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The Celtic Lion and Celtic Tiger are two quite different beasts



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Published Date: 15 February 2008
Irish economic policy may look attractive but Alex Salmond must be aware of the differences
WHAT is the way forward for Scotland? What should be our inspiration? And what examples should we follow? First Minister Alex Salmond is in no doubt: Ireland. Though we have heard his endorsement of the "Celtic Tiger" many times before, what made his
speech this week in Dublin so singular and defining was its wholehearted embrace of Ireland's political culture, institutions and social partnership.

In his unqualified praise for all things Irish, here was the sharpest reminder that he is not some disinterested first minister holding together a minority administration in a non-Labour coalition, but a Nationalist whose world view is profoundly and fundamentally at odds with the partnership and the institutions we already have.

"I have come to Dublin", he declared, "to set our aspirations for Scotland's future… Our aspirations are no different from those that inspired generations of Irish people to independence and prosperity that you enjoy today."

Mr Salmond said the Scottish Government was "engaging a broad coalition of all the major institutions in Scottish society" which now "have a vital role to play in shaping the next steps of the national conversation actively contributing to the debate on the future of Scotland."

In heaping praise on Ireland's outstanding performance, Mr Salmond said the partnership that created it was not simply about economics. But the main achievements he hailed were economic. So how exportable is this Irish model to Scotland? And would it work in the way he believes it would?

Ireland's success over the past 20 years has certainly been outstanding, all the more so when you consider its traumatic post- independence history that the First Minister did not get around to mentioning: the civil war and the Troubles, and a long period of economic stagnation in the 1960s and 1970s.

Indeed, Ireland's "miracle" did not come about through independence per se, but in the wake of an extreme policy collapse. This led in 1987 to the adoption of a National Economic Plan whose first sentence made reference to "the grave state of our economic and social life".

Since then, Ireland's blistering growth has had the dynamics of catch-up, and it is not at all clear whether this would be applicable to a mature, more urbanised, post-industrial economy such as Scotland's.

Central to the process of catch-up was the slashing of corporation tax, now down to a little over 12 per cent, and low inheritance tax. These have been huge contributors in encouraging people to move to Ireland. But one of the results has been an economy even more heavily dependent on property than our own. This market has now turned down sharply. House prices have been falling for months. With some 13 per cent of the workforce dependent on the building and construction sectors against 7 per cent across the EU, some 100,000 jobs in Ireland could now be at risk.

And with the property bust, Ireland's economy is slowing from around 6 per cent growth in 2006 to a projected 2 per cent this year.

Loose planning rules have also been a notable feature of the Irish model, feeding the building boom. This is in marked contrast to attitudes in Scotland. The planning regime is much stricter. And there are prominent institutions which, together with community councils and environmental lobby groups, vigorously challenge many developments that would enhance growth.

Planning restrictions were a major concern of last week's meeting of the Council of Economic Advisers. It wants to see a more flexible system. But the imperative of higher growth is under challenge. Attitudes today have shifted from those of the 1980s. Many Irish infrastructure projects are also financed by private finance initiatives of the type Mr Salmond has rejected. So building an Irish-style low-tax, high-growth consensus may be more difficult than Mr Salmond admits.

However, in two key areas the Irish model does bear examination. One is the emphasis on education and training, which helped create the workforce servicing hi-tech sectors such as IT and pharmaceuticals. The other is demographics. Ireland has been astonishingly successful in reversing its population decline and attracting young people. In a new book on the Irish economy, The Best is Yet to Come, economist Marc Coleman cites the country's potential to draw in labour and capital for decades, providing confidence to see the economy through the present downturn. The population passed four million in 2006 and is forecast to hit five million by 2019. While this, he says, will not save the economy from a temporary correction of its overheated property market, "it promises fantastic potential" in later years.

So, the "Celtic Tiger" is not as replicable as it looks and the consensus for recreating it here not as strong. But it does have lessons, particularly on tax, that would be foolish to ignore. More challenging for the First Minister's opponents is the task of breathing aspiration and inspiration into the fading dynamic of "Britishness" that has become so porous and uncertain of its core values as to resemble an intensifying nervous breakdown. While Mr Salmond may have an uphill struggle with his choice of alternative model, his critics face a path no less steep.





The full article contains 891 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

The Chattering Nationalists Forum Moderator,

15/02/2008 00:21:49
Has anyone seen Janis?
2

BMeister,

15/02/2008 00:32:19
Joplin?
3

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 15/02/2008 00:48:47
#3 What you mean clinically delusional? Are you qualified to diagnose such a thing?
4

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

15/02/2008 00:55:11
#3 AM2 YAWN

I am sitting in my nest and have just read your post.
NOW i says. I have fluttered down to my local halfmoon 24 hour shop in nearby corpach to buy today's Daily Record. It may be pure tripe but it's heaven and earth compared to your tyrannical posts.
5

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 00:55:49
#5 From BJ's own logic it would seem that 'mimicking' Ireland is Indeed an option. If you say we can't be like Ireland because they have lower taxes and less planning restrictions, then the answer is, if we want to be like Ireland then we lower our taxes and loosen our planning restrictions!
6

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 00:56:38
3
We do not have to mimic the Irish Economy.

We have a very good one of our own.
7

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

15/02/2008 00:57:06
#6..hrmm hrmm..think your post was for that thing at post #3....
8

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:02:25
#8 er- yeah, it was!
9

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:03:59
6
The Irish are prospering without many of our advantages;Power generation(exporter, most of the time)Whisky, they have a large export market(we have a huge one).
Oh. And Oil.Lots and lots of oil.
10

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:04:55
There's no mystery about how to improve the economy. You keep taxes low, you loosen red tape and other barriers to entry to the market,and you develop a good education system tuned to produce people with useful skills.
Dump all this garbage about 'social justice' and other synonyms for socialist failure polices.
11

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:09:49
9
Eh?
12

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:10:55
14
Thought so, night AM2
13

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:11:15
#13 Ok, AMD, The Scottish government creates a perfect plan for improving Scotland's economy.The parliament agrees with it, the whole country likes it.
We go petitioning to Westminster. They say 'no'.

If you let other people make decisions for you they will usually be the wrong ones.
14

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:13:06
15
I am very familiar with the drinks industry fakey.

And you are talking balls of course.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:17:52
As in freezing them off?
16

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:21:10
#23 That's a platitude Am2, nothing more.
17

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:29:00
Ach.I was hoping for a good meaty argument with the real AM2.

Here is phone number for you fakey.

08457 90 90 90
18

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:33:43
#26 All things that don't apply to Ireland.

I have to laugh at you bringing the monarchy into it. As if Scotland is some pygmy tribe in the middle of the jungle who are pathetically grateful whenever the great white God comes down to visit them.
19

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:38:37
#30
Lol! I see you have a sense of humour Am2. That's good, but you're still making my point for me!
20

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:42:03
Maybe.But I wouldn't countenance the counterfeit of either.
Count.
21

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:43:58
31
Richardinho

A fake I'm afraid.
22

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 01:47:52
good copy. Has the same attitudes and everything.
23

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:52:36
34
And you, of course, are very familiar with fraudulent fabrications.

F****r.
24

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:53:58
36
Tofu to you.
25

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:59:21
A collective noun.

An annoyance of Ayrshires.
26

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:03:12
That would be Conan the Vegetarian™.
Heh.

But no I am very carnivorous.Especially when I scent Unionist blood...
27

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:10:41
Well, I've enjoyed our wee spat fakey.Just wish you could get names of your own.It isn't THAT hard.
Ooh-er missus.
Mind that phone number when it gets too much.
28

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:13:26
45
Rattled?
True colours?
Is it time for your pill?

See post 46
29

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:18:46
48
Ok...how many pills have you missed?

For a split second there I thought you a Zelazny fan.

But then I remembered.
30

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:21:14
I'm quite sure it will be.Thats your pattern isn't it?

Of course you could always come up with something original...?

Nah.
31

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:23:19
Heh. Lena Hyena, now THATS a moniker.
32

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:26:50
53
That you are being deliberately antagonistic.
33

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 02:29:24
This time goodnight...Lena
34

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/02/2008 02:40:49
#59

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

To Imitate someone is to pay the person a genuine compiment - often an unintended compiment
35

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/02/2008 02:43:11
#60 Compliment
36

,

15/02/2008 03:41:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

15/02/2008 05:13:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Royster,

15/02/2008 05:14:33
So MacAlba and Scot of Australian Ancestry are one and the same. Over-use of the word 'acuity' has given you away.
39

Royster,

15/02/2008 05:27:44
Actually, I think it's 'Australian of Scottish ancestry'. The Home Office has probably turned down his work visa application and he bears a grudge against the UK.
40

James,

Dundee 15/02/2008 05:31:00
Scotland and Ireland are not the same.

But we can still learn lessons.

If Scotland pulls together we can surely succeed - we have the people and we have the resources.

We just need the opportunity.

BTW AM2 - RIP and McGuinness are coming over to 'have a word' with you next week. Something regarding 'Ulster Fry'.
41

,

15/02/2008 06:09:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

,

15/02/2008 06:09:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

,

15/02/2008 06:22:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

,

15/02/2008 06:37:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 08:15:57
Quote "post-industrial economy such as Scotland's."
We certainly are in this category at the moment and will remain there until the Scottish government has the power to do what it wants to get us back into industry.
46

FM in Dundee,

15/02/2008 09:15:21
Hi AM2

"I'm with you on loosening planning rules, but that wouldn't require breaking up Britain!"

No-one is talking about breaking up Britain! Reversing 410 million years of geological process is quite impossible as well as completely undesirable :D What is important is that we forge a new equitable relationship between the nations of Britain and Ireland fit for the 21st century. A relationship which allows us to maintain our social union as well as enjoying the many dividends of political independence and direct membership of the international community. A model for such co-operation already exists in the form of the Nordic Council.

No-one can deny that Scotland has massive economic potential. However, to fully achieve that potential we must have the full, normal control over our economy afforded to independent nations. Only then will we have the opportunity to match and emulate the successes of our Scandinavian and Irish counterparts.
47

Alan B,

15/02/2008 09:41:45
#3 AM2 i have never read such rubbish and desperation in a post.

"comparing net national income after adjusting GDP by subtracting depreciation and income payments abroad per head – a decent gauge of the living standards – Ireland probably ranks below the UK."
The reason u are trying to find a statistic that makes our performance look better is because the gdp per capita the most usual way of comparing the economies of differing countries shows ireland ireland not just ahead of scotland but alos the uk as a whole. U r also continually reminded by the gdp per capita figures that the small nothern european countries are some of the richest in the world.

It is also interesting that u compare ireland to the uk rather than scotland. Which shows that u are trying to muddy the waters and distract from the issue being discussed. So based on net national income where does scotland compare to ireland.

The thing u do not seem to comprehend when discussing ireland is that no one is saying it does not have issues, noone is saying it is perfect, every country does. what people are saying is that it has performed better than scotland. why we have been in the doldrums scraping growth less that 2% over the last 30yrs they have been labled an economic miracle, a celtic tiger.

"An Irish Times article last year, entitled “Ireland not a good example for others”" that really is desperate. It needs context, does the journalist support the government or opposition. U will always find articles in newspapers critically assessing their own countries performance. Does the article also say ireland should apply to join the uk. does it say that scotland is a good model. It is abit like quoting the scotmans saying the staying the the uk would for scotland.

48

Alan B,

15/02/2008 09:44:06
#3 AM2

"There are many possible ways to further boost Scotland’s economy, but mimicking Ireland isn't an option." Like the way u advocated scotland lowering corporation taxes to reach ireland economic performane then backtracked as u decided it was not exactly a good strategy to convince us that the uk was beneficial to scotland.

The best u can come up with is some in brussels might not like lower corporation tax. The fact is if lowever corporation tax is good for scotland we should try it.
The idea that others may not like it so we should not do it silly to say the least.
49

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 09:51:08
#73 Jackie Priest: that’s right! Time for the Nat spin trick, is it? For the uninitiated, I shall explain what the Nat spin trick is.

Independence is extremely controversial, so the Nats have taken to soft peddling, ie the trick is not to refer directly to the many far reaching consequences but to compare Scotland to European countries. Ireland is invariably used for this purpose, as are the Scandinavian countries. Of course, the Nat spin trick is entirely bogus because it doesn’t take the Brain of Britain to work out that countries such as Norway and Sweden are very different to Scotland because their economy isn’t as inextricably linked to a wider market, in the way that Scotland’s is to the rest of the UK. Enough of the Nat spin machine already: it’s just pathetic!
50

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 09:51:17
#73

Correct Jackie and the main clue to that is that we're still attracting inward investment particularly in the high tech sectors.

Note the recent announcement by the US company pharmacutical company Wyeth who amongst other things are funding a £15m research programme working with Abd'n, Dundee and I think, Edi Unis on some new medical stuff.

The question to ask here is why isn't there a Scottish or even a UK company commercialising this technology. If we're as good at it as we appear to be then sensibly we should be the ones making the money out of it.

The answer of course is that finding investment for these sorts of ventures in Scotland is like pulling hen's teeth. The financial sector isn't really interested and as long as that continues we'll continue to struggle to grow..

If you want to understand why the financial services sector isn't interested then read George Kerevan's article yesterday called "Darling is paying price for Labour's Faustian deal with big business".
51

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 09:58:19
#73 Jackie Priest: back again for a second go! “Scotland is in the process of becoming independent”???!!!

Don’t fool yourself, troublesome priestie! Just because there’s a Nat government, it doesn’t mean that support for independence is advancing one iota. Pause for thought some time, priestie and ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, the Nats are in power because their non independence policies were mistakenly seen by the Scottish people to offer a refreshing alternative to the a Labour administration which had become tainted by a Westminster Government which is almost inevitably running out of steam after many years in power. Am I right or am I right?
52

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 09:58:28
#76 Rasputin

You've obviously never been to Scandinavia. I have and on many occassions on business.

Norway and Sweden are of course as involved in the global market as Scotland or the UK. As simple examples Norway sells ships and oil/gas technology all over the planet and Sweden sells Volvos, Saab Aircraft and electronics systems everywhere.

Norway in particular has beaten Scotland and the UK hands down in the development and roll out of new energy technologies to the extent that it looks as if Scottish Power is to do a deal with a Norwegian company to supply it with tidal current turbines. Makes you proud eh!
53

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 10:05:25
#79 Troublesome priestie: you are an intelligent man and know as well as I do that many countries in the western world have problems with nationalism within their boundaries: it is to nations such as Catalonia and Quebec that you should more properly be looking for your comparisons. In those two national regions, nationalist administrations have taken power (as in Scotland) but this has not led to separation. One does not follow from the other, priestie old fellow!
54

Gothic Rose,

15/02/2008 10:11:05
Well the feature was interesting.Can`t say the same for the posts!
55

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 10:12:36
#81 So called Strategist: I stand by my guns! Your comparison with Scandinavian countries is entirely spurious. You cannot tell me that these countries provide a suitable comparator for Scotland, given the fact that Scotland is not a country in its own right and so its economy is inevitably far more linked to the market of the UK than can be said of the Scandinavian countries and their links to wider European markets. You say you are a businessmen!!! Well, I wouldn’t invest a fiver in any business you were behind if this is the extent of your grasp of basic economics, jumped up Nat Numptie!
56

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 10:23:06
#84 Rasputin

Got it in one haven't you... Scotland is limited in what it can achieve economically because of its link to the UK. Independent countries such as Sweden and Norway do much better because they can control their own economic levers.

Good for you.. I'm impressed.
57

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 10:33:07
#84 The “Strategist”: you’re conceding that I’m right then! The corollary of what you are saying is that, even if Scotland were foolhardy and, dare I say, stupid enough to break away from the UK, then it would continue to be dependent on the wider UK market, but this would only be hindered by the fact that there would be a completely otiose separatist administration in Edinburgh. The fact that nuts like you want Scotland to become separate from the UK isn’t going to do away with the dependency on the economy of the rest of the UK overnight. On the contrary, it will only make matters worse by causing a flight of capital from Scotland due to the uncertainty of all the separatist nonsense. Game, set and match to Rasputin! I am on fire this morning!
58

Publius,

London 15/02/2008 11:04:04
Good article...but there are things we can learn from Ireland. Here's three.
(1) Ditch the socialism/social democracy which dominates Scottish economic thinking. Now that the SNP wants lower corporation tax, perhaps one party is at last ditching this silly left wing nonsense. Let's hope that Labour follows suit.
(2) Improve the delivery of English and Maths in schools. This is quite easy. Irish schools are very conservative, disciplined places and that's why their children learn these subjects quickly. (Mind you Japanese children learn Maths even more quickly and they have class sizes of 40 or 50 per teacher. And they have to clean their own classrooms to learn the dignity of labour and to avoid wasting public money on unnecessary cleaners.)
(3) Build some decent roads. The M74 extension is good news, but what about the M8, the A9 north of Perth, the Aberdeen bypass, the A96 from Aberdeen to Inverness? (Incidentally by the time M74 is completed England will have completed the M6 to the border. Isn't the whole of the M74/A74(M) to be renumbered M6?)
59

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:07:17
#87 & 88 Winged Priestie: are you sure that the word “union” is really relevant after 300 years, old fellow? I think you’ll find that it does not reflect the situation on the ground and that many ordinary people would not know what the word means in a political context. It is only the cult-like Nats who keep on trumpeting the word “union”: the concept is pretty well meaningless to everyone else. As for taking the USSR as a point of comparison, sorry, but it is entirely spurious to compare the situation of countries which were forced into a totalitarian regime in modern times with Scotland. I know that Brown has half jokingly been compared to Stalin, but me thinks you doth protest too much, oh troublesome priestie! Scotland is an integral part of the UK and indeed many of the leaders of the current national administration obtained their democratic mandates from Scottish constituencies. You are only making a fool of yourself with your comparison between Scotland and countries which became submerged against their will into the despotism that was the former USSR, priestie!

“Some kind of loopy right wing hoo ha.”: thanks for this description of many of the antics of the current SNP administration, which has failed to advance the so called case for independence one iota: all anyone associates with the SNP nowadays is their council tax freeze and prescription charge bribes. Everyone is fast forgetting that the party’s very raison d’etre is supposedly as a pressure group intent on obtaining independence for Scotland, and this is the explanation for the party’s current popularity in the polls (and I think you know it deep down how ever much you protest, priestie!)
60

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/02/2008 11:11:00
AM2, your moniker seems to be subject of a great deception, hpb
61

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:20:06
#91 "Ayrshire": I am not AM2 but another well known enemy of the Nutty Nats! Try again! It's penny drop time (although most of you are economically illiterate by your very deluded natures anyway!
62

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/02/2008 11:27:57
93? I think you mistake me for someone who cares an iota who you are. 91 was not addressed to you, was it?
63

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:30:20
#94: begone, fakie! You're name's mud round here after all your silly trawling and spamming! Enough already!
64

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:32:04
I mean trolling! It's not clever, fakie, and you've been making a complete fool of yourself over the last few days, voice of Ayrshire, Scotland and the EU! I am Ayrshire Scot...the voice of the ordinary man...I have seen the light...etc etc...Enough already, fakie!
65

Rasputin 2­,

15/02/2008 11:38:42
And let me tell you, I know a thing or two about trolling and making a fool of myself! I can teach you nutty nats a thing or three!!
66

Neil,

Glasgow 15/02/2008 11:39:38
The article claims that Ireland's success is because of "catch up". Well they caught up with us years ago & have now caught up with & indeed passed the USA.

The article also acknowledges that their success is because of lower business taxes & less regulation particularly in housing but denies we can replicate the latter because we have much more restrictive planning rules. Unfortunately instead of drawing the obvious conclusion he says that destructive regulation is inherent in our psyche & we had better just put up with failure.

This would be a shame since success is so clearly & easily achievable.
67

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:46:03
#97 Fakie: there's a hard space after your "2"! Do you think we're all stupid on here? Begone!
68

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 11:47:27
Correction, it's maybe not a hard space but it's some kind of a hidden object after the "2". You are a disgrace and a laughing stock, fakie! Can't you see that no-one's laughing with you on here?
69

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 11:48:28
Rasputin 2

All very amusing but I believe that at long last people are slowly beginning to grasp the concept that the economy of the UK is now in a major mess and that Westminster's economic policies have done much more harm than good.

If to get out from under this mess the only way forward is independence then the Scots are hopefully pragmatic enough to make that decision.

The big question everyone needs to ask themselves is whether or not they see any positive economic policy changes on the horizon regardless of whether the UK is ruled by Labour or the Tories.
70

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 12:01:12
#100 The Strategist: and just how would a separatist government in Edinburgh make one iota of difference to anything? Don’t you know that there are only so many ways to run a modern European Economy, oh pie in the sky idealist? Why do you call yourself “The Strategist” incidentally? You have all the strategy of the disenchanted wife who bawls at her husband that “it’s all your fault”!
71

Gusto,

15/02/2008 12:01:55
Spell Keltic with a C, you're already Irish!
Psalmond again, this time in Kerry!
Thyme to call the scots Jameson
72

everard,

"uk" 15/02/2008 12:12:07
This "celtic" tiger renaissance wouldn't have anything to do with the 30 billion the Irish government receives from the EU every year would it? Thats the same amount the "Uk" government pays into the EU every year.
73

Richard,

West Lothian 15/02/2008 12:21:11

Rasputin 2 = Cringing, little, feeble minded, unionist, quisling, content to see his/her/it's country reduced to a region of the U.K. with no power and no say over it's future economic well being and resources!

Truely pathetic!
74

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 12:21:34
#102 Rasputin 2

Now now.. I've enjoyed our discord so far. Cool it on the personal insults please.

The reason I think an independent Scottish Govt would make a difference is because it is less likely to follow the so called "Anglo Saxon" economic model adopted by the US and UK and much more likely to follow the European and Scandinavian "Social Democratic" model. This is a much more balanced economic model where manufacturing and science are deemed as important if not more important than financial and other services.

However, to be fair to our American cousins their Anglo Saxon model is somewhat different to ours and is very supportive of things like new technology etc. Ours is massively overdependent on financial services with all the consequences we are seeing now (Northern Rock, the credit crunch etc)..

George Kerevan wrote a useful piece on this yesterday.
75

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 12:31:36
Norway, like Scotland is swimming in oil. Unlike Scotland it does not have to help service large military spending. Yet taxes in Norway - and all the other Scandinavian countries, for that matter - are significantly higher than they are in Scotland. If nationalists are advocating we be more like Norway, then surely they should have the honesty to admit that this will involve all Scots paying significantly higher levels of both direct and indirect tax.

On the other hand, if we are to follow the low tax Irish route - let's be honest about what that means. It means less investment in infrastructure, the end of a cradle to grave welfare state and the laying off of many thousands of people employed by the state.

So, SNP supporters - which is it to be?
76

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 12:32:54
#106 - So you are advocating increasing direct and indirect taxation. What levels would you like to see?
77

Rasputin 2,

15/02/2008 12:35:21
#106 The "Strategist": and how easily would this “social democratic model” adapt to work in Scotland, given that the Nats plan to rip it asunder from the “Anglo Saxon” economic model? It would be implemented against a background of economic dislocation and resultant capital flight from Scotland, so it would not exactly have an auspicious springboard.
78

Ciaran R,

Cavan - Ireland 15/02/2008 12:38:52
Three points:

1. It's unduly pessimistic to say that 100,000 jobs are under threat. There is certainly a downturn in the property market and jobs have been lost but it won't amount to anywhere near 100,000. Much of the slack will be taken up in the ramping up of infrastructural projects. Also, many of those working here in construction are from eastern Europe and will probably move on to the next hot spot. Ironically this could turn out to be Poland since that country is now undergoing a building boom and experiencing huge labour shortages.

2. Comparing living standards between the Republic of Ireland and Scotland or indeed the UK as a whole is difficult. GDP per capita here is indeed higher but that doesn't necessarily translate into the equivalent amount of money in people's pockets. For one thing – as already mentioned – we’re spending quite a bit building up infrastructure; this diverts money from income per capita. This is not such a factor in the UK.

3. One reason why Scotland may not be able to replicate the boom here that wasn’t mentioned in the article is simple timing; the train may have left the station as regards FDI. 15-17 years ago when we hit our purple patch, the east European countries were still emerging from the communist period and China and India weren’t as competitive then as they are now. Also, for reasons of technology and telecommunications, physical location was more of a factor in choosing the destination for investment. All that has changed now; the east European countries are very effective competitors and to sell many services into a country, you don’t have to be physically present. All in all, the Celtic Lion faces a harsher environment than the Celtic Tiger did.
79

Neil,

Glasgow 15/02/2008 13:14:49
Everard 104 if you are going to just make up figures why limit yourself to mere £30 billion. Why not say £120 billion & make your case 4 times stronger & no less untrue.
80

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 13:30:27
#107 Border Scot

Personally I prefer the Norwegian model. Tax - except corporation tax - may be higher but the benefits of that are a genuinely superior education and health system and a much better regime (pension etc) for the elderly. Here, although we're paying much higher taxes than we were ten years ago the benefits arising from that are difficult to see.

If you've never been to Norway then I really recommend a visit. I think you'd be very surprised.

#109 Rasputin

I think the social democratic model would be fairly easily implemented here. "Ripping it asunder" from the current model is rather emotive language. Look at it another way... Essentially the social democratic model is one in which things like manufacturing have more importance than they do now and isn't this exactly what even the Labour Holyrood Govt tried to achieve through initiatives such as "Smart Successful Scotland"? They wanted to boost the high tech sector, increase R&D commercialisation etc, establish and grow new high growth businesses etc.

They failed because they tried to do it in an economic environment that does not favour this sort of activity. Changing that environment i.e the economic model we currently operate, to one that does favour that sort of activity is critical to our economic future.

One thing where I do agree with you is that independence may well result in - as you put it - some capital flight. But then if this capital wasn't being applied here properly anyway this doesn't really concern me.
81

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 13:55:41
#112 - If we are already paying higher taxes than we were 10 years ago with, as you say, the benefits arising from that hard to see, then how will paying much higher taxes make things better?

I have been to Norway, it is a beautiful country. Because of its relative isolation in terms of global trade, its relative lack of a heavy industrial base and its almost complete social cohesion, it has never had to deal with the problems that have confronted Scotland in recent decades. It is also jaw droppingly expensive - probably because, in part at least, VAT rates are so high and so universally applied.

Apart from its population size, I think it would be difficult to find a European country that is less like Scotland than Norway; although running it close would be Ireland.

The thing about countries is that each one is very different - what works in one, will not work in another. However, I do applaud you for your honesty in stating that you favour a high tax economic model. I wish more SNP supporters were as honest. Difficult choices will have to be made should Scotland choose independence. This is something the Scottish people should be fully aware of before taking the decision to go it alone.
82

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 14:03:55
113

We do not speak Norwegian here, we do not read Norwegian books, listen to Norwegian music, watch Norwegian films or go to see Norwegian plays. In fact, it is probably fair to say that for the last 1,000 years or so the Norwegians have had almost no cultural influence in the greater part of Scotland.

Furthermore, the Norwegians have never played a central part in running a global Empire, the Norwegians have never had a heavy industrial base, the Norwegians have never had to cope with mass migration to their cities and the Norwegians do not have a major catholic protestant divide.

On tax, the simple fact is that Norwegians pay more as a percentage of what they eran than we do. They may be happy paying it, but they do pay more. To say otherwise is dishonest. If the SNP believe that come indpendence everyone in Scotland will earn more money so that we can all pay more tax, then they should say so. If there are any speeches from any SNP leaders on this subject, I have not seen them.
83

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 14:35:54
#115 Border Scot

You're right.. What works in one doesn't always work in another and it may well be we end up with a hybrid model because it works better for Scotland.

I don't agree though that Norway is isolated in terms of global trade. Their oil/gas industry is far more global than ours and they manufacture far more in this sector than we do. They also still build a lot of specialised ships. Their marine and oil/gas industry is very international.

They are also renowned for new energy technologies. For example Norsk Hydro is one of the rare builders of hydrogen electrolysers, they have a very successful solar energy tech company and as I mentioned before they are already building tidal turbines. They've also have a company building electric city cars.

Trying to pretend they are an industrial backwater doesn't wash I'm afraid.
84

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 14:48:40
#117 - I never said it was an industrial backwater, I said that it has historically been isolated in terms of global trade and that it lacked a heavy industrial heritage; which means that Norway has not had to deal with the problems that have faced Scotland over the last few decades.

I am also not saying Scotland could not bve like Norway. What I am saying is that nationalists who say such things do not spell out what this would, in fact, entail. They tend to say that Norway has a similar population to ours and oil and that's it. They never talk about the much higher taxes. In the same way, when they talk about Ireland they do not talk about the much smaller state and the lack of a cradle to grave welfaare system.
85

Ciaran R,

Cavan - Ireland. 15/02/2008 15:00:31
Everard, I've seen some truly extravagant claims but yours really does take the biscuit. 30 billion per *year*? I'm not even going to bother inquiring whether you’re referring to Turkish lira or Zimbabwean dollars because we are in fact a net contributor to the EU now. If you’re a wee bit confused with the cohesion funds we received over a period of 5-6 years in the early 90s, they amounted to about 4-5 billion pounds sterling. Other countries received them too and didn’t experience our growth rates which would suggest they were far from being the only factor. In any case, they never amounted to more than a couple of percentage points of our GDP.
86

FM in Dundee,

15/02/2008 15:07:52
Hi Border Scot

I think it's worth pointing out a few facts surrounding Norway.

1. Norwegians DO generally have higher disposable incomes than we do.

2. Higher taxation is not a prerequisite to Norway's success, it is a social democratic policy choice supported by the majority of the population

3. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world

4. Most importantly: Norway has the highest living standards in the world.

It is true that no two countries are the same but we can see from a suite of examples that independence has delivered massive economic and social benefits for other small countries with comparable attributes to Scotland.

We need full control of our economy to implement the best fiscal policies to make Scotland as successful as it can be, being innovative as well as drawing on the lessons learnt from other economies.
87

karinxx,

15/02/2008 15:52:32
AM2 I am confused as to why you are talking about norway could you please explain?
88

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 15:58:52
#121 AM2

You're right.. Comparison with Norway is often unhelpful especially for those who really aren't interested in improving Scotland's economic situation.

The position is very clear to those of use who know Norway well. It is a considerably wealthier nation than Scotland in almost all respects. It invests in its future, it has a supportive financial sector, its Govt is economically patriotic. It has an absolutely first class health service, it's education system is excellent, it has relatively low crime levels, few if any poverty hotspots and as someone else mentioned it has almost complete social cohesion.
89

Neil,

Glasgow 15/02/2008 16:09:15
125 It saves having to discuss the question of why Ireland's economy worked (without an oil bonanza) which is the point of the article but brings home some uncomfortable truths about our own performance.

90

Splashie,

15/02/2008 16:28:31
129. AM2, you have been corrected on this point repeatedly.

The SNP have set no targets for the oil fund. They gave an example of what it could be, based on prives at the time.

Your claim that any funds would be diverted from services to pay into the oil fund is totally false.

The oil fund would take surplus revenues from oil. It would not have a hard target requiring and diversion of other revenues. Please retract.
91

Splashie,

15/02/2008 16:29:20
129. Why does the Uk have no oil fund?
92

Splashie,

15/02/2008 16:31:35
129. AM2, do you accept that Norway comes ahead of the UK and Scotland in UN standard or living rankings? And has twice recently topped this?
93

Border Scot,

15/02/2008 16:41:19
#126 - In other words, Norway is a completely different country to Scotland and so comparisons beyond the most basic are absolutely nonsensical.

#131 - That's a very pertinent question. It should have such a fund. But it does not. And the point that AM2 is making is that if an independent Scotland were to have such a fund it would mean that the money could not be spent by the government, thus meaning either higher taxes or lower investment.
94

Splashie,

15/02/2008 16:47:09
133 Rubbish. Only surplus revenues would be invested in the oil fund. At various points in the 70s, 80, and 90s economomists have stated that the biggest problem stemming from Scottish oil revenues for an independent Scotland would be inflationary pressure if the revenues were all spent - a similar problem Norway faced which is one of the reasons it, and many other countries, have an oil fund - Scottish oil revenues were of course entirely spent - propping up a failing UK economy in the 80s, and now to cover part of the Uks massive budget deficit......
95

W Smith,

Middle East 15/02/2008 16:50:24
For the year 2007:

1) Singapore's economic growth is 7.7%

2) Tax Revenue surplus of £3.2 billion

This has been achieved with no oil and no excuses.

The corporation tax and income tax is lower than in Scotland and the exchange rate is one Singapore dollar = 33 pence.

The point is from a simple book keeping / accounting point of view there is money being wasted big time in Scotland.

BTW
Singapore government isn't prepared to spend billions on benefits for teenage single mums, free abortions, methadone, holiday camp prisons and social security benefits for illegal immigrants.

So its economic growth with sacrifices involved.