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Fear over safety of prostitutes with ban on kerb-crawling

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Published Date: 15 October 2007
By MICHAEL HOWIE
PROSTITUTES will be put in more danger as a result of new legislation that from today prohibits kerb-crawling in Scotland, it was claimed last night.

Under the Prostitution (Public Places) Scotland Act, anyone caught soliciting for sex from a prostitute, as well as those "loitering for the same purpose", will be fined up to £1,000 and be given a criminal record.

The Scottish Government is also having talks with officials in Westminster over introducing powers to ban offenders from driving - currently available south of the Border - to courts in Scotland.

The law has criminalised only those selling sex on the streets, unlike in England where kerb-crawling has been an offence for more than 20 years.

Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, said the law will "no longer turn a blind eye" to those who fuel the sex trade, but critics last night claimed it will drive prostitution further underground and expose street-workers to more dangers.

Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP for Lothians, said: "The original criterion for the legislation was for better management of prostitution, but this won't do that at all. All that will happen is that sexual services will continue to be offered, but it will be done away from areas where people are likely to be stopped."

The number of recorded attacks on prostitutes in Edinburgh soared by 500 per cent after the abolition of the city's prostitution tolerance zone. Ms MacDonald said this highlighted the danger of driving prostitution underground.

"This new law will just make the problem even worse," she said.

But Mr MacAskill said the legislation was right. "This new approach to the problem of street prostitution shows we will not turn a blind eye to the people who sustain and fuel this exploitative trade," he said.

"It corrects an unfair legal position where only those engaged in prostitution could be targeted, while the kerb-crawlers demanding their services - often harassing the wider community in the process - get off scot-free."

Assistant Chief Constable John Neilson, spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, said: "This is a welcome piece of legislation and an effective tool for us to use in areas where there is a known prostitution problem."

See an interview with George Lewis, Chair of ScotPep a sex workers support charity >>







Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 October 2007 4:38 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Prostitution
 
1

S MacLeod,

Salt Mines of Rockall 15/10/2007 00:15:33

"Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP for Lothians, said: "The original criterion for the legislation was for better management of prostitution, but this won't do that at all. All that will happen is that sexual services will continue to be offered, but it will be done away from areas where people are likely to be stopped.""

2

Guga II,

Rockall 15/10/2007 00:36:08

Prostitution is allegedly the oldest profession in the world, and any attempts to legislate against it are doomed to failure. All this will do is drive it underground, and exacerbate the criminal aspects involved with it.

The question needs to be asked, why is prostitution a criminal offence? It is a victimless crime, and obviously fulfils a need.

Why can't they legalise it and control it, like they do in certain European cities. That way there is more chance of preventing crime, preventing disease and possibly helping the girls with drug problems; and our greedy government can even get tax money from them.

I am also sure that the second oldest profession can survive any drop in income from legalising prostitution.

3

,

15/10/2007 02:46:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1056432, Article id was mapped to record!
4

,

15/10/2007 04:33:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Bill C,

15/10/2007 04:53:04

And a lot of this is down to the maverick former Deputy Chief Constable Tom Wood, Margo McDonald and Scotpep who were acting outwith the law in setting up an unlawful "tolerance" zone. They foisted their little bit of social experimentation on the people who actually live in Leith and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
Rather than "tolerate" street protitution, they should be adopting the Glasgow scheme to get women out of prostitution and preventing their abuse at source. Rather than trying to normalise this Margo, why don't you do more to address the issues that put them there in the first place instead of braying like a stairheid bully?
Prostitution should be properly legalised and controlled, not on the street, but in proper premises where health checks etc. can be monitored.

6

49th State,

Looking out at the awful snow 15/10/2007 05:23:59

Ladies of the night and their STD buddies. I hope all you Scots over there are wise enough to stay away from shaming yourselves with these poor ladies.

7

henrymanchester,

UK 15/10/2007 05:29:17

I think the £1000.00 fine is the real reason for this new law.

The Scottish knocking shop tax?

8

Boy Wonder,

15/10/2007 06:18:15

The only way to get women (and rentboys) out of prostitution, is for them to get jobs that pay them the money they require for whatever. Well, that ain't gonna happen ... so I guess the oldest profession will never go away. I'm with those who call for it to be legalised and regulated, so that the women (and rentboys) are safe from murderous predators! Get them off the street and into government-run brothels!

Then our politicians will not get into trouble for visiting them ... since they'll officially be their pimps!

9

Hibernia,

15/10/2007 07:06:39

#3 you truly are an erse

10

Paddy of Mass Destruction,

Republic of Broonistan 15/10/2007 07:10:42

And of course, now it is illegal it will stop.
Like Guncrine.
Like Drugs.
Like Knives.
Like Mobiles while driving.
Like Seatbelts.
I could go on.
When will Politicians get it. Legislation will never be a substitute for proper enforcement of existing laws.

11

morris,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 07:18:27

Prostitution was always wrongly considered to be an offence on the part of the girls but the male client was somehow not involved? It takes two to tango for want of a better expression.
In that respect this legislation probably helps to redress this imbalance, which has existed for many years now.
I cant help wondering though if its maybe not time we accepted that this will always exist ,underground if necessary,and legalisation is the answer with regulation and control.Southampton apparently has done this,and it works perfectly well as far as I am aware.
One thing for sure,we will never be rid of prostitution,and I'm not convinced that we should even try. It would be an act of futility.
You could argue that a valuable social service is provided here,and if the likelihood of rape is reduced (I'm not saying that it can be established one way or the other in absolute certainty),then that is as satisfactory an outcome as we are ever likely to have.
For every person who sees prostitution as an obscenity there is presumably someone who is grateful for its existence. Who decided who was entitled to a point of view and who was not?
Just for the record I do not argue here because I use these services. Equally I cannot see whats wrong with being afforded the choice.

If its controlled its not a problem.The demand will never go away,so we should deal with that reality.
Many girls from other countries are forced into prostitution when they came here to try and earn an honest dollar,again this exists because we dont deal with what could easily be regulated.,thereby removing the need for underground abuse of these girls.
We really need a study here ,free from bias and taking all views on board.Whatever the answer is,its certainly not the status quo.

12

morris,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 07:25:01

11 continued

Before anyone asks I do not argue because I use these services means I DO NOT FREQUENT PREMISES or locations used by prostitiutes.It occurred to me that interpretation of the opposite is well possible here,(not that this makes my view any more or less valid I would suggest).

13

Bruce's spider,

15/10/2007 07:48:38

Yet another example of how out of touch politicians are. What we need in the cities are designated areas away from residential districts where sexual services can be sold in a pimp-free environment. What happened at Leith was a shambles and an example of how not to do things. Unfortunately we live in a dictatorship where the politicians don't give a damn what the majority want.

14

DXBSteve,

Dubai 15/10/2007 08:01:48

Quite simply. Prostitution is not going away. It exists in every country in the world and always has done. It is largely a vicitimless crime although the underlying social causes that drive people into prostitution clearly need to be addressed with greater vigour and resources. It is not the outcome but the cause that needs to be addressed.

In Scotland like many Western nations it is drug addiction that drives so many into prostitution and crime. This is where the debate should be.

Today, Richard Brunstrom, the Chief Constable of North Wales, advocates an end to UK drug policy based on "prohibition". His comments come as the Home Office this week ends the process of gathering expert advice looking at the next 10 years of strategy.

In his radical analysis, which he will present to the North Wales Police Authority today, Mr Brunstrom points out that illegal drugs are now cheaper and more plentiful than ever before.

The number of users has soared while drug-related crime is rising with narcotics now supporting a worldwide business empire second only in value to oil. "If policy on drugs is in future to be pragmatic not moralistic, driven by ethics not dogma, then the current prohibitionist stance will have to be swept away as both unworkable and immoral, to be replaced with an evidence-based unified system (specifically including tobacco and alcohol) aimed at minimisation of harms to society," he will say.

It is controversial but a change in drugs law is required. Legalise or zero tolerance? I live in the Middle East where there is a zero tolerance stance and it seems to work....drugs are so rare I have never come across evidence that drugs are here. Prostitution on the other hand trives.

The reason is supply and demand economics. The difference is the girls do it because they chose to not because they have to.

15

eric,

Lothian 15/10/2007 08:04:08

Wonder who will be 1st msp to be caught with his/her pants down!

16

AL.,

Lothians 15/10/2007 08:34:32

Wouldn't it be easier to arrest the prostitutes in these areas and keep arresting them until they stop appearing on the streets?
Isn't this a bit like arresting someone who's buying drugs but letting the dealer away?

17

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 08:39:52

Enough now. Legalise prostitution, plenty of examples in Europe on how to do that safely and
cleanly. Society cannot affordto let these women roam the streets, unregulated and unchecked. The spread of STDs including aids is exacibated by diseased prostitutes.

They must be regulated and taken off the streets,
allowing them to sell their bodies in the open, is in this day and age rather primative and backward.

Also Germany found that by regulation, many prostitutes gave the job up rather than face paying tax and taking on other responsibilities.

Lets drop this victim approach to these women, they do it because of the easy money. There are now more benefits available to these women than at any time in history. Setting up illegal tolerence areas demonstrates a total lack of workable solutions and a perception that these women have a right to act illegally.

18

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 08:40:35

#16 Brilliant point, does seem an arse about face approach.

19

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 08:45:41

I would like to see the wise legislatures apply this politically correct mumbo jumbo to all crimes. Um... is mumbo jumbo now on the banned list? Let me rephrase...

The only logic in this seems to be, is a white male involved, yes, okay it's his fault. Is the white male associated with this potential crime likely to be middle class and have enough money to pay a big fine to the treasury, yes, okay boys, we have all the information we need, let's milk this for all it's worth.

The reality is the women aren't prepared to push trolleys at Tescos or get down the sewer works to make a living. This has been the way for down on your luck males for centuries.

Time for some real equality. Put the women in prison and set equality targets for the sewer works, we need to not only help women into the well paid soft jobs, but also into the dead end jobs for the unskilled. If they commit unsocialable crimes to try and increase their lot, jail.

20

weepict,

edinburgh 15/10/2007 08:59:07

wow. we must legalise prostitution immediately if Archie is correct! in fact, if we follow his line of argument not only will disease, crime and criminality be wiped out, surely the economy will grow, the sun will shine and in no time at all we'll have world peace!

seriously. how will legalising prostitution 'all but eliminate' rape, given that rape is never about sex. it's always about power.

21

drake's drum,

North Britain 15/10/2007 08:59:16

GC number 3:
I hope Hillary's manifesto is going to be made public before she gets in to the White House.

22

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 09:03:25

"The only logic in this seems to be, is a white male involved, yes, okay it's his fault. Is the white male associated with this potential crime likely to be middle class and have enough money to pay a big fine to the treasury, yes, okay boys, we have all the information we need, let's milk this for all it's worth."

Andy, is your argument that prostitution would still exist if it weren't for the white, married, 30-something men who are its primary consumers? Doesn't demand drive up supply?

Or is there another reason why women are being transported from Eastern Europe in the boots of cars than to satisfy the apparently unquenchable lust of Scottish men to get their Nat King?

23

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 09:22:38

#22

The abhorrent use of sex slaves generally happens in back street saunas away from the prying eyes of the old bill. So you argument is a complete disconnect, the laws are aimed at kerb crawlers.

The 30 something man hasn't kidnapped anyone, hasn't beaten anyone, hasn't imprisoned anyone unlawfully, why then can you blame him for all these crimes for having a natural desire for sex? Another disconnect.

You should try and blame the criminals for their own crimes, not the white middle-class man.

Get the women down the sewers, that industry has been male dominated for too long, get them in the fish mongers as well, let's have some real equality.

24

DXBSteve,

Dubai 15/10/2007 09:24:37

#15 Eric, do we care?

There is so much salacious and moralistic claptrap surrounding this debate that it prevents us from moving forward.

Such are our Victorian attitudes to this that people like Morris #12 actually feels that they need a qualification statement to say that they don't use use prostitutes.

It is stigma, fear and salacious sniggering that is holding back proper discussion.

25

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 09:27:25

22 why are these women being transported in the boots of cars ? most of eastern europe now has a right to enter the UK via the front door. As for why so many are coming here,. its FOR THE MONEY.

In Germany the price has gone through the floor ,
forcing many german prostitutes to seek alternative employment. UK is where men are obviously still prepared to pay an attractive price. In other words
market forces are to blame.

26

Kobi,

15/10/2007 09:28:10

#5

"They foisted their little bit of social experimentation on the people who actually live in Leith and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves. "

Nothing like rewriting history is there?

There had been an informal protitution tolerance zone in Leith for decades. It was not near housing, it was well known to locals, and the only people affected adversely by it by it were those women daft enough to walk through that area late at night when they were not on the game.

Then housing developers and the council planning mob started, and before too long the area in question was infested with housing, filled with residents who didn't want this sort of thing on their doorstep. To try to accommodate this, Margo et al tried to promote a different area down in Leith, away from residential, but that was a failure.

It should be legalised. Monteith's Law states that if you legislate to do something, the opposite effect is the usual outcome.

27

eric,

Lothian 15/10/2007 09:33:25

24 No not really .Only when they are spouting morals to us common folk and go break them themselves!

28

Helen,

15/10/2007 09:41:29

Surely education needs to start in schools and with children at a very young age. Young women need to feel empowered and able to see themselves as dynamic freethinking individuals who do not need to sell their bodies for sex. Positive thinking is what's needed in schools and in families. Encourage wonen to work hard and get good qualifications and good jobs so that they can be independent and not need to resort to this kind of 'work'.

29

calum,

15/10/2007 09:41:47

"...women daft enough to walk through that area late at night when they were not on the game." Eh? Like women daft enough to live in the area and walk home being accosted and abused by prostitutes and their clients, you mean?
".... infested with housing". You mean regenerating and investing in an area which was run down?
"...Margo et al tried to promote a different area ..." Which law did they use to support the establishment their tolerance zone or what legal exemption to the law did they invoke, then?
I doubt if #5 is trying to re-write history but "Margo et al" are is no position to make up or ignore the law as they go along, and they knew it, hence their failure.

30

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 09:55:05

"why are these women being transported in the boots of cars ? most of eastern europe now has a right to enter the UK via the front door. As for why so many are coming here,. its FOR THE MONEY."

Trafficked women don't get paid, Number 6. Or volunteer for "sex work". That's kind of the point.

"The abhorrent use of sex slaves generally happens in back street saunas away from the prying eyes of the old bill. So you argument is a complete disconnect, the laws are aimed at kerb crawlers."

Even the quickest look at punternet will tell you that men who use saunas often use street prostitutes, so yes, the two are linked.

"The 30 something man hasn't kidnapped anyone, hasn't beaten anyone, hasn't imprisoned anyone unlawfully, why then can you blame him for all these crimes for having a natural desire for sex? Another disconnect."

Which is the same argument that kiddie-porn consumers use to justify THEIR actions. I don't accept that men's natural desire for sex amounts to a justification for kerb-crawling, which amounts to an attempt to exploit women of whom 98% are drug users, most have experienced other forms of abuse and whose average age of entering prostitution is 14.

If street prostitution was the "better than Tescos" option, then it would be unlikely that between 92% and 95% of prostituting women want desperately to get out of it.

31

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 10:10:02

#31 Benjamin Fraser

Your argument is still a disconnect. Saunas and street prostitutes may well be linked thorugh a common client, but here is why you have lost the thread.

You blame a criminal for their crime. If someone is taken by force into slavery, you blame the gang that did it.

Gangs also finance violence through diamonds, should we blame women who like jewlery for war? that is your logic.

Boo hoo for these women, they are too greedy to work at tesco or down the sewer. Let's have some proper equality, a car thief or a house robber gets no sympathy. Why should prostitutes be different, they can go and sell sex in the saunas if they want to.

32

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 10:18:42

#30

Kerb crawling for saunas? You just failed the mensa test.

Read the article, comment on the article, stop puruing daft tangents like sex slavery. That is already illegal.

33

calum,

15/10/2007 10:19:47

My comment at #29 meant for #26 Kobi

34

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 10:22:00

#28

Educations has positive benefits for all. Including junkies, muderers, thiefs etc for both genders.

What right does a Women have in this enlightened age to claim it's societies fault? None whatsoever.

Get them a job in Tescos or down the sewer, if they lack the skills for that, then pay them benefit. But tell them to stay off our streets like you would a male criminal.

Boo hoo, can't get a job paying £70,000 per annum that doesn't involve, horrible bad men no wonder you turned to crime, that is understandable.

35

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 10:26:02

My heart bleeds for them.

Today a herion dealer got beaten and robbed in a secluded car park where he went freely as part of a criminal act. Big deal.

Today a prostitute got beaten and robbed in a secluded car park where she went freely as part of a criminal act. Big deal.

36

GP,

15/10/2007 10:39:08

once again double standards from those that have to those that have less.
A high priced "prostitute" "call girl" "escort" does not break the law as she/he is not on the streets, the less high priced "call girl" "escort" or again double standards naming convention "prostitute" is an is breaking the law. Typical upper class British attitude, don't do as I do do as I say.

37

S153,

15/10/2007 10:39:09

Tough, if you choose that particular "career path" you live with the risks and the consequences. Are we the taxpayers expected to feel sorry for them and to pay for their own provate police force?? They are breaking the law and I have no sympathy for them. Can they not get their pimps to "police" their activities??

38

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 10:42:14

While I admire your verve for the ad hominem argument, Andy, I think you are still missing a central point.

"You blame a criminal for their crime. If someone is taken by force into slavery, you blame the gang that did it."

And I do. However, I don't think that you have addressed the point about demand and supply. If there wasn't a market for 'sex' with women who have clearly been abused and beaten and held against their will it would be a nonsense to supply it.

You may see some kind of moral distinction between this group of punters and the men who purchase the services of cracked-out, 14 year old streetwalkers, who have been pushed onto the street by violent boyfriends, but I don't.

"Gangs also finance violence through diamonds, should we blame women who like jewlery for war? that is your logic. "

The UN has spearheaded an international effort to try to identify diamonds mined in war zones that are potentially being sold to finance abusive regimers or war activity. The Kimberley Process Certification Scheme allows people some security about the provenance of their diamonds.

Women who knowingly buy conflict diamonds are analogous to men who use prostitutes.

39

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 10:52:23

Nonsense Benjamin, all mammals have sexual desires, how can you try and engineer that away?

If I meet a women in a bar or on the street and we want to go and have sex, we can, I/she/we are free to do as we please.

The norm would be to go back to mine/hers/a hotel. The only difference being there is no money involved. Am I a criminal for that? No, the crime is made by the prostitute, loitering, inviting men looking for sex to the same spot night after night.

I'm sure the prostitutes customers do commit crimes, but let's only charge them with what they are guilty of.

- Any road traffic act offence for slowing down and speaking to a citizen, if it presents a danger.
- Sexual harrassment if they are rude to a citizen or making unwanted advances.
- Public indecency if they are having sex in a public place.

This is more nonsense from fool's who can't just call a prostitute a criminal and accept her crime is to ruin areas and waste police time. Junkies choose to steal to feed their habit, criminals, prostitutes choose to sell sex to feed theirs, criminals.

Charge the criminal for the crime, simple really.

40

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 10:59:42

I don't expect anyone else to suffer to meet my sexual desires, Andy. I find it both bizarre and horrifying that some men apparently do.

Do you think that people who buy organs (kidneys and livers, not pipe) aren't committing a crime? Just because someone is sufficiently impoverished, desparate and abused to sell you something doesn't mean that buying it shouldn't be either a crime in terms of the law or a crime against morals.

41

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 11:06:13

#42

"I don't expect anyone else to suffer to meet my sexual desires"

Another disconnect. How do you work out people who pay for sex want another to suffer. They just want to have sex.

Men and women often go out and look for sex. How can you criminalise that? That is an idiot's proposal. Work out what crimes are being committed and charge the criminals for those, do some police work. Don't just dilute the law to the point where you can lawfully and legitametely suspect someone as a criminal for asking directions at a road side.

42

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 11:18:13

#30 Surely if prostitution was legalised , controlled and presented in a more humane manner, there would be no back street prostitution because there would be no customers.

I still contend that people are not being transported across europe in the boots of cars, that went out with the Berlin wall.

43

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 11:18:39

I think you're getting a bit confused, Andy. Your point is that sexual desires are natural, and impossible to engineer away.

My point is that of course sexual desire is natural, but expecting other people to suffer for those to be met is abhorrent. Prostituting women suffer. They experience high rates of PTSD. They are frequently beaten and raped, and almost all street prostitutes (the subject of this article, as you have pointed out) are chronic drug users because their day to day reality is so miserable.

If I can't get laid, I don't expect 14 year old abuse survivors to put out to accommodate my 'needs'. Even if my hands fell off I still wouldn't expect women to suffer so I could get some.

The entire thrust of the broader debate on prostitution in a law and order context is around whose behaviour should be criminalised. Many other jurisdictions have reached the conclusion that men who use prostitutes are the criminals, and have seen a wide range of anti-social behaviours in their countries fall. Including trafficking of women across international borders into their countries.

44

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 11:27:26

#44

You are disconnected in the head, I suspect you are pretending to be stupid rather than that dumb.

Here are your disconnected points.

- Having sex with a 14 year old is illegal
- Rape is illegal
- Violence is illegal
- Drug use is illegal
- Immigration without authority is illegal
- Kidnapping is illegal
- Indebted/indendured servitude is illegal

If the police did some police work and identified crimes and the criminals who actually commit the crimes and charge and jail them using existing legislation then that would be more effective than arresting innocent men looking to engage in consensual sex.

No-one can be so silly as not believe that. Left foot, right foot, left foot, one foot after the other identifying crime and then the criminal. Inventing new watered down crimes to get targets up and hide crime not solve it is easier but less effective.

BTW Benji, if you are for real you are a moron.

45

Bruce's spider,

15/10/2007 11:31:48

# 41 Not sure where you are going with this Benjamin. Prostitution, as others have already stated, has been around for centuries and regardless of what the law says always will be around. Where exactly do you get the suffering for sexual desires bit? sounds like you've been reading too many back issues of the Scottish Catholic Observer. A stone's throw from where the prostitutes used to ply their trade in Leith there used to be a sauna. As we all know, few people who come out of an Edinburgh sauna in a sweat worked it up from sitting in a timber clad steam room. The girls that worked there did so thru choice because they earned better money than they would in an office or shop, worked the hours they wanted and did so in an environment that they had control over. This is the way it should be and there is nothing wrong with it. The Scottish Parliament are being complete asses by pretending anything else. Salmond talks about a new progressive Scotland well here is some territory where we can blaze a trail and show others how it should be done.

46

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 11:38:17

I think you've seen too many episodes of Belle de Jour, Andy.

The point is that there is no such thing as "innocent men looking to engage in consensual sex", because there is no one working on the street (or in a sauna) who can actually provide that.

As per all of my posts above women (or girls - average age of entering prostitution is 14) are coerced into prostitution by either violence or poverty (or both). There is no legion of happy, smiling women who strolled into the job centre and picked hooking over shelf-stacking.

47

Benjamin Fraser,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 11:41:33

"Prostitution, as others have already stated, has been around for centuries."

So was slavery, Bruce. What's your point?

48

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 11:43:33

#47

You can enter emplyment by consent, but you can't enter prostitution by consent. Interesting point please explain.

You can't be coerced to enter employment to allieviate the inherent threat of poverty in our society, yet you can be coerced into prostitution for the same reasons. Again, another wildly disconnected argument.

Consensual employment (in a job you hate) to pay the rent (and to avoid poverty) = Righteous, moral and freedom of choice.

Consensual sex (not for love) to pay the rent (and to avoide poverty = Bad, no choice in the matter.

Consensual is not a term that includes your disconnected logic. It simply means that both parties agree. They don't have to provide written proof of their motives, they don't need to love each other, we are free to consent to any legal activity. Sex is still legal.

49

GrahamL,

15/10/2007 11:45:34

There seem to be two parts to the prostution argument:
1. Selling sex
2. The horrible things that happen to prostitutes

As it as at the moment both are illegal, and clamping down on part 1 moves it further away from the public eye - making it easier to get away with part 2.
By legalising the selling of sex, it can be regulated, done in the open and anyone abusing these legitimate workers - in any way - can then be dealt with as the law dictates.

You have to take the two parts separately and see that they are not necessarily connected. Nobody will argue that the abuse of prostitutes is right - but as long as prostitution itself is illegal it is much harder for these crimes to be reported. By taking away that barrier, it would seem clear that things become safer.

50

Bruce's spider,

15/10/2007 11:58:38

#48 I think andy must be right Benjamin, you can't be for real. You seem incapable of accepting the fact that some women work as prostitutes thru choice. They aren't coerced into it they do it because they want to. For whatever reason we all seem to have focused on female prostitutes in this thread but male prostitution is out there too Benjamin. I know of a guy who worked in a casino and old women who couldn't get a leg over anywhere else would come in looking for him. In the 20 minute break that croupiers get every hour he used to take them out the back and give them one. He was well rewarded for his efforts. Please explain how he was forced into this by violence or poverty?

51

Allan(handofgod137),

15/10/2007 11:58:57

Legalisation is the only sensible way forward.

52

claude,

london 15/10/2007 12:09:47

I agree with #8 Boy wonder, his last para is spot on.
On the wider issue of this however, I wonder be what mandate the new law was passed, this is a profound social matter that needs to be analyzed and discussed
properly, and not just passed as if it was of little importance
It will have serious repercussion, and that is the reason why most European countries have this legalized and under control, thus eliminating health problems, criminality, and at the same time providing security for the women.

53

Miss H,

15/10/2007 12:13:58

51

Some women do work in prostitution through choice but most street prostitutes do not. The underlying problem of street prostitution is of course drug addiction. My view on this is that we should simply give them the heroin on prescription. Let's see how many of them 'choose' to go on being street prostitutes if they have a safe and legal alternative way to get their drugs.

We have two choices really with prostitution. We can go down the legalisation route as most men here want to, or we can amend the law so that it is the purchasers rather than the providers who are penalised as is the case in Scandinavian countries.

Ten or twenty years ago I would probably have supported Margo et al who want to manage or legalise it but the evidence from countries or regions where that has happened suggests that this would be a mistake.

Therefore I think we are right to opt for the Scandinavian model.

54

Bruce's spider,

15/10/2007 12:27:17

#54 no doubt Miss H you are right in your assertion that many who work the streets do so to feed their habits and this is certainly the case with the majority in Edinburgh. They are sad cases whose plight is often aggravated further by alcohol, solvents you name it. Don't know if you've ever chatted to many women on the game but most are from the lower strata of society who are not suddenly going to get cleaned up and become rocket scientists. Not sure what evidence you are referring to when you state that legalisation would be a mistake. Having a site where women/men could offer sexual services for money without having criminals and pimps looking over their shoulders has to be good. It will be safe for the girls and I have no doubt that sexual crimes will go down as a consequence. Penalising the girls and the punters doesn't achieve anything altho' i do recall how bad the kerb crawlers used to be at Coburg Street in Leith. We need to have a more enlightened approach to this subject becasue nothing is working at the moment and if anyone does care about the working girls at least give them some protection and somewhere safe to work.

55

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 12:36:55

Andy your attitude is arrogant, ignorant and apparently deliberately blind to reality. You allege that the reason that people who seek out prostitutes for sex are being criminalised is that they are white, middle class males. This is preposterous and quite evidently nothing more than sour grapes from someone who thinks such actions should be above the law and cannot bear to be told he's wrong.

There may well be some people working as prostitutes who have made that choice quite independently, but you can be sure that we hear far more anecdotal evidence of these types of prostitutes than of any other because it assuages the guilt of those who use prostitutes.

The reality is that the vast majority of prostitutes have not made the choice independently, and unless you can prove that any given person has done so, you cannot condone kerb-crawling or the use of prostitutes in general.

Quite frankly the massive risks that sex workers face on the street, of being raped, beaten up or killed, is driven by sociopathic attitudes such as yours. You are part of the problem, and you need to change.

56

Gavin Mc,

Lothians 15/10/2007 12:50:56

Recent scientific reports have made clear that heroin is not addictive and people who want to come off it can. I also remember a prostitute on the news on tv saying that she liked her job and chose to do it. People can choose to use heroin and people can choose to be prostitutes. People can also choose not to do these things. If heroin and prostitution really are harmful to society then we need to educate people better, not just prosecute them.

57

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 12:53:31

#56 Duncan in Edinburgh

A house burglar does not choose to be a criminal or a junkie. Should we stop punishing the thief for his crimes?

Buying sex for money is legal.

I find it appauling the liberal clap trap (and I consider myself liberal on most issues) that people come out with.

I can walk into a Hibs bar on a Saturday night wearing a Hearts strip. How long will I last? Who is to blame when I get a kickin'? I have human rights to do that, freedom of expression.

People will rightfully blame me, even though I have committed no crime, for utilising my freedom of expression and liberties.

Why then do the same people not ask that prostitutes carry their responsibilities the same as the rest of us?

58

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 13:08:43

#58 I find it appalling that you find it appauling.

If someone beats you up because they don't like your clothes, or your face, or your ethnicity, or anything else about you, they are responsible. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical.

59

Ms Fiona,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 13:10:16

I cannot comment on the situation in Edinburgh but I do know that in Glasgow human trafficking in young - sometimes very young - Eastern European females is happening and is tantamount to slavery. The men using these women should be charged with rape. Most of the working girls on the strets are there to feed their drug habbit. So the likes of Andy will maintain they are excercising a choice there, first to be addicted to drugs and then to sell their bodies to fund their habbits. I dont think its quite as simple as that. But what to do ? I also believe that heroin should be available on prescription we have lost any war on drugs and why should Society as a whole continue to pay a social price because of this failure ? This would take large numbers of girls off the streets. The Police should take action against the brothels who use slaves, but the problem there is that the girls just get sent back to wherver it was they came from and the whole cycle starts off again. It is a huge problem that does not have an easy answer. However, I think Andy you are being disingeneous you are presenting the case that the girls caught up in prostitution are essentially acting out of choice and have the option of 'reforming' at any point. And also that the purchase of sex can be a transaction between equals. This is not the case, these girls are being exploited they do not have the same choices as me or you and it does not do your argument any good to say that they do.

60

Andy Dufresne,

15/10/2007 13:16:31

# 60

No Ms Fiona, you are coming out with the normal sexist nonsense heavily in favour of the women for irrational reasons.

What I am arguing is related to teh story. It is rediculous to criminalise a man looking for consensual sex. The start and finish of it.

Because of your sexism you think that man is bad, because of your sexism you think poor woman.

A women and a man want to habe consensual sex, criminalising either end of that transaction is absurd.

You and benji make up all this other junk to defend your sexist position.

61

Ms Fiona,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 13:20:03

Andy if you want to have consensual sex go to a bar. What I am saying is these women are not offering consensual sex. They are by and large drug addicts from extremely poor backgrounds who are being exploited. They do not have the same choices that you do. You may not like that, but it is a fact. Ask any cop.

62

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 13:22:45

#61 Andy, people who want consensual sex do not charge for it.

63

GP,

15/10/2007 13:33:24

62# please address my point made at 36# what IS the difference from a prostitute and a sex providing escort? male or female.

64

AL.,

Lothians 15/10/2007 13:36:42

I don't see why these women shouldn't be arrested and charged whether it is their choice to be there or not.
A male heroin addict that steals or robs to fund his habit would be and would probably come from a similar background.
A young gang member pressured into illegal activity would likewise be arrested even though he could still be classed a victim similar to these prostitutes.
The police / court process should ensure that these women can obtain help if they want it.

65

Kobi,

15/10/2007 13:37:44

Anyone who thinks that ALL prostitutes (male and female) do so by choice is a fool. Likewise anyone who thinks that they are ALL forced to do so by drugs, poverty or violence.


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1553...

66

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 13:46:51

What habit were prostitutes feeding in the 20's
30's 40's 50's 60's 70's ...........

Was it drugs then ?. Drugs are not the common denominator just the excuse that gets given the most publicity. What about alcohol ? surely that has a grip of more Scottish prostitutes than drugs.

What are the elderly prostitutes addicted to ?. No
this is used to pour sympathy on these women rather than high-light their criminal activity. If one showed up on my street , sh'ed get a bucket of water over her.

67

Ms Fiona,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 13:47:53

GP the sex providing escort is entering into a business transaction. They have every right to do so. But by and large they are in charge of their own activities, their own safety, and they get paid lots of money. And they are not likely to get murdered or have their kids taken into care or die from a heroin overdose.

68

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 13:54:02

#67 Fine, but if your water-based justice is to be fair, you will need also to keep a hose on hand to fire through the window of the oh-so-put-upon middle-class white males who are there just to satiate their natural urges.

69

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 13:59:36

68 In other words, give it an appearance of respectability and it becomes a transaction.
I happen to agree, this is a business, and the state has a right to demand taxes from these women as
they clearly have a regular income. Legalise it , clean it up, move it indoors for safety, health and social reasons. However here we have the crux of the matter. Mention to these women that they should start paying taxes , business rates for premises etc and they soon change their tune about legalisation and regulation. There were riots in both germany and holland when it was first introduced, and I suspect it would be similar here, but we the general public are being asked to feel sorry for these people.... you have to be joking.

70

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 14:02:01

#69 Not at all Duncan, nothing against middle class white men, salt of the earth. It's the Dealers I'd be going after not the buyers.

71

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 14:04:58

#71 Ah, you misunderstood me. I was disagreeing with you. You should go after the buyers with as much of not more force, since they are also criminals.

72

Ms Fiona,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 14:05:47

i am not arguing against prostitution per se. I suppose it is a legitimate choice if the prostitute male or female can make that rational choice. it is a free country after all. But what I am saying is that the vast majority of street prostitutes in Glasgow are drug addicts with extremely limited choices available to them who live desperately poor and sad lives. Maybe you think thats OK.. I dont.

73

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 14:35:26

#72 Oh your wrong I understood you perfectly, However I as I pointed out I blame the prostitutes at this juncture. Just because there is a market for your product does not mean you should sell it to all insundry.

74

Number 6,

Bouncing around europe. 15/10/2007 14:39:41

#73 Any kind of statistics to back up your claims that the vast majority of Glasgow prostitutes are :

1. Drug addicts .

2. Living desperately poor and sad lives.

3. Have extremely limited choices.

It would greatly advance your argument if you could prove that the "vast majority" were so disenfranchised.

75

watcher4,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 14:47:32

MSPs will have to go home to the wife now.

76

da punter,

15/10/2007 14:48:28

I have used probably hundereds of street girls over the years. This is my tupence worth.

The street girls are victims, the are desparate for their next 'hit' and would do virtually anything to get it . Us punters, either knowingly or unknowlingly, exploit this fact. Sending girls 'up the road' i.e. to jail, is virtually pointless, they might get a detox, put on a bit of weight but most will not address their core issues and re-offend on release. They need intensive help and support to solve their problems. The drugs debate is centering around heroin habits, but a large and growing perecentage of girls in Glasgow, inject coke or smoke crack as well/instead of 'kit'. Cocaine abuse is more physiclaly/ psycolgically damaging and a much hungrier monster than heroin.

I think there is a significant risk that this legislation will have the following undersiarble effects: increase indoor prostitution (which could increase sexualty slavery/people smuggleing) and if demand is reduced the girls will still need money for 'a hit' so other crimes will increases, principally theft.

The punters will always want it - it is impossible to remove all demand. Therefore, overall a quasi-legal regulated sex industry simlar to that in Amsterdam is, i believe, the only sensible way forward.

77

RedSwanie,

kerbside 15/10/2007 14:53:48

I am gobsmacked that I understand #3 GC's post and even find a bit of relevance in it. "What's up with that, dude?" Now I must go hae a cuppa and rest up.

78

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 14:54:52

#77 I was quite hopeful reading the first paragraphs of your post that we would get wisdom from someone with real experience here. But sadly you reverted to "the punters will always want it" as a reason to (quasi) legalise. There are punters who will always want a fight too; and those who will always want what you've got without paying for it. It's just not a justification.

79

Dancer,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 14:55:26

#3
I am sure Hillary’s hubie would be able to advise us in Scotland on Prostitution.

80

Kat's Meow,

15/10/2007 15:06:01

#21

IF HILLARY "THUNDERTHIGHS" CLINTON WEASELS HER WAY INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, I BELIEVE A CIVIL WAR IS ON OUR HANDS... THEN, I WOULD WISH FOR BANTER ABOUT PROSTITUTION!

81

Sambo,

The deep south 15/10/2007 15:13:15

The last time I did any "kerb-crawling" was when I came out of a pub one night knee walking drunk.

82

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 15:18:12

Duncan in Edinburgh - to be fair, da punter is only speaking his mind. His argument is that prostitution will never, ever, ever disappear as there will always be demand (and supply). His suggestion of a legalised solution is therefore valid.

Personally, my only 'experience' of the Leith prossers was driving slowly down a street off Leith Links looking for the side st where my friend's new flat was...getting longing stares from the dirty munters. I was kaking it, knowing I looked like a kerb crawler!!!

I'm never too sure about the whole legalisation thing though, as I sure as hell wouldn't like them near me. I hate the VIP saunas and nekid dance bars as well. Stick them in a warehouse on an industrial estate.

83

GrahamL,

15/10/2007 15:21:17

#73 Surely, if we were to legalise prostitution then those who are drug addicts etc will no longer have the choice of becoming a prostitute. Legal brothels would introduce some sort of standards, protection and guidance for the girls, and men would no longer be trawling the streets looking for women.

84

da punter,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 15:22:48

#79
What I am saying is that I accept that street prostitution in Scotland, in its current form, is exploitative of the girls - they have no alternatives. Also the new legislation is required to try and address the problems street prostitution causes.

However, overall I don’t believe paying for sex necessarily exploits the woman - as long as they have alternatives live choices is it their individual right to do what they want with there bodies. Therefore society does not have to criminalise the buying/selling of sex all its forms. Indeed it is unwise to do so as the law will be difficult to enforce

85

Ms Fiona,

Glasgow 15/10/2007 15:22:58

Well da Punta at least you are honest. Number 6 yeah there is a whole host of empirical evidence look it up yourself I can't be bothered. Anyone who knows anything about the problem of prostitution in Glasgow will tell you the same thing, as I said earlier I dont lnow about Edinburgh so I cant comment it may be different there. I would just like to see them getting some help to come out of what is a dreadful life and I dont apologise for that. If that means some of you guys may need to charm your way into bed instead of just paying for it then theres some of you may need a bit of practise I reckon. Anyway adios.

86

Märiö Antoinette,

15/10/2007 15:23:23

Duncan , how much would i have to give you to blow me ?

Honestly , its a serious question and nothing personal.

We all have a price.

87

Märiö Antoinette,

15/10/2007 15:24:53

Legalisation of brothels(as edinburgh has) is the way forward, outlaw ALL street prostitution.

88

Faye,

15/10/2007 15:31:25

A better idea is to have a web cam site so wives can view it and see the family car being trawled around town in known red light districts.

Kerb crawlers don't care. They use the family car, some with distinctive colours and car registrations which are often seen later. driven by the wife, usually dropping off the kids at Fee Paying School.

Some male employees are so brazen they use the company van or vehicle giving the company some unwanted advertising.

For women who are strangers in town, waiting for girlfriends, they too are sometimes approached either by the kerb crawlers or the prostitutes who threaten other women to move off "their patch".

It is time to legalise this 'old business' and get the pimps and prostitutes to pay taxes.

For the kerb crawlers, legalising this game should protect their wife from Aids and whatever other diseases that maybe passed on by 'secretive' street liasions.

89

Miss H,

15/10/2007 15:33:33

55 Bruce’s Spider

I never know what to make of the argument that legalising prostitution will somehow lessen the incidence of sexual crimes. That has not been demonstrated in countries where this has happened.

If the theory behind it is that rape is caused purely by sexual frustration then the theory is just plain wrong. Rape is a hate crime.

I think it is equally wrong to assume that the men who go to prostitutes are motivated purely by sexual frustration. This is 2007, not Victorian days. There are plenty of swingers clubs and fetish clubs catering for every taste – nobody actually has to ‘pay for it’ these days. The motivation to use prostitutes is therefore more complex.

There may be a relationship with other sex crimes in the sense that men who use prostitutes may also be more inclined to commit other sexual offences like rape. I don’t really know enough about it to judge exactly how close that relationship is.

But the theory that by catering to men who might otherwise rape, prostitutes are doing ‘decent’ men and women a favour has always seemed extremely indecent to me. It’s a bit like sacrificing Fay Wray to King Kong. Keep the beast happy so that the villagers don’t suffer. I do not think that is either desirable or necessary.

Also worth pointing out that it is not only women and girls involved in prostitution, male prostitution also exists.

Also Andy 61 men are not being criminalised for looking for consensual sex - otherwise every bloke entering a nightclub would be getting charged. It is kerb crawling that has been criminalised, not chatting up women!

If men don't want the bother of having to chat up a woman and take her out to dinner, if you just want meaningless anonymous sex then join a swingers club. That way you know it definitely is consensual.

90

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 15:34:29

87 - Mario - I suspect Duncan is particularly cheap - about £1.10 and a bag of penny chews (so long as there are sour plumes!).

91

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 15:36:00

#87 If I may quote Brian's mum in Life of Brian:

"Not a personal question? How much more personal can you get? Now p*** off!"

The notion that we all have a price is tangential to the issue at hand.

And I don't do tongues.

92

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 15:37:26

#90 Abso-bloody-lutely. Well said.

93

Miss H,

15/10/2007 15:37:27

92

The notion that we all have a price is also crap.

94

AL.,

Lothians 15/10/2007 15:40:25

#89 - Are the punters so brazen or are they so desperate? They too may be addicts but of sex rather than drugs.
Exactly who is exploiting who here?
Maybe instead of arresting them the police should hand them leaflets on how to deal with their problem or open a punter help centre in the area.
I still say take away the temptation and the problem will disappear.

95

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 15:41:49

#85 da punter - a bit contradictory, no? You agree that street prostitution does exploit the women, but you think that on balance it doesn't, as they should have the right to do what they want?

Don't you think that 99.9% of these women don't want to be out there? Perhaps 0.01% who aren't addicted or have serious psychological problems/abusive histories are able to make this 'lifestyle/working' choice, but they are almost certainly extreme exceptions.

96

Faye,

15/10/2007 15:42:45

Heaven knows how many rapes go unreported in those countries that kill female babies because the baby isn't a male.

Maybe Hilary Clinton has the motivation to tackle that once she gets voted in.

97

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 15:43:31

#91 I resemble that comment!

98

tyson,

kerbside in "naptowne 15/10/2007 15:47:36

It should be legal. Brothels that are regulated, taxed and (relativley) disease free could be a much safer source of income for willing adults. No need for pimps who batten off of "their" stable of "girls".

99

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 15:49:16

#98 ;-)

100

T. MacIntosh,

Toronto 15/10/2007 16:01:59

Good Stuff,Holyrood.
What might come next,after Johnny founds out a routinely infected,theft prone drug addict two car garage will cost an extra thousand pounds and a pedigree is that Johnny finds her after he plucks up a bit of guts and goes the usual route to obtain his desires.It's a lot cheaper and the fun usually lasts longer.
The downside of the rule is the hookers,pimps and dope runners get pushed underground to back alleys,apartments,wherever they can hide,but then the cops can isolate them away from the general population which makes supply lines easier to find.Not much of a downside really,since the approach is right,cut their supplies and they whither on the vine.Get at the criminal proceeds and soon they are out of business.

101

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 15/10/2007 16:02:16

In my opinion, and that's all it is, prostitution should be legalised, not decriminalised.

Just like the Abortion Act, it will save lives, not take lives (please don't argue that aboriton is murder blah blah, we are not here to argue that).

The Abortion Act stopped back street abortions.
The Prostitution Act will stop back street prostitution.

Women need the protection and protection primarily from predatory men, not themselves.

102

Faye,

15/10/2007 16:03:12

#95 Al.

When a prostitute runs up to another woman crying, because she has just been attacked by a guy who molested her and, when other people try to help her, the distraught prostitute becomes so terrified that she jumps into a taxi to escape, is it any wonder that other woman walking home or waiting to catch a bus become concerned about kerb crawlers and men who constantly trawl around town with only one thing on their mind?

Such men are not desperate, they need to be locked up.

He certainly fled when other people shouted at him.

What a yellow belly coward.

103

AL.,

Lothians 15/10/2007 16:19:07

Yes Faye thats exactly why the streets should be cleared of prostitutes and of the types of people they attract.
What you wrote sounds awful but not surprising.
Where were all the undercover police when this happened? On the phone to the DVLA?

104

Märiö Antoinette,

15/10/2007 16:25:02

Miss H, if is was so inclined I bet i could badger you from behind for a few million, you would be a fool to say otherwise.

Duncan , sorry that was below the belt :P

105

Märiö Antoinette,

15/10/2007 16:26:16

97 Faye , I dont think HIlary Clinton would have much jurisdiction in the country in question.

106

Märiö Antoinette,

15/10/2007 16:30:36

sorry , childish i know , I just raised it to prove that we are all whores.

We ARE. Hands up who is enjoying their job so much that they dont spend all day on the internet.

GOod night.

107

morris,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 16:50:27

15

Eric


Presumably it will be claimed back as a legitmate expense,so we should not have long to wait!

108

thomas,

midlothian 15/10/2007 16:58:18

prostitution has to be made legal. this will be the only way to control the situation re;drug taking -violence against women-and the problems created by an illegal act being committed. the act itself is not illegal. the people involved may be. the men that use prostitutes, need to be sure these women are medically checked on a regular basis. the women that sell their bodies need to be made safe, that is the governments first and constant care.
i do not accept that this is a good way for a female to earn a living and feed her children. if needs must then a female will do this to feed her children and or feed her habit, either way the females of our society need protection against stupid men who are responsible for their situation. the females position in society needs to be upgraded.at times we cannot live with them, but we sure as hell cannot live without them.

109

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA vote Hillary Clinton.. ..for US pres 15/10/2007 17:04:27

WHY or WHO had my #3 post removed ?

Did it contravene the terms and conditions of this thread?

Or is so-called free speech censored again?

GC

110

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 15/10/2007 17:21:02

The men who go to prossies who are then asked to dress up as "school kids" need to be captured, the idea of a grown man wanting to act out fantasies on a prossie dressed as a school kid is sickening

111

I wonder,

Perth 15/10/2007 17:23:24

Ross Harper Ex-president of the Law Society will sort things out at the Cala Hotel with his slippers and PF Ramjet MacFarlane will see things go according to LAW.

112

GP,

15/10/2007 17:28:25

102# very sensible al always Dave.
105# never a few million you would be surprised I bet

113

,

15/10/2007 17:38:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1058467, Article id was mapped to record!
114

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 17:42:55

#110 - Galactic Gimp - it's because you are a total fud. You are, indeed, a bigger fud than sweaty betty mcgrinder of salamander place fame.

115

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 17:57:09

#114 Never mind prostitution, you have just presented a most convincing argument for abortion. Your own.

116

Faye,

15/10/2007 17:57:47

What male couldn't cope with the comments on post 3 or was it some feminist female with a thing about men?

It wasn't wrong or offensive. It was rather amusing and truthful.

Own up. Who did it?

Has the yellow belly kerb crawler moved on to the Scootsman board?

Was it you Genius?

117

Faye,

15/10/2007 18:05:39

#114 You are confused. This is nothing to do with the left.

Your message is a mix of left and right, but more looney right.

The political left care about society and a better world for all.

What do looney Right stand for?

Winner takes all?

As one decent black woman suffering from the after effects of Katrina said:

"Ah earn ma money honest, do you?"

Now do you or do you like to stamp on people's faces on the way up?

118

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 15/10/2007 18:28:12

Sometimes I get it right GP @113

114

I think John Ress wants his book back.

Galactic Bawjaw

You are a class A fud. The drugs that you take have had thier effect, you are regressing into the primordial soup of dangerous and blinkered ramblings. You belong in Viz, not here, or you should become editor of the Sun.

119

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 15/10/2007 18:40:59

-- I hate Rangers it doesn't mean I'm going to go out and rape Ally Mc Coist.

It certainly does.

Meanwhile some folk have a "pathalogical hatred" of the jam tarts.

The ex ****ship aka Royal Yacht should be renamed "Dora Noyce" , fly the sexfam flag and be open 24 hoors to all bone fide mariners.

120

The Genius,,

15/10/2007 19:36:22

Faye - no, I have a rule to never report anyone as I prefer freedom of speech. Promise! However, GC is a total fanny.

120 - yok... :D

121

John ress's cookbook,

15/10/2007 20:25:52

116 Such wit Duncan did you think that up all on your own. Try to expand on it.

118 I'm not confused at all Faye, looney left judges have been releasing rapists and the pervert who raped a wee ten year old lassie got 2 years, he would serve one, no confusion at all. He should be shot or hung.

Yesterday Ms Fiona was telling us how the spongers arriving were all nice people and that we had a glut of empty houses in Glasgow.

I was racist for condemning the Eastern Europeans and their prostitution rackets in a different thread and now she saying how they are treating women as slaves, christ the looney left like bottle brown can't keep the same tune for a whole day.

From the very outset of this discussion one poster hit it all on the head.

IT IS MORE ABOUT THE FINES, ANOTHER STEALTH TAX FROM LABOUR.

There is no opportunity they won't grasp at to steal money, they are the biggest prostitutes, 650 handjobs all in one big room.

122

wisdom,

Edinburgh 15/10/2007 20:52:35

Street prostitution is socially undesirable and drug addicts who prostitue themselves to feed a habit need help and protection as do under age girls and those illegally imported for prostitution.The professional prostitute is a different case alltogether.The law should not interfere in any private arrangement or agreement which is made between a prostitute and her client .

123

surj36,

london 15/10/2007 21:20:34

As we all know that no way we are going to get rid of prostitutes from any ever, it is time we have proper brothels, controlled by Government, where the ladies of pleasure can also be, checked for any venereal diseases on regular biases.

124

Isabel,

15/10/2007 21:21:15

Prostitution is not going to go away so legalising the sex trade and having properly run brothels in red light areas is the way forward. The girls would be safer and the general public would feel more comfortable if they didn't have prostitutes and kerb crawlers in their areas.

Different things drive women, and men, into prostitution and these are issues that need attention.

125

Charlie Ferrier,

New Zealand 15/10/2007 23:08:06

Prostitution is never ever going to be controlled.

Firstly society has a very Victorian attitude to it which is only recent compared to the existence of man and the profession.

Secondly trying to outlaw it in any form will put in in the control of even more hardened criminals as it is now a riskier proposition.

Thirdly - take a look at New Zealand and the laws and methods they are using to regulate it.

Its the old meely mouthed presbaterian attitude thats wrong

126

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/10/2007 23:24:57

#122 Okay, here's a short expansion.

Someone who thinks that prostitution is a necessary outlet for men who would otherwise be raping women is beneath contempt. Someone who is so filled with hate that he is prepared to condemn people on the basis of their race is worthy of condemnation himself. And someone who uses the argument that the only women who oppose pornography are ugly women is clearly an inadequate, frustrated and worthless person.

You represent the worst you can be, and yet you manage to be self-righteous about it. The world would be a better place without people like you in it.

Is that the sort of thing you were after?

127

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA vote Hillary Clinton.. ..for US pres 15/10/2007 23:33:13

115. The Genius, / 6:42pm 15 Oct 2007.

U have poof Galactic id a FUD

Show me de poof

U say velly bad tings

Why u say dat.

Me say Prostutions disappear

When males get cull in
latio of 1:8

1 male to 8 female

Alto no vors wars
Male be so tired he no want fight.

Female velly happy
not put up with males .

GC is agood plan
BUt u stop bad wods abut galActic


GC

128

molu kikes,

basel 16/10/2007 07:00:20

well year by year they said again draconian revival of their ancient scootiush home decent ,., so loathing like advertising sex vender like grand antique of which to the scottish society was very presky,.,,., of seeing hit and run and indecency within their homestead,., ,.. perhaps are scottish perverted to thomas crowell dedicated to GOD ,.,.why are all them so acolyte to more like victor ,., are they really benedicton to the what the church of england prohibit .,,,,,,,,,,,

129

John ress's cookbook,

16/10/2007 11:38:00

127 Ah poor deluded Duncan, tut tut one really should get out more. My my we have the racism card played where race is not even mentioned, oh one does expect it from the looney tunes.

Prostitution will not vanish because some loopy lou brings in a fine for standing in the street.

One of the goods points is that prostitution prevents some perverts from going out to rape some innocent woman, but that's not good enough for Dull Dunc because your myopically viewing napper can't comprehend reality.

Most woman who scream the sexist diatribes ARE NEARLY always big fat donkeys with left wing lesbian leanings and wearing their doc martins and dungarees.

Ah Duncan you can rant on darling but we just laugh at such sadness of people with no life.

Maybe you should question your idiotic labour scum government who are now advocating even lesser sentences for rapists. So Duncan the Dullard how does cutting the deterrent for rapists help women.

If women are consenting to sell their body then it's got sod all to do with you or me, if they reach a consent with a man on cash for sex then it's sod all to do with you, if she has no morals then it's sod all to do with you, get the idea.

You arses think you should dictate your pathetic brussel sprout extistence on the world, take yer idiotic ideals and yer looney left lesbian friends and bugger off and give the world peace fae yer moronic witterings.

130

Miss H,

16/10/2007 16:38:38

130.

You need therapy. Seriously.


 

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