Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Three little words that sent party running for cover

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 10 May 2008
THE week began with three small words: "Bring it on." But it ended with the Secretary of State for Scotland being accused of running for cover and other senior Labour figures ducking difficult questions.
And there is now an apparently unbridgeable divide between Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, and his Labour leader in Scotland, Wendy Alexander, who uttered the now infamous phrase demanding the SNP bring forward its plans for a referendum on independence.

Labour's meltdown yesterday brought accusations that Des Browne, the Scotland Secretary at Westminster, was "running scared". The Tories said he had refused repeated requests to appear on television to discuss the timing of a referendum poll.

Tomorrow, the difference of opinion between Ms Alexander, who wants an early referendum, and Mr Brown – who wants to wait until the Calman Commission reports next year – will be further exposed by Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman.

In a pre-recorded GMTV interview, she refuses on seven occasions to endorse Ms Alexander's "bring it on" call.

Ms Harman was forced to deny that Labour – following its worst national opinion-poll rating since 1930 – was being buffeted like John Major, the beleaguered Tory prime minister in the early 1990s. She insisted there was no "fundamental split in the Labour Party".

Ms Alexander doesn't even appear to have the wholehearted support of her brother Douglas, the International Development Secretary. He made it clear he backed the position of Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, that any vote should not happen until a review into the future of devolution concludes.

Asked whether he supported his sister's call for a referendum "now", Mr Alexander told Channel 4 News: "I support the government's position."

At Holyrood, there was concern that Ms Alexander's remarks could undermine the Calman Commission. Nicol Stephen, the Liberal Democrat leader, feared the debate on Scotland's future would become "very polarised" between Ms Alexander, Mr Brown and Alex Salmond, the First Minister.

The SNP said a breakdown of the YouGov poll put it on 32 per cent, with Labour on 26 per cent, giving the SNP 23 MPs if repeated at a general election.

Meanwhile, a source close to the First Minister described claims that the SNP was prepared to "cosy up" to a future Tory government at Westminster as "utter rubbish".

Back in Scotland, Ms Alexander was said to be "seriously considering" the idea of bringing forward a motion in Holyrood next month on a referendum.

Under parliamentary rules, Labour are not allowed to bring forward an actual referendum bill as the Scottish Government has published a white paper with the intention of legislating in the lifetime of the parliament. But a motion may embarrass the SNP if they voted it down.

A final decision by Ms Alexander will not be made until Wednesday, after Mr Salmond outlines his programme for the year ahead. She has demanded he includes a referendum bill in that programme.

The tense atmosphere was summed up with speculation Ms Alexander was about to issue a resignation statement. But she had simply cancelled a constituency engagement because her children's babysitter was ill.


The full article contains 523 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 May 2008 9:45 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

09/05/2008 23:42:00

Aye, and Jackie Ballie has been spotted with a bottle of wine and a laptop heading round to Wendy's. The Hut had a face like fiz as well. Not a happy Start Wars extra :@)

I don't think it is for a girls night in.

A fiver says the girls are working out Bendy Wendy's resignation speech?

Have we been here before? I mean Wendy leaving the political stage to "get a life" outside politics?

With Labour MP's branding La Wendy "Kamikazee" and "Raving Mad" she is probably going to jump before she is pushed.

Whilst McAvities Cat Broon is not one for doing the dirty work, he is that Big Fist Thumpingly angry that must be guy close to be preparing the levers for the stage trap door beneath the brilliant, but bonkers Scottish Labour leader !!
2

druidh,

edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:07:42
Worth a read...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece
3

,

10/05/2008 00:15:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Jude The Obtuse,

10/05/2008 00:21:45
#2,

I read and enjoyed.

#3, You have issues. Time for your meds.
5

Jabba Desilijic Tiure's Attorney,

10/05/2008 00:39:55
Enough.

My client, though often regarded as fictional, has rights too.

He has never gone on a girls' night out (or in) in Weegieland
6

BIG EYE,

Paisley 10/05/2008 00:43:44
Come on let's be fair, she has lost her brother's support but she has attracted to her right shoulder Lord Forsyth who thinks her tactics are spot on.

douglas was lucky, it was his turn to spend five minutes this month speaking to the people of Paisley and on returning home he decided o abandon her to avoid a family wipe out at the next election. That won't work either Douglas the voters of Renfrewshire will take you out first!

So now we can look forward to Lord Forsyth and socialist Wendy working hand in hand to dish it to the SNP.

This is dreamland for nationalists!

Bring it on!
7

BIG EYE,

Paisley 10/05/2008 00:43:44
Come on let's be fair, she has lost her brother's support but she has attracted to her right shoulder Lord Forsyth who thinks her tactics are spot on.

douglas was lucky, it was his turn to spend five minutes this month speaking to the people of Paisley and on returning home he decided o abandon her to avoid a family wipe out at the next election. That won't work either Douglas the voters of Renfrewshire will take you out first!

So now we can look forward to Lord Forsyth and socialist Wendy working hand in hand to dish it to the SNP.

This is dreamland for nationalists!

Bring it on!
8

karinxxx,

10/05/2008 00:45:57
Can they get rid of wendy after offering to suppor her.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:46:56

"Three little words"...."Bring it on."

Honest these, "Three little words"

Have really annoyed me when spoken!

Usually the only people that use them, is a person in a,..
'NO WIN' Position!

Usually a 'Smart Ar$**'!
10

Boy Wonder,

10/05/2008 00:50:27
The female half of the Alexander Brothers is a gift to the SNP and FM Eck.

Isn't she wonderful!! :D
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:51:21

#3 Gina,

Watch out the,..'Red Pen' will be about at about, 10am!

12

Strathturret,

montrose 10/05/2008 00:51:58
Please stay Wendy.

Seriously if Brown forces Wendy out, I think Labour is finished in Scotland. They cannot any longer pretend they are a Scottish party. And who has Brown pencilled in as leader? Another appointment? Its just like East Germany.
13

Vivas,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:54:09
#1 Angus ... Jackie carrying a laptop ? Sure it wasn't a deep filled stuffed crust pizza with extra cheese and salami ? ... she likes a mid evening snack before she has supper...
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:54:38

#12,

BW! what on earth are you doing on here at this time,?
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 00:58:14

BTW I have great admiration for Wendy, for her to use this phrase, she must of been Furious!
16

Boy Wonder,

10/05/2008 00:59:12
#16 Chuckles ... I'm keeping the owls company. We all know why you're on!
17

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 10/05/2008 01:04:56
Wendy is the only Labour politician I can hear who is actually facing up to the reality that a referendum WILL be held.

If Scottish Labour are to retain any credibility they should get behind Wendy with everything they have got and distance themselves from the incompetent bungler that Bean in Westminster has become.

Perhaps this will be the end of "new Labour" and good riddance to it as well.

New labour never had anything in common with original labour ideals and values, perhaps at last Labour in Scotland will come to its senses and return to its roots.
18

Guga II,

Rockall 10/05/2008 01:08:57
There is one thing I'd like to say to Maggie Broon, the leader of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, and well known Stalinist, totalitarian control freak. When are you going to have a general election for Westminster? Bring it on!!!!

I also hope that this whole farce highlights the fact, to people in Scotland, that the New labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) is run and controlled by London.
19

,

10/05/2008 01:09:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Mercian,

10/05/2008 01:18:37
She actually looks quite sexy in that photo!!
21

,

10/05/2008 01:28:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 10/05/2008 01:33:41
Wendy Alexander has stumbled from one disaster to another as leader of the Labour MSPs. In a way I feel sorry for her. She put herself through the embarrassment of the the dodgy donations, but came out the other side, with the opinion that she had been entirely vindicated. Also the loss of all her spin doctors says something about her manner.

Instead of learning from her mistakes and employing caution in her actions, she opens her mouth before she has got her brain into gear. She was so desperate to impress on the Politics Show that she could not keep her own counsel.

She is the sort of woman who could not keep a juicy piece of gossip without passing it on, to impress her hearers. That might be ok at the tenement stairhead but not in a political leader.

She is just too accident prone to survive now. Her nerves must be totally frayed for she must be getting it from her London colleagues. I can only imagine what Browne and Cairns have said to her. I cannot believe they have not spoken to her. Even her brother Douglas must be getting it in the neck. The English Labour MPs must be getting really fed up with Brown, Darling, wee Douglas and Wendy. The Scots contingent have made a dreadful fist of things since Blair departed. I think a whole clearout of the Scots in the cabinet is going to be the price Brown pays to stay in No 10. He has surrounded himself with too many cronies who have given him nothing but headaches.

Wendy is a loose cannon and her days as Holyrood leader must be numbered. Maybe its all 'water off a duck's back' to her, but I think most folk would wish to resign, if they had made such a monumental mistake at work. For the good of herself and her family she should maybe retire from public life as she is not cut out for it.
23

Navvy,

10/05/2008 01:35:26
LOL
24

,

10/05/2008 01:48:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

,

10/05/2008 01:53:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

,

10/05/2008 02:02:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Guga II,

Rockall 10/05/2008 02:15:59
#22 Mercian.

Methinks you've been on your own for too long.
28

Marky Bhoy,

Ecosse 10/05/2008 02:18:58
If You believe in the union good on you However it is up to the self determination of the Scottish people if we wish to remain in it

Lets gave a vote on this in 2010 and if Scotland loses 2015 sounds good for a replay

UNIONISTS you must win all the time we only have to win once and it is Independance
29

Jude The Obtuse,

10/05/2008 02:30:26
It's a total crock of the proverbial.

Scotland will take decades to be grown-up enough for self-determination.
30

Jude The Obtuse,

10/05/2008 02:33:45
#27 needs deletion.

She's a ****
31

Guga II,

Rockall 10/05/2008 02:57:20
#33. You picked a very appropriate name, especially the Obtuse bit. And isn't Jude the name of some catholic saint, something about lost causes.
32

,

10/05/2008 03:22:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

Julian.,

edinburgh 10/05/2008 03:26:55
Mark Bhoy #31

"Lets gave a vote on this in 2010 and if Scotland loses 2015 sounds good for a replay"

And how exactly can Scotland lose? The outcome will be what the majority have decided.

You are a typical nationalist my friend: Telling the majority what's good for them, even if they don't want independence, delaying the vote until you can try and get more chance of winning and then requesting a reply a few years after if it doesn't go your way.

34

,

10/05/2008 03:31:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Julian.,

edinburgh 10/05/2008 03:33:46
Guga,

Sorry but I think she looks quite sexy too in that photo.

I agree with you, bring it on Broon. He has absolutely no legitimacy and will be punished for his sins. Unfotunately it will take 2 years. As for Wendy, I beg to disagree. It's a breath of fresh air to see someone so high up in the party break free from the party line.
36

Willie Macleod,

Wick 10/05/2008 04:37:32
Calvinist said on yesterdays paper What do these forums say about us. Read them and see. We can not discuss our future without humiliating and degrading any one who disagrees with the group mentality and by that I mean Unionist And Nationalist
37

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/05/2008 05:21:19
The Times has produce a very good article that explains Labours confusion.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece
38

missing home,

la verne 10/05/2008 06:14:16
29, guga, my thoughts exactly! She looks dumpy, frumpy and grumpy. You two guys who thought she looked sexy need to clean your specs or get a life!
39

izzie,

dundee 10/05/2008 06:24:30
How long do you think it will be before a certain Labour MSP defects - it is becoming more and more obvious. Incidently its scary to think but for the last list msp Wendy could have been FM
40

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

10/05/2008 06:56:12
#31 Marky Bhoy.

You despicable lowlife.

Your moniker is enough to tell everybody where your allegiances lie.

However, to use a well known IRA quotation in your post is an insult to all the thousands of innocent people who lost their lives to that mob.

You disgusting specimen.
41

donald,

glasgow 10/05/2008 07:00:07
Are you sure it was laptop the bagumman had?

Wis it no' full o' Broon envelopes for Wendy's needy retirement fund?
42

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

10/05/2008 07:00:17
Wendy is a sexy babe.

You nats just dont appreciate true beauty when you see it.

Nicola looks like Stan Laurel.

Alex Salmond looks like Oliver Hardy.
43

Dooogie,

Highland 10/05/2008 07:15:32
If "Hot Lips" Wendy was the best choice for leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Who was second-best? If she goes or is pushed, what second-best numpty will represent them in our Parliament?

Is that a sharpening of knives I hear in the background?
44

brownlie,

10/05/2008 07:33:38
50 Rules

Does it not strike you as strange that opposition parties always criticise a government if they do not adhere to their election manifesto and here we have a situation where the opposition are positively urging the government not to adhere to their manifesto.

The nats made their time-table quite clear in the manifesto so why should they change it to appease the minority parties?
45

pehman,

sussex 10/05/2008 07:52:55
If slab REALLY want to test Scottish popular opinion then I can think of no better test than the STILL pending by-election in Motherwell.

After wendy gets the boot why not have two on the same day ?
46

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 07:55:05
#50 Rules

Are you saying every government should bring forward legislation whenever the opposition call for it???

Would Red Wendy do what the SNP wanted if she was FM?

Remember New Labour Sleaze are NOT the government any more, they are the opposition.

They'll be the opposition for a long time!
47

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 08:07:18

#70 Just for Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus

The sexier side of the WENDY.

http://tinyurl.com/5z34gq
48

Calvinist,

10/05/2008 08:08:36
#
Thanks Willie,

For those of you that missed my post yesterday, this was the gist of it:

"This level of discussion is very depressing and even frightening. If this forum truly represents the views of the people of Scotland, then I fear for the future of our nation. Are we going to be ruled by bigots and ideologues who are impervious to and incapable of rational discussion?"

Can you rise to this challenge? If not you destroy the future of generations to come- they will pay the price of this idiocy.

Perhaps the reason why Scottish Universities have been starved of funds by successive administrations (especially the present Scottish one) is that, in order to rule us, our masters are dependent on a population that is poorly educated and incapable of free thought?
49

Andrew D,

Brisbane 10/05/2008 08:20:01
I've never seen Iain Gray before but watching the Newsnight performance.

1. He is absolutely like Family Guy
2. He looks like he wants to cry and run away
3. Poor poor Labour.

They are truly ridiculous.
50

Danny Mather,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 08:21:57
I love this bit from the "Wendy's Week" piece in the Times today

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece

It’s First Minister’s Questions at midday today, so I have a showdown with Alex Salmond. At about 9.45am, I ask him to meet me for lunch. It’s cunning. I’m messing with his mind.

“Now?” says Salmond. “I’ve just had breakfast. Why would I want lunch at 9.45am?” “Aha!” I say. “So you are ruling out the possibility of lunch?” “Well, aye,” says the First Minister, sounding baffled. “I’ll only want lunch later. At lunchtime.” “Hypocrite!” I say. I can run rings around this man.
51

jdships,

10/05/2008 08:22:59
50 Rulesbutnotrulers,

The SNP made their time-table quite clear in the manifesto so why should they change it ?
I was not an SNP voter at the last election .
However accepting the democratic situation I am prepared to give them to 2010 to prove to me they are worth voting for .
Am still a "don't know" but am happy to wait .
While Wendy may feel the situation is not impressing investors what in the world impression is she giving to Scottish voters ?,
Her political future must surely be in grave doubt !!
52

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 08:26:50
Well, with Red Wendy on the verge of leaving/being sacked, I'm putting my money (and all my not inconsiderable lobbying techniques!) on Lard Foolkes to replace her as Supreme Leader of New Labour Sleaze and Corruption.
With the leadership of His Lardship, the Union will be safe! (although the expense bill might be a wee bitty higher!)
53

Dollar Tim,

Dollar 10/05/2008 08:30:42
#55 That's us telt then. I wish I thought as highly of myself as you seem to think of yourself. Is it cold there up on your high horse?
54

Rickie,

Wearing a t-shirt of a wide mouthed frog! 10/05/2008 08:49:08
Wee Scabby Dug, "I support the government's position."

Which one? And, which one?

First which position and second which government :)

Oh hang on, the Alexander sisters could never answer anything, so we'll wait for those answers...
55

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 10/05/2008 08:49:49
The more this all goes on, the more glad I am I came back to Scotland. I think personally when all is said and done, its not just about winnning a referendum, its about the princple actually being allowed to have one on independence atall(no vote on it for 301 years so far). I hope the people will vote for independence and standing on our own two feet. And That isnt just about better or worse(though as an economics graduate I know it would be better), thats just about maturity of the nation and belief in ourselves that we can and should choose the future direction of our nation. Its great that Labour will now support a referendum and that referendum should happen as per the manifesto pledge of the SNP. Elections and polls are NOT THE SAME as a vote to see our nation gain equal status in the world, no matter what the unionists say.Its exciting times. YES/NO is the way to go and I believe we as a people faced with that choice will decide to let go of the apron strings. Bring it on!!!
56

Yeti,

10/05/2008 08:52:37
Wendy ‘disowned’ by brother

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/632562
57

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 08:53:57
i prefer 2010 as the date for it. Mainly for selfish reasons, hopefull the SNP will have proven themselves popular in government and i believe by that point the tories will be back in power and i'm hoping given the choice between tories and independence it is enough to push all the undecided people towards independence.
58

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 10/05/2008 09:00:50
"Bring it on!" - bit Gladiators for me. Her last FMQ performance rose to a shrill nedette crescendo before she remembered her anti-Senga lessons and toned it down a bit.

You just can't imagine Auntie Annabel using that kind of street approach to political rhetoric can you. But she remains the most credible of the opposition. Why she sticks with the Wendy-inspired commission is a mystery.

Broon must be spitting blood and teeth now, but he's dropped himself in the Brown Stuff now having endorsed Wendy as the "next FM". Messy...
59

Loki, Death Angel,

The Dark Side 10/05/2008 09:03:32
Three words that I think sum up the entire Scottish culture but have probably been said to Wendy several times by now, 'Take a Drink'

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki
60

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 09:04:24
labour are pretty much like neds, they have a mob mentality, they should adopt the rangers mantra 'no one likes us we don't care' (i think they really do care though just don't want to admit it.
61

cnoc nagers,

Heilans 10/05/2008 09:06:10
To quote Elton'so sad, so sad its a sad, sad situation and it sgetting more absurd'. Both apparently promoted beyond their abilities. The greatest sadness of all as a old time labour supporter until all the corruption carry on I see no one of any stature or ability waiting in the wings to take over. The only future is 10 years in opposition. Start singing, Elton.
62

cnoc nagers,

Heilans 10/05/2008 09:08:49
The Herald (am I allowed to mention them) is reporting that Bendy has already had calls to resign. Is the Scotsman out of touch or just ignoring this.
63

Nikostratos,

10/05/2008 09:10:52
#51 Brownose

Not so long ago when the snp reneged on some of their Manifesto commitments they said they were only 'Aspiration's'.

How you Nat's conveniently forget when you want to

#64 Megz

I admire your honesty at least you unlike most of the 'nationalists' beasts tell like it is
64

megz,

sorry if this has been posted already but it is so 10/05/2008 09:10:55
sorry if this has been posted already but it is so funny

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece

And this;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article3904248.ece Love the picture btw
65

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:12:27
The comments in the Daily Torygraph are amazing in their depth of dribbling jingoism.

All baited on by Vicki Woods, spectacularly laced with hatred. Seems her hubby is Scottish...

"Oh, and about our UN seat. Not the ordinary one where we snuggle up to our big buddy America, but the special one, the Security Council one, the one where we really do punch (or flail wildly) above our weight. China, France, Russia, the US and us? Don't think so. The Auld Alliance (between Scotland and France, remember) will have the most tremendous fun schmoozing India and kicking us when we're down. Chippy bunch, the Jocks."



http://tinyurl.com/6s4q44
66

megz,

10/05/2008 09:15:25
#71 Well what would be the point in lying? I find being honest is always the best policy, saves you having to remember what you've said.
67

Rickie,

Wearing a t-shirt of a wide mouthed frog! 10/05/2008 09:19:10
#72 - that is funny and so true.
68

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:19:33
#71 Nikos

I completely agree.

"Our long term objective is a lower starting rate of income tax of ten pence in the pound"

-Labour 1997 election manifesto/aspiration
69

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 09:22:22
Independence (73): "The comments in the Daily Torygraph are amazing in their depth of dribbling jingoism."

They're fairly similar to this forum, albeit with an obvious change of sign.

"The Auld Alliance (between Scotland and France, remember) will have the most tremendous fun schmoozing India and kicking us when we're down."

That's unpleasant, but it's fear, not jingoism.
70

James.com,

Clifton 10/05/2008 09:22:41
So now we know who is in charge of Labour in Scotland......it's the Babysitter!
71

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 09:26:49
This has been the best couple of weeks in politics I can ever remember - brilliant!!!
Comrade Broon humiliated in the elections, and by Red Wendy.
Red Wendy humiliated by Alex, Nicola and herself.
Ian Grey humiliated as soon as he opened his mouth.
Lard Foolkes humiliated by his silence.
All the Unionists who accused the SNP of a 'deal' with David Cameron - humiliated.
AM2, Highland Pride/Niko, etc, all humiliated by superior intellects.

Oh happy days!!
72

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 09:32:38
Jimmy the Pie (80): "All the Unionists who accused the SNP of a 'deal' with David Cameron - humiliated."

I'm an English Tory (essentially) who supports dissolution of the Union. There is a growing minority here, particularly in the South-East, who support a Tory-SNP deal.
73

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:33:05
#78 Fairfax, why would you choose to leave out "Chippy bunch, the Jocks"?

One of the more charming comments:

"I am an Australian, and I have one 'feeling' about all of this devolution talk.
We are a family.
We need to remain united and face all future challenges together.
There are many pressing concerns greater than this one.
Think of Australia, who would also have to change her flag, as well as New Zealand.
These republic scots people ought to shot, pure and simple.
Their plans are treason."



74

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 09:35:31
"Our long term objective is a lower starting rate of income tax of ten pence in the pound"

-Labour 1997 election manifesto/aspiration

its funny that, labour are now saying the 10p was always going to be a temporary measure.
75

mr angry,

ayrshire 10/05/2008 09:36:13
#44 I bet you are an oil painting , and spend most of your life fighting off the women.
76

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 09:38:27
It is one thing when Alex Salmond votes with other parties to benefit Scotland. There has been no 'deal' done with the Tories. New Labour Sleaze will try any dirty tactic/smear to try and discredit the SNP.

Doesn't seem to be working too well, does it???
77

Calvinist,

10/05/2008 09:38:41
# 60

Just read contributions of the calibre of #3 and get my point. You may disagree with what I say but there is no need to resort to snide insults. That's you telt!
78

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 10/05/2008 09:41:50
Keep bringing it on... Wendy ! your doing agreat job.
79

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:41:51
Iain Gray

http://tinyurl.com/57da32


Quagmire

http://tinyurl.com/6l9e9d


Seperated at birth.


Giggity giggity. Giggity goo
80

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 09:44:50
All the Unionists who accused the SNP of a 'deal' with David Cameron - humiliated.

This old lie was started by the herald yesterday and is now being portayed as fact by jackie bailey to every media source she can find.

The truth is;

It came as the SNP and Tories sought common ground for deal-making if Mr Cameron becomes Prime Minister. Mr Salmond said that Nationalists would vote with the Conservatives at Westminster after the next General Election if that was in "Scotlands interests".

"Clearly, if we could use Scotland's position to vastly extend its influence in a balanced parliament at Westminster, I would take up the negotiating position as First Minister of Scotland," said Mr Salmond. "We would judge policies as they came forward from the minority administration of the day and we would seek to extend Scotland's influence"

Thats not forming alliances thats working on an issue by issue basis in a hung parliament and if things are in the interest of scotland then what is wrong with doing the best for your country? I know i wouldn't demand anything less.
81

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 09:49:26
Independence (82): "Fairfax, why would you choose to leave out "Chippy bunch, the Jocks"?"

I thought I'd already made my point. This description is unpleasant, but not jingoistic. More controversially, it's made fairly often by Scots about Scots -- I have often heard one of my Scottish cousins say "A well-balanced Scot: a chip on both shoulders!".
82

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:51:48
#90 Fairfax, old crocis, have you ever heard your Scottish cousins say:

"These republic scots people ought to shot, pure and simple.
Their plans are treason."
83

Publius,

London 10/05/2008 09:52:35
#64megz
Don't bet on it. The Tories are now having a modest revival in Scotland - a sort of ripple from their massive revival in the south. (For numbers see #21.) Come 2010 some Scottish wealthy types may well help to fund the Tories and a 'no' campaign on the referendum. Wealthy types like to be on the winning side. They won't want to alienate a Tory government in Westminster, because they want contracts and access to influence.
They also want an end to the posturing over a referendum. (Remember Sir Tom Hunter calling for a referendum to end speculation.) If it looks a no vote, they will join the yes side just to be among the winners.
84

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 09:52:49
Independence (82): "Think of Australia, who would also have to change her flag, as well as New Zealand.
These republic scots people ought to shot, pure and simple."

That's extremely unpleasant, but the poster claims to be Australian: it's not English jingoism.
85

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 09:55:51
#91 Crocus. doh!
86

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 10:05:20
# 93 Fairfax Feller, I fear you're stretching pedantry to it's most elastic conclusion.

The term 'Jingoism' is employed as a deprecatory term for the confident expressions of a culture that views its superiority over another culture as both self-evident and merited.

The Telegraph article and thread is full of jingoistic sentiments. Not quite sure why you'd choose to see it differently. Ho and indeed hum.
87

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:06:43
"But a motion may embarrass the SNP if they voted it down.":
BLLSHT:
It is the SNP that were, and still are, calling for a referendum; in the face of opposition from Labout,Libs & Tory.......and also the Wendy Party at the start:But the referendum is supported by the population of Scotland. The date the SNP set is 2010 and they set that before anyone else. All plans are set around that date; the arguments are focused for that date; the People of Scotland are considering their vote for that date and listening to the due discussion.........and now this jumping "Jelly Bean" has decided to suggest a referendum before all this happens:
The SNP are quite right to stick to Their original timetable and not worry if the "Scotsman" thinks it would be "embarrassing" not to bring it foreward.


88

megz,

Glasgow 10/05/2008 10:08:47
#92 i've not bet on it (now the odds have been slashed whats the point lol) i'm just hopeful.

Luckily labour are skint so we don't need to worry about them funding anything. But you raise a very valid point, its not just your average joe like me they need to convince but business and the wealthy (the LIT certainly wont do that and although i'd be better off under it i think they should have a rethink on that one). Its a tough job, and will take time but i'm hopeful they can do it.
89

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:09:53
"But a motion may embarrass the SNP if they voted it down.":
BLLSHT:
It is the SNP that were, and still are, calling for a referendum; in the face of opposition from Labout,Libs & Tory.......and also the Wendy Party at the start:But the referendum is supported by the population of Scotland. The date the SNP set is 2010 and they set that before anyone else. All plans are set around that date; the arguments are focused for that date; the People of Scotland are considering their vote for that date and listening to the due discussion.........and now this jumping "Jelly Bean" has decided to suggest a referendum before all this happens:
The SNP are quite right to stick to Their original timetable and not worry if the "Scotsman" thinks it would be "embarrassing" not to bring it foreward.


90

,

10/05/2008 10:10:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

Linda,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 10:13:10
Some idea of what unionist press will come up with in referendum campaign..
Daily Mail (which has hogher circulation in Scotland than Herald and Scotsman put together) comment to-day: "The future of our country is at stake"......
“ No wonder Gordon Brown, a man too timorous to call a general election, go to the launch of the Lisbon treaty or touch the Olympic torch, has shied away from this initiative and left Wendy swinging in the wind.
A year ago, from a Unionist perspective, a referendum made sense. Now, with the Unionist parties in total disarray, it could catapult Scotland into catastrophic separatism. There are huge issues at stake here. Oil is the most notoriously volatile base for any economy and is a finite resource.
Economically, it would be suicidal for Scotland to leave the UK. Our public services, jobs, national security, social fabric and the life opportunities of future generations are at risk from SNP adventurism.
Those considerations - not the self- interest of our petty-minded, bickering
politicians - are what really matter. “

The Daily Mail letters email address is letters@dailymail.co.uk
92

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 10:15:10
20. England's oil reserves are worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'.

Englands oil? £250 billion you say? Is that all together or per year?
93

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:16:37
2010 is not far away and the excitement is building already: Surely We will vote to take Our Nation back into Our Own Hands.
94

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:31:38
#100 Linda
Congratulations on getting #100:
If the prospect of Scottish independence scares You then close Your eyes in 2010 My Dear....and do the Patriotic thing and let's get Our Nation back under Our Own control.
It is an immoral World and it is reckless to DEFER Our judgement, as a Nation, into the hands of the corrupt Westminster Parlaiment; Who will do as they will in spite of Scotland:- And have done.
95

Truely English,

10/05/2008 10:36:40
99
Your information shows just how dependent Scotland is on Britain/England for her survival.
What you did not mention that we are one nation bound together by a common language (English) and a culture
which enables all of us to make our way throughout the world.
How can the Scots be so blind and deaf to all these benefits?

Finally, the Scots helped to create the British Empire and sustain it with the added bonus of spreading English to parts of the world that were uncivilised.

Can you imagine how difficult all our work would be today, had this priceless work not been done by the Scots in the British Colonies.
96

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 10:37:40
#103 getinnnnn

Oh dear... when I last looked, our nation was under our control.
97

Truely English,

10/05/2008 10:41:35
It really is time for Prime Minister Gordon Brown to hold an Election and let David Cameron be our new Prime Minister.

If there has to be a referendum then all of Britain should get the opportunity to vote on whether Scotland seperates or not.
98

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:43:00
#106
Tin Man:
Sounds good on the other side of that rainbow.
99

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:45:19
#106 Tin Man
In a way, You are right:
We were in control of giving Our control away.
100

getinnnn,

10/05/2008 10:49:04
#106 Tin Man
Read comment #107! This guy doesn't think much of letting Scots decide the destiny of Their Own Nation.
101

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 10:49:05
#109 getinnn

Sounds like you revel in pretending that you are a member of an oppressed minority. Have fun...
102

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 10/05/2008 10:51:30
If Wendy goes then where will the money come from for a leadership election? UK Labour are up to their necks in debt and with the latest opinion polls who will donate or lend them money? Scottish Labour might find difficulty getting anyone to donate to a leadership election after the mess Wendy made of her coronation. Does anyone have any ideas?
103

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:52:30
I''ll have great fun come 2010
104

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 10:53:48
Truely Stupid.
Various inane rambling posts written by a half wit.

Scotland will separate, when Scotland decides.

No one else has any right to determine our future.

Your British Empire is almost all gone and not a moment too soon.
105

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 10:56:37
#112 Macuistean
AM2 may be able to give Labour ........or even become Labour leader in Scotland....
106

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 11:01:26
#112 they could save money and draw straws, whoever gets the shortest one wins, and it is essentially what any new leader would be doing anyway.
107

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 11:01:48
I was just thinking what the leadership contest would be like. Jackie v His Lardship???

Bet the expenses would be frightening!!!!

It would be worth joining New Labour Sleaze just to get a vote!!! (only kidding)!!!!
108

snecked,

Argyll 10/05/2008 11:03:57
The new name I believe is Ubendy Alexander,
The new SNP slogan should be "Independence - Bring It On"

We only have to win once. It might not be a win in the first round but our eventual victory is assured. As one who joined the SNP when we were achieving 0.6% in Opinion Polls and partied for week when we saved a deposit in a parliamentary by-election you can imagine how I feel.
109

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:09:48
#112 Macuistean

I am sure that Brian Soutar would bung them GBP 500,000 to keep the busses de-regulated if he thought they had a chance of forming the executive.
110

kimba,

10/05/2008 11:10:50
100,Linda. Totally agree,but what's to be done to stop this wave of suicidal nationalism from destroying scotland.
111

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 10/05/2008 11:11:49
55 Calvinist

Truly laughable. I mean, come on man, are you THAT thick? I lived in Dunbartonshire, ruled for decades by the thickest, stupidest, most self serving numpties ever. Labour through and through. So stupid they declared themselves a nuclear-free zone with Europe's biggest pile of weapons on their patch - yet did they do anything to rid themselves of them? No, but they kept telling us all we were cool to keep voting for them because they hated the bluddy things as much as we did - so that was all right.

Fast forward to recent events. Labour Party in general, falling over themselves to apologise for the Iraq invasion, but hey, we are socialists ,we believe in the people. The people said "Not in our name" very loudly, but no, you people are too thick to understand this man, Saddam, is a threat to you and we need to act on your behalf to ensure your safety, so shut up plebs we're going in.

Now to the events of the past few days. Wendy makes a prize twit of herself on tv, makes policy on the hoof, then accuses the Government (Scottish one) of being feart. Feart of what? A raving lunatic who cannot make her mind up from one day to the next? Aye, let's all dumb down so we can accept this trash from the Labour party once more and be willing to vote for monkeys with red rosettes!!!

Those days have gone, Scotland has grown its own brains.
112

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 11:13:37
#111
The "Oppressed minority" (Scottish People)are having great fun: We are on a world roller coaster ride: We are really taking in the sights! Iraq, Afghanastan.....where next? What next? WHEEEEEEEEEEEE!
113

Doctor S,

10/05/2008 11:14:42
It would appear there is some out standing impermissibleness to be squared away yet:



"SCOTLAND’S police complaints watchdog has launched an investigation into Strathclyde’s handling of fraud allegations made against Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader.

Strathclyde fraud squad dropped the case after six weeks without interviewing Alexander or any of the key witnesses. Officers also failed to examine important financial documents.

It has now emerged that key documents were moved out of the country by an ally of Gordon Brown in the wake of The Sunday Times’s investigations.

Until the first story appeared in February, a complete seven-year run of the SIF’s financial records, including bank statements, had been held by Donald Storrie, the SIF chair at the time of the dinners.

After the initial press coverage, Baroness Mary Goudie contacted Storrie and asked for all the files to be sent to her home in London.

Goudie, 61, a former SIF secretary, is one of Alexander’s closest supporters and donors, and is also friendly with the prime minister and his wife.

Contacted by the Sunday Times, Goudie said: “I don’t wish to speak with you, goodbye,” then hung up."

Hey Nichol Stephen - twitch twitch - smell anything yet?
114

Alan Reid,

NZ 10/05/2008 11:14:50
105 Truly,
Scotland did do well out of the Union. That is true but that was a long time ago. In the last two hundred year at least, Scotland has been a source of troops for cannon fodder and a nice little country to ripp out it's resources.
I think it's time to change, and what happened last May is only a start.
115

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:14:53
#121 SeriouslyAmused

Unfortunately, that is exactly the same standard of politicians that we would get in an independent Scotland.
116

Alan Reid,

NZ 10/05/2008 11:17:02
121, spot on!
117

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:17:38
#122 getinnnn

The Iraq war would have happened whether Scotland was independent, or not. We would just have had even less say on events.
118

Doctor S,

10/05/2008 11:18:44
The Cat's Out the Bag

D'oh! The Grangemouth dispute has revealed more than just a problem with workers pensions. It has been reported that 700,000 barrels of oil are landed at Grangemouth every day, and that this is 40% of UK production. Wikipedia tells us the capacity of a barrel of oil is 159 litres, and that 46% of oil landed gets turned into petrol.

Purchasing a packet of fags to write on the back of gives us:

=51,198,000l of petrol produced daily at Grangemouth.

Last weekend, petrol cost £1.19/l at the pumps, of which 65% is tax:

=£39,601,653 government take from Grangemouth in tax on petrol consumption alone.

Bear in mind that this is just 40% of UK production, for one day, then the government takes £36,161,259,396 in tax on petrol consumption from UK production each year. This is larger than the entire Scottish budget, and 90% of UK oil is in Scottish waters. And the potential fields around Rockall have not yet been explored.

Not bad for a bunch of subsidy junkies.

I don't know how accurate these figures are*. But it does not include tax on the remaining 54% of the oil, or tax on gas production (although most UK gas is sourced in English waters).

No wonder unionists have lied for years about the oil. Perhaps they are doing us a favour? With such surpluses, fiscal independence would give Scottish ministers no incentive whatsoever to balance the books.

*a quick sense check can be done by working out how many litres are consumed by UK drivers - 22million cars, 10,000 miles average, 30miles/gallon average, 4.5l per gallon = 75,000,000,000l consumed by domestic drivers - works out at £58bn tax. So it seems we are in the right ball park.
119

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 11:21:58
#127
Lass say than none?
120

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 11:27:37
#127
Why would Scotland want to "Say" atall? We would be too busy with other things....
121

Calvinist,

10/05/2008 11:28:05
# 121 You don't get it do you. I agree with much of what you say but I am not prepared to subscribe to blind articles of faith. We need rational scrutiny of the arguments on both sides. The referendum is an opportunity for us. Let us not get it wrong!

PS I take your suggestion that I am thick as a complement. Maybe next time i'll evoke a rational reaction from you.
122

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:31:48
#130 getinnnn

Exactly. We would be too busy making service arrangements with organisations based abroad for tax collection, vehicle excise, broadcasting etc, etc, etc, but with little control over these organisations.
123

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 10/05/2008 11:42:50
Calvinist

Maybe I did not get your gist properly. If so I apologise.
124

It's me!,

10/05/2008 11:49:16
Watched Wendy Alexander on television. Her eyes tell me that she doesn't believe what she is saying.
125

John S,

10/05/2008 11:50:13
#128 Doctor S. Interesting to read what you wrote and I can now add another reason why Westminster is desperate to keep Scotland within the UK.
With 90% of UK oil in Scottish waters and 40% of UK production being landed at Grangemouth every day.
Plus the replacement trident missile system, the new nuclear power stations, Scottish water plus Scotland occupies less land per head of population than England with its expanding population, the UK place at the UN could be threatened, place on the G8, reduction in the number of seats in the EU Parliament etc
If Scotland has been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
It looks to me that Westminster doesn't want Scotland to be independent nor to have any devolved form of Government.
P.S. Scotland has 62.4% of the EU’s proven oil reserves.
126

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:51:38
#128 Doctor S

You need to divide your fuel-tax calculations by a factor of 10, assuming that a Scottish government applied the same tax on petrol, and assuming that Scotland accounts for about 10% of the petrol consumption you mention.

The other tax is on crude oil production, which you failed to mention.
127

European Scot,

10/05/2008 11:52:05
132 Tin Man

We would be too busy making service arrangements with organisations based abroad, for tax collection,vehicle excise, broadcasting etc, etc, etc, but with little control over these organisations."

Do the Irish have this problem ?
Don't they have their own broadcaster, vehicle excise, tax collection etc.
Do you imagine an Independent Scotland wouldn't ?

Your thinking is too UK centric, free it up a little.
128

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 11:56:44
#142 European Scot

The point is that we do have all these services, already working and in-place. You are proposing starting from scratch?
129

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 12:14:06
#144 Maverick

No, I'm not.
130

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 12:22:48
#149

Oh, no it's not...
131

European Scot,

10/05/2008 12:23:21
143 The Tin Man

As an Independent country I would expect Scotland's services to be independent.
Andorra, population less than 80,000, has its own car registration, its own services.
Why on earth wouldn't a country with a population of 5 million have the same.
The only reason you don't have a truly Scottish Broadcaster, is because broadcasting is reserved to Westminster. Imagine that.
As for starting from scratch, there are already offices, departments, etc. in Scotland connected with many current services, which would be of use to a new system.
It really is time to start thinking outside the confines of the UK.
132

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 12:29:11
#153 European Scot

I don't feel confined, at all. You are proposing a long, boring, expensive, and pointless excercise, presided-over by the wonderfully bright politicians that we have.
133

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 12:44:51
What I find puzzling about this whole debate is the implicit assumption of so many people that Scotland, uniquely among countries of a similar size, would not be able to govern herself - which, after all, is what countries usually do!
134

European Scot,

10/05/2008 12:52:07
154 The Tin Man

Long and boring ? Setting up an Independent country will never be that, quite the opposite.
As for your comments about the wonderfully bright politicians, taken at face value, you would seem to be in tune with the majority of Scots on that one. That is, if you are referring to Alex and the SNP.
However as the tone in your comment suggests you are a Unionist, let's accept the sarcasm of the "wonderfully bright politicians," and in that vein, take it as an 'endorsement' of Wendy and co.

155 Urban Guerrilla

Exactly !
135

Phil1,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 13:09:04
I am not sure if I have understood half of the inputs -it must have been one hell of a party!

Both Labour & SNP supporters should be thanking W Alexander because now we have SNP and Labour both wanting the same thing - a Referendum on Scottish Independence.I am sure the SNP won't vote the idea down because Labour want the Referendum a year earlier than them!

Why is that the idea of a Referendum that both party leaders now want is still causing so much abuse between two groups of political party supporters from the SNP & Labour.

Now I could understand it if the abuse was comng from Tories or Liberals but they are content to participate in the Commission they set up with Labour and await its outcome. Anyway they are far too polite to abuse people and they didn't get an invite to the party.

No I for one think a bit more talking amongst the SNP & Labour supporters and lot less personal abuse could improve politics in SCotland afterall we all live here together.
136

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:13:26
#156 European Scot

Salmond is an astute politician, but some other members of the executive are distinctly lacking. Remember that the people of Scotland are also represented by dreadful twits such as Wendy, Jamieson, and much, much worse, and what you see now is exactly what we would get, post independence.

I agree to differ on the excitement of setting up national organisations.
137

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 13:23:00
The bottom line here is that the Independence Referendum will take place in this parliament.

The SNP will be able to dictate when and now almost certainly the wording of the question.

By 2010 everyone will know the arguments.

If they are as sound as I think they are the SNP will have a mandate to negotiate Independence.

Life is simple...why complicate it?
138

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:24:24
#155 Urban Guerilla

I don't think anyone here is implying that Scotland would be unable to govern itself.
139

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 10/05/2008 13:27:46
I'd rather have Alex Salmond have a good working relationship with David Cameron and manage to secure that unpopular conservative policies are not imposed Scotland than have the Labour position where they would be imposed whatever. But getting Westmister policies good or bad is the Union dividend that the Unionists proclaim.
At the moment Alex Salmond does not have a good working relationship with Gordon Brown, who has not got over Labour losing in Scotland. What does this bad blood union dividend get us. No implementation of Barnett consequentials over prisons, holding back of Council Tax Benefit to thwart LIT, £30million of attendance allowance to scupper free care to the elderly. etc. The tories could be no worse to deal with than the present Labour lot who have waged over the last year a war of vidictiveness, uncooperation and petty spite.
140

European Scot,

10/05/2008 13:36:36
158 The Tin Man

I think you are probably right about some aspects of re-organisation, as not being exactly scintillating, but one National organisation that would excite, would be the Government of an Independent Scotland.
As for looking at 'dreadful twits,' you only have to cast your eyes along the benches at Westminster, for a truly wonderful collection.
Scotland hasn't cornered the market in that regard.
Salmond, Sturgeon, and Swinney are far more competent than Brown, Darling and Harman.
I'd suggest Scotland's SNP has the best team.
141

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 13:37:04
#160, why shouldn't we govern ourselves, then? Countries usually do!

Your own words at #158 don't seem very confident about Scotland's abilities:

> Salmond is an astute politician, but some other members of the executive are distinctly lacking. Remember that the people of Scotland are also represented by dreadful twits such as Wendy, Jamieson, and much, much worse, and what you see now is exactly what we would get, post independence. <
142

Chris42,

Glasgow 10/05/2008 13:38:17
161 Huntly loon

Totally agree.
143

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:41:11
#163 Urban

We do govern ourselves.
144

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 13:42:23
#165, no, we only have a devolved Parliament dealing with a range of domestic issues. All the big decisions are still made in Westminster.
145

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:44:27
#162 European Scot

Certainly agree with you on that one, but I would question your judgement about Swinney (I would be happier if he had a grasp of basic arithmetic).
146

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:45:50
#166 Urban

Last I heard, Scots get to vote for MP's in Westminster, too.
147

Chris42,

Glasgow 10/05/2008 13:48:01
#100 Linda

Re Daily Mail article, fear is the most potent weapon in the Unionist arsenal, and we will undoubtedly be subjected to the mother of all scare-mongering campaigns. With support for independence currently well short of 50%, achieving a sufficient shift in opinion in a climate of media negativity does look somewhat optimistic. I hope I am proved wrong.
148

kimba,

10/05/2008 13:49:19
153. What gives you the right to dictate what scotland or the rest of the uk does or doesn't do,as your title suggests you are in Europe,which has bu--er all to do with this situation.
149

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 13:49:44
#168, yes, 59 of them, I think, out of a total of 646. If that's governing ourselves, Nottinghamshire, Barnsley and Wigan govern themselves too.

Why are we less able to have our own sovereign Parliament than, say, Luxembourg or Slovakia?
150

kimba,

10/05/2008 13:56:25
Oh you poor delusional fools,the grass is rarely greener on the other side!
151

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 13:57:41
#171 Urban

...and Aberdeen governing itself, when it would only has a small percentage of MSP's.

Anyway, I am all for a much greater degree of local governance, and the current Scottish executive favours a system that is even more centralised than the system developed during Labour's rule in Westminster.
152

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 14:01:22
#171 Urban

I would be extremely wary of holding Slovakia up as a role-model, by the way, unless you like the idea of having to bribe doctors and nurses in order to get medical care.
153

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:12:14
#174, it would just be nice to think that Scotland wasn't inferior to all the other countries of a similar size round the world, and that we weren't so uniquely deficient that - more or less uniquely - we had to get another country to come and govern us!
154

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 14:16:37
#175 Urban

You might think that Scotland is inferior to other countries. I don't.

Scotland is not governed by another country - it is part of the UK.

155

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:18:36
#176, as I say, Scotland is governed by another country.

A great pity. It would be nice to be a normal country and run our own affairs.
156

,

10/05/2008 14:22:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:26:08
#179, I have no problem whatsoever with Scotland's being a member of the European Union on equal terms with all the other member countries. It's the obvious thing for a European nation to be.
158

kimba,

10/05/2008 14:27:44
Off topic,but well done Rangers,good result keep the union flag flying,the nats won't like it,but who gives a t-ss what they do or do not like!
159

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:28:22
Tim man, you really are living over the rainbow if you think Scotland can't produce quality politicians....just have a look at Westminster last century.

As for Labour in Holyrood they will improve dramatically once they have fully removed the shackles of Westminster.
160

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:34:49
#183, no, it just seems normal to me for a country to govern itself. After all, nearly all countries do.
161

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:36:38
#184, > Are you claiming that Finland has the same clout as Britain in the EU?
Do you imagine that Norway has the same influence as Britain in NATO?
Are you telling us that Ireland has the same muscle as Britain in the UN? <

Well, all of them have infinitely more clout than Scotland has, because as far as the EU, NATO and the UN are concerned, Scotland doesn't exist!

162

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 14:36:52
John S (140):"With 90% of UK oil in Scottish waters and 40% of UK production being landed at Grangemouth every day."

England has a GDP of roughly one trillion pounds per year, so oil is a few percent, at most. More importantly, the English still have to pay for the oil, whatever its origin.

"Plus the replacement trident missile system, the new nuclear power stations"

Scottish opposition to nuclear power and weapons is such that, whether independence occurs or not, these are clearly unwelcome in Scotland. This will be excellent for Plymouth and the English nuclear industry.

"Scottish water"

Oh please! England has lots of water, though its water companies sometimes have leaky infrastructure. This is a non-problem.

"the UK place at the UN could be threatened"

Possibly. However (i) that's likely to occur anyway, (ii) its only benefit is dubious prestige, and (iii) it might not occur: many nations think of Britain and England as synonymous anyway, and England does contain 90% of the GDP and population.

"place on the G8"

England's GDP, on its own, qualifies for the G8. In any case, the G8 is a dubious advantage.

"reduction in the number of seats in the EU Parliament"

A small reduction, certainly.

"If Scotland has been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?"

We used to believe we were one nation. I really don't think we still do.

"It looks to me that Westminster doesn't want Scotland to be independent nor to have any devolved form of Government."

Labour possibly doesn't. I think English Conservatives would take the view that if you're going to depart, then "it were better it were done quickly".

"P.S. Scotland has 62.4% of the EU’s proven oil reserves."

The EU still has to pay for the oil, in any case. Why do you believe this matters?
163

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 14:40:02
#182 Brian Hill

I am more interested in the here-and-now. Personallly, I think your rosy sysnopsis is a bit far-fetched. However, it would be nice if they all suddenly improved their performance because they were set-free to demonstrate abilities hitherto unknown.

It would also be nice if the population of Scotland woke up one morning to find that they were suddenly as good-looking as the Norwegians.
164

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 10/05/2008 14:46:37
What IS this seeming long-distance "love affair" betwixt Boy Wonder and Charles Linskaill. Curiouser and curiouser.

Wendy the Witch has lost all credibility and must be suffering from chronic PMS or her estrogen treatment for early menopause is not working.

She needs to be sent on a rest cure or heavily medicated. She is getting weirder looking and talking more nonsense day by day.

The men in white with straightjackets will be next for our Ms. Wendy.

165

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 14:46:58
Urban Guerrilla (175): "- more or less uniquely - we had to get another country to come and govern us!"

I support the end of the Union too, but your claim to uniqueness is false. For example, the states of the US have pooled their sovereignty too. Would you argue that Texas, say, should leave the US because it is merely represented according to population in Congress?
166

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 14:46:59
#187 Urban

You sound like another-one off on a pretend 'member of an oppressed minority' trip. Have fun...
167

inkster,

10/05/2008 14:47:29

I believe that Russia has found that owning oil is quite useful.

The question is not history, the question is the question due to be asked 2010.



168

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:47:44
#190, you're right. We're not going to agree on this. And were I a Breton I would be a convinced Breton nationalist, and were I a Bavarian I would be a convinced Bavarian nationalist. (They exist, BTW!)

(To be pedantic, Bavaria remained a separate kingdom with its own army, government, postal system, etc, until 1918. But that's really beside the point.)
169

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:49:38
#192, I certainly think Texas should be able to secede if she wanted to.
170

,

10/05/2008 14:50:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
171

John S,

10/05/2008 14:50:17
#188 -There has been lots of opportunities for Westminster to grant Scotland its independence,so why is the UK Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
Between 1889 and 1914 Parliament debated Scottish home rule 15 times, and introduced four bills on the subject. In 1913 a Home Rule Bill passed its second reading before being defeated at the final vote.
In response to this earlier home rule movement, the Government created the post of Secretary of State for Scotland in 1885 and made a cabinet position for Scotland in 1926, the so-called Scottish Office.
In 1932 The Scottish Daily Express ran a straw poll in 35,000 homes and found 113,000 people in favor of self government and only 5,000 opposed.
In 1968 the then Opposition Conservative Party led by Edward Heath - The Declaration of Perth. The declaration favored devolution and recommended that in Scotland there be created a directly elected body with legislative power.
Thatcher and her successor, John Major, sought to kill of the whole idea of devolving power to a parliament in Scotland.
Why hide the 1974 McCrone report ?
1979 the devolution referendum with that silly 40% rule
1997 why PR for the Scottish Parliament ?
It looks to me that Westminster doesn't want Scotland to be independent nor to have any form of devolved Government with the present Scottish Parliament a mistake by Westminster.
172

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:51:14
#196, we see it differently. I should be glad for Wales, England, etc, to be separately represented as independent nations if this is what they wanted.
173

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 14:53:48
i think wendy has been well shafted on this. Labour msps have even claimed to newspapers (anonymously ofcourse)that brown bottled it. I'm hoping she staysas she has been amazing(ly bad)and is worth it for the entertainment value. I reackon if she can come through doing something illegal then she should be able to weather this.
174

kimba,

10/05/2008 14:55:34
191. And pray tell what has this got to do with a canadian?
175

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 14:56:00
Urban Guerrilla (197): "#192, I certainly think Texas should be able to secede if she wanted to."

Agreed and, if I recall correctly, Texas had this right when it joined the Union. However, my point was that other nations have pooled sovereignty: Scotland's position is not unique.
176

inkster,

10/05/2008 14:56:15
She has blown the opposition 'coalition' to smithereens
177

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:56:53
#203, > But the question is: do we really want a Europe of fragmented, enfeebled micro-states? <

Yes! To coin a phrase, "Bring it on!"

178

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 14:58:18
#205, agreed, not unique. But I do think Scotland's position is anomalous and, from my own point of view, less than desirable.
179

inkster,

10/05/2008 14:59:07
Democracy is made up of enfeebled micro organisms thank God or we would all be Zimbabwe-ed
180

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 14:59:25
Urban Guerrilla (207): "Yes! To coin a phrase, "Bring it on!""

Fair enough. However, just to check your consistency, presumably you would equally support the fragmentation of Scotland after independence, if that were the democratic will?
181

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:01:11
#211, yes, if it were the democratic will. I'd regret it, of course, because for me Scotland is the natural and national unit. But how could I possibly argue otherwise?
182

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:02:40
#211, yes, if it were the democratic will. I'd regret it, of course, because for me Scotland is the natural and national unit, but it goes without saying that I'd accept the verdict of the people.
183

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:02:47
Or even worse Rangooned - bring on the UK General Election I say
184

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:03:10
Sorry for double post - I thought I'd lost the first one!
185

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:06:25
The Union of British Kingdoms is falling apart before our eyes and all we do is talk about Saxony
186

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:07:34
#216, if I were a Saxon I would be in favour of Saxon independence too!
187

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 15:09:23
#198 John S

In order to have a fishing industry, you need to have fish. If fishing was still a free-for-all, we would not even have the meagre stocks that still exist around the UK.
188

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:13:37
#217 Then you could have done something about it 60 years ago
189

John S,

10/05/2008 15:15:47
#188:Fairfax:Jack Straw -July 11, 2006: England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, amongst others things, of amplifying England’s power worldwide. And the reverse would certainly be true. A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England. Our voting power in the European Union would diminish. We’d slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council.
Notice when he said Our and We’d does he mean England ?
P.S. Scotland has 62.4% of the EU’s proven oil reserves."The EU still has to pay for the oil, in any case. Why do you believe this matters?
This is important because it is a secure oil supply within the EU.
Plus Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves,Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU.
190

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:17:02
#217, it would have been difficult for me. I wasn't born then.

Gott erhalte Sachsen!
191

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:17:42
The word Saxony has been mentioned more often that Wendy
192

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:18:20
I meant, #224, it would have been difficult for me. I wasn't born then!
193

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:18:44
I have thought about this situation. The Bolshi attitude is not so good, however, the substantive issue is a very very serious one. Wendy Alexander, I consider, does have to do the job of being a "party in opposition" because "democracy" requires this as she is elected to represent the people of Scotland, not the UK. This should not be a conflict of interest between Gordon Brown who should have the intelligence to ensure "democracy" exists in Scotland and he therefore should be more supportive of Wendy Alexander rather than detrimental to her. However, Gordon Brown got away with the Blair/Brown smiling knives scam and here we have it again - should we be checking the middle pages for the news that (a) isn't in the newspaper at all; or (b) the news that is not on the front pages because this crap is. Come On, treat decent hard working people with a degree of intelligence - next you will be doing "rally a nation have a war speeches" - we don't buy into this any more, nor the spin under Blair. If you have got nothing important to discuss that you or the SNP can come up with, then try this: www.lesleymcdade.blogspot.com. Either we exist in a democracy or we do not - being in "opposition politics" means you do have to challenge the government of the day, and the government of the day is on an "independence" sticky wicket. The debate "needs" to occur, sooner or later.

Other issues I consider would be interesting features of such a debate would be:

The apparent political inequality affecting the English under Devolution, ie Scots, Welsh and N Irish have their parliament but the English are using Westminster with the Scots having the ability to be involved in what should be English only issues - there needs to be a devolved English parliament and a UK parliament as a line management agenda to ensure the English have political equality. Likewise, there is also the West Lothian question and the North of Watford question comparable with the South of Watford que
194

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:20:50
#228 You mean Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
195

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:21:06
I have thought about this situation. The Bolshi attitude is not so good, however, the substantive issue is a very very serious one. Wendy Alexander, I consider, does have to do the job of being a "party in opposition" because "democracy" requires this as she is elected to represent the people of Scotland, not the UK. This should not be a conflict of interest between Gordon Brown who should have the intelligence to ensure "democracy" exists in Scotland and he therefore should be more supportive of Wendy Alexander rather than detrimental to her. However, Gordon Brown got away with the Blair/Brown smiling knives scam and here we have it again - should we be checking the middle pages for the news that (a) isn't in the newspaper at all; or (b) the news that is not on the front pages because this crap is. Come On, treat decent hard working people with a degree of intelligence - next you will be doing "rally a nation have a war speeches" - we don't buy into this any more, nor the spin under Blair. If you have got nothing important to discuss that you or the SNP can come up with, then try this: www.lesleymcdade.blogspot.com. Either we exist in a democracy or we do not - being in "opposition politics" means you do have to challenge the government of the day, and the government of the day is on an "independence" sticky wicket. The debate "needs" to occur, sooner or later.

Other issues I consider would be interesting features of such a debate would be:

The apparent political inequality affecting the English under Devolution, ie Scots, Welsh and N Irish have their parliament but the English are using Westminster with the Scots having the ability to be involved in what should be English only issues - there needs to be a devolved English parliament and a UK parliament as a line management agenda to ensure the English have political equality. Likewise, there is also the West Lothian question and the North of Watford question comparable with the South of Watford que
196

Lesley McDade,

10/05/2008 15:21:20
Likewise, there is also the West Lothian question and the North of Watford question comparable with the South of Watford question - why should we Scots get more from the UK, and the South of England enjoy greater prosperity because of London, than the middle or North of England. Our politicians should be engaged in sorting these issues out.

Furthermore, if Scotland were to go "independent" then the fiscal raising powers needs to be looked at significantly to see whether it is feasible given we are only 5,000,000+ population of which the populace is "ageing" and will move from benefit to burden over time. As Scotland also has a pension capital in Edinburgh how will that affect business if we go "independent", will companies want to move nearer to their customer base which is likely to be significantly greater in England with a population of approx 60 million.

Then there is the issue of Europe - do we go Scots, English, N Irish, Welsh individually in Europe or do we keep a UK strata and maintain a UK in Europe level.

These are the things that need to be debated - not the "bring it on" attitude which only serves to blur the issues and give us crap headlines around the world. Raise the stakes "substantively" and thereby raise the "intelligence" level in the debates. What is necessary as a party in opposition IN A DEMOCRACY is that a party in opposition is seen to deal substantively with the real issues affecting people in Scotland and impliedly affecting the rest of the UK - Gordon Brown PM can sort out the English political inequality if he likes which would be seen to be supportive of Wendy Alexander in opposition in Scotland. Rather than "bring it on" as a defocus issue concerning Wendy Alexander, can we have "intelligent debate" from now on relative to democracy existing in Scotland, independent or otherwise. No more nonsense please.

Regards.

Lesley
197

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:21:44
Likewise, there is also the West Lothian question and the North of Watford question comparable with the South of Watford question - why should we Scots get more from the UK, and the South of England enjoy greater prosperity because of London, than the middle or North of England. Our politicians should be engaged in sorting these issues out.

Furthermore, if Scotland were to go "independent" then the fiscal raising powers needs to be looked at significantly to see whether it is feasible given we are only 5,000,000+ population of which the populace is "ageing" and will move from benefit to burden over time. As Scotland also has a pension capital in Edinburgh how will that affect business if we go "independent", will companies want to move nearer to their customer base which is likely to be significantly greater in England with a population of approx 60 million.

Then there is the issue of Europe - do we go Scots, English, N Irish, Welsh individually in Europe or do we keep a UK strata and maintain a UK in Europe level.

These are the things that need to be debated - not the "bring it on" attitude which only serves to blur the issues and give us crap headlines around the world. Raise the stakes "substantively" and thereby raise the "intelligence" level in the debates. What is necessary as a party in opposition IN A DEMOCRACY is that a party in opposition is seen to deal substantively with the real issues affecting people in Scotland and impliedly affecting the rest of the UK - Gordon Brown PM can sort out the English political inequality if he likes which would be seen to be supportive of Wendy Alexander in opposition in Scotland. Rather than "bring it on" as a defocus issue concerning Wendy Alexander, can we have "intelligent debate" from now on relative to democracy existing in Scotland, independent or otherwise. No more nonsense please.

Regards.

Lesley
198

bill-alba,

fife 10/05/2008 15:24:25
Kimba on form..you have nothing to add so lets say that it has nothing to do with you because your a canadian?...
199

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 15:24:34
#227 inkster

Aren't most of Germany's oil reserves located off the coast of Saxony? Perhaps it would be good for them to split from the rest of Germany - they could become Europe's new Ireland, with Finnish social services, and Luxemburg petrol prices.
200

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:24:43
#230, no, I never mentioned Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, though I dare say that if I lived there I'd like to see it an independent Duchy again.

I was talking about Saxony itself.

BTW did you know that the Saxon National Anthem is sung to the tune of God Save The Queen?

Gott segne Sachsenland,
wo fest die Treue stand
in Sturm und Nacht!
Ew'ge Gerechtigkeit,
hoch überm Meer der Zeit,
die jedem Sturm gebeut,
schütz uns mit Macht!
201

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:25:38
#235, alas, Saxony's coastline is no longer than that of Bohemia.
202

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:25:55
Dear Lesley I totally agree with you - 'no more nonsense'

regards

Inkshter
203

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 10/05/2008 15:27:27
#236 - Hmmm, my Dresdner freunde has mentioned this.

Anyway,
WENDY MUST STAY. BROWN MUST STAY

And with Labour soaring in the polls, surely now is the time for a vote on the Union?
204

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 15:30:18
#237 Urban

Ahh.. sorry, my knowledge of German regions, and all that micro-kingdom stuff they had is a bit limited.
205

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 15:30:52
John S (225): "England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, amongst others things, of amplifying England’s power worldwide."

In 1707, England was already a major world power with a growing empire, whilst Scotland was (with respect) a fairly poor state with no overseas possessions. The primary reason England desired Union was the obvious possibility that Scotland might side with France.

"Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council."

England's trillion pound GDP qualifies for the G8 on its own. As for the permanent seat, I doubt we'd miss it. Recall, however, that Russia kept its seat despite its enormous reduction in power.

"This is important because it is a secure oil supply within the EU."

Consider your argument carefully here. You are, essentially, arguing that Scotland's oil would become EU oil. What happened to the slogan "It's Scotland's oil!"?
206

kimba,

10/05/2008 15:31:07
234. You could say that,but it wouldn't be true so why bother,as i'm half scottish it has a lot to do with me!
207

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 15:31:38
...But good luck to plucky little Saxony.
208

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:33:29
As one Saxon to another I couldn't agree more.
209

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/05/2008 15:33:44
I see that AM2 is back with his perfoming troupe. Their repetoire and routine have not changed; same old tired slapstick.

PRESS RELEASE. Embargoed to Wed. 14 May 2008.

The SG will include in Parliamentary business, for the period 05/2008-04/2009, a Bill for a Referendum in respect of Scottish Independence.
The proposed timetable for this Bill will be:

Introduction: Dec 2008
Parliamentary scutiny to be completed by Nov 2009
Vote: Dec 2009.

Referendum: late Spring 2010.

The above timetable is consistent with the proceedures of the Scottish Parliament, allowing for draughting, proper scrutiny and debate and the organisation of the Referendum itself.

It is to be hoped that the debate will be comprehensively covered in order that the people of Scotland will be properly informed.

The SG is confident that, with the stated support of the Labour Party, The Greens and the Independent, this Referendum Bill will be passed, thus giving the people of Scotland the right, for the first time ever, to choose their Constitutional future.

End.

Wendy really is a silly billy.
210

inkster,

10/05/2008 15:35:06
Well it almost got rid of Am2
211

European Scot,

10/05/2008 15:38:54
170 Kimba

" 153. What gives you the right to dictate what scotland or the rest of the uk does or doesn't do,as your title suggests you are in Europe,which has bu--er all to do with this situation."

I see you are being your usual charming self.
I have my life savings with a company in Edinburgh.
My birth certificate is also in Edinburgh.
I still pay taxes to your lovely UK taxman.
Next question.

I do not dictate, I leave that to Westminster.
If I want to support the Independence of my country I will, and I certainly won't require your permission to do so.
As for Europe, I would hope that it would have very much to do with the future of an Independent country like Scotland.
More to the point, is your birth certificate in Edinburgh ?
If not, what makes you think that you've got more right to comment on here, than I have ?
212

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 15:42:29
#237 Urban

No, most of Germany's oil & gas reserves really are located offshore Lower Saxony. I am shure it would make a super wee country.
213

The Moog,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 15:55:46
Google Wendy Alexander - pages from the uk and you'll notice this:

Scotsman.com News - Wendy Alexander quits
http://news.scotsman.com/newsfront.aspx?SectionID=7442

But the link leads to a blank page.

Is a resignation in the air?
214

kimba,

10/05/2008 15:58:50
249. I asked you what you and your ilk are so afraid of,why can't we have a referendum on independence NOW!
215

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 16:06:07
#252 The Moog

But who would be next in line for the throne? There are some real horrors in that shadow executive, and if they appointed Wendy, they will appoint anyone.
216

European Scot,

10/05/2008 16:11:14
251 Methalions

It depends, is each 'refresh' a Carlos Tercero ?
217

GM,

10/05/2008 16:15:03
@179 AM2

"Perhaps 70% of our laws stem not from Holyrood or Westminster but Brussels."

care to elaborate on that AM2?

As far as I'm concerned Scotland and England have legal systems that are 100's of years old (some of th eoldest in the world) and I can guarantee that it hasn't been usurped to the tune of 70% coming from the EU!!!

overdramatic spin on your part or just a lack of clarity in exactly what you were referring to?
218

Geomac 1,

Scotland 10/05/2008 16:20:13
I shudder at the thought of the future of my country resting in the hands of these numpties at Holyrood
219

European Scot,

10/05/2008 16:21:58
259 Geomac 1

Shudder even more at the numpties in Westminster.
220

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 10/05/2008 16:37:22
253 kimba: "I asked you what you and your ilk are so afraid of, why can't we have a referendum on independence NOW?"

I'd have thought it was obvious. If we have a referendum after the Tories come to power at Westminster, a significant proportion of waverers will vote for independence, thereby increasing the chances of a YES vote. That's also the reason why Labour want a referendum BEFORE the next general election.

Both sides want the vote to take place at a time of their choosing for purely tactical reasons, and both sides pretend otherwise. No surprise there. The Nationalist argument carries more force, however, as they've consistently campaigned for a referendum and were elected on a manifesto which gave a specific timescale. Labour, on the other hand, have loudly and consistently OPPOSED a referendum, only to carry out a spectacular U-turn a few days after the party's electoral collapse south of the border made it clear that the Tories will form the next UK Government. Their "Referendum Now!" call is therefore far more transparent and carries much less moral authority.
221

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 10/05/2008 16:51:33
This is all mince, which brings me nicely to our kind and considerate neighbours who dwell at our great expense in EU HQ, and who know everything there is to know about what is good for us, and what is bad for us.

There follows a short message for you folks.

LEAVE OUR MINCE ALONE, AND LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR SOMETHING WITH WHICH TO MEDDLE.
222

Truely English,

10/05/2008 16:57:00
135
We are all part of the Union an each area of Britain should be given the opportunity to voice whether or not Scotland should go away on its own.

This is only natural as we are all the one and same nation under the Monarchy of Great Btritain speaking one common language, culture and identity which the Scottish Government uses and promotes on each and every occassion.

One further point; lots of cricket is played around Scotland as it is in England. Indeed it was the Scots who invented the game.
223

European Scot,

10/05/2008 17:04:06
Do like the advert for the Evening News and the Sony TV, just over the picture of Wendy Alexander in the Scottish Parliament, where it states:-
"How Low Can You Go ?
Talk about product placement.
224

GM,

10/05/2008 17:09:29
Long answer Am2 - but all I needed you to say was -

'sorry - I meant 70% since we joined the EU'...
225

James.com,

Clifton 10/05/2008 17:14:43
The "West Lothian" Question has nothing to do with Scotland getting more or less than England,but that an MP from a Scottish seat votes and decides matters that affect England only (ie. matters reserved for the Scottish Parl. in Scotland.)
226

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:17:13
#268 GM

I doesn't really matter. The laws governing Scotland would be unchanged by independence.
227

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:20:24
#270 James.com

I would agree that the situation is unfair. However, it does suit the Labour party down to the ground. We wold have to wait for the Conservatives for the issue to be resolved.
228

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:25:49
267,269,271

Oh dear, Unionist confusion and illogicality is rife I see. Hardly surprising given the total disarray of the past week.

So Unionists argue that as a member state of the EU Scotland would have no substantive control over laws, but argue that the UK, as a member state of the EU does, and represents Scotland's interests. Which is it?

271 - AN independent Scotland would have control of social security, pensions, immigration, macro economic policy, corporate taxation, fiscal policy including income tax, defence, foreign affairs - all things Scotland does not control at present. Unless you are saying that by dint of EU membership the UK does not have any significant control of these itself at present?
229

European Scot,

10/05/2008 17:25:50
271 The Tin Man

Well there you go, that's one area of Administration that won't need to be changed, along with Education.
What's with a few driving licences and a new Sate Television service !
230

Truely English,

10/05/2008 17:26:24
Is the Education system in Scotland si dire that the Prime Minister Gordon Brown is Educating his children in London.
On the other hand, he may be concerned at just how strong their Scottish-English accent may become. Does anyone know why this choice was made.
231

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:28:32
267,269,271

Oh dear, Unionist confusion and illogicality is rife I see. Hardly surprising given the total disarray of the past week.

So Unionists argue that as a member state of the EU Scotland would have no substantive control over laws, but argue that the UK, as a member state of the EU does, and represents Scotland's interests. Which is it?

271 - AN independent Scotland would have control of social security, pensions, immigration, macro economic policy, corporate taxation, fiscal policy including income tax, defence, foreign affairs - all things Scotland does not control at present. Unless you are saying that by dint of EU membership the UK does not have any significant control of these itself at present?
232

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:35:44
#273 Ayrshire

All I said was that the last I heard, Scotland already has a seperate legal system.

The people of Scotland have as much control over fiscal and economic policy as the people of any other part of the UK. I never mentioned the EU, but the same EU legislation would apply, independence or no independence.

233

Doctor S,

10/05/2008 17:36:50
#241. Predictably generous with the actuality regarding England at the time of the Union.


Immigration records for that time show that of all the arrivals in the American continent the Scots were the better educated and healthiest people they had to deal with.


Scotland had a thriving maritime trade with the Baltic and Scandinavian nations and states. The union with England caused that trade and the remains of her fleet to be lost as part of the deal. England confiscated the fleet.


The one deciding factor that forced Scotland into the union was the bankruptcy of the nobility due to the failed Darien venture, a failure that was guaranteed by Englands blockading and interfering on the high seas.


The Scottish nobility were bought, debts were dissolved and the deal was done.


Scotland became and has remained, (compared to England,) a much poorer nation as a result of the English engineered union. Please spare us your patronising pink washing of history.
234

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 17:37:31
#275 Truely Stupid

Pity you didn't get an education!
235

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:39:21
278. Tin Man, Can you explain why the UK throughout the end 80s and 90s had a policy of high interest rates which damaged Scotland;s industry and economy?

236

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:39:44
#276 Ayrshire

Do you know that you have an elected member of the European Parliament? Why don't you take your concerns up with him / her.
237

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:43:53
282. Tin Man, how odd, I though t I saw you pontificating on these matters above, but now you suddenly do not see this as a forum for discussion?

You said at 278 that Scotland controlled its laws etc. Can you tell me what Scottish control was exerted over the 10p tax rate abolition given 70% of members of the Scottish Parliament belong to parties which opposed that?

238

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:45:23
#281 Ayrshire

Why don't you replace 'Scotland's industry' with 'the UK's industry'. No Ravenscraig, little shipbuilding, no more car manufacturing, and funnily enough Scotland is doing pretty well. Why is that?
239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:46:34
277. AM2

whatever sovereignty an independent Scottish government chooses to share with the EU or other international organisation is sovereignty ultimately retained as it can withdraw from such - and is sovereignty currently denied to Scotland by the Union as Scotland cannot choose either way.
240

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 17:48:09
#283 Ayrshire

If you want to re-distribute wealth to the low-paid, don't join the SNP.
241

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:48:23
284. Tin Man

you did not answer the question I notice. I asked why the UK had a high interest rate policy through the end 80s and 90s which damaged Scotland. The answer of course was to address economic problems such an inflationary credut boom - as Scotland never had such a problem and was damaged by the "solution" surely you must agree this is an area where having Scottish control over fiscal and economic policy would have been better for Scotland?
242

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 17:48:38
284. Tin Man

you did not answer the question I notice. I asked why the UK had a high interest rate policy through the end 80s and 90s which damaged Scotland. The answer of course was to address economic problems such an inflationary credut boom - as Scotland never had such a problem and was damaged by the "solution" surely you must agree this is an area where having Scottish control over fiscal and economic policy would have been better for Scotland?
243

Endangeredscot,

Here, here 10/05/2008 17:49:22
AM2,Scotland,UK~~

Ayrshire Scot seemed to be debating in an adult manner to me.
244

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 17:53:01
John S (279): "Immigration records for that time show that of all the arrivals in the American continent the Scots . . ."

Which time? Were there immigration records recording health in the 13 Colonies in 1707?

"The union with England caused that trade and the remains of her fleet to be lost as part of the deal."

However it also provided access to the large and rapidly growing English Empire.

"The one deciding factor that forced Scotland into the union was the bankruptcy of the nobility due to the failed Darien venture"

Given the stupidity of the Darien Scheme, it's fairly likely that it would have failed anyway: the massive loss of Scottish life due to disease was not due to the English.

"a failure that was guaranteed by Englands blockading and interfering on the high seas."

That's correct: England decided it wasn't in its interest and acted accordingly. Why should England aid a rival state? What possible reason was there for Scotland to believe an independent state would act in this way?

"Scotland became and has remained, (compared to England,) a much poorer nation as a result of the English engineered union."

It became, in 1707, a richer nation than it would have been otherwise, precisely because of the money provided by England -- as you mention, Scotland was facing bankruptcy. If Scotland had remained independent, then it would have lost all access to English controlled markets: do you truly believe that would have led to a richer Scotland?
245

Active Sassenach,

Luton, England 10/05/2008 17:57:04
Dear Bendy Wendy

My Standard Life pension policy says that the proceeds are payable in Sterling in England - I think.

Bring it on. Open an FOS case for the arbitration of a fair maturity value if you separate Scotland and make it impossible for Standard Life to work out where its actuarial assumptions are. Your policy is to increase life expectancy with free old age care. Broon's is not.

Yours sincerely
Active Sassenach
CU at EIC 19.05.08, 11h00 hrs BST.
246

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 18:00:12
Ayrshire Scot (288): "The answer of course was to address economic problems such an inflationary credut boom - as Scotland never had such a problem"

That's not quite correct: the inflation rate of the Pound Sterling affected the whole UK. Whilst the nominal rate was high in the 1980s and early 1990s, the inflation rate was also high at those times: the real rate was often fairly low.

That said, I agree with your main point that, in a economy dominated by England, fiscal decisions will be weighted towards the dominant block. The same would be true if Scotland joined the Euro following independence of course. It's worth remembering that John Major's debacle in 1992 was ultimately caused by the Bundesbank deciding to increase interest rates -- similar problems are being caused in Spain and Italy now by the ECB.
247

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:02:56
#288 Ayrshire

Financial services play a strong role in the Scottish economy. Do you think that a 'high interest rate policy' hurt that part of the economy? The industry's that I refered to were unsustainable on the world market at that time, never mind what interest-rate policy was on the go.
248

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:09:09
294. AM2

You seek to spin, like you did with your 70% of laws derived from EU argument.

At present Scotland cannot choose to exercise sovereignty, over EU laws or over income tax. Were Scotland independent, it could choose to share sovereignty with the EU or vary income tax bands and allowances - thus my "Scotland cannot choose either way" is acccurate and reflects the fact that we are not an independent state.

Oppressed/ repressed ? No, of course not. I was merely pointing out the huge lack of powers, and sovereign power, that Scotland has in the Union.
249

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:11:48
293. Tin Man

again I note you fail to answer my question. No one disagrees that a high interest rate policy was totally unsuitable for the Scottish economy throughout the end 80s and 90s. Yet we had one. I ask again, would it not have been better for Scotland not to have to endure an economic "cure" for an illness it never had?

With regard to the EU, perhaps your or AM2 could the beefit to Scotland of these two events:

1. Uk government papers identifying the UK's willingness to "sacrifice" the Scottish fishing industry to further UK EU negotiations?
2. The UK opposing objective 1 status for ERDF for the Highlands of Scotland?
250

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:15:30
295. Yes. The interest rates of the Euro zone have been, on average, lower over the life of the Euro than UK interest rates. As the Scottish economy benefits from such as is hurt by high interest rates, the experience of the Euro zone to date suggests it would have been better for Scotland.

I would also note that the UK currency has been subject to speculative attack and collapse over the past 2 decades, leading to massive sales of gold reserves, during the EMS/EMU period. Petro currencies have been less vulnerable to speculative attack and collapse.
251

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:15:39
#296 Ayrshire

At the moment, the people of Scotland have more powers within the UK than people in England.

As you are so keen on interest rates, do you think that it would be better to set rates in Scotland (in which case we would need a 'Scottish Pound / Dollar / Whatever', better to stick with Sterling, or go with the Euro, and have monetary policy based in Germany?

252

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:18:00
298. AM2

I was merely arguing that at present Scotland has zero sovereignty, zero control over EU policy and little effective control over UK policy - as evidenced by high interest rates, the UK "sacrificing" Scottish fishing according to UK government papers, and the UK opposing objective 1 ERDF status for the Highlands.

With independence Scotland will have sovereignty and may choose to share it with the EU or other organisations. Nothing ridiculous in that statement of fact.
253

Truely English,

10/05/2008 18:20:39
281
Maybe, Gordon Brown should send his children to Inverness, where we are told the best English speakers in the world come from, or is that just a step to far for both parents.
254

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:20:58
300. AS I answered AM2 above, the interest rates and monetary polciy of the Euro zone would have been better for Scotland than the last 20 years of UK policy which has actively damaged Scotland.

I also pointed out that Sterling has not actually been very stable - having suffered collapse out of the ERM/ EMS. An independent Scotland, had it existed in 92/93 and had it had an independent currency would probably have been less vulnerable to that catastrophic speculative collapse.
255

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:21:56
300. Tin Man

I note you yet again do not answer on the UK high interest rate policy of the 80s/90s which damaged Scotland.
256

Nikostratos,

10/05/2008 18:24:58
296 Ayrshire Scot™


"Were Scotland independent, it could choose to share sovereignty with the EU"

Ayrshire are you suggesting Scotland could decide not to share 'sovereignty' with th E.U if so you are wildly off the mark............Given the snp commitment to staying within the E.U.

Lets be honest Scotland outside the E.U is a dead duck Alex I'M sure would agree and the majority of snp msps.

I suspect you want the 'sovereignty' that was given (stolen) 300 years ago unfortunately thats not on offer
the worlds moved on........



257

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:25:11
#303 Ayrshire

Maybe, but that's merely coincidence. European monetary policy would not be specifically set to advantage an independent Scotland - the specific intrests of Scotland would have very, very little to do with it.
258

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:27:26
#304 Ayrshire

It was done to hurt Scotland, and you in particular.
259

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:27:56
305. Niko

I believe the SNP would put Scottish membership of the EU to the people of Scotland, recognising as they do that sovereignty in Scotland comes from the people, not the "Monarch in parliament" model of sovereignty that UK Labour embrace.

So, as is usual, you are just wrong.
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:30:37
306/ 307. Well, I think all who read this can see you have lost that particular argument. UK monetary policy did indeed hurt Scotland - I doubt Scotland figured so high in the considerations for this to have been "deliberate" as you snear, having lost the points of substance. So it would indeed have been better for Scotland not to have had monetary policy set by Westminster. And the Euro zone monetary policy would have benefited Scotland over the UK monetary policy.
261

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:30:51
#308 Ayrshire

I doubt that very much. If the SNP had a policy to hold a referendum on EU membership, they would have told someone. But I understand they do want to keep the queen, for some reason.
262

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:32:23
309. AM2 - spinning now like a rotary clothes line in a high wind.

Euro zone interest rates have been lower than UK interest rates, for more months or more quarters, over the life of the Euro.

Thus - "On average" Euro zone interest rates are indeed lower than Uk interest rates.

Care to deny it?

263

MartinR,

Inverness 10/05/2008 18:34:14
I hate to rain on your parade, Ayrshire, but the 'independence' that Salmond and co envisage is actually a lot closer to the rest of the UK than you think; we'd continue to have the Queen as the head of state (so she would continue to hold sovereignty, unlike the point you make in 308). Moreover, joining the euro is also unlikely, 60% of Scotland's trade is with England, outside the eurozone and thus hitting our manufacturing base, services sector and so on.
264

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 18:35:14
#310 Ayrshire

Yes, you are the winner. Well done. European monetary policy would have benefitted some aspects of the Scottish economy, by coincidence.
265

Richardinho,

10/05/2008 18:45:48
Pity I'm not a betting man-cause I would be willing to bet that in 12 months time there's no chance of Wendy still being labour leader at holyrood. Maybe you wouldn't get great odds on that anyway.

As Gordon Brewer pointed out very well, Labour have handed the SNP the cards, the card table and the casino. The SNP can easily say that it is they who are being responsible by sticking to their course as written in their manifesto of having a referendum in 2010. And when that comes around, without yet another U-turn, Labour will have no choice but to go along with that.
266

Richardinho,

10/05/2008 18:46:46
It wouldn't suprise me if Labour did perform yet another U-turn on this issue-but if so, they would have to get rid of the hapless Wendy Alexander.
267

Jimmy the Pie,

10/05/2008 18:47:17
Which Sunday Paper will break the "Red Wendy resigns to spend more time with her deprived kids" story????
268

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 18:49:45
316. AM2

glad to see you concede the point that Euro zone interest rates would have been better for Scotland.

314. Martin - I dont follow your thinking. How does having the QUeen as head of state or having 60% of our trade with the remnant UK change anything?
269

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:07:14
325. Dear dear, AM2, are you saying that higher interest rates were better for Scotland than lower interest rates?

I note you did not comment on the benefits to Scotland of having the Uk government "sacrifice" our fisihing industry, in the words of their own papers on EU negotiation, or in opposing objective 1 ERDF status for the highlands.
270

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:12:10
327. AM2

tut tut. Not much of an argument there, having tried to obduscate on Euro zone interest rates. You are exposed as a clueless spinner.
271

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 19:17:17
#320 my money would be on paul hutcheon in the sunday herald. It really doesn't matter what happens here. Either she goes and everyone says 'aha! Proof SLab is controlled from london' if she stays and the rift deepens then everyone will say 'brown has lost control of his party' Its kind of a lose/lose situation. I hope she stays tho she's doing a super job putting forward the case for independence.
272

The Tin Man,

10/05/2008 19:18:30
#321 Ayrshire

If business is conducted between Scottish and English company's in £ sterling, it is a level playing field. If the same business is conducted where one company transacts in Euros, and another in Pounds, the company's relative competitiveness is influenced by the exchange rate. However, life is too short for this drivel. Exchange rates and intrest rates are dictated by the world market to a greater extent than central banks, and the whole discussion is direly duff.
273

kimba,

10/05/2008 19:18:35
255.BASICALLY YOU DON'T HAVE A ANSWER!
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:19:22
330. Oh AM2 you do amuse me. You are demanding I answer some irrelevance at 309 before answering the questions I posed at 297? Clearly your grasp on counting is as firm as your acquaintance with economics.
275

The Tin Man,

10/05/2008 19:21:29
#326 Ayrshire

In order to have a fishing industry, the presence of fish would be handy.
276

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 19:28:14
#326 Ayrshire

A you may remember that a fully-grown mackrel is well over 2-1/2' long. When is the last time you saw one?
277

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 19:33:24
Methalions

I do believe there is something fishy going on.
278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:34:24
343. AM2

we know that UK policy and SNP policy do not coincide. What I asked about was why UK policy was diametrically opposed to the interests of the Scottish fishing industry and the highlands of Scotland, and how this fits with you position that the UK represents Scotland's interests in th EU. I see no answer in your latest missive.
279

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 19:41:36
#344 Col Blimp

If you happen to have been born in Scotland, you are, by default, Scottish. Or are you saying that someone is only Scottish if they voted for the SNP last time round? Perhaps you should burn your passport.

Your biblical misrepresentation is mind-blimping.
280

Truely English,

10/05/2008 19:46:23
344
There is no difference between the Scots and the British.
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:48:14
350. AM2

is the "sacrifice" of the Scottish fishing industry not diametrically opposed to the interests of that industry?

Was opposing objective 1 ERDF status for the highlands not diametrically opposed to the interests in terms of securing ERDF funding for the highlands?

Please explain why sacrificing Scottish fishing and opposing ERDF funding was beneficial?
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:48:56
352. Then surely you mean there is no difference between the British?
283

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 19:50:53
#346 Ayrshire Scot
Never mind: After We vote for Independence; these four or five staunch Unionists.....maybe if they want to stay North of the border and remain in the Union; We could give them a little area to stay....ummmmmm....Rockall maybe: Then everybody happy egh? .......What a waste of Rockall though......
284

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 19:52:20
...Of course there are no trawlers out of Hull, Lowestoft, Grimsby, and Fleetwood because fishing is an intrinsically Scottish occupation, and fish stocks have plummeted due to the wrong type of government...
285

European Scot,

10/05/2008 19:52:56
347 AM2

Possibly this question of 'Britishness' should be addressed to that element of Rangers football supporters, who, when in Europe, do insist on parading around in front of large Union flags. Do they not feel Scottish as well ?
I'd always thought Ibrox was in Glasgow, and Glasgow was in Scotland.
Possibly a Scottish flag alongside, might have been reasonable ?
There were similar scenes recently with Manchester United fans in Europe flying their club's colours, but alongside these, was a flag of St George, which seems most appropriate really, Manchester being in England after all.
Of course looking at your own ID, which I note you have modified from the original AM2, Glasgow, UK, to AM2, Scotland, UK, well perhaps we may not get a very sympathetic response to this one.
I mean AM2, Glasgow, Scotland, would seem more appropriate in most people's eyes, but obviously not in yours !
286

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 19:56:04
356. You miss the point. Fishing is by far a larger part of the Scottish economy than it is the English, and is vital to, amongst other places the North east of Scotland.

The UK could have protected the fishing industry better but chose not to do so, "sacrificing" it for other areas of negotiation. An independent Scottish government would never have so acted to damage parts of Scotland. Similarly, the UK chose a high interest rate policy in the 80s and 90s to meet the needs of the South-East, at the expense of Scotland. These are two examples of the Union acting against Scottish interests.
287

Joe Neilson,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 19:57:15
Oh dear

I am afraid Wendy has made it personal. This is the only explanation I can come up with that makes any sense. Wendy has become so frustrated by her inability to 'nail' Alec and improve hers standing in the public eye, that she has just lashed out in a fit of temper. Wendy is soo angry so so frustrated that she has snapped. How else can we explain how this brilliant woman has left herself high and dry?
288

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 19:59:36
#353 Ayrshire Scot

What is 'ERDF' by the way? I though EU funding for all those stretches of EU-funded super-highway in the Highlands stopped due the the regions relative prosperity? Probably building motorways in Poland instead, now.
289

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/05/2008 19:59:41
AMtwa, you do seem different tonight.

If I may refer you to one of your earlier posts (I think it was 190) you were trying to infer something by stating that Bavaria was only incorporated into Germany in 1871. Think you will find that was the year Bismarck created the 2nd German Reich by uniting the German states into a federation from the previous confederation.

The remarkable thing about the union of German states is that a Kaiser was established, the dominant imperial Prussia grew ever smaller, the state was called Germany throughout the world, the language is German and the national bank became the Bank of Germany.

You see, AMtwa, Germany is a union.
290

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:01:03
#351 AM2 How on earth does someone foist Scottishness on a person?

"But it's the proto-fascistic views of so many of their supporters/activists which might lead some to suspect that their admirable policy is little but a "politically correct" cover for their true feelings."

Quite right AM2 so many of us Independence supporters are proto-fascistic. Unlike this British Unionist below.

Someone you know perhaps?

http://tinyurl.com/6xn722

291

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:01:28
359. One Labour MP was quoted as saying "she is completely off her head".
292

Truely English,

10/05/2008 20:04:58
354
Alright then there is no difference between the Scots and the English.
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:05:56
361. AM2

I refer to UK government papers on EU negotiation which use the word "expendable" to describe Scottish fisihing in the context of EU negotiations. I also refer to the fact the UK government carried out no assessment on the impact on the industry of terms of EU entry.

Now please explain why the UK government judging a vital Scottish indsutry as being expendable fits with your position that the UK represents Scotland's interest in Europe?
294

getinnnn,

Scotland 10/05/2008 20:06:01
Maybe these few Unionist posters and the true red white and blue Rangers fans could stay in Ibrox stadium and We could have that as the bit of Scotland that remains in the Union.....and when the elusive Weapons of Mass Destruction are taken out then this would be the only Scottish target for them.
295

Hamish Scott,

10/05/2008 20:13:57
Good news - the Scottish Labour executive have backed Wendy Alexander, they have now committed the whole party in Scotland to an independence referendum. With Gordon Brown leaving the issue to Scottish Labour and standing orders of Holyrood preventing the unionists from launching their own this leaves Scottish Labour supporting the SNP's 2010 referendum. You could not make this up. Alex Salmond must be buying lottery tickets.
296

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:13:59
A study of seven opinion polls shows support for Independence has gone up from 27 per cent last May to 41 per cent this month, while opposition to Scotland going it alone has dropped from 47 per cent to 40.
The SNP claim the results prove they are successfully building a case for Independence with the public.
SNP business convener Angus Robertson MP said the analysis shows Scots are swinging behind Independence

As the little labour girl said "Bring it on"
297

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/05/2008 20:14:19
371, AMtwa.

I fear my point at 363 was too subtle for you to comprehend. Could you read it again please, only this time read it and compare it to the union of Great Britain.
298

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 20:17:49
#358 Ayrshire Scot

The fishing industry was vital to the NE of Scotland in 1973. It is not quite vital to the NE of Scotland in 2008, far from it. It can't be, because there is nothing like the same amount of fish to catch. This situation has very little to do with the government, and everything to do with the act of fishing. In 1973 the argument about who fished what ended 10 miles from the tide-line, and you can see the results.
299

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:19:11
#302 Truly English

Rough on England?
England is a nation of "overweight, binge-drinking reality TV addicts", according to the latest edition of a top travel guide.
The new edition of the Rough Guide to England accuses the English of being quarrelsome, contradictory and "obsessed with toffs and C-list celebrities
The guide lampoons the national obsession with the weather, saying: "A two-day cold snap is discussed as if it were the onset of a new Ice Age and a week above 25 degrees starts rumours of a drought."
It also highlights contradictions, pointing out: "It's a nation that prides itself on its patriotism - yet has a Scottish prime minister, an Italian football coach and a Greek royal consort."
The English are "the most contradictory people imaginable", the book says, adding: "However long you spend in the country you'll never figure them out".

What do you have to say then? Big mouth!!
300

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:20:16
#376 Err you in your more lucid moments?
301

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/05/2008 20:23:40
I reckon there have been 3 different AMtwas on here today.
302

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:25:36
372.

Cabinet papers (Scottish Office Memo - 9.11.70) as reported in the Sunday Telegraph 14th Jan 01 states of the fishing industry "which in the wider context must be regarded as expendable"

303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:29:20
382. What is this third option you keep quoting that people endorsed in opinion polls AM2, and which political party which backs a referendum wants to include the Calman commission anyway? Talk about total irrelevance. 93 MSPs back a straight yes/ no vote on independence - great isn't it?
304

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:32:09
#388 Ayrshire Scot Hoos poos etcerera, I'm truly chuffed that Duncan McNeil, chairman of the Labour group at Holyrood, said: "No one in the room had any complaints about the decision that has been taken and we are now in a position where, as a group, we will not vote down any Referendum Bill that comes into the Parliament."

Bet chuckles McNeil can't wait for the referendum...
305

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:34:38
389. Wonderful it is indeed. And it gets better - I see McCletchie, having pondered the matter in a taxi no doubt, now thinks only the SNP proposed wording is within the competence of the parliament... hoos poos indeed, AM2 needs to look more to the night sky and less to Jackie Baillie for inspiration....
306

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:35:41
AM2,Scotland,UK 10/05/2008 20:25:59
#379 Berero

Nice anti-English rant. Tasteful. That'll really help your cause.

Just posting what i read on the net by a UK publisher, not my words..

Now Berero says..Using the same format as the SNP is proposing to put in a referendum which is to ask the Scots whether they agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
TNS System Three March 2008
I agree: 41% - I do not agree: 40%
Scottish Daily - Express Jan 2008
I agree: 27% - I do not agree: 57%
TNS System Three Dec 2007
I agree: 40% - I do not agree: 44%
TNS System Three poll Aug 2007
I agree: 35% - I do not agree: 50%

Between Aug 2007 and March 2008 the I agree average is 35.75%, remove the SDE and the I agree average is 38.6%.
307

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/05/2008 20:36:15
387, AMtwa

So you come up with that little gem of a truth which I pasted a long time ago rather than lend your UUendyesque intellect towards comparing the origins of the German union to the origins of the British union?
308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:36:40
391. LOL! AM2 - it is a Scottish Office memo - are you saying then the UK government did not say the Scottish fishing industry was expendable? Are you saying that even the UK government did not know the relatively higher importance of fishing to Scotland?

Oh dear, poor the AM2, bad night.
309

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:36:50
#392 Ah Jackie the Hutt, WENDYs personal eclipse.
310

Nikostratos,

10/05/2008 20:38:27
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/



On YouGov’s normal tracker question on how people would vote in a referendum on Scottish independence 59% said they would support the status quo, with 25% saying they would vote for independence. As we’ve discussed here before, different ways of asking this question show markedly different results, and YouGov’s question which specifies that voting no still retains the Scottish Parliament normally results in less support for independence, but compared to previous YouGov/Telegraph polls using the same wording, the balance of opinion is moving away from independence.


" the balance of opinion is moving away from independence."
311

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 20:40:24
#385 Col Blimp

Ciao baby, ciao baby, ciao.


Someone's nationality is rarely a matter of choice, as your unfortunate grandparents were all too aware. Your comments about different nationalities for unionists and seperatists is really not very nice.
312

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:41:26
#398

AM2 Never wrong since 1707.


313

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:41:44
#390 Traquir,Alba

Well thanks for that.. You see the labour list msp (AM2) jumps on the slightest wee detail to rubbish the SNP at every turn. The guy is truly obnoxious.
314

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 20:42:20
379 Berero
Rough Guide to England Authors Rbert Andrew, Jules Brown, Robert hughes and Phil Lee - written and published in England

reviews : "All the info to have a good time " The Times
"invaluable addition" The Daily Telegraph

If your selective comments are typical of the whole text then the above mentioned must have a healthy level of self-critical and self - deprecating analysis.

Given a choice between that and your quasi- racist ranting I know which I would prefer.
315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:43:39
402. AM2

are you saying that the UK government did not refer to Scottish fishermen as "expendable"?
316

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:45:34
#398 Labour list msp

You do talk crap, not turning on a poster with English in his name but posting negative stuff regarding England because the said poster posts negative and stereotype stuff on Scotland. Tit for tat Berero calls it.
317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:46:10
302. AM2

if you had the grace to acknowledge you were wrong when you said the UK government had not referred to the fishinhg industry as "expendable" even when I supply the Scottish Office memo which says exactly that, then I might treat your posts with the usual level of derision before demolishing them.
318

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 20:47:01
Ayrshire Scot (368): "Now please explain why the UK government judging a vital Scottish indsutry as being expendable"

I don't want to become involved in your discussion with AM2 on this point, mainly because of my ignorance of the fishing industry. However, was this truly a vital industry in Scotland? What was the associated GDP, for example? How many were employed?

That said, the UK fishing industry would have done far better if England had reverted to its imperialist instincts: we should have annexed Iceland.
319

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:49:41
#404 Ugly

Yeh yeh yeh i do know who the authors are without an undervalued education from the likes of yourself thanks.

Now George to you reckon my post was more of a read that the topic at hand because it certainly got you logging in did it not and as for being racist ? Get real!!
320

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:50:07
#404 Ugly George

http://tinyurl.com/6dtvaf


"The guide also highlights the gap between rich and poor, and our increasing use of anti-depressants despite a wealth of material goods.

"As never before, the English have become obedient consumers rather than active citizens, with brand loyalty the nearest thing to religious/spiritual belief," it says.
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:51:26
412. Yes, the Scottish fishing industry in 1971 was vital to Scotland and differentially far more important to Scotland than fishing to Britain as a whole - which is why AM2 now trying to reverse the definition of British to state that a Scottish office memo which refers to British fishermen being "expendable" does not show the UK considered the industry in Scotland "expendable".
322

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 20:54:39
#413 Oh supposed real names. Isn't that the number one rule that is never broken on internet forums? Berero is right, you are obnoxious.
323

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 20:55:05
#411 Ayrshire

What on Earth does the tedious exactitudes of who said what, in what government memo, a decade ago, have to do with the lives of Scottish fishermen? They would be in exactly the same position now, if someone said 'extinct' of if someone said 'thriving'. You really are a tremendous bore.
324

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 20:56:03
Independence (415): "with brand loyalty the nearest thing to religious/spiritual belief"

If only this were true: brand loyalty is rational, and often empirically justified, unlike many spiritual beliefs. However, this has all been said before -- remember Napoleon's quip that the English were a nation of shopkeepers?
325

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 20:56:03
#413 AM2..list msp

#403 Berero

Is this Omar? Thanks for hiding behind the anonymity afforded you by the internet to call me "truly obnoxious". That's gratifying!

So what makes me "truly obnoxious", in your mind? Not supporting the SNP? Or speaking about it? Perhaps you agree with Jackie Priest that me not having been born in Scotland is a relevant factor?

No not at all but the way you come across with other posters slapping them down at every turn, calling them racist when they post a light hearted dig at the English and your School teacher mentality thinking you can bully other posters of the forum. Well your pretty weak by my standards ,anyway i take back the word obnoxious but your not far of it..
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 20:57:29
413. Berero - stop being rude to AM2. While there are some obnoxious posters on here he is not one of them. He and Geoff are about the only coherent unionists and do not abuse other posters - AM" is just frequently wrong. Same something for mr manners and some panning for Kimba.
327

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:00:41
419. You miss the point, the memo is a UK government memo on its position re EU entry negotiations - and it states that fishing is "expendable" - the UK did indeed sacrifice the fishing industry. This has been compounded over the years by the UK government failure to veto further damaging aspects of successive CFP, failure to introduce a proper decommissioning scheme.... just another example of a vital Scottish interest not well represented in the EU by the UK or looked after domestically by the EU. An independent Scotland could have and would have represented the fishing industry far better.
328

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 21:01:09
#418 Independence? Bring it On!,10/05/2008 20:54:39
#413 Oh supposed real names. Isn't that the number one rule that is never broken on internet forums? Berero is right, you are obnoxious

Ach its okay, he new it was me coz of my big powerful posts. Im to good for him so he retorts to the personal agenda hopping to shout me down
329

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 21:03:02
#416 Ayrshire Scot

Good grief. Try thinking about fish in nets, rather than governmental memos. What on Earth do you think fishing is about? Fish don't have a clue what you are inanely babbling on about.
330

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:03:52
423, That AM2 is a distortion too far. If you glance up the thread you will note that i specifically rule out any deliberate attempt to damage the Scottish fishing industry - just neglect of Scottish interests.

That your point now hinges on Scottish fishermen not being British (a bizarre view point for you) to support your false contention that the UK never described them as "expendable" in a Scottish Office memo, and relies on not acknowledging the obvious in terms of differential importance of fishing in Scotland,I suggest you retire and regain your composure.
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:04:46
429, And I have little clue what you are babbling about.
332

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 21:04:52
#422 Ayrshire Scot™

Oh alright then but keep him away from me coz he smells of Garlic.
333

Independence? Bring it On!,

10/05/2008 21:06:26
#427 All the same it's not on. What's his name again, Adam, Alex, Alfred, Allan, Amistead, Andy something like that? He insults are insidious and intended only to provoke. I'm delighted that with each passing day his scaremongering becomes weaker.
334

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 21:06:58
Wardog (424): "It's decimated an industry in the North East fo Scotland"

I will no doubt seem heartless to ask this question: how much money was involved per year? I'm not disagreeing with your post -- I simply have no intuition for the GDP generated by the Scottish fishing industry per annum.
335

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:07:58
434. Agreed. He smells of elderberries as well.
336

The Tin Man,

10/05/2008 21:10:18
#425 Ayrshire Scot

How, exactly, would independent Scottish representation have made any difference to the Common Fisheries Policy?
337

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:11:07
438. AM2 pathetic - as the Scottish fishing industry was c. 10 x more important to Scotland than fishing was to the rest of the UK, clearly describing the fishing industry as expendable was a dereliction of a vital Scottish interest by a UK government.
338

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:13:55
441. At the point of entry, an independent Scotland would not have treated the industry as "expendable". During the 70s/80s/90s Scotland, if independent, could have used the national veto over the CFP to protect the indsutry and secure a better deal for the industry 0 not least in terms of compensatory funding and decommssioning. An indpendent Scottish government would certainly have introduced a comprehensive decommissioning scheme.
339

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 10/05/2008 21:14:21
So fatboy Prescott claims that he urged Bliar on several occasiona to "sack" Maggie.

From frying pan...............
340

Berero Looking to the summer sky for inspiration,

10/05/2008 21:16:25
#437 Ayrshire

Well in that case he smells, okay im off out, just waiting for my other half Mrs Berero to get herself ready, catch you later, left you an email..
341

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:18:46
309. AM2 - Ireland within the Euro zone has grown massively faster than Scotland and the UK. You point to one quarter growth figures - I prefer 30 years of GDP growth that show Ireland outperforming the UK and Scotland. In terms of the Euor, Ireland benefits from the stability of that if provides to smaller countries - the ECB has acted faster and more effectively on the credit crunch issue for example than the BoE. Scotland would be considered like any other member of the Euro zone should it join. This is better than having Scottish industries described as "expendable" or having regions of Scotland ignored by the UK government when they tried to secure ERDF Objective 1 funding. Some influence for Scotland is better than the zero and sometimes negative influence the UK exerts for us at present.
342

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 21:19:11
#445 Ayrshire Scot

And what on Earth would it have to do with catching cod off Greenland?
343

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:20:06
448. Are you saying that the Scottish fishing industry, representing 60% of the UK industry, was not described as "expendable" - are they not Brtish in your view now?
344

Conan the Librarian™,

10/05/2008 21:20:39
444
No AM2, here's a dandy Fascist.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/mussolini.jpg
345

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 21:22:53
...and loading it onto a Spanish freezer semi on a deserted pier on the W. Coast?

...or flogging it to a Russian factory ship?
346

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 21:28:45
414 Berero
Are you saying that you are merely making these comments in order to ptovoke.
347

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:29:37
456. AM2

given that the Scottish fishing industry was 60% of the UK industry, and c. 10 times more important to Scotland than fishing was to the UK as a whole, either way the UK describing the industry as "expendable" was a dereliction and a disgraceful way to treat an important Scottish industry. It highlights why we need independence and makes a total mockery of your argument that being part of the UK helps Scotland's interests in Europe.
348

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/05/2008 21:30:32
#455 Wardog

That also includes salmon farming, and salmon is now cheaper than cod.
349

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:33:43
Property asking prices down 10%.”

It’s a headline to strike fear into the heart of any overstretched homeowner. And it’s precisely the headline that readers of the Irish Times - Ireland’s biggest broadsheet - woke up to last Monday. Asking prices across Dublin have slumped in the past six months, particularly in the wealthier suburbs of the city, amid a glut of property coming onto the market.

It’s certainly a shock for those who thought prices could only ever go up. But as economist Dermot O’Leary of Dublin’s Goodbody Stockbrokers said: “It had to happen at some stage.” Even the IMF and the OECD reckoned the Irish property market was overvalued by at least 25%.
350

Conan the Librarian™,

10/05/2008 21:33:46
Jeez.

AM2

What is it that you can't get about independence?
Your youth in NI?
351

Fairfax,

10/05/2008 21:35:03
Ayrshire Scot (449): "the ECB has acted faster and more effectively on the credit crunch issue for example than the BoE."

It certainly began to respond more quickly, but it's not entirely fair to lay the blame at the BofE's door: the extension of liquidity, whilst provided under the aegis of the BofE, is authorized and provided by the Treasury -- the slowness is due to Brown and Darling. Whether the ECB or BoE/Treasury liquidity provisions will be effective is yet to be seen.

One further point: UK banks active in the Eurozone area already have access to ECB facilities. This has become a bone of contention, in fact, since it enables Britain's banks to indulge in "central bank arbitrage", i.e. using the ECB where preferable. The Icelandic banks must therefore be kicking themselves that they never thought to hedge their bets in this way!
352

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:35:09
And how bad can it be? After all, unless you bought in the past two years, you would probably be cushioned from the impact - wouldn’t you?

Unfortunately for Ireland, the cracks in its property market run way deeper into the economy than most would have hoped.

Ireland long ago stopped being the much-lauded Celtic tiger economy. Now “it’s a Bob the Builder economy”, says Morgan Kelly, professor of economics at University College Dublin.

In 1998, Ireland had a rapidly growing economy (even then), with interest rates at around 6% and rising. In 1999, as a member of the eurozone, it switched to a single interest rate controlled by the European Central Bank. Now, the main economy in the eurozone is Germany, and it was the polar opposite of Ireland at the time. So Ireland ended up with a sharply reduced interest rate, more suited to struggling Berlin, than racing Dublin.
353

Conan the Librarian™,

10/05/2008 21:35:23
462
How is your mum?
354

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:35:50
Hence the house price boom, which has seen prices shoot up by more than 200% in the past five years alone, fuelling an equally superlative construction boom.

In 2005, the building sector accounted for nearly a quarter of gross national product. It also employs 13% of the Irish workforce - that’s more than one in eight of the working population.

So if the construction sector goes down, the Irish economy goes with it. And right now building work is stalling. Very rapidly.

The trouble is, just as Ireland’s consumers are stuffed full of debt and vulnerable to any waver in interest rates, Germany is recovering. And now the ECB is raising rates - which suits the consumer in Berlin, but is an utter nightmare for Dublin’s amateur property moguls.

As more properties come onto the market, prices fall. There are now 250,000 vacant housing units on the market, about 15% of Irish housing stock, compared to 100,000 units five years ago. So builders are responding the only way they can - they’ve stopped building. The 12-month running total for housing starts has fallen from a peak of 96,000 in September last year to 83,000 now.
355

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:37:05
And they’ll fall much further. UK construction group Wolseley, which owns Brooks, Ireland’s largest timber distributor, reckons starts will fall by 30% this year to between 70,000 and 65,000. And less building means less builders, which means longer dole queues.

“We’re looking at a horrible employment shock,” says Kelly, with “very unpleasant consequences.”

He forecasts unemployment reaching 12%-13% within the next year to 18 months, as builders continue to cut back on construction. He points to Arizona in the US, where housing starts have more than halved, dropping from a high of 8,000 units a month last May, to just 3,000 by November.

“Irish people are very casual about this. There’s an assumption that construction workers are all Eastern Europeans and that they’ll get back on the plane to Krakow,” when things go awry, he says. “But foreign workers only make up 12% of the building workforce.”

Kelly reckons prices could fall by 50%. “In a typical property crash, prices fall by 70% of what they’ve gained. That would imply a rental yield of 8%, which is still very low” by historical standards. “A 10% rental yield would imply bigger falls.”
356

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:37:46
464. Fairfax

thanks, interesting, and you are probably correct about Brown and Darling.
357

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:38:12
And, as a small open economy especially vulnerable to external developments, everything from a weakening dollar to higher interest rates – both of which seems very likely indeed - could act as a trigger for a drop, says Dr. Alan Ahearne, an economist at the National University of Galway.

“If we get a 25% drop in house prices over two to three years and a big contraction in [construction] at the same time… there’s no doubt that that would put the Irish economy into recession. And if our export sector is hit at the same time by a falling dollar then you’re getting a perfect storm of negative shocks, and then there could be quite serious trouble.”
358

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:43:39
473. Do you have a micro-scope handy?
359

Robert E. Howard,

10/05/2008 21:46:11
#466 Conan


All fled--all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over, and the lamps expire.
360

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 21:46:58
471. AM2

of course the point you fail to address is that an independent Scotland could have vetoed the CFP to secure better protection for the Scottish industry. The UK could not or would not because it had conceded the industry was "expendable" and could not say it was a vital UK industry - it was a vital Scottish industry.
361

Conan the Librarian™,

10/05/2008 21:57:09
477
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
(Not you Robert, others on these threads)
362

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 22:00:55
phew panic over wendy has backtracked

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3908482.ece

She looks pretty silly now and she is fooling no one (well no one intelligent anyway)
363

Conan the Librarian™,

10/05/2008 22:02:50
482
What's weird?
364

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/05/2008 22:05:12
483. ROTFL LOL!


"If the SNP would not introduce a bill for an early referendum, Labour would do so, she said. “Bring it on,” she told Alex Salmond, Scotland’s First Minister and SNP leader.
But..

"Today, Ms Alexander said Labour, as a minority in the Scottish Parliament, could not force an early referendum. "

Oh jeez. How much worse can she get?

365

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 22:23:29
its a shame really though, they could have dragged this out a bit long i think. Labour really do think we are all idiots. if there was nothing in this why were labour msps saying that brown bottled it over the referendum? It just seems like they had a greed on the referendum issue then he cr@ps it and denys she said anythign about a referendum. Then he says that he was talking about a westminster referendum on independence, the whole thing was a nonsense. Clearly they have both ahd time to get their story straight and now wendy has had to backtrack and lose what tiny little bit of credibility she had left. I'd feel sorry for her if she wasn't treating us with contempt.
366

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 22:28:33
lol i've always thought thats where her head was, though with a brain her size (allegedly) i'm surprised it would fit!
367

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 22:47:34
ooh poor brown he's being described as an old family pet that you are reluctant to put down, ouch.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/10/do1001.xml
368

karinxxx,

10/05/2008 23:10:19
ahh so this is where everyone is?
369

Truely English,

10/05/2008 23:16:21
379
Went to the local this evening with a Scottish friend from Inverness and lo and behold sitting next to us in the bar were two Germans from Munich one had a few words of English enough to communicate simple things while the other knew no English whatsoever.

Tell me please, how do we share the same language and culture when neither can communicate or understand each other. Yes, they are different from the English, but the Scots are not, as we both speak the same language and follow the same culture and way of life.

The Scots use standard English in their Education system, their legal system, going to shop for food, at work and for every other purpose under the sun. No we are not different other than in minor ways.
370

Florence,

Edinburgh 10/05/2008 23:19:47
Penultimate paragraph - "She has demanded......" I don't think Wendy Alexander is in a position to demand anything. A busted flush.
371

Richardinho,

10/05/2008 23:43:00
If Wendy has backed down on a referendum it is directly because Gordon Brown has told her to.
This begs the question; if Scottish Labour is simply controlled by Westminster Labour-what is the point of them being in government at Holyrood?
The SNP has emerged greatly strengthened by the last weeks events, because it is seen as the only party that actually represents Scotland.
372

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/05/2008 00:05:55
Oh dear. I watch a bit of telly with my evening meal and when I return Douglas Alexander is doing the postings count.

Shame about his sister too.
373

Independence? Bring it On!,

11/05/2008 00:33:02
#485 Verstehen Sie nicht Deutsches, Herr Truely?
374

Fairfax,

11/05/2008 10:31:00
Conan (471): "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

Savages are only more courteous on average: the strong have the power to be much more discourteous, since they can split skulls. In this sense, civilization's effect has been to distribute rudeness more equitably! In fact, the quasi-economic view would be that this is precisely why civilization is tolerated: average benefits increase.
375

Martyk,

11/05/2008 20:44:18
Have a look at Silicon Glen on Wiki Ped
376

Gina Gibson,

Wales 11/05/2008 21:07:20
Bendy Wendy says "Bring it on"
Alex Salmond says "On yer bike!"

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.