INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM.


Independence from the English Parliament.

Independence from American Military Installations

Independence from the European Union

Independence from Non Governmental Organisations(NGO's)

Declare Neutrality

Control our own Resources

Man a 350/400 mile sea boundary, taking back all.

Re-establish the trade routes.


WE WILL GET ON WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY on an International footing.

Happy solstice and Hogmanay.
130

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburgh 25/12/2007 15:54:13
160 and 161

Sadly, you sound just like Robert Mugabe. i.e. 'We need control over everything so that we can mess it up if we wish!'
People like you do the Nats no favours......
131

BMCG,

25/12/2007 15:54:35
AM2 - why are weapons needed at all?
132

langtonian,

scotus 25/12/2007 16:32:34
#Niggle, Niggle, Niggle, typical example of First Minister interferance
133

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 17:10:41
Bannockburn 25/12/2007 15:58:23
#161-
"The solstice was four days ago. News a bit slow in your ivory tower, is it?"

Brain not working in your unionist pit?
I know fine when the solstice is, that was a general statement of good will, frumpy pig plop.

Evidently you don't know the difference between the calendrical or astronomical, these formers being the prerequisite to understanding the finer points of siderial time and the precesion of the equinoxes.

That is what our culture is based upon, yet you couldn't fathom that one either.

My realist and eminently resourceful and practical experience tells me INDEPENDENCE IS A NECESSITY, NOT AN OPTION.

Colonial unionism is a dinosaur engulfed by a black cloud of certain failure.

134

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 17:15:21
62
Tatties ower the side,
Johannesburgh 25/12/2007 15:54:13

In case you hadn't noticed were on an island at the edge of a huge land mass at the top of area no-one currently gives a s*** about.
I do and so do all the natives here and WE WILL CONTROL OUR OWN AFFAIRS.

Not your planted scum union pig.
135

Highland Mighty,

25/12/2007 17:15:39
#161 "Independence from NGO's!"

Yeah, I hate the RSPCA, Oxfam, the Red Cross and their kin.

Get them out of Scotland now!

(Y'idiot!)
136

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 17:32:24
169 Highland Mighty,25/12/2007 17:15:39

I was thinking of a certain organisation that is in the process of attempting to levy a tax burden on every barrel of oil that comes out of the earth for every country involved and to retain our sovereignty on our oil.

I'll amend charities into NGO's
137

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 25/12/2007 17:35:04
Handbags at dawn?

Pistols, sounds so much better.
138

Queen D,

Glasgow 25/12/2007 17:57:33
Ard Righ,'frumpy pig plop'??
I like it !!
Just stuffed myself full to bursting!
Happy Christmas everyone!
139

The H,

AYTON 25/12/2007 19:37:03
It seems to me that the government in Westminster is treating the Parliament and Government in Edinburgh with comtempt, as an annoying inferior which can be disregarded at will because it, Westminster, knows best.
Politicians in Westminster forget, at their peril, that the Union is made up of two equal sovereign nation states, Scotland and England. Any decision made or view expressed, whether about Firearm Controls, oil and gas exploration in the Moray Firth or Fishing Conservation in Scottish Waters, in fact anything that relates to this realm of Scotland, should only be made the Parliament in Edinburgh.
Time and time again politicians in Westminster, regardless of party, have shown themselves to be only concerned with the South East of England unless, of course, it makes money for the Treasury, (Scottish oil), or can relieve the water shortages being experienced in the "Home Counties", (Scottish water).
140

Conan the Librarian™,

25/12/2007 21:00:29
Merry Christmas Everybody!

RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.