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Salmond rebuts 'arc of insolvency'

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Published Date: 13 October 2008
By Hamish Macdonell
Scottish Political Editor
ALEX Salmond insisted yesterday that Scotland would have been better off in the current economic crisis had it been independent.
The First Minister was responding to Labour claims that an independent Scotland would have experienced the sort of difficulties currently affecting Ireland, which is in a recession, and Iceland, which has had a banking meltdown.

Mr Salmond argued that Scotland would have been able to act quickly and decisively, like Ireland had done, to restore confidence in its banks, and might have been more like Norway, which is cushioned by a multi-billion-pound oil fund.

The argument was started by Jim Murphy, the new Scottish Secretary, who seized on remarks made by Mr Salmond several years ago when he praised Ireland, Iceland and Norway as the "arc of prosperity" and said Scotland should aspire to join that group.

Mr Murphy derided the three countries as the "arc of insolvency".

But Mr Salmond responded by insisting that Ireland and Iceland were not suffering because of their size, but because of the global crisis.



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1

Royster,

13/10/2008 00:16:09
Alex Salmond should resign and become a wet-nurse.
2

Cabbie,

Glenrothes 13/10/2008 01:13:42
Another doom and gloom story from the unionist, they never learn, do they?
The more they keep talking Scotland down the more the SNP gain.
3

aedis,

Glasgow 13/10/2008 01:15:24
Alex Salmond is right. Norway is riding this out much better than most other countries; even bailing out Icelandic banks out of courtesy!

We should be in the same position.

Instead, the recent World Economic Forum Executive Opinion Survey which measures how financially secure each nation's banks are put the UK at No. 44 in the world.

tinyurl.com/5485mp

Similar sized countries (to Scotland) like Sweden were 3rd, Denmark 5th.

Ireland is 9th, Norway is 15th.

Iceland with all its troubles have slipped down to 36th.

All still ahead of the UK.

As are Senegal, Botswana, Peru and El Salvador among others.

Go UK!!!!!!

Another Union dividend!
4

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 01:19:15
This too small to survive an economic crisis doesn't wash on two fronts.

1. Scotland is not yet Independent and therefore not yet in charge of all its resources, financial and otherwise. Holyrood doesn't yet have the mechanism of normal independent countries which are able to adjust quickly to any crisis which comes along.

2. Much larger countries, including the USA, Germany, France and of course the UK are also being tossed around like corks on the high seas.

These are unique, once in a lifetime circumstances and should no more be seen as a barrier to Scottish Independence than the threat of chemical or biological warfare.

As for Mr Murphy and others triumphantly holding up a near Scottish Banking disaster as a reason for sticking with the UK, that sir is dispicable.

Moreover those tired, threadbare arguments are not going down well with the voters as you Mr Murphy, Mr Brown and Mr Roy will see on November 6th.
5

James F,

East Ayr 13/10/2008 01:20:28
Already Jim Murphy is out of his depth. His suggestion that Scotland would have been in a worse state, had it been independent, is bizarre. Scotland has been bled dry of its oil wealth for the best part of 40 years by the leech that is Westmonster Raving Loony UK establishment. Ireland has no oil; Norway has plenty.

The comparison Jim Murphy meant to make (but couldn't find the necessary honesty) is between oil-rich Norway and potentially oil-rich Scotland. Norway is in a stronger position than the UK, Ireland and Iceland. The prospect of oil at $200 to $300 a barrel within the next few years makes it even more important for Scotland to grasp the mantle of independence sooner rather than later.
6

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 02:45:51
5 James F
If you make comparisons with another country you have to look at all aspects. Norway has an oil fund but it also has :
Income tax starting at 28% (UK20%)
Vat at 24% (UK 17.5%)
Vat at 12% on food (UK 0%)
7

Royster,

13/10/2008 02:50:56
Oil price heading down so outlook for Norway is not good as it is their only huge resource. Ireland deficit now 7% of GDP and rising. Ireland, like Iceland, is out of its depth and its policy bolis down to poncing off other EU nations by making promises it can't keep (like the bank deposit guarantee). Also, do you think an oil fund would be enough to stave off a banking crisis? Look at the billions needed. Salmond's answer that the crisis is to blame not the size of the country is laughable. Obviously, small countries cannot cope with big economic shocks because they are small.
8

Royster,

13/10/2008 02:50:57
Oil price heading down so outlook for Norway is not good as it is their only huge resource. Ireland deficit now 7% of GDP and rising. Ireland, like Iceland, is out of its depth and its policy bolis down to poncing off other EU nations by making promises it can't keep (like the bank deposit guarantee). Also, do you think an oil fund would be enough to stave off a banking crisis? Look at the billions needed. Salmond's answer that the crisis is to blame not the size of the country is laughable. Obviously, small countries cannot cope with big economic shocks because they are small.
9

Richardinho,

13/10/2008 02:56:46
#8 Maybe wait to see how the UK fares in this crisis before getting too smug.
10

Royster,

13/10/2008 03:05:53
#9. In the UK, there will be a reession because house prices got too high. That's usual in the UK where the housing market is the best way for most people to make money. However, it will not implode like Ireland's property market which has been living off ultra cheap euro loans for a decade. Ireland well and truly finished.
11

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 03:50:15
Salmond could not possibly admit he was wrong. Could he?

Scotland could not have survived the current crisis on its own.

The case for independence is now DEAD.
12

Forward not Back,

13/10/2008 03:59:03
There is so much drivel going on here about how an "independent" Scotland would have handled this situation.

For a start, Scotland wouldn't have had a separate currency. It would either be using sterling or the euro. So, if Salmond had guaranteed all deposits in the sterling zone, money would have rushed north from England. HOWEVER, this would have put the Scottish government on the hook for almost all the deposits in the UK. There is no evidence that Scotland could support this liability on its own. This is why Ireland came under intolerable pressure from Europe over its guarantee but it had to do it, otherwise their banks would now have disappeared, taking down large parts of their economy with it.

That said, to talk about this "arc of insolvency" is a nonsense as well. Iceland is broke because the whole economy was run like a hedge fund and hence that's why the whole country is broke. Ireland's problem is that it needed higher interest rates years ago but because it was locked into the Euro, it boomed too far, despite the attempts to control things by fiscal policy. As for Norway, it's in reasonably good shape and is in better shape than the whole UK - too many people are falling for the spin that Brown is leading the world out of this crisis when he led the UK INTO this crisis!
13

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 13/10/2008 05:07:05
#11 - Rufus T. Firefly -

"Scotland could not have survived the current crisis on its own."
Would you care to offer some proof of this assertion or expect people to believe you without any backing except your own opinion?


"The case for independence is now DEAD." I ask again: Would you care to offer some proof of this assertion or expect people to believe you without any backing except your own opinion?
14

Stepford Nat,

13/10/2008 06:02:17
Mr Slamond needs more respect than he is getting here. Remember he knows his stuff, having previously been an oily economist with Royal Bank of Scotland
15

Royster,

13/10/2008 06:06:38
#13. Have a vote. A 'Yes' vote and you get independence a 'No' vote and Holyrood is abolished.
16

John S,

13/10/2008 06:38:38
Norway's sovereign wealth fund grew to a preliminary $364.2 billion in August 08, which equates to approx $78,711 for every person living in Norway.
The initial investment of $300 million was made in the spring of 1996.
The fund invests Norway's oil and gas wealth in foreign stocks and bonds to save for future generations when the oil runs out and to shield the Norwegian economy and currency from the threat of overheating through huge oil income.
17

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 06:57:01
16 JohnS
As I pointed out in post 6, Norway has an oil fund but it also has very high levels of taxation. It can use yhe money from yaxation to fund its public services thus leaving oil revenues free to go into the oil fund. Are you advocating similar levels of taxation hers?
18

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 07:39:05
#13 Sierra, Scotland has less than 1 million tax payers. The UK has over 20 million.

Scotland could not have afforded to bail out the 2 Scottish banks, that is clear.

The UK can however due to its size and the level of taxation it can collect.

As for the case for independence, well do you still think its on track?

Nobody in their right mind would vote for independence in the current climate.
19

Royster,

13/10/2008 07:40:17
#16. Yes but that is all they have and its level depends on the market. Selling a big chunk of the assets at today's prices to buy out HBOS and RBS would wipe out a signifiant chunk in a week. Anyway, how much would an equivalent Scottish fund be assuming they had invested in the same assets (ie how big is Scotland's oil revenue relative to Norway's)?
20

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 13/10/2008 08:17:59
A financial crisis, and the Scottish unionist response is to squeal in terror and run to hide behind Daddy - the UK.

From any standpoint, Scotland would have handled this better if it had been an independent state, indeed, it is doubtful if we would have been in as big a mess in the first place. We are clearly not totally insulated from global financial catastrophes, but it is likely that, without the pernicious influence of the City of London and its gadarene pursuit of the second South Sea Bubble, the old Scottish virtues of caution and financial prudence would have shielded us from the worst effects.

I try to be objective and conciliatory in respect of other politicial viewpoints, but the contemptible instinct of our new, oleaginous Scottish Secretary to exploit the national difficulty makes my flesh crawl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUZYyxKE0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
21

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 08:18:01
I would presume that Brown would still consider bailing-out RBS and/or HBOS, whether Scotland was independent, or not. Presumably they would both still be trading on the LSE, and would still be doing hugh business south of the border.
22

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 08:30:22
#21 Peter Curran

It hasn't got anything to do with independence - that is a blinkered view. It is to do with government regulation and intervention, and that may or may not be better with independence.
23

Royster,

13/10/2008 08:32:11
#22. I thought Scotland was big enough to stand on its own two feet? I see you have adopted the nationalist 'poncing' option.
24

Linda,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 08:34:53
Brown and Darling to blame as their lax financial regulations allowed these Banks to over extend themselves. No Banking crisis in Norway and many other small independent countries.

Ireland has committed up to £320 billions to protect its Banking system so even if an independent Scotland had allowed Halifax to takeover Bank of Scotland it would have acted much earlier just like Ireland to save our biggest Banks.

Ireland acted quicker than UK to save its Banks.
25

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 13/10/2008 09:10:59
#18 "The oil is either British or Orkney/Shetlands' (since either of those islands want to be part of an independent Scotland)."

Still got nothing to offer the debate but groundless flat-out lies, I see.

#6 Makes a valid point - Blair and Brown encouraged us for years in the fantasy of a "low-tax" economy funded entirely on the imaginary money of house prices. But it's highly debatable that OVERALL Norwegians are taxed any more than us, and rather more pertinent is the fact that they don't feel the need too squander billions waving their c*cks around on the international stage with wars and nuclear weapons.

And of course, Norway is the best possible example of where Scotland COULD have been if we'd had the courage to be independent. Their oil fund will protect them against even the worst financial disasters for decades to come, whereas our "prudent" Chancellor didn't put a penny away for a rainy day when allegedly we were in the good times.
26

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:14:33
"The First Minister was responding to Labour claims that an independent Scotland would have experienced the sort of difficulties currently affecting Ireland, which is in a recession, and Iceland, which has had a banking meltdown."

What a crock of party political lying sh*te. If you want to compare the nearest example of an Independent nation to Scotland then its Norway not Ireland or Iceland or Greenland or Narnia or Middle Earth.
Neither Ireland nor Iceland has the same resources available to them as Scotland and Norway.
If you want to compare Ireland or Iceland with anybody then compare them to an Independent England or Wales countries with relatively litte or no resouces.
Its the same old story that Scotland is the only nation on the planet incapable of going it alone.
27

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 09:14:38
Scotland bears little resembalence to Norway, Iceland, or Ireland. The same can be said of Norway, Iceland, and Ireland. The comparison tirade is tiresome.

#25 Linda... No crisis in Irish banking, so there was no need for 320 billion? erm...
28

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 09:14:39
Scotland bears little resembalence to Norway, Iceland, or Ireland. The same can be said of Norway, Iceland, and Ireland. The comparison tirade is tiresome.

#25 Linda... No crisis in Irish banking, so there was no need for 320 billion? erm...
29

Marian,

13/10/2008 09:15:10
It is a sad day for Scotland when New Labour and its media acolytes first response to the unfolding tragic financial crisis hitting RBS and HBOS is to try and score cheap points against the SNP government of Scotland and its leader Alex Salmond. If these myopic unionists took the time to listen and understand what the SNP is about they would have realised that an independent Scotland would have been economically managed very similarly to Norway with its own long-term oil fund to backup its economy and as such would not have been suffering in the way that the UK is going to under the catastrophic errors that New Labour has made.

They should also be aware that there is overwhelming evidence that Gordon Brown has long been a worshipper of the unfettered activities of U.S. and U.K. financial institutions that Milton Friedman and Margaret Thatcher wrought upon the U.S. and U.K. economies, and that that it is ultimately his inaction as Chancellor in curbing these activities over the past 11 years that has led the UK into becoming the worst affected G7 economy after the U.S.A.
30

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 09:15:48
Norway is fine as are the other Scandinavian countries, Ireland is fine..UK going down the pan in debt.

Perhaps it is time to hand the UK over to Europe, the country clearly does not have a clue what it is doing; massive national debt to follow, increase in tax, slashed public spending and a recession in one of the worst performing countries in this crisis.

Better London hands over to Deutsch Bank and let them deal with it!

31

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:16:21
18

The only myth you have displayed on these blogs is the fact that youre a serious poster and not a sh*t stirring idiot of a troll.
32

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:18:56
28

Scotland has more or less the same population as Norway and more oil and gas resouces available to them.
Both countries also have pure water supplies and are in very good locations for wind and wave power.
In fact we have more similarities with Norway than any other nation on the planet.
33

Peter Curran,

13/10/2008 09:20:57
23 The Tin Man

I agree that it has to do with government intervention and regulation, and I believe that would have happened earlier and more effectively in an independent Scotland.

34

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:21:10
20

Well considering there are 250 production platforms in the UK sector of the North sea compared to 85 in the Norwegian why dont you work it out for yourself.
35

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 13/10/2008 09:26:14
23 The Tin Man

I accept that it is, in significant part, about government intervention and regulation, and I believe that would have happened earlier and more effectively in an independent Scotland. The creaking, dysfunctional behemoth that is the UK has lost its capacity to react effectively to events, together with any objectivity about the world it inhabits.

Scotland sees the world around it clearly, and knows what it must do, but it does not yet have the freedom it needs to implement its vision fully.
36

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 09:27:44
#33 superparcel

Norway is a post-agrarian society, Scotland is a post-industrail society. In that respect, we have more in common with the North of England (population distribution, infrastructure, political outlook, etc).

But you are correct that they are both northern countries with oil.
37

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 09:28:04
35 Parcel
"Well considering there are 250 production platforms in the UK sector of the North sea compared to 85 in the Norwegian why dont you work it out for yourself".

Not relevant - not all platforms produce the same amount of oil. Norway's oil production has been 40/50% higher than total UK production for the last 10 years. (source International Energy Authority). Of course you may not accept it and claim that the IEA is lying as you always do when any respected body comes out with info which does not suit your argument.
38

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:28:14
19

What is abundantly clearer every day is you are a lying torag of a troll nothing more.
The world is full of nations with similar populations to Scotland without our resources raising more than enough to get along just fine.
Denmark, Ireland, New Zealand, UAE, Singapore, Croatia, Slovakia, etc etc etc.
Why dont you try comming up with honest arguments for a change or is defending the impossible too much for you?
39

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 09:29:31
#36 Peter Curran

Maybe, maybe not. An Icelandic situation is just as possible, but it is still irrelevent.
40

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:30:05
38

The relevance is in the potential. Just because the UK government chooses not to produce from some platforms doesnt mean a Scottish Government wont choose to produce from them.
There isnt a single platform in the UK sector that isnt sitting on oil or gas just waiting to be exploited. Norway has its own national oil industry why cant an Independent Scotland?
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:32:54
38

Only according to the UK government and NOBODY ELSE.
The IAE gets their data and stats from the UK government and nowhere else as I have explained countless times on here already.

THERE IS ONLY ONE PHUQING SOURCE OF OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION AND REVENUE DATA FOR THE UK SECTOR OF THE NORTH SEA AND THAT IS THE UK GOVERNMENT NO WHERE ELSE.

WHICH IS WHY THE FIGURES ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME NO MATTER WHO PUBLISHES THEM.
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:34:58
38

And Ugly you have already agreed with me that Governments only produce figures and stats which show them in a good light not figures and stats that reflect the true situation.
43

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:41:27
37

Every nation on the planet was an agrarian country as was the North South East and West of England once moron and both Scotland and Norway have evolved into industrial nations.
If you have nothing to post then post nothing it isnt rocket science.
44

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 09:42:46
42 Parcel
Why do you think that putting something in capital letters gives it any more credence. Nobody apart from yourself disputes the figures.

Have you seen how the figures are compiled. They detail production field by field month by month and are taken from the meters on production platforms. So, if the figures are false, loads of people on each platform can see this. If these figures are, as you claim, deliberatley distorted then every oil company operating in the North Sea must be a deliberate part of the distortion.

Also all bodies do not get their figure from BERR. If you consult the OPEC website you will see that it already has provisional figures for August UK production but BERR have not yet released these so where did OPEC get the figures from? Or are they yet another group which conspires with the oil companies to falsify the figures.
45

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 09:45:20
38 Parcel
Contrived distortion of what I said. As I made clear at the time, there is a difference between not publishing something and publishing deliberately false info.
46

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 09:49:46
38 Parcel
" Just because the UK government chooses not to produce from some platforms doesnt mean a Scottish Government wont choose to produce from them."

It is not up to the UK govt - it is up to the oil companies. Platforms etc. can cost over $200000 per day to hire. Do you think that the oil companies are going to spend this sort of money leaving them idle just to keep the UK govt happy. Why would they do that and why would the govt want them to do that considering that that would mean loss of revenue.
47

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:51:22
45

Well its obvious you are having problems reading the small print as I find myself having to repeat my points over and over again to the same troll.

Production platforms dont have "METERS" measuring oil flow numbnuts they have control rooms using Scada instrumentation to monitor all aspects of the production for safety purposes. There are sensors giving data on pressure, heat, valve control etc etc.
The volume measurement is done in the refineries under Government control. Its how they monitor how much revenue to charge or do you think the Government allows the individual companies to tell them how much revenue is due?
48

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 09:52:23
39 parcel
"you are a lying torag of a troll nothing more."

I see that you are adhering to your usual eloquent, erudite and sophisticated method of debate.
49

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:53:30
47

Wrong wrong wrong its the UK national resource and the oil and gas companies are on licence to produce by the UK government which can be withdrawn at any time.
You either know absolutely nothing about the oil and gas industry or yer just a lying torag. I think its both.
50

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:54:04
49

Yes as opposed to lying through my teeth though eh?
51

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 09:54:44
48 Parcel
"The volume measurement is done in the refineries under Government control. Its how they monitor how much revenue to charge or do you think"

So why do the oil companies quote how much they are producing from each field (as they do) if they cant measure it.
52

pehman,

sussex 13/10/2008 09:56:01

The worlds biggest economy (the US) is in recession

The worlds biggest Country (Russia) has closed its stock market, to prevent selling getting out of hand

Is size relevent in this crisis ?

If as maggie tells us the UK is well placed to weather this storm, then why is begging money from China and why is the RBS in in trouble when it owns around 20% of the Bank of China ?

53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:56:24
52

THEY DONT THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The oil companies get the info from FEEDBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
54

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 09:56:44
50 Parcel
"Wrong wrong wrong its the UK national resource and the oil and gas companies are on licence to produce by the UK government which can be withdrawn at any time."

So are you saying that the UK govt tells oil companies with platforms in place not to extract the oil.?
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 09:58:34
52

The total volume of what flows through an oil pipeline isnt just oil there is water and impurities in there as well which is why its measured after its filtered.
56

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 09:59:03
54 Parcel
"The oil companies get the info from FEEDBACK"

But the oil from several fields flows into the same pipeline before it reaches the terminal so how can they separate out the amounts from each field to give the feedback.
57

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:00:40
55

Government all over the world determine how much oil and gas goes onto the market at any one time I thought everybody knew that? WTF do you think OPEC does all day?
58

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:03:43
57

Which companies are sharing pipelines UGLY?
59

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:04:17
58 Parcel
Well answer me this question then. Why would the UK govt restrict the amount of oil flowing when it gets revenue from it. What is their motivation. OPEC does int to attempt to control the price. What is Gordon Brown's motivation. Does he not need any more cash?
60

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:05:34
59 Parcel
Several different ones use the Forties pipeline which takes oil from a number of fields.
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:07:26
60

Oil production is controlled globally or else there would be feast and famine. OPEC uses the control of oil production as a political tool with threats of either over producing or under producing depending on situation at the time which is why oil reserves are so important.
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:08:50
61

Oh dear Ugly only Apache are operating in the Forties nobody else.
63

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:11:57
63 Parcel
Apache operate the Forties filed but many others use the Forties pipeline including Nexen from the Buzzard field.
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:13:20
62 Parcel
So you are saying that the UK and US govts (and many oyhers) collude with OPEC to restrict the production of oil.
65

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:15:50
60

"Well answer me this question then. Why would the UK govt restrict the amount of oil flowing when it gets revenue from it. What is their motivation. OPEC does int to attempt to control the price. What is Gordon Brown's motivation. Does he not need any more cash?"

Maybe you can explain why the Government claims it only produces 1.6bn barrels per annum when the potential for so much more is possible? especially when as you say its so desperate for the cash?
Or maybe the UK sector is now in full production and cant produce anymore and the figures are doctored and put out because the country is in a constitutional crises and the UK government doesnt want the Scots to know just how big the gold mine is they are sitting on.
Lets face it its not as if they havent already been caught lying about the figures is it?
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:17:14
64 Parcel
PS You claimed earlier that there are 250 platforms in the North Sea. Are you therefore claiming that there are 250 separate pipelines coming into terminals from the North Sea. These pipelines feed into each other before they reach the terminal. Have a look at an infrastructure map of the North SEA. Oh - you will probably claim that that is a lie as well.
67

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:17:17
64

But according to you and the UK government these fields dont produce anything????
1.6bn barrels per annum remember????
You cant have all the fields in production and only produce 1.6bn barrels now can you??
68

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:19:10
67 see 68.

So which is it are these fields in full production or not? and if not then the only measurement is the Forties measured at Grangemouth and the Brent measured at Sullom Voe.
69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:20:06
66 Parcel
If they are lying about the figures tehre must be loads of people working all over the oil industry who could expose it. Why don't they. And who else, apart from yourself, disputes the figures.
70

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:21:17
70

Yes I am one of em how about you where does your experiance with the oil and gas industry come from?
71

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 10:21:54
69 Parcel
"measurement is the Forties measured at Grangemouth and the Brent measured at Sullom Voe"

Not the case. How can these terminals know how much is produced in each field.
72

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:23:19
70

Oh and lets not forget Professor McCrone and all those politicians who suppressed his report they know the truth also as does everybody else who has read the report.
73

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 10:24:00
71 Parcel
"Yes I am one of em how about you where does your experiance with the oil and gas industry come from?"

Now you are saying that you work in the oil industry and have exposed the falsification of prioduction figures,. Why have you not taken this to the press. Must be a good story.
74

Ugly George,

13/10/2008 10:25:30
73 Parcel
How can a projection and forecast reveal truth - it can only say what might happen. It cannot say what did happen.
75

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 10:25:36
I would suggest to Superparcelofrogues that he desists from advertising his amusing ignorance of the oil industry, and seeks help for his Tourette's syndrome.

Produced oil is seperated at source in the N. Sea. Who would flow salty water through a 100 mile pipeline?

Oil companies strictly monitor oil production rates (their shareholders would go balistic if they didn't), and the figures are available in their public reports.

Production from various operators is co-mingled into e.g. the main Forties pipeline, although the pipeline may be operated by Apache.

Oil can only be used as a political tool where production is in the hands of national companies, although I don't think that Norway indulges in that kind of behaviour with Statoil & Norsk.

In the oil business, there has always been 'feast or famine'.
76

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:26:04
70

So how about you Ugly where is the evidence that says they dont doctor their figures and data?
77

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:28:31
76

There are all kinds of impurities in the oil pumped in from offshore including seawater and natural gas numbnuts which is filtered at the end of the pipeline.
Most of the Gas is burned off on the platform itself but not all of it as is most of the water but not all of it.
78

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 10:31:19
77 Parcel
Where is the evidence that they do?

Apart from your assertions that is - assertions not shared by anybody else. I wonder why?
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:31:33
75

He also revealed the existing figures to be false and produced the true figures of the time.
Now yer spinning like a dervish.
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:33:11
79

The MCCRONE REPORT FOR ONE the unemployment data scandal the immigration figure scandal and the proven beyond all doubt inflation figure lies.
81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 10:35:25
79

And the Tory party believe they are lying about their data and stats as well.
82

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 10:45:23
#78 superparcel

Whether my nuts are numb, or not, your reference to 'filtering' crude oil betrays a deep ignorance of of the subject.
83

Rob,

13/10/2008 11:02:12
Alex surely realises today that the game is up. Using Ireland as an example right now is ingenuous and he knows it - if the Irish banking system is called it will be proved to be insolvent, not just illiquid.

What will remain of Scotland's banking system (which as we know was not owned by Scotland or Scots) will be down to decisions made by the UK Government who may or may not take a Barnet Formula approach to it. They do have to take account of Yorkshire and the City as well as Edinburgh and if Salmond carries on his smart assed rhetoric we can guess what their inclination will be and who could blame them? He's already put the begging bowl our for a quickie billion and another for £120 million from the fossil fuel level - ie, making a claim on more money that isn't ours.

He now sells the prospect of an independent Scotland in which all the financial institutions will be foreign owned. The man knows no shame and it is tragic that he continues to embarrass the Scottish people with his selfish and doomed agenda
84

Alan B,

13/10/2008 11:17:05
Labour using its own economic incompetence to justify the union is completely ridiculous.

How badly a country is effected by this global financial crisis will depend on how well managed your economy has been. The uk is being hit worse than most due to Browns economic incompetence.

Australia does not have the same banking crisis becuase it did not make a mess of the financial regulations in the same way Brown did.
85

John S,

13/10/2008 11:20:11
Jim Murphy did you read the Seattle Times on Nov 20, 2007
With a per-capita income of $65,509, Norway ranks second only to superrich Luxembourg. Much of the wealth derives from North Sea oil, but Norwegians have barely touched a penny of it, instead putting more than $350 billion into an investment fund for future generations.

Health-care services are considered among the best in the world and are available to everyone, with the cap on out-of-pocket expenses at $200 a year. Elderly Norwegians seeking to escape the harsh northern winters can retire to government-run geriatric communities in sunny Spain

The combination of high taxes in exchange for a dazzling array of social-welfare benefits provided by the state has created an extraordinarily cohesive society with a strong egalitarian streak.

A few other countries with oil money have taken note and "It's a lot easier when you have transparent institutions, an educated population and a long history of democracy with very little corruption," Martin Skancke, who heads the Norwegian Finance Ministry's asset department said.

In Europe's second-wealthiest country, "you won't see opulence or ostentatious consumption," said Stein Iversen, a Norwegian diplomat. Norwegians take pride in their sense of shared values and ability to run things by consensus.
Undoubtedly, it helps to be a small nation-Norway's population is 4.6 million-and ethnically homogeneous.
86

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 11:37:33
42 days detention without trial for all 20-year-olds caught on CCTV in possession of a tin of beer.
87

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 11:38:43
Whoops.... senior moment....
88

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 11:48:02
#86 John S

Good luck with your Nordic emmigration. However, under EU rules your emmigration to Luxemburg will be easier.
89

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 13/10/2008 11:58:21
#84 Rob

If Alex Salmond "continues to embarrass the Scottish people ---", they are showing their embarrassment in a strange way, by voting him into office, wiping out Labour in their fiefdom of Glasgow East and returning an SNP candidate to Westminster, planning to remove Labour in Glenrothes, and consistently voting our First Minister the most popular leader in opinion polls.

Strange people, these Scots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
90

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 13/10/2008 12:03:01
While Salmond may be a "qualified economist", he is also a qualified bampot. Scotland deserves far far better.
91

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 12:28:40
Independence is normality.
92

Miss H,

13/10/2008 13:21:33
84 In fact the money is all due to Scotland under rules set down by Westminster. It's all itemised. You can argue against each item if you like. The point about getting it in a onner is that it can be used immediately to boost the economy. If you would rather that did not happen you might want to share why?
93

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 13:27:56
There are other countries similar to Scotland inside the European Union who are doing well, why is there no mention to them?

Ireland still has low taxes, Iceland still has control of her fishing grounds, Yes these countries are struggling during a global crisis but the benefits to there Independence is still there.
94

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/10/2008 13:34:50
#1 and you should become the t!t.
95

Calvinist,

13/10/2008 14:21:59
If Norway is doing so well why did it have to borrow $5 billion from the US federal reserve on the 29th of September? Some people will believe anything and they're called Nationalists.
96

Stuntman Mike,

13/10/2008 14:37:31
I can't believe Supernat's still pushing the separation policy: for starters, the Norwegians have said that a separatist Scotland couldn't afford to copy their multi billion pound oil fund and Irish growth dropped to miuns 1.3% in the first quarter of this year.
97

Stuntman Mike,

13/10/2008 14:44:20
As for Ireland's having been able to act "quickly and decisively" to restore confidence in its banks, that was widely derided because Ireland's so tiny that the guarantee was pretty well meaningless.
98

Farky,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 14:44:33
We knew the Unionists would jump on this non story... So, do I understand that Iceland will be wishing it was part of a bigger country with more clout?

I THINK NOT!

The UK is just a bust as Iceland, and we're just as bust as the U.S. All these economies built on "hot air money" and DEBT! The great Gordon Brown leading us all to disaster!
99

Queen D,

Glasgow 13/10/2008 14:52:14
http://tinyurl.cc/Wau6L

2007 figures , start from the rear or rump of this to find just how much debt the UK and US were in.
Interestingly Norway was doing fine then too, so did the warmongering nations UK and US start this global slide?

And don't you think that any government worth its salt would have heard the alarm bells prior to these findings?
100

John S,

13/10/2008 15:03:02
Current account balance (2007) 1 to 188 countries
7 Norway plus $64,070,000,000
186 UK minus $119,200,000,000
188 USA minus $731,200,000,000
101

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 15:24:21
I see Spanners/Jackie Priest/Parcel is now using his Fed Up signon.

What an idiot.

Ugly George you made some superb points, but you are wasting your time. The guy is a moron and cant understand simple concepts.

102

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:27:10
106 I don't agree, I am not suprised with those folks who are getting themselves rather moist of what is happening in Iceland / Ireland etc. They seem not to have noticed that the UK Government is broke it was broke before the bank bail out and is even worse now.

The UK fiscal position is shocking the money £500 billion is a fiction this money will be produced by printing paper, it is not coming from treasury coffers as the UK has had to borrow money to balance the books.

It's a future IOU, this paper will probably lead to booster inflation in the up cycle.

This term money is not backed by a physical commodity gold etc. Make no doubt we are in recession folks and it will be nasty and long.

Darling is arguing that Scotland will be better served inside the union because of it's size. But the very state of the UK fiscal position does not back up this claim the UK PLC is broke, because he can print fictional FIAT currency does not a good economy make.
103

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:32:34
107 You seriously need a reality check laddie! We are in the nasty Brown stuff funnily enough whilst Mr Brown was in charge, there is global factors outside his and our control.

However the fiscal state of the UK is his responsibility, do you realise how much debt the UK has?

The government figures do not include the PFI/PPP debt, pension provision, network rail. Yet the treasury is the guarantor of these debts I believe IFRS implementation has been postponed for another year that's convienent!
104

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:39:46
Please also note that during his 10 years as chancellor the tax take doubled in the UK, this wasn't all done through organic growth folks.

So you go for a financial health check you sit down with your IFA and proudly tell them your doubled your income in ten years, only then to tell them you have increased your debt and have no savings.

Would the IFA congratulate you on your prudence?
105

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:51:35
I wonder what our neighbours in Ireland and Iceland make of the politicians / press reports about their country?

A great way to build relationships!
106

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 15:55:59
Now that Iceland and Ireland are bankrupt, maybe Salmond should be looking to a new Arc of Prosperity for an Independent Scotland to join.

What about Burkina Faso, Burundi and Somalia?
107

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:57:56
The tactic of putting a loaded weapon against the head of Scots and daring them to pull the trigger didn't work in May 2007.
108

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 15:59:09
114 you are either being very silly or ignorant which is it?
109

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:02:37
117 Agreed apparently nationilising major banks is a sign of economic strength. Again where is the money for this process going to come from.

I mean does Darling have £50 billion in hard currency lying around?
110

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 16:02:59
#111 Fed up

So you intend to do away with vitriolic name-calling, and meaningless political point-scoring?

You might even read people's postings next before piling-in. But I doubt it.
111

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:07:55
Tin Man the UK fiscal position is in a terrible situation it appears Darling is going to try and print paper to get the UK govt out of it's black hole.

What does history tell us about printing paper currency without precious metal backup?
112

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:11:18
One of my favourite economic terms is the "The elasticity of supply and demand"

Where do you think we are?
113

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:14:21
One estimate is that the real uk national debt is sitting closer to £1.3 trillon pounds.

Aye it pays to be prudent!
114

guenevere,

13/10/2008 16:27:03
Oil prices are extremely volatile just now,another nail in the separatist coffin,only the real diehard Nat's are left and they have about as much credibility as creationist,end of!
115

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:28:56
127 I believe that some folk have gotten themselves drunk on the misfortune of others, they will wake up with a mighty headache, the UK is in no fiscal shape to lecture Ireland / Iceland.
116

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:30:53
128 Jesus going please stop the madness, do you have any idea of what is happening in the World? Well the price is falling guess what OPEC will do!
117

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:32:39
So 128 your logic is that if the oil price falls those Scots who want independence will suddenly stop?
118

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:37:07
A good analogy for messers D&B, both are fireman who set a house on fire, they then go to the fire to extiguish it and wonder how the fire started it doesn't register that they set the fire in the first place.
119

The Master,

13/10/2008 16:38:37
Nats such as "Fed Up" are in denial big time: the favoured nationalist line was to compare Scotland to successful small country models (Ireland, Norway... Iceland), so as "not to frighten the children".

Well, now they're actually going to have to use the "I" word or, more likely put the separation agenda on the back burner where it undoubtedly belongs.

I wouldn't be surprised if people cease to associate the SNP primarily with their separation policy before very long: mark my words!
120

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:38:58
What does your neighbour think if he catches you peeing into his pond over the fence?
121

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:43:19
133 I would suggest you seek the help of some professional assistance.

Denial eh! Such as the current state of the UK fiscal position denial!

They still are successfully countries.
122

guenevere,

13/10/2008 16:43:39
131.Isn't oil what the Nat's are all about,why do you think they keep bleating on about that McCrone Thingy LOL
123

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 16:45:16
#111 - the only peope that like to compare Norway and Scotland are the nationalists. And they like to ignore the fact that Norway's tax regime is among the most stringent on the planet.

In the real world, most people know that Norway is a very different country to Scotland - homogenous, no history of heavy industry, no history of immigration, never an intrinsic part of the biggest empire the world has ever known, etc - and understand that because of this the Norwegian model is not importable into Scotand without Scots paying a very high price.
124

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:47:28
136 Tell me have you managed to get mummy or daddies logon password
125

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:48:44
Fed up of the union/Spanners, is trying to take the moral high ground.

Now that is a worrying development.

Where was I gloating over Somalia?

This should be interesting.
126

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:49:18
Fed up of the union/Spanners, is trying to take the moral high ground.

Now that is a worrying development.

Where was I gloating over Somalia?

This should be interesting.
127

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:51:07
Fed up of the union/Spanners, is trying to take the moral high ground.

Now that is a worrying development.

Where was I gloating over Somalia?

This should be interesting.
128

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:52:20
Ooops apologies for the triple post!

I kept getting page not found.
129

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:55:54
Border Scot is reads like you miss Empire? Norway does have a higher tax take that's for sure, and I am don't know anybody that is avoiding that debate about taxation levels. There is always going to be a debate about the level of taxation and what a government provides, how many civil servants in service provision and how many in back office administration etc.

They also have national service.

Norway also owns the Statoil company that extracts and provides a great deal of income to the nation.

I do think Norway does have more than a passing interest in engineering. The key is Norway controls it's revenues we don't.

If Scotland had controlled the income coming from North Sea oil since the late seventies do you believe we would be in a worse / similar / better state than today?
130

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 16:57:37
142 Do you want to answer the questions I posed about the UK fiscal position before commenting on the state of Iceland / Ireland etc.
131

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:06:51
If the Scottish government were to increase the price of alcohol as the uk government has for cigarettes would that reduce consumption?

I believe that Norway has a large levy because of many factors reducing the alcohol intake is one and trying to reduce the accident rate especially in the rural areas because of drink driving.
132

Marian,

13/10/2008 17:06:53
Quote from Iain Dale website today "'A global problem which required a global solution', says Gordon Brown, trying to make out that he has been the instigator of the so-called global solution. What he doesn't tell you, of course, is that Britain and America are the only two countries which have been hit in such a devastating way. There's a reason for that. With Brown as chancellor Britain let its finances get out of control and encouraged a debt boom, the like of which we had never seen before. Countries which managed their finances more conservatively have had fewer problems. Any rescue packages they are having to impose are largely due to the collapse in world markets because of what has happened in American and Britain, rather than in their own countries. Brown must not be allowed to get off the hook. He set up the current regulatory system and must be held responsible for it. It has failed and he is the man to blame. He was told over and over again the tripartite system was not working, yet took no notice whatsoever. It's all very well to blame bankers for taking short term risks - but the regulatory system which Brown was responsible for not only allowed them to do so but positively encouraged such behaviour. The warnings were there, but Brown ignored them."
133

guenevere,

13/10/2008 17:07:48
138.you're a patronising g-t,aren't you,just like Supernat thinks noone'll see through his crazy separatism and love his voter bribes which he can't deliver,well he's going to be found out,if not in glenrothes then a few months later LMAO
134

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:13:47
147 I wrote it because your comment seemed so daft, Oil is a major part of the argument however it is not the reason the SNP are a political party. You seem to miss that what wee poor lost souls of the civic nationalism prescribe is that Scotland is a country, a nation in it's right and nations are betterd governed by themselves.
135

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:15:05
Do Nationalists have nothing better to do...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

with their time...like say work on real issues that people care about?

Queen Mary's body 'should return'

Mary fled to England after being forced to abdicate
A Nationalist MSP has called for the remains of Mary Queen of Scots to be returned to Scotland.

The Catholic monarch's body has lain at Westminster Abbey in London since she was executed on the orders of her cousin Elizabeth I of England in 1587.

South of Scotland MSP Christine Grahame is to make a motion to the Scottish Parliament later this week demanding the body be repatriated.

Composer James MacMillan and Lib Dem MSP Hugh O'Donnell backed the call.

Ms Grahame also plans to write to culture minister Linda Fabiani urging the Scottish Government to support the campaign.

"She [Mary Queen of Scots] was an iconic historical Scots figure and ultimately the victim of English plotting," Ms Grahame said. Mary Queen of Scots is undoubtedly held in very great and affectionate esteem by Scots Catholics who admire her religious devotion and fidelity to the church

Catholic Church in Scotland spokesman

"Given the House of Stuart's association with Falkland Palace, a place where Mary is believed to have spent her happiest days, that would appear to be an appropriate place to inter her remains."

Mary fled to England after being forced to abdicate in 1567.

She was held prisoner by Elizabeth I, found guilty of treason and executed at Fotheringhay Castle in Northamptonshire 20 years later.

A spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland said: "Mary Queen of Scots is undoubtedly held in very great and affectionate esteem by Scots Catholics who admire her religious devotion and fidelity to the church.

"As such, there would be significant interest among many Catholics in any plan to repatriate her remains."

Westminster Abbey said the body of Ma
136

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:16:43
146 A very good description of what is happening Brown is responsible for the fiscal mess, leadership also requires honest and open communication qualities he is sadly lacking.
137

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:18:00
149 We do Rufus unfortunatley we are not in control of the countries finances.
138

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:20:10
Rufus tell me what do you do if you have a large debt and a shrinking income?
139

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:22:58
#152 Your question is too simplistic. Whats the scenario?



140

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:23:45
Queen Mary's body 'should return'

And these people wonder why we wouldn't trust them to run a proper parliament with grown up things like raising money as well as spending it.

Halfwits.
141

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:26:16
Westminster Abbey said the body of Mary Queen of Scots was taken there at the "express instructions" of her son, and it takes its responsibility very seriously.

Who cares what the family want, the Nationalists need a new crusade.

Lets waste thousands if not millions of pounds moving what is left of poor wee Mary ?
142

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:26:35
Its the same negative sh*te churned up again and again and again by the same negative sh*te posing as different shades of sh*te but fooling nobody.

Hard fact Scotland is a small nation with a population under 6 million.
Hard fact Scotland is a nation very rich in natural resources including oil and gas clean water coal and the purest although small amount of Gold deposits in the world.
Hard fact a nation with a small population coupled with large rich resources is a nation to be envied and cant help but florish within a democratic envoirnment.
It has thriving industries in whiskey and textiles.
It has its own Law system.
It has its own education system.
It pioneers world firsts in many fields.

And according to the phuqwit trolls and their political handlers Scotland is the only nation on the planet which would immediately become a basket case the day after it gains its independence and can only florish under the yoke of a union dominated by a much larger populated nation with little resources of its own.
And that is the position the unionist trolls on these blogs try so hard to push.
Is it any wonder they cant do it honestly or credibly?
143

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 17:27:17
#143 - My guess is that we would be pretty muc where we are today because our industrial decline would have happened whether we had been independent or not, and it is our industrial decline that led to a slowing down of our growth rate.

However, that is hypothetcail.We are not independent because the majorit of Scots have never voted for independence or given the majority of their votes to aparty that supports independence. Asof today, what I do know is that Scotland cannot have an oil fund and sustain current levels of expenditure without a significant increase in taxation. I have never heard anyone from the SNP spell that out when they lionise Norway's achievements.Just as I never heard anyone from the SNP who praised Ireland talk about that country's lack of an inclusive cradle to grave welfare system.
144

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:28:48
153 Well the current situatuion i.e. we are in a recession the government will get a lower tax income at the same time it's debt is growing, hopefully that's not too simplistic for you?
145

guenevere,

13/10/2008 17:33:23
148.scotland's a failed state and noone wants it back,now stick that in your pipe and smoke it,far better off now and you know it,why do you think scotland didn't go the way of Ireland years ago and everyone's always voted labour rather than nationalist
146

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:38:36
On the one hand we have a government which

Took us to war in Iraq.
Took us to war in Afganistan.
Lost personal data by the tanker load.
Involves itself in rendition flights and torture.
Is mired in party donation sleaze.
Is mired in individual fund raising sleaze.
Is mired in cash for honours scandals.
Attempts to rig Scottish elections.
Increaces taxation well above the rate of inflation
lies about the rate of inflation.
lies about the rate of immigration.
Lies about the number of unemployed.
Lies about the Revenue gained from NS oil and gas.
Lies about illegal arms deals with Saudi Arabia.
Reduces local services.
Lies about trying to keep the NHS in public ownership
Pushes for a complete and total privatisation of all services in the UK.
Lied about WMDs
Lied about a 40 minute warning of said WMDs reaching UK.
Failed our armed forces by breaking the Government armed forces covenant of not sending our troops into battle unprepared or properly equipped.
Want to spend 76bn on Trident.
Brought the UK economy to its knees
Increaced the national debt
Helped to increace the personal debt of the population.

And on the other we have a Government which so far has

Cut local taxation by 4%
Removed tolls from the Toll bridges.
Removed prescription charges for the elderly.
Protested against the war in Iraq
Protested against the war in Afganistan
Exposed the cash for honours scandal.
Exposed illegal donation scandals

147

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:41:46
#158 parcel "It pioneers world firsts in many fields."

Indeed Scotland does.

Scotland is the fattest nation in Europe.

Glasgow is the murder capital of the world.

Dundee is the unmarried teenage mums capital of Europe.

And many more that I cant be bothered looking up.


148

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:43:55
162 contd

Has fought tooth and nail to get everything it can for Scotland from the UK government including taxation rebate.
Has provided the funding required to recuit up to 1000 police officers in Scotland.
Has prevented the closure of A&E wards due for closure under the previous Liebour regime.
Wants to introduce a major local tax cut which will benefit the vast majority of Scottish tax payers under severe opposition.

I will add to this as the night goes on.
And we still have trolls comming on here rubbishing the SNP and supporting Liebour policy.
But of course theyre not party political trolls but just ordinary concerned voters who only see the good Liebour have done in the last 10 years.
149

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:44:28
#162 Parcel, can you correct the spelling errors in your list.

Normally I would not complain but as you cut and paste it every day can you not correct the original copy?

Email it to me and I will sort it out for you.

Address is Parcelisadimwit@hotmail.com
150

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:44:48
163

Yes and no doubt all part of the Union dividend eh?
151

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:46:38
165

Troll is spelt T-R-O-L-L NOT R-U-F-U-S. Best correct your own mistakes first before worrying about anybody elses.
152

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:47:12
159 I know it's hypothetical but it's roughly £250 billion pounds that's an awful lot of monies, I am sure we would have used that money better and be in a better fiscal situation than at the moment. For example the income from the North sea was three or four times the SBG of the early to mid eighties.

Our heavy industries didn't have to close to the same scale as they did. The world still needs ships, steel, engineering products. Our nations use quality as there selling point rather than cost we could have been the same.

Industrial relations were generally not good, management versus worker nonesense. Look at the way that Korea and Japan built ships for example, we could have done that in Scotland.

In respect to Norwegian versus Irish taxation those are both very good examples of a large state versus a small state and I think that the SNP have been taking part in the debate about were we could be. The general ethos of the SNP is to have a lower business tax regime and a fairer and therefore higher direct personal tax.

What happens when the SNP raises this question about taxation versus service provision?

Vote SNP get £5000 tax whammy.
153

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:47:32
#164 Parcel

You need to add

Has fought tooth and nail to get everything it can for Scotland from the UK government including Mary Queen of Scots body despite it being buried at a place that her family at the time requested.
154

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:48:46
#164 Parcel

You need to add

Has fought tooth and nail to get everything it can for Scotland from the UK government including getting the Saltire flying higher than the Union Jack above Edinburgh Castle.
155

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 17:49:33
#164 Parcel

You need to add

Has fought tooth and nail to get everything it can for Scotland from the UK government including getting the chessmen back from an 'English Museum'!
156

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:49:36
161 aye you are so right, so do you want to give control of the keyboard to the grown ups now please?
157

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:50:15
169

Yes that does compare very badly with going to war based on a lie and then sending the troops in unprepared and badly equipped.
I really do understand your position completely
158

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 17:50:49
Rufus I see you still haven't answered the question about the UK Fiscal situation £1.3 trillion debt Rufus.
159

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:52:00
171

Yes and again you have to compare that quite unfavourably with taking in illegal donations and selling honours for cash.
160

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:56:20
Do you see the problem I have Rufus 6 months?
How can I believe your just an ordinary concerned voter when your concerns run to chessmen and the resting place of Mary Queen of Scots relative to going to war on a lie or unprecedented corruption or unprecedented deceit or unprecedented betrayal bordering on treason?
161

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 17:58:15
And further to the above.
42 days detention proposal with a further proposal of 90 days detention.
162

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 18:01:16
168

"In respect to Norwegian versus Irish taxation those are both very good examples of a large state versus a small state and I think that the SNP have been taking part in the debate about were we could be. The general ethos of the SNP is to have a lower business tax regime and a fairer and therefore higher direct personal tax."

You just made that up just now. Its your own personal opinion not policy nor is it planned.
Why should lower business rates cause income tax to increace? where is the relationship or formula?
163

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 13/10/2008 18:09:30
178 I never said it was a policy it's the general ethos of the social democratic model of which the SNP are part of.

I've heard Alex Salmond talking about such models in the past for example Ireland v Norway

This model has several economic views one is that you have lower business tax to encourage business to grow and be profitable and employ long term sustainable jobs and tax the income of those employed to provide the taxation base.

Another is the Irish model.

We have to decide how and what we tax. The public services will have to be changed to service provision rather than job creation agencies.

And I am a nationalist.
164

guenevere,

13/10/2008 18:11:42
172.can you give your keyboard to a non nat please,it's like trying to convince a scientologist that man is not an immortal spiritual being that has lived many lifetimes and has unlimited capabilities.

Scotland has it's faults and is better off as it is,everyone knows that and nats are just as nutty as scientologists if they think otherwise,people ignore the separatism and only listen to his other policies with oily salmond,that's the only reason he's popular
165

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 18:15:10
It's amusing how Unionists use the term 'seperatism', Scotland was an Independent country long before the Union so is technically 'reclaiming' her Independent status.
166

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 18:15:49
It's amusing how Unionists use the term 'seperatism', Scotland was an Independent country long before the Union so is technically 'reclaiming' her Independent status.
167

The Master,

13/10/2008 18:29:18
#182: a. sorry you can't spell "separatism" and you've had to repeat your folly twice.

b. Scotland was part of Britain for many years before it became a nation. You're not the brightest, are you!
168

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 18:49:18
Post 11, to Post 153.

Oh dear, Rufus T (English voice, AM2 etc) has been on here slavering and dribbling since 3am, having been on yesterday's threads from 4am to midnight...

A sad, obsessive, dreary and negative chap. Do pause and pity as you scroll on.

Scottish unionist.com - all negativity, all bitterness, all snearing, all talking Scotland down - ALL the time 24/7
169

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 13/10/2008 18:52:03
This is the end of the snake oil salesman. He is off to work for Donald Trump. Scotland deserves better.
170

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 13/10/2008 18:54:34
Salmond is brilliant at picking fights but poor at tackling real problems. A menace. Scotland deserves better.
171

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 18:55:30
188. I was just asking for pity, and perhaps help, for Rufus T who has been posting since 3am (see post 11) - and who posted yesterday from 4am to midnight - surely even Rufus is entitled to a wee break?
172

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 13/10/2008 18:55:35
Where was Salmond in 1979? What part did he play in the collusion with the Tories?
173

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 19:01:06
188. And why do you post "Why do you keep repeating the accusation that unionists here are guilty"

When I haven't repeated it?

Is the trauma of losing to the SNP last year, the SNP's seismic victory in Glasgow East, and the SNP's lead in the polls, making you also irrational and obviously depressed, negative, reactionary and cross, in the same way as it has affected Rufus T?
174

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 13/10/2008 19:05:25
192

kyle, you are your associates just don't get it, do you? Loser.
175

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 19:05:31
187, 189

Scottish unionist.com - all negativity, all bitterness, all snearing, all talking Scotland down - ALL the time 24/7


Scotland does indeed deserve better.
176

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 13/10/2008 19:23:04
193

Mr Mason, surely you mean "you AND your associates don't get it"? However, I agree with your sentiments entirely. Nationalism has no place in a civilised society.
177

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 19:54:30
#185.

The Master.

Scotland was created before England (still split by tribes) was around. How could Scotland be apart of Britain for years before we became a Nation like you said?
178

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 20:03:17
193. Robert Mason

"kyle, you are your associates just don't get it, do you? Loser."

If you mean basic literacy, I would suggest your post demonstrates I do, perhaps better than you. Have you been up since 3am like Rufus, posting here all day, and only posting bitter, depressive bile driven by the panic induced by defending a pathetic, negative unionist agenda?

Scots Unionists Are Us.Com - We and Us Associates get negativity, bitterness and illeteracy better than yous!
179

,

13/10/2008 20:09:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
180

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 20:52:57
#199

Scotland (The boundries similar to when Alexander the Third was King of Scots) was created in about the 8th century. England was formed between the year 900 and 950.

The point I was making was that Scotland was around before England was created so technically we are reclaiming our Independence status rather then seperating.

181

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 21:09:08
198. Oh dear, Rufus, who has been on here for 19 hours of the last 24, and 39 of the last 48 (post #11 3am, latest post 9.00pm) has now adopted homophobia, to go with his rather dull, depressed, panicked and bilious anti-Scottish unionist negativity.

We should all be grateful that his incapacity benefit stretches so far, and is not for repetitive strain injury.


Scottish unionists - all negativity, all snearing, all talking Scotland down, all the time... when they not just on websites 24/7 coz they have no life at all.


182

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 21:12:30
202. Facinating unionist commentary on the future of Scotland.
183

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 21:22:13
179

No it isnt there is no link between business rates and income taxation proportionally nor inversely proportionally. You just made that up.
Business rates can go up or down without any effect to income tax or any other tax for that matter.
Yer full of it.
184

ThomasP,

13/10/2008 21:25:04
#202

Scotland still existed (no matter how you want to put it). Her borders may have been disputed but Scotland existed before England which was my point.
185

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 13/10/2008 21:26:35
180

WTF are you on about? did anybody demand a seperation model be produced for Ireland leaving the Union or the US becomming independent or India? South Africa? Austrailia? New Zealand? Canada?
Scotland will take its place amongst all the other indepedent nations on the planet hopefully by a peaceful democratic process and not by insurgency.
Thats the model you best hope for.
186

The_Reiver,

13/10/2008 21:27:23
What is this 'ARC of prosperity' that Slamond has? And how do I get one?
187

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 21:30:22
Tut Tut Kyle, still cyberstalking I see.

There is probably a law against that you know.

I see you are talking about Homophobia as well now.

Really Kyle, try and be more accurate.

That is so far from the truth, its a just crazy statement to make. I have absolutely nothing against you and your friends.

In fact I think its a good thing for you.

And another thing Kyle, do you really think that people are interested that I posted at 3-00am, then 4-00am and then whenever else it was?

I mean really Kyle, do you really think anybody cares apart from you?

Your life is so worthless that you are keeping a diary of when I make postings.

I feel sorry for you, I do.

I suppose you just cant help yourself.

188

The_Reiver,

13/10/2008 21:34:32
What ever happend to the likes of the Voltadini and the picts etc? Is it true that the Scots murdered them all? As a Roman citizen I demand to know because this is something which affects my daily existence. Celts eh what can you do with them? Now we were here first so out with it.
189

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 21:43:43
208. Rufus, English Voice, AM2, Stirling Sentinel etc etc

...anyone who scrolls down the comments can see you posted at 3.00am and then constantly until nearly 10pm.

I am just concerned, given you posted on Scotland on Sunday from 1am to 11pm yesterday, that you seem to spend 21 hours a day on here.

What is more concerning is that all your output is sad, negative, snearing, bilious, lightweight carping that suggests a deep void, almost as much as your 24/7 desperate presence on here.

Through thoughtful consideration of your distressing plight I think I see what has happened - panic on your part at the SNP win last year has been heightened by the SNP win in Glasgow East, to the point where your lonely and socially inadequate faculties have now fixated on "scotsman.om" as the last vetsige of expression for a sad, wee, bitter man who claims incapacity benefit for "depression" or some such; that you seek to treat your legally dubious condition by indulging in the venting of your bitter negativity here is sad, but a good advert for the sterile agenda of unionism.

Cheers etc
190

Finnzz,

13/10/2008 21:51:31
#207

Its on his Christmas shopping list but those nasty folk in London won't let him have it.

I'm afraid Mr Murphy should refrain from deriding other countries if they are experiencing financial difficulties. His own glorious leader has not exactly demonstrated his fiscal prowess over the last 10 years, especially when he claimed to have eradicated Boom & Bust.

Okay, he has managed to stop half of it.

Unfortunately thats the Boom bit.

Oh look, I can do double spacing as well to make my

post look big and important. Just like Rufus...
191

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 21:57:16
I cant believe it the unhinged Kyle is still stalking me!

What a weirdo.

As well as being obsessed with me, he is obsessed about incapacity benefit.

He is now getting concerned for me as well.

HELP!
192

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 21:59:38
#211 Finzz, Yes you can do double spacing, but sadly your content lets you down.
193

Kyle N Carrick,

13/10/2008 22:07:04
212. Rufus, AM2, English voice, Stirling etc

that is your 50th, but most explicit, cry for help on here since 3.00am.

Are you not tired, posting here all night and all day - you were on Scotland on Sunday and the Scotsman on Saturday also nearly 21 hours a day - that is nearly 64 hours of the last 72?

You should really try to get some sleep. You should maybe try to get outdoors, apart from cashing your giro frr "anxiety disorder" or whatever it is you claim for.

Other than that, do keep up the sad, anti-Scottish, snearing, negative unionist dirge! Does us all good to have a giggle at a sad obessive sad-sad, and you are a great reminder that unionists have no positive agenda to offer.

Night night (or in your case, pop another anti-depressant and plough on through to the next Scotsman.com edition!)

Cheers etc
194

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 22:18:09
Kyle the weirdo, your posts are all repeats.

Google 'originality' then come back.
195

,

13/10/2008 22:51:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
196

Gtj,

13/10/2008 22:59:14
Sorry Dufus, but you are trying too hard.
197

Gtj,

13/10/2008 22:59:32
Sorry for the typo.
198

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 14/10/2008 15:56:47
Parcel @ 204 you seem to be a wee bit aggresive anyway I am not full of it. It is there too see what I have written.

I never said there was a link, What does my post say if you look at taxation across the world there is a huge spectrum of various types levels etc.

Social Democratic parties across the world usually favour more progessive taxation. There are big differencies of course, I was highlighting Norway and Ireland, because they both could be used to mark one of the spectrum.

Ireland has a lower personal and corporation tax than norway. Norway has greater social provision.

Example Sweden has a lower corporation tax and a much higher income tax than the UK.

There is various thoughts on taxation what I was driving at is that to encourage business growth you have lower business taxation, you still need to fund public services so you must fund these through Income tax and VAT.

Again Sweden has vat level of 25% and income tax maximum of 56% and corporation tax of 28%

What I was trying to post is that we have to be grown up and talk about What how and why we tax.

199

Perched, Smiling,

14/10/2008 16:22:29
Having lived in Norway for a couple of years when i was younger may I dispel some of the keich emanating from the keyboards of the unionist posters earlier on this thread...

1. Income tax does start at 28% in Norway, you are correct, but you also have a month's break, completely free of tax, coincidentally, in the same month that you would have paid the most. This reduces the overall tax take in the year

2. Norwegians, dont mind paying a slightly higher level of tax, because everything works and works well.... the infrastructure and social benefits on offer put Scotland and most other countries to shame

3. As for the claim that Norway is entirely reliant on Oil, that is complete nonsense!! Fishing is as big an industry in Norway as the Oil industry is...

4. When people retire in Norway, owing partly to the slightly higher tax that they paid when working, then they get their electricity, water and heating bills paid for them by the state... A nice dividend if you ask me...

Before you start mouthing off, Ugly George and Royster in particular then get your facts straight and quit with the scaremongering... it doesnt work!!
200

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 14/10/2008 16:30:49
Good post perched, taxation is the topic that is often treated as a taboo in politics.
201

Perched, Smiling,

on the brink of a Nova Nova Scotia 14/10/2008 16:53:01
Thanks Tormod... it really irritates me that some of the posters on here just spout off without actually knowing what they are talking about...

Taxation is a reality

Its what we do as a nation with it and the benefits it provides to us all that make it worthwhile or not...

I for one dont mind paying more if i could see a genuine return for my money...

 

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