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Snub for SNP's anti-nuclear line as Faslane picked to be sole sub base

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Published Date: 28 April 2009
FASLANE is set to be the UK's only submarine base in a move that will boost the economy yet will also be seen as a snub to the Scottish Government's anti- nuclear stance.
Ministry of Defence documents suggest that the seven Trafalgar class submarines currently based in Devon will be relocated to Faslane on the Gare Loch near Glasgow by 2015.

If confirmed, the move will be a massive boost for the 11,000 workers connected to HM Naval Base Clyde and will protect its future at a time when cuts are seeing many of the UK's defence facilities scaled back.

However, the decision will be a blow to SNP Scottish Government ministers who have long campaigned, along with church leaders and other civic groups, to have weapons of mass destruction and nuclear-powered submarines removed from Scotland.

While the Trafalgar class submarines do not carry nuclear weapons, they are nuclear powered and protesters believe that with Faslane Britain's only submarine base it will be far harder to remove the Trident nuclear missile carrying Vanguard submarines from Scotland.

With a report from the Scottish Government's working party into how Scotland and the Faslane area can have a Trident-free future due by June, the plans outlined in the MoD documents instead entrench the future of British nuclear weapons in Clyde.

It would also be a slap in the face for Holyrood in terms of the UK government ignoring the wishes of MSPs over reserved issues. A majority of MSPs have voted in the past for Trident to be removed from Scotland.

The Scottish Government's working party includes representatives of the Church of Scotland.

The convener for the Kirk's Church and Society Council, Ian Galloway, said that the decision was very disappointing.

He called on the UK government to rethink its decision to renew Britain's nuclear deterrent.

"The news that the Clyde is intended to be the sole base for submarines will place an additional burden on the people of Scotland," he said.

The view was backed up by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, which has run a protest peace camp outside Faslane for many years.

CND chairwoman Kate Hudson said: "Making Faslane the Royal Navy's sole submarine operating base would further tie Scotland into Westminster's nuclear calculations.

"It is sheer madness to further entrench nuclear weapons in a nation whose parliament voted so decisively against their retention."

The documents, revealed to Channel 4 under Freedom of Information laws, state that the MoD plans to move its seven Trafalgar Class (T Class) submarines from Devonport, near Plymouth.

The document reads: "The future capability will be Nuclear Safety Implicated (NSI) on an Authorised Site within HM Naval Base Clyde Faslane. All submarine operations will be in the Northern Area. All classes of submarine are to be supported.

"The estates rationalisation programme seeks to reduce the nuclear footprint and the new submarine maintenance hub will be co-located in this area."

The move is part of the MoD's rationalisation programme and follows a clumsy attempt to reduce three UK naval bases to two, which was aborted in 1997.

Despite promising to keep the three bases (which also include Portsmouth) open, it was always clear that one would lose out and see its capabilities greatly reduced. Faslane appears to have won the battle behind the scenes for the submarine fleet while Portsmouth has come on top for the surface fleet.

Dumbarton Labour MSP Jackie Baillie, who has the base in her constituency, said she was delighted with the revelations.

"This is very good news for the future of the local economy," she said. "Thousands of jobs depend on the base."

But she added: "The SNP is inherently dishonest about its position on Trident. If Trident goes then Faslane's future will be under threat and the SNP's working party will have to look at finding jobs for 11,000 people, not the 1,000 they claim would be under threat."

Whitehall sources also insisted that there is still strong support for Trident in Scotland.

A source said: "The last survey I saw on it said 55 per cent of people think that Scotland should pay its fair share for the deterrent."

However, the SNP has repeated its claim that Scotland wants to be rid of nuclear weapons and power. It wants Faslane to become a base for the surface fleet. The party's Westminster leader Angus Robertson said: "On the very day that the MoD has been found guilty of repeated nuclear safety breaches, there will be great concern at an apparent proposal to bring more nuclear submarines to Faslane."

A spokeswoman for the MoD refused to confirm the decision and said a rationalisation report would be published shortly containing recommendation.

"The Maritime Change Programme is considering a number of options to improve efficiency and effectiveness at the UK's naval bases but decisions have not yet been finalised."

There was also a suggestion that Faslane's ability to cope with nuclear waste was important in the final decision on where to base the submarine fleet.

"The MOD has to make long-term plans for the future and in order to do this effectively we base our final decisions on informed working assumptions," she said. "HM Naval Base Clyde has used working assumptions to inform their Future Radioactive Waste Management Capability document."

She insisted that whatever the final outcome the future of all three naval bases are secure.

FASLANE BEFORE AND AFTER

HM NAVAL Base Clyde currently supports up to 11,000 civilian jobs in the west of Scotland.

It is home to:

• Four Vanguard class submarines, which carry Trident nuclear missiles

• Four ageing Swiftsure class submarines, which do not carry nuclear weapons but now fire Tomahawk missiles.

• One Astute class submarine, which was recently launched, but is yet to be commissioned.

• Eight Sandown class mine hunters – small glassfibre vessels used to search for, rather than destroy, mines.

In the future the base will also be home to:

• Between three and seven more Astute submarines. They will replace the Swiftsure fleet.

• The seven Trafalgar class submarines currently based at Devonport which carry cruise missiles and are used as rapid reaction vessels. One of these was responsible for a radiation leak in the Clyde in 2004.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 April 2009 1:25 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear incidents
 
1

,

27/04/2009 22:36:15
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RufusT-Firefly,

27/04/2009 22:44:29
"FASLANE is set to be the UK's only submarine base in a move that will boost the economy"

What superb news for Scotland.

Once again the strength of the United Kingdom safeguards jobs for Scotland.

Good to see our National Government stopping the SNP Administration from destroying 11,000 jobs.
3

druidh,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 00:06:14
Nah - keep it all at Faslane. That way, we have a better bargaining chip during the Independence negotiations.
4

,

28/04/2009 00:10:18
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Castaway™ ,

28/04/2009 00:11:39
#2 - Good to see our National Government stopping the SNP Administration from destroying 11,000 jobs.

Report Commissioned by the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.
CANCELLING TRIDENT THE ECONOMIC AND EMPLOYMENT CONSEQUENCES FOR SCOTLAND

The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland.Geoff Hoon - 21 February 2005

Civilian personnel. Katy Clark MP asked the Secretary of State how many civilian personnel were employed at Faslane and Coulport. In reply Adam Ingram MP said that there were a total of 1,750 MoD civilians. 1,080 of these were at Faslane and 670 at Coulport. He said that in addition Babcock Naval Services employed around 1,430 across both sites. Combining these figures gives a total civilian workforce of 3,180

The number of potential Scottish job openings at risk, civilian and military, direct, indirect and induced, from Trident cancellation in 2022-2027 is estimated as 2,191.The number of civilian jobs would be 1,891.

Trident indirect and induced civilian employment across Scotland would be less than 1800.
11 Mar 2007 :::: http://tinyurl.com/d8m528
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28/04/2009 00:13:59
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Tris,

28/04/2009 00:14:57
Who was it the other day who said these weapons are usless?

They can't be used without codes supplied by America; they aren't appropriate for Afghanistan type wars, and they cost a fortune.

It has to be remembered that the few hundred jobs that this will safeguard will cost money which could be spent on other things that will also create jobs.

Rufus... you're having a laugh, aren't you?

8

Tris,

28/04/2009 00:18:37
Why no comments on the Gaza story?

9

hoblar,

28/04/2009 00:23:37
The enormous sum of money saved from dumping the deadly albatross of Trident from around our necks would be more than enough compensation-and we would make the world a far safer place.

That would be magic, and the 'great news' supposed to give the great orator Ian Gray (7% popularity in Scotland) a chance to be goading his pro nuclear credentials in Holyrood so that will be a laugh.
However I reckon that people who believe that sending nuclear missiles to destroy the men women and children of another country in their millions is a good way to keep peace are radio rental.

Most Scots are not interested in holding the Western hemispheres Nuclear 'Deterrent', and I can clearly remember when 'Original' Labour were so strongly against Nuclear weapons and seized this popular concept, particularly in the late '70's and throughout the '80's, unlike the right wing 'New' Labour we see today pretending they are socialists when they are simply the tories in a red basque, and a ragged and worn red basque at that.

In fact, after a humbling spell as the Westminster opposition, the Right Wing Tories are more to the left of the warmongering, ID card introducing New labour.




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28/04/2009 00:32:40
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28/04/2009 00:34:33
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Castaway™ ,

28/04/2009 00:34:37
Trident: Scotland - House of Commons - 21 July 2008
Ms Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the number of civilian jobs in Scotland dependent on the Trident programme; what the locations are of those jobs; and how many there are at each site.

Des Browne: The latest available figure for civilian jobs that directly rely upon the Trident programme in Scotland is 859, as at December 2006. It was estimated at that point that there were a further 250 indirect civilian jobs based on employment relating to support activities to the Trident programme.

The 859 direct jobs are broken down by location as follows:
Location - Number
HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane) - 48
Royal Navy Armament Depot Coulport - 541
Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment - 270
Total - 859

http://tinyurl.com/cdqq2s
13

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 00:35:39
10 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 00:32:40

"£20bn of taxpayers' money by replacing Trident with a new generation of nuclear weaponry. The cost is equivalent to 800 new city academy schools, 60 medium-sized hospitals or the employment of 20,000 new NHS consultants"
================================================

Yes indeed.

New schools and new hospitals that the SNP would never build.
14

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 00:36:24
Traquir, do you still think that Britain's currency is the Euro?
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28/04/2009 00:36:41
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For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 28/04/2009 00:37:53
Another day anotherb Labour Party anti-SNP press release retyped by the Scotsman.

"11,000 workers connected to HM Naval Base Clyde"??

So I take it that HM Naval Base is the one of the largest employers in the whole of Scotland??
17

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 28/04/2009 00:40:01
Saying we must keep Trident because it supports jobs is absurd.

Tell that to President Obama, who has stated clearly he would like to see a world free of these weapons.

The Scottish people also want that, as do the majority of Scottish MPs and MSPs.

Based on Labour government logic, we should build and maintain as many weapons of mass destruction as possible, and why? Because think of the jobs they will support.

Madness
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 00:40:07
16 For Scotlands Future,Vote for the SNP 28

You were late tonight.
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28/04/2009 00:40:46
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 00:40:51
17 Thomas79,Ayrshire 28/04/2009 00:40:01
Saying we must keep Trident because it supports jobs is absurd.

Tell that to President Obama, who has stated clearly he would like to see a world free of these weapons.
=====================================================

Believe that and you believe anything.
21

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 00:42:20
19 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 00:40:46
Well if we get the chance to have the choice where
to spent the money I am sure we would, but we
don't get any choice in this British Democracy
do we ?
==========================================

"Don't get any choice"?

Howzat?
22

,

28/04/2009 00:45:55
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Thomas79,

28/04/2009 00:47:04
Obama promotes nuclear-free world

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7983963.stm

There you go RufusT-Firefly, I believe him rather than you.

24

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28/04/2009 00:52:26
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 01:01:14
22 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 00:45:55
14 RufusT-Firefly,

"Traquir, do you still think that Britain's currency is the Euro?"

Well, as mighty Sterling rampages
to parity with the Euro, perhaps they should join
soon before it goes under parity and before
they become too big a debtor and are refused
entry into the exclusive EuroZone club.

see - tinyurl.com/d56r5r
===================================================

For the second time in my life I have checked one of your links.

And what do I find (apart from needing some strong cups of coffee to now stay awake)?

The Pound on a major upward trend against the Euro.

If you extrapolate that graph forward a few months, far from being at parity, it is heading back towards 1.2 and upwards.

So what on earth are you talking about?

Are you living in a parallel universe?

Of course, all of that is a diversion, as you thought that Britain's currency was the Euro anyway.
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28/04/2009 01:02:18
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28/04/2009 01:09:03
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 01:13:24
24 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 00:52:26
Hmm, Scottish Parliament votes overwhelmingly against
nuclear weapons but we get them anyway. Perhaps
something to do with the 10 to 1 domination of England
over Scotland ? Just a wild guess.
===================================================

Clearly my post which was being referred to was about the building of new schools and hospitals which the SNP do have control over.

Try and stick to the point being discussed if you are referring to a previous post, as opposed to employing all your pathetic diversionary tactics.

29

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 01:16:55
28 1 Traquir,28/04/2009 01:09:03
26 RufusT-Firefly,

"The Pound on a major upward trend against the Euro."

Hmm, from 1.5 to 1.12 in 12 months is an upward trend ?
====================================================

Check your chart for 2009 you dimwit.

The pound has bottomed out in December 2008 and is on the rebound.
30

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 01:17:36
29 Cynicus in Exile,28/04/2009 01:09:34
Rufus,

SEPA has indicated that Faslane would have closed down -had it been a civil nuclear installation.

Why do you disagree with their judgment?
==================================================

Can you point me to the details of this please?
31

Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 28/04/2009 01:21:52
According to the news today, there have been at least 3 radiation leaks into the waters around the base. Because it is a military establishment all that SEPA can do is send a strongly worded letter.

Do we really want these Subs in our waters near our largest city leaking radiation.

I know what the answer would be if the base was on the Thames.
32

Lausanne Jellies,

28/04/2009 01:22:59
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
1 Traq mind
Rufus and Traq sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G
33

Edward,

28/04/2009 01:24:53
Watched Newsnight Scotland last night and they had Jackie Bailie smirking as she was proud that the UK Government was going to station another Trident Submarine at Faslane. She seemed to be happy that her constituents were being contaminated. She ignored the fact that SEPA had stated that the facilty would have been closed down had it been civilian. She also tried to talk over and down the fact that Faslane doe not employ 11000 that Labour like everone to believe.
Never mind Jackie, youll have plenty time after 2011, when the people of Dumbarton kick you out, that should wipe the smirk of your face
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28/04/2009 01:28:47
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28/04/2009 01:32:54
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Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 28/04/2009 01:33:45
Traquir.

I support most of what you say and your post are very informative. But, going to stop using a Gaelic sentence at the end of your post. It is very annoying for us non-speakers. It doesn't make you a better Scotsman than anyone else.
37

Brianwci,

28/04/2009 01:33:46
Traquir:
"£20bn of taxpayers' money by replacing Trident with a new generation of nuclear weaponry. The cost is equivalent to 800 new city academy schools, 60 medium-sized hospitals or the employment of 20,000 new NHS consultants"

This is what we need from the SNP. Translations of meaningless sums like £20billion into hospitals, schools, miles of motorway, superfast trains etc.

Most of us don't know what a £100,000 is never mind ONE billion.
38

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28/04/2009 01:37:33
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Brianwci,

28/04/2009 01:39:04
TRIDENT is less of a deterrent than it is a TARGET.

In a potential war scenario a first strike is crucial and that first strike is aimed at the other sides WEAPONS, in this case TRIDENT.

And guess what, lucky Scotland is about to become the NUMBER ONE TARGET in the UK.

Three cheers for the Union: Hip Hip H....I don't hear anybody cheering....oh except for dumb loyal Rufus of course.
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28/04/2009 01:39:34
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28/04/2009 01:40:42
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28/04/2009 01:44:10
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Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 28/04/2009 01:45:32
Traquir,

At least tell us what it means!
44

Castaway™ ,

28/04/2009 01:45:53
The Scottish Parliament voted against the replacement the Trident nuclear missile system.
The vote saw 71 MSPs vote against the plan while only 16 voted for the plan, while 39 MSPs abstained. 15 June 2007

The Scottish Parliament has rejected Trident's replacement - The Scottish Government and Parliament may not have the constitutional right of decision on such policies, but they have the unquestionable right, and indeed duty, to express themselves on any issue that concerns the welfare of the people and land of Scotland and where possible the Scottish Government to take any appropriate measures (all legal means) to carry out the will of the Scottish Parliament.
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28/04/2009 01:48:26
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28/04/2009 01:52:45
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Edward,

28/04/2009 01:56:21
Trident should be scrapped
Hopefully we dont have to wait long as Labour will be scrapped next year and the SNP will hold the balance of power in Westminster with about 30 to 35 MP's
We will have interesting times ahead
The referendum on Indendence will also be interesting later the same year
48

Brianwci,

28/04/2009 01:57:42
#44 Quisling Gogs asks:

Is Jackie Baille related to one of them submarines?

QG being naughty won't get us Independence any quicker but it will help to keep our spirits high on the way. Keep it up. lol
49

redcliffe62,

28/04/2009 02:04:57
castaway is right, it is not a snub to snp per se as much as it is a snub to the scottish parliament. 71 to 17 means of those who voted over three quarters were against this project.
this assumes democracy has a place in politics!
the headline could just as easily have been
" scottish parliament view's snubbed by demands for more nuclear weapons in westminster."
"money able to provide for 800 schools and hospitals to be spent making new nuclear toys."
or
"cuts to scottish budget will not affect the new nuclear weapons programme unwanted in scotland by politicians of most parties in holyrood"
somehow, mad dog maddox came up with a spurious suggestion it would cost 11,000 scottish jobs, clearly bull****, so to save 11,000 jobs we need to have these weapons, and then produces an unqualified poll that suggests 55% of people think scotland should pay its fair share, i.e. that we therefore surely accept that it is a good idea.
in a recession, with less money around, this is a key issue at the ballot box, schools or missiles. pensions or submarines. labour should be following its policies from the 1970's, but that was when they were a socialist party.
what will the liberals say? a great chance to nibble a few tory votes away in sw scotland and the highlands perhaps.
and ian gray, what is his opinion, err, will we ever know? now that kim jung brown has decreed what he must support and say.
50

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28/04/2009 02:05:24
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28/04/2009 02:16:54
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 02:22:11
36 1 Traquir,28/04/2009 01:28:47
31 RufusT-Firefly,

"28 1 Traquir,28/04/2009 01:09:03
26 RufusT-Firefly,

"The Pound on a major upward trend against the Euro."

Hmm, from 1.5 to 1.12 in 12 months is an upward trend ?
====================================================

Check your chart for 2009 you dimwit.

The pound has bottomed out in December 2008 and is on the rebound."

You sound more abusive that usual, has something
upset you ? In any case as I mentioned in the
last 12 months (and it was a 12 month chart I linked
to which might have given you a clue)
Sterling has collapsed from 1.5 to 1.12.
I do notice in the last 3 months there has
been a dramatic surge from a low of of about 1.07
to 1.12 :)
====================================================

Inaccurate once again.

It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?
53

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 02:23:56
53 Cynicus in Exile,28/04/2009 02:10:47

I need to read some detail, not read what you think you heard on newsnight.

Show me a link (Ask Traquir to give you one, he has millions).
54

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 02:27:03
29 Cynicus in Exile,28/04/2009 01:09:34
Rufus,

SEPA has indicated that Faslane would have closed down -had it been a civil nuclear installation.
=================================================

Traquir says that SEPA would 'have considered' closing it down.

So who is correct.

Cynicus or Traquir?

Its a tough one.
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28/04/2009 02:29:29
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28/04/2009 02:30:52
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28/04/2009 02:37:27
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28/04/2009 02:44:05
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 02:47:09
Traquir it is time for bed. It has been fun.

Goodnight.
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28/04/2009 02:49:53
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28/04/2009 02:51:59
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28/04/2009 02:56:37
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28/04/2009 04:46:38
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john z,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 05:03:47
This comes straight from the politburo propoganda HQ in London Labour courtesy of the one and only David (Labour propoganda) Maddox.

This is just piffle, to counter the REAL story yesterday of dangerous radiation leaks perpetrated by the english Navy in Scottish Lochs.

Shoddy Journalism, as usual, from the same culprit.


Scotland has no need whatsoever for nuclear submarines - I mean who are we going to launch an attack on???? Think about it. Doh!

Meanwhile, we cannot afford to pay for hospitals due to Gordon Browns economic f**k up.
65

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 06:16:40
67 john z-morning! England has no Navy.
66

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 28/04/2009 06:16:43
#18
No, I was early this morning.
67

Royster,

28/04/2009 06:20:01
SNP looking increasingly irrelevant.
68

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 06:23:14
67 john z-on whom will we launch an attack? I dont think any nation possesing nuclear weapons has any plans to launch an attack on anyone(ironically). These weapons are retained as MAD insurance until such time as an international treaty to scrap nuclear weapons worldwide is agreed.
And that will NEVER happen!
So if one wants to leave oneself defenceless against Nuclear blackmail from the likes of the husseins and Gadaffis future of this world...
69

Saul Tyre,

28/04/2009 06:33:56
So the only argument left for keeping Faslane as a base for nuclear submarines is to save some jobs??? Is Labour getting that desperate? If that is the case, why don't we built a whole load of office blocks staffed by the adult population of Faslane with all the usual departments (personnel, wages, book keeping, safety, security, cleaning, buying...)? There would of course be no sales department as this artificial 'company' would neither produce anything nor would it offer any service, but at least the people would have jobs. Trident is just as useless but it costs billions more and would make the Faslane area a prime target in any nuclear war.

You know that when Labour talks about saving jobs, all other arguments have dried up.
70

McNic,

Too close to Faslane 28/04/2009 06:34:21
We must not allow this to happen!

The entire fleet?

Surely some mistake?
71

Geoff,

28/04/2009 06:54:19
72 Saul Tyre-saul tyre? oh yes I get it-clever play on words squire! Anuway, Faslane would never be the prime target in a nuclear war as all the subs would be at scattered locations around the globe and,once they have discharged their weapons well no further need to target them and perhaps no one left to do the targetting and dont forget London would be obliterated by then along with most other UK cities and, oh i could go on and on but work calls!

Have a good day!
72

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 06:55:54
73 McNic-the entire fleet alas,yes. her Majesty's Navy is much diminished by the traitorous been counters in Westminster so it makes accounting sense to only have one base.
73

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 06:56:51
Bean counters-sorry!
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 07:00:54
55 RufusT-Firefly

“Inaccurate once again.

It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?”

Poor Rufus, once again he shows that figures just aint his thing.

Calculating 10% of any given figure should not be beyond any 10 year-old school child.

However, as Rufus doesn’t do joined up thinking, I guess it should be of no surprise that primary school arithmetic is beyond him.

75

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28/04/2009 07:05:37
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76

Colkitto,

River Clyde 28/04/2009 07:14:07
The Scotsman loyal to Labour till the end.
Whilst most of the people see Labour for what they are, and will oust them from Office at the earliest opportunity.
We have the Scotsman newspaper loyally supporting them till their inevitable death. Going against public opinion to write what can only be described as Labour propaganda.
It is getting close to the ridiculous stage of reporting !
77

PaulSussex,

London 28/04/2009 07:21:29
I thought we were trying to discourage nuclear weapons falling into the hands of potential enemy nations and rogue states.
78

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 07:27:35
Has anyone seen the latest numbers for the "Lets get rid of Comrade Broon" petition????

Looks like the web site may have crashed!!!

Or been pulled by the CIA/MI5/Paddy O'Poison??????
79

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 07:29:59
Panic over!!!!!!!!!!!

Just got onto the "Time to get rid of the worst ever PM" petition.

Numbers up to 20,252!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
80

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/04/2009 07:50:36
Hud on.

Didn't the president of the most powerful nation on Earth state it was time to ride the World of nuclear weapons at a certian speech not so long ago?

Shouldn't that mean that Westmidden, being a lap dog of the USA, fall into line by getting rid of said weapons?

Doesn't that mean they are operating in line with SNP policy?

Lastly, don't we, the citizens of Scotland have a say regarding the leaking radioactive sh*t going into the Clyde?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/16/obama.speech/


Somebody somewhere better have a f_kcing good explanation
81

lachlan,

28/04/2009 07:50:54
what about the poor people from devon loosing their jobs so that scotland can keep jobs.i would have thought that having two bases would have made more sense.
82

tomislav,

Home 28/04/2009 08:01:16
Great news, Scotland has the honour to remain a key focal point for the defence of our beloved United Kingdom, simply great, even more so since it also helps to expose the complete utter irrelevance of this “Scottish Government lunacy” Jobs for the boys indeed, cash for trash.

80. Hey Paul, I must take issue, we in Scotland could never be a potential enemy to England, you are our neighbours, our friends and our brothers. In fact the last time a few hundred years ago, when some Scottish extremists had an uprising, vast numbers of lowland Scottish clans raised willingly to join our English cousins and expelled these “Flowers of Scotland”
83

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/04/2009 08:04:36
Smeg

I can read and I saw the speech and heard the words coming out of his mouth.

Are you sugesting Obama is a liar? Lets hope so.
84

eric,

28/04/2009 08:05:23
It will never happen.
85

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/04/2009 08:06:31
tomislav

Are they your brothers or cousins? You seem confused as to which they are.

What Scottish Extremist uprising are you refering too?
86

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:07:20
Tomahawk missiles can carry conventional or nuclear warheads.

If we must have sea-launched or any other nuclear weapons we do not need a replacement for Trident as the flexibility provided by Tomahawk armed attack subs would be an adequate deterrent.
87

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:09:33
#86/87

A lot of water will flow along the Clyde before 2015.

Do not unfurl your Butcher’s Apron banners in celebration just yet.
88

Linda,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:15:08
Another anti SNP headline and more Labour spin accepted as fact by Scotsman reporters.

Firstly it is the majority wish of the Scottish Parliament that is being snubbed.. so much for meaningful devolution.

Also from House of Commons Hansard.

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian jobs in (i) Scotland and (ii) the rest of the UK rely upon the Trident programme.

Mr. Hoon: The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland, with an additional 6,640 in the rest of the United Kingdom. The number of civilian jobs which indirectly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 300 in Scotland and 5,700 for the rest of the UK

89

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:16:00
the only way to remove the smirk from the great pie eaters face?
close down the local greggs/pie shop
everyone is arguing about jobs,but if the uk was attacked by a nuclear strike,faslane would get nuked to kill off the subs/base
meanwhile westmiden rats run into their shelter
whilst the scots get fried,yes all seems fair to me
we have the target,so we are aime at first,not london or devonport
and what is being done about the rotten sub hulks in rosyth?
nothing,just rusting away polluting scottish waters
90

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:17:29
typo aimed
also this was for #35
91

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/04/2009 08:18:13
"Right, so we're holding on to a few indefinitely just in case, then"

Cool, don't need Faslane then. Now, being a Scot and not one to turn my nose up at skilled and long term emplyoment, you'd think I would be happy about this Faslane thing.

Well no. You see, I have an opinion and this opinion was formulated looooong before the SNP rose to it's feet in prominence i.e. it's an independent thought.

I am not a fan of nuclear, end of. It has nowt to do with the SNP stand point and nowt to do with lie-bore's stand point, it's simply a personal opinion.

I, like Obama, believe in a World without nuclear weapons. I, like Obama, do not want to live in another Cold War. I, like Obama, believe we should lead by example.
92

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/04/2009 08:21:05
Smeg

You are a war mongerer? You enjoy the thought of killing innocent people (because, no matter how accurate something is, innocents will always be slaughtered)? Your comment sure makes that out.

That is a bit of a worry. You seem to be in the "take a JCB to crack a nut" camp.
93

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:24:38
#98 how many would like to live again ,in the shadow of that cuban crisis again?
like Edwin Starr sang in the 70s with his hit "WAR"
War!)
((Hooh!))
Yeah!
(What is it good for?)
Absolutely (nothin').
Uh-ha, aah-ha.
OHHHH! ((War!)) I despise,
'Cause it means destruction of innocent lives,
War means tears to thousands of mother's eyes,
When their sons go to fight and lose their lives.
War!) It ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker,
(War!) Friend only to the undertaker.
OHHH! War is an enemy to all mankind.
The thought of war blows my mind.
War has caused unrest within the younger generation.
Induction then destruction.
Who wants to die?
OHHHH!
i dont see MPs rushing to the front of battle,no hiding in their wee bunkers like hitler
94

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:26:33
The pro-WMD lobby never seem to be able to answer who exactly has been deterred, and from what have they been deterred from doing, by the presence of WMD on the Clyde?
95

Toast,

28/04/2009 08:30:29
Get this abhoration out of Scotland now,it is a disaster waiting to happen,the billions saved will create a lot more jobs
96

,

28/04/2009 08:32:49
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97

Toast,

28/04/2009 08:33:32
Imagine a serial liar like Brown having this power,terrifying
98

Edward,

28/04/2009 08:38:21
What smirking Bailie,MSP for Dumbarton needs to answer is this. Whay accept more nuclear subs from Devenport, when they were leaking at Devenport a well!!
From the Plymouth Herald, Tuesday, November 11, 2008
'Radioactive leak at Devonport''The Royal Navy has confirmed up to 280 litres of water, likely to have been contaminated with tritium, poured from a burst hose as it was being pumped from the submarine in the early hours of Friday. The submarine was alongside at Devonport, after undergoing routine maintenance. "Shortly after midnight on the night of November 6/7, during a standard operation to transfer primary coolant from HMS Trafalgar to an effluent tank on the jetty, a hose ruptured, resulting in a leak of the coolant.the Environment Agency, Health and Safety Executive and the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator have been informed of the incident.Previous reported radioactive spills at the dockyard include one in October 2005, when it was confirmed 10 litres of water leaked out as the main reactor circuit of HMS Victorious was being cleaned to reduce radiation.
Earlier the same year the Environment Agency had threatened legal action against former dockyard owners Devonport Management Limited (DML) after two spillages within the space of a week.'
(http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/RADIOACTIVE-LEAK-SUB-BASE/article-463707-detail/article.html)
So now the problem has been moved to Scotland!

99

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 08:42:40
#41

Tactical Pygmy!

A first strike is useless as the deterrent is already at sea and they cant hit the on ops boat.
100

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 28/04/2009 08:44:59
Hold on - in amongst letting the debate get sidetracked by people foolishly responding to Rufus' braindead trolling, we've somehow let Lapdave Maddox off the hook for outright lying in the article itself.

"SNP Scottish Government ministers who have long campaigned, along with church leaders and other civic groups, to have weapons of mass destruction and nuclear-powered submarines removed from Scotland."

They have? Removing weapons of mass destruction would involve kicking out most of the army. And I haven't heard any SNP ministers demanding the removal of conventionally-armed submarines. (Or even, come to that, the removal of Trident, only the abandomnent of its replacement.)

Can anyone point me to sources for these alleged demands?
101

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:57:17
#96

Cruise missiles fly low enough to avoid defence radars.

If they are so easy to defend against why were the Russians so uptight about their deployment?

They were one of the main reasons why The Russians threw in the towel at the end of the 80's.

Your ignorance continues to amaze me.
102

joppie joppie,

Aberdeen 28/04/2009 08:58:18
How the worms turn.

All those Labour leaders in the 70's when they were young and foolish, joing CND, campaigning for banning the bomb...Funny how once they get a taste of power all their principles fly out the window. Or where they young and foolish???
103

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 08:59:05
#96

How many world capitals are more than 2500km from the sea?
104

Queen D,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 09:08:58
This paper prints so much misinformation that it is hard to decide if this is true or not.
If true I urge you all to e-mail/write to your MSP and MP and demand that they reveal where they stand and how they voted , I seem to remember this was a cross party decision to stop Trident but I could be wrong.
I am really, really angry that we are now to be used as a nuclear dump for WMDs.
We have this huge, hideous and leaking evil on the doorstep of the largest population in Scotland and we have a BBC and newspaper who could'nt give two hoots and blindly continues to support the Westminster Government.
105

The Strategist,

28/04/2009 09:09:38
"Devonport, near Plymouth."...... errrr.. it isn't near Plymouth it's part of Plymouth and no doubt the Plymothians will be less than pleased that work is being taken away from them and transferred to Scotland because of course under the dear leader there is now sod all else to do in Plymouth.
106

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 09:11:04
This is not a snub for the SNP. It's a snub for Scotland and our political representatives. Let's not forget that the majority of MSP's and Scottish MP's of ALL parties voted against the renewal of the Trident system. Given the fact that as we all know, Scotland's major political question is the constitutional issue, and this is also a snub for anyone who aspires to independence as the UK Govt is assuming that can never happen and Scotland is theirs to do with as they like. Even those who don't want independence should recoil at the arrogance of the assumption that these things can just be dumped on us without any real form of consultation.
107

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 09:12:46
113 Whether you like it or not the majority of Scots reject your fondness for Weapons of Mass Destruction. Rather than playing action men games that is the issue you need to address.
108

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 09:16:59
116 There is nothing squeamish about opposing weapons that bring indiscriminate death and are morally wrong. To call these things magnificent is quite frankly sick.
109

SlyFifer,

Somewhere South of Fife 28/04/2009 09:18:28
Of-course no sane person wants Trident anywhere close to Scotland but, to have it foisted on us like 36000 tons of toxic waste from the Olympic site might be seen as a godsend.
An independent Scotland would close Faslane and charge the English government 100 million a year plus clean up costs till it goes. Nice little earner.
110

Walter Ego,

Durness 28/04/2009 09:18:45
Alex, promise us an independent Scottish republic and you'll get my vote.
111

,

28/04/2009 09:21:37
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112

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 09:25:53
SM753 The nuclear deterrent didn't stop Argentina invading the falklands did it! oops

Also you do know how long the target solution is prepared for a launch?
113

Sgian Dubh,

28/04/2009 09:27:09
Very predictable of Rufus Tw@t to be commenting on this anti-snp story, and the swine flu, and not a word about his beloved Brownovitcz climbdown re expenses.
114

Sgian Dubh,

28/04/2009 09:29:25
I was a submariner on a Polaris boat during the 'cold war' in the early 80's. Strangely, at that time it was the Labour party who were shouting the loudest about NOT NEEDING a nuclear deterrant. What has changed their minds now that they are the party in, so called, government?
115

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 09:30:43
116 sm753

I do not believe that you are for real.

I note that even your erstwhile mentor AM2 has dropped any links to you from his laughable blog-site.


Now I wonder why that might be?
116

puskas,

East kilbride 28/04/2009 09:33:37
No121 Tormod,

It also didn't stop a modern nuclear sub at the time sinking a reconditioned WW2 USA battleship.

Yes they came back to the Clyde as hero's flying the skull and crossbones..
117

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 09:34:39
122 Sgian Dubh,

Would that be the same Rufus who cannot work out what 10% means?
118

puskas,

East kilbride 28/04/2009 09:36:51
The U-tube video with Brown the clown would/should frighten the shi* from everyone...

119

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 28/04/2009 09:46:25
sm753: is your throbbing, missile-like erection making it difficult to concentrate on your argument?

It's touching that you have so much faith in the President of Nutteristan's ability to make careful, logical decisions, given that he is by definition a Nutter.
120

puskas,

East kilbride 28/04/2009 09:47:36
How many of the appx. 1000 jobs would be local...

Just a point..

No amount of jobs at Coulport or Faslane would it make acceptable to Scotland and its people....

Baillie comes out of hiding when Westminster Lie bour need an idiot to argue the indefensible.







121

Miss H,

28/04/2009 09:48:00
‘A blow to the SNP Government’ – tee hee. Does anybody think that this would be happening if there WASN’T an SNP Government?

It’s the classic London reaction. Scots getting uppity and voting SNP – buy them off.

Ironically it’s the only circumstances where you could actually talk about a Union dividend – when the Union is under threat.

However it’s all academic. There is no way that the UK can afford to replace Trident. Labour will have gone to the IMF long before that point!!!
122

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 09:52:50
128 Rev you just stole my line!!

By definition a nutter who is intent on using nuclear weapons will not be deterred by a retaliation.
123

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 09:55:00
129 Puskas

Jackie Baillie, spinning for all her worth last night on newsnight e.g. SEPA didn't actually say that..

11,000 jobs at risk....

Question for the slabbers how many defense and military jobs have been lost since Labour came to power?
124

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 09:57:20
130 Indeed Miss H, the next five years are going to be difficult for all of us, I would rather be pushing the wheel of an Independent Scotland than a bankrupt UK PLC.
125

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 10:03:34
129 puskas,

Ms Baillie appears to be of the type who would attempt to justify the retention of WW2 concentration camps because they gave employment to security guards and gas engineers.
126

AJ Fife,

28/04/2009 10:08:57
Once again the swine in Downing St treat the Scottish nation as a convenient cesspit.

All the nasty and dangerous stuff always finds its way to our nation. Hopefully, it won't be for much longer....
127

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 10:09:59
All this talk of moving subs is irrelevant.

The UK is both politically and financially bankrupt.

We'll be crawling to the IMF any time shortly.

The Empire is no more.

Under the expert leadership of Comrade Broon the UK is a laughing stock around the world.

It'll soon be time to rip up the butchers apron for ever!!

And that day can't come quick enough!!!!
128

Arfur,

28/04/2009 10:12:48
Only a complete idiot would be taken in by Labours lies................oh look - there's one there - #2 RufusT-Firefly,
129

andyned,

28/04/2009 10:13:21
123. Old labour would have done the same if they got in. Dont kid yourself. THERE ALL THE SAME.exept the SNP.Did you know its leakin nuk sh$$!T INTO THE CLYDE
130

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 10:13:51

The submarines which are to be relocated from Devon to Faslane don't carry nuclear weapons.

131

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 10:18:44
139 They are attack boats, the very same boats that had problems with leaks.
132

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 10:19:52
139 Just to add those are the leaks that are known about.
133

Thistledhu,

28/04/2009 10:20:03
In reality it probaly wont happen Devenport is a strong tory seat if you think back to the demise of Rosyth this was due to a straight choice between rosyth and devonport Rosyth was ready with dry docks and full nuclear licence devonport many years on still hasent got the full facilities needed.

If the torys were willing to take a blatent political move against defence needs and advice the last time what makes people think they wont this time
134

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 10:20:16

#135 AJ Fife

'Once again the swine in Downing St treat the Scottish nation as a convenient cesspit.'


#130 Miss H

'‘A blow to the SNP Government’ – tee hee. Does anybody think that this would be happening if there WASN’T an SNP Government?

It’s the classic London reaction. Scots getting uppity and voting SNP – buy them off.'



Welcome to the confusing world of the paranoid cyber gnat.

135

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 10:20:39
#139

How do you know they don't carry nuclear warheads for their Tomahawks?
136

gus1940,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 10:21:18
#125

Light Cruiser NOT Battleship.
137

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 10:21:42
Hey Rufus

You were compolaining that the "Lets get rid of the idiot Comrade Broon" petition had some dodgy names among the 21,216 who have signed to date.

You should have a look at the latest petition site.
"Lets keep Comrade Broon as Our Dear Leader of this great country" which has 53 votes. There are some good names there!!!!!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/support-the-PM/
138

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 10:24:11
I see even the 88p bathplug has voted for Comrade Broon!!!
139

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 10:29:19
Meanwhile, over at “The Herald” appears the following report:


“Jackboot Smith considers plan to let firms monitor internet and calls



TORCUIL CRICHTON, Chief UK political correspondent

Big Brother-style monitoring of private internet, text messages and telephone traffic could be carried out by communication companies on behalf of the UK Government.
Jacqui Smith, the two Homes Secretary yesterday announced a retreat from a single central database to track everyone's usage of mobile phones, websites like Facebook and Twitter and their work and personal e-mails. Instead the Home Office is looking at a £2bn solution that would involve requiring companies such as BT, Virgin Media, O2 and others to retain such personal data for up to 12 months.”

Ah well, I guess all of us dissenting “CyberNats” can soon expect a dawn knock at the door before being carted off to a suitably secure location surrounded by radioactive waters.


Perhaps they will adapt the Faslane Peace Camp for this purpose?
140

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 10:32:40
142 Indeed there is a wee thing called a General Election going to take place next year.
141

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 10:35:52
#146 Jimmy Le Pie


Well done, Tory boy.

You are obviously very excited at the prospect of having Bullingden club member Dave as Prime Minister.

142

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 10:41:06
150 Only somebody who lives in a bunker would believe that "Things can only get better!"
143

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 28/04/2009 10:41:55
I could happen (or it has to happen) that we give up nuclear weapons and and Obama has put it on the table. But unlikely for this year. Therefore the UK's deterrant fleet has to continue. At least SEPA are bringing up the issue of nuclear leaks, and we hope the RN'll fix this.
144

AJ Fife,

28/04/2009 10:43:27
#143,

It's only confusing for a half-wit like yersel!
145

Thistledhu,

28/04/2009 10:44:06
150 Yes but we have to face the reality of a Tory goverment and what that means for scotland.
146

,

28/04/2009 10:46:46
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147

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 10:47:21
147 Jimmy Le Pie,

“I see even the 88p bathplug has voted for Comrade Broon”

Yes, it was a postal vote, however, no-one was able to verify whether it came from a designated home or a second home as the register was lost.

A spokesperson for the Labourites said “that whereas we do have a great tradition of thick planks turning up in person to vote for us, it is quite unreasonable to suggest that all our bath plugs should be asked to do so. Many of them have important tasks in their communities to perform, at all times of the day and the night.

We fully respect the role carried out by our many loyal and hard-working bath-plugs, without whom Britain would be a much less content and prosperous nation.

My Grandmother was a bath plug from the bogs of Scotland dontcha know?”
148

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 10:50:53
#156 bully wee alba


Vote for Dave!

You know it makes sense!
149

,

28/04/2009 11:00:31
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150

,

28/04/2009 11:01:35
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151

Conan the Librarian™,

28/04/2009 11:03:24
156
I feel sorry for Purnell's puir wee neglected sink plug.
152

SINGAPOREAN,

stonehaven 28/04/2009 11:20:04
The irony is that, were we in Scotland to get rid of "our" weapons of mass destruction, we would become enemies of the USA - just like Iraq.
153

Saul Tyre,

28/04/2009 11:26:05
#74 wrote:

"72 Saul Tyre-saul tyre? oh yes I get it-clever play on words squire! Anuway, Faslane would never be the prime target in a nuclear war as all the subs would be at scattered locations around the globe and,once they have discharged their weapons well no further need to target them and perhaps no one left to do the targetting and dont forget London would be obliterated by then along with most other UK cities and, oh i could go on and on but work calls!"

Well said squire. Why target Faslane when onlly one or two submarines with nuclear weapons happen to be present? A few hundred propaganda leaflets dropped from a plane would be more like it. No wonder the pro-Trident lobby has been reduced to the feeble employment argument. I don't see the Canadians, Germans or Italians rushing to set up nuclear-submarine bases on their territory for the sake of a few jobs.

Jackie Baillie would welcome asbestos factories into her constituency if it meant more jobs.
154

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 11:27:16
Another take on this issue, from The Herald 28/04/09.


Only MoD immunity ‘has saved Faslane’

ROBBIE DINWOODIE and MICHAEL SETTLE

Faslane Trident base would have been shut down by civilian environmental authorities if the Ministry of Defence did not have immunity, it emerged yesterday.
The Clyde facility is also likely to become the UK's sole nuclear submarine base within six years, according to reports released under Freedom of Information rules.
The MoD described safety failings at Faslane, on the Gare Loch as a "recurring theme" following major leaks of radioactive coolant from nuclear submarines in 2004, 2007 and 2008 into the Firth of Clyde.
a
Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (Sepa) warned it would consider closing the base if it had the power to do so but civil radioactive safety regulations do not apply to MoD sites, although the department has previously said it would volunteer to uphold them at the base.
155

Conan the Librarian™,

28/04/2009 11:28:12
158
At time of posting, the petition has actually shrunk to six names.
Could only happen to Gordon.
156

alanh,

ek 28/04/2009 11:28:38
"Whitehall sources also insisted that there is still strong support for Trident in Scotland.

A source said: "The last survey I saw on it said 55 per cent of people think that Scotland should pay its fair share for the deterrent."

sorry but what does that mean? When was this "survey" done and what was the question?
Is it not quite a leap of faith to say that since 55% think that we should always pay our share that that means 55% of people are in favour of keeping WMDs in our country?
157

Wyrdtimes,

Land of fools... 28/04/2009 11:28:39
It's government policy - jobs for j.... er Scots.
158

Tris,

28/04/2009 11:32:25
#11

Thanks for that information Traquir. I knew I'd heard it somewhere.

Additionally, the fact that the site leaks radio active material, and that when it does no action is taken is another source of concern, or should be.

But I guess they think, well, it's only Scotland, who gives a ......?

You'd have thought that the local MSP might have given a......, but there you go.

Orders from HQ is orders from HQ.
159

bluehead,

edinburgh 28/04/2009 11:33:19
tell brown and his unruly mob to stick his nuclear apparatus where the monkeys stick their nuts,this labour goverment gets worse by the day,they are now a national disease and causing untold misery to eveyone,when they are booted out at the next election let us hope tthey will be out for ever
what a shower!!!
160

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 11:35:05
#38Dark Lochnagar

#45Dark Lochnagar

Speak for yourself in which ever language you choose.

If you need translations of Traquir's Gàidhlig phrases copy it, google it, or:

tinyurl.com/traquirsgems

Traquir, keep it up.






Traquir,
161

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 11:37:21


How many people are employed at Faslane?

162

Stan Butler,

28/04/2009 11:41:59

#159 theunionmustgo,


Another Tory boy.

Or should that be Tory laddie.
163

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 11:42:59
170 Stan Butler,


“How many people are employed at Faslane?”


How many people were employed at Buchenwald and Dachau?
164

Eve,

Scotland 28/04/2009 11:57:16
#161 SINGAPOREAN: Surely the Amercain aren't daft!

It wasn't us who agreed to have them. It was the eejits in Westminster that agreed to have them, maybe they should relocate them in the Thames write next to the House of Commons.
165

,

28/04/2009 12:06:07
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166

Marga,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 12:10:47
And meanwhile, in Plymouth:

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/OFFICIAL-BASE-FUTURE-SECURE/article-940510-detail/article.html

OFFICIAL: The future of Devonport Naval Base is secure
167

John S,

28/04/2009 12:11:09
A source said: "The last survey I saw on it said 55 per cent of people think that Scotland should pay its fair share for the deterrent.

A source did the survey explain:-

HOW MUCH WILL IT REALLY COST TO REPLACE TRIDENT?
buying replacement weapons system / £15 - 20 billion
operating new system 2024-2054 / £49 - 59 billion
operating existing system 2007-2023 / £26 - 31 billion
total cost 2007-2054 / £90 - 110 billion

Sunday Herald, 11 February 2007
168

nova albion,

28/04/2009 12:19:44
So, having a nuclear base in Scotland is more important than having 40% of the UK population affected by swine flu. I can assure you,the nuclear base will not kill you,the swine flu epidemic just might!
169

Bejjy,

Europe 28/04/2009 12:21:27
#173 Eve,

If all the representatives at Westminster elected by the people of the United Kingdom are, according to you, "eejits" (whatever that is) what does that make the armchair politician such as yourself and your ilk who probably haven't the ability to manage the proverbial p**sup in a brewery. By all means criticise politicians and Government policy but please do it in an adult manner and by not using such provacative words such as "eejits" which probably says more about you and your ilk than it does of politicians. And as for your comment @155 that the news is "great news for people living in Devon" where is your evidence, if any, for that assertion. If you read the local Devon press you will find that there is dismay that these jobs are being lost to Faslane. And I would suggest to you that the 11,000 workforce at Faslane are happy with this announcement which will secure their jobs in a time of global economic uncertainty. And finally, why is it that the Scots, or at least the ones that habituate these forums, are more paranoid about nuclear power than are people from most other nations?
170

nova albion,

28/04/2009 12:35:05
Eve. Do you think by not having a nuclear capability the UK will be safer and will not be affected if such a conflict should break out! I'm sorry to tell you, but,we would be the first to be attacked as we would not be able to defend ourselves but our knowledge and know how are valuable to such an attacker.
171

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 12:35:42
#156 Bully Wee,

Superb post.

They've cleaned up the Save Comrade Broon petition!!

We now have sensible people like Ivor Broquen-Printer and
Mr N.O. McMandate showing their undying affection for Our Dear Leader!! The number of votes are down to 11.

On the real petition "To get rid of Our Dear Dumpling" there are 22,267!!!!
172

,

28/04/2009 12:36:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
173

Sedov,

28/04/2009 12:37:34
The campaign for an anti nuclear weapon world is not national but international as an independent Scotland would at best only be able to move Faslane to Barrow or Berwick and the workers would follow -so whats the difference?

Only international solidarity across all nations can a peaceful world be acheived. Nationalism and seperation works against that principle.

Nuclear radiation and leaks cross all borders, real or imaginary, so the idea that an SNP led nationalist government can bring about a nuclear free Scotland is ludicrous.
174

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 12:41:22
180 Again having WMD didn't stop the falklands war did it?

And also again if a nutter does have a WMD they will want to use it, with no regards to the consequences.
175

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 12:42:47
77 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 28/04/2009 07:00:54
55 RufusT-Firefly

“Inaccurate once again.

It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?”
Poor Rufus, once again he shows that figures just aint his thing.
Calculating 10% of any given figure should not be beyond any 10 year-old school child.
===================================================

Dear oh Dear. Bully Boy in his usual rush to correct me blows it once again.

He cannot even do a simple 10% calculation. What an idiot.

He even says himself that such a simple task would not be beyond a 10 year old child. He is right.

It is beyond the innumerate Bully Boy however.

Maybe he never went to school like a normal person.
I have often wondered that before.
Some of his shockingly poor posts on here suggest a definite lack of education.

It looks like confirmation has arrived. It must be true.

Bully Boy here is a lesson for you.
I said the jump was greater than 10%.
Let us look at Traquir Alba's Tiny url from above.

tinyurl.com/d56r5r

Low point was £1 = 1.0198 Euros
Yesterdays close was £1 = 1.1233 Euros

Tell me Bully Boy, what percentage rise was that?

Let me tell you.

It is 10.149%.

I think that you will find that 10.149% is greater than 10%.

Bully Boy, you have made a complete fool of yourself once again. You failed the 10 year old maths test.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dunces Hat for Bully Boy.
176

,

28/04/2009 12:44:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

David MacVicar,

web 28/04/2009 12:45:47
Lets not get too concerned with this 'announcement'.

Timing
Comes when the military say Trident is useless.
Comes when major safety and environmental concerns are mase public.
Comes as Labour are preparing for a GE and know they will be beaten, just not by how much. Damage limitation time.

Numbers: You know this is a load of nonesense when an article starts spouting baseless 11,000 jobs Labour fantasy.

So Will it or could it happen? Err No.
Supposedly a relocation will be made by 2015 well into a tory government who are unlikely to follow this up.


This is a Political exercise in desperation Labour style.
178

IainGlasgow,

28/04/2009 12:47:39
#64

" think that was the same days when Labour thronged
to abolish the House of Lords"

Changed days now, every time you blink another (unaccountable) peer has been given a post in the cabinet.
179

IainGlasgow,

28/04/2009 12:48:45
#64

" think that was the same days when Labour thronged
to abolish the House of Lords"

Changed days now, every time you blink another (unaccountable) peer has been given a post in the cabinet. Plus it highlights the sheer dearth of talent on the Labour benches that they can't seem to find MPs to fill these roles.
180

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 28/04/2009 12:49:19
"Trafalgar class submarines"

How appropriate:

"England expects" - the Scottish media to spin this outrageous, undemocratic insult to Scotland as yet another anti-snp story.

I think there should a list of the key Labour/media players who are responsible for spewing this rubbish. They will be held to account one day and it's about time they realised it.
181

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 12:51:02
As Comrade Broon and Rufus will never tire of telling you, if it wasn't for our glorious union and empire we here in Scotland would all be dead from the Piggy Flu

God save Paddy O'Poison!!!!
182

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 12:51:09
BULLY BOY, you have 'hurt me to the quick' as you would say.

HAHAHAHA, he sits on here all day correcting everybody else as well.

What a tool.
183

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 28/04/2009 12:51:13
187 Agreed Dave, wee dave from London will cancel this decision for sure after the next election.

Another own goal for slab
184

Bejjy,

Europe 28/04/2009 12:51:24
182 theunionmustgo,

According to Wikipedia, Faslane employs 4000 civilians, 3000 service personnel and there are 800 service families living there. That is nearer the 11,000 mentioned in this article than the 1000 you quote. What is your evidence for your seemingly inaccurate assertion?
185

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 12:52:12
(#10) – (1 Traquir) – If we say after the next General Election David Cameron is Prime Minister and the conservatives scrap the Trident replacement, what do you think they are more likely to do with the money saved?

Do you think they are more likely to build to 800 new city academy schools, 60 medium-sized hospitals and employ 20,000 new NHS consultants?

Or do you think they would use the money to reduce taxation?
(#11) – (1 Traquir) – Why did Sir Hugh Beach say nuclear weapons are useless?

If the ownership of our conventional weapons didn’t stop Argentina from trying to annex the Falkland Islands in 1982 does that mean conventional weapons are useless too and should be scrapped?


(#15) – (1 Traquir) – If the Scottish government has ruled that they are against WMD then why haven’t they also called for Scottish regiments to be only lightly armed?
186

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 12:53:50
188 Cynicus in Exile,28/04/2009 12:46:09

Sorry Cynicus, I amm too busy laughing at Bully Wee Alba.

He says even a 10 year old school child can calculate a 10% value, but Bully Boy himself can't do it.

What a spectacular own goal.

The whole of Scotsman Towers is laughing at him.
187

lachlan,

28/04/2009 12:54:12
you feel this descision may change.if my memory serves me correct some years ago there a debate as to whether rosyth(who were experienced in the job)or devonport (less experienced)got the work to refit nuclear subs.the government at the time was tory i think.against the odds devenport got the work.
tory gov. in soon.....
188

Queen D,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 12:56:52
Go to Moriduras blog he has the Channel 4 report there and it is awful.
No-one can excuse this abuse of Scotland and her people, not even the " journalists " of the Scotsman.
189

Michael N,

Helensburgh 28/04/2009 13:00:07
As a Helensburgh resident I welcome this news. It will be an incredible boost for our economy. Helensburgh is looking in quite a sad state of late. I look forward to happier days for our town.
190

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:03:48
Who can forget this classic...............

84 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 24/02/2009 10:33:03

I’m sure Scotland’s First Minister will be hurt to the quick following your reasoned, carefully researched, balanced and articulate decimation of his character.
==================================================

"Hurt to the Quick"

"hurt to the quick"?

What on earth does that mean Bully Boy?

Or did you mean "cut to the quick"?

Bully Boy takes great pride in correcting everyone else's, typos, numeracy, spelling errors and grammatical inconsistencies.

If you are going to spend your life on here correcting everyone's mistakes Bully Boy, then you really will need to clean up your act.

"hurt to the quick"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
191

nova albion,

28/04/2009 13:06:00
184. As Argentina does not have a nuclear capability,your argument is pointless.

192

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:07:40
Here is Bully Boy with his new hat.

http://aarvidi.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/dunce-cap-1.gif
193

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 28/04/2009 13:08:33
119

Walter, I agree? Scottish republic now.
194

nova albion,

28/04/2009 13:10:31
200.Get real. This will benefit the scottish economy.
And stop the "woe is me" stance.
195

nova albion,

28/04/2009 13:14:06
205. PLEASE! But there will be no return when you are penniless,as most of the economic world acknowledges will happen.
196

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 13:21:16
Rufus

“It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?”

That percentage increase is 9.8255.

When I went to school, that was less than 10.


Rufus, more than 10% short of a picnic.



197

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 13:26:29
Ewan,

Are you really as stupid as the questions you ask???
198

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:27:46
HAHAHAHA Bully Wee Alba trying his Harry Houdini Act.

The Link was in the post.

I rounded down to 1.12 for the sake of brevity (an alien concept to Traquir Alba).

The link clearly stated 1.1233.

You scored another spectaular own goal through trying to be a smart ass!

FACT!

What was that you were saying about a 10 year child again?

HAHAHAHA
199

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 13:28:43


#179 Bejjy

"And finally, why is it that the Scots, or at least the ones that habituate these forums, are more paranoid about nuclear power than are people from most other nations?"

Have a wee look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/no-choice

"no oil, no gas, no coal, no choice."





200

Sumlogic,

Rufus joke 28/04/2009 13:29:52
I honestly believe that this Rufus thing is a joke, just ignore it...whoever or whatever organisation sits behind it must be having a laugh, otherwise who would post such moronic nonsense.

It will go away if ignored.
201

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:31:25
Bully boy will be quoting the previously unknown wiki answers in a minute to try and get out of his 'hurt to the quick' faux pas.

He sits on here all day long, correcting everyone else whilst at the same time making elementary mistakes that (as he says) even a ten year old would not make.

HAHAHAHA
202

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 13:31:58
Stan Butler - it does not matter whether these particular submarines carry nuclear missiles or not. The decision to concentrate all submarines at Faslane secures it's place as the location for Trident. The same Trident system which Senior Generals have described as being completely useless and a waste of money.

203

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 13:32:13
(#210) - (jimmy le pie) - Am I not allowed to ask questions I believe are suitable for those on this forum like you?
204

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 13:32:59
Rufus

Your post vebatim:

55 RufusT-Firefly

“Inaccurate once again.

It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?”




Did you really mean some other figure, and not the one you actually used?

How odd!

205

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 13:36:34
#217

The Generals description is due to in service fighting. They want the money for the Army FRES project.
206

,

28/04/2009 13:37:29
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207

Chris W,

Argyll 28/04/2009 13:38:36
The SNP need to get a grip on reality. The UK is never going to give up its nuclear deterent whilst any potential enemy has, or has any chance of developing, nuclear capability. End of story. Given the investment in Faslane, and its suitable location, the UK government is never going to relocate the base. So can we drop the paranoia about nuclear weapons and focus on things that have some relevance to people's daily lives please?
208

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 13:42:11
#222

Concur, I agree with a lot of SNP domestic policies but on defence they are uneducated and obviously ill advised. they pin their hat on full restoration of all Scottish regiments which would lead to a very imbalanced force structure unless the SDF were to be twice the size proposed. they make emotional sattements about nuclear submarines and that is about it.
209

Elephant,

Linlithgow 28/04/2009 13:43:20
#218
I think Ewan's questions were rhetorical so he wasn't expecting your brutish reply. The points he made about govt. spending should trident be cancelled are bang on. And I suspect the exaggerated point about the Scottish infantry was to stress a wider issue - that an important part of our economy and employment is linked to UK military spending. Could someone answer me a genuine question - what are the SNPs broad defence ideals post independence?
210

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 13:43:53
220 As I understand it the former head of the Armed Services says that the defence budget would be better spent on conventional weapons. That sounds sensible to me. He and the other Generals say the point of renewing Trident is political. I would agree with him.
211

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:44:04
219 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 28/04/2009 13:32:59
Rufus
Your post vebatim:
55 RufusT-Firefly
“Inaccurate once again.
It has jumped from 1.0198 (as stated on your link) to 1.12. I reckon thats greater than a 10% jump, don't you? Is that not rather dramatic?”
Did you really mean some other figure, and not the one you actually used?
How odd!
====================================================

It is only part of the post you innumerate dunce.

You failed to include the part, included further up in that post, that said......

'Check your chart for 2009'

Something you obviously did, but your 'worse than primary 5' level maths showed you up big time.

You made a complete fool of yourself and now you are wriggling like a little worm to try and get out of it.

How pathetic.
212

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 13:45:06
So, in the space of one morning, we have had Rufus discredited yet again as an innumerate moron and Smee exposed as an imbecilic troll disowned even by his own former mentor.

A result!
213

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 13:49:50



#215 sm753

"Sorry to butt in between you and RTF, but the thing is there are parts of this country where a small increase in radiation-induced mutation would actually improve the gene pool...

Boom-boom!"

Is this what you had in mind?

http://tinyurl.com/improve-the-gene-pool




214

,

28/04/2009 13:51:36
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215

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 13:53:31
Oh Dear.

As if the Banks were not in enough trouble, the SNP are now trying to force them to produce cheques in Gaelic.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8022710.stm

Also in todays Daily Express, the SNP is trying to force Scottish radio stations to play Scottish music.

Imagine if we had independence, it would be like living behind a new Iron Curtain.
216

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 13:55:12
(#224) – (Elephant) – What would you say if I said that my questions are generally only rhetorical for those who do not have the capacity to answer them for their selves?
217

,

28/04/2009 13:55:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
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218

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 13:58:25


#215 sm753

".........but the thing is there are parts of this country where a small increase in radiation-induced mutation would actually improve the gene pool...

Boom-boom!"

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,934167,00.jpg


219

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 13:59:31
231 RufusT-Firefly,
“Oh Dear.
As if the Banks were not in enough trouble, the SNP are now trying to force them to produce cheques in Gaelic”


I have had Gaelic language cheque-books since 1978.

Is my money worth 10% less than yours?

Har-de-har-de-har!
220

AJM,

28/04/2009 14:01:01
This is good news for the local economy and as such should be welcomed. If there was ever any doubt that the mantra SNP the only party that puts Scotland first, was false it is over issues like this. SNP policy if it were able to enact it would bring about a decline in the area that would take decades to recover.
221

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 14:01:38
237 Bully Boy

Yes RBS have done them for many years.

What a waste of time/money/effort.
222

,

28/04/2009 14:03:48
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223

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 14:05:59


#215 sm753

".........but the thing is there are parts of this country where a small increase in radiation-induced mutation would actually improve the gene pool...

Boom-boom!"

Warning, gruesome stuff.

http://tinyurl.com/sm753humour




224

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 14:07:49

#138 andyned

Have a look at this.

http://tinyurl.com/leaks-faslane
225

AJM,

28/04/2009 14:08:50
Cynicus in Exile
"Do I detect a hint of vested interest, possibly from Argyll's white settler community, in this plea? Hope your numbers will be augmented soon by an influx from Devonport?"
====================================
SNP not content with trying to dictate music to played on the airwaves, gaelic cheques and now we get comments that a pro SNP poster believes in no freedom of movement for jobs. Or is a way of sneaking in SNP xenophobia quickly followed by the usual denial.
226

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 14:16:21
(#240) – (RufusT-Firefly) – Isn’t good communication skills essential for those running a business?

Isn’t Gaelic one of Scotland’s native languages?

If Gaelic is one of Scotland’s native languages and businesses wish to make native Gaelic speakers feel comfortable so they direct their money towards them wouldn’t having a service incorporating Gaelic help the process?
227

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:24:16
Ewan,

You asked "If the ownership of our conventional weapons didn’t stop Argentina from trying to annex the Falkland Islands in 1982 does that mean conventional weapons are useless too and should be scrapped?"

Are you seriously asking that question??

We are talking about weapons which are a thousand times more powerful than the one that flattened Hiroshima!!

An AK47 or a tank are slightly different ore didn't you know there is a difference.

Also an AK 47 costs £15 a Trident programme is Billions!!

Comrade Broon has bankrupted the country!! We're skint!!

We can hardly go to the IMF and ask for a bail out to buy Trident weapons, can we???
228

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 14:28:10
241 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 14:03:48

Do you still think Britain's currency is the Euro?

Be careful, because if you head off to Benidorm for your Summer Holidays, you may find the shops over there refusing to accept your money.
229

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 14:28:54
245 Ewan Randall,28/04/2009 14:16:21
(#240) – (RufusT-Firefly) – Isn’t good communication skills essential for those running a business?

Isn’t Gaelic one of Scotland’s native languages?

If Gaelic is one of Scotland’s native languages and businesses wish to make native Gaelic speakers feel comfortable so they direct their money towards them wouldn’t having a service incorporating Gaelic help the process?
================================================

EEERRRMMMMMMM NO!
230

Sedov,

28/04/2009 14:28:56
#186 the union etc

" A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step"

The problem is that the vast majority of English people, as I understand, do want English nationalism and in fact want Scotland to stay in the union.

But its the workers in the MOD dockyards and nuclear bases that hold the key. I know for a fact that many of those workers hate the principle of MWD, (I have talked to them at Faslane on Demos) but they have to earn a living so we need a viable alternative- eg a mass programme of public works under workers control to soak up the job loss that the closing of Faslane would bring about......but that is not the ethos of the SNP and it is way far too left for the way they think and operate and the workers at Faslane know that so what they have, they hold.

English workers in similar jobs hold the same views and would rub their hands at the prospect of Faslane moving down to england - but if a a left wing programme as mentioned above was posed across the UK as a whole by a socialist government then we would be able to at least start the 1st step across the UK -and that would be an almighty step towards a world free of nuclear weapons.
231

bluepict,

28/04/2009 14:29:53
More and more I am comming to the conclusion that the people who support westminsters control over Scotland have no love nor pride in either themselves or Scotland.

Whether it be Thatchers poll Tax,trident or numerous other things,the message comming from Westminster is a clear slap in the face,a message of total disrespect. A scottish vote has no meaning anymore.

Personally, I would never vote for any party that prolongs the very out dated union, ever.

They say that by 2015 all the Tridents will be stationed in Scotland.Well one morning they will wake up to find all their war ships parked neatly side by side in the Thames where they belong,down South.

Because By that time it is to be hoped that the voters in Scotland would have seen the light and Independence will become a reality sooner than later.
232

Sedov,

28/04/2009 14:30:41
correction to 249 above - "The vast majority of English people do NOT want natinalism and in fact want Scotland to stay in the union".
233

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:33:39
#231

When you read the drivel on #231 you know that the onionists have acknowledged that they have lost the argument.

Roll on Independence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
234

,

28/04/2009 14:40:55
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235

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:41:39
Seems like Our Dear Leader's latest "I've saved the world" world tour is going from bad top worse.

After being humiliated in Pakistan, he gets it in the neck from the Polish PM!!!

From the Times,

Brown left red-faced by debt lecture from Polish Prime Minister

"With Mr Brown standing next to him, Mr Tusk said that one of the main reasons Poland has so far managed to avoid the ravages of the credit crisis was because Warsaw had "efficient supervision to banks and sticking to the rules.... not exaggerating with living on credit. These are the most certain ways of avoiding [the consequences] of financial crisis."
236

,

28/04/2009 14:45:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:49:11
I see Our Dear Leader has lost the rag in Poland when asked by journalists (no one from the Hootsmon of course!)

From The Telegraph,


Gordon Brown in angry outburst over expenses!

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, has angrily rejected criticism over his failed attempt to reform Parliamentary expenses - and vowed to press ahead with a timescale already rejected by the Commons sleaze watchdog.
238

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:53:22
Even the bottom feeders are criticising Our Dear Leader!!

From The Guardian,

"Labour's Byers attacks 'cynical' tax rise to 50%

Labour's Byers attacks 'cynical' 50% tax
Ex-minister warns that party will regret broken manifesto pledge 'for many years to come'
239

,

28/04/2009 14:54:00
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240

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 14:56:48
#258 theunionmustgo

Is not the Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment in Caithness next door to Dounrey???
241

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 14:58:15
#258

The arguement is whether Faslane would stay open without Trident. This would lead to far more job losses. Also a non nuclear scotland would lose all submarine related jobs as they move down South. More again.
242

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 28/04/2009 15:00:50
So thats Rufus and smeagor as usual trying to somehow smear and discredit the SNP and supporters. Sad thing is they never put forward coherent argument against independence.
Tip for you lads, calling people names, or Mr Salmond, Fat Eck,is not going to convince people that Scotland should stay in the Union. Your going to have to do a lot better than that.

At the moment you both look pathetic little losers.
243

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:05:47
262 Hamish Longdirk,NZ 28/04/2009

Have you worked out what the Eurozone is yet Hamish you dimwit?
244

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 15:08:42
I see the petition "Quit now Comrade Broon and give us peace" has passed the 23,000 mark.

The other petition is gaining numbers too!! Up to 43 now!!

Here are just a few of the latest signatories,

# Karl Marx
# Dolly Draper
# Orson Carte
# Phil McHunt
# Imoff Tofrance
# Nucking Futter
# R Ving-Lhuun
# Mr Bunk Spubble (Labour supporter)
# it's oor oil
# Andrew Marr
# F* ck off back to Scotland
# Arthur Brown Pen is
# Do you think you'll manage to get to 10 REAL signatures?
# Referee R.ndum and U. Ropevote
# Mr Barnett Dividend (Scottish Labour)
245

argonaut,

east lothian 28/04/2009 15:08:53

im surprised at some of the postings ref : trident !

Trident is an expensive white elephant that has no place in todays world. the nature of trident i.e a strategic missile system designed to shower multiple nuclear warheads over a pre designated region of the planet. a strategic nuclear missile system can only ever be used against a soveriegn enemy that has a similar strategic missile system, outwith Nato and its allies - only russia, china and possibly a future Iran have/ could have similar that could ever effect the UK.

Firstly, it is a strategic mistake to put all your nuclear deterrent at one location i.e faslane / gareloch, obviously this will become the number 1 target for any country with the balls to launch an attack with a strategic missile weapon and if a rogue nation / terrorist group wished to detonate a dirty bomb and managed to infiltrate faslane , then with both scenarios the UK's sub fleet is comletely nullified with the exception of the 1 supposed nuke boat that is meant to be on patrol at any one time.
( putting all your eggs in one basket in this case is simply down to government / treasury cutbacks - a massive strategic mistake)

2nd : - In my opinion a limited nuclear deterrent can be a good thing, tactical nuclear cruise missiles can be bought off the shelf from the USA and developed further here and are so so so much cheaper than developing / installing / managing a strategic nuclear missile system. if a nuclear war ever happened , the enemy is not concerned with a strategic system causing massive civilian casualties,its main worry is its military bases / op centres being destroyed. Astute subs and future subs by design operate via stealth - difficult to locate - enemy is freaked by the thought that these subs are prowling the seas/ enemy waters. These or any subs armed with tactical off the shelf nuclear cruise missiles are a massive deterrent in itself - unbelievably accurate, operate below radar and pack a hell of a punch, can
246

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:11:13
260 Cynicus in Exile,28

Just read it.

Sounds bad.

247

argonaut,

east lothian 28/04/2009 15:11:57
can destroy military or civilian targets with a tactical single nuclear warhead. Can be fitted to surface ships , subs , aircraft easily and i say again - a lot lot more cost effective than trident and your nuclear force is dispersed making it very difficult to destroy!

trident is all about politicians wanting to say to the rest of the world - look at us - we have a bigger stick than you but in practice this is a stick that will never be used - the defence chiefs know this !

future wars dictate a strong, flexible conventional military with rapid transport capability - having a decent tactical cruise missile system among the subs, surface fleet and some jet squadrons incase we hit end game. this wont happen in the immediate future tho, labour / westminster has contributed to the UK's massive deficit that will take generations to pay off and in the meantime the defence budget will be slashed - hence the MOD thinking of having only 2 naval bases - sheer madness !

cancel trident / cancel the olympics and save a possible 100 billion. bolster the conventional military, let english nationalism rise, let their be an english parliament for english issues - this will fracture this silly entity that is called the Union even further and free scotland !
248

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 15:14:41
#265

You cannot gain a "strategic" effect from a tactical system. As the SSN boats will be based in Faslane your eggs are still in one basket. tactical TLAM does not have sufficient range to make it a startegic weapon. The SSBN does and it guarantees a first strike ot second strike capability capable of delivering 1 warhead onto a target the size of a football field at massive range.
249

,

28/04/2009 15:15:50
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250

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 15:18:15
#267

"future wars dictate a strong, flexible conventional military with rapid transport capability"

Exactly, the term used is expeditionary. Hence the 2 aircraft carriers. Trident is a strategic asset held at Government level. In the military it is reffered to as teh deterrent and just because the RN operate it at the moment they do not have strategic ownership.
251

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 28/04/2009 15:18:32
261 All Politicians are the same, Actually I don't think they are, some are better than others.

Rufus and smeagor would have us believe that Salmond is trying to get Scottish independence so he alone would control and rule Scotland!!!! As if?

Anyway since we're on the subject of Trident. A few years ago I was down working on a sub in Devenport. I was told by the lads down there. That the contract (in 91)to refit the subs was rigged so the work would go to England so to save English jobs and the seat of some scumbag Tory.

Remember Roysth and Devenport in 91?

And that is despite the fact that Rosyth had more experience, was 22 million cheaper, and had the proper facility's. Devenport got the contract, but then had to spent more than one billion to BUILD new facility's that Roysth had in the first place.

But I was also told that Scotland would be the dumping ground for the spent reactors, so no surprise there eh?

Vote SNP the only party that can deliver independence and proper democracy to Scotland.
252

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:19:22
255 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 14:45:02
254 Jimmy Le Pie
Snap :)
I wonder why Dufus has not responded to my post 241 ?
====================================================

Because it was so poorly constructed and inaccurate. However seeing as you seem to be insisting.


"Would that be the 1 year chart that I gave you a link to which shows
a dramatic fall of Sterling versus Euro for the 12 month period ?
Perhaps you just focused on about 25% of chart for brevity also :)"

I focused on 2009 as I stated above. The current trend started then. The old trend finished end of 2008. I stated that far from heading towards parity, the current trend shows the pound strengthening against the Euro.

Do you disagree with my analysis of the current trend?
253

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/04/2009 15:19:36
#269

Remind me how many jews the RN has gassed? You just made the comparison like a typical sick Nat.
254

,

28/04/2009 15:20:32
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255

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 15:22:32
(#246) – (Jimmy Le Pie) – What is it about my question that makes you believe that I am not seriously asking that question?

Why shouldn’t I be seriously asking that question?

Did you not realize that I was asking the question due to the point being made about nuclear weapons not stopping Argentina from trying to annex the Falkland Islands in 1982?
256

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 15:23:15
The bottom line here is when it comes to cuts would you prefer the NHS continuing and Trident being scrapped?

Or vice versa??

Or will we try and borrow even more, if we can find someone to borrow from??

Vote SNP for ALL the people of Scotland!!!!!!!
257

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 28/04/2009 15:23:59
263 RufusT-Firefly, Now, now Rufus! I might have to put you over my knee!

Best you stick to your Beano and Dandy.
258

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:25:09
Traquir

"Also seems rather funny that given you say you were going for brevity you gave a high precision number of 1.0198 then a supposed lower precision number of 1.12"

Thats because I cut and pasted (SOMETHING YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT) from the link you gave.

The lowest price for the year is given to 4 decimal places whilst the 'last trade' is only given to 2 decimal places. Anyone checking the link however would see that the 'prev close' is given to 4 decimal places.

Are you suggesting people do not check your Tinyurls?

You may have a point.
259

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:26:26
277 Hamish Longdirk,NZ 28/04/2009 15:23:59
263 RufusT-Firefly, Now, now Rufus! I might have to put you over my knee!

Best you stick to your Beano and Dandy.
====================================================

Explain to me again what your concept of the Eurozone is?

HAHAHA

Here is a tip, it is somewhere between The Twilight Zone
260

scully,

Colchester 28/04/2009 15:26:55


The moment the atom was split was the beginning of the end.It was to powerful a weapon for man to handle. you cant get rid of the waste.. I am neither for or against Nuclear Power.. I just know its a weapon man could have and should have done without.Its uncontrollable. But now we have it there's nothing to be done.

Its like Zoos. you capture an uncontrollable animal and it has to be caged.and once you have it you cant release it into the wild. it would have been better for it to have stayed where God put it.In the wild.

Faslane I've heard you have been having little leaks.Naughty. So you cant come on the Aircraft carrier. you cant fly the Buccaneer nor the Warthog, The Horses are out of your reach, and? I hope you can run faster than a whale can swim. If you don't know what I am talking about then I am safe. If you do. I will have to watch out.Its a lot more wonderful on the other side.And the world has to end sometime.Do not worry.If I worried about Nuclear Subs and Tridents I would not get out of bed in the morning..There is one very precious thing that no one gives a second thought to.. But it is your most precious possession.
261

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 15:27:37
(#248) – (RufusT-Firefly) – You don’t know a great deal about sales acumen do you?
262

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:28:26
and Boyzone.
263

argonaut,

east lothian 28/04/2009 15:29:18
a tactical system is still a deterrent- if an astute or similar armed with tactical nukes is in the persian gulf - the south china sea or the artic - it is still well capable of hitting targets - you know this and in the case of the persian gulf already proven ! you also know that a strategic weapon system can only ever be used against a soveriegn nation - and none of these potential enemies are in any alliance . currently in Nato - france - usa and the UK all have strategic nuclear missile systems - how many big sticks do we really need and its just plain daft putting the whole nuclear sub fleet in on place - madness
264

scully,

Colchester 28/04/2009 15:29:38


No It Is Not Your Life.
265

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 15:30:16
273 All Politicians are the same,


“Remind me how many jews the RN has gassed? You just made the comparison like a typical sick Nat.”

How many innocent civilians have been killed by the following:

A) The UK in illegal wars
B) The SNP in minority Government in Scotland?
266

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:30:23
281 Ewan Randall,28/04/2009 15:27:37
(#248) – (RufusT-Firefly) – You don’t know a great deal about sales acumen do you?
=====================================================

Maybe not.

I do know however what the Eurozone is and I also know how to make a percentage calculation.

Two things that the Nazt on here seem incapable of.
267

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 15:32:01
(#277) – (Hamish Longdirk) – Is this forum really the best place to air your fantasies?
268

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 28/04/2009 15:33:01
Oh and Rufus as regards to my post in 271, that was one Billion and more that the UK taxpayer had to shell out for that rigger contract.
I just thought that you would like to know that, since your obsessed with tax payers money getting wasted. On things like war, WMD's, Olympics blah blah...

Oh and don't forget Sandi Thoms breakfast!!
269

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 15:33:15
Ewan,

The fact we had nuclear bombs made no difference to Argentina as they knew we would never deploy them.

Why then ask if we should ban conventional weapons????

Stupid question in my book.

You can use a gun to shoot a duck and eat it.

Have you ever seen a duck killed by a cruise missile??

Wouldn't be a lot left would there???
270

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 15:34:28
121 tormud-the nuclear detterent did not stop the invasion of the Falklands!!

Thats not what they are for. Conventional wars employ conventional forces. Nuclear weapons are MAD-(mutually assured destruction/detterence) insurance amongst those countries that possess them to deter an attack and to protect against the Gadaffis and husseins of this world who would indulge in Nuclear blackmail if they were the only ones who had them!!

Only worldwide nuclear disarmament -everybody at once-will make it safe to dispose of them.
Does anyone think this will ever happen?
Would you like to take your chances against Gadaffi with no US Brit or french nukes?

I have posed these questions a few times and nobody has answered me yet.
Speaks volumes-if you are honest its a question to which there is no satisfactory answer. I would love a Nuclear free world-but how gentlemen,do we get there?
271

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 15:35:20
277 hamish-what about Topper?
272

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:35:30
285 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 28/04/2009 15:30:16
273 All Politicians are the same,


“Remind me how many jews the RN has gassed? You just made the comparison like a typical sick Nat.”

How many innocent civilians have been killed by the following:

A) The UK in illegal wars
B) The SNP in minority Government in Scotland?
==================================================

What a great comparison.

Bully Boy.

Who has scored the most goals?

A)The Braehead Shopping Centre
B)Doctor Who's Tardis?
273

,

28/04/2009 15:35:40
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274

scully,

Colchester 28/04/2009 15:35:46


A Strong Defence, Is A Strong Nation ,And A strong Nation Is A Peaceful Nation.So Gather Your Troops Daughter Of Troops.GOD HAS A DEFENCE SYSTEM SECOND TO NONE.HAVE YOU EVER TRIED GETTING IN THERE.
275

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 15:36:56
Hi rufus! Howyra doing?
276

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 15:41:27
Hi traquir!
277

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 28/04/2009 15:41:35
287, Steady on!

291, yeah forgot that one!

Rufus, is this the Eurozone you mean? I thought it was North of Whakatane, ( you pronounce the 'Wha' as 'fa', hee hee. I'm off to bed.

The eurozone (officially the euro area[1][2]) is a currency union of 16 European Union (EU) states which have adopted the euro as their sole legal tender. It currently consists of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain. Eight[3] other states are obliged to join the zone once they fulfil the strict entry criteria.

Depending on the exchange rates used, the eurozone's economy is either slightly larger or smaller than that of the United States, the largest national economy in the world.[4] The eurozone has a population of 326 million people and has a GDP (PPP) of 8.4 (14.6% of global GDP). Monetary policy of the zone is the responsibility of the European Central Bank, though there is no common representation, governance or fiscal policy for the currency union.

The term "eurozone" or "euro area" can also be taken informally to include third countries which have adopted the euro, for example Montenegro (see details on these countries below). Three European microstates – Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican – have concluded agreements with the European Union, permitting them to use the euro as their official currency and mint coins,[5] however they are neither formally part of the eurozone,[6][7] nor represented on the board of the European Central Bank.

278

Sgian Dubh,

28/04/2009 15:42:49
Quick Rufus, there's another related thread on the nuclear deterent that you haven't spouted any drivel on yet! Hurry Rufus, hurry!
279

andyned,

holland 28/04/2009 15:48:06
very good bit of film. If roofsRus seen this he would just think his london friends were very clever. av got a feeling he is english.
check this out http://tinyurl.com/leaks-faslane
280

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 15:48:34
Rufus


I really got bored (as I’m sure most did) with your mendacious attempts to explain your arithmetic schoolboy howler.

However, for the benefit of those equally as mathematically challenged as you are, here are the figures:

A=1.0198 B=1.12

B-A = 0.1002, shall we call that C for your benefit?

C/A = 0.09855

This equates to somewhat less than 10%.


By the way, what does Rufus/0 equate to ?
281

,

28/04/2009 15:49:09
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282

,

28/04/2009 15:50:32
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283

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:51:15
293 1 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 15:35:40
Well given it is less than 10% no I would no trust any figures you provide.
You then in retrospect then state you "rounded down to 1.12 for the sake of brevity" yet apparently did not need any brevity for 1.0198 :)
You sir have been caught red handed lying, have the common decency
to admit it.
=====================================================

Traquir, are you on drugs?

It is the only possible explanation for your ridiculous entry.

All my posts above still exist.

None have been deleted (as far as I am aware).

I am not going to start going through them line by line just to indulge you one of your sick fantasies

You provided the Euro/GBP website, not me.

The link clearly shows the current trend is upwards.

The link clearly shows a greater than 10% rise this year.

Bully Boy made a fool of himself by jumping in with both feet and showing his maths are worse than a 10 year old childs.

And you made a fool of yourself by saying Britain was in the Eurozone.

These are incontrovertible facts that anyone can read for themselves in the posts above.
284

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 15:52:29
(#286) – (RufusT-Firefly) – Which percentage calculation do you wish to do?

What about the number in a class completing a task, dividing that number by the total in that class, and then multiplying that number by a hundred?

What about calculating a percentage increase or decrease?

Is it not the case with this calculation that the percentage is calculated by taking away the lower figure be it the original amount or the decreased number away from the higher figure being either the original number or the increase, and then dividing by the original number and then multiplying this figure by a hundred?
285

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 15:52:50
Hi Geoff.

Not bad, how are you?
286

IainGlasgow,

28/04/2009 15:54:27
#261

Post-independence Scotland is still going to need a navy. Granted not anything like the size of the gargantuan RN but nevertheless most, if not all, of the fleet would probably be based at Faslane (rather than build another base) so it could even result in more jobs being created. Coastal protection vessels, minesweepers, small frigates, non-nuclear subs, etc all have to be maintained and operated and coatguard, fisheries/oilfield protection and customs & excise vessels could be incorporated into the navy. The only issue would be whether Faslane has the capacity. All these boats have to be built (and periodically replaced) as well and the work could be guaranteed to go to (conveniently nearby) Clyde shipyards. Even still it would probably cost less that Scotland's current proportionate share of UK defence spending.
287

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 15:59:15
305 Traquir-There are degrees of commitment to a cause. In reality the opinions on these forums range on a continuum from extreme Nat to extreme Unionist. I enjoy debating with all sides and dont mind the odd robust exchange. When it degenerates into a slanging match i tend to lose interest a bit altho if certain guys want to knock hell out of each other-whatever blows your hair! I'm sorry that my answer is a little rambling-what i think I am trying to say is that there are not only two sides here-not even a cutoff with lots of undecided in the middle.

Rushing off to walk the dogs before dark-will elaborate later but i leave you with thisAs a young student in the sixties my very best friend was (a then rare breed) Scottish Nationalist. It was never an impediment to our friendship!

remember-May 24th is Empire Day!!!
288

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:00:22
I know how you are Spookums.

I have seen your photo. Remember?

You look like Captain Caveman.
289

andyned,

holland 28/04/2009 16:02:10
how can anyone vote for a t!t that would eat his own baby and sell his own country. only a t!t like roofsRus
290

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:02:37
Jimmy Le Pie.

I have never seen you so happy!

This petition has changed your life.

What will you do when it gets consigned to the internet dustbin?
291

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 16:02:48
#312 Geoff

Maybe we could have "Britishness Day" on Empire Day???


Heaps of Butchers Aprons fluttering under posters of Our Dear Leader??
292

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 28/04/2009 16:07:11
This is all fascinating stuff, but I have to question where the same old posters scoring points against each other moves independence forward or back by a single inch. I'm pretty sure that the rest of Scotland isn't reading these columns with bated breath. Indeed, you might get more action if you band together in a Dance of the Pansies and throw out a challenge to Cornwall's Morris dancers, whereby a Scottish win would no doubt reduce Westminster to breathless panic. At this rate, any last stand is going to be gathered around the floral clock, with Rufus halfway up the Scott Monument, brandishing his favourite whip and screaming, "I know your names - you're all going to punished for this!"
293

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 16:07:19
Rufus,

It's the "Keep Our Dear Dumpling" petition that has caught my imagination!

But the big event just now is watching Comrade Broon self destruct - superb viewing, don't you think???
294

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:09:18
Jimmy, what is the link for that one?
295

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 16:10:15
316 RufusT-Firefly

Why are you not totally embarrassed by the fact that you have exposed as being totally innumerate, and where is your soul mate Smee, who has already been ditched by your erstwhile pal AM2?
296

Jimmy Le Pie,

28/04/2009 16:10:37
Rufus,

Just for you.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/support-the-PM/#detail
297

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:10:49
318 Spookums,28/04/2009 16:03:53
Anyway am i getting a birthday card from uncle Rufus..?
=====================================================

I will leave it under the windscreen wiper of the Tram for you just after midnight tonight.
298

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:12:01
322 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 28/04/2009 16:10:15
316 RufusT-Firefly

Why are you not totally embarrassed by the fact that you have exposed as being totally innumerate, and where is your soul mate Smee, who has already been ditched by your erstwhile pal AM2?
=======================================================

You sound 'hurt to the quick' as you would say.

No wonder. How embarrassing this has been for you.
299

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 16:13:46
Thanks Jimmy.
300

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 16:16:06
Rufus

9.855% short of a full shilling!
301

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 16:26:27



312Geoff


"remember-May 24th is Empire Day!!!"

Remember that the 1st of May is International Workers' Day.



302

,

28/04/2009 16:28:43
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303

,

28/04/2009 16:30:37
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304

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28/04/2009 16:34:35
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305

kendomacaroonbar,

Bairdsville, Argyll & Bute 28/04/2009 16:42:46
AJM,28/04/2009 14:01:01
This is good news for the local economy and as such should be welcomed. If there was ever any doubt that the mantra SNP the only party that puts Scotland first, was false it is over issues like this. SNP policy if it were able to enact it would bring about a decline in the area that would take decades to recover.

What utter Tosh.. Have you seen Helensburgh lately ? how is it possible that more and more local shops and pubs are closing down at an alarming rate when we currently have 'cash generator 'Faslane in operation. What additional revenue will be spent with the arrival of a few more subs that will encourage the 700 + local employees to support their town of residence above and beyond what they can afford today ? Let's dispell the myth that the base is the saviour of Helensburgh. The town and it's people are its own salvation.
306

ppink,

28/04/2009 16:44:54

shallow, simpering, nosepicking,juvenile,junior secondary, jackass, cliched, beardless, puerile, dozent, baheid, troll-lite.

=================================================






307

,

28/04/2009 16:49:42
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308

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 17:05:12
Geez-out walkin the dogs for five minutes and ma post bag is full!
OK 335 Traquir-did sort of answer you at 312 but more specifically I have to say what would you guys do without Rufus-you would be bored to tears! I dont have the time to read all the posts nor post the volume that you guys do but Rufus seems fine to me-and if you mean by"..having Rufus on your side" that is that he is a fellow Unionist then I have no prob with that at all! Too old to feel embarassed T
PS remember that premier league game in england when two guys on the same team got carded for fighting each other?
311 Spookums-Hi Spook how goes it son? Must admit the Spookums thing will take a bit of getting used to!
314 Spookums-you know what I mean you little tike-extreme ScotNat extreme BritNat!
317 Jimmy le Pie-howsit James.Now now Jim-enough of the butchers Apron stuff!
332ExpatNl-yes and i'll be celebrating with a few pints and a couple of verses of "We'll keep the Red Flag Flying now.."
309

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 17:07:26
bully wee alba

If you go to my blog (scottishunionist.com) and look in the right hand column, you will see that I happily link to sm753’s blog (nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com). His pieces are carefully researched and regularly blow the nationalists’ spin and dogma out of the water. I’m not sure why you would want to suggest that I think otherwise.

Now, I blogged a few days ago about the 11,000 jobs:
scottishunionist.com/2009/04/snp-demands-2000-more-job-losses.html

To summarise, Scottish Enterprise figures show about 7,000 people being employed at Faslane, and the base indirectly supports a further 4,000 full time equivalent jobs.

A recent review of Britain’s naval bases concluded that, if there was no strategic nuclear deterrent, there would be no need for Faslane to remain open.

So in that very real sense all 11,000 jobs depend on Trident.
310

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 17:15:22
I see the symptoms of Swine Flu are;

* Sweating

* Excessive Body Odour

* Laziness

So how will Traquir know if he has caught it?
311

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 17:26:22
'' Nuclear weapons have shown themselves to be completely useless as a deterrant to the threats and scale of violence we currently face or are likely to face, particularly international terrorism. Our independent deterrent has become virtually irrelevant, except in the context of domestic politics. ''

Former Head of the Armed forces Field Marshall Lord Bramall.

''We argue that it is conventional weapons we now need. Their pinpoint accuracy, their ability to help our forces in the sort of conflicts that are taking place is something which means you have to question the huge expense of Trident, which is limiting what we can do.''

''We don't own the missiles and it is absolutely unthinkable that we should ever consider using it or threatening to use it without having the clearance of the United States. The fact is that Trident is an inappropriate weapons system. You can't see Trident being used against something like nuclear blackmail by international terrorism. it is a cold war weapon. It is not a weapon for the situation where we are now.''

Retired army general Lord Ramsbotham.

£20 billion for 11,000 jobs (which is a huge exagerration, but leave that to the side) and a weapons system that is useless, whilst serving troops are being sent into combat without the right equipment ? You'd have to be nuts to think that's a good use of money.
312

ppink,

28/04/2009 17:31:05
Honestly it makes me sick that no only do we have to hold up the English Queen's currency with Scottish oil revenues, but we are being made a radioactive nuclear dump and target for any trigger happy fanatic as well.

Is their no limit to the gall of these impudent imperialists.

Free Scotland!
313

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28/04/2009 17:31:27
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314

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28/04/2009 17:33:34
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315

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 17:35:57
You better watch out spook you can get yourself banned for raising the issue of the Israeli government's actions. The Scotsman most certainly have a policy on that one.

I don't know why people persist in the myth that opposing the Israeli Govts actions makes you ant-Jewish. What about all the Jewish people, some in Israel, who oppose them too ?
316

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28/04/2009 17:39:39
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317

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28/04/2009 17:44:13
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318

TWC,

28/04/2009 17:44:17
ruf, smee and jimmie, the petition is 23,990
and counting, I'm sure that Trident is part of his problekm
319

kendomacaroonbar,

Bairdsville, 28/04/2009 17:44:20
The total population of Helensburgh is just under 15,000. go figure..
320

hoblar,

28/04/2009 17:44:21
There isn't 11,000 people working at faslane or in jobs that rely on the existence of Faslane.

The money saved by doing what the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT unanimously voted for; REJECTING Nuclear Weapons would be put to better use than killing men women and children of other countries in revenge for whatever their government may have done to upset America, who have their finger on the button.

It is WRONG to say there are 11,000 jobs connected to Faslane

It is WRONG to say that Scotland can afford to waste £20 Billion on trident.

IT is WRONG to say that Nuclear Weapons are supported by the Scottish Government

It is RIGHT to say that Nuclear Weapons have been UNANIMOUSLY REJECTED by the Scottish Parliament

As to the tuppence blogs hopefully promoted by the desperate labour trolls here;

Blogs have to be cool and happening;their social commentary if politically orientated has to be funny and promote a way of political thinking that is cool.....That certainly DOES NOT describe this New labour Government, dead on its feet and desperate as hell.

Nothing 'cool' about that, just read the three prolific troll comments, then disengage completely with them, they are making up a load of mince and their position is desperate.

The decision on these nuke subs hasn't been officially made, this is just pseudo news, with lies about jobs, trying to pre-empt the truth in June when the Scottish Government study into Faslane is released, with REAL figures about employment.

It is either 11,000 people as claimed by the fewer then ever troll unionist and their political pygmy New Labour politicians....OR it is about 1,000!

Come on, which figure is the truth, I have to say that I would strongly suspect the figure of 11,000 stated on the article and endorsed by labour, (unsurprising coming straight from a labour pamphlet) is very very suspect indeed.

321

ExpatNL,

glasgow 28/04/2009 17:44:59

#348 Observer,,


"£20 billion for 11,000 jobs (which is a huge exagerration, but leave that to the side) and a weapons system that is useless, whilst serving troops are being sent into combat without the right equipment ? You'd have to be nuts to think that's a good use of money."

Aye that works out at a hefty £ 1 818 181.82p per job, cheap at the price when there's an election coming up.

322

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 17:45:14
348 Observor-see my post at 290. the Lords Bramall and Ramsbotham clearly do not understand the issue. All the conventional weapons in the world are no defence against one submarines worth of Trident against a nuclear armed adversary.
Just bought a nice bottle of inexpensive SA wine -two oceans-merlotCab Sav blend for under two quid. Think I'll have a glass or two to clear the mind :)
323

Geoff,

28/04/2009 17:46:06
shud be OR against a nuclear armed adversary.
Need that Two oceans.
324

Geoff,

sa 28/04/2009 17:48:33
367 Spookums-I think the moderator should give a reason for the removal of a comment in the interests of evenhandedness and free speech.
You must have said something really nasty Spookums??
325

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 17:52:11
According to the STUC, the renewal of Trident will actually cost jobs as the money doesn't come out of the Defence budget, it comes out of general revenue. A report by Scottish CND and the STUC showed that replacing Trident will cost more jobs than it will provide. This report challenges the claims that 11,000 jobs would be lost if Trident were not replaced, they calculate the reduction in direct, indirect, and civilian employment would be less than 1,600, and that would take until 2022.

So bearing in mind that the generals say Trident is useless, the risks to employment are actually increased by renewing Trident rather than cancelling it, what exactly are the pro-Trident people arguing for ? To have a bigger stick than the next guy ?
326

,

28/04/2009 17:56:01
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Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 17:56:06
366 It isn't just two Generals you are falling over them spilling the beans on this subject, it seems a rite of passage as soon as they retire, and they all say the same thing: Trident is a cold war weapon, it's out-dated and not fit for purpose.
328

,

28/04/2009 17:56:58
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ppink,

28/04/2009 18:01:49
This feature is drivel, supposition, spin and unionist lies and propaganda. For Foulkes sake why don't they have an election and get themselves replaced by real unionist toffs who make no bones about 'keeping the natives down etc.

Just to reiterate or rather regurgitate the 'factual part of the Scotsman

======================================================
"Ministry of Defence documents SUGGEST that the seven Trafalgar class submarines currently based in Devon will be relocated to Faslane on the Gare Loch near Glasgow by 2015.

IF CONFIRMED, the move will be a massive boost for the 11,000 workers connected to HM Naval Base Clyde and will protect its future at a time when cuts are seeing many of the UK's defence facilities scaled back."
=======================================================

Free Scotland!
330

,

28/04/2009 18:05:01
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ppink,

28/04/2009 18:17:39
They are old dangerous tubs, by the time they are quote 'relocated to Faslane on the Gare Loch near Glasgow by 2015.' they will be the equivalent of the rotting Red Navy fleet in Murmansk.

Faslane is guaranteed billions of pounds of clean up money IF IT EVER HAPPENED which it will not because the Scots Government will not allow it.

Quoted from secret Defence papers; TOP SECRET
=====================================================
"The Trafalgar class have suffered from a number of technical difficulties. In 1998 Trenchant experienced a steam leak, forcing the crew to shut down the nuclear reactor. In 2000 cracks were discovered in the reactor cooling pipes of Tireless, forcing her to proceed to Gibraltar on diesel power. In August 2000 it was revealed that with Tireless still at Gibraltar, Torbay, Turbulent, Trenchant and Talent were at Devonport for refit or repair and with Trafalgar undergoing sea trials, only one boat - Triumph - was fully operational. By 2005 refits had reportedly corrected these problems.

In 2002 Trafalgar ran aground off Skye during Operation Cockfight.

A Trafalgar class submarine berthed at Southampton exploded showering the sailors in radioactive champagne.

In 2007, a small explosion aboard HMS Tireless resulted in the death of two sailors and injury of another. The accident took place while the submarine was submerged under the Arctic icecap during a joint British-American exercise. An oxygen candle in the forward section of the submarine was thought to be responsible for the accident.

Res ipsa loquitor matey me hearty Devonport plymouth Pompey bars etc etc

Free Scotland!
332

,

28/04/2009 18:24:00
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TWC,

28/04/2009 18:25:50
381 Col. Blimp­IV
Not my petition, I just want what's best for Scotland and that demands we get a General election.
I'm anti New Labour and I don't care if they never win in England as londg as we get proper policies for Scotland and that means we need to take away the vindictive head who has abandoned Scotland.
334

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 28/04/2009 18:28:58
It would be interesting to see what the people around Plymouth think of this? Devonport is a rather large employer in the Plymouth area.

Also if the boats were moving from Faslane to Plymouth; I wonder what the anti-Nuclear lobby would be saying?

As for a Trident replacement: I think it would be better spending the money on a further 6 T45s; some more Astute subs and several dozen more utility helos.
335

IainGlasgow,

28/04/2009 18:29:56
#356

Well said. By their same logic those of us who oppose the Labour Party here could be considered enemies of the state or traitors. Mind you that was probably a widely held view in Scotland in the 1980s.
336

,

28/04/2009 18:31:28
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scully,

Colchester 28/04/2009 18:35:32


#304

I thing I will be long gone by the time Armageddon comes to pass. But I will keep an eye out for you. How will I recognise you.will you be playing the pipes
338

Ewan Randall,

28/04/2009 18:35:51
(#289) – (Jimmy Le Pie) – Is it not the case that the Argentine military Junta had received reports that patrols guarding the Falkland Islands had been reduced, and as they believe the islands belong to them took the chance on taking the islands?

Isn’t it also more than likely that the Argentineans would have realized that the use of nuclear weapons over a set of islands thousands of miles away from mainland UK, rather than the mainland of the UK, might have been seen as over kill by the international community making it an unlikely option by the UK?

Is it not the fact that we also had conventional weapons too in 1982?

Did the UK’s conventional weapons put off the Argentineans from invading the Falkland Islands?

If you use the premise that nuclear weapons are useless and should be scrapped due to them not stopping Argentina from invading the Falkland Islands, then as we also had conventional weapons and they too didn’t stop Argentina from invading the Falkland Islands and must be classed in those terms as being useless should they not also be scrapped?

Are you expecting that if we are attacked that those doing the attacking are either ducks or duck hunters?
339

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 28/04/2009 18:40:43
People who are against our retention of the ultimate deterrent are simply stupid. Let's not waste breath on them.
340

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 28/04/2009 18:43:24
What`s everyone getting so worked up about ?

This is no more than an elaborate diversion aimed, firstly, at the employees, who may have become concerned that SEPA, not the SNP, would close the place down if they had the power and secondly, the locals, who voted Labour last time, but may be reconsidering their future choices in light of the Brown Government`s terminal ineptitude.

It really doesn`t matter.

It is extremely unlikely that the Tories will spirit this work away from an area that has voted strongly for them in the past.

So, despite the barely contained glee with which the above article reports on them, these documents, like a lot of Labour leaks and releases, aren`t fit to wipe your backside with.
341

hoblar,

28/04/2009 19:11:08
The daft headlines on this Scottish newspaper website provide more of a laugh than engaging with these types mate.

More to be pitied than scolded, or even directly responded to because he will hit that 'refresh button' for as long as you let him talk utter mince by responding.


Slainte
342

,

28/04/2009 19:11:26
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Brianwci,

28/04/2009 19:23:28
I hope Westminster does attempt something like this = more ammunition for the SNP, bearing in mind they are completely ignoring the entire Scottish parliament.

That may endear them to David Maddox, Rufus and co but not much to the People of Scotland.

London attempting to show Scotland whose boss is not the cleverest of tactics but they certainly suit the Nats right down to the ground.
344

,

28/04/2009 19:25:04
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,

28/04/2009 19:25:49
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Gtj,

28/04/2009 19:32:30
More Labour spin pissh from this mob I see.
347

ppink,

28/04/2009 19:45:29
Well I c that the Johnson Press share price fell by 4% to 12p this evening. Well done Dave! and Am2! YOU'RE A BUNCH OF LOSERS. But on line will save JP.
348

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 19:51:04
Muppets shouldn't call other people muppets.

http://www.stuc.org.uk/files/STUC%20CND%20Trident%20Report%202007/STUC-CND%20Trident%20Report.pdf

''Cancelling Trident the economic and employent consequences for Scotland''

Report commissioned by STUC and Scottish CND.

If you want to see some REAL mythbusting read this.

Trident will COST Scotland jobs, not save them.
349

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 19:55:13
Hint try reading the above link I gave you, it might stop you making such a fool of yourself.
350

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 19:56:31
#384 #398

How have you become so rigidly blinkered that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be lying?

In fact, we don't even disagree. We're counting different things. Your figures relate only to Trident, whereas mine are about the Faslane base in its entirety.

You would appear to be ignoring the fact that a recent review of Britain’s naval bases concluded that, if there was no strategic nuclear deterrent, there would be no need for the Clyde base to remain open.

All 11,000 jobs would therefore be lost, at least to Scotland.
351

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 19:57:44
406 Really ? The STUC are rather a large organisation Smee who represent rather a large number of people. But we are supposed to think they are dumb because you don't like their findings ?

11,000 jobs my bahookey. That's just made up.

Read the report and get back to me.
352

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:05:10
408 I think that's called blackmail. If you don't take our bombs then we'll take away the other ten thousand jobs connected with defence.

What a nice Government we have.
353

,

28/04/2009 20:06:11
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Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:08:57
413 I am not accusing the RN of lying. I am accusing you of being disingeneous.

Read the report.
355

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 20:18:16
Ha Traquir has deleted his signon and all his posts.

No wonder. Never has so much drivel been posted by one person in one day.

His handlers have obviously called him to account for embarrassing the SNP.

Cant blame them.
356

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:20:38
417 They are weapons of mass destruction.
357

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:21:57
''We can't, in all fairness, accuse him of being rude, anti-Semitic, or any of the other things.''

Is this an admission you have a list of ridiculous smears to make about nationalists then ?
358

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 20:23:09
Observer, I am sure it was you that said that you could not understand anyone deleting all their posts.

Does that mean you cannot understand your hero Traquir?
359

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:25:46
421 No I said I could understand why someone would delete all their posts. I don't personally favour re-posting things out of context or generally stalking other posters. So I could understand someone deleting their old posts if that happened to them.

However I doubt if Traquir has done it.
360

Eve,

Scotland 28/04/2009 20:30:09
#179 Bejjy: Sorry your comment is incredibly texted dense and difficult to read.

Judging by theunionmustgo reply, I'll think I'll save the trees and not print it out.

----------------------------------------------------------

Oh dear have the Scotsman changed their font on the comment section or am I just really stressed?

361

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 20:31:50
sm753 yes it is quite incredible. He carpet bombs the forum all night and all day with a barrage of boring nonsense and then if deletes it all.

Unless someone at the Scotsman did it as it was probably very embarrassing for them to have his drivel on their website .
362

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 20:33:52
#412

Re: “This will be my last post, I will never post here again”

I have reported your vicious smear to the moderator. The part about the car doesn't bother me as you very obviously made that up, but I would hate for anyone to think that your concocted quote — complete with a comma where a moderately switched on six year old would know to put a full stop — was in fact mine.
363

Eve,

Scotland 28/04/2009 20:39:12
#207 nova albion: It's not good to be pestsimistic about others.

Secondly, who ever wants to go backwards, when going forwards is easier and can have a positive effect on the peoples well being.

364

smokey joe 1,

28/04/2009 20:40:39
At the end of the day the British establishment are riding rough shod over the wishes of the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament on this issue.
Labour puppets like foul mouthed Jackie Baillie will pay for their arrogance, bullying and lies at the ballot box.
Labour are corrupt.
365

hoblar,

28/04/2009 20:41:31
All very boring, the lives of forum spoilers who talk through their collective buttocks, man, going on about cars and commas.

Wow! isn't there enough room for commentary on their naff blogs that they boast about to keep these new labour failures happy?

Back to the article:

I believe that the imaginary figure of 11,000 people working at Faslane (directly or indirectly) should be radically changed back to a figure that reflects reality, probably around 1000 people.

Then we should offset the benefits of cancelling the nuclear blight of trident against what we could actually spend the multi Billions saved on!

Easy as that, a Scottish solution, based on what most Scots think about housing and paying for dangerous death dealing nukes, and a stance reflected by a majority within the Scottish parliament.



366

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28/04/2009 20:45:08
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 20:45:21
#427 smokey joe

The Scottish people, when last polled, supported the retention of our nuclear deterrent. Even a small majority of SNP supporters agreed with the statement that “Britain should continue to have nuclear weapons”.
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awantapassport,

sunnysoothcoast 28/04/2009 20:48:19
#422 Hi Observer with two commas. You're wasting your breath with Smee. I've been reading this thread all day at work. You talk sense. Ignore his blinkers.
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 20:49:27
#428 hoblar

“Forum spoilers”: that would be people who don't agree with you, wouldn't it?

A rather fascistic notion, some might say.
370

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:49:45
420 Polls overall show that the Scots do not support the renewal of Trident. The majority of Scottish MP's and MSP's have voted to oppose it. That gives the Scottish Government a mandate.

All the faith groups as well as the STUC oppose renewing Trident. That is a broad and significant spectrum of Scottish society.
371

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 28/04/2009 20:49:54
Observer, calm doon hen.

I should be the last person to remind you of the pointlessness of feeding the payroll trolls with any attempt at reasoned debate.

Let them howl at the moon.

It won`t make a blind bit of difference what they, or any of Labour`s confused and fatigued ranks say or do anymore.

They`re finished.

If you keep this up I`ll have to conclude that you`re enjoying this too much.
372

smokey joe 1,

United Kingdom 28/04/2009 20:50:48
430.
Really ,I was never asked and and I dont know anyone else who took part in this fictitious poll.
373

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:55:08
431 Hello, how's things in Brighton. Smee is a bit too enamoured of the Royal Navy for comfort if you ask me :)

374

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 20:55:18
#433 Observer

I'm not entirely convinced myself by the replacement argument. But that's not what we're talking about here. The 7,000 jobs at Faslane and the 4,000 full-time equivalent off-site which depend upon it exist only because the base remains open, which is the case only because of Trident - our existing deterrent, which the majority of the Scottish public support. Those are the demonstrable facts. Reject them if you will.

Later...
375

AM2,

Scotland,UK 28/04/2009 20:57:13
#435 smokey joe

Fictitious poll?! ICM/BBC, April 2007.

Con 68% / 32%
Lab 53% / 43%
Nat 51% / 47%
Lib 43% / 55%

These are agree/disagree figures for the question “Do you agree or disagree that Britain should continue to have nuclear weapons?”

Bye for now.
376

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 20:57:42
434 OK I'll calm down. This is a subject close to my heart my mum was protesting against these things in the fifties when she was at at school ! I suppose I do bang on a bit.
377

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 21:00:44
437 If you are not convinced then read the STUC report that I provided the link to with an open mind. There is a lot of food for thought in there. Cancelling Trident could benefit the Scottish economy - especially now.
378

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28/04/2009 21:07:13
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,

28/04/2009 21:09:52
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awantapassport,

sunnysoothcoast 28/04/2009 21:11:09
440 Things are braw down here... gettin' warmer. How's Glasgow? You should bang on just as yer Maw did in the 50s, it's the same problem.
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smokey joe 1,

28/04/2009 21:22:53
438
Even if this dodgy poll is correct people change their minds from things that were happening two years ago.
Blunket now wants to scrap Nu Labours ID card scam .
ICM/BBC? SAYS IT ALL REALLY.
382

,

28/04/2009 21:24:14
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Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 21:26:12
443 It's mainly been raining. Aye I will keep banging on.

444 The number of potential job openings at risk , civilian, military, direct, indirect and induced, from Trident cancellation in 2022-2027 is estimated at 2,191. The number of civilian jobs is 1,891. The military jobs could be re-absorbed in conventional re-deployment. The civilian jobs could be absorbed into the existing public sector using the savings from the cancellation of the Trident programme which is funded from general revenue.

It's entirely do-able.
384

Observer,,

Glasgow 28/04/2009 21:28:49
446 Well just google STUC cancelling Trident. I should probably have suggested that in the first place instead of all that %-pdf etc rubbish.
385

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28/04/2009 21:33:53
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smokey joe 1,

28/04/2009 21:53:08
453
sm753
No one cares about your silly wee unionist links.
Fish glow in the gairloch barrel.
Because of the london's obsession with the big bang.
387

TWC,

28/04/2009 21:56:33
Put trident against Labour in the Eruo elections that should remove them from the race
388

Conan the Librarian™,

28/04/2009 22:01:20
In 1993 the Tories shut down the submarine specialized dockyard at Rosyth, giving work to Devonport.

In 2009 Labour propose shutting down Devonport giving work to Faslane.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
389

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:02:38
452 2 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 21:33:53
445 sm753,

"441

"You would indeed be correct I have never deleted any of my own posts :) "
==================================================

Maybe technically true.

However you deleted your account, the byproduct of this being that all your posts got purged.

I don't blame you. You were obviously high on drugs or drunk today when you made them.
390

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:05:09
I noticed Alex Neil on the Scottish News digging a hole for a new house.

How the mighty have fallen.

It was only 6 months ago that he was saving all the Scottish banks!
391

PointOf View,

Bonny Bonny Sub free Scotland. At least after 2010 28/04/2009 22:07:20
Ruf -ass
Tell you what Ruff -ass. Why dont you buy a Loch and you can park all the subs in there,,,, and charge the MOD for the pleasure! Hey you can use some of your your savings from Broons 2p vat cut! You know, the money you bought your 8 Plasma TV's and 20 HD DVD players and your three new cars from and and and, yes Ruff -ass that money!;-) So you're still listeneing to the voices then?
392

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 28/04/2009 22:12:44
TRIDENT-IN SCOTLAND.
WE DONT NEED IT
WE DONT WANT IT
LET ENGLAND HAVE IT,AS A GIFT FROM BONNIE SCOTLAND.
WE HAVE MORE JOBS COMING SOON,THATS A PROMISE!
JUST WAIT A LITTLE LONGER TO FIND OUT MORE.
NEW FLASH!
THE TORY PARTY MOVE FURTHER AWAY FROM LABOUR IN LONDON BY OVER 19 POINTS.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
393

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:16:50
Spook, your blog is getting worse.

Why not double the time you spend on it from 5 minutes a week to 10 minutes a week?

It would make a big difference.
394

,

28/04/2009 22:17:39
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:18:28
470 Spookums,28/04/2009 22:16:48
Hey Rufus..

Wud ye like tae pop in fer a cuppa as were near neebors ?
======================================================

I would rather go on a 2 week holiday to Mexico with no face mask.

396

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:21:10
472 2 Traquir,Alba 28/04/2009 22:17:39
Now we have established that I did not and could
not delete my account and I did not delete my posts,
I wonder why they all just vanished yet again ?
======================================================
NONSENSE.

We have established one thing and that is you deleted your account

As you well know.
397

Ananurhing,

28/04/2009 22:21:15
#449 danielrober
"'ve have always attempted enjoy the company of those who put the effort in. Hence my interest in reading papers written by journalists"

Me too! So why do we come to the Hootsman! We have to make do with black ops attack hacks like Maddog, and Hambo!
In Hambo's analysis of the same story in this paper, he's nearly giving himself a hernia practically air punching and gushing with gleeful verbiage such as,

"But now the UK government has responded in resounding and dramatic style"

"The base at Faslane is going nowhere."

" It will base its entire submarine fleet on the Clyde, regardless of anything the SNP or anybody else says about it,"

"This decision also represents a wielding of power by an administration which has it, with the Scottish Government powerless"


Shameful and disgraceful verbalism!
If this goes ahead, against the democratic will of the Scottish people and parliament, there'll be hell to pay. A coallition from all Scottish parties, including Labour's anti nuke left, would make Greenham Common look like a WRI picnic!

Could be a gelling moment for the nation. Bring it on!
398

Conan the Librarian™,

28/04/2009 22:22:37
473
You can't be *that* ugly Rufus.
399

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:24:35
Traquir, next you will be telling me that Sir Fred Goodwin employed a member of staff whose sole job was to ensure cash machines at the bank's headquarters only dispensed notes bearing his name.
400

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:25:51
478 Conan the Librarian™,28/04/2009 22:22:37
473
You can't be *that* ugly Rufus.
===================================================

Susan Boyle even knocked me back.
401

RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:27:30
Spook and Bird of Prey.

https://secure.seabreeze.com.au/Gallery/gallery/Other/2049991.jpg
402

,

28/04/2009 22:29:46
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RufusT-Firefly,

28/04/2009 22:31:31
Spook

Your David Maddox article on your blog is an absolute disgrace.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Children could read that.

Your mum and dad must be very proud of you.
404

Conan the Librarian™,

28/04/2009 22:36:57
482
Of course she did Rufus...a world famous superstar and you asked her out?
She prefers broon sauce on her sausage suppers by the way.
405

,

28/04/2009 22:37:20
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arc of insolvency,

28/04/2009 22:46:16
Usual SNP rubbish I see too tired to read the same dribble again and again.....Spookums happy birthday all the same.

P.S 2 Traquir most people don't speak Gaelic so not really much point trying to communicate with others is there?
407

karin.m,

28/04/2009 22:56:45
link to incidence of cancer in UK look at the gare loch and west coast of scotland area........

http://publications.cancerresearchuk.org/WebRoot/crukstoredb/CRUK_PDFs/CSATL05.pdf
408

Marga,

Edinburgh 28/04/2009 23:25:47
Changing the subject, surprising article in today's times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6188874.ece

Holyrood's tax revolution

If adopted by the Commission, chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman, the idea would spell the end of the Barnett Formula

Radical plans to give the Scottish government control of up to half of the income tax raised north of the Border and most of the revenue from North Sea oil and gas are being considered by economists advising the Calman Commission.

.. the ideas result from consulting overseas experts on devolved financial systems.
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28/04/2009 23:35:27
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PointOf View,

28/04/2009 23:40:28
506 Marga,
Hi Marga. Interesting read. However, why would we accept half, when we will have it all! After the next election that is and something tells me that could be sooner rather than later.. Independence here we come!
411

Marga,

Edinburgh 29/04/2009 00:08:26
PointOfView:

I've just read:

"It also has the advantage of being relatively cheap to implement and run, as not much needs to be done to make it work through the existing system operated by HM Revenue and Customs."

And this was the government who refused to allow HM Revenue and Customs to collect local income tax?

And what a way to run a country - is this a joke?

"That means that in 2008-09, the Scottish government would have received about £10.7 billion, or 32 per cent of its budget for that year. But in 2009-10, the oil revenues would have fallen to £5.7 billion, or only 16.5 per cent of its budget. That is £5 billion of tax revenues that would have disappeared between one year and the next. It is a massive shortfall, but it is reasonable to assume that a prudent Scottish government would have stored away at least some of the money from the boom year. "

Read on, it's mindboggling ...
412

Brianwci,

29/04/2009 00:37:47
Did you know that not only is/was the UK best placed to weather the current recession.....NOT, it turns out it's also best placed to combat Swine Flu.

Unfortunately the source for this latest piece of good news is the same source who confused the UK being best placed with worst placed to see out the recession.

Though in fact we seem better placed re the flu than we are re the recession.....but not on top of it by any means....enjoy the summer, winter might be nothing or it could be hell on earth.

Get your face masks ready and...well, we'll all be told nearer the time.
413

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 29/04/2009 04:03:50
Usual Unionist rubbish,

I see Tory boy AM is back with his drivel.

The following was a post he wrote a while back spewing on about the benefits of the Union. I replied to then as you can see.

AM:
Fine. I'll start. Some benefits of the Union:

AM• Completely free market between the nations of the United Kingdom

Me: Do you really mean that England will stop trading with us because Scotland goes it’s own way? Of course not, don't be stupid!

AM• Economic cooperation rather than competition between UK nations

Me: Scotland already has an disadvantage, because it’s shackled to England, and is not allowed to run it’s own economy.
Remember “unemployment in the North of Britain (Scotland) is worth it as long as the rest as the rest of the UK can enjoy low inflation” said the governor of the Bank of England.

AM• Competitive advantages in being part the World’s 5th largest economy

Me:You mean as long as England takes the Lions share of our resources, it’s all right

AM• Fiscal flexibility: flows of treasury resources; shared risk and revenues
Me: Flow of Scotland’s resources to England, with crumbs back, and Scotland is supposed to be gratefully for this?

AM• Economies of scale: shared defense, embassies, trade missions etc

Me: You mean rigged MOD contracts going to England so to save English jobs and the seat of some scumbag Tory. Remember Roysth and Devenport in 91?

AM• Inward investment: UK attracts more than any other European country

Me: But Scotland is not allowed to even set it’s own corporate tax rates, and as a result is at a disadvantage to London.

AM• Stability: part of diversified economy not overly dependent on oil & gas

Me: Scotland has many other resources that can keep it afloat. England has Scotland to keep it up!

AM• Lower taxes than Nordic countries. Better services than Ireland

Me: I’ve been to Norway many times, they have it sown up, Scotland is poor, and we’re supposed to feel gratefully becaus
414

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 29/04/2009 04:04:55
2 cont

AM• Lower taxes than Nordic countries. Better services than Ireland

Me: I’ve been to Norway many times, they have it sown up, Scotland is poor, and we’re supposed to feel gratefully because we’re part of this Union

AM• Britain is an inspiring example of how nations can work together

Me: As long as the UK can rely on the Scots to turn up and die at war, that’s cool. Reminds me of the time Westminster betrayed the Scots at Dunkirk, and things have not really improved since.

AM• Shared achievement: writers, poets, composers, inventors, engineers
Me: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!

AM• Shared history: Industrial Revolution, Trafalgar, World Wars I & II etc
Me: See above

AM• A shared culture that acknowledges and celebrates distinctive elements

Me: With the inner London regeneration project, better known as the Olympics’ taking 184 million (the last time I read) Scotland’s culturally funding is missing out BIG time!

AM • Scots can settle anywhere in the UK without being “abroad”

Me: Unless you live in England, where your looked upon as a second citizen.

AM• Other Britons can live in Scotland as easily as moving to the next town

Me: We can do that already in Europe.

AM• Huge influence in the EU due to our population and economic clout

Me: Pure and utter garbage, For instance, Scotland’s fishing ministers are not even allowed to sit in the debating chambers, whilst Scottish fishing rights is sold down the river. Thank you for nothing Mr Heath!

AM• Britain has the muscle to be a strong force for good internationally

Me: Like many other countries that have small populations, Scotland on it’s own, can be just as affective as part of NATO and other organizations
The good thing about independence is we won’t send 100 Billion on Trident, AND we will make our own foreign policy, and therefore won’t be dragged into illegal wars against the wishes of the Scottish people

AM• Continued membership of NATO and the G8 – playi
415

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 29/04/2009 04:05:52
3 cont

AM• Continued membership of NATO and the G8 – playing our part globally.

Me: What are you saying that NATO will kick us out because we’re independent? Why don’t you ask Helen Clarke, about what small independent countries can do?
As usual more tripe from yourself AM.

And also AM, Brown is only pushing his Pro British views, so he can try and be viewed to English voters as less Scottish. Remember they don’t want a “Jock’ PM!

Are into S & m, because you seem to love getting humiliated with your infantile ranting?
416

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 29/04/2009 04:09:54
Sorry it's a bit out of date but you get my drift.
417

gus1940,

Edinburgh 29/04/2009 08:18:45
Would somebody please go to Faslane and spend a few days counting the number of civilians entering the base each day.

Averaging the figures should give a fair estimate of the number of civilians employed at the base and settle the arguments above once and for all.

Of course there is always the chance that any poor unfortunate doing this may fall foul of our Labour Police State and its Abti-Terrorism laws.
418

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose on Holiday 29/04/2009 09:20:40
We are going to get a sh*t load of rent for Faslane off Titanic UK after Independence. Well if they can afford to pay it that is.

Just been in Sweden: saw no swathes of shut shops in the high streets. How come?
419

George Coutts,

Iceland 29/04/2009 19:18:29
Just perfect, more fuel to help Scotland to gain Independence, yes free and oh yes NUCLIAR FREE.
Because when it finally regains full control, all the Nucliar Missiles, subs and ofcourse Doomsday oops sorry I meant :Dounray: will be marched out Double Quick.
Ask Gordon and Alistair my Darlings what and where will the put all that nasty Nucliar Trash?
Freedom is sweet but for south of the border life will suck something awful. Roll on 2010, Yahoo!!!!!
420

Russell M,

Stirling 30/04/2009 14:22:37
We don't need no stinking nukes!

Reconstitute the Highland Regiments in Scotland, under Scottish command.
Teach and promote marksmanship à la Switzerland.

Kaiser Wilhelm made a state visit Switzerland shortly before the Great War. After reviewing an honour guard of Swiss soldiers he stopped to compliment their Sergeant-Major on the men's soldierly appearance. Half-jokingly he asked the old sergeant what would little Switzerland do if the Imperial German army invaded them with a force twice as strong. The grey-haired Sergeant thought for a moment before answering: "Then Your Excellency, we would all have to fire our rifles twice!"

Never again should we live in fear of our 10X neighbour or any other bully for that matter.
421

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 30/04/2009 18:53:57
I am very surprised that part from a few worthless cleaning jobs (as all other post holders are shipped in) or the phony claim of defence of another nation, some people are able to express glee at democracy being trampled into the gutter by diktat from the USA? Perhaps someday we will get something close to an answer from Nuke cheerleaders as why they think the ability to wipe out a thousand nations is a reason to be happy. For now the majority of Scots can see that these Nuke supporters are plainly very sad individuals.

 

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